EVIDENCE

Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security NUMBER 129 1st SESSION 44th PARLIAMENT Thursday, November 7, 2024 Le jeudi 7 novembre 2024 Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security CANADA [Recorded by Electronic Apparatus] EVIDENCE November 7, 2024 Committee NUMBER 129 NUMBER 129 NUMÉRO 129 129 07 11 2024 2024/11/07 16:00:00 House Of Commons Comité permanent de la sécurité publique et nationale Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security SECU Chair Mr. Iqwinder Gaheer 1 44

(1600) [ English ]

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho (Kildonan—St. Paul, CPC)) :

I call this meeting to order. Welcome to meeting number 129 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security. Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. I'd like to remind participants to please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. All comments should be addressed through the chair. Members, please raise your hand if you wish to speak, whether participating in person or via Zoom. The clerk and I will manage the speaking order as best we can.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on September 19, 2024, the committee is resuming its study of Russian interference and disinformation campaigns in Canada. I would like to welcome our witnesses. As an individual, we have David Pugliese, a journalist from the Ottawa Citizen. From the Canadian Association of Journalists, we have president Brent Jolly. I would now like to invite both of you to make opening statements of up to five minutes. We'll start with Mr. Pugliese, Mr. Pugliese, take it away.

Mr. David Pugliese (Journalist, Ottawa Citizen, As an Individual) :

Thank you, Madam Chair, for granting me the opportunity to speak to you. I had no intention of appearing before this committee, but when my reputation and profession were attacked, I felt compelled to offer some truth and balance to your discussion. On October 24, 2024, former Conservative cabinet minister Chris Alexander came before this committee and accused me of being a traitor to my country. Hiding behind a cloak of parliamentary privilege, he falsely claimed that I had been recruited as a Russian spy in the 1980s and suggested that I am still working as a Russian agent.

His preposterous claims were based on several pieces of paper he told you had been examined by experts around the world. Astonishingly, not one MP on the committee raised a single critical question about these explosive allegations involving a veteran Canadian journalist with a 40-year track record. It is the height of irony that a committee studying disinformation would in fact propagate it. The records presented to you by Mr. Alexander are replete with factual errors and falsehoods. The records claim I was a permanent resident of Ottawa when the Russians supposedly decided to examine my background.

I was not even living in Ottawa at the time cited in the record tabled by Mr. Alexander. Mr. Alexander testified that the files show I was working at my first job at the Ottawa Citizen throughout the 1980s. That is also false. Although Mr. Alexander claimed there are actual studies authenticating his assertions, nothing was provided to this committee, and no one asked for them. Mr. Alexander's fabricated claims are not only outlandish, but dangerous to my family. There are now calls that I be executed or tortured and that my family be deported.

In short, this committee effectively played host to a character assassination without authenticating any of the allegations. In my line of work, no credible journalist in this country would ever publish such wild, damaging allegations based on flimsy assertions. If Mr. Alexander's documents are real, at best, this suggests the Russians looked at my background, which was a common occurrence for journalists, academics and politicians during the Cold War. How many other Canadians are on this list? Mr.

Alexander, in his presentation to the committee, suggested that my journalism helps the Russians and divides Canadians, yet nothing is further from the truth. Over the last four decades, I've exposed financial wrongdoing at National Defence, sexual assault in the Canadian Armed Forces and bungled military procurements that put our troops at risk. My award-winning articles have helped countless Canadian veterans and military personnel, and I've pushed for accountability, transparency and truthfulness.

However, I know that when journalists like me expose the wrongdoing of governments and institutions, it can be uncomfortable for decision-makers. As we learned in the aftermath of this committee, the claim that I was a Russian asset has been circulated for several years by Canadian Forces leaders. That doesn't come as a surprise to me. Military public affairs officers have acknowledged that during my time at the Ottawa Citizen, there have been no fewer than three attempts by senior DND officials to convince my employer to remove me from the defence beat.

In 2013, the National Post reported that I was put under military police investigation after a senior official in the defence minister's office falsely claimed I published classified information. After a two-month investigation, military police concluded that the data I had published was actually taken from a U.S. Navy press release. Once again, there are ridiculous claims being made by those who are uncomfortable with fact-based journalism, and my journalism in particular. The job of a journalist is to hold the powerful to account, and I will continue doing so.

In my view, Canada appears to be entering a dangerous new era. Labelling people who don't follow the approved government narrative as an enemy of this country is slanderous and irresponsible. Surely, a parliamentary committee should embrace higher standards when it comes to protecting the reputations of its citizens. While these allegations were made about me personally, there is little doubt that this was an attack on credible journalism at a time when we need it the most. Journalism is a core pillar of our democracy, protecting public interest. I am a proud Canadian.

I am proud of my journalism career, and I intend to keep holding governments to account. Thank you, Madam Chair.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

Thank you for your remarks, Mr. Pugliese. I now invite Mr. Jolly to make an opening statement of up to five minutes.

Mr. Brent Jolly (President, Canadian Association of Journalists) :

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Thank you, all, for agreeing to hear me today and for the opportunity to address the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security. While I wholeheartedly endorse the study this committee is undertaking to look into Russian disinformation and interference campaigns in Canada, that's not exclusively the reason I am here today.

I'm joining you here today as the president of the Canadian Association of Journalists, which is an organization that has existed since 1978—so, more than 45 years—to represent the interests of journalists, to undertake advocacy and to support the public's right to know. I'm here because of the allegations that were levied against Mr. Pugliese in the October 24 meeting by Mr. Alexander. As David has noted, Mr. Alexander declared, under the guise of parliamentary privilege, I might add, that David has been a paid agent of the KGB since the 1980s.

It is absolutely astonishing to me that no member of this committee posed questions about or challenged these patently absurd claims when they were tabled. On the evening of October 24, the Canadian Association of Journalists issued a public statement to our more than 22,000 Twitter followers, and we also represent the interests of more than 1,000 journalists across the country. The CAJ statement read:

The CAJ wholeheartedly denounces the ridiculous accusations made against @davidpugliese today.

It's a sad irony these comments were made in a meeting examining disinformation campaigns. These claims are dangerous & designed to undermine the credibility of journalists. Period.

I'm happy to be here today sitting shoulder to shoulder with David to call out these accusations and allegations that are nothing more, in my view, than a McCarthyesque smear job. For over 40 years, David has built a reputation as a reporter who has exposed untold levels of corruption in Canada.

He has won multiple awards, not just from the Canadian Association of Journalists but also from the National Newspaper Awards, where I also sit as a governor, and for his coverage on issues as diverse as defence issues and looking into and investigating the government and security agencies that are attempting to stifle free speech and legitimate protests. The function of journalists is to make sure that taxpayers know how public dollars are being spent. Frankly, our Constitution upholds the role that journalists play in serving our democracy. However, Mr.

Pugliese has been tarnished unnecessarily and is guilty of nothing more than being a journalist. He is a habitual thorn in the side of those in power, but that's just him doing his job. The accusations you have heard from Mr. Alexander in this committee are dumbfounding and dangerous. They are, regrettably, becoming the new normal. Weaponized disinformation campaigns put journalists in the veritable crosshairs. Rather than question, for example, the accuracy of facts reported in a story, domestic and transnational interests now attack a journalist's credibility.

That's because if you can't refute the truth, then the next best action is to attack the messenger. These kinds of attacks are isolating and psychologically taxing. In a time when newsrooms have thinner and thinner resources or, worse, when you're a freelancer who doesn't have an affiliation to a newsroom, these kinds of statements and ridiculous allegations send a collective chill across the free expression landscape. I think our foreign adversaries, including Russia, will cheer in collective celebration when we begin to suspect each other.

Disinformation attacks the very foundations of our democracy and the individuals who serve in it, and that includes journalists. I hope that members of this committee will carefully reflect on how this close-to-home example of a disinformation campaign can strike. Disinformation changes lives and damages reputations, all in the stroke of a pen. It's for that reason that I hope the mindless maligning of Mr. Pugliese will not go unnoticed in the final draft of this committee's report. We'll be watching, and we look forward to reading it in the near future. Thank you.

(1605) The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

Thank you very much for your remarks. We will now start our rounds of questions. Each member will have six minutes. Mr. Shipley, you're up first.

Mr. Doug Shipley (Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, CPC) :

Thank you, Chair, and a sincere thank you to both witnesses for being here today. It's an honour and a pleasure to have you both here. I always believe that in any situation, everybody has the right to come and defend themselves and speak the truth, so thank you both. I'm going to speak a bit before I get into a few questions. You brought up some very good points. I have been an MP for five years now, and I have sat on a few committees. Mainly I've been on public safety, but I've also sat on other ones.

Witnesses come in to our meetings all the time, and they give us their sides of the stories, or the information they believe in. This has put us in quite an interesting position, and it is always going to make me think, going forward, what's real and what's not real. It's very interesting—and please don't take this glibly—in a study about disinformation that this has taken place. I have obviously spent some time reflecting on that. I find that a little ironic. Mr.

Pugliese, before we get into some questions, if there's any good that can come from this—obviously, you've been through a tough time—it is that maybe our eyes will be a bit more open to disinformation, and that will be part of our study and our remarks going forward. I do have some questions, though, and I'll start with Mr. Pugliese.

(1610) Obviously, this has been a very tough time for you. I listened to your words very intently. You did mention that this has had some effect on you and your family, and I want to say that my feelings go out to you and your family. How have these allegations affected you and your family?

Mr. David Pugliese :

I'm not going to get into too much of that, if that's okay. I mean, we have increased security around the house, so there has been a component of that just to protect the kids. As far as direct impact goes, there is that. There has been a lot of support that I've received and, ironically, now my email inbox is full of tips from Canadian Forces personnel about wrongdoing that they want me to investigate, so I guess I've got my work cut out for many months to come. However, I would prefer not to get into some of the security aspects, please.

Mr. Doug Shipley :

I respect that. I wasn't looking for what you've done as much as I was looking for maybe how much it had affected your family. What I'm trying to do here is draw a picture. Our words are important, and the words that witnesses say are important. I was just trying to draw a picture of how much this has affected you and your family but not get into specifics as to security around your family. I understand that. Mr. Pugliese, here's another question. Since we are studying Russian disinformation, do you have any thoughts on how the government can address Russia's use of disinformation and information manipulation?

Obviously, you're living through it right now. Maybe you can give us your opinion on that.

Mr. David Pugliese :

I think these committees have to be very careful about looking at the evidence that's being presented. In December 2023, I covered a Senate fisheries committee meeting, and I watched a so-called disinformation expert who works for the Macdonald-Laurier Institute, which Mr. Alexander works for, and this individual made a link between the Russians and Vladimir Putin and Ryan Reynolds, the Canadian actor. Putin and the Russians have put out disinformation about the Canadian seal hunt. Ryan Reynolds is an animal activist, and he has put out a documentary about the Canadian seal hunt, which wasn't complimentary.

I watched this committee as this disinformation expert linked Ryan Reynolds and Putin together. I came away from that.... Words, as a committee member has mentioned, are very important. If Ryan Reynolds can be linked to the Russians and Russian disinformation, then no Canadian will be safe from any such smears.

Mr. Doug Shipley :

Thank you for that. Mr. Jolly, I would like to ask you a question. You mentioned your organization was started in 1978, which was more than 45 years ago. Have you ever seen a case like this in journalism? How has your association reacted to it, or what have you done to prevent the disinformation side of it going forward for your journalists?

Mr. Brent Jolly :

This is quite different in its own right, the fact that it was declared, that it was asserted by a former cabinet minister in a standing committee of a democratically operated organization. I think this is something that really takes the cake. However, I think we also need to be really aware of the challenges that journalists are facing out in the field every day in covering protests and injunction zones. We've seen photojournalists who are having their access restricted when they're trying to go out and cover wildfires in B.C. or in Alberta. These are all part and parcel....

This is part of the shrinking press freedom environment that we're seeing. I think what Mr. Pugliese has experienced is certainly part and parcel of it, but it does give me a sense of exasperation, the degree to which these accusations were made, again, within the context of a committee. I think it was a really bad look.

(1615) The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

Thank you. The time is up. Now we'll go to Ms. O'Connell for six minutes, please.

Ms. Jennifer O'Connell (Pickering—Uxbridge, Lib.) :

Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you both for being here today. I want to start out with my perspective. I think, Mr. Jolly, you said in your opening statement that it was dumbfounding and dangerous, and I don't disagree. What's important to know, however, is that we don't see in advance what a witness might say. In fact, speaking for myself, as the testimony was happening, Mr. Alexander was referring to documents. I know that we were turning to each other and saying, “What documents?” Then, when we looked, I noticed that, on the committee day, we had received them at around 12:30, I believe—I can clarify that.

On a given sitting day, I'm sure you can appreciate that I had not, and I think a number of our colleagues had not.... In that testimony, Mr. Alexander kept referring to “Stuart”, and I remember thinking that I needed to look at these documents. I'm not downplaying anything, but I want you to know that I think we were equally confused and did not understand the connection. Mr. Bezan asked specific questions that then named you and that were eventually.... When I got home and was able to go through and read all of the documents, I saw that. This is not to make an excuse.

It's just to outline the timeline from our perspective because I, too, was very confused about what was actually being alleged. From my perspective—and I can't speak for all colleagues—we had not seen it in advance. I agree with the testimony of both of you with regard to a study on Russian disinformation. Our intention on this committee is certainly not to allow or purport the continuation of it. I just want to acknowledge that—again, not to dismiss the very real concerns but to paint a little bit of a picture of some of that same dumbfounding confusion that we were experiencing in real time.

I certainly was experiencing it in real time, trying to get my eyes on those documents as we were also preparing questions while witnesses were sitting there. Other colleagues can certainly speak to their experiences. However, just on that, you've mentioned, Mr. Pugliese, the extreme concern, the dangerous situation for your family and the increased security. I'm deeply sorry that you are experiencing that. That was one of my questions, but I want to ask another question. In Mr.

Alexander's opening remarks, he said, “Previous efforts to expose this journalist's long-running covert ties to Moscow have resulted in attempts to intimidate current and former Canadian parliamentarians, including my former colleague James Bezan as well as Canadian Army officials.” Are you aware of any of those efforts? Again, this testimony.... I've served on a committee with Mr. Bezan, on the national defence committee. I have never heard these accusations. Do you have any idea where that is coming from or why this was presented that day?

Mr. David Pugliese :

Madam Chair, when I heard that, I thought we were entering into a territory of unhinged testimony. I couldn't believe it. I don't know Mr. Bezan . He has used information from my articles and raised it in the House of Commons to hold the government to account, which is fine. In 2018, I wrote an article, in fact, supporting Mr. Bezan when a senior Canadian Forces public affairs officer by the name of Colonel Jay Janzen was dictating to Mr. Bezan on social media what he should, as a parliamentarian, ask. I did an

article quoting Mr. Bezan, that this isn't a proper, that parliamentarians shouldn't be told what they can be asking in Parliament. When I heard that, I was just flabbergasted. It's crazy. I don't want to get into too many details about where I live now, but I don't live in Ottawa. I live 5,000 miles away. I've never intimidated Mr. Bezan or any Canadian Forces officer. I don't know what that is about.

(1620) Ms. Jennifer O'Connell :

Thank you. I didn't understand, and like I said, most of the testimony referred to the journalist as “Stuart”, and it wasn't until later that we were even putting those pieces together. Just for the record, have you ever published a story where the Kremlin was your source? I'm sorry, but I want the opportunity on the record.

Mr. David Pugliese :

Madam Chair, no, I have never published a story where the Kremlin was my source. I have done one interview with the spokesman from the Russian embassy who was given the boot from Canada, and that was published. Most of my sources are Canadian Forces records that I acquire through the access to information law, Canadian Forces statements and Canadian Forces personnel who usually come to me for help because they're getting, for want of a better word, jerked around by the chain of command. If you follow most of my stories, you'll see those are stories that I do a lot of.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

Thank you, Mr. Pugliese.

Ms. Jennifer O'Connell :

Thank you. Again, in fairness, I wasn't saying it to promote that.

Mr. David Pugliese :

Sure.

Ms. Jennifer O'Connell :

I wanted you to have the opportunity on the record to address that.

Mr. David Pugliese :

Thank you, Madam Chair.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

Thank you, Ms. O'Connell. Thank you, Mr. Pugliese. It's over to Ms. Michaud for six minutes, please. Go ahead.

[ Translation ]

Ms. Kristina Michaud (Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, BQ) :

Thank you, Madam Chair. Mr. Pugliese, like Ms. O'Connell, I understand that you are confused by the fact that, when this happened on October 24, no committee member seemed to stand up for you or question Mr. Alexander's comments. I was trying to understand what was going on, and I may not have understood the seriousness of the allegations. I also didn't have access to the documents. However, on our end, we were dealing with a former minister who now works for a credible organization, so he's a fairly credible individual who presented allegations and seemed to have proof. In short, it was something new.

I even wondered, at the time it happened, if it was something already known that I didn't know about. I didn't know you. So the situation is a bit unique. I'm glad the committee is giving you the opportunity to tell your side of the story and set the record straight, because the accusations that have been levelled at you are indeed quite serious. The Global News network seems to have been looking at this in consultation with experts. According to them, the documents that were presented by Mr. Alexander seem legitimate.

However, that doesn't suggest that you would be a Russian spy or that you would work for Russia, but perhaps the KGB would simply have an eye on you, as it had an eye on a number of people a few years ago, likely journalists or persons of interest in Canada. So when we see the analysis of these people, it doesn't show that he did anything, but perhaps the KGB had an interest in that person. Could you tell us why you think the KGB would have been interested in you?

[ English ]

Mr. David Pugliese :

First of all, when Global took a look at the documents, their experts pointed out they don't show anything. They don't show that I received any money or anything of the sort that Mr. Alexander claimed. What the Soviets did during the 1980s was look at all kinds of individuals: journalists, politicians, as I mentioned, academics. I found it interesting that whoever wrote those documents up was not aware of me, because on a lot of the dates where I was supposed to be in Ottawa, I wasn't. They described me as a “leftist activist”. Well, throughout the 1980s I was working for military publications.

I was a correspondent for a Washington publication called the Armed Forces Journal, which is produced for the U.S. Army. We were writing stories about how to nuke the Soviets off the face of the earth, how to get more weapons, the need for NATO expansion, that type of thing. That wouldn't appear to me as someone who's a leftist activist. These documents, I don't know where they came from. Maybe you should ask Mr. Alexander. He said they came from Ukraine. He didn't give specifics. Why would the Soviets look at me?

If they did, I think that would just be standard operating procedure for most journalists during the Cold War, for most academics and for most politicians.

(1625) [ Translation ]

Ms. Kristina Michaud :

Thank you. As my colleagues have mentioned before me, it's quite ironic that these allegations are being made during a study on Russian disinformation in Canada. What do you think Mr. Alexander has to gain by pointing a finger at you in this way and presenting so-called evidence? Why do you think he targeted you?

[ English ]

Mr. David Pugliese :

I don't know what was going through Mr. Alexander's brain. I covered Mr. Alexander before on the F-35 fighter jet file when he was on that. I covered the Afghan war, which he was kind of a lead on. I exposed a lot of stories about corruption in the Afghan National Army. I exposed the existence of a child sex ring among Afghan national security forces where they would sell children. I have a reputation, and I'm proud of it, of being a journalist who does journalism. Again, I can't speak to Mr. Alexander's motives. I have covered him in the past.

[ Translation ]

Ms. Kristina Michaud :

Alex Cosh published an open letter on November 5 to advocate on your behalf. It was signed by many journalists and people in the field. It asks Mr. Alexander to provide evidence of what he's alleging or to apologize publicly. Have you had any contact with Mr. Alexander since—

[ English ]

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

Madam Michaud, I apologize for interrupting. Perhaps you can ask that in the next round. Your time is up. Thank you.

[ Translation ]

Ms. Kristina Michaud :

Thank you.

[ English ]

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

Mr. MacGregor, you have six minutes, please.

Mr. Alistair MacGregor (Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, NDP) :

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I welcome both of you to our committee. Wow. October 24 was quite the meeting for me to miss that day. Honestly, like Ms. O'Connell said, we had no idea this kind of testimony was going to come forward. We actually received the documents from Mr. Alexander in an email at 12:21 p.m., and the committee started at 3:46 p.m. that day. I have many years of experience at committee. In my experience, when a witness is both handing in documents and testifying, the documents can provide a good reference point, but I tend to put more weight on the testimony.

My practice is that, if we are going to quote extensively or use a witness's particular information given at a committee during the drafting phase, those are always helpful to come back to. My staff person was giving me updates from the committee and was describing in real terms how sideways it suddenly went with Mr. Alexander's testimony. We don't have much experience with someone coming before a committee where they are protected by parliamentary privilege and just going after someone in the way that he did. Mr.

Pugliese, we want to afford you the same parliamentary protection and give you the time and space here at this public committee that Mr. Alexander was afforded. Mr. Alexander did say in his statements that he had shared these documents with national security authorities in Canada. Outside of October 24, was this the first time you had heard about this? Have you ever had someone in an official position in Canada contact you about these documents?

(1630) Mr. David Pugliese :

Madam Chair, no. I have never been visited by any security personnel. I've never been visited by CSIS, RCMP, whatever agencies there are. I've had a long association with the Canadian Forces. For instance, I have gone overseas on multiple occasions with Canadian special forces on an exclusive basis. You can be sure they have taken a close look at my background before they allow me access to some of the sensitive things they do, so to answer your question, no, no one has. I haven't heard anything.

Mr. Alistair MacGregor :

To borrow the line of questioning from my colleague Ms. Michaud, do you have any further thoughts on just what you think might have prompted Mr. Alexander to go down this road? Can you search your memory for any way that you might have crossed paths that affected him personally? I know that as parliamentarians it's the nature of the job to sometimes feel the rough edge of the press. That's a normal part of public service, but....

Mr. David Pugliese :

Madam Chair, what struck me is that Mr. Alexander seemed very upset by my journalism. He's upset that I report about these procurements that go off-line. For me, that's just reporting on where our tax dollars are going, so I don't understand what that big issue is. I'll give you an example of some of the things that people have accused me of doing—like Russian disinformation. Last year, Canadian Forces were training Ukrainian troops in Poland and the Canadian troops were not getting paid their allowances for their food. That was causing problems back home in the families, because there's less money.

The spouses of these soldiers approached me, told me the story and asked me if I could write a story. I wrote a story. It was brought up in the House of Commons, and a week and a half later, these soldiers started getting their pay, but this appears to be.... Then I started getting emails saying, “You're embarrassing Canada. You're helping the Russians. This is Russian disinformation.” My response to this is in reporting on this type of thing. It's not Russian disinformation. If you don't want the Russians to use this information, then pay the soldiers properly. That is the issue here.

Not everything is Russian disinformation because it might embarrass the Canadian Forces or the government of the day, and the sense I got from him, he seemed very perturbed about my reporting.

Mr. Alistair MacGregor :

In speaking of Russian disinformation, you've probably heard that in our last meeting Ms. Lauren Chen was here as a witness. She, her husband and her company, Tenet Media, are named in a U.S. indictment as having been the recipients of several million dollars from Russia as of today. We asked her a lot of questions and she came back with the same standard answer. For you, as a journalist who does all of this incredible investigative work, talk a bit about the challenges when you're dealing with social media companies that don't have journalistic standards and practices and no internal code of ethics that guides how they report on truthful events.

Mr. David Pugliese :

Sure. Madam Chair, as much as people—

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

We'll have just a brief response, please, a brief answer.

Mr. David Pugliese :

—dislike my journalism, you have a place to go. At the Ottawa Citizen, you can complain to my editor. You can take me to the national press council and file a complaint. With these other organizations, you can't. That is the difference between me and some of these other entities that you're running into.

(1635) The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

Thank you, Mr. Pugliese—

Mr. David Pugliese :

The one thing I pride myself on is—

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

I'm so sorry to interrupt. Our time is up on this round. Perhaps Mr. Lloyd will allow you to finish your comments. I apologize for interrupting. Mr. Lloyd, you have five minutes. Please go ahead.

Mr. Dane Lloyd (Sturgeon River—Parkland, CPC) :

Thank you, Madam Chair. I will say at the outset that the meeting where these allegations were made was very bizarre. Not having adequate time to review these documents beforehand really minimizes the opportunity to focus in on them. I'm going to take that opportunity right now to go into these documents and ask you some questions. I assume you have read the documents, Mr. Pugliese. The documents first appear to be written in about August or September 1984, and say that the subject, “Stuart”, was permanently residing in Ottawa at the time. Were you residing in Ottawa in 1984?

Mr. David Pugliese :

Madam Chair, no, I was not residing in Ottawa at that time.

Mr. Dane Lloyd :

Okay. In a later document, it says that in 1989 and 1990, the subject, “Stuart”, began active work at the Ottawa Citizen newspaper. Is that the time when you began active work at the Ottawa Citizen?

Mr. David Pugliese :

Madam Chair, that is correct, and that information is available online. I would just add that one of the other documents also stated that in 1988 I was permanently in Ottawa. That is false.

Mr. Dane Lloyd :

Another document says, “born and residing in Canada, student activist”. Were you a student activist?

Mr. David Pugliese :

Madam Chair, no, I wasn't a student activist.

Mr. Dane Lloyd :

The reason I'm asking is that these are very specific things.

Mr. David Pugliese :

Sure.

Mr. Dane Lloyd :

If somebody is putting this together, they must have done some research on you. Wouldn't you agree that the best disinformation always has an element of truth in it?

Mr. David Pugliese :

I would agree, except this time they didn't seem to do a very good job. You know—

Mr. Dane Lloyd :

Yes.

Mr. David Pugliese :

As I mentioned previously, student activist.... If you take a look at my writings, at one point in the 1980s I was writing for a Canadian Armed Forces journal or a Canadian Armed Forces publication, so—

Mr. Dane Lloyd :

They're kind of hotbeds for communists, those armed forces journals...?

Mr. David Pugliese :

No. My work in the 1980s would not be described as an op-ed for communists. It would probably be described as pro-military, pro-NATO, anti-Russian and anti-Soviet.

Mr. Dane Lloyd :

Another part of the document says that the subject, “Stuart”, expressed a “loyal attitude” towards Soviet Union policy. Have you had a loyal attitude towards Soviet Union policy?

Mr. David Pugliese :

Madam Chair, no, I have not had any pro-Soviet attitudes.

Mr. Dane Lloyd :

Looking at Russia as it is today versus what Russia was in the time of the Soviet Union, do you think that it's even ideologically consistent for somebody who was loyal to the Soviet Union to necessarily be loyal to what the current iteration of the Russian state looks like?

Mr. David Pugliese :

Madam Chair, that's a good question. Obviously, the Soviet Union from the 1980s arguably could be described as far different from what's going on in Russia right now. I don't have the knowledge, but they're totally two different entities.

Mr. Dane Lloyd :

Given that you've had access to these documents, have you had an opportunity to send them off for verification or to be debunked by a third party?

Mr. David Pugliese :

Madam Chair, no. I mean, the committee was given photocopies, I believe, so it's hard to send photocopies off and, quite frankly, I view the documents as ridiculous.

Mr. Dane Lloyd :

Yes, I just find it.... I don't think Mr. Alexander came up with these documents on his own, so obviously somebody put together these documents. Do you have any idea who might have put together these documents and what their motivations might have been?

Mr. David Pugliese :

Madam Chair, I can't get into details; however, I am in the midst of a civil lawsuit for $7 million that.... You know what? I think our lawyer would prefer that I don't go further into that.

Mr. Dane Lloyd :

Okay. How do you think we can improve resilience against foreign influence in a way that doesn't compromise press freedom?

(1640) Mr. David Pugliese :

That's a good point. I think you have to go through a prism of.... You have to carefully look at what's being presented. Just because I write an

article about sexual assault in the Canadian Forces and that—

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

I'm so sorry to cut you off. The time is up, but perhaps the Liberal member, Mr. Gaheer, may allow you to.... I'll leave that to him. He has five minutes. Mr. Gaheer, go ahead.

Mr. Iqwinder Gaheer (Mississauga—Malton, Lib.) :

Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Mr. Pugliese, for appearing before committee. I echo the comments by my colleagues that we were shocked by the testimony of Mr. Alexander that took place on the 24th, and I'm sure you were equally shocked. He made these allegations before a committee where parliamentary privilege obviously applies. Are you aware of Mr. Alexander making these allegations anywhere else?

Mr. David Pugliese :

Madam Chair, no. He has not repeated these allegations outside your committee.

Mr. Iqwinder Gaheer :

If he were to make these allegations outside the security of privilege, would you sue?

Mr. David Pugliese :

Madam Chair, at this point, I'm just trying to make sure that my family is safe, and then I just want to get back to journalism, which hopefully I can do next week, and I can't really go into that. Thank you.

Mr. Iqwinder Gaheer :

Okay. Earlier this week, our committee heard testimony from Lauren Chen, the founder of Tenet Media, the organization currently at the heart of the U.S. indictment on Russian interference and disinformation. When accusations like that are thrown around against journalists and when obviously we live in an environment—thanks in part to our neighbour to the south—where legacy media, mainstream media, is constantly criticized and mistrusted, what do you think that's doing in terms of eroding the trust in actual journalists when those kinds of claims are made against legacy media?

Mr. David Pugliese :

Madam Chair, yes, we're in a new world when it comes to social media and anyone can say anything. For instance, that there was an individual who obviously had advance warning about what was going to go down in your committee and who was tweeting one hour before you even started that this explosive testimony about a prominent Canadian journalist would happen. The same individual, the minute your committee started, popped these documents up on social media. We're in a different world here. In the 1990s, I was accused of being a CIA agent by peace groups.

When I was covering the Afghan war, some parliamentarians said I was a Taliban sympathizer. Fast forward to 2024, and now I'm a Russian spy. I'm living this exciting life. The difference this time is that these allegations against journalists, because of social media, just rocket everywhere. That's the difference. In the 1990s when I'm a CIA agent, that's just coming from a bunch of disarmament groups, but now it's a whole different world.

Mr. Iqwinder Gaheer :

In your role as a journalist, have you ever spoken with representatives of the Russian embassy in Canada regarding a potential story?

Mr. David Pugliese :

Madam Chair, in my role as a journalist, probably about eight years ago I received.... I've done three stories where the Russian embassy is quoted: two emailed statements, which were put in the story, and then the main story, which was a telephone conversation with the Russian embassy spokesman who was booted out of Canada by the Liberal government. That was a voice interview.

Mr. Iqwinder Gaheer :

That's great. Thank you. We know now that Rachel Curran, Meta's lobbyist and former director of policy for Stephen Harper, when testifying before our committee, said that Meta had to remove news from Facebook and Instagram in Canada because, under the Online News Act, they would be forced “to pay approximately $80 million a year for content that had no particular commercial value to us”. For those keeping track at home, last year Meta made $134 billion in revenue, and $80 million is 0.05% of Meta's annual revenue. Do you think that 0.05% of revenue, which is a rounding error, is too much to ask global tech giants to pay for Canadian news?

(1645) Mr. Brent Jolly :

I can answer that. Absolutely not. I think Meta's actions in the wake of the Online News Act were cowardly. I think they backed away as soon as possible because they understood there were going to be a lot of potential liabilities based on what was going on in the United States in the election that just took place and they didn't really want to be in that game. It became a question of dollars and cents, and it just didn't matter to them. I think that reflects the public service mandate or their interest in serving the public. I mean, half a per cent, a rounding error...? I'm biased. I'm a journalist. I—

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

That's all the time we have in this round.

Mr. Brent Jolly :

Fair enough.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Gaheer. We have two and a half minutes going to Ms. Michaud. Go ahead.

[ Translation ]

Ms. Kristina Michaud :

Thank you, Madam Chair. Mr. Pugliese, I talked earlier about the open letter that Alex Cosh published on November 5, which was signed by a number of journalists and people in the field, to defend you. He asks Mr. Alexander to provide evidence or offer a public apology. Since then, have you had any contact with Mr. Alexander? To your knowledge, does he seem to want to continue this war against you and the Canadian Association of Journalists, since a number of journalists seem to support you? Or does he seem to want to apologize?

[ English ]

Mr. David Pugliese :

Madam Chair, I don't expect an apology from him, from Mr. Alexander. It was a good boost for me to see those journalists and academics. I think 56 have come to my support, as well as Brent with the CAJ, and a number of other organizations. Yeah, I don't see that. I don't see him apologizing. However, quite frankly, when I look back at the testimony, he was telling your committee that I was intimidating a member of Parliament. I guess that's what I found incredible. Essentially, he accused me of two criminal acts: of being a traitor and of threatening a member of Parliament, who I don't even know.

I've used the word “unhinged”, and I'm going to use it again. I do not know his motives. I don't know what was going through his head. I'm sorry.

[ Translation ]

Ms. Kristina Michaud :

Thank you. In closing, Mr. Jolly, you described Mr. Alexander's remarks as dangerous at a time when we're trying to combat disinformation in all its forms. Do you think that this type of statement can undermine the public's trust in the media and in journalists?

Mr. Brent Jolly :

Yes. [ English ] Absolutely. I think it sows mistrust. It sows division. It makes people question what a journalist does and what their value is to society. I think undermining that is a dangerous principle that we can't tolerate.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

Thank you very much. Mr. MacGregor, you have two and a half minutes.

Mr. Alistair MacGregor :

Thank you, Madam Chair. Mr. Jolly, I'll direct this question to you. We know that this committee has been heavily involved in the foreign interference file, and we know that several countries are actively working to sow discord here in Canada. We can obviously see the result of that in how our politics are playing out. We know that various platforms have been carrying those messages. There have been talks about how we hold platforms accountable and about how we hold the people who are generating the content accountable, people who are in Ms. Chen's position, social media giants like Meta, X, Instagram and so on.

However, if you want to add to this conversation.... Ultimately, we've been looking at representatives from the whole spectrum, including our national security and intelligence agencies. You are knee-deep in this every single day with your profession, so from your perspective, what kinds of recommendations would you like to see in our report to the federal government? What things could the federal government concretely do to stop our foreign adversaries from sowing this kind of discord?

Mr. Brent Jolly :

I was watching some of the previous committee meetings to get a sense of where things were and to get up to speed. I particularly appreciate the idea behind some of the Scandinavian countries to ensure information resilience and public literacy on this. I think something that I see every day is that people don't understand the difference between a news report and an opinion article. Those are two completely different things, you know, but for some reason, that all sort of gets lumped into one because it appeared in the Ottawa Citizen or whatever. It's all one and the same in people's view.

I think that journalists are, by their nature, storytellers, and I think we do a pretty abysmal job of telling our own story. What do we do? Why are we here? What is the purpose of journalists in a functioning democratic society? I think if we can distill that, that's a real win. As for what this committee can do.... I mean, it's provincial jurisdiction because—God bless Canada and federalism—information literacy, media literacy, news literacy curricula and opportunities for that are where it's at.

(1650) The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

Thank you very much. We'll now go to the last round, which, colleagues, I will shorten by one minute just to keep us on time. We'll have two four-minute rounds. Mr. Motz, go right ahead.

Mr. Glen Motz (Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, CPC) :

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Thank you for being here, witnesses. I appreciate your coming here. Given the information that you've shared with committee members and in your testimony, you have steps that you take to maintain journalistic integrity. Could both of you explain how you go about doing that to prevent unknowingly spreading potential disinformation from any foreign actor?

Mr. David Pugliese :

Madam Chair, a lot of my journalism is records-based. When a Canadian Forces person comes to me and says, “This is happening to me,” the first thing I say is, “Please provide me with your records.” Usually, they give me a lot of records, including personnel reports, access to information and privacy reports and official government documents. I then go to the Department of National Defence. There's a checks and balance issue here. I say, “This individual is saying this.” The Department of National Defence will come back. Usually, it will say, “Yes, that's happening.” I'll say, “Please comment,” and away we go.

Mr. Glen Motz :

Okay. Thank you. I appreciate that. Basically, to summarize, you ask for documentation and then you source your sources.

Mr. David Pugliese :

That's correct. Yes.

Mr. Glen Motz :

Okay. Thank you. From a broader Canadian perspective, based on both your experiences, what indicators should Canadians be looking for and watching out for to identify potential disinformation campaigns originating from any foreign hostile state?

Mr. Brent Jolly :

A sense of critical thinking above all, I think, is the most foundational ingredient to be able to debunk ridiculousness like what we just saw here. It heartens me to hear that after the committee has had a chance to think through it or review the documents, they don't really pass muster.

Mr. Glen Motz :

I'm going to ask you to repeat that. Your mic wasn't on at the front end, so it's not going to show up for Canadians to hear. You said Canadians should employ critical thinking.

Mr. Brent Jolly :

Absolutely. To be able to decipher truth from falsehood, critical thinking is foundational. I don't know where we're going to be able to do that. The point about the education system...we have every province and territory. We're not teaching that, and that's—

Mr. Glen Motz :

Digital literacy is important.

Mr. Brent Jolly :

Absolutely. It's a core principle, just like mathematics and an understanding of how biology works are. People are on their smart phones right now. You are engaging in an environment where there is warfare going on right now. You need to have the tools to be able to fight back against that. If you don't, and you come with twigs and figs or something, you're going to lose. You're going to see misinformation and disinformation campaigns. You're going to see things like we saw down the street here a couple of years ago with the “freedom convoy” and all kinds of deleterious social things, so immunize.

(1655) Mr. Glen Motz :

Thank you very much. I appreciate both of your testimonies. Madam Chair, if I could, in the seconds I have left, I would like to move a motion about this study. I move:

That once the committee has conducted eight meetings on the study on Russian interference and disinformation campaigns in Canada, the committee proceed to the following matters in order:

1. The committee concurrently undertake, allotting alternating meetings of not fewer than six meetings each, its agreed-upon study on the rise in violent crime and a study examining how addressing gaps in community mental health and substance use health supports, including preventative and early intervention services can improve public safety in Canada; that both the Minister of Public Safety and Minister of Mental Health and Addictions be invited to testify separately for one hour each in this study; that the committee report its findings and recommendations to the House; and that pursuant to Standing Order 109, the government table a comprehensive response to the report.

2. The committee invite the Minister of Public Safety and the Minister of Immigration to appear before the committee as soon as possible pursuant to the motion passed on September 19, 2024.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

Thank you, Mr. Motz. Mr. Shipley. Are there any other hands up?

Mr. Doug Shipley :

Thank you, Chair. Very briefly, I appreciate the motion Mr. Motz has brought forward today. I would like to add to that one thing which he may have missed in his list, which is particularly relevant this week. Back in December 2023, this committee undertook a very serious and very heartfelt study on Paul Bernardo, and we haven't finished that yet, Chair. I know you're not our normal chair, but I want to get that on the record. I really think we need to get back to that, especially when the issue of his parole is coming up again. I'm sure the French and Mahaffy families would like some closure on that document.

I'd like to put that on there too. Canadians want answers and we really need to finish that study.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

Thank you, Mr. Shipley. Are you moving an amendment, or is that just a point of addition?

Mr. Doug Shipley :

It's just an addition.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

Okay. We have a motion on the floor. Madam Clerk, have you been able to distribute that?

Ms. Hilary Smyth (Committee Clerk) :

I'm working on it right now.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

We have hard copies for everyone in both languages. Can we distribute those? Colleagues, are there any further comments about the motion? We'll make sure we see it. I just want to see if we need to let the witnesses go. I don't want to hold them here if there's going to be a lot of discussion. I just want to see. Did you guys wan to talk about it?

Ms. Jennifer O'Connell :

We need to be able to see the motion.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

Yes. Our hour is up. We really do, as a committee, appreciate your coming to bring your perspective, Mr. Pugliese and Mr. Jolly. Thank you very much. Very sincerely, I'm very sorry to hear about what you've been going through, Mr. Pugliese. Thank you for coming to share your side of the story. We appreciate it. If there's anything further, please let the committee know. We hope that all will be well with you. Thank you very much for coming.

Mr. David Pugliese :

Thank you, Madam Chair.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

You are dismissed for now. We will suspend briefly so that the parties can review the motion. Thank you.

(1655) (1705) The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

Colleagues, we will resume the meeting. We'll take a speaking order if anyone would like to speak to the motion. Mr. MacGregor, I believe you wanted to speak to the motion.

Ms. Jennifer O'Connell :

Chair, may I speak to this?

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

You'll be next, Ms. O'Connell. Go ahead, Mr. MacGregor.

Mr. Alistair MacGregor :

Thank you, Madam Chair. When I first read through this, my opinion on the motion was that I thought most of it was okay, but I would like, in the first part, to have a very clear reference to the two very important studies that are before this committee, because, let's face it, foreign interference is a very clear and present danger to Canada right now. I would like to have references to both the Russian interference and disinformation campaign in Canada and also the electoral interference and criminal activities in Canada by agents of the government in India.

I suppose how I would change that first paragraph would be by having it say, “That, once the committee has concluded the study on Russian interference and disinformation campaigns in Canada and the study on electoral interference and criminal activities in Canada by agents of the government in India, the committee proceed to the following matters in order”. I'm fine with the rest of it. I'm not sure if I want to specify the exact number of meetings at this point, because I think we as a committee need to figure out how many more we're going to need. That would be my amendment to the motion.

Ms. Jennifer O'Connell :

I have a point of order, Madam Chair.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

Ms. O'Connell, go ahead on a point of order.

Ms. Jennifer O'Connell :

Madam Chair, I wanted to hear Mr. MacGregor's amendment, but regardless of that, notice of this motion was not given, and we were not on the topic of violent crime or on the topic of immigration, so I would argue this motion is actually not in order.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

Thank you, Ms. O'Connell. It is related to the Russian interference and disinformation campaign directly, so I would argue that it is in order.

Ms. Jennifer O'Connell :

Sorry, but where is that? Is it just because in the

preamble it says what will happen once the meetings on Russia are concluded?

Mr. Dane Lloyd :

Are you trying to challenge the chair?

Ms. Jennifer O'Connell :

Is that your ruling?

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

It would appear that the motion looks to have eight meetings for Russia, so the opening is directly related to Russia. In my opinion, it is.

Ms. Jennifer O'Connell :

Well, then, I would challenge the chair.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

Understood. We'll have a vote.

Mr. Doug Shipley :

To clarify, if we vote yes, we're...it's confusing.

Ms. Jennifer O'Connell :

You're sustaining her ruling if you vote yes.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

If you vote yes, you affirm my decision. If you vote no, you affirm Ms. O'Connell's position. Voting yes supports what I said, and voting no doesn't.

The Clerk :

Shall the decision of the chair be sustained?

(1710) The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

We have a tie. I am the tiebreaker, and I vote yes. (Ruling of the chair sustained: yeas 6; nays 5)

The Chair: Mr. Motz, go ahead.

Mr. Glen Motz :

I'd just like to add, as the mover of this motion, that I will accept Mr. MacGregor's amendment as a friendly amendment.

Ms. Jennifer O'Connell :

No.

Hon. Hedy Fry (Vancouver Centre, Lib.) :

No. There's no such thing as a friendly amendment.

Mr. Glen Motz :

It's okay, Hedy.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

I'm going to confirm with the clerk how we distribute this subamendment. It's not required that it be provided in writing, but I will ask Mr. MacGregor to repeat it one more time, slowly, for the interpreters, and to provide it in writing, perhaps as the conversation continues. Thank you.

Mr. Alistair MacGregor :

I'll read it very slowly. I'm really only amending that first paragraph. It would read as follows:

That, once the committee has concluded both the study on Russian interference and disinformation campaigns in Canada and the study on electoral interference and criminal activities in Canada by agents of the Government of India, the committee proceed to the following matters in order:

Ms. Jennifer O'Connell :

Chair, we need those in both official languages.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

Ms. O'Connell, I did not call on you, but I don't see other hands, so you may go.

Ms. Jennifer O'Connell :

It's a point of order, Madam Chair. We'd like that amendment in both official languages. That is the practice of this committee.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

The clerk will be providing it momentarily.

Ms. Jennifer O'Connell :

Well, then, we'll suspend until we have it in our email boxes and so that Dr. Fry also can receive it—

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

Ms. O'Connell, I am the chair and will decide if we suspend. Is there anyone else who would like to speak to the amendment while we distribute it? Go ahead, Ms. Damoff.

An hon. member: [ Inaudible—Editor ]

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho): My apologies. Ms. O'Connell—

Ms. Pam Damoff (Oakville North—Burlington, Lib.) :

I'm confused here. Are we suspended while we get it or are we speaking to the amendment?

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

We are speaking to the amendment while we wait to receive it. If you would like—

Ms. Jennifer O'Connell :

I have a point of order.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

Go ahead, Ms. O'Connell.

Ms. Jennifer O'Connell :

That is not the practice of this committee. We always suspend until we can receive amendments in writing in both official languages. If you're choosing to ignore the official languages of this committee, that seems to be a pattern with the Conservative Party, but that is the practice of this committee. We would like both official languages in writing and to not continue until we receive those amendments.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

On the four different committees I have been on, there are times when that is adhered to and times when it is not. We will ensure there's no vote on it until everyone receives it, but if others would like to speak to the motion, we will continue to speak. I will ensure there is not a vote until everyone has had a chance to review it. When the clerk sends it out, we will suspend momentarily for the review. It doesn't look like anyone wants to speak anyway, so if we could, we're going to make sure everyone is fine to not speak to the amendment at this point until it is received. I'm getting a nod from Ms. Michaud. We will suspend for a few minutes until everyone receives it.

(1710) (1715) The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

We have received it in both official languages. Are there any comments? I have Ms. Damoff.

Hon. Hedy Fry :

I have not received it in either official language.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

Ms. Fry, the clerk is going to send it to you now.

Hon. Hedy Fry :

I am not a P9, for the clerk's information. I'm an M1. Thank you.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

Thank you, Ms. Fry. Go ahead, Ms. Damoff.

Ms. Pam Damoff :

Thanks, Chair. It's a question mostly for my colleague who has moved the amendment that we're speaking to because, again, it's just in the

preamble. Quite frankly, I was shocked at the testimony we've heard so far on the India study. I think the last meeting was probably one of the most difficult meetings I've had to listen to when we had one of the witnesses talk about his experience. I don't like limiting. I don't remember what we agreed to on India. I think it was six meetings, but we may find at the end of those six meetings that there's still more information that we want to hear. In fact, it was your party that brought a motion to set up a whole new committee on it.

If we pass this motion, we're going to be limited because we've only agreed to do a study of six meetings. How, if the committee chooses to, are we going to extend either the Russia or the India study if we pass this motion? It's a concern I have about what we're doing. I just would like some clarity on that because it seems like we're committing.... You've said that once we finish the study on India.... Right now, finishing the study on India is actually six meetings, so it doesn't give us flexibility if we choose to extend either or both of these studies.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

Mr. MacGregor, go ahead.

Mr. Alistair MacGregor :

I can answer Ms. Damoff's questions. Those are fair points. I do believe that the motion I brought forward that started the investigation into India's interference in Canada stated “no fewer than six meetings”, so it's open, and my amendment to the motion brought forward by Mr. Motz simply uses the word “concluded”. It's totally up to this committee as to when we feel it's concluded. I agree with you. There may be more witnesses that we want to hear from. We always have the ability to extend our meetings for that, but I do think there are other things this committee needs to look at.

Foreign interference is absolutely important, which is why I have prioritized both the Russian study and the Indian study. I would disagree. It's not part of the

preamble. Everything after the word “that” is part of the actual motion, so if we adopt this, that's not a

preamble; it's actually a directive that we have to complete these two before we move on to everything else. I am putting priority on those through the amendment. I do agree with you that they should have priority, and I will support that. I also cannot ignore the fact that, in many small communities right across Canada, there are serious concerns about mental health and its intersection with public safety. That's why I would also like to see us, in a motion, commit to studying those at some point in the future. I'll leave it at that, Madam Chair.

(1720) The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

Thank you, Mr. MacGregor. Ms. Michaud.

[ Translation ]

Ms. Kristina Michaud :

Thank you, Madam Chair. I don't see a problem with this motion. Indeed, as Mr. MacGregor just said, there is no indication that a specific number of meetings would be set for the India interference study. We haven't had any projections on the

schedule of the committee's work for the last few months, so I think it's entirely reasonable to include it in a motion to ensure that we can undertake the studies proposed by the motions we passed previously. However, I see that the clock is ticking. The second hour of that meeting was supposed to be for the study of the draft report on auto theft. If we don't get there because we're debating this motion, I might move that we add to the motion that the report must be completed before we start the other studies. However, if everyone agrees to adopt the motion quickly, I'm perfectly prepared to adopt it as is so that we can move on to the study of the draft report on car thefts.

[ English ]

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

Thank you, Ms. Michaud. Dr. Fry.

Ms. Jennifer O'Connell :

I had my hand up.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

I did not see your hand. I apologize. I'll go to you next.

Hon. Hedy Fry :

Sorry, I don't want to interfere, but I know that the rules would say that, basically, if this motion...and I know the chair ruled on it. This motion just uses Russia in the

preamble. It is about two different things, and it should be given 48 hours' notice in both official languages before it is discussed by the committee.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

Thank you, Ms. Fry. Go ahead, Ms. O'Connell.

Ms. Jennifer O'Connell :

Thank you, Chair. Well, it's incredibly disappointing. I understand that the amendments help make this motion a little better. We already acknowledged that there are serious issues and concerns around whether or not...and Dr. Fry also talked about the procedural elements of this. However, it's fine if the Conservatives want to take the chair today and completely shut down the ability to continue our study on India and to limit our study on Russia. I mean, it fits within the Conservatives' approach. We had, as a committee, by majority vote determined our next steps, which was Mr.

MacGregor's motion on foreign interference by India. We are just getting into some of that testimony. The Russian study, the testimony we just heard today—with really compelling information, I think, about journalism and how journalists are being targeted—before we even concluded the full hour of that, we had Conservatives reprogramming the plan to try to avoid continuing that testimony or that study. When it comes to the amendment itself, while I recognize Mr.

MacGregor's attempts to, again, at least include it, I think the fact that the first version didn't make any mention of our studies around India should be very concerning. We saw that Conservatives, during our study on foreign interference by India, did not ask questions about India's involvement—

Mr. Dane Lloyd :

I have a point of order.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

Go ahead, Mr. Lloyd.

Mr. Dane Lloyd :

I just want to clarify. This committee had already agreed to the meetings about India, so it was viewed as needlessly repetitive to include that in there because we were going to be conducting these meetings on India. However, we did support the friendly amendment brought forward by Mr. MacGregor, and we have no problems with continuing that study.

Ms. Jennifer O'Connell :

That's not a point of order.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

That is up to me, Ms. O'Connell. Ms. O'Connell, you may resume your time to speak.

Ms. Jennifer O'Connell :

Thank you. We can clearly see how this is going to go. The committee can be just points of order and will now just be debate because they don't like my calling out the fact that Conservatives didn't ask about India's involvement, which was outlined by community members through testimony and the RCMP press conference, and instead, actually, it was Mr. Motz who asked about criminals in India, which seemed to be of higher importance than what Canadians were feeling in this country. To add it as an amendment to this motion does a real disservice to the very compelling testimony we heard.

It feels like a slapped-on saving face for a motion that, clearly, was drawn up by Conservatives who don't want to talk about India interfering with our democratic institutions and the allegations around violence in our communities being organized, deeply, with organized crime from India. I don't think the fact that it was left out of this motion is a mistake. The fact that Conservatives would like to move away from that study is not surprising, given how—

(1725) Mr. Glen Motz :

I have a point of order, Chair.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

Go ahead, Mr. Motz.

Mr. Glen Motz :

Chair, I think there needs to be a limit on the amount of patently false information that an individual can give at any committee, and what we're hearing spewed at this current moment is certainly patently false.

Ms. Jennifer O'Connell :

It wasn't a point of order.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

Mr. Motz, thank you, but let's make sure that we are being specific with our complaints. Thank you.

Hon. Hedy Fry :

My hand is up, Chair.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

Yes. Ms. O'Connell is still speaking, Ms. Fry, but I have you on the list after Mr. Chahal.

Hon. Hedy Fry :

Thank you.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

Thank you. Go ahead, Ms. O'Connell.

Ms. Jennifer O'Connell :

Thank you. Again, if we had rules on misinformation being spread by the Conservative Party, we would never be able to conduct any meetings. It's more of an uncomfortable situation. I think they also made the mistake of hoping to do this motion in camera but unfortunately forgot that we were still in public. Now Canadians are going to see that they put forward a motion without any mention of our study on foreign interference by India. It was Mr. MacGregor's amendment that at least acknowledged that, which I'm speaking to right now.

However, the fact that this motion came prepared without mention of it should send shockwaves to our community, to the Sikh community, to several other communities that have been raising alarm bells about the violence that they have experienced. Again, to see Conservatives put forward a motion completely ignoring the very damning testimony that we heard and the very concerning testimony.... Something that moved me was Mr.

Moninder Singh's testimony in which he spoke about the fact that there were threats of violence made towards him and his family, and that, to him, security almost became difficult to imagine and understand anymore because of how serious these threats were. The thought that you have to think about.... He mentioned being around other people, including us in this room, and what that meant to their safety and security, people who weren't even involved in some of the allegations and the things that he was being targeted for.

The fact that he had to worry about his own personal safety in even coming in person to the public safety and national security committee, and then the suggestion here today was to move away from that study, to ignore those concerns.... Mr. Motz is shaking his head no, but the motion presented had no mention of India and foreign interference and the testimony we heard. Frankly, I feel that the testimony we heard was just getting started. We had just heard from our public safety and national security advisers. We had a few community members. I've mentioned already one, Mr. Moninder Singh, and there were others.

However, we were really just getting started. To program away from that, I find that deeply concerning. I know of community members myself, but certainly I think my colleagues from the GTA, Vancouver and elsewhere in British Columbia are seeing that first hand and have probably heard from their communities of the very real threats. Conservatives in the House often raise the issue of extortion, but they don't raise the issues and allegations laid out by the RCMP around extortion being used as a form of foreign interference by the Modi government and that it's been linked to organized crime.

However, there's no mention of any of that at the public safety and national security committee until Mr. MacGregor brought forward this amendment. I think we all should be deeply, deeply worried that Conservative members could hear that testimony and say that that's not enough and that we should move on.

It makes me wonder because we also heard testimony, I think, from every single witness who was asked whether the Leader of the Opposition should receive his security clearance so that he can properly get the full briefing and the scope of the information around the foreign interference of India and the attempts against our democracy. Every single witness said yes—every single witness—so it shouldn't really be a surprise to anyone that the Conservatives now bring forward a motion completely ignoring that testimony.

(1730) There have been questions raised in the media around the Conservative—

Mr. Doug Shipley :

On a point of order, Chair, I want to point out that obviously, there's a filibuster going on right now to prevent this committee from doing any work and studying some very serious issues that we're all discussing around this country right now. I think that's a shame on behalf of the Liberals.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

Thank you, Mr. Shipley. That is not a point of order. We will go to Ms. O'Connell.

Ms. Jennifer O'Connell :

Thank you, Chair. I won't apologize for standing up for our communities, which have been threatened with violence. Conservatives want to change the channel. They moved a motion. They want to fight with me now because—

Mr. Dane Lloyd :

On a point of order, picking up on something that Ms. O'Connell said, she said there's no mention of India in the motion. I'm a bit confused because there is. The motion talks about India. Can the chair clarify for the committee that we are talking about India in this motion?

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

It's a point of clarification. It does refer to India. Technically, you are correct, Mr. Lloyd. Ms. O'Connell, go ahead.

Ms. Jennifer O'Connell :

The amendment brought forward by Mr. MacGregor prioritized—

Mr. Dane Lloyd :

It was opposed by you guys. Why did you oppose the inclusion of India?

Ms. Jennifer O'Connell :

We have not voted, have we?

Mr. Doug Shipley :

Let's get to it.

Ms. Jennifer O'Connell :

Of course the Conservatives would like to get to that.

Mr. Dane Lloyd :

They don't want the vote to include it.

Mr. George Chahal (Calgary Skyview, Lib.) :

Madam Chair—

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

Give me just a moment, please. Committee members, talk through the chair, please. Thank you. On a point of order, I have Mr. Chahal.

Ms. Pam Damoff :

Thank you, Madam Chair. My colleague Ms. O'Connell was trying to give a speech. I find it quite disrespectful that a number of colleagues turned on their mics at the same time. It's hard for the interpreters to interpret when a number of members are speaking. I would just ask that one member speak at a time so the member can be heard. Members can express their points of order individually if required.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

Thank you, Mr. Chahal. It is an important suggestion, but I don't believe that's a point of order either. Ms. O'Connell, go ahead.

Ms. Jennifer O'Connell :

Thank you. Like I said, I'm not surprised. It's going to continue to happen. I'm going to be interrupted quite a lot because that was the intention of the original motion. It's not for the fact that Mr. MacGregor moved an amendment. The original motion made no mention of our study on foreign interference in India. I believe Mr. MacGregor is very sincere in wanting to continue that study. Unfortunately, the Conservatives have brought forward a motion with zero mention of it. They then want to say that they care too, until the writing is here in front of us in black and white. Their intentions are very clear.

It is a huge disservice to the testimony we've heard, along with the serious nature of the allegations. The fact is that the Conservatives have yet to ask a question about the allegations of India's involvement in extortion, a murder and other violence, while undermining our democratic institutions by purporting disinformation and misinformation. The Conservatives have yet to ask a single question in this study, so it should be of no surprise to any Canadian that they would like to program away from this. The other component, which I was speaking to before I was interrupted, again, shouldn't be any surprise.

The fact is that witness after witness actually confirmed what I think we all knew and felt, which is that if a leader of an opposition party wants to be prime minister one day and wants to stand up for the safety and security of Canadians, they should also want to get security clearance so they can be properly briefed. I think we had CSIS and others confirm that in order to get a proper briefing on the full extent of the foreign interference by the Indian government, security clearance was the best way to get it.

It's incredibly cynical of politics and politicians that as soon as the Conservatives start being criticized, instead of diving into these allegations, they want to change the channel, change the subject. Then they raise points of order suggesting a filibuster. Again, I am not going to apologize for standing up for our communities. I think Conservatives should be made to feel very uncomfortable for their actions today, and I'm sure their constituents will let them know, but that's on them.

An hon. member: Point of order.

Ms. Jennifer O'Connell: There we go.

(1735) The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

Mr. Shipley, go ahead.

Mr. Doug Shipley :

Madam Chair, I have a quick point of order. I'm very, very comfortable here today.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

Thank you, Mr. Shipley. Ms. O'Connell, are you done, or do you want me to go to Mr. Chahal, who is next?

Ms. Jennifer O'Connell :

That's great. I'm not done.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

That's why I'm asking you, Ms. O'Connell.

Ms. Jennifer O'Connell :

That's not a problem. They can keep interrupting. Again, we will continue to speak and stand up for our communities because this is what's deeply important. We've just started that testimony. Given the fact of Mr. MacGregor's amendment, the Conservatives have shown very clearly to all Canadians their intentions. I think that was an accident. I think they meant to do this in camera, but unfortunately they've been able to show Canadians just exactly who they want to stand up for. I will stop here and allow my other colleagues to speak, but I'd like to be added to the list on the amendment. Thank you.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

Thank you, Ms. O'Connell. Mr. Chahal.

Ms. Pam Damoff :

Thank you, Madam Chair. I have a few questions that came to mind right away when this motion was dropped by my Conservative colleagues. The first thought was why we would want to avoid having this important conversation that this committee has been studying. For me and my community members in Calgary Skyview, right now this is the most important issue affecting them, their families, their lives, their safety and their well-being. I find it quite insulting after we heard the testimony the other day at this committee, which I had the opportunity to sub in on. We heard Mr.

Moninder Singh's really impactful testimony. We also heard from Balpreet Singh from the World Sikh Organization. They both provided testimony that members of this committee should take to heart. I'm glad Mr. MacGregor brought in the amendment to clarify what I think the Conservatives were trying to do to get away from studying foreign interference in our elections. Even the study today, in which Mr.

Pugliese talked about the impact on him of the disinformation or the attempts to discredit his work to bring accountability and transparency to the Canadian public, was an important conversation on the impact of Russian disinformation. However, to just skip over, in this motion, prior to the amendment the Conservatives brought forward, and not include India.... In the study that the public safety committee is doing on the electoral interference and criminal activities in Canada by the agents of the Government of India, it's my understanding we've only had two of six meetings.

For Conservative members to avoid studying that important issue is quite insulting to Indo Canadians, South Asians of Indian descent or those from the South Asian subcontinent who have experienced foreign interference not just over the last number of weeks but for decades. Conservative members must know that we, as members of the Sikh community, faced a Sikh genocide that occurred 40 years ago. This was an important conversation that we had last evening about men being murdered and women being raped, killed and burned alive.

Our community lived these horrific actions that took place 40 years ago, which are still something members of the community are asking to get justice for. I was at an event last night with Mr. Singh , the leader of the NDP, who very clearly stated how he intends to bring this forward to the House of Commons. Personally, as a member of the Sikh community, I stated that I think this is something that should be brought forward and that members of our Parliament should consider supporting, and I hope they unanimously do support it once we see the motion he brings forward in the House of Commons.

However, the intent of it is extremely important and it directly ties into the study we are conducting on electoral interference and criminal activities in Canada by the agents of the Government of India. At the last committee meeting I sat in on, I was astonished that Conservative members could not even utter those words and that they focused on duties to warn of potentially dangerous situations. That is what I heard.

They did not talk about the impact on communities—on South Asian communities—here in Canada, and they did not utter one question to any of our witnesses about the impact of that foreign interference on them. I'm proud to say my colleagues from all other parties, the Bloc, the NDP and the Liberal Party, did ask those tough questions and did hear the testimony provided.

(1740) I heard last night that Mr. Genuis stated at the World Sikh Organization event how the Conservative Party is taking this issue very seriously. If folks were there, they would have seen the crowd and its response to those comments. Members of the community are asking why the Conservative leader, Mr. Poilievre , will not get a security clearance. Why has he avoided getting a security clearance? The Conservative member said publicly last night that they take the issue of Indian interference in Canada seriously, and today we see the complete opposite.

We see Conservative members trying to find a clever way, which wasn't very clever in my opinion, of trying to avoid studying one of the most important studies, I would say, that this committee is studying. I say “one of” because of the study on auto theft, which I think we're in the process of concluding. I know that this is a very important study for the folks in the GTA. I know that members in the GTA want that study completed so the report can be brought back to the House.

It is an issue that I hear about from many friends and family members who live in the GTA, in terms of the importance of how to deal with auto theft. Also, then, the issue we've seen this committee study as to Russian election interference and disinformation is also a very important study. For me personally, we need to take election interference seriously, foreign interference in our elections. If members of the Conservative Party want to avoid it, they need to be clear on why they want to avoid studying foreign interference in Canadian elections. Is it what was stated last meeting?

For members from the Conservative Party who weren't here on that day, our witnesses clearly said that they have concerns about interference in the nomination races of the Conservative Party of Canada and in the leadership campaign. Those are the words of the witnesses who attended and provided important testimony at our last meeting. The impact on community members and communities was also raised at the last meeting. The suspension of security agreements was a concern brought forward.

I think we really need to dive a bit deeper at this committee on how information is shared between our government and other governments. One of the members at the last meeting mentioned that they want a public inquiry into the assassination of Bhai Hardeep Singh Nijjar. For folks who don't know, that was the president of the Surrey gurdwara who was assassinated on the gurdwara premises last year.

Recently, the RCMP brought forward information showing that they've arrested a number of individuals, but also showing that the Government of India has had interference and has targeted many other Canadians, one being the witness who came to testify at this committee the other day. Why do Conservative members not want to have a conversation and not hear from witnesses who will shed light on what's happening here in Canada on how Canadians are being targeted? This targeting is not something that has just started happening over the last few weeks or in the last year or the last few years.

This has been going on for decades. This is very important. One of the members there, Mr. Balpreet Singh did mention this, and Mr. Moninder Singh mentioned this as well: anti-Sikh hate and what's occurring in Canada today with members of the Sikh community being targeted or labelled as terrorists.

(1745) A Conservative MP called me a terrorist because I'm from the Sikh community. Maybe it was because I support Calgarians who are asking for justice when their families are being killed in Gaza. Yes, I support those family members and those communities; of course I do, but to target an individual...that's me as a member of Parliament who's being targeted by Mr. Majumdar . I find that shocking. Is that individual targeting other members of communities as well and calling them terrorists? That is promoting disinformation and misinformation, but that's also promoting hate toward members of our community.

As a member of the Sikh community, I find that quite offensive. The issue of anti-Sikh hate is one example I can share from my own perspective, but when community members are threatened over going to their place of worship, as we've seen over the last number of days, whether you're from the Sikh community or the Hindu community, there is fear within those communities. For Conservative members to try to cover this up by not doing the study is shameful.

I would love to hear from the leader of the Conservative Party about why he has asked members of this committee to cover this up and why he won't get his security clearance. Why does he want to cover up this study that's being done here at this committee? It's the job of this committee to bring forward studies, and this study was agreed upon to study the impacts, as this committee has done, of electoral interference and criminal activities in Canada by the agents of the Government of India. Mr. Balpreet Singh left me some important information from the event I attended.

I want to go into the importance of why the World Sikh Organization is one advocacy organization that has wanted to have a further conversation and provide information at this committee. I'm lucky that I have this information leaflet that really goes into detail about their advocacy efforts and why this disinformation campaign and the promotion by foreign governments of anti-Sikh rhetoric and hate is something we have to combat. Canadians, and I think maybe even with our study that we're having right now, should really seriously look into the impact on the members of the Sikh community.

There are a number of issues that come to mind. I could look in here and bring forward the RCMP case of the freedom to wear a dastar. Many of you may not know what a dastar is. It's a turban. My colleague Mr. Iqwinder Gaheer, who is next to me, proudly wears his dastar. In the 1990s, the first member of the RCMP to wear a dastar was Baltej Singh Dhillon. Let me tell you, at that time, there was a big debate across this country on whether Mr. Dhillon should be allowed to wear his dastar in the RCMP.

I can tell you who was trying to make sure he could not wear his dastar: members of the Conservative Party and the Reform movement. They brought forward petitions to ensure the member could not wear a turban in the RCMP. I think, for committee members, it's important to know that our former prime minister, Mr. Harper, wrote a letter asking Canadians that—

(1750) Mr. Dane Lloyd :

On a point of order, Madam Chair, I just want to remind the committee that the House had the opportunity to set up a special committee on India so that we could discuss these important issues, and it was the Liberals who opposed that happening.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

Thank you, Mr. Lloyd. Mr. Chahal, go ahead.

Ms. Pam Damoff :

Yes, Mr. Lloyd. It wasn't actually the reason why, I think, we are studying it here at this committee, and if you want to avoid having the conversation of Mr. Harper's involvement—

Mr. Dane Lloyd :

We could have had a whole committee on this.

Ms. Pam Damoff :

—publicly stating that he opposed a member of the Sikh community wearing the dastar in the RCMP. That's a conversation we should have. That's how hate toward the Sikh community is brought forward. I can tell you that members of the community were threatened for wearing turbans at that time. I can tell you that a member of the Conservative Party brought forward a petition which many Canadians signed, unfortunately. That's our history. Many Canadians signed and opposed a member wearing a turban in the RCMP. I'm proud to say that the RCMP allowed the member to wear it.

If you go to the RCMP Heritage Centre in Regina, you will have the opportunity to see that dastar showcased and the uniform of Mr. Baltej Singh Dhillon there. Why did members of the Conservative Party not want that individual to wear the dastar?

Mr. Dane Lloyd :

On a point of order, Madam Chair, I just want it on the record that in 1990 it was a Conservative government that lifted the ban on turbans for the RCMP.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

Thank you, Mr. Lloyd. That's not a point of order. Go ahead, Mr. Chahal.

Ms. Pam Damoff :

I would ask Mr. Lloyd why Mr. Harper publicly stated that he was against that. I would ask other members to do the same. I would ask why Mr. Poilievre was a part of the Reform Party, which was actively engaging to target the individual from being a member of the RCMP. Why were members wearing pins that crossed out a member of the Sikh community who had a turban on? They were proudly wearing pins with a line through them.

We think about the importance of the turban for that member but also the history of Sikhs fighting for this nation, fighting in World War I and World War II wearing a turban, fighting on the front lines, putting their lives at risk for freedom, for freedom of the Commonwealth, for freedom for them to be able to practise their faith.

(1755) Mr. Dane Lloyd :

On a point of order, Madam Chair, I just want to say that I'm very proud that my colleague Tim Uppal , a member from Edmonton, was the first turbaned Sikh to sit in a cabinet in Canada, and it was under Stephen Harper.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

Thank you, Mr. Lloyd. I recognize that emotions are running a bit high. Colleagues, this is a sensitive topic. Obviously it's been a number of weeks since our last constituency break. Let's please take a breath, and we will resume. Go ahead, Ms. Damoff.

Ms. Pam Damoff :

Chair, it's not a point of order. I have a question. Until what time do we have resources?

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

We are checking, but it sounds, from the response other committees are getting, like a hard stop at six.

Ms. Pam Damoff :

Thank you.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

That was not a point of order; you're correct. It was a point of clarification, which is sometimes allowed. Mr. Chahal, please resume your debate.

Ms. Pam Damoff :

As I speak with members of my community, particularly over the next number of days as we honour our veterans.... For me, as a member of the Sikh community, whose members have fought for freedom in northern India and in India to be able to practice their religion and have freedom of speech.... Many of them fought for the Commonwealth in World War I and World War II to have that ability and to proudly come to this nation and be Canadian citizens.

They have had the opportunity to fight for this nation and also to serve, whether it's as members Parliament, as members of the police services across the country or as members of our armed forces, and proudly do so while wearing their turbans. It's important to also acknowledge, when I think about the important conversation we had last night and reflect with many community members, that many of the concerns that are arising today with misinformation and disinformation....

That's why the Russian misinformation and disinformation study that's occurring in this committee, along with the study on electoral interference and criminal activity in Canada by the agents of the government of India.... An important part of what we have not studied yet and have not gotten into is exactly that. Who is pushing this information into the Canadian public to incite violence? Is it coming from domestic sources or is it coming from international sources? I've been watching the news over the last number of days and I've been on social media.

It's concerning for me when I see members of the Sikh community or the Hindu community having concerns about going to their place of worship. That is something we need to think about on this committee. It's about how they are getting information or how other members of the community are being sent to target community members and prevent them from being able to go to their place of worship. I remember, as a child in Calgary, when the Sikh Society of Calgary, the first gurdwara, was built in 1978. I was three years old. Over the years afterward, that Sikh temple was targeted regularly.

Who was it targeted by at that time? There was targeting by members of our society who felt that people who looked a little different, like my parents and many of my relatives, were not welcome, unfortunately. The Sikh temple in southwest Calgary was targeted a number of times. When I was a child, my dad would go there and sleep overnight with many others to protect our place of worship. In northeast Calgary, when the Dashmesh Culture Centre in my constituency was being built, it was also targeted on numerous occasions.

What the Sikh communities tried to do over the years was help Canadians who live in our city understand who we are as Sikh Canadians and build interfaith bridges with other communities. I have fond memories of collaboration that we've had with the Jewish community. I have fond memories of the collaboration that the Sikh community had with the Hindu community in Calgary. I get to represent, I would say, the most diverse riding in the country in Calgary Skyview. I'd like to challenge anybody who thinks otherwise. The important collaboration, when we saw what happened—

(1800) The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

Mr. Chahal, I'm sorry. Could you just wrap up your last thought? Then we'll move on.

Ms. Pam Damoff :

I still have lots of thoughts. I want to talk about the collaboration with the Sikh and Muslim communities.

The Vice-Chair (Ms. Raquel Dancho) :

I appreciate that. I just wanted to provide you a bit of a courtesy rather than cutting you off. Unfortunately, we are way over time and out of resources, so at this point I will suspend, and we will resume this discussion on the Tuesday when we return from break. The meeting is suspended. [ The meeting was suspended at 6:05 p.m., Thursday, November 7 ] [ The meeting resumed at 11:04 a.m., Tuesday, November 19 ]

(29900) The Clerk of the Committee (Mr. Simon Larouche) :

Good morning. I call this meeting to order. [ Translation ] I see a quorum. I need to inform committee members that the chair has resigned. We must now proceed to the election of a new chair. As clerk of the committee, I can only receive motions for the election of the chair. The clerk cannot receive other types of motions and cannot entertain points of order. Also, I can't participate in the debates. (29905) [ English ] We can now proceed to the election of the chair. Pursuant to Standing Order 106(2), the chair must be a member of the government. I'm now ready to receive motions for the chair.

Ms. Jennifer O'Connell :

I move that the chair be Iqwinder Gaheer.

[ Translation ]

The Clerk :

It has been moved by Jennifer O'Connell that Iqwinder Gaheer be elected as chair of the committee. [ English ] Are there other motions? [ Translation ] It doesn't look like it. [ English ] Is it the pleasure of the committee to adopt the motion? (Motion agreed to)

The Clerk: I declare the motion carried and Mr. Gaheer the duly elected chair of the committee.

Some hon. members: Hear, hear!

The Clerk: I invite him to come to the chair.

Mr. Iqwinder Gaheer :

Hi, everyone. I hope the committee resumes as blissfully as my election to chair, but I would like to ask for a brief pause so I can consult the clerk as to the next steps.

Ms. Jennifer O'Connell :

We should just move right into the meeting.

Ms. Pam Damoff :

Mr. Chair, you are the chair, so it's up to you.

Mr. Iqwinder Gaheer :

I call this meeting to order. Welcome to meeting 129,

part 2, of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security. We are resuming our meeting of Thursday, November 7, 2024. Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. Before we begin, I'd like to ask all in-person participants to read the guidelines written on the updated cards on the table. These measures are in place to help prevent audio and feedback incidents and to protect the health and safety of all participants, including the interpreters. You will also notice a QR code on the card, which links to a short awareness video.

I'd like to remind participants of the following points. Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. All comments should be addressed through the chair. Members, please raise your hand if you wish to speak, whether participating on Zoom or in person. The clerk and I will manage the speaking order as best we can. I know there is a 106(4) motion, but we are going to start with resuming debate on the amendment by Mr. MacGregor to the motion by Mr. Motz which was moved on November 7. I recognize Ms. Dancho.

Ms. Pam Damoff :

Thank you. I have a point of order on a procedural matter that I'd just like you to confirm, Chair. We are continuing after the suspension, but we have that 106(4) request, as you've outlined. It is my understanding that, once those issues of the matters in the suspension are resolved, we would go into the 106(4) matter, which is, of course, about the ISIS terrorist plot to bomb Parliament Hill and a Jewish gathering that had MPs and others there. Of course, we sent a letter to the chair. Can you just confirm that, if the matter at hand is resolved and the Liberals end the filibuster, we would go into the 106(4) if we deal with that motion first?

Mr. Iqwinder Gaheer :

We are going to resume debate on the amendment by Mr. MacGregor to the motion that was brought forward by Mr. Motz on November 7, and then we will move to the Standing Order106(4) matter after that debate.

(29910) Ms. Pam Damoff :

I'd like to be added to the speaking list, sir.

Mr. Iqwinder Gaheer :

Sure. When we suspended the last time, Mr. Chahal had the floor, so he will be speaking first. Ms. Dancho, you will be next.

Ms. Pam Damoff :

I have a point of order, Chair.

Mr. Iqwinder Gaheer :

I recognize Ms. Damoff.

Ms. Pam Damoff :

Thank you. My hand was up before Ms. Dancho raised her point of order and asked to speak.

Mr. Iqwinder Gaheer :

Do you have a point of order?

Ms. Pam Damoff :

It's up right now. I should be next on the speaking order, after Mr. Chahal. My hand was up as soon as you took the chair.

Mr. Iqwinder Gaheer :

I apologize, Ms. Damoff. I'll keep better track of the screen in front of me. I did see Ms. Dancho's hand first, so I'll list her first.

Ms. Pam Damoff :

Except, it was up.... I can't help that the clerk or you didn't see it, but I had it up long before she raised her point of order, Chair.

Mr. Iqwinder Gaheer :

You can challenge the ruling of the chair, but I've been told by the clerk that there is no challenge to the speaking list, that it is my decision. I apologize that I did not see the screen. There's a chance that your hand was up before Ms. Dancho's, but the list so far is Mr. Chahal resuming, then Ms. Dancho, then Ms. Damoff and then Ms. O'Connell.

Ms. Pam Damoff :

Thank you.

Ms. Pam Damoff :

Mr. Chair, congratulations, on becoming chair of this committee. Before I begin, perhaps the clerk could you provide a recap. We did have a motion that was brought to the floor by Mr. Motz. We had a subsequent amendment brought forward by Mr. MacGregor. I see there are a few other members who have joined us today, who may not have been present on November 7, when the meeting was suspended. I think it would be beneficial for all committee members to have a clear understanding of where we are in debate.

I have an understanding of where we are, but I think just for clarity, as members raise their hands, they'll be able to appropriately debate the amendment we're on. I'm wondering if the clerk could provide a quick update on the original motion brought forward by Mr. Motz and then the amendment that was placed by Mr. MacGregor.

The Clerk :

The original motion reads:

That once the committee has conducted eight meetings on the study on Russian interference and disinformation campaigns in Canada, the committee proceed to the following matters in order:

1. The committee concurrently undertake, allotting alternating meetings of not fewer than six meetings each, its agreed-upon study on the rise in violent crime and a study examining how addressing gaps in community mental health and substance use health supports, including preventative and early intervention services can improve public safety in Canada; that both the Minister of Public Safety and Minister of Mental Health and Addictions be invited to testify separately for one hour each in this study; that the committee report its findings and recommendations to the House; and that pursuant to Standing Order 109, the government table a comprehensive response to the report.

2. The committee invite the Minister of Public Safety and the Minister of Immigration to appear before the committee as soon as possible pursuant to the motion passed on September 19, 2024.

The amendment was to the first part of the motion and reads:

That, once the committee has conducted both the study on Russian interference and disinformation campaigns in Canada and the study on electoral interference and criminal activities in Canada by agents of the Government of India, the committee proceed to the following matters in order:

Mr. Alistair MacGregor :

I'm sorry. I have a point of order.

Mr. Iqwinder Gaheer :

What is your point of order, Mr. MacGregor?

Mr. Alistair MacGregor :

Mr. Clerk, it was “concluded”, not “conducted”. That was the key word there.

Ms. Pam Damoff :

Chair, I have a question on clarity for the clerk. As he was reading that, I heard “six meetings each,” and then Mr. MacGregor's motion was when they're concluded. Is the motion that the Russia and India studies be six meetings each? Is that what's before us? I'm a little confused.

(29915) The Clerk :

The original motion says, “That once the committee has conducted eight meetings”. This

part is removed by the amendment by Mr. MacGregor. The six meetings reference is just in the first part, which is, “The committee concurrently undertake allotting alternating meetings of not fewer than six meetings each”.

Ms. Pam Damoff :

Okay.

The Clerk :

That's the same six meetings in the original motion.

Ms. Pam Damoff :

Is his amendment for eight meetings for Russia and eight meetings for India, or simply when they're concluded?

The Clerk :

Yes, it's to take out any reference to a number of meetings.

Ms. Pam Damoff :

Okay, thanks.

Mr. Dane Lloyd :

I have a point of order.

Mr. Iqwinder Gaheer :

Mr. Lloyd, go ahead on a point of order.

Mr. Dane Lloyd :

I'm wondering, as I believe Mr. Chahal has given up the floor, shouldn't we move to the next speaker, Mr. Chair?

Mr. Iqwinder Gaheer :

No, he hasn't given up the floor.

Mr. Dane Lloyd :

He's given it up. There have been three speakers since he's given it up.

Mr. Iqwinder Gaheer :

There have been points of order, but Mr. Chahal still has the floor, and I think he's eager to speak, actually.

Ms. Pam Damoff :

I am. Thank you, Mr. Chair and Mr. Clerk, for providing this committee a brief update on where we're at. That's where I'll begin today. I came to the meeting on November 7. It was a very interesting meeting on Russian disinformation, which was being studied by this committee. I understand this committee has a significant amount of work under way. I previously discussed the auto theft report, which I know is also in the queue to be worked upon. I know that's a critical piece of work for members in the GTA, but also those all across Canada.

It's critical that that work, that report, be finished, be reviewed, so this committee can also submit that to the House of Commons, and make important recommendations to deal with this significant issue. I'm somewhat shocked that the Conservatives want to avoid doing that work, but what I'm really shocked about, upon sitting in this meeting, is when I saw my colleague from across, Mr. Motz, bring forward a programming motion that tried to get rid of the study on India. I'm a member of the Sikh community. I'm a proud, born and raised, Sikh Canadian.

For me to see this behaviour from members across, I was flabbergasted. That's why I'm here today, so that I continue to hear from members, but also have this important debate. I'm glad Mr. MacGregor brought in an amendment to reinsert the India study as a priority, as well as the study on Russian disinformation. Our witnesses provided important testimony on November 7.

The one journalist from the Ottawa Citizen and the other individual who represented journalists from across Canada voiced their concerns on how Conservative members and former Conservative members have targeted them, and particularly that individual from the Ottawa Citizen on his reporting over the years. I think that study on Russian disinformation is extremely important. We know that disinformation is conducted through various forms.

I haven't had the opportunity to sit through a number of the meetings and important testimony that's been provided with the Russian disinformation study that this committee has brought forward, but that day I was alarmed by some of the tactics used with Russian disinformation, and the impact on public safety and on national security across Canada.

The Russian interference and disinformation campaigns which this committee is studying is extremely important work that we must finish, and then we need to continue on with the work of the study of electoral interference and criminal activities in Canada by agents of the Government of India. It's my understanding—and Mr. Clerk, you can advise me if I'm wrong—that we have conducted two meetings of that study, and there are several meetings to go. Over the last constituency week, I had the opportunity on Sunday and last Friday.... Last Friday was, in the Sikh faith, a very important day.

It was the 554th anniversary of the birth of Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Members in the Sikh community, when I was at the Dashmesh Cultural Centre last Friday, raised this important question. They said, “With what we've seen occur recently with the murder of Bhai Hardeep Singh Nijar, what is the government doing? What is Parliament doing?” I proudly said, as the member for Calgary Skyview, that we were conducting a study at the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security on this very issue, supported by colleagues.

(29920) I also had to tell them that members of the Conservative Party have tried, once again, to avoid having this important conversation. They asked why the Conservatives would want to avoid having a conversation of public safety issues in Canada about the targeting of members of our community. They are Canadians. When a Canadian citizen on Canadian soil at the Surrey gurdwara was murdered.... Think of it. Many of you go to your faith community, a place of worship that's important for you.

Maybe it's where you've gone your whole life to go to religious school or language school with your siblings, with your parents, with your children, with your grandparents. At that same place, the president of the Sikh gurdwara was assassinated. What fear does that put into people? What fear does that put into those children? What about the trauma? I've heard fear expressed by my constituents. I've received hundreds of emails expressing that people are scared. They are worried with these ongoing threats.

We saw several weeks ago, as well, incidents in Brampton, where at the gurdwara in Malton there were threats of violence. We've seen in the streets of Brampton large protests on this very issue. I told members of my community in Calgary last Friday.... I had the opportunity to speak from the stage at the Dashmesh Culture Centre as well. I had the opportunity to participate in an important radiothon with Red FM in Calgary, the Dashmesh Culture Centre and many communities, an interfaith event.

A number of communities came together at the gurdwara to raise funds to build a permanent food bank at the Dashmesh Culture Centre. That initiative is to ensure that Canadians in our community with concerns of food security have the opportunity to get culturally appropriate food, and to ensure that Calgarians in my part of the city and all Calgarians who have needs through some of the challenges and difficult times they face are able to have food for their families. The biggest concern for those members was Indian interference in our country and the criminal activities that we've seen.

We've heard issues of extortion. We've heard of electoral interference. Journalists have reported that, potentially, in Conservative party nomination races and also in the leadership race of the Conservative Party of Canada, there was electoral interference by foreign governments. We need to make sure that we hear from witnesses as we move forward with the important testimony from community members, their concerns about our democracy being interfered with.

A concern that I'm hearing, as there are nominations happening for all various parties currently, is that there's ongoing potential interference in some Conservative Party races. Members are concerned that the impact of those will continue unless we have this important discussion and uncover it through testimony, and bring forward recommendations to protect our democracy and protect this important institution that protects Canadians.

(29925) I heard the important testimony from Mr. Moninder Singh and Balpreet Singh. I also heard from community members last week that they would like to speak at this committee. They asked when they could do so. I had to alert them once again that this study potentially, if the Conservatives have their way, may not continue because of the Conservatives' avoidance of these public safety concerns in Canada. I do want to go back to Mr. Balpreet Singh and Moninder Singh. I did reference these important comments they made last week. One was that it was clearly identified by Mr.

Moninder Singh that Conservative members will not ask a question on foreign interference and that their questions continue to focus on duties to warn and avoid directly dealing with the issue at hand. Mr. Moninder Singh brought forward four recommendations and concerns. I think this committee should take these recommendations quite seriously. I'm hoping to see them in the report. The first was a suspension of security agreements. Public Safety Canada put out the “2018 Public Report on the Terrorism Threat to Canada”, which had included Sikh-Khalistan extremism.

I'm proud that the government at the time, in 2018, took steps to remove the targeting of members of the Sikh community, members who are in our nation speaking on their beliefs of what a democracy should look like and their beliefs in human rights protections but did not want to be singled out. Many of these community members are advocating for peaceful objection to interference by foreign states. Mr. Moninder Singh provided a second recommendation requesting a public inquiry into the assassination of Hardeep Singh Nijjar.

That's what I heard as well: There are a number of community members who are looking for that. That's why we need to hear further testimony from witnesses to see if that is something this committee and our Parliament should embark upon. The third recommendation that Mr. Singh brought forward was prosecution of the conspirators, the folks who may have been involved in what's happened here in foreign interference in Canada.

Other nations have taken various steps; maybe we can learn from some of those other countries how they look to prosecute individuals from foreign nations who have used similar techniques in targeting their citizens. What can Canada learn? The fourth recommendation had to do with anti-Sikh hate. This is an important issue. This is what I'm going to actually spend a lot of my time on today, Mr. Chair. I will get into the details of the anti-Sikh hate we're seeing and how misinformation and disinformation campaigns and foreign interference have led to anti-Sikh hate across Canada.

I would also mention, as a member of the Sikh community and as the member for Calgary Skyview, the anti-Muslim hate that I've seen in my constituency as well.

(29930) I have a large community of members of the Punjabi Sikh community and members of the Muslim community and have an opportunity to proudly represent one of the most diverse ridings in the country. I frequently attend the gurdwara, but I also frequently attend the masjids in my constituency to hear from community members, and also the mandirs. I'm embarking on making sure we can continue the harmony we have in our community in northeast Calgary to bring communities together and not further divide them.

Before I get into the concerns that our witnesses have on anti-Sikh hate, I do want to talk about what members raised to me last Friday at the Gurdwara Sahib Dashmesh Culture Centre, and last Sunday at the Sikh Society of Calgary, in southwest Calgary, where I