Volume XL Tuesday Province of Newfoundland FORTIETH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Fourth Session VERBATIM REPORT (Hansard) Speaker: Honourable P.]. McNicholas Number 46 31 May _l988

I The House met at 2:00p.m. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): OrdE~r, p1E:1ase! Before. calllng for Statements by Ministers, I promised last week thRt I IAJould look ·:into the po'i.nt of order raised by the hon. membE!r for Fogo, and I haVE! dom1 so. I am not satisfied with the research that has been done so far. None of us ar·e satisfied with it. So I am having that matter explored further today, and I hope to have an answer to that matter tomorrow.

I j IJSt want to take this opportunity to say to the House that I attended a rneet.:i.ng in Ottawa yesterday at the invitation of the Speaker of the House of Commons. · Speaker·s from all across C ~~ n c\ d a a t: i: e n d c:! d a n d <:-J.l s o f e c:l e r· d 1 a11d provincial mE!rnbers, including the han. metnber for· ~3t. Hc:n·be (Mr·. Furey). Also present were rt::1pr't::1SC:!ITtatives of muni.c.Lpdl:i.I:·Les from across Canada. It t.uas the Pa1"1iarnentary Forum on the Status of 0isabled Persons. It was a really worthwhile meeting.

The par·U.cipants v.Jere experts in many fiE!J.ds assoc-iated with the handicapped e-du ca t.ion, business, transportation, govE!rnrrtE!nt and many other· fields, plus handicappE!d people thE:1mselves who were very vocal and knowledgeable in the def'i.ciencies ·that exist. We lTlE!t at 7: 30 in the mor·ning and the mE!E!ting went on a11 day. The message I got was that handicapped pE!OplE! lAJBr'E! at thE!

J.OlAJE!r E!rld of the economic scale because of a lotAJE:1l" leve1 of E1ducat:.ion and th<,' fa u 1 t For· t h 'is t~.Ja s our· s , t h <:;t L tAle are not educating our young handicapped lo their full L2468 May 31, 1988 Vol XL "· .. ~- -----·-- · potential, either because' thE! fa c :L J. :l U . 0 s ar0 not UH:!re or· they are not sufficientJ.y · ac -c€,ssib1.E! - because of dif·flcult:ie:1s Ln gc~!t.t.J.ng into buildings, getting proper transport and getting sufficient help.

We v.JerE! 1E!ft with no doubt that the liv'i.ng expenses of the handicapped WE1re higher br:,cause' of their handicap, that they t.uere likE!' you and me except for thEdr handicap which, 'in some cases, can happen to any of us at any time. ~e heard from many well-informed handicapped people on the panel; for example, one, a lawyer from Toronto completely bl:ind, but he got a J at.u dE!greE! from Harvard and Osgoode Hall although he was blind beforehand, and another, a ChE!i"okec~ Incltan lady ·.in a wheelchair, who is l.:hE~ adrn-inistrator of c\ hosp·i.tal..

We were entertained at thE! arts c c,HJ l r e i: h 1'::1 n i g h t be f o r· E! a t:. a. g i.d a performance and most of the entert.alne1ns .... comedians, stngers, musicians were handicapped aJ.J. profoss ·Lonals t.uho can more than compete with anyone. LastJ.y, we had a really moving address at lunch time yesterday from Rick H a n s e n IAJ h o s p o k c,1 l: o u s a b o u t. h i s journey around the wor1d in a vJ he e 1 c h a i r· . It was a really rewarding meeting. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Statements by Ministers Ml~. MATTHE_WS: Mr·. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: ThE~ 11on.

Uw M:i.n.i.stcH' of CareE!r No. 46 R2468

Development and Advanced Studies. MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Today I am announcing the approval of 311 projects undE!r the Government's Private Sector EruploymE!nt Programme. TheSE! p r· o j I':' c t s , 1"1 r· . S p e a I< E! r , "i. n v o 1 v e a provincial contribution of $1,688,167 employing 516 regular employees and an additional $267,406 employing 207 students. M r· . ~3 pea !< e r , t he l·: o l: a 1 f u n d s allocated to date, under The Private Sector Employment Pt,.ogramme, amount to approximately $4.6 million.

Through th·is funding 1,769 jobs have been c rea tc;!d, 403 of which at"e s tl.1dent positions. 1'1r. Speaker, the responsE! to this programme has been excellE!tlt. My department has received numerous applications both form businesses tAJho participated in the programme last year . as well as new businesses wishing to take

part in this 50 per - cent wage subsidy programme. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hc,~ar I hE!al"! MR. DECKER: Mr . Speaker . Ml~. SPEAKER: The,~ hon. the TTIE!TnbE!r for the St.rai t of Bc;!llo Isle. MR. DECKER: Mr. ~3pc-:~c:ilkE!r I dgr.d.n t.IH! rn:in.i.ster· ts announcing his govc-:~r·nrnc:!l'lt' s anstAJer· to (:.his u.Jr·c-:~cked econotny, thts economy which they have brought to i t s k n E! c-:~ s . T h i s j. s l.: h E~ "i. r· a n s IAJ Cc! r to it. They only have 28,000 moi,.E! jobs to go and then they will have accomplished it. L2469 May 31, 1988 Uol XL MR. SIMMS: What is your answer to it? MR. DECKER: Mr.

Spe!aker, as I understand this programme - MR. BARREfT: You do not understand it at all. MR. DECKER: the money is supposed to be made· available to cornpaniE!S to ~~ m p 1 o y p e o p l E~ o IJE:~ r· a n d a b o v e w h a t: they would normally employ. I look at·. Mount Pear·l. Confect"i.onE!ry, Mt~. Speaker, which has bE!E!l'l giVE!l'l 1'7 people. To me, that SI':H,!ITIS to be a lot of peoplE! for Mount PE!arl Confc~c 17.-.ionery - MR . BARRETT: You do not know what you are doing. MR. DECKER: -so I wonder if thE!Y ar'E! surpJ.us to what they would normally hire. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. DECKER: company out. .in I look at the Gander, which carne up in last week's statement, Weston's Confectionery, who hired 25 people, Mr. Speaker. AN HON. MEMBER: (ll.J. i'H~IAJ p e 0 p J. e . MR. DECKER: Al-l. l'lBIAJ jobs, Ml". ~3per:'.tkE!r 1 wh.ich is not over and above the - SOME HON. MEMBERS: H~~ar· I hear! MR. DECKER: I wish those silly interruptions No. 46 R2469

were not deducted from my time, Mr. Speaker. The Mo-t6r Mort.ior, Mr. Speaker, down in the Minister of Social S~1rvices 1 d"istr·lct (Mr. Tobin), have taken on ten people. SOME HON. MEMBERS: HeRr, hear! MR. DECKER: Now, has that motel increased in size to the extent that they hi~ve t.o take on ten E!Xtra people, Mr. Speaker? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order I pleaSE!! The han. member 1 s time is elapsed. MR. DF.:CKER: Thank you I Mr. Speaker. They cannot take the hoRt, can they? AN l-ION. MF.MBER: And you cannot tc:~!<e the jobs. MR . SIMMS : No r t h e ~H~ a t. . MR. LONG : Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon . the mernbe!r for St:. John 1 s East. MR. LONG: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . We also thank the minister for his running updah1 on Lh(;! progr•(;!SS of the pro j e c t .

I u..Jo u J. d j us t. as k if at somE! point . in the nE!Xt. coupJ.~: ! of w~:!E!ks thE! min:l~i:E!r could carnE! in with some kind of status r e port in terms of the kinds of jobs, some of the questions we have L2470 May 31, 1988 Vol XL addressed in response to the statements, kinds of training e 1 em e n t s , k i n d s of" · s t u d e ·n t - posil:.ions; just br·:lng fortAJi:,rd somE! more information than the Table has pr·ov:ided. f'll though I do appreciate the minister 1 s efforts in g:iving us continuous i n f o r m a t i o n b y t h ~ : ! s e t a b J.

E! s , IAJ e have mc:~ny rnore CJIH!SLions and IAII'! would like it if the minister could give us a more comprehensive upda ·te within thE! next couple of weeks. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. DOYLE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the of Tr·ansportation. MR. DOYLE: M r . S pea I< (;! t' , T a rn p 1 E! a s e d t o announCE! to the hon. Hcli~SE! -todc~Y an addil:ional list o f projects valued at $11.9 miJ.lion dollars to be publicly tendered -· SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hoar, hear! MR . DINN: Whi:it a man, $11.9 million! MR.

DOYLE: by rn y de par l: m<~Hll : o v ~:! r· t h ~ ' ! 1'1 E! x t: few weeks for highway pav":i.ng and improvements. Mr. Speaker, the s e transportation improvement projects will be carried out: during thE! 1988 const.:l"uction season. They u..ri.11 bE! funded entirely by thE! ProvinCE! under my department 1 s r·oad and bridge~ rehabilitation, improvement progr·arnm~~. T h e p r o j e c 1.: s t. o b E! {: C'! n d E! r (~~ cl a r e a s foJ.lotJJs: Baie VE!rtE! - White Bay : Paving 4- ldlornetr·E!!> of Westport r·oad dnd 4 No. 46 R2470

kilometres of Burlington road. Bellevue: Continuation of paving between -long Cove and Thornlea; paving approximately 3 kilometres of Route 204- from Little . Hearts Ease to Southport. Bonavista kjlometre road. North: Upgrading 2 SE!ction of Greenspond Burgeo-Bay 0 1 Espoir: Upgrading of walkways through the Town of McCallum. Burin ·Placentia West: Paving S. 1 kilometres of Route 221-15 from Salmonler to Mortier; paving approximately 3 kilometres of the Salt Pond to Wintorland road and 1 kilometre of local road in Jean d 1 Baie.

Carbonear: Paving approximately 5.3 kilometres of roads in the communities of Lower Island Cove, Gull Island, Northern Bay, Ochre Pit Cove, Western Bay and Kingston. Conception Bay South: Four-laning of Topsail Road from Donovans Overpass towards Paradise. Grand Bank: Resurfacing of approximately .8 kilometres ·of Rou·te 210 betl.veen Grand Bank and For·tune and from end of prE!vjous resurfacing near Fortune towards Point May. llat·bour Grac e:1; Rcsurf.-actng o·F 1.. 6 k~lometres of Bryants Cove road and 2.0 kilometres of Cranes road, Upper Island Cove and miscellaneous resurfacing on Bishops Cove Road.

Humber Ei:l~; l: Upgi"ad.i.ng and pc1uinq of MasSE!Y Dr'i.VE!. L,aPoile: approximatE!ly 8 Resurfacing kilometrE!S of· L24-71 May 31, 1988 Vol XL Route 70 from ·the end of present Blanche Diamond resurfacing near Rose towards Burnt Islands and Cove R"oad. Lewis porte: Complete paving of Norris Arm North Access road approximately 5.5 kilometres. Mt. Scio-BE!lJ. Island: Resur·fad.ng 3.4- kilometres of Davidson Avenue, Ten Commandments Range, No. 2 road and Memorial Drive on Bell IsJ.and. 1\Jas kaup i.: grading l::lo twoe n Falls.

Repi:J.:irs t.o lJJa shouts and FrE!E!dom road and Chur·chill of the Goose llc\Y Placentia: a p pin ox ·.i. md tel. y the Access Ht-lrbour fr--om and paving k.i.lornr:1l:r'E!S o+=- Resurfacing 5 . l ld lomr:1trE!S of road to Southern t:hE! TCH; upgradi .nq approximately 3 Fa :i. r· h i)l v E! n r· o ad . St. George 1 s: Resurfacing approximatE!J.y 4-.3 kilometres of R o u ·t e 4-0 7 i n t he Cod r o y a r r:1 a ; resurfacing approximately 2.0 kilometres of Route 405-11 from the end of prr:1sent resurfac:i.ng near St. Fintan 1 s totJJards Sl:.

David 1 s; resurfacing approxirnateJy 2.0 kilometres of Route 461 through Barachois Brook and Resurfacing 4- . 2 kilometres St. Theresa 1 s and 0. 8 kiJ.ornetres FL~t Bay Roads. Terra Nova: Paving fl .. 7 kiJ.ornEd::r·es of road From Bunyan 1 s Cove towards Musgravetown, paving 9.5 k'.i.lornotrr :.1S o·f rodcl fr·orn l_c;!"l:.hbr·.iclgc:! to Jamestown and 1.4- kilometres of C i:\ n n "i. n g s C o v c~ R o i'H~ ; p i)l v :i. n g 2 . 5 kilometres of road from Traytown to Cu11 1 s Har·bour. Trn:i.nity --Bay dE!

Vr:1rde: Upgr•acUng and paving of approximately 3.8 kilometres of Route 80 from Hant 1 s Harbour toward New Chelsea and No. 4-6 R24-71

••. •~r 'l',.. • .,..ft: ! .-J.~~- ~ ,. J.. .__~ :_:_:_.. ..... -· · •la. ~ -·---~·.! . ._._::. __ . __ .. .Jj~ .:-·. ------ - --~ ---· _-_. _~ _.:._- upgrading three local roads. T r i n i t. y N q_r t h : of road from Trouty. P a v i n g 5 k i 1 orne l:. r e s Bonaventure towards Mr. Spoc:<~I<Gr', 'l:.he above muned pt"oj ect-.s 1neprc-:1sent approximately 30 per cent of my departmont 1 s ptnovincially funded roads programmE:1.

Thi.s, combirHH~ 1.u:i lh my earlier statement to the House, 1.u i 11 r· H s 1~ ll -.i n r:1 x p e n d i. t l~ r e s o r· some $26.25 million which represent approximately 65 per cent of our $40 million roads programme. Mr. Speaker, the process of tendering transportation construction projects as early as possible has worked very well, resulting in most projects being completed within the construction season. This prOCE!dUrE! permits the construction industry lead time to make plans for the upcoming construction season. I would llke _ to remind the hon.

House t h a ·t i-t is mo s -1: d iff i c u 1 t to add r e s s R 11 of o u r· l:: ran s p o r t R U. o n requirements on an immediate bas i s , b ~~ t I 1- e e 1 m 1.1 c h p r o g r e ~> s is being made. Many significant impro,;emE!nl:s hi.'IV<,1 boon mad(:' to the ttnanspor·tation infrastructurE! in practically every region of Newfoundland and Labrador.

The $11.9 million in irnpr·overn€:!nt projects I have announced today combined with my earlier announcr:Hn€Hlt of $14.3 million and the $29.4 million worth of projE!Cts announCE!d under the federal/provincial ERDA agreement will address several of the problem areas in the Province 1 s transportation network. These construction projects will allow us to con-tinue thE! stc,1ady ptnogr(;!SS we have madE! in creating a safer L2472 May 31, 1988 Vol XL and a more transportation Prou i.nce. eFf·lciE:1n-t system hi g I'HJ.Ja y in the Mr. ~3por.1.!<(:1r, nex-t IAJ(:H~k IAJ(:!

IAJ.i.ll bE! announcing some additional pr•oj(:1C'ls t.uhich tAd.ll bo -the;! final amount of the $40 million package. SOME HON. MEMBERS: 11c,1ar, hc~r.lr! MR. GILBERT: Mr. Speaker. MR. GILBERT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The minister, by reading out the statemc-:lnt, once agi:lin confirmed what the Auditor GE!I'IE!ral said in.it.ially, ·that the depi.~rt.rn(Hlt did not have any guidelines or procedures in place for dispensing this $40 rniJ.lion govet"nlTIE!n-1-: spends r:wc-:1ry yec.-1r.

Jus l:: to give you a little examplE!: I thJnk a very qu lei< random count said thE.H'e l.J..H:!rE! 89 kilometres of road in total in Lhl.s out of t.uh:ich 7. 4 !dlornE!tr·es are in Li.beral districts. So there would seem to be something a little bit out of whack with ·the OlJC:1ral.l agreement as far as roads are concerned in this Province. I can assure you thE!rE! <:-:tr'e roads in Liberal districls as much in need of paving as those in qover·nrnE!I'lt: d.ist.ricts, but it just does not seen to be done that t.uay.

I haVE:1 poinb;!d out ft~om tJ.m1?. to time in this House what the siLuation is, and it is a situation I think the people of Newfoundland are aware of. They know they cannot be bought with this SOI"t of bribE:1, lAJ-.ith t·:h·.is sor·t of operation that is going on here. It -.is a dtsgrace to have to stand up and taJ.k about -\:his and say this Lo the people of Newfoundland who are subjected to - No. 4-6 R2472

this form of government. To me it is ridiculous that we have a programme handled this way. We are looking forward to the other $11 million the minister v.Ji 11 no do u b t an no u n c e wi t hi n t h e next few days, and I would imagine tha-t. it tAlill have the same SE!nse of fairness to it that the other two announcements he made had. Mr. Speaker, i1: is ridiculous to think that they would have the face to stand in this H01..1se and say they are treating the people of Newfoundland equally; the tax dollars being collected in Newfoundland are certainly not distributed on a fair and equal basis. MR.

FENWICK: Ml". ~1peaker· . MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Menihek . MR. FENWICK: We would appreciate in future if the Minister of Transportation would remember us when he is handing out Ministerial Statements; we just managed to get a copy when it was being generally deliver·ed. We really do not have any comments to make, bl'::~causc,~ tAJe IAJOl~ld lik(! t:o see 100 pE!r CE!nt of the allocations before t~JI'::1 make any judgements on i ·t. Of course, if it is consistent with what has bt::1en donr:1 in previous years, it is usually badly bi.as(~d anytAJay.

But we will wait until we see the total allocations before wo make any j udgemE!nts on i {:. MR. BUrT: ·Ml"-. -Spt::1al<er . MR. SPEAKER: L2473 May 31, 1988 Vol XL The hen. the Minister Recreation and Youth. of Culture, MR. BUTT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . As Minister responsible for Amateur Sport, it is my great plr:1asurE! to 1'::1Xtend congratulations on behalf of the government and people of Newfoundland and Labrador to Mrs. Barbara Ryan of Manuels, Conception Bay South, a gracious lady and a superb volunteer, the new President of the Canadian Figure Skating Association. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

BUTT: A dear fr·iend of mine, I might add. Bar·bara was electE!d to the pos·i.tion by accl.arnat.:i.on Rl: t:he Association 1 s annual mE!Ed:tng "in Pent.ici.:on, Br:i-L"ish Columbia, r'lay 28, 1988. Barbara is the first Netl.lfoundli:~nder t.o occupy the Presidency of thE! Canadian Figur'E! Skating Association. Her background in the sport is long and irnprE!SSiVE!, fl"OHl hE!!'" involvement with the Prince of Wales FigurE! Skating CJ.ub in S·t. John 1 s to her position as team leade!r of the Canadian Figul~E! Skating contingc,1nt at thc,1 1988 WorJ.d Championships in Budapest, Hungary.

Bai"bar'i:l has fiqul"(:!d in numerous provincial, national and :i.n c(~r·nc:lttonr.tl. fiquJ"e s kat:ing eVE!nts, including thE! 1984- WoJ"]d W:inl:. c~r Olyrnp.i.cs in Sr:u·ajeliO, Yugoslavia and always at the IJOlunl .oor lE!VGJ.. Mr·. SpE!akE!r', ht::1r goals cH'C~! I.Ar.it:h voluntc-:"!C~I"S c:lnd st.-.i:'IFf" Association to make figure No. 4-6 l::o wor·k of t:he s k.a ti ng R2473

Canada•s premier recreation atlethic activity, to contimte to attract volunteers to see the c r c,1 a ·t. ion - -· -o f a N a ·1: ion a 1 Figure Skating Museum. I have no doubt thai: Barbara Ryan tJJi 11 s 1.1 c c eed i. n accomplishing her objectives. narbara Ryan is to be commended f o r ~H::1 r o 1.1 t.: s 1.: a n d i. n g accompljshments over the years, and hc-:!r election to the Presidency of the Canadian Figure Skating Association tAii.ll, t~ndoubl:E:1dly, have a positive impact on figure skating in our Prouinco, Mr. Speaker, and, indeed, our entire coun·try.

I arn sure all hon. membEH'S of the House will join with me in a joint message of congratulations to be sent to Barbara Ryan, President of the Canadian Amateur Figure Skating Association. Thank you. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. HISCOCK: Mr . Speaker. r"'R. SPEAKER : The hon. the member for Eagle Ri1Jc,1r. MR. HISCOCK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . We, on this side of the House, IJJO U 1 d 1 i I< e t 0 j 0 in IAJi t h the government in congratulating Barbar·a Ryan of Manue,ls on being ·! E:1lected, by acclamation, Preside,nt of the Canadian Figure Skating Association.

The President, Bat"bar·a Ryan, has done a lot: in thE! ProuincE:1 already, as IAJas pointed out, and I am sure she t~Jill continue' to contribuh1 on a national basts. The member for Stephenville (Mr. L2'~74 May 31, 1988 Vol XL K. Aylward) informs me that Dwayne Power, of Stephenville, is now training with the national - figu·re - s k aU. n g t e am be c au s e of t hE! m a n y volunteers like Barbara Ryan, I arn sur·e. Figure skHt.lng is a gr'E!i:~t expense to parents I might say to th-Ls hon. llou~;e. On behi.'llf of thE:1 volunteers and thE! pE!opJ.~;, of this Pr'O'J -Lnce, IAJE! do congr'i:ltu1ato hEll".

We are not surprised that NewfoundlNnders and Labradorians ris~ to this status in Canada, and IAJe lool< for'1.1.1ard to s~H-dng young men and women achieve national standard and then go on to the cilyrnpics. We ask that gouernrnE!nt continue to support them financially as well as rnoralJ.y help:ing them, not only in figure skating but in other amateur sports in this Province. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear. hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for St. John • s East. MR. LONG: The minister is right.

We are pleased to join all hon. rnmnbers, all part·ios together, to send a message of congratuJ.ations. MR. SPEAKER: At this stage I wouJ.d like to lAJ(o1l C Olrl(:~ +:. 0 1: h (:~ 9 a J.J. 0 r• ··.i E! S l:IAJ('! 1 U E! students from Grade V to LE!VE!l I IAJi.+.:h thc~ :ir t(~e1chc,1rs, Judy and Kenneth DtAJyer, from the aJ.J gradE! school in Grand Bruit. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Oral Questions MR. WELLS: No. 46 R2474

Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon: - the of the Opposition. MR. WELLS : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. the like the Speaker, my question is for han. the Premier. I would to ask him if he would advise House whether or not the government is considering conducting a plebiscite in this Province as to the acceptability of the government 1 s proposal for the dis continuance of tho r a i liJ..Ja y in Newfoundland? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier . PREMIER PFCKFORD: Mr. Spc-:~i:'l k er~iie cll'l SIAJOr J. ~) no . MR. WELI..S: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKF.R: A supph~mentaTy, l:he bon . the Leader of the Opposition. MR. WELLS: Has the government had any discussions with the federal government about the conduct of such a plebiscite or the terms and conditions under wh:i ch thE! railtAJay mi~ht be discontinued? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. ·the PrE:HniE!r. PREMIER PECKFORD: cThe answer to the first par·t of thE~ ques t:i.on is no. I do not !<not.~1 about the~! othE!Y' discussions IAJE! hi:\cl. ~~C! l:al.kr,~d yer:·\rs dqo abo11t: the~ ! IAihOl.lO! quc-:~stion or thE!

TE!rrns of u n .i. on or tJ.Jh E:! r· e t hi'\ t F .i t.: -t: E~ cl t n L o the sittHl.tion, but OlH' lc~~gal advisors and others, L2475 May 31, 1988 Vol XL constitutional advisors, tell us t hal tAJO do not h t'l v e a lH:~ r y strong constitutional or legal position t.~s :ii: rE!lal:es t o J.l., as a r·esuJ.t of the Terms of Union tJ.Jhich onJ.y scdd that CN at the ti1ne:~ wou1d take over thE! railway, and did not say anything about. l'lOIAI long thE'y wo u 1 d havE! to rna :i. n t a in j -t:. . Of course, Tt~n·a Nova TE!l is in the same boat. MR. -BAKER: Mr. Speaker . MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Gander . MR. BAKER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . A question to the Premier: For months nOIAJ the Pr,~ rni.c:!r' has bE:!C:ln 1: he so 1 E! spokesman for· t h E:• S p r· lHl ~J 'd r· o c~ n h o u ~; e , 1:-\11 inFo r· rna t:. ion an cl disinformation that has carne out abo u t '1: hi s pro j E:~ c 1:. . H E:! h a s b E:! e n the cucumber supersalE!Sman, no doub ·t about: it. . YestE!rday tAle witnessed the embarrassing spectacle of the Premier running for cover, rE!fusing to anstAJer qur:1stions ·· MR. SPEAKER: Or·dE!r, p1E!ase! The hon. member should pose his qUE!Stion. MR.

BAKER: YE:~s, Mr. Spc-:~akc-:~r. I undE!r's tand. I am laying a good groundwork here. Would the Prerni.er - SOME HON. MEMBERS: You ar·e out of (;rdE!r! ~lL __ §PEAKER : Or·cler·, p1E~ase! MR. BAKER: No. 46 R247 5

·rhank you, Mr. Speaker . Is the Premier trying to disassocicite and distance himself from this project because he realizes what an unmitigated pol"i.tical disast:er it has becorn<ol, o1n can he not:. take thE! heat any more? MR. SPEAKEr~ : The hon. t:he Pr~:mlier . PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, the qu(:~stion is, y<'JS, heat s OITJ(:~ more. answer to that I can take Lhe MR. BAKER: Mr . Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: A supplementary . MR. BAKER: Does thE! Premier reaJ.ize thE! fact that since IJJe are a 50 per· cent owner in the project, his rE!fusal to answer ques lions shows complete disdain for this House?

Does he reaJ.iZE! that ··.noiAJ is the tirne to tell the fruth about this project? When is he going to answer some questions? MR . SPEAKFR: ThG hon. the Premi c ~r . PREMIER PECKFORD: There i:l r C! t:IAJO or L h r <:~ c ~ 411 o s t~ .i. on !> 'the1nE:1. One is no, another is rnayb(:~, iHld t.he thoi.rd iHlSIAier· "is '"''e support research, development and "innovation in our Provi.nce dnd 1.1lill continUE! to do so. MR. BAKER : Mr·. Speake1n. Mf~ . SPEAI<ER: A final supplementary . MR.

BAKER: L2476 May 31, 1988 Vol XL Will the Premier undertake to have answers provided to this list of u ery importan 1: questions which · I - now table? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Table Clyde's salary! MR . SPEAKER : The han. the JTI(:1fTiber for BurgE!O - /3i:"1y d' F.spoJr. MR . -GILBERT: M r . S p o i.'\ k e r· , I h R lJ e a cpH~ s L i o n f o r· the Minister of Transportation ( Mr· . Do y 1 e) . :r 1.110 nd e r :l s the minister awa1ne that thE! Rarn<ola, Burgcw, Grey RiVC:!In FE!r·r·y Commission has lost its threE! members from the Ramea area? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. th~~ Minister of Transportation. MR.

DOYLE: Yes, Mr. Speak(:~r. I IAJas rnadE!· aware of that just a couple of days ago, as a matter of fact, when a letter came to my office advising that the fe:H·r·y cornrnit.h:1e had resigneld. We had not rE!CE:'ived c.~ n y p r· i or· no t i c (:1 from t he committee that they had intended i"". o d o t h :i. s , b u t 1.11 E:1 d i d r· e c c:! :i v E:1 1:1 letter a coupJ.E! of days a~JO :i.nfor·m:i.ng us of LhHt rrtOVE!. MR. GILBERT : ~ supp1omont.ary, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The hon . the ITIE!rrtber· for· Bur•gE!O f:l (:\ y d I E :; p () "."i. i" . MR.

GILBERT: lt. i s i:\11 members to rn :ln·ist·.er· knOIAJ i:hr·ee membe:~r·s MR. SPEAKER: ----·----. The hon. No. 46 lJery tAH~ll for· the thE! thes r:! J.augh! Does I."Jhclt Ci:'lUSE!d to resign? M:i rl"i s t CH' of R2476

TransportRtion. . f"'R. DOYLE: Mr. Speaker, the committee outlined personal reasons For tendering ·t.heir resignation. They f e 1 i: that t:.he y did not I.!JR nt to continue tn that capacity r~nymor·e. I instructed my off i cials to contact them a couple of days ago, and to ask thE!m to come in for a meeting. I think that is in progress, Mr. Speaker. MR. GILBERT: A final supplementary. MR. SPEAI<ER: ~final supplementary. MR. GILBERT: Wh<:'lt doE:1S the minister do to r'<"!plc\CE:1 thos(,1 rn E:1 rn b e r ~; 1.~1 h o h l·\ 'J e r·esignE:1d? MR. SPEAKER : The han. the MinistE:1r of Trd n s po rtc\ t:i. on. MR.

DOYLE: Mr·. Speaker, this is a ferry comrnitt~~e thc'\t - IAJas put in plc:\ce Lo monitor the activities of the transportation system in the area. I would assume that the cornrnuni.ty u.d.11 · L-. r~ke sb:!ps to put in place another ferry committee to do what tho previous cornmitt:.E!E:1 had been doing, and hopefully that !)Jill be donE!. MR. LUSH: Mr·. Speaker. MR. SPEAKEr~: ·ThE:1 hoM.-thE! mE!rnbe:1r fo1" Bonavista North. SOME IWN. MEMBERS: Hear · , hear! Ml~. LUSH: I-l:i·l<:-uil(--hon. ITI(·:Hnl:)(:!rs, Ml". Speaker .. L2477 May 31, 1988 Vol XL PREMIF.R PECKFORD: A point of order, Mr. Speaker . MR.

SPEAKER: Orcl~~r. pleasc,1! () point . of ordE:1r, l:hE! hon. t.hE! Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD : We would just like it acknowledged that our pressure on the Leader of the Opposition has made it possible for the member for BonRvista North to gE!t a qUE!Stion tn. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Mr~. SPEAKER : There is no point of order. The hon. the mE!rnbE!r for· Bonav:i~;t.a Nor·+:h. MR. LUSH: Mr·. Spoi:\kel", my gu~:!!>-1:'.-.ion ts For· the Minister of Municipal Affaii"S (Mr. BrGI :: i:) .

Tl: is promplE!d by the smattering of announcements we haue been hearing in the last couple of days, re: capital IAIOrks projects for municipalities throughout ·the ProvinCE!, t.hE! latest one being an announcement today by the rnE!dia of $3 mt11ion, one-eighth oF t.he budgE!t, for· t:he town of Conception Bay South. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, h(,1ar! MR. LUSH: My ques t:ion, t.l·1erE:1·fo1"e, to thE! rninistE!r Js: Can he indicate to t.:his Hous~: ! and t·.o l.:h(,1 publ"ic of Newfoundland what is the status of t.:he cap"i.td1 IAlor·ks pi"OjE:!cl'.s of h:is department?

What is the pre s ent stc\t.us? 1 · 1<:-\V(~ rn<,1irlbCo:!Y's oppo t; Jt:E! being notified? Are they pub1ic for them and not public for t.:he No. 46 R24.77

-w::-.6_.,.. ...... ""' -.._ • •• __. .. _____ ... _ - - ... -- -- - . ~.... ..--· ·- ... -~- --.- ... - -· ~--.--· · ~·· ·--·-· rest of Province? MR. SPEAKER: the people of this The hon. the MinistE!r' of Municipal Affairs. MR. BRETT : Mr. Speak~~r, l::he capital IAJOI"ks projects for the department will bc-:1 tabled on rhursday or Fr-:i.de1y, and hon. members on both sides of the House wi l.l be no ·t-i.f:i.ed, and auerybody else will be notified by that t"i.me. MR. LUSH: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the han. the member for Bonauista North. MR. LUSH : Mr.

Speaker, my supplementary to the minister is this: Is h~1 not allowing his authority to be eroded by allowing Cabinet ministers and backbenchers to announce outside of this House, ·thus doing a · great dis courtesy to the members of this Hous~1 and a great discourtesy to the public of this Province? Would he not admit that his authority and influence are being eroded? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the MinistE!r of Municipal Affcdi"S , Ml~. BRETT : No , M I" . S p r:1 a k e r· . T 1·1 e a n s we r· i s no . MR. FENWICK: Ml" . Speakc-:H'. Ml~. SPFAKEI~: ThE! hon. t.:hc;! ITIE!rnbel" for · Ml;!nihek . MR. FENWICK : Mr.

Speaker, U1 E! M i n 'i s tC::H' my of question is F 'is I'HH'i E! s for (Mr. L2478 May 31, 1988 Vol XL Rideout). It has to do udth comments made by the Chairman of FPI yesterday when he· indicat-ed - that FPI was expanding into the Norti'H :1rn Pacific to catch Alaskan pollack and going into the Gulf of Mexico and the Mississ'ippi Delta in order to expand its fishing E ~ ntor·pr·isE!S . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Order, plr:1c\s~:!! MR. FENWICK : My q 1.1 <~ s t i. o n , M i" .

S p C:h-l k o r , J. s : Since we now have three or four of o L1 r 0 I.AJ n p 1 ill'l t S LLJ lri. c h F P I S 1 0 u g h E! d off several YE!ars ago, dE:1spite our o b j o c i: t o n s , g o 'i. n g b r:1 q g 'i n g , IAJ h i~ t plans does the minister have to rn f.\ k e s u r· E:! t: h a t F P I , I.AJ h i c h IAJ a s hE!aviJ.y subsidiZE!d in thE! past by our efforts and by our funds, clean up the mE!SS they crE!ated in our own Province before they go trying to set up new centers to make profits udth tiH1 monE!Y they have already made in this Province? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fishc,1ries . MR.

RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, that is about IAJha t; t:he YOU IAJOI.Il.d C:!XflC:1Ct fr·orn SociaJ.:ists --· SOME HON. MEMBERS: lloi.·lr, hear! MH. RIDEOUT : 1.uho L\Jf.l n l:. to ITii:l k (:1 no sure, Ml". SpeakE:H', IAJ h f.l L <~ v o r' magnitudE!, Prov-:i.nce. phtJ.osophy, that i l s s:iz<;!, sur·v:ives ever· ·rhd 1:. is the Ml" . SpE:1a k E:H'. Nou.J, Mr. Speaker·, let TnE! to ti'H;! hon. gc,1ntlernr:1n No. 46 businE!SS, or any in thi s ~::; () c :i f.l 1 ·i s t:. also that say t: hE! R2478

expansion of FPI into ~laskr.1n pollack, or other fisheries of the tJJorld, Mr. Speaker, has nothing t.o do with a-- -plant in St. Lawrence or a p l i.'\ n i.: J n P o r t i:Ht x B a s q u o s . Nothing! Absolutely nothing! That is new fishcr1es, new development of underutilized speci.es in other parts of the world that this company, or any other company may wish, at some point in the! future, to take advantage of. And the mess, Mr. Speaker, that the hon. gentleman 1 s talks about is a mess that has created 8,600 jobs in this Province, 8,600 well-paying jobs in this Province, that has SE!en, Mr.

Speaker, pJ.ants in Grand Bank, Ramea, Burin and Gaultois that tJJere suppose to be shut dotJJn saved . That is 1: he mE! s s , Mr . Speaker, that has been created! 1'-11~. FENWICK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A suppl.emc~nli::~ry, the hon. I: he member for Menihek. MR . FENWICK: rJJr.

Sp~:1aker, my supplementary to the Minister of Fisheries is this: Would the rn:i.nish1r· not a cl rrri t t h a t UH:1 $ 8 0 rrl'i 11 i o n o r s o in pr·ofits that FPI hr.~s pich1d up OVE:1r the last coupJ.e of years arE! aCt lH:lll y b (;d n g US E:! d n OIAI t 0 d ('!V (,1} 0 p fishet"ies in other parts of thE! countr·y f.lnd :in othE!r' pat"ts of the world at the expens e of the plants that they have dropped in St. Lawrence? And what is he going to tell to the people of St.

LatJJrE!I'lCE!, thE! pE!opJ.E! of LatAm, the people of Port aux Basques and other parts of the Province who have been lE!fl: in a lur·ch as l:hE! result of the irresponsible actions of t.h:is pt".i.Vi:ll:E! cornpr-.lny? MR. SPEAKER : L2479 May 31, 1988 Vol XL or cl F:l r· , p l e a s e ! ~:30M[ HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: ThE:~ hon. i:hE:1 Mi.rdster of F.ishc ·H'iE!S . MR. RIDEOUT: Mr.

Speaker, the $80-something rni.ll:i on t h t:'l t F PI has 1 E! g it 'i rna tel y earned by good business practices .in the markE!tplace ovC:~ r the last several years are bedng reinvested into new trawlers built in Marystown, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, ht':1ar! MR. RIDEOUT: It has been, Mr· . SpeakE!r, :i.n expans-.ions l':o netJJ r 1::1 i n1J e s t (! d plants, Bona1ri s ta, millions the pJ.ant out in for example, several of dollars. I 1: is reinvested in the secondary processing plant in Bur·in. It is reinvested ·in the pl.Ant out in Triton and the plant up in Port au C h o i x .

T h i:l 1·: 'i. ~' I.AI h a t:. "i. :; h a p p (;! n -.J. n g with FPI, Mr. Speakel". Dynamic, progressive, a Newfoundland success story that the Socialists cannot stand, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. FENWICK: Mr . S p C:1 a I< E! r . MR. SPEAI<ER: A final supplementary. MR. FENWICK: A fin~l suppletTIE!nt ·. c:'lry fr·orn t.he So c i a J. i s t s i n t11 j _ s c o r n E! r , M I" . Speaker. The final supplementary is this : Wi 1 J. the rn:i n is tE! r L E! J. ·.1 us what levers he has left to force FPI to J.ive up to its r 0 s p o n s i b i l i t y tAd 1: h . r· ~~ g f.l r d t o Uw No. 46 R2479

~ • ..,-_.__'!_ .. _ ._. --··.- --- ·-· -4' •• ~~_.;__ ·----·····-.-1-.. ~ .. .. ,;_,_...i.;...,:,:~: ......... - - four plants that he disposed of to operations that have obviously not been successful and have now put the:Hn bacY-- up for sale? Does he have any levers lE!ft 'in order' to force them to live up to their obligations? MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, what a Foolish Socialistic question!

What lol.JOr!>, Mr. ~:ipea!<E,1r, dOE!S the Minister of Fisheries have left to d e a 1 lAd t h t he p J. cl n t d i s p o s (:' d o 11 t in TL~dllingate? What levers does tho Min"i.stc~l" of Fishe,~l".i.os hi.''ll.JO lo deal with plants in Bide Arm, Englee or Flowers Cove? Too foolish a question, Mr. Speaker, to even try to respond to. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the m~mber for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I have a qUE!Stion for the Minister of Fisheries.

The minister said yesterday that the provincia] government is sympathE!t:i.c to Lhe E!ffor·t~; or the,~ Fish Aid Development Agency to get f t.l n d s , b 1.1 1.-. h (! Hl s o s c:·l ·i. cl l: h e y cannot carry the organization ctl. 0 n E:~ • I IJJO ul. cl J. i. k C:! t 0 aSk thE! minister what representation has 1-: h C:! 9 o l.J e r' n rn e n t rn i'l d c:! l: o l: h C:!

F o cl e I" ;:., l gov~::~J"nrnent: t.o gE~l: funds fr·orn thE! f t'! d e r' a 1 g o 1.1 e I" n rn e n +: , i·~ !> h e indiccttc,!d yE:!stel"day that l:hE!Y had, a n d IAJ h y j_ s l:: h e f E~ d E~ r' d l. g o !J (~ r n rn e n '1: refusing that aid? MR. · SPEAKER: L2480 May 31, 1988 Uol XL The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, on the second part of t-.hat qt.test.'ion I hc.'lV(:~ no idE!a tJJhy the federal governmE:1nt, through CEIC or some other presently E! x i s t i n g pro g r a rnrn E! , i s 1n e f u s i n g l o fund FADA. I ht-\V(:! no :lc!E~Cl. That is thedr dE!Cision.

I haVE! heal"d r·urnor·s, I have hetH'd gossip, but I do not know what the final Uli rfk i. n g :l s . On the first part of the questjon, Mr ~ Speaker, we have made numerous representations over the last several. months. There has been representation in writing, there has been representation verbalJ.y. We have done it in the presence of some of t.he office:!~''~' of FADA r.-H1d we have done it on our own besides l: h d l . ~:) o -1:. h C! r' e h c:l lJ E! b c• e n n u rn e I" o u s rE!prE!Sentations mad~~ by us on b(:1hRlf of FADA t.o thE! goue:~rntnE!nl of Canada supporting thedr rE!qUE!St for· funding. MR.

TULK: A supplimentary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: n suppl~::~mentar·y, member for Fogo. MR. TULK : the hon. thE! Mr. SpeNker, I wonder would the Minister of Fisheries table any cor· r E~ s pond C:! n c e l:: h C:·l l:: h c~ rnJ 9 h t. havE! had or any results of meetings l::h.:-\1.-. hn rn-.i.ght: have hi:td? I c.1lso as I< him if hE! is awa1"e that thE!I,..,C'! rwi.gh l-. bE:1 !>orne •Jr·oup, lAJhether' i l:. is a Cabinet minister from 1\J (~ l~oJ F o 1 1 n d l n n d , IAJ h e i.: h C:! i" ··.i. 1:. -:i. s a 1'111 P from Newfoundland that rnight be oppo~;(~d l:o th:i.!> func:l'inq oF l:.hts organization?

And would he also pel"hi'lflS Lc~l.l. u~; tAJh<'ll: thC::!J.I" rationale might be? As the M·.i.n'isler· of FishE:1r'-:l.(~s I IJJoulcl oxpec t him, obv .iou sly, to I< now. No. 46 R2480

MR. RIDEOUT: Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEr.lKER: ThE! hon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. RIDEOUT: Ml". Spc~~akc-:~r, I have just finishc~~d t: e 11. "i. n g t h e h o n . g o n t l E! l'rliHl ·Uwl: I havr::~ no idE1a why funding has bElen rejected by 01::taiJJf.\. I can say to this House, and can say without foar of contrt'ldict'lon anywherc-:1 in this Province, that we as a government have supported the agency. We have supported it in writing and verbally in ils attempts to get funding out of Ottawa. And not only that, Mr.

Speaker, but when they had no other funding so far, ·to this day, it has been the government of this Pr·ouince that has carr-:ied the organization financially. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the membor fo~ Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr·. Speaker, I aru not quarrelling IAJ i. t h t h e p r o 'J i. n c ".i. al g o v "'' r n me n t ' s input into t.hcd:-. olnganin'ltion at all; of course, if they ct-\n put rnor'E1 in t.hen I would expect them Lo pul mol"~~ "i.n.

I arn no l: quarelling with t.he han. gentJ.ernan at r.lJ.l in thclt rE1gard, bu l: I IAJould like to ask hirn, as thE' Minister of Fisheries responsible for Netufoundland, would hE! attempt t:o find out fr·om t.he federal government who or what organization or what Cabinet minister, in Ottawa or wherever, is trying to subvE,rt his att~?.rnpts to get funding from the federaJ. government For this organ-ization?

I have no quarrel with thE' hon. gentleman's work as a provincial L2481 May 31, 1988 Vol XL ministE:~r, go to his fi. nd ou i.: bul I c.'lm asldng him to federal counterpart and what is happening · up there. MR. RIDEOUT: Min. Sp(;!ctl«~~r. rJJR . SPErli<ER: ThE' hon. the:~ Mtnister· of FisheriE!S. MR . RIDEOUT: Mr. · SfH:1ak~::Hn, fi.rs l: of all, of course, I never take as gospel truth any allegations or assertions that the hon. gE,ntlemc!n makes from time to t-:ime in the House. But if the hon. gE!ntlernan 1.uould likt~ an ansiA.Ier to that question, then I would assumE! that Mr. Foh1y is very approachable. MR.

EFFORD: Mr·. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member· for Port dE! Grave. MR. EFFORD: Mr·. SfH~akc-:~r. my question is t·.o thE! Minister of Heal ·l::h (Dr. ColJ.ins) iHl d J s , a g a :i. n , :i. n r· e 1 d 'L: i. o n t o t h e desperate situat~on in our hospit~ls across the Province. The minister finally admitted ·th<:d:. one of the solutions that could be taken in relation to curing the problem aL the hospitals is the number of acute bE!dS occupiE!d by l.ong .. -·t.:E!Y'Irl pati~~nts. Th~~ ITiinistE!Y' said that in a recen·t statE!ITIE~nt, just on the weekend.

I would ask ti·H:' M~inist.er of Health: Now that hE:1 l'lcls stat eel pubJ.icly that increas-ing the number of beds ts a u.Jay of curj ng the Pl"obl.ern, is his govc:,r·nrnE,nt nou.1 going to provide money to build rnor·(~~ SElnior· cJ. L~:i.ZE!I'lS' homes to take care of long-term patients who are presently occupying beds No. 46 R2481

in hospitals? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, lAJe are doing l:ha t. on a progi"'E!ssive basis. I think at the present time there are something like 2, 000 beds for level 2 and level 3 r'E!Siden ·ts IAJho need nursing care in the Province. In th.:1 last yc:1r.1r or so we have added, I think, another 248. We i:1re continui.ng !·:hat planning exercise. In cHicH Lion t.o thr.t l: -· i:l.nd T. Ur'i.nk that this is an ar·ea that we have L o de v e 1 o p rno r e i.'l n d rno r ~) .

IJ..JC::1 t-l.l"' e in a VEH'Y r.lctive planning mode in r (:1 g r.'l r d t o :i m p r· o lJ'J. n 9 h o rn E:1 c <:H' e services and community care SC;!Y'lJi.CE!!). .( t·.hink -i.n 0111" visitations around the Province, t he o fH~ r a bH' !> oF t hE! 1n1 r i. o u s nursing homes agreed with us - we di.d not sort of gE!t this oui:: of them in any sort of argumentative lAJa y ; t h c:1 y v o 1 u n teE! red it '.in mc:Hl y respects that som(~ of the r·e s id E:Hlts admitted c ou 1d r·ea 11 y have bee!n kept home if there! had been adequate development of horne care and community SE!rvices around the Provj .nce .

WE! ar'Ei! ac t'.ivC::1ly working towards that end . MR. EFFORD : ~ suppl e mentary, Mr. Spe~ker . MR. SPE~KER: A sup p 1 erne n tar y , t h <::1 h on . the i me m b ~H' f o r· P o r· t d E~ G i" i':1 lJ e . Ml~. EFFORD : Ml" . SpE:1i:lkE)r', J.t is qu ·ite obvious lh ~·1l ·l·.he Min-i.!;1:.el" or llec:11'L:h dOE!!) not undeJ"S'\:and the:1t. lAJhat hE:1 has be e n d o j , n 9 i. n L h o p c:-1 s t: i !> no t lAJOI" ld ng and he is got ng to have to es Cc'l1i.'\ te :i L 'l.o llli:'lkE! -L 1: lAJOl"k "i.n t.hc:1 future .

L2482 May 3 1 , 19 8 8 Vol XL In light of another statement that the minister made concerning small hospitals around thE-) IsJ.arid, · t:hat ­ there are too many beds opening in our· small hospitals, is he t~:!lling us, for example, on the! Burin Peninsula, where there are three hospitaJ.s, that ·t.hE! bE!ds arE! going to b~~ closed, or· that two of tho s e~ hospitaJ.s are going to be closE!d and just one used on the Burin Peninsula, and the samE! with othe!r plac~s an the Island? Is that what the minister is saying? MR. SPEAKER: ThE! hon. ti'H:1 Minister of Health. DR.

COLLINS: M i"' . ~:) p c ~ a k er· , I] o lJE! r· n rn e n L ' s p o 1. -.i c y on that is absolutE!ly cr·ysta1 cloRt' c:'lnd ·i. l has boE:!n s t: <.·1'l::E:!d c:~bout a dozen times. We have decided to p '' t: on +·.he 131.11" j , n Pen :i. n ~:; u 1. d r.:1 n up- ·to-date, E:~fFictent, E!ff<;~ct:iVE!, 1.\JE!ll ·ogtli.ppoc:l, l"(~ gional ho s p .itc-::~1.. That will be opened on a progr~1ss'.ive bds:is o~JE!r' l:h<;! l'lE!Xi': number of months. Now, prior to that, there IAJE!I"E:' s rn~ 11 E! r· h o s p :it al s t h EH' E! that d r.d: e back thirty and forty yec1rs, and time has passed on s~inCE! that time.

So what we have said j s that WE! iH'E:~ going to of ·fc;!r thE! peoplE! down there rnodE!rn day hospital carc:1, and IAH:! are go·:i.ng t.o lE:1aVE! it. up to the PE!OplE! -- IAlh:lch :is thE! pr·oper Lh:i.ng Lo do, and :il.: i s clonE! in every part of the Province - to use that facility to thG exte~L that they IAlish to use if for their 01.1Jn n<)Od~;.

I ·t:.h ·tnk thi.·1t (i!VOryonE! wi 11 a g r· E! <::~ l>~d t h that, and thE! pE!OpJ.e on !-:he Blli"·.'i.n P~: !n·insula have :indica ted, 1..1r.i. thou ·t: any s hadot~J of a dot1b+:, l:.hny ,:·11"C! lfiO~;+.: plec:1socl to hr.~vc~ t:hJs rnod~~r·n fac'il:i.ty rnaciE: ~ d lJ <:1 :i. l i:l b l e t.: o 1.: h ern . T h e o n l y o 1:: h C:! r· E!quivaJ.c;•nt factl-.:L ·I:y of 'tha ·l: natui"E' i:'llJ <:·1 J l i.'\ b l. o t. o i:. h o rn , 1.1 p 1.1 n t:. -.1. l v Ei! r· y r·ecently, was her·e J.n St . No. '~6 R2482

John's. In the last few years they could also go to Clarenville, which is a newly opened hospitaL 1..vh·:i.ch I..VC::1 hav(~ pr'Olri.c:IE!d For· that.: ar·c.;!a also. nut they ar·e most pleased ·to haVE:1 Lhis exll"a, 11p -to -- clr:·1t<:1 Fac:i.l"i.l·.y available to them. No one is g o i n g L o F o r· c E! 1:·. h e rn l o 1 1 s o :J. l b 1 1 t. c~lveryone expects, because of the altitude they are tdking towdrd i t , t hat i t wi 11 be pro g r e s s i v e 1 y used by the people on tho Peninsula. What happens to the smaller inslitulions that are there_ now is for government to dec-idr::1.

We:1 1..vill not IAii:lste those resources. They are still v a 1 u a b 1 e a s s e l s to t hi s P r• o v i n c C::1 and we will not waste those assets and not waste the expertise and the de!dication of the people who a r· e IAJO r king :in tho s C::\ p r· ~~ s EHI t Facilities. MR. EFFORD: A final supplementary, Mr. Spe~ker . MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary . MR. [FFORD: The MHA For the hosp-.itals r.1re:1 not b u t t h ('! 1 n j_ n :i. ~; i:. e r· going to close .

MR. ~3IMMS: ar(:lf.'l says 17.he going to close ~;;:1 y !; t h n y r:n· e II ~:! d 'i. d n o L s r:'l y -1:. h E! y IAJ E:! r• 1::! 9 0 i. n g t. 0 close. MR. DINN: Why do you not open your ears, boy? MR. SPEAKER: o-rder, ple!aSE!! MR. EFFORD: Mr·. Spc,1akc,1rl I had rrrilk for· lunch. I wonder if the members on the othE!r s-:ide drank apple-?. juicr::1? They seem -to be very hyper this L24-83 May 3 11 19 8 8 Vol XL . --... -···--· ----· -· ~ ~ _ ..... -·-· -·-· . --.. . --- afternoon. I ask does the minister· ag~~e ~i~h l:he stc1i:ernenl Oi". Young rnc:~de that the reason bE!dS close dur-ing thE!

Summer rnonth!> tH'(~ bcc\Ci·1USE! of budget cuts and not what the,\ 1ni n -.i. s l: or· h i'l s beE! n s c:l y t n g I l: h R l.: J l:. is bC:lcause pE!OplE! do not go into h o s p J L ;::~, 1 t n ~> 1.1rnrn o r· ? T s D I" . Y o u n g correct, or is ·the minister· still s a y l n g IAJ h a i: h e h i'\ s ~H:! o n s <.'1 y i. n g -.i s c o r r ·e c t , that t he y c 1 o s e bE! c au s E! pEwp1C::1 clo not go -i.nto hospJtal? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister Health. DR. COLLINS: Mr·. Speai<C:lr, I IArish that theSE! words would not bE! band'iE!d about.

The r e:1 a r· e no c u t s i n l: h C::\ f u n d i n g to hospital operations in this P r· o v i n c c~! .

I s p o !< o l o t h e N M A at the WE!E!kendl and thE!l"e IJ.Jas no qu~::1sl~. 'ion of the:l.i.r not accepUng rny word on it because they fully agr'E!C:ld on it and I poinb:H:l out. to them that over the last: ten years t h ~H' <-:\ ell" C:! b l.;! 'liAHH~Hl 2 1 I 2 l·:. o 3 t.: i m e s the amount of funding going 'into MCP and our· hospi-l:t-ll . ~;, .... and th:is is the area where doctors ·IAJorl<, in fJ!CP and hospi.tRl~; ;,.u; thc,1rr::1 has been of a gener·al inci"C::laSE! in our· c 11 i" r· (:' n 1:. ;:·1 c co 11 n L :; .

T. n o L h c~! r· 1.1JO I" d s I tve ar·e putting 2 1/2 to 3 ·U.iTIE!S t: h (~' r 1.1 n c:l j_ n g in l h (:\ r' (,\ d s t·. he 1" C! ]. s (.~ genoral increase in our current i~lccoun-1:-. s. In othe1" IAJor·ds tAJC:\ t:•1r'r:! putting 2 1/2 to 3 times the dlnot:nt. of rnont':lY :in t·.hose t:.t.:.Jo uJl:.iill areas for medical services than we d r· E! d o i n g o n t. h E! g e n ~~ r· a 1 b a s J s F o r all government servj.CE!S. NOIJ.J 1 IAJh<'lt-. Dr·. Young says I c:-J.ITI not r E! s p o n s t b 1 e for .

I t h -:i. n k y o u could pr·obably p:i.ck SC::1ntei'ICE!S out of any speech and say that thJs ts t:hr::1 Hlain rnr::1ssc:·lqE! in l:hat speech. Dr·. Young is a VE!ry r'E!asonablE! r.~nd v ~H' y r· E! s p o n s i b 1 C:\ p h y s .i c -.i a n , a n cl h e will say a number of things but he No. 4-6 R2483

does not take a single narrow view oF thi.ng:;. S11r'e, he says we ,,~,ould like to have more money in the health care system, but he also says that we have a lot of new h1chnology, we have a lot of dElVeloprnent that we have done and mor'E:1 IAIE! hclVI'::1 to do, t.hat IAJB hi:Wt1 cer·tain difficultiE:'S in gE!tting nurs'.ing staf ·F at Cl'::1rtain t:imE:1S of the year I but Dr. Young has taken a very broad and a very SE!nsible view of this whole situation. MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speai<E:1r. MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker·. Ml~. SPEAKER: I und(o11~s · Uwd that tAJas a final supp1etn( :,nt:ar·y .

ThE:1 hon. the mE~mbE:H' for· thE:1 Str·ait or BC:1l1e T.sle. MR. DFCI<ER: Mr. Sper:~kel", my quesl'i.on is to the hon. thE:1 Minister of Education. 1 he minister will know about the incident where some ed~cation experts resigned from a provincial advisory c ommi +:. ·h:1l~1 bE! cause thE:1 choice of a new math course was in their· tAJords, not based on 'rational rE!asons' . Will thE! minister tell the House what terms of reference were used, when he d El C i d e d IAJ h :i C h I rJ i~ t: h C 0 U I" S ~:! t: 0 a c c e p -1:, if Hw dEl cis ion 1.ua s not a r·ational d(o1ctsion 1 i;lS thOS(o1 ··E:,ducatoi"S say?

MR. LONG: He read The Sunday Express. MR. SPEAI<F.H: T h e h o n . l. h c~ M 'i. n t s +·. e I" o (' E cl1 1 c n l: .i. o n . Mr~. 1-1 F.:() 1~N: Mr·. Speaker·, mE! say tlAJ() L2481J. Me1y 31, 19H8 lJol. XL · .... · .,_._ .... ·~- .. --·-·-·· -·-" ..... · -··~-· -- · things : Firstly, perhaps the hon. the mr:HnbHr For St. John's Eas-t (Mr. Long) should haVE!. s-tayed· jn - his IJJhE!E'lChi:\ir• i:lnd he IAJOUld haVE! gotten more sympathy.

Secondly, i t s e ern s I 1 is tEl t·J:i n g to the f :L r s t quE,stion today from thE' hon. the Lomcli::!l" of th~~ Opposi-t.ion and l'lOIAJ this one, that the members opposite got The Sunday Express a day 1 ate , b r:1 cause t h E:l s c~ WE! r· ~:! questions we usually ge-t on Mo rufa y , sin c t1 b o ·t h topics we r· e covered in the paper. MR. BAKER: Answer the question. MR. HEARN: ThE:1 anst.uer to the question - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh~ oh! MR. TOBIN : 1 .. -Lslen to J-11:-lr'r'y'~> young ·fE!ll.otv . MR. HEARN: -i.l i.s lJC:1ry si.rnpl.e. ThE!

ITIE!mbe:1rs of a primary-elementary curriculum comrnilt('l(o1 l~esoignc;,cl, not an advisory committee to thE! min:ister or any · such th:ing, although t.ue have a general advisory cornrnitte'e made up of representatives From thE! different agencies . This was a committee on mathametics selecting a nElW course. TherE! U.Jc~s a tied vote on the rlecision of two different companies. The Cun·:iculum Consultant I IAJho cast a tying votE! actually, was in favour· of t:ho ' n<~w text, The Math Quest, l:·.hij'-1.: lrli:,ny oducr.·,i:.or·s :in l::h~~ f:i(:!ld favour.

So to makE' surE! that thE• c o r· r e c +·. +: e x 1:. IAJ a s s e l e c t: C! d f o r· t: h C:' p(;,oplc,1 IAJho use it: and the studE!nts J n t. h o f -:i. C! J. d I IAJ e ~' Ill" u o y C! d i·:,, n urn b (! r· of rna t h co-· or· d :in a t: or· s and t E! cl c h El r· s in I:: he r • i .<~ld I i:lf'Jc:l t:. h("' c:loc:i.~; i, on was practically unanimous, I t1nder·st :.;;·1nd 11nan:i.tno11~> fr·orn t::ht=! field, th~1t Uw Addison WeslE'Y No . '~6 R2t~84

text, the one selected, was by far the better text. In fact I heard an educator yesterday morning being inb':fr•v:ie::n•Jed on CBC r·adoio and he referred to i ·t as an . exceptionally good text. So t.l.lhc~Hl th~H'(~ lAJc:-lS d l'.·."i.ed dC!Cl!non, we took our guidance from the f i. (~ l d , L h <~~ p ~1 o p J. e '"J h o t 1 s (o! "i. t a n d thE:1 pE:wpl<"' uJho t.ui11 benefit from :i. l . C ~<:1 r t a :i. n l y 1 c o ul d 1 .. i. !> t , b u 1:.

I will not take the time of the HOUSC::1 to do -i.t, i:lbOilt i.:E!rl rC::1i:-\Sons givc"'n why it is a far superior text thr:"'n the orws that. some of the other members of the committee thought might bC::1 t.he orH~1 that:. UJC::1 should use . MR. DECKER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: ... __ .. _____ _ A supplementary, the::1 hon. the member for the Strait of B~.-:1lle Isle. MR. DECKER: It is too bad the minister did not read The Sunday Express

article himself. He would have knov.m it t.uas unanimous t.uhen , t.. hc~1 ftnal report came in. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, he is some boring. SOMF HON. MEMBFRS : Spt1al< up! Sp(!r:"'k 11p! MR. DECKER: I am not blessed with a strong voice, fJ!t" . Spcc~ak<:!l". So 'i.f t:hH han. peoplE! want to hE!ar· me thE!Y are just going to hctve to be still, bE!Cause I do not havE! thE! s t r· e n g t h to y c~~ 11 . MR. SPEAKER: l2485 May 31, 1988 Vol XL Order, please! MR.

DECKER: HclS t.h~.-:1 mi.nisi:<~r mE!t t.;.Jith ·t.hc tlJJo educational experts to ascertain IAJ 1·1 (:\ t l: h <~1 p r 0 b l. l~ rrt $ WE! F' "=1 , ·t 0 S C:1 E! t.uhether or not there is a gE!nuine 1"r:1ason? B(~cc1uso tl:ll:; "i.s e1 \>(!t"-:i.ous mattE!r. It might just bEo! a S q I I i.-1. b b ]_ 0 , S 1.11" 0 . [J I I t IAJ h <:'! 1'1 IAJC! arE! dealing with thE! educat·ion of our· dd.ldrcHl, T th'i. n k -· MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.

DECKER: T d. s k L h (~ rrd n t s t c;! r· : lias L he minister met with those C::H~ucati.onal Co1XP<-:lrts to see :if 'J.t is not just a squabbJ.e, or if thE! r· e tAJi:<:~ s a leg :it :i rna t. e::1 r· e c:H on for thedr actions? M fL_§_P E A I< ~B. : The hon. the Minister of Education. MR. HEARN: Mr.

Speake::1r, we have 'in our de1partrnent a number of curri cu1urn c ornmi t. t.: E:H~1 l> , c ornmi U: C::1 e s rncl d c~1 up of the curriculum consultants in the udr:ious aroas ~nd also teachers from the field, some people who IAJor·k, p(~r·hRps, at t:l'w l:lOiH'd l.C::wel, many of Lhern classroom teachers, t~Jho dr'~ ~>E!1(:1Ci".:E!d J.n th(:1-i.t" f:i~~!J.d of expertise to make up the c o rnrwi. t-. i.: o <~1 !> , 1:. o rna k e !> e 1. l'.! c t. J o n s , t:. o r e co mrn E! n d t E! x t s , and , 'i n so rrH:! c a s e s , L o c:l C::1

l) e l. o p c 1 1 r· r· :i. c u l u rn material. When there :is a disp~te ~~;'co t~.Jh "i .c h t.oxi:. 'i.s bet.t:er·, t.hen they tl1errtSE!lves dec:ide!, or· t.UE:1 try t. o f :i. n d s om o o L h e r rn ~:! t: h o d o F ascertaining 1..1Jh:ich is the correct. ono . In t~h:i.s cas1::1, so1n~=! o·f l::hE! l"(:!a~;on~:; given by thE! peoplE! in the fiE!ld, l: h ~c1 p E! () p l. E! IJJ h 0 IAI.i 11 U S (~1 1:: h i S t (C! X t u1tirnately for the children are: Th1::1 .gE!OmE!tr·y clnd triE!i:1sur'EHTlE!nt ar'l'::1 No. 46 R2485

superior; l.:he scope and s·eq11ence of whole numbers and decimals are more i.'l.ppr·opr·i. a ·te; con c c-} p-t: developm~~t is superior; emphasis on cotnpt .tl:. a ·l:. i.on J"(-:1rl.ecl!> ct.tr'J"enl tnHtds; estima-tion is superior; thet"( o1 .is i.·1 pt~r·al.l.(~l. tr·an~>li.·1l:ton "i.n Fr·E!I'ICh fo1n FlnE!rJCh irnrn~H'Sion, 1.\Jhich IJJa S n 0 1~. t: h (~ Y' !::1 l.o~J":i L h t: he 0 t h ~~I" 0 n ~~ ; the design and physical aspects of t he t e x t i s s u p e r i or ; t: (-:1 a c he r· s addition provides a wide range of ideas; and the attitude of the students towards mathematics was more positive in the 111aLh quc-?.st. pilot schools .

The evaluation techniques lhat were used from the field were IJJri tten r'E:1ports, r,::tl::ing instruments, teleconferences, and v:i. si. ta li.on by I: he 111a t:he111a U. c s consultants . Twenty schools were p .i l o l e cl 1...1Ji. t h b o L h L h o ~; ~=! ·t: ex l: s , approximately 275 te~chers, K to VI, r.1pprox~i.rnat. E:1ly 6, 000 s l'.udent.s, and they IJJore the ones who s 1.1 g g e s i'.: e cl 1.: he rni:' t: h q 1.1 e ~> l.: p .i 1 o L !; e r i e s 1JJa s by far s u p e r i or to t he olhHr ones.

To answe1n I.: hE! - oth e r· pi:lr'-t: of l: hH qUE:1stion, have I met with them, we hi::tVe curri.culurn conunil~.tec~s i.:h<:1t·. dE!al IJJit.h our consultants. I hi.'tVE:1 not b~ : !E!n askE!d La rn~=!~~ 1:. IJJi.l.:h them . It wa s hand 1 e d by the curriculum division, as it s h o u 1 d . They madE! the decision as t h e y a r· e s u p p o s e d to d o . SOME HON . MEMBERS: HEH:lr, hE!ar! MR. DECKER : A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPErl KEf~ : A final supplementary, the hon. the:! 1nernbe1" for· Lho ~3'1-: r·,:,:it·. of:- nell{.~ Isle . MR. DECKER: May 31, 1.988 \) o l. X 1 .. Mr·.

Sp8~ke::H', i. l.: .1.s nol: 11(~ccssdry for the minister to read ThE! F::cltlc~l:i.on rlcl:.. Ml~. SPEAKER: Order, pleaSE!! MR. DECKER: I ask the minister: Is he absolutely satisfiE!d that thEH'E! -.is no pr·oblE:Hn ht:H'E:1, that the parents of this Province can rE!lax, there is · no conCE:1r'n, t.hE!r'e oi.s no problem? 11 EVE!rything is under c o n i: r· o l. , 11 a s G e n . H a i g s a i d , a s h e was in chargE! I.IJhE!I1 ·thE! PrE!~d.dE!nt 1Ali:1 S S h 0 t . Is thE! minister satisfj_E!d that ~w -i.s Jn cont:r·ol, t.h~:!Y'(~! 'is not-.hing t:o worry about, everything -.is perfect?

Can the people of N e wf o u n d 1 and r E! s t as s u r c,1 d that thE! 1 n J n t :; t: C:! I" "i. s s a l: J :> f t e d 1.o~ri. 1·.: h IAJ h i:'t l:: happened with this math problem? MR. SPEAI<ER: Tho hon. the M:i . n:i.~;tc,1r' of Ecit.ICi'1 l:. :i.on. MR. HEARN: Mr·. Speake!r, if I l.o~Jere taking the tAJor·d oF, sdy, two pr~ople agaJnst two people wh~ were tied up in +.: h t s d i. s p u to h E:H' e:1 , I IAJ o u 1 d h a v e some conCE!rn, you know, all of l: h (!! m b o t n 9 v e I" y , tJ e I" y J. n l E'! 11 i 9 (!! n t people, people who have a J.ot of E:1 x p (-:1f' i E:Hl c E:1 i. n t hi s f -.1.

E! l d and consequentJ.y it: rrd.ght: bE! hard to decide or determine which group would have thE! corrE!Ct choicE! mad~~- What h~~lp~~d us rni:<tkE:1 our choice, and IAJhy I fE!Ed quitE• certain that everything is aboveboard and reasonable and p r· o p e I" , :i. s + .. h C! f c:<t c t: t h a l:". 1:: h r:• u l U. rna t E! t E! s t 1JJa s by t he p E! o p 1 e ::i. n l:: h o (' ·i. e J. cJ t.o~J h o 1.1 !> e t. h ~ = ! t u x l.: , l:: h E! students and the teachers, and Lhe-i.r choice i s clear - cut.

Cons~: !quentJ.y, IAH~ ful1y acCE!pl: that be c a 11 s r-) ·L -1.: .1. !> i.·1 J. !> o t. he c h o "L c f!! of our OlJJnE:H' plnofessional pEH)plo who 1\Jo. IJ.6 ~-

are responsible for developing such curr•iculum. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The time for oral e lr.w s (~ d . MR. SPEr.lKER: Order, plc,1ase! questions has I would like at this stage to IAJelcome to the yallr:1d.c-)s for·ty ... four Gr·ade VII students tAJith 1.: h e t ,.. t <-:1 .:., c h r:1 r· :> , Me 1. tJ "i. n M o 1.1 J. .t. o n r:1 n d Gilbert Tulk, from Glouertown Regi.onaJ. High School . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Her..~r, he:1ar! Notices of Motion PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of lhl:?.

Minister of Consumer Affairs and Cornmuni.cati.ons I g"i.ve nol'i.cc~ 1-:h.:,,'l':. I will on tomorrow ask leave to "i. n +:. r o d 1 J c e a b t ll e n t i. 17. l. r:1 d , 11 () n (.l c ·1.·. To Revise And Consolidate The LatAJ Respecting Tenr:1ncies OF RE!S:idential Pr·~~mises. 11 SOMF HON. MfMRERS: H c:1 (:\ r· , h t:1 .:~ r· ! Mf~. :3IMMS: Min, ~:ipE~akE:H'. ~ R_:.-J~ F. A ~E ~-: The hon. t:he Pr·c~sJdc,,nt of t:hC:! Council. MR. SIMMS: L2487 May 31, 1988 Vol XL Mr.

Speaker, on behalf of the Minister of Finance I gi u E! notice that I will on tomorrow move th-at dll:1 H o u s e:1 r e s o 1 v e it s e 1 f i n to a Committee of the Whol& to consider c e r· t i:l i. n r E~ s o 1 u l·: i o n s r· e 1 a t. :i n g l o the raising of loans by the P r· o tJ 'i. n c e , a n d I g i. v e a f u r· 1":. h c,1 r· notice that I will on tomorrow tno v E-) 1: h n t t 1·1 t:' 1·1 o 1-1 s c~ r o so 1 v e J. t: s E! l·f=' into a Committee of the Whole on s 1.1 p p l.y 1·: o c o n s J. d 1'::1 r c E!

I" t. i:~ ".i. n r e s o·J. u t i o n s for t h e g r a n t i n g of Sup pl. omen 1:. a r· y ~1 11 p pl. 1J 1.: o HE:! r· Majesty. Answers to Questions for which Notice has been Given MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Career D e tJ (,~ l o p m E! n t C:ll'l d A d v a n c E:! cJ S 1'.: u cJ i El s . MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would just like to inform hon. me rn b e r· s , a s a r· e s u 1 t of cl q u e s t i o n by the mE!mbE!r for Bonav] sta North yesterday, that I haue been checking :j,.nto the concE1rn -·I do not want to bring forward the name of the particular studE!nt.

I th011ght i::l.t the t"i.ITH~, IAJ'i. t:h t.he question as kE!d by the hon. mE:!rnbE!r, l: h c:l i.: L h r::! t' c~ IAJ (:1 r· e p r· o b l. e 1 n :; d 'i r· 1::1 c t l. y related to the bankruptcy of H C.'lr' b t n 9 e r· S c h o o l. . B u l: , u p o n checking, I found Lhat the:• ~;t.tldonl : , .i.n (:1:;~;enco, IAJ:i. t.hdr·etAJ twelve weeks afler entering lhe pi"O<.!Jt'(:,mme For· per·sonc:ll r·c~a~;ons. Indeed, the student d~i.d hi:'lVE! a ~; I'. II de 1'1 i·. 1. () 1:-\ n 0 r $ 5 1 2 5 () , ·r h (! sttAdent paid $3,350 in t:uJt:ion FE!r,~:> t.o HHI"b:i. ng(;!r'. ;:>·incc:! ~;hE:! only complc~tE!d twelVE!

IAJE:~eks of U·w course, the tuiLion feo directly OlAJed arnountE!d to $1,603. 53. F1norn what we can determine, Harbinger should have rE!fundE!d $1, 74·6. 4·7. to No. 46 R2487

the student. However, it is our unc:I(:H'standi.ng t.: hi:> arnounl : 1~1as I'H:W E:l r r· €1 f !Hl d e d , e v e n thou g h t h e yectr end reporl of the school indicatE.~d to ou1" department that I.JH~ cHn o u n t I·H·u:l b e e n p a i d . T h e studEHd~, as IAI(:1ll, is c~HrtitlE!d to $840.00 in deferred provincial gl"cHrts IAJhich can be appl ·iE:1d and IJJ.i ll. b e "' p p l "i. o d l o r· E:1 d 1.1 c C:! L h E:1 anrount of thE! Canada Student Loan from $5,250 to $4,410.

So the stalus is, yc,1s, the s t.udent did receive a Canada Student Loan for $5,250, paid $3,350 to Harbinger School of Business, received training valued at $1,603.53, and had $1,900 for personal expenses while a student. By L he I.•Ja y , s h l':1 lh d r· ~~ c e .i v (:1 l h a L . Ther'E! u1as some question yeste1"day a s to 1.1.1 h t1 l:: h l;! r· o r· no t·. l:. h {'! s -l: 1 ~ d e n L: actually dtd get hE!r' hands on any rnonE!IJ ~-ll:: dll, bui: t: her·c~1 IAJa~; $1.,900 that sh(:1 did ac -tually receive.

S h e "i. s H l i g i b 1 (:1 t o h c.w e +: h c\ t 1 o <.-Hl reduced by $84-0 unde1n the deferred g r i~ n t l: h r o 1.1 g h . s 1-. 1 1 c:1 e n t •'\ 1. c1 , d n cl , l guess, is considered to be in c InC! d j_ 1.: 0 r OIAI~~ c:1 $:1. I '7 '1-G ' ''· 7 b lj Harbinger School of Business. T h c'l. t i. S t h e :;:i. t. II d 1.: i. 0 n t1 0 IAI . [ Mil pursuing it a bit further about h c:! r· p <:H' t i. c 111. a r c a s E! • b u i·. a s t•.H,1ll to try to dt~h1rmine how many ot.h<:!r's l:hc,1r·c~1 dr'c;! IAJho rn:i.ght b~~ i.n thE! sam(;! boat. MR. SPEAI<El~: The hon . the Minister of Education . MR.

HEARN : Thank you, Mr. Speaker . l have thE! an s IAJe r t. o a quest]. on f r o rn t. h e h o n . L: h e m o 1 n b c:! r· f~ o r· t. h 1::1 Str·ait of BeJ.lE! IslE! (Mr. Dc:!cker) . l·IOIAI rnany p~~opl.e dr·~~ CUinl"E!ntly lAIOI"idng · in rny offiCE! _and so on? l h c~ c:Hl s IAHH' ]. s +: l·w ~H' , l·.:tAJO secretar ·iHs, · and an executiVE! L 2 '~8 8 Mr:--tlj 3 1. 1 1 9 H 8 lJol XI. -~------ ------ assistant. One was appointed by 0 r d e r· · ·i n-·co u n c: J 1., 1: h o c,1 x e c u tJ. v e assistant. Both secritari~s are C c:·l r· 0 H r' p II b l. i.

C ~) 0 r \) d l'l i'.: ~; IAJ:i. l: h eighl::eE!n YE!ars i'.Hid thirteE!rl yc.;!ar·s r t~ s pI-) c 1.: ·i. v e 1. y . T h E:11J IAI e I"<,~ t. h f.:! I" o long before I came and undoubtedly will be there long after I ex i t. MR. r~. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : The hon. t:.hc,1 MinislcH' of For(~st RE!SOurces. MR. R .· AYLWARD: M r . S p (:1 ak r:1 r , y E~ s 't. E! r· day thE! h on . the member for the Strait of Belle IslE! asbH~ m~:! i.-l question on l:he hiring of forest fires in the RoddicL:on area.

I have a few notes here, just to inform the hon. mernb~~'"· Ei:·lch r'E~g:J.on cleci.cl!:•s when thE! foJnE!St firE!S arE! to be h "i. I" c:! d o n . I 1:: d c~ p c:! n d :; E! n 1.: i r· 1::1 1 y o n the WE!a"lher conditions in that r:-lrCo1CI. r:lN HOI\I. MF.MBER : Fi refig hte r· s -~ MR. R. AYLWARD: f o r· o !> L f i r e f i g h t. (:1 r· !; ? Whc.·\t d-i.d I say? AN HON. MEMBER: Fo1"est fir·c,1s . MR. R. AYLW.ARD: I <:,11n son· y about t: hat . The d at e t hE! y a r e hi r E! d , M r· . Speaker, depends on L:he weather conditions in thE! al"E!a .

WE! have some indicaLions there is still SnOIAI in SOlliE! of t:hE! IAIOOdS ar·ouncl r~oddJct:on. ~)o 'i.-1. is not:-. Cl"] . l:::J.cal IAIE! hir'E! thE~ITI on nouJ. W!i:1 IAICll'l-1:: to I fl i:l !< e ~; I II"(! IJ.J e h i·l U ~~ Cc1 n 0 l.l q h t.: "i JTI e a ·t. l:hE! E!nd of l!'J(:1 season becausE:! in the Northern secLion of our Province, · ar·ound SE:1pternber and 1\J o . II.() R211-8 8

- ~·- · -.o.J-.~ow.N ... ,.. ......._.j .l-... --.~-.._, , _ - .. - -~-.• -~...._ .._... __ , .,. ~• - ----· · -- - ·• .. _ -~ - ---w __ ._._,,,,.. ... _ ... ~ ---- ~- -·--·--- - · -- · --• --__. •-·- -·•••-----· Labour Day WE!E:1kend, we often haue what we consider a fire hazard area. It t~o.Jas rnent'.iom1d there~ was a f:ir·e l.n 1986 be!fore tAJe had our people hi t' e d o n and t hat i s c o t' r 1::1 c t , M r . Speaker. But the day the fire oc c urr't::H:J, our· p(:H'rnanent s tnff and people we hired that day put the f "i. t' 1::1 o u t .

T h c-:1 f i. r (;:1 o c c u n· ~~ d f r· o rn the operations of a sawmill at the l'.:'i.m<:1 t.vhi.ch 1~o.1as burning Si:\V.U:IItsl: dnd it got into a small cutover. When '.i.t hit: th<-:1 Sl'lOlA.I Jn t. hc~ IAIOOdS, Mr. Spt::1aker, it. went out fair·ly qtlickly. I n t h e h i. ~• t'. o r· 1J of h :J. r· i n g .i. n t h H l: an1a, Mr·. SpE.~Ciker·, in 1984 ·, June '1.8; 1.913':), J11ne :?.6; 1.9H6, May 28; and 1987, May 27. Mr. Speaker, f·.: hiS y e i'\ r IAJ(~ IA.IJ.J."J. h d I) (:1 'l: hI::! Ill 0 1'1 i:\ l: 1east by Jt..II'H:1 15, and if l'l(:!C(:!SSdi"Y, befo1ne thdt. Petitions MR. GILBERT: Mr. Speaker·.

MR. SPEAKER: ThE1 hon. the mE1rnber for Burg eo - Bay d'Espolr·. MR. GILBF.RT: Mt". Spea 1«-H', I have f' r' 0 m liJ.O In ~:1 s :i. d <-:1 n 1.: s Ramer.l, GI"BY RiVE!r' and '"i. 1.-. t ~; c o n c or' n i. n g i-:. he I v.Jould lJ b~ to l"ec.td 1'1 OIAI. 11 To th~~ Hon. HoUSEl of P r:\ r· l j, t:·\ rn (~ n 1-. A :> s c'.~ m b l. <:1 d : a peU.tion of Bur·gc~o, Francois and !3 Lll" g (! 0 R 0 i:Hl . the pE1tition 11 'The poL"i. ·t.'i.on of l.:he uncler·~;Jgned r·esiclc ,l rd.s of Ci:.tnadf..l who now ava:iJ. l: he 111 s ~~ l

I) e s of the i. r· 1:·1 n c '.i u n t !.'\ n d undoubhH~ r·ight: thus to present a grievance common to your L2489 May 31, 1988 Vol XL petitioners in the certain assur·ance that your· Honourable House will therefore ·provide · a · r•e:1mE1dy. 11 The prayer is this: "WHEf,EAS thE1 BurgE!O Road has r~~ceivt: 1d no upgr'r:\dlng or· pdv-:ing :in the past three years, and "WHEREAS the1 Burgee Road l. o n <.:ro G t c o n t. i. n u o u s g r· <.·\ v 1::1 l Newfoundland, and; is the road ·t n "WHEREAS the towns of BUJngeo ancl l~atnea r:lr'e con ·l:r·-i.btl"i:.:i.ng grec:ttly Lo the _ e:1conorny of this Province"! thr·o119h i·. hE:1ir· pr·Jrnr.·\l"Y -:i.ndust.:l"y, and; "WHEREAS the cost of living and c r:1 r· i" y ·i. n g o n <:1 n t <-:1 r· p r· J s e "i. n o u r· totAJns is significantJ.y h:ighE1r dtH1 t. o +:. h e i n r:1 d E:1 q 11 a c y of L h <'! p r' e s E:1 n t road system; 11 THEREFORE: We:1, th<:1 under•signed, petition the Government of N(:1WfOLindl.and and Labr·ador to begin a programme immediately to upgrade and pc:we thE:1 Burg~w Road.

WE! iH'El disgusted with the poli ·tical garrH::1S being played and wish only to have our transportation problems c:\ll.ev:ic:ltEld. Th:is wi.ll r·~~t~ul!':. :in improvements in the economy of our C\ r· c,1 r:·\ t h r· o 1.1 g h -.i. n c r· ~~ r)\ s E~ d 1:·. o u r· :i s 111 , more high quality fish products bt~1ing pr<,1pi:\l"<-:ld /'t('ll"<-:1 and i:ln increase in the service sector. () l J of ~~~ h '.'i. c h !A! "i. ll .i n c r· e a ~; (:1 employment levels and generate (~IJ(~rJ lrtOI''(l l:.i:\X clol.l.dl":;. 11 WE1 c~S b~d only to be tl"eateci fdi.r·ly ;:·\ nd IJ.ri. i:h J"espe c l.: and dignity." Mr".

SpE1aker, thJs :is a pEd:i . Lion I j u s t h d p p (:! n (l cl t o h a I) <:1 r· c~1 c c:~ oi. v ('! d i:'l n d it is Vt1ry fitting today I should p r· e ~> lc:1 n t t h i. :; 'i. n 1; 'i. f:!IAI of l h <:1 f d c t No. 46 R2489

we havE:~ j u~t gotten anot.hc-:~r t:oa:>i7. to the pork barrelling handed out by the Department of Transpor·{alion. We ar·c-:~ now down · t: o t: h e p o t n l ~~~ h c-:~ r· E:~ t h o rn :i. n :i. ~> L c~ l" has given out approximately $29 rni.ll i. on of t·: h c"~ p r· o tJ "i. n c J. r:'\ l. r· o i:·u:l rno nc-?.y f Ol" this y E:1i:H'. So thEH'B is i:'l. b o u i:. i.'l no ·1.: h n r· $ 1 l rn :i J. l "i. o n l e f 1.: l~ o I:H"~ dispens<-:~d in the sys·t·~em thE! minister has become so experl in.

Ot.lt of this pr·otJi.nci.al. monE~y, I wo u 1 d s a y , for t he 1 a s t t h r e e years thc-:~1"e has not bE:H"Hl orw CE!nt out of the $120 million spent in the last. thrE:H:~ years · this :is the:~ fourth year now - not one cent of ·this provincial mont~Y has been spent on the Burgeo Road. As the people from Bur9eo and Ramea told the minister whE!n they h a d t. h (!! rn E:~ f:~ h i n g IAJ"i. t h h "i HI "'i. n D E!! ~H' Lake, they really did . not ElXpect h "i. rn to t a k e co?. v e r· y c e n t of t h <-:~ $ 4·0 million e~nd put it on the Burgeo Road, or 80 percent of it.

They sai.d r.t rc"~asoni.·\bJ.e fi.gure IAIOUld bE~ SOrTIE~· th':ing likE:1 5 percent: o f i t o n i:\ n -r., n n 1 1 r:l J. b i~ s :i. s , IJJ h i. c h would pave four or , five kilometres a y e rH' . E tJ e n t u a l. l. y , IJJ I'Ho! n t h e sE:~condary r·oi.'l.ds agt"eement was s .L g rHo! d '"'ri. +: h t h e f ~'' d e r· a J. goveniiTIE~nt, they would then be in n po~;it:-i.on +.:o hHtJ(~ Lhe r·oad finished in a very shor'l: time. Who.t he~s happenE!d now is IJJe have had t h i. s fa rn i. n e for t h ~~ l i.H> 1':. f o 1.1 r• yE:1ars 1.11hen it comes to paving on the Bur9eo Road.

With 'l:he $11 million left, I think it IAIOUld bEl only fitt:i.ng l'lOIAJ 'if the~ ! rni.nist.el" dE!Cided he would do the right and honourablE?. th.i.ng and t.hl':~ fi:itJ.r thing and say to the people of Burgeo, if thc"'Y hi:ld 90tt<~n thc:li.r· r'ights, they would have had at least $8 million spent on their road over the last four years . L21J.90 Mi:ty 31., 19138 lJol XL 0111: of i:his rH:~x-1: $1.1 milLion coming, I would expect it to bEl a tH~ r y s h o r t l. i. s l: 1.1J:i. t h · $ 8 · m i 11 i -d n - being put into the Burgeo Road .

Thr.tt IA)OIIld bE:~ rdtr· iHlcl IAJOl.lld ensure this road is looked after. As the rnin:is·ler is aiJJaln(':!, I arn s 1 1 r· ("1 , :i. 1.: J !> I·~ h <:l l o n 9 (o! ~> l': c o n t i n u o 1.1 s gravel road in the Newfoundland, i:tnd thE! conl~r:i.bui':. ion !Tldclo by thE! 6,000 taxpayers who live in Bur•g·eo, Rcunei~, Gr·c-:~y Ri.vc"~r and Francois is significant as far as thi.s Prov:i.ncc"~ i.s COI'lCElr·m~cl. It.

J.s only fair they gE!t a return for t:he l'.:i'lX dollar·s th<:~Y i:H'e contributing to improving the economy of this Province through their working in the fish pJ.ant, catching Fish and processing ':it. I was in Francois over the weekend dnd one of th~:! Jlli!l:i.n concElt'I"'S of the people in Francois, who are no I~ d :i. r· e c l: l. y h o o lw d u p t o l: h E:1 road, but the question they ask y 0 ll i:lll. l: h (~ t i.liH!!

J S : H OIAl C 0 I'IW there has not been any money spent on t: h El B 1 J r g eo R o '" d 1~.1 ~HHl IAH:l h a v c;, a government that can spend $22.5 rn:i.ll.Jon on a lt9ht: "i.n t-.h<o! sky, not a pie in the sky, Cl light :in the s I< y in Mo 11 n 1.: P e c\ r·l. 1.11h t 1 I':~ JJJE:1 , hE! r· e in Fl"ancois, Grey River·, RatnEla otn B 1.1 r· g e o , h ;:·\ v (:~ no 1.: g o L ['I d <~ c El n t I" o ad to drive over?

If this is pr·tor·-Lty of gov<~lnnrnent: and they could spen-t $22 million ·l:his way, 1.r.1hy, for· l:h("~ li:\st foul" year· s , ha s the government not seen fit to put one cent into psvi.ng the ~urgeo Road? For that re,ason, Mr. SpE!akE!r, thE!Y ft::H~l t.h~~Y ar·e not. being fair·ly treatE!d, and they fElel this j . s the t: :i. rn <~ f o r· t h El 9 o v e r· n rn E!l n t rn ''! n 1 b El r s oppositE! to pay atlElnt:ion to thE! plea of tho petition. Those people are dreadfuJ.ly concerned. ~heir very lives are in danger No. '1·6 H21J.90

when they have to go on this r· o ad . For t hat r e 1:1 s o n , M r . Speaker, they are asking the mtni.ster·-To no1.u mak<,1 soJn<,1 of the pl"ovincial funding avaiJ.able to go to ·!:. h (.;! B U r g E'W Road t h :i s y E:HH' , rather than wait and get up and t a 1 k a b o u ·t. a n 111 u s 'i o n a r· y secondary J"oads agr'E!ement, which se ~ Hns to be drifting fdrthE:H' and farther off because they cannot gE!t a deal '.'in pl.c:u;e to sell th~~ railway. For thJs reason they are as ldng thE:1 rn'i.n i.stE!r to nOIAl h;:we ,:, serious look at putting money into funding the Burgeo rocld. To conclude, Mr.

Speai<E-H', I only s t:-l y , a ~; i: h e FHW p 1 <-) o f B 1.1 r g e:1 o s r:-l y at H1e end of this petition, they o n l. y ;;:~ s k {': o b <~ 11 t: r· e ':" t o d f r'l t r· 1. y i.'t n d tAd l h I" e s p E:1 c t a n d d :i g n i t . y . 11 ,SOM[ HOI\J. r'1FMB F. RS : I-lOCAI", IIE:li.'ll"! MR. LU~3H: Mr·. Speaker·. MR. SPF.AKER: The hon. the member for Bonavista North. MR. LUSH: Mr.

Speaker, it is a great p r· J. v i 1 e g e d n d a g r· e:1 61 t h o no u r· t. o fully endorse and wholeheartedly s u p p or· t t hE! p 1'::1 t i U . o n p r• e s e n 'tc~! d b y my f r· i e n d a n d c o J. l e a g l.lE! , t. h E! rn e:1m b <:1 r· f o r B t.Jr' g c,1 o B c1 y d ' E ~' p o .i. r (Mr. Gilbert), a petition pr'C'!Seni':.c::!d on b~~half of const:ituc-:1nts from his district r'E!CIU<"!st'.Jng COI"r·~~cl'.Jvo r·,nd r·euH~ri"i.•:·11 i:J.cl::ion be · !::i:~ken on thE! Burgeo I~ o r:-1 c:l . T ~> 11 p p o s r,' , M r· .

S p c;! a k cc! r· , t h ~=! r· E! j s n o ·!: i::l r· o 1:1 d :i n t h e P I" o 1; .. i. n c r~ IAJ h .J. c h h i:·l ~; s o n 1 d n IJ !; u p ~~ J" J. a t :i. v e s a t. t. a c h e d t o :i '1:. a s t h E! n I I r· g f:'! () R () c:'l d . T ·1·: -i. s c e r· i.: ,,, '.'i. n J. I) () n (! of the most publicized roads in 1'. h c;! P r· o 1; "i. n c e , d n d 1'. h a t. "i. ~; C!'::11"ta:i.nly a t.r'.ibutE:1 to ·!:hE! ITIE!rrlbE:!r, . L2491. May 31, 19BB Vol. XL publicizing the conditio11 of that road. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

LUSH: I ·t has h c::t d i: h ~1 rno s t. r· e p r· l':' s E:1 n tat: .ion probably E!Ver madE! by any s-:LngJe 11!ernbe:1r in this Hou~H! f o r l'.:he Burgeo Road. Mr. SpE!aker, it is c o r· t a i n l. y d r· o ad t h a t h a s h a d I I woul~ say, more petitions p r· <,1 s <:1 n t. ~=! d i. n o n c,~ s t n f::J l. c,1 s ~1 s s 'i o n than any other

section of road in t. h e P r· o 1; i. n c e . Mr·. SpeakE!r', if the govE:1rnrnent take no action in term ~ of acquiescing to thE! l"eqUE!St of the pc,1oplc~ fr·orn t.:hi:,t·. d : i.~;+: r·i . ct, t:h("1 people from Burgeo- Bay d'Espoir, -i_L: IAI"i.ll C~)r''l.:<:,::i.nly be no I"E:~flect.:i.on o n U·H;! me rn b ~n· . SOME HON. MEMBERS : H e cH' 1 h ~~ iH' ! MR. LUSH: It will certainly be no refle c t'ion on the member but it will be a s E:1 r· 'i. o u s r· E! f 1 <"! c t t o n o n L h ~~ n E! g l ~=! c t of the provincial government. SOME HON. MEMBERS: H ~~ d r· , h e a r· ! MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, over thE!

IJE:1ars :in I"~'!CILIOSI.: i.ng go,;<,l r'nln~:! nl'.: to pr·ovJciE! the criteria they use for· lJ p g r· c:·' d .. i. n g i.'l n cl p <:1 lJ -L n q o f r· o a d s , invariably they talk about r· e ~; o 11 r· c e ~; . M r· . ~) p (,~ ,:\ k <;! r· , d g a i. n , .i r· we are talking about resources, t h t-:~ r· n ·i s no l'. ;:-' r· o a c:l i. n t: h ~=! Province that meets the r'C!\:jlli . r·oJIIE!n · l ·. ~; F'OI" t:hdi· ·. par·t. "i.c1.1lar· ar·ea rno1"e than Bur·g<;!O Bay d 1 E !; p o :i. r· , 1: h d L p r· o s p o r· o 1.1 ~ ; -r:- -i. s h ·i. n CJ i:l r E! a , M r· . S p E! a I< E! r· . T h E!

I" ~ ~ :i s n o t ' 0 c'' S 0 1'1 IAI h y i: h C! r· 0 <:·' d S h 0 I I 1 d b E! neglected any longer. 1\Jo. 46 R2491

.... .... ·~·-~--"~<- ., ~ ~ .. ~~ -.. ~ .... -----·--'"···-·-····-,. -·-.. ~·· - -- - ~ ~- - ---~ .. .. -... ~ -- ...... ~ .. - _____ , "-- ·--.~ ... _:·,,.,. ..... _______ __, -·· - - - --·--~.- ::·.:-~ -----· :. _,_. -- __ ..:;..!.. ~ _.. .. __ ,_ __ -·--·-- --- ._-- ·~·· -· ·-- -- ----··- It has been three years, Mr. Speaker, since there has been a plug nic~J~ spent on that road and 1':. h i:•\ 'l: i s 't 0 () 1 1:. () 0 1 0 1'1 9 • w h ~~ t: J. !) happening, Mr. Speclker·, is the r·o<:1d :is coni'.::inltousJ.y deteriorating. Monies that could h c\ v (~ b C! e n ~; p e n t :i. n r:\ c 0 !) 'L. E'!ff:ic:ien ·l·: mannE!I" back 'l::hi"E!E:1 yE:~i~l"S d 9 o d o C! s n 0 1:. e\ p p J.

I) L o d 1:1

I) b e c i!ll I !; ~~ -thE~ I"Oi~d :is cons:istE:HJtly and consh:-1.nl ~ l.y rlc:1 ter:i. or·r:~i.:ing 1nor·r~ tuld ruo r· E:1 . The cos l to do wo r· k on that r· 0 <:'1 d L h J s lj (:1 r:\ r· J s HI() r· e (:1 X p r:;! n s :i. l) (:1 than i.t was last yer.lr and it is 9 0 .in g 1:. 0 b ('! 1110 I'' C:! 0 X p 0 1'1 S i.

l) E! n l:1 X 'L year that· i '\: t.uouJ.d have been this y ear· • a n d s o .o n . Mr·. Spc:1ak<-H'. i.f the government i.s intent on spending money wiseJ.y, they would bE! ve:1ry pr·udE!I'l L to dct upon that road irnme!diately, to meet the reasonable request and the reasonable demands of these indus tr·i .ous, har·d1.uor·ktng pe:1opl.r:1, people, Mr. Speaker, who make thtd.r· living basically fr·o11t prosecuting the fishing industry o f t h i. s P r· o lJ i. p c c~1 . M r .

S p e a k e r . 'i t is most important the road be p r:-1 v C:! d a n d 1.1 p g r· e1 d (:1 d • or· u p g r· c:t d (:1 d and ready for paving as quickly as possi.bJ.e. I l "i. s t.IITF or· t: t.II'Jr:-1 h~ . a'l ncJ r F (~ r:' l :.or-ry fo1" thE:1 mE~rnbet" and I fEH1l s o r· r· y f o r· 1:. h f.! r· r~ s t d (~ n l s of B u r· g eo Bay d'Espoir to see no '" ll. o c ,~, l. ·.i o n o f 1- 1.1 n d s t o UJ"i. s p o i n L in t:ii'IIE! fol" one b:it of gl"ad:ing or· o n e '.i. n c h o f u p g r· ~~1 d '.'i. n q o n l. h c;! I"Oad. Mr.

Speaker, the minister cE~ r't.ainly .1.~; CliAJdl''f~ of +Jw situation and I hope when the rn ·:i. n .i. s t E~ t' s t:. a n cl s .l. n h J. s p 1. a c l~ t. o s p e a k to Ud s p e t i t i o n hE! tAd 11 bE! ab1C:1 l:o SclY sornel: :hJ.ng I.•.Jh:ich tAJil1 give some hopE! to thE! rE!S:l.dEHJts, to thc"1 taxpayc:1l"S, th(!! · hc:tr·d workers, of &urgeo- Bay d'Espoir. L2492 MRy 31., 19813 Vol XL Mr. Speaker, I was impressed with a phrC\se in tht:'lt pt?.'l::i'\: :ion, and I suppose it is more than a · phras·e, i i:. 1. ~; a s E~ n t: o n c o .

T h E!! y a s k E! d 1: o be treated with dignity and r· (~ s p o c 1: . M r· . S p e:1 ~ k o r· , t h a ·L :i. s n o t asking very much, to be treated lAd. 1:. h d '.'i. g n "i. l: y r:-1 n d r· t~ :; p r~ c: 1· .. l , L o o , pl. n r:\C:I IAJ'.i L h L h o 1 fl"i. n :i. s t e r· L o ensuJ"e that ·that is done, to ens1tt'F.!

Lhi:ll : l: he fl (:1 oplE! of Bur·gc:10 Bay ·d'EspoJ.r· and thE! pE!tiUoner·s. r"l r . s p (:1 d k l':H' I t. 0 c:l r:l y I <:1 I" 0 J n d (!! 0 d treated with dignity and r'e s pe ct:. -and l.: he rrdn"i.s l:(H' IAJOt.t ld today announce his concern by stating to 'I:Jw Tllelrlb!::H' hc~1 i.n+:. E:Hld~; to take SOrrlE! action on the road in this fiscaJ. y (?. ii\r' . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. DOYLE: M r· . S p e a I< e r· . MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the of T r· an s pori :. a L t o n . MR. DOYLE: My remarks t.uill be qui ·te brief on 1'. h 'i. s p <:1 1'.

J. i·. -i. on , b (:1 c au s (~~ I h a v ~! responded to that sarnE!! pE!tition on r•ll : 'l.t:1 (·1 !>t·. thl"(!(! or· lTir ~lybC:! four· differ'E:1nl: occas:lons OV(;~r· thE! J.a s t coltplrc! oF months dur·:J.ny lAJh'i.ch I have been Minister of T r· a n s p o r· t: a 1:. '.'i. o n . r"l r· . s p E1 '"~ k r~ r· • c:-1 ~; T h i:l v r:! 1. n d J. c i:'t t e d to the hon. ITlE!I'TlbE!r on a l'lt..HnbE·r· of d "i. F F t~ I" e n +:. o c c i:il ~; j. o n s • IAJ e • a ~; a department, are very concerned a b o l.l t. L h Co! B u r· g E~ o R o a d .

I ind .icated to hirn bE!forE! thE! reason no IAJOI"k has bE~~:!n undE:!r'Lc1ken on lhr::! BurgE!O Road in the last coupJ.E! of y E~ a r· s ·i. s IAH~ d ·:J. d n o t h a v e ·.:i. n p J. a c e a secondar·y roads agreE!HlE!nt . WE:! tAJi.ll • h OIAJe v o , .. , as I h a v ('! t:. o 1 d t. he ITIE!mber before, and again and again No. I.J.6 R2492

.. ~--·-··-- ... -.-·- --- ·-.--- - . - ....... _ ... _ -- and again ··- speaking to the member i. s s om e Ud. n g 1 i. k o t r y i n g l: o p i. c I< up Mercury with a fork, it is Vl;!r'y, vor'y d'i.ff'i.c11l.t i.ndec:1d i.:o 9~11:: th1nough l:o him we will kE,ep pushing for a greater 1euel. oF federal involvement in capital f u n d .i. n g s o t. h ~~ s (;:1 1 tH' g r"' p r' o j Co1 c t. s , likE! thE! BurgE!O f~oad, can bE' completed.

The r· e is a b so 1 u t. e l. y no IAJa y , as I have again indicated to the member on a number of different occasions, no way the provincial government can undertake an expenditure that large. It is go-t ng t,o cos l~. appr-ox :i.mr.1 t:c~ J. y $30 ·Lo $3 5 million to complete the road . 01.1 r' pro IJ i. n c :i.i'\ l. Cdpi. t<.·\ 1 pr'ogr'd.rnnw is in l:he:1 area of $40 miJ.lion. So .i. t. rn i:\ k <:1 :; i 1.: IJ t:! r' y I

I) c;, r' 1J d i. f ·f 'i. c ' 1l. 1~. :lrtcloPd to finish off cl p1"oje:1ct. Li k C'! l.:i'w B til" g eo f~ o ;;u:l lAd. L h o u 1·. ,;\I'll) fE:!d~:!l"i:lJ. :i.nvolvcoHTI~Hd .. So IAJe t..uill con l. i. n 11 E! I M r' . S p e ;:\ k E~ r' , t: o p 1.1 s h for' a secondary r'Or..'lds c!gr-eemE,nt. T. dirt ast::oundc~d SOifiE:1t .. i.mes IAJhc~n I hear' mE:Hnbers opposite stand up and t R l.

I< c:\ b o 11 1: t: h e "i. r d i. s t Y'i. c t. s . 1 f you tAJel"e a v'.isi.tor ·to the' galJ.er'y for' 1·.: h e:1 f .i. r' s t t l me you 1..uo u l d get the impression not a penny is bE:,"i.ng sp<::~nt i.n tnernbE:1rs 1 d.i.str-:ict.:s opposih1.

J u s t a s a n :i n d .i c a t t o n o r 1..u h a t. .i. s being spent in the district of B u r g e o B a y d 1 F. s p o :i r' ~w c,H' s 1. n c e this gover-nrnE,nt Look office back i n 1 9 '/ B 1 9 7 9 , y o 1.1 h a d $ ~i . 5 million spE,nt in the district of BU1"9e!O F3i::tY d 1 F.:s~>oi.r' by t.he Department of Tr~nsportation and s 0 ITI<"1 F f'! de r' r:·\1 :i. n v 0 l. v ~:!1110 n t. i:•\ s IAJe 1 J. ; :ir1 1979 1980 t_.her'E!

IAJi'..'IS $8 tWi.l'l. :i.on ~;p~~n · t. l". hc~r ' P; :i.n 19BO 1 9 8 1 , $ .1. , 1) 1:,4, 000 s p E:' n t.; :in 19 8 2 1983 1 $673 1 000; 'i.n 1983 198~~ $2~4471000; in 1984 1985, $3 I /. 6 9 I 000; i:t nd :i. n 1. 9 8 r> 1. 9 a 6 I $1.3 million, fo1" a tot~l. of $27 May 3 1 , 1. 9 1!8 \Jol. XL. mi 11 ion ever since this government took officr~ back :i.n 1979. f"ir. Spc.:16.tkl;,r, the Bur'ge:1o Road hiH; always been high on thE! l'isl: .insofr.lr as thi.s gOlH!r'I'HnE:Hlt. Js conce,rnE!d.

It has always bE,en tncl.uded Jn the departmenL 1 s J.isting to the federaJ. gOVE!lnnrnc:~nt: E! v ~~ r' s 1 n c e 1 9 7 9 I IAJ h (! n t h <"! 1 in I< L~Jc.l s completed . It has to bE! clE!i:H'1Y understood, a~; I sd:id be:1fore I HlE! Prov-ince cannot u nde rta k e a $3 2 million pt'OjE:1cl: on i.l~.s OIAJI'l . Sorne federal involvement will be l'W G E~ S S iH' y . ~:>o, ''lith these t..uor-ds, Mr'. SpeakE:1rl I conclude . I will respond to the g c:1 n 1: J. C::1 rrk\ n 1 s p c~ t j_ t. i. o n :i n IAJ r' .i 1: . .i n g when it comes to my office . Ml~.

SPEAI<F.R: n r· "-' t: he r' e d n y r 1 1 r t h r~ r' p e 1·. t 1.: "i. o n s ? 0 0 0 MR. W. CARTER: M r' . S p c-?. a k e r' . MR. SPEAI<ER : The han. the mernbE! r for TtAJ'.i.ll in g a t. lo~ . MR. W. CARTER : M r' . S p ~~a k C:H' I I b c.;~ g 1 e c:w E! , u n cl e r' the provision of Stand'.ing Order 23 1 t-.o JIIOVC:1 UH:~ cu~joul" nHIE! n l: of t hE! House to debate a matter of urgent public 'i rnpor'l:i;\nC(~ , namely l'.hE! . pressing and urgent n ee d to r't~<;\ct"i.IJdi.:( ~ the F:i. sh plant .!; J.n St .. LcUAJrencE! and Lat.~JI'l in ordE!r to r:-\ l. l.

Co~ IJ :i. r:'l 1'. e::1 t. h H s (;! r' J. o 1 J s s o c i. i:l l a n cl economic impact on the , .. ,ppr-ox i .rni·\l'.C:!l.y :;oo -r:-.i.sh plant workers and fi s hermen and their r,:HriJ . J · i,c.: ! ~) drlc:l on l'. he COlflllllll'l"i.i.: .. i es, rls a tAJholel affc"'ct~: ,cJ by LhE· :>l'llll:c:IOIAJI'l or l'.h~~ Sl:. l.. aiJ,Jr'(;!J'lC(~ iHlcl Lat..un p1iHILS; and also to debatc:1 i\1 () . II.() R21J.93

-•••• .. ·--~~-•~•'· lo ... - ._ - ••• ·-~-·, • ••••-i,.;, __ •,.,.. _., , _., • . - .... ~- ~ · .. • _ . _.,,_, , ; .••• ,•:.: .. _.:. .~ '--~ • ..,...._. •. o,',., , :_.:·.~·••'-·•·- ... ·.u~ .. ,-. ,;·,;,~.lo-o-• •• ·- -< • ·-·~•·I• ,. -• .,_,.,.. ___ •• - ·-- _ ,_._ ·---- - • the future operation of the fish pr·ocessing plants in Rose Blanche~ and Port aux Basques, owned by the s i::t m c,~ p r·-r r1 c :i. p R 1 , ~~~ h ~~ r· (~ p r· o b 1. (~ rn s appear imminent, thereby t.: h r E:~ a {~ E:~ n :l n 9 t h e c,1 c o n o rn ·i. c IJ .1. a b i J. i 1·.: 1J of the communities in question, a n d !; p f.! c "i. f :i. c c~1 1. ly l. h (:~ l.

""i. IJ E! l. i h o o d o f ctppr ·oximately 1, 000 fish plan 1: ll..r.JOY'kE!Y'S c~lnd f"i.sher'lriE!t'l. MR. !HMr'IS: Ml~ . Spea I< e1n. Ml~. SPFAI<f.R: The h o n . 1.: h c:! Counci]. MR . SIMMS: Mr. ~3pl,~r.1ke:~r, cl.t:1i~rl.y l:ho ini:EHJ"I~ of that Standing Order is to provide a n o p p o r· t u n .i. t y f o r· rn c-:~ m b r::~ r• s +: o participate in an urgent debate. I do not have to clte all the re:~ferences for Your Honour.

They have been c:i.ted rnany t.irnes bE!for·e in this particular case and I am sure Your Honour would not want to rule on a matter like this if he felt there was some serious consideration to be given ~..r.Jithout p r o b i:'l b l. y r· e c (~ s s J n 9 G\ n d r· l'! s e a r• c h "i. n 9 all the items anyway. The urgc-:lncy r·E.~ ' hH'S to the urgency of d"!bdtc~, not t hE! -j.rnpor'l :r:·1n Cl:! of t h c,~ :1 ~;sue . 0 b v :i o us 1 y t h l s mat.: t e r h d s bE! l~! n on go 'i. n 9 for· l> ornE:~ t J rn c,~ . ~3o it is not. qu:it :.E! in ·l: haL nol"rnal c d l'. ~~ g o r· 1J , c o I'' l: .:·l :-i. n J.

IJ n o t :1. n s 1 1 c h d ~;ensc,~ ills j.t shouJ.d be-:! l"UlE:~d t:hat c:\ ll. t. h (;! r' 0 S t. 0 F ·I: h (! b I I S J. 1'1 0 S S 0 !­ tho Hous e be put as:idc,~ t:o aJ.lo1..r.1 I: h -L ~> k :i. n d o f 1:1 d r.~ b a 1.: (o! l". o o c c 11 r' . I j u l; 1". l'fld k e +.: h o l> n par·+:. i c 11l i.'l r· cornmc:!n-l:.s r·ea11y, bE!Cause I think .i. L t s rn c.H' e a n i:,1 1.: t·. (o! rn p t. L o ·L: r' IJ L o score sornE! pol:i.'L"ical points rr.~·Uwr than anything else . MR. TULK: Mr . S.peake!r. L2LI·94 May 31, 1988 Vol XL MR. SPEAKER: The hon. tho member for Fogo . MR. TULK: Mr.

Speaker, I regret very much U1e:~ ~; ta t.~~me n t s mad o by t h<:1 Government House Leader "in his poJ. nl". of or·dE!r', ·t:hr.1t. t:hc:! rnetnb(o!l'' for· Twj.J.lingate i s rising jt.Jst to :; c o r' u ,;, f ~~ to~J c h ~~ .:l p p o l. :i I: ·:i. c r:·l l. p o J. n t: s or a few political points, I ·Lhink :i.s · l..r.lho~t hE! SH"i.d . II ·. "i.s not thE! rei:is·on . The truth of UH~ mr.d:tE!I" ·1 . ~;, dnd 1 r'(:~rr,~r· Yo1tr' Honour· Lo

Section 286 and 287 of Beauchesne, r:•\ :; 1.: 1'1 (C! Go\) (,H' 1'11'11('! n L H 0 1.1 s C:!. L ~ : !ad e Y' satd, I know you are wc,~ll awar'E! of l:.h·i.s rnr:-ll.:l:er·, bu+.·. fl(o!dltCh(~sne st.at.c~s the matter must be so pressing 1".: h H t p I I b l. i. C i n t c:! r• (,~ S 1: IAI :i. ll. S ll f f E! Y' if it is not giVE!n immediatE! !.·1-l:. l:E:~n t. ·.i.on. NotAl, sur·r:~ly t:h(!r'C::! J.S · no IAJay "i.n arguing if the matter of thE! cl.o~>tlr'c~~ of thE:~ those-:! fidl planb~ is not given immediate att:E!ntion, ·t h a t t h e:~ p u b l. i. c i. n t e r· E:~ s t: s 1..r.d 11 n o l: suffer.

Surely there is no way thctt you can ~rgue that ls the case. The fishing season is here . ThoSE ! plc:1nts <:1r'E! c:los(,~d. Those people have no plaCE! to sell thc:d.1n fish. T h 1;! h on . g l;! n L J. u rrtd n :i. ~; CJ 11·i L e r' .i. g h 1: under tha ·t

section to introducE:! t I·J'i. ~; . T h n 0 1·. h e Y' t: h :i. n 9 J. ~; t h C:~ !> I I b j (;! C t: must bE! bl"ought on E:~ai"1Y enough, r:·l n d p l.l b l. "i. c: ·i. n h,H' (~ :; 1-. d E! rfkll'l c:l S t·. h cd:. discussion take place :i.rnrned:i..:·\ 'l": E!l.lj '. r'lr'' ~: )pedl<or· I 1-:.hd 1.: i.s

section 287. Surely the pubJ.ic J. n l: r.=! r· ( ~ l> +·. d ('! m n n d ~ ; t h d t·:. c.·\ cl e c ""i. s ·i. o n be madE!, that this HousE!, tha · l~ +: h :-i. s g o v '~ r' n rn e n L·. I k n o IAJ L h C:! member for Grand Bank would c C:! r· t i.·\ -i. n l y a g r' e <:! t: he c 1. o s u r· e of those fish plants :in St. LaiAJY'E!I'lCC::! d eTIIiHld l> IAl"! ta I< E:~ . .1. l'lliTH~d J at. e i3. C t i 0 n in this House, because otherwise No . IJ.6 R2494

.... ..,w,_,.., __ ., ,. .• ..., _ ___ , ___ .,~u-- - -•.-,...,_._,. _,,.,. ____ , -•- .. , .. .,, •--· •• ·-•• .,..., --• •-• .,_ the f j s hi n g s E:1 a s o n t..ui 11 be o v e r i:\nd gone, i.r 1..11e cn·o goi.ng to 1..u;~dt for· Hd.s gouer·nment. to c,d ther call H1 e 11 11 d g-~~T S p ~~ c;! c h (H' t: i·H~ T h r· o n o s p ~~ E:~ c l·t to h au e r..t deb i:ll e . We are i.nt.o lc~gi.sla.t:-i.on. They t;,Ji.ll. hi:ltJl-:1 to have Meech Lake and, tJJho knows, "i. '1:. rn i g h ·1~. t. d k E:! IAI E:1 ~=! k s ii\ n d , :i. n d e e d 'i. f this House stays open, even tnonths.

Wc"1 could bf! inl:o July and t h o s e f i s h p 1 ant s wo u 1 d s t i 11 bE! closed if tAle are going to t;,Ja i.t to see what is happening. So I M r . S p c,~ a k e r· I i. t 1. s c r· i 1:. "i. c a l . The u r g !Ut c y of d e bate c a n no t be deni.ed herl,1. It must bE:1 dorH:~ today and done immediately. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hl"~dr 1 hE~ar! M f~ . S P U~. K E R ( M c N i. c h o J. d2.l : Ot"dE:~t", pJ E:!asc,!! T Htrt pr·~:~ p~1 r·c~d l'.o d 0~11 '"ri l": h l~h 'i. ~; ma tler· notAl. 1 would 1 i I< e to point otJ L tha l:, nt.llnbE:H' onE:1, Lhc:! moti.on :i.S out of Ot"dc·:'!r'.

I wouJ.d refer h on . trtf:1rnb E:H' s Lo our· S tcu1d -L n g Or·rl ,,H' 23, SE!tt.ion (

f) subsr:1ctlon (2): 1 1\Jol.: ntor·o thi:l ri onc:1 rnat:i'.r::!t' Cc·ln be distussed on the same motion. 1 Thl"1 hon. rnemb1::1r has pr·opoSC::1d tt;,JO rnat·l:C::!r·s hC::H'e. Sr:1condl.y 1 I would li. lu:! +:o qtwb::! f r· om B e a u c he s n E! , t he o n E! t he h o n . rn e ITI b E! r· q u o l'.·. r:~ d , S E:1 c t. i o n 2 8 'l o n p a q e 92: 111 Urgency 11 tJ.tithin tl'd.s rule doE:1S not apply to UH~ rnatl:.1::1r :itself, but IT!E'EHlS 11 urgE1ncy of cl<,1bal:e 11 1 • As hon. rn(,1trttHn·s knot.•.l, therE:1 arE! opportunities 011 thE!

Ot"ciC::H' Papi::H' to dec:'ll tJJ.i.l::h +:he::1 mattE! r· , the Add res s in R E! p 1 y and t. h <~ Budge 1: S p u ~~ c h . T h ~~ rtld L t e r· is not in ordE'r. Orders of the Day 1.21~91) lJ o l X 1 .. MR. TULK: Mr·. ~1per.lk<·H', just poi.n l.: of clarification . AN HON. MEMBER: You i:lr·~~ que::1s'i'·.'lon:i.n9 th~=! SpE!akc;!Y' 1 S ruling? MR. TULK: No, no, I am nol~. quE~st .. i.on'inq l":.he Speaker - MR. SPEAKER: Th1::1 hon. the mernbE!r for Fogo. MR. TULK: ..: jusi: : l:hE! fclcl: . t..hat Your Honour ruled there were t.wo mattE!rS hE!rE! l~.o b<,1 debated.

Thl;! tr·ul'.:h of thE! matter is we are talking about one company here anrl the specifics are two or thre!e fish plants OIAtnE!Cl by Uli-l L 01'1("1 COI'tlpi:HlY. AN HON. MEMBEr~: '( 0 I I iH' f:1 0 1.1 '1:'. 0 f 0 r• d EH' . r.IJR. TULK: I am not - questioning him, I ~m j 11 :> 1'. p o ·i. n t: ott l L o h :i.trt i: hat i:. h "i. !; -L s thE:1 case, that indeed thE!Ine L~tas 110 r'E:1r:'lson J do not be1i<:1 Ve 1".0 1"ulr::1 him out of order on that point. MR. SIMMS: Order 121 Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Or·der 12 . The hon. l:hl:1 has six minut:es MR. FENWICK: S:i.x rn.inutE!S? MR.

SPErlKER: ---------·--Yes . rrt (,1JTI b E:! r· ] E!ft. For· Menihr:1k Tho hon. the rnE:!rrtber· fot" Men:i.hE:!k . MR. FENWICK: Thank you very much, M~ . Speaker . 1\Jo. 11.6 r~ 211.9 5

I just want to sort of summarize a few comments. Qui.te fr·ankly, i .t is interesting that during Quest.-i.on -veri .od and i.n t'~::1sponsf~ t.o questions asked yesterday - MR. TULI<: 0 n 1:1 p o J n l o f o r· d e r , M r . S p e a k (;H' • MR. ~1PUli<EI~: Ordc·H', pleaS(;1l (l p o j_ n t. o f o r r:l e r· I 1.: h <:1 h o n . 1-: h c,1 lliE:HIIbE:1r for· Fogo. I'-1R . . TUI .. K: Ml". ~3pE:1aker·, befcH'C->. the Govc,1rnrnenl Hoi.IS<·~ l. oadc;!r' l(~c:·\lJC:1~;, r I;JOIIl.d J.·i.kn to br·Jng something to hts c\ 1:: 1.: e n 1'. :i. o n I "i.

F [ lflt"l y a n cl h e -.i. ~; l:i.stf~ning ·-and that Js the matter IAJe jusl: bro1~ghl:. up IAJC'! b~:~lJc,1lJE:1 'i.s ur·gent C~nd I lAJould ask him no!AJ if he would flrst cdll elther the Budget SpeE:1ch or any other· motion or b lJ.l on the 0 r· d E:H' P a p EH' to discuss this matter in St. LcUJJr•ence:1, Por·t aux Basqucc1S, Rose Blanche and so on? MR. SPEAKER: 0 r· d 1::1 r , p 1 ~;:1 iH 1::1 ! MR. SIMMS: No , r"l r· . S pea k EH' . WE! h i:W 1:~ r:-1.1 r· o ad y called the Orders of the Day. MR. TULK : Oh! St. L. i~IA.IY'E:~I'lCE:1 is 11 () ·[: :i.lnp<H'lt!lnt, i.s i.l.:.

MR. ~3JI'-1r'IS : To ·H1 cl.l s am e p o :in t . The h on . . liiE!iflbc;!r'~' iH'C:! cl.t~cH' l.y c:lo i ng Ol'lC:1 ' +:h:j ng, Ml". SpCc!c~kc,1r, t.l'·y:i ng to pl.ay p o 1 t t :i. c s i:\ n cl not h :i. n g ('! J. s E:! , no 1··. h -:i. n g TT101"(:1' MR. Tl.l LK : Oh SL/1"(,1 ! MR. SIMMS : There are opportunities. WE! had L2496 May 31, 19 8 8 Vol XL thirty today. on St. minutes of Question Period Where were the questions Lawrence? MR. LONG: Rtght here. MR. TULJ<: lU.ght dOIAIJ'l ther·e. MR. SIMMS: 1\Jone. I rest my case, Mr. Speaker . Ml~. SPF~KE:l~: Order, please! There is no point of order.

The hon. the member for Menihek . MR. FENWICK: T h c;! a n s IAJ f~ r· 1:. o · 1':. h o Go v E'! r· n 1 n e n t H o u s (;! Leader's question, although :H: is rhetorical, 1 s that questions on the St. LawrencE! plant and thE! Port aux Basques one did come today, and they came from us . WE! asked lAJ~H~r·o FPI lAJas, becc:wse Lhey are the origin of the who1e p r· o b 1 e 111 d OlAJI'l t. her· o . SOME HON. MEMBERS: HE~i:lr, hear! MR.

FENWICK: H OIJ,)C,1lJ ('! r· I rJtr· ' talking about r• "i, g ht. i'lOIAJ, summarizE~ the ~3poakc;!r', private T j u !; L cornniE!nts IAI E~ i'l T' E!! :;chooJ.s lkk't n 1.: t. o I rnado y E~ ~; i". 0 r· d r:•\ y I !) j_ n c (-~ :r , .. _ h ·i n k t. h E!! y a 1" (;! appl"opr·:iatE!. Dur·ing the quE!S'L:ion Pr'!t'i.t)d r:tnd Lhe r·e s ponse s in QUE!Stion Pt::1r·:iod OVE:11n thE:1 last COiifll.lc! Or cir:-lyS 01'1 thl:' fr'l"i.lLII"'f'! of the Har·bingE:1r School., I th:i.nk, h i. t.!J h 1 t g h 1:. e cl t: h t~ n e u d f. o 1" t:. h j_ s lE!g:isJ.ation.

And the ciE:!taJ.J.s thE! lll "i. n :i. !> t e r· p r· o lJ :-i. d e d t: o d a y ''' l. s o g i:'.t u e us an insight into sorne of the IAJO f' S (~ i.•\ b 1.1 S e S 0 f t: h (! p T' i V i.·l t E! S C h 0 01 system. Of courSE!, thE! fact that 1\J 0 , IJ.6 R2496

thE:1 minister· confirmed that indeed the t:ui li.on fee al: th'i.s ins t.i ·tution IAIClS $3,500, and I d s s u 1 n e '1:11 i:1l'. IAJr:-1 s i:l o n o y <HH' c o 11 r· :i e , or· a n j n ~~ rno n l h co u r· s c:1 , or· ton fllO n i: h :; I s 0Hll,1 t hi. rHj () r 1: h .:.J. 1: du1"abon, :i.nd :icatE:1s thc-:l hardship t. h o s ('! :i. n d "L IJ ·J. d 1.1 r'l J. s l: u d t'! n 1·:. s h "' u o t·. o go ·t.hi"Ough once thc:1y C:Hllnoll in par· t i c u l a r· c o u r· s (,, s l i. k c:1 l h t :; .

I ·F they hi:ld gone ·l:o a public institution, like the Cabot Institute or any of the other cornmun i. ty collegc:1s in the Province, to take thE! same coursE! o v e r· t h a t p e r ·i o d of t :l me , t he tuition fee wo u 1 d be , I bE~ 1 i eve , around $500. So we at'f:! tal!d.ng, in this instance, of a tuibon fE!e that is seven U.rnc:1s t.hc:1 r:lmount: charged by the particular public instit:ut:ions. f:) o , t.: h f~ q u e s t -j o n y o 1.1 h r:11J f~ :J. s , W h y IAioulcl an ind'ivldual student go to d p r· i. v a 1:: c:1 j . n s t ...

J. i-.11 L :i. o n i r p 11 b 1 'i. c :i n s tit uti on s !Ale r e a v a i 1 a b 1 e? The iHISidE:1r, of cour·se, l:ies :in the f"' C t i: h r'l L 1110 :; i: 0 f 1'. hI~ p II b 1.1. C :inst.:ituU.ons, l:i.ke the Cclbot T. 1'1\) L II 1'. i. 1·. n i:Hfd t h Co1 <: 0 Ill Hill n tty colleges, are blocked with s t u d l~ n t s 1'1 0111; 1··. h r~ y h r:l IJ (;1 bJC1-i. 1'. ·i 119 JiGts now, in some instances, r· H qui. r· J n g poop 1 c,1 l: o IAii:-1 :i t .:-1. y lo1 d r· or· two.

And if ind:i vidua1 stt~dents are not wi.ll i ng to put i:hoi.r J.ivos on hold for· that pc.;!r·iod of t'imE~, thE!Y go and takE! th~~lr· chances on a private education rather than, q u 'it E! f r· an k 1 y , IAii:l "i. t. :in g iii y E~ 1:1 r· or whatever would be required. The other thing that should be n o t.

E! d i n t: h d 1~. p a r· t. ·i c 1.1l a r· E! x c h a n g o from the minister was that the Jnd :i.v-Ldu~·\l no1AJ .i~> ot•Jod $1,700, or· $:1.,700 !Alas takNI to pay for the f 'i. r· s l i:.IAH:! l. v ~=! t~H,1l:! k s 1 l:! ducat. :ion . () s the minister d:icl not Table the documetTI'., T i:'lnl not sur·l~ !':.hal·.: I hc.~ve all the dwl:a:i ls cor·rc::1ct. I_.?. '1·9 7 MHIJ 31., l91lll Vol XL. But, it seems to rne, that ·that is i J.l. II S i : t• r.\ f: -j.

I) c,~ of •~1hat l..r-IE! ar·e talking about here. If tu.1el1JE! IW:1c:1k!> uf C:!diiC.:tl.:i.on co~;Ls ~~1,700, that is $140 a week that is b(,dng chat'9f)d by l:.hr~~ ; e 'ins ·l·.i.t:IJt:"i.ons in order to do the education they are :-i. n IJ o l. IJ r-:! d lAd 1·: h , i:1 n d 1·:. h r:1 1:. c 1 ~~ <:·1 r· J. 1J . .i. s a ho1n1nendous surn to haVE! t:o pay f' 0 In r:·1 1'1 (,1 d U C r:'l 1:. J 0 1'1 "i. 1'1 0 t• d (,1 r• t. 0 g ("!

C. into our workforce either as a socretary, which t understand is the course involVE!d hE!rE!, or into comp1.1t.er· pr·ogr'c:.\lllln.i.ng or· any of lhe other courses involVE!d here. So I thi.nk that 1s r:'.lnot.h~::1r' examplE! of the problems involved with it . And, of course, pr·obh11ns, IAih'.ich addressed by the one of the ha~; nev(,1r' minister or othE~r b~:! E! n this g o tJ l~ r· n HI f~ n t. o r· i':l n y o n f~ <.;! 1: s c"! , .i s h o IAI do you fJ.nanCE! an E!duca·t:ion l<ik(~· 1:: h d +:. l. f y o 11 h d IJ c~ d n y ,:,1 d d .i l:·. -L o n a l expenses to meet? Because :i. n d :i.

IJ i <:111 .:-1 l s go J n g to L hE! p r· 'i. v i:'l t. E! intitutions rE!ally have to cornrni"L nol: only ·l:h<"! sl:l.ldl~nl: loan l·: hey draw but any student gr·ants thE!Y hr:liJC!; l.:he l~lholt,1 1~101"!<:; J.!; usod up in '\:u:ition fees. And if the"! 'i. n d i IJ ·i. r:l u r.1 l ~; d r· 1;1 n o 1: s 1 1 p p o I" +.·. ~=~ d r:l t home or have a part·-timE! job Ol" s o HH:1 o t h c,n· s o 1 1 r· c E! of i. n c o 111(,1 , q u i t: r:1 frankly they find it very d :i.

F f -:i. c 1 1 l 1.: t. o b C:! a b l. o +.: o c o rn p 1. l:! 1':. e their training and be able to live i. n C1 h <:·11 f' d e C (~ 1'1 t HI r!1 1'1 n (;! t' 1.~1 h :.i. J. E~ training is going on. So, to summarize, IAIC:1 bE!1J.E!VE! the publ.i.c "i.nst.:itul:.tons, l.ik~1 thE!

Cabot Institute and thE! community coll.~~g~~s. should ~wov<icl~::1 the courses required to tr·atn OUI" p (,1 o p l (,1 , a n d 1:: h c1 t L h l~ r· o a s o n a b 1 e expectations of the youth of our Pr·ov ·i.ncr:! shol .tl.cl b('! rnf:!t :i.n these institutions, and that thero ~; h o 111 d no 1':. b f~ '"'a i. t i. n g l .i ~; L s o-r:- inordinate lengths so that they r:1 r· o f o r· c e d L o g o -L n t: o p r· :i. v i:'l 1:. t1 institutions to receive their 1\Jo. '1·6 ~~ 211.9 7

... -: .. _,_:,.... . ~_. _ ...;,.:. . ---·-, _____ ... ' ·•---' • _·,-:_,-...... ' .,_- ~-··- ---· ...... : ...... -···- ·- ··--·' -~ -·,_,., _-: ... -.: .~- .• :.:.::. .:_ ~ ...... ·-·-----J .... ~·- ~- ,_,: .. "1...: ;--~l;c-_...__ .. . . education. position.

If Tha·t a is lot our main of these t n s t 'i.i~. uti. on s spring ·.L n g up , 1. t~. ..1. s a sign of disorder in the public e d u c i:t t i o n s y s t ern a n d ·i. 1: s h o u l. d b e:~ responded to by increasing the numbet· of ~;eats, pul:l:i.ng :in t-t d d i ·U o n a 1 c o lH' s E! s , e u e n if t hey at' e on a tempo r t:t r· y bas J s , t n or· d (~ r· to accommodate the kind of bulge that: occurs. flE:~cause:1, Mr·. Spc,~Hkc-:H', on(~~ of tho CUI"iOUS things, a;, E!UE!I"ybody k-nObJ!), r~\bou·l~ Ol.lt' (~dUCr:-lL.i.on Slj!)i:OI'Il j ~; that. thE:~ number· of stt~dents lAW h '"

l) r,~ L o cl C:H'I l IAri. l: h ·i. s ·1:. t' (~Hn r:Hl!:l o 1.1 s J. y VCII"j E:~d ·- one yE~ar· we nd.ght hauc-:~ a corl.:d·i.n numbE:~r· or sl:1.1deni·:s, t.he 11ext ye~al" IAJE! may havE~ rnor'(-:'! g r· a d u .:. Lt-:! s t-. o d e "' l lAd I: h , ·1·: IH~ n ~~ x t y~~ar· ITiiHlY moi"E:~ and the yet'lr after· t. hi:\ 1: l: hoy 111 i:-1 y d r· o p i:'l g a 'i. n ; t: h (~~ r· E:~ :i. ~; a variable list to it which is q u .i t (:~ p r· o n o 1.1 n c t::~ d .

I n d e (:~ d , 1..11 h f;! n one looks at the statistics of student:> gr·aduat.'i.ng, on(,~ s~~es that. planning for secondary education like-?. t:h .i.s '.l.s a majot· challenge because we are looking at graduating classes wh'i.ch are becoming smaller and smaller as each yE:~iH' progt·r::~ssc-:~s. HOIAJ l.o~Je accommodate these students is a v e t' y 1. iH' g ~~ q u ~~ s t i. o n t h a t h H s l:: o ~H~ addrE!S sed.

Of course, onE! of the c:·ldVr'\rlt'.dgr~S IAIO hdlJ(~~ J.s 1-.:hat OUr particJpation rate now in p () s 1·.: - s e c 0 n d r•l r· y ~;! d u c d t .. i. 0 n "i, ~; ~; +: ··i. lJ. about t hE:1 10IAte s t: -.i. n Canada, and l::l'lr:·ll.: j_ f' IAU~ C 0 1.11. cJ ·i. 1'1 C t' e d S {;! t:: h t:! par·t:i.cJpat'.ion r'atc-:'!, thoi"E~ st.:ill IAIOUJ.d be i'ln ddOqlli:11·.u J'll.llflbet• of' students to go through our :i. n s t: :i i.: 1.1 l· "i. on:; . T 'l: h '.'i. n !< IAH'! s h o ul d :; ·1-. J. J.

J. p l .:-~ n F o r· 1'1 I 0 l" E~ i'l 1'1 d ITI 0 I" E:~ S 'l:: U d EHl t S a l'l d IAJC,~ shouJrl E'! .nCOUY'd(3E'! +:.hE:!Ifl l:o I;Onl:"i.nuC;! on IAdt:h 'LhE,:i.r . post--sc::~condary aducdtion, whe+:hor iL be L2498 May 31, 1988 Vol XL university or community college or I.LJhat.ever. Having said · that, Mr. Speaker, I still say that th.is is a good piece of legislation, it is an : i. rn p o r ·t. a n t p ·i e c E~ o f 1 t::1 g 'i s 1 a t i o n . It is coming in a little bit ]ate, b11t, fort1tnai::E~J.y, Jl~. 'is bE!l::l:E!r later than nE!UE!r.

Be,cause, as lAW sc:'l.id IJC:~si':.(;,r·day, thE'! uar•iety "i.n l:hE:1 quality of thE! institutions is i:I'H:dr 1110s 1.: notable att:r· ·:ibu·l:.e.

Whereas the Har·binger onE! clc,1al"ly hi:\d fi.n•'1nc:i.r:·ll. pr·obl.~:!lllS, thE:!rE~ !.H'E:! other ins ·titut:ions oui: ther·e t.AJhJ.ch 11 i'\

l) o i:\ 1.: o r· r· -i. b l. E~ r· (;! p u ·1·. i:J. 1·:. ·i. o n ; students find that ·thc-:~y haVE! r•er:llly br:!en l.c:!r·r·i.bl.y b-i.l.kE!d, I guess is the best word for it, b:.i.l.ked :i.n l.:hc~~ SEHJS('! Lhc:\'l: l':.h~~y f.h·~ i.d a lot of money and r•(,~CEd.vc:H~ a J.oiAJ q u ;:-\ J. ·i. t y e d u r; i'l t: ·i. on , on l;! 1.. h H t: lAta s interrupted, orw that IAJas not on t·. h f~ f c:·\ c :i. l. '.'i. t. ·'i. e s t. h d l. lAtE:! r· E! adVE!rtising and so on.

OthE!r i. n s t. .i. i~. u-1.: 'i. o n s , o f' c o u r s ~~ , a r· (,~ a 1 s o extremely I.AJell r'E!Ct::1ived and I meni~.'ioned yt::1s I~.E:H'day, and since the former candidate for Waterford K <-?. n moun i: i. s in t.l-w g a 11. C:H' y t: o clay and is involved IJ.Jith it, I IArilJ repeHt for hls benefit that the Keyin Technical College is onE! of 1-. h E:~ b c;, s ·1·: r· E~ g a r· d e d i. n t. h f:! P r· o u :i. n c e in terms of the priuate -Lnsi:.tl~.ul..ions, and ·J.ndf~Od IAtas vE:,ry highly rated by the suruey done by +·. h e I i o 1 1 ~; c:! 1\ o y ;:·\ l.

C 01 nrn :i. s s i. o n l. n l_errns of ·thE! educa ·tion :lt:. cl ('! l t

l) t::~ t' (:' d t: () "i. 1'·. s s t: 1.1 d (:1 n 1'.: s . Unfortunately, that was not the C ; ·~ ~; (! IAJ'i. 1·. h r'\ ll 1:: h C! 0 1: h ~'! Y' inst:ittJtions. I-IOl.4HWer·, having said that., Ml". ~) p !: ~ .:-\ k t:! t' , IAI (;! IAI j_J.l b (-~ ;_,\ S k J. n CJ f 0 r• amendments when we g8t into C o rmrri. 1'. 1.·. f~ t~ ~; 1·. r::t g r~ . 0 n e o F t·. h t;! seci:ion~; of that par·ticu1al" l n g "i. s 1 d t . ·:J. o n c c:l I . .l :; f o r· r ·i. n u s o F l.l p to $250 for individuals who

t) t o J. i:'l t c;! t: h (~ p r· o l) :i. s -:i. o n :; of i 1·:. • lr~ e No. 46 R2498

~ ... -~ ........ _. ... _, --.&-.- ~--- . ,..._ ... ___ _. .... ..~ .... --·--~~ -··· .. ----·· .. ·~··-··.....,., ............... :;.o.--~1 ......, ______ .... ~--""·-- .-.. .. -'..;:Jt, ...... ~ .... · -- ................. _ •. ~ . .... J-. ..... ·-· - ·--· · thLnk this is scandalously low. If you are looking at a several rn i ll. i o n d o l. 1. c:\ r i n d 1.1 s i: r y , IAI ~d. c h 1. ~; IAJhi:.tt lAI~~ ar·e J.oold.ng at, clearly

l) i. o J. c:~ t i n 9 l:. h c,1 t' 1 1l e !> IJJ "i i". h i rn p u n "i. 1 ·. y cHid on] y 9(!tt:Jng a $250 fine j s no lilt:~ r:·\ n s 0 f F

l) r c i. n 9 +.: h 0 ~; (~ :inst ·:itutions to comply t.uit:h nol: 0 n ·1. y t. h c~ 1.~:' 9 :i S l d t. 'i. 0 n b 1.1 I. I AI. i. 1.: h I: h C:1 l"~:!gUJ ab ons that tAJ:i 11 come down. On J··.hr.1t·: basis, tAle t:h:i.nk Lh<,~ maximum fine should at lE.~ast be in the t'<Hlg~~ of about :r;~;ooo or so, so thC:tt the teeth in the legislat:ion tAl i. l. l. e n s u r <:1 c om p 1 :i. c:l n c ~~ tAd l: h i. 1·: . Having sH·i.d l:hat. , Mr. Spt~dkcH', lAH;! welcome the legislation and we are looking forwar-ct t.o i:Hnend.ing i l :i.n the Committee stage.

Overall, lAIE! t h i n k i t i s i n t h Co1 be s t :i. n t e r' e s t of the young people of our Pr·ov ince. MR. SPEAI<ER : The hon. ·the member for Bonav:ista Nor·th. r..,R . LUSH: Thank you, Mr·. Speaker . :1 stand to ~:~gain allud~1 to the s 'i.-l:udti.on T. r't'l:i.SE!d -i.n t:hi~; Ho11~>e yc-'!sl.~1rdi:ly, spec:ifica1J y r·elating i··.o t.hn 1-ir"'t"b:i.ng~~r· Sr:hool o-F n us j n ~~ ~; s . It. :i 5 u nf or· t:. una t e , M I" . s p e r:'l k (:H' I t:: h a t·. 1~1 h CoHl IAH:' (:HII b ,·u· k II p 0 n u E:! n t: t.tr' E:! 5 1 :i b:! l hat , i n v a r· i a b 1 y SOIIIE!borly hi'IS

h) bco! bur·nl:. befor·r~ llllc' tighh'!l1 up thc,1 ]€~g : islatjon. In +.: h i. s p r:\ I" t: -i. c 1.1 J. d r· ~; i. 1: u a ·1:. j_ 0 n I T. rnaintai.n 'it t.uas the slackness and the sloppiness oF government r'E:1gu1ations IAihich a11ot.ued this to happen. Mr. Speaker, lf we are go:ing l:o give students 1oans and asstgn t.:hE:Wl to pt".i .

Ui'1b~ schools, T be1iE:we tAlE! haVE! lo ensure that UlE! 1 E:1 g 'i. s l. a ·t .. i. on .i. s s ~~ f f i c Len 1:1. y ·t .. i. g h 1-. enough 5o :it does not a 11 OlAI s t:qdt::1nts t.o be gougod and r· ·i.pped off, innocent students as happE!nE!d 'i.n t:hi.s casc,1. 1_2499 May 31, 1988 Vol XL T. t:hank thc,1 m:i.ni.sJ:~;;1r For h:i.s statement today and I know the rni.ni.:> hH' J.s go'i.ng to look :l.n-·t.o it. NotAl, I could have gone to the rn-Ln·i.:;l·.c!T' pt''i.l)i::\l.E!ly, a:; T nor·rnal.ly would do on a situation like that, b 11 1·.

T b o l. ·i. ''! lJ n rl, fJ! r· . ~3 p (~ .:1 k f:! r· , t. hi. s matte1n should haVE:1 bet::1n madE! p 11 b l J. r: to i .~ 'l t:! I" ·1·. p i:l t' en 1-: ~' , 1.: o <:·l J. ~ : ! r· 1:. sbJdents, and to aJ.er·t thE! pubJ.j .c of l.:h·i.:; Pt'OlJ ·i.nco d~> to lAihr:ll:: can happen when we do not have pr·op~H' 1 c,1 g i. ·s l i:l L i o n '1:. o e n s u r· e t.: h fit 1: o u r students are protected.

I think all hon. rnHrntwrs IAI"'i.ll agr·~~e lhat that is a terrible thing to havE· he\ppe::H'I r.o somt~body, l::o Hnroll tn a school and through various c Jr· c ums U:Hl Ct.;! s hr:w E! t.o tAJ:i t hd r·aw from that school. The minister s~H:Hne:1d t.o sugge::~s·t. that he did not know that yesterday, but I sp~~ci.Ftcall.y poinl::~:!d out: that thE• mattE!r I was rE!fE!rring l:o had to d o tAri. 1·. h s 1:: u r:l C:! n b; tAl h o IAri t h d r· ~:! 1~.1 . I 1:: had nothing to do with pE!Ople who IAI (.~ In (~ c 0 n t "'i. n l.l J 1'1 g

t) n :J. n L h (:1 c 0 l.ll" s ~=! I it had to do with peoplE! 1.uho IAJi. J~ h rJ t' f~IJ.I •:\ r1 d IAJ h 0 ~) 0 fiiO rl j_ ~ = ! S 1.~1!::! r' (-'! s ·t:ill somehow under the control. of l:hr'l't: ~;chool.. T do no+: knoiAJ all. thE! dE:1l:ails or· 'I:E!Chnical~i.t:i~~s r:\ b

C) IIi·. ., 1: I ;:\ n d () n 1:1 d

C) E! ~; n 0-1: h <:·l l) (~ t 0 know; all tAle have to know is that !;l·.ud,·:!nl:~; got·. ri.ppE:!cl of-f. R E:! g a r· d 1 C::1 s ~> o f t h E! a rn o u n t , 1.11 h E! t h E:! I" :it·. ·i.:; $1000, $1'/00 or· $?.000, i . t. was too much for students, unernployt ,1 d peopl.r:1 ·l··.r·y-Lng to gc,1l:. ahead in this l:i.fe, to find out 1: I'll:·) y I~JE! t' e r· ·i. p p c.~ d u f -r:· J n Ud. s rnannE!r, Mln.

Speaker, that is why I lnaiSE!d ·t. h 1::1 rna t·. l: ~:! r· , t. o b r' .l. n g .i. 1:. t. o t: hE! attention of the public and, hopE:1ful .J.y, l:. o rn;:,lkC:1 l:·.h~'! gouE?t"nrnent rnore a!Aiar'E! of thE! situation and l.:o Lighl : en up t: he lc,1g-i.sl.at:.l.on . NotAJ, l i:ll'll nol: ~;ur't::1 that. legislation, in thE! rnE:!antirne, t:hi.s lAd 11 h c"tl) 0 -1:. h (o1 (:1 f f (:1 c; J-. 1·: h (o! ln:i. 'n •i. s t I::! r· No. 46 R2499

believes it will have. I am not sure. I think the clause he is counting on is Clause 19 (e), the minister - ·can correct me if I am wrong. I believe it is 19 (

e) that he is hoping will protect students in the event there is a financial pr·obl(;!ln or· a bankruptcy, as happened IJJi th Harbinger, and lhat :is to ~~~:we bonds. It says, 11 Requiring regis ·tered private traini.ng insti.tu tions to be bondod in the form and terms and with the collateral security lhat is prescribed in providing for the forfeiture of bonds and the disposition of the proceeds. 11 Of course, Mr. Speaker, it will depend on what levels the bonds will be, what amounts they will be. For example, I understand the Harbinger School qf Business had a bond.

Do han. members know how much it was? $1,000 was the bond the Harbinge'r School had, and they had, I believe, seventy students enrolled. That is being properly dis p o s e d of now, but. , M r . Speaker , one does not have' to be a great mathematical ·wizard to determine how much these seventy students wj.ll ge ·t. If ther·e are any other creditors, Mr. Speaker, then these people IJJill. be dot•m to !Jery, vc-:lr'y little. So this particulAr legislation depends on what the regulations u..lill be, whethc :!ln it IAJ.i1l be:1 s t:i pula ted thcl t the bond wi 11 be sufficient to take care of an event like this .

I certainly hope, as a result of the:1 Harbtnger experience,, that ·the minister will make sure that the bond is sufficient to be able to take care of an eventuality as this so that - MR. MATTHEWS: We had it long before that. MR. LUSH : L2500 May 31, 1988 Vol XL Well, if Harbinger, have it? it was long before how come they do not AN HON. MEMBER: This is review legislation. M~_._LUSH: I see. Yes . Mr.

Speaker, it is onJ.y if ·that bond i.s made sufficiently high e no u-g h to t a k e care of a 1 1 t h e contingencies, considering the maximum enrollment of the school and this kind of thing, IJJill the student be protected. Mr. Speaker, I certainly hope the minister will pay attention to this and assure the House that this will take place, that the b o n d s y s t em wi 11 c e r t a 'i n 1 y p r· e v E! n t this kind of thing from happening in the future. Mr. Speaker, :i.f U..IE! can achieve that, then maybe! WE! will have learned a good lesson from the Harbinger situation.

But, again, I think the minister agrees, as do I, that it is mos·t unfortunate that any student, be it a half dozen students or a dozen s tudent:s, should have lost any monies because of the way this was set up, any Amount of monies. I certainly appreciate the fact l:hat the. m·ln:i.ste:H' is looi<J.ng int.o this and has said that he will i.niJest .i gai:e the si.i.:uat:ion a little further to d~1·terrninE! IAJhat his dc~1par·t·.ITI(!I'll can do j_n this situation. TlierE! are a number of things thal: can bE! don~::~ oncE' the problem is determined as to how many the:1re are, becauSE!

I am not sure that anybody knows as thi s point as to how many there are; you get dj.fferent numbers taJ.k:lng to different people. I can unde,rst.and that., because peopJ.E! havc-:1 not gotten doiAII'l to analyzing them all. And they have not hear·d No. 4-6 R2500

back from some of them yet, because some of them just got their bills from the bank, so they probably- (fo not know precisely how many there are. Once the minister g(,1ts a handle on the problem, I would hope that he will look at this situation with sympathy and empathy for these young people just attempting to make a start in 1 if e . To be hi t wi t h t hi s situation could cause them, Mr. Speaker, to lose almost all confidence in our financial system, in our banking system, in our educational system, in the whole bit.

I cer ·tainly hope the minister, when looking into this, will keep these factors in mind, and the suggestions are almost innumerable as "l:o IAJhai: he could do: ThE!Y'E~ .is the matter of working out with the biulks a longer period of time for these students to pay off their deb ·t; therE~ is th~1 matter of dropping the interest; there is the matter of wiping out the loans completely because of the circumstances under which they develope!d. I - certainly hope' the minister will address all of these things, Mr. Speaker. With that, I will take my place. MR.

SPEAKER: If the han. minister speaks now, he closes the debate. MR. K. AYLWARD: Mr·. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: I wi 11 r e c o g n i z e t he h o n . t he member for Stephenville . MR. K. AYI..WARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Mr·. Speak<~H'. I <..J.ppr·ecii.·\te your wisdom, and my debt to the hon. member for Humber Wesl will be L2501 May 31, 1988 Vol XL paid in due time. Pertaining to this bill, - just - a couple of comments.

I welcome the bill with relation t.o the regulation of private ~raining institutions specifically to ensure there are regulations to govern the actions and ·the course requirements, etc., which should be there for young peoplE! or .anybody, for that matb::~r. who go to · such institutions. These :institutions have a place in our educational format, but they should not be h~1re at the expense of courses already given in our provincially funded educational institutions . Tha·l: brings me to the rnat'l:c-:1r. Mr.

Speake'r, of the financing of ou1~ educational :i.ns"l::i.tuttons within the Department of Career DEwelopmc!!I'Jl:, and lhe layoffs t.hat. have occurred with the community college system and Cabot Institute. My query on this, Mr. Speaker. is whether or not sorne of the layoffs we see, and courses bei.ng dropped, are due to the fact that we are giving thE! cour·sE!S to the private training institutions? I am concerned that this is being done at t.he expense of the institutions we have and have had here for many years. In talking t.o some people IAii th 'I:I1E!

Cabot Institute and with the community coll('?.ge system, some of t he pro g r a rnrn e s t hat IAJ e r· e s u p p o s (~! d to be iransferred have not been transferred, Ml"'. Speakc::~r. and some of the instructors have been dropped from the system, especially when it comes to the Cabo ·t Inst. -:itt~te. In relation to the Cabot Inslitu"l:e, courses which were scheduled to be transfE,rrE!d aJong IAli th t.he i. n s t ru c tor· s, IAHH'E:~ d r•oppc,1d No. 46 R2501

.. ....r.... ..... ...... ~ .......... - . --.. ...... --.. .. ____________ . .... _ - - ------ with no explanation. I am kind of leery and have great concern, Mr. Speaker, about that. I think that problem should be addressed by the minister when he is closing the debate on this bill. Because if that is the case, if lAJe iH'E:1 just going to get rid of the good courses and good instructors we had within our provincial r:H~ u c a t i o n a 1 s y s t 1::1 m , w h e n i. t c o rn 0. s to post-secondary training, we should have a second look at where that policy is taking us, Mr. Speaker.

There are a number of good private training institutions, and nobody debates that. I am glad to see this bill, but the problem of us getting out of training and educating our young peoplE!, or anybody who wants to get training and education, and deciding that we are going to throt~o.J it into the lap of the private sector, I think, especially when it comes to important education we have to provide, we should review that. If the government is doing this a n d t h e y are · .do i n g i t be hi n d "t: he scenes, it is - not right and they should address the problem.

We have had specific information come "to us which tells us that courses have been going on and were scheduled to be transferred from the institutes over to the community colleges, and this has not be(o!n done. I would hop(:! the min'istet", t~o.JhE:Hl hE! is cJ.osing the d e b a h1 , t.u -i.ll add r· (:1 s s t h a l: s p r:1 c if i. c ;concern in relation to the Cabot Institute and the community colleges in the Province, where we see not enough funding being provided and some courses being dropped.

We understand there is be done on whether being provided in our L2502 May 31, 1988 a revietAJ to the courses s y s t.r:nn are Vol XL setting us in the right direction, and if there is a demand ' for them and if there is a demand - fo-r -the · finished product.

While we can accept that that revielAJ should be done, courses which are in de!fnand and are needed should be put in place within thE! community colle!ge systr:1m, lAJhich has L:hr:1 mandate, and those courses should be provided Lilith the proFH:1r Funding and tAJit.h the proper instructors, so that tha~ mandate, with which they were provided last YE!ar, can be carriE!d out. And that has not b~H!n happening. I do not think it has been happening adequately enough. In the case of the Western Community College, out my way; I think that problem should be addresse!d. When we look at t:hE! private institu ·tions, Mr.

SpeakE!r, and ~etting up regulations, the courses they arE:1 st.ar ·ting and so on should be checked out and monitored to make sure that the criteria and the proper courses, with all the materials and so on, are provided. But I am concerned, Mr. Speai<E!Y', with instructor retraining within the career development system, because I do no·t th'ink the proper advice has been given to i.nslructors t•.Jho i:\rr:1 b("1:lng laid off.

I think there should be discussions with these people before the potential layoffs occur to discuss ·Lf they can be retraine!d in sornE! other field, or if there is a way for them to stay within the system. T hi s wa s s u p p o s e d to bE! d o rH:! a n d it was set up within The Community Colleges Act. There was a subcornmit.tee t.vh'.'i.ch t.uas ·sE!t up specifically when the reorganization occurred, and when the minister rises I hope he w'iJ.J. make some comments on instructor No. 46 R2502

retraining, which is supposed to be ongoing, as a matter of fact, by the Department of Career Developm~nt in its retraining of ins·tructors. When h~1 rises I hope he will address that matte,r because there are many concerns being expressed. It is not good enough to write it off to the collective bargaining process and that his person or that person, we have to wait for all that to occur before we can deal with potential the layoffs. You have to deal with potential layoffs, Mr.

Speaker, before the!y comes, and you should deal with that by getting in the people who are possibly going to be laid off and looKing at retraining or an al ·terna t:i v e course they may be able to teach with their background and qualifications. Tha ·t is something that should bE! done . I see the mechanism that is SE:1"l up, but I am not too sur~1 about the t.uay "it is being handled or the way it is being carried out. I have been told that there are resumes being submitted to the subcommittee for instructor retraining, and this is being done from the Cabot Institute and it is being done elsewhere.

But that is far· as it has gone. That is not L.uhat it IAJas set up to do. They should be looking at that and reviewing and trying to keep people who are trained and who have been in the system for years, who are contributing a great deal to the community college system and the post-secondary education of the people of this Province. That problem should be addressed and I would hope, when the minister looks at th e introduction of the regulations governing private training institutions, that he will also look at the retraining of his own people within the Department of Career L2503 May 31, 1988 Vol XI..

Dc:HJelopm.ent, and that the within the community system is addressed. problem college Mr . Speak E:1 r , ·these r E:1 g u 1 at :ions iH' E! welcome. They are good to see bc:1cause of problems which have occurred with some of thE! pri.V{·lt~ E! tr·aining institutions. L'llr:.~ tAJelcorne thE! regulations corning in and sugge