Legislative Assembly of New Brunswick Oral Questions Original by Hansard Office Translation by Debates Translation 1 December 5, 2023 CONTENTS HOMELESSNESS Ms. Holt Hon. Ms. Green Ms. Holt Hon. Ms. Green Ms. Holt Ms. Holt NURSES Hon. Mr. Fitch Ms. Holt Hon. Mr. Fitch ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT ASSESSMENT Ms. Holt Hon. Mr. Flemming, K.C. Ms. Holt Hon. Mr. Flemming, K.C. PENSIONS Ms. Holt Hon. Mr. Higgs

Legislative Assembly of New Brunswick Oral Questions Original by Hansard Office Translation by Debates Translation 2 SCHOOLS Ms. Landry Hon. Ms. Johnson Ms. Landry Hon. Ms. Johnson Ms. Landry Hon. Ms. Johnson REGIONAL DEVELOPMENT CORPORATION Mr. Legacy Hon. R. Savoie Mr. Legacy Hon. R. Savoie ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT ASSESSMENT Mr. Coon Hon. Mr. Flemming, K.C. Mr. Coon Hon. Mr. Flemming, K.C. PENSIONS Mr. M. LeBlanc Hon. Mr. Higgs Mr. M. LeBlanc Hon. Ms. Dunn Ms. Holt Hon. Mr. Higgs

Legislative Assembly of New Brunswick Oral Questions Original by Hansard Office Translation by Debates Translation 3 [Original] HOMELESSNESS Ms. Holt (Bathurst East—Nepisiguit—Saint-Isidore, Leader of the Official Opposition, L): Mr. Speaker, on October 31, I asked the minister about the government’s readiness to support the people who are experiencing homelessness as the temperatures dropped, the snow fell, and their numbers increased. She described her work with Fredericton, Saint John, and Moncton. She shared that her team had been working on this since the summer.

Our team was concerned with the slow timing, and we watched November come and go with no out-of-the-cold shelters opened. Since the information provided had focused on three larger urban centres, on November 21, I asked the minister specifically about Miramichi and St. Stephen as they are two smaller rural communities that are experiencing significant challenges with homelessness and are looking for partnerships from the provincial government. The minister confirmed that her team was working on it. Two weeks later, things have gotten sadly worse. Someone has died in the cold in St.

Stephen, and the community is begging the government for more help. I know that the minister is concerned about this. Please tell the House what tangible action your government is taking to help the people— Mr. Speaker (Hon. Bill Oliver): Thank you, member. Hon. Ms. Green (Fredericton North, Minister of Social Development; Minister responsible for the Economic and Social Inclusion Corporation; Minister responsible for the New Brunswick Housing Corporation, PC): Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. We have had a lot of conversations back and forth about the homeless issue.

Yes, we talked about the big centres, but we are also working with St. Stephen and Miramichi. I believe that she talked specifically about St. Stephen. In St. Stephen, we have explored 20 different properties with stakeholders in that community to find a location for the emergency out-of-the-cold shelter. Those locations were turned down for various reasons, many of them stemming from Not In My Back Yard, Mr. Speaker. I want to remind this House that these people who are experiencing homelessness deserve our care.

We need to think about how we can support them and stop thinking about what is happening in our backyards. We need to be supportive of individuals who are experiencing homelessness. We are working to try to find a good location, but we need the community members to collaborate with us. I think that we could see last night that they are not feeling very collaborative, Mr. Speaker. Ms. Holt (Bathurst East—Nepisiguit—Saint-Isidore, Leader of the Official Opposition, L): Mr. Speaker, I am stunned that the minister has just gotten up and blamed the people of St.

Legislative Assembly of New Brunswick Oral Questions Original by Hansard Office Translation by Debates Translation 4 Stephen with NIMBYism and said that they are not taking the problem seriously. I have been hearing from the people of St. Stephen about this issue for many, many months and even since last year. To point the finger at them when they are in extreme circumstances and asking for help. . . My question was: What action is the government going to take today to respond to the desperate situation in St. Stephen?

I do not think that pointing blame at that community is the right answer, so maybe you could try again. Hon. Ms. Green (Fredericton North, Minister of Social Development; Minister responsible for the Economic and Social Inclusion Corporation; Minister responsible for the New Brunswick Housing Corporation, PC): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We need a property to put the trailers on for the homeless shelters. We are eager to work at finding a location and eager to work with the community. In fact, I gave the mayor of St. Stephen my personal cell phone number and asked him to reach out to me if he had concerns.

I have not heard from him in a week. We have a plan for St. Stephen. We have the trailers ready to go, Mr. Speaker. We need the land to put the trailers on. We have been working collaboratively with the city of Miramichi. We found a location there. Again, we are experiencing some issues there. We have been working collaboratively with Moncton, Saint John, and Fredericton. In fact, in Moncton we are putting our shelter in one of the city’s buildings, Mr. Speaker. We are open to working collaboratively, but we cannot do this alone. We need the stakeholders engaged. We need the communities engaged.

My team is on the ground. Ms. Holt (Bathurst East—Nepisiguit—Saint-Isidore, Leader of the Official Opposition, L): I am going to change topics because I do not want to hear another person in St. Stephen get thrown under the bus for this. (Interjections.) Ms. Holt (Bathurst East—Nepisiguit—Saint-Isidore, Leader of the Official Opposition, L): Yes. That is exactly how I feel. NURSES On November 22, we asked the Minister of Health how much money was being spent on travel nurses. We did not get an answer on November 22. There were no figures, and no information was provided.

We had to resort to an RTI request, which the nurses submitted. It came back with disturbing figures. In five months, $56.8 million was spent on travel nurses in this province, resulting in wages of approximately $142 per hour. As the other member said, this is more than three times the average wage of $46 per hour for a midcareer nurse.

Legislative Assembly of New Brunswick Oral Questions Original by Hansard Office Translation by Debates Translation 5 For a government that is so obsessed with nickels and dimes and looking for value for money, I do not see how this could be considered a great investment. It is money that is going to people from outside of the province. Will the minister commit to investing in the retention of New Brunswick’s hardworking nurses? Hon. Mr. Fitch (Riverview, Minister of Health, PC): Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I appreciate the opportunity to answer that question this morning because we too want to make sure that we have enough resources in the province to meet the needs of the health care system. That is what we have been working toward. The members opposite ask and talk about this money that was invested in the health care system. Well, Mr. Speaker, the RHAs are charged with making sure that the emergency rooms are open and making sure that the care is given to the people who are in need. They look forward to having the surgeries done when they are needed.

Those are the types of investments that the RHAs made to make sure that the personnel were there. We have made a significant number of investments—I will get to them if I get another question—around making the recruitment occur here so that there are hands on the front lines to help the people who need the help the most. Ms. Holt (Bathurst East—Nepisiguit—Saint-Isidore, Leader of the Official Opposition, L): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My point here is actually about retention.

The nurses of New Brunswick are feeling undervalued, and they are feeling disrespected as they see people being paid three times more than them when this government has told them that it does not have money for retention. They have been told: Other provinces are going to do that. They were told that if they want to earn more, they should move to Alberta. We need every single one of our current New Brunswick nurses to know that they are important and valued, and a retention plan would be a wise investment in this health care system.

I would love to hear the minister talk about the retention of our nurses and demonstrate that respect for them. And I would love to hear the minister commit to phasing out travel nurses by 2025. Hon. Mr. Fitch (Riverview, Minister of Health, PC): Thank you very much. I know that the members opposite, if an emergency room had been closed, a surgery was not done or canceled, or there were not the right ratios within the various floors. . .

We heard from the Nurses’ Union that they wanted more hands on deck, so we told the RHAs: Manage your resources in a way that will ensure that there are people on the floors to help the patients and to give health care here in New Brunswick. The members opposite are saying that we should not have spent that money. The members opposite are saying that the RHAs should not have hired the travel nurses. Mr. Speaker, we know that we want a New Brunswick without travel nurses, and that is why we are doing a significant amount of recruitment. We have made significant investments in making sure

Legislative Assembly of New Brunswick Oral Questions Original by Hansard Office Translation by Debates Translation 6 that there are hands on deck on those wards to ensure that those who are there now are getting the help that they need. That is what we heard. That is what the RHAs have done. Every time that I get near a microphone, I say thank you to the frontline workers. We appreciate them so much. We have increased the number of nursing seats here in New Brunswick, at UNB, to 85. Mr. Speaker (Hon. Bill Oliver): Thank you, minister. [Translation] ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT ASSESSMENT Ms.

Holt (Bathurst East—Nepisiguit—Saint-Isidore, Leader of the Official Opposition, L): Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Last week, we were disappointed to see that the government allowed Coastal Shell Products to continue its operations in Beaurivage, even though we did not manage to obtain the test results and even though we have given this business I do not know how many chances to make improvements that it never makes. [Original] I am going to cite the Premier and a quote that he gave a few months ago, committing to get to the bottom of the problems with AIM and to determine whether AIM is fit to be operating where it is today.

The task force has reported its findings, and it is exceptionally clear that the piles exceed the size recommended by the fire code and the EIA by two to two and a half times, that AIM does not have an emergency plan capable of responding to the situations as necessary, and that it should not be operating where it is. Will the Premier commit to canceling AIM’s permit immediately? Hon. Mr. Flemming, K.C. (Rothesay, Minister of Justice, Attorney General, PC): Well, thank you for the question. I must say, having been involved in the task force these past few weeks, that we have done great work.

The report speaks for itself. It says what it says, but there is a process in government that has to be followed. It is not the AIM task force’s job to do this. The task force has no regulatory authority. It has no statutory authority. It has no permitting authority. It has no licensing authority. It has no authority to do anything other than conduct the fact-finding mission that it did. I must say that it did it well, and I was proud to be a part of it. Now, the process goes over to the regulatory departments to do their jobs in a manner that I am confident they will, in fact, do. Ms.

Holt (Bathurst East—Nepisiguit—Saint-Isidore, Leader of the Official Opposition, L): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Could the member opposite tell us and the people of Saint John when we could expect a decision from the department and the regulatory authority on AIM’s operations?

Legislative Assembly of New Brunswick Oral Questions Original by Hansard Office Translation by Debates Translation 7 Hon. Mr. Flemming, K.C. (Rothesay, Minister of Justice, Attorney General, PC): I can say in all due haste. There is a process. We are a nation of laws. In New Brunswick and in Canada, we function under the rule of law. There are provisions in statutes that provide for this type of situation.

This gives powers to ministers, to departments, and to government to conduct themselves in such a manner and to make sure that companies conduct themselves in such a manner that protects and preserves the well-being of New Brunswickers. I can assure you that that is exactly what is going to be done. Now, it would be premature for me, as Attorney General, to speak on behalf of the regulators and the decision-makers who are doing this.

However, I will, as Attorney General, say this: I will in all haste push as fast as I can to make sure that this gets done and is done right and that a horrendous event like the AIM fire does not happen again anywhere. Mr. Speaker (Hon. Bill Oliver): Thank you, minister. PENSIONS Ms. Holt (Bathurst East—Nepisiguit—Saint-Isidore, Leader of the Official Opposition, L): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I think that I, like many other members of this Assembly, have been hearing from New Brunswick workers in large numbers over the past number of days.

There have been emails, phone calls, and people approaching us in the streets. I was in Moncton yesterday for a day of meetings, of phone-ins to Parle-Parle Jase-Jase, and of meetings with the firefighters’ union. People were expressing deep concern about this province’s approach to labour relations and the fact that a signed MOU could be disregarded without having completed the steps.

I want to give the Premier one last chance to pause this legislation, speak to the people and workers of New Brunswick, and say that he will go back to the table and follow free and fair bargaining principles to come to an agreement. People who are receiving pensions in New Brunswick today and who are members of unions are concerned. They are scared for the future of their pensions and livelihoods when a government disrespects agreements, signed contracts, and processes. Mr. Premier, will you pause and come back to the table? Mr. Speaker (Hon. Bill Oliver): Time, member. Hon. Mr.

Higgs (Quispamsis, Premier, Minister responsible for Intergovernmental Affairs, PC): Mr. Speaker, first, I need to be clear. No collective agreement has been broken. There was an MOA signed back in June 2021 or in the fall of 2021. The goal was to have a process that would address the shortfalls in the pensions so that they would be secure and sustainable. It was a process that would see pensions be fair and equitable to both employees and taxpayers.

Legislative Assembly of New Brunswick Oral Questions Original by Hansard Office Translation by Debates Translation 8 Mr. Speaker, that process was underway and was supposed to be completed by June 2022. With no progress, a number of extensions were made after that into August 31, 2022, and then to November 30, 2022. Still, there was no progress. Then there were discussions that went into 2023. A presentation was made that provided a CAAT program that would see taxpayers spend a billion dollars into the program and have a different ratio between employees and employers. Then, Mr. Speaker, there was a letter.

Maybe we will get into a few more discussions about the response from CUPE on that. Mr. Speaker (Hon. Bill Oliver): Thank you. [Translation] SCHOOLS Ms. Landry (Madawaska Les Lacs-Edmundston, L): Mr. Speaker, since the Blaine Higgs government took office, there have been no announcements for new Francophone schools,

whereas 13 new schools have been announced for the Anglophone sector. The President of the Fédération des conseils d’éducation du Nouveau-Brunswick, Marie- Ève Rousseau, gave a reminder that the government of New Brunswick has constitutional obligations to the Francophone minority and that it must provide equitable education investments for both official linguistic communities in this province. Ms. Rousseau also pointed out that the Francophone sector is chronically underfunded with regard to new school construction projects, midlife projects, and major repairs. Mr.

Minister, what have you done to ensure that an educational experience of equivalent quality is provided in both sectors of your department? [Original] Hon. Ms. Johnson (Carleton-Victoria, Minister of Agriculture, Aquaculture and Fisheries, PC): As part of the annual capital budget process, we receive major capital project requests from the seven school districts. Those requests are then evaluated using the QBL process— the Quadruple Bottom Line tool.

That result, as another member indicated earlier, is quantified using 16 criteria, including infrastructure capacity, socioeconomic impact, environmental impact, and access to education for minorities. The next schools in the SDIP list are Francophone.

There are midlife upgrades for Polyvalente W.-Arthur-Losier in addition to École Abbey-Landry; there is a midlife upgrade for Polyvalente Louis-J.-Robichaud; there is a new school to replace Inglewood School and Grand Bay Primary School; there is a new school to replace Forest Glen School and Sunny Brae Middle School; there is a midlife upgrade and addition for École Mathieu-Martin; and there is a midlife upgrade and addition for École Sainte-Anne. Although it may not be considered a Francophone district, the member for Moncton Centre—

Legislative Assembly of New Brunswick Oral Questions Original by Hansard Office Translation by Debates Translation 9 Mr. Speaker (Hon. Bill Oliver): Thank you, minister. [Translation] Ms. Landry (Madawaska Les Lacs-Edmundston, L): Mr. Speaker, the minister responded to my question by mentioning upcoming priorities. That being said, I looked at the 2023-24 capital budget, which was tabled a year ago; in it, three new schools were announced: one in Saint John, one in Shediac Cape, and one in Campbellton.

However, there have been announcements since then, and we have learned that a new school would be built in the northern part of Carleton County, in Florenceville-Bristol. Can the minister tell us how far down the priority projects list this school was in 2023-24? Can he confirm to us that this school was fourth on the list? Thank you. [Original] Hon. Ms. Johnson (Carleton-Victoria, Minister of Agriculture, Aquaculture and Fisheries, PC): First of all, I would like to say how happy I am that there is going to be a new school in Carleton North.

As for the placement on that list, I would have to take that under advisement. I will find that information this evening and get back to you tomorrow. [Translation] Ms. Landry (Madawaska Les Lacs-Edmundston, L): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. You know that there are seven school districts in New Brunswick that present their school infrastructure priorities every year. How do you explain the fact that the first priority of one of the seven school districts in New Brunswick ended up in 39th place, while the district’s third priority ended up in 28th place?

This is what we would like to know: What exactly is the role of school districts in the prioritization of investment projects? [Original] Hon. Ms. Johnson (Carleton-Victoria, Minister of Agriculture, Aquaculture and Fisheries, PC): Well, we recognize that there are several major projects that the local communities and the district education councils wanted to see move forward. We are going to continue to work with the districts to ensure that the needs of students are being met across the districts.

As for the actual data and specific numbers, I will take that under advisement and get back to you in the near future.

Legislative Assembly of New Brunswick Oral Questions Original by Hansard Office Translation by Debates Translation 10 [Translation] REGIONAL DEVELOPMENT CORPORATION Mr. Legacy (Bathurst West-Beresford, L): Mr. Speaker, last week, during the tabling of the capital budget, the Minister responsible for the Regional Development Corporation announced $58.9 million under Canada - New Brunswick Integrated Bilateral Agreement. It will be recalled that, last year, the federal Minister of Infrastructure ordered this government to provide a list of projects that would be completed.

It was not a matter of completing the projects, but a list had to be provided, at the least. Now that the department is submitting its annual report two years later, can the minister say how he is going to report on his projects and their timelines? Hon. R. Savoie (Miramichi Bay-Neguac, Minister responsible for the Regional Development Corporation, PC): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I remember that, a few weeks ago, my colleague the Minister of Education and Early Childhood Development said that he was feeling a bit forgotten by the other side of the House.

Well, I can tell you that, until today, I felt the same way, so, thank you for the question. To answer the question, the Regional Development Corporation is working on its infrastructure projects with the federal government. We are working on analyzing them and moving them forward together. However, last year, with the last budget, we met every request. We met our quota with the federal government and made sure that we got these amounts. Mr. Speaker (Hon. Bill Oliver): Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Legacy (Bathurst West-Beresford, L): Mr.

Speaker, what I would like to know is what was reported and what the list of projects is. What happened is that several of these projects were not accepted, and we were told that other programs were in the works. However, knowing the government, and knowing that the provincial portion is slow to arrive, it would be nice to know how many projects will be carried out, how long they will take, and what is going on with the new program that was supposed to be announced with the federal government.

Without knowing this information, nobody can plan anything, so, will the minister release last year’s list of projects for which you say you have met the expectations? How will this information be released? That is what we want to know. Hon. R. Savoie (Miramichi Bay-Neguac, Minister responsible for the Regional Development Corporation, PC): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Let’s put this into perspective. Last year, every project was approved to meet the requirements for bilateral projects. We made sure to receive those amounts, and the projects went ahead.

However, with regard to upcoming projects, the federal government’s infrastructure program has not yet been announced. Once it is, evaluations can be done, our projects can

Legislative Assembly of New Brunswick Oral Questions Original by Hansard Office Translation by Debates Translation 11 be presented, and the federal government can be worked with to move our projects forward. However, Mr. Speaker, as you know, the federal government is the opposition members’ cousin, and they know very well that the program has not yet been announced. So, you may be asked to work with your cousin to exert pressure for that to happen as soon as possible. Thank you. [Original] ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT ASSESSMENT Mr. Coon (Fredericton South, Leader, G): Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

This morning, the Attorney General released findings of the task force on American Iron & Metal. The first finding was that the information submitted by the company for environmental assessment by the Department of Environment, as required under the Clean Environment Act and the Environmental Impact Assessment Regulation, was insufficient and did not adequately address key environmental issues such as fires, explosions, and the potential release of contaminating substances. This is a damning indictment of the EIA process and of the Department of Environment’s capacity to carry it out.

The EIA process is supposed to ensure that the environment and public health are not put at risk. It is supposed to have our backs. It has clearly failed, just as the Department of Environment failed. Will the Attorney General bring this 36-year-old law forward with changes so that New Brunswickers can be assured that it will actually have our backs? Hon. Mr. Flemming, K.C. (Rothesay, Minister of Justice, Attorney General, PC): Well, thank you for the question. The role of the task force was not to go back a number of years to when this was done. That does not mean that we should avoid or skirt the issue.

The member is quite right in his reason to bring that up. Any time there is a major issue like the AIM fire, there properly should be an after-action report. It should be reviewed. It should be looked at. It should be properly analyzed. If there are ways that it should be corrected, then we will take those ways. You have to understand—and I am not shirking anything— that the environmental pendulum has moved more and more in a particular direction. This was 13 years ago. Things have changed.

He is quite correct in the suggestion that perhaps this legislation should be looked at as part of an overall review as to how it got us here, so I thank him for the question. I appreciate the member’s raising it. Mr. Coon (Fredericton South, Leader, G): Mr. Speaker, the Attorney General presented findings from the task force that exposed a complete and utter failure of the enforcement arm of Public Safety. Assurances by the company that no hazardous materials would ever, ever be brought on the site have proven to be unfulfilled.

This conclusion was reached after—what?—181 recorded explosions and 22 fires prior to the fire of September 14. The EIA said that the height of the scrap pile at AIM should not exceed 6 m, when in fact it was 12 m to 15 m high when the most recent fire took place. This represents an utter failure of environmental law enforcement in this province, Mr. Speaker. How could this state of affairs have gone on for so long? Why did the Minister of Public Safety fail to take

Legislative Assembly of New Brunswick Oral Questions Original by Hansard Office Translation by Debates Translation 12 enforcement action when informed by his officers that hazardous materials were present at the AIM site? Or was he in the dark? Hon. Mr. Flemming, K.C. (Rothesay, Minister of Justice, Attorney General, PC): Mr. Speaker, I can assure you that the minister was not in the dark, nor was this being avoided. This site was an ongoing process. It started out at 4.6 acres. It grew into 26 acres. Product would come in, and product would go out.

Some days, it would be this height, and some days, it would be that height. There would be some shredding, some shipping, and some boats, and things like that would occur. It is a constant moving target all the time. There is a presumption in law that people obey the law. People are expected to comply with the law. When something like this happens, we look into it. We investigate it, and we see what the issues are. I can tell you that we will examine this. We will look at this, and we will make sure that this does not happen again.

We have also directed that all junkyard salvage dealers in New Brunswick—every single one of them—are now being reviewed, looked at, to make sure that they are and will continue to be in compliance. PENSIONS Mr. M. LeBlanc (Restigouche-Chaleur, L): Mr. Speaker, since the introduction of Bill 17 last week, a lot of information has come our way. However, the narrative conveyed to us by the union starkly contrasts with the version presented by the Premier. In the MOA, arbitrators were supposed to be appointed, yet the government failed to put any names forward. Requests for extension were made by the government.

The growing discontent among all New Brunswick unions is palpable as these developments appear to infringe upon workers’ rights. As the Attorney General stated earlier today, we are a nation of law. However, the government members seem to be selective as to when they respect that. Does the Minister of Finance place value on the Charter of Rights and Freedoms as well as the collective agreement signed in 2021? Can the minister provide clarity on the government’s stance in light of these apparent contradictions? Hon. Mr. Higgs (Quispamsis, Premier, Minister responsible for Intergovernmental Affairs, PC): Mr.

Speaker, there are not any contradictions here. One is a collective agreement, and the other is a memorandum of agreement to satisfy a particular issue in relation to the pensions. The collective agreement is still in force, and no violations of that collective agreement have occurred. However, the MOA is a different story. The timeline has been exceeded by more than a year with no progress. The arbitrator said: There is nothing for me to arbitrate. This is because there is no process that has seen any improvement or any sort of progress at all.

So, in light of all that and in light of a situation that is so clear, based on whether a pension is sustainable or not sustainable and whether it is actually going to be fixed or not fixed, all that we are proposing is a process in legislation that gets the job done, using the actuaries

Legislative Assembly of New Brunswick Oral Questions Original by Hansard Office Translation by Debates Translation 13 from CUPE and the actuaries from the government and going through a whole process that gets an end result. That is what is being— Mr. Speaker (Hon. Bill Oliver): Thank you. Mr. M. LeBlanc (Restigouche-Chaleur, L): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Last week, the Minister of Labour answered one of my questions by saying, and I quote, “My recommendation would be to, as part of this process, get the parties back to the table and come to some viable solution that makes sense for everyone”.

The previous week, the Minister of Finance stated in this House, and I quote, “We cannot ever talk about bargaining in the House very much. We cannot bargain here.” Was Bill 17 ever discussed in caucus? Or was this really just another example of my way or the highway from this Premier? Hon. Ms. Dunn (Saint John Harbour, Minister of Post-Secondary Education, Training and Labour; Minister of Indigenous Affairs; Minister responsible for Immigration, PC): Thank you for the question, Mr. Speaker. It grieves me to see that we have a situation here in which workers are at an impasse with the government.

I can tell you that I spent 32 years negotiating contracts all over Canada. If we start from the premise that you have a defined benefit plan, I was once in a situation where I represented a union with a defined benefit plan, and because it was a nonfunded liability, the employer said that we needed to move away from the defined benefit plan and move into a shared risk plan. That is a very tough decision. The members did not want to move away from a defined benefit plan, and guess what! I agreed with the members. As a union leader, it was my job to support my members.

I can understand why the union leaders are doing that. It makes a lot of sense. But, at the same time, I think that we need to look at the situation that is before us. As you know, I am not participating in bargaining—it is not my job—but if all the information that has come to light for me is the case, when that MOU was signed back in June of 2021, as a union leader, I would have gone to my members— Mr. Speaker (Hon. Bill Oliver): Thank you, minister. Ms. Holt (Bathurst East—Nepisiguit—Saint-Isidore, Leader of the Official Opposition, L): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Yesterday, we saw

an act of political courage, of leadership. The council members in Moncton recognized that a decision that they had taken was taken in haste. They admitted that they were wrong and changed their minds. We will now have a menorah in front of Moncton City Hall at a time when anti-Semitism is on the rise. That was a brave act. It is hard to say that you were wrong, but sometimes it is the right thing to do. We have workers in this province who are worried, and we have the potential threat of a strike for our school bus drivers and our nursing home workers.

These are critical employees in this province who deliver a service. In this legislation, the Premier is proposing components that are already in an MOU. I do not know why he needs to use this

Legislative Assembly of New Brunswick Oral Questions Original by Hansard Office Translation by Debates Translation 14 hammer of legislation when you could achieve the same result with good bargaining and negotiation, something I know that this Premier has been challenged to do. I ask him: Will he get back to the— Mr. Speaker (Hon. Bill Oliver): Time, member. Hon. Mr. Higgs (Quispamsis, Premier, Minister responsible for Intergovernmental Affairs, PC): Mr. Speaker, the process that is being put forward here does exactly what the member opposite is talking about.

The point is that you actually have a process in place that involves every member and that involves every person. They are able to call a line. We are sending out letters to every single member so that they will know who to call. They will know what their pension means and what it means to them. If they are pensioners, it means nothing to them as the plan stays as it is. What stage are you in your career? What does it change for you? People will know what they are talking about. I would ask every one of the members whether they really know the details of their particular situation.

I would gather that they do not, Mr. Speaker. That is a process that the MOA should have had, and my colleague here just stated that she would have been very forthright to let everyone know the situation because it has to be addressed. Now, it is easy for the Leader of the Opposition to say: Well, do something differently. However, fixing it is important to have a pension that is fair to taxpayers and employees and that has a sustainability factor so that it is there when you need it. Mr. Speaker (Hon. Bill Oliver): Thank you. Question period is over.