Manitoba Hansard — 7 April 1975 (Sitting 36, 30th Legislature, 2nd Session)

30-2-36

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

April 7, 1975 THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'clock, Monday, April 7, 1975 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker: INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS 987 MR. SPEAKER: Before we proceed I should like to direct the attention of the honourable members to the Speaker's Gallery where we have as our guests Mr. Robert Lyons, a Member of the House of Representatives, State of South Dakota and Mrs . Lyons, as well as Mr. John Lyons. On behalf of the Legislative Assembly I welcome you here today.

Presenting Petitions ; Reading and Receiving Petitions; Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Commit tees ; Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports; The Honourable Minis ter of Health. MlNISTERIAL STATEMENT HON. LAURENT L. DESJARDINS (Minister of Health and Social Development) (St. Boni face): Mr. Speaker, negotiations with the Manitoba Medical Association representing Phys icians in Public Service have broken off. It appears from MMl\. statements that collective action by the some 70 physicians in this bargaining unit may occur at an early time.

It is with regret that I contemplate possible action which could include a withdrawal of services . But I am assured that patients will not be abandoned by physicians in our mental hospitals because of ethical constraints upon all physicians licensed by the Co llege of Physicians and Surgeons of Manitoba . The sal ary requests of the MMA have been considered carefully . It is recognized that net incomes for professions in public service must remain competitive with their peers in other jurisdictions and in other sphere s of service.

Nevertheless, the initial demand of be tween 52 percent and 70 percent, and even the modified demand of up to 51 percent increases in one year are in my view excessive and inflationary at a time when inflation is hurting the wage earner and the taxpayer. The present scale of salaries for physicians in public health in our mental hospitals range from $19, 800 to over $36, 900 plus on-call duty paymen ts. In fact the lowest salary including on-call actually paid is $23, 700. The MM..!\ requested salaries between $30, OOO and $51, OOO plus many very expensive extra payments for night and week-end duties.

It must be remembered that physicians in governm ent service are not burdened with overhead expenses and they enjoy substantial fringe benefits including pensions. We have offered the physicians a salary scale which ranges from $27, OOO minimum to $42, OOO plus increases in extra hours payment. These figures represent an increase of ap proximately 36 percent of the minimum and 9 to 14 of the upper figures in a one year contract exclusive of extra payment for after-hours duties.

We believe the salary scale offered is gen erous and financially competitive with private medical practice in similar public service in other provinces. We fully support the view that well trained professionals should be rewarded for their training work and responsibility. The physician in public service in Manit oba are an important component of our health services system . However, as in any collective bargain ing for employee s in public service the give and take of the two sides must be reasonable and within the limits of what the taxpayer can bear. I believe the MMA has pushed beyond that line.

Therefore we are confronted with possible collect ive action of some type. I remain confident the physician in public service will adhere to their professional ethics and ensure that no patient under their care will be abandoned . The Departmen t of Health and Social Development will do all in its power to ensure adequate continuity of urgent and emergency psychiatric and medical public health service to the people of Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland . MR. ARNOLD BROWN (Rhineland): Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Well it's needless to say that we are sorry that negotiations have broken off between the government and the Manitoba Medical Asso ciation. I am wondering about the reports that we're reading in the newspapers and the reports that are coming from the Manitoba Medical Association where it says that salary negotiations are not the only negotiations that they're interested in, that maybe there is a breakdown of communication. I think that these are ways in which the government should be looking after negotiations, and not looking only after the salary end of it. We are pleased to

988 April 7, 1975 MINISTERIAL STATEMENT (MR. ARNOLD BROWN cont'd) .••.. hear that at least for the time being that people need ing psychiatric services will be looked after and we hope that this is going to continue and we hope that the government is going to bargain in good faith with the Manitoba Medical Associa tion. TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. HON. IAN TURNBULL (Minister of Consumer, Corporate and Internal Services) (Osborne): Mr. Speaker, I wish to table information compiled in response to an.Order for Return No. 5. MR.

SPEAKER: Any other Ministerial Statements or Tabling of Reports ? Notices of Motion; Introduction of Bills; The Honourable Member for Flin Flon . INTRODUCTIO N OF BILLS MR. THOMAS BARROW (Flin Flon) introduced Bill No. 21,

An Act to Amend the Horse Racing Commission Act. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Wellington. MR. PHILIP M. PETURSSON (Wellington) introduced Bill No. 24, the University of Manitoba Students' Union Act. MR. SPEAKER: Questions. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SIDNEY SPIVAK, Q.C . (Leader of the Official Opposition) (River Heights): Mr . Speaker, my question is to the First Minister and deals with the Prime Minister and Premiers Conference on Wednesday and Thursday.

I wonder if he can indicate to the House whether it's his intention to speak on behalf of the Province of Manitoba by proposing a freeze on wages prices and profits for a stipulated period of time ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. EDWARD 8SHREYER (Premier) (Rossmere): Mr . Speaker, that discussion I believe will take place on Friday with the Ministers of Finance meeting on Friday. It is not my impression that there will be any great amount of time spent on Wednesday or Thursday with respect to specific measures relative to current grave problems with respect to inflation.

And when meeting on that subject of inflation on Friday, certainly it is my intention to point out as strenuously as I can that there is a very serious problem afflicting the nation and that measures other than lip-service are called for. MR. SPIVAK: Yes, I wonder if the First Minister can indicate whether his government is intending to propose to the Premiers and the Prime Minister that there be a freeze on wages, prices and profits in Canada ? MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, that is not a cardinal principle with me, but if there is a complete absence of any credible alternatives that may well be advanced, yes. MR.

SPIVAK: I wonder if the First Minister is in a position to indicate to the House what proposals Manitoba will bring forward to deal with the so-called lunacy of inflation. MR SCHREYER: Among others an item which we have just finished questions and answers on. MR. SPIVAK: Then I would ask the First Minister to indicate to the House whether the statements that have been attributed to him dealing with wages, price and profit control are merely statements of opinion and not government policy ? MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I've already dealt with that.

I would merely point out to the Leader of the Opposition that the Premiers of all ten provinces last September passed a resolution unanimously and communicated it by telex to the Prime Minister indicating sup port in principle for any systematic action by the Government of Canada that would be taken or could be taken with respect to inflation. I certainly include in that as an alternative the matter that we have just referred to. MR.

SPIVAK: I wonder if the First Minister is in a position to indicate to the House that in his private meeting recently with the Prime Minister, that on behalf of the Province of Manitoba he proposed and discussed the probability or the possibility at least, of wages, price and profit control for a stipulated period?

April 7, 1975 ORAL QUESTIONS MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister . 989 MR. SCHREYER: In the sense , Mr. Speaker, that the meeting should not be a waste of time, we did exchange views as to the diagnosis of the current level of inflation, the extent to which it was a threat to economic well-being of Ca nada and what alternatives were open to us insofar as possible effective treatment of that problem was concerned, and so naturally among other alternatives that of restraint on prices, profits and income was discussed, yes. MR.

SPIVAK: Ye s, I wonder if the First Minister can indicate what the Province of Manitoba' s position will be with respect to suggested oil price hikes that will be discussed at the conference on the 9th and lOth. MR . SCHREYER: Mr . Speaker, I certainly don' t intend to predetermine or prejudge the discussions at that conference by indicating at this time that there was only one possible course of action open to us insofar as Manitoba is concerned .

We see what a logical position is and we intend to take a logical position while, however, not ruling out the possibility that other provinces there may have realistic alternatives to consider with an open mind, and we are also prepared to consider with an open mind. So I'm not going to give definitive indica tion here and now that we are on a course of action which admits of only one position. MR. SPIVAK: I wonder if the First Minister would indicate to the House what the logi cal position and the position that Manitoba will be taking. MR. SCHREYER: Certa inly, Mr.

Speaker, it is as clear as day following night that an increase of $1. lJO per barrel in the price of crude oil results in approximately one full point additional to the increase in the cost consumer price index. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. L. R. (BUD) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Thank you, Mr . Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Colleges, Education and University Affairs. Can the Minister advise the House what kind of

schedule has been firmed up for this week for negotiating ses sions be tween the administration at the University of Manitoba and the striking support staff workers? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. BEN HANUSC HAK (Minister of Educatior;) (B urrows): Mr. Speaker, negotiations are continuing between the two parties to the collective agreement, but the precise details of the hour and time that the two parties will meet I regret that I do not know, nor can I inform the honourable member. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. James . MR. GEORGE MINAK ER (St . James): Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, my question is di rected to the Honourable Minister responsible for MDC. I wonder if the Minister can advise the House if European business interests have been in contact with MDC in regards to the purchase of Flyer Industries. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. HON. SIDNEY GREEN Q. C. (Minister of Mines, Reso urces and Environmental Management) (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, various sources have from time to time sent out feelers to the Government of Manitoba, or to the MDC, and these feelers have been considered from time to time. MR. MINAKER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary question.

I wonder if the Minister can advise if MDC is presently negotiating with any bsuiness interest in the sale of Flyer Industry. MR. GREEN: Mr .

Speaker, not that I am aware of, and I want to emphasize that I'm responding to the word "negotiat ing." As to entertaining preliminary questions, that may be, that has occurred both from the point of view of the MDC and all of those I would not be aware of, because I do not keep in touch on all such preliminary questions, and sometim2s such preliminary questions have been taken up with the government, in which case if there is any thing to float from them they are referred to the Manitoba Development Corporation . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for As siniboia. MR. STEVE PATRICK (Assiniboia): Mr .

Speaker, I have a question for the Honourable Minister of Corporate, Consu mer and Internal Service s. I wonder if the Minister can inform the House if the increase on the price of bread that's been announced over the weekend by major bakeries, is that justified. MR . SPEAKER: Order please . Askingfor an opinion again. The Honourable Member rephrase . MR. PA TRICK: Mr . Speaker, I'll rephrase my question . Has he checked into the cost

990 April 7, 1975 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. PATRICK cont'd) ••..• of increase in the price of breads over the weekend? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Speaker, in accordance with practice that was established some time ago when this department set up an enquiry under the Trade Practices Enquiry Act, some of the bread companies, and particularly McGavins, do notify me of price increases prior to their actual taking effect.

Whether or not those price increases are justified, of course, sir, as you've pointed out, is a matter of opinion, and if I may say in my opinion price increases are not always justified. But this particular increase I have not had the opportunity, nor have my staff had the opportunity of reviewing all the cost inputs and the increase in cost inputs, and therefore determining from that whether or not the retail price increase is or is not justified. But I would think, Mr. Speaker, that because the bread companies, as all companies, are facing inflationary pressures that it could easily be justified by them. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. PATRIC K: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Will the Minister undertake to in vestigate the increase in the price of bread and can he report to the House what effect it will have on the low income people in the province of Manitoba? MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Speaker, apart from a formal enquiry, I can as the member suggests, have an informal investigation undertaken by my very small staff.

But we will attempt to get from the bread companies just what the reasons are for this particular price increase and hopefully that information would be provided in due course to the House, perhaps it could be discussed during my estimates. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to direct my question to the Minister of Health and Social Development. Can the Minister tell this House if any refugee children from Vietnam will be coming to Manitoba? --(Interjection)-- If any refugee children from Vietnam will be coming to Manitoba. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I'm sorry that I can't answer this question at this time. I have no information. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister. I wonder if he can indicate whether Manitoba will be a participant with the Polar Gas group and what form of participation that will take. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, approximately two weeks ago we did have a meeting with senior people of Polar Gas consortium and a proposal was put forward asking the prov ince to give consideration to a possible financial participation in the lower range of - I'll put it this way - amounting to something in the order of a few millions of dollars, less than 5 million as I recall, and I indicated we would take the matter under advisement and give some indication in ample time. And accordingly that's where the matter rests at this point. MR.

SPIVAK: I wonder if the Premier could make it clear that - and I gather from the information that he's supplied that that really is in participation of a study as opposed to a financial interest; or is he suggesting that the amount that he's talking about is a financial interest within the project? MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I certainly could not confirm that there was any re quest for any substantially greater financial participation by the province of Manitoba. There may have been some misunderstanding but I don't believe so.

The request has to do with involvement in a comprehensive study, but whatever the financial input would be in that respect would be prorated in terms of percentage participation in the over-all capitalization of the consortium. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, I have another question for the First Minister. I wonder if he can indicate when the by-elections in Wolseley and Crescentwood will he held. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, that has not been decided, when it is there will be an announcement. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition.

April 7, 1975 991 ORAL QUESTIONS MR . SPIVAK: I wonder then, Mro Speaker - to the First Minister - whether he can indicate whether the constituencies of Cres centwood and Wol seley will be represen ted in this session of the Legislature . MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister . MR . SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, it's entirely possible, but the same answer could be made with respect to previous questions and similar circumstances in years gone by. There have been very many analagous circumstances and situations. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge . MR. LLOYD AXWORTHY (Fort Rouge): Mr .

Speaker, I have a question for the Attorney General. In light of the RCMP r3port that was made public last week which stated that or ganized crime had reached into all parts of Canada, can the Minister indicate to what degree that may be a problem in Manitoba and whether we were included as part of that report, and to what degree the problfcm is in existence here? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. HOWARD PAWLEY (Attorney-General) (Selk irk): Mr . Speaker, I read that report.

Approximately six months ago I communicated both with the Deputy Commiss ioner of the RCMP in Manitoba and with Chief Stewart of Winnipeg, and in letters I was advised that they were unaware of organized crime within the Province of Manitoba. In view of that RCMP report and a recent statement by Chief Stewart, I am of course communicating again with the parties involved in order to update my information which was, as of six months ago, that there was no organized crime in the Province of Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge . MR . AXWORTHY: I have a supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

Could the Minister indicate if he has information to show that any of the 355 people who were listed as major crime figures are resident in Manitoba or do business or have done business or have in some way been domiciled in this area in the last year of so? MR . SPEAKER: Order for Return. The Honourable Member for Birtle-R ussell . MR. AXWOR THY: Mr. Speaker, may I have a supplementary? MR . SPEAKER: Order please . The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge . MR. AXWOR THY: Mr.

Speaker, then I pose a question to the Minister, whether there have been any special provisions undertaken by the RCMP detachments in Manitoba or the City of Winnipeg police to look, or investigate the incidence or possibility of organized crime activities in the province? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-Gene ral . MR. PAWLEY: Mr . Speaker, I am sure that that is a constant continuing responsi bility of the RCMP to monitor the possible existence of organized crime and to ascertain from any information brought to their attention whether or not that information indicates existence of organized crime .

So I have to suggest, Mr. Speaker, that it's a continuing proce ss and very much under constant scrutiny by the RCMP and also by the Winnipeg police. INTROD UCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Before I recognize the Honourable Member for Birtle-Russ ell, I'd like to indicate that in the loge to my right we have a former member of this House, Mr. Gordon Fines. On be half of the honourable members, I welcome you here this afternoon. The Honourable Member for Birtle-Rus sell. ORAL QU ESTIONS Cont'd . MR. HARRY E. GRAHAM (Birtle-Russel): Thank you, Mr . Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Public Works.

Recently tenders were closed on a contract for 198 school buses in this province for the coming year. Can the Minister indicate whether the contract has been let for those 198 buses? At the same time can he indicate how many tenders were received and what the price of each tender was? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr . Speaker, if I may answer the question in part, the balance I think should properly be a matter for Order for Return. Tenders were opened and the tender was awarded to Sheller- Globe Industries in Manitoba, which was the lowest tender of a num ber of tenders.

I cannot recall how many, but most if not all of the eastern school bus

992 April 7, 1975 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. HANUSCHAK cont'd) .. . .. manufacturing concerns submitted their bids. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry . MR. SHERMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Honourable the Attorney-General. I would like to ask him whether he's had a chance yet to determine an answer to the question I asked him on Thursday as to whether formal charges had been laid or were simply pending against the picketers who were arrested on a strike line at the Univer sity of Manitoba last week? MR . SPEAKER: The Attorney-General. MR. PAWLEY: No, I don't have that information.

I'll attempt to have that tomorrow for the honourable member. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. PATRICK: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Honourable Minister of Tourism and Recreation. I wonder if the Minister can indicate to the House if he is backing, or the government is backing one of the bids by Manitoba cities for the 1979 Canada-Winter Games? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Tourism. HON. RENE TOUPIN (Minister of Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs) (Spring field): Mr. Speaker, the 1979 Canada Winter Games have been awarded to Manitoba.

The city or the town that will be decided, still hasn't been reached by the Federal Minister of Health and Welfare in Ottawa, and his decision is arrived at by recommendations of sports associations across Canada and the Sports Federation of Canada. There is consultation be tween myself and the National Minister of Health and Welfare but that decision has not been taken but will be take.n at the latest by 1976. MR. PATRICK. Mr. Speaker, I know it's been awarded but I'm asking which city is the government supporting and to what extent? MR. TOUPIN. Mr.

Speaker, I attempted to indicate to the honourable member that we do not decide and we're not favouring any particular city. We're only indicating in regards to financial participation and the ability of a given city or town to perform and deliver the Canada Games as best they can, but we haven't got a definite preference for a city or a town. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry . MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Honourable Minister of Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs, and ask him whether he is planning any recogni tion of the fact that professional hockey's world record books now contain a significant Mani toba entry as a result of the fact that Bobby Hull scored his 77th goal in a single season last night ? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Tourism. MR . TOUPIN: Mr. Speaker, I join the honourable member and all members of the House in congratulating Mr. Hull for his success. I'm only sorry that the Jets could not get in the playoffs. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, last week the Honourabl e Leader of the Opposition asked in this House whether any of the funds that were granted by DREE, Department of Regional Economic Expansion, Ottawa, were to be moneys available for use or disbursement by the Receiver of CFI, and I took the question as notice. The answer is that the funds in question, some $12 million, slightly in excess of $12 million, are funds that are to go to the account of Manitoba Forestry Resources Limited and not to the Receiver of CFI. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR .

SPIVAK: Well I thank the First Minister for his answer. I wonder then if he can indicate to the House that the DREE grant then was given to ManFor, not to the CFI or to the Receiver. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, the information is perhaps somewhat more elaborated upon, I believe it's on Page 4 of the Auditor• s Report, the most recent copy that was tabled here recently.

In a nutshell, the funds, the $12 million plus, were paid over by the Govern ment of Canada to the Department of Finance, Province of Manitoba, there to be held in trust until certain conditions pertaining thereto, to the grant, have been met by Manitoba Forestry Resources Limited, and we fully anticipate that those conditions will have been met at a point in time later this year. In the meantime, as I indicated a couple of weeks ago, certain advances in the order of

April 7, 1975 993 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. SCHREYER cont'd) .•... $2. 5 million will be made from time to time by the Depart ment of Finance as a draw-down against these funds. I believe that puts it in perspective. MR. SPIVAK: I wonder if the First Minister can indicate whether the funds that were handed over in trust by DREE or under certain conditions, came about as the result of the original application or is this a new funding by DREE to the Complex? MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, it is somewhat closer really to the

interpretation my honourable friend is putting on it. In other words, the original application having been made quite some time ago, some few years ago and having been approved in principle, of course many circumstances change as we all well know, but in the course of renegotiation, if you like, with the Government of Canada it was confirmed that if certain realities obtained, if certain conditions were met, then the original amount of dollars would be made available - approximately the same amount of dollars would be made available but in a completely re structured circumstance or set of conditions.

And that's precisely what has happened. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, my question's to the First Minister, and I thank him for his explanation. I wonder then if he can indicate whether it's the opinion of the government, that is the opinion of his law officers, that there is no claim by creditors of the CFI Complex with respect to any of the money involved in the DRE E amount? MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I cannot give any guarantee that there will or will not be claims filed by certain creditors or alleged creditors, but those claims would have to be tested in the courts and adjudicated upon there.

There is no way I can give an indication in advance whether claims that might be filed will be valid in whole or in part. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOUGLAS WATT (Arthur): Mr . Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Minister in charge of Autopac. I wonder if the Minister could indicate if he• s aware that Autopac is issuing licenses to farm trucks to carry X thousands of pounds according to the size of the truck and their specifications, and then are now being fined for carrying up to that weight. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. HON.

BILLIE URUSKI (Minister for Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation) (St. George): Mr. Speaker, Autopac does not issue licenses to anyone, they facilitate the renewal of registrations. If the owner of that vehicle applies for registration over and above the carry ing capacity of that vehicle and then proceeds to overload it based on the per square inch width of tire to the highway, he will then be subject to the weight restrictions of that highway. MR. WATT: Well a subsequent question then. Can the Minister indicate if he's aware that ..• MR. SPEAKER: The Minister's awareness is not cogent . . . MR.

WA TT: Is he aware --(Interjection)-- All right. Has the matter been brought to his attention then that farmers have been fined and there are some under the courts now for overloading, having paid the license to carry a specified load weight. Or maybe the Minister of Highways can give us some .. . MR. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, from time to time I'm sure that truckers whether they be farmers or commercial truckers who exceed their weight limit are prosecuted for exactly that. Now specifically who is in court or who isn't in court I am not aware, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order of the Day. Address for Papers.

Oh, the Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Yes, Mr . Speaker, I still have a reply to relay to the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition. Perhaps the gist of his last question, his last two questions, was how the problem real or theoretical would be solved if there are valid claims arising still to be met.

And I think it's quite central to the answer to indicate to the Leader of Opposition that at the time when Manitoba Forestry Resources Limited was established by Order-in-Council, this was back in the first half of 1973, well at that time in order to obtain the necessary clearances to proceed to transfer the assets from CFI in receivership to Manitoba Forestry Resources Limited, a formal indemnification was given, an undertaking was given by the Crown to the Court of Queen's Bench that in the event that there were valid claims, that is through and found to be valid by the courts, that such claims would be met by the Crown, and that in effect was the basis upon which the Superior Court agreed to the trans fer of assets as was then carried out by the instrument, the Order-in-Council, I think it was March or April of 197 3 .

I believe that does answer the question directly.

994 April 7, 1975 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. SCHREYER cont'

d) While I'm on my feet, Mr. Speaker, on Thursday last the Honourable Member for Riel asked whether the contract to Federal Pioneer Electric was subsumed or a part of the 31 per cent Canadian content of the Brown-Boveri contract . The answer is affirmative. The Federal Pioneer Electric sub-contract, if you wish, is a major component part of the 31 percent Canad ian content in the entire order. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. Address for Papers. MR. McGILL: Mr. Speaker, I had a question. MR. SPEAKER: I'm sorry. The Honourable Member. MR . EDWARD McGILL (Brandon West): My question, Mr.

Speaker, is to the Honourable the First Minister and refers to the answer he just gave to the question from the Honourable Member for Riel. I'm wondering now, was the contract that Brown-Boveri received for con vertor equipment, and if so, why was the inclusion of large units such as transformers, also part of that contract and form part of the Canadian content? I'm wondering why the two were related there. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, I'm not sure that anything really rises or falls on that particular point but I'll be glad to take it as notice and get the precise information. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. Address for Papers. The Honourable Member for Brandon West. ADDRESS FOR PAPERS MR . McGILL: Mr.

Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Roblin that an Humble Address be voted to His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor praying for copies of all correspondence between the Government of Canada, the Province of Manitoba and/or Manitoba Hydro relative to the converter equipment tenders for Manitoba Hydro and the possibility of locating a Canadian General Electric manufacturing plant at Brandon, Mani toba. MOTION presented. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR . SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, we're prepared to accept this Address for Papers, although I must indicate to the Member for Brandon West that I have a problem insofar as the Address for Papers tends to put into equation, or to relate or to link up the matter of the placing of the order on converter equipment and the possible placing of a plant of CGE at Brandon, Manitoba. As was indicated at the utilities meeting last week, these two matters are not connected. As a matter of fact I would be shocked if anyone were to attempt to some how relate them. MR. SPEAKER: Agreed? The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR . McGILL: Mr.

Speaker, might I just add by way of explanation. If the First Minis ter would prefer to have two separate Orders for Return, that could be arranged, otherwise it could go on the one . MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I think we can accommodate this. I just want my honourable friend to know in advance that they are two separate matters and we'll have to respond in a bifurcated fashion somehow. MR . SPEAKER: Agreed ? (A greed) The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie's Order for Return. ORDER FOR RETURN MR . GORDON E.

JOHNSTON (Portage la Prairie): I move, seconded by the Member for Fort Rouge THAT an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing a copy of the "Whey Plant Proposal .•.• $9, 271" as mentioned on Page 20 of the Milk Control Board Annual Re port 1973-74. MOTION presented. The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. SAMUEL USKIW (Minister of Agriculture) (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Chairman, I think that the Order to say the least is premature in that that matter is still under review and all of the studies have yet not been completed and a decision not being made.

So that to ask for a specific portion of the studies that have been undertaken on that question is totally I � • '

April �. 1975 995 ORDER FOR RETURN (HON . SAMUEL USKIW cont'd) ..... irrelevant to the question. And that further to that, that if we were to move on that project it has been announced in the House that we would move by way of legislation, in which case my honourable friend would have an opportunity to debate all of the aspects related to that decision. So I would have to decline on that basis. MR . GORDON JOHNSTON: I move the Order be put over for debate. MR . SPEAKER: Agreed ? (Agreed) The Honourable House Leader wish to go on Second Readings? MR . PAWLEY: Yes, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you.

Proposed motion of the Honourable Attorney-General. The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR . GRAHAM: Can we have this stand please? MR . SPEAKER: Very well. The Honourable Attorney-General. MR . PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Colleges and Universities Affairs that Mr . Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Logan in the Chair .

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY - EDUCATION MR . CHAIRMAN: I refer honourable members to Page 18 of their Estimates book. Resolution 45 . The Honourable Member for Morris. Order please. MR. WARNER H. JORGENSON (Morris): Before the Minister introduces his Estimates I would like to rise on a point of order relating to the order in which the estimates are being presented.

I know there is no firm rule that suggests that the Ministers have to advise us, but there has been a clear understanding in the past that the order in which estimates would be taken would be communicated to us in advance of the consideration of those Estimates. And on Thursday night we were told, in fact we were told some considerable time prior to that, that the first item of estimates under the Minister's jurisdiction would be the Estimates of the Department of Colleges and Universities.

Now at the last minute the Minister suggests to us that he cannot take Colleges and Universities, he's going to take up the Department of Educa tion. We're prepared to go on with the Department of Education, but I want to remind the Minister that it may be a very small courtesy but if he knew that he was not going to go ahead with the Department of Colleges and Universities, he would at least have extended the courtesy to the Opposition of informing us a few hours in advance of his knowing it. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Education. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr .

Chairman, I very much regret any inconvenience that may have been caused any honourable members of the Opposition but there obviously must have been some misunderstanding. I was of the impression that we would proceed with both of my de partments at the same time, which is again a slight departure from the alphabetical order, no matter in which sequence we take the two departments because there's another in between the two. And then I was of the impression that they would be handled in the same sequence as last year, education first, then followed by colleges and universities.

So I do regret that there was that misunderstanding, but that was my impression. MR . JORGENSON: The Minister should communicate with the House Leader once in a while at least to find out what is being said in this Chamber. Now it seems to me that a gov ernment that is aspiring to lead the lives of the people of this province can't even organize their own business of the House, should at least try to communicate a little bit with one another even if they can't communicate with the Opposition to determine what order and which Estimates are going to be considered. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr .

Chairman, the same point of order, if there is one. My recol lection is that it was announced that I would proceed with my !wo departments, but I do not have a recollection of the order having been indicated at that time. Now I may be wrong, but that has been my recollection. I've not checked Hansard. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 45 (a). The Honourable Minister of Education. MR. HANUSCHAK: Well, Mr. Chairman, once again I do apologize for whatever mis understanding may have been created. Within recent years, Mr.

Chairman, the provincial school system has undergone many changes which in turn have meant that the component parts of a system have also changed.

996 April 7, 1975 COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY - EDUCATION (MR. HANUSCHAK cont'd) . . . • . For example, departmental examinations have been eliminated, course outlines have become guides, the inspectoral role has changed to that of a Field Officer. And these and other changes can be summarized by saying that (

a) the De partment of Education has become less directive and more facilitative, and that (

b) more autonomy and responsibility have been given to local units whether in the case of school div isions, schools, for example , school initiative courses, teachers or students. And these changes should be seen in the context of a Provincial Government's commitment to the goals stated above. And our goals, Mr.

Chairman, they always have been and still are the attain ment of as great an equality of educational opportunity as possible, a comprehensive system of education, the establishment of a system of education which while allowing for individual development pays due regard to societal needs, and a school system responsive to community needs. Historically, Mr. Chairman, these changes are far-reaching.

At least since 1916 when school attendance was made compulsory and English was made the sole language of instruc tion, the school system was intended to serve an assimilative function; while providing what were considered to be necessary skills and knowledge, the schools were also expected to introduce students to what might broadly be called the English-Canadian culture.

One may doubt how effective the schools were in this effort and one may legitimately point out that Manitoba• s educational history is considerably more complex than this suggests, nevertheless it remains broadly true that the schools were intended to Anglicize or Canadian ize students. And similarly educational decision-makers had no doubt about what skills and knowledge were most necessary and accordingly erected a school system which was character ized by tight controls over textbooks, curricula and teachers, enforced by a system of exter nal examinations and inspectors.

And thus it was that even ten years ago there was little doubt as to what was the prupose of a school system. Essentially it aimed at preparing a minority of students for university. And it should be remembered that University entrance at either Grade 11 orl2, junior or senior matriculation was also a prerequisite for many jobs, while giving the rest what was considered to be a basic general education consisting of certain skills and a particular body of knowledge. At the same time during the 1950s provisions began to be made for technical and vo cational education. Inevitably, Mr.

Chairman, whatever its merits this system had certain defects. For example, a sociological research suggests it was class-bound. In broad terms those students who got to university were predominately from middle and high socioeconomic status homes. External controls perhaps necessary, or at least thought to be so when teachers were poorly qualified, cramped the freedom of teachers to develop their own program. To put this another way, students were forced into a particular mould re gardless of their back ground, interests, needs or capacity.

Indeed the departmental examinations emphasized one type of learning only, a recall of factual information with some slight emphasis on essay writing skills. Nevertheless this system had one asset. It could be easily understood. Few people doubted or criticized what the school system stood for. Teachers and students knew their roles. Departmental examinations and inspector's reports served both as an incentive to efforts and as a measure of performance an accountability for both professionals and the general public.

During the 1960s and the 70s, however, for a variety of reasons the system which had established itself in the minds of Manitobans began to change. Demographic changes brought more students into the schools and increased the average length of a student's schooling. Better qualified teachers in both the academic and the professional sense meant that external controls became less necessary and came more under question. Changes in educational and social philosophy encouraged the diversification of curricula. Economic changes both strength ened and increased the demand for technical and vocational education.

Political pressures and social philosophies brought a response to the needs and demands of particular cultural groups, and thus for example programs in Ukrainian were instituted, francophone instruction was made legal, special curricula were introduced for native students, shared services with separate schools were permitted. Inevitably all such changes have produced questioning and confusion in the public mind. Many people, both in the teaching profession and among the general public still hold the traditional view of the role of a school system and so have been unable to grasp the nature of

.. ... April 7, 1975 997 COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY - EDUCATION (MR. HANUSCHAK cont'd) ..... what is happening. This is not to suggest that such people necessarily oppose the developments of the last few years, undoubtedly there are those that do. But it seems reasonable to suggest that far more have not yet come to terms, often be cause of lack of adequate information, with the changes . In any case it is understandable and probably unavoidable that the changes in the role and direction of the school system would produce some disagreeable results .

Many teachers, for example, had been trained and had worked in the old system and have found it difficult to exercise their new found freedom . In particular, many administrators have spent their whole career in the old system and thus could not always provide the appropriate support for teachers who did wish to take advantage of the changes.

And again there is no doubt that in some cases both teachers and adminis trators move to a policy of change for the sake of change, and teachers and students in the late 60 s were subject to a whole parade of bandwagons: team teaching, open area schools, contract teaching, individualization, continuous progress, and the list goes on and on ; none of which was ever really properly implemented or evaluated . We have recognized for many years that one program cannot suffice for the education of all students.

However, it is largely true to say that for a long time the university entrance program set the tone of a school . It was regarded as "t he" program and students who could not enter it or remain in it were often regarded as inferior. Further, it was long thought that there was a particular body of knowledge and skills that was ideally useful for all students. However, the traditional task of providing a general education is now complicated by the re sponsibility of preparing students for life in an age of rapid and increasing change .

In general terms, the goals of education today can be more precisely defined as follows: (1 ) to enable students to communicate effectively, communication being so defined as to include the skills of critical learning, critical reading, effective listening, writing, discus sion and argument, notemaking, clear speaking and understanding of non verbal ivlformation.

(2) To develop competence in basic arithmetic and an understanding of the basic principles of mathematics.

(3) To encourage curiosity and critical and creative thinking.

(4) To provide opportunities for students, (

a) to express and exercise originality and imagination and develop an aesthe tic appreciation ; and (

b) to develop civic, social and moral responsibility and judgment; (

c) to develop knowledge and understanding of themselves, their fellowm en , their environment and a relationship among the three; (

d) to develop an appreciation for the importance of co-operation among people and the development of the necessary skills for co-operation ; and (

e) to acquire lifelong habits and attitudes that promote physical and intellectual developme nt. Mr. Ch airman, the role of the Department of Education is to encourage, foster and facilitate the achievement of these aims while realizing that the school system is not solely responsible for their achievement. However, the Provincial Government can and should indicate in broad and flexible terms some programs that by general consensus are essential to the achievement of these aims and objectives, particularly if a due balance be maintained between individual and societal needs .

And beyond this, however, the development and implementation of programs to enable students in particular schools to achieve the general aims and objectives should be the responsibility of the school themselves. An d thus the revised high school program commencing on a voluntary basis in September 1973 allows schools, teachers and students to develop courses on their own initiative and these can refle ct the individual needs and interests of students in communities.

This provision affects approximately only 15 percent of the student's time for the public school program does and must contain a common base of subjects and skills . In fact, the high school program continues to place a strong emphasis upon the development of basic skills and knowledge, a process which accounts for about 85 percent of the student's time. Critics who have pointed to supposed decline in the area of basic skills should note the emphasis given to this area in the program.

It should also be noted that the preliminary results of a Manitoba survey on standardized tests reveal that children at the elementary level are continuing to score above the national norms in basic skills. Students who in earlier years would have been screened out of the system are now proceeding through it. The question we should be asking about standards is, how many students can we take how far, and not how standards declined, or have standards declined.

998 April 7, 1975 SUPPLY - EDUCATION (l\ffi. HANUSCHAK cont'

d) The department has encouraged a school organization which allows for learning processes based on: inquiry, discovery and research by the student, individual independence study, group instruction, small group interaction and active participation in the community. It has also recognized that the knowledge explosion in most subject fields indicated the futility of emphasizing only the gathering and memorizing of facts and details which used to be the goal of departmental examinations .

Because of these considerations Manitoba, like most other provinces, has turned to school-based evaluation of students as a more effective and appropriate measure of student achievement than tests for fact retention. However, the department, mindful of its evaluative responsibilities, is conducting trial projects and school based evaluation with a view to improving the system. Within any general program, however, if the government• s aims are to be met there must be the recognition that there are unique demands that are and will continue to be made.

For example, the government is concerned for those too long neglected by our society. It has rejected the concept that only the children of the privileged and academically oriented should be properly educated. It has now recognized that every child has different learning styles; we now recognize the necessity of allowing for and encouraging the individual differences of students, the kinds of differences that compromise a richness and strengths of any society.

Within the department, there are established several branches with activities which are designed to provide assistance to schools and school divisions to enable them to foster our multi-cultural heritage and to meet the goal of responding to individual and community needs. The assumption behind the following developing programs was that individual growth is an important major goal of education and that this is most likely to occur in a climate supportive to individual needs, abilities and interests . And I'd just like to briefly outline some of the programs that have been instituted with this in mind.

Le bureau de !'education frangais was developed in recognition of our French cultural heritage which is an integral part of our history. The Native Branch was developed in recog nition of the fact that yet another cultural group with a rich heritage was poorly served.

The Rural Education .Alternatives Program was developed to strengthen rural schools which are focal points in rural areas and assist the school divisions in reaching out to encouraging community participationo Urban programs are being developed to meet the unique needs of core area urban schools and to tap the rich cultural resources of their communities. Vocational programs. Regional comprehensive schools have been built to provide access to vocational programming for all children.

And as part of this effort an alternative delivery system, the Red River vocational program was developed among four divisions to provide joint services to children in the area. The school milk program, which has been operated in the North for one year and the school nutrition program which commences this month were developed to suppleme nt nutritional needs of children. It should be emphasized, Mr. Chairman that such a variety of programs and projects is not symptomatic of pragmentation or of a lack of direction. Far from it.

They are rather the concrete evidence of the government• s attempts to implement an educational system which while serving societal needs is also responsive to the special needs of specific groups within the province . Some of these programs have helped to strengthen local divisional initiatives. The department has also strengthened local divisional efforts in a number of other ways which range from the development of guidelines to grants to divisions for the provision of services. For example:

(1) In the area of curriculum, course outlines have become suggestive rather than prescriptive . Teachers are encouraged to adapt courses to local conditions. The Curriculum Branch' s Steering Committee for alternatives in social studies, for example, is presently working on methods of assisting teachers in developing curriculum at the local level.

(2) School initiative courses and student initiated projects provide more autonomy for teachers and students.

(3) Demonstration grants have enabled divisions to try a variety of alternatives with funding made available for experimentation.

April 7, 1975 SUPPL Y - EDUCATION (MR. HANUSCHAK cont'd)

(4) In addition, the province has initiated projects . For example, in the past year Child Development Services now a branch of the department has expanded from two pilot projects serving 8, OOO children to 50 , OOO children by developing services in the 999 south central area and expanding its northern services . It was established for the purpose of assisting parents and school personnel in recognizing and dealing with emotional, social and other learning difficulties experienced by children.

And as well, the province has granted funds to four divisions which requested funds from the Child Development Branch to provide their own supports for children with special needs .

The government is well aware, however, that decentralization if carried too far can result in increasing inequity and thus the department has to maintain whatever central authority is necessary to ensure that equality of educational opportunity and service is maintained to the greatest extent possible throughout the provinceo Indeed it is also responsible as an agent of Provincial Government for insuring that societal concerns are not ignored. In short, a due balance must be maintained between individual development and the interests of society as a whole .

In the discharge of this responsibility the department has undertaken: (1 ) The development of broad guidelines for local initiative in appropriate areas, for example, a revised high school program has given divisions, schools, teachers, autonomy in developing options for skill development, but at the same time has maintained guidelines for minimum basic skills and knowledge ; (

b) the evaluation

section is developing guidelines to develop in divisions the capabilities necessary to carry out evaluation; and (

c) program grants have enabled divisions within guidelines to assume more autonomy in innovation. Another, the development of Support Services . For example, the expansion of the Child Development Services that I have mentioned, evaluation with consultative rather than regula tory functions.

(3) A finance committee has been established to review and recommend upon fiscal provisions . And I may add that represented on this finance committee are all the interest groups, the teachers, trustees, the superintendents and the school business officials. As noted earlier, when an institution has been established to serve one purpose, it cannot easily change direction and thus various branches in the department are being integrated to enable the department to play an effective leadership role in the development of divisional community support services.

This integration includes the department' s resources dealing with special program and support services . For example, Child Development Services, Special Education Branch, the Student Personnel Services, are being amalgama ted to enable the department to work more effectively in this area.

(2) The Curriculum and Professional Development Branches will be blended so as to provide more field base support for classroom teachers in their efforts to improve their teaching and program development skills . More specifically, these include the improvement and the systematization of the teaching of basic skills and communication in mathematics and the development of teachers skills and competencies in such areas as curriculum development and evaluation.

(3) A Special Needs Working Group was developed to meet the needs of children who have limited or not access to education due to physical, emotional or mental problems. Identification and program development for these children is a high priority in the department. The development of appropriate activities will take place over a period of time and will involve community participation in the planning stages.

(4) A committee on articulation between secondary and post-secondary institutions is in progress and will examine the provision of access to these institutions for more people . Tea chers have more qualifications than ever before . They 've had the same teacher training, curri culum guides, textbooks, etc . and yet they have been exposed to continuing criticism in areas of basic skill development. They have been bombarded with instant answers in the 1950 s and 1960s but were given few supports for implemen tation.

Many of the experimentations introduced in the late '60s have led to considerable variations in teaching and learning. The effectiveness of these programs has not been completely assessed . The department will focus its efforts on the evaluation of these activities with the aim of providing a variety of supports to teachers as they attempt to conduct learning experiences consistent with the needs of their students. This is a critical area and a central role of the department.

1000 April 7, 1975 SUPPLY - EDUCATION (MR. HANUSCHAK cont'

d) Other critical facets of the public school system which require attention this coming year are: The role of the teacher and continuing teacher training. The organization of schools including regulations that cause barriers to the development of teacher and thereby student skills . The provision of guidelines for school community involvement which will take a variety of forms, and we'l l have to address ourselves to the role of the student in his achieve ment of basic skills. Mr.

Chairman, the governme nt' s goals in education have begun to be realized in the programs that I have just listed and in the beginning integration of the department' s Support Services to the field. Mr. Chairman, it gives me great ple asure to present the Estimates of the Department of Education. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resol ution 45 - We'll leave 45(

a) and come back to that at the comple tion. 45 (b)( l) -- passed; (b) (2) -- passed; (c) -- passed. Resolution 46 (a). The Honourable Member for Brandon We st. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, before we get into some questions on the matter of Planning and Resea rch, I wonder is the Minister anticipating on having some support from his staff for these discussions . I would also like to ask the Minister, in view of the change in the order of the estimates from Colleges and Universities to education, it has come to our attention that the annual report of his Department of Colleges and Universities has not yet been filed.

I wonder if the Minister can tell us when he will have his report of Colleges and Universities so that we'll have an opportunity to review that before the debate begins on that department. --( Inter jection)-- MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman, if I may reply to the honourable member, I believ e that all the reports which had to be filed as provided for by any statutory provision have been filed. And I'm not aware of any piece of legislation that called for the filing of a report of the Department of Colle ges and Universities Affairs. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, I'm certain the Minister is quite correct.

I just thought that he would like us to have the report of his department before we were involved in debating his estimates. I would think that this would be a necessary prerequisite to the discussion and the consideration of the money which he expects this House to devote to Colleges and Universi ties that he would place before us with some reasonable advance time an opportunity to review that statement. I wonder if he has the statement prepared and if it will be available shortly . MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman, I'l l do my best to accommodate the honourable member.

I'm having my office check to see just at what stage where the report is, if there is a report being prepared . Because as I have indicated, Mr. Chairman, there is no statutory requirement for the filing of a report. If there is one, if it' s prepared I will gladly table it in the House, of course . MR. McGILL: Well, I assume the Minister would know whether or not he has a report similar to the one that was filed last year on or about April lst. This is the one we would anticipate . Mr .

Chairman, before we get into a detailed discussion of Planning and Research 1I wonder if the Minister could now provide us with a breakdown of the amount of one million seven between the various programs that are administered in this branch of his department. I refer of course to the Rural Education Alternatives Program, the Head start Program, School Nutrition Program, in fact all of the divisions of the Planning and Research Department, could we have the amounts of money in detail.

MR, HANUSCHAK: Yes, the amounts that have been appropriated to the various programs that the honourable member made reference to, this comes out of 2 (

b) Other Expenditures. I believ e that' s the one that the Honourable Member for Brandon West is concerned about . The Rural Education Alternatives program, $275, OOO; Headstart, $90. 5 thousand; Administration Services, 14 . 8; School Milk Program, 265. 6 thousand; Community Volunteer, 17. 7. And then the Planning, Development and Research component within these programs is 54, OOO, this is applied to all the programs that I'm dealing with. And 125, OOO for the evaluation of the programs: Urban Education 26, OOO; Community School Nutrition, that' s the

April 7, 1975 1001 SUPPLY - EDUCATION (MR. HANUSCHAK cont'd) .•... Winnipeg program, 20 0, OOO; Schools for Urban Neighbor hoods, $50, OOO. --(Interjection)-- To the last three ? Urban Education, 26, OOO; Co mmunity School Nutrition, 200 , OOO; and Schools for Urban Nei ghborhoods, $50, OOO. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 46 (a). The Honourable Member for Brandon Wes t. MR . McGILL: Mr. Ch airman, I would like to ask the Minister now, does the amount of this appropriation cover all of the expense of the operation of this department.

I'm wondering if there are people working in the department whose salaries are chargeable to the expenses of other departments of government ; and if so, how many people are in that category being seconded to Planning and Research and being perhaps on staff or on the role of another department: Co uld we have that figure in terms of numbers of people and the amount of money . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. MR. HANUSCHAK: I don' t believe that there are any that are seconded from other departments to Planning and Research who may be on the payroll elsewh ere.

But I'll attempt to get that information for the honourable member and hopefully later during the debate of my estimates, I'll be able to provide a more precise reply . MR . McGILL: Then, Mr . Chairman, I understand that the Minister says there are so far as he knows no personnel in Planning and Rese arch that are transfers from other depart ments and whose wages or salaries might be in some other estimates, is that ... so. Now does the work of Planning and Research apply entirely to the Department of Education or does it extend beyond the Department of Education ? MR . HANUSCHAK: Mr .

Chairman, it extends beyond Education. It also applies to Colleg es and Universities. MR. McGILL: Well then, Mr. Ch airman, is there any portion of this cost of this department that is allocated to Co lleges and Universities inasmuch as it is providing certain services in that department? I would like the Minister to comment on that and also indicate what particular programs that come under Colleges and Universities are supervised or designed by Planning and Research, and again whether or not any charges are made to Colleges and Universities for those services. MR.

HANUSCHAK: There are a number of programs which Planning and Research conducts under the aegis of Co lleges and Universities but they are charged to it - and when we come to Colleges and Universities we will be dealing with an item related to planning and research projects that come under Colleges and Universities. But these are the programs that come under the jurisdiction of the Department of Education and not Co lleges and Universities, and the costs associated with them. MR.

McGILL: Well, then I assume that there is more money involved in the operation of planning and research than appears in the Estimates of the Department of Education. I was unable to trace them through the Estimates of the Department of Co lleges and Universities, but perhaps the Minister can now tell us exactly how much is involved in those areas so that we will have some knowledge while we're dealing with Planning and Research, what the total costs of this department is to government. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr.

Ch airman, if the honourable member wants that information - I'm not sure whether it really would assist him in the consideration of the estimates of this department. May I try again. There is a Planning and Research Branch. Some of the programs that it is associated with fall under the jurisdiction of the Department of Education, others under the Department of Colleges and Universities Affairs. Today we're dealing only with those that come under Education and not Colleges and Universities Affairs .

Now when we come to Co lleges and Universities Affairs, which is a department immediately following Education, I'll be able to give the honourable member the complete breakdown of the involvement of Planning and Research in the programs under the jurisdiction of Co mmunity Colleges . If the honourable member would look in his Estimates Book, under Co lleges - and I hate doing this because we're going into anot her department - but there is a special program

section which the honourable member would find at the bottom of the Colleges and Universities Estimates, which relates to the programs that Planning and Research operates for Co lleges and Universities. MR. McGILL: Well, Mr. Ch airman, I was looking for a line on the Colleges and Universi ties Estimates that would directly relate to Planning and Research, but the Minister says that

100 2 April 7, 1975 SUPPLY - EDUCATION (MR. McGILL cont'd) •••.• there is a line, Pm not sure that I understand which one it is here, but it's near the end of the - is it Special Projects? MR. HANUSCHAK: It's under Special Projects. MR. McGILL: Special Projects. So it's 3 million one, roughly. Is that the line? MR. HANUSCHAK: Yes, Mr. Chairman. MR . McGILL: Well then, Mr. Chairman, really what I am trying to develop here is that a great deal more of the costs of the total area of operation of Planning and Research is involved perhaps with Colleges and Universities than it is with the Department of Education.

I wanted to find out from the Minister now if he can give me the information, how many programs the Department of Planning and Research has developed over the past year in education, how many new programs have been initiated in that area and just what the nature of these programs would be. MR. HANUSCHAK; I would like to apologize, Mr . Chairman, for taking the moment to sort these out, because I believe that the honourable member was asking for programs developed during the past fiscal year, not all programs that ... MR.

McGILL: I have the list of the ongoing programs, but I wondered what programs had been produced in the last 12 months through the Planning and Research Department, whether or not they have been actually put into operation or not, just how many programs you have been actively involved in during the past 12 months. MR. HANUSCHAK: Oh, well, Pm still not quite clear what the Honourable member is asking, because asking me what programs Planning and Research has been involved in during the past 12 months would also include programs which may have been brought on track the previous year.

I presume then that he wants all the programs in which Planning and Research has been involved in during the last 12 months . Okay. The programs which I mentioned just a short while ago are the programs that Planning Research has been involved in: REAP, Headstart, School Milk Program, Community Volunteers, Evaluation, Urban Education, Community School Nutrition, Schools for Urban Neighborhoods. Those are the programs that they've been involved in. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, we seem to be reaching a difficult area here . I know the programs that have been already put into effect.

Pm wondering what your Planning and Research Department has been doing in the way of new programs that presumably they are testing, evaluating and projecting in respect to possible implementation in the next few months. MR.

HANUSCHAK: There are a couple of programs that are presently being designed: one is for a study of Canadian content in our language arts program; another, attempting to devise a model or a system for external evaluation of school divisions; and a third, a model for community assessment of local neighborhood schools; and also a plan for joint planning with school divisions, planning of their program on a co-operative basis with the Department of Education and the school divisions, multi-cultural materials for the provision and preparation of multi-cultural materials, as well as in the programs related to the over-all business management of schools.

An other program that the Planning and Research Branch of my department is presently studying is the development of a community school program in low rental housing areas, low rental housing developments; and so forth. Those are just some that my staff is presently researching and studying and evaluating but which are not on track.

.. .. April 7, 197 5 1003 SU PPLY - EDUCAT ION MR . McGILL: I thank the Minister for the information that he has given . The second one that he mentioned was a model for the external evaluation of school divisions . Could he enlarge a little bit on that ? Is that a plan somehow to provide for some standard evaluation of the quality of the school division 's production, some plan perhaps to substitute for what we used to call departmental examinations ? Is this what this second project really is involved in, or is it some other kind of school division evaluation ?

Is this an evaluation of students in rela tion to the quality and standards across the province, or am I on the wrong track ? MR . HANUSCHAK: Well , if one wishes to think of it as a substitute for departmental examinations , no . Actually , in the devel opment of an external evaluation plan, not only is Planning and Research involved in devising this plan, but also it's being done with the co operation of the trustees, the superintendents and the Teachers Society . The three groups are working on this.

Firstly, the goals of each school division have to be identified because if you don't know what the goals are then how can you evaluate ? And after having defined the goals - and the goals may vary . The goals may vary from Pelley Trail School Division to Rolling River . They may not have identically the same goals . --(lnterjectio n)-- No, they may vary in size too.

But what may be a slightly smaller goal in one particular area , in one interest area , one school division may be larger and another vice versa and then to devise a system , a method for exter nal and internal teams to review the achievement of the students in the light of the goals for ihe education program that the school division may have for itself. MR 0 McGILL: Mr . Chairman, I understand, I think what the Minister said, that this is not something that would do the job that used to be done by departmental examinations .

This is not, then , a program that would result in some way of comparing the quality of the graduates of a high school in one division with the quality or standings of the graduates in another division. I understand that the only assessments that are done now are done within individual schools, so it's, as the Minister probably would agree, very difficult to compare the marking techniques or the evaluation techniques of one teacher in one school with those of a teacher in another school .

And I was hoping that the Minister was going to tell us that he was - or his Planning and Research Department was busy on a system that would evaluate this, or provide some quality control , and would not be subject to those defects that he has so often mentioned as be ing part of the departmental exam system . I wonder if the Minister could comment in some greater detail on that and tell me if my assumption is correct, that we 're not in an area that would provide us with some standard of evaluation that would be common to the whole school division system across the country . MR . HANUSCHAK: Well, Mr .

Chairman, you know, I must return again to the comment that I made just a few moments ago about the need for a school division to define and articulate its goals , because I think that we would find that in all school divisions in the Province of Manitoba today that the goals of the education program extend far beyond the development of the basic skills and the three R 's, as it were; that an education program should include much more than that.

Now in the area of the three R's, as I had indicated in my opening statement, there are standardized tests that are used, which school divisions use, which enable the school authori ties to make a comparative assessment or analysis of the performance of their students with whomever else. they may wish to compare them with, within the province or interprovincially on a national basis .

But, as I' ve said, the education program goes much beyond that, and inso far as examinations are concerned, or departmental examinations, or returning to some form of them , they've been rejected by the trustees; they've been rejected by the teachers. A stand ardized departmental examination is a thing of the past in most provinces of Ca nada today because they don't serve the purpose that we want our education program to serve . Therefore , the alternative is to develop some meaningful evaluation system on a divisional basis . MR . McGILL: Mr.

Chairman, I understood the Minister to say that the teachers were not in favour of a system of evaluation that would compare divisions across Manitoba . Is it not true that the Manitoba Association of School Trustees and the Manitoba Teachers Society both had some resolu tions contained in their recent policy considerations that asked for some consideration by the Minister and by his department in producing something to take the place of ? If they didn't like departmental examinations, let's have something else that will be a way of controlling or at least comparing the output of various schools in our province.

1004 April 7, 1975 SUP PLY - EDUCAT ION (MR . McGILL cont'

d) So this is inconsistent, it seems to me, with what the Minister just said, that the teachers and the other people, the professionals in the school system , are not interested in this kind of thing. My impression is that there is a very real interest in this revising of what ever kind of method you use , of somehow coming up with a system initiated by the Department of Education whose responsibility it is, I' m sure, to make sure that high schools across our country are roughly similar in the quality of their teaching and in the quality of the students that they graduate.

I don't think you 're going to find any way of comparing it by simply com paring the marks as provided by the individual teachers , because I think everyone will agree that teachers don't mark on the same basis and they 're inclined to introduce false values in these marks, at least they 're incomparable in terms of those remarks . Is that a proper understanding on my part, or am I comple tely misinformed ? MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr.

Chairman , I'm sorry if I left the honourable member with the impression that I felt that there was no desire or interest on the part of teachers or trustees to do anything that ought to be done in the whole area of evaluation . I didn't say that . What I said that they rejected was the old system of departmental examinations. But the honourable member is absolutely correct that, in the same breath, they also said that - well, they said a number of things: 1. Expressed their concern and desire to see some evaluation system designed; and 2.

In the same brea th they also said, at the same time we want to retain the freedom and independence and autonomy that school divisions enjoy in planning their education program , that the teachers enjoy in the classroom . So it becomes impossible to return to the traditional essentially-set departmental examinations because of the variations in education programs. But the need for the development of an evaluation instrument nevertheless is still there, and this is being worked on . Now the honourable member may wonder, well, what is happening in the meantime ?

What assurance do we have that there 's teaching and learning going on in the schools while some meaningful and acceptable evaluation instrument is in the process of being devised ?

Well , I would like to remind the honourable member that we still have our staff of field officers, which are the representatives of the Department of Education, who do visit the school divisions in the Province of Manitoba, and in a varied capacity it is their responsibility to report back to me, to government, on the state of affairs in our school system today, and also to act in an advisory and a consultative capacity to the school superintendents, principals and teachers .

You know, if they should find that some particular school division is having a problem in some area of instruction or whatever , they are there to assist , either they 're there to assist persona lly or if it' s a matter that requires some expertise which they themselves do not have but which is found in other branches within the department, then that other branch is called upon to assist that particular school division or a school within it. MR . McGIL L: Thank you , Mr . Chairman .

Well , the Minister now has given me some assurance that Research and Planning is busy on this problem and recognizes the need for some kind of system that will compare graduates in the high school system as to their com petence. I wonder now if we might dwell a little bit on the credit system , or the option system that we discussed last year ; I presume this program is one that was initiated by and intro duced by your Planning and Research Division . Does that develop from that area ? MR . HANUSCHAK: No , Mr. Chairman .

Perhaps if we want to debate the credit system , I would suggest under Curriculum Development we 'll have a be tter opportunity to deal with the credit system . MR. McGILL: Fine . Then let me leave the debate on that question for the proper reso lution . Let me then just simply ask: in your research into the matter of establishing some system of evaluation , have you considered the problems that will arise with the option system , with student-initiated courses ? And how do you intend to fit this into your system of evaluation that you 're now engaged in developing for the high school system ? MR .

HANUSCHAK: Well , firstly, Mr . Chairman, I want to indicate to the committee that the number of schools presently involved in the school-initiated courses is relatively small , and we are proceeding with caution, and keeping a close eye on the development of this program , also a small number of student-initiated course s. There are a number of checks and balances that are applied as such a course is in the '� .. ,.

r- ... • April 7, 19 75 SUPPLY - EDUCA TION (MR . HANUSCHAK cont'd) .•... process of development . It has to be approved by my department . It's the Curriculum Branch that examines the course content of the school initiated programs, and it would want to satisfy itself that - well, on a number of points: 1005 1.

That it is of a sufficient challenge to the student being mindful of his particular grade level ; that it's, you know, of some relevance and meaning and value to the student; and also being of sufficient challenge that it is neither le ss than, nor much more than what the student could pos sibly be expected to cope with, because we found this happen on a number of occa sions, particu larly in the student-initiated projects, where the student may have undertaken to bite a bit more than he could chew , as it were; that on the surface a particular project may have appeared to him to be quite a rea sonable one , one that he could hope to cope with quite satisfactorily, but then upon closer analysis and scrutiny it may have bee n found that what he had undertaken is just a bit too difficult and then it had to have bee n tailored down somewhat .

But I must agree with the honourable member that he is correct ; that insofar as school and student-initiated courses and credits, that this will present a problem in developing some evaluation model . Of course the honourable member is absolutely correct. Now , just a couple of further comments on the student-initiated credits. At the present time - well, we 're now in the first year of this program , and there are about 150 students in the total province who have undertaken student-initiated credits, and this is of course on a voluntary basis .

It's only those students who choose to do so , and there's a limit - there's a limit of three - as to the number of credits that they may acquire in this fashion , leaving 17 which must be made up, or at least 17, out of the regular high school program . And this, too, is being developed in very close consultation with the trustees and the teacher s and the super intendents .

At the present time we 're in the process of organizing and holding workshops in various parts of the province for teachers and principals to assist them in preparing themselves for this new venture , to assist the teachers to assist the students in the preparation of student initiated credits; to assist the principals in the organization of their school program to make it possible for the offering of school or student-initiated programs and so forth. So there is very close liaison in the development of this program at this time .

But , to return to the main point that the honourable member made, he is absolutely cor rect that insofar as the development of an evaluation model is concerned , this will present a challenge to us and it 1 s a matter we 'll have to cope with. MR . McGILL: Mr . Chairman, of the 400 and some people involved with the Department of Education - I think the figure is around 400 in that area - how many are in the Department of Planning and Research? Could you give me that figure? MR " HANUSCHAK : There are 30 , Mr . Chairman .

MR 0 McGILL: And that includes the per sonnel who were associated with the function of this department that relates to colleges and universities as well? MR " HANUSCHAK : No , Mr . Chairman , just Education. MR . McGILL: Well it intrudes on another area, while we' re considering staffing could we have that figure as well? On colleges and universities? MR . HA NU SCHAK: I' ll try to obtain that . MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition . MR " SPIVAK: Mr . Chairman , I wonder in the explanation given MR . HANUSCHAK : . . . in response to the. Honourable Member for Brandon .

The number of staff in Planning and Resea rch that's as sociated with colleges and universities is approximately 15 . I could get the honourable member a more precise figure at a later time . MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition . MR . SPIVAK : Mr . Chairman , just in connection with that . When he indicated 30 within Planning and Research, that would include the re searchers plus secretarial staff? That's comple te , is that correct? MR . HANUSCHAK : Yes , Mr . Chairman . MR . SPIVAK : I wonder if the Minister would give me some understanding in terms of the breakdown of the programs.

He talked of the REAP Program , Headstart Program , and the various amounts of money . In dealing with the amounts that have been allocated to or referred to, $2 75 , OOO for one program , $265 , OOO for the School Milk Program , do those costs include salaries and wages? Are those programs complete in their distribution and do not include any costs relating to salaries and wages or consultants?

1006 April 7, 19 75 SUPPLY - EDUCA TION MR . HANUSCHAK: Yes , Mr. Chairman, they do include those costs, but I am advised that there are some exceptions . MR o SPIVAK: Well in other words, in order to understand fully the salaries and wages of the Planning and Rese arch Branch, one would have to examine salaries, which is indicated and shown, plus other expenditures which would have programs in which there would also be salaries and wages as well . MR o HANUSCHAK: Yes . Yes, Mr . Chairman.

MR • SPIVAK: I wonder if the Minister - and he may not be in a position to do this immediately but pos sibly through the dinner hour - would be in a position to indicate, for the program s that have be en announced as coming under Planning and Research, Other Expenditures, to separate and indicate for each program the amount that is related to salaries and other wages, and further - and again this may not be something that would be easily available but if within the next five minutes or ten minutes - would it be possible to have a breakdown of any contractual relationships of the department with respect to planning and rese arch end of the department , with respect to any of the program s that we' ve mentioned , for any people who may have bee n hired as consultants?

And if we could have the details in connection with that . And I wonder ... MR . HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman, would the Honourable Leader of the Opposition mind repeating the last request ? I was making a note here and it escaped me. MR . SPIVAK: On the various programs that have bee n listed which make up , in the main, the $1, 332, OOO shown as Other Expenditures under Planning and Research, would he basically indicate the component part and the amounts, and the number, really, who are involved in salaries and other wages with respect to each one of the programs that he's outlined.

And further, would he indicate as well how many people have bee n hired as consultants and identify them with respect to the particular programs. Now I wonder if I can understand correctly, and unfortunately I didn't catch the last two figures properly when the Minister mentioned it, but I wonder if he could indicate in an aggre gate amount by the breaking down of the program , how much is involved in the core area pro grams that he referred to earlier, what amounts are involved in total , and ...

Well , I' d like to first of all understand the total amount first, with respect that he gave some figures, but I' d like to be in a position to know what those figures are before I ask my next question . MR . HANUSCHAK: The honourable member wishes the amounts, the appropriations for the grants for the programs in the core area . MR . SPIVAK: No , no . Let me make it clear .

In dealing with Planning and Research there were core area programs that were mentioned - I believe they were listed at the end - and I would like to know the amounts for them in the aggregate of the Planning and Research Programs, dealing with the core area . MR . HANUSCHAK: Perhaps rather than attempt to answer it now, I would do better, Mr . Chairman, if I would answer it after the dinner hour , or if the honourable member has some further comments . MR . SPIVAK: Yes . I think there's a comment to be made here now ... MR . HANUSCHAK: ... just to assist us .

I' m being asked by my staff again, what does the honourable leader mean by core program ? ... MR. SPIVAK: The Honourable Minister referred to core programs and in his explana tion I think it - and Hansard will show when he dealt with the details of the breakdown, he also mentioned this core programs . MR . HANUSCHAK: I was referring to the programs within the core city area of Winnipeg . In that case , then we 'll refer . . . MR0 SPIVAK: I' m only talking with respect to Planning and Research, I' m not talking in terms of total programs . -< MR .

HANUSCHAK: No but those are the programs I was talking about, those ... MR . SPIVAK: All right , if that's the total of the programs that you're talking about, then I guess with the exception of the last amount which I do not have , then we 're talking - probably the three last programs that you listed were the three programs. There was one for $26 , OOO which was Urban Education. I believe you had another one for $200 , OOO . Is that correct ? MR . HANUSCHAK: That 's right .

April 7, 19 75 SUPPLY - EDUCA TION MR . SPIVAK: And I forget the last one that was listed because unfortunately I didn't Well I' m assuming you 'll get that information. 1007 I'd just like to make one comment . It 's very difficult to examine these Estimates and to make a comparison with previous year s, which is part of the proce ss that one has to go through to be able to evaluate properly the costs expenditures and to evaluate program s.

And the diffi culty I have , and I make this comment before we conclude because I think it would be impor tant in evaluating the other programs to go one step further in wages and salaries that I men tioned with respect to each program , because other expenditures are also included in the variety of programs, and the difficulty is to make a judgment in comparison to , as an example, what Planning and Research spent in the year just completed of 1973- 74 for which we have a public account . And it would seem to me that I ...

Again there is a problem involved and the supper hour may give the opportunity to his staff, but I think it would be of value for the members of the Committee to have , with respect to each program , the wages and salary and other expendi tures listed . I don't mean in detail or br eakdown, but the proportion, so that there is a basis to be able to determine whatever other amounts are left other than administrative expenses in relation to any of the programs that we are dealing with . I wonder if that can be undertaken . MR . HANUSCHAK: Yes, Mr .

Chairman , I can undertake to attempt to obtain that during the dinner hour . If this would assist the honourable member I can give him - give the appro priation program by program for those that I' ve mentioned for the fiscal year just ended, which I have this information before me. MR . SPIVAK: Mr . Chairman, I think that would be helpful as well . I think comparisons are important in relation to this, and this is all we 're trying to do . May I ask one other comment ? With respect to Planning and Rese arch , does it fulfill any function under this particular heading with respect to the Committee of HESP?

Does it have any function to perform or any work that's undertaken for this sub-committee of Cabinet that would be listed under Planning and Research ? MR . HANUSCHAK: Well, Mr . Chairman, because HESP Committee , being what it is by its very nature, dealing with Health, Education and Social Planning programs, being such it involves staffs from Education, Colleges and Universit ies, and the Department of Health and Social Deve lopment . So naturally, when HESP sub-committee of Cabinet is dealing with an education program , then of course the Planning and Research staff of my Department would be involved . Yes.

Now, as I promised the honourable member in the minutes remaining, if I can, just to give him these figures by way of comparison - and these are the figures for the fiscal year ended last week on March 3lst. The Rural Education Alternatives Program appropriation was $25 0,0 00 . Headstart $72 ,3 00. School Milk Program $21 2, 000 . Co mmunity volunteers $1 4, 200 . Evaluation 12 5. Urban Education $1 5, 000 . And then , as I had indicated earlier , the Co mmunity School Nutrition Program and the Schools for Urban Neighbourhood s, those are two programs which we 're bringing on track now . MR . CHAIRMAN: Order .

According to House Rule 19 (2) , I' m interrupting the proce dures of the Com mittee for Private Member s' Hour. I shall return to the Chair at 8 :00 p. m. this evening. IN SE SSION - PRIVA TE MEMBERS' HOUR - RESOLUTION 3 MR. SPEAKER: Order ple ase . 4:30 p.m. Monday, Private Membe rs' Hour. We are on Resolution 3 of the Honourable Member for Riel , and it's open . The Honourable Member for St . James . MR . MINA KER: Thank you, Mr . Speaker .

I would like to speak in support of this reso lution and I do so because, in my opinion, while we are facing an energy shortage at the pre sent time and an apparent worse condition in the future, we are not showing any initiative - at least the governments are not showing any initiative - to encourage the people of today to try and conserve this energy , and why I make this statement, in that if the governmen ts, both provincial and federal, were sincere in their efforts to try and conserve the non-renewable resources and the renewable re sources, then they would not tax insulation in homes or they would not tax heat recovery equipment, which they pre sently do .

And really, Mr . Speaker , what we are doing by taking this approach, the government is doing, is trying to gain some revenue today and in turn will be creating a burden on our citizens of tomorrow. And why I

1008 April 7, 1975 RESOLU TION 3 (MR . MINAKER cont'd) ..... say this is that it's a lmown fact that by increasing the thick ness of insulation in homes and in buildings and, as my honourable colle ague from Riel indi cated in the last part of the debate on this resolution , by increa sing the numbers of plates of glass in large windows, you can cut down the energy losses in residences, and also through the use of devices now that recover energy that's be ing exhausted from buildings , that what we are creating is a burden that will be on our future generations .

And why I say this is, if you look at the annual energy report , the energy in Manitoba supply and demand, you 'll find that the majority of our energy that's being consumed at the pre sent time is supplied by oil and gas and coal, which we lmow is rapidly running out . In fact, I believe some 84 percent of the energy we consume at the present time in Manitoba is provided by coal and oil and gas, and we lmow that it's not an endless supply . And the remaining energy , some 16 percent, is supplied by electricity .

Now what will happen , as I see it, in the coming years , is that the major portion of our supply of energy will be electricity and nuclear . And what will happen , if you also look in that same report , the major consumption of energy in Manitoba is residential and commerc ial , and two-thirds of that, two-thirds of that energy for commercial and residential energy , is used for heating space . Now what will happen , Mr .

Speaker , is that as we go along utilizing energy to day, the non-renewable re sources, because they 're available and at the present time are the cheapest, and wasting them - and I say "wast ing them" because in many cases the standards of the building code today could be improved but they haven 't been, so it's an economical item when you're building a home that, well , you go with the standards of today because you 're not encouraged to change really, not at this present minute you 're not encouraged to change , through financial or tax incentives, so as a re sult what will happen is, in a few years down the road all of a sudden there will be conver sions to electric heating.

And electric heating's a little different , Mr . Speaker , than petroleum or gas heating . When we heat our buildings now with natural gas, we might not be aware of it as individual s, but the Greater Winnipeg Gas is on what they call an interruptible supply . Because of the physical size of the Trans Canada Pipeline, when peak demand on the energy for natural gas occurs in the wintertime , what they actually do is cut off part of that supply to Winnipeg. The Trans Ca nada Pipeline cuts off part of that natural gas to Winnipeg, and Greater Winnipeg Gas supplements that by stand-by pro pane units.

And if you've ever gone down Wolseley Avenue , you've seen the big tanks that they have there standing in reserve for when that intermittent supply occurs. Now what will happen , Mr . Speaker , is when we transfer over , start transferring over to electric energy - because that's a prese nt source of energy that we are able to control and to provide in Manitoba; we haven't perfected the nuclear part of the supplying of energy as yet, the technical ability is not neces sarily there or the money isn't there - so it will be natural for us to go to electric heat .

And what will happen is that we will place a burden on our electrical distribution lines and on our supply of energy that probably our Hydro will not be able to meet . And they won't be able to interrupt it like the Gas Com pany does at the present time, because what other source of energy do we have to take the place of electricity? Because at that time, we won't have any of the non-renewable resources or limited amounts of them available .

And what I can see happening at some time in the future, that there will be such demands placed on the Hydro system that they will have what they call brownouts or blackouts, that they will have to cut back on the energy , that they will have no alternative source of energy for the people . And what I suggest, Mr .

Speaker , that economically to me it makes sense that we provide some kind of incentive , not only to the residential owner but also the commercial owner when it comes to heating his facilities, to encourage him to put in additional capital cost at this time, and I think this can be done by removing the federal and provincial taxes on those particular items . And I think it's evident , whether it was not to the Honourable Member from St. Matthews, that the resolution applies to material used in buildings and in he ating systems, it doesn't apply to blankets or to suits.

I gue ss if you were a lawyer you could interpret the way it's worded that suits and blankets are utilized in buildings so for that reason they should be tax exempt . Mr . Speaker, another approach could be taken that maybe instead of 2- 1/ 2 inch-thick insulation there, if you put in 4 inches it was sales exempt but 2- 1/ 2 wasn' t. But I don't think you could govern that type of thing. I would think it would be more practical in the amount of dollars that we 're probably talking about just to remove the sales tax on these items and to

.. April 7 , 19 75 1009 RESOLUTION 3 (MR . MINAKER cont'd) ..... encourage the Federal Government to remove these . And it would be our impression that the Federal Government is taking this approach, because the Minister has indicated, and I think the Honourable Member from St. Matthews indicated it in hi s speech , that they 're looking at the removal of tax on insulation and on heat -conserving devices. Mr. Speaker, even the Honourable Member from St.

Matthews has somehow turned the revenue around into an expenditure , because I read in his speech that he gave back on March 18 th during this resolution that - and I' m going to be interested to see whether he will rise up and support this resol ution because what the resolution asks is that the taxpayer should pay to help make business more efficient . Now, for the life of me, I can't interpret how a reduction in revenue is asking a taxpayer to pay for something .

He somehow interpreted that if you don't get as much revenue from something, that the taxpayer is now having an expenditure towards that particular development , and I would suggest that it would be the opposite effect because what in fact will happen when we go into that transition period of more electrical requirements to heat our homes and our residences, that the capital costs for the distribution, the increased transformers that are going to be needed - and they 're not just going to be needed in sub stations, they 're going to be needed on every street , the distribution lines are going to be required on every street - that the average taxpayer will have to pay for this.

They 'll have to pay for that much more , I would think, than by not having some revenue at this time from sales tax on insulation and these other devices that are now available and could be utilized. The important factor, Mr . Speaker, is the fact that the sooner that this type of insulation and these heat- conse rving materials are put into our houses, not only the existing houses but the new homes that are being built and the new buildings, that we will conserve the energy from that day, we 'll conserve the petroleum products that are being consumed .

We'll also cut down on the peak load for our hydro demands in the winter and thus we will have a bit of breathing space on our hydro growth and development in this province. And, Mr . Speaker, if we end up that our major source of energ y is electricity in this province - and it's leading to that direction - that we will be looking at nuclear plants, we were advised by the First Minister, and I would think then we're talking about billions and billions of dollar s.

And for this reason , I would think any energy that can be conserved now and during that future time is very impor tant to us, because all we 're doing at the present time is transferring off this problem on to our future generation , and I would think that this government , if it is a proper government, would have the initiative to look into this problem , give the people of Manitoba the incentive that they need at the present time, and create that incentive by reducing the tax and taking it off.

I don't think we 're talking about that many dollars when you look at it on an annual basis, and in turn there will be a saving to both the resident and the commercial owner . And I might remind the honourable members on the other side that the governm ent probably is the biggest landlord in Manitoba when it comes to buildings, and I believe that they pay federal and pro vincial tax on any insulating material that goes into new buildings, or into old buildings if they 're trying to improve the heat loss on those particular facilities .

So when we talk about commercial buildings we 're not just talking about private enterprise , we 're also talking about government-owned facilities, and I would think that the Honourable Minister of Public Works is well aware of the problems they have of heating their buildings at the present time, and I understand is looking into other sources of energy , such as solar heat . And when it comes down to it, Mr . Speaker , we really only have about five or six sources of energy for heat in this province. We've got what ? Gas, oil , coal, solar and we have recycled wastes , I guess, that could be burned .

And we have one other one too . We have the human body that gives off heat . So that all of these sources of energ y can be utilized, and they can be utilized to the most efficient point by having that space they 're heating insulated to a very efficient level . And I would sugge st- -(Interjection)-- At the end , if the Minister wouldn 't mind, I would gladly answer at the end . So, Mr.

Speaker, if the government is sincere in its announcements that we see from time to time of trying to get the people to conserve energy , if the Industry of Trade and Commerc e's office, you know , what they support, the government supports this new office on energy conserv ation, if they're for real, let 's show it by supporting this re solution . It may result in a small lo ss in revenue , in sales tax, but it will be a very he althy benefit to our future generation and to the operation of this province at some future date, allowing us to have enough

1010 April 7 , 1975 RESOLU TION 3 (MR . MINAKER cont'd) . • . • . energy to heat our homes and our buildings rather than have a situation where there will be such demands on the electrical hydro system that we have at that time, that they will not be able to be met . Thank you . MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel will be closing debate . MR . DONA LD W. CRAIK (Riel) : Mr. Speaker , if there's no one who wishes to speak, I will be closing the debate. And with a few words, I have to express some disappointment in the way the resol ution has been received by the governm ent .

It seems pretty clear that they do not intend to support it.

And I think particularly in view of the fact that they have recognized, and Ma nitoba Hydro has recognized , a problem with regards to the supply and the increasing rate of demand of electrical energy in the Province of Manitoba and the cut off of gas supplies that we already know exist in Winnipeg, and the fact that the hom eowner in the next two years will not be able to hook up a new house to natural gas supply in Winnipeg, all of these add up to just another indication of the fact that the energy crunch isn't coming, we 're already in the midst of it .

This re solution, although it won't by any means revolutionize the amount of energy that will be required in the province, it certainly goes a long way towards making the public aware of it, and also of providing them with the incentive and the recognition that the government knows that it's neces sary to supply more adequate insulation in our homes .

And , as the indica tions are, even in the report put out by the Provincial Government, the largest amount of energy consumed in the province that can be controlled through this sort of activity of increasing the building standards, of course is in the private homes and apartment buildings and commer cial buildings of our provi nce, and I don't think that the removal of 5 perc ent sales tax is going .to in any way make any large dint in the amount of money that comes into the Provincial Government , but it could well have a very strong and large influence to encourage people to go to more adequate insulation .

I think, even in the time that's available to us here, we 've gone to the trouble to point out a few of the areas where this could be done , and we haven 't had any recognition from the government that they are even looking at the problem . All we 've had is a rather confusing statement by the governm ent that somehow this resolution would be good for the rich and bad for the poor . Well , Mr . Speaker, the only conclus ion you can draw is that it's only rich people that have homes in this city - I don't know where the rest live - but it wasn't a very strong and convincing argument .

This resolution is aimed at providing every potential hom eowner in the Province of Manitoba, aimed at providing him with some additional incentive to add more insu lation to the walls of his house and perhaps more glass insulation to his windows , and to look at the pos sibility of putting in heat exchange rs that will re capture some of the lost energy from his home . It's difficult to see how the government can stand on that basis and not even con sider the advisability of providing incentives to Manitobans to cut down on their energy con sumption in their homes . QUESTION put, MOTION declared lost . MR .

CRAIK: Ayes and nays, Mr. Speaker . MR . SPEAKER: Ca ll in the membe rs . Order plea se . The resolution before the House is that of the Honourable Member for Riel, Resolu tion No . 3 . A STANDING VOTE was taken, the result being as follows: Mess rs. Bauman Bilton Brown Craik Enns Ferguson Henderson G. Johnston F. Johnston Jorgenson YEAS McGill McGregor McKellar McKenzie Minaker Moug Patrick Sherman Spivak ..

April 7, 197 5 Mess rs. Adam Barrow Bostrom Boyce Burtniak Cherniack Derewianchuk Desjardins Dillen Doern Evans Gottfried Hanuschak Jenkins MR. CL ERK: Yeas 19; Nays 28. MOTION lost . RESOLUTION 3 NAYS RESOLUTION 14 Johann son McBryde Malinowski Mille r Osland Paulley Pawley Petursson Schreyer Shafran sky Turnbull Uruski Us kiw Walding MR o SPEAKER: Resolution 14 . The Honourable Member for Assiniboia . MR . PATRICK: Mr . Speaker, I beg to move, 1011

WHEREAS the cost of living has risen significantly in Manitoba in the past year and those of our citizens who are over 65 and living on fixed income have no way of increasing their in come to mee t the rising costs; THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that the Government consider the advisability of amend ing the present Income Supplement Program for Senior Citizens 65 years and over; WHEREBY their income would be guaranteed of $300 per month per person or 500 per month per couple after taking into account their income from federal assistance, plans and other sources; AND BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that this House request the Federal Government to share the cost of this supplement program . MR . SPEAKER: The honourable member mention a seconder . MR. PATRICK: Portage la Prairie . MR 0 SPEAKER: Thank you .

Moved by the Honourable Member for As siniboia seconded by the Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie, the resolution as read . The Honourable Member for Assiniboia . MR . PATRICK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . The reso lution is quite self-e xplanatory, and I' ve already received agreement from my side to the right. I hope I do not have to dwell too long or to explain this resol ution . Mr.

Speaker, I'm sure that most members are aware that at the present time with the increased cost in food, increased cost in rent , increases in hydro, we had a considerable amount increased cost to the se people, and OAP increase last year as well as the provincial government 's supplement certainly didn't come up to any way near what the increases should be, or what has taken place in the cost of living. The Economic Council of Canada , Mr . Speaker , has already indicated that there should be at least a minimum of 300 per person to senior citizens and 500 per couple .

As well I have a report which was commis sioned by the Provincial Government in Saskatchewan which has completed, and it's almost a year old, and at that time that report also ha s indicated and made a recommendation , it's on Page 17 , that indicated that there should be $350 for individuals , or $250 for each person and $500 per couple as well . This was a detailed report that was done by the Government of Saskatchewan and they have indicated that there should be. As well, Mr.

Speaker , almost every province has already indicated and recognized the fact that - indicated in their throne speeches across the country that they will be increasing the supplements and increasing the supplements quite extensively . So again we have another indication by almost every government that there is a

101 2 April 7, 1975 RESOLUT ION 14 (MR . PATRICK cont'd) ..... requirement and need ne ces sary at the prese nt time to give consideration to these people who certainly have a probl em . The other point that I wish to make Mr . Speaker , is - I' m not denying that this govern ment has done considerable for the people, for the senior citizens, and perhaps one indication and the best thing that they have done is the Tax Cr edit Plan for the ones that are living in their homes and getting tax credit for rental or housing accommodation .

And I know the members in this House can go back six to seven years and perhaps maybe even longer , when I had a pro posal before this House to have a complete $2 , OOO reduction in the assess ment to senior citi zens, and I know this has bee n debated every year, a 2, 000 reduction in assessment--(In ter jection)--no, it has not bee n a recommendation from the New Democratic Party. In fact if honourable members check their journals he's never had it anywhere on record, or in journals, and I know the state of Florida reduces asses sment up to $10, OOO for senior citizens who are in need . Not only two.

My recommendation was two, and at that time I said what it would do is remove the education tax for the senior citizens, and when the Tax Cre dit Plan came into effect all it is doing is removing the education part of their property tax . That 's all it is doing. But unfortunately , Mr . Speaker, it's not having that great effect, because on the other hand we're increasing the property tax so quickly and so fast .

The members know themselves , all they have to do is check their tax notices since the Unicity or since the Unicity Bill came into effect, because I can br ing in my tax notices and I' m sure that they'll agree . I know, Mr. Speaker, that there is no quick solution to inflation because after eight years of inflation in the United States and some five years or a little lesser time in Canada, the tra ditional tools of fiscal and monetary economic policies has not done the job, in fact there's very little re straint on inflation and has very little effect on re straint. So these people cer tainly have a problem .

And perhaps I can quote you another case . This is out of the Winnipeg Free Press of last week, April 2nd, it quotes, and I'd like to quote from a reporter in Edmonton who - Jim Davies - who lived on a pensioner 's basic income for 30 days, and this is what he had to say, and I'd like to quote : He practically suffered a heart attack when overcharged for bacon; was stricken by conscience of spending 53 cents for two rolls of toilet paper; and con sidered the loss of a glove a near tragedy in below zero temperature .

Nights were particularly bad , holed up in many small room s; my only entertainment was a small transistor radio. He found some consolation in the good humour and acceptance of many of the elderly men . And the whole

article is that the largest chunk of his budget was for personal items and food and household expens es . So what his whole story in the Edmonton Journal and what was reprinted in the Winnipeg Free Press was that there are no snacks on basic pension . So there's some indication already here, Mr. Speaker , that we must do something . The most rece nt review of the Economic Council of Ca nada recommends an increase of transfer payments to individuals, which includes the old age pension and guaranteed income supplement payments . More than half of Ca nada's older population can be clas sified as being poor .

On the basis of pre sent and future age statistics one can show that Canadians can well afford as never be fore to boost benefits for elderly because the proportion of depe ndent popu lation as opposed to the working population is declining. Perhaps I may explain that: There will be a rise in the number of old people but the dependent population is going to show a small drop; the work force is growing at the rate of 3 percent per year as opposed to 2 percent in the dependent population . What is happening, Mr .

Speaker , that because of the CPP, Ca nada Pension Plan and pensions from many industries, we will have less people dependent strictly on OAP, CPP and the supplement system . But at the present time there is, there is a problem , and at least the meas ures may be neces sary for a temporary period, but I think that the government will have to come to grips with this problem .

The measures will be neces sary because full pensions, Old Age Pension and Canada Pension Plan together , in 1965 ( ?) , or at the end of 1965( ?) , will amount to $241 per month for a single person, and $361 for a couple in receipt of one CPP, one Ca nada Pension Plan. By 1980 these pensions will have increased to $400 per per son and $550 respectively . So as to the indexing system this requirement, Mr . Speaker, may be on a temporary bas is .

I feel it's important when a per son finds himse lf in a position as its bee n indicated by the studies that we have before us, that we have to do something for these people . I think in order to assess the economic needs of senior citizens it is neces sary to understand their social "'-· .,..

.. April 7, 19 75 1013 RESOLUTION 14 (MR . PATRICK cont 'd) ..... environment between which a person is referred to as a senior citizen and the way he is forced to live . I know that the universal age , retirement age of 65 at the present time, that's the manda tory retirement age , and we have not come to grips, or found any solutions where these people can continue to work, the ones that want to work, and we do retire them at this age . So I think it's our responsibility to attempt to develop alternate labour markets for these people , if we can , but as long as the current attitude, Mr.

Speaker , prevails I think we must continue to regard retirement at 65 is taking people out of their economic productivity, and naturally this increases the dependency on the state. It is this situation in Manitoba, Mr . Speaker , that we must deal with, the challenge of making retirement and status of being a senior citizen 's a period of dignity and satisfaction . I believe the economic considerations are vital to the pro cess of retirement with dignity, and I regard these economic considerations to be a matter of rights for Canadian s in the age spec trum of 60 , 65 and over .

I know that the Minister of Health and Social Development will get up and give me a lec ture on the cost of this, and I have a bit of calculations and have some cost studies . I know that this cannot be brought in immediately . Perhaps we can phase it out in a process to at least the ones that are in greatest need; and secondly, my recommendation and request is that we request the Federal Government to participate in the cost of this program , and through that system perhaps the cost can be reduced considerably .

I know that at the present time we have 102( ?) pensioners in Manitoba, of which 43, OOO receive only the Old Age Pension, which is $1 20, Mr . Speaker . In Manitoba the Provincial Government entered the field of income Supplement for the Elderly in July of 197 4, and I would like to point out that the issue of providing Manitoba Supplements for the Elderly was first raised by - I think it was raised in the election of 1973 - and at that time the government said it could not be done, and would not be prepared to do it.

But then the governm ent changed its policy and it has brought in, which I have no argument with, but really I just ask the governm ent, is the plan working to the best advantage of the senior citizens in this province and can more be done ? In my opinion, more should be done to provide a higher economic floor for senior citizens in this province.

I' m sure that the Minister is aware that the other provinces are moving in that direction and I think it's unfortunate that the Throne Speech did not - I thought it did - but I understand it did not indicate that there 'll be any measure taken in this area because the other provinces are - a few of them already indicated that it will be going as high as the 250 per person and 241, and I' m sure that the Minister is aware of what took place. I know it's perhaps not legi slation and on the Statutes Books as yet in some of the other provin ces, but this has bee n indicated.

In Manitoba the proportion of population of 65 , as I mentioned , is increasing, Mr . Speaker, but the dependent population is not increasing. For instance, in 19 71, 8.1 percent in Canada were people 65, of the total population or over , and in Manitoba it was 9. 7 percent . And in 1973 that has increased in Ca nada to 18. 3 percent, and up to 10 perce nt in Ma

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-2-36
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 2nd hansardpdf 36.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	005d7683878261036e13f831d9f622ac924d6ac0

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