April 16, 1982 ALBERTA HANSARD 617 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ALBERTA Title: Friday, April 16, 1982 10:00 a.m. [The House met at 10 a.m.] PRAYERS [Mr. Speaker in the Chair] head: INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, this morning I'm pleased to introduce to you, and through you, a very distinguished guest from Seattle. The gentleman is a fellow and board member of the American College of Prosthodontists; a fellow, member, and past president of the American Pro- sthodontic Society; and a member and past president of the American Equilibration Society.

In 1972, the gentle­ man was cited by the President of the United States for his contributions to the health professions. He's a visiting professor in three schools of dentistry in the United States. Mr. Speaker, my guest is here opening an educational facility for the advancement of myotonics research. I'd like Dr. Dayton Krajicek to rise and receive the recogni­ tion of the Legislature. MR. SCHMID: Mr.

Speaker, today I'm especially happy to be able to introduce to you and hon. members of this Assembly 15 members of a group of business people from Austria, who are here to seek and consider joint ventures, co-operation, and investment in our province. They are accompanied by Mr. Herwig Schneider, the Austrian trade commissioner stationed in Vancouver, and the Aus­ trian consul in Calgary, Mr. Hans Ockermueller. Mr.

Speaker, these ladies and gentlemen represent a diversity of manufacturing, such as space heaters, drills, lighting, fast-mounted snow chains, furniture, fibreglass reinforced plastics, ski lifts, food processing, and many others. May I especially thank Kommerzienrat Schimautz for his help during our last trade mission to Austria and, as a result, bringing to Alberta these representatives of successful Austrian enterprise. Darf Ich unsere Geehrten Besucher auch in Ihrer Landessprache aufs Herzlichste hier in Alberta und be- sonders in unserem Parlamentsgebaeude Willkommen heissen.

Wir danke Ihnen fuer Ihren Besuch und wuens- chen Ihnen viel Glueck und Erfolg fuer diese Reise. Wuerden Sie bitte aufstehen um den beifall meiner Kolle- gen entgegenzunehmen. [As submitted] May I ask the hon. members of this Assembly to welcome our distinguished visitors. head: TABLING RETURNS AND REPORTS MR. KROEGER: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to table four copies of the annual report for Alberta Transportation. MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the hon. Premier and the hon.

Minister of Federal and Intergov­ ernmental Affairs, I wish to file copies of a brochure commemorating the proclamation, by Her Majesty, of a new constitution for Canada. Copies will be distributed to all Albertans. DR. WEBBER: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to table copies of the annual report of Alberta Government Telephones for the year ended December 31, 1981. head: INTRODUCTION OF SPECIAL GUESTS MRS. FYFE: Mr. Speaker, this morning I would like to introduce to you and other members of the Assembly 46 grade 9 students from Sturgeon Heights school in the St. Albert constituency. Accompanied by Miss Fowler and Mrs.

McGregor, they are seated in the members gallery. I ask them to stand and be recognized by the Assembly. MR. SCHMID: Mr. Speaker, once again I'm delighted to introduce to you and to the members of this Assembly the grades 5 and 6 classes of one of Edmonton's finest schools, Holyrood. They are accompanied by parents Annie Schmidt-Paborn and Gordon Ostapchuk, as well as their teachers Irine Hirniak and Helene Magus. I'm especially happy that they're here, because just recently they had a very fine exhibit at a science fair, of which surely their parents and school can be very proud.

May I ask them to rise in the members gallery and receive the welcome of this Assembly. MR. COOKSON: Mr. Speaker, on this special day it's a pleasure to introduce to you and to members of the Assembly two groups of pupils on behalf of the Hon. Dallas Schmidt who, because of an unfortunate farm accident, is not able to be here. First is a group of grade 9 students from Ellerslie, in the constituency of Wetaskiwin-Leduc, along with 24 students from Windsor, Quebec. They are in the public gallery with their teachers Mr. Roger Castle and Ron Mastine, and Mrs. Mastine.

First of all, I ask that that group rise and receive the welcome of the Assembly. Grade 6 students from J.E. Lapointe school in the constituency of Wetaskiwin-Leduc are in the public gal­ lery, with their teachers Mrs. Tilroe and Mr. McGillivray, and parents Mrs. Hunley, Mrs. Ingledew, and Mrs. List­ er. Also on behalf of the Hon. Dallas Schmidt, I ask that they too rise and receive the welcome of the Assembly. head: MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs MR. KOZIAK: Mr.

Speaker, since undertaking my re­ sponsibilities as Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs, I have stressed that an informed consumer is the most powerful instrument in maintaining an effective, competitive market place. In line with the mandate of providing information to Alberta consumers, I wish to announce the publication of a consumer resource book entitled Moving Out. In a magazine format, Moving Out is written for young adult Albertans and is packed full of information, helpful hints, and advice on alternatives.

Numerous articles ad­ dress topics such as credit, housing, transportation, money, the market place, life style, and entertainment. All are important subjects that young adults will need to

618 ALBERTA HANSARD April 16, 1982 be informed about so they can effectively deal with the challenges of a contemporary market place. Responsibility, growth, and alternatives are the three key components of this self-help magazine. By striving to equip consumers, especially young adults, with sound knowledge, and by encouraging them to check out alter­ natives, good consumer habits can be developed, lessen­ ing the need for more regulations. Moving Out is available, free of charge, from any of the regional offices of Consumer and Corporate Affairs.

Plans for distributing the magazine include delivery through educational institutions and at various career fairs and consumer workshops planned in the near future. Copies have been provided for distribution to all mem­ bers of the Assembly. Mr. Speaker, our theme in this publication is responsi­ bility. Moving Out is not just about living on your own; it's about being responsible for yourself, making some­ thing good out of a life filled with possibilities. In fact, you may not have to leave your own room. Moving Out is a state of mind.

It's about solving problems, finding answers, attaining goals, and being the person you want to be. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: May I express, without going beyond that at the moment, some misgiving as to whether the release of a publication should constitute material for ministerial announcements. I rather doubt that the tradi­ tion or intent which relates to ministerial announcements would indicate that they were intended, or are used, for that purpose. It would seem to me that there is a large number of publications all the time from various sources, including the government.

If ministerial announcements are going to be used in order to summarize and extol the contents of those publications, we're going to have an awful lot of ministerial announcements. MR. KOZIAK: Mr. Speaker, on the point you've raised, and in response, perhaps I should make these comments. There is no doubt that your remarks are extremely accur­ ate in certain areas, but one must not overlook the fact that the major responsibility of the Department of Con­ sumer and Corporate Affairs is consumer education.

I am discharging that responsibility imposed upon me by this Legislature and, in doing so, sharing with this Legislature the way I'm discharging that responsibility. I think it's most appropriate that I make this ministerial statement, showing the members of this Assembly the way that responsibility is being discharged. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, on the point of order, I'd like to make two statements. I think the ruling you have made, or implied, that ministerial statements shouldn't announce programs or pamphlets, is a bit un­ fair to the ministers in government.

One, this government hides so many things that people don't know about that it's a good thing they stand up once in a while and tell us they're doing something. So please allow them to do that. MR. NOTLEY: It's refreshing. MR. R. SPEAKER: Number two, I think it's important that the ministers make statements. The people of Alberta should know that many frivolous and not too important pamphlets, booklets, and advertisements go out from this government, and there's a lot of waste of money. So for both those reasons, Mr. Speaker, do not stop the minis­ ters from making statements. MR.

NOTLEY: Lots of advertising; no action. MR. KOZIAK: Mr. Speaker, on the point of order. I'm grateful to the Leader of the Opposition for supporting me, in part, on the point I raised. I'm sure he hasn't had the opportunity to review this publication, and on his review, would conclude that his latter remarks with re­ spect to frivolity do not apply to this publication. I'm sure he'll find it extremely useful with the young adults he serves as a member of the constituency he represents. MR. SPEAKER: Without wanting to prolong the matter at all, I should first of all compliment the hon.

Leader of the Opposition for being able to enunciate so clearly with his tongue so firmly in his cheek. And I must say that the hon. minister has very much reinforced my misgiving by referring to his obligation in regard to education, because that brings to mind the publications of the Department of Advanced Education and Manpower and of the Depart­ ment of Education. Perhaps we could proceed with the next order of business. MR. PAHL: On the point of order. In view of the remarks, I wonder if the minister might consider renam­ ing the publication "Take Off, Eh", rather than Moving Out. [laughter] MR.

NOTLEY: Better watch it, Julian. He's after your job. head: ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Revised Financial Plan MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, my question to the Provincial Treasurer is on the topic of discussion before us right now: the matter of government responsibility and accountability. This province, after 10 years of adminis­ tration . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Let's come to the question. MR. R. SPEAKER: I am, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Let's come to it a little faster. MR. R. SPEAKER: A little prewarning to kind of warm up the minister, Mr. Speaker. [interjections] The minister has some responsibility here.

Yesterday the minister an­ nounced a significant proposed deficit in the current fiscal year, by this government. Has the minister in place a strategy or plan by which this government will clean out the waste and the lack of direction in programming in this fiscal year, and that will bring about a balanced budget, not a deficit? MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, there is a deficit of some $400 million, as announced yesterday. I'd be pleased to receive additional suggestions from the hon. Leader of the Opposition, as to where he thinks cuts should be made.

Should they be made in the programs to assist and shield beginning farmers? Where should the

April 16, 1982 ALBERTA HANSARD 619 major cuts be made? We believe that the estimates pre­ sented to the Assembly cover the services and programs Albertans wish to have. They provide the necessary and appropriate shielding in this particular year. They provide the programs — for example, the petroleum industry and the activity plan that was announced. Therefore the esti­ mates and the programs are appropriate for this year. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary ques­ tion. The hon. minister speaks like a bureaucrat . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. [interjection] Would the hon. leader please resume his seat.

The first question was totally out of order. I let it go. MR. R. SPEAKER: They can't answer the question. MR. SPEAKER: The question was out of order regard­ less of the answer. It was just simply a debating question, which I'm sure a number of members in the Assembly would have liked to debate. If the hon. leader has a question which he wishes to ask directly to obtain factual information, without loading it with all kinds of innuen­ do — or, as sometimes said, 'insinnuendo' — would he proceed to it. In the meantime, we'll have a supplementa­ ry from the hon. Member for Olds-Didsbury. DR.

BUCK: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Why don't you just ask the government to get rid of the question period? That . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, my supplementary question . . . MR. SPEAKER: I've recognized the hon. Member for Olds-Didsbury. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, on . . . MR. SPEAKER: Would the hon. leader please resume his seat. MR. R. SPEAKER: Why should I even be here if I can't ask questions? Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The hon. Member for Olds-Didsbury has the floor. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. MR.

SPEAKER: Would the hon. leader please resume his seat. He's totally out of order. MR. R. SPEAKER: Why can't I ask a point of order? MR. SPEAKER: Would the hon. leader please resume his seat. I've explained the situation; I have nothing to add. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Come on, Ray. Sit down. MR. SPEAKER: I respectfully ask the hon. leader to resume his seat. MR. R. SPEAKER: If you want to protect the govern­ ment, go ahead. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The remark about the Chair protecting the government is also totally out of order.

As far as I am aware, there are very few places where, if a ruling or decision is made, the participants enjoy the privilege of chewing out the referee. That is particularly a rule in our parliaments. There is really no point of order before the House. The hon. Member for Olds-Didsbury has the floor. If the hon. Leader of the Opposition wishes to continue with sup- plementaries after that, I respectfully invite him to do so. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, on a point of . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Would the hon. member resume his seat. There is no point . . . DR.

BUCK: Is he asking a question or is he asking on a point of order, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: I understand that the hon. Member for Olds-Didsbury wishes to ask a supplementary question. I think he indicated that and, for that, he now has the floor. DR. BUCK: Not on a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: There is no point of order before . . . DR. BUCK: How do you know? We haven't said it. MR. SPEAKER: Because we have dealt with it, and we're not going to have a point of order on a point of order. MR. R. SPEAKER: We didn't even get a chance to explain it. MR. SINDLINGER: Mr.

Speaker, I believe I have the right to rise on a point of order, subsequent to 12(2) of our Standing Orders, in regard to the explanation of "reasons for his decision upon the request of a member." I would like to ask why, according to tradition and precedent, other members have been allowed to rise and ask supplementary questions upon an initial question . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The hon. member is right. Under the Standing Orders, he's perfectly entitled to ask me for my reasons. I thought I had given them, but I'll be more explicit. The first question was out of order.

The second ques­ tion was also out of order, as far as it went. I attempted to intervene. The hon. leader chose to persist. Under those circumstances, I must either recognize the persis­ tence in a breach of order or proceed with the question period, and that's what I'm doing. If the hon. leader wishes to come back with supplementaries which are in order, he's perfectly entitled to do that if he wishes. In the meantime, the hon. Member for Olds-Didsbury has the floor. MR. KESLER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to get along with the referee, but I would like to take a couple of slap shots. MR.

SPEAKER: Not at the referee.

620 ALBERTA HANSARD April 16, 1982 MR. KESLER: Not at the referee. My supplementary question is to the hon. Provincial Treasurer. Considering the additional debt being incurred by the programs an­ nounced by the provincial government, at this time has the hon. minister considered liquidating some of the government-controlled and -held assets, such as PWA and certain divisions of the Alberta Energy Company? MR. HYNDMAN: Not at this time, Mr. Speaker. With respect to the deficit we would be looking at, no decisions have yet been taken. We'd be looking at the various assets of the General Revenue Fund.

For example, Alberta Terminals is one asset which we would not recommend that the government sell. Essentially the options are twofold: one would be to borrow from or use the heritage fund, or perhaps to have one or more of the Crown corporations borrow in the capital markets. Decisions with respect to the ways the deficit would be covered will be made in the weeks and months ahead. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. Is the minister in a position to advise the Assembly, in light of both the minister's announcement yesterday as well as the Premier's statement . . .

I refer the minister to page 11 of the Premier's statement: Even with approximately $5.4 billion . . . being re­ tained by the industry under this program, Albertans will still receive an estimated six times that amount by way of oil and gas [revenues] during the next five years. Mr. Speaker, when can the Legislature expect a revised set of figures as to the receipts of the province of Alberta? The September 1 announcement indicated $64 billion. As I look here, it appears that that's $32 billion.

Has there been a change, in the magnitude of about $32 billion, in estimated receipts for the province of Alberta over the next five years? MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, I stress that the revised financial plan relates to this fiscal year. The question posed by the hon. member is essentially Question 127 on the Order Paper, to which the government response will be given in due course. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. We do have a statement by the hon. Premier, however.

Is the minister in a position to advise the Assembly that there has been an approximate drop of some $32 billion in the amount of money the government of Alberta antic­ ipates, under the present energy agreement? MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, I think it's proper that questions such as that, dealing with specific dollar figures, are dealt with in their whole context. Accordingly, when Question 127 on the Order Paper is dealt with, I think that is the time at which a proper response to the information requested will be made. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question.

Is the Provincial Treasurer in a position to assure the House that the information on page 11, with respect to the receipts of the province of Alberta, is accurate, and that there will in fact be a major drop, the exact amount of which we'll find out when the minister responds to 127, but that the approximate amount is correct? MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, certainly all the state­ ments and notations in the April 13 announcement on the activity plan are correct. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary ques­ tion. In 1981 and '82, the Provincial Treasurer asked Albertans to lower expectations.

In light of the deficit, could the minister indicate what actions are taken in the 1982-83 fiscal budget to lower the expectations of gov­ ernment and take out some of the government waste? Does this government have a strategy in place, or is government just going to wander on, as it is at the present time? MR. HYNDMAN: I'll ignore the editorial comments, Mr. Speaker. There is clearly a continuing need for reasonable expectations. However, by way of being re­ sponsive to Albertans, this government feels that this year is a unique and special one.

The budget therefore intro­ duced initiatives involving some $5 billion worth of capi­ tal works. We feel that we as a government have an obligation to try to assist in shielding Albertans from the extra difficulties of this particular economic year. The budget did that. We believe the expenditures and capital expenditures in the budget were proper last month, and we believe they continue to be proper ones. Mr. Speaker, I think it's very easy to suggest that there should be cuts. When a person makes that suggestion, where should the cuts be made? Let's just take 10 per cent.

Where are $800 million of cuts the opposition leader suggests Albertans should not have? [interjections] We'd like to hear it. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary ques­ tion to the Provincial Treasurer. More government ex­ penditure causes greater inflation. In light of that eco­ nomic fact, could the minister indicate what steps are being taken with regard to controlling inflation in the province of Alberta? Along with that, Mr. Speaker, could the hon. Provincial Treasurer indicate . . . MR. SPEAKER: Perhaps we could have them one at a time. MR. R. SPEAKER: . . . will be made in the . . . MR.

SPEAKER: May I respectfully ask the hon. leader to ask his questions one at a time. MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, members realize that the inflation issue is a Canadian and North American phenomenon, as well as an Alberta one. I suggest that if we look at the record over the last 10 years, the inflation rate in Alberta was roughly similar to, or close to, the national inflation rate. Again I think that the budget we have proposed, which provides services for Albertans, is the right, proper, and balanced one for this time. If the hon. member has suggestions, I'd be pleased to hear them. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary ques­ tion to the hon. Provincial Treasurer, with regard to the 30 per cent allocated to the Heritage Savings Trust Fund. Is the government considering changing that percentage, in light of the deficit that is facing us as Albertans? MR. HYNDMAN: As I mentioned, Mr. Speaker, no decisions have yet been taken. We are in a strong finan­

April 16, 1982 ALBERTA HANSARD 621 cial position. We have the Heritage Savings Trust Fund. As I've indicated, either borrowing from the heritage fund or using part of it is one option. The other option would be to have some borrowing from the capital markets, or perhaps a combination of those. Those decisions will be made in the weeks and months ahead, and we will then see the way the deficit will be covered. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary ques­ tion.

Could the Provincial Treasurer indicate why this partial economic resurgence plan, which was announced this week, could not have been contained in the total budget of March 18? Why was it announced at this time, rather than in the total budget of March 18, so we could have seen the whole picture at that time? MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, it was a matter of timing. For example, I think it was necessary to have discussions with the oil and gas industry, as appropriate, to make sure their voice was heard. That was done. It wasn't completed in time for the budget.

As the budget speech indicated on two occasions when it was given on March 18, we said that further adjustments would be made down the road, with respect to the royalty situation generally and the service industry in particular. So a warning was given at that time. Indeed this activity plan, as announced, was the first major thrust of the resurgence program. If it appears that other modifications will have to be made in order to respond to Albertans in need during this difficult year, then we will look at them and announce them as appropriate. MR. KESLER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question.

Has the hon. minister considered a policy whereby gov­ ernment services would be cut back and a greater per­ centage of that work contracted out to the private sector, to alleviate some of the costs incurred by government and allow those jobs to be put back into the private sector? MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, a constant review of that is done. In fact, in a number of departments there has been a very significant increase in the amount of work done by the private sector, as opposed to 10 or 11 years ago. My colleague the Minister of Government Services could elaborate on that.

Something we should properly always be alert to is to ensure that the private sector does those things which government is not in the best position to do. That is a constant policy of the government. If the hon. member has suggestions, we look forward to seeing them. DR. BUCK: Tory hack make-work program. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary ques­ tion, for clarification of earlier answers.

Has the minister in place a team of officials or ministers who will examine all functional areas of government, to look at possible areas to cut back and reduce the potential deficit we are facing in the fiscal year 1982-83? As of today, is there a deliberate plan that involves a specified group of people in place? MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, that is an ongoing activ­ ity at a number of levels: the caucus of this government, the cabinet, the Treasury Department, and each minister in each department. [interjection] In other words, if there are suggestions with respect to improvements, we'd like to hear them.

We're listening to Albertans for various sug­ gestions. Where, in this budget document, are the signifi­ cant major cuts the hon. opposition leader has? We can assure you that there is a streamlined operation going on now. We look forward to new advice. MR. R. SPEAKER: You don't listen any more. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Has the hon. leader a second question? Public Health Act Amendments MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, my second question is to the Minister of Social Services and Community Health. With regard to Bill 30, people are concerned that the minister is going to peek into medical files.

Has the minister reviewed that amendment to Bill 30, and will any changes be made in the discussion of the Bill in the Legislature? MR. BOGLE: Mr. Speaker, I welcome the opportunity to comment in the House on Bill 30, as I have done outside the Assembly. When the Bill reaches second read­ ing, it's my intention to indicate a number of proposed amendments. One amendment will certainly be with re­ gard to the

section on confidentiality of information. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary ques­ tion. Could the minister indicate what plan of action will be recommended to the Legislature in Committee of the Whole? Will the

section be withdrawn or amended? MR. BOGLE: When we get to second reading, Mr. Speaker, I will be pleased to outline, in some detail, the specific amendments proposed for consideration during Committee of the Whole. At this time, I can indicate to the hon. member that for some months we have been discussing the proposed legislation with the Health Unit Association. Once the Bill was tabled in the Assembly, we initiated discussions with the College of Physicians and Surgeons, specifically on the confidentiality provision. We're also working with other professional organizations to receive their input.

So when the Bill comes back for second reading, we'll be in a position to indicate certain amendments to be proposed during Committee of the Whole. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary ques­ tion. Could the minister indicate the government's posi­ tion at the present time, with regard to that clause? What recommendation is being made to the professional groups by the government? MR. BOGLE: Mr. Speaker, I've made it very clear out­ side the Assembly that the present wording in the Bill is not in keeping with what was approved by the govern­ ment caucus.

At this time, there is no need for some provisions suggested in the Bill, for information to be obtained either by the minister or officials within the department on behalf of the minister. I will be very pleased to go into those in some detail at the appropriate time. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. In view of the rather extraordinary nature of the power the Legislature is being asked to vote in first reading — no doubt changes will be announced in committee stage — can the minister explain why the government felt it

622 ALBERTA HANSARD April 16, 1982 was necessary in the first place to have that kind of power to look into files? MR. SPEAKER: I have some doubt about the propriety of the question, but I suppose it's better to come down on the side of latitude. In effect, the question is asking the minister to debate the merits of a . . . MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: If the hon. member would just hold his seat for a moment, until I finish. The question is asking why something is being done. "Why" means giving rea­ sons, and giving reasons is the essence of debate.

So, in effect, the minister is being asked or challenged — which­ ever way you wish to look at it — to justify a provision in a Bill. That is definitely the function of debating the Bill. As I said a moment ago, however, notwithstanding my misgivings about whether the question is in order, the minister should be given an opportunity to answer if he wishes. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, just on a point of order, before we go any further on this. I think one has to be very careful about a very literal

interpretation of Beau- chesne with respect to reasons. As I look over the ques­ tions asked in this House over the 11 years I've been a member, the vast majority have been answered by minis­ ters giving reasons — quite properly so. It seems to me that if we're going to apply Beauchesne literally, the hon. Leader of the Opposition is absolutely correct: the whole question period would be foiled. The question period is an opportunity to elicit information, and that informa­ tion will very frequently include reasons.

I say to you, sir, that a narrow stricture would not be in the interests of the people of Alberta and would not fulfil your role as a servant of the House. MR. SPEAKER: With great respect, the hon. member has included in his argument a fundamental and fatal flaw. It's true that reasons are often given, especially when debating questions or questions that have barbs in them are asked. They obviously invite justification. Sometimes that requires reasons as well as facts.

Here we are dealing with a Bill, so let's not totally lose sight of the nature of the question: it is asking for justification for one of the provisions of a Bill. That is so eminently the exclusive function of second reading of the Bill that, as I mentioned a moment ago, the question is out of order, notwithstanding that I was proposing to recognize the minister to answer it. MR. BOGLE: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate your comments. But since the question has been put, I would very much appreciate an opportunity to respond on this one occa­ sion, without setting a precedent. MR.

SPEAKER: Under the circumstances, it seems to me that simple fairness demands that the minister be given an opportunity to accept the invitation to give reasons. MR. BOGLE: Mr. Speaker, may I have some latitude? Under the present public health legislation and the Health Unit Act, there is no confidentiality of information provi­ sion.

Therefore, when officials working for the local boards of health and the health units across the province — and I'm thinking primarily of public health nurses — want to follow up in their ongoing work with mothers and newborn infants, say, they are not able to obtain from the hospitals the records of newborn infants, be­ cause there is protection for confidentiality of informa­ tion under the hospitals legislation. So the original re­ quest came from various health units, that when the Act was amended, a provision be made for confidentiality of information.

That's the primary reason for the section, and that was the thrust I presented to my colleagues in government caucus. At the same time, and to a much lesser degree, there is an ongoing need by the department, which provides the funding and monitors the programs operated by our health units, to review standards of care. The

section in question relates to standards of care. It is not my belief, nor the view of my senior officials, that we in any way need to have the kind of information drafted in Bill 30, which would allow the minister or officials designated in writing by the minister to look at specific records and/or charts now part of the professional confidentiality be­ tween a health professional and his or her client.

Therefore, in consultation with the College of Physi­ cians and Surgeons and other professional bodies, we are presently looking at proposed amendments which would more clearly indicate the intent of the government and would allow the department to carry on its work in terms of monitoring standards of care, but which will not in­ clude the examination of any records or charts that are now confidential and part of the professionalism between the medical practitioner and his or her patient. Cavanagh Report DR. BUCK: Mr.

Speaker, my question to the Minister of Social Services and Community Health has to do with the report on foster care. Can the minister indicate if that report is completed, and if he has received the report? MR. BOGLE: Mr. Speaker, I assume the hon. member is referring to the Cavanagh Board of Review. No, Mr. Speaker. As the hon. member will recall, when the order in council creating the Cavanagh Board of Review was passed just over two years ago, no specific time-lines were placed on Mr. Justice Cavanagh or the other members of the board. At the time, we indicated that we would welcome interim reports.

No reports, either interim or final, have been received to date. I might add that as we have earlier said, once the report has been received it will be made public. Vehicle Registrations MR. MANDEVILLE: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the hon. Solicitor General. Has the Solicitor General received any reports from areas that are selling licence plates where they discontinued selling them at the treas­ ury branches; in other words, where the private busi­ nesses are selling automobile licence plates at the present time? MR. HARLE: I'm sorry. I could hardly hear the ques­ tion, Mr. Speaker. MR. MANDEVILLE: Mr.

Speaker, in some cases the treasury branches have discontinued the sale of automo­ bile licence plates, and other vendors are selling them. The question is: has the minister had any reports on how the sale of licence plates has been going in the areas that

April 16, 1982 ALBERTA HANSARD 623 have been selling licence plates other than in treasury branches? MR. HARLE: No I haven't, Mr. Speaker. MR. MANDEVILLE: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Is it the eventual intent for all treasury branches to discontinue the sale of automobile licence plates and put it into the hands of other businesses to be the vendors? MR. HARLE: No.

However, as I indicated earlier in the House, where treasury branches found that they would like to free up space within the branch because of the volume of their activities, they have approached the de­ partment with a view to changing the system. It has involved engaging private issuers, of course. MR. MANDEVILLE: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Could the hon. Solicitor General indicate the criteria for determining who is going to handle licence plates where the treasury branches discontinue their sale?

For example, I'm thinking of some cases where insurance agents are now handling the sale of automobile licence plates. I think there's a bit of unfair competition when you have several insurance agents in a small town, and one of the agents is able to be the vendor of automobile licence plates. What criteria does the minister use in cases like this? MR. HARLE: Mr. Speaker, I covered that question sev­ eral weeks ago in the Assembly.

Basically we want whoever is interested to be able to supply these factors: security for the tabs, proper accounting for the funds, adequate space to serve the public, to be able to provide the hours of service we would like to see, and adequate parking. We have a variety of private issuers. In some cases, it is insurance agencies, sometimes real estate agen­ cies. Other private-sector businesses are carrying on that service, and it varies very greatly, depending on the community and on who is interested in taking on that type of service. MR. KESLER: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.

At the present time, is the hon. minister engaged in a program to turn over the sales of licence plates complete­ ly to the private sector? MR. SPEAKER: The question was previously asked, but perhaps the answer was missed. MR. HARLE: Mr. Speaker, I've tried to indicate: not completely. It really depends on the community, whether there are people interested. In some communities, for example, it might be the village office. We are increasing the demands upon the private issuers because of the necessity to have fairly accurate information for use by law enforcement agencies.

For that reason, if they're in­ terested we are insisting on the private issuers taking training and annually updating their capacity to serve the public. MR. R. SPEAKER: A supplementary question. In cases where the problem is brought to the minister's attention that providing the licensing outlet to one insurance agen­ cy creates a situation where there's unfair business oppor­ tunity relative to other local agencies — cases that can be well documented — has the minister considered allowing other persons to have licence outlets in that specific town?

Has the minister considered multiple outlets under those circumstances? MR. HARLE: We haven't done so, primarily because of volume. The private issuers — whoever takes on the function — like to have a volume of activity that makes it worth while. For that reason, I suggest that in the smaller communities it can really only be handled by one private issuer. MR. MANDEVILLE: One final supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Could the hon. Solicitor General indicate if there has been an increase in the amount of mail-in licence plate applications, as a result of changing the vendorship for automobile licence plates? MR.

HARLE: Yes, there has. I can get a further update. As of about a week ago, we were into 370,000, as far as numbers are concerned. That compares to about 260,000 last year. Suncor — Safety Orders MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct this ques­ tion to the hon. Minister responsible for Workers' Health, Safety and Compensation. What is the policy of the department with respect to safety inspectors issuing orders to correct potentially hazardous situations affect­ ing the safety of workers, without providing a compliance date?

I raise the question with respect to certain orders issued to Suncor that did not have a compliance date. Is there an overall policy concerning the fact that the forms have compliance dates attached to them, that the inspec­ tors don't put down compliance dates? MR. DIACHUK: Mr. Speaker, when a compliance date is not issued, the position is that that order is to be implemented immediately. It doesn't give the employer 30 days or 90 days, which so often is also a criticism. I have been advised by my officials that that was the intent in the specific order the hon. Member for Spirit River- Fairview refers to.

The safety officer for the Fort McMurray area was in fact working with Suncor on trying to remedy the faults immediately. MR. NOTLEY: I should just point out that I have four orders here, not one. With respect to the order involving the furnace 8F4, where a compliance date of February 11 had been given, the company had not met the compliance date. What is the policy with respect to the question of prosecution when compliance dates are not met? I note that the form says that offenders will be prosecuted. Is there an overall policy, in terms of lag time for com­ pliance dates?

Are they absolute certainties, or is that totally a discretionary matter which government some­ times proceeds with and sometimes doesn't? MR. DIACHUK: Mr. Speaker, at all times employers are faced with delivery of equipment to correct the deficiency. My staff must take that into consideration. In the one the hon. member refers to, I'm advised that the firm was unable to receive the material and equipment by the compliance date issued. The safety officer has been aware of this and, as recently as yesterday, I was advised that the portion of the plant referred to in that order has been voluntarily shut down.

624 ALBERTA HANSARD April 16, 1982 MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. With respect to that particular shut-down the minister alluded to, it's my understanding that the company is attempting to rectify the problem with the furnace igni­ tion system. Can the minister assure the House that during the shut-down, all the other problems with respect to safety that have been brought to the attention of the government as a result of the company/union assessment of the situation will in fact also be remedied? MR. DIACHUK: Mr. Speaker, that is the intent.

May I just assure the hon. member and members of this Assem­ bly that the employer in question, Suncor, has a very effective safety program. At all times, the Occupational Health and Safety Act is there. The worker has protec­ tion. It's a two-way program, and the co-operation of the union and the workers is required in order to provide a safe work place.

At all times, in the specific areas the hon. member refers to, the staff of the occupational health and safety division will endeavor to co-operate to review and have ordered that before that specific furnace and other furnaces are relit, a safety procedure will be undertaken to place the area in a proper, safe condition. I just want to indicate that the recent fatality that occurred was not a result of relighting a furnace, and it is being investigated by my officials. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question.

Has the minister's department instructed the company to correct the situation in the powerhouse, where sulphur dioxide readings in the work area have been recorded up to 125 times the permissible standards under the Occupa­ tional Health and Safety Act? MR. DIACHUK: Mr. Speaker, that is also being re­ viewed. That information is apparently in the hands of the union; it wasn't provided to us. My officials were endeavoring to get their readings, to review them with the information the industry and they have. Hazardous Waste Disposal MR. KESLER: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the hon. Minister of the Environment.

As a result of the plebiscite taken in the county of Beaver, will the hon. minister assure this House that democratic policy will be observed and that that plant will not be built in that county? MR. COOKSON: Mr. Speaker, I should say at the onset that the Crown is not necessarily bound by municipal authority by-laws. However, I have had brief discussions with the county — in fact, some of the officials will be in today — and I have left that kind of judgment decision to the local authority. In view of the majority vote, my opinion is that I would recommend that we not proceed.

ORDERS OF THE DAY head: COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY [Mr. Appleby in the Chair] MR. CHAIRMAN: Would the Committee of Supply please come to order. Department of Municipal Affairs MR. CHAIRMAN: Does the minister want to make some preliminary remarks? MR. MOORE: Mr. Chairman, just a few very brief comments outlining areas in which there have been some relatively major and important changes in the budget of the Department of Municipal Affairs.

First of all, I might make reference to Vote 2, the municipal debenture rebate program, which shows an increase 98.9 per cent during the current fiscal year, doubling from the previous fiscal year. Of course, members are aware of the manner in which that budget is arrived at. It's really a result of decisions made the previous year, with respect to the level of interest subsidization. Members will recall that a cou­ ple of weeks ago, I announced in the House a new program for the current fiscal year, which will reflect the budget in 1983-84.

Under Vote 3, a rather larger than normal increase in the senior citizens' renter assistance program is based on our judgment that additional senior citizens will be apply­ ing for that program this year, as it becomes more and more well known to senior citizens throughout the prov­ ince. The amount there is maintained at the level set last year, $1,000 for senior citizens renting accommodation unsubsidized by the government and $500 for subsidized accommodation. Vote 4, grants to regional planning commissions, is up 16.2 per cent during the current fiscal year.

That reflects our desire to ensure that regional planning commissions have the tools to put in place regional plans required by the end of 1982, and to make some progress in that area. Finally, in Vote 5, the administration of improvement districts shows an increase of 68.6 per cent. I hasten to add that that includes more than improvement districts and should perhaps have been expanded upon in the estimate books. It's the administration of improvement districts and Metis settlements.

Members will recall that some time ago, the eight Metis settlements in Alberta were transferred from the Department of Social Services and Community Health to Municipal Affairs. The in­ crease reflects the operation of those Metis settlements, in addition to a major initiative on Metis settlements with respect to improvements in infrastructure, water and sew­ er, and some additional funds to provide an initial start on improving incomes on Metis settlements by providing funds for land and agricultural development generally. Mr.

Chairman, no doubt members might have a num­ ber of questions on various parts of the Municipal Af­ fairs' budget. Very briefly, those are the highlights in terms of the expenditure changes from the last fiscal year. I'd be pleased to answer any questions as they arise. MR. MAGEE: Mr. Chairman, I have a concern as the MLA for Red Deer constituency, which probably all members know is a rapidly growing city. There seems to be a continuing request by the county surrounding the city to develop a proliferation of industrial parks. This is now spreading to the north, west, and south.

It seems to me that some measure of control is necessary so these industrial parks are used for the intent intended; that is, for large acreages to be utilized by commercial- and industrial-type operators who have a necessity for large acreages of land for large storage areas, with a minimum number of people employed; for example, farm equip­ ment, which in some cases takes as much as 320 square feet of land to park one machine. This is perfectly justi­

April 16, 1982 ALBERTA HANSARD 625 fied. Other things, such as a brick plant, which has environmental problems if located within the centre of a city, are perfectly justified in industrial parks. However, it's my concern and the concern of the city council and the administration of the city of Red Deer that this situation seems to be getting out of hand with many smaller businesses that could be accommodated within the city itself.

The problem is that there are now repeated requests for extension of sewer and water lines, taking advantage, shall we say, of the services supplied, not only those necessary for everyday convenience of liv­ ing but wanting use of other facilities within the city. Of course this increases the taxpayer rate in the city. As time goes on, if this is allowed to continue to the degree it is, I'm concerned that we're going to get in­ creased requests for annexation of those areas.

Those municipalities will, in effect, lose much of their tax base by prostituting, if you will, the proper use of the industri­ al zoned areas in industrial parks. I would appreciate some comments from the minister on whether there is any tightening of rules in regard to the type of businesses that can be located in industrial parks surrounding a city and, if it is necessary to keep moving in this direction, what forms of assistance the cities can be accommodated by.

We seem to be in a donnybrook of questions and months of negotiations and general confusion between the county and the city to finally reach an accommodation for the supply of serv­ ices. It's difficult to run a tax base when an added load is continually requested of the city to supply its services without proper remuneration from the surrounding coun­ ty. I see this as a problem for the minister and the department. I'd like to find some resolution to some of these problems. As an MLA, I'm continually being plagued with requests by city hall.

How can they live with the problem and face their taxpayers with these extra costs? I'd be most happy if the minister would like to expand on that a little. MR. HYLAND: Mr. Chairman, I would like the minister to comment on the percentage increase of unconditional grants to the municipalities. Does a town receive the same percentage increase in an unconditional grant as a city does? Some stories are going around that towns and villages will receive 9 to 10 per cent and cities adjacent to them are going to receive 23 per cent. I wonder if the minister would comment on that.

It seems to me these figures are a long way apart. It wouldn't seem right that one group would get less than half the other, unless some special circumstances are involved. I believe the minister commented on an extension of a year to put a regional plan in force.

I would like him to relate if the regional plans are to be a combination of the plans of the towns, cities, et cetera, in the region, put together and accepted by all the municipal councils and the elected people — and I stress the elected people — of the regional planning group and not something that's superimposed on them by the regional planning authori­ ty, that is not entirely related to the local plans accepted by the various towns and villages in the region. MRS. EMBURY: Mr.

Chairman, I'd like to add very briefly to the comments of the Member for Cypress and ask the minister to expand a little on the unconditional grants given to all municipalities across the province. Of course my main interest in asking for this clarification is basically in regard to the amount of grant received by the city of Calgary. I would specifically like to know if there is any mechanism built in that unconditional grant to the city of Calgary that allows for many of the unique problems faced by Calgary.

I'm primarily looking at the terrific demands for services in that city, with the in­ creased rapid growth in our population and at specific projects the city has to consider in regard to transporta­ tion. I would appreciate it very much if the minister would elaborate on this program, and if he would he also inform the Assembly if he has had any direct contact, or received any delegation, from the city of Calgary express­ ing their particular concerns in regard to the needs in Calgary.

The other area I would like the minister to expand upon very briefly is in regard to the municipal debenture interest rebate program. I realize the minister made a ministerial statement in the Assembly last week, or a couple of weeks ago. But I really would like clarified once again, in more concrete terms, what the change in policy will mean for new programs. When a municipality now seeks new funding, how will it affect long-term financing for a municipality? I assume there has been some indica­ tion from the municipalities of how this will affect them.

One can certainly see from the large amount of the vote — and I believe the minister referred to this in his opening statements; it's doubled — that this has to have horrendous implications from the government point of view in the next few years. I'd like the minister to comment on the trend of this large amount. Over the next few years, are we going to see such large increases being spent for this interest rebate program? Thank you. MR. WEISS: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to address a few remarks to the minister. Perhaps he could clarify a few issues of concern we have in the constituency. In particu­ lar, Mr.

Minister, I refer to the tax situation that's recent­ ly occurred in the Gregoire Lake park subdivision area. It's a leased-land area. There are some 60 residents on leased lots for cabin owners. We believe the tax situation has gotten extremely out of hand, in that it has recently risen from some $300 to $850. We find those amounts very significant and would like some explanation why those large increases have taken place. We believe there is some discussion with regard to the allotment of the school tax portion in that area. Perhaps the minister could clarify that.

I would like to comment as well with regard to some programs that fall under the jurisdiction of the minister, particularly in the remote areas. I'm referring to the Janvier, Conklin, Chip Lake areas, as well as in the Metis settlements in the Caslan-Kikino area. We have a great deal of concern with regard to fire protection. Perhaps the minister would advise the Assembly and give us an update on what is happening in that particular area. I think it's very important in that we mustn't let it fall between the stools, so to speak.

We have to ensure that fire prevention is a necessity and is very important to the way of life and to protect the lives of all concerned in those areas. At the same time, I have a similar concern with regard to potable water in some of these remote areas. I en­ courage the minister to proceed with feasibility studies, particularly in the Metis settlements and the outlying areas: Anzac, MacKay, Caslan, Kikino. Mr. Chairman, I have some concern as well with regard to assistance grants that have been passed on through the improvement districts in some areas. I'm sure

626 ALBERTA HANSARD April 16, 1982 the minister is aware of ongoing development and growth, in particular the rapid growth area of Fort McMurray. But I would like to apprise him once again of the situation and how serious the matter is. Some of the communities just can't exist on today's tax base and the grants available. People come into these communities and are not prepared to wait for the ongoing growth. They demand the services — recreational and cultural facilities, the amenities they would have in urban centres — and they demand them now. They come into the areas and feel they should have them now.

The tax base is just not broad enough to cover this. While the major portion of the tax revenue goes directly to the improvement districts, we certainly feel that where plants are located in the proximity of major centres, the minister would perhaps review the concern we have. While the cities provide the basic needs for these people in the way of amenities, we feel there should perhaps be a larger concern in transfer­ ring some of these tax dollars to enable the communities to provide the services requested.

I realize it's a problem, but I believe the minister should perhaps use this as a guideline for future growth areas. Perhaps we could avoid such pitfalls as occurred in the past. We're very thankful to the minister for recogniz­ ing this and allowing the city of Fort McMurray some extended tax transfers from the improvement district. But we certainly wish to encourage and have him review the ongoing needs as well. Mr. Minister, I have another concern in regard to the community of Fort Chipewyan. While it's the oldest community in Alberta, it still lacks essential services, such as a road to link the community.

I realize that becomes a transportation issue but, in the meantime, the problems related to the community fall under the jurisdiction of the Municipal Affairs Department. The improvement district is working very hard in this area to address some of the needs, and some ongoing commitments have just taken place with regard to the community centre. In more recent light, we had an announcement with regard to a courthouse. There's a federally sponsored health centre in the community.

But we still have to address what some people would- refer to as everyday occurrences; that is, buying essential services and goods, such as food and milk. I can appreciate that the Alberta Alcoholism and Drug Abuse Commission brings in training programs to assist people in drinking.

Whereas alcohol is still available on a cost-free basis to fly into the community, such essential items as milk and groceries have to be paid for at great cost and expense. So people have to take their priorities and say, is it cheaper to buy a bottle of beer versus a bottle of pop? I'm not saying that that's what children are doing, but that's a fact within the community. I don't think we're doing anything to discourage it. I really think we should do more to encourage supplying goods, serv­ ices, and essential food commodities to that area at a more realistic price to be competitive with the outlying areas.

I realize that people have chosen to live there for their way of life, and it is their prerogative. But I don't believe they should be penalized because we do not provide a transportation link for that community. I request that perhaps the minister and Municipal Affairs could co­ ordinate or give some direction to the improvement dis­ trict. A study could be made of costs of goods to that community, and perhaps some way found of bringing in the goods on a bulk basis or a grant basis to assist people, especially where we have what we call Alberta-wide poli­ cies in regard to welfare, social assistance, and others.

Those are not met on a remote area basis, so the dollar actually doesn't go nearly as far as it should in that particular region. Therefore people are unable to get what a lot of people refer to as the necessities of life. In some cases, good basic food is a luxury item, because a lot of people can't afford the cost in that area. I would certainly appreciate any assistance or advice the minister could give me in that regard. I'm certainly appreciative of the work the improvement district is doing in the area. We've got some good programs going.

I recently had the opportunity of spend­ ing a day in Caslan with the minister, and opened a new garment factory through the assistance of the department. We believe that's a step in the right direction, to help those communities become self-sufficient, to have gainful employment, and to help the overall area. I encourage the department to continue to work with the Metis Associa­ tion to help turn those communities around, to have more people gainfully employed and assist them in their management, particularly in the funding and guidance of their communities.

With those few remarks, I welcome the response from the minister. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. TOPOLNISkY: Mr. Chairman, I have two ques­ tions of the minister. Firstly, the county of Smoky Lake does not have a broad tax base; it has no industrial assessment. Most Crown properties are subject to grants in lieu of taxes, but not the Pine Ridge Forest Nursery, which is located on Crown property. On behalf of the county, my request is that the forest nursery be subject to grants in lieu of taxes. This will assist the county in holding down a deficit budget.

Secondly, under the Alberta senior citizens' renter as­ sistance program, senior citizens 65 years of age or older who rent accommodation for 120 days or longer may be eligible for financial assistance. I refer to a paragraph where "two persons married to one another may make only ONE application between them", yet each pays a maximum rent set by the Alberta government. Together they qualify for only $500. But two people living together who are not married each qualify for $500. This appears to be an inequity, and is disturbing to married couples.

I ask that the minister review this policy with a view to correcting this inequity. MR. CLARK: Mr. Chairman, I would like to take issue with the Member for Red Deer on industrial parks. I think the rural areas need as much economic develop­ ment as some of the cities.

There is a great deal of dissati­ sfaction in the rural areas, especially around the area of the Calgary regional plan, where I understand the dissati­ sfaction has now risen to the point where they are going to ask — or maybe they have already asked — the minister to pull out of the Calgary regional plan and form the rural regional plan with all the members in the rural municipality. They don't feel they are getting fair repre­ sentation in the regional plan.

I would like to hear some of his comments on whether he thinks a rural regional plan wouldn't be an asset to some of the people and communities in that area. I would also like him to comment on the assessment of farm homes now going on in Starland and Wheatland. I'd like to know the policy of the government. I understood it was to be mainly a drive-by assessment, but it seems it is not. I would like to get his comments on that. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

April 16, 1982 ALBERTA HANSARD 627 MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member for Cypress, in round two. MR. HYLAND: Mr. Chairman, I apologize for the se­ cond round. I must improve my handwriting, because I can't read my notes while I'm standing. MRS. CRIPPS: He's right; he can't. It's a disgrace. MR. HYLAND: At least there's one advantage to it. My colleague from Drayton Valley doesn't know what I'm going to say, because she can't read it either. To deal with annexation — and I realize this is under the jurisdiction of the Local Authorities Board.

I'm think­ ing especially of the proposed annexation between Re- dcliff and Medicine Hat, where there's a very narrow strip of ID No. 1 between the town and the city. With possible industrial expansion into that boundary and annexation by the city, it creates some difficulty. Redcliff will un­ doubtedly provide a fair portion of the living accommo­ dation for people who find jobs in this expansion, if and when it takes place. The town and the school board have to provide facilities for these families and students, with­ out a share of the industrial tax base. They just have the housing tax base.

I would appreciate the minister's comments on that. I realize that some special considera­ tions were made during the Edmonton and area annexa­ tion. I wonder if that could be looked at in the same way in this case. MR. CHAIRMAN: Does the minister wish to respond now? MR. MOORE: Thanks very much, Mr. Chairman. The hon. Member for Red Deer made some comments with respect to rural industrial parks, and those were com­ mented on by the hon. Member for Drumheller as well.

More than a year ago, on January 27, 1981, I sent to all municipalities and regional planning authorities, as well as to all MLAs, a copy of a rural industrial land-use policy which had been endorsed by the Alberta planning board and my office. It contains the criteria we believe is necessary to resolve problems with respect to industrial development in rural areas, particularly adjacent to urban centres.

Needless to say, that doesn't solve all the prob­ lems that may exist between an urban and a rural municipality, but it's about all that I as minister responsi­ ble for the planning legislation can do at this time, except to say that it will require generally substantive support for regional plans before they are approved by my office. In that regard, I will be meeting with all the regional planning commissions for two days next week, and will try to get some co-operation among their members with respect to this important matter. However, in concluding, it is not by any means a one-sided matter. The hon.

Member for Red Deer should know that, generally speaking, the view of the city council of Red Deer is that there should not be any development in the rural area with respect to industrial parks. The view of the rural municipality generally is that it's none of the city's business. There has to be some give and take. I think the onus to sit down and have some discussions that will result in a reasonable policy rests at least as heavily on the City of Red Deer as it does on the rural municipality.

To move to the development of regional plans, in Calgary within the last month I released to rural munici- palities that were there revised guidelines for regional plan development, which have since been forwarded to regional planning commissions throughout the province. It's my intention, probably next week in Jasper, to pro­ vide to regional planning authorities a draft regional plan, which I'm hopeful will help in the development of regional plans required, by our legislation, by the end of 1982.

Very recently I received a copy, dated April 13, of the Battle River Regional Planning Commission draft plan, as it was submitted to the Alberta Planning Board for approval. The covering letter indicates that this particular plan was adopted by a unanimous vote of the commission members at a meeting on March 24.

I will be commend­ ing this document, which is only some 40 pages in length, to other planning commissions throughout the province as an example that might generally be followed in terms of developing a regional plan that provides a fair degree of authority to municipalities, as was envisioned in the 1977 Planning Act, and acts as a framework for good planning, rather than a specific document that provides regulation and control which, in my view, more properly belongs in a general municipal plan and in land-use by-laws.

If I could move to the matter of unconditional grants to municipalities, the overall increase in the budget this year is some 11 per cent. Those funds are split amongst municipalities in Alberta on a formula basis, designed some years ago, that has been in place during each of the last three years. It's related to their need. The formula involves assessment per capita and other matters relating to need that we think are important in allocating those unconditional grants.

Needless to say, if we hadn't had such extensive increases in the interest subsidization pro­ gram, it might have been possible to provide greater overall increases in this matter. This relates to the questions posed by the Member for Cypress as well as the Member for Calgary North West. On average, cities throughout Alberta received an 11.2 per cent increase, slightly above the average. However, the cities of Calgary and Edmonton each received 10 per cent. On average, towns throughout Alberta received a 10 per cent increase in their unconditional grants.

Villages, summer villages, counties, and municipal districts, as well as special areas, were all less than 10 per cent in terms of their overall increase, while improvement districts, which is a much smaller amount, received an average increase in total dollars of 21.5 per cent. The figures vary from a 0 per cent increase to 50 or 60 per cent in some cases, depending on how municipalities were affected by the formula. I'd be pleased to provide — I guess I don't need to provide, Mr.

Chairman, because the exact amount each municipality has received is in the detailed estimates book, although I don't recall whether the previous year's was there, in which case that would be required to figure out the difference. I think the formula is fair. However, under consideration right now is wheth­ er it should be altered for the next fiscal year. With respect to Edmonton and Calgary, the amounts are not calculated by the formula. We simply take an arbitrary figure, which in the last three years has been the amount of the overall increase provided in this vote. That's what occurred in 1982-83.

I'll just talk a bit about unconditional grants, in partic­ ular grants with respect to transportation and urban transportation. That matter is really more properly ad­ dressed by my colleague the Minister of Transportation. I haven't had direct discussions with either of the metropo­ litan areas with respect to urban transportation, because

628 ALBERTA HANSARD April 16, 1982 it is an ongoing matter between the Minister of Transpor­ tation, his department, and committees he has establish­ ed. However, I want to indicate that earlier this week, I had discussions with the executive of the Association of Urban Municipalities, which I believe included two repre­ sentatives from the city of Calgary — at least one — with respect to the interest stabilization program, the an­ nouncement I made a week ago, and the future of that program. Members were asking what the expectations are.

The budget this year is close to the $87 million range, as members will see by the estimate book — $86.4 mil­ lion, an increase almost double 1981-82. The policies out­ lined by me in this Assembly on March 30 will set the tone for the budget for the 1983-84 fiscal year. What we do in this particular year doesn't affect this year's budget, because the interest subsidy is not payable till the first anniversary of a debenture.

Based on reasonable expectations of increased borrow­ ings, it now appears that the interest subsidy budget for the next fiscal year will be about $150 million, again getting close to doubling this year's budget. By 1986, the five-year projection — just so members are aware of some of our concerns with respect to this program — would get us into the area of an annual interest subsidy payment from Municipal Affairs of about $350 million a year, with a total liability to the government of Alberta in excess of $6.5 billion over the life of these debentures.

So we're talking about very extensive figures when we talk about subsidizing interest rates by 6 per cent per annum, from the current rate down to 11 per cent. That's not to say we should not continue to do it, but I expressed a concern to the Urban Municipalities Associa­ tion that I want to express here. It's simply this: is an interest subsidy of this amount, which will next year — if it hasn't already done so — next year be the major portion of Municipal Affairs budget, the right way to assist the municipalities? I suggest the answer to the question is probably: not if it's too extensive. Here's what occurs.

We have a plan of assistance to municipalities, involving interest subsidies, that municipalities can only take advantage of if they borrow. I believe it is more appropriate to put the larger part of our dollars to municipal assistance in a way in which they can take advantage of it even if they don't borrow. We are saying: keep borrowing money, and we will keep providing you with assistance; but if you don't borrow, you don't get any.

I think good municipal financial judgment could better occur if the real costs of interest occurred and we provided at least the same amount of assistance in a different way, albeit perhaps even unconditional, as we've done over the course of many years. If I could briefly go to a couple of other matters raised. In addition to the matter of rural industrial parks, the hon. Member for Drumheller raised the question of as­ sessment on farm homes. Our policies were outlined in this Legislature some time ago. The assessment on farm homes only occurs on homes with an assessment value above a certain level.

In 1980, it was established at $28,000. It has increased since then as the value increases. Generally speaking, a standard three-bedroom farm home of 1,200 to 1,400 square feet is not assessed. However, any amount over and above that would draw assessment on the basis of a new home in 1981. I don't have direct control over what assessors do.

Our instructions from the Department of Municipal Affairs to assessors are generally to pass judgment on whether a farm home needs to be assessed by observing it from the outside and to actually go in and physically assess that home only if, in their judgment, such home will be above the limit of which there is an exemption. In addition, I have to say that when the assessors are out in the field in a rural municipality, carrying out their day-to-day duties, in terms of what they inspect and what they don't, to a large extent at that time they are really under the employ of the rural municipality.

To a certain extent, they are required to take direction from that rural municipality. I'd be happy to look into any matter that might involve what may seem to be overzealous assessors going into farm homes they don't need to go into, that obviously fall below the exemption level. If I could comment briefly on the comments of the Member for Cypress on the expansion of the city of Medicine Hat.

I am not aware of any application before the Local Authorities Board for annexation to Medicine Hat, and therefore have difficulty in commenting on the appropriateness or otherwise of the city of Medicine Hat annexing territory in the direction of Redcliff. As far as I'm concerned, that matter will have to await whatever direction might come to me from the Local Authorities Board.

At that time, or prior to it, I would be pleased to receive any information from the hon. member that might be helpful in ensuring that there's a reasonably good adjustment of boundaries in the area, if that's necessary, so both Redcliff and the city of Medicine Hat have an opportunity for continued viability with respect to indus­ trial and commercial assessment. Mr. Chairman, I've missed several other matters. The hon. Member for Lac La Biche-McMurray was inquiring into taxation with respect to rural subdivisions in the Gregoire Lake area.

From the knowledge I have, I can say that the fairly extensive increase in taxation in that area was almost totally the responsibility of the North­ land School Division. My understanding is that residen­ tial lots in that area are paying three times as much in school tax as they are in municipal tax. I would refer that matter to the hon. Minister of Education when the Education estimates are being discussed.

Insofar as fire protection in rural areas is concerned, in recent months and years the Department of Municipal Affairs, through the improvement district trust accounts throughout the province, has been involved in purchasing a number of fire trucks. Over the last two years in particular, we have entered into a number of agreements with urban municipalities, villages, and towns for fire protection in improvement districts. We are extensively involved in trying to get volunteer fire departments trained in the area of fire protection and firefighting.

In addition, it is my understanding that early this year the Northern Development Council will be surveying the needs of rural communities in terms of what is required from an educational point of view with respect to preven­ tion of fires in our more remote, northern communities. I'm sure the hon. member is aware that there are extensive dollars in this year's budget, under the im­ provement districts vote and in the Department of the Environment, for the expansion of potable water supplies throughout northern, rural, isolated communities, as well as in the eight Metis settlements.

With regard to Fort Chip, I have to say that it's a policy of the Alberta Liquor Control Board — if the minister responsible were here, I'm sure he would say this — to have an identical price throughout Alberta, which means that freight is equalized into the price so you pay the same amount wherever. That occurs in a few other areas where there is, if you like, only one entity in business; you have a captive market. Food, clothing, and

April 16, 1982 ALBERTA HANSARD 629 other supplies are supplied by people in the private sec­ tor, who have to charge their freight costs. I know of no way in which this government is able to alter that situa­ tion. We would almost have to provide for some sort of monopoly situation to one party if we were going to get involved in setting costs in that area. I want to remind the hon. member that we provide additional funds to a very, very large extent on govern­ ment programs in Fort Chip.

One example is in excess of $10 million for the installation of water and sewage facili­ ties in Fort Chip, which is more than double the amount per capita we've provided for those services in any other community in Alberta. So a lot goes into that community in terms of government services. I'm afraid we're going to have to live with the additional freight costs that exist, to the extent that they do, with perhaps one exception. That is, we might encourage additional means of transporting goods to that area and encourage competition between the barges, the air freight, and so on.

I don't know to what extent that will help, but it may be one avenue government could get involved in. The Member for Redwater-Andrew asked about grants in lieu of taxes. That is the responsibility of both the Provincial Treasurer and the Minister of Housing and Public Works. It is under review in terms of grants the government might pay, that we don't now pay, in lieu of taxes on certain properties. No conclusion has yet been reached.

However, when there was, if you like, represen­ tation by the county of Smoky Lake and the Member for Redwater-Andrew that the government build this fine tree nursery facility in that location, at that time we didn't have any representations with respect to grants in lieu of taxes. Indeed a number of communities would love to have had that particular plant. At this stage, it's a little difficult to get into a situation where we're providing extensive grants in lieu of taxes on a facility that the government of Alberta is spending millions of dollars on and that provides employment opportunities in the area.

The hon. member raised one matter with respect to the Alberta senior citizens' renter assistance program. Some pamphlets are available, and I'm sure the hon. member has one. The pamphlet says: As well, two persons married to one another may make only ONE application between them unless they are legally separated. The reason is that we didn't want to pay double grants to persons married to one another. There are always some who choose to abuse a program.

It may be that those two people were living together, married to one another, and they would apply for a grant on another rental accom­ modation, that might have been rented by their children or someone else, and say they lived there. We have no way of policing those things. But we thought it was reasonable to say that if you're married to one another and not legally separated, you're entitled to only one grant. [Mr. Purdy in the Chair] The member suggested that two people living together but not married were entitled to two grants. The member only assumed that, because the pamphlet does not say that.

In fact, that is not the case. If two people living together are not married, they are entitled to make only one application. If two people living apart are not mar­ ried, they're entitled to make two applications. If the member has any suggestions as to how we might resolve this problem without paying double grants to people married to one another and living together, I'd be pleased to hear them. We dealt with it at length. It should be read as the pamphlet says and not thought of as an opportunity for people who are not married and living together to get two grants.

In my view, that is not allowed under the program. If it happens, we would certainly like to know about it. We do spot checks on these, but obviously we depend a great deal on the honesty of our citizens. Mr. Chairman, I think those are the major questions asked by members. MRS. CRIPPS: Mr. Chairman, I have just a couple of comments. I've had representation from towns and vil­ lages in my constituency regarding the supplementary requisitions for schools. Apparently those supplementary requisitions are now coming out.

In many cases, the towns and villages haven't even been able to finalize their own budgets, because they did not have the information from the school board with regard to the supplementary requisition. In most of these towns and villages, the tax notices don't go out until July. Usually the taxes are collected in August and September. That means that these towns and villages are really acting as bankers for the school boards for five or six months. They have to either borrow the funds or use their municipal funds to pay the supplementary school requisition.

From the mu­ nicipal governments I've talked to, my understanding is that this causes them considerable hardship. They feel it's totally unfair, and I wanted to bring that to the minister's attention. MR. BATIUK: Mr. Chairman, I thought I'd add a couple of comments in support of what the Member for Drumheller mentioned. From my own experience serving on local government, I know that for many years the Alberta Association of Municipal Districts and Counties has been requesting a change in the assessment Act, to provide funds from many who have been abusing the system.

I think the case was particularly with people moving to a small acreage, building a home, and demand­ ing services: snowplough, school bus, and all others. They were paying only a few dollars of taxation. I think there was a need to have the manual changed. The county of Lamont, in the Vegreville constituency, has had a number of protest meetings. I can almost imagine what's going to happen tomorrow. The county of Lamont has advertised the annual meeting in Lamont tomorrow, and the Lamont tax protest '81 has also adver­ tised a meeting at the same time, the same place.

I can imagine what is going to happen there tomorrow. I think that some change has to be made. When we make a comparison, a farmer who has half a

section of land may be paying $800 or $1,000 tax. The fellow across the road may have half a

section of comparable land. But because he may be working out, partially or full-time, he would have to pay about three times the tax. I think he is paying considerably more. I refer particularly to some people who have farmed all their lives. They retire and want to live on their farm. There is probably no other chance. They are already considered non-farmers. The tax on their three-acre par­ cel and their home is going to be greater than what they could get even if they collect their one-third share. So actually they wouldn't get enough off the land to pay for the tax, let alone have something for themselves.

What really concerns me is that the Alberta Associa­ tion of Municipal Districts and Counties has been re­

630 ALBERTA HANSARD April 16, 1982 questing the change. The change has been made, and now they are blaming the government because they set out a manual that is not favorable. I feel that everybody as a citizen, regardless of where he lives, should be paying a tax. He should be paying his share of the costs of the services received. But in these particular cases, I know that they are individuals who no doubt are discriminated against. Maybe some change should be made in the as­ sessment manual that would provide that everybody pays a tax, but that somebody wouldn't have it as a real burden. MR. CLARK: Mr.

Chairman, I'd like to ask the minister if he or his department has been approached by the rural municipalities around the city of Calgary to form their own regional plan. I would also like him to comment if he doesn't feel this might be a feasible solution to a kind of thorny problem. The rural municipality seems to think they've lost absolute control of their own jurisdiction with the representation they have on the Calgary regional plan. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Would the minister like to respond? MR. MOORE: First of all, Mr. Chairman, with regard to the comments by the hon.

Member for Drayton Valley, I appreciate the concern with respect to municipalities which are required to pay supplementary school requisi­ tions in advance. However, there are several choices. As the hon. member knows, the rural municipality can bor­ row funds; pay interest on those funds. It can utilize its own unconditional municipal assistance grant or some­ thing else to pay that amount, and then probably have to borrow funds for other purposes. Or it can leave the amount unpaid, in which case the school authority will charge the rural municipality interest.

No matter what happens, even if we were to provide a situation where the school authority had to borrow the funds for the four or six months, the end result would still be that the exact same taxpayer would pay the bill. We can look at changing the system, but it isn't going to do anything except alter the figures on the tax notice that comes forward. I'd be pleased to consider with the Minister of Education whether something can be done to change it. The hon.

Member for Vegreville raises a question, and there is a concern with respect to the implementation of our new general assessment procedures in rural Alberta. I hasten to add that if we had put the old assessment procedures into the county of Lamont, there would have been a much worse situation in terms of perceived inequi­ ties than there are with the new ones. I know the member realizes that.

The problem with assessments in rural Alberta is large­ ly that some of them, like the MD of Rocky View in Lamont and ID 15, were so old and outdated that any new assessment of any kind results in pretty dramatic changes for people. In addition, throughout North America in the last 10 years, we've been experiencing rather rapidly escalating property values. New assess­ ments are reflecting that. In almost every province in Canada, and elsewhere in North America, we have what's referred to as assessment revolts, that are a bit difficult for us to deal with.

My problem usually is that I have all kinds of people telling me what the problem is, but very few people telling me the solution. For example, it may be that we could make a change in country acreages, where we have de­ cided that the first 3 acres of a residential site should be assessed at market value and the rest at agricultural value. All our market value assessment is based on 65 per cent of market value. Maybe the hon. member or some­ one would suggest that we arbitrarily reduce that to 32.5 per cent.

That might be just the thing we need to do to relieve some of the problems with respect to people who live on acreages. Over the course of the next few months, I'd like to consider some other ideas for implementation in 1983. Mr. Chairman, I don't say that facetiously. I am indeed concerned about the inequities that are still per­ ceived to be in our new system. The problem has been well identified for me. From now on I need to have solutions proposed. The hon.

Member for Drumheller raised a question with regard to the proposal from the Calgary region that the rural municipalities be allowed to form their own planning commission. We'd have a rural plan and then an urban plan. Mr. Chairman, quite frankly I have to say that the concept of regional planning was to get all the urban and rural municipalities in a region to plan togeth­ er. We would totally defeat the concept of the Planning Act if we were to break planning commissions into rural and urban. You'd have one municipality within another that had a separate regional plan.

Of course it wouldn't be possible to operate that way at all. I understand the member's concern. With respect to the Calgary Regional Planning Com­ mission in particular, we know what the problem is: the rural municipalities can't get along with the urban ones. We are having a hard time with the solution. I'm hopeful that with the leadership of the new chairman of the Calgary Regional Planning Commission — Lucille Dougherty, who is from High River — and the other members, we can come to some solution acceptable to the rural and urban municipalities by the end of this year, and we'll get a plan in place.

My view is that that will best be accomplished if the regional planning authority recog­ nizes that the regional plan should be a broad guideline document and not a specific one, and leave those more specific matters to the general municipal plan or the land-use by-law. I'm hopeful we can convince them to do that.

Agreed to: 1.0.1 — Minister's Office $172,449 1.0.2 — Personnel $346,587 1.0.3 — Administrative Support $5,316,906 1.0.4 — Special Projects $341,892 Total Vote 1 — Departmental Support Services $6,177,834 2.1 — Unconditional Assistance Grants to Municipalities $87,595,036 2.2 — Municipal Debenture Interest Rebate Program $86,400,000 2.3 — Transitional Financial Assistance $4,686,511 Total Vote 2 — Financial Support for Municipal Programs $178,681,547 3.1 — Program Support $565,461 3.2 — Senior Citizen Renters Assistance $33,464,000 3.3 — Property Owner Tax Rebate $35,899,300 Total Vote 3 — Alberta Property Tax Reduction Plan — Rebates to Individuals $69,928,761 4.1 — Grants to Regional Planning Commissions $7,932,438

April 16, 1982 ALBERTA HANSARD 631 4.2 — Co-ordination and Administration of Community Planning $3,646,513 Total Vote 4 — Support to Community Planning Services $11,578,951 5.1 — Program Support $404,375 5.2 — Administrative Assistance to Organized Municipalities $1,675,328 5.3 — Administration of Improvement Districts $8,207,050 5.4 — Administration of Special Areas $2,572,869 5.5 — Assessment Services $9,628,529 Total Vote 5 — Administrative and Technical Support to Municipalities $22,488,151 Total Vote 6 — Regulatory Boards $1,907,397 Total Vote 7 — Co-ordination of Northeast Alberta Programs $500,000 Department Total $291,262,641 MR.

MOORE: I move that the votes be reported. [Motion carried] MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Chairman, if members of the committee will be patient for a moment, the Minister of Recreation and Parks will be with us. That will be the next department. Department of Recreation and Parks MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Has the minister any opening comments? MR. TRYNCHY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Sorry for being somewhat late. I would like to start off first by saying to all members of the House that I had great pleasure working with my department staff through the past three years.

I have great praise for the kind of work they have done for us and the kinds of regulations they've come forward with, the cutting of red tape, and what have you, to provide the service to Albertans. I want to pay special tribute to a gentleman who's been with us for some considerable length of time. That is my deputy minister, Tom Drinkwater, who has retired. He's been with the department for some 30 years. I would like to wish him well in his retirement days. I know he has contributed a great amount of himself to Albertans. On July 1 we appointed a new deputy minister, Barry Mitchelson.

I'm sure you're all aware of this gentleman. He was with the Edmonton Eskimos at one time, has been with the University of Alberta for a considerable number of years, has done considerable writing and co­ ordination of sports and recreation activities, and has lectured throughout Canada, the United States, and Bri­ tain. For a short while, he also acted as chairman of the Alberta Recreation, Parks and Wildlife Foundation. We have done one thing this year that was an achieve­ ment. I wanted to accomplish. On assuming office, I had our department split in three buildings.

We have now just about completed the move where we are all in one build­ ing. That will provide a better service to all of us. MR. KOWALSKI: In Mayerthorpe? MR. TRYNCHY: The building happens to be in Edmon­ ton, not quite in Mayerthorpe; maybe it should have. At the same time, we reorganized the department. I'd just like to run through it. We now have five departments within the organization. They relate to design and imple­ mentation, operations and maintenance, and recreation development. We have two supporting units: administra­ tive division and a policy and planning unit.

Donn Cline is responsible for design and implementation. We just appointed a new ADM, David Kalinovich, to operations and maintenance. Recreation and development will be handled by Julian Nowicki. Dave Rehill is responsible for administration. A new area, policy and planning, will be headed by a newcomer to the department in that position, Rick Curtis. Over the 1981-82 year, we've had a number of func­ tions. I just want to report quickly that on March 13 and 14 we had Intersport VI. Approximately 150 representa­ tives from the sporting associations, municipalities, col­ leges, and universities met.

We got a consensus from that meeting that we should be establishing a new Alberta sports council. The new sports council would be an arm to provide service to amateur sport and would be admini­ stered by a volunteer board. Last year we provided what we call the Outdoors Alberta project, to promote outdoor recreation development throughout Alberta. This mobile unit, funded by the department and operated by the YWCA, visited some 25 communities in northern Alber­ ta. This was most successful. This year, that unit will be visiting the southern part of the province.

In 1981 our Canada Summer Games were held in Thunder Bay, Ontario. Alberta was represented with a full team of athletes. We did well. In the total competi­ tions, Alberta finished in a convincing fourth place. Many of our athletes will now be moving on to other endeavors and, hopefully, to our future Olympics. On February 25 to 27, 1982, we held our Alberta Winter Games in Lloydminster. These games attracted over 3,100 participants from the eight zones across the province. We held a convention in Edmonton called Energize.

Some 400 volunteer recreation board members from across the province participated in workshops and provided sugges­ tions and recommendations to us on how we can improve our services to them. In the High Level area we have a regional office, opened December 1981. It just proves that there is a response to the growing recreation needs in the northern part of Alberta. In our capital and operation assistance, we've con­ tinued with our MCR program. This was the first year we removed the restrictions of a 10 per cent guideline to Calgary and Edmonton.

With that, both cities undertook to construct more facilities, and we've had to go to special warrants to provide them with the needed funds. We've moved quickly this year in five new urban parks through­ out the province, in Grande Prairie, Lethbridge, Lloyd­ minster, Red Deer, and Medicine Hat. We provided assistance to the Cold Lake ski facilities. Members, I've never seen a better group of people to work with than the RCAF base in Cold Lake. I guess if you're looking at the private sector to do something — we had $500,000 in this year's budget for that facility.

They provided the manpower; they got on with the job and did it in half the time they thought they could do it in. I want to say with all sincerity that we must praise the people in that area, especially the MLA and the member he worked with on the Cold Lake base. Last year we moved with a number of improvements to parks. While we did not open any new parks, we have

632 ALBERTA HANSARD April 16, 1982 extensive upgrading and development at Cypress Hills, Whitney-Ross, Dillberry, Carson-Pegasus, Hilliard's Bay, Notikewin, Kitty Brook, and Kinbrook Island. We are planning for two additional provincial parks, one at Buck Lake, near Drayton Valley, and another at Pioneer Lake, near Edson. Last year we initiated the development of something new and exciting: the recreation areas. We now have a recreation area at Wadlin Lake, Goose Lake, Open Creek, Fox Lake, Picture Butte, The Snye, Lac St. Ives, Battle River, Jubilee park, and Ridge reservoir.

These areas are all under construction and will receive — some have received — $100,000 in capital funding, and in 1982-83 will receive up to $20,000 for operating costs. In this budget, Mr. Chairman and members, we have provided funds for the 1983 Summer Games, to be held in the county of Mountain View. This is the first time we've taken the games to smaller centres, where five small centres have grouped together to provide the Summer Games. We've always centred our attention on larger centres. This will be the first time this has happened. From all reports, it's progressing well.

I'm sure they will put on a function that we as Albertans can be very proud of. We're also providing funds to the Western Canada Games, which will be held in Calgary. These games have been held previously in Regina and in Saskatoon. The budget will include some $9 million in support of the Western Canada Games. I guess the most exciting games to be held in Edmon­ ton in the near future will be the World University Games. We expect that 4,000 to 5,000 students, from some 85 to 90 countries, will be participating. In this budget, we have provided some $10.7 million as our contribution toward those games.

I might add that we have made another contribution to those games. We have assisted by providing one of our gentlemen from the department, Mr. Jim Acton, to work as a liaison between our department and the government and the university. We've increased our athlete assistance program, which provides $330 per athlete to some 560 athletes in the province, by 50 per cent. We've increased our association grants, which in this budget provide funds to over 100 associations, by some 30 per cent. Again this year, as last year, we're moving with 10 more recreation sites in the province of Alberta.

Those sites have now been picked, and I want them reported for the record. This will provide some $1 million for capital construction. The sites will be at Burma Bridge near Stettler, Chip Lake near Wildwood, Narrow Lake near Athabasca, the town of Sexsmith, Cardiff park near Morinville, Lea park near Lloydminster, Stafford Lake in Taber-Warner, Burntstick Lake in Rocky Mountain House, Cavan Lake in the Cypress constituency, and another site on the Red Deer River in the Innisfail constituency. Mr. Chairman and members, we have moved very dramatically in another way.

For the first time, the Department of Recreation and Parks will assume some 68 highway campsites this year. We will be taking over these campsites, and they will be administered on a park- type operation. They will be visited each day by people from the department or, in cases, we will allow the private sector to become involved. I want to say this to members: if you have people who want to become in­ volved in working with us on highway campsites, we'll gladly talk to them and see if we can work out an agreement. No fees will charged at these highway camp­ sites.

But as we improve them and develop our main­ tenance crews, we expect they would become equivalent to park standards and, in the future, we would consider a slight charge. Mr. Chairman, as I mentioned, we are expanding and improving facilities in some of our existing provincial parks. I hope we could continue and do a number of them. As I visit the province from park to park — and I've been to each of them. In the little time I have left as minister, I wish I will make another visit and see the improvements we have. We have a number of ongoing improvements in the parks across the province.

In 1981, we held a Boy Scouts Canadian jamboree in Kananaskis Country, which was very successful. We are now planning to host the world jamboree at the same Bow Valley Provincial Park. With the success we had in '81, I'm sure this will be as fine a performance as we had then. Mr. Chairman, I'd like to bring one more thing, that I think is very important, to the attention of the members. Under our Recreation, Parks and Wildlife Foundation, which was just started a few years ago, to December 31, 1981, we've had applications from across the province for some $10 million worth of projects.

The association has approved some 150, for a total amount of $2.3 million. This Recreation, Parks and Wildlife Foundation has ac­ cepted donations from the private sector. To date, those amount to over $.25 million. In that time, the foundation has received some $3.5 million from lotteries. A grant breakdown of the 150 approvals goes like this: to sporting associations, $616,315; for recreation associations, $1,100,126; for parks, $342,835; for wildlife promotion, $245,894. Mr. Chairman, I've covered briefly and, I think, quite extensively the kinds of things we're doing.

I'm pleased with the support of the members and of my staff. I'm now prepared to answer any questions. MR. BATIUK: Mr. Chairman, I would just like to ex­ press a comment or two. I figure that the support this government has given to Recreation and Parks in the past is one step that has provided for improvement of the quality of life in rural Alberta especially and, no doubt, right across the province. I have just one little concern. I wonder whether the minister has ever looked at the multicultural facility pro­ gram. This has worked very well throughout the province in most of the areas in the constituency.

I think this was a great incentive, because it proved that God helps those who help themselves. This is one area that has done very well. But I wonder whether the minister has looked at those communities that make applications at a late time. The $100 per capita was much better in 1974, when this program came out. But everybody in the province could not take advantage of it, even if they wanted to, because this was a 10-year program. I recall the street improve­ ment program. I think it was the previous Minister of Transportation who prorated the five-year plan to pro­ vide for inflationary costs.

The dollar is worth so much less than it was some time ago. I wonder whether the minister has looked at the possi­ bility for provisions in this particular area for anybody filing applications in the eighth, ninth, or 10th year. Otherwise I think the programs have been good. The people are quite happy with them. DR. CARTER: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the help that the minister and his department have given with respect to the former prisoner of war site at Kananaskis, the

April 16, 1982 ALBERTA HANSARD 633 development of a museum on that site, and the other help given by not only his department but the Department of Culture in other areas, with respect to the naming of a topographical feature there, a mountain, using the name that the prisoners themselves used during their time of internment. I'm greatly encouraged by the action of the minister and his department with respect to taking over the various recreation and camping sites along the highways in the province. I look forward to a fair amount of upgrading taking place there.

With respect to the city of Calgary and the Western Canada Summer Games in 1983, I know the minister is behind that project one hundred per cent. Having met with the president of the games, I know that this will be Calgary's chance to try to emulate the successes Edmonton has been able to achieve with regard to the various sporting events that that city has hosted. However, I hope the minister and his depart­ ment will get the proper credit due unto themselves and that that won't be seen as just a Calgary event.

That comment leads to the matter of the very consider­ able support from the department and the province being given to hosting the Olympic Games in 1988. One of the concerns I have is with respect to the Olympic coliseum. I think of other events which are going to receive substan­ tial administrative and capital funding from the province. I am quite concerned that the city of Calgary isn't just going to go around and say, look what we've been able to do all by our sweet little selves. After all, it is a partner­ ship venture.

I really urge the minister and his depart­ ment to make certain that the province is seen as getting some measure of thanks for the considerable amount of financial, administrative, emotional, and supportive in­ volvement being given to those particular projects. MR. HIEBERT: Mr. Chairman, I would like to direct a concern to the Minister of Recreation and Parks. The World Cup is now being played in Europe, so this might be a good time to raise the matter related to the Canada Cup series which was staged at Edmonton Northlands last September.

It is my understanding that as part of the agreement between Hockey Canada and Edmonton Nor­ thlands with the rental of the coliseum, $20,000 per game was set aside for amateur hockey in the province. With seven games all told, I think $140,000 is to be turned over to amateur hockey to promote programs in the future. It is also my understanding that a challenge was offered to Alan Eagleson from Edmonton Northlands to match this generous offer. Could the minister clarify where we stand on this par­ ticular matter at this time?

Furthermore, could the minis­ ter give some assurance when this money will be turned over to the Alberta Amateur Hockey Association? This organization has made commitments in anticipation of these funds. I know they would appreciate receiving it in the immediate future. If this could be done, certainly it would be appreciated by this organization. While consid­ eration might be given to matching funds, I'm sure that the original amount could be turned over and whatever was pending could be dealt with at a later date. Briefly, that is the concern I would like to raise with the minister this morning. MR. ISLEY: Mr.

Chairman, on behalf of the residents of the Bonnyville constituency and, more particularly, the Cold Lake ski society, for the third time I would like to extend thanks to the minister for the quick response of his department. Right now, we have out there a very modern ski hill that, once it was completed, got excellent use the last half of the season. We do have a problem, however. I realize the Minister of Recreation and Parks cannot address it. Unfortunately, heavy use knocked the road out before the snow disappeared.

So we're now looking forward to as quick a response from the Depart­ ment of Transportation as we got from Recreation and Parks. I'd also like to compliment the minister and his de­ partment on the transfer of the highway campsites to Recreation and Parks. I'm particularly impressed with the idea of involving the private sector in the operation of these sites. In negotiations with the private sector, I hope we're flexible on the fee

schedule and if, in certain areas, there's a desire by the campers to get certain protection from vandalism and disturbances, and the private sector is providing security, we be prepared to institute charges on these campsites, even this year. Thank you. MRS. CHICHAK: Mr. Chairman, I just want to make a few brief remarks on behalf of the people of Edmonton Norwood with respect to the kind of support they have received, particularly through the MCR grants for the community recreation centres. They have expressed real gratitude for the facilities we now have.

I think these funds have gone a long way to assist these communities in providing the quality of facility that encourages people within the community to be more involved, more active, and to have the opportunity to bring families together in active participation in revitalizing the quality of life in the communities. I know the people of Norwood would want me to convey to you their gratitude. We have Parkdale, Delton, and Alberta Avenue, just to name a few. The list isn't conclusive.

I hope the list will not be conclusive, because I have been encouraging another community, Westwood, to make application for a community centre under the MCR grant. I would like to draw attention to one aspect. I know that when the applications come to the minister through the municipality, they are simply considered as they are made. But it seems to me that perhaps a significant number of communities, in applying for the MCR grants for the development of their recreation centres, forget about another very important component of the program; that is, the cultural component.

If there is no indication of participating in that aspect of the program when these applications come to his department, that might be an important issue for the minister to raise: whether the community has considered the needs with respect to the cultural aspect of the program; whether, in fact, they have decided that what they have applied for is adequate for their needs and that they have considered it. I am just concerned that that is being overlooked. We talk so much about recreation and not enough that there really is the other very significant component of the program. That is an issue I wanted to raise.

Of course I want to compliment the minister on the announcement he made with respect to additional parks being planned across the province. I think we have slowly been developing, or making significant progress in, the recognition of what tourism really means to the province. Over the last decade, I think we have been moving more and more rapidly to develop the kind of facilities that will enhance the province and encourage people within the province to visit across its own borders for vacation spots and enjoyment, and as well be an encouragement for people abroad to be aware that many things in this

634 ALBERTA HANSARD April 16, 1982 province are worth seeing and would fill a real kind of experience in their holiday scheduling. What is taking place in the development across the province is very important. The implementation, improvement, and de­ velopment of programming the minister has put into place during his term of office thus far should be recog­ nized. I know that people of Alberta are grateful. The desire to visit at home is a very important one, and I just want to express those congratulations.

The matter of taking over the responsibility for upgrad­ ing and maintenance of campsites has been very long overdue. Congratulations that that has finally come about. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [Mr. Appleby in the Chair] MRS. EMBURY: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to commend the minister and the members of his department for the assistance given to citizens of Alberta, particularly so many people in Calgary North West, through the various grant programs in his department.

I'm thinking primarily of one of the programs last year, where a lot of youth had the advantage of competing in sports events. 1 believe that was held in Lethbridge. I know I was very pleased to contact so many of my constituents and find that they truly enjoyed this worth-while experience. One of the events I want to comment on that recently happened in Calgary North West was the, using the term loosely, sod turning event of a new twin arena concept in the new residential area of Scenic Acres. I said "using the term loosely" because the actual formal part of the ceremonies was held indoors, in a tent.

But for the official ceremony, we did turn over the gravel in a small stand of gravel outside. This event was very well attended by many constituents from Calgary North West, primarily from the areas that will enjoy the benefit of this great facility: Varsity Acres, Silver Springs, and the new community of Scenic Acres. The event was attended by his worship the mayor of Calgary and by many representatives of the council in Calgary. Mrs. Pat Donnelly, the alderman for that area, was also in attendance.

One of the unique contributions I want to draw specific attention to today is by the private sector, primarily by Nu West. Mr. Scurfield was also in attendance at this official functioning, and it's through the prime efforts of that organization that the Crowchild twin arena concept will become a reality. Not only are they contributing financially to the initial building of this arena, but they are carrying out the actual building of it and are donating a special ice-making machine.

I think it's very important, particularly under this department, always to recognize the contribution made by the volunteer and private sec­ tors of our society. I'm certainly looking forward taking down, on behalf of the minister, our contribution to this arena complex, in the very near future, I hope. I wonder if the minister would update very briefly what is happening in Kananaskis Country. I realize that as an estimate, this comes under the Alberta Heritage Savings Trust Fund.

But since last fall, when the minister gave us a very complete report in the Assembly, I have a few constituents who are very interested in knowing what new developments might be opening this year. One of my avid golfers is extremely interested to know if there will be any opportunity to golf in Kananaskis Country in 1982. In closing, Mr. Chairman, I would like to reiterate my extreme thanks on behalf of the constituents of Calgary North West for the benefits they have received in many of the grants offered by the Department of Recreation and Parks.

While I also commend the minister on the pro­ gram of taking over the highway parks, I hope there will always be a consideration of weighing the merits of so many of our parks and recreational involvement pro­ grams in this province — being helpful and yet not displacing the private sector. In regard to our parks program, I think there has to be a fine balance some­ where. I realize it's a very difficult one to make. But I do urge that this will always receive some consideration, because I know that more and more the expectations of Albertans — so often we hear, let the government do it.

On the one hand, while we're trying to respond to worth-while needs in Alberta, I think we also always want to respect and encourage the private sector to be involved. Thank you. MR. PAHL: Mr. Chairman, I would like to follow other members' positive comments on the major cultural/ recreation facility program. It's truly a program where people who try to help themselves are helped by this very progressive program. Representing Edmonton Mill Woods, as a substantial beneficiary of that program — of course that makes sense, because it is the fastest growing constituency in Alberta. MR. LITTLE: Wait a minute. MR.

PAHL: In percentage terms, Mr. Chairman, not­ withstanding the protests of my colleague the hon. Member for Calgary McCall. Inasmuch as it is the fastest growing constituency, in percentage terms, there is an ongoing need for recreation­ al and cultural facilities. I wonder whether the minister would indicate whether his budget has anticipated, or will anticipate, any increase in the per capita allowance for the major cultural/recreation facility program because of the effects of inflation, plus an extension of the program.

I'd also like to compliment the minister, his staff, and the volunteers who have made such a success of the Alberta Recreation, Parks and Wildlife Foundation. I don't see a budget allocation for that organization. So I wonder whether it receives any funds from the depart­ ment or whether it's all from the private sector and foundation lottery grants. Finally, I wonder if the hon. minister would provide some explanatory comments for me with respect to the funding of the 1988 Olympics.

I quickly want to point out to the committee and to the minister that being an associ­ ate member of that organization and a supporter of the concept of the Olympic Games, I am in no way suggest­ ing lack of support or criticism. But unfortunately, out in the public there seems to be a blank cheque mentality with respect to provincial government support for the 1988 Olympic Games in Calgary.

I wonder whether in his comments he might indicate what sort of controls there are on funding of the Olympics, to put to rest, I hope, the suggestion in some of the public that there is in effect a blank cheque available for Olympic expenditures. Thank you. MR. MAGEE: Mr. Chairman, I would also like to ex­ press appreciation to the Minister of Recreation and Parks for the great deal of effort he and his department have put forward since he assumed the portfolio. I think that no one has worked harder, and he's certainly deserv­ ing of all the praise we can give him — and of course the

April 16, 1982 ALBERTA HANSARD 635 Hon. Mary LeMessurier, who is a co-partner in the multicultural department through the grant system; par­ don me for that omission. I would like to dwell for a few minutes on the artery that runs between Calgary and Edmonton, the most traf­ fic usage by far of any highway in our province, separat­ ing the two cities by some 320 kilometres.

I'm particularly interested to learn from the announcements of the last period of time, and particularly today, about the De­ partment of Recreation and Parks taking over the admin­ istration of parks along our highways — or rest stops, I'm not sure; but at least the park sites along the road. I come back to this particular traffic artery, with the great proli­ feration of recreational vehicles that people now consider a way of life.

Because of certain restrictions in purchasing property and subdivisions around our lakes, which I to­ tally agree with, these people now need some place to stop and enjoy nature — water, trees, and delightful places — and to make overnight stops along our highways. In proximity to Red Deer, there are three locations. But those parks are at least 25 kilometres off that highway. I refer to Aspen Beach at Gull Lake, Jarvis Bay beach at Sylvan Lake, and the Red Lodge Provincial Park, west of Bowden. That's a considerable jaunt to move off that busy highway and go that distance in order to get accommodation.

When they get there, they find it is absolutely jammed full because of the great use by people of those now very overcrowded facilities. So there are a lot of frustrated people who, after going 25 ki­ lometres, must go back to the highway and move on to something else much farther down the road. I'm interested in knowing what the minister's plans are, as time goes on, to develop a major recreational campsite — overnight stop, if you will — somewhere in close proximity to the very rapidly growing centre of Red Deer, and surrounding communities, because this is a mode of transportation by which families now travel.

This is how relatives travel to major centres, as an economical way of moving their families around and enjoying a summer vacation. The recreation vehicle be­ hind an automobile is now an accepted way of life in our society. There are still locations, along both the Blindman River, which is just north of Red Deer, and the Red Deer River to the west, which could be enjoyed by many, many citizens of this province. I know that would be well appreciated by many people, particularly in Calgary and Edmonton, who have recreational vehicles.

The only method by which they can get their families out of the city environment into the country is by travelling with a recreational vehicle behind their car. While I would like to pass on an accolade for the tremendous job of this government and the leadership of the minister in developing the urban parks program, of which Red Deer is the recipient of one — it's most appreciated — all this is more of a passive park develop­ ment type of operation. It is not intended that there should be a great proliferation of motor vehicles, auto­ mobiles, and recreational vehicles of every type in an urban park setting.

You might be interested to know that there is a camp­ site downtown in the city of Red Deer, and it's being doubled. But that is about the extent to which the city fathers want to go in the development of a recreational park, if you will, for overnight stay within the city. This would more or less accommodate those visitors to the city alone. Of course, you can't close the doors and ask people where they're from and what their purpose is before let­ ting them in. The only way you can curtail the activity to some degree is to say it's filled up and it's closed. So there are