~ ,_ 0 ~ .. ro m ,.., ~ ~ N ~ ~ 0 ~ 0 ~ ~ ~ ~ D M M w 0 ~ ~ H w ~ ~ ~ u ~ E-• ~ ~ N ~ ~ n. F: G ~ D H ~ H N ~ v N n ~ ~ u ~ ~ H H ~ w ~ 0 < ~ D z m 0 D N ~ ~ 0 ~ H ~ rr, 0 0 0 ~ Clo 0 ~ ~ ~ ~ f•o

Jecernber 12 ,1980 <:ape ~:o . 28'3? ,lF{ -1 ~~e ac~se r-et a~ 10 :00 a .~. :.:r. S;?.:aker :.:~ che C~air . ~·!R . SPE.'l.iG"R IS imms) Orcer,!)lease ! t-J i~;, res?e.cc :;c -::te ?o:..nc o: crc~r raised yes ce.reay by che he:~ . c3e ~eecer c: -:~e Op?o ::.ici on arising ou.: o: re:narks ;:~.ace by :he hen. :he :·:in.:.a'.:coz- ·~f ~lines and 2nergy (:1r.

Ba!:ry) , I ~ave had a -::hance not.,r >:O revietv -:he remarks i.n Ea1 ;a:::-d a:1c I quote ~~ ::e.-narks, ''':'he Le.ace::- c:: t.'le Opposit ion l.S 1:::yi:1q ces?era-:e:y ~o :~:~~ ~~ issue, any iss ue and h~ has b~en sirce he ~.;as alectec as leader, to ?rovoke nischie: ar.C. disorc~r in :.abracicr ar.d other- ?arts o~ the ?:::-c,'i::ce. '' 3eauche:me. :i:th ~dition, ?age 104, paragrarh 31? (3l sa ys i:~ oarc.

"A ;ne ,m~er ~-1:!.:1 net. ~e ;:e:-11i:.~eC ~o !::tpt:~e unwcr~!":y ::-tot.i7es t:O ~~y oc.her -ne:n.ber." ! there=ore ::~le that i~ th1.s ca se there is a valid po lnt o: ord~r an6 r-eques~ ~,e hon . :A.i:1ister c: ~!ines and E'~e.t· ·=7 f~r. aarrY ) -:o ,.,,:.t !'"lCrS.\i ~;,.ese ~emarks . '\:R .3A?aY: 'Lq, S?E'A.K2R : .,,ithdrat-~1 has been made . ~r. 5peake=, o~ cou:$e .

I ~r.ders~and :hat the Also today. on b~half of hor. . l!'.eohers . in che galleries c.re approx.L-.. atel y eiohceen high sc~ool students :rem P~ince Clai~e. ~u~bec,a cccM?anied bv thei:- teacher, ~ . ~on Deschamps . ':C:ey are on an exchange visi t to the cicy ~ith ~he s~udents of 3oo~h Mamo::ial Righ School ~nd ei qh teen high school studen~ :rom Socth are also i~ the galleries ~i~1 ~heir :rie~cs :rom Ou ebec and ~hey a:-e accom~an:es oy t~eir teacher.~::. "!elvin ::>=eve:: . 3ien•·er.~.:e . :·ielcome . \!e hope :•'"'u e:1:cy ·.rc·u.:: '!lSi;: . SOt-1£ nON . .'·1EM~FR5 : Hear, ~e3~! ?7 ;:_.v. •

December 12, l ?80 ~R.S~EAKER (S~mrns): Fisheries. 501)-!E HON .MEMBERS : liR. MORGAN: Tape No. 2884 AH-2 STATEMENTS BY ~INISTERS The hon. Minister of Hear, hear! t"'r. Speaker, in recent months,the officials of the provincial Deparrnent of Fisheries on behal:: of the Nel'lfoundland Government have been discussing with the federal people, the federal officials, o~r counterparts, and the federal minister , the new licensing system presently being imposed on our fishermen. Today I want to outline to the House of Assembly the provincial government's feeliEqs in connection with this subject.

The ?rovince has ~learly stated its position on the constitutional jurisdiction with regards to shared jurisdiction over the fisheries in two )~ecer.t documents. One , of course, was Towards The Twenty-First Century Together , that document which is now being highly circulated 3round the Province , and the second one was The Approach ~o The Man.aqerr.ent Of The Gulf Groundfish Stocks The government recently appointed a Royal Commission into the fishing industxy, and one of the principle terms of reference of this major study is to make recommendations on the licensing system for fishermen. Therefore, Mr.

Speaker, in view of the Royal Commission's mandate,and because of the unresolved constitutional issue with regards to shared jurisdiction over the fisheries, the Province would now prefer that the federal govern~ent delay implementation 770°

December 12, 1980 Tape 2885 EC - 1 MR. MORGAN: of the new fisheries licencing policy L ecause, .'-lr. Speaker, the Province has some very serious reservations with the substance of various aspects of the new proposed federal licencing system and policy. For example, the concept of further limi:ed entry licencing and the means by which the new licencing system will be ad:uinistered, it is very unclear from federal documents which are now available to fishermen around the Province in a brochure entitled Full-time ' ~-time what the objectives are c:: the new licencing policy.

The objectives of the new licencing policy are not expanded upon in any great detail and in my view are far too general. This is particularly evident in their definition of a ful~-time fisherman. For example, their definition being used in the present system is as follows. The tenn of a full-tirre fishernan is an.y :;:erson wr.o fishes consistently during a normal fishing season. ~Jo~i, this is open to wide

interpretation. 8oes 'consistently' mean one who fishes throughout the whole season and for all species,or does it mean a fisherman who merely has to fish for certain species in the season? In addition, that brochure now being sent to all fishermen around the Province states that a full-time fisherman cannot have employment during the fishing season in his respective area except for self- employment on a limited basis. No reference whatsoever is given to the matter regarding an income received by a fisherman other than earned income, for ex~~ple, such as social assistance, pensions or any income fro~ investments.

The federal authorities state in order for fishermen to maintain thei~ full-~ime status, t~ey must continue to ~eet full-time criteria on a yearly basis. No mention is made at all whether there are to be any exceptions to that rule . ..., -; I ' f!

~e~a~~e= 12 , 1980 ~3F ·e 2gas sc - 1 : :.~. ~10FG;._\i : ~C.,J, )l'..r • Spe~1<er, we are very cor.cern~c over ~his lac~ o: clear definitio ns o: the .:e.r.:~s 1:0 be usee i~ defini:-~g f;;ll -time and ?art -time fishe=:nen. l-ie are also very concerned over the esta!Jlishment and stn:cture of -che net.r Licen::ing .~ppeals Co;r_-ni ~:tees. \'ihi le the !)roch~.:re :10111 :nade avai~able to :ishermen states that the com:nittees \·iill be chaired by fishermen and that :nembers will also be iishermen, ic ioes nee indicate whether or not part -time fishermen are going to be on these appeal!! ccm:mitt.ees . nowever, it is rey uncierscanding that all membe rs - ana this Has in rece~t conversation the las;: day or r:1.;o with the :edera! aut~or:. -:.ies as a result of thei:-: so-calle1 ?=ess br:..efing yesterday to ~~e media by the :ederal authoric:..es - t~t these a?peals co~ittees will n~w consist of :ull -time fishermen. :.!r .

Speaker, •.Ne are strongly op;;o sed to ::-".at, the: :-:eason bei:-~g t~a;:-first of all,we are ~ct saying 7 ~~ -~ ": 'I'

December 12, 1980 Tape No. 2386 so- 1 MR. J . ~OP.GA.J.'\J: fishermen should not have a say and a voice in determination of the licencing dec~sions and appeals, ~ut it is cet~ainly not fair, it is simply not fair for one segment of the fishing industry who obviously would want to protect their own interest - the f\tll-time fishermen - to deter- mifie t~e eligibility of others who want to become full-time fishermen. And we are very concerned over that. We think that kind of a structure would, in a co~munity, for exampl~, and in rural Newfoundland is going to - MR. NEARY: (Inaudible) MR. J. MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, could you ask the lip for LaPoile Liberal opponent to keep quite, ~r . Speaker? MR. SPEP~ER(Simms): Order, please! ~R. NEARY: As soon as you make your point. 11R. J. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, if these fishermen, for example, who are full-time, arbitrarily decided upon by the federal authorities, are going to sit in a small rural community and make decisions preventing others from becoming full-time fishermen who want to become full·time fishermen, there are going to be some very strong ill-feelings created- l)1R. WARREN: (Inaudible) MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, now the lip from Labrador. Please~ MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! AN HON. 1-tEMBER: The hon. lip. MR. ~ORGAN: The hon. lip. TtJe are concerned, I'1r. Speaker, because of the fact that the full-time fishermen will have full control over whoever else becomes a full-time 77i'/

Decereber 12, 1980 Tape No. 2886 SD - 2 !-CR. MORGAN: fishermen. And that is going to cause some very - in fac~, not going to, it is already causing some very strong ill-feelings among fishing families in small communities, among fishermen them­ selves in sr:tall communi ties, and we have some str::mg reservations with that kind of a process. ~r.

Speaker, as of the last fe,~ days, the federal government has now arbitrarily decided that out of 35,00'0 licenced fishermen in our Province they, the federal officials, h~ve decided to send out notifications to all of these fishermen and they are only going to allow ll,OOO of the total 35,000 to be full-time fishermen. The~e are 35,000 licenced fishermen and they are only going to allow 11,000 of these to be full-time. Now, Mr.

Speaker, that means that at a time when we are talking about trading off cod stocks off our coast because we feel that foreigners can still come in and fish surplus fish, we are saying to our own Newfoundland fishermen, 'You hold do~~ your harvesting effort, you keep down your effort in fishing here in our Province because there is not enough fish for you .' At the same time we can trade off thousands of tons of fish to foreign nations. MR. HODDER: MR. SPEAKER(Sirnrns): has been raised. MR. J. HODDER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. Order, please! A point of order The hon. member for Port au Port.

This is not a Ministerial Statement, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) is now debating, clearly debating, and, you know, he is not reading his statement. It is not a Ministerial Statement any longer, it has turned into a debate. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: To the point of or3er, ~he hon. 7 7 'j 1

December 12, 1980 'rape ~o. 2886 SD - 3 1>1R. SPEAKER (SiiD;_-nS) : Minister of Justice. :ffi. OTTENHEH1ER: Mr. Speaker, t~ere is no requirement that a statement is to be read or ad libbed or a ~ixture of both. Also, a Ministerial Sta~eme~t is a sta~ement of government policy and I thi~k there is a reference in May very specific saying that the Chair, antil a Ministe'l:"ial If ., I I I I w.

~ecember 12, 1980 Ta?e No. 2887 DW - l "!-c.. G. OTTENHE Ii'!ER: Statement is OVer the Chair has no way of judging the nature of the statement. I co not ~hink there is any authori ::y on r.vhich the hon. member loJOUld be out of order. M~. SPEAKER (Simms): With rescect to the ooint of crder,the Chair understands that Ministerial Statements are made to t;>rovide information to the House '"ith respect to oolicies of the government. The understanding also further is that the member resconding is entitled to ask exolanations and make a few remarks, but no debate is chen allowed in resoonse ..

There is no order that I a~ fa~iliar with that savs that the minister oresentin~ the statement cannot exoound on those items that are _JOSed to be cas sing information t:o the :.:rouse. sup- The hon. Minister of Fisheries . SC,ME HON. :vfEM:BERS: Hear, hear! MR. J. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, the fact is that right now the fishermen in the Province are receivincr applications for their new licenses for the 1981 ~ishina season and the ':ederal authorities are tellincr them '"ho '"ill be a full-time fisherman and who will be a ~art-time fisherman.

Thev have identified in their aonlications to the fishermen,savii'g, 'You must now ap]Jly for a full-::i;ne fishing license'and that category totals 11,000. But the remaining amount, :vrr. Sneaker, the remaining number totals 24,000 Newfoundlanders who have been told, 'You rr.ust now a9nlv for a cart-time license,and if you ap~ly for a part­ time license and you are unsatisfied with the decision you can appeal it' . Ami how do you ap?€3.1 it?

The cruestion is answered by, 'You ~p?eal it through :neans of an appeals committee ccnsistina of full-time fishermen, and if you are dissatisfied,ao?eal to ~he fede=al minister.' 7 7 .! ~

December 12, 1980 Tape Nc. 2887 DVl - 2 'o1R. J. !110RGAN: So these arbitrary decisions, Mr. Speaker, again I ~oint out that the arbitrary decisions reached recentlv 1 the federal authorities in their own wisdom,without consultation with t~e Province, without consultation 1o1ith the fishermen, '.vithout consultation with the Fish Trades Association of our Province have a~tomaticallv decided that 11,000 fishermen onlv will be f~ll-time in our Prov~nce. '.fR. 2. NE.Z\.RY: (Inaudible) do not be so foolish. '1?. ,T. MORGAN: Mr. S9eaker, cculd I have sc~e order from the hon. ~i? again for LaPoile (Mr. S. Neary). VIP..

SPEAKER (Simrns): Order, please! I have had a chance to check Beauchesne a little further. There is a reference there that, 'The purpose of ll1inisterial Statements should be to con•rey information not to provoke debate'. SOME HON. VIE!I1BERS: "~R. SPEAKER: Hear, hear! Perhaps the minister might be enterinq into that area and I would ask him to confine to nis statement. MR. J. MORGAN: 'II!P_. SPEAKER: Minister of Fisheries. MR. J. MORGAN: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. On a point of order, ll1r. Sneaker. A point of order, the h.on. Mr.

Speaker, my point of order is this: the information I am givinq to the House of Assembly is information that is factual and accurate. I am not debating, I am merely suoplving to the House of Assembly the facts that are available to all fishermen throughout the Province. That is my point of order, !11r. Speaker. SOM~ HON. vrEMBERS: Oh,oh~ MR.. J. HODDER: To the point of o~der, Mr. Sneaker. MR. SPEAKE.Q : Order, please! Order, please! 7 7 -~ R

December 12, 1990 ':':pe :-:o . 2887 0\"< - 3 ~R. SPE~~R(Simms) : To t~e poi~t o: orcer, the ~on . member :or ~ort au P~r~ . ~!R . J • HODDER : To that poi:~t o: order, 1-'hat the minister has just done is he has challenged t~e Speaker's rul::~g. : mean, that is an abuse, an a!::u se o: the r·.1::.es o: this ~ouse, :1:::. Speak e::: . ~IR . G . OTT £NHLH IER : To tne point of order, ~r . Spea.<e::: . ~!i'.. SPEP.i<3R: To . : cne PO-:lt: ~= o=-de=, the ~on :>lini ster o: Justi.::e . HR.

OTTE)IHE IMER: The hon. mi:1i scer .:.n :10 ·11a'i challenged the Speaker 's ru~ing . ~ne Speaker's ruling ~as that i:1£ormacion may be communicated and to not enter ~:lt:O deba ~e. The hon mi:1.:.ster got: up on a point o: order and said it: was his incen cion co communicate information, and that is not any challenge of the Chair t!'lat I can see . SC~i£ HON . ME.'1BERS: Hear, ~ear ! 7 7 . 7

;,· Dec~ 12, 1980 Tape No. 2888 EL- 1 1--JR. SPEAKER (S.irrm3) : '-lith respect to the jX)il'1t of order, I ~ave lest the reference again but it is here in Beauchesne. It says that the minister presenting information in a Ministerial Statement sho~ld not provoke debate and I sug­ gest that the han. minister may be entering into that area very closely. The han. the Minister of :!"isheries. MR. '-'!ORGAN: ~r.

Speaker, I will repeat once more for the information of the House, the Federal Government has now arbitrarily decided in this Province that only 11,000 fishermen will be entitled to fish for fish on a full-time basis by sending out the application forms to them accordingly and advising them to apply for full-time licenses. The y have now arbitrarily decided as well that 24,000 of the fishermen in our Province, licensed by the federal 3uthorities, will now be automatically part-time.

If they are dissatisfied with these decisions arbitrarily made by federal authorities without consultation with the Province or anyone else in this Province ,~~at they are to appeal through an appeals committee. Now, Mr.Speaker, the other fact is that they have established ,again arbitrarily ,a deadline for these kind of appeals to be made. And we are verv con­ cerned over the deadline. The deadline is January lSth, a few weeks away. That means 24,000 fishermen will now have to get their a~s made and filed before the 15th day of January.

These sudden arbitrary decisions were made with­ out consultation with the Province or the :isherrnen or the trades. YiR • BARP.Y : Shame, shame! MR. MORGAN: Mr. Sneaker, the Opposition might not like this but it ~s facts . 7 7 ·; q

December 12, 1980 MR. SPEAKER (Si~~

s) MR. MORGAN: is indicating that - SOME HON. ~MBSRS: MR. SPEAKER: ~lR. MORGA..'l: Tape No. 2888 EL - 2 Order, please! Now, Mr. Speaker, the progra~me Oh, oh! Order, please! - no individual privileges to fish in '81 will be taken away in '81. However, for the purpose cf licensin~ all species of fish will be classified as restricted entry in '91 and the long-term objective of t~e federal fisheries is to rest~ict all limited entry licenses to full-time f:.i .,;"!ermen. Ho<v~ver, it is only full-time fish­ ermen will aet these restricted licenses. Now, Mr.

Speaker, in our view as a government ~his could have very serious consequences for our rural Newfoundland co~~unities,because it is obvious that from talkinq to the fish ~rades and the independant companies that fish landed by part-time fishermen is indeed very important in many parts of our Province, not cnl7 to fishermen but to also create a great deal of employment in our local fish plants that depend substantially on supplies of fish from these so-called part-time fishermen. Now, Mr.

Speaker, throughout the constitutional discussions,the Province has been continuall y advocating the need to have the Federal Government share - to share the power they have over fisheries with the Prov­ incial Government especiall y in areas which obviously affect local issues. And it is obvious to us that this licensing is indeed a very local 1 an important local issue, 77 !.::l

December 12, 1980 Tape 2889 EC - 1 MR. HORGAN: and it js one arsa where the Province should have an important contribution to make. ~ow, ~1r. Speaker, I want to give one more piece of information to the House this morning, factual information, that in recent days the deputy minister of our Department cf Fisheries and senior officials,and also from my level as minister, '·le have tried to obtain =. list of ~ishermen who are licenced in our Province, and the federal minister (Mr.

LeBlanc) and the federal deputy minister have refused to supply the Newfoundland Gover~~ent with a list 9f fis~ermen on whom they are now making decisions in such an arbitrary fashion. SOME RON. MEMBERS: ~!...'<.. SPE.AKER (Simms): :1R. MORGAN: 1Jh, oh! Order, p1ease! Therefore, Mr. Speaker, we cannot assess the federal system of classifying full-time/part-time fishermen because of the refusal of the federal minister to supply the Newfoundland Government with a list of holders of commercial fishing licences. So these arbitrary decisions are made behind closed doors, if you wish, by the federal government.

They are doing things strictly on their own even to the point of failing to SUP!'lY the goverD.lT!ent with information regarding the list of fishermen. Now, Mr. Speaker, in closing this statement this morning, I want to say one thing further. The fishery plays an extremely import&nt role in the social and economic structure of a rural Newfoundland and it is obvious,from where we sit as the government, t~at the Province should have more input in such a critical area as the fisheries as it pertains to our rural way of life. of this subject - SOME RON. MEMBERS: In vie><~ of the important nature Oh, oh! 77?n

December 12, 1980 Tape 2889 EC - 2 MR. MORG.i\..N : Mr. Speaker, could I hav~ order? ~~. SPEAKER (Si~~

s) Order, please~ MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, in view of the important nature of this subject, and of the nending review of the licencing system by the Royal Coromission into ~he inshore fisher~ the short-term provincial position is as foll01vs: that the federal government make no fundamental change in the licencing issue until the Royal Co~~ission into the inshore fishery report has been comoleted, number one SOME HON. HEHBEF.S: Hear, hear! 1-lR. MORGAN: Number two, that the Province should be involved in any appeal process on a government to government basis, not to be as another concerned group. AN HON.

MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR. ~lORGAN : ~nd number three, the federal - SOME HON. MEHBERS: Oh, oh! MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, it is impossible to make a Ministerial Statement here - MR. SPEAKER: Order, olease! Order, please! MR. MORGAN: - with the hon. lip for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) interferin0 all the ..... ~....lrr.e. HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. MORG.ili'J: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Number three, Mr.

Speaker, is that the federal government should provide this Province with the list of full-time fishermen and the list of part-time fishermen and the criteria they are using by the federal fisheries officers to categorize these fishermen. And that is not available now. Decisions ar~ made strictly by - SOME HON. t1EMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. MORGA~: Mr. Speaker! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. MORGAN: ~f they do not like it, well, at least keep quiet for a little while. 7 ''J ·1 ! I '-

December 12,1980 Tape No. 2890 AH-1 MR. ~!ORGli.N: Debate it after. Mr. Speaker~ these are the three positions of govern.rr,ent we are taking at chis time. And in the meantime,because of the numerous complaints from fishermen around the Province to my of=ice in the :ast twenty-four hours in particular, numberous complaints, phone calls, telegrams, requests for meetings, etc., we c>re now asking all fishermen throughout the Province who disagree with this new federal licensing policy system to >'lri te directly to the !Jrovincial Department of Fisheries and myself in partic1.1lar.

SOME HON.MEHBERS: MR.SPEAY.ER(Simms): Placenti.a i.-Jest. :>OME HON.:-!EHBERS: MR. HOLLZTT: Hear, hear! The hon. member for Burin- Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker, it is very seldom that one on this side of the House gets twelve and a half minutes to respond to a four minute Ministerial Statement. Twenty-five :ninut ::s! S011E HON .1'-1E~ffiERS : t1R.SPEAKER: Hear, hear! For the information of L~e hon. member 1the Ministerial Statement began at !0.05. MR.HOLLETT: I will rephrase it fc~ the sake of all the lovely people in Hansard, Mr. Speaker.

It is very seldom one gets ten minutes to respond to a four minute Ministerial Statement. SOME HON.MINUTES: Hear, hear! MR. HOLLETT: You know, Mr. Speaker, in al.:. sincPr' tv in relation to the fishery, and I have to be !1onest •.vith the House as I always am, I had t~1ree phone calls yesterday, one from a deep-sea captain, one from an owner of a sixt:r "ooter, one from the owner of a forty-five footer,and I lost all three bets. I was told that the ~1inister of Fisheries (~1r. Moroan) was acina to rr;ake a 772?

December 12 , 1980 ?ape ~o . 2890 .~ - 2 ~!R . !i0L:.£'r-T: statsment on a Fri day ::;orni:1g . I thoug::t it·..;~ goi"!'lg to be other tha.'l licer·::L'1g . fl.nd the minister get:s up he!:e and says the ?rovince had no i!'.;:>Ut in the so-called ne•1 licensir:g s ystem. No\• . ~~r . Speaker, ;.;e all knc'~ that over a y ear ago 7.he~e \vas a c ommission set Ut' to enauire into the l .icensing system in this ?rovince . It travelled all throuqhout the ?rovince . I made input , ~ - :.tinister , last April in ~arysto·,ln , all over the place a.'"ld I travelled all over 1:..'1€ place .

"IR . ~·O~G.;.;.l : One in St . ,Tohn' s , one in Cor"e:: Brook . SOME P.ON . 1-lEMBExS: Eear , !"lear. )i~ . S?EAKBR {Siwms) Or:ier , please! MR . r!OLLE!'T: H~ll, !-!r. Speaker, they had more .:han t~10 meetings , T!'\E-V '"ere in Marys"t:O\·Tn and else \•lhere; if you .,,ant: me to name them, I can. SOME P.ON • M.E~ERS : Oh, oh ! MR . SPEAKER: Order, please! ~! rt . :!.OLLc:TT: Now , t-1r. Spea ke: , look, :;: did net say or.e \•ere ·.-~hile me mir.iste:: •,;as speakin9' and I \vill tell you something else, Mr .

Speaker, I k."l0\-1 I arro not gettinq on celevision but the ninis-:.er has ':he right colour on for living colour this ~orninc . ~his kind of 3 statement, ~1r. . . '1i:1ister, on a Fricay morninc; is repugnant ~o the fishe~en. L,e fish plant workers - SOME HON.XE~~ERS: nea-r , hear! 772"-

December 12, 1980 Ta~e No. 2891 SD - l 11R. ;). HOLLETT: -and the fish processors in this Province. Mr. Speaker, I think it is hi.gh time that we got together i~ this Province - ~lR. HORGAN: Use vour position in the fisheries, come· on! · MR. SPEAKER (Simms) Order, please! MR. :J. HOLLETT: Yes, Mr. Minister, and I am going to have all 1981 booked. c1R. SPEAK~R: Order, please! Order, please! IVhat applies for one side applies to the other side,and the point that was made earlier about interr~ptions, I will have to make again • V:fe W'i 11 never get anyV·i'here today if we do not carry on.

The han. member fer Burin - Placentia West. ~!R. D. HOLLETT : Mr. Speaker, certainly I have no intention of getting upset this morning with all of our future leaders here i~ the gallery. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. :•!R. HOLLETT : But, Mr. Speaker, this staternen~ to me !"leans that much! \<Jhat I want to say this morning prior to Christmas and in a giving mood is very sirnple.

I have been here now for a year and a half, I have heard all sorts of members opposite, and some on our side, get up and we will talk about oil, we will talk about forestry, we will talk about mining and then either second, third, fourth or fifth, I will hear hon. members of this House, Mr. Speaker, get up and say,' Oh, ves, we l1ave to remember the fishery .. It is nurnber one in this Province.' With me it is number one, I am serious. MR . WAR...'li:N : More than the minister is. MR. HOLLETT: And, Mr.

Speaker, if we are soing to make it number orie, '"e all have to work together to ensure that as i~ was, as it is it will continue to be. None of those Friday morning press conferences, press releases, not ~J[inister.:.al Statements, .'1r. Speaker. It is 772!..

December 12, 1380 Tape No. 2891 so - 2 MR. HOLLETT: a press release, ensuring that the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) gets on television. Now, Mr. Speaker, there is another point I would like to make and give the minister some advice. HR. 1-JARRSN : 11IR. HOLLETT : He needs it. His predecessor did the same thing, he did it for four years, ~ir. Speaker, and if the min-ister would care to take the c;;_rJ..st:nas holiday 3.nd revi•.:w what happened to his predecessor, I will suggest, ..!r. Spea.ker, the same thing 'tlill happen to him i~ he continues ~his. S01>1E HON. "'ll:MBERS : Hear, hear. 14R.

HOLLE'rT: And if the minister cares to refer to the next election, if he cares to co~e up in the greatest fishing district in Canada and oppose :ne - MR. SPEAKER: Order, pleasP! I believe that might be a bit irrelevant to ~inisterial Statements. SOME HON. ME .MBERS: ~R. HOLLETT: Oh, oh! Mr .. Speaker, I said I was in a giving mood this Christmas so I •t~ill invite him up. SOME HON. :-ffiMBERS: ~!R. HOLLETT: Oh, oh! But, you know, I just could not believe this was all that was in the statement - the Province had no input.

There was a Royal Commission on licencing going on in this Province for over a year, everybody in this Province had an opportunity to participate and make input. The minister gets up and says, 'Appoint a Royal Commission on the fishing i·ndustry ,' Clkay . 'I'he only part that counts, Mr. Speaker, is the Eourth page, you know, 'The federal government will make no fundamental dmmge in L,e licencing issue until the Royal Commission R:port has been completed'. Now, ~r.

Speaker, that Royal Commission r,;.:;s su:;:>posed to have been completed at the end of last month and now we know it is n~t going to be comple~ed uncil 772~

December 12, 1980 )o!R. HOLLETT: MR. WARREN: Tape No. 2891 March or April - What? SD - 3 MR. HOLLETT: - next year, sure. The Province will only be involved in the appeal process on a government to government basis. ~1r. Speaker, if the people who are going on those commissions, on the 772R

December 12, 1980 Tape No. 289-2 EL - 1 MR. HOLLETT: appeal boards are not Newfound- ~anders and knowledgeable Newfoundlanders in the fishery, then, Hr. Speaker, I ·..,ill resign my seat - fair ball? - to the minister. 11R. STAGG: (Inaudible) MR . HOLLETT: You would like that, the hon. member for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg). Now, Mr. Speaker, before I sit down - now, it is not very often I get upset, but before I sit down, to the r.on. the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.Morgan), I would like to offer an invitation so that we all will understand what tbe fisheries is about.

The first boat 1viJ.l be leaving the Burin Peninsula for the deepsea fish- ery abo~t January 2nd, I will invite the hon. the minister to share with me, if he cares to, a dual room for a ten day trip into the North Atlantic to find out how the deepsea fishery operates. when we come back from that, I will go with the hon. minister on a sixty-five footer and see what that is like, and then after that we will go out and probably try a nine bed dory with a five Atlantic in her in Francoise and find out what that is like in February.

Then the hon. minister will know what the fishery is about, not give press conferences. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER CS iroms )_ : Hear, hear! Order, please! I am sure hon. members would like to join with me this morning in welcoming to the Galleries as well, fifty-four grade lX students from Mary Queen of the World School of the district of Mount Pearl along with their teachers, Sister Ann and Mrs. Hall. We hope they enjoy their visit ~his morning. SCME HON. MR~BERS: Hear, hear! 7727

Decenber 12, 1980 Tape c-<o. 2892 EL - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): And I am also pleased to welcome to the Galleries today the Deputy Mayor of St. John's, Mr. Ray 0 'Neill. SOME HON. :•!EMBERS: MR. 8PEAKER: velonrn'C'!"'::. HR. S. NEAR~: MR. SPEAKER: ~ffi. WINDSOR: Hear,hear! Any further statements? The hon. the ~inister of De- The Friday morning parade. Order, please! Mr. Speaker, I am pleased - when ~omper R~om is finished, Mr. Speaker, I will make an attempt to make this statement. I am pleased to announce today the appoint­ ment of Mr.

Calvin Anstey to the position of Assistant Deputy Minister of Tourism in the Department of Development. In this position,Mr. Anstey will be responsible for all aspects of the development of the tourism industry in the Province. He will be wcrking closely with the various tourism development assoc­ iations and other interested gYoups and organizations in this regard. Mr. Anstey is a graduate of Memorial University of New­ foundland in Engineering and of Nova Scotia Technical College in Industrial Engineering.

He has worked for four years in in­ dustry with Colgate-Palmolive Limited and Dominion Glass Company Limited. And since 1974 he has been with the Government of New­ foundland and Labrador, most recently as the director of Develop­ ment and Promotion Division for the Department of Development. Mr. Anstey is married with ~~ree children and takes up his new position on December 29, 1980. I am extr~~ely pleased with the add­ ition of Mr. Anstey to the senior management team of the Depart­ ment of Development.

I am confident that through his efforts and those of his new staff, further positive progress will be realized in the growth of the tourism industry in our Pyovince. SOME nON. c1E.MBERS: Hear, hear! 772R

December 12, 1980 Tape 2893 EC - 1 HR. SPEll.KER (Simms) The hon. the membe:!:" for Torngat Mount:~ins. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I, also, on behalf of our colleagues, extend a welcome to Mr. Anstey to the Ministry of Development, and I am sure that he will bring knowledge to the department which is going through a crucial state in this Province. There is a long way, Mr. Speak.er, for Tourism to go in Newfoundland and Labrador and I hope that the minister, in Mr. Anstey,has come up with a gentleman who I am sure will let Newfoundland and the rest of Canada know that Newfoundland is a great place for tourists.

SOME HON . ~!EMBERS : Hear, hear: MR. SPE.il.KER: Further statements. The hon. the Minister of Lands and Forests. MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, at this time SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! !!-!R. L. BARRY : Doing our hanework, l:oys ,doi..'1.g our harework. MR. POw~R: Mr. Speaker, at this time I would like to provide this hon. House with a

summary of this year's activities under the Forest Economic Stimulation ~rograrnrne. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Y!R. POWER: This programme is a cost shared one with the federal government under DREE and is in the second year of a four year agreement. There are four elements to the F.E.S. programme - Site Rehabilitation. Stand Improvement, cable Logging and Industry Programmes. Site Rehabilitation consists oi the removal of budworrn damaged timber on selected acres followed by reforestation with more budworm resistant black spruce trees. "''?C! I I ~

!,:• December 12, 1980 Tape 2893 EC - 2 !1R. POlo.i'ER: Stand Improvement, Mr. Speaker, involves two activities, stand manipulation and roadside clearing. Manipulation is achieved by thinning the forest in the 0 to 20 age class, spacing in the 21 to 40 year age class,and fertilization of the 41 to 60 year old trees. Roadside cleaning to remove disease and wind thrown trees along with other debris is the second aspect of stand improveme?t· Cable Logging activities to harvest timber under steep slopes is the third element of the F.E.S. programme.

A fourth component consists of industry projects involving pre-commercial thinning, site reclamation, shoreline cleanup and tree planting by the two paper companies on their freehold lir:1its. There is a SillTh~ary, Mr. Speaker, in the statement, of the districts and areas where money has been spent. In all, forty-two projects were carried out, twenty-four of which have been completed and eighteen of which are still active. The programme created 565 jobs this year. In addition, there are nineteen professional personnel who are employed on a full-time progra~e to supervise the implementation.

The total expenditure on the programme to date is $2,443,000 with budget projection of $3.2 million by March 31, 1981. This programme reflects my department's concern for the forest of our Province and represents a positive step towards good forest management. SOZ.!E HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER (Simms) MR. TULK: Hear, hear! The hon. the member for Fogo. Mr. Speaker, I want first of all to say that we on this side welcome the minister's statement 77~fi

December 12, 1980 Tape 2893 EC - 3 MR. TULK: just as a point of information, not that it gives much direction to government or to this Province in forestry. Now, we are pleased, t1r. Speaker, to see that at least one minister on that side this reorning is saying that they are getting some federal help in a certain resource sector of this Province. MR. WARrtE"l: Fight on! Right on! Better than ~he guy si~ting next to him. 7 7 3 1

December 12, 1980 !"\R. B. TULK: minister in that view Taoe No. 2894 DW - l 'V!r. Speaker, I would urge the not to sit in his seat sulking about or making oress releases about what the Minister of National Revenue is doinq 1 but hurry up and get that $47 million forestry agreement sianed. SO~E HON. ~EMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. B. TULK: Now, Mr. Speaker, the ministe~ talks abou~ site rehabilatation. I want to suggest co the minister that in view of the infestation and the over­ naturation of timber in this Province that this oroqramme should perhaps be one hundred fold as big.

The truth of the matter is that the forests in this Province are dying. The timber is either dying or dead and the minister should increase his progra!mne perha!?s one hundred fold . In his statement he also mentions, Mr. Speaker, roadside cleaning. And I think most of the roadside cleaning that 'tle have seen done in this Province has been done,again,by Canada Works,another feoeral programme. He also speaks of the paper companies cleaning up their freehold limits. Mr.

Speaker, I want in the very short time that is available to me,to tell the minister that I think the paper comoanies should indeed be paying some of the cost of this work because they have been oerhaps the worst culprits. Let me go on to say that I notice only eleven peoole were employed on these progra~~es in Labrador. Now, Mr. Soeaker, it is great to see 565 jobs 1 but only eleven of them, I think, carne from Labrador. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAK~R (Simms) : Order, please! 773?

December 12, 1980 Tape No. 2894 DW - 2 MR. a. TULK: I want to clue U?, Mr. Speaker, by saying that I think the minister's programme is welcomed . But I wa~t to suggest to him that his ~rogramme should have been perhaps ten or one hundred fold as big as it is. SOME HON. ME~AERS: Hear, hear! ~!R. SPEA:o:\ER (Sirruns) : The han. Minister of Education. ~1S. VERGE: ~!r. Speaker, today I am pleased to release.the second re~ort of the task force on educa~ion entitled, Imnrovinq School Reten~~ o:t!_ .~!1-C. __ P£_~:t:5e:c:o_::~ary Partici-oation .

I am particularly delighted to do this with so many high school studeots sitting in the galleries. The first reoort from the task force was released in Julv 1979 and focused on orimary, eleme~tary and high school education. This reoort deals with post-secondary education or thc.t l:Ja:ct of the system serving the adult population of the Province. The Province's post-secondary education institutions include Memorial University of Newfoundland; the College of Trades and Technology; the College of Fisheries, Navigation, ~arine Engineering and Electronics; the Bay St.

George Community College; hospital schcols of nursing and seventeen vocational schools adminis- tered by the Department of Education. In addition, the Education Deoartment's division of Adult and Continuing Education administers academic upgrading and personal interest cour-ses for adults in co=unities throughout the Province in response to local requests. The renort covers ma~y aspects of the post high school system including Adult and Cantin- uing Education. I would like to highlight six of the major topics 7731

December 12, 1980 Tape No. 2895 RA - l MS. VERGE: dealt with by the report.No.(l)Concerns in Post-Seco~dary Education. Some of the concerns identified are: The need for co-ordination in Post-Secondary System; The labour force orientation of Post-Secondary Education;Selection and admiss­ ion ?Olicies of Post-Secondary Institutions; ALJ the need for changes in Teacher Education Programs. No. (2\ Effect of ?Opulation trends on Post-Secondary Education. Post-Second­ ary Institutions have not had their enrolments affected by a decrease in the population of eligible candidates.

However, it appears that this situation is about to change drastically. ~.esuming no major population shift or change in pupil retent­ ion rate at the high school level, the data point to to a reduction of some twenty-five per cent in the grade eleven population over the next decade. This rate of decrease holds the potential for major distruptions in the Post-Secondary System. No. (3l Student selection and admission policies. The report argues that completion of High School Education should be the basic standard for admission to Post-Secondary Programs.

However, provision should be made for accepting macure students and allowing them to acquire competence in the basic skills. S0:-1E HO!l.. MEMBERS: t-1S. VERGE: Hear, hear~ No. (4). Education and E~ployment. Based on available data on past employment patterns and pro­ jections of employment requirements for the future, the Task Force says a case can be made, on the one hand, for expansion of higher academic, technology and technical programs given at the University and the Colleges and, on the other hand, for reduction in basic trades courses taught at Vocational Schools, at least in the short term.

No. {5) Teacher Education. 7?3:.c.

Deceml::er 12, 1980 Tape No. 2895 RA - 2 MS. VERGE: The Teacher Education Programs hace served the clientele of the seventies extremely well. However, the Province now has a teaching force with changed characteristics - highly qualified and young, and teaching in schools where there are changing expectations and T.elatively little teacher mobility. This points to a need for a serious review of some Teacher Education. Programs. Finally No.

(6) Community Colleges. The report recommends a community college system for the Province utilizing the existing Vocational Schools. Six community college regions are suggested, each with its own Board of Governors and a Chief Executive Officer. The colleges would have responsibility for training in the trades, academic upgrading for adults, as well as general interest pro- gramms based on community needs. The Department of Education has been examining its approach to the whole area of advanced and continuing education and we will be using the report to assist us in this rev.iew.

We are particularly interested in the recommendations on community colleges. The first such institution, The Bay St. George Community College, was established three years ago at Stephenville, and the report recommends a Province-wide system with s similar function and structure. 773r:;

December 12,1980 Tape No . 2996 .!'.H -1 ~!S . VERGE : !n ~ugust of this year a new ~osition was cre ated in the DeparL~ ent of Education. that o: .:~.ssistant !Jeputy Minister responsible :or advanced and continuing education. Cyril McCormick was appoin~ed. to the pos ition . This 1-'aS done to C!iVe qreatec emphasis ~o post -sec ondary educatio n and to inc:ease our efforts to promote greater co -ordinatio n among our post ­ secondary institu tions and adult education system .

One of the ~easons :or rene1.;ed e~phasis on advanced ana continuing education is the need for new trainin~ and educa~i o n p~ related to of:s~ore oil and gas developtt~ent . Government ha s established a co -ordinating committee of OPIC to as sis t in planning for the impact that off shore developme nt w~ll have on the Province . Sot ~ Cyril HcCormic l< and the :>epu~y ~-!ini st er. Cecil Roebothan, serve on t~e committee.

It is my belief c~at education and training have to be si~i=ican= :actors in thac plannin~ to ensure that the citi zens of our Province have acces s to the employment opportuniti es chese developments will offer. In co nc lusion , Mr . Speaker, I would li ke to express on behalf of government. the Department of Sduca~ion and myself.our apprec~ati~n anc thar:ks to the t•nc :nembers of the task :!'o rce, Dr. Frank Riggs a:1d Or . Bob Crocker of ::-iemorial O:llv ersity, :or pro viding us with t1r10 very valuable reports.

I~ is my intent ion to distribu~e copie s of chis second repor~ that ~ ~m releasing today to al l institutions and a ~encies in the Province L~vol~ec in ~raininq a:1d educat~on ac =he pes~- 773R

December 12 ,1980 '!'ape Nc • .2896 AH -2 :·IS . V8RGC:: seco~dary ~no adult level s and to seek t~ei: op1nions and co~ments before proceeding to make final decisi~ns on the rgcommenda~ions. SO~fE HON .!A"l"MBERS : ~!R . SPEA~'ER (Simms ): Bay De Verce . S0t1E EON .1•1ENBERS: NR . F .RONE : Thank you . Hear, hear~ T~e hon . ma~ber for Trinity - Hear, hear : Mr. Speaker, I have had the pleasure of 3er ·:inq :lnd teachir.g ~o~ith the two gentlemen, Dr. Crocker and Dr. Riggs at tile U!'..L'.'ersicy.

I have caucht high school for four years. unive:sity for seven years, and I have been in this House of Assembly for eight and a half years and this ~iniste:ial Statement, '-tr. Speake r, is nothin9 but a catalo9ue of ~isasters caused by ~he inaction of chis present: government. SOl>"..E !-!ON .~!EMBERS: near, hear! 7737

December 12, 1980 Tape No. 2897 SD - l HR. F. ROWE: This Ministerial Statement, L-!r. Speaker, is nothing but a repetition of the needs that I have listened to for the past twenty years in education - sa-JE HCN. MEl'1BERS: Hear I hear. MR. F. ROWE: - on which we have had no action by this government. And, Si~, it is also, this Ministerial Statement_, a catalogue of the lack of educational policy and direction on the part of this administration. Sir, we have had enough studies and •.;e have had enough 9romises and it is time that we got on with some action, ~tr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, when one looks at this Ministerial Statement and has a quick look at the recommendations 1 which I must-say I have not had an opportunity to read through completely in this new Task Force Report, but, ~lr.

Speaker, in the Throne S9eech of 1974, 1,000 extra vocational school students were promised~ in the Throne Speech of '74 again, new polytechnical institute to be built; in the Throne Speech of 1975, new residences for the College of Trades and Technology_ and the polytechnL:al institute; in the Throne Speech of 1 73, An Offshore r-~:an 1 s Needs Conference for oil and gas; in a Throne Speech of 1 71, the PCs will initiate a province­ wide educational television progr~~e SO~~ HON. MEMBERS: ~1R. F. ROWE: Oh, oh! - in the Throne Speech of 1972, Mr.

Speaker, regional collecres to be set up all over the Province - !-1R. FLIGHT: MR. F. ROWE: one for Grand Falls. SOME HON. ~£MEERS: C1R. F. ROWE: Includin~ Grand Falls . - and in the Throne Speech again, Hear, hear. Mr. Speaker, quite honestly and sincerely, Mr. Speaker, I have looked at this document, the Ministerial Statement this morning, and I cannot see one sing le thing that ~s ~e w , that is needec, that has not already 773P

December 12, 1980 Tape No . 2897 so - 2 MR • F . ?.Oi~"E : been stated as a need in the field of education . The only 9roblem , Mr . S_9eaker , there h.as been a total failure and an abys smal lack of action and a dismal lac k of ac~on on the part of tnis administration over the period of time since 1971 . SOME HCN • ~1E11BERS : Rear, hear. HR . F . :!.ONE : And I am calling on this aCministration, :>!r . SpeaJ...-er, to stop issuing ~tinisterial Statements in the field of educatio ·n, stop setting up ::eports and furt.'ter studie s,and get on with some action for a change . SOME F!O); . ~NBERS : Hear, hear. MR .

SPEI\KER (Si:nms) : The hon . Minister of Transportation . MR . c. 3RETT : Mr . Speaker, I had a Ministeri~l Statement on proposed changes to the Fogo Island ferry _. but it is almost eleven o'clock , so I will table the statement It •.-Jill be passed around in the House for hon . members to read . SOME BON • ~1EMBERS : Hear , hear . ,i3 0

December 12, 1980 Tape No. 2898 EL - 1 !~R. S?EAKE£< (Sirruns): Any further statements? I am sorry, the han. member for St. Barbe has about ten seco~ds if he wishes. .t-1R. BEnNETT: I would like to congratulate the minister on something at last that looks like a positive ap­ proach in ~lanning and I hope that this is followed up by the minister to other parts of the Province,especially over in are2 that ~ know so very well where there has been an awful lot of ~eglect. It looks to me, Mr.

Speaker, like this is a positive approach and the minister, the last one, was the o~ly positive approach that t~ere was coming from all ~~in­ isterial statements. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SO~ nON. ~EMBERS: Hear, hear! ORAL QUE'STIONS MP.. SPE.:\KER: The han. the Leader of the Opp- osition. MR. STIRLING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question appropriate, I think,this morning,when we are talking ai:::out the promises of this government as this session draws to a close. One of the promises made which we were going to get in the S!.Jring and I thought again in the Fall Has an election expenses act.

Is that going to be introduced this session, be­ fore we close? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I do not believe the hon. Leader of the Opposition indicated who the question was being posed to here. MR. STIRLING: The President of the Council in the absence ~t the Premier . MR. SPEAKER: The han. the President of the Council. "'lR. :"!.l'._RSHALL: Nell, Mr. Speaker, to be quite ace- urate -although not technically - to be quite accurate the election 7 7 t .. n

December 12, 1980 Tape No. 2898 EL - 2 1'-!R. MARSHALL : expenses has been introduced because it has gone th::ough first reading. We have? i.n this session, Mr. Speaker, monumental matters to get through before adjournment,such as the water rights reversion with respect to the Upper Churchill, the - MR. S. NEARY: ~hat is done. MR. MARSHALL: - no, it is not completely passed yet,and the ERCO legislation, all of these things so we have this with our on-going legislation.

There will be an election ex­ penses act brought before this Assembly ,but obviously •t<e will not be able to do it before the break at Christmastime. MR. STIRLING: MP.. SPF AKER (Simms) Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: A supplementa~, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. the Can the President of the Council give us any assurance that the election expenses act will be dealt with through the various readings, not just introduced and allowed to die on the Order Paper?

Will the President of the Co•.mcil (lv.Marshall) give us an assurance that the election expenses act will be dealt with prior to the next election? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL : Mr. Speaker, I can give assurances. I can say that it is the government's intention and it is the government's policy to enact an appropriate act of this nature before the next election. But,Mr. Speaker, I cannot say, of course, when the next election is. That is for the hon. the Premier.

If the hon. gentlemen continue in their resistance to the recapture of our rights to the Upper Churchill and Constit- utional matters they may - I have, Mr.Speaker, I have ~o con- trol over when the election is called, but I will say that if 7 7 4 '!

December 12, 1980 Tape No. 2898 EL - 3 :'1R. l-1.~RS HALL : ~he government goes the term for which it has been elected that I am sure we can expect to see it . MR. NEARY: ~tr . Speaker. MR . SP!!:AKER (Simms) : The hon . member for LaPoile. r-1R . NEARY : Mr . SoeRlrer. T ~how~d the Eouse, last Spring where they could find S3 cnillion r>rooably to help the people down in Southern Labrador lvi th their road or fly stretche r cases from Western Labrador . Could the minister tell us ...,r..at he ha.s done about recovering, recouping that $3 million German·.' that I discovered over in a bank in Hamburg in 771..?

Dece~ber 12, 1980 Tape 2899 EC .., 1 MR. NEARY: that was confiscated or seized or frozen by a company called Schurfeld in Hamburg~ MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! I do not believe the hon. member indicated which minister. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. OTTENHEIMER: The Minister of Justice. The Minister of Justice. The hon. the Minister of Justice. Mr. Speaker, I should point out that this amount of around $2.7 million is not, you know, sitting in a bank wai til'}g to be picked up. If that \.;ere the case, there would be no problem to it.

It is not just there and a matter of phoning them or somebody going over and saying, 'Fine, we will have that money now; thank you for looking after it,' and bri~g it back. It is an amount in dispute, which Schurfeld says it does not owe ~nd which the former Labrador Linerboard mill, which has now been taken over by the Crown and Industrial Development there­ for·e succeed to it, claim is owed. The last time the hon. gentleman raised the question, I told him that there would be an attempt to come to a negotiated settlement. This has not been successful. There is no negotiated settlement. 7 7 4 i

December 12,1980. Tape No. 2900 AH-1 MR. OTTENHEIMER: What the Department of Justice is doing now in consultation with the Department of Industrial Development is examinin9 the credentials of a number of West German counsel in order to hire one to pursue the matter in West Germany through the legal processes there because there has been no negotiated agreement. ~R.NEARY: A supplementary. MR.SPEAKER (Simms): member for LaPcile. MR.NEARY: A supplementary. The hon. Mr.

Speaker, it is absolutely incredible This matter.is outstanding for over three years and I would gather from the minister's answer that they really have not done that much about it. Now would the minister tell the House if there is a provision to arbitrate this matterlAnd if there is a provision to arbitrate the matter, where will the arbitration take place­ in Newfoundland, in Canada, in North America or on the other side of the Atlantic? ~R.SPEAKER: MR.OT'C'ENHEIMER: The hon. Minister of Justice. Mr.

Speaker, if there were an agreement to arbitrate,then according to the previous agreement that would take place in E~gland; if there were an agreeroent or if there were some other form of arbitration obvious~y both parties could so agree. As I pointed out1 Schurfeld has not come to any agreement with the Province and therefore action against them. !1R.NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR.NEARY: the next move is to take legal A supplementary, Mr.Speaker. A final supplementary. Mr. Speaker, this is a complete outrage.

Could the minister tell the House how come a matter concerning Labrador ~ inerboard , concerninq the provincial government, the taxpayers of this Provice has to be arbitrated over in England? Why not in this Province? How did that happen? 774i..

December 12,1980 Tape No. 2900 AH-2 MR.SPEAKER (Simms}: The bon. Minister of Justice. MR.OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, that is pursuant to an agreement made between Labrador ~inerboard and Schurfeld some years ago. Labrado~ ~inerboard made it and schurfeld made it, the two people involved. They are the ones who made it.

I mean, the hon. member will recall that it is a number of years now that matters with respect to Churchill ' Falls are in the courts and in matters of t;1is type of complexity it is not unusual that it takes a period, of time But I would point out that there is no money sitting in a bank to be picked up. r"f that were the case, all \'le would have to do is to get the Deputy Minister or myself,or even the hon. gentleman, get him a ticket to go over to Hamburg with a letter of introduction,'This ~s the hon. member for Sc-and-So; he has kindly volunteered to come over and pick up the check and brin~ it back and deposit it with the ~xchequer account~ But it is not that. they dispute owing it.

We claim it is owed and they dispute owing it. MR.TULK: Mr. Speaker . MR.SPEAKER: The hon.member for Fogo. Mr.TULK: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Transportation(Mr. Brett) and it is in relation to his Ministerial Statement this morning in which he sets out that the Fogo Island ferry is going to be rerouted. And I can agree with much that is in that, Mr.

Speaker, that statement that he has made But I would like to ask the minister, he speaks of going to West Indian Island , I would like to ask the minister , he said something about the difference in costs, it was toe great for the provincial government at this time, what would the difference in cost have been 774~

Decerr~er 12,1980 Tape No. 2900 AH-3 MR. TULK: between what he has now proposed and the route to Indian Islands, Frederickton? MR.SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. Minister of Transportation. r 4•, ~ I I I.., r.

December 12, 1980 Tape 2901 EC - 1 MR. BRETT: Mr. Speaker, I just got this report a couple of days ago and I really have not had a chance to go through it as I should, but it indicates here in the report that the West Indian Island - JOU are talking about building a cause .way from Fogo Island to West Indian Island and then a ferry from there on to Farewell or Carmanville or whatever. The figures given here are something in the magnitude of $5 million.

Now, I do not know if that is the causeway or just the terminals, but I do know that the cost was such that, you know, it would be impossible for us to undertake it in the next number of years. And actually, you would not be improving the service all that much because - AN HON. MTMBER: You would still need the ferry. MR. BRETT: Yes, because people would still have to use the boat. Now, if you were to spenc that kind of dollars and then the boat would no longer be involved and you could look at it, but to spend that kind of mcney and still have to use a boat, we do not think it is sensible. MR. TULK: MR.

SPEAKER (Simms): for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. II. supplementary, the han. the member I think the $5 million that the minister is talking about includes the ferry terminals at both West Indian Island and Frederickton, as well as the causeway. Mr. Speaker, the minister also in this statement refers to the signing of an agreement with Transport Canada. I would like to ask the minister to clarify whether indeed the work that he is planning on doing on Fogo Island is dependent upon signing that agreereent, what the cost of the project is, and what the contribution 7747

December 12, 1980 Tape 2901 EC - 2 MR. TULK: of the federal government will be? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the Minister of Transportation. MR. BRETT: Mr. Speaker, when we took over the ferry systems a little over three years ago, part of the agreement was a number of millions of dollars to upgrade the existing ferry terminals and wharves and what have ycu. Some of that work has been completed, some of it still remains to be done. One of them, as the hon. member knows, is Fogo Island.

The remaining part of the agreement has not been signed because we are trying to come to some agreement with respect to the Greenspond ferry or causeway, whichever, and that has been the hang-up. Now, obviously, something will have to be done between now and the end of the fiscal year because I do not think we can go on too much longer in that Greenspond area without making a decision. So that is the agreement that I am talking about. I think it will be signed reasonably soon. The money is there.

It is not a matter of going to the federal government now; there is no negotiating to be done or anything like that, it is just a matter of signing the agreement. And the cost of putting a new terminal and wharf in Man of War Cove and an extension on the wharf in Farewell is approximately .$900.000. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: A final supplementary, the hon. Mr.

Speaker, the last part of the Ministerial Statement says in talking about the road to Stag Harbour on Fogo Island up to Man of War Cove, the last statement of the minister says, 'My department is hopeful that this work can be commenced in an early year.' Does the minister mean early in the next year - Al.'< HON. MEMBER: Or the year after? HR. TULK: - or the year after or whatever? 774R

!! D~cember 12, 1980 - Tape 2901 EC - 3 MR . TULK: Does it mean it will be done this year? And will the minister further commit himself to 9aving 'the last major road that is left on Fogo Island to be paved, immediately after that, and that is the Island Sarbour -Deep i!.ay road? MR . SPEAKER (Simm s): The hon. the Minister of Transportation . MR . BRETT: Mr. Speaker, an early year could be next y.ear or the nex .t year or the next year .

Obviously, with the re-r outing of the ferry, I think that these two sections of road, the one tl'lat we would have to . build - it is not very much - and ~hen the route from Fare well Head across, as I said, re -routing this would place these roads on a higher, probably , priority list than they are no~s because they are going to be heavily used by not only the residents of Fogo Island but people who commute back a.nd forth . 7744

Oec a ~er 12, 1980 Taoe ~o . 2902 DW - 1 'IR . C . BRETT : 3ut I co not k;;ow ~then an early yea r woulc be . ;..n early year ;..;ould not ~e t\,rency vears away Eor sure,and t;>rcbably le ss than ten . 3ut I do not: k:1ow exac tlv when it would be and ! car.!'lot <;:ive the ~on . ~ember a commi~~ent :or t:~~ remaining roads on Fogo Isla nd. :om . B . T!JLK : S9eaker . 'L~ . SPE.ll.IG:R (Simms) : River . :1~ . '!'ULi< : '1R . SPEAKER : Eagle River vield? '1.1:\ . E. li!SCOCR: ~R . SPEAKER : 'lR . B . TULK : A fi~al suppla~r.tary, ~r . The ~on . member :or ~agle Is the ~i~ister ~ow - Order , olease !

Does che ~on . ~ember :or Yes , I yielc . The hon . member :or Fogo . !s che ministe r now ~elling •he Rouse ~hat he is qoinq to re -rou ce t~e ferry but that: the road co Stac Harbour "'•il: :lOt: be :laved ~ext: year when chat: jcb is bei::la done? Is that what he is tal~ing about? ~ . SPEAK ER: oortacicn. ~!R • C . 3RETT : The hon . ~inister of Trans - t~r . Spe aker , it is going to be lace in !981 or Soring o: l982 before these chances are mace , so it does not ma tt er i: t:he read is done this summer or not as far as the !er ::y ooeracion is con - ce rn ed . ~t.~ .

SP !:Al<ER : The hon . membe= :or Sacle ~~;er . 77t.n

December 12, 1980 Tape No. 2902 DW - 2 MR. E. HISCOCK: ~r. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Lands and Forests (~r. Pm.,rer1, ?articularly with regard to the high unemployment and many bankruptcies in the Goose Bav area. Can the :1.1.inister of Lanes and Forests inform me that the lease or the grant to the Canadian Armed Forces for ~o ~arne ~ake is cancelled? Will it be renewed next year? ~as it been cancelled? And can the minister inform us wha.t the position of ~o "i!ame Lake now is in •r~ith regard to the provincial goverr~ent and the Canadian Armed .Forces? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The han.

Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. C. POWER: Thank vou, Mr. Speaker. I assume the hon. member is asking a question about, I guess, the fishing earn~ that the Canadian Armed Forces have been operating -~ a c. !'lo Name ~ake. ls that what you are talking about? The lease there, Mr.

Speaker r we have had several discussions with the department re- snonsible primarily for - altho•.1gh our department gives the lease, we give t.l-Je lease on the recc:mnendation of the depart:rent responsible for wildlife management in the Province, which haooens to be - I guess the hon. minister is not in his seat now, but he is the minister 1.;ho reccmrends to our department whether that lease should be renewed for each year. If he recommends 1or if his department recommends that the lease should be continued then, of course, our denartment has very little option other than to give the leases as ~nolied for.

As I understand it , that lease is up for renewal each year ana that no decision has been made as to whether it will be renewed fer the 1981 season. I know there were several discussions in the year of 1979,when I ~appened to be resnonsible for wildlife management,with the persons responsible in senior oersonnel of the Canadian Armed Forces,people who ran the base. Ne had at least thought about cancelling 7 7 51

December 12 , 1980 Tape No . 2902 Dtv - 3 'o\R. C • PO~'Ert : ~~e lease in 1979 and 1980.A£te r they mad e several imoroveffi ents in the opera~ion of the cam9, oarticularly as it related to the wildlife manaqemen~ and the enfor ce ment of the requlations on the river itse lf 1 tve decided to renew the lea se for 1980 ,wh ich is the year that has just Ei~ishec,the fishing seas on . ~L~ . !US COCK : ~t.R . C . PONER : (!~audible) on the lake . Nell , on the lake, that is the c .4 I mea n. But no decision ha s been made as to the year of 1981 whether we will reoe1.; that lease on the lake itsel= . ~ . E.

HISCOC!(: MR . SPEAKER (Simms) : member for Ea gle Rive r. 1-tR . E. HISCOCK: A supp lementary, ~tr . Soeaker . A supplementary, t~e hon . With regard to, ~ . Soeaker , not to ~e t it mixed up with the ~ir Command havino - ~!R . '~E.i\RY : MR. E • HI SCCC: <: regard to the lakP, (Inaudible) a hide-awa y. - Eagle River its elf but •,;:.th 775 ?

December 12, 1980 Tape, No. 2903 so - 1 MR. E. HISCOCK: it is a recreation f~r the servicemen themselves of the Canadian Armed Forces, it is not the Air Co~~and on the Eagle River. What this government is basically saying to the federal government is that they want a Canadian Air Force Base or ArQed Forces Base at Goose Bay.

When you say each year it has to be reviewed - basically No ::~Ia!11e L"ake was transferred, the lands and titles and all the buildings there, from the Americans, could you, as the minister, inform me, why is it that this has to come UF each year and to be referred ,particularly when it is for recreational purposes for the morale of the Canadian Armed Forces in Goose Bay, why is it that it has to come up each year to be reviewed? MR. SPEAKER (Si~~s): Resources and Lands. i-!R. C. POvJER: The han. Minister of Forest Mr.

Speaker, it has to be reviewed each year because we have a continuing interest as wildlife managers in this Province for the wildlife of Labrador and the management of it. And there have been many abuses in Labrador and therefore we are not, as a government, willing to say, you have it carte blanche the next thirty or forty or fifty or one hundred years until the resource is totally wip~d out, that we are going to renew those leases that we have, the licence that we have for all persons in Labrador on a yearly basis,and we are going to continue to do that because we have an interest in managing the resource.

SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: MR. HISCOCK: Hear, hear. The hon. member for Eagle River. I am sure that the Canadian Armed Forces would be the first ones to agree with you that one needs to manage the resources and the wildlife of Labrador and its fisheries and salmon and whatever. Can the minister 7753

December 12, 1980 Tape No. 2903 SD - 2 MR. E. HISCOCK: inform this House now, has there been any breach whatsoever in the Canadian Armed Forces of any regulation of this government and has it not had great co-operation between the Canadian Armed Forces and this government? 11R. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. C . PO\'-'JER: Mr.

Speaker, as I understand it, no charges have been laid under breaches of the ~~ildlife Act in that camp in Labrador. ~hat does not mean that simply because charges have not been laid that abuses have not been prevalent because of the large expanse o£ land that is involved and also because of the shortages of personnel in that part of Labrador and in that part of Newfoundland as a part of a total management area. ~·IR. NEARY : It is a slur on everybody up there . MR. C.

POWER: No, it is not a slur on everybody up there. \vhat I am saying is that in Labrador, as in other parts of Newfoundland,it is extremely difficult to manage a wildlife resource where you have a fantastic amount of pouching, where you have a terrible amount of land to cover, and you only have a small amount of personnel to do that enforcement. In Labrador that problem is compounded by having a much larger area and open area. And all I am saying to the member is that we are going to review every single year those leases that we have and the licences that we give to operate camps in Labrador.

We think it is a perfectly fair and sensible way to manage that resource and that is what we are going to continue to do. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for St. Barbe. MR. BENNETT : I yield. MR. SPEAKER: If t'he hon. member '.vishes to yield, the hon. member for Eagle River. t1R. E. HISCOCK: Can the Minister of Lands and Forest (Mr. C. Power) info~ this House if the 775~:.

December 12, 1980 Tape No.2904 RA - 1 MR. HISCOCK: Canadian Armed Forces will have their lease renewed on the review if there is no breach of regulations ? ~he government, will they have it renewed next year? MR. SPEAKER(Simms~ The hon. Minister of La!!ds and Forests. MR. C. EOWER: Mr.

Speaker, as I said in the answer to the initial question that question is being examined by the department responsible for wild- life management, they ~ill make a recommendation to our department responsible for Crown land shortly after the New Year. vle will then notify the Canadian Armed Forces as to whether their lease is to be extended or continued or their licenses granted. .MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for St. Barbe . HR. T. BENNE~T: Thank you,Hr. Speaker. Hy question is directed to the Hinister of Transportation (Hr. Brett) 1 1·1r. Speaker.

Do I understand from the Minister there will be no snow clearing assistance for small communi ties around the Province this forthcoming ':'7inter, no assistance from ·ro• _, .. :1epartment for snow clearing? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Trans- portation. 1-'!R. C. BRETT: That is in cases of town councils, Mr. Speaker, only, \'/here there are town council,;, they have to make their own arrangements. In the case of c~mmunity council's,we will still continue to do it; the only thing is that there is a little bit difference in the grant system.

In other years the snow clearing grant tc c~rnmunity c.ounciJs was turned over to the Depart- ment of Transporta~ion. And ren~r~less of what it cost, 7 7 5 c,

December 12, 1980 Tape No. 2904 RA - 2 MR. C. BRETT: if the grant did not cover it - if the grant vV'as $5,00(' and the snovv clea·ring was $SO,OOO,well,you know, there was no bill sent out. But this year the grants are going to the community Council that is the difference. And there is going to be a little bit of a screw up in the bookkeeping but. we will still be doing the snow plowing in places where there are community councilS but we are not getting involved with the ~own CouncilS, t.own Councils have been advised to make their own arrange­ ments. ~-1R. S:EIE1\.KER; (Simms): member for St. Barbe. MR. T.

BENNETT: A supplementary. The hon. There is a fair amount of con- cern being displayed by t~wn councils, Mr.

Speaker, who find it difficult to make arrangements to have their own snow clearing equipment either purchased or hired in the local area and it has been suggested to me that they mav not get the co-operation of your departmen~ Mr. :Hnister, and that your departrrent might just pass right by their door "'ithout being available to do snow clearing necessary in the community. ~nd where these people can­ not, mind you 1 take out heavy loans now with high interest rates and all the rest of it1 tney are a little bit afraid that they are not_ qoinq to have tJ:eir communi ties opened up.

So I am wondering just how much co-operation is going to be forthcoming with regards to the 'cowns, I"\ot necessarily only the communi ties but a town it­ self, too. And I think primarily of towns in my district, for arguments sake Port au C..'J.oix and Port Saunders. these towns now have to get into big heavy equipment, which they can ill-afford,while you have equipment passing by their doorstep every day 775F1

December 12, 1980 Tape No. 2904 RA - 3 MR. T. BENNETT: when it is in service and it leaves a little bit to be desired as far as these people are concerned,Mr. Minister. 7757

December 12,1980 Tape No. 2905 AH-1 MR. BRETT: Yes, Hr. Speaker, I realize that there may be some difficulty in small towns that have town councils because of their tax structure. I realize that. But it is my understanding that the grant structure has been changed and that they are receiving more money for Winter maintenance and it does not necessarily mean that they have to buy snow clearing equipment. They can do the same thing that this department does.In many cases in small communities they -can rent snm" clearing equipment. That does not necessarily mean that they have to buy it.

I ~l­ edge the fact that these smaller towns are going to have some difficulty. I agree because I have it in my own district. You get a small community with a population of three or four hundred people and they have a town council and they just have not got the tax base;and it will be difficult , but with the increase in the g~ant they will have to rent. We will co-operate where we can but we have geared up not to plow in town council areas and we will be sticking to that. MR.SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minist~r of Justice, Sir.

Would the minister indicate if the director of EMO, if that position has become redundant,as I think it should,or does the minister intend to fill that position and,if so,would the hon. gentleman indicate when the appointment will be made? MR. SPEAKER: of Justice. The hon. the Minister HR. OTTENHEH1ER: Mr. Speaker, we certainly do intend to fill the post . There were ad vertisements some time ago and there will be an appointment early in the ~e w Year. 775R

December 12,1980 Tape No. 2905 AH-2 HR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr . Speaker. ~R.SPEAKER (Simms): A supplementary. The han. member for LaPoile. MR.NEARY: Would the hon. gentleman indicate whether or not - the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer)-whether or not it would be - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I would like to remind visitors to the gallery that they are not allowed to participate in any way by talking, clapping, <2tC. The hon.member for LaPoile.

HR.NEARY: Will the recommendations of the Public Service Commission dictate the appointment, number one, on the top of the list,or will the minister make his own appointment to this position? MR.SPEAKER: The hon.Minister of Justice. ~IR. OTTENHE !HER: Mr.

Speaker, the post was acvertised through the Public Service Commission and in the normal procedure the Public Service Commission makes a number of recommendations in specific order and althouoh that is not binding on the government or on a departrnent 1 it is 0ur intention in making the appointment to observe the order recommended by those who were interviewed and applied. MF..NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. ~F.. SPEAKER: A final supplementary. The hon.mernber for LaPoile. MR.!'JEARY: Would the minister indicate if local preference will prevail in this matter?

And would the han. gentleman indicate if he has the recommendations already on his desk? 775Q

Dece.i'.ber 12 , 1980 Tape No. 2905 AH -3 ~~.SPE~~ER (Si~~s) : The hon. Minister of Justice . ~!R. 0TTENHEH1ER : Mr . S~eaker. I have seen the recommendations in terms of , you know, local pre=erence . Would that apply or not? I do not think on e give s a si~ple yes or no answer to that . For exa~ple, just ~o giv e some examples and not necessarily relating them to any person - right?- you could have a Canadian who has lived in Newfoundland, let us say,for ten years ,his chiidren go to school here, he has been here for ten years . ~1R . NEARY : An RCMP officer. ~1R.

OTTENHEIMER : It could be an RCi-1P of= icer, it could be a customs officer , it could be somebody in ?rivate business , it could be a civil servant: . MR. NEARY : Right on . I have the ans,.,.er now . ~A-~. OTTENHEIMER: \~ould the hon. gentleman let me finish? I think myself it \-IOuld be quite unfair then to say that local preference that that man or · . .,.oman is not a Newfound lancer . So \ve do not intent to, you know, re-::r'.lit an .~fghanie 7 7 c; f1

.. December 12, 1980 Tape 2906 EC - 1 MR. OTTENHEIMER: or any fine citizens from, you knm11, different parts of the world, but our understanding of local preference is one which does not preclude as a Newfoundlander somebody who was not born in Newfoundland, but a person who has substantial connections in Newfoundland is, I think, justly and properly regarded as a Newfoundlander. MR. NEARX: Now I can tell you who is going to get the job. I can tell you who is going to get the job now. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): · The bon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. MR.

OTTENHEHIER: Like ir. the offshore regulations (inaudible) it says that it is two years. MR . SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. the member for v<indsor - Buchans. HR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Development (Mr. Windsor).

I wonder if the minster would tell the House whether or not the reduction that was applied to the building lots owned by Newfoundland and Labrador Housing around the Province 1 and specifically the one in Windsor where eighty-one lots have been there for six years and not one lot sold, would the reduction -f:h;ot he announce0 over a month ago have had any effect on their saleability? Have lots been sold as a result of that reduction? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Development. HR. WINDSOR: No, Mr. Speaker, it had no effect whatsoever, simply because it was subject to budgetary provisions. If the hon.

House provides us the funding in next year's Budget, then it will be effective, as I stated, at that time when the funding is made available by the House. 7 "'7 .. -1 I 0 I

December 12, 1980 Tape 2906 EC - 2 MR. ~HNDSOR: It obviously would not have had any effect up to this point in time. MR. FLIGHT: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. the member Is the minister confirming that there have been no lots sold in any of those communities as a result of the 10 per cent reduction the minister announced, and the whole purpose was to move the lots so that Newfoundland and Labrador Housing could stop paying interest and all the re~t keeping the lots going up? Not one lot has been sold as a result of the reduction?

HR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Development. MR. WINDSOR: Obviously, ~x. Speaker, if the reduction does not take effect until the lst of April,or at whichever point in time the hon. House approves funding through the Housing Corporation to reduce the price of those lots, then the lots are not going to sell until that time. But there have been a lot of enquiries as to - MR. NEARY: \\Then did you make the announcement? MR. WINDSOR: We made the announcement, Mr.

Speaker, to answer this question from over there, ~'e made the announcement so that people would be aware that the lots prices have been reduced, that they can make their plans and that they will be in a position to start construction first thing in the Spring. The lots will be made avaiable just as soon as we can in the Spring depending on budgetary approval. MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final sup~lementar y , the hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Would the minister indicate r,;hether or not the buying public, the people who li ve in the var ious 7 7 6?

December 12, 1980 Tape 2906 EC - 3 ~R. FLIGcT : communities where t.'le announce.rnent on t."'ese lots has 'b een ::-.ade that there \..rould be a r:e<iuc1:ion, have shown any interest iu buying lots when the programme comes in to effect, based on the size of reduction that has been of fered by the minister? ~ffi. SPE.~R (Si~s): ~!R . ~iDIDSOR : Th~ hon . the ~ini s1:er of Developme~t. Yes, :O!r. Speaker, t.l'tere have bee .n a tremen<i9us number of en~~iries .

I cannot indicate exactly hO\v many enquiries ••e have had in relation to each part:.cular subdivision or each particular municipality, but there has been a great deal of interest expresse<i as a result o= the subsidy . MR . FLIGHT: ~ :inal sunolementary, ~!r . Soeaker. MR . 'SPEAKE..q : I had indicated a final supple.rner.tary but: t!'le o1:her t:·IO :nembers have asked questions. The hon . the member for Nindsor - Buchans . l".R .

FL IGRT: I wonder if the minister would advise the Rouse whet~er any of t.~ese enquir:.e s have been based on the fac t that the lots in Nabush were ::educed by 50 per cent while the lots in communities like i·iind .sor were only 77 o'"1

December 12, 1980 Tape No. 2907 EL - 1 MR. FLIGHT: reduced by ten per cent?c'!ere any of the inquiries as a result of that and based on that kind of desire for people to know • . .,rhy? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The bon. the Minister of Develop- ment.-MR. WINDSOR: A most unusual question, Mr. Speaker. If the hon. gentle~an is asking me were there any questions on that, no,not to me directly other than the ques­ tion which the bon. gentleman put to me here in the House of Assembly two weeks ago and I made three attempts to try to explain it to him.

Perhaps if he does not understand it he can put it on the Order Paper and I will t=y to put it down in ABC so that he can understand the answer. ~..R. STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER: Opposition. A supplementary, Mr.Speaker. The hon. the Leader of the MR. STIRLING: A supplementary to that same question.

In view of the fact that the announcement has been made and people can make a start in the Spring, will the minister consider allowing people now,because since the government does control the budget and there is no question it is going to go through, will you now pre-sell so that people will know in advance that they can get those lots and finally pay for them in April so that they can now know which lot that they have, that the the lots can be sold, that the ordering can be done and that people will not be guessing and having to line up in April? Would the minister consider that? MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Develop- ment. ~. NINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, no I would not consider trying to nre-guess what the hon. House of Assemblv will approve or will not approve although I am very pleased to hear 776i.t

December 12, 1980 Tape No. 2907 EL - 2 MR. WINDSOR: an indication from the Leader of the Opposition's statement that the Opposition will indeed support that part of the budget. I am glad to see that they understand that this is an extremely valuable programme and a very worthwhile one. We cannot pre-sell the lots at that price until the House gives the Housing Corporation the auth­ ority to reduce the lot prices.

Obviously we car~ot do that, but when the lots do go on sale they will go on sale in the · normal manner, the sale date will be advertised and every- body will be given equal opportunity to make purchase bids. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : .The time for Oral Questions has expired. ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR tvHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Develop- ment. 9 MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the answer to a question from the han. member for Torngat Moun- tains (G.Warren), question No. 45 on the Order Paper of yesterday.

Not twenty-four hours ago, Mr.Speaker, that is performance. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WINDSOR: The question was ,'has the Provincial Government made a decision regarding a financial grant that has been requested by CN for the construction of the St.John's svnchrolift? Secondly, could the minister advise what was the amount of the grant that was requested?" To properly answer these questions it is necessary to briefly summarize the efforts over the past few years of Newfoundland Dockyard Limited, a subsidiary of CN, to construct a>vnchrolift at its St. John's operation.

These efforts have been suppor~ed by the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador since the beginning. In ~79, an accord had been reached between the Federal Government and CN whereby the Federal Jovernrnent had approved a contribution of up to $15 million in 1978 dollars. i I,...­ I I 0'"'

December 12, 1980 Tape No. 2907 EL - 3 MR. WDlDSOR: By way of a letter dated June 20th., 1980, a submission dated June 26th of 'BO,Mr. Armstrong of CN Holdings made a proposal for the Department of Industry Trade and Commerce. 775~

December 12, 1980 Tape No. 2908 SD - 1 ·, MR. N. ''IINDSOR: The proposal was based upon a review by federal officials which suggested that the cost estimate could be reduced to $21 million through modifications and other cost savings and that the federal government's authorized spending limit was then $18.5 million in 1980 dollars. In

summary, the proposal was that the federal government provide $18.5 million at 11 per cent interest rate for twenty-five years through the Department of Industry, Trade and Commerces with a balance up to $2.5 million to be raised by ·CN. Of the $18.5 million, 65 per cent or $12 million is guaranteed to be repaid to the federal government by CN. If the annual proftt of the Newfoundlandoockyard over the twenty-five year term exceeds $300,000, 25 per cent of the excess will then be applied against the outstanding $6.5 million.

Timing on the project was critical as further delays could result in the loss of a possible 100 to 200 new jobs at the dockyard and risks the present 330 jobs. While no official response to CN's proposal was received, in late July the Minister of Revenue announced publicly that the reasons for delay were related to the Province's Commission of Inquiry to Marystown Shipyard Limited and the problems were with receiving a long-term Russian contract. After careful analysis both arguments were strongly refuted by the han. the Premier at a public statement dated August 5th, 1980.

At the same time it was made known that the Province was making an offer of financing in order to avoid any further delay of this vital project. After =urther discussions with CN officials the han. the Premier in a letter dated August 15th, 1980, to Mr. C. F. Armstrong, President of CN Holdings confirmed the Province's willingness to provide a financial package for the synchrolift.projec~ which would allow CN's f~nancial 7 I r-_ -: I I CJ I

December 12, 1980 Tape No. 2908 SD - 2 MR. C. POWER: pos.ition to remain the same as projected in its proposal to the Department of Industry, Trade, and Commerce. The Province's offer was conditional u~on achievement of a timely and suitable accord between CN and the Government of Canada to ensure a~ early start on the project and to enhance its future viability. Since then considerable time has been spent by CN in negotiati~g transfer of ·the required land from other federal agencies. I understand scme satisfactory arrangements have recently been made.

Unfortunately, despite several requests by CN and representation by the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador, the federal government has not responded formally to allow CN permission to proceed with this very critical and vital project. MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) Any further answers to questions? PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. C. POWER: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to present a petitio~ on an extremely contentious and important issue as it relates to my district which is, of course, ar.. inshore fishing district that runs from Petty Harbour to Cappahayden and includes, I guess, as many as 500 to 600 fishermen and as many as 1,600 to 2,000 plant workers. I guess, we have nine processing units, primary processing plants in mv district and one for caplin and squid, so we have ten units processing cod and other fish species. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. C.

POWER: Well, they have a licence for squid and caplin, that is a start, I guess. Mr. Speaker, this 9etition is an extremely important one from our point of vie'.v being a totally inshore fishing district. I would just like to read 7 7 6 ,q

December 12, 1980 Tape No. 2908 SD - 3 ~1R . C • POI\TER : the prayer of this petition. It says, 'We, the undersigned bona fide fishermen - as many as 500 signed this petition - of the Southern Shore of Newfoundland denounce and bitterly Protest the issuance of licences for the purpose of pair trawling and inshore 7 7 6 1]

December 12,1980 Tape No. 2909 AH-1 MR.POWER: dragging in the area designated 3L. It is obvious that no consideration was given to this matter when licenses were issued since the breeding and feeding grounds of cod and other species of fish once torn up and mutilated will result in almost immediate destruction and depletion of the stocks in the areas affected. If this were to happen,the effects on fishermen, their families, local fish plant workers and their f&~ilies would be drastic. At the present time there are ten boats licensed for inshore dragging that would be operated in the 3L area.

This can increase in a very short time if other boats decide to move into the area during the corning fishing season. One such dragger is adequate to cause the destruction mentioned above and thus put out of business the balance of fishermen who are now earning their living from the cod trap , longline and inshore trawling methods. In other words,the livelihoods of thousands of fishermen is being jeopardized for the sake of thirty or forty. This is a situation that must be recognized and rectified forthwith. We trust it \vill." This petition, Mr.

Speaker, is one as I say is difficult to emphasize the importance of to our district of Ferryland where we have almost a total inshore fishery and I suppose the only primary production 1 with the exception of a couple of sawmills in the area, the only primary producer along the whole stretch of coastline between St. John's and Trepassey is the inshore fishery, almost all conducted with thirty-five foot boats and less.

To allow our inshore draggers to come into that area can be totally destructive.And as it has now happened where there are two licenses in Trepassey and a third one corning to my area of Ferrneuse this year corning up 1 and as many as seven or eight others licensed - and it seems to be for 7 7 7 il :

,. December 12,1980 Tape No. 2909 AH-2 ~R. POWER: some strange reason in the federal Department of Fisheries licensing system that there is no limit set on the number of inshore dragging licenses that they can give out. We cannot seem to get a word on it, yes, that ten would be the maximum because they say that the eleventh or the twelfth or thirtieth or the fortieth person comes in and ask for a license then we hav~ no, I suppose, alternative but to give those licenses.

It is _a clear indication, Mr.Speaker, were the Government of Canada and the federal people who are responsible for licensing are going to have to consult with somebody in Newfoundland about what they are doing in the fishery. Now that consultation,if they do not want it to be with the provincial government,which maybe has a different political stripe- AN HON. ME!>!BER: (Inaudible) the f i sherrnen. MR. POWER: - maybe they do not want to get along with the government in Newfoundland. That is one issue.

But somebody in Ottawa, in this licensing system especially where it relates to inshore draggers in my district, somebody in Ottawa has got to be - or in Moncton or someplace else has qot to come along our coastline and ask either the fishermen themselves of the representatives , I guess, the union itself or Mrs Payne from the - AN HON. ME!>!BER: The wives,yes. MR.

POWER: The wives for the rights of inshore fishermen,who had an important role to flay in getting this petition circulated through the wives of fishermen along my coastline, that somebody in Ottawa is going to have to start talking to somebody in ~ewfoundland about we do in the fishery. AN HON.MEMBER: The other way around. ~1R. POvvER: And the other way around. We are more than willing to talk. I represent these 7 7 7 ·1

December 12,1980 Tape No . 2909 AF. -3 ~ - ?01'/c:R : fishe~en in the provinci~l :iouse of Asse:ncly anc certai:ll:t :-1rs. Payne represen::s t.i1e \vives of t:te fishermen , the union who represe~1:s the :ishermen themselves,and the :ninisters and the gover~~en1: who represents the total oackage in ~ewfoundland are •.Yilling to discuss with Otta\.,a these type s of f?roblems that we are having But again it is a matter of being given the opportunity to consult . And in this ca se, i-'hat peopl e mus1: realize is that an inshore dragger that comes along our coastline can 777?

December 12,1980 Tape No. 2910 AH-1 11R. POWER: do a tremendous amount of damage to the point,in fact,of destroying what we now have as 2,000 people making a living from a total inshore fishery where we could have as few as eight or ten of these boats employing four or five persons each and you could destroy the livelihood of certainly several hu~dreds of fishermen and their families and probably many plant workers as a result. Mr.

Speaker, it is certainly a pleasure to go along any part of our coastline during the Fall, in the Renews Rock area,a~d see absolut~ly hundreds of fishermen out doing an inshore fish:::ry and making good money. But these inshore dragging licenses can destroy this fishery completely aiong our coastline. It is not the only problem we have.

We have many other problems that somebody in Ottawa, where no fish is caught,or in Moncton where, I guess, ther~ is not a lot of fish caught eitherr that somebody in those places who responsible for the management of our fisheries are going to have to start taking their heads out of the sand and start consulting with the people in Newfoundland who really know something about the fishery and until that is done then we are going to continue to have these types of problems which will put the lives of all of our fishermen and their families in jeopardy. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR.SPEAKER (Simms): Any further petitions? The hon. member for Burin- Placentia West. MR.HOLLETT: Mr. Speaker, it is with pleasure that I have the opportunity to rise aaain this morning. Number one, Mr.Speaker, I would like to apologize to all members of the House fer getting upset over a fisheries related matter. I guess in all fairness it was not a fishery related matter I got upset over but it was because the hon. minister took t1venty minutes to make a four 7 7 7 :1

December 12,1980 Tape No. 2910 AH-2 MR. HOLLETT: MR. SPEAKER: M.t<. . HOLLETT: minute Ministerial ~tatement . Order, olease! 'l'hank you, Mr. Speaker. But also I would like to support the prayer of this petition and the principle. I think it really points out the problems that we have in this Province apropos the fishery. Hr. Speaker, the hon. member i~ presenting the petition referred to pair trawlers, inshore trawlers,and"did not really refer to offshore trawlers which I suggest are also involved. But , Mr.

Speaker, because of the geography of our country, the hon. member's riding is right in the navigation line of every Canadian, Hainland, Newfoundland deep-,ea trawler, mostly foreign trawlers,and today with the sophisticated equipment that we have, the sonar, if there areenough fish there to shoot away for the trawler, they will do it, on a foggy night, a dark night, en a day when it is too sto:ony for the inshore fishermen to get out. Now, Mr. Speaker, I know the hon. member's district fairly well and I really ~elieve that there has to be at least a boxed-in area. They are very short, Mr.

Speaker, on what I refer to as inshore fishing grounds; if you look at the shoals and the rocks and the banks, a very small amount. And I think there has to be a boxed-in area. And, Mr. Speaker, in all fairness also I cannot support all 3 L saying all 3 L because, Mr. Speaker, starts at Cape St. Francis. it goes East approx~~ately 250 miles, South to about 70 miles South cf Cape Race, West towards Placentia Bay and into and including Cape St. :'-!ary' s. Mr. Speaker, this also includes a large portion '77L I

December 12, 1980 Tape 2911 EC - 1 MR. Hnrr~~~· of where our Newfoundland deep sea fleet catches a large portion of its fish. So, once again, as the hon. the minister mentioned, he said, 'Somebody has to do something about it.' Mr. Speaker, I would like to be more specific on the 'somebody' and I would like to suggest it is about time, Mr. Minister, that we in this Province show by example that we a!e the 'somebody'. I think it is time for us to prove we are entitled to shared jurisdiction. I think it is about time that we ensure we make an input in everything that happens to the fisheries in the Province.

Now, Mr. Speaker, if we do nothing else for 1981, I think we should all declare a moratorium on playing politics with fishermen and fish. SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hear, hear! M.q. HOLLETT: And I, as spokesman for fisheries on this side on behalf of my colleagues, will commit them. I will commit them that we will not play politics with fish if all other hon. members would do likewise. AN HON. ~.EMBER : (Inaudible) oil. MR. HOLLETT : No, I am not worried about oil. Oil is only secondary. When I am gone the oil will be gone and there will still be fish, hon. member. AN HON. MID-lBER: That is all - MR.

HOLLETT : And by the way, Mr. Speaker, he is not allowed to speak, he is not in his chair. Mr. Speaker, in all seriousness, I think it is about time. Because the hon. the Minister of Lands and Forests (Mr. Power) brought up a point so terribly important; he is talking about conflict of gear, he is talking about the future of the Province, a region of the Province, a renewable resource and everything else, and I am happy he did. I am glad to support the principle and I will do whatever I can to 777S

December 12, 1980 Tape 2911 EC - 2 MR. HOLLETT: ensure that people, in that area, and their children are assured of a bright future. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the Minister of Fisheries . 1-!R. MORGAl'l": Mr. Speaker, in speaking on the petition, which I discussed briefly a couple of days aqo with Mrs. Payne in connectionwlth the concerns in that area of my colleagu~'s district, first of all I have to say that nobody is playing politics with fishermen.

If playing politics, in response to the Opposition spokesman, means putting forward the views and concerns of thousands of fishermen, that is, putting forward their concerns to the provincial Department of Fisheries, well, if that is playing politics, ehat is the way it will be forever if we have to put forward the concerns of the fishermen, such as these fishermen here in Ferryland. Puttinq forward our concerns, if that means playing politics, it will be played.· Now, Mr.

Speaker, consultation is the key and the hon. gentleman said that we should make it quite clear where the authority lies for these kinds of problems. The fact is, my predecessor, if I recall, put forward the proposal to rectify these kinds of problems. I am not sure if it was this specific area of the Province, but I know in other areas of the Province, one of them being my own, the Bonavista Peninsula- my predecessor, Mr. Carter, asked the federal government - and in fact, I followed up as the new minister after he left the department, along the same lines - asked the federal minister (~r. LeBlanc) 7776

Declllillber 12,1980 MR.MORGAN: Tape No. 2912 AH-1 to establish buffer zones to protect draggers - we call them small draggers, they are medium size because they are longliners actually with draggers licenses. The hon. gentleman got confused where the problem lies~ it is not with the offshore draggers, it is with these small boats with dragging licenses. in this case approximately twenty to thirty licenses of that type.

And the inshore fishermen, the cod-trap fishermen, the hand-line fishermen,are asking that the problems they are having with these twenty or thirty boats, action be taken to prevent that kind of a problem, It is not the offshore large boats or trawlers. So· , Mr. Speaker, we will again follow up with the federal minister and ask again that buffer zones be established to protect the inshore small boat fishermen from these boats who are holding draggers licenses.

And I will follow up along the same lines again now and ask the federal minister to look at this area in particular,looking at the fact that fishermen have spoken, they put forward their views accordingly, they want this done, they want some action taken ann the action can be taken by Ottawa and hopefully itwillbe. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Thank you, Mr.Speaker. Hear, hear! ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. MARSHALL: Order 34. Order 34. Second reading of a bill, "An Act Respecting The Assessment Of Real Property And The Imposition And Collection Of Certain Taxes In The City Of St.

John's ., (Bill No. 84) Debate was adjourned by the hon. member for Carbonear. The hon.member for Carbonear. 7 7 7 7

December 12,1980 MR. MOORES: SOME HON.MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MR. MOORES: Tape No. 2912 AR-2 Thank you, r-Ir. Speaker . Oh, oh! Order, please! I think perhaps it is necessary, Mr. Speaker, in winding up my comments on this bill presently before the House,that I repeat a number of the major objections that we as anOpposition have to this piece of legislation. First of all,let me say to the minister that I cannot support this · bill. I cannot and I will not support it.

And my understanding from my caucus is that we are not going to support it and if necessary we will continue to raise objections to this legislation for as long as possible until we,as responsible members of this Legislature,can be assured that the government of this Province or the City of St.

John's,or both,can assure us that the money, the thirty-six per cent presently levied on the landlord-tenant relationship in this city , unless that money can be returned cash-in-hand to the tenants who will be affected , positively affected by the change to the capital value system in this city, unless we can be assured that this government or the City of St. John's is prepared to take legislative action to protect these tenants, that we are not prepared to support this legislation. Because if we did - and I should point out to the minister 777R

December 12, 1980 Tape No. 2913 SD - 1 MR. R. MOORES: that the principle of the legislation is good. We are not objecting to the basic principle of the legislation. Any legislation which intends to better equalize the tax burden within a city or a municipality or a province or whatever, any legislation that intends to do that we cannot object to . But at the same time you cannot expect us as thinking individuals, as responsible members of this Legislature, to let you do something fair with your left hand and something unfair and irresponsible with your right.

Those are not consistertt, those are not compatible and I am disappointed that the minister would allow herself to be aligned ·vith legislation of this sort that has taken no action in itself to protect the tenants in this city who are about to be robbed,literally robbed,of the 36 per cent savings that will incur from this legislation. It may not be totally 36 per cent but the point is until it is proven otherwise, there will be a substantial saving to the tenant. And it is my opinion that the onus is upon the landlord to prove that he needs the money. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. r1R. R.

MOORES: It is not,as the Landlord-Tenants Board says, the onus upon the tenant to bring forth an objection to the Board for a ruling. That is not the way our system works,nor should it work that way. You have 6,000 to 8,000 tenants and you have four or five profiteering landlords in this city. AN HON. MEHBER: Hear, hear. MR. R.

MOORES: And I might say for the most part, unscruplous landlord~ because I have been renting in this city myself now for the better part of a decade, I have been paying rent to one landlord or another including a number of the major ones that I mentioned by name here yesterday, and you never get a fair break from them. All they are 777Q !-

December 12, 1980 Tape No . 2913 so - 2 ~1R . R . t-!OORES : in this business for is a fast buck ;;..nd :nany of them 1 through no fault, .by the '"ay- or I shou ld say p~rhaps with lots of fault to this government, many of them have made a fast buck in the last few years particularly. MR . S. NEARY : 11R. R. ~CORES : Right on , right on . That is the major objection to this bill . There are a number of others, 77Hn

December 12, 1980 Tape 2914 EC - 1 ~~. R. MOORES: perhaps more rhetorical than substantial, but this is the major objection and we cannot permit it to go through, because to do so would be acquiescing in bestowing upon the tenants in this city unfair legislation, an unjust piece of legislation. And we need not do that.

All that the government has to do, all that the minister has to recommend to her colleagu~s, is that a clause be placed into this bill, an amendment accordingly, in third reading, that the landlord must return the savings difference between what the capital value tax w~ll give to the tenant as compared to the old rental value system - MR. NEARY: Hear, hear~ MR. MOORES: - cash in hand. And then, if the landlord wants an increase in rent, let him go to the landlord/tenants board and present his case - simple, very unassuming and just as fair as the basic principle of the bill.

So all that the minister would be doing in recommending this amendment is to be consistent with the basic principle of the bill, which is to spread the tax burden in the city evenly amongst all of the people, or as evenly as possible. There are a number of other objections, Mr. Speaker, that I have, and I say to you quite frankly they are probably more rhetorical than substantive. And I do not say that in any way, taking from the criticism itself. I do not like the idea of the City Council not having the courage and the fortitude to bring this matter before the people prior to the 1981 general election.

That, to me, does not show much leadership. That, to me, does not show much conviction to a cause, a principle that is supposed to be so basic and fair. And some of these city councillors seem to think that the sun shines from their heads. Well, that is perhaps because 7 7 8 1

December 121 1980 Tape 2914 EC - 2 :-IR • .t-tOORES: they like circumventing an issue rather than going to the people directly wich 1t . I menti.oned yesterday 1 l)o!r. Speaker 1 the discriminatory action of this government as seen on dozens of different occasions since I came into chis House five years ago, where the City of St . John 's is given privileges that no other municipality or no other communi~y in this Province is given . Rere they are now given a 778? "7

December 12, 1980 Tape No. 2915 SD - 1 MR. R. MOORES: five year opportunity, from 1982 until 1987, five years in which to phase in the taxation burden and the argument, of course, is a good one, the argument is right that any economic impact of this nature. impact that will increase taxation substantially should be phased in so as to lessen the impact on the tax~ayer.

Fine, no problem, I have no problem of ratio~~lizing that, none a·c aL_ • But I· do have a proble":'. rationalizing why the town of Carbonear, a town of 8,000 people, three years ago when the now Premier of this Province was the Minister of Municipal Affairs. was told unequivocally that•you must impose a $144 a year taxation rate on your water.' To some, particularly those on fixed incomes, senior citizens and the like, it meant in some cases a 300 per cent increase-but no phase-in.

In fact, I was at the town council meeting and raised the objection at that time when the now Premier of the Province was in attendance and he said, 'No phase-in period, You do it r..mv or this government will seriously review your capital grants for the upcoming year2' But when it comes to the eight seatq ~y the way, Carbonear at that time.as it is now was a good Liberal seat - but here in the city of St.

John's where you have eight or nine, actually nine, city seats, all PC, and you have nin~ councillors, seven of whom are aspiring or publicly committed PCs,'No problem at all, boys, phase it in over twenty years if you like, we will still give you your capital grants, we will still give you more than you deserve from the taxpayers of this Province.' There has been more pavement, ~r. Speaker, pl2~ed over pavement in the city of St. John's this year than has gone into the whole district of Carbonear in the last eight years.

Now, let me restate that, more pavement over ~avement than has gone into the entire dis~rict, ..., -; !"". - I I ['1 J,

December 12, 1980 Tape No. 2915 SD - 2 MR. R. MOORE'- · and if I might go a little further, my colleagues:rom Harbour Grace (Mr. H. Young) and Port de Grave (Hr. R. Collins), more pavement has gone down over pavement in St. John's than the whole of Conception Bay. Now you do not mind if St. John's needed the pavement, 7784

.. December 12,1980 Tape No. 2916 AH-1 MR. MOORES: if they were up to their knees in potholes and if the lives of people, sick people and the elderly were jeopardized by a lack of good roads, you would not mind that at all. I could see that. In fact, I might even get up in this House and support it ~ut you should see some of the roads in this city that were paved this year. It is unbelievable. They were in perfect condition in comparison to the Conception Bay Highway, perfect.

You could slice a diarnond 1 as they do in the advertisments on TV 1 you cut cut a diamond in the back seat of a Ford on the street, and they carne in with the paving equipment and put down another two inches and that type of discrimination, Mr. Speaker, is rampant and has been since 1972. The rural parts of this Province, the small communities" have been suffering immensely because of a negative influence in the Cabinet of this Province and in the government of this Province, a negative influence against rural Newfoundland in favour of the City of St. John's.

And I am not talking about the rhetoric we hear in the House of Assembly. I am talking when it comes down to a crunch, I am taking when it comes down to a synchrolift for the CN dockyard or the effect on Marystown. What was the editorial stance of the Evening Telegram on an issue like that? Naturally it was in favour of St. John's. What was the stance of the government of this Province? Naturally it was in favour of st. John's.

And the Premier of this Province, a pretentious ba~ - I say pretentious because he likes to pat himself on the shoulder and say he is a ba~- but when it comes right down to the crunch he knows where the votes are, he knows where the seats are in this Province, he knows where he has to place his influence and he knows what his decision must be, in favour of City Council. And here is the same 778S

December 12,1980 Tape ~o. 2916 AH-2 :01R. MOORES: thing he=e now, Mr. Speaker , in this bill, the gover nment of this Province and City Council have no intention of placing confinements on the landlords who will actually rob,and make no bones about it, actually going to rob the tenants who supply him with his bread and better. He will never qet the money, never get it cash -in-hand i= we hav e to rely u9on the legisla tiv e action of -this government or the City of St . John's . S0t-1E BON . MEMBERS : Hear,hear! MR.MOORES: .And do you know something, Mr .

Speaker, in talking to officials on all three leveis yesterday,it really does not :natter to them. They had one meeting with the Landlord Tenant's Co ard on the matter, City Council did, its ofzicials 77aR -

December 12, 1980 Tape 2917 EC - 1 MR. MOORES: and they carne to an agreement to disagree -or I should say an agreement to agree that there was nothing they were going to do. And that is a real tragedy, because the same city councillors will stand up with a halo ever their heads and they will say, 'You know, this legislation is our creation. It is our responsible response to the main criticism of the landlord and the ~enant in this city over the last decade. Now, here it is, and it took us ten years, boys, to get it to the House of Assembly. But here it is, and what a piece of legislation it is!

We are all so proud of this and we are all so happy that the property tax in this city will be changed to a capital value system.' Mr. Speaker, if I were asked my personal opinion on this as a citizen of Carbonear, I would say to you quite frankly, no bones at all, that I could not care less what goes on in St. John's, and I have been conditioned to that attitude because St.John's has been sucking the people of this Province dry for 150 years.

I am conditioned to that, because when I go to Carbonear and I see roads and I see public facilities and, you know, the whole range of government services being almost criminally neglected, I am conditioned to say that I do not care what goes on in St. John's. I do not live here. I am forced to live here for six months of the year, I am poisoned with the place, I do not want to live here. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. MOORES: And as long as I have that attitude - you know, I have to say I am being a bit pretentious myself this morning, because I am up here speaking as a tenant in this city.

I am speaking as a tenant and, you know, I really could not care less.Once I go out of here now in an hour or two, I will be on my way to Carbonear where 7787 <

December 12 , 1980 Tape 2917 EC - 2 MR. HOORES : I have a couple of functions , and i will go over and I will stay with my parents for the wea~end and I will traipse back in here on Monday morning over a frozen road that will not be sanded by the Department cf Transportation and Communications. MR. NEARY : Right on! MR . MOORES: I am liable to end up, you know, out in Spaniard's Bay h~xbour or something on the way along, and I will come back in to St. John 's and the roads \.;ill be just as clean, my boy , as you have ever seen them - lots of sal~, lots of sand. The people's money, the Province 's money - MR .

NEARY: and fire protection. MR . NOORES: Lots of police protection - Lots of police protection, =ire protection. My son, what a life they live in here,. and all on the taxpayers of the Province. You kn ow, you go up, Mr .S p ea~er - and I can go on, you know , for a '"'ee .k if anyone ~~ants to go for a coffee - I can go on for a week on this topic because I have been conditioned to it . I am not speaking in theory, I am speaking in fact . I have experienced it myself . And hen . members opposite will rise in their places and will say, 'Well, look at all the money we have 772A ~

December 12, 1980 Tape No. 2918 SD - 1 HR". R. MOORES: given to Carbonear and Lewisporte and St. Anthony and so on 1 and the ferry service from Fogo and they will go on and on and try to put it in dollar value.

And you go up and you have one intersection by the Holiday Inn that cost $1 million and now they are going to resurface all of Prince Philip Drive, they are going to put - well, talk about a reaction to an incident, an impulsive'reaction to an incident: when someone in Carbonear gets injured or killed or something, no talk about doing the roads or improving the sidewalks or anything else 1 but if it happens in St. Johh's,look out, boy! ~R. HODDER: They put them in jail out in Port au Port.. MR. R. MOORES: Look out~ They are liable to move the whole city. And there is the crux of the matter, Mr. Speaker. MR. F.

WHITE: But we are still standing up for the people in the city. MR. R. MOORES: Right on. I mean, the poor people in this city, I mean, are no different than the people in CarbonA'"'" MR. NEARY: But they are going to get the gaff now with this. MR. MOORES: You know, they are no different,In fact, of the 17 1 000 householdsthat will be affected by this change in taxation system,I would say 10,000 of them are former bayrnen, a minimum of 10,000. I know hundreds myself in :1ere from Carbonear alone - MR. NEARY: Here is one right here, look. MR. R.

MOORES: That is right, Including I have three sisters and two brothers.that is :~ve right off the bat. They are only simple people. It is the fraud that goes on,and I use that word in the general sense of the word, the fraud ~nd the - MR. NEARY: It is shameful. 77oq

!' Decembe r 12 , 1980 Tape NO . 2918 so - 2 MR . R. :.!OORES : - yes, t~ac gees on by petty politicians in this city, men, you know, that take !:hem outside of this city and they would not last that - loo~ . MR . S. N~ _qy: That is right . MR . R. MOORES : They would not ~ow what to do or ho:·: !:o ,...o about it Could not even catch a rabbit . could not even catch a rabbit, you know, there is just no substance there . Do noc MR . i:iODDER : MR . MOORE S: mind the =elevance . Th~s is a general bill ,this is . SOME HON . MEMBERS: vh , oh . MR .

MOORES : Now, let us get on with perhaps something more relevant , Mr. Speaker , and this is a litt le pet objection that I have had for years now. See, in 1968 when I ~as eighteen years old I missed gectin g elected to the Carbonear Town C ~~~c i ~ hv two votes, on l/ two 1and the like s of which had neve r been hea rd at that point . I do not th~nk there was a councillor in t~e Province under :i:t y. ~R . NEARY: Now, hold on ,now! hold or.l 77 4n --;:::

December 12, 1980 Tape 2919 EC - 1 MR. MOORES: I am being illustrative by suggesting that most of them were older people. The idea of a young person trying to get into politics, MR. NEARY: And I thouqht I was youns. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. MOORES: Two votes I missed by, pretty tqugh race beca~se How old were you?

I was about eighteen then. and at that time it was a Guy Earle, who was a very prominent, very respectable man, a very fine man for the community of Carbonear, died of a heart attack, and his brother, who later confronted me in 1975 as the P.C. candidate and whom I subsequently defeated, wanted the man of his choice in that seat, so I ended up losing by two votes. But anyway, Mr. Speaker, my point is one of the main planks of my election platform at that time was the taxation system and how it should be changed to better equalize the tax burden.

And one of the things that I objected to in present legislation, which was in effect then and is presently in effect, was the seizure of private property for the repayment of taxes. I never have agreed with it and never will agree with it, and if and when I become a member of a government in this Province, I will be recommending as ·best I can that this aspect of municipal legislation be thrown out. A city, a government of any kind in this country has plenty of opportunity through the courts, through attachment of wages and a number of other procedures to acquire debts that are owing.

If somebody pays me with a rubber cheque today, there are all sorts of procedures that I can use to reacquire my money. I perhaps never will, but there are all sorts of procedures that are provided to me. 7 7 91 ..

December 12 , 1980 Tape 2919 EC - 2 MR . MOORES : One of the pro cedures that I do not have is a power ope n to a government, and that is to seize property that cculd be worth a hundred times more than the taxe s owing and place that property up for auctio n just to ac quire a couple of thousand dolla=s . ~ow, I am not taL~ing about the slum landlords L~ this city or any to~n, the slum landlords who pocket ~,e money and reinv~st it and shamefully allow property to deteriorate and do not pay any t~xes on it . I am not talking about those people . That is :ine.

If ~~ou could single those people out in legislati~n , which you can do ·-t:his Legislature can do almost anything theoretically can 779?

December 12, 1980 Tape No. 2920 SD - l MR. R. MOORES: take a man's life - and if you cc>.n single out those slum landlords and say, well, look, in :ircumstances like this the courts can seize property or the government can seize it, but what I am talking about is a householder like myself, for instance} if I were to lose the upcoming election I could not even go on unemployment insurance. I do not pay in, w~ are not allowed to pay into unemployment insurance, so if I lost, if I had no savings or no other form of employment to go to right away, I would be without any money at all.

And ther~ are lots of people in this Province worse off than I would be in that case. If they lost their jobs, if they became sick or their wives became sick or there was a family tragedy of some sort where they could not afford to pay taxes, they would go to an incompassionate town council 1 to begin with,to put forth there argument and they would say '\-•1ell, boy, you kno•·r- t:axes are taxes and you have to pay them.' .1\nd inevitablv what hat)pens if that person cannot pay them is property,which is worth in some cases hundreds of times more than the taxes owing 1 can literally be seized.

I have never agreed with it and never will. It just simply should never be allowed in a society like ours. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. R.

MOORES: Let City Council go to the courts, attach wages, do whatever is necessary but do not take a man's property away from him. ~ecause if there is one thing in our British system of democracy that is almost primary to our e.xustence it is our property laws and our property rights A man's property is everything; taxes are somethina that came after, taxes were something that were contrived by governmeP-ts, In fact, for many, many, many years in England real F-roperty taxes were never allowed. I think it 1'las the Reform Bill of 1832 that set the stage for real property 779~ .;_

December 12, 1980 Tape No. 2920 SD - 2 NR. R. MOORES: taxes but it was fifty or sixty years later before they were even thought of. But in 779i.c

December 12, 1980 Tape 2921 EC - 1 MR. MOORES: the days of Walpole in England, real property taxes were forbidden. The taxes that t