Volume 3 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 3rd. Session VERBATIM REPORT MONDAY, DE~ 2, 1974 SPEAKER: THE HONOURAB-LEJAMES M. RUSSELL Number 80

December 2, 1974 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Tape 1798 IB-1 _MR. E. ROBERTS (LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION): Mr. Speaker, before we go into ministerial statements. Yesterday the death occurred of a man who played a very leading role in Newfoundland and I think it appropriate that the House note its regret. The Premier may wish to move the motion. That is the usual form and I would be happy to second it. I am referring of course, to the Reverend Doctor A.J.

Barrett, a man who served Newfoundland for quite a number of years both in the act of pastoral work of the United Church - he served, I am told, at !!usgrave Town and at Cochrane Street and at Wesley here in St. John's, then latterly at the i·'emorial United Church in Grand Falls itself. Following that he was appointed president as we are all aware of the Bible Society in Newfoundland. Re served in that post for the better part of eight to ten years and retired a year or so passed. Dr. Barrett died yesterday here in St.

Jolm's and I would ask - the Premier may wish to say a word or two - that the House take note of his death in the usual way and that a message of sympathy be sent to his widow and to the members of his family. nr. Barrett is one of thesP. men who played a prominent role in the public life of Newfoundland. We are all the losers because of his passing. HON. F.D. MOORES (PREMIER): Mr. Speaker, it would seem that recently the very prominent people in our province, a lot of them are passinR away unfortunately.

I certainly would like to at this time - I apologize for not having done it earlier - but I would like to ask the House to join with me in an expression of deepest sympathy in the passing of the Reverend A.J. Barrett. Dr. Barrett was a prominent and distinquished United Church clergyman as has been stated by the Leader of the Opposition. He passed away on Sunday at the age of sixty-seven. Dr. Barrett was born in Old Perlican where the Barrett family still resides, a great many of them. He served with the United States ministry with extraordinary capacity and resourcefulness.

He loved Newfoundland and was regarded with affection throughout this province by all those, Mr. Speaker, who knew him. 7339

December 2, 1974 Tape 1798 IB-2 As the district secretary for the Canad.ian Bible Society, Dr. B.arrett served with dedic .!ltion and sincerity and his valuable service is well recognized throughout this province. As 1 said previously, I know all members of the House of Assembly will join witb 1llt! in offe:r;.ing respect and sympathy to the family of Dr. Barrett. I move that this expression of condolence be C011DDunicated to his family. PRESENTING PETITIONS: MR. ROBE!tT,S·: I ask leave to present a petition signed by approldlnately 1800 electors of the District of White Bay South.

The prayer of the petition, Sir , I think is well stated and the argument in support of it. Perhaps I c;ould read the petition itself to the honout"able Speaker and members of the honourable House of Assembly of Newfoundland. The petition of the undersigned residents of the District of White Bay South humbly showeth that;

WHEREAS the member of the House of Assembly for White Bay South resigned on August 31, 1974; AND WH:ER.EAS we the citizet1- .s of the District of 7340

~ecember 2 , 1974 Tane 17QQ PK - l White 'R;," !fouth have a right to 1'e renresented 1n. the !louse of i\sseml-]v: and

WHEREAS the only way in 'Which we can P.xerctisP. that ri2:ht :lis hy mP.ans of a hv-p]ection in •••hich we can elected a neu memher:and ~1Hf.REA1' under the laws of Ne·wfoundland and Lahr a cl or a bv-P.lec t:f on can be called onlv by order of the Lieutenant Governor-in-Council. the r.aMnet: and WHERtAS the Cahinet have not VP.t ordered that the hv-election he held: and WHERFAS the nronosed redfatribution act wilJ not affect tl1e J)istrict of White Bay ~outh or anv other c!istrict until the next peneral e]Pction, an<l

WHEREAS the next '1eneral election may not he held for more than two vears. Nm,, th<>refore we vour oetitioners humblv nrav that the House of Assemhlv d:frect and recui.re the Lieutenant Covernor-in-C:ouncil to call th" hy-electi.on immediately. with Polling Day to be set at the earliest date ,mthorized hy the laws of Newfoundland and Labrador so that we the T>eonlP of Ph:lte Bav South may exercise our democratic rip;hts to choose our me.mhP.r in thP Rouse of Assemhlv. 'fr.

Sneaker, mv colleapues and I sunnort this who] ehe,i.rtPdl v. (·'e helieve that the neonle -fn Hhite Bav South have a right to cl1oose, have a rip.J,t to spe;i~-, and have a rip.;ht to send a man or woman to this Ynu<ie to sneal c for them. It is entirelv 1.n the handi:i of the government when t'iat r,v-plection is r,eld. It is much to he reprettecl that in ~1ewfoundland we cl0 not havP leP:islat1on makin .P: a bv-elect:lon mandatory within a neriorl of months. 't'e had tr.e P.xnerience :In Ferryland a numher of years a1go. P,, wPre the p.ovPrtiment. theti.

Jt ,-,as not nart1.cularly a h;in"v exnerience but what f,s, Is. l'pr,,,:ftapP was onen for thf' h,;,tter nar.t of Reven or eipht months l,efore tl0 p P:OVr>rnment. called a bv-election. White Rav South has nm,• heen o,-,en for all nf SentPml-Pr, ;ill of OctohE'r, all of ~Tovemher, for three months. The for,,,er memher. m,• coJleapue. Rill Powe, Pave a month and a-half notice of his clPcis:lon to resip.n, so the fovernment have had four and a-half months notice that the seat is onen. There :f.s no reason, Sir, that the fl'Overnment sh.ouln not hold tr-at bv-election.

AR I have said reoeatedlv, the onlv reason phv thev will not hold it is a lack of political courage on the nart of t11e admin1i:itrat1on. T would urp;e that this netition he received. Sir,anrl referren to the denartment to which it relates. In so doing, I would urp;e on behalf of us all. that 7341

December 2, 1974 Tape 1799 PK - 2 the Premier and the government move immediately to have that by-election held. HON:~ n. imoRES (PRF:HIKP-.): Mr. Speaker, in speaking in suPPOrt of the Petition for the people of White Ray South wantinp. to have a member in the House of Assembly, of course. we ap.ree wjth tliat. It is unfortunate that the.y i::aw fit to elect a meJr1her who did not see fit to reoresent them for the full T)eriod for wh:lch he t->as elected.

WHEREAS the Member for WM te lla,, South is F:One to Paris· an<l

WHEREAS the Leadership of the Liberal Partv was in doubt for some time and we thought maybe it should be held in abeyance until such t:ime as we found out who that gentleman may or may not be; arld

WHEREAS there also mav be a general election at any time, Mr. Sneaker, hut one never knows when, certainly the by-election :In Phite Bay South l-•ill he held at the annronriate time. '1R • NE.A ll.Y : MR. Sneaker. if there 1s anybody in this province that knoPs ahout not reoresenting their district it is certainly the Hon. the Premier when he was elected to reoresent the ridinp of Bonavista/Trinitv/ Conception in nttawa - MR. NF.ARY: He had the worst record of absenteeism in the House of Commons in -·---- Ottawa. '·'R • SPF.AKF.P,: Order, nlease'.

The rip.ht to renly in support or to make comments re: a petition nresented, is a courtesv extended to honourable members hut honoura~le members should bear in mind that they should sPeak to the nraver of that petition and not be irrelevant to that prayer as the honourable Member for Bell T.sland was. }1R. NFA"RY: I will accent Your Honour's ruling but we expect, Sir, on this side of the House to get the same nrivileges as the members who speak on the government side. But, Sir, the gentleman to whom the Premier referred,in my opinion, was a very worthy representative of the District of White Bay South.

P.e did a very honourable job indeed, Sir, and this House is ~oing to miss Bill Rowe despite what the Premier says. I support this petition, Sir, for the simple rea~on that I think it js the democratic right of the people in the District of White Bav South to have an elected renresentative on the floor of this House,

necember 2, 1974 Tane 1799 P'( - 3 to sneak in behalf of t he oeonle 1.n that distri.ct. We are tol<l. "r. Soeaker. that the Premier hai- tal<en on another r>artv hacY do,m on the eiihth floor who will be P.roomed to he the candidatP. in White Ray South. A 1,iheral? lrlt . R0BERTS: Inaudible. 'IT!.. t-'FAP.Y· i.fR. llOI\ERTS: !':ince woen? A nice fello~ hut tio Liberal. "R. N'F'A'RY:. l do not kno.,,. where they are . thev must t,e stackin2 thPm un dovn tl-ier e on the ei11hth floor no"•• Sir. ThPv have. a ne•.• s•••itchi-oard one rator do•m t here. They have a few more flunkies clo~,n there.

The•, have a cro,-,d trvinP. to 11:et the l'ini ster of "'lunicir>a l Affair s: ioh . ~PFAKF.Q• Order. fl\ease! A<~ain, I reMind the honourahle ' 1eMher for Bell Island he 7343

December 2, 1974. Tape 1800 RH - 1 is not anywhere being relevant to the prayer of the petition and if he continues in this vein I will have to ask him to take his seat and recognize another member. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I support the prayer of the petition and I challenge the Premier that if he has any political backbone at all that he will call the by-election iD1Dediately in the District of White Bay South;call the by-election. Let us have a general election. A general election would suit me fine because the people of this Province cannot wait to get into the polling booths to kick that crowd out.

But at least give the people down in White Bay South an opportunity to get their elected representative on the floor of the House, somebody who can speak on their behalf. MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I rise in support of the petition and I do so because of the remarks made by the Hon. the Premier suggesting that the honourable member resigned from his seat before his term was up. I might add, Mr.

Speaker, that the member for White Bay South did give, I believe, one and a half months notice before he resigned from that position thereby giving the government ample warning and tillle for preparation for a by-election in that particular district.

I think the only fair and square thing for the Hon. the Premier and his government to do now is to call a by-election in White Bay South as quickly as possible, particularly since this notice was given three months since passed, since the resignation of the member and I might add before the Premier goes lipping off about people not finishing their term that the honourable Minister of Fisheries resigned both his seat and his portfolio without any notice whatsoever being given

whereas the honourable member for White Bay South at least had the decency to give the House of Assembly and the people of Newfoundland due notice in time for a by-election. I suggest that the Premier call this by-election immediately and I give wholehearted support for the petition. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Recreation and Rehabilitation. MR. T. DOYLE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to beg leave of the House to present a petition. It is from approximately sixty per cent of the people in the community 7344

December 2, 1974. Tape 1800 RH - 2 of Calvert in my District of Ferryland. The prayer of the petition is that they would like to have some land burned over in or near the coDU11unity for the purpose of providing the people with a substantial blueberry crop. The blueberry grounds have all but disappeared due to overgrowth. The people feel that this is very necessary as it would be of great benefit to them eventually both directly and indirectly especially in these days of rapid inflation when our people are finding it so difficult to make ends meet. Mr.

Speaker, I have much pleasure in supporting this petition and ask to have it placed on the table of the House and referred to the department to which it is concerned. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Bonavista North. MR. P. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, I rise on hahalf of my colleagues on this side of the House in support of the petition from the good people of Calvert. In supporting that petition, Mr. Speaker, I would suggest that the blueberry crop in Newfoundland is one of the most underestimated potentials that we have on the whole Island.

I take note that my District of Bonavista North last year and in previous years provide about two-thirds of the crop in Newfoundland that is exported. I would like to point out to the honourable members that the blueberry is the only fruit in Newfoundland which is exported. I believe - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. THOMS: I am sorry, maybe with the exception of some honourable members . AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. "!R. MORGAN: The only one exported permanently~ MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to see the government and particularly - lfil• SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. THOMS: Mr.

Speaker, there is an awful confusion here for some reason or other. I would like to see, Mr. Speaker, the government pay more attention not only to the blueberry industry but to agriculture in general. I trust that the new Minister of Forestry and Agriculture under whose department this comes under, will pay special attention to it and give it the attention that it deserves. Also the financial support that it deserves. 7345

December 2, 1974 . Tape 1800 RH - 3 All over the Isla.nd of Newfoundland we have a huge pQtendal in blueberries alone and I trust that this government will pay special att.ention to them. I may note, Mr. Speaker, that the Federal Government is paying attention to it because this year some of the L.I.P., programmes are covering blue­ berry f.arma in Newfoundland. l have one approved in my district llJl.d I think this is a ve..ry ~orthwbile project and I congratulate the Fe~leral Govermnent for its interest in our blueberry eTOp. 734 ·

December 2. 1974 Tape no. 1801 Page 1 - MW ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WRICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN: MR. NEARY: The honourable minister promised me an answer to a question today. The minister came away and left it in his office. He is going to give me a copy later on this afternoon and table the answer tomorrow. MR. WINSOR: May I direct a question to the Hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications? By the way, I am very happy to see him in his seat after an absence, AN HON, MEMBER: (Inaudible), MR. WINSOR: I do not envy the honourable gentleman for taking a holiday. I think he deserves a holiday.

We should not hold that against him. However, getting back to my question, ~r. Speaker, I would like to ask the minister if there are any arrangements mace for sand on Fogo Island this year, to sand the roads? Last year we had quite a problem. The minister's predecessor is probably fully aware of the trouble. It is a problem the people of Fogo Island have because of a lack of sand. about this or if not •• ? Has the honourable minister done anything MR. ROUSSEAU: Searching sands down in Southport.

As I am sure the honourable member is aware, we had a meeting with the people from Fogo; we had three representatives from the island there. We have some problems, as you know, with the sand down in Fogo. Two weeks ago when I left - I have not been back to the office since, I just got back in town last night - we were going to look into it. We know it is a problem. Perhaps to get the details of your answer, I would have to wait until tomorrow to check it out tomorrow morning sometime as to what has been done.

We did hold a meeting with residents representing the whole Island of Fogo in relation to the sand problem, which the member,! am sure, recogni~es as being a big one. Tomorrow I will try to get the details of what just has been worked out. 7341

December 2, 1974 Tape no, 1801 Page 2 The alternative we had was the possibility of bringing it over in boats which would be a rather large figure. There are not many places down there, The people would like to keep the beaches that are down there. There is some fear as to what the problem may be there. I will check out just what has been done by the department. I will probably have the specifics of the answer tomorrow I would hope. MR. NEARY: Mr, Speaker, I have a question for the President of Treasury Board, Sir, but my problem is that I do not know who the President of the Treasury Board is at the moment.

The Premier announced some time ago that the Minister of Industrial Development was the - AN HON, MEMBER: (Inaudible), MR. NEARY: No, Sir, this is a legitimate - I want to direct a question, Sir, to the President of the Treasury Board and I do not know who the gentleman is. The Premier announced the Minister of Industrial Development was the President of Treasury Board. Yet the minister indicated to me the other day, when I put a question to him, that the Minister of Finance was the President of the Treasury Board. MR. SPEAKER: Order please: AN HON, MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR.

SPEAKER: Order please: It is usually the custom in any legislature that when the Speaker rises, the member standing must take his seat. It is not for the Chair to decide nor indeed, I suppose, to know who the President of the Treasury Board is. It is the feeling of the Chair that any honourable member asking a question of the President of the Treasury Board ~hould know who he is before he directs a question to him. MR. NEARY: Would the honourable Premier clear this matter up and indicate to the House who the real President of the Treasury Board is? 7348

December 2 • . 1974 Tape no. 1801 Page 3 MR,. MOORES: stand µp? Would the real President of the Treasury Board please SOME HON. MEMBERS: Heal:'! Rear! MR. MOOI!ES: The situation is, Sir, that because of

an act of this House, the President of the Treasury Board, through

an act of this Legislature, is the Minister of 'finance. However, there will be an amendment to that brought 1n in this session whereby that will not be the case but will be at the discretion of the Premier as are the o.ther lldnistries, The person who is actually performing the functions of the Treasury Board as president and who will be the president, when t .he act is aJnettded, is the Hon. Member for Hr. Main, the Hon. Minister of Industrial Development, MR.. NEARY: So we have a legal one and an illegal one. Sir, would the President of Treasury Bo.ard indicate to the House why it is that the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation 7349

December 2, 1974 Tape 1802 branch in Stephenville will not negotiate with its employees and they all booked off sick today. IB-1 HON. H.R.V. EARLE (MINISTER OF FINANCE): We are trying to find out, Mr. Speaker, and I will take notice of that. _MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, would the president of Treasury Board and the Minister of Finance care to indicate to the House just now what is the exact situation concerning the employees at Exon House. MR. DOODY: Would the honourable member care for an answer from me on behalf of the Minister of Finance? MR.

NEARY: I do not care who answers the question as long as we get the information. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: Go ahead, answer. MR. DOODY: If the honourable member wants to know the situation at Exon House now, Sir - I am speaking on behalf of the President of Treasury Board who is now the Minister of Finance - it is one that seems to be coming under the kind of situation we would like to see there. The people are presently meeting with Treasury Board officials. The problems are being discussed and I would think that they will be looked after.

The staff problems that they have had there in terms of n\Dl\bers of people are being looked at very carefully. I think that new posts will be created and new people will be put in there. The other situations that were raised during the unfortunate incident of a few weeks ago will be looked at in more detail at the time of the general collective bargaining itself when it takes place. Right now, as I understand it, the situation is pretty well under control. All the problems that the staff have had down there are not resolved. We are trying to do what we can to see that they are.

We know it is a most difficult situation in these homes. We appreciate very much the work that the staff have done there and are continuing to do. We are very conscious of the fact that they are an essential service and we are doing everything that we possibly can to keep them happy and give them the right conditions that they deserve. 7350

December 2, 1974 Tape 1802 IB-2 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. The minister indicated that they are at the present time negotiating with the employees over there. Well, when can the employees at Exon House expect to get a decision on their request of increase in pay? Will they get it before Christmas? Tomorrow? Next week? When will they get a decision? Give me a chance to finish the question. Okay, I am finished now. Go ahead. ~IR. DOODY: Which question does the honourable member want answered first? MR.

NEARY: The request for an increase in pay, this occupational hazard pay that they requested. MR. DOODY: That is one of the items that is under discussion now with these people by Treasury Board officials. I certainly would not even dream of bringing it up here now in the House. It is a matter between the two collective bargaining units involved, Treasury Board and the Exon House and Nape representatives. When the situation is resolved, I am certainly sure that an announcement will be made at that time. ~NEAR !.:_ Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question.

Could the minister indicate how soon a decision will be taken by Treasury Board on this increase in pay? Will it be this year? Will they have to wait until next year? The minister must have some idea. The other question, the matter of - MR. DOODY: Inaudible. ----- MR. NEARY: Yes, sure. Go ahead • ...!~R. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, as I have indicated twice, it is a matter that is under discussion between the various parties involved.

It would not only be presumptuous of me to try to anticipate what the result of the discussions would be, it would be idiotic and it would almost be indicative of the sort of policies that the Department of Labour or the previous administration were used to. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, seeing the minister is so jumpy and irritable and cocky today, could he tell us about the situation out in the Linerboard Mill? Is it on the auction block? Is the Linerboard Mill going to be sold to Price? Just what is the situation concerning the sale or the governments desire to get rid of the Linerboard Mill?

Would the minister care to clarify that situation for us? 7351

December 2. 1974 Tape 1802 IB-3 MR. DOODY: What has that got to do with me? MR. NEARY: The honourable member is the Minister of Industrial Development is he not? MR. DOODY: Oh, I see. I thought we were still on the Treasury Board case. Mr. Speaker, it has been said many times publicly by the Chairman of the Labrador Linerhoard Board, the honourable Minister of Fisheries and by the Premier and by myself that the mill is certainly available to any interested parties who might be able to present an offer to the province that would be in the best interests of the province and of the industry as a whole.

It is certainly not, now or ever will be, thrown into the market place as a fire sale unit. It is a very important part of the economy of the province, even though it is costing us a great deal of money. We have absolutely no intention of placing in jeopardy the jobs of the people who are employed there and we do not intend to just throw it on the market as a fire sale unit. If the time comes when a reasonable deal can be made with an interested party, then certainly the province is interested in looking at it. ~_:_NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question.

I can assume from the minister's answer then that no negotiations are currently under way to sell the Linerboard Mill. Nobody is interested in the Linerboard Mill at the present time. HR. DOODY: The honourable member is entitled to make any assumption he wishes, Sir. MR. NEARY: No, I am asking the minister. Would the minister tell me are there any negotiations going on by any firm to buy the Linerboard Mill at the moment? MR. DOODY: To the best of my knowledge, there are none at the present time. HR. NEARY: I see the Minister of Fisheries over there, Sir, looking over at me rather quizzically.

Does the minister have anything to add to that answer? 7352

Pecember 2, 1974 'l'aoe 1803 Pl· - 1 1'1R.. CROSBIE: Mr. Sneaker, even if I had anvtl,:lng to add to the ansPer I would not add it because the Hon. Minister of Industrial Develonment is anSt,,ering it. Hll. NEA~Y: ~fr. Sneaker, I would like to direct a tiuPst-fon to the 'f1nistPr of Transnortation and r.ommunications. I am glad to see the minister hacl , in t'>e llousP.. I want to get hack, Sir, to the old hup.;aboo of the arterial road, the St. Johy, · s Harbour arterial road. I am sure the mfnj ster must have done a '!rE•a t deal of thinking about it when he ,,,as :f_n Floriti ,;o.

Could the mi n:I s tPr tel) us now the nrectse status of the artP.r:!al road? Ts it p-o;ns;, tn he comnleted? Is it not r:o:!.ng to he comnleted? noel': it rati, num!,Pr onP nr;nr-ltv with his denartment at the moment and ,,.:!_th the p:overnmPnt? T,!hat is tl-,e ssituation nn the arterial road? 'T'hP. Premier :Is vett:lnp: ec\9:,,, 1•e mav •-•ant tn 'lnswpr it. po~•. J. G.

ROUSSEAT! (MINJS'rER ()f TRANSPOP'J'ATTn,1 ,l>,17) C('l1MTTNI<'.ATT0"S): 'l'l-,e povernment nolicv on thP :e1.rtPr:l.al road I presume is; it is going to nave to ne fini.ishPd• That :Is our hope. 'J'he orip:inal situat:lon ,,,as t"at the federal P-overnment would nav one hundred ner cent of the cost. Tn recPnt ino.,th,:: tl1Pv havp indicated that thev are no lonper will:ln" tn nut in one hunclrPd nPr CPnt of t 1,e co!'t.

The nrov:!_nc:lal p.;overnment are not '1anny ,,,1th that ~ituation. 'PreRPntlv Pe are in t'be R:f_tuation where ,,e are nf'p.ot1at1n<' r,-fth n11_1cF: witl-i reisnP.ct to funds that mii,ht J,e availahle for thP on-p-oin~ nrocr!'R of thP artPrial rout<> next vear. Tl-,e ii:ovP.rnment hav<> statPd that tl,P. Rrteri.al route, of counie, Pill not l·e fin:f .,shed at an" exnen!!P to the rPst of the road T)rop:r:i,.,,.ps in the nrovince. TherP ,1re a n11mher of nroblem,s "lT'volved tl-ierP that I am RUre the memher can annreciate.

As ROOT1 aR we hear fror, 0ttaw11. - the min1.ster reFnon,s:fhle for intergovernmental affairR and mvself mPt on thP roads nrop-ramme recentlv and we talked about the arter1 a] road. That ,,•ill 1--P nresented to 0ttawa hut not at the situation that Ottawa now wiRhes.

P<> certainly feel tJ,at :If f1ttawa,in the original in,:t11.nce, nledged one hundred oer cent of tJ,e cost with us nroviding the riRht..:.of-wav, and the other thinJ!'S that the nrovirce had to do and we have done in pood faith tJ,en it iR onlv logical in our orii.nion that the federal p:overnment 1-10uld live un to it,:: or:lginal connnitment of one hundred ner cent. We are oreparr·d to is:ft dm•'Tl and talk with them but there is no wav that we are r,oing to p,o into anv cost sharinp­ orop.ramme with the original commitment he:lng one hundred ner cent. 7353

'l'ane Ulff3 PK - ? ''R. NEAl1Y· "r. Sneaker, a RUpnlementarv ouestion, S:lr. Mv understanding ---- ·- is that thC! Government of Canad;i are withholding grants to a water svRtem for the exnansion of the water svstem in l;;mder hecaus" the- GovernJT1ent here, the nenartment of Transnortation and Communications have nlace<l numher one nr-lor:ltv on the arterial road. Could thf' mjniRter confirm or denv TThether thie, is true or not? Ts the watP.r svstem in C:ander rein~ held r-acl< hecause the pr,vernment are nressiPP. ahead for one hundred ner cent contrihution to ., the comnletj _on of the arterial road? AN HON.

MPIBW? : Inaudible. 'TT'. NEARY: lool-:. Well then• it is in the ''Telegram•· look. There is the cHnnfng MR. ST'E/1 KR!l. • The Hon. ~iin:I ster of F:I sher1 es. ------- - f'~'i•. :T_._ :- • Ci>flSBIR ('l.fHHS'T'l\'D ()F FISHERJF.S): ''nn:lcinal Affairs anr1 Pcousing can elarorate on th:fs a hit more.

The nosftirJn emit,.. clearlv is. with respect - not onlv to the Town of Gander's request for " ,-.ater sunnlv hut 1'111 - :md this has heen made clear t:lme after time T tM_d· :In the last few months hut :l.n connection ~-,:Jth alJ requeRts for assistance, for infrastructure, water and sewerage systems and the like that are not connectP.d to some snPcif:lc develonment notential,that none of thl?ln l'lre accentable to the Government of C:anada at ()ttawa. 'T'hP.re are no lonl!'er snecial areas agref'!T!ents i.n the future. ()ttawa :ls onl" intP.rested in assisti.ng if there is R subsidarv agreement enterep i.nto under thP ~enP.ral develonment agreement and anvth1n? it assists in must 1,e related directlv to a develonment onnortun:ltv to further econom1c or. industrial development. ~he nosition th~refore is that requests for munj.cinal water and sewerage svsterns and the l:!Jce are not eliF:ible for assistance under the JlPEE programme unless we can show some definite connection to economf.c and industrial develoPment.

That is ouite simnlv the position. Now within the next weel: or two T am trying to arrange a meeting ~Jith }fr. Jamieson to review the highwav situation and other agreements for next year. At that meet1ng we intended to take up again every snecific project that we have requested under the infrastructure a~reement and to ask Mr. Jamieson's denartment to confirm, ves or no, whether thev consider any one of those to he eligihle for DREF assistance, I can assure the honourable gentleman unto 7354

December 2, 1074 Tar,e 1803 PK - 1 tl-iis time such nro1ects,as tt>e one at Gander.are not eljsdble for assistnnce from D~EE. He are goin~ to insist that we j!:et a cl.,arer answer on everv one so that everv ~unicipalitv involved can be informed of the exact nosition. That is certa:lnlv the nosition up to date. "P • NF...AJ',Y: Well, ~r. Sneaer, would the minister tl-ien - 7350

December 2, 1974. Tape 1804 RH - 1 is stating that one project will not be matched off against the other. They will not be presented to the DREE minister in order of priority. For instance, the Arterial Road would come before the water supply at Gander. Is this the understanding I get from the minister? MR. CROSBIE: The Arterial Road is quite a different agreement. We have made it quite clear to the Government of Canada, Mr. Speaker, that the St.

John's Arterial Road was started under the agreement that they were going to pay 100 per cent of the cost, that the Province would only have the cost of acquiring the land and the right of way. That was how the St. John's Harbour Arterial started out. Now they have retreated a long way from that since. We have made it clear to the Government of Canada that we do not want any money for the St. John's Harbour Arterial Roa~. if there is anv suggestion that that is to have higher prioritv than other ma1or ~rterial roads in the Province such as the Great Northern Peninsula or the Bonavista North Loop Road or whatever.

That project should be dealt with on its own merit. We are not suggestin~ it has any great priority or even as great a priority as other roads that might be eligible for DREE assistance. MR. NEARY: One cannot have his cake and eat it too. MR. CROSBIE: When we see them in the next several weeks, Mr. Speaker, that will be gone over with them. We feel they should proceed w:fth the Harhour Arterial, wellJquite clearly on a basis that this does not affect what funds they provide for other DREE roads.

Now that has no connection either with water and sewerage projects or water systems or anything else and they stand on their own feet. Now as I have said before and to just reiterate again, there is no chance of having a project approved for DREE participation if it does not relate to a development opportunity. An ordinary municipal water and sewerage system no matter how desirable it is from the social point of view, will not receive DREE assistance unless they agree it has some specific value from an industrial or ecomonic development point of view.

Now as all members of the House know this government has been 7356

December 2, 1974. Tape 1804 RH - 2 tremendously successful, Mr. Speaker, in getting assistance through DREE from Ottawa and under the recently signed fishery subsidiary agreement there are a numper of water lines and fish plants that they are helping to finance and indirectly help the municipality they are in. They are only financed on the basis that they are providing a development opportunity to a fish plant. They will not do it, they do not want to do it if there is no development opportunity associated with it.

Now there were a large number of things that were suggested by the Province and my learned colleague, the junior member from Harbour Main is looking after these matters. A whole infrastructure agreement was suggested, put up to Ottawa and they definitely and specifically have come back and said they do not want to enter into any infrastructure agreement. Is that cocrect, honourable friend? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: So that is the position. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Hon. the Premier would clear up a matter for me.

Is it correct that within the last few days the Maritime freight rate subsidy on freight c0111ing into the Atlantic Provinces has been reduced by two or three per cent which will thus add another burden to the already high cost of living in this Province? PREMIER MOORES: I should take notice of that question, Mr. Speaker, I would say as far as the Provincial Government is concerned we certainly have not increased it. If it has it has been from the Federal Government. I would like to check and make sure exactly what the rate increase is and why they did it. MR. NEARY: While the Premier is at it, Mr. Speaker - MR.

J. ROUSSEAU: I wonder if I could mention a point on that, if I may. MR. NF..ARY: Yes, sure. MR. ROUSSEAU: The Federal Government in Ottawa apparently went out west and talked with the western provinces on the removal of the freight rate subsidy that they had. They did not deign to consult the eastern provinces. The eastern provinces made a request to Ottawa that the eastern provinces 7351

December 2, 1974. Tape 1804 RH - 3 be consulted as well. We hope to have a meeting, the ministers in Atlantic Canada including Quebec, sometime before January. In the meantime we also hope to have a meeting of Atlantic Provinces ministers responsible sometime before that to have our position. Ottawa has now agreed to meet with us and get our thoughts on it. Certainly I can assure the honourable member from Bell Island and the honourable members on the other side of the House and the people of this Province that we have no thought that we would ever support any removal of this freight rate subsidy.

We certainly will do all we can to maintain it as it now is and certainly when we meet with our counterparts here in Atlantic Canada, when we meet with the federal minister responsible we will certainly press that point. MR. NEARY: Obviously, Mr. Speaker, the minister knows more about this than the Hon. the Premier.

Would the minister indicate then whether or not it is too late to make representation, that the decision has already been taken by the Canadian Transport Commission or has the Province or will the Province protest it or have they already made any protests and will the minister table any letters of protest made to the Canadian Transport Commission on the reduction in this subsidy? MR. ROUSSEAU: Well, I can assure the honourable member that if that decision has already been made without consultation - MR. NF..ARY: I am asking the minister. MR. ROUSSEAU: To the ministers of Eastern Canada 7358

December 2, 1974 Tape no. 1805 Page 1 - MW and specifically to the minister of this province, responsible for transportation, you will bear and you will have tabled any correspondence and the correspondence will be quite strong that if the federal government in Ottawa decides, in a unilateral action, to remove that freight rate subsidy without even consulting the minister responsible in Atlantic Canada, I would think, and most definitely the minister responsible for this province, then certainly there will be loud howls, loud and clear, heard right across this province as far as we are concerned.

We have no question about our continued support of this freight rate subsidy. We think it should be included, especially here in Eastern Canada where the need is great for the supplies that are coming down from Central Canada. I can assure the member, who is asking the question, and the other members on the other side of the House that we will fight for the retention of that subsidy. MR. NEARY: 'Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the minister's answer. We will be watching what is going on.

I wonder if the Premier could make a comment on a story that has been making the rounds of late, that 115 employees of Price Newfoundland are going to lose their jobs? Would the Premier care to comment on that? MR. MOORES: I do not know anything about it. :MR. NEARY: He does not know anything about it? AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: Well I refer the honourable the Premier to the "Evening Telegram," November 4: "One hundred and fifteen may lose jobs at mill." MR. MOORES: Mr. Speaker, I would suggest that the Hon.

Member for Bell Island contact the "Evening Telegram" for his answer because I have been talking with Price and I have been talking with the union out there, there is some concern about the Botwood Railway but to my knowledge, the subject has not been broached, Apparently the media and the Member 7359

December 2, 1974 Tape no. 1805 Page 2 for Bell Island have something going or he has something going or he is confused or he believes everything he reads. Certainly, there is a problem, Sir. MR. NEARY: But, Sir, I read the story three or four times in the newspaper now. MR. MOORES: It will take you three or four times to see what is in it. MR. NEARY: While the Premier brought it up, the matter of the railway closing, "Railway closing brings protest." The Premier just mentioned the closing of the spur line to Botwood, from Grand Falls to Botwood, which will cost this province about forty or fifty jobs.

Would the Premier care to comment on that? of that line? Has the province protested the closing MR. MOORES: The fact is, Mr. Speaker, that the province is in discussions with the company and with the union on that very subject and have been for several weeks, ever since it has been announced. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, now that we have the Premier in a talking mood, would the Premier indicate to the House just what his government has done to help the sawmill operators in this province? We are told that they are just about all bankrupt.

What is the province doing to try to market the surplus of lumber that they have on hand? MR. MOORES: sawmills. First of all, Mr. Speaker, the province established the MR. NEARY: Without investigating. MR. MOORES: The province established the sawmills to try to develop some employment in rural Newfoundland. The sawmill industry, Sir, that sort of product is in trouble nationwide, as the honourable member may or may not know but it is in fact. Certainly here in Newfoundland the business of government contracts,where local timber can be used, such will be incorporated. This is our intention.

We will be doing everything we can to aid and abet the development of the rural part of our province. A great deal, Sir, is being done to make survive or to help survive an industry that, in fact, had been 7360

December 2, 1974 Tape no. 1805 Page 3 neglected for so many years. As this government was responsible for establishing a great many of the new sawmills, we will also be responsible for trying to help that industry become prosperous. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the Premier's enthusiasm about granting rural development loans and so forth to sawill operators. The question I put to the Premier is: Could he be more specific and indicate to the House just what it is the govemment is going to do to help the sawmi11 operators through this difficult period? MR.

MOORES: I just said that govemment contracts,where local labour could be used o.r local materials, will be given first prioi.-i ty. I would say, Sir, that that is being fairly specific in a very large area. I am also wondering, Sir, (I know it is not my position to ask) is three per cent asking all the questions or are we going to get some from the other ainety-seven per cent on the other side of the House? MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker - AN HON . MEMBER: (Inaudible) . MR. NEARY: Do you want me to send you over this kiss that the Minister of Industrial Development just gave me? 7361

Ml. NF.AR.Y: The "linister of Municinal Affairs and Bousing there seems to be eager to get up on his feet, so perhans I ~rill nut a ouestion to him , I might ~et a direct ansmir. The Tenancy Board head resip.;nerl recentlv, Mr. Riche. Could the minister indicate when he intends to fill th1s vacancv? "fll.. PF.CDORD : A direct ansver to a direct ouestion, Mr. Sneaker. That roard does not come under the nenart~ent of Municinal Affa1rs and ~ousing hut rather under the Denartment of ~rovincial Affairs and F.nvironment. HR. !-IF.ARY: Pell nerhaps Teddy Bear could give us the answer dot-m there.

Let us have tl\e am,wer. HON. G_. DAWE (MINISTER OF PROVINCLA.T, AHAIPS AND ENVIf ONl!El!T): " r. "neal-er, ~r. Riche resigned effective the 31st. of December, 1975 and on the l~t. of Januar y , 1'?7,; - MR. DAWE: I am sorry, 1974, C1n the 1st. of Januarv, 1975 1-1e wHJ. have a new chairman. MJL NEARY: Mr. Sneaker, I wonder if the "linj ster of TTeal th could tell m; if the enouirv that ~,ms launched into the water supply in the Upper Gullies school is yet comnleted? And will the investipation. the ennuirv he made nuhl:fc?

Will it be tabled in the House? >-fr. ~neal<er , the enoui .rv iR unc'ter tlie direction of Magistrate Corbett. He is workinp: on 1.t. I have no jdea when this report will he ready and I am not in a position to say whether it will be made nublic. H~ . • NFA~Y: :'fr. ~neaker, the council down in Marystown are un in thedr ,.,ool because they cannot get a study, a federal study that was done - AN H'1N. MEMRER: Inaudible. H~. N1'ARY: I beg your pardon? A~• HON. MF.MBER: Inaudtble. ------- - Ml'!. ~~_EA'PY: What is T,T.ong? ft.re you e;ettinp nervous? Hr. Sneaker, I thinl-­ they arP. ~11 gettinp shellshocYed.

They are all pettin~ shellshocked over there, Sir. The council dm,'ll in !1arystoT-m are anx:lous to get a renort of the study that was done hy µr. T, ll. Dalton to try and estahlish whether or not a port of call should be desip:nated on the Rur:l.n Peninsula? Would the Premier care to indicate to the F.ouse whether the nrovince has received the renort, and if they have •-rill they pass it on to the poor old mayor and 7362

Decemher 2, 1~74 Tane v~nr, PK - '.' counc:11 dm,'Tl :In 'farvstown and put them out of their m1 sPrv rlown t1,erP. ThP !~on. the Premier. F0~'. l'. n. '100RES (Pll'J'?,'!Ell) : I suggest, "'r. Sneaker, tl'a t the memhPr for that particular d-1.str:lct answer the auestion. I am not talldnf? 11.hout the ..,rovincial member. I am tal'la:ing ahout thP f Pne>ral member. '1R. NF.APY: WPll, ><r. Speaker. there is a n:lcture in the · Fven:lnP: TPlep:ram ---- \loveml,er 1, sr,owinv, the CPLC(l directors meet in the r:1tv. l:n that n:lcturP, ~i r. are two or three well J,noPn Tories hut ,-.h11t I w:mt to as], the Prem:!

"T is; w:111 r•r. Jameg Greene .. ,ho was elected as Prpc::f <lent of the Provincfal Torv Assoc-111.tion, ~•ho ~'l!s a member of the J\oard of n:fn~ctors, t-•:lll hf' nor l-e c1ronned from the Board of Directors and fro,,. c11 l the other johs from ,,,hi c: 1' he receives nay from t~e Provincial Treasury hecause of the ohv:lous conflict of :1.nterf>st? Tnaud:lhle. If. 'tr.

Sneaker, the honourablP memher iB t11.l1·1np about nol:lt:lcal n11tronaP:P of th11t sort, I am sure he ic: ~"t rPcmm111>nclinr t 11at 1>verv Liheral ovP.r the nast twentv-threP years who have been appointed to various pos:I tfons :In this nrovince he d:l.smissPd all at once because that is what nill he hanneninP:. ~ 0 • __ "lF..AP.Y__:_ ~•r, Sneaker, nbviouslv the Premier cl.ops not intend to amwPr tl1at nuest:lon. !-ir, T t3ould li!,e to as!, the 1'inistr>r of Trammortation :,nd rnMmunicat:!nns '!..'lhat h1.s de,iartment is doinf? about ~af P. nr:l.v:lnP: '·1Pek? Thi,; is; Safe nriv:ln!! Heek in Newfoundland.

What snecifi.c nl.ans do thev have for ~af P Dri.v1nf? T-Teek., if anv? Tnaudihle. He is he~inninp to worry vou, """? Tnaurl1.hle. Order. please! The Hon. ~inister of Transnortation and r.ommunications. HON. J. G. ROUSSEAU (~!INISTER OF TRANSPORTATION ANn rnm'lTNICATIONS) : Tf vou w:111 wa:ft unt11 tomorrow I w:111 get you a concrete ;ms•,rer to that hut, of cours;e, as vou know with the Department of Tranaportation and Communications fHty-two weeks of the year is Safe Drivin,:? l!eek to t1,em, ()f course, their efforts 11.re snread out over a year. 7363

E'Cernher 2, J 0 74 !an e 18 G T>Y. - 3 What specifically is being done now I~ not aware of. It is s-pecifically Safe Driving Week but we will certainly check and give you the reply tomorrow. ~:' •. - • .

P l!J ~I'} - ,1 PCt a nui>'<tinn to t ne J.lon. ''ini !':t PT of Tr8nsnortatin anri r.ommunications. madP t 1rouv h t he fAd.-ral ~ov.-r nment t lrrou oh t he P."artl'lP t of l'H~FF' for t e n avin r. of •••h;it is i·.no,,m :'l!' t:liP ·r,oor, "load ' ? /o RON . •~El!: Ina u<lil-l e . ------·-- · •m TrARY: '!''he Premi e r '(,"I'Ot e a not o on r ie '>:tel· of an e-nvel.onP. doMn j'l r.aTI'lanville savi n~ that he as ~on~ co n~vP it . 10/'J ES: t E' si un ti. on on the l.oon l'oad a , '[ met , 1th 11 del~pation <:om0 t 5"'P .:t<'O .

VP. mP.t ,, t t i 0 off ; c1 a ls c,f tli " ''Pn11 tmP t 0f for interr.o ver mnental aff11its t-at i } P nc1uried in thP r 'lro · P.ct ~ut t here a~ been a c"mm1 tm nc undertal·E'n rv this S!Ove rnment that., t ha t ro;id •>ill e done over a " eri od of til'II' ,.,j th so much ner vear. 7364

December 2, 1974. MR. P. THOMS: MR. MOORES: MR. THOMS: Tape 1807 You never answered the question. Yes, I did. Of course, I did. (Inaudible) • RH - 1 MR. WINSOR: Has there been a direct request made to DREE for a specific amount of assistance for that particular road? MR. MOORES: The answer to that, Mr. Speaker, is that Mr. Jamieson and the Minister Responsible for Intergovernmental Affairs have been meeting literally, I think, this week or the first of next week at which time that whole roads' programme for the province, the DREE aspect of it and the provincial aspect of it, will be dealt with.

I think it would be wrong to specify any one particular one being given nrioritv at this mo~ent until after that time. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: So the answer is no. MR. MOORES: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. MOORES: Mr. Speaker, no I will not say it. MR. WINSOR: A supplementary : I would direct to the Premier up until this present time no direct request has been made to nREE for that particular road. MR. MOORES: Mr. Speaker, if I might put that in perspective. I said there was an undertakinP taken to the people of the area that that road would be done. MR. NEARY: On the back of an envelonP? i.m..

MOORES: In which area whether it is DREE or the Provincial Government or a combination of both. We will wait negotiations with DREE as will the other roads in the Province. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: He is still not answering the question. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I would like to inform the honourable members that the thirty minute question period has expired. MR. NEARY: So soon, Sir. I thought we had two or three minutes left there, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The thirty minutes has expired. 7365

- --- · - ~, -... ~ ,. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: - poor, old Steve. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I ask leave of the House in accordance with Standing Order No. 23 that the regular business of the House be adjourned to debate a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely, the report of the Food Prices Review Board on the high cost of food in Newfoundland and Labrador. Now that the Board has pinpointed the cause of high food prices in this Province, the next step, Mr.

Speaker, is to discuss measures that could be taken by the Government of this Province to eliminate the chief cause of high food prices, namely, the superfluous levels of distribution of food products that may have been justifiable in the past but no longer have any real utility today and ways and means by which the Government of this Province can encourage through a special crown corporation or some existing government department the implementation of the food prices review boards recommendations. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please: The matter of the increased prices and the Food Prices Review Board's Report has been the topic of discussion here in the past couple of days. I feel that while we are all interested in it, it does not warrant the adjournment of the regular business of this House to debate that particular topic at this time. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: On motion of the Hon. Minister of Justice, a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Automobile Insurance Act," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR.

SPEAKER: Motion (1) was the resolution that the Premier introduced last day. I think the honourable Leader of the Opposition adjourned the debate. 7366

December 2, 1974. Tape 1807 RH - 3 MR. E. ROBERTS: Well, thank you, Mr. Speaker. Let me first of all, just comment as did my colleague, the member for Bell Island, that 7367

necemher ?, 1974 PK - 1 the fact that this resolution is called today js again a pretty telling examole of nriorities which the administration attached to the business of our orovince. This resolution is being given nrtodtv over the cost of livinp. and over the fisheries and over anv other tonic that the government can rlream of or that the neonle of Newfoundland can conceive of. I think that is a nretty telling examole, I think it is a nrettv dramatic wav to show once agai.n that the government reallv r.o not care at all for the concerns of the average Newfoundlander.

Instead of debating the issues which affect the neonle of this province we have been summoned together at the end of ~ovemher, and I do not narticularlv mind that at all, it is a nleasant wav to snend the nre-Christmas period as one can imagine but we have been summoned together not to discuss the 322 imnortant issues hut to discuss the auestion of redistribution.

Even if we are to have an earlv election as the Premi.er would have us bl"l:1.eve and as I ferventlv hone, I think all of my colleagues hooe that we wi]l have an early election, even if we are to have that surely we could find a little time to discuss such things as food prices. We are anparently going to be allowed to discuss the fisheries a little later on, to discuss the issues that affect neoole all over this nrovince. Well we are not. So we will have to deal with the motion.

The government do have control of the husiness of the House, of course, and so we will have to deal with the matters thev tPnd to raise but let me say that people all over ~ewfoundlanc1 are tal·inr note of this. I do not think that any subject has au1.te so much exerc:hied r,ec,.,le in the last two or three years as thi.s narticular display.

I had thoupht that redistribution although :l.t is of great concern to the memhers of the 8ouse and although it should he of concern to every Newfoundlander, I must confess that I thought that redistribution would ~ot attract very much attention at all from neonle around the province. Nor has i.t. Let us not fool ourselves or delude ourselves for one second, Mr. Speaker.

We may be here for the next two or three days and all of us up saying a fe~• words or a few hundred or a few thousand words on redistribution and on the resolution hefore the House, then ur,on the bill which in due course will follow it. lledistribution has not drawn the comment. m,at has drawn the comment, is 7368

f\ecemher 2, 1074 'l'ape 1sns :OK - 2 the fact that here we are talking about it and takinfl'. UP the t:ll'lP of the House in dealing with it and we should he deal 1n!': 1'Tith infinitively more im1>ortant 1.siaues, the Achoo! tax. The school tax. Who ii;ets excited? T satand to benefit from the school tax. Ny little accountant tells me Tam now paying $1?0.00 a vear, heing $12.00 a month for each of ten months to the Avalon r.onsol:!dated School Board for school nurnoses here in St. John'ia, an assessment. I will onl v be paving $7 5 c year :l.f the new noll tax p.;oes throur;h. So I iatand to benefit.

That :Is very nice. The extra $45.00 a vear wi11 dourtless pet spent sol'lewhPre else. There are hundreds of neonle anc1 thousandR of ">PonlP in St. .Tol-m's who Pill not henefit, who ,,Till re hit h.4rr1, thP.v are t 1,e neon1e who can least afford it. Order, nle.ase: The honour;,hle mP.l'ther knc,,.,s VPnr uP.11 thjs iR a matter which is irrelevant to thiR resolution. i'l!. P,nllFl>T~ · "r. Sneal,er, it is irrelevant to tallr ahout dPtails on Fchnol ., ___ __ _ tax and '[ ol:>v1oudv rlo not oronose to.

Wh;it is rPlev11nt to the reRolution. ~ir. as: T gha1 J iahnn if T ;,m nprmftten hv the Chair to do it, is that. we are tall·inv here of increasin~ - anc t 11P resolution hefore the House :Is to increa~P thP numl,er of "l'As: at a cost of several hundrr.n thous:and dollars a vr.ar. !;] V', r>fl0 i,., s,il,ar-feia and al 1owmcPs ,il.o.-,r. and heaven knows what in clerks . ~.t a tim"' , .,1,r.n - ;me'! our neon le are hf>ing asked to nav thi R in.crease.

Nohodv el SP j s <>njni; to nav for it, Sir. nree are r1ot <'o-fnp to nay for thj,ia one. 'T'he ''-fnister of TntPr<>overnmental. }ffa1rs or l••hatever - there 1s no cmch title - hut the 'finister of FisheriPs •••ho ha,;; the responsihilitv for hr.inP: in crar~e of liaison he tween here ;ind nttat.•a w-f.l.1 not he ahle to pet nl!fT to agree to t 10 i -s. "e are voi.T1!': to he aiaked to nav for it. The scliool tax th,at is one of the thinpf peonle~rel:!P.ve wP. shouln be tal\:ing about, all over ~1e,-•founc'!land. The government,1n a sense.

I shall welcol'te th~t thev cl.o not rleal witl1 the issues that concern neo!'le hecause thev w11 l <>Pt their answer Phen this Redistribution Bill, when the districts constituted under it come into effect. They will [!:et their answer then. But I do not nronosae to take narrowly partisan attitude. There is nothing ••Tong with nart-fs:an politics, it is nart of the stuff and substance of this House and this svRtem hut I no think there is something that should be objected to and I do object to it, it is 7369

Decemher 7. . 1°74 Tape 1808 PK - 3 that, we , are sitt:ln~ here talk:lnr, about redistributiisn as if it is the only or the most 1.mt,ortant issue and this from the government that used to talk of priorities and used to talk of planning. Their only nriority, Sir, is trying to ~et re-elected. Their only olan is the increasingl,, desperate effort to attemi,t to do that.

December 2, 1974, Tape 1809, Page 1 -- apb They found out in July, they found out in Hermitage, they found out in October 1972 and they found out in Labrador South, as well, their plans and their priorities and they will find out when they get the courage to call White Bay South and when they get the courage to go to the people in a general election. Mr. Speaker, let me begin my few remarks on this Resolution by thanking the Premier for his courtesv in sending my colleagues and me a man of the nroposed houndaries, of the houndaries which would be constituted by the

schedule to the Resolution we now have before us. We asked him and he was kind enough to send us that map. We did get it and it turned out that we did not need it ~ecause my colleague the Memher for Bonavista North, among his many other excellent qualities is a surveyor.

He took the printed schedule, the meets and bounds descrintions and he sequestered himself with an ordinary map of the province and followed it out, the abracadabra that is in here about so many degrees and so many miles and so many this(es) and so many thats and several hours before the Premier could produce his map my colleague had produced his man . I do thank the Premier but at the same time I want to give a little advertising - do the surveyors have a ban on advertising? We lawyers, in theory, do. We have to he "cleverer ·· .

We go outside the courtroom and we are su11posed to tell the reporters our cases and make sure they spell the names correctly but that is not considered advertising. AN _HON._MEMBER: And it was a better map. MR. ROB~ Of course it was a better map. Then again, my friend is a better surveyor. Mr. Speaker, let me reaffirm our support on this side for the principle of redistribution. Let me state quite categorically and this is the first time that I have ever participated in anv way in a redistribution exercise. The last time the seats were drawn or redrawn, whatever the phrase is, was before the 1962 election .

I am not sure just what year the bill came in but sometime between the election of 1959 and the election of November 1962 the present boundaries were drawn, the boundaries constituting the districts from which the forty-two men or ·7371

December 2, 1974, Tape 1809, Page 2 -- apb forty-one men who sit in this House today, the boundaries of the districts in which they were elected. It is the first time I have ever done it. I have never taken

part in the process whether on the executive side or on the legislative side. I was feeling very pleased about it. When the Minister of Justice a year or more ago brought in the bill, we will call it, for the sake of convenience, the Redistribution Act. Its official title is; "The Electoral Boundaries Delimitation Act, 1973," but let us call it the Redistribution Act, the Act under which the commission was constituted and under which they were directed to go out and to draw a aap and to draw out the boundaries. We on this side welcomed it.

I think there were those who felt perhaps we would not or that we should not. There were those who felt that somehow we should object to redistribution because,there is a myth which may or may not have an element of fact in it, it helped my party to have the districts exist as they now are. There are those who take that point of view, that it was much in the interest of the political party to which I belong to insist that the districts stay as they were. I never agreed with that, Sir, nor did my colleagues here. In the debate on the Redistribution Act, I think we made that quite clear.

We supported the principle of one man or one woman, one vote. We do believe and we did believe then and will go on believing,hecause we think it is correct, in a system of tolerances. That is built into the Act. The government either accepted that principle or came up with the same one, it does not matter. The principle is common ground that you do have a system of tolerances. Tolerance in out legislation and I think it is pretty standard across Canada, is twenty­ five per cent above or below the quotient, the arithmetical average, the arithmetical means. I think that makes sense.

Nobody would argue that it is quite as much work to represent 10,000 people living in an urban constituency in, for ex81lll>le, the Constituencv of St. John's South which is mixed surburb and urban. I would not call Kilbride and the Goulds part of an urban area but equally, the part of St. John's South that

Decelllber 2, 1974, Tape 1809, Page 3 - apb lies within the city is very urban. Nobody would argue that it is quite as difficult to represent the people living in an urban as it is, for example; the gentleman, the learned and honourable gentleman from Placentia East whose district stretcbes over quite a distance fr<ll!I the cape Shore right up to and including Long Harbour and to the Head of Placentia Bay. 'rbere is no need to go into it in detail. The people in rural areas, it is generally agreed, turn to their members for matters which neople in urban areas do not. They feel that really it is their 7373

December 2, 1974. Tape 1810 RH - 1 member's duty to look into and also of course by the very nature of the development of this Province,the needs of rural areas tend to be greater than those of urban areas, the needs for water and sewer systems and the needs for roads, the needs for improved public services and communications. These are all needed more in our rural areas than in our urban areas. Whether it should be or not and why it is so is beside the point. The fact is, it is. The gentleman from St. Barbe South is much more concerned about roads because he has to be, than is the gentleman from Carbonear.

The gentleman from Carbonear, his constituents are able, pretty well, to drive on paved roads when going about their normal activities. The gentleman from St. Barbe South, his constituents are not quite as well off except the roads which were paved by Uncle Ottawa under the DREE agreements and in the National Park. There are no paved roads, to my knowledge, in St. Barbe South. Okay, point made. We believe in the tolerances. I think everybody in the House agreed with that. I read through the debates which took place on March 20 and March 23 back in 1973, the debate on second reading of the bill.

Members on all sides supported that principle. Let me say here and now, Sir, the next Liberal administration of this Province and that is only one election away, Mr. Speaker, will insure that the districts in this Province are drawn within the tolerances on a fair and impartial basis of one person, one vote, one man, one woman, one vote. There will be none of the gerry­ mandering which this present bill represents. Now, Sir, the Tories are quite gleeful over this bill. They think it is a very clever 111Gve.

They think that they have somehow,Desraeli phrase, of 100 years ago was "They dished us," that they have done something well that will help them. Fine, let them think what they will. I have no concern for that for two reasons, first of all a very practical one. As a matter of academic interest, if one is to take the present breakdown it differs not greatly from the seventy-one election results or the seventy-two elections results and the percentage of seats which went Liberal and the percentage of seats which went Tory.

That is the simple arithmetical exercise of taking the votes by community in those two elections and redistributing 7374

December 2, 1974. Tape 1B10 RH - 2 them into the proposed electoral boundaries. It is fair enough. That is not the offence. The other point why I lose no sleep on this issue is a very much more general one, a very much more important one and that is that a government that cannot win the greater portion of a vote in a province should not be the government of the Province. I happen to think that is a principle. It can be pointed out by somebody on the other side that in 1971 the Liberal Party did not win a greater share of the vote.

The Tory Party did get more votes than the Liberal Party, but when the dust had settled, it took a couple of months to settle, most of it was from St. Barbe South, but when it did settle and the gentleman from St. Barbe South was,in fact, elected and declared elected as the member for St. Barbe South, the Liberals went out of office. So, we should have, Sir, we did not have support of the majority of the House, we did not have the support of the majority of the electorate. Usually it follows that a support of the majority of the electorate is equivalent to a support of the majority of the House.

In New Brunswick the other day, apparently we saw the opposite. I gather that the Liberals got a few votes, part of a percentage vote more than did the Tories and yet the Tories under Mr. Hatfield were returned as the government. The reason for that is quite simple. It was the third party situation in, particularly the Northern seats, the French speaking seats Parti Acadian, put candidates in about thirteen seats and that had the effect of splitting the vote and allowing some Tories to be elected in districts which otherwise would have returned Liberal members.

The Tory was elected with a plurality as opposed to a majority of the vote cast in the constituencies. Generally speaking the principle of fifty per cent is pretty solid and I happen to like it. I say now that unless the candidate who will run against Your Honour can get more votes than Your Honour then that candidate should not be elected. I believe he will get more votes and he will be elected but we will put that to the hazard whenever the time comes. Let me say as well, Mr. Speaker, 7375

December 2, 1974 Tape 1811 IB-1 that it is time redistribution was done in this province. Since 1962 - the first election fought under the current boundaries - we have had very rapid changes in the distribution of our population. We have had a change in the number of people in the province. Even more important, we have had a change in the areas in which they live. The District of Port au Port, Sir, which Your Honour represents, twelve years ago was well within the population boundaries of the districts in the province.

Yet because of the terrific growth which has come in the Town of Stephenville, it today should be and it is proposed to make it into two separate constituencies. The people are there. Down in the east end of St. John's here, the Pleasantville area, in 1962 had very few electors residing in it. Most of the people who lived there at that time were - well the Americans might have gone but we did not have the terrific population we have now. The whole Northeast Subdivision, the whole area across the back of St.

John's, the whole area which is becoming the proposed seats of Waterford, Kenmount, Mount Scio, Pleasantville - this area had very few people in it or very many fewer people in it in 1962. So, okay, we agree that we should have redistribution and we agree that it makes sense to do it now. That is why we welcome the original bill. That is why we will support that principle and go on doing it. Sir, we are not going to support this resolution nor are we going to support the bill which will come from it. There are two reasons, Sir, why we will not support either the resoltuion or the bill.

First of all, Sir, we have come to the conclusion that fifty-one M.H.A. 's is too many, that we should have forty-two M.H.A.'s, forty-two members in single member districts representing the people of this province. Secondly, Mr. Speaker, even if it were to be granted that we should have fifty-one members in this province, the present resolution does not implement the principle of an impartial commission drawing the boundaries. The boundaries in this resolution were not done by the commission headed by the late ~.r. Justice Higgins with Dr. Swmners of the university 7376

December 2, 1974 Tape 1811 IB-2 and Magistrate Seabright of - where is Gordon Seabright now, Happy Valley or haa he been moved - Magistrate Seabright of Happy Valley and the Reverend Mr. Webber, pastor at Wesley United Church here in St. John's as members. It was not done by them. This was done in the dark of night I venture, by we know not whom but done on· the eighth floor, probably in the Premier's room or in the cabinet chamber with a little population table in one hand and probably the electoral statistics in another and a pencil and a map and a good sense of partisan glee thrown into the mixture.

That is where it was done. That is the same sort of thing, Sir, that was done in all the redistributions we have had before, back in 1834, the first members in the House and the first districts, 1854, 1884, 1885, 1889, 1925 and then the redistributions, the electoral maps since Confederation. None of them were done by an impartial cotmnission, Sir. All of them were done by the government in power and done on a basis, I venture to say, of trying to get the greatest possible number of seats. That is what it was all done about and that is how this bill has been done. Now, Sir, that represents a change.

The Minister of Justice is not here today. I do not know where he is. I hope he is not ill or anything. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: He is down in Grand Bank. MR. ROBERTS: He is down in Grand Bank. Well, he is hiding then. He has not got the face, the gall - I know, His Honour, the Governor was in Grand Bank over the weekend and may still be there for all I know. The Minister of Justice, I hope he will speak on the bill because he spoke for the government on March 20, 1973. He spoke for the government in introducing the bill setting up the commission.

His words make interesting reading now, Sir, when we see how these noble band of reformers, these band of impartial patriots, these gentlemen of honor, of principle, and of concern for the best interests of the people of Newfoundland - let us look at what the honourable the Minister of Justice said. He began 737'/

~ecemher 2, 1974 Tape 1812 PK - 1 his remarks by saying, 1"r. Spealcer, "In rising to move second readine of this bill, the Redistribution Bill, I think that this should he regarded as somewhat of an historic occasion in this House because we are and we will, if the honourahle House anproves the bill, to take out of the hands of government the resoonsib:llity for setting the houndaries, and the nouulation of the various electoral district~ in the nrovince.P That is interesting. I thinlc we should read that apain, Sir.

I am sorry the Premier is not here but T saw him slip by outside maybe he can hear the honeyed words of his colleague and friend, an admirer and fellow worker, colleague, the }finister of Justice, nutat:l.ve Chief Justice of the province, some say. God in Ottawa forhid. I mav add, that the learned gentlemen OPl)Osite I think share the common view on that. returned. The Premier has returned.

Now the Premier has I was 1ust reading to the House for the benefit of the Premier the words of his colleague, the ""inister of Justice, :1.n introducin!? the hill setting forth the government's position, sneak:f.nl! for thP p:overnment, tellinp. the neonle of Newfoundland how their !1'0VPrtl1'1ent, the White Knights, the men :In shinning armour, who had vowed a blood oath to end the dirtv nractice of gerrvma.nderim•. What did the ~finister of Justice say?

Pell let me read i.t again: "Tf this honourable House annroves the hill--, and it was anproved, Sir, unanimously as :It turned out, '"The bill will take out of the hands of l!OVernment the resnonsibility for setting the 1,oundaries a.nri the ponul11t:lon of the various electoral districts in the "rovince.'' Nice ~-,ords, Sir. T-fords w:lt11 which each of us could agree. Words with wh:f.cl1 eacl1 of us d:!d apree. Fords with which some of us still agree.

But, Sir, the ministry onnosite I cannot snealr. for their private members, tl,ev wi] 1 have their onnortunitv ,rnd I will ensure that thev have an opnortuni tv, <:ir, to dee] l'!re tl,ei .r stand on this important princinle. The ministrv onnos:!.te h11v<> t'•r0,.,, that nrinci.nle out the windo,,r. Hypocrisy is one way to describe it. Partisanship is another. Running sea.red is another. The message of July 8, Hermitap.e, Labrador Soutl and October, 1972, is another. There are any number of wavs to descrihe what happened. There are anv number of ways to descrihe the fact trat the Tories marched right up to 7378

Tane 1812 PK - ?. the crunch with this nrincin]e and then backed off. Anv numher of ways hut none of thPm can 1mit:lfy or even satisfactorilv exnla:ln hat,r this great nrinc:!nle, that no longer ~,ould the government rlraw the houndaries, th:J.s s>reat nrinciple ~-,ould he estahlished and enshrined in the law and in the nuhlic nract:lce of our nrovince. It was a great reform. A great step forwarrl. All over "'ewfoundland, Sir, people breathed easier kno1-,ing that after 140 vears of government's setting houndaries, after 140 vears of it, at long last ,-re have an 1.ndeoendent commission.

Now the Minister of Justice said some other marvelous words. We will have the opportunity to consider those at some lenpth too. I do hone the "finister of Just:lce has the face to shat•• in this House and to exola1n, if he can, why that nrincinle has reen abandoned. But, the nr:lnciple was set down , Sir, and •-1e voted for it. Everv member of this HousP. sunoorted that nrinciple. I venture to sav almost every pP.rson in ~lpwfoundland voterl for that princ:lolP. and sunporterl :l.t. Then when the commission ~•as appointed, we rad some fears on t'1is side.

I rlo not mind saving so, we exoressed them duri.np the dehate, ahout the notential for abuse. After all this is the same government that have made that p.;entleman 'Ir. Harvev Cole, a friend of mine but oolitically no friend of m:Jne, the r.hief Electoral Officer. That is a little like outting the fox in the chicken roost. The same administration that did that a oolitical oavoff of great cvnicism and utterlv inannropriate even in the tvne of nol:l ,tical oayoffs that have been known for this administration. l-1e welcomed it. Sir.

Then ,,rhen the Sneaker annointed under the 1 egislation the comm5 ss ion we breathed easier. We felt that the Speal-er hacl 111ade. some excellent chokes the Late Mr. Justice Higgins, a man who was fair and impartial to be chairman and appointerl I believe ~y the Chief Justice, the Honourable Chief JusticP Hr. Furlonl?;, 7379

December 2, 1974 Tape no. 1813 Page 1 - MW a man who knew politics, shall we say, inside and out, a man who had considerable experience with elections, and I might add if rumour be correct, some experience with threats or talk of gerrymandering but a man who knew the electoral system, a man of probity, of fairness, of decency, of honour and of concern for Newfoundland. Added to him on the commission is Magistrate Seabright, a man who knows rural Newfoundland well; a gentleman who, I believe, was a welfare officer before he was - is it translated or elevated to the magistracy? AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR.

ROBERTS: Anyway before he became a magistrate. As a magistrate he served, I believe, in Grand Bank, on the Burin Peninsula. I first got to know him when he served as magistrate at Springdale. He now: serves at Happy Valley,on the Labrador, as magistrate. He is a man, again, of impartiality, of fairness and of deep knowledge of rural Newfoundland. Then we had the Reverend Mr. Webber, a minister at Wesley Church here in St.

John's, a gentleman who achieved a great status; a man whose integrity requires him and rightly so to speak out on issues, a man who would not be part of any gerrymandering or any improper activity nor would any of the other members on that commission. Then added on to it another man of integrity and of stature and of deep knowledge, Dr. Sunnners, Professor of Geography, I believe, at the university; a man who knows a very great deal about Newfoundland and about the way in which our people live and about the social and cultural and economic factors that influence their lives.

These are . factors, quite properly and the legislation required it, to be taken into effect in drawing district boundaries. I think we felt easier, Sir, we felt that the principle was established and enshrined. We felt that in the hands of these men, things were in good hands. When their report came out, we looked at it eagerly. I guess every Member of the House of Assembly did. Anybody 7380

December 2, 1974 Tape no. 1813 Piage 2 interested in politics looked at it. Then we made some reconnnendations and other people did. We will come back to that. Then they made their final report, the one which, we believed, perhaps naively but genuinely, would be carried into law. Instead we are faced with this resolution which represents a gerrymandering. There is no other word to describe it. It is the old-fashioned idea of taking your little pencil and taking your little map and drawing the boundaries to try to benefit you and to hurt your enemies. Fair enough! I guess that is the prerogrative of government.

I am not particularly concerned. Gerrymandering cannot atop a government being defeated. It did not stop Joe Smallwood, if he gerrymandered, from being defeated. It will not stop the present government. It cannot and it will not. It cannot be done and it will not be done. I say, without any hesitation now, that the Tories chances of getting back into government are no greater with this new electoral map. In fact they may be somewhat less. Why? Because, I think, people all over Newfoundland feel that fifty-one M.H.A.'s are too many. I think right-thinking people all over Newfoundland feel equally - AN HON.

MEMBER: Forty-two is too many. MR. ROBERTS: Well if the cap fits, those on each side should feel free to wear it. MR. DOODY: I will get one. The leadership convention is over. MR. ROBERTS: Ours is, yours, Sir, is yet to come. The people all over Newfoundland, Sir, right-thinking people, people who are concerned with this, are disturbed and angry and upset. They are not out rioting in the streets.

There has been no meetinf in Northeast Crouse recently to pass a motion at a public meeting to the effect that the government should be censured because they have not adopted the report of the independent commission because they have abandoned this principle But, Sir, right-thinking people all over Newfoundland, people who believe genuinely that the Tories might do something 7381

December 2, 1974 Tap .. no. 1813 Page 3 that most politicians do not, that is to live up to their promises and their commitments. People all over Newfoundland are disillusioned, disappointed, shocked and upset. It is probably the greatest boost that my party has had all week. We get a lot of boosts these days from a lot of people. I am going to be very interested to hear the gentleman from St. John's South, the gentleman from Placentia East and other honourable gentlemen,who are not in the cabinet, describe their feelings.

I would like to hear them say whether they support this abandonment of the prin¢iple because the principle is clear, Sir. The Minister of Justice, speaking for the government, laid it down. The principle is that an independent commission shall draw the boundaries. There are very few weasel words, very few. "Hr.

Speaker, (The Minister of Justice speaking) I would suggest to this honourable House that no responsible minister and no responsible collDllission would tolerate nor would it be possible for there to be any change in any report that comes from the commission." The Member for Burin, Sir, speaking on March 20, 1973. A little further down he weasled just a little, teensy, weensy rit. I will find the reference in due course. He said that it would take compelling reasons or something like that to change it. I will prove, quite conclusively, that the Premier was =able to find any compelling reasons.

There may have been some but, if so, he was not able to find them at all. I will be interested to hear people, who stand by principle, openly and honourably, explain how they can countenance setting up a commission, impartial, men of stature and integrity, men of knowledge and experience, not political hacks. Jim Riggins, Bill Summers, Ralph Webber and Gordon Seabright are not political hacks. Each party has political hacks, Sir. It is a fact of political life. These men do not fall llllder that Rubicon - setting tµem up, letting them go through the exercise for 7382

Decembe.r 2, 1974 Tape no. 1813 Page 4 twel~e months, of having a hearing in twenty-two or twenty-three places throughout the province, briefs being received from thirty, forty or fifty individuals in groups, presenting two reports, a preliminary one and a final one,then having it dished and dished on the eighth floor of Confederation Building. Mr. Speaker, I would like to hear men speak to that principle. They will have the opportunity to do so. They will have the opportunity to record their votes: The gentleman from St.

John's North, the gentleman from Grand Falls, the gentleman from Port de Grave, the gentleman from Harbour Grace, the gentleman from Bonavista South, the gentleman from Bay de Verde, the gentleman from Trinity North I suppose he is neither in the cabinet nor out of it. Well that is not parliamentary, I will not say that. I have named every backbencher in the House at present. The ministers, I take it none of them have left the cabinet over this, can be taken to have changed their minds and, Sir, they now abandon this principle of an impartial commission. That is gone now. That is gone along with public tender.

That is gone along with public tender. That is gone along with planning and priorities. That is gone along with all the other things that the Tories used to talk about hut do not anymore. That is gone now. It is swept under the rug and into the ash can and history. You can forget about that now. We forget about that particular reform. The commission was set up. It did its work and for no reason at all, except maybe a little electoral expediency, we are going to abandon it. So be it! The people of Newfoundland have noted this, Sir. The people of Newfoundland know full well what happened.

They shall not forget it, Sir. Mr. Speaker, let me leave that fertile subject for a moment or two, I will come back to it. There are one or two words yet to be said. Let me speak on the question of the size of the membership of this House. Let me say right at the start that we have 7383

December 2, 1974 Tape no. 1813 Page 5 changed our minds. If Your Honour wished to devote an hour or so this evening instead of watching Wojeck or whatever happens to come on television tonight and happens to tickle, Your Honour's television fancy, if Your Honour were to take an hour or so and to cuddle up in front of the fire with the Hansards, Your Honour would find that when we spoke in the House, in 1973, we said that we thought the size of the House should be increased to fifty-one. So we did, We have changed our mind. We now think that fifty-one is too many.

I say to the government that I implore them to change their mind on this issue, to admit that what seemed right and appropriate a year and one-half ago is not right and appropriate now. We think, Sir, that the House should be redistributed on the basis of forty-two seats, forty-two single member seats. We think the commission should be instructed to get back - it would have to be reconstituted - Mr. Justice Higgins, of course, died in the interim. There should be a new chairman appointed. I think Mr. Webber and Mr. Seabright and Dr.

Summers are admirable choices, up to the Speaker, They should be told to get cracking and to brjng in a bill with forty-two seats. It would only be a couple of weeks work at the most. The House co~ld tell them to bring it back by the end of December or by the middle of January. Mr. Speaker, if the Premier is so all-fired anxious to have it put through, if it is such a great priority, then let us do it. The House can meet any time in the new year. It can meet any time the Premier and the government want it to. We do not even have to prorogue this session.

We do not even have to have the formality of an official opening with the Speech from the Throne and the debate on the Address in Reply and all those things. If it is so all-fired urgent, if all business of the public of Newfoundland must stand aside, until we clean up the question of redistribution, then let us get cracking at it. It will not take long. After all the government have had the report now. The final report of the coDD11ission 7384

December 2, 1974 Tape 1814 IB-1 was submitted - there is a date on it somewhere, always a date on these things - December 14, 1973, nearly a year ago. The government have had that report in the Speech from the Throne which opened this session, ten months ago. The govermnent announced with great solemnity that there would be legislation laid before us. It took them ten months to get it laid before us and now all of the sudden it is a priority. Maybe it means we are going to have an election, I hope so. I would dearly love an election now. I must admit I am being very selfish in that.

The Premier looks quizzically at me. I will even give the Premier a lift down to Govermnent House if he would like to call upon His Honour the Governor and advise a dissolution. Nothing would give me more pleasure, nothing would give this party more pleasure, nothing would give the people of Newfoundland and Labrador more pleasure than an immediate dissolution. We have just got ti.me, Sir, to sneak it in before Christmas.

Polling day would be Christmas Eve, What a present that would be for the people of Newfoundland and Labrador, Sir, what a merry Christmas it would be in Newfoundland and Labrador, what a merry Christmas it would be and what a happy and prosperous New Year it would be because the Tories, Sir, would have got the royal order of the boot. I am all for that. Anyway, Sir, I do not think that this legislation is that all­ fired important that it cannot wait six weeks for the commission to sit and to redraw on the basis of forty-two. They have been through it. They know the considerations.

They know the population figures. They know the combinations that can be made and cannot be made. They fittered around on the map, They have jiggled around. They know the province. They know the considerations that are taken into effect. It would not take them very long to do it. Then we would only have forty-two M.H.A. 's. We would save the province $130,000 a year in salaries to begin with. Not a lot of money I agree. We are spending three quarters of a billion dollars this year in round nlllllbers. $130,000 is not a lot of money, no but, Mr. Speaker, it is money we do not need to spend.

Whether we are spending $750 million or $750 billion, we surely do not have any to waste. I heard on the radio today, Mr. Francis MacDonald from the Goulds or Kilbride, saying that the whole milk industry is on the verge of going 7380

December 2, 1974 Tape 1814 IB-2 under. Most of that is down in the Kilbride, Goulds area, the St. John's South District because the cost of feed is going up and the cost of everything else is going up and although the price of milk has risen, it apparently has not risen enough. We have $130,000 a year to fling around. I would rather put it into subsidizing milk than I would into subsidizing an extra nine M.H.A.'s. I would rather put it into extra police in St. John's. I would rather put it towards subsidies for trawler fishermen that are going to come. I could name at least· 1,000 items of public expenditure, Mr.

Speaker, which should have and in the eyes of the people of Newfoundland, do have a greater priority and a greater claim on public funds than an extra nine M.H.A.'s. Indeed, Sir, I suspect if we were to take a poll across the province or have a referendum across the province, we would find that most Newfoundlanders probably think that forty-two M.H.A.'s is too many. Let us look across Canada, Sir. Just look at the figures across Canada. We take it on the basis of population per member. We start out in Saskatchewan. It is a nice place to start, Saskatchewan. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.

ROBERTS: All right, we will start in British Columbia if the honourable gentleman feels that his mind can only grasp things in order of that type. We will do it. Let us start in British Columbia. The estimated population of British Columbia in July of this year - that is the most recent figures that Statistics Canada can provide - was 2,402,000 people. They have at present in that legislature fifty­ five members. Interesting enough not all of them are in single member districts. There are seven dual member districts in that legislature.

The population per member in British Columbia is 44,000 or if the gentleman from Green Bay wishes to try it out, it is 43,672. Let us call it 44,000 rounding it up or down to the nearest thousand. That is British Columbia, 44,000- 7386

December 2, 1974 Tape 1815 IB-1 Alberta had 1,717,000 people and it had seventy-five members each of whom represented a single seat constituency. That gives you 23,000 per constituency and per member, 23,000. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: How does the honourable member relate that to geography? MR. ROBERTS: How do I relate it to geography? How do I relate the price of fish to the honourable gentleman's salary? I do not but I could tell the honourable gentleman a lot of people in Green Bay do.

The next province coming east for the benefit of honourable gentlemen who do not know including the gentleman from Green Bay, I fear, is Saskatchewan, 908,000 people. They have sixty members. That gives you 15,000 people per member. Then we come into Manitoba, 1,012,000. Fifty-seven members in the Manitoba House and 18,750 is the quotient, 17,750-18,000 people. The next province, of course, is Ontario, 117 members, the largest provincial legislature, the largest province, 8.1 million people.

That gives them 69,000 people per member, 69,000 men, women and children in Ontario on the average, on the arithmetical average, elect a member to the Ontario legislature, their provincial parliament as they call it. The National Assembly of Quebec has 110 members of whom 102 are Liberals and eight are others. I am sorry 101, they lost the by-election. There are nine in opposition now. In Quebec 110 members represent 6 million people, 6.1 million people as of July, 1974. That gives you 56,000 per member. The next province coming down, of course, is New Brunswick, 663,000 people, 58 members, 11,400 per member.

Then you come into Prince Edward Island which has thirty- two members for 117,000. That gives them 3,700 per member. The smallest by the way, needless to say, the smallest number. We have Nova Scotia which has forty-six members representing forty-three seats for 814,000 people. They have 17,700 people per member. So, Mr. Speaker, you can see across Canada there is quite a variation. The lowest, leaving aside Prince Edward Island - in Prince Edward Island, I might point out, that with 100,000 people, they have got to elect a legislature of at least twenty-five or thirty people. So, 7387

December 2, 1974 Tape 1815 IB-2 I do not think that figure is particularly relevent, the 3,600 figure here. The lowest next to us is New Brunswick with 11,400 people. In Newfoundland, Sir, if we stick with the fifty-one, if the government proceed with this ill-advised course, you will have 10,647 people per electoral district. The population of Newfoundland is 543,000 according to the Dominion Bureau of Statistics now called Statistics Canada as of July, 1974. Well, interesting enough the government's figures on redistribution only add up to 514,000 people. There are 30,noo people lost somewhere. Anyway, Mr.

Speaker, we do not need fifty-one M.H.A. 's. If we stick with the forty-two, we have 13,000 people per member. That is well within the - I am sorry? AN HONOURABLE MEl·IBER: Inaudible. ------ !1R. ROBF.RTS: I do not know if we voted for it or not. I have changed my mind. I implore the honourable gentleman to admit that he too can change his mind. It takes a man of some intelligence and some courage to change his mind. So, I say to the honourable gentleman, I expect him to change his mind. One should never be afraid to admit that one has made a mistake. The people in Newfoundland are not afraid to admit them.

Ask them in Bonavista, Trinity, Conception. Ask them in Grand Falls, Hhi te Bay, Labrador. Ask them in Hermitage. Ask them in Gander Twillingate. Let us ask them throughout this province and we will get . the answer. I said to the honourable gentleman - the honourable gentleman from Bonavista South may not have been in his seat, he may have been about his lawful concerns elsewhere - we changed our mind. We do, you know. We do change our minds once in a while. What is wrong with that? We do not think that Newfoundland needs fifty-one M.H.A.'s.

We think forty-two men and women could adequately represent the people of this province and can speak for us and can decide the issues. In an age when all we hear is the rising cost of government, and we hear on every hand the concern with the growing costs, why cannot we in this legislature take a stand. Forty-two is enough, forty-two people 7338

December 2, 1974 Tape 1815 IB-3 have governed this province, forty-two people made up the present government, the House of forty-two. Why the magic nUJ11ber of fifty­ one? I will tell you why, Mr. Speaker. The only reason that there are fifty-one members being proposed is to try to justify the swollen size of the present ministry. That is the only reason. That is the reason that fifty-one was chosen. It was not a matter of throwing dice or of consulting the entrails or of ringing up Zolar or reading the Horoscope in the "Daily News" or the "Evening Telegram" or "The Amazing Kreskin" on the television. cabinet.

No, Sir. Fifty-one to justify a swollen The Premier had the gall - I suppose he had to defend it although I have never heard a speech with less enthusiasm and less belief in it than his speech on Friday on this bill, this resolution. The Premier said that you cannot govern Newfoundland with fewer than nineteen ministers. That is what we have today, nineteen ministers. Well, I say we are governing Newfoundland with far fewer ministers than we have today because if they were paid by the hour, Sir, half of them would not even get the minimum wage.

Everybody in Newfoundland knows at least half tbe present cabinet have not done a days work in any given week since they were sworn into office. There are some who work hard. I would be the first to admit it. I think the Minister of Fisheries works very hard. He might not achieve very much but he works very hard. I will give him full credit. There are one or two others I could name who punch in a days work but most of them, Sir, have no more idea of what a days work is than they do about what the moon is made of. We do not need fifty-one, Sir. It is an insult to say that we do.

It is only an attempt to justify the swollen size of the cabinet. The cabinet is too large. I would think that next to Ontario and Quebec and 7389

December 2, 1974. Tape 1816 RH - 1 Ottawa, we have the largest Cabinet in Canada. Nova Scotia under both a Tory premier and a Liberal premier manages to get by very accurately with fewer ministers than we have. Even Ottawa governing 22 million Canadi.ans only has twenty-seven or twenty-eight ministers, twenty-eight. Ontario and Quebec with 6 millions of people in one and 8 millions of population in the other do not have cabinets proportionally a great deal lar~er than ours. They have nineteen. Nineteen. I sunpose when '1-'e pet fiftv-one in the House we will probably have about twenty-five in the.

Cabinet. 1 say far better to reduce the size of the Cabinet. There is no reason in the world that Newfoundland cannot be governed adequately with twelve, thirteen, fourteen or fifteen ministers who work. They are carrying a number of angishores, the present Cabinet is, then obviously you a re !?,O inp, to need more. The only reason that I can see why the government have c,p1:,e<l on this magic figure of fifty-one and the Premier did not say this in so many words but he did say it in fact the other day when he talked about the need to have a backbench.

Well I say the way to get a backbench is to put people out of the Cabinet or not ask as many in or do what Mr. Trudeau apparently is doing, sort of rotate people through the Cabinet. They will be in for a couple of years and they will be out for a couple of years, great system. l do not know if it will work, I must say, but it is a p,reat system anyway, in theory. I have my doubts and I think the Premier does too as to whether that type of thing really is terribly practical in the Canadian context.

The fact remains though that our r.ahinet is too Jarge and th~t now to add insult to the injury of too large a Cabinet we are now going to be asked to approve too large a House. I say to the government that we have changed our minds on it and I would ask them to change their mind. No harm is done. Nobody in Newfoundland will yote against them because they have changed their mind.

I do not know of anybody in Newfoundland other than some gentlemen on the other side and maybe the people who make election material who will obviously do better because there is more material to be bought; I do not know of anybody who thinks we need fifty-one M.H.A.s. I do not know of one voice that has been raised anywhere in this Province 7390

December 2, 1974. Tape 1816 RH - 2 tQ demand fifty-o .ne M.H.A.s, not 0ne, not a single voice, ri~ht from Cape Race to C.ape Chidly' and all the way down to Cape ~ay and come across the southwest coast again to Cape R.ace. So, why do we not have forty-two? Refer it back to the c011111ission. Appoint a new Ch:a:irman. It will be hard to find a man as well qualified as Jim Higgins but there are men. None of us fs, indispensable. Men can do the job. Maybe one of the p~ent cODD11issioners could become Chairman and then a fourth commissioner could be appointed. Give t'liem six weeks. That is long enough.

They have done all of the spade work. They know the ins and outs of it now. They have mastered the 7391

December 2, 1974. Tape 1817 RH - l subject. Indeed I think either their first or second reports can be considered a masterpiece of dealing with a difficult subject and coming the grios of it. Give them six weeks so that when we come back in the new year, if it is urgent to deal with this business, if all other matters should stand aside, if the cost of living and the fishery and the need for imoroved services and the need for economic development and the second refinery and the Lower Churchill,if all of that should stand aside to deal with redistribution then let us deal with it in the new year.

What is the urgency? If we are going to have an election before Christmas let us have that. I doubt if we are. I hope we are. A.~ HONOURABLE MEMBER: St. Patrick's Day. MR. ROBERTS: Well, maybe St. Patrick's Day. It would be a great day, a great day for the Irish, O'Roberts, O'Neary, O'Thoms, O'Rowe, O'Simmons, O'Winsor, O'Gillette, O'Woodward and "O" everybody else. It would be a great day for the Irish. Ank could wear his green for envy. Now, Sir, - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.

ROBF.RTS: I mean the eight of us, maybe nine, if the honourable gentleman from Labrador South comes to the conclusion that we are on the right side of the issue, if he agrees with our position, the nine of us are not poing to outvote the thirty or thirty-one on the other side who vote. Your Honour, although I have no doubt in realizing Your Honour is on the other side, Your Honour does not vote in the House, a wise thing. As a rule, Your Honour can vote when he wishes of course but I just asked the government to change their minds. No harm would be done to do it. Nothing would be lost.

Public interest would be helped, not hurt. We only have forty-two M.H.A.s and that is enough. There are those who suggest we go smaller than that. That could be done too hut I suspect that if we go much smaller than that the House much smaller than that, we would end up in the rural areas with very, very unmanageable districts. With forty-two, the districts would be manageable. It would certainly mean that some districts would be moved from the rural areas into the urban areas. Balance has to be changed. My friend in St. Barbe North has 2,500 electors. St. Mary's has about 4,000, no, under 3,000.

Labrador South, I 7392

.., December 2, 1974. Tape 1817 RH - 2 think, 2,200. There might be some justification in the case of Labrador. That is in the legislation. But these rural areas, the districts would have to be made a little larger even with tolerances. But I still think we would have districts that are workable. There would be no district that is any larger or any more difficult than the proposed Baie Verte­ White Bay District or the proposed Straits of Bell Isle District. I am a little sensitive about those because they affect my own seat and I do not want to seem to be pleading on a special cause.

I am not the least bit concerned how the government draw the boundaries on the Northern Peninsula. I think I made it on Placentia West. The only problem is I would have to ask about twenty people to stand aside. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: I have already gone through a leadership convention which is more than I can say of the honourable gentleman opposite. I have done the one thing the honourable gentleman has not. The Minister of Fisheries could not for all the money he spent, could not do it. _!.N HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Well, maybe he knew him too well. I do not know.

Maybe Jameison knew the honourable gentleman too well. That could be too. MR. CROSIBE: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Right, right, but I have not, Mr. Speaker, I have not lost. The honourable the Minister of Fisheries - I have not lost and the honourable Minister of Fisheries has lost and is losing each day. He is sitting over there trying to put the best foot on it and the best fact on it but he is sitting there every day. MR. CROSIBE: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: But still, he did beat the honourable gentleman opposite. Now, Mr. Speaker, the House of forty-two is large enough, perfectly large enough.

The seats: there would obviously need to be some change in the boundaries and so there should be. We would still end up with perfectly mana~eable and perfectly workable seats, seats which men or women could adequately represent the feelings of their constituents and in turn could adequately attend to the requests and the needs of their constituents. 7393

December 2, 1974. Tape 1817 RH - 3 We would not be saddling Newfoundland with fifty-one M.H.A.s. Who was it, was it F. E. Smith who said that Newfoundland has the trappin~s of an elephant on the back of a mouse and he became Lord Chancello r of England at one sta ~e, several times as a 111acter of fact, Lord Burkingham he then became, but some Englishman poking sport at we poor Colonials 7394

December 2, 1974. Tape 1818 RH - l a number of years ago. They called him Galloper Smith . A number of years ago some Englishman poking fun at we Colonials here in Newfoundland said that Newfoundland has the trappings of an elephant on the back of a mouse. Well fifty-one M.H.A.s and nineteen ministers is exactly that, the trappings of an elephant on the back of a mouse and a pretty undernourished mouse these days. Mr. Speaker, let me say a few words about the resolution now. I mean all of this is just by way of introduction and by way of getting used to speaking in the House. It has been six months laying off.

There are a few remarks which I would make and although I do not propose to p.o through that map as the Premier did, Sir, I wonder if we could, it might make it easier unless honourable gentlemen opposite are all familiar with the layout of the new district, it might make it easier if that lovely, gorgeous, coloured chart could be trotted back on to the floor of the House. I have one here but it has not got the lovely colours on it, Sir. Now, Sir, first of all, I looked up, I have always wondered what gerrymander meant. I know where it came from.

I know what it meant and the Premier might like to know because of course his name will be entered into this book now, gerrymander is defined as"drawing of political lines by the party in power so as to perpetuate its power, designating a district to fit its voting pattern." I do not know if it is shocking or not. I feel it is shocking but I find it interesting that the Tories who used to parade their virtue as a woman, no, that is not parliamentary. I bit my tongue on that one.

Anyway the gentlemen opposite who used to parade their virtue have now become street walkers and have sold their virtue for a mess of political potage . The term is derived from the name of the governor of Massachusetts in 1811, one named Elbridge Gerry, a great name, imagine naming your child Elbridge, Elbridge Gerry. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: The honourable member just lost a vote. MR. ROBERTS: It wipes out the Elbridge vote, does it not and I lost the golf course vote in Grand Falls too because I do not think the government should have put $150,000 into that golf course to the west of Grand Falls. 7395

December 2, 1974. Tape 1818 RH - 2 AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Bide Arm. MR. ROBERTS: Bide Arm. I am losing Bide Arm. That is one of the things that is happening in redistribution. Some fortunate M.R.A. will have the glory of representing Bide Arm, coming at me from all directions, all directions. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Where is it going? MR. ROBERTS: It is going in with Baie Verte and White Bay. What do they now call it? Baie Verte-White Bay they are going to call the new district.

Anyway, Governor Gerry was the one who came up with that and gerry­ mandering has created such odd looking districts as the monkey wrench district of Iowa, the dumb bell district of Pennsylvania, the horse shoe of New York, the shoe string district of Mississippi and I might add St. John's West in the Provincial Hcuse of Assembly, I think, falls under the category of oddly shaped district. It says for a modern use of the ancient technique see (

f) frankly the Newfoundland House of Assembly in 1974. So we now have more or less another example of gerrymandering. The government ignored the commission's report completely. They ignored both reports. The legislation required the Speaker to appoint a commission and required that commission to make a preliminary report and to make it publicly and then to hold hearings throughout the Province. This they did Sir. They made their public report. I do not know if there is a date on it or not. There is a copy of it here. The 24th day of August, 1973 the report was made public and then the conunission held hearings.

They planned to hold them at eighteen places throughout the Province. I think they may have held them in fewer places because of the fact that no people chose to come forward in some areas. Then they made a final report which was dated December 14, 1973. They held puhlic hearings, Sir, at Happy Valley, Wabush, Stephenville, Corner Brook, Bonne Bay, Port Aux Basques, St. Anthony, Grand Falls, Gander, Glovertown, Clarenville, Marystown, Grand Bank, Burin, Harbour Grace, Placentia, Calvert and St. John's. 739ti

December 2, 1974 Tape no. 1819 Pagel - MW They received briefs from forty-three separate individuls or organizations. After hearing those briefs, after considering their preliminary report and after hearing the objections on them, the commission then brought in their final report. I do not know if it was ever printed but certainly it was typed and mimeographed and photostated and so forth and all members have a copy of it. We have a copy of the map. The Member for Bonavista North drew one up for us. It is widely known what the map looks like. It did not look a great deal like the map here.

It did in some areas and it did not in others. Now what is the significance of the commission's report, Mr. Speaker? Well let us once again consult with that oracle of principle, that paragon of rectitude and, of course, I speak of the Minister of Justice. It would do the gentleman from Placentia East, well, not to snicker, when I speak of the Minister of Justice like that. I do speak of the Minister of Justice. I would submit that there is nobody else in this House who could be called a paragon of principle on this matter.

I refer to that marvelous debate where the Minister of Justice told us "f the great reform. The reform for which he and his colleagues had fought and bled from one end of this province to the other; a reform which was to enshrine their names in the political history of this province. Gerrymandering would be struck from the dictionary in Newfoundland and we would have Hickmanitis put in to replace it. This same gentleman, the Minister of Justice, still sits in the cabinet, Sir, has still accepted this resolution and the bill to foll .ow.

Indeed for all I know, he may have drawn it up but certainly under the principle of collective responsibility, which is part and parcel of it. What did he have to say, Sir, about the procedure which would lead to a new electoral redistribution? I have already read but I think it is worth reading again, Sir, the marvelous opening words where he summarized and then capulated his argument, 739'/

December 2, 1974 Tape no. 1819 Page 2 "Mr. Speaker, in rising to move second reading of this bill, I think this should be regarded as somewhat of an historic occasion in this House because we are and we will, if this honourable House approves the bill, take out of the hands of government, the responsibility for setting the boundaries and the population of the various electoral districts in the province." That was the principle. He went on, Sir, a little later on, a few minutes on in the debate. "Mr.

Speaker, I would suggest to this honourable House that no responsible minister and no responsible commission would tolerate nor would it be possible for there to he any change in any report that comes from the commission." He is referring specifically to the tab lin11: of the report, Sir. He says that there should be no change. Now here we go, Sir. This is the same debate, of course. It is page 234 7 for those who wish to read along.

"Today we find that people are no longer happy over the prospects of the government of the day, with the majority in the House, sitting down and carefully calculating what number of seats would he in their best interest." Can that be the same honourablP. gent]eman•who still sits in the cabinet in view of this? Of all the hypocritical, two-faced - the whole government - he spoke for the government. He spoke for every honourable gentleman opposite who supported it. He spoke for us but the difference is that we have not changed our minds.

"Today we find that people are no longer happy over the prospect~ of the government of the day, with the majority in the House, sitting down and carefully calculating what number of seats would be in their best interest and how boundaries would be adjusted in order to suit voting patterns throughout the particular jurisdiction over which that particular parliament governs. "I would suggest, Mr.

Speaker, that this legislation will convince the people of Newfoundland that we, as a government, that we, as a House of Assembly, (The ringing declarations of a man who once had principle) are determined once and for all to do away with 7398

December 2, 1974 Tape no. 1819 Page 3 any suggesUons tha.t there can be any getcy1118Dde;ring inso1:ar as electoral boundaries are concerned and voting patterns in· this Province of Newfoundland," Page 2347 of the Hansard, ringing wo.rds of p.rinciple,from a man of principle, from a government of principle. All of it, Sir , in the c:rtmch, is of about as much value as that wh:lch is some.times found mtder fish flakes at 7399

Tlecemher ? 1 q74 Tane 1820 PK - 1 the end of a long hot season. malodorous, odoriferous mess. P groun of men formerlv men of nrinciule. The whole Island, Sir. the whole province now vnows '-'hat sort of ryrinciple this government now stand for. I do not care how the boundaries are laid out. You can argue one way or another and I will deal with the Premier's futile and weak and puny little arguments. You thin!,- the than that. nr:!ced staff he has got could nrovide him with hetter But the ririnc:!.nle, s;r, is that either you have an indeoendent commi~sion set those 1'ounclaries or vou <lo not.

TM s governl'lent told th:i s House and the neollle of this province clel'lrlv and uneouivocahlv that thev would have an i_ndenendent comm"! ssion sf't those hounclaries. Thev set up the col'll11i. ssion. Thev n] 11,red the charade tl1rouph. The co1'1111i ssion went a] 1 the .,,av - hm-, clo vou thinv the cornrni ssion wriulc1 feel now ? I cannot 5neaJr for ~fr. Jmit:!ce Higgins, noho<lv can. hut T r,nnr\er 1f anvhodv has asked >-Ir. P.alph Werher and f:i ll.

Summers and C:orclon Seahri l':ht whethc->.r thev wou] rl have gone through trat exercise, if thev h11d realized that at the end of it the Premier and his colleagues and oolitical advisers would closet themselves somewhere down on the eight floor and ~vauld draw up the little lines. T11ey have heen tricked and treated shamefully. They might have not done their work at all for the result of that. The had their preliminary report. They nresented it. They followed the legislation. Thev followed the dictates of the legislation faithfully. They held the hearings. You know.

Your Honour, this seat is nrohahlv jlJe<>al undPr the nresent 11ct. 'Th11t shm,rs hm-• much concern the ~•inister of JusttcP and the House LParlP.r and the ~'inister of Fisherie5 and the Premier and the wl,ole crowd of thPm havP, thev have abandoned thPir nrincinle, Sir. whv? Recause thev i·nm,, what is ~oin~ to hannP.n wjth an e]ectjon anrl this is a feetle and a futiJe attemnt, a rlesnerate attempt by desner11te Men to try. It will not worl:. It did not worl- for Joe Smallvood ~,hen the tide .,,cnt out. It d:frl not Pork for us nor should it. It wi.11 not work for this crowd.

Let me just read that quote again, Sir, This was the minister i.ntroduc:fng- the bill in behalf of the r;overnment. Snealdnr; for the government, no minister rose to contradict him. several others including the Premier rose to sneak in sunnort of i,t. These are tlie words'. hound and shrined on pag-e ?147 of Hansard, the nlace where the Torie5 admitted. once apain, clearly 7400

-"'· December 2, Jq74 '!'ape 1820 PK - ?. hevond any doubt the princinle is a disnensable item with them. They have the same nrincinle as :Inmate of any brodello. Today we f:fnd that renr,le - (Tt is the "linister of Justice now). Today we find that neonle are no longer hanny over the prosnects of p:overnment of the day, Pith the major:fty in the Hou!'le si tti.np, down and carefullv calculating T,rhat number of seat,s would he in their he,st lnterest, and how boundaries shouJ<l be ad_ilrnted 1.n order to su1.t voting natterns throughout the narticular _iurisd1.ctfon over ~mich that narticular narliament governs.

AN HON. ~!F:1'!JlF11.: Inaudible. ----· ··---- ''R. ROBF".TS: I would suggel't, Mr. Speaker, that t~ds legislation w:111 convince the neople of 'lewfoundland that we, as the ,-:overmnent, and that ~-'e as a Hou,se of Assemhlv are determined once and for.all to do away with anv sugp:es:tion that there can he gerrvmanderine: :Insofar .'ls: the electoraJ houndar:fes are concerned and voting natterns in this Province of ~ewfoundland. It 1,s nrettv clear. T,Tords you could hail. 't'he gentleman for Whitr- Bay South led for us :In t"'1e debate.

Fe snoke and he hai.led thnse Tmrc'.<a, in that ST'leech. nther honourable gentlemen spoke. It was a sten forward. Phatever the results might have heen in an electoral cnnseriuences, :ft was a step forward and a great stel'> forwarrl. T,Te saw how long it las:ted thou<>h. The commission. Busv men, much to do :In their private lives and their nuhlic careers. It takes several weeks and several months to travel arounn the nrovince, hold hearings, neonle T1rePare hriefs and all of it ended up in the waste basket down on the eighth floor. We get this. We gPt that.

That j,s not even the commission's first recommendations. It is closer to that .thaTl it is to the ,second. Tt goes on, Sir. There are some other gems in here. There are some other gems in here that the }!inister of Ju,stice snake of. A~! HON. "EMBEll: Inaudible. 1'W. ll01lE~TS: '•'ell he ~-ri 11 need a praver meeting, if the man has anv charactP.r, any nolitical character, nolitical princinle he will resi~n this dav but I do not exnect him to do that. I do not expect anything at all from him on tHat. r1n nare 2358, Sir - the minister is coming to the conclusion of his ~aP,na r.arta.

There are some other references but thev refer to individual areas. We will have the nleasure of hearing those. 7401

December 2, 1974. Tape 1821 RH - 1 The minister is coming to the end now. He has made his ringing declaration of principle. Sir, the Magna Carta stands in the shade compared to that preat declaration the minister made in that speech. The Declaration of Indeoendance in the United States of America for which men fought and died means little set beside that.

The Bill of Rights in England, the Declaration of the aims of the French Revolution, Sir, all of these falJ into insig­ nificance compared to the mountain of principle on which the minister took his stand, armed with the shield of righteousness and the whole government there beside . him, Sir, ready to fight to the death, hlood up to their knees for this principle of an impartial co~.mission.. Take it out of the hands of the government, the dirty Liberals have done that. Joey Smallwood who only won six elections did that. Oh, the dirty little fellows. We will not have any more of that in Newfoundland.

We are pure. We do not make any deals with Trizec without tenders, oh, no. We do not make any deals with Craig Dobbin without tenders, no, not us. No, we do not do anything like that, no. We are pure. Purity, a negotiable instrument in the hands of the honourable gentlemen opposite. Anyway, the Minister of Justice, I can just picture him, Patrick Henry, Patrick Henry who said, "Give me liberty or ii:ive me death." Well, the Minister of Justice stood and he said much the same thing, Sir, the same sort of ringing principle.

Page 2358 and the honourable gentleman would like to take it home with him tonight, "It is our hope." Now "our" Sir, does not refer to the district of Burin nor! venture to suggest to the Newfoundland Law Society nor to St. James United Church nor to the residents of Carpasian Road nor any of these groups with which the honourable rentleman is associated ."Our" . can be taken to refer to only one thing in this context, our;· we, the government of Newfoundland, the Premier and the ministry, we, us, "It is our hope," Mr.

Speaker, said the Minister of Justice,"that this bill will commend itself to honourable members," and it did. His hope was justified. I think every honourable member voted for it. I do not know if there was a recorded vote or not. But if there was everybody voted for it. Certainly everybody who was in the House. If I was here I voted for it. 7402

December 2, 1974. Tape 1821 RH - 2 If I was not here I would have voted for it. AN HONOURABLE MEMB.ER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Right, we did. We are men enough to admit it and we are men enough to admit that things now should be changed and I hope the honourable gentleman equally has some manliness left in him. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: l 1 1( It will. It will I am convinced, not dramatically. That is what it said. Well, let me clean up the honourable gentleman's syntax for him. 11 It will convince and provide a very rational, totally impartial formula for arriving at the electoral boundaries of the districts to this ~rovince, that it will result in more meani