Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 53 (41st Legislature, 2nd Session)

41-2-53

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Second Session – Forty-First Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Myrna Driedger Speaker Vol. LXX No. 53 - 1:30 p.m., Wednesday, May 17, 2017 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Forty-First Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ALLUM, James Fort Garry-Riverview NDP ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley NDP BINDLE, Kelly Thompson PC CLARKE, Eileen, Hon. Agassiz PC COX, Cathy, Hon. River East PC CULLEN, Cliff, Hon. Spruce Woods PC CURRY, Nic Kildonan PC DRIEDGER, Myrna, Hon. Charleswood PC EICHLER, Ralph, Hon. Lakeside PC EWASKO, Wayne Lac du Bonnet PC FIELDING, Scott, Hon. Kirkfield Park PC FLETCHER, Steven, Hon. Assiniboia PC FONTAINE, Nahanni St. Johns NDP FRIESEN, Cameron, Hon. Morden-Winkler PC GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib.

GOERTZEN, Kelvin, Hon. Steinbach PC GRAYDON, Clifford Emerson PC GUILLEMARD, Sarah Fort Richmond PC HELWER, Reg Brandon West PC ISLEIFSON, Len Brandon East PC JOHNSON, Derek Interlake PC JOHNSTON, Scott St. James PC KINEW, Wab Fort Rouge NDP KLASSEN, Judy Kewatinook Lib. LAGASSÉ, Bob Dawson Trail PC LAGIMODIERE, Alan Selkirk PC LAMOUREUX, Cindy Burrows Lib. LATHLIN, Amanda The Pas NDP LINDSEY, Tom Flin Flon NDP MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood NDP MARCELINO, Flor Logan NDP MARCELINO, Ted Tyndall Park NDP MARTIN, Shannon Morris PC MAYER, Colleen St. Vital PC MICHALESKI, Brad Dauphin PC MICKLEFIELD, Andrew, Hon.

Rossmere PC MORLEY-LECOMTE, Janice Seine River PC NESBITT, Greg Riding Mountain PC PALLISTER, Brian, Hon. Fort Whyte PC PEDERSEN, Blaine, Hon. Midland PC PIWNIUK, Doyle Arthur-Virden PC REYES, Jon St. Norbert PC SARAN, Mohinder The Maples Ind. SCHULER, Ron, Hon. St. Paul PC SELINGER, Greg St. Boniface NDP SMITH, Andrew Southdale PC SMOOK, Dennis La Verendrye PC SQUIRES, Rochelle, Hon. Riel PC STEFANSON, Heather, Hon. Tuxedo PC SWAN, Andrew Minto NDP TEITSMA, James Radisson PC WHARTON, Jeff Gimli PC WIEBE, Matt Concordia NDP WISHART, Ian, Hon.

Portage la Prairie PC WOWCHUK, Rick Swan River PC YAKIMOSKI, Blair Transcona PC Vacant Point Douglas

2157 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, May 17, 2017 The House met at 1:30 p.m. Madam Speaker: O Eternal and Almighty God, from Whom all power and wisdom come, we are assembled here before Thee to frame such laws as may tend to the welfare and prosperity of our province. Grant, O merciful God, we pray Thee, that we may desire only that which is in accordance with Thy will, that we may seek it with wisdom and know it with certainty and accomplish it perfectly for the glory and honour of Thy name and for the welfare of all our people. Amen. Please be seated.

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS Madam Speaker: Introduction of bills? Committee reports? The honourable member for St. Vital (Mrs. Mayer)–oh, the honourable member for Fort Rouge? Mr. Wab Kinew (Fort Rouge): I'd like to ask for leave to move back to introduction of bills. Madam Speaker: Is there leave to move back to introduction of bills? [Agreed] INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 223–The Orange Shirt Day Act Mr. Wab Kinew (Fort Rouge): I move, seconded by the member for The Pas (Ms . Lathlin), that Bill 223, The Orange Shirt D ay Act, be now read a first– An Honourable Member: The seconder's not here. Mr.

Kinew: Oh, I apologize, sorry. Madam Speaker: Does the member have leave to revert–do we have leave to revert back to introduction of bills? [Agreed] Mr. Kinew: Thank you, Madam Speaker, and thanks to all my colleagues for granting that leave. I move, seconded by the member for St. Johns (Ms. Fontaine), that Bill 223, The Orange Shirt Day Act, be now read a first time. Motion presented. Mr. Kinew: I'm pleased to rise in the House today to introduce for first reading Bill 223, The Orange Shirt Day Act. This bill would recognize September 30th in the province of Manitoba as Orange Shirt Day.

Orange Shirt Day is a national commemoration for residential school survivors and the resilience that they embody. It is named after a residential school survivor from British Columbia who wore an orange shirt on her first day to residential school and had it taken away, and, therefore, the orange shirt for her represented the trauma. Today, across the country and in our province of Manitoba, it is used by many teachers to help educate young people about the legacy of residential schools.

Madam Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] COMMITTEE REPORTS Standing Committee on Private Bills Second Report Mrs. Colleen Mayer (Chairperson): Madam Speaker, I wish to present the Second Report of the Standing Committee on Private Bills. Clerk (Ms. Patricia Chaychuk): Your Standing Committee on Private Bills presents the following– Some Honourable Members: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense. Your Standing Committee on PRIVATE BILLS presents the following as its Second Report. Meetings Your Committee met on May 16, 2017 at 6:00 p.m. in Room 254 of the Legislative Building.

Matters under Consideration • Bill (No. 218) – The Red Tape Reduction Day Act/Loi sur la Journée de la réduction du fardeau administratif • Bill (No. 221) – The Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls Awareness Day Act/Loi sur la Journée de sensibilisation aux femmes et aux filles autochtones disparues et assassinées

2158 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17, 2017 Committee Membership • Hon. Mr. Cullen • Mr. Ewasko • Hon. Mr. Fletcher • Ms. Fontaine • Hon. Mr. Gerrard • Ms. Lathlin • Mr. Marcelino • Mrs. Mayer • Hon. Mr. Schuler • Hon. Ms. Squires • Mr. Wharton Your Committee elected Mrs. Mayer as the Chairperson. Your Committee elected Hon. Mr. Fletcher as the Vice-Chairperson.

Public Presentations Your Committee heard the following presentation on Bill (No. 218) – The Red Tape Reduction Day Act/Loi sur la Journée de la réduction du fardeau administratif: Jonathan Alward, Canadian Federation of Independent Business Your Committee heard the following two presentations on Bill (No. 221) – The Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls Awareness Day Act/Loi sur la Journée de sensibilisation aux femmes et aux filles autochtones disparues et assassinées: Sandra DeLaronde, Indigenous Women Leadership and Resource Institute Marcel Balfour, Private Citizen Written Submissions Your Committee received the following written submission on Bill (No. 221) – The Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls Awareness Day Act/Loi sur la Journée de sensibilisation aux femmes et aux filles autochtones disparues et assassinées: Kathy M.

Bent, Private Citizen Bills Considered and Reported • Bill (No. 218) – The Red Tape Reduction Day Act/Loi sur la Journée de la réduction du fardeau administratif Your Committee agreed to report this Bill without amendment. • Bill (No. 221) – The Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls Awareness Day Act/Loi sur la Journée de sensibilisation aux femmes et aux filles autochtones disparues et assassinées Your Committee agreed to report this Bill with the following amendment: THAT the title of the Bill be amended by adding "HONOURING AND" before "AWARENESS". Mrs.

Mayer: I move, seconded by the honourable member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr. Ewasko), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. Standing Committee on Justice Second Report Mr. Doyle Piwniuk (Chairperson): Madam Speaker, I wish to present the Second Report of the Standing Committee on Justice. Clerk: Your Standing Committee on Justice presents the following– Some Honourable Members: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense. Your Standing Committee on JUSTICE pr esents the following as its Second Report. Meetings Your Committee met on May 16, 2017 at 6:00 p.m. in Room 255 of the Legislative Building.

Matters under Consideration • Bill (No. 16) – The Fatality Inquiries Amendment Act/Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les enquêtes médico-légales • Bill (No. 18) – The Legislative Security Act/Loi sur la sécurité de la Cité législative • Bill (No. 25) – The Cannabis Harm Prevention Act (Various Acts Amended)/Loi sur la réduction des méfaits du cannabis (modification de diverses dispositions législatives) • Bill (No. 26) – The Election Financing Amendment Act/Loi modifiant la

Loi sur le financement des élections

May 17, 2017 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2159 Committee Membership • Mr. Allum • Mr. Bindle (Vice-Chairperson) • Mr. Johnston • Ms. Lamoureux • Mr. Michaleski • Ms. Morley-Lecomte • Mr. Piwniuk (Chairperson) • Hon. Mrs. Stefanson • Mr. Swan • Mr. Teitsma • Mr. Wiebe Public Presentations Your Committee heard the following three presentations on Bill (No. 16) – The Fatality Inquiries Amendment Act/Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les enquêtes médico-légales: Corey Shefman, Private Citizen Dr.

Peter Markesteyn, Private Citizen John Hutton, John Howard Society of Manitoba Your Committee heard the following two presentations on Bill (No. 18) – The Legislative Security Act/Loi sur la sécurité de la Cité législative: Michelle Gawronsky, Manitoba Government and General Employees Union James Beddome (by leave), Private Citizen Your Committee heard the following four presentations on Bill (No. 25) – The Cannabis Harm Prevention Act (Various Acts Amended)/Loi sur la réduction des méfaits du cannabis (modification de diverses dispositions législatives): Michelle Gawronsky, Manitoba Government and General Employees Union Steven Stairs, Winnipeg Steven Stairs 420 Organizing Committee Sylvie Sabourin Grindle, Private Citizen Nathan Buschau, Private Citizen Your Committee heard the following two pre - sentations on Bill (No. 26) – The Election Financing Amendment Act/Loi modifiant la

Loi sur le financement des élections: James Beddome (by leave), Private Citizen Darrell Rankin (by leave), Communist Party of Canada – Manitoba Written Submissions Your Committee received the following written submission on Bill (No. 18) – The Legislative Security Act/Loi sur la sécurité de la Cité législative: James Beddome, Private Citizen Your Committee received the following three written submissions on Bill (No. 25) – The Cannabis Harm Prevention Act (Various Acts Amended)/Loi sur la réduction des méfaits du cannabis (modification de diverses dispositions législatives): Kevin Rebeck, Manitoba Federation of Labour Miranda Ferraro, Private Citizen Ashleigh Brown, Private Citizen Your Committee received the following two written submissions on Bill (No. 26) – The Election Financing Amendment Act/Loi modifiant la

Loi sur le financement des élections: Kevin Rebeck, Manitoba Federation of Labour James Beddome, Private Citizen Bills Considered and Reported • Bill (No. 16) – The Fatality Inquiries Amendment Act/Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les enquêtes médico-légales Your Committee agreed to report this Bill, without amendment, on a counted vote of 6 Yeas, 3 Nays. • Bill (No. 18) – The Legislative Security Act/Loi sur la sécurité de la Cité législative Your Committee agreed to report this Bill without amendment. • Bill (No. 25) – The Cannabis Harm Prevention Act (Various Acts Amended)/Loi sur la réduction des méfaits du cannabis (modification de diverses dispositions législatives) Your Committee agreed to report this Bill, without amendment, on a counted vote of 6 Yeas, 4 Nays. • Bill (No. 26) – The Election Financing Amendment Act/Loi modifiant la

Loi sur le financement des élections Your Committee agreed to report this Bill, without amendment, on a counted vote of 7 Yeas, 3 Nays. Mr. Piwniuk: Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable member for Thompson (Mr. Bindle), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to.

2160 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17, 2017 Madam Speaker: Tabling of reports? MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Madam Speaker: The honourable Minister for Sport, Culture and Heritage, and I would indicate that the 90 minutes notice prior to routine pro - ceedings was provided in accordance with our rule 26(2). Would the honourable minister please proceed with her statement. International Day Against Homophobia, Transphobia and Biphobia Hon.

Rochelle Squires (Minister of Sport, Culture and Heritage ): Today is the International Day Against Homopho bia, Transphobia and Biphobia, and I rise in this Chamber to reaffirm our P rovince's support of fundamental equali ty and freedom for all Manitobans, especially to the LGBTQ* community. It is important for all of us to work together to ensure liberty and freedom for all our people, regardless of gender or sexual orientation. We support a person's ability to live and lo ve as one chooses and to pursue one's dreams free of discrimination.

We also mark this day by reaffirming our steadfast commitment to end ing bullying in all its forms. We must strive to achieve a society that is free of oppression and that cannot occur when there are still those amongst us who are marginalized. As Manitobans and Canadians, we remain ever mindful of the need to improve circumstances here at home and the plight of those abroad, especially in countries with deplorable human rights records against gays, lesbians and trans persons. We stand on the side of equality and freedom and will continue to advocate for those principles in all our endeavours.

Madam Speaker, I welcome all members to join me in marking this important day of ending homo - phobia, transphobia and biphobia, not just today, but every day of the year. Mr. Wab Kinew (Fort Rouge): Today is the international day against homophobia, biphobia and transphobia. It gives us a chance to speak out against these forms of discrimination a nd a chance to come together as allies to raise awareness. The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and the Manitoba Human Rights Code enshrine our rights to live free from discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation and gender identity.

Despite this, prejudices still exist. Homophobia can be expressed in many ways. I myself have had to work hard to change my own biases and to stop using language that is disrespectful of our LGBTTQ* relatives. Discrimin atory hiring and promotion practices based on sexual orientation and treating same- sex families differently from opposite-sex families are other common forms of homophobia.

Transphobia and biphobia are also unique forms of discrimination which threaten the safety and liv es of people who are gender nonconforming or who locate themselves along a spectrum of sexual identity. * (13:40) On a personal level , I have been deeply moved by the stories of two-spirit and trans youth who have committed suicide. That past attitudes I once held have contributed to the sort of shame which can lead a young person to take their own life has motivated me to spend the rest of my life combatting this hate– Madam Speaker: The member's time has expired.

An Honourable Member: I ask for leave to continue the statement. Madam Speaker: Does the member have leave to complete his statement? [Agreed] The honourable member, to quickly complete his statement. Mr. Kinew: There's many upcoming events across the province that showcase the strength and resilience of the LGBTTQ* community, especially Pride Winnipeg's upcoming festivities, notably the pride parade. I would encourage all members to participate and remind us all that whoever we choose to love and whatever form that –of expression that love takes, let us all remember that it is the same love. Miigwech. Hon.

Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Madam Speaker, I ask leave to speak to the minister's statement. Madam Speaker: Does the member have leave to speak to the minister's statement? [Agreed] Mr. Gerrard: Madam Speaker , today, on International Day Against Homophobia, Transphobia and Biphobia, people all over Manitoba and around the world stand tall against all forms of hate,

May 17, 2017 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2161 discrimination and stigma based on sexual orientation and gender identity. In just a few weeks, we will celebrate the 30th anniversary of the Pride Winnipeg Festival. The festival has grown immensely since the first pride march back in August of 1987. In that first march, a few people wore paper bags over their heads to conceal their identities out of fear of discrimination. Madam Speaker, 30 years later, and the LGBTTQ community is still fighting for equality. The theme of this year's pride festival is: Resurgence.

Pride Winnipeg says they chose this theme because several members of our community who identify as bisexual, trans-identified, two-spirited, non-binary, queer and queer people of colour are still subjected to discrimination and stigma from our society. Madam Speaker, diversity is our strength. The government of all of Manitoba and all of us as elected officials must stand together and continue to stand against bullying– Madam Speaker: The member's time has expired. An Honourable Member: Could I have leave just to– Madam Speaker: Does the member have leave to complete his statement? [Agreed] Mr.

Gerrard: All of us must stand together and continue to stand up against bullying, discrimination, intolerance and stigma, not just today, but every day. Thank you. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Model United Nations 60th Anniversary Hon. Heather Stefanson (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I am pleased to rise in the House today to recognize the 60th anniversary of Winnipeg's Model United Nations. Two weeks ago, I had the honour to address the 64 delegations gathered fr om across Canada and the Midwestern United States at this year's Model UN, held at Canadian Mennonite University in my constituency.

The Model UN program gives students the opportunity to learn about the operations of the United Nations by participating in a realistic simulated assembly. Countless people, including members of this House, have developed a keener interest in the practice of politics and foreign affairs because of Winnipeg's Model United Nations. By participating in challenging debates and negotiations, students learn invaluable lessons about how we build communities and ensure respect in our domestic and global affairs.

Most importantly, Winnipeg's Model UN teaches our future leaders about diplomacy and collaboration in the face of competing interests. This is difficult work, but this year I am proud to say that the delegation that came out on top was from Manitoba's own Minnedosa Collegiate. Students Ryan McLenehan and Michael Kreshewski, as well as counsellor Donna Alexander, won the Bert Friesen award for the Best Prepared Delegation , representing the country of Egypt.

I am hopeful that the students of Minnedosa Collegiate and all participating delegations, including my daughter Victoria and her friend Katherine, will use the lessons they learned at Winnipeg's Model United Nations to become the next generation of leaders. I would also like to recognize the Rotary Club of Winnipeg, which sponsors this extraordinary event every year. In 1957, the Rotary Club of Winnipeg became the first clu b to sponsor a model UN as part of the organization's mission to advance international understanding.

The Rotary Club of Winnipeg is an asset to our community and I hope they will continue to help educate the leaders of tomorrow by sponsoring the Model UN for another 60 years. And I want to thank our guests who are –have joined us in the gallery today. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker: The honourable Minister of Justice. Mrs. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, I ask for leave to have the names of the guest s from Minnedosa Collegiate and the Rotary Club included in Hansard.

Madam Speaker: Does the member have leave to have those names included in Hansard? [Agreed] Minnedosa Collegiate: Donna Alexander, Levi Gregorash, Michael Kreshewski Rotary Club of Winnipeg: Elly Hoogterp-Hurst, Jane Markesteyn, Cathy Stephens, Pat Vallance, Roy Vallance

2162 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17, 2017 Aboriginal Practical Nursing Program Ms. Nahanni Fontaine (St. Johns): I'm honoured to acknowledge the 20 all-female indigenous students enrolled in the Assiniboi ne Community College's Aboriginal practical nursing program in Portage la Prairie, alongside their dedicated instructors. I was thrilled to visit the students on campus, experiencing first -hand the phenomenal classroom programming, which includes adult and newborn health-care training mannequins that I was allowed to poke and prod at.

I was fascinated to find out , Madam Speaker, there are actually mannequins that repeatedly give birth over and over again, training new nurses in birthing methods, those poor things. This program is a great example of training indigenous women in areas having transformative results not only in their own lives, but in the lives of indigenous peoples across Manitoba. Most of the students are mothers , Madam Speaker. One of the students is a mother of nine children. In the fall, one student quietly gave birth to her baby on a Wednesday and was back at school on the Monday.

Several students shared why th e program is so important to them, indicating they wanted to honour their family's members once engaged and dependent on our health-care system, others simply for the love of our people. I received a message after my visit from a student which I believe best highlights the program, and I quote: For seven years, I have been seeking entry into every and every nursing program in Manitoba, every time faced with an obstacle that ultimately defeated me. I became pregnant at an early age. I had no choice but to move to a small town in rural Manitoba.

It felt like a death sente nce for my nursing dream. I was too pregnant, too par – too poor and too far away. I nearly accepted my fate until the APN program was born. Now I am a straight-A student. If I had been told two years ago where I would be right now, excelling at nursing school, I wouldn't have believed it. Madam Speaker, when we lift up indigenous women, we lift up ourselves as Manitobans , and this program, I believe, best illustrates it– Madam Speaker: The honourable member's time has expired. Ms.

Fontaine: Madam Speaker, I ask for leave of – for the names of the students, instructors and First Nation funders of the program be added into Hansard.

Madam Speaker: Is there leave to have those names included in Hansard? [Agreed] Students: Alexis Beaulieu, Melissa Beck, Mallor ie French, Melissa King, Jody Levasseur, Jocelyn McIvor, Laurie McLeod, Tessa McLeod, Ashlei Orton, Christine Roulette, Gina Roulette, Whitney Soldier, Heather Spence, Jessica Spence, Lena Spence, Kaitlynn Squires, Brandy Strong, Kayla Taylor, Wendy Vivier, Jessica Wiebe Assiniboine Community College: Karen Hargreaves, dean of health and h uman services; Cecil Roulette, Aboriginal councillor; Holly Vezina , co-ordinator/instructor, Aboriginal practical nurses program; i nstructors, Aboriginal practical nurses program: Kirk Joyce, Soroush Khoeiniha, Shahrzad Rahimizadeh Guests: Gloria Beaulieu, post -secondary education counsellor, Swan Lake First Nation; Lorraine Daniels, Long Plain First Nation; Leslie Dorie, youth co- ordinator, Sagkeeng Employment & Training Services, from Sagkeeng First Nation; Lori French, post -secondary/high school liaison, Swan Lake First Nation; Shawna Kemble, First People's Development; Barb Moran, First People's Development; Denise Thomas, Manitoba Metis Federation UNLOCKED: Stories of the Interlake Mr.

Jeff Wharton (Gimli): I rise in the House today to recognize UNLOCKED: Stories of the Interlake, a travelling exhibit that is the result of a collaborative effort between the Interlake Tourism Association and the 10 Interlake museums. Replica steamer trunks are traveling the province with artifacts and stories from the Interlake's early history. Travelling far and wide since May 2014, this display has enlightened visitors with tales of intrigue and accomplishment from Manitoba's earliest days as a province.

A project such as this is no small feat and exemplifies what can done when organizations pool their resources and act as a team. Thank you to the St. Andrews Rectory and heritage centre, the New Iceland Herit age Museum in Gimli, Arbo rg heritage v illage, Ashern Pioneer Museum, Eriksdale Museum, Marine Museum of Manitoba, Oak Hammock Marsh Interpretive Centre, Quarry Park Heritage Arts, Teulon and District Museum and Woodlands Pioneer Museum for

May 17, 2017 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2163 sharing these stories and for the work they have–they do preserving and presenting Manitoba's rich and diverse culture and heritage. The UNLOCKED exhibit is a small example of how Manitoba's museums contribute to the thriving culture tourism in our province. The trunks will be on display at the Legislature until the 26th on the west side of the Grand Staircase. I would encourage all members to visit. Madam Speaker, Gail McDonald, manager of the Interlake Tourism Association, and repre - sentatives from these museums are in the gallery today.

I'd like to ask my fellow members to join me in congratulating them on the development of this exhibit. Thank you, Madam Speaker. * (13:50) Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Gimli (Mr. Wharton). Mr. Wharton: Madam Speaker, I ask leave to have the names entered in Hansard. Madam Speaker: Is there leave to have their names included in Hansard? [Agreed] Jacques Bourgeois, Heather Hinam, Gail J. McDonald Team Zacharias–Curling Champions Mr. Cliff Graydon (Emerson): Madam Speaker, today it gives me great pleasure to honour four amazing young women and their tireless coach from the constituency of Emerson.

In attendance today, wearing their provincial jackets, is Team Zacharias, the recent 2017 Curl Manitoba U18 provincial champions. The team consists of Mackenzie Zacharias, third, Morgan Reimer; second, Emily Zacharias; lead, Paige Beaudry; and coach, Sheldon Zacharias, who hail from the Altona Curling Club. Both individually and together, all members of Team Zach arias have a lengthy list of accom - plishments. For example, as the newest addition in January, Paige played amazingly and helped her new team claim the top spot on a podium for the third straight year.

At the inaugural curl Canada U18 national championships in Moncton, Emily was awarded the second team all -star award for her outstanding play. And Mackenzie and Emily are both former winners of the Curl Manitoba Asham U18 provincial championships and have made history by becoming the first Manitoba women c hamp curlers to win the U18 provincials three years in a row. Together with third, Morgan, those –these women also made history by being the youngest team to participate in the 2016 Manitoba Scotties women's provincial championships.

Madam Speaker, the list of accomplishments listed above only begins to scratch the surface of what this amazing and –individuals and teammates have managed to accomplish in their short time contending. Your competitive nature and unwavering spirit will only add to your list of accomplishments in the future, and I would politely issue a friendly warning to another Manitoba curling team to be honoured in this Legislature: Watch out, Jennifer Jones, there's a new sheriff in town. I would ask all colleagues to join me in welcoming the Zacharias team to the Legislature. Mr.

Graydon: Madam Speaker, could I–would I get leave to include the names of the parents that are accompanying the team? Madam Speaker: Does the member have leave to have those names included in Hansard? [Agreed] Greg Beaudry, Sheri Beaudry, Sheila Reimer, Taylor Reimer Dakota Community Centre Hon. Rochelle Squires (Minister of Sport, Culture and Heritage): Madam Speaker, I'm proud today to rise to recognize and honour the Dakota Communit y Centre in my riding of Riel. Dakota is celebrating its 30th anniversary in 2017 and, over the last 30 years, it has become an integral part of our vibrant Riel community.

The Centre was incorporated on January 29, 1987, and shortly thereafter construct ion of phase 1 of the facility began. Dakota has since evolved and grown and become a place that promotes health and wellness in our community. Dakota offers a wide range of sports, recreational and community services that serve a diverse and growing population. Dedicated staff, board members and an enthusiastic core of volunteers all work together to make Dakota a place that binds the community together. They ensure that

2164 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17, 2017 Dakota fulfills its mission to be a gathering place for excellence in recreation and sports for everyone. Dakota Community Centre is also a place where preschoolers can attend daycare, young people can participate in a wide variety of sports, social gatherings are held and seniors can stay healthy and active. The Dakota Community Centr e facility, the Jonathan Toews Sportsplex, is close to 100,000 square feet of indoor recreational space.

This complex has indoor ice arenas, a gymnasium, a nursery school and meeting and multipurpose rooms for a wide variety of use. Madam Speaker, the fut ure for Dakota is very exciting as they expand to better serve our com - munity. They are in the process of building a 60,000-square-foot field house scheduled to be open in September. The Dakota Futures Capital Campaign is raising funds for this expansion and has received a huge boost from a $1- million donation from Jonathan Toews in 2016.

The success of the centre is proof that great things can happen when everyone works together to build a healthy, engaged and inclusive community, and I would like all mem bers of the House to help me welcome my guests from Dakota Community Centre. Madam Speaker: The honourable Minister of Sport, Culture and Heritage (Ms. Squires). Ms. Squires : Madam Speaker, I ask for leave to have the names of my guests from the Dakota Community Centre entered into Hansard.

Madam Speaker: Is there leave to have the guests' names included in Hansard? [Agreed] Randy Anderson, Miche le Augert, Erin Homewood, Bob Saelens, Tom Thiessen Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to oral questions, we do have some other guests in the gallery. We have seated in the public gallery, from Immanuel Christian School, 22 grade 9 students under the direction of Rob Bonefa as, and this group is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Radisson (Mr. Teitsma). On behalf of all honourable members here, we welcome you to the Manitoba Legislature.

ORAL QUESTIONS Vale's Nickel Mine Operations Impact of Closure on Northern Manitoba Ms. Flor Marcelino (Leader of the Official Opposition): The Premier has no plan for northern Manitoba. Hundreds of jobs are on the chopping block, when shipments from the Port of Churchill have ceased and now Vale has announced that i t will be suspending operations at the Birchtree Mine this fall. Add to this the looming loss of the smelter and refinery in 2018, and the community of Thompson is facing the loss of 500 additional jobs. In a small community this will have a very significant impact.

What has the Premier done to encourage Vale to keep its investments in Manitoba? Hon. Brian Pallister (Premier): Our hearts go out to those families affected, those individuals affected, Madam Speaker, with these layoffs. We knew that this mine was slated for closure, but that doesn't make it any easier and I know that the road to progress is never one that is an easy one to climb.

As Manitoba's new government we'll work diligently with the communities in the North and throughout the province to make sure that we partner on economic progress, because we know that a good job and a new job is critical to the security a family wants to have for itself and for its future. This is an important undertaking and it's one we'll pursue with great diligence, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker: The honourable interim Leader of the Official Opposition, on a supplementary question. Ms. Marcelino: The Premier has a lot of words for northern Manitoba, but not a lot of action.

As my colleague revealed yesterday, the Premier has spent $100,000 on an out -of-country consultant to talk about the North. But when the chips are down the governm ent really has no plans to face the challenges of our resource communities: 200 good- paying jobs lost this fall and potentially hundreds more next year. Why is the Premier hanging Thompson and northern communities out to dry? Mr. Pallister: Well, Madam Speaker, we're reaching out and co- operating and working enthusiastically with representatives from northern communities, indigenous, nonindigenous northern communities

May 17, 2017 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2165 related directly to mining industry and others with more diverse economic b asis. And we're doing this because we want to pursue a Yes! North strategy that moves us forward. Golden Boy faces north for a good reason, Madam Speaker: there is potential there and we want to see that potential discovered. Madam Speaker: The honourable interim Leader of the Official Opposition, on a final supplementary. Ms. Marcelino: Thompson and communities in the North are facing a growing crisis.

The Premier, however, sends ministers and they come back without results for the North –base consultants, when what the North really needs is commitment. The Premier and his ministers seem content to simply say, well, that's just the way it goes. It's not good enough. What plans today does the Premier have to address this growing crisis? Mr. Pallister: Northerners have communicated to all our caucus members, and I expect to members opposite, as well, their weariness, under the previous administration, of being taken for granted.

They noted with some frustration the previous admin - istration venturing up to their communities with cheques and promises of jobs through–that they hadn't yet to fulfill in 17 years of administration of the province, Madam Speaker. * (14:00) They did this for self-serving reasons, but I don't believe, Madam Speaker, that northern ers believed that effort was sincere after all those years of not finding progress, at being ranked below 20th in terms of attractiveness for mining, of lagging the country in terms of prospecting for mineral resources. We are changing that culture, Madam Speaker.

We've moved up in the rankings to second in terms of attractiveness for mining. We lead the country now in small business optimism, and that optimism is shared by people in northern Manitoba, as well – deservedly so. Mine Closures in Thompson Government Plan for Workforce Ms. Amanda Lathlin (The Pas): Vale has announced the closure of the Birchtree Mine and the looming closure of the smelter and the refinery, which means hundreds of good- paying jobs are at risk in Thompson–this after the Port of Churchill closed and the rail service in the North has been cut back.

There has been a lot of talk from the government and some looking around at the beluga whales as tourists, but no action. What actions has the minister taken for the people of Thompson? Hon. Cliff Cullen (Minister of Growth, Enterprise and Trade): I do appreciate the question relative to Thompson and certainly northern Manitoba, and we certainly have been discussing the situation with northern Manitobans. Clearly, there's a lot of work to do, and we have sympathy for the workers that are going to be impacted as a result of this particular closure.

In talking with Vale, though, this week, I know they are committed to the future. They're currently working on a major capital project in terms of their unloading facility there. So we will continue to work in partnership with Vale, with the workers there and certainly with the community. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for The Pas, on a supplementary question. Ms. Lathlin: With all due respect, we need actions, not sympathy. It's disheartening to see that even the member for Thompson (Mr. Bindle) seems to have given up on his own home community.

CBC reports that the member for Thompson is not worried about northern Manitoba's mining future. Well, I can share with him that–this government, that the people of northern Manitoba are deeply worried about the future of Thompson and the future of their families and their communities. What action has the government taken for the people of Thompson? Mr. Cullen: Clearly, we do have a lot o f work to do in northern Manitoba and throughout Manitoba. Quite frankly, Madam Speaker, we inherited an economic mess in northern Manitoba.

Seventeen years, the NDP government ignored Manitobans in the North, they ignored the communities of the North and they used –ignored the business community of the North. There's a lot of rebuilding there to do, Madam Speaker. We're a government that is prepared to do that. And working in partnership with northern Manitobans, we will build northern Manitoba. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for The Pas, on a final supplementary.

2166 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17, 2017 Ms. Lathlin: Here's the logic of the members opposite: they deal with demand in health -care system by closing emergency rooms; they deal with the need for opportunity for young people by jacking up their costs; now the member for Thompson mouths the words diversification without a commitment and without a plan. What exactly is the member for Thompson (Mr. Bindle) and the minister going to do to exactly assist the people of Thompson? Mr.

C ullen: Well, Madam Speaker, let me remind members of the mess that we inherited here, the economic mess we inherited in northern Manitoba. In terms of mining–[interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. Mr. Cullen : –we were –less than 2 per cent of exploration money was coming into Manitoba because there was no positive framework for economic development to encourage investment in Manitoba. [interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. Mr. Cullen: They chose to ignore the mining sector altogether. We are investing in the mining sector to attract that money. Money goes where it's wanted.

We are going to set the foundation and the frame - work to make –allow Manitobans and other people from around the w orld to invest in Manitoba and grow the mining sector here in Manitoba. Vale's Nickel Mine Closure Workforce Retraining Plan Mr. Wab Kinew (Fort Rouge): I'd first like to acknowledge it is International Day Against Homophobia, Transphobia and Biphobia. So, again, on the upcoming Vale mine closure in Thompson, this could put up to 200 northern Manitobans out of work, and that poses serious questions about our plans for education and training.

When a community like Thompson is hit hard by job losses, Man itobans need to know that there is a plan to keep them working and for their kids to get good jobs. So what is this government's plan to retrain workers affected by the mine's closure? Hon. Ian Wishart (Minister of Education and Training): I thank the member for the question. In fact, we have already begun working with the community group that has been put in place with the City of Thompson and Vale to offer retraining facilities and options to people that will be affected in the community.

We've had a number of programs in the past in that community that have been very successful and we anticipate that we will be able to help in this process as needed. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Fort Rouge, on a supplementary question. Mr. Kinew: There's another closure coming up next year: a smelter that is scheduled to be taken offline which could mean hundreds of additional job losses next year. So the Vale mine closure in Thompson will hurt workers, their families and northern–the northern economy. How will this government replace hundreds of good-paying jobs each year?

We know that they've spoken to Vale, but they have not spoken to the union which represents the workers themselves. They have yet to hear from their MLA. They have yet to hear from this government. If they did pick up the phone, they would hear a simple question: What is the plan to retrain workers? Mr. Wishart: If the member would bother to check with the local union, he would find that we have in fact been in contact them–'sevel' years. The previous government was part of the whole negotiation that will lead to the closure of the smelter up there. This is not new.

It was well known and we have put in place a very strong plan to work with the local community, including the union members, of course, to make sure that they have options now and into the future. We hope the community will have a chance to rebuild and we'll be part of that rebuild. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Fort Rouge, on a final supplementary. Mr. Kinew: I just got off the phone with the union rep shortly before I came into the Chamber for question period and they had not heard from this government with respect to retraining workers. The job market is uncertain.

Mines – [interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. Mr. Kinew: –are closing. Layoffs are increasing. Precarious work is growing.

May 17, 2017 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2167 Manitobans have yet to see a plan from this government about how they're going to invest in good jobs and education towards the jobs of the future. Instead, we see wage freezes and f reezes to post-secondary funding. What is the Premier planning specifically to do to create the jobs for the future and to train people for them? Mr. Wishart: As I said before, we have been a part of a group with the federal government and the local community, including the city and the union, to work towards a –some options for training in that community for some time.

So, certainly, I would suggest that the member needs to check his facts. But we are certainly working very strongly with post-secondary institutions to get greater access. We have provided additional dollars to Manitoba Scholarship and Bursary Initiative, provide greater access to post -secondary education than that government ever did. Point Douglas By-Election Political Advertising Mr. Andrew Swan (Minto): Madam Speaker, time and time again, this Premier says one thing and does another. While he campaigned on transparency and accountability, he now refuses to answer even the most basic of questions.

Now this Premier has ignored the re striction on government advertising during the Point Douglas by- election with advertisements running in print, on radio, on television and in social media. Why does this Premier think he should be able to play by a different set of rules? Hon. Brian Pallister (Premier): Well, if the member would share with me the allegations he's making–he's made a number of false allegations in the past, Madam Speaker, as recently as yesterday, and so it serves to give one pause to question the sincerity and the legitimacy of his charges.

Nonetheless, due to the amount of the respect I have for the constituents he attempts to serve, I will certainly entertain any information he has and we'll do everything we can to make sure that we observe the letter and law of the advertising restrictions which the previous government so frequently ignored during their time in office. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Minto, on a supplementary question. * (14:10) Mr. Swan: Yes, Madam Speaker, this Premier ordered his Healt h Minister to close emergency rooms across Winnipeg.

As damage control, the government now has the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority spending tens of thousands of dollars on an advertising and promotional campaign to try and convince Manitobans that closi ng ERs and urgent - care centres is a good idea. Not only the WRHA logo, but also the government logo appears on these ads. But this is clearly part of the Premier's partisan political program, and this Premier's using public funds to support his program by advertising during the Point Douglas by-election. Why is the Premier ignoring Manitoba's election financing laws? Hon.

Kelvin Goertzen (Minister of Health , Seniors and Active Living ): Well, for the last number of weeks, Madam Speaker, the opposition' s been demanding more information on the health-care plan. They said it was a health emergency and there needed to be more information. Now the member for Minto stands up and demands that there be less information about the issues of health.

Certainly, we know that there's been information provided to the regional health authorities, all regional health authorities, about the blackout and the rules, and they are intended to be followed, and we expect they will follow them, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Minto, on a final supplementary. Mr. Swan: Madam Speaker, this Premier claims his hacksaw approach to our medical system is historic. As part of his attempt to convince Manitobans that closing ERs is a good idea, the government is now spending tens of thousands of public dollars on a promotional campaign.

The Premier had complete control over the timing of the Point Douglas by -election. No premier should 'luse' public dollars to influence election campaigns, and no premier should ignore laws– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order. Order. Mr. Swan: –no premier should ignore laws that are clear. The Premier is refusing to follow the rules, and he's undermining a level playing field. Will he today acknowledge his mistake and pull the WRHA damage control campaign?

2168 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17, 2017 Mr. Pallister: Well, I've already undertaken, Madam Speaker, to make sure that we do everything possible to abide by the letter of the law and to go beyond, in fact, to make sure that the by -election presently being conducted is conducted fairly and fair to all candidates, because we respect the process, as I know most members here do.

That being said, I would encourage the member to understand that it is with some natural r eluctance that I accept his guidance as factual, given his false assertions of recent days in –for which his own leader had to apologize yesterday. The member needs to understand that his con- duct is not only reprehensible but beneath contempt and that it is disgusting to his own members, the members of his own caucus. And so it would be his opportunity to rise in this place today and apologize if he were truly interested–[interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. Mr.

Pallister: –rather than heckling from his seat, if he were truly interested in restoring some sense of integrity to his own conduct and falsely –and apologize for falsely maligning not only my character but the character of all here in elected office, Madam Speaker. Southern Health Authority Need for Home-Care Workers Mr. Matt Wiebe (Concordia): Madam Speaker, a recent freedom of information request obtained by the opposition shows that the need for public home - care services is increasing in southern Manitoba, but there are less and less workers in the system to provide them.

The southern regional health authority reports that when this government came to power in 2016, there were 715 home -care aides working in the region, but a little less than a year later, there are now 674. At the same time, in May 2016, there were 1,691 clients served by those home -care aides, and the number has now jumped to 1,734. Can the minister explain to families why he stood by as the southern– southern Manitoba lost 41 people in its home-care workforce this year? Hon.

Kelvin Goertzen (Minister of Health , Seniors and Active Living ): Madam Speaker, certainly, we acknowledge that home care is an important part of the health -care system. It's important to ensure that people can be at home for as long as they possibly can when they're dealing with a medical illness or a long-term issue with their health. There's a number of different options when it comes to home care. Family - and self-managed care is something that is important. I don't think it's been advocated enough for under the previous government for the previous 17 years. There are a number of different options.

We want to provide people as many options as possible, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Concordia, on a supplementary question. Mr. Wiebe: Madam Speaker, the shortage of home - care workers in the system are a clear indication that the minister's cuts to RHAs are having a direct impact on patient care. The senior population is growing across Manitoba, but particularly in the southern region.

The Southern Health RHA saw 642 seniors added to their clientele in just the last five years, but this minister has cut millions of dollars from the RHAs and made it impossible for them to prepare for the pressures that aren't just down the road, but are starting to affect the health- care system now. Does the minister admit that the Southern Health RHA needs more funding, not less, to hire home-care workers that can handle the increased workload? Mr.

Goertzen : The southern regional health authority does need more funding, and that's why they're getting record funding, an increase of funding this year, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Concordia, on a final supplementary. Mr. Wiebe: On top of the cuts that have been imposed by this minister, they've also now been–put pressure–there's been pressure been put on because of the private companies who are now leaching some of the workers out of our public system and charging families for that care that they once received for free.

The health -care minister has opened the door to privatization of our health- care system and, apparently, home care is his first target. A recent StatsCan report shows that seniors now outnumber young people in Canada. This means there's more seniors who can't afford private health care and who will be relying on our provincial program to meet their needs. Will this minister stand up for the public delivery of home-care services and protect the public system by investing in it? Mr. Goertzen: Madam Speaker, it wasn't that long ago, when the NDP were in government, that the

May 17, 2017 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2169 former premier said that flat was the new up, and now we have another narrative from the NDP where they think that up is the new down. I've already indicated to the member opposite on the previous question; I indicated to him yesterday; I've said it in the 13 and a half hours that we've spent in Estimates time, and I'll spend it in the next 13 and a half hours saying t he same thing: The budget for the RHAs is going up, not down, Madam Speaker. Post-Secondary Institutions Government Consultations Ms.

Cindy Lamoureux (Burrows): There is an obvious trend with how this government is choosing to do business with the people of Manitoba. This government continues to make grand announcements without consultations and then they attempt to come up with a plan. Madam Speaker, this is completely backwards. This morning we learned that the Premier plans to force a 15 per cent cut to the management staff at post-secondary institutions. These schools had no idea this was coming. So my question is: Who was consulted? Hon.

Cameron Friesen (Minister of Finance): Our government has been clear that we inherited a mess, a debt that had doubled in eight fiscal years, a – debt service charges that are increasing rapidly by millions of dollars, the inability of the previous government to match revenues and expenditures over a long period of time. These are significant challenges and challenges that we are addressing as a new government. We have been very clear with Manitobans that we wanted the opportunity to face this challenge. We are facing i t head on, and our approach, as we've been clear, is a all-hands-on-deck approach.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Burrows, on a supplementary question. Ms. Lamoureux: In other words, Madam Speaker, no one was consulted. Our universities and colleges have already been forced to cut jobs in administration and programs to stay within their limited budgets set by this government. This latest announcement adds to the long list of Manitobans waiting to hear the fate of their livelihoods. This government continues to make cuts before they consult, so I’d like to ask the government if they have any more planned cuts to education. Mr.

Friesen: Madam Speaker, I thank the member for the question. We were also clear as a government that we would lead by example. It's why, in the early days of our mandate, we reduced the number of Cabinet ministers from 18 to 12, took a number of steps to lead by example. As a matter of fact, we also addressed the level of our own senior management within core government senior management levels and middle management that had grown by four times the rate of the overall civil service. We did address that. We're right now in the middle of an overall initiative to reduce that significantly, and we are on track.

I'd like to report to the House that we are on track for the reductions that we're making. * (14:20) We've been clear, Madam Speaker; this is a very big challenge we're facing. We need to face it, all of us together, and we expect everyone to do their part. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Burrows, on a final supplementary. Ms. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, this Premier seems to be unaware that despite receiving pub lic funding, universities are independent institutions that are outside of government control.

This announce - ment follows the Premier's direct interference with the bargaining process at the University of Manitoba just this past fall. This–why is the Premier taking a page from the former NDP government and micromanaging our independent institutions? Hon. Brian Pallister (Premier): Madam Speaker, well, this is consistent with the Ottawa -west philosophies of the third party in the House. They take the position that the budget will simply balance itself. No action needs to be taken, nothing needs to be done.

This seems to be the position advocated by the members opposite, consistent with a federal government that takes over a balanced budget and proceeds to turn it into a 30- plus-billion-dollar deficit. This is not how we're going to do things here. We inherited a mess. We inherited a billion -dollar deficit; we're going to reduce it. We consulted with thousands of front -line civil servants, Madam Speaker, and you know what they told us? They told us it was just too big at the top of the organization. They consistently told us that. Throughout govern-

2170 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17, 2017 ment, throughout Crown corporations, throughout the MUSH sector that's what front -line civil servants will tell you, if you care to listen to them. We are. We have. We will. Canadian Forces Members MPI Accepts Military ID Mr. Jon Reyes (St. Norbert ): Madam Speaker, since my appointment just over a year ago as Special Envoy for Military Affairs, I've attended many, many events listening to our proud men and women in uniform at changing command parades, on my visits to 17 Wing Winnipeg air force base and my first official visit to CFB Shilo last month.

I'm always striving to make life easier fo r our military personnel who are posted here in Manitoba. I understand the challenges when it comes to interprovincial moves, as I served proudly myself for 10 years in the Canadian Armed Forces. Can the hard- working Minister of Crown Services please explain to the House how the recent changes will make transitioning to our province easier for our proud military personnel? Hon. Ron Schuler (Minister of Crown Services): Madam Speaker, I thank the member for the question.

And I want to thank the men and women of Canada's military who have dedicated their lives to serving our nation, in particular, the member for St. Norbert and his 10 years of active service. Our government was proud to recently announce that Manitoba Public Insurance would now accept military ID and Canadian Forces driver's licences as proof of identity when applying for a Manitoba driver's licence or identification card. This sub- stantial change will make it much easier for members of the Canadian Forces in their transition to friendly Manitoba when posted here. Our government is proud to be doing our

part in supporting our troops. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Minimum Wage Increase Creation of a Living Wage Ms. Nahanni Fontaine (St. Johns): When the NDP came into power in 1999, the minimum wage was $6.00. The Premier's Bill 33, if it were still in place, Manitoba would now have the lowest minimum wage in the country. But Manitobans have come to expect an increase to the minimum wage in a balanced and meaningful way. After freezing the minimum wage for a year, the minister now proposes freezing the purchasing power of low -income Manitobans into the future.

Will the minister instead bring forward a long - term plan to move Manitobans to a living wage? Hon. Cliff Cullen (Minister of Growth, Enterprise and Trade): I just want to remind members of the House that we take consulting with Manitobans to be very important. Certainly, from this government, we've done that. And we heard back from Manitobans and they're looking for consistency and predictability. And the business community is, certainly, wage earners are looking for that predictability, as well. We believe the indexing formula–[interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. Mr.

Cullen : –that we've introduced in Bill 33 provides that predictability to Manitobans. Clearly, other provinces have moved to this model, as well. So in our consultations with Manitobans this is what they've asked for: consistency and predictability. We've delivered. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for St. Johns, on a supplementary question. Ms. Fontaine: So, the Manitobans that he consulted with want 15 cents, that's what they've consulted? That–I doubt that. The minister said in this House he very much would like to bring more people, and I quote, up and above the minimum poverty wage. So what did he do?

He merely rubbed three nickels together and froze the purchasing power of low-income earners. Here's an idea for the minister, Madam Speaker: deliver a plan for increases above the cost of living and raise thousands of Manitobans out of poverty. It's a simple idea, but one that progressive people across the world are embracing. Will the minister reconsider his approach by increasing and moving us towards a living wage? Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order. Mr. Cullen: Well, it's interesting, Madam Speaker, to watch the members reflect on 17 years of missed opportunities.

Madam Speaker, you know, we're making tremendous moves in terms of leaving more money in low-income Manitobans' pockets. We've increased the minimum wage. We've also indexed and

May 17, 2017 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2171 increased the basic personal exemption, taking over 2,000 Manitobans off the payroll. These are moves that are going to keep more money in Mani tobans' pockets. It's the right thing to do. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for St. Johns, on a final supplementary. Ms. Fontaine: Fifteen cents is an insult to Manitoba workers. Minimum wages are poverty wages; the minister even said it so himself. Many Manitobans today lack traditional supports. They're working multiple jobs and often raising children as single parents.

For low-income Manitobans, freezing purchasing power means choosing between working or going to school or fully paying bills or saving money. Will the minister reconsider his 15 cents and provide an increase that will give Manitobans more choice in their daily lives and take them out of poverty? Hon.

Brian Pallister (Premier): Well, the NDP approach, and the workers in Manitoba and people struggling with low incomes understand this, is to put a loonie in their pocket and do a press release and have a big ribbon cutting and make a bunch of announcements, and then jack up the taxes and take the loonie out of the other pocket. They were no further ahead and they weren't getting any further ahead. The administration under the previous govern- ment, Madam Speaker, started taxing people at thousands of dollars earlier than they were having to be taxed in other jurisdictions.

In fact, all the Canadian jurisdictions west of New Brunswick start taxing people later. So we're working hard to clean up the m ess that was left to us, but we have a lot of support from people. Here's a nice letter from somebody: Thank you very much for the increase in the minimum wage today. It makes a different to a large number of working men and women in my community. Keep on surprising me like this. It's a non- ideological issue that people who go to work every day should make enough to enjoy life. Thank you. Long-time poverty– antipoverty advocate, Mr. Sel Burrows. I thank Mr. Burrows.

Madam Speaker: I would ask the Premier, if he was reading from a direct letter, if he would be able to provide the House with a copy of that letter. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Order. Order. I would indicate to the member for Tyndall Park that I have been standing for some time now and that when the Speaker stands the House is to be silent. And it is a reminder to all members. Mr. Ted Marcelino (Tyndall Park): I am sorry, Madam Speaker. I didn't see you stand. Madam Speaker: Thank you. I appreciate that apology. * (14:30) We can now move to the next question, then.

Mine Closures in the North Government Plan for Workforce Mr. Tom Lindsey (Flin Flon): The minister simply has no plan to deal with the growing crisis in the mining sector. Birchtree Mine has announced for closure in 2018–or right now. In 2018, so is the Reed copper mine and the smelter and refinery in Thompson; 777 mine, Hudbay's copper and zinc mine, is set for closure in 2020. The zinc refinery also faces an uncertain future. Thousands of jobs are being lost or are at risk. Where's the minister's plan for the mining sector? Hon.

Cliff Cullen (Minister of Growth, Enterprise and Trade ): I do appreciate the question from the member. It's interesting to see their new -found enthusiasm for the economy. Madam Speaker, we knew there was challenges in northern Manitoba a number of years ago. As a result of that, we were engaging northern Manitobans in discussion about the future of northern Manitoba and we recognized there was going to be challenges coming, and we're seeing these challenges unfold before us, even this week. But we know Manitobans and northern Manitobans are resilient. We're excited about the opportunities in the future.

We're working, certainly, on the education front to make sure there's oppor - tunities for those workers that will be out of place, but there will be opportunities f or northern Manitobans. That's a commitment by this government. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Flin Flon, on a supplementary question.

2172 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17, 2017 Mr. Lindsey: Madam Speaker, it's all talk and no action from this government. The government hires a hundred-thousand-dollar consultant to take trips to belugas; they have no action for people impacted by hits to the resource sector. Can the minister tell us what steps he has taken to help retain –or retrain workers that are being impacted? Mr. Cullen: Well, we had 17 years of all talk and no action when it came to northern Manitoba. Madam Speaker, we know there's challenges in the mining sector, because they weren't addressed over the last 17 years.

We are committed to make sure that we are developing a fram ework for positive investment in northern Manitoba. We are going to make sure we have an effective consultation process. We're going to make sure everyone understands land use in Manitoba, and we're going to make sure that we have a system that works in te rms of permitting and work projects as well. So those are the 'kypes' of things that we will have to get right. If we get that right, investment will come back to Manitoba. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Flin Flon, on a final supplementary. Mr. Lindsey: Jobs are being lost across the North.

The Port of Churchill –closed to grain; rail line cut shipments–the number of shipments. In Thompson, the Birchtree Mine has announced for closure in the fall. Many more jobs are at risk across the North in the mining sector. There really is no plan from this government to deal with this. Will the minister at least convene with leaders in Thompson, and the rest of the North for that matter, and not just business leaders but working people's leaders, union l eaders? Will he sit down and meet with those people and try and at least come up with a plan? Mr.

Cullen: What we're seeing now is the results of 17 years of neglect of northern Manitoba; that's the results that we've seen. This government is going to turn things around in northern Manitoba. We recognize there is issues coming in northern Manitoba, so we did –within the last year, we met individually with the community of Thompson, the workers at Vale, Vale themselves. In the last few months, we actually met with all three of them in the same room to talk about solutions going forward. So we have solutions in the forward–coming forward.

We have a number of different departments working on it and, certainly, we've assisted the City of Thompson in terms of going forward with economic development plans. So there is things happening in northern Manitoba that will put more Manitobans back to work. Rental Housing Improvement Program Funding for Repairs to Affordable Housing Mr. Len Isleifson (Brandon East): We've had one great question today from the member from St. Norbert and I'm going to make it two. Madam Speaker, we're well aware that a home is where families grow and prosper.

However, finding safe and affordable housing is a challenge to a lot of people. This is very particularly true when it comes to low-income families. This is why our government is committed to ensuring that Manitobans have access to comfortable and secure housing options. I would like to ask the Minister of Families if he could please explain how funding programs for rental properties and rooming houses helps landlords make crucial property improvements and upgrades in order to improve these challenges. Hon. Scott Fielding (Minister of Families): What a great question. Thank you very much.

Our government is very much committed to–safe and secure housing is a priority for our government. Under the Rental Housing Improvement Program, private landlords and housing co- ops can apply for upwards of $24,000 per unit for repairs required to meet health and safety standards. Properties in northern Manitoba, which are very important as well, can apply up to $28,000 per unit. The Rooming House Assistance Program is accepting applications to a maximum of $29,000 per unit to make similar types of improvements to properties and shared kitchens and bathrooms.

Our government has committed to over $2.5 million in this budget, where we are doing the projects the NDP had failed in terms of housing. Madam Speaker: The time for oral questions has expired.

May 17, 2017 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2173 PETITIONS Neighbourhoods Alive! Funding Mr. Andrew Swan (Minto): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. The background to this petition is as follows: Since 2001, the Neighbourhoods Alive! program has supported stronger neighbourhoods and com - munities in Manitoba.

(2) Neighbourhoods Alive! uses a community - led development model that partners with neighbour- hood renewal corporations on projects that aim to revitalize communities.

(3) Neighbourhoods Alive! and the neighbour - hood renewal corporations it supports have played a vital and important role in revitalizing many neighbourhoods in Manitoba through community - driven solutions, including: employment and training, education and recreation, safety and crime prevention, and housing and physical improvements.

(4) Neighbourhoods Alive! now serves 13 neighbourhood renewal corporations across Manitoba which have developed expertise in engaging with their local residents and determining the priorities of their communities–[interjection] Madam Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Swan:

(5) The provincial government's previous investments into Neighbourhoods Alive! have been bolstered by community and corporate donations as well as essential support from community volunteers, small businesses and local agencies.

(6) Late in 2016, the minister responsible for the Neighbourhoods Alive! program said new funding for initiatives was paused, and that the future of the Neighbourhoods Alive! program was being reviewed, bringing hundreds of community projects to a standstill.

(7) Neighbourhood renewal corporations and their communities are concerned this funding freeze is the first step in a slow phase -out of the Neighbourhoods Alive! grant program, which would have severe negative impacts on families and communities.

We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: That the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba be urged to support the Neighbourhoods Alive! program and the communities served by neighbourhood renewal corporations by continuing to provide consistent core funding for existing neighbourhood renewal corporations and enhancing the public funding available for specific initiatives. Madam Speaker, this petition is signed by many Manitobans. Thank you. Madam Speaker: In accordance with our rule 133(6), when petitions are read, they are deemed to be received by the House. Taxi Industry Regulation Mr.

Jim Maloway (Elmwood): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. The background of this petition is as follows:

(1) The taxi industry in Winnipeg provides an important service to all Manitobans.

(2) The taxi industry is regulated to ensure that there are both the provision of taxi service and a fair and affordable fare structure. * (14:40)

(3) Regulations have be en put in place that has made Winnipeg a leader in protecting the safety of taxi drivers through the installation of shields and cameras.

(4) The regulated taxi system also has significant measures in place to protect passengers, including a stringent complaint system.

(5) The provincial government has moved to bring in legislation through Bill 30 that will transfer jurisdiction to the City of Winnipeg in order to bring in so-called ride-sharing services like Uber.

(6) There were no consultations with the taxi industry prior to the introduction of this bill.

(7) The introduction of this bill jeopardizes safety, taxi service and also puts consumers at risk, as well as the livelihood of hundreds of Manitobans, many of whom have invested their life savings in the industry.

(8) The proposed legislation also puts the regulated framework at risk and could lead to issues such as been seen in other jurisdictions, including differential pricing, not providing se rvice to some areas of the city and significant risks in terms of taxi driver and passenger safety.

2174 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17, 2017 We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to withdraw its plans to deregulate the taxi industry, including withdrawing Bill 30. And this petitio n is s igned by many, many Manitobans. Kelvin High School Gymnasium and Wellness Centre Mr. Ted Marcelino (Tyndall Park): Madam Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. And the background to this petition is as follows:

(1) Manitobans recognize how important it is to provide young people with quality learning spaces to succeed in school.

(2) Sport, recreation and the spaces to engage in them are critical to the health and welfare of all students.

(3) All forms of educational infrastructure, including gymnasiums and recreation centres in general, represent an incredible value- for-money investment, whereby the return is improved physical and psychological health and wellness.

(4) Kelvin High School is one of the largest high schools in the province, with over 1,200 students.

(5) Kelvin High School spent several years raising almost $1.2 million towards the construction of a new gymnasium and wellness centre.

(6) Some Kelvin students currently have to pay to use outside facilities to obtain their mandatory physical education credit.

(7) The provincial government, in a regressive and short -sighted move, cancelled funding for the Kelvin gym and wellness centre for political reasons, despite the extensive community support, fund- raising and engagement.

(8) It is wasteful and disrespectful to the dedicated efforts of students, staff and the community in general to simply lay their goals aside without consultation. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to recognize the need for excellent recreation facilities in all Manitoba schools, to reverse this regressive cut and to provide Kelvin High School with the funding necessary to complete a new gymnasium and wellness centre. This petition was signed by Bronwyn Chard, Izzy Eskow, and Asma Aden. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Taxi Industry Regulation Ms.

Flor Marcelino (Leader of the Official Opposition): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. The background to this petition is as follows:

(1) The taxi industry in Winnipeg provides an important service to all Manitobans.

(2) The taxi industry is regulated to ensure there are both the provision of taxi serv ice and a fair and affordable fare structure.

(3) Regulations have been put in place that has made Winnipeg a leader in protecting the safety of taxi drivers through the installation of shields and cameras.

(4) The regulated taxi system also has significant measures in place to protect passengers, including a stringent complaint system.

(5) The provincial government has moved to bring in legislation through Bill 30 that will transfer jurisdiction to the City of Winnipeg in order to bring in so-called ride-sharing services like Uber.

(6) There were no consultations with the taxi industry prior to the introduction of this bill.

(7) The introduction of this bill 'prejudizes' safety, taxi service and also puts consumers at risk, as well as the liveliho od of hundreds of Manitobans, many of whom have invested their life savings into the industry.

(8) The proposed legislation also puts the regulated framework at risk and could lead to issues such as what has been seen in other jurisdictions, including di fferential pricing, not providing se rvice to some areas of the city and significant risks in terms of taxi driver and passenger safety. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to withdraw its plans to deregulate the taxi industry, including withdrawing Bill 30.

May 17, 2017 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2175 Signed by many, many Manitobans. Thank you. Madam Speaker: Grievances? ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS Hon. Andrew Micklefield (Government House Leader): This afternoon, we wish to continue with Estimates. Madam Speaker: The House will now resolve itself into Committee of Supply. Mr. Deputy Speaker, please take the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) EXECUTIVE COUNCIL * (14:50) The Acting Ch airperson (Jeff Wharton): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of Committee of Supply will resume – [interjection] Oh, I had it on. Yes. [interjection] Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will resume consideration of Estimates in the Department of Executive Council. The floor is now open for questions. Ms. Flor Marcelino (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Chair, through you, I would like to ask the Premier if he had made use of financial projections developed by Manitoba Hydro in determining the projected

summary deficits for the next several years. Hon. Brian Pallister (Premier): I thank the member for that question. I also, before I –I want to begin by updating her on a request for information she had given to me yesterday, as we have been doing, in respect of the management reduction numbers that she had asked me about. Mr. Dennis Smook, Chairperson, in the Chair But, before I do that, I wanted to say a personal thank you to her for her generous offer and respectful offer to apologize on behalf of her colleague yesterday. That meant a lot to me, meant a lot to my family, and I thank her for that.

On the management update issue, I will say I am only able to give her a partial answer thus far and we're working–and it's a much bigger undertaking to get all the data that I need to give her outside of core government, with all the other sectors like the Crown corporations and so on. It's a–will take a little longer, I think, to get an update from them because it's much more complicated there. But I can–I will give her the information on the core government management streamlining that she had asked about.

First of all, I would say –and, clearly, I'll be taking an opportunity through these Estimates to remind Manitobans, through the Chair, of the need for us to pursue a road to recovery, a responsible road to recovery and sustainabil ity. We have a serious fiscal problem in our province. We have six other provinces, I believe, in this fiscal year that have all achieved balanced budgets. We have three that have had major challenges with crude oil prices declining that are –all three prov inces have normally been in surplus. It's a matter of normal achievement for them.

But this year, temporarily, because of the – principally because of the crude oil price decline, combined, I'd say, in Alberta, with the reality of a massive historic disaster with the Fort McMurray fires that are temporarily in deficit. That leaves one other province that is not in balance and, really, it doesn't have the same 'ratle' legitimate revenue challenges that the three who are in deficit do. Rather, we inherited a go vernment, a situation with the previous government demonstrating they had a spending problem.

So, to get that spending under control, there are a number of efficiencies that have to be found to protect our services and to protect those front -line services people value. We're committed to doing that after a decade of debt in which –you know, a decade in which we more than doubled our provincial debt under the previous administration.

And so we're also, at the same time, committed to finding the efficiencies within our government operations that can assure that those services are available and make sure that we do whatever we can to not have an adverse effect on program delivery, right, that programs that people need and care about must be there for them. So what we did is, immediately following the election, we undertook a complete reorganization of all government departments, which results in a reduction in the size of Cabinet, from 18 members to 12. Now, of course, this excludes the previous premier and m yself from that number. So it was

2176 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17, 2017 19 to 13, if you include the premiers; 18 to 12, if you don't. The next step, then, was to review the senior management complement, and that's what the member is asking me about, specifically, but, I think, that

preamble is important to understand the background that led to these decisions. The–and I see I'm running out of time, but I'll just say, in this context, what we're talking about in senior management is your deputy ministers, assistant deputy ministers, executive directors, directors and equivalents to that level of –so, when you–when members look at the organizational charts, for example, in each of the departments, they'll see those positions generally designated by category. I expect I'm going to go over my ti me, so I'll stop my comments there.

But I do have some additional detail and numbers that the member had asked about, as well, for her edification. Ms. Marcelino: Thank the Premier (Mr. Pallister) for his response. Through you, Mr. Chair, I'd like to as k the Premier: The government projects $74 million in net income from Manitoba Hydro, for 2017- 2018. I'd like to ask if, in the Premier's view, this is an accurate figure. Mr. Pallister: We're getting there with an answer to that, and I'll just conclude b y giving the numbers I had committed to give the member earlier.

So, when we're talking about the streamlining of senior administrative structures–in other words, the trimming at the top, to put it in sort of parochial language, the trimming at the top i s what, when we consulted in the prebudget exercise –and we did a lot of outreach, and we got a lot of input from our front-line workers, whether within core or throughout government, on this, and one of the most consistent observations was, it's just too thick up in the top of our organization.

There's just –it's just grown so much and– over the years, and I expect members have heard that from their own front -line workers when they're talking to them. A lot of growth up there; not so much growth on the front. So we went in and looked at that and realized that we had, frankly, the biggest civil service in Canada with the most –among the most top heavy in virtually every part of government. Over the last number of years, in particular, last six or seven years, in particular, the new positions and the hiring of additional people on the top of the organization really expanded.

So we announced, on October 6th of last year, that we would be looking to trim senior management positions, as I described earlier, throughout core government; 112 management positions was our target, and our goal is to complete that by the end of this calendar year, so December 31st of 2017. Now, what–how will that happen? Well, each of the departments was asked to review their own organi - zation internally; take a look inside their organization, with that aim of streaming their organizational design and focusing on protecting the front-line services, and by–reducing the management layers up above.

So Budget 2017 includes a reduction of ove r 50 management positions –senior management positions. The salary and benefit cost savings of that would be approximately $7 million. * (15:00) I would also mention that some of these people are not fired; they're retiring, and so they're simply leaving that position. But we are not planning to rehire one or two or three people to take over for them. So we are looking to streamline that way, as well, because a lot of our senior people are older than the member for Flin Flon (Mr. Lindsey) even. They're–you know, they're–[interjection] Yes.

So I'd also mentioned–and, I think, it's important to understand you have to be fair to your workers, and regardless of whether management or front line, you know, be fair. And severance is there also for those who are leaving. And I should mention that that means that, in the first year after these initiatives happen, you might not see a significant reduction in the cost to the taxpayer, because you're continuing to pay severance under the rules that are there for severance. That compensation, though, I should point out to all members, for government employees, is disclosed in volume 2 of the Public Accounts.

So you can see it; it's right there, and Manitobans who have an interest in this stuff can actually go and rea d The Public Sector Compensation Disclosure Act docu- ments, and they're there for them to have a look at, if they'd like. For individuals that have been laid off, and there are some from senior management positions, the conditions of employment regulation provides for severance. And the severance is based on their length of service. The government will not be providing

May 17, 2017 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2177 personal information, because, naturally, that's protected for the individual person. So there's a bit of an overview. Now, the member had asked me also, though, about the question of reporting on the –Manitoba Hydro, specifically. Manitoba Hydro is reporting– and numbers is –are included in along with all government business entities. So that's included in the projections of

summary budget forecast, so it's not just core; we say it's

summary, which includes all Crown corporations as well. So this would mean any government business enterprises would be included in that calculation as well. It's not just core government; it's a lso Crown corporations like Manitoba Hydro. Ms. Marcelino: Through you, Mr. Chair, I'd like to ask the Premier (Mr. Pallister): Does he think a 7.9 increase in electricity rates for Manitoba Hydro is appropriate? Mr. Pallister: I'll just gather up some information, so I can give the member a little bit more detail on that.

Let me just, though, while we're just waiting for that to come, say it's not just Manitoba Hydro projections. And these projections are arrived at through, obviously, the experts at Manitoba Hydro in discussion with Finance –senior Finance officials, and then they work together through the projections and determine what they think will be the likely –you know, this is nature of a budget -making exercise, right–what will be the likely number at the end of the year.

It should be also understood, though, there are other factors, and I'll get into those in a minute, in respect of the debt of Manitoba Hydro–the debt undertakings of Manitoba Hydro, that play very much into the longer term concer ns that all Manitobans, I think, who care about Manitoba Hydro share in terms of the amount of debt that is accelerating because of the bipole, Keeyask – well, some call it a boondoggle and–but that's the proposed levy that Manitoba Hydro is talking about imposing on Manitobans due to the decision by the previous administration to build–for American export, to build Keeyask and to go ahead with the construction of the Keeyask project without proper consultation, without proper deliberation and without proper research–was the decision of the previous administration–will go down as one of the worst decisions in Manitoba History, if not the worst.

The bipole line, of course, has been well discussed, and I expect I'll have a chance to discuss it further as we g o on in the Estimates process today and later. As far as other government business enterprises, I would mention that the Deposit Guarantee Corporation is another one; Manitoba Liquor & Lotteries Corporation, as well; Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation and Workers Compensation Board; and those are all considered government business enterprises. Their projected performance plays into the

summary budget forecast. So each of those entities will have–work through with their management and researched what they project will be the performance of their entities in the coming year. They will then have discussion with senior Finance officials. They will go through those numbers with a fine -tooth comb. They will ascertain what is an accurate projection to enter i nto the books of our Province, and then we'll shoot for that.

One thing I'm particularly proud of our – principally, of our senior civil service, but also of our new Cabinet is that in the compilation of our projections on our first budget, which was done very quickly, as the member knows, after the last election. You know, the election was held in April of 2016; first budget was presented in a matter of weeks, and so there was a lot of hard work that went into that and into the projections. And those requi rements were met ably by our senior management and by our ministers.

And it appears –and we'll know when the final Public Accounts are issued, probably September, first week of September, we'll know –but it looks like, based on the third-quarter numbers, that we're going to be very close. In fact, the closest for a long, long time in terms of the actual result that we'll achieve versus what was projected. This is an important accomplishment and one that the previous administration was unable to do. Over many, many years, they consistently saw their deficits be larger than they had predicted.

And what happens, as a consequence of that, is when you– when that happens, people lose faith in the process. They lose faith in the sincerity of the numbers because they begin to doubt the accuracy of the numbers. And also moneylenders, you know, these bond-rating agencies that the member for, I think it's Fort Garry -Riverview says are part of a neo -liberal plot or something, I think he describes it. But those moneylenders actually like what most of us like. They like people or governments represented by people to keep their word, and when that word is

2178 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17, 2017 broken and trust is broken–when trust is broken, they begin to fear that the commitments that are stated will not be met. So, in restoring that trust, it's very important for us that we do our best to achieve the projections as closely as possible that we budget for, so we put a meticulous amount of work, and for this I give a lot of credit to our, as I said earlier, our se nior civil servants.

And I'll give a little more detail to the member in my next opportunity on the actual numbers that we – versus what was projected under the previous administration and our own government. Ms. Marcelino: I didn't –I'll repeat my questio n. I didn't hear an answer from the Premier (Mr. Pallister) along the line of questioning. Does the Premier think the Hydro's application to PUB of a 7.9 increase in rate appropriate? Or is it too high? * (15:10) Mr.

Pallister: Well, I would say, first of all, we need to go back a little bit and understand that the previous administration led Manitobans to believe that the actual cost of the bipole line would be zero, and they –in the election of 2011, they actually put out literature that told Manitobans that they wouldn't have to pay a single cent. They said the bipole line will not cost taxpayers a single cent. Now, of course, we're finding out that that was a whopper, and the actual bipole line will cost a considerable amount more than that. So, after the election, the member for St. Boniface (Mr.

Selinger), who was the leader of that political party that preceded our own in government, claimed that the bipole line would cost $1.2 billion; $1.2 billion, he said. And I'm looking for the actual cost now; I think $4.9 billion is what we're getting now as the actual cost. So, again, the member is asking: Is Hydro right in asking for a big rate increase? She could also ask: Was the previous administration right in saying that bipole would cost not a cent? T he cost has to be borne by the owners of Manitoba Hydro. The owners of Manitoba Hydro are Manitobans.

Manitoba Hydro is trying to pay for the things the previous government committed them to building; they committed them to building the bipole line. The bipole line costs around $5 billion; the previous administration said it wouldn't cost anything. Then they changed and said it'd be $1 billion; now it's five times that much. So I don't think that it would be surprising that Manitoba Hydro senior managers and the board would be trying to raise money to pay for something that has actually cost close to $5 billion. Somebody's got to pay for it.

Manitobans own Manitoba Hydro, and, although they didn't get a lot of say in the previous government's decision to move ahead with this ill - advised project–fact they were largely ignored in that process. And, though the previous government decided to ignore the experts –both present and retired, at Manitoba Hydro –when they decided to build the route in such a manner that the costs escalated by billions of dollars more, thousands of millions of dollars more than was necessary.

Now you can understand why some would be puzzled that there'd be questions emanating from the very same political organization that made all these costly decisions as to why the rates should go up. If you're going to spend five or six or seven billion dollars building stuff, then you're going to expect somebody's got to pay for it, and Manitoba Hydro is, as a result of this overreach by the previous administration, this incredible, unprecedented build– build-up, not for Manitobans but for export, of Manitoba Hydro, there's a cost associated with it.

The cost associated with it will be borne by the people of Manitoba, because we are the owners of Manitoba Hydro. And so, with respect to the member's question, I think it's important to understand that what we understand–that the misrepresentation of the real costs of the bipole line and the Keeyask project, which we just learned is, I think, $2 billion over its last projection and getting up in the area of – [interjection] Yes, we'll get the detail, but, again, thousands of millions of dollars over and above what was projected on cost. It makes –it creates a tremendous, giant debt hole at Manitoba Hydro.

And so the management at Manitoba Hydro is concerned about that and wants to see it addressed. I'll get into the process of how that works with the Public Utilities Board in a minute, but I just wanted to share with the member the

summary projections of the previous administration were consistently off. For example, in '15 -16, they posted a budget that said, year before the election, that they would end up $422 million in the red, with a deficit of $400 million; ended up being close to $900 million. So they're off by about half a billion or $500 million. That's off by quite a bit, Madam

May 17, 2017 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2179 Speaker. And that's why the moneylenders knocked our credit rating for a loop and cost us tens of millions of dollars that we can't put into things like better services for health care and education. Ms. Marcelino: Seems like the Premier (Mr. Pallister) is alluding that that 7.9 increase in hydro rate is appropriate, from the reasoning that he had given. Anyway, I'd like to ask the Premier, through you, Mr. Chair: In his view, what is the acceptable debt-to-equity ratio for Manitoba Hydro? Mr.

Pallister: I wouldn't want the member to, you know, misrepresent what I just said and falsely parody it in the wrong way. I think that's inappropriate. I did not say that it was acceptable because I don't think that the way the previous government management at Manit oba Hydro was acceptable at all. And so I think what's happened here is we see a rate application that's a consequence of unacceptable behaviour, unacceptable behaviour not by Manitoba Hydro, but by the political masters who instructed them to build the bi pole line, for example, down halfway across –well, all the way across the province, frankly.

I'll share with the member that it was clear there was political influence brought to bear on Manitoba Hydro by the previous administration. I mean, there's actually here a copy of a letter that came, that was sent to the chair of the Manitoba Hydro- Electric Board that directs the Manitoba Hydro board to pursue only the west route for the bipole line. Now this: political influence of the worst kind. And the result is that the costs are $1 billion, $2 billion higher than would have been the case if the board had not been so directed and Manitoba Hydro's senior management had been listened to.

So you have here a direction to not build where any experts I've talked to, present or past at Manitoba Hydro, said the preferred route should have been–should have been – on the east side of the –of Lake Winnipeg. Instead, the previous administration instructed in this letter – this is a letter written by the minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro. The minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro was the member –present member for St. Boniface (Mr. Selinger)–and at the time was also the minister of Finance.

So it says here, and I'll just quote from the letter: The Manitoba government doe s not regard an east - side bipole route as being consistent with our commitments and initiatives and we'd encourage the move ahead with required consultations and planning for an alternative bipole route. So they instructed the Hydro board not to build it w here the Hydro board and Hydro senior executives recommended it be built.

Now, that's left Manitoba Hydro with a massive, thousands of millions of dollars of additional debt because they had to build it–well, you know, 600 kilometres longer that –through a lot of pristine country, didn't help the environment at all, through tornado alley, some question about the reliability and delivery confidence people have about that route –all those instructions political, not listening to the senior people at Manitoba Hydro. So, in addition to that, of course, there's the Keeyask dam project. Here's an

article from a Winnipeg paper, March of this year, says the cost of Manitoba Hydro's Keeyask dam project is ballooning by billions and its in -service date will be pushed back nearly two more years: so over budget and late. The contentious project is expected now to cost $8.7 billion, up from $6.5 billion projected in budget Estimates in 2014. So, again, previous administration instructed that this be built, just as they did the bipole west line, causing billions of dollars of expense to be incurred at Manitoba Hydro, now ask questions about rates going up.

Well, I'm going to ask for a copy of the Philippe Dunsky testimony and report. The previous govern- ment hired an expe rt, international expert on Hydro and there was a report filed in respect of these projects, like the Keeyask project which they hid from view, didn't allow it to go to the media. It was blacked out as –I think they said it was advice to Cabinet or something, and they didn't allow people to see it. * (15:20) But now we've got it and I'll read from it so the member knows that this –these decisions were made. And I'm not blaming her personally. I am not.

I don't know that she was given this information from M r. Dunsky. If she had it, I expect that she would have done her best to stop this project from going ahead. But I don't believe that she had it. But I'm going to read it to her in the record now, so she has a chance to hear this, because it should make her very concerned. And she'll understand why Hydro rates are–the application for Hydro rate increases is happening. Ms. Marcelino: I would like to ask the Premier for a copy of the letter she read –or part of it that she read, signed by the then-minister of Finance.

2180 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17, 2017 To my knowledge–that was before my time, but, to my knowledge, the decision to build on the west side was borne out of consultation with a t least 10 First Nations organizations. And, also, in hindsight, now that it's being built on the west side and now that we're selling power to the west of us, it seems to be a well –an–a decision well made–but would like to –for–just for my personal purpose, because I'm–I know very little. That was before my time; by the time I got elected, that decision was well on its way. But I'd like to see the genesis of that decision.

But I'd like to ask the Premier (Mr. Pallister): Is it more–and I haven't–by the way, I haven't received a response to my earlier query if the Premier believes the debt-to-equity ratio is –for Manitoba Hydro is an acceptable one. Mr. Pallister: Well, happy to–I'm just going to get a copy of the letter the member had asked about and make sure she has that. And I know –I understand– what year was the member first elected? An Honourable Member: Mr. Chair, '07. Mr. Pallister: –'07, and this was dated [interjection] Yes, September of '07. So that's when it was sent. But I'll get her a copy of the letter.

On the issue of consultation, she should know, though, on the indigenous consultation piece that, in fact, a lot of the bands –and I can't read off the list; I don't have it with me –but a lot of the bands worked with a gentleman named Elijah H arper that she would have heard of. And Elijah Harper and these bands were very, very, very concerned about the loss of potential jobs, potential opportunities for economic growth in that region on the east side of the lake. And, in fact, there were –as is true in most communities, there were mixed opinions on the issue.

But my point –it should not be left unsaid that there was a great deal of support for an east -side route among the indigenous bands in that area and among their community members, because there was. Certainly, Mr. Harper, a well -known Manitoban–I think one we're all proud of and a very, very respected person, and he was very, very supportive of an east -side route as were many of the First Nations communities on that side.

As far as the arg ument that we might sell to Saskatchewan, so it's good that we already built a route halfway around the province, the member will have to consult–and I won't get into the detail of this except to say she'll have to consult with Manitoba Hydro experts on this. There's much–it's much more complicated than that. There are tremendous additional costs that will have to be incurred in transporting, in transforming power in–to its useable form for transit to our markets elsewhere. Those costs will be duplicated, in many respects, unnecessarily, replicating additional investments already made.

Senior officials at Hydro have told me that there's–frankly, it was just a poor decision to put it on the west side, and nothing can undo it at this point. We endeavoured, w hen we came into government, to inquire immediately as to whether there was any possible way to pull the plug on this west-side thing and do as the experts had asked. The previous administration accelerated the process of construction, of ordering material s, of route readiness and, in many other respects, made sure that it was a fait accompli , as they say in French–that it was

an act that could not be undone. On the cost of the Keeyask dam –and I should mention that the Keeyask dam itself was a project that should have gone through a respectful process – Public Utilities Board –similar to what the rate application will go through, a Public Utilities Board process, so that the public can be protected, their interests can be served. This is what should have happened with the actual project Keeyask itself. It is not what happened, and now the cost of that project is ballooning by thousands of millions of dollars. It's going to be late when it is done.

It is absolutely a disaster in the making, and, unfortunately, this project is also so far gone and so far along that it can't be stopped. In fact, what the members of the Clean Environment Commission said was that –and the Public Utilities Board –both said that it would be ill-advised to do it but that it was –there'd been so many hundreds of millions of dollars already put into it that it was too late to change it. So, in other words, the previous administration started the construction without approvals.

They moved ahead with investments in the hundreds of millions of dollars without going through the proper processes. And then, when it got to the process of looking at this project, it was done already, too far gone to back up. So, a disappointment, I think, also for workers at Manitoba Hydro I've spoken with who are very, very disappointed in this and recognize that it is a –you know, is a decision that hurts the utility itself and

May 17, 2017 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2181 hurts the owners of the utility: Manitobans. So these are not good decisions. On the equity issue the member has raised, I can only tell her that–what the CEO of Manitoba Hydro says: equity levels at Hydro are very low. They'll continue to deteriorate in coming years. We are out of step, he says, with other Crown utilities across the country. Our equity levels are far out of step. Our debt levels are far out of step. Manitoba Hydro's debt now, of course, is a very large part of the Province's debt load as well. And I'll go on–additional opportunity. Ms.

Marcelino: A significant portion of Hydro's income is derived from exports sold to Canadian customers, sold to American customers on the spot market and fixed-rate long-term contracts, and based on these export sales, it was the view of what I've heard that these infrastructure projects are needed to fulfill these contracts as well as to pr eserve the 'integ'–for the bipole to preserve the integrity of the line. Should there be unexpected accidents, there will be energy or a source of energy for the province. But anyway, that's what we learned. But can the Premier (Mr.

Pallister) indicate h ow many fixed -rate contracts with Canadian or American customers has Hydro signed this past year? Mr. Pallister: I'll undertake to get that information. It'll take some time, but I'll get that. I would also continue, though, with the –Kelvin Shepherd's comments. These were –comments were made last fall concerning Manitoba Hydro debt. And he commented that Manitoba Hydro debt is a very large part of the Province's overall debt load.

In fact, it's approaching about 50 per cent of the provincial debt. * (15:30) Hydro's ability to be considered self-supporting– he says, our ability to service our own debt could potentially be at risk with such low equity levels. Of course, there is a concern that has t he potential to impact the Province's credit rating overall as well. He goes on to say: I want to point out, this did not happen overnight and is a trend that's been in place for many years.

The combination of 10 years of low rate increases, coupled with i ncreased borrowing to support major projects and infrastructure has led to the current situation. The comparison in terms of debt to equity with other hydro utilities across the country shows that with, I think, one exception, Manitoba Hydro is in the worst position of a debt to equity in the country. What is also of concern, of course, is that there will be–it will take years before the projects that are now being built will be in a position to export power if there is a market.

And it will also, accor ding to the expert testimony of many at the Public Utilities Board when this project was coming in for examination–the Keeyask Dam I'm talking about not–the Bipole line never went to the Public Utilities Board–experts said there's no rate of return. There 's no positive rate of return for potentially, some of them said, for 35 years, I think. The other concern that seemed to be ignored by the political masters that pushed these projects forward was the reality of a declining energy price.

I mean, the alternatives to using hydro throughout the United States, and, in particular in our market – traditional market in the central corridor of Bakken produced, low priced product that can produce energy for a fraction of what we would like to get when we sell our hy dro; that's a reality that's emerged and some say will remain a reality in terms of alternative pricing pressure downward for decades and decades to come. So, clearly, this wasn't thought through by those who pushed this at the political level.

Perhaps t hey had a plan that was written before Bakken reserves were discovered and they wanted to stick to it, but sometimes–well, as Napoleon said, fixed positions are man's monument to stupidity, and, when you hold onto a position after all the facts change and the realities are different, and you should change your mind, you should change your mind. I'm reminded of a friend of mine who insists whenever we drive that he knows the way and never asks anyone else for directions, even when he's lost. The fact is th ere were experts who were available who could have assisted.

Seeking the advice of experts can be a very helpful thing. So I – you know, I know that the previous administration disrespected the advice of experts at Manitoba Hydro in pushing this bipole west route–bipole waste line, I call it–but they also, then, they did the right thing and went to Mr. Philippe Dunsky and asked him for advice, and then when he came back and gave them a completed report November 1st, 2014–it was the first phase of his mandate to assist the government. He provided a recommended model. He provided advice

2182 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17, 2017 to them, but they covered up the report, and they didn't act on the advice, for some reason. So, again, kind of like my pal who remains lost longer than he should, if he would just simply ask for some help and maybe follow it. Mr. Chairperson: Before I recognize the honourable–did you have something ready to table here? Mr. Pallister: No. Ms. Marcelino: I would like to ask the Premier (Mr. Pallister), through you, Mr. Chair: How does –or what role does the Premier see himself as having in promoting the sale of Manitoba Hydro products to our neighbours?

Does the Premier think that water should simply fall over the dam or ought to be sold on the spot market when buyers are available, or does the Premier believe that selling exports to subsidize the infrastructure, in the will of Manitoba Hydro, is an appropriate strategy to keep rates low? Mr. Pallister: Well, I made a lot of my living over the years, when I wasn't honoured to be elected as a servant of the public, in the private sector, and I understand the importance of good marketing. I understand the importance of, first of all, having a good product, and we have a good, clean product in hydro.

I also understand the challenges of getting into new markets and finding those markets, and I know that there are many people at Manitoba Hydro who understand those challenges, as well, are working very di ligently to find those markets for product. And so I suppose that saying that the principal difference between our government and the previous one is that we don't propose to politicize and direct through political endeavours the decision- making powers of experts in our utilities. That is a critical– has been a critical mistake for Manitoba Hydro that we will be paying for for generations to come.

That political manipulation of Manitoba Hydro will be written about in history books in the future as a massive multi-multi-billion dollar error in judgment. So we don't presume to follow that example –quite the contrary, tremendous respect for the leadership and the expertise within Manitoba Hydro and our other Crown corporations.

There are –there's a need for a st rong co- operative working relationship between Crown corporations and the government of the day, but, again, sometimes politics can–has a nasty way of producing waste, and this is a prime example of that in terms of Manitoba Hydro decisions that were influenced by politics rather than by common sense or co-operative strategies.

The lack of consultation with Manitobans, the disrespect for the role of the Public Utilities Board, of the Clean Environment Commission was evident throughout these–this series of mistaken approaches is now, as they say, the chickens have come home to roost, and Manitoba Hydro has no choice but to move, they say, on trying to reinforce their position.

We should also understand Manitoba Hydro, besides the massive investments that are required now under the –because of the previous overreach in Americanization strategies of the NDP government, there's also been neglect in–evidenced by the number of repairs that have to be pursued. And so Hydro needs additional money and it gets its m oney from ratepayers, and it needs additional money for a massive amount of repairs. It's catching up to years of neglect on– not just on–I don't know the technical terms.

The member –I can't share with the member, but the towers need to be replaced and some of them are past their expected dates of use. There's a lot of maintenance issues that the Hydro board and senior staff have shared with me that needs to be done and undertaken and they need money to do these things, to do these repairs. We want our servi ces to be reliable. It's–here's the Manitoba Hydro chair, says, we want to make people understand this is a big problem, not a small problem. We take that position not only from Manitoba Hydro's perspective, but from the perspective of the people of Mani toba.

Hydro is a ticking time bomb. We have absolutely no margin for error, no cushion. This is a serious, significant problem and Hydro board members, past and present, know that the decisions that were made for them rather than by them have resulted in t his significant and dangerous situation that we now have to face.

And so Philippe Dunsky, who was com - missioned by the previous administration, made a number of recommendations in terms of, for example, pursuing an arm's -length demand -side management agency–in other words, an agency that could help Manitobans to get a lower hydro bill by conserving the use of hydro. Previously, the government had committed to that position. In fact, that was position 1 of their green plan. Position 1 was the creation of a demand-side management agency. But they didn't proceed to pursue position 1 in their green plan. So because they didn't, we are

May 17, 2017 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2183 now doing that. We're doing what they said they'd do and we're doing it on the basis of the recom - mendations of an expert advis er that they hired who reported on November 1st of 2014. * (15:40) Ms. Marcelino: There has been much discussion and controversy regarding the creation of Efficiency Manitoba. I was here partly for the committee last week on Bill 19 which is creating this Efficiency Manitoba, a new corporation–or a new Crown.

Many critics have claimed that this move will simply lead to another layer of bureaucracy, and one very ardent, passionate critic is from the Conservative side, even. How would the Premier respond to this concern? Mr. Pallister: I'd say the member's the official –now official opposition can't have it both ways. They – there's casting aspersions at our efforts to reduce the levels of senior management within government on the one hand and I think that's not justified, but nonetheless they have the right to do that.

But, on the other hand, they're asking whether, I believe, that we would want to create a duplicate bureaucracy in another arm's length–in an arm's length demand -side management agency. Can't have it both ways. You're cutting too much or we're not cutting enough. I don't know. Can't be doing–can't be wrong all the time. But maybe –maybe–the previous government was because in December of 2015, they said that they were going to pursue several key initiatives. This is– remember, December of 2015; it isn't that long ago.

They said Manitoba introduces comprehensive plan to address climate change and create green jobs. And they said, as their first bullet, Manitoba will take immediate action to create a new demand -side management agency. That's what the NDP com - mitment was. It's not that long ago, really, I mean, it's a year and a half ago. So the position of the NDP when they were in government was they were going to do what we're doing now, and now they're opposed to it. That's not a great principled position to be on, but that's the position they've adopted. Now, what's the purpose of a demand- side management agency?

Well, according to the previous government, it was to establish energy savings targ ets, work to lower utility bills and support adoption of green heating alternatives to fossil fuels, such as geothermal technology. Well, that's exactly what we're doing with the efficiency legislation, but the member's now opposed. So there's no consis tency here. The previous administration said it would do these things, which we are now doing. It supported them when it was in government and didn't do them. We're now doing them.

They were for it; before, they were against it: for it when they were in g overnment; against it now that they're in opposition. Either way, they shouldn't have hidden that Dunsky report because it actually recommended these things and would've given them the powerful support for actually implementing these things. But there's a theme here, a consistent theme. Whether it's Dunsky or Peachey or any number of other advisory studies that were done, the members do the studies, but they don't take the action that is recommended by the studies.

Now, at no time, I would argue, in Manitoba history, has it been more important than now, for us to help Manitobans lower their hydro bills. We're on the verge of increases. We knew we were on the verge of increases before Keeyask construction began, but now with this Americanization strategy in place, Manitobans are going to have higher hydro bills, and we owe it to Manitobans to find an efficient, effective way, as other jurisdictions have done, to help them lower those hydro bills.

Whether they're small farmers in the Interlake or in the Dauphin area, or whether they're people living on a single income in the inner city, they are going to need help with lowering their hydro bills. That's what this demand-side management agency, in part, is to do, and it's an exciting initiative, and I, you know, I'm really excited, and I would hope the members would change their position and go back to supporting what they supported when they were in government.

If they could do that, we could be unanimous in going ahead and finding an agency and developing an agency together that would really do the job, you know, for Manitobans. We'll do it anyway, but I just invite the members of the opposition to be part of it because I think, then, they could share in the joy that come s from knowing that they're keeping more money on the kitchen tables of Manitobans by helping them lower their hydro bills. Ms. Marcelino: I would like to–I'm not very good at retaining information that I've just read or have read a week ago.

But the very criticism espoused by the member of the government was about a very controversial provision of the bill in Efficiency Manitoba that will put members of the Cabinet to decide on specific issues. I don't have a copy of the bill, but we'd like–at another time, I'll get it. But that

2184 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 17, 2017 was the main thesis of the member from the Conservative government, and we– Mr. Chairperson: I'd like to interrupt the honourable interim Leader of the Official Opposition (Ms. Marcelino). I would like to remind all honour - able members of our rule 42, which states: no member shall revive a debate already concluded during the session or anticipate a matter appointed for consideration which notice has been given.

Bill 19 is currently considered in committee and I would suggest that it'd be more appropriate for the member to comment on the bill at the committee considering the bill. I–while I understand there is a connection between the bill and Estimates in consideration, I would ask all members to focus their comments on the matter currently before the committee. An Honourable Member: Just, if I could, put a question for clarification? Mr. Chairperson: The honourable First Minister. Mr.

Pallister: Just for clarification, because I had agreed earlier and I enjoy the discussion wi th the members, and I had said I'd allow questions of great latitude. So I don't object to the line of questioning personally, and I encourage members to ask questions. This is an important topic and I don't think we're really–we're not really debating the bill here. My colleagues, I think, would agree: we're not really debating the bill. Certain aspects of the bill are important, though, to discuss.

So I'm–if that's possible, I would not try to break to the rules, but I want to consent to let the member ask questions on this issue as she wishes. Mr. Wab Kinew (Fort Rouge): Yes, I'm inclined to agree with the First Minister. Again, we're not debating any of the clauses in the proposed piece of legislation. Rather, we're talking about–in a global sense–how this prospective Crown agenc

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	41-2-53
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	41st 2nd hansardpdf 53.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	00e1f514c7baa1161a25ecd98b3c14cd8d5ec2ca

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