Volume XLI Thursday Province of Newfoundland FORTY -FIRSTGENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Second Session VERBATIM REPORT {Hansard} Speaker: Honourable Thomas Lush [Preliminary Transcript J Number 31 10 May 1990

fhe House met at 2:00 p.m. .Mr. Ot~dE!r, pleas~:>! Statements by Ministers Mr. Speaker: The han. the Minister of Social Services . Mr. Effot"d: Thank you, Mr . Speaker. I would like to lake this opportunity to infot"m the House of the decision to close the Coach House facility effective June::~ 30, 1990. As you arE:' au.Jal"E•, while in Opposition I had many concc::~r·ns about thE! functioning of t·.his facility. When I became Minister, my staff were well aware of my concerns but stressed the need for a program to deal eFfE~ctiuely tJJith l~he youth beyond parental cont.t"ol and hauing SE!Uere behaviour problems.

Gt"eat e ·Ffort lAJas made to make the Coach House program work. However, the physical bL.tilding and the surroundings were inappropriate For such a program. Mr. SpE!akr:'r, u.Jhile there is st:ill a great need for an assessment and t.rE~atment progl"am, it has been recognized that the Coach House program is not able to fulfill that mandate. ·rhought was giuen to the t"eciesigning of thE! PI"091"am, hotJJeuE~r, :i.t tJJas quite euidE!nt !:.hat the r:'Xisting building IJJas not suitable. Ml".

Speaker, as at. this time, a number of the residents are prepared to moue home and other placements can be found for the remaining boys . It is an opportune tirne to close Coach House and to concentrate on the deuelopmr:!nt of a progr·arn that can mot"E:~ adequal:ely address the neE~ds of children corning into the cat"e of the Dil"ector of Child Welfat"e. My staff have rnE:!t with thE! Board Ll May 10, l'J90 Vo1 XLI of Director's Fat" Coach HouSE! ancl discussed the closing with them. The meeting resulted in an agreement to c1ose Coach House by J LinE:' 3 0, 1 9 9 0 .

I u.;o u 1 d 1 i. k H at. this t.-:iiTIE! to thank l~he boa1"cl and stafF of Coach House as IAJH11 c.-=t~; the rnernbE!I"S of rny otJJn staf 'f, lAJho worked hard and long to try to rnake this pi"091"i:\rn a sucCE!SS. It has been a valuable learning experience For all of those inuolUE!d and lAJ:i.l]. be veJ"Y u~;efu·l as we develop a new program to rneet the needs oF chi1dren with serious behaviour problems. Mr. Speaker: The hon. l .. hE· Mernbet" for Port au Port. Ml". Hoclcler: Ml" . ~)pE!ai<E!l", 1 lAJoulcl just like t:o say t:hat:. th1:!

Coach H o us u tAla~; t. h 1::! t" E:' f o I" i;t p u I" p o s Eo! an cl :it sE:~I"ued il:s put"POS(~ as long as the people in that institution IAJE:~ I" e IAJt::.ll c a I",,~ cl f o I" , an cl I hopE:~ i. t is not thE• caSE!, as happened u.Jhen the rc::Hnand cE:~ntJ"e tAJas closed, u.Jhere thet"e i.s a IJ..JOl"S(' situati.on now than there was before. Mr.

SpeakE:H', car·e must be pt"ovidecl Fot" the people who need that institution, a-r1cl at !:his t:imc• l wou1d likE! to pay tribute l:o the board of directors, whom, l understand were an independent board outside of Government, who haue given unselfishly oF their tirne throughout the years as we11, Mr . Spr:~akr:~r, I tAJou'lcl like t.o stt"E!SS again, that t.hou~Jht rnust be giuen to the chi1dren. I notice that thE:! Mtnistel" says a pr·ogt"aiTl rnust be cleve1opPcl. Woll there is a program needed For lhE!Se chi1dren tJJho have l:h1:•se disabi1ities. And I would say, Mt". SpE:!C3.kel", that thE:!

M:inis t.el" rnust make sut"e that that pl"ogJ"drn is developed. And we wi11 have tnOI"e to say abo Lit. it 1ater, Lue haue just ].r:•arned of t.his a fet;..J No. 31 (AFternoon) rn

minutes ago. We will have more to say about it later. Some Han. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker: Further Statements By Minister. The han. the Minister of Social Services. Mr. Effo1nd: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would likE! to take this opportunity to updatE! the House as to the present status of the deinstitutionalization of Mount Cashel. Since November, when the Christian Brothers announced the closure of Mount CasheJ., there has bE:'en a concerted effort by my staff and the staFf of Mount CashE!l to work with th<:~ · young men to develop and implement plans for their future care. Mr.

Speai<E!r, plans arE• being Finalized for the placement oF all th:i.l~ty .... five young men IAJho wer·E:~ at Mount Cashel. At the present time, thE:~Ine are only eleven young men residing there waiting for implementation of a pJ.an for their placement. Of the twenty-Four who have left Mount Cashel, seven young men have moved home or with relatives, one is being accommodab':'d in a fos ·ter home, and sixteen young men have been accornmodatE:'d in independent living arrangements.

The independent living models have been developed for those who are attending university or post-secondary institutions, and they consist of shared apartments. Personal support and assistance with independent living skills such as budgeting is being provided to this group by the project team. Of the eleven young men remaining, two will be moving into foster L2 May 10, 1990 Vol XLI hornE!S and nine young ITH'!n ulill be accommodated in semi --indepE!rldl:!nt living arrangements. These arrangements incl ude a live -in staff person who supervises the boys and maintains the unit.

These staff w:i11 bE· cal"efu11y selected and able to assist the boys in lhe deveJ.opment of independent living skills. Again, the pi"Oj ec t LE•c\1'11 t;.d.ll provide social Luork support Lo the arrangement . Staff have been advertised For and inte1nviews a1ne to be held in the near future. There is a comprehensive scrE!en:ing process and training program planned Fo1n the s tar'·f lAJho a1ne hired. Ml".

Speaker, it is anti.cipat:ed that all of the young 1nen t_~..ri 11 have left Mount CashE•l by the end of June, 1990 . rhe models and supports being developed and implemented by the project team IAiiLJ. be of benE~fit to alJ chilcll"E:!n in the Foster care system. rhe arr·angements wtll fol"ITI pa1"t or a continuum of care IAihich recognizes that each child is cii :f rei"E•n 1:.. Ml". Speaker, a variE'!l:y oF p1acernents are required if !:.heir individual needs are to be met. Thank you. Mr. Speaker: rhe hon. l:.l'w Merni:H:!I" for Port au Port. Min. Hodder: Ml" .

SpE•aker·, I hope it was thE:~ right dec:l,~;ion to C 1 0 5 e , A n d J. t lA I a S t h E! l" :i g h t setting for rnost peoplE:' lAJho lAJE!nt there. And I do hopE! that l:hE• bad publicity that has surrounded that institution IAii11 not undo the good that was done there over the years. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hE·ar! No . 31 (AftE!rnoon) R2

000 Ms Verge: Ml". Speake!", this is not an Oral Question. I am out of place, but with Your Honour's indulgence I would like to recommend to Your Honour that Your Honour send a message on behalf of all hon. Members to each of the recipients of the Arts Council Awards presented last night. ThE! MinistE•I" of Municipa1 and Provincial Affairs, responsible for Arts and Culture, presented the Arts Council AtJJard to the Artist of the Year, Donna Bu tt, and o the I" presentations were made to Rufus Gu:i.nchard.

As well, there we1"e indue lees into the Arts Council HaLL of Honour·: Reginald Shepherd, Helen Parsons Shepherd, as well as Gordon Pinsent. Ml". SpE:'akel", my suggestion is that Your Honour send messages of congratulations to each of these outstanding artists on behalF of all Members of the House of Assembly. Ml". Simms: An excellent idea! Some Han. Members: Hear, hear! Oral Questions Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition . Mr. Rideout : Thank you VE!ry much, Ml". SpeakE!r. Mr.

SpE!akel", the Premier in an interview on the CBC program Morningside, on February 5, 1990, said that one of the reasons why Government had decided to Fund an additional twenty tAJeek notice period for plant workers in St . John's and Trepassey, Gaultois and Grand Bank was because there L3 May 1.0, 1990 Vol XLI was no provision for pensions. That IAJas one rE!ason the f'I"E!IrJi(,'l" mentioned, and the other reason was that there was no provision fo1" adequate::~ tEH'Irl'inat.:ion a11owancE:'S. both of which wei"E! accurate statements. of course. Mr.

Speaker. would !:he Prern:ir?.r tell the House whethE!r Ol" not thE• Govel"nrnt'nt has ciE!C'.icled t.o contribute to the $120 million sever' an c e fund that '"Ia s ann o u n c c:~ cl as p a I" t o·F t h !':' Fe cl E! I" a 1 F :i. s h A .i cl package a Fr:~IJJ days ago, rhat \.i,IC\S to b c:! s r:~ t: u-p . a s I u n cl e r' s t a n cl t t . for that VE!I"Y pUI"pose -- p(:'ns:ions and seVE!rance? Mr. Speaker: The hon . the Premier .

Premier Wells: I do not knot.~J if the LeadE!r of the Oppost l:.ion 1Ali:'ll'1 l:.s to cause the taxpayers oF this Prov:i.nce particular· hc.H'III by havj .ng them take over responsibtlit:ies that are properly the responsibility of the Federal Government or not. We have already spE~nt $111 rn:'i.lLion to gr:'t extra time to give rr1o1~e extensive notice, because the Federal Govel"nment _ tAJas no!: in a posil :'ion to do what it was obliged to do at the time.

NotJJ he SE~Prns to tJJanl. to ·take some::! pecu1ial" clel·i ght in placing an additional burden on the taxpayers oF this fll"ovincE~. to give further relief For the Federal Government . Maybe he suggests we should pay back the Federal GovernmE~nt l.o\Jhat they Ell"e going t:.o put. into tt. It: . is just an unreasonable approach. Ml". Speaker: The hon. the Lc::-acle1" of the Opposition . Mr. Rideout : A suppJ.E~IfiNll:.ai"Y. Ml" . Speaker.

In vi~"?lJJ of !:he Prern:it:. ~r' s answer, the Mintster of FishE~I"iE!S told this House yesterday that: he was w:i.ll :i.ng t.o nt~~Jo ·t:iate tJJi l:.h the No. 31 (AFtE:'I"noon) R3

Federal Government on that part of the package and other parts of the package. Is the Premier saying now · that there will be no participation by the Province in that severance plan, and there will be no negotiations between the Province and the Federal Government on that part of the package? Mr. Speaker: The han. the Premier . Premier Wells: Mr. Speaker, the Government's position has been spelled out for quite some ·time, and I will restate it again so that the Leader of the Opposition wiJ.l know.

And if he will listen to me instead of his Opposition House Leader. hE! will hear what I am going to have to say and he will not have to ask the same question again tomorrow. The Government's position is very clear. The Federal Government has responsibility and exclusive jurisdiction for the management of the fisheries and the fish stocks. That jurisdiction gives them responsibility, Mr. Speaker, For the consequences of theiin mismanagement, and we have taken that position with the Federal Government all along. So it is th•':'ir res pons i bi l i ty to deal with the financial consequences of their mismanagement.

They are going to do that, at least theine is some indication they are going to do l~hat. We haVE! aJ.so said to them, look, you are concerned tAiith the problem in the Newfoundland fishery, as are tAle; you are conCE!innE!cl with the problem in the Newfoundland economy that puts undue prE!Ssures on thr:~ fishery, so are we.

If you tAJill participate, we wiLl join with you in finding means of providing for the future security of the Newfoundland fishery and enhancing its performance and its productivity L4 May 10, 1990 Vol XLI and, at the same time, diversifying the economy of Newfoundland so as to reltevr:~ the pressure on the Newfoundland fishery.

That is where the Govt~innment of this Pinovince lAJants to put. its effoi~t. · We will make sure the Federal Government discharges its responsibility to the fishermen and the Fish plant lAJOrkE:~i~S in l:.he COITiilil.lll:i.t:i.es involved, for the clostH'E:'S and U1•:> loss oF jobs that havE· l"E•sull .. ecl From the federal misrnanagE!I'rlE!I'1 L of the fish stocks. M1n. Speaker: ThE! hon. thE:' Lr'!i:lCIE:!l" of the Opposition . Mr.

Rideout: So, I assuine tAJe can say safely the f>inovinCE! wJ] 1. not . be participating in that SE!VE!r'anCI?. package, eVE!n though the Minislr:!i" of Fisheries gave the indica~ion yesterday that it would. Min. SpE!akei", t.hC'' Pinr:!rn:i.r:!l~ has consist.:~ntly denied l:.o Ud.s House and to l: he p eo p 1 e of N E:!IAJf o u n cl1 a n cl and Labrador that h:i.s Government has supported a policy of fewer fishermen, fewer Fish plant:. workers, and Fewer Fish plants. In the sarne program I just reFerred to, the Morningside Program of Fe brual"Y 5. Lhe P i"f!llri E! r said.

I anticipatE! that Uwse plants will close, reFerring to Gaultois, Trepassey, St. John's, and Gr·and Bank, and I do nol: so•':! tAJhat E<lse can happen. NotAl, Ml". Speaker, hotAJ can l:.hE:' Pi"onri~::'r square that statement, that admission, lAJ:i.th l:he st .al:.ements made over recent clays that his Government does not support. that particular policy? Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Pl"enl:i .ei~' . Premier Wel1s: Mr. ~ipeak1:!t". the first COlTiiTIE!l'll: he illacle IAJaS assumption as to lAJhat CovE:·r·nrnent's No. 31 (Afternoon) R4

policy was. Government's policy is as we have announcl':!d it, as I just indicated, and as we have announced it in the past. For example, in tE!rrns oF responding to the Worker Adjustment Program, yes, the Provincial Government lA.Ii.ll be contributing somE! of that under the POWA Program, for example. There is a Provincial Governmental component in that, unemployment insurancE! and certain other CEIC payments and so on, and the consequences of their mismanagement of the fishery is for the Federal Government.

We have a big enough burden trying to make the economy of this Province work a~d trying to rE!Store thE! quality of our hE!alth care and education services in this PtnovinCE!. That is a big, big jo"b ·. We have to use our resoUinces along those lines, so we cannot relieve the FedE~ral Government of their responsibility. Mr. Rideout: Nobody asked you to. Premier Wells: NotJJ, Mr . Speaker, I would say the only sensible thing For me to do now is to go back to the Cabinet Minutes of last October and NovembE~r and dig out just what was recommended. Mr.

Speaker, I think I will do that, and I lJ..Jil1 pr·obably table it in the House tomorrow, a complete statement to refute totally the inferences in the commPnts of the Leader of the Opposition about the Government's position. The Government's position has been made clear last August, last OC'tobE:!r, ancl on nurnE'rous times over ·the last seVE!lnal months. The Government's position is we do not want to take people out of the fishery, force people out:, and bar others from getting into the fishery. That i·s not thE! Government's policy.

We L5 May 10, 1990 Vol XLI recognize, I say aga in, we recognize that too many of our people have to rely on the Fish.::~ry, thE:~Inefotne, lAJE! must find somE! economic a]ternalivE~ fotn them so that lhey lAJill haVE! l:hE! cho "Lce to stay with the:' fishE!ry tf they wish, if that . is what U11::-y l~J is h to do, or to leave the fishery . Min. Speaker, WE'! haVE! to pl"ovidE:! f o In l: he p eo p 1 e who h a v Eo! dE:! d i c a l. o d their lives to the Fishery an opportunity to earn a reasonable living for themse1ves ancl lheir f-arni1ies. That . is lAJhat. lAJE~ t~Janl:. l:.o do.

By the same tok(!n, lAJe cannol. say to other people in Newfoundland, you cannot f:ish, we will not let you engage in l:.he Fishery, if we are not pl"eparE!cl to make sure that thE•ri':" is some ol:hur reasonab1e economic alternatiue avai.lable to Lhem. That has buen the COVE!lnl1lTlEo!nt's posi.l:.:ion r:·lnOirl l:.he beginning. Now, I know the other side are noL too happy tAJith that; thE·y aJ"e not too happy with seeing an int~lligent assessment to the problem of the fisher y For the first time in at least seVE!n'l.c·E~n y E! a r s .

I t b o t h e In s t h E• ITl q I" '''! a L 'ly J know, but, neueinl :hc,,less, lAJ9 a1ne going to persist. Some Han. Members : Heatn, hEo!dl"! Mr. Simms: You might hau1 :! bafFJ.ecl them on Meech, but you a1ne noL going to baffle them on Fish. Mr. Speaker : Oi"dE'ln, pleas,::•! The hon. the Lt::!acletn or· Lh e Opposition . Mr. Rideout : A supp 1ernE:~ntatny, Mr . SpE!akE!r. Mt". Speaker·, I did not ask the Pre11rier about Cabin1:!t documents or Cabinet Minutes, I asked the Premier about t:he No. 3 1 (Aftr:!rnoon) R!:i

Premier's own words, the Morningside Show 5, 1990. uttered on of FE•bruary An Hon. Member: (Inaudible) . Mr. Rideout: CBC Morningside Show. 'I accept the fact that those plants must cJ.ose.' That. is what the PJ"em:ier sa:id, Mr. Speaker. I...E!t me ask the Pri'::Hnier this: In prE!paring documents to table for this House, will the Premier table the document submitted to this Government by the FedE!Y'al Task Fol"CE!. the Stein Task Force, entitled Building a Viable Fishery, Mr. Speaker? Mr. Warren: T~ble it all. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Premier.

Premier Wells: First let m·e deal tAJith the words 1 I accept the fact that those plants must cloSE!.' I do. I will not deceive the people of Trepassey and Grand Bank and Gaultois and St. John's. Some Hon. Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: · Order, please! Premier Wells: I will not deceive them . You see, Mr. Speaker, IJ.Jhen the Fedl'::~ral Government said to the fishermen of NewFoundland, we will not let you catch the 70,000 tons oF fish you caugh l: tJJJO years ago. and not only that. when you look at it - Some Hon. Members: Oh, oh! An Hon. Member: Didn't you support that? Mr. Speaker: Order, please!

Premier Wells : Whl'::'n you look at all t.he information available, it is quite clear that the Federal L6 May 10. 1990 Vol XLI Government will, in all probability next YE:'ar, have to say to the fishermen of Newfoundland, we are going to cut you back still further. In a11 probability l:.hat is going to happE!n. NotAJ, Ml". Speaker, in those circumstances, if WE:~ are t. o havE! a v :i. cl b 1 e fishery, there is an inevitab1e consequence, one or more plants are going to have to close. An Hon. Member: FoJ"ever?

Premier Wells: One or rnore planl:s are going to have to close, Pl"obably Forever, un1ess l:heJ"e is enough fish to IAJal"J"ant. the"il" reopening, in lAJhich cas~~ I l~>.Joulcl bE! very happy to SE!Ci! ti-H"!HI r'eopE!n. But I do not tAJanl: to hold out to people in Trepassey or Gaultois or Grand Bank any false hope and say, just sit and tAJait, in 'll~>.JO YE!ar's w<::• will guarant:ee your plant is_ going to be reopened. I wou1d nol be so dishonest and unreasonable and irrE!SponsiblE! to thE• peoplr:• of those comrnunit.ies or to t.he peoplE! of this Province as to rnake any such statr:~ments. Now, Mr.

SpE!aker. I am qo.i.ng to go to dig out all the :inforrnation, because the leader of lhe Opposition has b~-,.en try:inq l:o persuade the people of this Province, For some reason or other, that. thE! CoveJ"nrnent. of' Newfoundland want l:o take people out of the fishei"Y· It I~>.Jas the Opposition that E~ndoJ"sed l .. hE! Federal measures, not. this Government, Mr. Speaker. Do not overlook that. Some Han. Members: Hear, heal''!

Premier WeLls: And notAl he lAJanLs to try and infer that somehow, because tAle approVE!d. or because t.ue indicated some 1evel of approval of a proposal at some stage, l:hat No. 31 (Afternoon) R6

we endorsed or promoted idE!a. WeJ.L I will go back dig out exactly what was said, Speaker, and I will table it the House. this and Mr. in Mr. Rideout: What about building a viable future (inaudible)? Mr. Speaker: The:~ hon. the ME:'mber for Grand Bank. Mr. Matthews : Thank you, Mr . Speaker. In the absence of the Minis tE!r of· Fisherie:~s. I have a question for - the PrE!miE!r. On January 5, the Premier announced the Provincial Government 1 s funding to a1low for an exbHlded notice period for E:'rnployees at Grand Bank, Gaultois and Trepassey.

On March 12, I askE!d the Minister of Fisheries - I refer l:o Hansard of March 12 -· if he !AJould inform the House of l:l1e conditions attachE~d to thE~ funding provision to Fishery Products InternationaJ. . He said at that time he !J.Jould undertake to inform the House. I have asked him on two occasions since. In the Estimates Committee of the Department of Fisheries, held a fE!W !AJeeks ago, the Minister again refuse:~d to giVE! the conditions of funding to Fishery Products International. Could the Premier inform the House if any such conditions have been established and, if so, what they are? Mr.

Speaker: The han. the Premier. Premier Wells: Yes, M1n . Speaker. a·t the time the arrangements !AJE!re made, there was an agreement on the broad principles that were involved. and the handling of the plant proceeded on the basis of that agreement of the broad principles. The details of it., as to how it would be implemented and how the Government would monitor L7 May 1.0, 1990 VoJ. XLI the expenditures for which the CoVE!rnmE!nt. !AJould compE!nsate thE! companies, have since b1~E!n wo1nked out..

To thE! best of ' my kno!AJ1eclge, only in the last two to three weeks, perhaps, the final agreements have been signed; we wi.ll table thE! agrE!E!lflE!nts :in thE! House, Mr. Speaker. bu l: pE:!J"haps I should make surE• thE!r'E:' is nothing :in it that is of a company confidential nature that would pl"event this. I·f tl'lUI"H -i.s anything in it of that nature, !AJhat. I !J.Jou.ld undertakE! to do, Min. Speaker, is make the agruernunts available for my han. friend opposite to examine so that he will know what is in it. I do not think there is anything of that kind of a confidential nature.

IF therE! isn 1 t, t.ue tJ.Jill table thE·rn. I·f not., !AJe !AJi.ll 111ake them availabJ.e for examination by the Opposi l:ion. Mr . Speaker: Before recognizing the han. the ME!ITibE!r for GJ"ancl Bank for a supplr:~ment.ary, I !AJoncleJ" if hon. Members wou1d permit me to welcome fifty-seven Grand Ull students from the Fred Kirby Junior High School, Foxtrap, accompanied by their teachers, Mrs. Pat Kennedy, Mrs. Annette Warford and Mr. Parsons. I do this because they were just leaving the galleries. Some Han. Members : Heal", hC'!<H'! Mr . SpeakE!In : rhank you . ThE! han. thr:' ME!tnbE!In for Grand Bank . Mr.

MatthetJ.Js : Ml" . Speake!", I would Like to thank t:.he Pl"E!I'IIiE•r. It IAJas five;:! rnonths ago that this announcement was made, and I am pleased tha l~. !Ale !Ari.11 finaJ] .y ~lE:! t to see the conditions attached. Perhaps l:.he flrenrie1n cou1d l.J:>"l.l us. No . 31 (Afternoon) R'/

on the conditions of the conditions apply 1990 and 1991, Funding, do to ttAJO y E•ars, or is the only for a in 1991? provincial provision twenty weeks provision Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Premier . Premier Wells: It months ago ; in fact, it is not even that. is Mr . not five Speaker, In the case of Fishery Products, the general understanding was agreed upon i.~bout mid-January, at the tirne ·the plants closed, the second week in January or whenever it was. The details of the agreement have been worked out since. In the case of National Sea Products, that has only been in the last two monl:hs .

About t.wo man ths or so ago, that was agreed upon . So the details have been worked out and they are either signed or about to be signed, and I will table them. In tetnms of the conditions, in the case of National Sea Products, of course, it only app1iE.~s up until August: of this year. In thE! case of Fishery Products International, it applies into next year, too, it covers a two·-year period. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member for Grand Bank . Mr. Matthews: Thank you, Mr. Speaketn.

My referE!nce to thE! length of time tJJas that your relE!ase was January 5 and this is May 10, so that is four months and four or five days. Mr . Speaker, I tAJould lik~::~ to put a supplementary to the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations. In this particular provision, funding is provided in the L8 May 10, 1990 Vol XLI Minister· of Employment and Labour Relations 1 bud~~et, undE!r subhE!<. ·H: I 4-.1.11, of $9 million, Adjust.m enl Program for Fish Plant Workers, Grants and Subsidies.

Could the Minister of Employrn~::~nt and l...aboul" Relations inform l:he HousE '! hot.JJ much of this $9 mil1:i.on has ber:H·I advanced to FishE!ry Product.s IntetnnationaJ? Mr. Speaker : The Minister of ErnploymE'I'lt Relations. hon . the and Labo ur Ms Cowan: Ye s, a st.c:lternenL lAJjl1 be made in the House regarding that, perhaps tomorrow or Monday. Mr. Speake!": The hon. thf~ MernbE!In for Grand Bank. Mr. Matthews : A fur ·l..hel'' supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

Can thE• Minister inform us, then, if ' there has be E!n any rnon.:O'Y p<'dd to Fishery Products Internat:i.onal? t'l .. \: ... : _____ ~P. .. ~.~ l~ .. f._l.:'_ : ThE! Minister of EmployrnE•nt !~elations. hon . the and Labour Ms Cowan: I will be making a statetTIE!nt r~::'gardin~J the i.s slH', as I said, in the next couple of d ays . Mr. Simms : yes or no? What does l:.ha t mc• an, Ml". Speakeln: The hon. t.he MernbE:!I" fo1n Ginand Bank. Mr·. Matt.hetAJs: Ml" . ~)peai<N ', a supp1ementary t:.o the Pr·etn:iE!r .

As it pertains to the Burgee situation and National Sea Products, if a deal :i.s concluciE :•cl there :it seems l:hal:. Nati.ona1 ~3ea Products is voluntarily wiJ li.nq to leave a community a1location, or some pot"t:ion of fish, fotn the BUI"geo operation. Apparen l:.ly, t.he Provincial Government:. is No. 31 (Afternoon) 1~8

supporting such <:.~ position. LE!t me ask the Premier, if similar aJnlnangerrH:~nts can be madE! for thE• sale of the Grand Bank. Gaul tois. TrE!pasSE!Y or any othe1n plants in the Province, is it notAl the poJ.icy of the Provincial Government to support community allocations of fish? Mr. Speaker: The han. the Premier . Prelllier Wells: The policy of the Go0ernment ·- with respect to al1ocat:i.ons of fish, Mr. Speakc::~r. is that we do not know l.I.Ji th certainty what is the right course.

We have r·ecently w1ni ttE!n the Federal Government tA.Jith a suggestion that this whole question of allocation should be reassessed, in light of the circumstances the Province and Canada find themselves in now as a inesult of this fishery c1nisis. We suggc::~stecl a rnc::~ans of doing a Jneassessme!nt, but that lettein has only gone out in the last few days to the Federal GovernmE!n ·t. so I am hesitant to say any more about it. ·But, by reason of the qUE!Stion being as ked. it lAJould be less than frank for me not to indicatE! that fact:.. It is br:'ing considered. Mr. Simms: (Inaudible).

Premier Wells: Oh, yes. it tA.Jould be (inaudible) . Mr. Speaker: The han. the Member for St. Mary 1 s- The Capes . Mr. Hearn: Thank you. Min. SpeakE!r. I wouJ.d like to foJ.low up on the last question to the Premier. In the event that the netAJ company takes OVE!I" Burgeo and is left with the allocation, if that allocation if there because it tA.Jas l.I.Jith · National Sea and consequentJ.y stayed with the l..9 May 10, 1990 Vol XLI plant, nE!Xt yeaJ" the netAJ company could be looked upon as a new entry into the fishery and. consequently, not qualify for allocation, unless it is designated as a port allocation.

In that ca se, will th(! Pi"ern i.e l" supper t part allocations for o l:her areas, such as lrepassey, Grand Bank and Gaultois? Min. SpeakE:~In: The hon. the PlnE:!ITli.!'.!J" . Pinernier Wr:~11s : No, Min. SpE!dho!l" . What they are talking about is all s u p p o s i t ion an cl s p E! c u l at ·.i. o n·. Mr . Rideout : Not now . (Inaudible) solution . Premier Wells: If he wants the han. Member 1 s answer to the question, he can have it. Ll he 1.1.1ants m'.l.nE:•, I lAJouJ.cl :like t.he opportunity to give it. Some Hon. Members: Oh, oh! Mr . Speaker : Ordc'r. p}IC'dSI?.! Order, please!

ThE! hon. the Pr E!ITJ:iE!r. Premier Wells : The ques tion is all based on supposition and speculation as to what might or could o1n is possible, and I arn not prE!pdrecl to cornrnE>nt on L.hat k:i.ncl of situation. National Sea Products are having s o me d i s c u s s i o n s tAri t h a p r' i v a t e company. and that is up to National Sea Products.

Our rE!sponsibi1i.t.y is to E:•nsuJ"E' that to the rnaximurn extE!nl: that~ "il :. is within ou1n potAJei" to do .so, this Province, the cornrnunities oF this Province, and fishermen and fish plant wori<ers of l:his ProvincE! are not adverSE!J.y affected by any negotiations or dis cuss ions, or any consequPnCE!S that. may come out. No. 31 (A Ft:e1nnoon) 1~9

of those discussions. I am not prepared to speculate on what might, could or should happen. Mr. Speaker: The han. tht:1 Mt:.~rnbeln for St. Mary's-The Capes. Mr. Hearn: Mr. Sp~::1aker, it is quite evident thE! Premier's stand on port allocations is the same as his stand on the Argentia fE!rlny, he is not going to have one.

I would like to ask hirn, then, som~::1 time ago, I raised the issue of Nova Scotian operators corning into Newfoundland and buying up licences, and then, by using Newfoundland fishermen, or Newfoundlanders with full-time fishing licences on the boats, are corning into fish in our SE!Ctors, such as 3K and 3L, b1ninging most of that fish -our fish -back to Nova Scotia for processing. Has the Government followed up on this, as they said they tJJould? If so, what is the result of the fo1low--up? Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Premier.

Premier Wells: I will take the question under advisement, consult with the Minister of Fisheries, and provide the answer at the first possible opportunity. Mr. Speaker: The han. thE! Member for St. Mary's -The Capes. Mr. Hearn: Mr. Speaker, let me ask the Premier one more quE~stJon. Will he confirm that a number of permits have been issued to firm from outside the Province to transship raw, unprocessed product, head-on gutted cod, ac tua1ly. outsidE! the ProvinCE! to provide jobs elsewhere? Mr. Speaker: The han. the Premier. PrE~mier Wells: No, Min. Speakr:1r, I LlO May 10. 1 ')90 Vol XLI wiLl not confirm t".hat.

If thE~ Member has some particular circumstance in rnincl, if hE! wiLl. advise me of it, I ,,.,Ji1l chE:!ck it and I will advise hirn of lAJhat tl·w Government's position is with respect to it. But so far as I know, that is not takinq place and I cannot, therefore. confirm it. Mr. Speaker: for St. Mary's Th~::1 hon. thE:! The Capes. ME:•rnbein Mr. Hearn: Mr. Speaker, I askE•cl the PlnE!mier br:1cause l thought hE! would know. The Minister of Fisheries knows very litl:.le about what is going on, and ca1nes VE!ry little, as is evident from his answers the last few days.

I hope the Premier would l<nolAJ a b'.i.t ITIOinE! about it. I will ask him one rno1ne qUE!sl.·.·Jon related to the fishery. Is he aware that a nurnbc-:!r of a1neas surrounding salmon rivers have been closed to commercial fishermr:1n this ye<:un by DFO? WilJ. the Government. lobby to make su1ne that proper compensation will be provided to the fishermc::1n, 01n I'JaV•?. they already clone it? Because this matter has been well-known for quite some time? ~.!:_:__~'!k.~!:. : The h 0 n . t h E! P I" E:' rn :i H In . Premier Wells: Mr.

Speaker, closing areas around certain 1nivers. lAJher'e there is salrnon enhancement programs underway, is the only possiblr:~ sol.ut.-.:i.on if you are going to tncJnease th(! grot ... Jth and future suppJ.y of sa.lrnon. That: must be done, and I have no doubt that it: is being done in the case of certain rivers. Where fishermen are precluded from operating where l:hey ha1Je For years, then I think the proper course for the fedc::~ral Govc::1r'nl'nE!nt to take is to buy thOSE! l:i.CE!nCeS, No. 31 (Af'l:ernoon) 1no

--'- as they did certain licences in a1neas of the Maritimes, in years gone by, and on the Southwest coast of Newfoundland, where they bought J.i.cencE~s in years gam~ by. It would make good sense, and, yes, the Province would J.obby for the purchasing of such licences. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member for Port au Port. Mr. Hodder: Min. ~)peakeln, I have a question for the Premier, since the Minister of Fisheri<"~s is not here. The former workers from the PiccadiJ.ly fish plant are wondering IAJhat they should do, now that the fishing season is about to start, in a couple of weeks, and they have no jobs?

They know what they can expect from the Federal Government response, which is nothing, and they have askc:,~d rne to ask thE• Mini.ster, or thE:~ Premier, tAJhat thE:~Y can expect from the Provincial Government. There has been no assistance so far from the Provincial Government. Can they expect anything now, e s p e c i a J. 1 y s i n c ·e t h e Go v e r n me n t has known that the p1ant did not have an operator si.nce December? Mr. Speaker: The han. the Premier . Premier Wells: Min.

Speaker, thE:~ people of Port au Port can expect from the Province the same kind of effort the Province tAiill give every other worker of this Province who finds himself or herself Ll.Jithout a job, every possible help we can give them. In addit:ion to that, Mr. Speaker, we are endeavoring to put in place an economic circumstance or situation in this Province where there will be a reasonable prospect of their having an opportunity for a j ol::) in the future. We are trying to work Ll1 May 10, 1990 Vol XLI l::his th1nough, and tAJi.th l:hE! cooperation of the Federal Government, onJ.y with great difficulty.

But to the e~xb:!nt that th<"~y arE! not prE:!par<~·d to clo so, the Province t~.li.l1 have l::o continue i.ts own private course to try and restore the economy of this Province , and we tAli] ·1 cl o that. But. that does not E•nab1e rnE! to guarantee the peopJ.e of Port au Port, who will nol: be IAJOinktng 'in the fi.sh plant in the next few WE:~E!kS, an alternat-ive job at thts stage; I hope, i.n the Yf'!C:'\Ins to come, it will enable us to do so. Mr. Speaker: The han. the Mernb,:=!r for Port au Port. Mr. Hodder: Min . SpPakeln, the Government is too will:ing to accept plant closures when there are solutions.

This is l:he f:lrnst time a processor has not been found, and it. -.is the ·first l~.irr11::! in aJ.most a quarter of a century that the plant lAJi.ll not oper·ate, orn -.it looks J.ike it will not operate. There are soluttons. Now thE! Ministe1n of fishet"ies said that hE! IAJOUJd Visit. lAJith the f>Ol"t au Port Development Association and talk to the f i sh p]ant workers. w·t ll the Prerrrie1n ask hirrt, Oln dJ.inE!Ct h:iJTI, to rrteet lAJi. t.h the people of Port~. au Port, tAI'i. th t he pE!Ople lAlhO arne tl~y:i.ng l::O i<l::!ep the plant going, to t.a1k Lo lht~m f'ace to face? M r .

S p e a k e r : T h C:~ h o n . t h e P 1n E! nd E! 1~ • Premier Wells: If it is necessary o1n beneficial, I tJ..Ji.]l most cel"tainly talk to hirn. And if it is necessary, I would even direct. But I have every confidence that il~. is not necessary for rne to do that. If the Minister of Fishf!t"ies said he would meet with the people of Port No. 31 (Afternoon) R 1. 1

au Port, then I am sure all they have to do is contact him or his office to arrange fo1n the meeting, and I am quite 'confident the Minister would be there. Some Han. Members: Hear, hear! ~.L-~~-~:.9-.~~.r.:.: Thr:1 han. the Member for Port au Port. Mr. thE~ has time Hodder: MinistE!r not done he did. Well, Mr. Speaker, has promised but hE! it, and it is high Mr. Speaker, this is a plant that will surely open again. It is the only real plant at the present U.me, Lhe only feasible plant in Bay St. George:1.

What I would likE! to ask the Premier is, why is it support can be given workers by the Provincial Government, as happened here, and I am no ·t against the Provincial Government because they did it in St. John 1s, and no support, none at all, has been given the inshore plant workers on the Port au Port Peninsula? Why is it a plant which deals with the offshore is given help, and a plant which deals with the inshore is not? No one understands that. I do not understand it. Could the Premier explain it? Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Premier . Premier Wells : I am happy to explain it, Mln. SpE!aker.

The Government will give exactly the same support to fish plant workers on the Port au Port Peninsula or any other part of the ProvinCE! as it tJJill give to St. John 1s or Trepassey or anywhere else. In the case of St .

John 1s, Trepassey, Grand Bank and Gaultois, the permanE!nt closure of those plants was announced - the pE!rrnanE!nt closure - in a tJJay that would see L12 May 10, 1990 Vol XLI the people affected and -Lhe communities affected without any job opportunity or without any immediate prospE!Ct, in the case oF thrE!e oF the corn111uniU.es, with that being the major activ:it .y in the communities, and the Federal GoVE!rnrnent had failE!d mis1:~rabJy in its responsibility to put a program in place, to respond to this, because those plants were closed as a consequence of what the Federal Government had done.

Th.::'y failed miserably l:o r1:i!spond, so the Provincial Government stepped in in the expectal:ion,. I may add, Mr. SpE!akr:'ln, in thr::! expectation that the Federal Governrnont tJ.JouJ.d lnecognizr::! thal. \Ale were doing somel:hing which lAJas their rE!SponsibiJ.ity, and lAJhen it came time to give us credit For our contribution to dealing with the overall problem, they would recognizo th<;lt lAJE! had a11~eady put up $14- mi 11 ion . That is I!J hat:.

IJJe d i d , s t E! p p e d i n a t a t i rn E' IAI h e n i t would have been unbearably harsh to say to · those C01TH11Unit:i.E!~; and those employees, your plant is closed for good, and the Provincial Government has nothing imml::-diately to offer to you . It was a different situation. We hope Piccadilly will open again very soon. WE! 11opE! it tJ.Ji11 opE!n again. I cannot guarantel=! it, but we are certainly working toward that E!nd. Mr. Speaker: The hon. thC'! ME:•rllbE=!r' for Burin - Placentia West. Mr. Tobin: Mr . Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Municipal Affairs.

DUl"ing LJ11~ past year, I guess, since hE! become Minister, he has created much concern and anguish fol" rnany people in this Province by threaten"ing theiTl tAd t:h amalgamation. Now, Mr. SpeakE!r, No. 31 ( Afte1nnoo

n) I~ 1. 2

we all realize a lot of these hearings have been dE!layed, and it has caused the MinistE!r to have to c~ncel hearings in some instances. In other cases, h~~ has had to postpone them because of the frustrations of the people attending. I understand there is now only one leFt to be done, so I would like to ask the Minister when he will be making the results of these hearings publi.c, and t.uht:~n will he be permitting the electi.ons to take place for the councils affected? Mr . Speaker: The han. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. Mr. Gullage: Mr.

Speaker. the Member is quite right. only one hearing remains, Clarenville and Shoal Harbou1n. That hearing IAlill be held in the next week. All other hearings are complete. I fail to see what he means by delays. Certainly, with the exception of two or three that were delayed at the request of the councils. all other hearings proceeded on time. An Han. Member: small . (Inaudible) too Mr. Gullaqe: That is quite correct. In some cases, councils, at our request, ar-ranged meeting halls that IAJE!re too small. They arranged the halls that were too small. not our officials.

The councils. themselves, arranged halls that WE'I"e too small, so we had to reschedule hearings in a larger J.ocation. and tAle did that; we accommodated the numbers of people who wanted to attend the hearings. To answer the specifically, Mr. next phase is question Speaker, to have morE! l~he the LJ.3 May 10, 1990 Vo1 XLI commissioners compl~;!tE! thr::~ baldnce of the feasibil:i.ty Pl"ocess. IAJhich is quite detailed. Th~~ hl':'!al'':ings only involve about 20 Ol" 2 1) pel" cent of the process.

They have to noiAJ look at thE! finances. look at the planning· and the infrastructure that is in place. and all other parts oF the feasibility process. They wi11 then write a report. rhe l':.IAJO commissioners in each case wi11 IAJrtte a repoJ" ·t, and 111akE! recommendations for or against the amalgamation betng considered. Aft e·r t hat r E! port i s I" E! c e i v e cl by me, I will, of course, dialoguE• with the communities invo1vecl. Following that, based on the results, I will make recommendations to Govt:'rnrnE!nt. The final question asked was about the electton date. We delayed elections in some cases.

A lot of the rnunicipalitiE!S t.uent ah1::•ad IAr.i.th their elecU .ons, but A11 Edr::·c tions tAJi.11 take place, at the vrdry latE!St, in November·. I 1Atou1d think the vast majority wi1l be held the second Tuesday in November, as is normal. Mr. SpE!a k E!r: expired. Question P€:'1"iod has Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees Mr . Speaker : The hon . the President of Treasury Board. Mr. Baker: Thank you. Mt" . Speaker. It gives me great pleasure to table Lhe Annual Report of Newfoundland and Labrador Computer Services Limited.

Answers to Questions for which Notice has been Given No. 31 (AftE!rnoon) Rl3

Mr .. Speaker: The hon. the Premier . Premier Wells: Mr . Speaker, it was not by way of written notice but in an oral question by the hon. the Opposition House Leader, he asked questions about the ERC purchasing - his question was several dozens computers valur:~d at $5,000 to $7,000 each were purchased from a rnai.l order firm, whose office is located in Ontario, with no employees or presence here in the Province. No, Mr. Speaker, that is not accurate. What in fact occurred, is, that four separate purchastng occasions have ar·i sen.

On two occasions, DecE:~mbl':'r 1989 and January 1990, local vendo1ns were the successful bidder to the Government Standing Offer Agreement for t"!ither part or all of the bid. In the initial purchase eight computers and work stations were purchased, with a mainland finn being the successful bidder for the total deal. In the most recent purchase of compute1ns, ERC, in March of 1990, seven microcomputers were purchased through three separate bids due to tl1ree types of hardJJJare b(·=dng required.

Five computers were supplied by a Newfoundland firm that manufactures and sells the computers locally, one by a national firm thJnough a local dis tributor, and one by a mainland firm with no local office. The cost of all computeJ"s ran between $3,55'7 E!aCh. T h 1':' s 1':~ con d question he as ked was , or he suggested - in fact hundreds of these same computers have been ordered and purchased by various Government DE!partments in the sarnE! way, not giving local companies who are in the business an opportunity to bid. The tru l~h is, Mr.

SpE!aker, it is true that hundreds of computers have been L14 - May 10, 1990 Vol XLI ordered and purchased by various Government DepartrnE!nts, in fact 466 computers have been purchased by various Departments along with various Government Agencies, Memorial, NLDC and so on. However, in each case l~he Government's Standin~~ OffN' was u s e d , IAii t h 1 o c a 1 f t I" m s l:l 1;! i n g prov id E~cl the nonnaJ. oppoJ" tu ni ty to bid. Petitions Mr. Speaker: rhe han. the Lei'ld•?.r of the Opposition . Min. Ridr:wut: Thank you VE!ry rnuch, Mr ·. Speaker.

I arn VE•J~y pl•"aS<'!cl to have thE! opportunity toclc1y to present a pet:ition sir,1necl by 128 residents of Coachman's Cove in rny constituency. Some Han. Members: H•?.ar, ~li c!dr! Mr. Rideout: I suspE!Ct, Mr . Speaker, 128 names that are on l~his pE!tition is practically every per·son who is E<Ligible to votE'! 'in the community of Coachman's Co•Je. It is a small comrnuni ty, but they have grave concern related to the management of the forestry on the Baie Verte Peninsula, Mr. Speaker.

And I w'ill read the prayer of the petition so that the House is aJAJalnE! of it., and tn particular the Minister. rhe petition is addressed to the House, and it petitions the Legislature to review what has traditionally been refE!rred to as the fishermen's claim aJ.ong the northeast coast, and the Raie Verte Peninsula, in particular . In previous years, Mr. Speaker, going back to, I do not knotAJ, t.he old BotAJateJn Act, I suppoSE!, oF t.he early 1990's the people on the No. 31 (Afternoon) R 14 ·

.. Baie V~rte Peninsula, in particuJ.ar, I do not know if it is anywhere else in the Province, I am not famiJ.iar lAJith that. But around coastal Newfoundland on the Baie Verte Peninsula there was such a thing defined as a three -mile timber limit. And within that three -mile timber limit, known locally, I do not know if it is known in law as this, but known locally as the fisherrnE!n 1 s cla'.irn, Mr. Speaker, local residents lAJel~e pE:~I~mitted to hal~vest timber for building boats, fo1~ buiJ.ding whe:1rves, for building stages. In other words For the personal use of fishermen.

I have attached to the petition, Mr. Speaker, a map that shows the outline of what used to be the fishermE!n 1 s claim on the Baie Verte Peninsula. It used to started off at Partridge Point and come right up through the middle of the Peninsula and then go back out to the sea in the local area known as Slaughterhouse Cove. So all that three mile area between the coastline and the - this line was actually cut, physically cut on the ground, Mr. Speaker, I say to the MinistE!r or to the Premier, I believe, who has indicated he is going to respond.

But this survey line was actually cut on the ground decades ago marking off what was J.ocally referred to as the fishermen 1 s claim. Now, Mr. Speaker, whatever has transpirE!d in legisJ.ation or just in poLicy, I do not know, I have not been able to find out. Whatever has transpired, the Department of Forestry are now demanding, and only this y~~ar as far as I know according to the residents, that within this particular claim a fisherman must receive permits from the Crown . And not only are they demanding penni ts fr·om the Crown, but they L15 May 10, 1.990 VoJ.

XLI are also identifying wht:~re the fishE!riTIE!n can qo to do thE!':i.l" particular harvesting. And in addition to that, Min. SpE!akel", they have also a1lot:ted cornrnE!r·ical cutting areas within that cJ.aim area, so that comrnerica1 logqing operations on the Peninsula are now competing for the srnal1 amount of timber that is remaining within that area that used to be ex c 1 us 'i v E! , I cl o not k n OIAJ if j, t·. is exclusive in latAJ, but .i.t tAJas at least excJ.usive in management, exclusively left For the First ·right of fishE!riTIE!Il, not: onJ.y in Coachman 1 s Cove, but in Flt '~UI" dt:'!

Lys and Coachrnan 1 s CoVE! ancl Wild Cove and other art:=!as that tAJould be aJ.ong the coastline of Lhe Baie Verte Peninsula. So, Mr. Speakt:!r, I cert.ainly support the pl"ayer of Lh:i.s petition. I ask thal: . .i.L bE• l:.ablt:'d and I"E!fl':!rrE!d to the Depa1ntment l:.o which it reJ.ates. And I would hope that the Government wouJ.d seriously consider what has traditionally been the right of those people to have firs l: claim, for fisheries purposes, to that particular forest sector of the Baie Verte Peninsula. Mr. Speaker: T~1e han. the PI"E!ITI:i.l::!l".

PrE!mier Wells : Mr·. ~)pi:!ai<E!r. those tirnber r·eserves carne about in 1904. Originally when the Government build the railway across thE! ProvinCE! LhE!I"e IAJE!I"e exchanges of land as was do r11:~ in thE:~ case of the Canad:i.an Pac:if:i.c, tAJhere the Govt:~rnrnE!n ·t gaUC:! t·:he raiJ.tAJay builde1~ blocks of land in exchange for building the raiJ.way. In rnany cases those blocks of land tAlent right dotAJn to the seacoast, and in sornE! ca sc: 'S they inc1uded title to who1e lakes, the water in the lakes and everything. Then in 1904 a No. 31 (Aftenwon) rns

statute t~o.Jas passed called The Transportation of Timber Act and that provided For the use of these lakes and rivers that were encompassed by these grants of land to the railway, to giVE! people the right to transport timber on the waters and the right of access for fishing to the lakes and so on. It also did one other thing, it crl~ated a reserve For fishermen. I am speaking from memory.

That Act, or an earlier amendment to The Railway Act in 1898, I have forgotten tJJhich now, crE!ated a special reserVE! for. fishermen within three miles of the seacoast, so anywhere where these lands were t~o.Jithin th1nee miles of the seacoast, fishermen had the right to go in and cut timber for two limited purposes, one, for firewood, and the second for timber for building stages and boa t.s for f i s hi n g pur p o s e s . There was a reserve, and thE•n, Mr.

Speaker, whem the original company, it was not in Bowaters time, it t~o.Jas befor'e Bowaters time when the Newfoundland Power and Paper Company built the mill in Corner B1nook, originally the lands that had been transFe1nred into it by the Reid Newfoundland Company were transferred in and there was an exception given From this exemption. An Han. Member: (Inaudible).

PrE!mier Wells: I am just speaking From memory, I tJJould haVE! to have it chE!CkE•d, but in respect to the"~ Bowater lands there may have been an exception given to the company, but I have to go back and check it, but the lands stiJ.l be•long t9 the company, freehold title to the lands bE!J.ong to thE! company, and there may still be a right For those lirnitE!d pul''poses. But I believe in r·espect l:.o the railt.uay lands that went to the company L16 May 10, 1990 Vol XLI there may have been an exemption.

The lands that rE!I'naint:!d t~o.d.th l~eid Newfoundland Company, thE• Jnailway, there was no exception, the fishermen's rights still rema'.ined. That was the case unt· .il the Former Government, of which the hon. gentlc::~tnan opposoi. t:e t;.Jas a Member, introduced a Legislative change that took at.uay thE! J":ights of Fishermen from these lands and reserved and gave thE>rn to l:.he Government. I think you t~o.Ji.] 1 Find legislation, I believe in thE! lab:~ 7 0 s , t h e F o r E! s t M a n a g E'!

JTJ E• n 'L A c t t;.J a ~; in 1974 but I do not knot;.J iF '.it LI.Ja s done then , I bEd i E' v e :i. t. tAli:'t s done in 19'77 or 1978, somc!tirne i.n thE! late 70s. The CoveJ~J'ilriE!nl introducr-d legislat.ion and th'.is HousE! passE•cl it, that took a] 1 the benefits that FishE!J"JJien had in these threE:' rrd]E! rE!SE!rVE!S and took them into the rights of thE' Crown . An Han. Member: Was Lhat Further amendment (inaudible)? Premier Wells: My Jneco11ection i.s that amendment was made at the time that the Government of the day acquired all oF the t"c•rnaining REd.d lots.

Do you rE•memi:JeJn t~o.JhE '!rl they were acquired From Reid Newfoundland Company and there was a debate and discussion? I l:l1ink the han. gent1Pm<H1 tJJC.'IS in L.he Liberal Opposil:ion at the L:itne. Mr. Simms : It was probably in 1974 or something like that . Premier Wells: fhe original Act: was 1974- but this was clone 1at,c:qn when they acquired the Reid lands. I believe it was about 19'77 or 1978 when that was done .

Anyway, at that time, when they acquirc::'d all l:he R~-:.id 1ands back for the Crown that were sti]l held by the Reid Company, t;.Jhat Bot..ua LE!Ins and P1n:ice held JJJas the:iT OLI.Jn No. 31 (Afternoon) 1n6

because they had bought those lands that still with the REdel company in 70s were reacquired it, but remained th.:' late by the Province and at that was legislation passed the timber rights back . time thE!Ine that took So what he !JJas talking about was legislation introduced by the former Government that makes it necessary now for anybody to get a permit. As to what the companies 1 rights are, it. is a little vague. I did know it one time but I would have to go back and check. I believe the companies 1 have the right themselves to the timber. Mr.

Speaker: The hon. the Opposition House Leader. .~.r. .... :._?i!n.L'D.~: Mr. Speaker, I would like to haVE! a few wo1nds in support of the petition on behalf of the petitioners from Coachman 1 s Cove on the Baie Verte Peninsula. I just say in passing that my recollection, my lirni ted knowledge of it, my recollection of it when I was in the Department of Forestry is that the changes that the Premier referred to were not changes implemented by the former Government, no1n by the former, former Government, but changes that were implemented by the former, former, former Government.

I unders ·tand it tJJas under the Moore 1 s Administration that these changes werr :~ made, and if that is thE! caS E! it is not the former, nor the former, former, but ·the former, foriTIE!r, fo1nrner Governm.:~nt, which goes back quite a ways. If he was trying to imply it !JJas the Conservative Administration then why did he not just say so . He implied it was an Administration of which the Leader of the Opposition !Alas part of and Ll7 May 10, 1990 Vol XLI that is not. cor-rect, it is inaccurate. He is wrong agc:~in, as usual. NevE:~rthE!1ess, Min.

Speal<eln, as a matter of fact I thought there had bE!E:~n a furthr:!r' arnE!nclrnE :!nt. proposed, if not passed. An Han . Member : (Inaudibl

e) the Forestry Department only started doing that this past winter. Mr. Simms: YE!S . I understood and I thought that there was an amendment proposed or passed E!Ven latE!r, that corl"ected the situation, because th•:!se kinds of complaints apparently hc'lve only been developing ov er the last year . An Hon. Member: That is right . Mr. Simms : Complaints are only corn:ing fot"Watnd in the last yE•iH'. NeverthelE!SS, it does not. hPlp t.h•:! people of Coachman's Cove to argue Ol" to blame. fhe point is, they wouJ.d like to see it corre cted.

It is in that light that I am speaking in support of Lhe petition presented by the Leader of the Opposition. It is too bad that the Premier would not let the Minister of For'E!stry rE!Spond to thE! petiL'.i.on. It. was directed to hoim. Ped1aps he could have enl:i .ghtened us a] l and told us what the situation is . I have no doubt tha t he know s just about everything that the Premier just said for the la st Five minutes. I dare say he has that down pat anyu.1ay and Pl"obabJ.y could have added mo1ne. 13u l:. l:.h•?. point is, h~~ is bt":i.ng:ing in net;..J legislation hi111selF nmJJ, th•:!

Forestry LegisJ.ation, and perhap s before that legislation is finalized, because• it: :is not. yE!L finalized obviously it is going through the review process, perhaps there rnighl: bl~ an No. 31 (Afte1nnoon) rn7

opportunity, if it is not in the new lE!gislation, I do not know if the Minister knows if it is included or not, but" if it is not, perhaps there might be an opportunity during the legislatiVE! revJew process to include some kind of an amendment to correct the situation. So that is the whole point of the mattE!r, lAJe can argue until the cows come horne as to who is to blame, whether it was the Tories or the Liberals. I do not think that is important from the point of view of the people of Coachman's Cove. An Hon. Member: (Inaudible). Mr .

Simms: Well, you know, i.f in fact it was a Conservative Administration, so what. It~ lJJas not onE' that I was part of, that I recollect. It was not one that he was part of. There may have bE ·e n somebody here, I do not knolJJ, lJJho might have been back there in those days. Even iF we were, I mean, I lAJould have no hesitation in accepting responsibility for it., if it was the w1nong thing to do . So what. But the point_ is that now we are looking for it to be corrected. And I hope that is thE! point thE! Minister will look at it ·From, in that light, to try to correct it, if it is possible. Thank you, Mr.

Speaker . Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Premier . Premier Wells: With the permission of the House, a recollection comes back, I guess as a Function of age it takes a while For it to come back. My recollection as to what happened tAJith the legislation is that the GovernmE!nt took back everything that lJJas then in the Reids, but Uwy could not takE! back what was then the Bowater land.

So the L18 May 10, 1990 Vol XLI irony of- it is, that pE!Opl::! have a c c e s s to t hE! 1 and s t hat a r· E· ~-, t i 11 held by Kruger for firewood and boat timber and stage purposes, but they do not have acces s to thoSE! of tl'w J.ands that IAIE!nt_ bcHk to the CroiAJn. So ti'H':! legislation cou1d not take back ·Uw Jnt<_;Jhts of the Paper Company. They s ti11 o1.un thE! U.rnber !night s j_n that. cl.lnea ., 'in thE! thr(:H:' 111ile 1-.irnit, but_ it. lAJas subject to this right of fishermen. That s l:i .Jl applies -.in the~ caSE! of non--CY'OIAJn land.

I L applies in the case of the Company land but not the Crown J.and. Orders of the Day Mr . Baker: Motion 8, Mr. Spoak~:!r . Mr. Speaker : Matton 8. fhE ! hon. the MirltstE'In of JusUce, to have leave to introduce a Rill entitlE!d, "An Act lo Anlc !nd The Human Rights Code, 1988." (13 L11 No. 4·6) . Calnlnj_ed. On rnotton, BLI.l No . ('16) n!acl c:t first time, order'E!d r'(::!i:~d a second time on tomorrow. Mr . Baker: Motion 9 . Mr. Speaker: Motion 9 . Motion, the hon. the Mi.n:isl~E!r of Justice to tnt1noduce a bj 11, "An Act To Amend The CoJillnissiorH:•J" For Oaths Act." (Bill No. 4'7). Car-ried.

On motion, Bill No . (4-7) re c:~ d a first time, orderod r'ead a se cond time on tomorrow. On motion, i_tself into on Supply, Chair. that. the HOUSE:' rt=!SOlVE! Committee of the Whole Mr. Speaker left: Lh1;:! No. 31 ( Af'lE !r noon) RJ.8

.:;.lt. Mr. Chairman: Order please! Mr. Simms: Sure, no problem, I wiJ.l speak fOJ" five minutes unU.J. the Premier comes back. Mr. Chairman: The Han. the Opposition House Leader. Mr. Simms: Thank you, Mr. Chair·man . Mr.

Chairman, I believe, I am not sure what the clock says now in terms of the overalJ. tim<~' for the EstimatE!S in this ar·ea, I think origina1ly when we. star l:ed we had tLuenty-four and a half hours, and I believe th•:!lne may be about nine hours gone. so that should leave us with about fifteen Oln so hou1ns remcdning to scrutinize the Estimates of the Executive CounciJ., the Premier's Office and we11, just about every Depalntm€:!nt in GovernrnE!nt fol" that matter. I think it is gen•?.ra1ly nOtAl Widely aCCE!pted, eVE!n by the Chair. that t..ue can debab:! or discuss any matter at all..

It is not specifica1ly related directly to Executive Council EstimatE!S. And the person that ensu1ned that was the case was the PlnE!Sident of Treasury Board. WhE!n I was doing rn y duty as his critic and J"-a is E• d some detailed techn1cal questions. I happened to mention the word fish in one of my questions. A simplE! wo1nd fish, and before you knot..u it, the next three hours. a1l heJ.l broke loose. The place carnE! apart. Even the Minister of Social Services got a chance to get up and speak. which we were deJ.ighted to see or hear for a change. So, Mr.

Chairman, it is valid now that we can speak about a~ything. Now, that was not my intent on that evening, as the Government House Leader knows. We were moving along quite nicely at ou1n own pace for six hours or so Ll.9 May 10, 1990 Vol. XLI asking questions - getting no answers, asking questions getting no answers, ask1ng questions - getting no answers. So maybe it was a blessing in disguise, to US€~ a rE!Cent fclVOlnJt:e term of the Minister of Fisheries, maybe it was a bless:i.ng in disguise that the fishE!riE•s debatE! broke out.

Because it gave the GoVE!rnment House L•~adE!r' much ITlOJne tirn~:! to get h:i.s thoughts toqethE!I" and to get his answers together and to get thE• ofFi.ci.a1s clown :in Executive Council to scamper around tlnyi.ng to get sorn'"' anstft.JE!lns for him to the questions l:.hat. I asked. And I sti11 have them listed hE!I"e. And tht~l"~~! a1nE! qu:ite a fE!lAJ that I arn r:!XpE!Ct:i.ng htrn t.o get back to me thi"OUghoul:. th~~ day on, I guess, and ton:ight. We sH:. ton:i.ght do we not?

Wc!ll, I am assuming that the Plnestd~:!nl: of The Council. will be true to his word when he said we will be sitting all this week and all next. 1..ueek. Monday, TUE!sday and Thursday nights. I assuJTIE! that:. ·is lAJhat. hr::• has in rnJ.nd, un1ess h<;! has ch<Hl<].C~cl his rnind and that rnay not. happE!n. but if that is the case, then tonight would be a sitting night. An Han. Membe1n : (Inaud:i.b1E·) . Mr. Sirnrns : fl"iday. no I do no l.. think that would be a good "idea.

But, maybe I CiH1 just t.oss ouL a fet..u rnorE! 'l:op:i.cs, ancl ~;ee iF it t..ui11 spark anybody :i.n l".:hE! opposoi .tE• side to getting up and havtng a few words :i.n thts debate. Because we have 1ots of t.irne lE!Fl: .. in l.he debate. And we had a good discussion on tho F:ishE!Iny, and I arn sur·e~ WE! t"J:i1'1 have rnore as t.ilfiE• goes on. But I wonder if the Finance, who is now House after b~:!ing au..1ay No. 31 ( Af t.e1nnoon) Minis l:.er back in Fr'OITI a oF thE! day R19

or so, no doubt on Her Majesty 1s Service as HE!r Loyal MinistE!r of Finance, I would like to see him participate in this Estimates debate, because it is a very good debatE!, ten m:inutE!S per pE!rson is a great opportunity fot~ people to get on theiln fE•et . I lAJOLJ1d like to see some of the backbenchers over there get up, particularly the Member for Placentia and the Member for LaPoile. I would J.ike to see them get on their feet and tell us about the year round service to Argentia.

That is an interest:ing topic and I really likE! to hear both their points of view, because we know full well they are differing points of view. But From the Minis te1~ of Finance 1 s perspective, I understand that yesterday thE! Minister· may be aware by now that the President of the St. John 1 s Board of Trade, I think according to the news reports yesterday, I understand thE! President, spE!aking on behaJ.f of the Board of Trade, the business community in the Province, rnade a prE!tty gloomy prediction about the future of the Province. An Hon. Member : at it . They arc> always Mr.

Simms: a liAJay s at know they sure they YE!S, I know they are it. WelJ. I can 1t say I arE! aJ.t,.Jays at it. I am have An Hon. Member : (Inaudible). Mr. Simms: Well that is why I want the Minis tE•r to speak in the debate. As I understand it, and this is a serious matter now, this is a business community. And they did not bJ.arne i.t aJ.l on the Provincial Government or anything. I do not want thE!ITI to get defensive right away and L.20 May 10, 1990 Vol XLI testy. They did not talk about that, HlE!y tali<E•d about inflr . .d ~'.i.on and all those kinds of things.

But they did say, I say t.o l:he Minister of Finance and to the Pt~E!sident of TrE!asut~y Boar·d, they did say that retail sales were either down or projected to be down this year. They also did say that construction was down, big construction tAJas down. The y hdd• a conCE!rn OVE!r Hibernia. A 1 ot of concern oVE!r whether Hibc.::·rnia tAli 1.1 be finalized. And thE!Y rE·fet"enCE!d the significant increase in the number of bankruptcies this year over last y<~ar. They atnl'::' quitE! concernE:~d about that.

And incleE!cl, as I understand it, Lhey p1noject :ed a recession for the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, and Canada. So it is pretty gloorny slufF, ancl I was hoping that the MinistE!t ' oF Finance, who is thE· PtnovincE•' s iHH~ the Government 1 s chiE!F economic 1 s spokesperson, would stand in the debate and try t:o a1lay our F1''i :~rs and try to maybe prE!ach someLhtng a little more positive, because quite frankly I do not like to hear all negative news eith ur, E!Ven though I can SE!E' hotAJ FJI'·ople in Opposition can easily 9et attunE!d to that appt"oach. But .

I try not to get that way .iF I ca n do i.t:., but it is very har ·cl to clo when you are in Oppos.i.t.ion. 13ul: it doE:~s not do anyth:i.ng fot" t.he economy if, in patnt.icu1ar, FH:!oplE! such as thE! Pr 'E!SiclenL of ' Uw Boar·d of Trade are going around predicting recessions ancl talking about retail sales being drastically down and so on . So hopefully the Minister oF Finance rnight come to h:i.s F"'E!l: and takE! tE!n minutes, he doi'::'S not have to sp•::!ak For an hour, and giv<? us his vir::!tAJs on t.hE! economy of Newfoundland and Labrador. I No. 31 (A f lE•t"noon) R20

would likE! -to hear flnom, as I say the Mernbr:~r fo1n PJ.acenti .a, and the Member for LaPoile, and -the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation on -this whole question of the year r·ound service to Argen-tia. Because I hear d.:~bate on it for the J.ast several weeks, and I hear, as usual - as there are with most issues in Newfoundland.- two sides. Mr. Hogan: notJJ? Do you want to hear it Mr. Simms: Yes, I would likP to hear it now, as soon as I am finished my few remarks I would love to hE!ar' the Mernbe1n - okay I will sit down, Mr. Chairman, the Member for Placentia would like to speak. Mr.

Chairman: The hon. the Memi:H?.r fo1n Placentia . ~.r ... :_. ____ _tj_Q..9._~ : M r . Chair rna n , I a rn delighted to have this opportunity to address the concerns of the hon. the Member for Grand Falls. And I hopE• he does not mind if I refer to my notes because this is a very important subject - I want notes, because I tAJill be here all day if you want me to on Argentia. I would like to comment probably, Mr. Chairman, on the various options and on the report that was submitted regarding the year round service into Argentia. As the House and Members know, Mr.

SpE!aker, thE!Ine were three options: Option No. 1 tJJas an extended seasonal service from June 1 to October 3, aimE!d primarily at peak pasSE!ngE!r periods, and with somE~ limited freight capabilities. Option No. 2, Min. Speaker, was a year round freight service with passenger capability provided during the summer season. Option No. 3 was a year round freight and L21 May 10, 1990 Vol XLI passenger capacity service with additional provided during the summer season. Mr. Simms : ThE•re WE•re ·thr·~~E! options. Mr. Hogan: tE:~n minutes? Should I take the full Mr. Simms: Yes. Min. Hogan: ALl d.ght.

OpUon No . 1. is an extended service From Jun~;:~ 1 to Octobe1n 3, and that is aimed primarily al. th(• pt::!ak passenger period or tourist period. A n H o n . Me rn bE! r : W a s that. t a ld n ~1 on a seasonal extension? Mr. Hogan: That is a seasonal extension, yes, and with the capability of taking freight during that period also. Okay, limited, designated amount of freight. Option 2. is the year --round freight service tAri.th passenger capability provided during the summer s~:'ason. Not;.J I mtght aJ.so add hE=!re, Ml".

SpE•ai<E~l", that this particular option was an interjection by I guess the De part rn e n t of T ran s p or t . I l~ IAI as not one that was ever explored locally and certainly not expounded by anybody west of Gander, probably not as far as Gander, and thts tAJas put. in, <:ls l said, by the Department officiaJ.s. Option. 3. uih:lch lAklS the one expounded upon and advocatE!d by those lAJho J:i.uecl, worked and do business on the east coast, and in particulcll" in the Argentia area. rha t. tJJas a year-round freight and passenger service with additional capacity provided during the summer season. An Han.

Member: Additional what? Mln, Hoqan: Add:i. t.:i.onaJ. capacity No. 31 (Afternoon) I~ 21

provided during th~::~ surnmE!r season for passengers. Very basically, that particular option grew from our suggestion thal: th~::~ . new boat would target their marketing at tourists during the tourist season and frE!ight during the off-season. so what you wouJ.d do is, you would haVE! passengE!l"S and frEd.ght to a limited degree in the tourist season and in the non tourist season it would be targeted at freight with some passenger service. Mr. Simms: Is that Option 3? Mr. Hogan: That 1 s basically t.uhat Option 3 is, yes. Mr. Simms: Is that the one the Argentia group - are advocating? Mr.

Hogan: That is bEdng advocated, yes. I do not bel.ieve option 2 is being addressed by anybody. I think, Mr . Speaker, I might also add and wil.l interject here l:hat I feel sornet.uhat qualified because we have been dealing with this subject for many, many years, probably as far back as 19'74-.

I might also add at this particular time too, that, some people might want to argue that this is a constitutional or a legal thing or a whatever, but I think it always has been and is at the stag1:;! where it. is strictly a political decision, and that is something that we advocated all along and the latest report by ADI Consultants bears that out. Year-round services received the support of almost every municipality in eastern Newfoundland and indeed of many From outside of that particular region. All these municipalities including the cities of St.

John 1 s and Mount Pearl are on record with the Federal Department of L22 May 10, 1990 Vo1 XLI Transport in Ottawa as favouring year--round service. As lAJell, both labour and the business sector, sever·al of the rnajor sl·tipp1:~t"S, importers, trucking cornpaniE!S have communicated to Ottawa thE•ir written support. Included in this vast gr·oup is the St. John 1 s Board of Trade, by tl.·w uJay, and I lAJould also interject her1:l, Mr.

SpE~akE•r. that. at more rE•CE!nt mE!d ling s. and I believe possibly l:hE! one t.uhich uJas hE•ld in Pot ~ t: aux f:lc:ts ques yesterday, where the unions and workers themselves advocate the service into Argentia. I would suggest that everybody got a posiU .on on Uti.s one, ~1r. Speaket", inc1uding rny ft~iend Frorn Placentia - Burin . Anyt.uay :i. F he would stay quiet for a few minutes, I lAJill Finish my LiLl:lE! dissertation UJhJJ.e I arn on a qoocl track. Consequent .1y, it.

IAJill be no surprise to anyone that the people in the Argentia area are supporting the year ---round sN·vjc(:! option 3, · which I have dono and which was considered by Lhe ADI report. We have boen very slt"ong in advocating this position, Mr . Speaker, and t.ue haVE' met . tAli Lh l:h1:! Minister in Ottawa and we have rnet with vat"ious groups in the nor··t·:h Sydney arE!a and WE' rnet, as l sa:i.d, with thE! Minister of Transport . in Ottawa on on April 23. We were sort of disappointed in the report in out" area, Mr.

C~1airrnan, becausE:~ tt did not ITktkE! any firm recornrnendations, nor· does it adequately ref1E•ct. the tremendous, I guess, positive reaction of all the parties that I mentioned earlier. HotAJeVE:~r, an analysis of the repot~t cannot but conclude that the case For the year round service is strongly made. And for· this t~eason I am pleased uJtth the l"E:'POJ"ts f:i.ncl-:i.ng. If the Minister 1 s decision, which No. 31. (Afternoon) R22

I think is a political one in Ottawa, if that Minister's decision is based on tAJhat is good for this particular Province, I have every reason to believe and to be optimistic that the oVE!rall benefits to the Province are many. And I would like to E.>rnphasize that the people in the Argentia area with the support of everybody on the eastern pat"t of the Pl"ovince arE! pi"ornoting thE:' interest of the Province and no·t just the Argentia area; an analysis of the report c1ei-lrly indicates that the benefits of a year round service apply to all sectors of thE!

Province incJ.uding Port aux Basques and the whole west coast. And to begin with there wouJ.d be a more positive impact on tourism, E!Xpanding the fE!ri"Y servicE:' at Argentia would increase by about 7,000 passengers; and the total number of travellers that would visit the Province, and probably increase the entire system probably 16,500 as indicated in the report. And this, Mr. Chairman, would encourage lAJhat we call the loop trip, where trctveJ.lers enter via one pol"t and <:>xit via the other.

And the impact of the nE!W set"vice and thr:' loop travel pattern would be quite positive and would extend the travel season in the spring and late faJ.J. Already, Ml". Chairman, I have heard from, as a mattE!r of fact, from sources that arE! closer to the City of St. John 1 s than mind and other sources, and confir·med by Marine Atlantic in a phone call yesterday, that they are having many calls becauSE! of rumoUJ"S afloat that thE! year J"ound service might happen, is that they are getting many calls now to put on tour buses, late this Fall ric,1ht up until. early December, as a matter of fact.

L23 May 10, 1990 Vo]. XLI Anyway, Mr. Chairman, this l"oute aJ.so has, of aLl. traveJ. patLet"ns. tht:~ highest nUinbeJ" of destinations, ti'H:! J.oop paU:.E!rn, to be visited, and should therefore be promoted as the most FavourabJ.e tour route to the west coast. In addition to the increase in pleasure travelJ.ers the new .,ervice would incrr..:~ase th~~ numb1:~r of coach tour operations that I just mentioned by al~. least l~.hi1"l~.y visits or more annual.ly. AJ.ready, Mr. Chair·man, ·they had ovE•r 'll"JC::!nty requests and the service is not even ··being started to _go on unl:il December.

The increased tourism effect t.~Jill crE•ate a rnin'irtlUln ol forty-··eight to fifty jobs, most of I"Jhich wou1d be in the l"Jes t coast region. This is a fact-finding report now for thE! D1:!partmenl~ oF Transport, not my Figures. Needless to say the increase in tourism wou1d have a significant positive economic efFect. Shipping and trucking Fil"ll'lS arE! most in t erE:'StE!d in yeal" l"ouncl rather than seasonal opE•ral~.ions at ArgE!ntia, for obvious l"easons.

Savings due to lower round trip costs, avai1abi1i t y of bet"ths f ot" truckers, e1iminat.ion oF hazc.u·clous winter driving on the Trans Canada Highway, and t he abi.l 'i ty to t.ak1~ the mandatory E!'ight houJ"s t. i tTIE' or· r on board, allowing them a Full aLlotment· of Udrteen houi''S of driving. The service wou1d result in a significant improvement to ti"Uck traFFic freight FloiAJ i:HI"oss the Province and produce ouera11 road cruiser· bE!nefits of· OVE!r $6 million to be passed on to the consumer. Mr. Chairman : Order p1ease! The han. Member's time is up . Mr. Simms : There is lots more time later on .

He will do

Chapter No. 31. (Aft.E!rnoon) R23

2 later on. He can get up any time for ten minutes. Mr. Chairman: Order please! The Han. The Opposition House Leader. Mr. Simms: Thank you, Min, Chairman . I was appreciative of the· well-meaning words of the Member For Placentia, but I was specifically interested in his position on the issue as it rE!lates to thE! report commissioned by the Federal Government. He did give me the information I was looking for early on in his cornmE!nts wl1en he described Options 1, 2, 3, for me and said his choice is Option 3 and that is IJJhat the people in his area support. An Han. Member: ·------·.-·--- (Inaudible). M r .

Simms : Yes , and the res t of the explanation he gave me were all the other groups that support their position, and the reasons for it, and a very good explanation for that reason. Now, I raise the issue because I heard one day on CBC Radio Noon, the topic being discussed IJJhen the Member for Placentia was the guest, and, lo and behold, IAJho calls up in the middle of the program to monopolize the Member for Placentia's time, but his old colleague and rival, his near sea ·t mate, the Member for LaPoile, who, at the timE! he called in, started giving another side to the story.

And I thought it was extremely important that he did, becausE• it was a side of the story and I thought he was very articulate in explaining that side of the st01ny. And it IAJas not thE! s·idE:' of the story, I say l:o him, by the L24 - May 10, 1990 Vol XLI way, that most people have hea1nd. They have heard the sjde of the story advocated by the Placentia group and the Member for Placentia, who is in the press just about every second day on behalf of that group, talking about his reasons for supporting it.

But the position that the Member for LaPoil.e E!XplnE!Ssed thc.,,t_ day in that program, I do not think, quite frankly, has gotten out, and I Found it lci.ncl of intE!lnE!S ling. So sincE• we haVE! a -FolnUifl he1ne to .d '"bate i s s u e s o f t hi s n a t u r e , which are of im0ortance to the Province - tourism generally, transportation SE!InViCE!S gc:•neJ"cllly, are important to all sectors of the economy, are important to people, arc->. impor-tant. to businesses.

And, since we have had an explanation by l:he Me1nbt::'r for Placentia of his cho:l.cE!, I Lt.Jas hoping and I do hope that the Member for LaPoile will take advantage of the opportunity for ten minutes or seven minutes - An Han. Member: (Inaudible). Mr. Simms: Okay, that is fine, to-o~-"-li"l:i--t- I d 0 li 0 p e he IAJi ] 1 s l: a n d and explain thE! othE!r sido of thE=· story. I would Jikr:! l:o know clE!arly what is the diFferE!ncE· :in the two positions and whr~t :i.s the spE!Cific argurnE!nt?

You knotJJ, sE•E! if you can bring it: do~;.m to l:hal:, so people can understand rather than argue IJJi th each other. I hey !Ali 11. u n d e r s tan d the c on l. E! n L i o u s issue. FollOIAring thE:~ MernbE!r for LaPoile, I would hope that the Mins:i.ter of Justice, a Cabinet MinistE!r, a MinistE!r of the Crown, Lt.Jho represE:~nts a part of the Cit.y of Cor·ner· Brook, whosE! Mc'1yot~ has strongly opposed option th1"1~e, as No. 31 (After·noon) [011

advocated by the Member for Placentia, I beli.eve, suppo1nts thE! position of the Member for LaPoile - I am not absolutely certain what the Member For LaPoile 1 s position is, but we will hE!ar it today, for sure - but certainly opposes the position advocated by the Member For Placent.ia. So, I understand the MinistE!r oF Justice IAJE~nt to the mainland, somewhe1ne ·- -~-~--I.QP. . i ... IJ : 0 t t a tAla . Mr. Simms: -Ottawa, or wherever- Mr. Tobin: Friday. Mr. Simms: -Friday of last week. Mr. Tobin: Took a stand against Argentia. M r .

Simms : A n d I gather that. he told the - was it the Federal Minister, or just ofFicials? Mr. Tobin: The Federal Minister, I think. Mr. Simms : We11, whoever he rnE~t with, the Federal people, that he supported strongly the position of the people of the west coast, led by the people from Port aux Basques, I guess, the Municipal Council of Port aux Basques and the Member for LaPoile, I presume, who supports his Cound.l -··I arn not quite sure if he does or not, maybe he does not.

But I understand that the Minister of Justice, who now sits in the middle, between the Member for Placentia, who has this position and the Member For LaPoile who has that position - I think the Member For LaPoile's position might be over here in the middle, so111ewhere, I am not quite sure yet if he has carne out strongJ.y 1..25 May 10, 1990 Vol XLI opposing the lobby of the PJ.acentia group. I a1n not certain. He can tell us today. The Minister of Justice - it would be interesting to hear what his position is, becaus1:~ he is a Minister of the Crown and, obviously, he is speaking as a Minister of thE!

Crou..m, aH:.hough I understand the Minister of Transportation yesterday, at the meeting in Port. aux Basques, l:olcl the group, 'Oul" posi.Li .on i.s that we do not have a posil::ion at:. the moment, 1 whi.ch is not unusual fo1n this Government. I l:h:ink h1:> sa·id, 'We will have a posi.tion by the r:~nd oF May or l:hE!reabouts. 1 Perhaps he has taken hi.s advi.ce from the Minister oF Finance.

The end of May wi1·1 co1ne and t:he Minister of Finance will advise hirn, now tr:=!l1 thE•rn :i.L lJJill bE~ another coup1e of tAJeeks. rhe ~~dillE' kind of adviCE!, I suspect, he has given to the MinisLer oF Education, take anothE!I" coupJ.E• of weeks, then when the HousE• closes we wi 11 announce a 11 t h :i. s s tuff . The Recreation Capital Granl:s IAJ"i.11 be announced after the House closes, the location oF the Central NewFoundlan~ University IJ.Jill be announced afb:!ln l:he 11ouse closes. Anyway, Mln.

Chairrnan, I l!.Jill leave it at that and SC:!~'> iF Lhe Member for LaPoi1e is going to have a FeiAJ tAJords notJ.J, or' is I'll:> going to tAJait? He i~; s t.·i] 1 go·.ing to wait. Well let mE! throtAJ oul:. a few other topics then. We wil1 knotAJ what to expect on l:.hat topic. Tha ·t i.s a quod one fol" discussion. I IAJou1d Like to hear frorn thE! Minister of Educat:i.on, by the way, to scO!e if he l!.Jil1 conFirm the announcement by the Minister of Forestry, who yesterday, according to thE! news headlinE!S on VOCM at 7. 45 am, announced that the Government - I arn sorry, where No. 31 (AFternoon) R25

is it - that was the one where he announced l:hat GovernmE!nt supports th€:! watel" tl"€:'atrnE!nt plants, so thE! Minister of Municipal Affaii"S can tell me about that. Here it is. It was on the VOCM radio news at 1 o'clock, Graham Flight says the decision on the location for Memorial Central Campus will be known in a couple oF weeks. Now let me go back to th e un'iversity decision. It tJJas delayed not once, not tlAd ce, to use the lAJOJ"ds of a famous former, former I former Premier I and it lAJas dE!layed not three times - three times was it? An Han. Member : (Inaudible). Mr.

Sirm 'ns : We11 1 this is the third dE!lay is what I arn saying. It was delayed twice before and this is an indE•finit.e delay. The Minister of Education makes the announcement that we should not have said what we said. We should not have done it. We should not have built up the people's hopes. He said this· timE! we are going to do it right so the decision will be indefinite. It will be an indefinite time beFore we make the decision. That is what he sai .d. He said we tAJi11 not set a date or a time on the decision. Did he not say that?

However, his colleague the Minister of Forestry I yesterday I goes out and says the decision wi11 be made in a couple of weeks which would bring us into - Some Han . Members: (Inaudible). Mr.

Simms : WE!l1, that is what thE! news headlines say, so I want to ask thr:· MinistE!r of Education if he will confirm, stand in this debate sometimE!, and spE !ak without taking the advice of his colleague, the Minister of Finance, who would be the last person in the world you would take 1.26 May 10, 1990 Vol XLI advice from, and tell us if he will confirm the announcement of ti1C:~ M:i.n:i.stE!l" of FOrE:!Sti"Y that:. l:.he decision on th1:! loca ·tion Fol" l:hE! untversity will b1:! madE! by May 24 · which is two weeks, or will it sti] 1 bE! dE!layed further, and tAd11 it. in fact be delayed unl:il aFLer the House closes, and accept: the advice of l~he MinistE !r' of Finance?

That is something For th~e~ Minis t:er of Education to Jnull OVE!I", and I hopE· he tAroiJ] stand :i.n his place and say a few words. These are just a few topics of interest and we would 1.-.ike to hear some discussion. Now, if the VOCM 1 o'clock nE!IJJs yester'day quoh::>cl the Minister of EmpJoymenl and Labour Relations pi~operly, cli.d shE• say that she is pleaSE!d OU .. at;_Ja ts proposing some changE·s in i.ts planned legi slation on unemployment- insur·ance? Did ~;hE! say, Pat Cot.uan i.s pJ.ec:;tsE·cl OLLat;_Ja is propos-ing changes :in tts planned legislation on unemployment insurance? Mr.

Tobin: She cannot l"€:'11WinbE•r . ShE! -.is like thE! PrE•rrd.r::•i", she forgets. Mr. Simms: Obv-iously, Lhe Minister of Employment has been counsell,?d and ·advised, do not respond to l:.hese little taunts, little questions . I know, I can Lel1. I hope, since she :is a public figure and a M-inister of thE!

CrotAJn, ceJ"tainJy ab1e to speak on her fe,?.t, I would hope l:ha t. she wiJ 1 participate in Hd s Es t.i .rna tes D1:>bate, and I would 1ikE! l:o h:,:•ar an E:! 1 abo r· at i o n of IJJ h a t s he lllt:! <Ht s , because everything I ever heard hE:'r say certain1y led rnc to believe that you were violently opposE:~d to the lE!gislat:i.on . NotAl, she nods. That. l1.Jas her pa s i tion. So , what d :i. d s I-re s a y y e s t E! 1~ d a y L o VOCM n1:>ws to give th€:'1TI rE!ason to rE!pOJ"t that Pat COtAJC:ln -.is plr::•asecl No. 31 (Afl:er'noon) F~ 2 6

Ottawa is proposing changes in its planned legislation on unt=:~mploymc::'nt insurance? I am su1ne she will take the opportunity to explain her pas i U.on, and if not we will have to ask VOCM news to produce the tape, but why did th€•y quote her that way if she did not say it? Mr~ Speaker: Order, please! The han. Member 1 s time is up. Mr. Simms: Is it, Mr. SpE:~aker? I have a few more topics to throw out. Unless somebody is. ready to jump up, I can throw a few more out, just food for thought. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member for Stephenville. Mr. K. Aylwar·d: I was not going to stand.

I was intently listening to the posiU.ons thE! Opposition House Leader was outlining, and the very articulate and concrete and substantial debate that was going on, and how he stimulated the debate. I must say, I allAJays enjoy it, Mr. Speaker. I want to get up in this debate for just a couple of minutes to go over a couple of issues that I think are very important. I was reading this morning the number of editorials concerning the Premier 1 s appearance at the Meech Lake hc::~arings.

I must say, the list of ~=!ditorials From across Canada that arE• suppo1nU.ve of the Premier 1 s approach and the position taken by this Government, are many in number and the way they are put is very reasonable. fhe approach we have taken seems to now be - I think maybe we are convinced it is the right approach to take.

I just. want to say in 1..27 May 10, 1990 Vol XLI this dE!bate, that is VE!Iny wide-ranging, that the Premier 1 s approach and this Government 1 s approach is now being well received across Canada, not only by the national media, but to othE!r provincial PrE•miers, who are now starting to come around, and arE! ptnoposing SOTIII:;! possibJ.E! solutions to the national debate that is underway at this prp~;ent time. I must say, Mt". Spc:~akE•tn, "it is a pleasure to see t.his CoVI?InnlnE!nt taking such a leading role in trying to Find a so1.ul~.ion to l:hE! stalemate that has carnE· about.

A number of the editorials out1.ine the position of this Government that there is a f 'h!Xibility l:hE!re and that other provinces should take the same. So F1norn tAJal:chi.ng the nelAJS J.ast. n'l.ght and the J.a~>t Few days, I would hope that the Prime Mints tE!r IAJi.ll conuenE! a conference to discuss these matters in a reasonable fashion that would see this national debate and this problE!!Tl come to a reasonable solution. I think reasonab1.eness must prevail if that is to happen. I wanted to make note of that because I watched the Prime M:l.nister last night on thE! nE'!lAJS.

Again, there SE!E!I'nS l:o bE• lllOF'U oF trying to crE!ate an atmosphE•rE! that we have no choice but we must go through with this, ins Lead of 1 Why don 1 t tAJe sit down and SN! iF we can negoti.f:lte and try t.o coiTIE! up lAJit.h a cornp1nomise. 1 Noting l:.hE! Western Prem'l.er 1 s proposaJ.s, again, they are try ·ing to sl:d .ke out and bring some kind of compromise to i·t, so I would hope thE:~ Prirne MinistE!r and the:' FE!cleral Government will see light there and try to get some reasonableness to pervade in this discussion. I t:hink it is very impor·tant that No. 31 (Afternoon) 1~2 7

this be done and that that occur. I must say, I arn very supportive of the approach, and the cornrnE!ndations that have been given From the variety of leading national editors acinoss Canada arE! very welcome. I think it put this Province on a very high plateau when it comes to constitutional discussions and when it comE'!S to debate on most issues across Canada. I believe also that in relation to this, the fishery problems we are experiencing right now should be taken Vl:!ry seriously" by the Prime Minister and the Federal Government. It doesn't appear that they are.

You would think the representations that have been made, not only frorn this Province but From other provincE!S, that they would very seriously be taking representations from us, but t:hey seem to be just wanting to go on their own path. That is most unfortunate, as seen by thP package that has been announced in the last couple of days. It is very unfortunate, and many people now see what the attempt has been to do with the fishery in this Province, mast u nfortu nate ly, very little. But the Focus of it has not been substantiated and has not been supported t~.Jith proper fund'.ing in which way to go.

So the FedPral Government is having a major drasl:ic impact on Atlantic Canada by not taking upon itself the responsibility it has to carr·y out and implement a proper program to rehabilitate and gE! 't ·the fishery moving again . It is most unfortunate. It is a desperate situation that they should be dealing with but are refusing to do so. I think this Government has put L28 May 10, 1990 Vol XLI forward and is continuin~~ to put forward some strong proposals based on sound logic, reasonableness and a passion for this ProvincE!, and I t!.louJd hope that thE! Federal Ministc:!r, 1\~r.

Valcourt, will give these proposals more than lip serv'.ice, give it some serious consideration. lhese drE! rnajoin proposaJ.s th<.,\'1:: li.JE! haVE! put r'"oni.Jc::ttnd for the long-term For the Provine,:• and they have been given very little consideration. I think t-:he F e d E! r a 1 Go v E! r n rn E! n t , t h r· o u ~1 h i t. f:, representatives in this Province, Mr. CrosbiE! and Min. Re::Ld, should certainly review what they have been doing and this recent announcement. I think that message has gone loud and clear from everybo~y in the Prov'.ince over the last few days.

Hopefully, we wiJ.l SN' sornE•t.lli.nq corning out of it . Our Minister of Fisheries is going to be meeting tAJil~h Mr. Valcol.ii"l: in thE! next fE!t!.l days to ttny to dea-.1 tJ,Jith l~his matter, and hop,:'fu11y, we i!.li11 see rnor·e corrdnq fi"Oill Ottawa in the sense oF not. only funding but j n the sensE! or programs and also in a sens t:! oF effort, in a sense· of shotJ,J:ing that they care about what happens to this Pro vi n c I;! and :i L s E· con o 1rd c activity.

That again is l::hE• Jtldjor messe:1ge that has to go t.o Ol:l:.atAkl and that has l:o qo r~,··urn l~his Province and from a]l people in the Province, becc:uJSC' il: has not sunk in and it has not gol:.ten through, Mr. Speaker . I think that is all I arn going to h a v E• to say , M tn . Speaker· , I IAJ:i ] ] let the debate continue. Thank you _ Min. Chairman : ThE! hon. Uw Mernbei" for St. John's East. No . 31 (Afternoon) R28

Ms Duff: Thank you, Mr. Chairman . It is interesting that the M€:Hnber for Stephenville would once again raise Meech Lake because I am sure that if all the words that have been said in this House on Meech Lake, and printed in the Newfoundland media, were J.aid E!nd to end they would stretch from here to Victoria and would mak€:~ a wonderful path fo1~ thE! Premi.E!r to ride his Favorite diversionary hobbyhorse. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! ~s ...... _Q_!:!..f.f.: An almost equal amount of words have been spent on the fishery.

I would have to agree that there could be no other topic mor·e worthy of discussion in this House than the Fishery, because her·e we have a genuine crisis and an industry that. is the most single impoJ~tant E!mployer in 'this Province. The difference between the 'two is that in thE! fishery we have a crisis that is not of the making of the people of Newfoundland. In Meech Lake, we have a crisis that is wholly and solely the making of the Pr€:Hnier of this Province.

In contrast to that, if you wer'E! to take the number of words that have beE!n spoken in this House on the subject of culture and historic resources and laid them end to end I think they would probably stretch from the Speaker's Chair to the door, or barely. So fo1~ that rE!ason, I am going to spend my ten minutes today on the subject of historic resources and culture, because they are probably the most neglected. languishing areas in the whole Budget and in the whole priority of this Government.

Just to put J.t in perspE!Cti.VE!, J.f you look at lAJhat. is spE!nt on culture, L29 May 10, 1990 Vo1 XLI as a percentage of- the~ t.ota1 NelAJfoundland Budget, J.t comes out to .003 per cent. If you look at what is spE!rlt on historic resources, i·t comes ou L to . 001 per cent. And J.f it gets any less, we can round it oFf t:o l::hree zeros and dJ~op J.t from thE• Budget altogether.

Because thE! pc:!ople~ in this ProvinCE! who valuE• their' culture and value l:heil" hE!I~i ta•::Je, the artists J.n this PJ~ovincE•, Uw hl':!ritage groups in this Prov·i. nce~. are so disappointed with the difference betW€:'en l:he prornts<:!S, the Fine words of th€:' M:i.ntstE!I" and what has actually happenE!d, aFl':.eJ~ mor·e than one year in off':ice':!, thdt I think you are very shortly gotng to start hearing from them.

BecausE• this Minister is ve::•J~y capable of lis l:.C:'ning, he~ lis l:(!ns and h€:' rnakE!S aJ.l the n:l.CE:' no:ises and people go out or=- his oFFice:! and think, good we havE:~ the Minister 1 s ear, he understands what we are saying and he J.s go:i.ng to do something. He goes to a lot of functions, and he makes the right noises. But after a year tl'w sarne noises, when the1~e :is no actton following those notses, becomE! just what they WE:!I"E' in the first p1ace and that is pious platitudes.

I think that is absolute1y disgraceFul in a Province which prides :itsel f on being the most historic PJ~ov.-ince in Canada. In a Province Lhat probably has more indigenous artists, visual arl::ists and performing artists, rnore native J~alAJ talent, most of whom iH'"=' starvtng to cl<~ath because of lack of opportunity to make a living From their craFt, and leaving to seek theJ.r fame and Fortune elsewhere. It is very, very difficult to understand fJ~om a Government:. who pr~:·tends to be so proud of this Province. No. 31 (Afl::E!rnoon) R29

I am actually angry about it. Ther·~~ is a good question I think that 11E:'ecls to bE~ as ke:~cl, and I only wish the Minister responsible were hE!re. Unfortunately, I gathE!r he is down at a meeting in the Minister of Public Wor·ks board room. I am sure he will hear about it anyway. Almost a year ago, he made a promise to the Heritage Coalition of Newfoundland and Labrador that he would establish a task force to take a cornpreh.:~nsive rev:it:~lAJ at the lAJhole area of Historic Resources Protection and Development in this Prov:ince.

It is an ar·ea, I quite ftnankly adrni t, that tJJas neglected, but not clS badly neglectE!d bE!FotnE:! he came into office. But he lJ.Jas going to do the world and all about it. He told them at the time that he thought it was a very good idea, lw lAJas vet"Y responsive, but he could'nt do it while the task force on the Arts · was in progress. NotJJ, I find it a little "difficult to understand, because it is two totally different groups of people, and it didn't cost a whole lot of monE!Y, why the•y couldn't be done on a parallel track .

But as my friend, Andy Wel.ls, often says at council tJJhen there is somebody who cannot handle two thingi at the same time, they can't walk and chew gum . So maybe that was the problem. In any case, the groups are very reasonable. Our Heritage groups are probably too reasonable; they walkE!d atJJay ft"Otn that rneE!ting thinking the Minister would make good on his promise and as soon as the task force on Cul turr:! had reported, he would establish a similar task force on Historic Resources.

Nothing has happened and, as far as I can find out, nothing is going to happen; there has been no discussion about it, there have bt:'•~n no tc,~l"ms of refere!nCE' establ:ishr:'d abou-t :it, L30 May 10, 1990 Vol XLI and we wi11 . probably be h~ ;!r'E • this time next year debating whether or not t:h•:!rE! wiLL bE• a task f'orcE· on Historical l~esouJ"ces SC'!t. up, i:'tncl that will be a profound disappointment to those who believed in this Government and this Minister.

But I am not totally surprised, bE:!Cause this MinistE•tn has not yc:•t dealt lAJi.l:h the r~".vi.etJJ on t.he Internal Reorganization of Lhe Historic Resources Division; he has not yet appointed people to Fill about thirteen vacancies lAJhich exist in those two al"eas in his Department.

I knotAJ t:hal:'s a lAJOndE~tnfu1 rnoney .... savinq dr:~v:iCE!, but it. cloesn' t:. do much fol" l:he l'nOI"i'lllo! of thE! staff; it. c~:!Y'tainly dor:!~;n't do much for protecting our cu1l:UI"e and our hE!ri tage; and it cei" 'L.ain1_y doesn't. do rnuch for l:ryinq to qo=:•t so1nething clonE! to aJJ.otAJ t:.hese l:.lAJO areas to reach their potential, not only in helping Newfoundlanders be proud of the Province in which they live and of their CllAJn idenU . ty, but. in Lhe dt:~velopment of l:ourisrn, lAJhich 1 have heard Lhis Government say time and time again has lhe greatest potential. as a gE!neral:or of new incomE! of any indus t.ry tn this Province.

NotAl that we are really in tlnoublE! lAJit.h the fishE:~ry, we r'E:!a] ly should have something in place in the ar'E:'a of t.out"istTI and whi'l L' s theinE•? Nothing! And if the l·:.:irne it has taken so far to do it is any judge, I hate to think of hotAJ long it tJJi 11 t a i<E:' . I t h :in I< it i s very important to keep in mind, part:icu1arly with heritage and histot"ic resources, t:.hal:. they iH'e nonrenetJJable . You may be abl.<:! to come up with another generation of ar·tists tAdth ql"E•at clifficu1ty, at tremendous loss of the potential of our· curt"ent oFf.icE:'S, but if you No. 31 (After·noon) 1no

lose your environment and your heritage, "it is nonrenewable, it is less renewable than the fishery, it is gone, and then, I think, we should stop even attempting to call ourselves an Historic Province. Every single year tAle lose som.::~l:hing else, and the catalogue of the losses is already profoundly depressing. I do not know how much time I have 1eft, but there is one otht:.~r a1nea I would ltke to just touch on. No, I am not finished tAJith that area yet, because evE:~n though the Minister is not here, I would 1ike to acldtness this to the:~ Gouernmr:~nt House Leader. I know that Minister is overburdened.

He knotAJs he is overburdened. It t~.Jas absolutely obvious from the day that catch-bag of a Department was put togethE!r that no one per·son, no matter hotAJ good, could possibly handle all those diverse responsibilities, particularly since we came up with amalgamation which, in itself, would be enough to keE!p a Minister busy, and the Fire Department resolution, whtch is another very large issue, the whole problem of recreation set"uices in this Ptnouinc<~~, and the youth and all these other things. The area of cultur1::' and hetn-.itage has been very low.

I would say it is number zero priority on this GovernmE!nt 1s priority list. So I tAJould like to ask the GoUE!rnment House Leader if he would ask this Minister, who "is a new Min-.ister, and probably proud, and probably feels that if he goes to l:h~:! Premier and says, Ml". Pt"erniE•I", look, I cannot do this. These are important areas which are being totally neglected, and I think it is time you split my Department into ttAJo Departments. IF you would tell him as a sort of a Father figure, as a senior L31 May 10, 1990 VoJ. XLI GOUE!I"IWIE!nt Ministe1n, somE•onE!

I sure he looks up to and relies not to bE:~ so - So~e Han. Members: Oh, oh! Ms Duff: I speak in terms tAJisclom, not age . Some Han. Members: Ah! ant on, of Ms Duff: If you cou1cl l:r:!1] him thc:tt he cloes not have t·.o be p1noud, in fact hE! IAIOUJ.d be I"E:>~;pE•CtE!cl ·if' he would publicly do l:hat and say h.:~ ·thinks thes<'! al"E!as at"E:! so important that they deserve t:he attE•ntion of a M:inis let" decltcatE!cl to those areas, I Udnk hE~ tAJou1cl gain a tremendous amount of respect and no loss of face. So perhaps the Government House LeadE!r u.JOuld hau1:! a cha'l: tJ..J:il:h h'is col}E!ague.

And, in the::! int.er'E•s Ls of the Province and oF our culture and oF ou1n heri.l:.agE!, that, I think, would be a very wise and VE!ry forward-thinldng moVE!. I can t.ell the han. the Mernb.::~r fat~ Potnl: de Gr·avE! totally agt"eE!S t~.r·i th me, and I can understand lAJhy, b(:!cause hE! comE:~s from a distr·icl: t:hat :i.s probably ti·H~ most: hisLot~ic pa1nt:. oF this entire Province. An Hon. Member: The ~JI~eat: District of Port de Graue . Ms Duff: of Port earliest Province .

It is the great District: de Ct"aUE!, one of Lhe at~eas sel:tlHd in Lhe Now tht~~ othE!r ar'E!a that is gtuinq me a great. dt~'al of concet"n is Pippy Park, so-callE·cl Pippy Pat" I<, and that, of coutnse, FaLls under the area of the Minister oF Wroks, Services and Transportation. It is a par·k nobody rE!a] J y has defined; nobody knotAJs tAJhat it is for, nobody knou.Js what. is qoin~J to happE!I1 t.o it. The Cornrnission t.hat No. 31 (Afternoon) r-n 1

has been appointed to look after the pcunk are afr·aid to move, arE! aFraid to make a decision tJJithout the permission of the Deputy Minister of Works, Services and Transportation, so it is farce to call it an Independent Commission. It has a budget, where the budget for administration exceeds by a considerable amount of money the total budget for development in the park. And this year, unfotntunately, that mE!asly budget, which tJJas so smaLl that:. the animals in thc:: J Animal Fartn starved to death, was cut by another $21.8,000. An Han. Member: That is not true . Ms Duff: That is true. -- ·---- - Mr.

Efford: That is not nice . Ms Duff: It is not nice. ThE~ hon. Member for Port de Grave is very t"ight, it is not nice. And I do not knotJJ where they are going to take that $218,000 from, unless th~::~tne are going to be no flotJJers in the flotJJer beds around Confederation Building this year . Mr. Simms : No flowers by request . Ms Duff: Yes, no flowers by re-que_s .. t··-of the Mini.s ter of Works, Services and Transportation.

That Mini.ster, I hope, wi.LJ. not have the face and l:he hypocrisy to suggest that his sitting on the funding for the Outer Ring Road until it hatchE•s has anything to do with his concern for that park. Mr. Chairman: Order, please! fhe hon. Member's time has elapsed. Ms Duff: I started. That will go again . tJ . .Jas is L.32 May 10, 1990 just getting all right, I Vo1 XLI Some Hon. Members : Hear, hear! Mtn. Chairman : BE!Fotne .I l"ecogniZE! the hon. Mc::,mber· For Placr:•ntia, I would like to welcome to the House of Assembly, on behalf of hon .

Members, the Deputy Mayor oF Steady Brook, A1lan ElE!St, accompanied by Councillor Claude Wt1ton. Some Han. Members : Heat", hPaln! Min. Chairman: ThE:' hon. the ME:•rnbot'"· for Placentia . Mr. Hogan : Now, if I could catAry on, Mr.

Chairman, and probab1y reiterate that the shipping and truckin~~ f'i1nrns arE! rnot~E:! inl:etAc;•sLed in a year-round rather than seasonal operation at Ar·~~enl::ia for' obvious reasons: savings due to lower round trip costs, availability of berths of truckE!lns, e1trninal:ion of hazar·dous winter driving on the TCA, and the ability to t.ake that rnandat:ol~y eight hours time off while on board, a11oiAJing them a full allotmE~nt oF thirteE!n hottrs driving.

The s E!r'vi c e wou Jd r·e s u1 L in a significant improvement in truck traffic freight. flolAJ ac1"oss the Province, and ptnoduct:' ovEH'<"'lll road user benefits of near1y $6 miLlion, 1.uhich would bE' passc~d onto the consumers. As these savings are spent by the shippei"S and consumers, additional employment lAJould likely rE!SUJt. Back haul tt~affic, such as fish and fish products, paper, c::tnd other products to be picked up across the Province, would guaranteE! the continuE~d v-.i.ab"i.lj_t:y oF tt~ucl< setnvinq cent1Aes, such as DeE'r LakE!.

I might also add, Mr. the han. the Me1nb~::~r Falls al1ucled to the Prog1nam last. lAJE:.ek, that No. 31 (Afl:et"noon) Chainnan, For Grand Cross Ta]k l:. hE! 1A e tAla s 1\32

a trucker IJJho ca1led in who enunciat<::~cl and, I gu€~ss, ~Javt:~ expertise on the factor of use of the Trans-Canada, particularly during the winter months. And he describt:~cl off--loading of tht:~ boats in Port aux Basques, or off-loading anywhet~E!. H<::~ said he arrives in PoJ~t. aux Basques, and IJJh<::~n thE! boat puLls into the clock and they drop the doors, the stE!Vedon:~s aJ.most. say, 1 Star·t your· motors, g<::~ntlemen, 1 and th~;;~n there is a mad tear for Corner Brook and other m~arby centl~es, and tht:~ traffic is absolute madness.

HE:~ went into great detail, a truck drivt:~r who has beE!n hauling back and forth across the Province, and to the Province From tht:' mainland, I think he said, fo1~ seven years, or something like that. As fa1~ as nE!gative community and t:'mployrnent impacts are concerned, thE! repoJ~t, in its finaJ. analysis, does not consider thc:~m to be significant. Increased tourism would more than compensate for any anticipated loss of casual jobs in Port aux Basques and in the truck 01~ auto serving centrt:~s. As wel1, l:.wenty--Five new jobs would be created at Argentia.

Given even the worst case scenario, the report conc1ucled that in the short-term only would Port aux BasquE:!S bt:' n€~gati.VE!ly affE!CtE!d, since most oF the traffic entering Argentic:\ IJJould exit via Port aux Basques. ~Hnc(,~ it IAJould rnean another shift in full-time service, M1~. Chairman, there would be an t:~xtra shift go on the existing service in Port aux Basques, employing creiAJ members from the Port aux Basques area. And, since Port aux BasquE·s would continue to be the main port of entry to the Province, they concluded what is good For Argentia would be good for Port aux Basques.

Thus, the report L.33 May 10, 1990 Vol XLI confil~ms IJJhal: we have altJJays Fe1t to be true in the Argentia area about the impact. on Port aux Basques. The report further suggests many other benefits oF year-round service, including the reduction of 111aintenance on thE! highiAJay, incrE!asecl safety on t.he h:i~JhiAiays, which IAJas enunciated by thal: sa1ne truck clr·iver who caJ.led in to the CJ~oss fail< Proql"dln, l~c:!duct.:ion of t.ht:~ FedE!l~aJ. Covel"nrnE:!nt. subsidy. Now, the FederaJ. Government is talking about austerity and savings and cutbacks and everything.

The :impJ.E!ITIE!nt:.a Li.on of the year ·-round serviCE! l:.o Arq<::'nl:.ia would not be an extra cost to Marine Atlantic, but would, in fact, sc:,we a nlintmurn of ~; 1 :> mi1lion, and the additiona1 pur·chase by MiH':l.nl'' Atlantic of local goods and services in the Argentia and North Sydney areas. A very significant

section of that report, to IJJhich I rE!fiC!r-red, deals 1.1.Ji th the effect U1E! year-·J"ound service IAJould have on the pi":l.va l~e water carriers ACE and ASL, all:hough the l~eport suc:'ITIS l:.o sp(!nd a great dec:-d. of tirne ana1yz.i .nq Lhe potential negatiVE! impacts on the two carriers. They were not concerned too much about the positivE:! E!ffE!Ct.

All:.houqh t.hey could not ignore the facts and figul"es on the pos-.i't.:i VE! i.rnpact :i.t IJJou1d have on th~;;~ Province, on the At~gE:'ntia ar<::~a, or thE:! pos:i . t.i.ve Ol" negative impacts on Port aux Basques, they d-.id spend a great deal of time analyzing Lhe potential. negatiVE:' irnpacts on l:.hE:• tiJJO carriE!I~s. I guess Lh<::~y have good lobbyists, and they got to the group. In the final analysis, the ADI report confirms that the potential loss of traffic by ACE and ASL to No. 31 (Aftr:'r'noon) f~33

road transport is purely specuJ.ative and unlikeJ.y to occur I reiterate, Mr . Chairman, unlikely to occur. It should be emphasized that ACE and ASL are in the containel" business and are essentially not tractol" traiJ.er or drop trailer freight carriers. The report states that these carriers aJ"E:' concE:'rned that MarinE! Atlantic would undercut their rates if the level of business drops. However, safeguards are built into the system, since the rates for Marine Atlantic are set by the Federal Government and cannot be changed by Marine Atlantic.

Consequently, ACE and ASL would maintain their competitive posi ·tion. It is also clear From the ADI report that the implementation of option three would result, not only in substantial benefits for the Argentia and Avalon region, but in significant net beriefits for the Province as a whole, including Port aux Basques.

Expanded t.ourist traffic and its resul.l ::ing spinoff benE!fits, a J.engthenE!d tourist season, increased exploitation of the Loop, Argentia/Port aux Basques tours, savings in highway costs, gains in highway safety and net employment growth, IAJould ensure that thE:' benefits were distributed through the whole Province and to the provincial economy. What is good for Argentia will. be good, not only for Port aux Basques. but for all of the Province. Marine Atlantic's economic health is also of direct concern to residents in all communities where the company operates.

As the ADI report shoJAJS. a year-round servicE! will enhance the company's economic viability through greater and more efficient use of its present fac:lJ.i.ties, and by ful"ther so1idify:ing l:he company's posi t:ion L3'1 May 10, 1990 Vol XLI in the Province. Further. t.h~~ ADI report estimates that Marine Atlantic could attract up to $5 million in new revenues each year, thereby reducing the annual fedE:~ral subsidy ·to ·the ser-vice by an equal amount, :in times when ITIOI"E' and TnOI"E! SE'I"ViC~~S al"~:· be-.1.1 '1~) cut by the Fed€:!ral CoVE!I"I'll'n''~nt ..

Because of their lack of financtal viability, any rnoVE!mE!nl:. in the dir·ection of SE!l.f-suffictency TilLIS L. strengthen the future of the Company. Ml". Chairman. earlier. for sixteen YE!cli"S a(' _, sorne WH I indicated fifteen or have been advocating the year-round SE!rvice. TheJ"e ai"E! tto~.Jo things to be considel"l::>d: The 1oop, lAJ~dch [ iLlustrated and t:a1ked abou t in rny prepared text. and \:he tra fr:-:ic corridor of North Sydney Argentia and North Sydney - Pori: aux Basques. Mr·.

Chairman. that tA.Jill only lE'!nd \:o the econo1ny of the Province, and lend to the betterment of the Province; it IAJil.1 rE:~sul.t in rnoi"E! jobs oveJ"a1J .• and enhance thE! position of I"LIJ"al NE!WfoundJ.and. Thank you. MJ·'. Chairman. Mr. Chairman: The hon. thE! Mernb,:>r for Fortune - Hermitage . Mr. Langdon: Ml" . Chair·rnan. i.t :i.s a plE:~asure to participat'" in l:he debate. I would, in a sense, disagree s omelo~Jha t tAli t h th ~" Memb r:'! r fo1" St. John's East: lo~Jhen she talked about the need for cuJ.ture. No doubt we do need culture in this Province - this heritage which we have.

But I would like to go back and address for a fE!W rnornE!nts th~:· nE!ecls of th('! people in the Fortune -- H(:'rlrrilc:lge District, particularly those in the inshore fishery. I do not think peoph~ rea] i.ze Lhe No. 31 (Afternoon) rnfl .

impact the failure of the inshot"e fishery has had in that particular part of the Pt"ovince. In fact, the number of inshore fishermen in that District numbers the equivalent of three Grand Bank fish plants or five Gaultois fish plants. To realizr:', Mt". Chairman, that in the package just announced by the Provincial Govet"nmli:~nt l:het"e lAJas no compensation For these peopJ.E!, is Vli:'ry difficult to accept, especially when the Minister of Fisheries, Mr.

Valcourt, went. l:o Her·mitage on his initial visit to the community, l'nE!t lAJith the fishermen and, in a sense, assurE!d them that h!i:~ would, indeed, look at the plight of these pE!Ople. A case in point, Mr. Chait"man, recently an inshore fisherman's son was brought to St. John's after being diagnosed as having leukemia. After fishing for the fu11 winter, he did not have enough money for transportation to bring his son to the hospital, the mother did not have enough money to take a hotel, and she had to sleep for tlA.Jo nights in the room with her son. That, to me, is really not good enough.

We were told recently that some of the students in the area, in high school, have no monE!Y or vet"Y little money to buy lunches during thE! day at school because of the insufficient income these people have had during the winter. In fact, the Department of Social Services, over the 1f.lst couple of days, paid the light biLL For one of the fishermen, tA.Jhose light bill tJJas $S81 when, for the last LAJeek, he made $18. It is impossible for these people to survive. The point to be made here, Mr.

Chairman, is simply this, that this inshore fishermen are worse off than the people in Grand Bank, L3S May 10, 1990 Vol XLI they are worse off than the people in Gaultois, and lAJOl"SE• off- than the peopJ.e in Trepassey, because these people are presently E:Hnployed; they arli:~ E!arning monE•y, and because they are earning money, it also ent.il:.les thE!ITI t:o UI benefits, which will indeed tide l:hem OVE:~r into 1991. fhE!Se inshore fishermen have no income or vet"Y lit:.l:.l~' incorn,~. In ·fact, today is a I:JE!C.Httifu1 day.

ThJ.s morning I had a call from Her·rnttagli:'. and UJ(• lon~J - Li rwt"S aJ"E! not Fishing today. rhey see no point in going out, because you cannot get enough fillet For lunch. So why wou1cl you go out. and fish under these conditions? And th!i:~ point was rnacle, Mt". Chatrrnan, whE!n the people Frorn the arE:~a. thE! tou.Jn counci1s and l..he fishermen's delL::>gat:ion, lllE!t lAJil~h thE:~ Pt"E!l'rliet" and woith t:he Mini s·t:et" of Fisheries earlier, and LAJ(! ~;ent off a d o c u rn e n t t o t h e M i n j s t. e 1" o-f Fisheries outlining For hirn l..he failure in the catch over the last number of years.

And the people in Ottawa realize that these fishermen at"e ·in the plight l:.hey arE:' through no fault. of' t.he'it" OlAJn; il: is primarily bE:~cause of FrL:'nch overfishing. The French people, the French trawlers and their factory frE!eZr:~rs, have tak,::!n thE! fish these people normally have on thE! J.nshot"e fishing grounds, and the ftsh is nol:. th1:!rE:~ Fot" Lhern to catch anyrnot"E•. So to leave thesE:! peop1e in that part:icular pat"t oF the Pt"ovince, to use an expr·ession, high and dt"Y, is just not fai.l".

I J.ook at the situation in U·d.s perspli:~ctive: if I lAJet"e to hew':~ an accident and I LJ.Jas fu] ly coveJ"Ni, with collision on rny car, yel: Lhe other fel1oiA.J who l"an tnto rrw u.Jas at fault, I do not l:hink I shou1d have to take tTfy lTIOnE·y and rny ~;2SO No. 31 ( Af t.ernoon) R3 1)

deductible, if that wouJ.d be thE~ case, to fix my cal" when the other peJ"son LAJas at fault. And I see the same scenario, the same oul:fit being applied to the fisheries. The Federal Government is at fault here . They haue allowed the oueJ"fishing to occur, and they know quite well the stocks are depleted. They haue caused the situation, yet they are not LAJilling to do anything about it. And that is a point of contention with these p~:wple, and they aJ"e in desperate straits. Mr. Chairman : Order, please! If thE~ hon.

ME~mber would not m:l. nd me interrupting, I haue to announce the questions for the Late Show. The fist question: 1I giue notice that I am not satisfied with answers from the Premier to my question on extended notice to plants. 1 That is from the hon. the Member for St. Mary 1s - The Capes. The second question: 1 I wish to giue notice that I am dissatisfied t..~.Jith the anst.l.lers to my question to thE~ MinistE!r of Education J"e: the elimination of hospital full-time teachers, and I wish to debate same in the Late Show . 1 That is from the hon. the Opposition House LE:~ader.

The third questi6n: 1I am not satisfied with the answers giuen to me by the Minister of Fisheries in response to questions asked today about his inuoluement in the opening of the plants. 1 That is fl"Om the hon. the Membe::~r for Fogo . The hon. the Member for Fortune - Hermitage. Mr. Langdon: Ml" .

Chairman, the L36 May 10, 1990 Vol XLI plight of the inshore fi shel"Y there, being d~~uastab?.d as it -.Ls, doE:~sn 1 t J.eaue much chancE· fol" ·Uw people in the area to do much other than to lool< to for help at this time. peoplE~ haUE! been proud, been industrious, they indepE~nclent, and they looking to be long -t:i.rne of Government help . GoUE !r'nl'riE!n t But thE!Se they haue hau~" beE:'n aJ"E! no l:. J"ecipien t.s Now, the area it self does haue tourist potential, down there in that particular part of the Prouince. It has not bE!Bil touched, and pl"imari1y th E• l"E:'a son why it has not bE!en, Mr.

Chail"ITian, is because of the gravel roads. These roads aJ"t"! tn ciC"!plorable condition. They are under construction there not~.J , in l:ht? Belleoram/English Harbou r area. Hopefully the road to Hermitage and Seal Coue u.JilJ . be cion (;! uncle!" the agreement in the nt3X l: 1it.l1t:> LAJhile and will, indeed, open up that particular area oF Lhe Pr6uince to touri sts. In fact, Mr.

Chairman, the area of l':.he Connaigre Peninsula is just twenty- three 1niles From l:he Is land of Miquelon and would, i.ncl eE!CI, I think, be an area of gJ"c•at interest l:o peop1E~ u.Jho u.Jou.lcl col'lln into the area to do work. One time, last Fall, I sugge sted to the Pl"esident: of TreasUJ "Y Boar 'cl that probably one of the aJ"lC>i'lS lJ.Jt:> could LISE! to CI"E!dte SOIIIU rnt::~aningful ernploymE!Ilt t~.Jas the beautification of the iH'E :!a on the Bay d'Espoir highway.

In Fact, that highway, which stretches about 210 kilornel:ers dou.m Lh('!J"e, has bJ"ush and treE:!S qutl:.e cJose to the shoulder of l:hC::' road, and if we were to cut the timber and brush on the road back probably fifty or sixty fE!e t frorn the l"oad l:ine, a lot of the cost incurT1:~d in giuirfg thE! people sorr~t:• No . 31 (AftE:~I"noon) 1\36

meaningful work could be recovered in the form of saw logs and timber that could be sold to the companies concerned. I am su1~e that wou1d be a welcome addition to the inshol~e fishel~rnen down in that area who notJJ find it practically impossiblE! to makE· it on the fishery at all. As I said ea1nlier, th~~1ne is no fish and they have in a sense become disillusioned and find themselves giving up. Also, Mr. Chairman, the ar·ea itseJ.f has drawbacks because of the physical layout. of the particular District.

An arE!a of concern for some time has been in the form of E!clucation, wherE• up untiJ. now the grants given to the schools are as a pe1n-pupil grant, and what we have found in that particular area, because of the small number of students that. attended the schools, the schools have not been able to keep abreast with it because of the lack of educational financing with some of the largE:~r area.

It is also good to realize that the Government has plans to change that particula1n situation so that the per-grant can be changed from per capita on the condition of the schools, and lAJhat have you, so that thesE! people can bC:~ t.rE!ated Fairly with the larger centres. The school board has also been sornetAJhat pleased tAJith the fact that there has been debt retention and it has been written off by the Department, and that indeed has beE!n a welcome addition for th1~se people. Mr.

Chairman, br:!cauSE! of the failure :in the fishery in that ar·ea, as I said, all sectors of the area are finding it difficult, especially business. What we find, of course, is that some of the smaller businesses have allotJJed the people crE•di t and probably have overextended L37 May 10, 1.990 Vol XLI themselves to the point where they have difficulty in maintaining business. Mr. Chairman: Order, please! The hon. Member's time has elapsed . ~.!.~ ... : ______ ... b.~ .. !J.9_Q_9...Q. : Thank you, Ml" . Chail~man. r.:'J.r. ... !... ... -.-~ •. b-~.~-[!!!. <!_1} : fOI" LaPoiJ.e. The hon. th1~ MC:~InbE!I" Mr.

Ramsay: Ml" . SpE:!aker, -.i.t. ~~:i.vE:•s mE! pleasUI''e -to l''ise today in c o n s i d e r at i o n o f L h E! y E! a I" --In o u n cl Argentia quest:i.on. It is one that I arn quite at.uarE! of br::•cal.ISic! or· the possoib1~~ impact on rny al~ea oF year-round Argentia. The Port aux Basques dl=!legation tl~ave1.1ed to Otl:atJJa l~ecE:~ntJ.y to ITIC:!et IAJ:.Ll·:.h thr::! Fed~:!ral Minis l:er of Tr·ansport, Lhe l-Ion. Doug Lc~!tAJi.s, and tAJE• we1"e VE!I"Y surpr:i.sed to Find that the Han. FE!deral Min:isler of T rc.u1spo1~t clj.cJ not even knot.~oJ tAJhl:~l~e exacl~ly Pol"t aux BasquE:'S was located.

The F:i.rst thing they had to do was take out a rnap and shotAJ h-.:i.rn wl'11o'I"E• Port aux Basques was. The sE:~cond thing !:hal~ happE!ned was, the~! l-Ion. FeciE!I"a1 Minis lei" t.uent so ·Far as l~o say l~hal: Por'-t aux Basqu~'S shouJ.d not reaLl.y bE'! worried because there wouJ.d be new jobs created on the Joseph and Clara Smallwood. He was quite SLII~PI"iSE!cl to hE!C\1'' thc:·1t. l:.he VE'SSe1 t.uas already in service, and had alrea