I I l?ROPE;_u ,· P , : { :::c:~ 5 [ .~.' ;: Volume 2 LEG •c,r • •. , ·• '' .1.,.1.:..,J',. .-1. L \,1 ,_, \, \'· ,· .. , PLEASE RETURN \' t--_.1 NE:\Vi·-.)U,""[·1 \,\-.l~ \\ PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 2nd Session VERBATIM REPORT Tuesday, February 13, 1973 SPEAKER, THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL 0 •J ~I_B n _::.p._ ! --,,..., _ __,.-,.,.- ... -~ Number 3 f

February 13, 1973 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape no.42 Page 1 - HRW MR. SPEAKER: It is a pleasure for me to welcome to the galleries today a group of sixty-five students from St. Edward I s Regional High School, Bell Island. I understand that these students are studying history and the structure of government. I would like to welcome them to the galleries today and indeed any other visitors who are here and trust that your visit is most interesting and informative. MR. E. M. ROBERTS (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, may I raise a brief question of privilege?

Either myself or the hon. gentleman from Bonavista South may wish to do it. The early issues of today's (if 1 may be forgiven) St. John's "Evening Telegrmnn have a headline which says, "Liberal Backbencher Says Telegram Attacks Distasteful. 11 The only problem is the Liberal backbencher to which it refers is the hon. member for Bonavista South. I do not know whether he would want to have that title of Liberal or not but I can assure you, Sir, that on this side we are happy he is over there. Perhaps it could be noted, The later editions of the uTelegram" have scratched out the offending misnomer.

I know the honourable gentleman would want me to draw that to the attention of the House as well. We will .add it to the investigation then, Mr. Speaker. I accept ' 1 blankjj backbencher - an accurate description of him, MR. SPEAKER: I would also like to inform the honourable House that I have received the resignation of the now Minister of Mines and Energy who in the last session was Deputy Speaker. He has resigned his position as Deputy Speaker. HON. J, C. CROSBIE (Minister of Finance): Hr.

Speaker, I uould like to make a ministerial statement with reference to the Labrador Linerboard Limited employment practices. I know that the Leader of the Opposition 127

February 13, 1973 Tape no, 42 Page 2 Mr. CrosPie. will be interested in this. MR. ROBERTS: Are their copies made available? HR. CROSBIE: Yes, there will be a copy for that honourable gentleman. The employment practices of Labrador Linerboard at Steplwnville have once again come under heavy criticism, principally from Hayor Fowlow of Stephenville who is ostensibly campaigni.ng for employment opportunities for Bay St. George residents, ahead of any one. else in the province, The continuation 128

February 13, 1973 Tape No. 43 NM - 1 MR. CROSBY: of this campaign of destructive criticism and misrepresentation by Mayor Fowlow. It could be very damaging to the morale of the people now operating the linerboard mill at Stephenville, cause divisions and strife within the Bay St. George Community between old time residents and other Newfoundlanders now living in the area and as well interfere with the proper start up of the Stephenville mill.

The latest attacks of Mayor Fowlow result in allegations that the hiring practices at Labrador Linerboard Mill are 11 worse than ever 11 and that 11 there has not been any changes" since I,as the minister responsible for the linerboard mill project ,visited Stephenville on }{ovember 22, to meet with the committee of representatives from the town or community councils in the Bay St. George Area.

Following complaints from the liaison committee, I visited Stephenville to meet with them on November 22 and discuss with them in detail the dissatisfaction they expressed with certain of the methods used in the hiring of personnel for the operation of the linerboard mill. This dissatisfaction in essence was that not sufficient people from the Bay St. George area were being hired to fill positions available at the linerboard mill. The names they produced then and the allegations they made then were substantially the same with one or two additions to the names produced in the past week or so.

In other words, there is nothing new in the names they are producing now. Following a complete investigation into the hiring practices of Labrador Linerboard Limited by my Executive Assistant, Mr. Cochrane, who comes from the area, steps were taken to ensure that the general hiring policy at the mill was carried out, The general employment policy is and has been that first preference for employment at the mill should go to Newfoundland residents and that within this group, if applicants for employment have equal qualifications or abilities, then residents of the Bay SL George Area should be hired first.

Where people with the necessary skills cannot be obtained within this province, then recruitment from outside the province was in order and necessary. 129

February 13, 1973 Tape No. 43 NM - 2 HR.. CROSBY: It was admitted that there have been mistakes made in the sense that this policy have not been carried out prior to November in all cases~ Perfection cannot be expected jn any human endeavour and certainly could not be expected during a period when a tremendous effort had to be made to continue the project and to establish management and organization, all of which were completely lacking in May of 1972.

Thus for example some seventy-nine people were hired during the summer before the personnel office was functioning properly, since this hiring could not wait, Some of the mistakes with reference to local residents occurred during this period. As a result of this meeting with the liaison committee, steps were taken to ensure that our policy of preference for employment of personnel fro:n residents of B11y St. George, where such residents are qualified fnr the jobs nvnilable, were strictly adhered to. From November onwards 1where n job was tci be filled and the person recommended cmnr. from outside the Bny St.

George area, approvnl had to be obtained from my office so that we could ensure that a properly qualified person was not ohtainnhle for that position from the Ray St. George /orca and deciding on riunlificntior.s, we had to be guided by the expert opinion of our superintendents nr.d personnel office. As n result of this meetinr,.a definition was artreeJ on as to who vas a resident of the Hay St. George Area. A definition since November is that a resident of the nay St. George ,\rea, for this purpose, is n person who lived and resided i.n the Bay St.

Ceorge Area before construction of the mill bega11, in other words before Decernl1er 31, 1969. Since my visit to Stepenville on r:ovember 20, 1972, there hnv<"­ heen 120 persons hired who hnd no f1rm _ioh offers before my visit. Of these 120 persons, 111 were residents of Bay St. r.eorr:e,under the new definition, for n total of 92.5 per cent. The statistics are as follows: numher of jobs availnble,hourly paid workers - f30

Feburary 13, 1973 Tape 44 PK~ 1 as follows: the number of jobs available hourly paid workers,106; the number of Bay St. George residents hired,101, percentage 95.6; salaried 14; the number of Bay St. George residents,10, percentage 71.3 for a total of 111 out of the 120 or 92.5 per cent. We have all of the names, all available if anybody wants to look at them. In fact we will publish them I think. Why Mayor Fowlow should say that the situation is worst than ever for Bay St. George residents or that there have not been any chanp,es since my visit in November,I must leave to others to surmise.

In addition to these 120 persons hired since my visit on Novem'lrer 22, there were eleven hourly employees and ten salaried employees who had been given firm job offers before my visit hut who took up their jobs following my visit. Of these three of the salaried employees were from outside of the province because of their experience or technicial skills and one hourly paid employee was from outside of the province. The remainder were Newfoundlanders though not from the Bay St. George Area.

So these twenty-one who have been given johs hefore hut had not started 4 of them four were from outside of the province and seventeen from other parts of Newfoundland. The situation at Labrador linerboard mill with respect to employment is as follows; the total number employed to date have heen 524 hut of that 524, seventy are now laid off because of winter conditions. These are the log pond employees and other employees whose employment depends upon proper weather for outside work. Of the 524 - 320 are residents of Bay St.

George,under the definition - sixty-one per cent; 132 or twenty~five per cent are other Newfoundland residents and seventy-two or fourteen per cent are people who come to the mill from outside of this province, some of whom by the way are Newfoundlanders who had moved away a number of years ago and have now returned there to work. As I have said,Labrador Linerboard Limited does not claim to be perfect. There have been some mistakes in connection with hiring as there will always be in such a large enterprisea There have been some mistakes 131

February 13, 1973 Tape 44 PK - 2 with reference to the hiring of local residents but these were made prior to November 1972 for the most part. The mill will eventually create employment at Stephenville directly in the mill for between five and six hundred persons. The number of applications received for employment at the mill at Stephenville is 3600, including 664 from outside of the province, 1236 from Newfoundland outside of Bay St. George and 1762 from the Bay St. George Area~ Even if Labrador linerboard had been able to fill every single job witfi a Bay St.

George resident there would still be at least 1200 of those applicants from Bay St. George who could not receive employment at the mill. Naturally these people are disappointed. Vacancies will be occurring during the first year or so of the operation as present employees get promoted, resign or obtain hetter employment in other places. It is the intention of the ~overnment to give local residents priority if they have the needed qualifications. With respect to Canada Manpower,the Labrador linerhoard requested Canada Manpower to find people for 290 of the johs provided by the mill.

They sent for interviews 473 persons,and 232 of these were hired as a res.ult of those interviews. Let me make it very clear that Labrador Linerboard Limited has no intention whatsoever of dismissing any present employee for any grounds other than incompetence or factors associated with the rr.anagerial efficiency of the mill. No present employee "~ill be terminated because of residence before assuming 132

February 13, 1973 Tape 45 employment at the mill. The mill at Stephenville is now producing pulp and proceeding through the start up phase which requires all of the skill and effort of management and of the employees. It is extremely unfortunate at this very same period a determined campai~n is underway to harass, obstruct, vilify and damage the morale of a team built up to operate the mill. The Community of Stephenville should be receiving leadership that unites both the older residents in the Bay St George Area and the new, so that together they can build up the economic base of the Bay St George Community.

What Stephenville and the Bay St George Area now JM - 1 need is a successfully functioning and operating linerboard mill, commencing to earn a return on the tremendous investment of the people of Newfoundland in that mill. The leaders of the communities in the Bay St George Area are needed to join with Labrador Linerboard~ other business and community organizations to act jointly to promote the development of the harbour and other facilities of this area.

I now ask Mayor Fowlow and her committee to cease this damaging harassment and negative criticism of the linerboard mill at Stephenville and to join in efforts to promote the positive contribution of the mill and its personnel to the development of the Bay St. George Area. MR. ROBERTS: I suspect it is out of order but may I say a vord or two on this line of the minister's statementl All !ION. MEMBER: No. MR. ROBERTS: Well, if you want to cut me off ~they will not of course. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. leader is out of order. MR. ROBERTS: Yes, but I am asking consent and if they will grant it~fine. MR. SPEAKER: The hon.

Leader of the Opposition has consent. MR. ROBERTS: Well, Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. gentleman for his statement. I am not sure how much in it is new except for the figures 133

February 13, 1973 Tape 45 and that sort of information. I can tell him that I think that he has completely misunderstood the point of the position being taken by not just Mayor Fowlow but by Mayor McDonald of St. George's and by the chairman of the community councils of Port au Port East and Port au Port West, all four of whom met with me at their request last week in Stephenville. They accept without any hesitation first of all the JM - 2 need to make this mill operational and make it as successful as possible because of the terrific investment the people of this province have in it.

They also accept and I think would endorse wholeheartedly the hiring policy as annunciated by the minister. It is not new, it is the policy which has been agreed to and accepted for some time. What they are saying is that since the minister appeared in November and met with them they did not ask to have any people fired, not in my hearing, indeed quite the other way~ although I understand Mayor Fowlow has made staternents 7 certainly before she met with me possibly subsequently, to that effect. But I stress that at the meeting I attended there was no talk of that at all.

The concern is with the future* The committee's point, Mr. Speaker, and they have undertaken to supply me with details, is that even since the minister appeared there has not been adhered to this hiring policy which he outlined. Now I will not debate it now, Sir. There will be an opportunity in this session of the House.I can make certain of that and it will be completely debated then I hope, certainly by our side and I hope by the other side of this House. The point though is, Mr.

Speaker, that what these people are asking for is an independent investigation and I think they would not feel an investigation by Mr. James Cochrane is independent. Mr. Cochrane after all is investigating himself because,as the hon. the minister has just said,Mr. Cochrane is the official within his office who is responsible 134

February 13, 1973 Tape 45 JM ~ 3 for approving these hiring practises and then to ask that same gentleman to investigate whether these practises have been adhered to and everything is aboveboard and proper and according to the rulesJit is really not acceptable to the people out there. If the hon. ~entleman is concerned, and I believe he is, about the feelin~ in Stephenville 135

VfBRUARY 13, 1973, TAPE 46, PAGE l -- noh MR. ROBERTS: -------·- in the Bay St. Georr.e Area, about the fee.linis, morale and all these thinr:s. The probler:is are there and they are real. I hope he will undertake or -will mn.lre it possible to have an. independent investigation, be.cause, I submit from what I know at this stage, I might not know everythinr: hut J do kncrw something about it, Sir, that that is the only thin?,; that will satisfy these people. They do not feel that they have had fair treatment and I surgest. Sir, that an in-house investi17ation hy Fr.

James Cochrane, an enployee of the government and the min:i.ster 1 s assistant, is not poinp: to satisfy them at alL I will not p:o on, Sir. J thnnk the House for allowing me to say these few wnrds. 1 do look fon.rnr<l to the debating: of it, hecause I thin!: it is one of the more iwportant subjects which will be cominr, before the House. What they are nfter, }fr. Speaker, is an independent investigation. If the µ:overnment have nothing to fear, Sir, let them have the investigation. If they will not have it,they obviously have something to hide.

The minister has been bin enough to admit that there were mistakes made. I do not think that anyhody quarrels with that at all. I think people take hi.11' at his word and sny; ''fine.'' The problen is that since the 22nd. of November thev feel that there have st:ill been further errors, even within the past few dnys. They have p:iven me nnnes and they have given me Oates. Whether the information is accurate I do not know, but it has heen Jsiven to me in fcOOrl faith, What is needed is an independent investipa.tion and I hope the minister will make it possihlc. Only the government can make this possible.

We can try, but if it is not done it is because- the ~overnment have blocked it nnd the people out there will draw the conclusion inevitahly and inescapably that the government have sornethinf? to hide if they do not allow an :i.ndenendent tnvestigation of the whole question. HR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, in reply to the honourable gentleman's 13&

February 13, 1?73, Tape 46, Page 2 -- apb auestion, if there is need for an independent investigation certainly the r:overnment will consider it. The facts speak for themselves and ne have the names and addresses of the one hundred and eleven out of one hundred and twenty, that the honourable gentleman can see if he like, AN HON. !-!Et,fBER • (Inaudible) HR. CROSBIE: Yes! Yes, well I will send h:.hr a copy. If after that there is still - I nean r.ome people will not accept the facts nnywny if they have some row to hoe or soMe emotional prohlems. Hf:.

ROB:FsR1.'S~ The honourable gentleman cannot r,peni: about people not accepting facts. },fff. CROSBIE: MR. ROBERTS: "------- ;'R. CROSBIE: There is a lot I have not accepted. There is a lot the honourable memher has accepted. Sometimes it has been the facts, [,ut usually jt has been something else. If that is still the case, then l>Je will certainly consider that. But we do not consider it necessary nt this stage because of the facts. I think that when the honourable ~entleman sees them he might agree. ~- NORG.AN_:~ Mr.

Speaker, I take this privilege to welcome to the honourable House, (sitting in the galleries I think nre. thirty~two members of the Newfoundland Fishermen Food And ftllied Workers) strikers at the Bonavista Fish Plant. I must apologize for not being able to meet them before the opening of this session this afternoon, but I have been assured by the Acting Premier, the honourable Minister of Justice, that he will as well as myself meet with you this afternoon. I am hopeful that your problem will be resolved in the immediate future. Thank you, Mr. Speal'.er. t'R.

ROBERTS· The honourable members on this side of the House I know would wish to be associated with what the honourahle j!Cntleman from Bonavista South says. We are surprised that he says anything, because there is a clear understanding in this House that Mr. Speaker 13'7

February 13. 1973, Tape 4(,, Page J _,,_ nph speaks for us and that no member, Sir, -will sav anything. This maybe an exceptional case and certainly I do not want to detract from the genuineness of what the honoura'rl;:, gentleman said nor from the feelings on our side. I was very pleased to hear the honourable rentleman sny that, Sir 1 because l'lY :l.nfonnation in talking to some of the people involved and I am not necessarily sneakinp of the ]adies and gentlemen who are in the gallery todav, Sir, hut this is the first they have seen of the honourable f!entleman stnce the vhole issue ber;m.

I l·now they are very happy to have his sunport and I hope they can now get the support of the rovernm<:nt ns n whole. Thev will have the opportunity in a very few ninutes in this 11our.P, Mr. Speaker. PETITIONS• ·----- 1-'R, A.F.DmlPHY: ~ ~- - :Mr. Speaker, I ;isl· leave to present a petition on behalf of the townspeorle of St. Cenrr;e 1 s. This has heen endorsed hy npproximately 7()0 people fr('m the Town of St. Ceorpe 1 s and they asked the rovernment to urgently consider the followin~ mntter~. The Town of St.

George's is one of the oldest cornmun:lties in Hestern ~ewfoundland with a population steadily inc.rcnsing. The town council have been trying. for the past number of years, to have water and sewers installed. Presently the water and f;.ewerage has reached the critical state and it is crenting a real health hazard. Both the Clean Air, Hater and Soil Authorities and the Department of Health has advised that the situation is critical. The undersir,ned feel, the 700 people, that the government should take immediate action.

If I may add to that, I understand that in the Department of Municipal Affairs they are working in that direction and hopefully, in the near future, 138

February 13, 1973 Tape 47 IB - L they will be making an announcement for water and sewers for St, George's. I certainly hope so, (2) the Parks and Recreations Commission for the Town of St. George's has applied for a stndium grant. Persumably and 1 knrrw so, that this is an ice stadiurn for hockey, sports and what have you, The need is very great, There is no stadium in St, George's, no ice surface anywhere near by, neither in Stephenville Crossing nor to the west 1 in the communities of Robinsons, Heatherton, Jeffreys , Cartyville, McKays Highlands.

So actually, it ts not only the town itself which requires this facility but there are abvious communities that I mentioned, so we are actually talking about fifteen or twenty thousand, a population of about fifteen or twenty thousand. It is really going to serve a great need and I do hope, on reaching this department to which it relates, that the minister will certainly give it his consideration. (3) in recent years there has been great discussion on the West Coast and all over Newfoundland for that matter, as to the location of the proposed new Junior colleges for Newfoundland.

In years gone by, as a matter going back to 1897 and up to three years ago, St. Michael's College was the only boardinp, school in Western Newfoundland, Educated people from all over Newfoundland, during these many years, found St. George 1 s to be a good location and the people of the town co-operated with the students. St, George 1 s has been promised many industries over the years but without success and they feel the 13 !l

February 13, 1973 Mr. Dunphy, Tape no. 48 Page l - MRW town would be an ideal location and it would be of great help to the economy of the entire area. Due to the history of the location, the Town of St. George's asks these gentlemen,before making a decision, to seriously consider the Town of St. George 1 s. I ask that this be placed upon the table and forwarded to the department to which it relates, MR. F. R. STAGG: Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to support at least two of the recommendations of the hon. member for St. George's. The water and sewer problem at St.

Georp;e 1 s is one that has been critical for a number of years. I think it is integral to the development of the whole Bay St. George Area, that water and sewers be extended to that community. The ice stadium at St. Georr,e's is also necessary, It is a general meeting point for the people in the southern part of Bay St. George. It gives me great pleasure to support these two recommendations. I encourage the hon. member for St. George 1 s in his efforts in his third recommendation, and I am sure he will encourage mine. Thank vou. HR. W.N. ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, it gives us great pleasure on this side to support, all the matters dealt with by the petition of the honourable r,entleman. There is one in particular an<l that is the water and sewer system. for the Town of St. George's. That was a constant problem when Thad the responsibility for negotiating DREE Agreements, and we had attempted to get some such a system included in the first two DREE ARreements, without success because it was not, according to the Ottawa people, as urgent as some of the other priorities which they had in mind.

I would suggest that by now that priority has been reached and that it would be included in a third DREE Agreement to be negotiated with Ottawa, I do not know. I have no source of information on it. I would suspect that if this government had been nble to negotiate a DREE Agreement a little earlier than they presumably are going to be able to negotiate one, we probably would have seen this particular water and sewer system contained therein. i40

February lJ, 1973 Mr. Rowe. Tape no. 48 Page 2 One problem that arises with regard to referrinr, the petition to the department to which it relates on that I have grave doubts, Sir, as to whether anybody in the government or out knows what department is presently responsible for negotiatinr, DREE Agreements. 1 have never heard of a department which has that overall responsibility, as the Department of Community and Social Development had. Perhaps some member of the House or some minister of the government could enlighten the members of the House in that regard.

In i::;eneral, Sir, we have no hesitation and indeed we are very eager to support the prayer of the petition of the honourable gentleman. MR. R. WELLS: Mr. Speaker, I also should like to support the petition presented by the hon. member for St. George's. I think we have reached a stap,e where we have to give some careful thought still, to the provision of an adequate level of services and more than any other service. I believe water and sewers rate very highly in importance in Newfoundland still; certainly, in my own district this is so.

I think that the government will always be faced,in assisting municipalities,with two things: {

l) how much assistance and spread over what period of time to be repaid and also the question of the cost of water and sewer facilities and when they become just outrageous altogether from the point of view of provision of them. I am told that some communities, for instance on the Avalon Peninsula, would take possibly as high as $12,000 or $13,000 per family in order to provide water and sewer services. I think, as a House we have to take a very careful look at it because these are 141

February 13, 1973 Tape No. 49 M"R. WELLS: of absnlute prior-tty. No watter vhat thr: cost we cannot say n.s a House; look,forget it and do with the rudimentary facilities which have heen mnde do with in Newfoundland for so long. So this is something which we cannot ignore and which uill not go awny and I heartily support the honourable merr.ber's petition but particularly with regard to this matter of water nnd sewerage. Thnnk you. ffR. !1. ~WOODWARD:_ ~fr.

Speaker, I would nlso like to support the petition so ably presented by the honournhle member for St. f'em:p,e 1 s, for wnter and sewerage, which in this province js a top priority. very few communities ure p;etting the attention that I feel they deserve due to the health problems that do exist. In my ovm particular district, I have known and brought to the nttent'lon of this particular House. that people are drinkinr.: nlnost rm-J sewerage This we feel has to he remedied immediately. T feel that the honournhle memher for St.

George's is in the same situation and 1 support the views of the honourable mernher for St. John 1 s South in having the p_overnnent set this as a µriority rather thnn hnve half our peop1e end up sick in hospitals where we do not have nr.iple facilities to look after them either. I would also like to say n few words on the other two sections of the petition, one is the ice arena,which T. feel should be in every viable community in the Province of Newfoundland, and another one is the junior college.

I publicly will support a junior college for Stephenville and I am sure our honourable friend from Port nu Port will welcome this. We are involved in my district in a sin,iliar situation with a phase-dov.'!l of the American Air Force at Goose Bay. I think the government should ta1:e a very serious look nt those facilities, facilities that will become available, and in order to cut cost on capital spending in this province to put the junior college in an area where you do have facilities that are not going to cost you as much as new construction and consequently the money 142

February 13, 1973 Tape No. 49 N~l - 2 HR. WOODWARD: that is saved could be directed toward the water and sewer programmes. '!R. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. I would like to support the peition presented by the member for St. George's, In so doing. Sir, I want to say that I fail to understand the remarks made by the member for St, John's South when he said that this should be given top priority, Hater and sewerage should be given top priority. Only one week ago, Hr. Speaker, the Premier of this province said we have enough infrastructure. We are not going to support water and sewerage projects anymore.

We are going to let them go on their ovn. 1s there no communication, Sir? It is true, Mr. Speaker_ }ffi. SPEAKER: Order! Support the petition, not ramble outside the petition. MR. NEARY~ Yes, Hr. Speaker, I would merely like to kno,;,1 if there is any communication between the Premier and the members of his administration~· As far as the regional collene or community college is concerned, Sir, I support the petition not especially for St. George's but I think what the honourable member for Port nu Port and St.

George I s and from Central Newfoundland, the honourable member for Grand Falls and the honourable member for Humber East and the honourable member for Humber West, what they are really trying to do (who is not in his seat 143

February 13, 1973 Tape 5fl PK - 1 thi.s afternoon)is tryinp: to iet the administration to select a stte in Newfoundland for a regional or community colle.Re. I think, Sir, that the administration should do th:i.s at an early date as possible. I ilo not care where they huild it hut at least they should clear the air, clarify the matter and say where the locations are r.oing to he for the reiional or community colle1?es in Newfoundland. HON. R. L._CHEESill'f.AN (MINISTFR OF FISHERIES): Mr. Speaker, I would like to support the petition presented hy the honourat,le the member for St. George's.

In so doing I would like to point out that most of the references made from the honourable members who have supported this petition h:we in the main concerned themselves with :if not urban well then semi­ urhan centres with the possible exception of the honourable memher from Lahrador North. I would assume that in his remarks he was referring to some of the more isolated areas as well as tht central area. But I believe, Nr.

Speaker, that there is a very gre>:at need for a reappraisal hy this House, by this government, in fact hy any p.overnment of Newfoundland at any point in time, to be aware of the many prohlems that exist in our srnall,truly rural communities, coastal communities that by and large and from tradition are located in particularly rocky terrain. Such communities exist 1n my own District of Hermitage and they present tremendous problems in the normal course of engineering.planning for water and sewers ' located as they are again and traditionally nnd for ~ood reason right on the side of the water.

Very often in appraising the needs and lookinp, at the cost of such installation :!.n these communities, we can be carried away by the economics involved in relation to the relntively small numher of people. Hr. Speaker, I suggest in supporting this petition that when it reaches the department concerned I believe that then as well as at any time in the future that real, truly serious consideration should be given to the urgent

February 13, 1973 Tape 50 PK - Z need which exists in most of the coastal areas of this province. I trust that my own District of Hermitage will see pro~ress in this regard in the coming season and I hope that many other districts will do likewise. MR.

SPEAKER: I would like to remind honourable members of a ruling which was brought in in the last session,on debate on presentation of petitions,as it might be applicable now., I might just quote the last couple of paragraphs of that ruling: 11 From the above information it seems clear that debate is not permitted on the results of the presentation of the petition and I so ruled. I should note however that over the years the custom of cLrtain memb~rs sometimes rnaking brief comments on the petitions has grown up in this House.

This is not sanctioned by any rule but occurs only by leave of the House and might be said to exist as rules of courtesy that honourable members accord each other. I do not propose to interfere with the extension of such courtesies at this time, but should the matter of speaking on presentations of petitions appear to get out of hand, I may have to reassess my position." MR J~A. CARTER: I beg leave of the llouse to present a petition on behalf of some 3,900 citizens of St. John's who are concerned ahout the effects of what has become known as the Crosbie Complex. 145

February 13, 1973 Tape 51 Page 1 IB The petition asks that a public hearing be called for the uurpose of discussing same. Mr. Sµeaker, personally, I believe the promoters of this hotel complex to be ill-advised. I think there are great many unanswered questions. I think, first of all, there is the question of the shaky foundation at the location where they plan to build it. Hon. members might remember that just up the street the site of the sewer pumping station caused at least one construction to get into serious financial difficulties in order to try to keep the water out of the ex­ cavation.

I would say that St John's could end up with an extremelv c,ostlv hole in the ground. At least it would require, in my viev, casings to be nut down and with all the cost attendant upon that type of engineering. There is also the question of traffic congestion. Either people will not be able to get to this complex or else half of St. John's-I use the half figurati.vely:- will have to be torn down to provide access. The planners mav well be thinking of hotels like the Royal York Hotel in Toronto and the Queer Elizabeth Hf'tel in Montreal.

These are large complexs that have certainly been of benefit to the area where they have been olaced but it must be remembered that these complexs have rail, bus, sub­ way services and also wide streets. None of these conditions exist in down-town St. John's at this particular location. The parking garage that is planned to go in conjunction with this complex does seem to be inadequate at first glance. There is also the very important question, in my view, of whether St. John's should develop this way.

If this building is premited as planned and other buildings follow suit, this will have the effect of drawing a curtain along St. John•s harbour, along the waterfront. I think we can say, without fear of contridiction, that St. John's has the most attractive waterfronts in North America, certainly one of the most attractive waterfronts. You know, the expression "down by the docks 11 is often used as a synonym for slum but it is certainly not such a synonym here in St.

John's4 I also understand that part of the deal that has been made to place this complex here, also involves the portions of land both at the east end of St. John ts and at the west end around the site of the present railway yard. Now, it seems to me that either of these two locations would be ideally suitable for such a complex and it may well be that upon greater investigation by all parties concerned that a general 146

February 13, 1973 Tape 51 Page 2 rn agreement would come about that the complex should go there,because that is still doim town, Sir. The west end of Water Street has long been neglected and I think a hit of money spent on development there would not be amiss. There are, in fact, so many unanswered questions about this whole complex that 1 find the request for a public hearing to be a very justifiable one and I have no hesitation in supporting it. For instance, there is the question of the a.'Tiount of light that this structure is going to dispose of. What about the wind velocities? We know very well 147

February 13, 1973, Tape 52, Page 1 -- apb from recent experience that certain new structures in St. John 1 s, have markedly affected the wind velocity in their area, r,/hat kind of a deal have the C.H.R. made? Hnve they eiven awny the land? Are they selling it chcanly? Hhnt is the deal? He would like to know and have more answers. What ahout the council? What kin<l of rep:ulations are they henrlinr :in order that this complex reny he erected? I understand that it is go:in,:, to fill the entire plot of land that is assigned to it and this, as I understand it, is a breaking of the City Council by-laws.

I think that we have to ar,ree,those of us who may be for it and those of us who may be against it, I think we all h11ve to concur that this is the moi:;t irnportant architectural decision of the century for St. John 1 s. I say, let us make our mistakes on paper. Let us make St. John's not only a pleasant place to wor~ and shop, but also a pleasant place to be. 1 think the whole matter should be aired and it may well be that upon mature considen,tion the 11roposed complex will r,o ahead as planned, although I would hope in some other part of the clty as I hnve alreadv stated.

If it does, then it will need all of the sympathy and co-operation of the reneral public. It would be a pity,therefore, for the council to use unworthy means to rnilroad these proposals through. If they ;ire good, then they can stnnd up to debate. If they are not good, then we should not waste our time entertaining them. In addition, }1r. Speaker, to the approximately thirty-nine hundred names that are on this petition, there are other concerned groups and I will just p;ive a short list. There is the Newfoundland Association of Architects, the Atlantic Planners Institute (Newfoundland Branch), the St.

John's and District Labour Council, the Southside Citizens' Committee, the Citizens' Rights Association, the Social Action Committee of the YWCA, the Newfoundland Historic Trust, the People's Plannin,r Prograrmne and I 1.48

February 13, 1973. Tape 52. Pape 2 -- aob mi~ht add, a fair proportion of the members thenselves of the City Council. I therefore wish that this petition be referred to the department to which it relates and I have no hesitation in supportinf its prayer. Thank you. ~m~_NEA!,Y_:, }'r. Speaker, on behalf of the Members on th:is side of the House it rives me great pleasure tD support the praver of the petlti0n, that a hearinr, he held before thiR downtown complex j.s nroceeded with any further.

It is not our lntention, f;lr, on this side to interfere with the operations of the workings of the rity Council, hut we do agree that there nre many unanswere<l nucstions in this wholP. matter that need to be cleared up. The only way thnt we can see u, clear the air. is by holding a public hearjni,-. Then•fore, Pr. Spenk0r, we sincerely hope that the !finister of ~funicipal Aff;iirs and the City Council can work out an arrangement whereby the various groups that nrc interested and the citizens of St. John's espec.iaJlv f'e riven an opportunity to express their views at a public hearinp...

I w;mt to say this, fir, before I tnke my seat, that this is the day in this honourable. House 't.then you separate the men frorr the hoys. There are 149

February 13, 1973 Mr. Neary Tape no. 53 Page l - MRW six or seven members in this House representing St. John's Districts. Sir, Let us hear from these honourable members. The hon. member for St. John's South, I understand from press and radio, refused to present this petition on the honourable floor of this House. I commend, compliment and congratulate the hon. member for St. Jolm's North for having the courage, Sir, to present this petition on behalf nf 3,900 citizens of St. John's. This is the Peoplets House, Sir. AN HON. MEMBER: He should be in the cabinet. MR.

NEARY: Well I would not go as far as to say the honourable member should be in the cabinet, Sir. AN HON. MEMBER: Do not get turned away. HR. NEARY: Well that is another matter. With these few brief remarks. Sir, again may I, in the spirit of good will, sincerely hope that the Minister of Municipal Affairs - I realize, Nr. Speaker, that he has his share of problems these days but I am sure, Sir, that he should be able to get together with members of the City Council and work out something whereby the people of St.

John's who want to do so, will be able to go down and express their views before a public hearing, before this complex is proceeded with any further. I will be most interested, Hr. Speaker, to see what the hon. Minister of Finance has to say about this matter. MR. CROSBIE: Hr. Speaker, let me put the honourable gentleman's r.iind at rest. I have no reason not to speak on this petition and I am not speaking on behalf of the government, Mr. Speaker because the r,overnment have not considered this. I am speaking on my own behalf, as the member for St. John I s West.

As far as this petition is concerned, I agree, and it is my view as a citizen of the City of St. John's that there has not been sufficient information given to the people of St. John's in order for them to decide whether or not this is a project that should continue as presently planned and be given a permit by the City of St~ John 1 s. That is my own view and based f50

February 13, 1973 Tape no. 53 Page 2 Mr. Crosbie. on what I know of it. What I know of it is what I have seen in the newspapers. I know no more than any other honourable gentleman here about it. I believe that the groups who have raised concern about it, the Newfoundland Historic Trustt the architects, some of them may have their own row to hoe but anyway they are an association and these other groups are well meaning and apparently saw fit to suggest certain iterns that need to be clarified, if this project goes ahead on Water Street, in St. Johnts. I, like evervbody, am for motherhood. I am for the redevelopment of the downtown

section of St. John's. I am not convinced either that this project should not go ahead or that it will upset the environment or it will not be a good thing. 1 franklv do not have enough information to know·. I cannot for the life of me see, Hr. Speaker, why the City Council of St. John's would hesitate to have a public meeting or a public hearing or to spend several days at a hearing or whatever you want to call it, so that the promoters of the project, the City Coundl, can answer questions, give information to these other p,roups who have objections to it and can present their point of view.

I cannot see whv a week or two weeks, if it took that long, I cannot see why the City Council cannot agree to that. In other words I believe that the Citv Council is quite wrong in its decision to proceed to grant a permit for this project without giving more information to the public. That is one point. However, there is another point that this petition is now requesting the government or the House of Assembly to force the City of St. John's to hold a hearing on this project. That is a matter of an entirely different complexion, The City of 151

February 13~ 1973 Tape 54 JM - 1 of St. John's, Mr. Speaker~ has been a municipality and had its own municipal government since the 1890 1 s and certainly since. there were some problems after that, but certainly since 1912 or 1914. It had its own city council durin~ the years from 1933 to 1949 when we had commission of government; there was the only elected body on the island. It has had these powers that are in the City of St. John's Act now for some fifty years.

When I was on the city council and after that and it has always been a belief of mine that legislation passed by this House iives a municipality certain rights and responsibilities and therefore I certainly cannot at this stage see how I could favour this House amending the City of St. John's Act or passing some legislation to force the city to have a hearing because although in this instance it may have a worthy object,thatthere should be a public hearin~, there is nothin~ to stop this House or the government in six months time,for some bad cause,forcing the City of St.

John's to do something that it does not want to do. The city has been given the reponsibility by this House to decide these issues and whether it acts rightly or wrongly the answer then is in the hands of the electorate.

If the electorate feel that the city council has made a mistake, if they continue to refuse to have a public hearing despite the support expressed for it in this House and in other groups, if they still maintain that stubborn resolve that they will not have a public hearing, that contempt for public opinion, if they still maintain that then I for one think that the answer to that is in the hands of the electorate of the City of St. John's next November. MR. ROBERTS: Withhold their next bond issue. MR, CROSBIE: We know that we have ways to pressure the city.

They could ask us to approve a bond issue and we could say no but I do not believe that we should try and bully the city in that way. This is a matter that has been given them to decide. If they still persist in their present course then the answer will be with the electorate of the City of St. John 1 s 152

February 13, 1973 Tape 54 J!-1 - 2 next November. So while I support the petition in the sense that I a~ree that the City of St. John's should arrange for a public hearing to have this whole matter properly ventilated and all of the objections properly considered and I say they have nothing to fear,if the project is a proper one but if these concerns are ill-founded then they should be able to show that.I believe that should be done. If the city stubbornly continues to refuse to do it~I cannot certainly at this stage support the request that the ~overnment itself should force a public hearing on this matter.

As I say I am speaking for myself and not for the ~overnment and I feel I had to speak because I am a member, I represent St. John's West. l have not spoken before because I do not want to be engaged in controversy in something that a relative of mine is involved in 7 naturally~ But since the hon. gentleman wanted my views,I hope that satisfies him, MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, the hon. the Minister of Finance expressed my views competely with my attitude with respect to this petition,and I rise in the House because the hon. the member for Bell Island et al wishes to be given the attitude of all the members of St.John's. I am not against, Mr. Speaker, the complex per se. I do not believe, I do not really think although I can fully understand the argument that the esthetic nature of St. John's itself will be interfered or its view will be interfered with, the fact of the matter remains that some of the view happens to be oil tanks on the other side of Southside Hill.

But in any event Water Street has been the conrnercial capital not only of St. John's but of all of Newfoundland for centuries and I am not against development as such down there. However I concur with the observations made by the hon. the Minister of Finance to the effect that l think the City of St. John's is being rather stubborn about the matter, inflexible and certainly I feel that they ought to,in the interest of prudence and also in the interest of democracy, allow the citizens of St. John's to express their views with respect to it. 153

FebruarJ 13, 1973 Tape 54 But, Mr. Speaker, let there be no misunderstanding that this House unless the matter is extremely and excruciatingly serious this House or this government I do not feel, Mr. Speaker 1 can interfere to that extent in every issue that comes up with local government. Now this is a very important issue I know, We cannot get to the stage - JM - 3 this local government has been set up in this province as an autonomous outfit or outfits~ and they are doing a good job by and large, most of them.

If the city council decides to act in a stubborn fashion, which in my own opinion, which is not necessarily the opinion of government but my opinion as the member of St John's East,they are acting very, very stubbornly in this matter and they could well have public hearings. Well they will answer to their electorate when the time comes just as all members of this hon. House will answer to their own respective electorate. There are certain things that should be aired, that have to be aired.

For instance one thing that occurs to me is the business with respect to the CNR Hotel and I would like to know why the CNR or the Federal Government gives over the hotel and why this hotel is not given back to the province. It was owned by the province before Confederation. CNR has made very little investment, God knows, in this province since 1949. It was handed over to them under the terms of Confederation purely and simply in accordanc~ with the terms of Confederation for the purpose of operating the hotel which has been there. It is ours. It is our hotel. It is the province•s hotel. It went over to the CNR.

The CNR, as I say. has shown in my view anyway very, very little sympathy with Newfoundland all throughout and I feel that they have made ~igantic capital investments in various hotels around the rest of Canada 1 that they could well afford to make the investment here on Water Street independently without having the hotel given awaydBecause the hotel lies within my district and quite frankly I would prefer to see this hotel used for the purpose of an old person's home or for intermediate care with respect to people who are in 154

February 13, 1973 Tape 54 JM - 4 hospitals,that have to come in and stay there for a little while, So there are all sorts of issues such as that that I am quite sure that many of the populous of St. John's would like to raise. But the point is this, Mr. Speaker, that as far ns we are concerned I a~ree with the Minister of Finance,as I say,on this that we cannot, while I agree that they are stubborn, that city council has been stubborn.

I do not feel that we can interfere directly with city council in this matter, that it would be unwise at this stage because to do so would tear at the very principle of local government in this province. MR. WELLS: Mr. Speaker, I think that the hon. the Minister of Finance and the hon. member for St. John's East have expressed the principle correctly.

I will express it again and say one or two words on this matter in the hope not only thnt I can clarify this matter for the House but particularly for the hon. member for Bell Island because I think with the passage of time,if he hears something often enough it is just possible that he might get it right and that he might go out of this House having somethin~ right,and if only that could happen, what delight it would mean for me. The whole thing is this, Mr.

Speaker, this petition says, "We, the undersigned. request that city council call a public hearing for the purpose of discussing the proposed Crosbie Complex on Water Street officially called "Atlantic Place.n Now I personally feel, and everytime I speak you know the hon. member for Bell Island thinks it is the administration speaking - MR. ROBERTS: (Inaudible). MR. WELLS: Not at all, not at all. That too if only he couid get straight. The hon. member for St. John's South is very proud to be what is called a backbencher. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). HR. WELLS: No, no. A simple backbencher.

Not a whip like the hon. gentleman 155

February 13, 1973 Tape 54 JM - 5 from Bell Island~ nothing fancy, no titles, no nothing, a simple backbencher. MR. ROBERTS: And not one of the boys bein~ taken care of. MR. WELLS: And not one of the boys being taken care of and not one of the boys or anybody being taken care of. Now having cleared the decks in the hope that the hon~ member will understand we can now proceed. I believe, Mr. Speaker, that the mayor and the councillors from St. John•s who voted against the public hearing were absolutely wrong. They were wrong and 1 think it was arrogant 156

February 13, 1973, Tape 55, Pagel -- npb HR. WELLS: is arror:ancc on their part to do so. I think there ----~-- -- should he a public henrinp into this complex. f'ertain thinr,s occur to me, like the pn.rldnr; problem. The question of matters dealing with C.N.R. I an not so concerned with. 1 think thnt is a matter for the C.N~P. and if necessary for the l.'edernl Parliarrent.

Certainly, pnrkinp: in particular and the finnncial arrnni::en:ents between the city and the promoters of this developnent, I think these thinr:s are inportant, I think they should he p:oni2 into and I thin¥ that the puhlic should have full knowledrrc. of what the i:rnr,licntions are. But hnvinf snid that, and havin[;: said that as clearlv I think as words can make it. I still think thnt the Province of t-1ewfoun<l]and has no business buttinr in nnd overriding nntters which are within the jurisdiction of the City of St. John's. I think it would he a bad precedent to stnrt.

I think j_f it v:ere to be done you would have the City of St. John 1 s and every municipalitv in the province, when hard decisions came up,snyinr to the province: 11All right, you play city council. you do it, because if 1.1e do it you are lil:elv to overrule us.' I think to do that sort of thin;", would put municipal government in 1-;c,-:founctlanrl hack thirty y?ars. I would not want to see that done. I think r. as a St.

John's rnemher and I hope other of my collea~ues in this House will mnl-'.c it clear nuhlicly and privately or in this House and on the media, that we think a public hearinp.: ought to be held. But I would regret any move on thf' pa.rt of this House to forcibly g_o in by legislation and overrule the City of St. John's and say; ''You have to do it,' hecausc we rnirht as well disband the City Council, we might as well put someone, a civil servant down there and say to him: ''Administer St. John's.'· That I would not want to see happen~ This is the position.

The honourable member for Bell Island in the course of his education mip:ht as well know that the petition that 15'7

FEBRUARY 13, 1973, Tape 55, Pape 2 -- aph was proposed and which he referred to in erroneous fashion, proposed just that, when I discussed it with certa:in members of the Peonle's ComMittee,that the province should be ast·etl to step in and overrule. This petition does not say th.at at all. The wording of this netition is such that it can be supported because it is n request to City Council by these people to have public hearings. I join with thew in that request. I too as well as my colleagues here in the House, some of whom have already spoken,want to see and urge on the City Council public hearings, Hr.

Speaker. HON. iLR.V.EARLE (M'inister of Public Worirs <:1,nd Serv1ces): Pr. Speaker, as a lifelong resident of the City of St. John's, T think I c.an speaY on this with as much concern as anyone for the welfarl? of the City of St. John's. I would say at the outset that I would p::ivc this petition my unequivocal support, because I feel that not enough is lrnown certainly by me and I suspect hy fl'Ost of the residents of St. John's, of the implication of this~(which is probat>ly the most tre-reendous undertaldnp of the century in the City of St. John 1 s)and what effect -ft will eventually have.

I have seen in many parts of the world, in many cities,up to recent months,the effect of large-scale construction which has not been properly thour,ht out or properly pJanncd. St. John ts. in common with all of Newfoundland,is probably on the verge of a tremendous upsurge in its economy. Should oil be discovered on the. Grand Banks, what will hit tbis city and many places in St. John's. would not dare he dreamed of today. It could well be that perhaps in overcrowding the commercial part of the City of St. John's, we may be condemning ourselves to the impossibility of proper prorress in the future.

I feel that this matter is of such serious proportion that the City Council should be mature enouph to hold public hearings on this. Like the previous speakers, I do not think the government for one 158

February 13, 1973. Tape 55. Page 3 -- apb moment would countenance any idea of tryinr to force the City Council 1 s hand in thi.s respect. It would l-if' unheard of, It would be a most undemocratic step and T am quite imre that the City Council, properly elected hy the citizens, should he mature enough to handle this situation properly. But I 1 as a resident of St. John 1 s, not necessarily as a minister of this government would appeal to them to show extreme caution and maturity in this particular matter. I support the petition. Pr. Spt'akcr.

I realize Pe are hendinr the rules with regnrd to this particular petitinn, but I think it is a matter of some puhlic concern and perhaps any speaker who would wish to spe;,V should he ,1.hlc to speak. Let me rral:e this point first.

I do not necessarily a.r,ree at least so adamantly as my learnf'd friends on the other side of the Pouse ns to the interference of thi~ Fou!-e in matters of municipal government, Let us first of all renlize that the -nunicipal governments of this province are not another srihere of govern~ent like the federal government nor the provincial government each of which is independent uithin its own Aphere. ~'unicirrnl governnents all over this province ;ire creatures, are created by this le;dslature. It is us in this House who p.:ive these munic:ipnlitiC's their powers to <lo anythinp. nt all, Mr. Speaker.

Let us also consider the fact that we are not enouiring into the merits of whether a lnrge skyscraper be built on the water-front of St, John's or not. We are not enquirinr: into that at all during this particular discussion on the petition, f-l'r. Speaker. All we are saying and all the petition asks for and all I am supportinr certainly, is a request and perhaps even an order,(if that is possible under existing lep,islation) that the Hunicipalitity of St. John's, the City of St.

John's. do in fact hold a public hearinp: so that other people besides themselves can be made privy to certain fncts which are not now outstanding and are not now public knowledge. 159

February 13, 1973, Tape 55, Page 4 ~- apb There is some dispute about adequate parkinp. There is some dispute about the aesthetics of the huidling goinr, un in that area. There is some dispute as to whether that is the place in which such a building should go. Perhaps all these questions can be answered in the positive or the ner,ative, hut I do not know, }'r. Speaker, and I doubt if anyone else in this House or anyone else in St. John I s or this province 1:nows the answers to these questions. It is for that renson that we are nsking and T in fact sir.ned that petition personally, to ask fnr a publlc hearing.

I will go further, Sir, and say that it is not enough for concerned members of St. John's or thi;; House to turn a blind eye to something which is patently erroneouB. li'!<'e the stnh11ornness of the council in not holdin~ n public lu::!arlnv and say; 'It is all right, the electorate will denl with that counc:i] . 1 · I think that is wrong and I think that we ::ln this l'.ouse can learn from the example that this controversy has provided us with, namely that perhaps something should r;o into the St.

John's f,lunicipal Act or in all the acts governinp to~m councils an<l community councils around this province, so that perhaps on the orders of the minister, (i.f that is possible now, I do not know) or the r,overnment, an order­ tn-council, a puPlic hearinr can he held into certain controversial matters, not to decide upon the merits of n nnrticular thing roinp ahead or not p,:oinr ahead, but to make sure tlrn.t all concerned people in St. John I s or in any other municipality concerned are in possession of the facts involved.

These councils are creatures created by this legi.slature and I do not think now that merely for the snke of some wishy-mtshv tnlk about democracy, as important as thnt nay he, that we in this House should turn a blind eye and not exerci.se ,.,,hat ever powers we do possess in order to make sure that right is done. What is rir;ht in this question is a public hearing. We should not decide. I 160

February 13. 1973, Tape 55 1 Page 5 -- anh p,o further to say we should not decide on the ouestion of whether this building should go ahead or not. He should decide nnd if ve do have the power to do anythinµ- al,out it, we should decide in favour of a public hearinr being helrl on this mattc>r. 161

February 13, 1973 Tape No. 56 NM - 1 !!ON. T. V. HICKEY, MINISTER OF PROVINCIAL AFFAIRS AND ENVIRONMENT: ~r. Speaker, I would just like to add my support to the petition, as one representing a large

section of St. John's. I think that the least City Council can do is to accede to the request of the people who have asked for a public hearing. I think their action to date in refusing that request is a clear cut indication of arrogance. 1 think~ Nr. Speaker, that when the municipal election rolls around, if in fact council does not accede to the people I s request, they will get their answer.

This kind of arrogance cannot be tolerated and while this House cannot interfere, I would certainly as one like to see representation made to council, pointing out that nothing is to be lost 1 maybe a lot is to he gained by a public hearing and at least accede to the request of the people who in fact elected them, if not, such a council does not deserve to remain in office. I fully support the petition. MR. ROBERTS: We conclude the debate.

I realize we do not normally debate the petitions, Your Honour, but Your Honour has been p,ood enough to allow us to, shall we say, be a little more long spnken as well as perhnps out spoken on this issue and I think that that is rather a good thing. The House could be overly bound by rules and that is not in anybody's interest. Well let me say that in case there is any doubt, my colleagues have spoken and I agree with them, but let me say as well that I too would like to see a public hearing and like the gentleman from St.

John's West, the Minister of Finance, I know only what I have read about it in the newspapers but certainly there are questions that have been raised that have not been answered. I think that that is common ground. Having said that, Mr. Speaker, let me go on to say that I quite subscribe to the sentiment that a council is crent~d and that they have authority to do certain things and they should do them as they think best and in due course they should answer to their electorate. I think we would all concur with that. 162

February 13, 1973 Tape No. 56 rm - 2 MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, that is not exactly the case here. I intend, on Orders of the Day, to ask the Minister of Municipal Affairs if he could state the government's position with respect to this ~~tter. Each of the several ministers who have spoken have made it quite clear that he is not necessarily speaking the government's position. Maybe the government has no position. Sir, if not it.. is the rankest hypocrisy, and I have seen some rank hypocrisy, when we were over there and now that we are over here and the other Pnrty is over there.

The government of this province, Sir, has the ultimate responsibility for the City of St. John 1 s. 'The City of St. John ts exists because the people of this province, through this Bouse, cre:'!.tetl it. Just as the City of Corner Brook exists, or the Community of Htng's Bite or the Community of Springdale or any community in this province and for the government to try a Pontius Pilate al"d wash their hands of it, is rank hypocrisy. They are scared. Let them take a stand. If the stand be the one the Minister of Finance said was his stand, I can see that. I was quite impressed by his remarks.

The honourable gentleman did not hesitate to interfere in the internal affairs of the Town of Gander, who were acting within their rights, and if they were not acting legally, it i::hould have been sent to the Supreme Court on a reference, Mr. Speaker, I am speaking on the petition. Let the honourable gentleman from Babb Construction down there be quiet. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, let us afford the same treatment to all honourable members. Point of Order, Mr. Speaker. MR. MARSHALL: The honourable Leader of the Opposition 1 Hr.

Speaker, is obviously not speaking to the petition itself hut refers to extraneous matters not related to them themselves. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, to that Point of Order, if I may be permitted a representation before Your Honour rules. Thank you. 163

February 13, 1973 Tape No. 56 NM - 3 '.'>ffi.. ~OBERTS: 1 submit, Sir, my remarks are quite in order. at least as much in order as the ;;entleman from St. John's South who was allowed to get into a cross-fire with my colleap,ue and friend from Bell Island. I am saying~ 1/;r. Speaking, in speaking in support of the petition, let the government be consistent. They did not hesitate, Sir, in dealing with an exactly nnalor,ous matter from the Town of Cander,to interfere. They happen to have the power under statute there. I already asked the ~,linister of "-'!unicipnl i\ffnirs.

He will fudr,e it, but I will give h.im the opportunity. I have now even given him some notice. Let the government tnke a position so that the people of St. John's can judge the povernrnent. t{R. HARBHALL: Hr. Speaker, on a Point of Order, there ts n Point of Order before Your Honour, that the honourabl!! the Leader of the Opposition is supposed to he addressing himself to and instead he is going on nnd completely nnd absolutely overlookinp; the P0int of flrder. '-'r. Speaker. if the honourahle Le~der of the 0pposition wi.shes tn speak to the Point of Order he mny and th.en. f1r. Speaker.

T would nsk Your Honour to make a ruling. 213.0fl~Bf'.RTS: Mr, Speaker, to that I understood that whr>n Your llonntir took his seat and nodded that Your Honour h;id allowed me to carry on but if Your Honour wishes to make rm ora] rulinp:, I am of course hound - "-~. S_l:EAKER:_ The honourable Leader of the f!ppos:l.tion continue. :rn ,JpBERJS2.,___ As I was saying, }fr. Speaker. and T will draw to a close on this, I find many of the renw.rks made on the other side os the remnrks made on this side, quite acceptn.hle. I 111.d .. te n.pree with them.

But at the same time, Sir, the government have in ta11'inp, nhout thi.s petition, let it be remembered that the povernment of this province hnve the responsibility for the administration of municipalities and 1et thew not wash their hands. He will not allow them to wnsh their hanrls of it. HR. OTTENHEI~lt:.. ..... Thank you. Thank you. 164

Fcbnrnry 15. 1973 Tape ~fo. 56 '.'>ffi. n:QR_E;?JJ½_ Ruck from Venezneln are you? ~~T_TFN]l_~· Nr. Spenlrer, I w0uld lH-e to rnnke ,1 Point of '1rdcr and I think the distinction is this, discussion or dehnu~ rin the r,ietition, and as Your Honour '."'\nr; sugr,ested there is a ce:rtnin latitude allowed the.re. That is one aren. The other area i;; discussion of the r.overnrnent 1s policy fn municipal aff;1irs tn which there will he ample opportunity to discuss.

I sur,gest thnt the Lender of the Opposition is now dehnting the policy of the vovernment in mmtcinnl affairs and is not debnting the prayer of the petition, ttnt a pu1,lic enquiry he estnh1 ishe.d. 'fR. non1:1?.TS·_- To th,1t Point of Order, ~-lr. Speaker, T nm nnt dehntinf' their policy. I am dehatinp; their lack of n poli<.'.v in mm:icip;il affairs. \fR. OTTPmEl~fFP: 1:t is the same thinr. 1t -is the snme thing. \fP, POBF:~TS: Shame, a politicn1 speech - '4R. SPEAKtP_:_, Order please.

I feel that the honournhle Lender of the Opposition is v,andering mmy from support or tnlkinp on this petition, 1 trust thnt he will stick to the petition in question. ½R. ROBERTS· 1 take my motto from, if I nny be forgiven, usinp. The Evening Telegram where it says "It is the time for love. flm:ers nnd candy hearts." l..fr. Speaker, all J will say, thnt this petition has much rnerlt. whether or not this House should or shouls' not interfere in the affairs of St. John's. Sir, and that is n point directly arising out of one of the prayers in this petition, Hr. Speaker.

Let it he rememhered that the government of this province have the responFihility and cannot duck it and it is their responsibility. Let them lead, Sir. Let them govern. Let them bring in a policy arising out of this petition and it will he debated. In the meantime, I do think the honourable gentleman for St. John's North should be congratulated for bringing it in. ~y understandinp is that a number of other honourable gentlemen were approached. It may be a significant cor.imentary on the political state of the province, we were not approached at this stage, maybe 165

February 13, 1973 Tape No. 56 NM - 5 MF .. RO~ER_~~ we shall be next time, In any event 1 Mr. Speaker, I thjnk it has been a very good debate nnd ! think even though rossibly it has gone on n long time, I think Your Honour should be commended for it, sort of turninF, the blind eye, because I think it has been the sort of debate we perhaps should have in this House once in a while, a debate on fairly large principles effecting after all one-fifth of the people of this province, MR.

HICKEY: On a Point of Personal Privilege, would the honourable gentleman, Leader of the Opposition, like to retract the statement he made associating me with Babb Construction? Is he man enough to take that hack or does he want to de.hate it? MR. ROBERTS: I would like to debate it. ! have been trying for weeks to find an opportunity to debate it, if the honourahle P,entleman will mnke it possible. !-fR. HICKEY: There will be time to debate it and I can assure him that his face will be· good and red after that debate is over. In the meantiIT~ he need not associate me with Babb Construction, I do not work for it.

I am not connected with it. I am not interested ln it and it is about time the honourable p,entleman quit his rot. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I think we have had sufficient debate on this petition and I suggest that we move on to other business. 166

February 13, 1973 Tape 57 Page 1 1B We voted for this position, did we not? HON. T. ALEXANDER HICKMAN: (MINISTER OF JUSTICE): I ask leave to table the following regulations, Mr. Sneaker. The Prision Regulations of 1969,as A.~ended; The Public Service Pensions Board Commission, Public Utilities Regulations, 1972;· The St. John's Fire Department Regulations, 1972. ;'lr. Speaker, at long 1ast I am in a pos1.tion to table in this House the Revised Statutes of Newfoundland, 1970. I better not try to pick these up right now.

For the enlightenment of some hon. members who are new i.n the legislature,in 1967 a comnittee was appointed to revise the Statutes of Newfoundland, the first time since 1951. 1 would simply, in tabling the Revised Statutes, ~r. Speaker, like to thank the committee, under the chairmanship of Hr. Edmund .J. Fap:an, Q.C., the other members being Mr. Henry H. Cummings, Q.C., the Registrar of the Supreme Court, Hr. James E. Nurch, O.C. and Mr. Davi.cl Riches, secretary, for the amount of time that they had put into the Pevision of the Statutes.

An indication might be that two hurndred and eighty meetings of the committee where held and the number of hours spent; the total number of hours was in excess of six hundred. In addition each member spent at least, one hundred hours working on cross-checking , bv himself cross-checking the statutes. We have one hundrerl bound copies available at this time, ~r. Speaker. These will be made available to the members foot all the opposition) and the ministers and the courts, the rest have to come in by rail after they have been bound and this may take about two months.

We have all together one thousand sets in the process of being hound and another fifteen hW1dred sets which will be made available, are un­ bound. I do think, Mr. Sneaker, that the House would wish me to thank those who work with the Queens Printers for the effort that they have put into the Revision of the Statutes~ The employees, members of the staff and Mr. Moore have worked for the last four months, twenty-four hours a day, in printing of the Pevised Statutes. One innovation in the Revised Statutes that is new is that for the first time the statutes are in alphabetical order.

We were the only province that for some reason I could not understand consolidated our statutes under subject matter rather than in alphabetical order, There will he, in due course if it is not there alreadv, a table 167

February 13, 1973 Tane 57 Page 2 1B of contents under subject matter as well hut it makes it very much easier for the people to find their way around the revised statutes and again, ~r. Speakvr, I had recommended that the rules of the court. the Judicature Act and the criminal appeal rules and the district court rules be included in the revised statutPs.

This would be possible only by delaying them for another year. ~!1'!at is proposed now is that there will be a separate volume containing the Judicature Act that is already in here, The Rules of the Supreme Court; the Criminal Appeal Court Rules and the District Court Act. One thing this points up very clearly, ~r. Speaker, is that, and I am ex­ pressing an opinion here, what we really should have in the revision of the statutes,is a permanent committee that are on-going with consolidation so chat we comply with the act that was passed in 1971 that there would be a revision every ten years.

In concluding, I do thank Mr. Ralph nnvis, the Queen's Printer, and Miss May Barlett and two of her assistants who did till the proofreading, again hundreds of hours of work,and they have lovely,blue covers. MR. SPEAKER: Are there any other Reports of Standing or Select Committees? HON. JOHN C~ CROSBIE: (MINISTER OF FINANCE): Mr.

Speaker, I wir:h to table specir11 warrants this year, As the members of the House know, in any financial year it is inevitable that the amounts approved by the House, under some subheads in the estimates will be found to be inadequate in some cases, excessive in others and that when you can not offset additional expenditures by countervailinr savings sometimes apecial warrants are needed to spend additional money during the year. This additional money can only be spent upon the recommendation of the Treasury Hoard and by special warrant which, subsequently 1 needs to be followed by a Supplementary Supply Bill.

I am happy to teport to the House, Mr. Speaker, this year that the special warrants total only seven million, six hundred and forty-six thousand, one hundred and twenty dollars or just l.3per cent of the gross expendtiture of the government during this year and this percentage is the lowest percentage of Supplementary Supply since Newfoundland entered Confederation in 1949. This is also, Mr. Speaker, the lowest amount of Supplementary Supply that has been required by the government since 1961. I am ~iscussing now what we have. I would not try a snow job on the hon. gentleman, Mr~ Speaker.

This is the lowest a,.~ount of Supplementary Supply, as I said, 168

February 13, 1973 Tape. 57 Page 3 1B since 1949 and as a percentage it is the lowest amount in dollars since 1960- 1961. So it is the lowest amount in dollars for twelve vears. In 1960-1961 the amount asked for vras three million and ninety-one thousand now it is ninety seven million dollars or 3.2 percent. The hon. gentleman opposite, in some of his last years, was forty-two million in 1970-1971 with fortv-six million last year. However, we do not want to rub that in but lt does show, Mr.

Speaker, that when we stated as they could in the budget speech last May, that the estimates were as accurate humanly be and that we would not. be follovin~ the practise of the hon. gentleman opposite in presenting fictitious estimater. and this was the cas~. So, I have five conies of these here for the House and for the opposition and the details of the seven million dollars nre in these. I might also point ont,Mr.

Sneaker. that the first of the special warrants was is.!';ued in January and not ns in previous years, the House of Assembly would close one day and the next day the House administration would he out tdth specinl warrants. I also have the table here for the information of the members opnosite or the members generally which shows the amount of Supplementary Supply since 1949- 1950~ the gross expenditure and the percentar;e, in case anyone wants to look at that. 'HON. JOSEPH ROUSSEAU: (MEMBER FOR LABRAOOUR WEST): l''r.

Speaker, I wish to tahle the annual report of the Department of Social Services and Rehabilitation for the year ending March 31, 1972. MR. SPEAKER: Notice of motion. MR. ALEXANDER HICK~AN: ~r. Speaker, I give notice that I will tomorrow take leave to introduce the following bills; The Bill-"An Act 'Further to Amend the Judicature Act." The Bill-"An Act Further to Amend the Personal In,iuries Act. " The Bill- 11An Act Further to Amend the Agreement,Ratified, Confirmed 169

February 13, 1973 Tape 58 PK - l and Adopted By and Set Forth in the

Schedule to The Leech Gold Mines Limited Agreement Act, 1964 and To Hake Certain Statutory Provisions Relating To the Agreement. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to present a resolution - notice of a resolution.

Whereas the present administration claims that they would 1H,1ard contracts for the expenditure of public money only after public tenders have been called: And

whereas contracts involvin~ the expenditure of substantial sums of money have been awarded to Mr. George McLean and/or companies in which he is involved including NACOH Limited without any puhlic tenders having been called~ And

whereas the present administration claimed thnt they would not indulge in any practices whereby the puhlic interest of the province would conflict with the private interests of any other hody; And

whereas Mr. George McLean has been and continues to he with and without remuneration an adviser to the P.C. Party of Newfoundland during the two most recent provincial general elections mid during the federal election of October 1972; And

whereas it appears that substantial sums of money have been paid to Mr. McLean and/or his associated companies in advance of the performance by him of such work as they have contracted to perform: And

whereas there are presistent reports about the inferior quality of the work being produced for the government by Mr. McLean; And

whereas the Premier may have misled the House of Assembly in connection with these matters - MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, not by way of resolution can that allegation be made in this House. I would say that the body of the resolution it.self may be in order but a resolution - I am speaking on a point of order. But a resolution of this nature, the recitals of it are argumentative but certainly in no way can the honourable member or any member of this House accuse any .170

February 13, 1973 n Tape 58 PK - 2 other member, be it the Premier or anyone else,of mislcadinp: the House. HR. ROBERTS: fin a point of order. The honourahle gentleman did not accuse the Premier of misleading the House. He said, "may haven. May is the subjunctive - s-u-~-j-u-n-c-t-i-v-e. Mr. Speaker, ! submit, Sir. AN l~~}JfHEF:R ·. Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! rm. RO_B.fRTS: To the point of order, Mr.

Speaker, I submit that until the resolution has heen presented to the House at which stage Your Honour will take it either take it under advisement or rule it in order or out of order as Your Honour sees fit, Lt is an attempt to gag the opposition we nre seeing again from the arrogant House Leader~ I submit. Mr. Speaker. that my colleaeue should be allowed to present the resolution; the point of order is factious. HON. G. OTTENHEIMER: (MH'ISTER OF EDUCATION): May I speal; on n point of order, Mr. Speaker? Mr. Speaker, in these lessons of logic and spelling from the hon.

Leader of the Opposition, the subjunctive is the mood of doubt; "whereas he may have." It is an imputation: that the Premier may have. This imputation is out of order, which makes the entire resolution, as now submitted, out of order. I would sugAest, Mr. Speaker, that the procedure would he that the resolution is out of order, as now worded. The honourable gentleman can reword it and place it again tomorrow. MR W. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, may I speak to the point of order? Mr.

Speaker, to confront the problem, to confront the point of order which has heen raised directly, without any specious logic or anything, I would submit, Your Honour, if the books be looked up, and I do not Have a citation here at the moment, that it is in order for a resolution to be brought to the floor of this House which would have the effect of impeaching or the effect of saying that a minister or the government has in fact misled the House, if that is made the subject of a specific resolution. I would submit, Sir, that the point of order made by the hon.

House Leader is not a point of order in fact if the authorities be looked up. 171

February 13, 1973 Tape 58 PK - 3 HR. SPEAKER: I have some reservations about the resolution as such, however I shall let the honourable member continue and accept the resolution itself and rule on it after. MR. NEARY: And

whereas the Premier Why have misled the House of Assembly in connection with these matters; And

whereas the public interest requires and demands that these matters be thoroughly investigated;

Now therefore, Mr~ Speaker, may it be resolved that a select committee of eight members be appointed to investigate into and report upon the matters set forth above and any other w~tters incidentally thereto the said committee having the power to send for persons and documents and to examine witnesses under oath. Seconded by the Leader of the Opposition. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, we have heard today the honourable Minister of Mines and Energy has resigned the post of Chairman of Committees and Deputy Speaker.

Under the Standing Order (43) of the House a new deputy speaker may only be elected after the conclusion of the throne speech. MR. ROBERTS: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, that Standing Order was amended last year. MR. M..ARSRi\I.L: I do not believe., Mr. Speaker~ I think last year - MR. ROEFRTS: It was amended last year. MR. HARSHA.LL: When the point arose, Hr. Speaker, I think we elected the previous deputy speaker by leave of the House, which I am now seeking. NR. ROBERTS: I think we brought in a motion last year, where was it? MR. MARSHALL: No it was not. MR.

SPEAKER: I think as the honourable member has suggested, it was by lea,1e of the House. The amendment as such was not made. ~OBERTS: It was drafted 172

Fehruary 13, 1973 Tape No. 58 PK-4 MR MARSHALL, We seek leave of the House now, any"W'ay, Mr. Speaker, to the election, in the absence of the hon. the Premier and with leave of the House - the hon. Premier, I might add for the edification of the honourable gentlemen on the other side, is confinerl, unfortunately~ to his home. He is ill with the flu~- In his absence, I would move that the honourable the member for Port au Port District to take the chair of this House as Chairman of Committees and Deputy Speaker. MR. SPFAKER: Is it by leave, agreed? ALL HON. 1,-ffMBERS: Agreed. HR.

SPF.A.KFR ~ Ap.:reed. 1t is moved and seconded that the honourable the member for Port au Port shall he Deputy Speaker and Chairman of Committees. MR. STAGG: Hr. Speaker, I felt rather conspicuous for the last couple of days wearin~ this outfit. I fraciously accept the office of Deputy Speaker. I look hack on my two predecessors. my immediate predecessor who is now the Minister of Hines and Energy and his predecessor who is now a judge of the District Court. I say that I will prohahly he satisfied to be the president of a small university located somewhere near ~tephenville. Thank you. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR.

NEARY: Mr. Speaker~ I ask leave of the House in accordance with Standing Order (23) that the regular business of the House be adjourned to discuss a definite matter of public importance namely~ the eight month old strike at the fish plant in Bonavista. The present administration, Sir, showed little hesitanc? in throwing several million dollars into Burgeo immediately before a provincial election. Does the Bonavista crisis, Mr. Speaker, have to continue two or three more years to the eve of an election?

Or should it not be honourably resolved here and now in this House today,before the long-suffering citizens of Bonavista have to endure more bleak hopeless 173

February 13, 1973 Tape 58 PK - 5 months of misery completely abandoned by the government to which every Newfoundlander - HR.MARSHALL: On a point of order. The rule is clear, Standing Order (23) says Your Honour, he then that is,the rnemf1er1 hands a written statement of the matter proposed to be discussed to the Speaker. The honourable the member - MR. ROBERTS: Inaudible. HR. ?>fARSHALL: if the honourahle the Leader of the Opposition would afford me the courtesy of finishing then he can address Your Honour. Hr. Speaker, 174

February 13, 1973 Mr. Marshall. Tape no. 59 Page l - HRH the hon. member for Bell Island is in his statement, in fact, protracting a debate of it. He is to give a statement of the nature of the matter which he wishes the business of the House to he suspended for, to Your Honour, who takes the appropriate action under Standing Order {23). The hon. member for Bell Island is now in the process of p,iving a general debate and harangue against the government under the guise of giving this particular statement to Your Honour. MR. W.N. ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, to that point of order, if I may, Sir, it is quite obvious that the hon. member for Bell Island intends to hand a written statement or a written copy of the resolution he is moving to Your Honour so that point I would submit, Sir, is specious.

The other point, Sir, raised by the honourable House Lender, as to the words in which the honourable member may couch his statement or introduce his statement, his resolution, is quite clenr from past practices in this House and from the authorities that a met:lber is allowed to give background information leading up to the reason why he is asking for the adjournment of the House to discuss a de.finite matter of urgent public importance.

The fact that the hon. member for Bell Island may use words which the honourable House Leader docs not like or to use a tone of voice which he does not like are completely irrelevant to that procedure, Your Honour. MR. SPEAKER: I would ask the hon. member for Bell Island to continue. MR. NEARY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I think I was down to almost the end of the paragraph, Sir, "Where I said the citizens of Bonavista have to endure more bleak hopeless months of misery. completely abandoned by the government to which every Newfoundlander, Mr.

Speaker, and every group of Newfoundlanders should be able to look for help in their hour of tribulation. MR. ROBERTS: Hear! Hear! MR. SPEAKER: While I agree that the matter in question is of public importance, I feel that honourable members shall have ample opportunity 175

February 13, 1973 Hr. Speaker. Tape no.59 Page 2 to debate this in the: debate on the Speech from the Throne and I understand that the delegation is to meet with the hon. Minister of Justice and the hon. member for Bonavista South later today. Maybe this will be the beginning of a solution to the problem so that these conditions I feel do not warrant the adjournment of the business of this honourable House, at this time. MR. E.W. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, before we proceed with Orders of the Day, may I direct a question to the hon. Minister of Finance.

In view of the devaluation of the American dollar, can he inform the House whether or not this will have any affect on the products produced at the Labrador Linerboard Mill or our fish going into the United States or blueberries - can you inform the House if this will hnve any detrimental affect? HR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, of course what. the ultimate effect of the devaluation of the American dollar is going to be is not yet known. The answer to the honourable gentleman's question would depend on what happens to the Canadian dollar.

When the situation ls clarified more, I will r,ivc ,;ome information to the House, I have already asked my officials to check Lt. I think it will be a day er two before we know what is going to happen to the Canadian dollar. HR. NEARY: Hr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the hon. Minister of Social Assistance, I think it is. I would like to ask the honourable minister, Hr. Speaker, if Hr. Terry Trainor, who is mentioned in the

article in yesterday's "Telegram", P.C. Annual Meet is set for April, if this Terry Trainor, mentioned in this

article is the same Terry Trainor who is the minister's executive assistant? MR. MURPHY: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I ask - MR. HURPJIY: Do you really want an answer to that'? HR. NEARY: (Inaudible). MR. MURPHY: At the present time, it is the same gentleman but very shortly he will be resigning at the annual meeting, that is any connection he has with the P. C. Association. 176

February 13, 1973 Tape no. 59 HR. NEARY: He is goinr, to resign? HR. MURPHY: Yes, they are different from the pole cats the Liberals put in. They still retain their posts - J:iR. ROBERTS: In other words the minister's executive assistant is then in Gander at a political meeting. I am not saying i.t i.s wrong. We are just trying to ftnd out, MR. WJRPJIY: HR. ROBERTS: _t!R. MURPHY: MR. ROBERTS: next thing. MR. MURPHY: HR. SPEAKER: I thought it was the hockey r,,1.me lnst night - It is the same Terry Trainor, (Inaudible). Now he wi 11 be out at the bingo games the Now there is n wise man. Order please! HR.

HURPJIY: Oh, 1 thought it wns the hockey game in Gander the week before. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! I remind honourable members that the questions should be short and to the point and so nhould the answers. 177

February 13, 1973 Tape no. 59 HR. NEARY: Hr. Speaker, I am not quite sure what the answer was. Is Mr. Trainor going to resign from the Progressive Conservative - •.~Wm:~. oo!~hu~siped. H.11.. NEARY: He has resigned. MR. MURPHY: As far as I know. MR. NEARY: But he has been involved in political activities? _!!R. HUW!!Y: He has~ yes. How long are we in Confederation? MR. NEARY: Who is the honourable minister's executive assistant? tlR. MURPHY: Always a good Tory. Page 4 MR. NEARY: There is no such thing as a good Tory. There is no such thing as a good Tory. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, a question for the hon. Minister of Justice who seems to be - I do not know if he is hanr,ing outside havinr, a cigarette or not. AN HON. MEMBER: I think he is meeting with the - }fR, ROBERTS: Well mnybe he is meeting with the Bonavista - then perhaps any one of the innumerable honourable ministers on the other side could answer it. There are no less than six policemen, Sir, on the precincts of this House today, members of the cons tabuL.1ry, why are they here? Who ordered them here?

Are we being protected against the fishermen from Bonavista? ! want to know who - the honour.able gentlemen of Babb Construction can keep quiet. Mr~ Speaker> do I have the right to ask a question or not, Sirl MR. SPEAKER: Order please! I would like to remind the honourable member that when addressing other members I they should be addressed as the hon. member for such and such a district. MR. ROBERTS: MR. SPEAKER: Do I have the right to ask a question? Go ahead. MR.

ROBERTS: Thank you, Sir~ May I again ask(the Minister of Justice is not here) any one of the members of the ministry why (normally there are two police­ men in this building, Sir. One is stationed outside the door of the Chamber 178

February 13, 1973 Mr. Roberts. Tape no, 59 Page 5 and the other is usually stationed in the main lobby) there are s:ix policemen? There were at least six here this afternoon. I want to know who ordered them to be here, Sir? When I asked the gentlemen in question they said thev, of course, received orders from their superior authority and I want to know if we are being protected against the fishermen from Eonavista? The ministry can answer or not as they wish. MR, MARSHALL: Hr. Speaker, prior to the departure of the hon.

Minister of Justice to meet with the delegation from Bonavista, he mentioned to me the fact that this matter mnv corne up and he instructed me that 1 could give the assurance to this honourable House, which I now give, that neither the Minister of Justice nor his deputy nor any person in connection with the government has given anv order with respect to police protection in connection with the question of the honournble member. We are not i.n the habit, not yet anyway, of requirinf!, police protection. MR. ROBERTS: A supplementary 0uestion, Mr. Speaker.

I thank the honourable gentleman, Would he be good enough to ennuire (I think it is a matter of the privileges of the House) then who in the constabulary gave that order and on what grounds it was given and report back to this House? MR. MARSHALL: Tiie matter, Hr. Speaker - I do not think th.at there was any drove of secret servicemen or anything descendinp, upon us. Obviously, if the hon. Leader of the Opposition would refrain, Mr. Speaker - AN HON • MEMBER: himself. He does not want an answer. He just wants to listen to MR. MARSHALL: If the honourable member does not want an answer - MR.

ROBERTS: If the honourable gentleman does not wish to answer, I shall now ask the minister again - we will have further debate on it, the government having police in and if they are responsible. Hr. Speaker, I ask the Minister of Municipal Affairs - MR. CROSBIE: Is the honourable gentleman saying that the honourable minister 179

February 13, 1973 Mr. Crosbie. Tape no. 59 Page 6 here is lying when he says that the government had the police in. The honourable minister re:pHed that the government did not have the police in, Mr. Speaker. MR. ROBERTS : No, Hr. Speaker, I am not say:inr, that. I said yesterday that the honourable gentleman was lylnp.. HR. CROSBIE: We are not gagging the opposition. You are making us gagged with your disgusting behaviour. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! I must remind honourable members again about que.s tions and answers to such questions, MR. ROBERTS: Hr.

Speaker, if I may, I nm not saying that the honourable gentleman is lying. I am saving that the government nre responsible for the actions of the constabulary. Does the hon. Minister of Finance deny that? MR. CROSBIE: I deny - HR. ROBERTS: The Newfoundland Constabulary answer to the government of this province. Does the honourable gentlem.nn deny that they nre responsible for the actions of them? MR~ CROSBIE: Yes but - MR. ROBERTS: You do! MR. CROSBIE: It is whether there was an order for them to send policemen - MR. ROBERTS: I agree! 1 got an answer to that and I accept it. Now. Mr.

Speaker, I ask the honourable gentleman if he 180

February 13, 1973 Tape 60 JM - l would undertake to find out vho gave the order because somebody gave an order to send the police in this building today. It may have been a reasonable order and it may not. The ministery dismissed it, well that is fine. They will answer. Now, Mr. Speaker, if I may ask the hon~ Minister of Municipal Affairs, the gentleman from the District of Gander, a question I earlier mentioned I would be asking him, could he please state the position of the government with respect to the petition submitted today by the hon. gentleman from St.

John's South requesting the intervention of the government in the matter of the, call it the Atlantic Place or Crosbie Complex, the development in downtown St. John's. MR. COLLINS: Yes, ttr. Speaker, I cannot give a very definite answer and I am sure the Leader of the Opposition would not expect me to as I just received the petition this afternoon. Certainly the debate which has followed has been useful and I would suspect that we will be makin~ a decision on it possibly tomorrow. MR. ROBERTS: But I do not know if I understood the minister.

Did he say that we had received a position this afternoon because the ministers who spoke - MR. COLLINS: The petition was presented - MR, ROBERTS: The petition, I am sorry! Okay, thank youJ MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker,whom do I direct a question to when the minister I want to ask the question of is not in the House? The House Leader? A.~ HON. MEMBER: Wait until he comes back. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, do we have to get seat belts to keep the ministers in the House? They are getting their $21~000 a year, Sir. They spend enough time roaming around the world. They should be able to spend a few hours in the House.

Sir, I want to address a question - AN HON, MEMBER: (Inaudible), MR. SPEAKER: Order please~ If the hon. member wishes to ask a question 181

February 13, 1973 Tape 60 JM - 2 he should place it on the order paper or direct it to a minister present or wait until he returns. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman has ask of Your Honour a direction as to whom he should address a question in the absence of the minister. Ministers come and ministers go as the hon. member from St. John's Centre should rem.ember. Some have already gone, I am looking at two now. So, Mr. Speaker, could Your Honour indicate the answer? AN HON. MEMBER: We are looking at three. MR. ROBERTS: We are looking at three~ No we are looking at one, two, three, four, five. Mr.

Speaker, could Your Honour give my colleague some guidance1 HR. SPEAKER: Well, I do not know if my ruling is a ruling as such but I suggest that the hon. member wait for another day if it is possible or direct it to the House Leader or put it on the order paper. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, may I ask another question? The Premier yesterday undertook to find out some information with respect to a statement he made which I believe to be false and incorrect, I wonder if the Government House Leader has any information in the absence of the Premier or if one of the Premier's innumerable assistants can assist us.

The Premier made a statement, Sir~ I ask him about it and he said he did not have the information and he would try to obtain it. Has any­ thing been done or not? I am referring of course to the statement that the opposition used Information Newfoundland. MR. MARSHALL: I know, Mr. Speaker, that the hon. the Premier has looked into that as he conscientiously loOks into everything that comes up in this hon~ House. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: Order please! MR. ¥.AR.SHALL: Mr. Speaker, I shall not answer that question.

I am not bound under the rules and I will not reply to the ignoramuses on the other side who will not allow me to reply. 182

February 13, 1973 Tape 60 JM - 3 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member does have the right to be heard in silence. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, now a point of personal privilege which I raise in the sa~e spirit as the hon. gentleman has iust mude his remarks. There are rulings in the books. We may all be ignoramuses, all forty-two of us but hon. gentlemen are not allowed to call each other ignoramuses or ignorami or whatever the word is. Perhaps the hon. gentleman could be directed to withdraw the remark. There are rulings and this has been argued in this House 153 times just with respect to the hon. gentleman for St.

John's East Extern alone. You could call an hon. member '1stupid 11 as is the hon. gentleman for St. John's East Extern but I do not think ignoramuses - MR. MARSHALL: That is all right thenJ" Mr. Speaker, - MR. ROBERTS: Would the hon. gentleman just withdraw? Let him be sarcastic. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, with leave of the hon. Leader of the Opposition, the appellation of stupid fits just as well so I withdraw the previous remark. Now, Mr. Speaker, the hon. the Premier when he has recovered will answer that question quite adequately at the time when he is here in the House which will be shortly we hope. MR.

ROBERTS: The time will come, ORDERS OF THE DAY: On motion, a bill, 11An Act Further To Amend The Assignment Of Book Debts Act,1' read a first time, ordered read a second time tomorrow. On motion, a bill, 11An Act Respecting Persons In An Intoxicated Condition In Public Places,JJ read a first time, ordered read a second time tomorrow. On motion, a bill, "An Act Further To A'!lend The Companies Act," read a first time, ordered read a second time tomorrow. On motion, a bill, 11An Act To Amend The Quieting of Titles Act, 11 read a first time, ordered read a second time tomorrow. 183

February 13, 1973 Tape 60 JM - 4 On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Justices Act," read a first time, ordered read a second time tomorrow. On motion, a bill, 11

An Act To Amend The Family Courts Act," read a first time, ordered read a second time tomorrow. On motion, a bill, 11An Act Respecting The Department Of Rehabilitation And Recreation, H read a first time, ordered read a second time tomorrow. 184

February 13, 1973 Tape 61 On motion, a bill, "An Act Respecting The Guranteeing By The Crown Of Certain Bonds, Debentures And Loans And Respecting The Making Of Certain Loans By The Crown," read a first time~ ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion, a bill, 0

An Act Respecting The Department Of Transportation And Communications, 11 read a first time. ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. ROWE(W.N.): Mr. Speaker, I would like to draw Your Honour 1 s attention there is no quorum in the House. JM - 1 MR. SPEAKER: The clerk would like to count the House, please. Carry on. On motion. a bill, "An Act To Amend The Protection Of Animals Act,u read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion, a bill~ "An Act Further To Amend The City Of St. ,John's Act/' read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

On motion, a bill, "An Act Respecting The Termination Of Employment Of Substantial Numbers Of Persons In Certain Industries," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow, On motion, a bill, 11An Act Further To Amend The Employment (Notice Of Termination) Act, 1969, 11 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Wild Life Act/' read a first time, ordered read a second time on to~~rrow. On motion, a bill, 0

An Act To Amend The St. Clare's Mercy Hospital (Incorporation) Act, 1960,tl read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion, a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Maintenance Act, 11 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion, a bill, 11

An Act Respecting Tenancies Of Residential Premises, 11 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. 185

February 13, 1973 Tape 62 PK - 1 On motion a bill, i,An Act Respecting Unsolicited Goods And Unsolicited Credit Cards,H read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion a bill, nAn Act Respecting The Ref:;istration And Regulation Of Automohile Dealers And The Salesman Of Such Dealers," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion a bill, "An Act Respecting The Registration And Regulation' Of Credit Reporting Agencies," read a first time, ordered read a seeond time on tomorrow. ADDRESS IN REPLY MR. SPEAKER: The honourable the rnemher for St. George's. MR~ A. DUNPHY: Mr.

Speaker and the members of the honourable House of Assembly I want to stress at th~ outset and throughout my remarks I am qualified suppo~t of the very learned and comprehensive document presented here in this honourable Honse for our consideration, commonly referrPJ to as thE speech from the rhrone. In my opinion, Mr. Speaker, it is a forthright account of the actfvities of our government over the past year and at the same time it contains the posture of this government with respect to the future. on hoth a short and long term basis. As you know, Mr.

Speaker, I have the honour to represent one of the most historic districts, the District of St. George's which I like to think of as a mircocosm of the entire province. For this great district contains within its boundaries an abundance of farmlands, tremendous timber stands and forest resources, prolific fish in diverse species ell along its shore.

Because of its position on the extreme western shore of our province together with its magnificent scenery offers very important and very exciting and very profitable tourist development opportunities, I therefore submit to you, Mr.Speaker, that Almighty God in his wisdom has been extremely generous to my district. And that the necessary ingredients to reap the benefits of the great wealth in such abundance in the District of St. George's is well planned development programme 186

February 13, 1973 Tape 62 PK -L postured by a well organized govenunent will always. and to me, Mr. Speaker, this is of the utmost importance, always in consultation with the people who live in the district. It is for this reason I am so encouraged and even inspired by the very excellent speech from the throne. Since it contains such well considered approaches LO implement suitable development of our resources while at the same time it further contains outlines of ways and means for our retired citizens to enjoy the facilities of its home for the ap-e.d programme.

It sets out plans to provide much improved recreational programmes and facilities for the youth of our province. 1t pursues its commitment to further develop nnd expand education curricula facilities and opportunities at botl· the academic and vocational school level. Finally in its social programme it envisages more and better forms of assistance for those of our citizens affiliated with failing health or who have heen unable to work because of misfortune or whatever circumstances. Mr.

Speaker, I am interested and very encouraged to note that painstaking care this government have taken to extract the most profitable returns from oil, mineral and other offshore resources since these safeguards may very well be of great importance to my district particularly as they are to the province generally in the foreseeable future. Mr.

Speaker, not the least provision in the speech is its elaboration on financing accommodations now available to those throughout our province who have special talents or schemes which if unable to qualify for support from conventional lending institutions will nevertheless be not thwarted if they have a legitimate basis. I believe these agencies, of course I am referring to the Newfoundland and Labrador neveloprnent Corporation and the Rural Development Authority, are conceived to respond to the many 187

February 13, 1973 Tape 62 PK - 3 cottage industries referred to frequently hy our honourable Premier in w~ny of his addresses and public pronouncements. I see in these agencies a splendid task for many small enterprises which will in turn foster even more of them. It is often? Hr. Speaker, the results of many such small developments growing and expanding that producP real and lasting wealth in terms of transcending dollars and cents. I was also gratified, Mr. Speaker, to note the concern expressed regarding the growing need for port facilities to service the Eastern Seaboard. My gratification of course, Hr.

Speaker, is because the great port of St. George's is so strategically situated geop;raphically to provide this service. Indeed, Mr. Speaker, I have often lamented the irony that across the bay at Stephenville in the District of Port au Port represented so ably in this honourable House by my colleague, who is just next door here. Considerable work and monies were required to provide a port to accommodate the shipping there while at St. George I s we have the depth. with the aid of some dredging, the space and general conditions suitable for a magnificent port development.

It may be and it is my sincere hope that the situation will turn out in the end to be fortuitous for St. George's. For the land services there include railway connections, fresh water, flat land for terminals etc..,will naturally lend themselves to port development as such rather than simply the restrictive facilities that are possible at Port Harmon. 188

Fehruary 13, 1973 Tape No. 63 N;! - l MR. DUNPHY: I have referred to the timber and forestry resources throughout my district and I look forward, very eagerly to the Report of the Task Force on Forestry. I naturally expect a continuation of the programme of providing access roads to forests, particularly in the Highland Heatherton Area, the Codroy Valley and St. George's. It will be an immense benefit to the people living in these parts of my district. I was also very impressed, Nr. Speaker, with the concept of the equipment banks for our farmers.

I am sure it is well known to every member of the House that the Codroy Valley and the Highland Heatherton Area are the best fanning areas in the whole Maritime Region. Co-operation, co-ordination, and consultation are the keys, in my opinion, to expand the output of the long and neglected and the very fertile part of our province. I am quite certain that one of the equipment hanks will be located somewhere between the Jeffries-Robinsons Area and the Valley itself. But even the setting of this much needed facility can only be determined properly after consultation with the farmers themselves.

The new agricultural complex, now located in Corner Brook, has already produced an epitaph to all types of farming and I see important growth in the fanning industry this year and in the immediate future. Market conditions for root crops have become more and more favourable during the past year. These facilities will most assuredly enhance the viability of what most certainly has been a marginal industry during recent years. Mr. Speaker, my district of St. George•s has made a very significant contribution to the fishing industry throughout history. Indeed, Mr.

Speaker, I believe we have more species of fish than any other area I can think of. It goes without saying, Hr. Speaker, that our fishermen and their families have worked strenuously and often bravely to produce a harvest that is marketable and profitable for their own benefit and for the good of all those who enjoy fish 189

February 13, 1973 Tape No. 63 ~)M - 2 MR. DUNPHY: dishes. ------ tfuile I share in their pride in the importance of this great endeavour, I have also appreciated the difficulties of processing, marketing and transportation, necessitated because there are no fish plants as such throughout the entire district. Buyers of green fish come from as fnr away as the United States and Europe to purchase unprocessed fish and while this has been somewhat satisfectory as far as it goes, it does not RO far enough.

What is needed in my district, and needed desperately, are at least one or two fish plants, plants that will process green fish to finished products. I am very pleased to see the government's recognition of the boat building requirernent!l throughout the province. Here again, up until now, the District of St. George's has been by-passed, Codroy, Highlands to Heatherton, St. George's are important fishinp, in both centres, Each are located in the midst of excellent timber resources. Each of these communities would benefit immensely if fish plants and a boat huilding industry were located in the area, 190

February 13, 1Q73. Tape 64, P~ge 1 - apb t'P.. nUNPHY, - --------- . i:1,ei;1ardinp, tourism, ~•r. Spenl,er, I believe rny district has a role to plny which may be inportant to the entire rrovince, After lenvin~ the coast line, the auto-drivinr visitor enters the heartland of our beautiful wooded valleys and roll1nr countryside in the famous Codroy Valley and continues through my district for over one hundred miles, literally over hill ~nd dale.

The Codrov Valley, the Highlands and the Crabt-es River J..ren which is already somewhat developed, the lovely beaches reachinp­ from St. r.eroRe's to Stephenville Crossinr.~ historic Sandv Point, Black Duck nnd its trcnendous fishinp. and hunting, e~ch and Rll h~ve BO much to conJl"lend thenselves, each uni~uely to tourist rlPvelo~ment. F.nch one tells. fW much c1hout itself and ;ihnut all Ne\.•foundl;ind. it is almost mandatory that immediate steps be taken to show them off.

The little community of Gallants, such a thorourhly typical woods centre and yet it is so important, if at all r,ossible care should he taken to leave it unspoiled. I suppose, Hr. Speaker, that each member thinks his district is special in some way or another. I certainly think mine is. I want it to be kno"-T1 and appreciated and even loved by others ~s I do.

To this end, l commit myself to commend any comments realtive to tourism contained in the Speech from the Throne and will he enlistinp: the support of all officials and the honourable 1•inister of Tourism to further develop tourist facilities, accommodations etc. throur.h the district. If any success attends these efforts, each of ,us here and all the people throughout Newfoundland ,;.,ill benefit. As I draw to a conclusion, ~r. Speaker, I refer to another paradox which I lrnow is not isolated to fTlY district.

In the midst of space and timber we have terrihle housing inadequacies throughout the district, but particularly in St. r.eorge's, Steohenville Crossin~. r am very encouraged to know of the new plans to extend loans Fnn 191

February 13, 1973, Tape 64, Page 2 -- anh other assistance to rural communities. 1 believe that this presents yet another rationale to support a lt.'mher inrlustrv i.n tfH-. nrca. :Meanwhile, the consequences of adeouate, rea.sonahle housinf! for every family almost as a hasic right is inestimable. socially, culturally and econonically never more sr, than right in the District of St. George's. I offered my services in assistinp the honourable ~linister of Housing in implementing this very wordinp: of the Throne Speech as it applies to housinp:.

I welcome the rernnrks in the Speech, respomlinr to an acute need worsenin[!' as the inflationary process continues. },iy main concern, Mr. Speaker~ with this part of the government 1 s plan is j';.Ctting on with it,as I am sure nany, many people throughout the island feel as well. Nr. Speaker,! liken myself to the spirit of this most .aluminatinr: Throne Speech, inasmuch as the past year was for rnc and for most of us gathered here. a year of review, reassessment and ;,lanninr. I have never felt more representative of my constituents 192

February 13, 1973 Tape 65 JM - 1 than I do when I say. Let us proceed. Let us carry on. Let us get on with the job~ I welcome most enthusiastically the plan for progress contained in the speech. I am very proud to be associated with it and look forward most eagerly to carry it out. MR. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, first I would like to conf!ratulate the hon. member from St. John's South and the hon. member from Grand Falls for the capable manner in which they spoke in drafting a committee on the Gracious Speech from the Throne. Once again, Sir, it proves to this hon.

House and to the people of Newfoundland that the members on this side of the House are sincere and dedicated men and we are trying to restore the dignity that this hon. House once enjoyed. Then once and for all the name callin~ started in the last session and is continuing on in this one. Mr. Speaker, I would like to join with my colleagues in welcoming to this hon. House the member for Labrador South.

Having heard so many f!_ood things about him it was a pleasure to meet him in person last November. 1 know he must be more than impressed with the way the other members of the opposition have conducted themselves since this House started, Sir. I feel sure he will represent the New Labrador Party in a way befittinr, to this hon. Chamber and if after he is fed up with the foolishness that have been going on here on the other side of the House he will see fit to come over and join one of the greatest teams that Newfoundland has known. Mr.

Speaker, the Gracious Throne Speech states that 1972 was a record year for the general economic growth and provincial products. Recently the Dominion Bureau of Statistics stated that 1400 new jobs were created in Newfoundland last year. Not bad when we are always reminded by the hon. member for Bell Island that Tory times are hard times. Mr. Speaker, the only thing hard about Tory times is getting qualified men to fill the skilled jobs that this ~overnment have created since taking office. We should adopt the slogan of less talk and more work 193

February 13, 1973 Tape 65 JM - 2 and get on with the job because God knows we have heard enough from the last administration, jobs, jobs and more _iobs. Mr. Speaker, in restructurinR the government I had hoped the Premier in his wisdom would have created for me the Department of Underground Development and naturally I would have been appointed as its minister. I could guarantee the Premier that unlike the ex-Premier I would have created two graves for every reember of the opposition. Mr.

Speaker, already as a result of the restructuring and creation of the Department of Rural Development under the capable leadership of the member for Trinity South one can see the beneficial results as thousands of new jobs have been created at a very low cost as compared with those created in Long Harboure 194

February 13, 1972 Tape no. 66 Page l - MRW Mr. Speaker, it is good to see in the Throne Speech that a programme whereby our province will receive the maximum benefits from our natural resources, help for the fishermen and the maximum benefits from our natural products and resources; that we, the people, will reap the benefits. Something must be lacking when the housewifo has to purchase in the supermarkets fish sticks and fish cakes produced in Nova Scotia and caplin packed in Norway or Sweden. Sir, I am sure that there is more room for improvenents in our blueberry industry.

I know this is a subject dear to the heart of the hon. member from Bonavista North, apart from presenting petitions. I guess he will join with Ray Guy and suggest or something to that effect that we produce square blueberries. Mr. Speaker, I have been concerned for sometime, expecting every day to come under attack as to conflict of interest. I assure the honourable membet:s of the opposhion that none of mv equipment has ever been employed or been used by this r,overnment and I hope the need will not arise in the future. Hr.

Speaker, I notice the grave concern of this government for the necessitv to clean up our barrens, beaches and streams. I have been faced with this problem on many occasions in mv district, especiallv in the neighbouring countryside of the municipal government.

References have also been made in the Tiirone Speech that the new Department of Rehabiliation and Recreation will respond to the activities and needs of the youth in this province, Hany of us are aware of the great facilities that the previous administration were going to provide, prior to the 1971 election, This is very much in evidence in wy district and now is causing a great concern to the different sports commissions. It is a great financial burden to them. Many of the outdoor rinks, playgrounds and sports fields are not completed and it will cost thousands of dollars to have them completed.

I am very glad to say that in the near future the honourable minister vill visit and talk and act in the district with these committees. 195

Fehruary 13, 1973 Tape no. fi6 Page 2 Hr. Speaker, 1 was surprised to hear the hon. member for Bell Island trash out at this administrat