Volume 3 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 3rd. Session VERBATIM REPORT TUESDAY, MARCH 26, 1974 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL ·" Number 33

March 26, 1974 The House aet at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker iu the Chair • . I MR. SPEAKER: Order please! Tape uo. 854 Pagel - MW PETITIONS: MR. W. N. ROWE : Mr, Speaker, I ask the leave of the House to present a petition which I received today from over 300 voters of the Town of .Fleur de Lys in my District of White Bay South. Th~ burden of the petition concerns the upgrading and/or paving of the road from Fleur de Lys to Baie Verte.

It reads as follows: ''We the undersigned,concemed residents of Fleur de Lye, wish to protest the deplorable condition of the road from Fleur de Lys to Baie Verte, This road is a 1111ch travelled road for people working at Advocate Hines Limited, at the M. J. Boylen Hospital and most of all the three bus-loads of school children who have to travel this road daily. Approximately three years ago a sum of money was set aside to upgrade this road. Some work was done and for the past two years, (a significant period of time, Mr.

Speaker) we have received nothing but the promises of a rock crusher, Finances should not be a problem since approximately $114,000 was left over from the inoney allocated three years go. "Please a~cept this peitition,and as our representative do all in your power to either have this road paved or if not upgraded." The facts cited in the petition, Sir, are basically correct.

I believe it is not three years ago but four years ago that an allotment of money was made by the Department of Highways at that time, and I think the matter was mentioned in the House of Assembly here,~ that a public commitment was made to the people of Fleur de Lye that this road would be upgraded and, of course, eventually paved, although no money for paving was cut out in that particular allocation of funds, I do not want to become argum.entive, Sir, but I just state this as a fact .Perhaps the ~1iniater of Transportation might have something 2611

March 26. 1974 Tape no. 854 Page 2 to say about that about what I am saying. ·When the present administration came into office, for some reason or other this allocation or the unspent portion of the allocation was disallocated, if that be a correct use of terms,and no further work was done on the road. A similar situation happened with regard to a road from Sop's Arm to Jackson's Arm, also in ray district,on the · other side of the bay. Work was going ahead on that road and when this administration got into power. work was stopped and the allocation was applied to other work or was not spent at all.

I support, Sir, the prayer of this petition wholeheartedly and I ask that the government. particularly the Minister of Transporation and Communications, take this petition under advisement and hopefully, when the main estimates are brought into the House. we can see an adequate amount of capital money to see the work resumed on this road from Fleur de Lys to Baie Verte once more. I ask, Sir, that the petition be received by this honourable House and referred to the department to which it relates. MR. H. YOUNG: behalf of some 2612 Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on

·; . March 26, 1974. Tape 855 RH - 1 voters in the town of Shearstown. This petition, Sir, has already had some coverage in the press. The prayer of _the petition, Sir, is, I do not know if it iff well stated or definitely stated, "We the undersigned, residents of Shearstown West and Butlerville wish to brin~ to the attention of our Provincial Department of llirhways the absolutely deplorable con­ dition of the hiphway,approximately two miles in length,extendin~ from New Road Hill to Butlerville.

The said piece of road is unfit and un- safe for vehicle or traffic, the hup,e washouts and sharp potholes knawed out of the chipseal, an experinental Government job of 1962 which failed as a form of pavement. There is a serious threat to the tires, sprin~s and other ~arts of cars of the citizens of this area. The second fact. that persons trying to theirdarnest to curb away from the bad spots in the road create a real danger to human life especially to small children. We feel, as t find, that ~omething should be done.

If nobody will make the movenent to fill these hollows with asphalt.then we humbly solicit and ask that the roads be filled with sand and gravel and bad spots graded down. Therefore we humbly petition whosoever is responsible to do some­ thing,for God sake,before a serious accident occurs on this road, before the people have to spend their hard~arned money on costly repairs -on--, car jobs just because we are being neglected and discriminated against! So, to repeat, let us have some action or let someone in power give · some consideration to our plight." Humbly and respectably · sumitted. • Now, Sir, I think this

section of road in Shearstown is a victim · of liberalism. Shearstown is in the district of Harbour Grace. It also comes under the town council of Bay Roberts. I have done some hackwork on this, groundwork,and I find that the road is not the respon­ sibility of the highways nor is it the responsiblity of Municipal. Affairs. Now, I think that the people of Shearstown should have some real explanation. Thank You! MR. ROBERTS : Mr. ~peaker, maybe I could say a word in support of what is a most eloquently worded and eloquently phrased petition.

I am happy to lend our support to it but I was somewhat taken aback by the remarks of the ~entleman from Harbour Grace. If he said he had done some groundwork 2613

March 26, 1974. Tape 855 RH - 2 it is too bad he did not do some road work because I understood him to say that this road is neither the responsiblity of the Department of Hiphways nor of the Department of Municipal Affairs.

I wonder if he ~eanst by that that it is not the responsibility of the Municipality of Bay Roberts: If it be the responsibility of the Municipality of · Bay Roberts, the town of Bay Roberts, . as it may well be, at least in part, then surely what is needed is for the Government to assis ,t the part of the municipality to repair and to pave this road and if the Government's much-vaunted prograrrane of paying half the cost of _paving or upgrading and paving municipal roads is in effect for somewhere other than the Burin Peninsula where,combined witn Jameison, they will sink her yet, then I would like to see it go in this part of Bay Roberts.

The petition is very eloquently worded. It was ineptly present­ ed but that is not the fault of the petitioners, very eloquently worded, and I think it should be heeded and granted. DR. A. T. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to present a petition from the residents of the coUll!lunity of Salmon Cove, district of Carbonear, a community of some 653 people, The prayer of the petition is that the community be incor1:Jorated as a municipality with its own town council and that is functioning under the act of the Department o'f Municipal Affairs. I have pleasure, Mr.

Speaker, in supporting this ap- plication of the residents of Salmon Cove and I think it is indicative of the progress which c0Tr.111unities seem to make when they come under the re~ulations of town councils. I think the evidence of the progress in Carbonear and Victoria, my district, where there are both town councils, has' indicated to the people of Salmon Cove that it is very desirable to he an incorporated area. In Salmon Cove, what we must realize is that it is the delightful co!Tlr.ltmi ty with the well-known Salmon Cove Sands.

This is a very great tourist attraction ;md with the controls that the town council could £':-tert, I am sure that it coulcl be even a More important than the :ittract- ive tourist are:i that it is. I h;tve much pleasure, Mr. Speaker, in supporting 2614

March 26, 1974. Tar,e 855 RH - 3 this petition and ask it to be placed upon the table of the House and referred to the department to which it relates. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for For,o. ,. 2615

March 26, 1974 Tape 856 (afternoon) PK - 1 CAPT. E.W. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the members on this sid~ of the House I strongly support the petition so ably presented by the member for the district. However, I am not too sure whether it is necessary to bring in a petition in this honourable House to have a town incorporated. I feel that it is up to the people of the town to call a public meeting and get the feeling of the people ,and if the majority are in favour of it then of course they make their proper procedure, proper negotiation with the Minister of Municipal Affairs.

However, .having had the petition presented we certainly support it. MOTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Twillingate. MR. H. W. C. GILLETI: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Emergency Compensation Of Employees Act, 1971," HON. W.W. MARSHALL (MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO): Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the Hon. Minister of Mines and Energy I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act To Ratify, Confirm and Adopt An Agreement Made Between The Government And BP Minerals Limited." QUESTIONS MR.

SPEAKER: The honourable Member for St. Barbe North. MR . F. B. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask a question on behalf of the honourable Member for Bell Island who unfortunately ts not in his seat today, Sir. AN HON. MEMBER: ~m.. ROWE , F. B • Inaudible. Would the Acting Premier, Sir, the Minister of Justice, inform the House what steps have been taken to repair the road* on Random Island so that the children can get to school without undue risk to their live!!? HON. T. A. HICKHAN (Acting Premier): Mr.

Speaker, I will attempt to get this informztion for the honourable gentleman this ·afternoon from the Minister of Transportation and Communications, it he 18 26i6

March 26, 1974 Tape 856 (afternoon) PK - 2 in St. John's , or his officials in Gander. r«. ROWE, F. B. A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker, Would the minister attempt to get the answer to the question from the officials of the department concerned if the minister is not in town? MR, HICKMAN: That is Gander, MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Fogo. MR, WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Minister of Justice or in his capacity as Deputy Premier: Can the minister inform the House when he expects to have thereport of the Labrador Commission tabled in this House?

There are a great many persons, especially in Labrador,looking forward to that report. MR. HICKMAN: If the honourable gentleman will recall.I gave the answer to that question last evening. One copy of the report - MR, WINSOR: Inaudible. MR. HICKMAN: No, no, no. It was delivered to the Hon. the Premier by the Chairman of the Commission just before he departed for the BRINCO meetings. It is anticipated that within the next few .. days the report, which is a very voluminous one I am told,will be studied by government and following the practice this administration will report at least to the public and to the House.

MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Leader of the Opposition. HON, E. M. ROBERTS (LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION): Mr. Speaker, while we are on the question of tabling documents, the Minister of Forestry under­ took nearly a month ago to table the r~ort of the or at least the

summary report of the Task Force on Forestry. May I ask him when that in fact is to be made public?. MR. SPEAKER; The Hon. the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. HON. E. MAYNARD (MINISTER OF FORESTRY AND AGRICULTURE): As soon as the report is ready. ORDERS OF THE DAY 0Q motion that the House go into Committee ~f th~ Whole To Consider Certain Resolutions For The Granting Of Supplementary Supply To Her Majesty, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. COHMI'ITEE OF SUPPLY 2617

March 26, 1974 Tape no. 857 Page 1 - MW MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, the committee rose last evening and the minister was in some little difficulty about his medicare expenditures. Now he since then has had the whole evening, the whole night, the whole morning as well as the lunch hour, to go into this. I wonder if he could give us some more information. Just to refresh his mind: As of last evening, we were being asked for about $1 million more on the subhead of expenditure out of which the medicare votes are being paid and there was some confusion as to exactly what it was 'for.

It appeared, as we looked at it I think, Mr. Chairman, it appeared fair to say to that.the money was being used for increased fees but that maybe to draw a conclusion which is not correct4 Really what I want to know at this stage is whether the minister has discovered anything that could help the committee in deciding whether or not to give the government authority to spend this money? DR. ROWE: Mr. Chairman, the amount is the underestimated amount of $~.6 million. The first reason for this is that the medicare commission did underestimate, perhaps one could use the word, grossly underestimated.

They have been using the federal guidelines, which they have used in previous years, of six per cent per year and obviously this past year it has been found to be less than realistic. The main pu1:J>ose of th~ $1.6 million is due to the influx into the province over the past year of fifty-five new physicians of whom the majority worked fee-for-service for most of the year. This resulted in an additional 160,000 claims for new services up to the end of January, 1974.

Of the fifty-fi~e doctors who came into the province last year, the majority of these came early in the year and of those leaving, the majority seemed to leave late in the year, although we had a final increase or stabilization of a total increase of twenty. Over and above the 160,000-claims, the existing physicians,on fee-for­ service put in an amount for 60,000 more claims than the prc~ious year. To take the ~resent figures, the 160,000 new claims for these doctors and the extra 60,000 more claims of the physicians in practice~established, 2618

March 26, 1974 Tape no. 8S7 Page 2 in carrying on during the last year, the 220,000 claims account for the ~ndereatimated $1.6 million. MR. ROBERTS: I thank the minister, Mr. Chairman, but is he -now to say that the fee increase (1 mean I sound pejorative but I do not mean to be) last year did not account for this extra - let me get it straight. Last night the minister used the figure of $1.2 million and then he used the figure of $1.S million and he has just given us the figure of $1.6 million.

Let me begin by asking the minister just bow much have medicare over-:expended their budget as it was presentedr Unfortunately the minister declined to present it in the House , it was not presented but -how much have medicare expended over an~ above their budget? How much are medicare going to spend in the year which ends three or four days from now and how much did they anticipate they would spend on their paying the doctors' fees and what is the different? Let us get that first of all. DR. ROWE: Let me read again: The total amount of 110ney under bu~get was $1.8ffllillion.

The $200,000, as we have explained, bringing it back to the $1.6 that 1 mentioned today; the $200,000 bringing it to the $1.8 million is made up of the employment of additional physicians at the St. John's General, the Central Newfoundland Hospital, the Western Me1110rial Hospital for salaries in lieu of services, $100,000, bringing it down to $1.7 million. The large volume of dental services, in addition to the revision of dental fees, ia $50,000; an increase in the number of sessional clinics in hospitals·, $50,000, which brings us back to the figure I mentioned today of $1.6 million.

The $1.6 million~ made up of the number of claiu I have given indicate~ that the figure of fifty-five new fee for service physicians, who commenced practice during that year - in giving the number of claims that I have outlined. It really means that as the medical services in the province increase so does the provincial part of the expenditure increases. When MCP first came in, we were getting back from Ottawa something like oinety 2619

March 26, 1974 Tape 858 IB-1 six per cent of our costs. This year it is going to be eighty per cent of our costs. As we increase the number of doctors, so the provincial portion will rise. I think that should have pretty well covered the situation as far as the amounts are concerned, Mr. Chairman. MR. ROBERTS: Again I thank the minister, Mr. Chairman.

I think we are all familiar with the fact that medicare which originally wa~ quite a bargain in Newfoundland, we all knew and indeed the projections . prepared, I assume by N.M.A. and by the ' government of the time when medicare became a reality in Newfoundland, indicated that after something like five years we would cease to be gainers and have to start paying for medicare, paying in the sense that we would be laying out more to provide medicare than we would have been laying out to provide the services which were formerly provided by the government before medicare, compulsory, provincewide health care insurance came in.

That is not the issue, What I am trying to get at is a rather staggering miscalculation in the medicare budget. Because the medicare budget this year, the total budget would be of the order of $17 millions. Now, I do not have the precise figure. Indeed I am not sure t~at t _t _· ~s in the estimates. When I was Health Minister I made a point of insisting that it be listed but I think the present minister has taken it out.• I do not know why. Possibly to . hide how much t~e doctors are getting. In any event, the Medicare Care Commission Annual Report would have the figure.

But, it is of the order of $17 million this year going to pay both,the fee-for service doctors but also the salary doctors all of whom are paid by medicare to the extent they are providing insured services within the

definitions of that as laid down in the act and in the regulations. So, on that estimate we have an underestimate of $1.8 million, about ten rer cent. Now, that is very staggering. I would like to know why. For the minister to say there was a great influx is a reason but it is not one that stands up I submit, Mr. Chairman, under examination because I am willing to bet - I do not have the figures here in front· of me., Sir 2620

March 26, 1974 Tape 858 IB-2 but 1_.spent some time at this and I do not think that I am entirely wrong - I am willing to bet that we have had.the last four or five years, each year, fifty-five or sixty new doctors come into practice in this province. I am willing to bet that most of them have been parctice for most of the year. Why? Because doctors come into practice, Mr. Chairman, 1n July and in June.

That is when they finish up their - my brother is a doctor at Roddickton in White Bay North and he entered practice in this province in July because he finished his internship and his qualification procedures in June month. July is only the third month of the government and the medicare financial year. That is quite normal. That has been going on all along. Nor is it unusual that doctors leave late in the year.

So, I would think that the number of new doctor months we have had in Newfoundland, quite a jargon phrase, during the 1973-1974 year.is probably not very much greater than we have experienced the past few years. Now, if that be so, Sir, then the reason does not stand up. The minister cannot bring that forth as the explanation of a ten-per cent underestimate. He has accounted satisfactorily for $100,000,extra staff that the General here in St. John's, Westem Memorial i~-G~tral Newfoundland - $100,000, that is fine.

That is about four salaried doctors or five or three depending on the type of work they are doing and what they are paid. Be can account for about $50,000 or $100,000 by virtue of the new dental fee

schedule and so forth but that still leavea,by his own figures.$1.6 million. He has not given the committee, Mr. Chairman, any explanation. Now, what I put to him is this, that either there was a shaving down of the medicare requests,for whatever reason, that the budget as submitted by the commission was not the budget as it was presented to the House, that there was a shaving down of a million or a million and a half dollars,for whatever reason ,or that the fee

schedule which th~ minister approve ·d and negotiated last year and put into effect has resulted in far greater costs to the people of this province than was anticipated or 2621

March 26, 1974 Tape 858 IB-3 perhaps than was announced. I a1,11 putting these forward as propositions. They may be wrong. If they are wrong, I shall ceTtainly be quite please.d to know that they are wrong but I put them forth as propositions and ask the minist>?r' to address himself to 'them. If he s ·ays that they are wrong, I take his word, Sir, I have no reason not to but I would like him to ex.plain and he has not explatned, Sir, how the Medicare Colllll\ission have been. by $1.6 million overspent. That is a lot of money, Sir. All our doctors have been working at close to a hundred per cent capacity.

So, it is going to be difficult to convince anybody that they are now doing 110 per cent rore work. I think the reason for it is either, as I have said _, the deliberate downgrading of the amount ., I of money, the lessening of the amount of money ·, that was requested by medicare, requested by medicare of the government.,to make up the difference bt'tween what they get from Ottawa 2622 -f',

March 26, 1974 Tape No. 859 NM - 1 and what they must pay out to the doctors under the terms of the agreement or if the fee

schedule was infinitely more generous than the minister led us to believe when he announced it here in this House a year past. DR. ROWE: Now, Mr. Chairman, 1 have already explained that M.C.P. have informed me that they regret that they are grossly under­ budgeted for this year.

The number of claims increase for the period Januaty 1972 to January 1973, for the period 1973-1974, As against 1972-1973, there was an increase of 220,000 claims put in to the Medicare Commission and this increase of 220,000 claims for medical services indicates the reason why the increased expenditure is of the order of $1.6 ~illion - $1,8 million. There is nobody trying to hide anything, Mr. Chainnan. We have nothing to hide.

We have put in our figure of $2.5 million last year but this was found now in relation to the increased number of claims to have been underestimated by $1.8 million because in that time, unknown to th~ people who forecast expenditure in the Medicare Commission, and they were unaware there was going to be an increase of 220,000 claims. They are made up of the 160,000 services by the doctors I have mentioned and the 60."000 claims over and above those for doctors already in practice. If the average claim is $5 to $10, I think you can readily see with 200,000 claims how the amount of money was deteTIDined.

So that is the answer as I have it and as I understand it. MR. ROHERTS: Mr. Chairman, I do not want to pursue this needlessly but · I do want to pursue ~ t to the extent it should be : pursued. Could the t ' \ minister tell us what has been the average increase in claims over the last two or three years on Medicare and could he tell us what increase the commission did allow for? DR. ROWE: Mr. Chairman, I have not got the figures but they worked this year on the basis of the previous year of the six per cent which was laid down by the federal government guidelines and they just told 2623

March 26, 1974 Tape No. 859 NM - 2 me that it was found in the experience of the past year that it is not realistic. In fact when we go to another year we are going to have to be something like the same figures,so they informed me, so I can shed no more information than that.

If the honourable Leader of the ·Opposition would like me to have him meet the officials of Hedicare,who are the same people who worked there in his day, and I am sure he is aware of the Executive Director, the Medical Director, they have not changed their personnel, they have not chan_ged their method of work, I would be quite happy to arrange a meeting with him and ~.C.P. if he should wish to come down and go through their statistics.-~ Bµt the figures that I have been given by them I have no reason to dispute.

If surely the number of increases in medical services through the year has increased by a number of 200,000,that surely is the· reason for the main increase MR. ROBERTS: Well, Mr. Chairman, I would be delighted if the officials wanted to come to see me and if they were permitted by the minister to discuss with me this information, I would be delighted to talk with them and to learn~ I know th~t Mr. Moores and Dr. Knowling and so forth, the personnel have not changed significantly, the executive personnel since I was Minister of Health,.

What has changed is their record of success and I do think it is very shoddy of the minister t-o blame his officials. The whole basis of ministerial government is that ministers are responsible for their officials and - DR. ROWE: Mr. Chairman, I am not saying I do not take responsibility. I am ju~t ~iving the fi~ures that were given tom~ MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, I have the floor and when 1 am done the minister is velcome to say what he wishes. I do think it is shoddy of him and I repeat that it is.

Now I would be deli~hted to meet with the officials,if he wish to ask them to come to see me at any mutually convenient time. I do find it most astounding and if I have the minister's assurance that he would ask his officials, the Medicare officials to meet me, pet:haps Mr. Moores• He is the head man and a 2624

March 26, 1974 Tape No. 859 NM - 3 very competent and able man to my knowledge and to_t~e best of my experience. I would be delighted to let the matter rest for the time being but it is diaturbin~, Sir, that a commission which has over three or four years of experience,I venture to sug~est been pretty dead on in their estimates, pretty close to dead on in their estimates, all of a sudden in a year are ten per cent out. As the ~..inister of Finance last night,in discussing the overall supply,said,the government were one point six per cent on.

I think that is pretty good, that is leaving aside the year of the linerboard mill and all that sort of thing, the experience has been pretty ~ood in this province over the twenty-five years that we have been a province, of supplementary supply. It has been pretty good and all of a sudden we have Medicare, a very large chunk of expenditure, $17 million, $18 million a year being ten per cent out,and that is serious. I do not begrudge a penny of the money and I am not saying that the money was misspent. I do not think it was 2625

March 26, 1974 Tape 860 (afternoon) PK - 1 it was. The fact remains if this committee cannot have confidence in the estimates that are presented then that is a serious matter. I venture to suggest that nowhere else than the Department of Health has there been a ten per cent misestimate, nowhere else has there been a ten per ,cent misestimate. The other amounts in this head I would suggest, Mr. Chairman, are amounts that were not foreseeable. Presumably. We have not talked about the other things in detail yet,have we?

Salary increases,where the government when they made up the estimates had no way to know what salary increases they would have to pay, ~ndeed even as they went into bargaining they did not know and when they concluded bargaining they did not know, so that we can accept, but I am concerned, Sir, about what amounts to a ten per cent underestimate and I think the minister should find out the reason .why because these men, the Medicare Commission in my experience were dead on, and this could be looked at, it could be proven, were dead on in their estimating all of a sudden they make a ten per cent goaf.

Fine, if it is their fault so~ething should be done, if it be not their fault then again something should be done but the matter has got to be looked into. I would be quite happy to conclude,if he would like me to see the officials, I would be happy to see them but until then or until he gives us some explanation.and he has not given us a satisfactory explanation of this great misestimate,then I for one am dissatisfied. I will vote for the money because it has been spent, I have no reason to think it has not been spent properly in accordance with the plan.

It is a pretty heavy charge of incompetence to bring against the minister to say that on this large item of business for which he is responsible in this administration, we had a tert per cent under-. estimate and I am willing to wager that that is the first time in the four or five years of the Medicare Plan that we have had a ten per cent misestimate, a ten per cent underestimate in expenditures. I also would be willing to wager that across the whole .range of government expenditure there has not been a ten per cent misestimate in 2626

March 26, 1974 Tape 860 (Afternoon) PK - 2 the estimates before us now or in the estimates before us in say the last four or five or six years. Those things do not happen in the government, Sir; the civil service are too good, the officials are too goad and as a rule the ministers are too good, It is really up to the minister to take some action to assure the committee and I am afraid he has not done it, at least not to my satisfaction as yet. HON. J, C. CROSBIE (MINISTER OF FINANCE): Mr.

Speaker, the honourable gentleman opposite is making a mountain out of a medicare molehill becaus~ ' the record of the Medicare Commission· is good not only this year but was in previou·s years. If one want to look at what has happened in the past and what is happening now and if we just look at 1966-1967 to date we will see that supplementary supply in 1966-1967 was $54 million. It had nothing to do with the Linerboard Mill. It came to 21.4 per cent of all gross expenditure in that year.

That in 1967-1968 supplementary supply was $54.5 million, for 16,7 per cent of gross expenditure; in 1968-1969 it was $23 million, for seven per cent; 1969-1970 it was $21 million or 6.2 per cent; in 1970-1~71 it was $42,742,000 or 10.6 per cent for the whole budget, not just for anYi one item. In 1971-1972 it was $46.5 million or 8.8 _ per cetl:t of the total gross expenditure. Last year it was $7,646,000 or 1.3 per cent and this year it is $10,380,000 or 1.6 per cent, as a percentage of the gross expenditure. So it is quite obvious, Mr.

Speaker, when one l~oks at those figures,that the honourable gentleman is trying to make a great cause c,lebre, a great case, a great -mountain out of a molehill. The amount of $1.8 million as an underestimate or an additional expenditure under medicare is not a high amount. The minister has explained it in this House repeatedly,last night and today. The additional docton, the additional units of service, the additional fee-for-aervice revision and so on:· .i..t has all been explained. So there is no great issue here.

The minister should be congratulated on the small amount of supplementary supply there is in his department, $5 million, in the second largest spending department of the government, Therefore the rest of this is mere puffery and not really germane. 2627

~arch 26, 1974 Tape No. 861 NM - 1 MR ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, I think the Minister of Health and I have said all we can usefully say at this point, and that is fine, I have said what I have to say and he has said what he has to say; but let me reply to the point made· by the Minister of Finance. I do not quarrel ~th his figures on supplementary supply. I notice the highest years in percentages were the years in which he was a member of the Cabinet,under Mr. Smallwood as Premier. They were somewhat considerably lower when others took up the torch that he had laid down or had taken from him.

But the fact of the historical record of supplementary - MR. CROSBIE: I have to go back again now. !-IR. ROBERTS: The honourable gentleman can go back to 1832 if he wish - . which is the first time we had a House of Assembly. I am blamed for what happened in 1949,when I was eight years old, they might as well blame me for 1832, one hundred and eight years before conception. Even Tristram Sh~ndy I believe started - did the novel not begin at the moment of conception?

I mean-you know the minister has a new doctrine but to talk about the record of supplementary supply over the past four or five or ten years is entertaining and great fun and if it is in order let us do it but that does not take away from the fact that on a major predictable vote within the Medicare thing,for the first time in four or five or six years, whatever our historical experience of Medicare has been, we have had a very large misestimate,and that estimate is ten per cent under. Now Sl,800,000 is not a lot of money when viewed against the ~ total expenditures of the government.

We are spendin~ of the order of $700 millions this year. Sl.B00,000 is not an excessive amount of 1110ney but it is a lot of ~oney, Sir. It is a lot of dollars. It is ten per cent of the total expenditures of Medicare. What I want to know and all I can do is state the question and we shall leave it be, the minister hopefully will send or I will take him up on his offer to send the Medicare people to see me and then I shall 2628

March 26, 1974 Tape No. 861 NM - 2 chat with the and we will see,but all I can say is their performance under their present minister is not nearly as good as their performance under their previous minister or the minister pr.evious to that or the'minister previous to that,and that 1• as far back as the Medicare Cot1U11ission goes. It is a serious error. It is a ten per cent error and that is significant. More significant is the fact that there is no apparent reason for the error and all the ministers' c01111Dents here in the committee have not set it straight.

Now if anybody should want to debate it at length I am glad to,but I certainly said what I have to say on the point for now,and the Minister of Finance has attempted to draw a red herring across our trail • which is not very good. , It is not even a red caplin let alone a red herring. That should not take away from the fact, the Minister of Finance cannot take away from the fact that there is a ten per cent misestimate.

If he I wants to congratulate the Minister of Health for that, good, let him do it but he will certainly have shattered the confidence that a lot of people sometimes feel in the Minister of Finance when it comes to the more businesslike and machinelike functions of the government, the accounting machine functions. I am really surprised to hear the Minister of Finance talk about a ten per cent ~isestimate as being something to be congratulate~on. That is a new doctrine in public finance even in this province. On motion Head X, carried. Head XIII Tourism - $890 2200 MR.

CHAIR."{A.~: The honourable the Minister of Tourism. MR. DOYLE: Yes, Mr. Chairman, that amount is broken down as follows: Salaries - $168,000; a grant from the Secretary of State, well there is an approriation-in-aid against $201,400 and that is for such items as follows: Travel funds for extension officers, this is under Historic Resources, extension,with travelling exhibits and with the museum mobile,to refurbish the"Norma and Gladys: as a travelling 2629

March 26, 1974 Tape No. 861 NM - 3 museum and for cataloguing,assistance funds for provincial collection of artifacts as well as archaeological collections. As I have said, that is offset with appropriation-in-aid. An amount of $520,800 which is for the various travelling units of the Confederation Celebration C011DUittee: It will be recalled by 1Det11bers of the coumittee that when the collDllittee was set up about fifteen months ago, in last year's estimates, an amount of $100,000 was put in as nothing more than a guess because at that point in time ~ nobody knew what was going to be developed.

It has therefore been necessary.in .order .to get these travelling units ready to start next week1 which they are, that we have to go back for more funds. I am referring here to the production of the "Celebration Time" units, that is the six units that travel around the province, the "Where it is at. II programme, such things as the Internati.onal Bicycle Race. 2630

March 26, 1974. Tape 862 RH - 1 the various festivals, the Fisheries exhibition, the calendars vhicb had been mailed out and in the process of being distributed in the city of St. John's this week, general public relations and billboards in the Atlanti~ Provinces and Toronto, Montreal area. That is the general breakdown of that total vote, Mr. Chairman. MR. P. S. THOMS: Mr.

Chairman, I wonder, as far as the twenty-fifth celebrations are concerned, could the minister inform us if any of this 1110ney, this block vote,$520,000.00, is going to Horizon Communica­ tions or George McLean and also while he is on his feet could be tell us who was responsible for the calendars that were distributed to the public. The Twenty-Fifth Anniversary Calandars, start hi.m off with that. MR. DOYLE: Yes, Mr. Chairman. Under that block vote of $520,800.00 . there is an amount of $43,200.00 being paid to a firm by the na111e of Horizon Communications Limited for provincial and national public relations.

These are the commercials which have been on the media in the last few weeks and so on and so forth. The second question; Mr. McLean's firm of Nacon Limited is the firm which is -responsible for the complete prQ<luction of the ''Where It Is At" travelling caravan. That amount is $108,600.00 which is approximately broken down into, or put it another way, approximately half of it, fifty odd thousand,was spent in Newfoundland for the direct purchasing of film, the processing of film done by local firms, the hiring of local technicians and hiring of people to go with the unit.

These are all Newfoundlanders and therefore money that stays here. The calendar, I do not know exactly what the honourable member was referring to but it was printed by Robinson Blackmore. The layout was done between our own department and our full-time advertising agency, which is McConnell Advertising,and the total figure for the calendar, which includes printing, envelopes, postage and in the urban areas,such as St. John's, instead of using the post office. we are using cadets and boy scouts and so on, and paying them so much a unit to deliver them. The total cost is $112,800.00 for 350,000 calendars.

The general 2631

March 26, 1974. Tape 862 RH - 2 mailing for householders in the Province, including those distributed, is about 135,000. The balance will be used as another piece of tourist literature which will go out in the normal course of events with our regular tourist kits in response to the normal thousands of replies we get to the various advertisements we have in ma~~zines, what have ~ou. MR. THOMS: Could the minister inform us, Mr. Chairman, if any of .this work went on public tender. MR. DOYLE: Some did and some did not, Mr. Chairman.

The calendars went on public tender and the balance did not because of the very nature of the work. For example, "Celebration Time", which is the six units, the four c~ravans and two longliners, as I have said before, is the exclusive film process of the Czechoslovakian one, Tibor Rudas, who owns the right to the process and when we decided that we would go with this particular process, obviously you cannot put it on tender because he has the copy right to it.

We are quite satisfied; as a matter of fact delighted,as I am sure honourable members will be in the next few weeks when they get an opportunity to see the current years film which has not been released yet, it will be next week, of the Depart­ ment of Tourism. It is entitled "Ocean Heritage". It is narrated by Gorden Pinsent. It is produced by Mr. McLean; As is well known, the department produces a film a year 2632

March 26, 1974 Tape 863 This is over and above these anniversary celebrations now but I am referring to the fact that we are quite pleased with the work that IB-1 Mr. McLean'• firm does as far as production of film is concerned. This is why he put together the "Where It Ia At" progranne which is a combination of 5,000 elides and films. In the case of the fisheries exhibition and the various festivals, we went to a firm called Internation Events which has experience in doing this type of thing and nothing else. In the case of Horizon Communications we went to them.

They are a new, young firm but they are made up of people vho have come from larger firms who did specific items only. _ In other words, they had three or four people in Horizon Communications who had been assigned to this job for the six month or seven month period. It is · not like getting involved with a large firm which has a dozen things going on at the one time. McConnell Advertising are our regular advertisin~ agents. MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, could the minister inform us who is taking care · of the advertisements, say, for example in "Ti111e Kagazine"or magazine

section of the "Weekend Telegram"? MR. DOYLE: Yes, that is Mcconnel Advertising Limited which is just part of our normal annual Department of Tourism advertising. MR. THOMS: Now, Mr. Speaker, I wonder could the minister - I notice he has $168,000 there for salaries. First, I would like to know how many people t~at ·are on the payroll. From last ~year's budget, Mr. Nutbeaa _ was to receive the salary of $25,00~. Is there any increase in this salary for Mr. Nutbeam? MR. DOYLE: Now, just a second now. Mr. Nutbeam's salary is $20,~ and has not been changed.

On salaries the subheads l ·have here do not pertain to Head 13-08 which is the Anniversary Bead: The salaries are all broken down. If he have yQur estimates book there, the biue one, it is the regular Department o-f Tourism salaries, regul~r_. staf~• ­ _just normal increases in salaries and additions to staff. The honourable member will recall that the Department ~f TouriS111 is a brand new department 2633 " •

March 26, 1974 Tape 863 IB-2 just barely a year old or it will be next week, We have been adding staff and hopefully will add more and this accounts for the increase in salaries. There is nothing in that salary vote that pertains to the Silver Anniversary Committee. MR. THOMS: Yes, but the $168,000 which you mentioned earlier, this is for the Twenty-Fifth Anniversary. Is that correct? MR. DOYLE: No. MR. THOMS: Oh, it is not. MR. DOYLE: The $168,000 is just salaries for the Departmen~ of Tourism. MR. THOMS: Just for the department. MR. DOYLE: Exclusive of the anniversary. MR. THOMS: Okay.

Well, how many of the staff are assigned to the Twenty­ Fifth Anniversary? MR. DOYLE: There are none of the full time staff of the department assigned, as it were, to the anniversary. The staff consists of Mr. Nutbeam, Mr. Fisher, his assistant who was hired in October for a twelve month period, and two or three field workers and Mrs. Williams, executive secretary, and ~rs. Auchinleck who had been my secretary in my other depar.tment, Rehabilitation and Recreation.

I lent her, if you will, to the Confederation Celebration Committee for a few months because I use my Department of Tourism secretary,if you follow what I mean. Is that clear enough? MR. THOMS: Could the minister ~nform us if any of this vote, the $128,000,goes towards Wildlife, say, through increase in game wardens or anything like this? MR. DOYLE: I was waiting for that one.

I say I was waiting for that one. 13-05-01 - yes, an amount of $40,000 represents salary increases and new staff under Wildlife and on that point I am sure the honourable member and other members will be happy to know that I hope and plan next week to be announcing for Wildlife, · 2634

March 26, 1974 Tape 864 (Afternoon) PK - 1 the new programme referred to in the Throne Speech recently. To answer that question: Yes $40,000 of that $168,000 pertains to the Division of Wildlife. HR. THOMS: Are there any new wardens appointed? HR. DOYLE: There have.been no new ones appointed, we have authority from treasury board for the hiring of four more which only came through recently but we are holding that off for a week or two until I make a full announcement on the new programme. It will unfold as a complete package. What I am saying in effect is that there will be more than four hired. HR. ROWE, W.N.

I was following the minister as closely as I could, Mr. Chairman. Did I understand him to say or if he did not say will he give us the information regarding the McLean people, $108,600 I understand,paid to him last year under the Twenty-Fifth Anniversary Head? Was any of this work tendered ? Were any tenders called -for any of this work or were proposals invited for any of this work? HR. DOYLE: It is hard to pinpoint it down to that one piece of work.

We did make some enquiries at the university.back in March.as to any possible interest thPy might have in any film work that we were thinking about in terms of the anniversary. Now whether or which work it would be • would depend on what their answer was. I am informed that apparently there was not too much interest on the part of the university,due to lack of.staff or whatever I do not know. But other than that there were no other proposals asked for. "No" is the answer. MR. ROWE, W.N.

In other words, the answer to the question is "No, tenders were called and no proposals were asked for on any of the work constituting over $108,000 which have been paid out already to the McLean people." That ie the answer to the question. On the Horizons payout - I understood this is forty odd thousand dollars paid directly to Horizons, The $112,000 for mailing calendars and that would not have been paid to Horizons? MR. DOYLE: No. 2635

March 26, 1974 Tape 864 (Afternoon) PK - 2 MR. ROWF., W.N. It would have been paid to printers and for postage and that sort of thing. MR. DOYLE: Righ~. MR. ROWE, W.N. Forty thousand odd dollars - MR. DOYLE: Forty-three thousand,two hundred .dollars MR. ROWE, W.N. Forty-three thousand,two hundre~ dollarJ paid to Horizon · for doing what? For putting togeth~r the ideas,is that it? MR. DOYLE: No. I should have been more explicit on that. In that .$43,200 and I have not got the breakdown here, approximately half of it is paid to Horizon who in turn pay the media.

In other words, you probably have seen thesE advertisements in the last few weeks asking for various groups to send in, let us know when they are having an event or whatever. These advertisements are placed by Horizon on our behalf and they are billed to Horizon who in turn pay them. It is like an advertising agency in effect. In addition they are doing their m,n PR work .as well. MR. ROWE, W.N.

A month or so ago in the House the Member for Bell Island asked the minister whether his department or any agency under the jurisdiction of his department had entered into any arrangement with Horizons and the minister said, "No," Are we to assume that in the short period of time that has elapsed since then that a deal was entered into with Horizons,that they put together the calendar or the idea for the calendar and $43,000 has been paid out to them? Is that a correct statement of fact? MR.

DOYLE: No that is about half-and-half. · First of all, there is no connection between Horizon and the calendar, these are two. separate balls of wax completely. The day that the honourable the Member for Bell Island asked me the question and I answered "No," I answered correctly. He subsequently asked the question on two or three days I believe and was asked by the Speaker to put it on the Order Papers,which he has not seen fit to do. At the time he asked, there had been no arrangement reached with "Horizon"• I had been waiting to get it t.o cabinet to get 2636

March 26, 1974 Tape 864 (Aftenu,on) P1C - 3 approval to employ· them. A couple of the Horizon people.were in t91ffl almply 1 to put it loosely, waitinig to get word ae to whether or not they were going to be hired. They au'bsequently were hired ad in the last roughly !our weeka hJve put together this PR programme, these advertisements and the bulk of . that money, t-bat $43,200, 2637

March 26, 1974, Tape 86S, Page 1 - apb has gone to them for paid-out advertisements plus a down payment on their own work. To emphasize the point, the question from the honourable Member for Bell Island, at the time,and I am glad of this opportun~ty to do so, when he asked me the question they were not employed by my department nor by government. This is what he asked me and I said; "No." MR. W,N.ROWE: Can the minister tell the co111111ittee whether a firm contract has now been entered into with McLeans regarding the various aspects of the Tventy-Fifth Anniversary Celebrations?

What I am asking really is, this $108,000, was there a firm contract entered into with McLeans for $108,000 or various contracts for that amount or any other amounts? Are there now contracts entered into with McLeans? If so, how much are they worth? What are they for? Or is the situation this? That McLeans sends into the department some stuff, not to give it an! more specific description or designation, and then Harbin buys it off them by the expenditure of public funds? Or does McLean or his company call up the minister or some other official and say; "How about if we do this?" And he is given a verbal, okay?

Exactly what is the procedure used in dealing with Mr. McLean and his companies? Are there contracts entered into? It is a very loose, untidy arrangement? What happens? How do the government get into a deal with ~!cLeans whereby bills are sent, presumably, to the government and the government send out public money to Mr. McLean? MR. DOYLE: First of all, Mr. Chainnan, Mr. McLean and all his fit"IIIB' only involveme ·nt in the Anniversary Celebrations is for the "Where Its At" programme, which is being done by NACOM Limited, which is one of his firms.

There is, to the best of my knowledge, a letter on file of agreement between us and him to produce the programme which we put a name on and called "Where it Is At". It is made UP of, as I said, five. thousand slides and some film for which the firm sent photographers all over the province to get some of these things. 2638

March 26, .1974. Tape 865, Page 2 -- apb It 1• a multi-slide and movie presentation which tells of Newfoundlanders at work and at play. It pictures scenes both familiar and strange and includes some of the most spectacular underwater photography ever taken off our shores. What I am saying, Mr. Chait'lll8n, is that we agreed with Mr. McLean that he would produce the programme, it would be called "Where Its At." Dickering back and forth we agreed on what it would cost, what we were prepared to pay for it and there is a letter on file to that effect.

He went ahead and produced it and he is organizing or has organized, because the Premiere is next Wednesday night in the Holy Heart of Mary Auditorium. He has hired local people to travel with the thing and this comes out of his money that he is getting from us. MR. W.N.ROWE: Would the minister care to tell the committee how 111uch the price finally dickered at, how much was arrived at? Would the minister undertake to table the letter of cDllllllitment or letter of agreement in the committee? MR.. DOYLE: The price, Mr. Chairman, on the Supplementary Supply is $108,600.

I do not know offhand if that is the end of it, I ' although I will undertake to find out. I would think that that is certainly the bulk of it because the bulk of the work is done. The thing is ready to go next week. Yes, I will undertake to get a copy of the letter and table it, the letter of agreement. MR.. W.N.ROWE: Well this is Supplementary Supply but I think this is a legitimate question to ask the minister, Mr. Chairman. The amount of $108,600 is paid out or bas been paid out to McLean above and beyond other monies which may have been paid out to him.

I am surmising this now, the minister can set us straight on it when he rises again: $108,000, over $108,000,is the Supplementary Supply, 2639

March 26, 1974 Tape no. 866 Page 1 ·- MW the amount needed to pay McLean Enterprises, call it McLean, to pay McLean for this "Where It Is At" thing. Is this the total amount paid to Mr. McLean· from the minister's department or were other amounts paid to McLean out of funds which were approved in this House when the main estimates were brought in last year? Does the minister understand what I am asking? MR. DOYLE: Yes. This is the total amount paid out to McLean or the McLean firms under supplementary supply. Mr.

McLean: ( this is rehashing last year's estimates) produces a film, which I think is ~eferred to, a year and which was approved in last year's estimates. Mr. McLean's firms are on a retainer basis of $7,000 a month which was approved in last year's estimates,to produce various brochures and bring in various news writers and so on and sports writers from around the world, which has all been approved. The only involvement of McLean's firms in the anniversary is this "Where It Is At" progra111111e. The only involvement in the supplementary supp~y,which is what we are talking about.is this $108,600. MR. W.N.

ROWE: What we have coming from the minister's department alone and going to Mr. McLean is $108,000 supplementary supply; $7,000 a month, twelve months, that is $84,000, which is nearly $200,000 from the minister's department alone, plus a film - can the minister give us any idea of what was paid to McLean for the film last year? It is a legitimate question in supplementary supply, Mr. Speaker, because the minister is coming into this committee and asking for more money. His estimates last year were not sufficient.

He brought them into this House, main estimates, and he said that this is what we will spend next year• estimated expenditure. Now he is asking for more money. For the minister to stand up and say that this was all rehashed last year, so it was all rehashed and rehashed last year,but we were given the impression that the amount asked for by the minister was the amount he was going to spend last year. He is now asking for more money, a total of nearly $1 million, $890,000. What I 2640

March 26, 1974 Tape no. 866 Page 2 want to know, if the minister would care to give it to ua, ia how much that'film cost he is talking about. We are already nearly up to $200,000 from his department alone to McLean. What other monies have been paid to McLean out of the estimatea of his department? It is a legitimate question because if the money had not been paid to McLean or other monies had not been paid to McLean, he would not be coming in asking for further funds, supplementary supply.

I do hope the minister does not try to worm out of giving information to the committee by saying that this is supplementary supply and things were bashed and rehashed last year in committee, Mr. Chairman. MR. DOYLE: No, Hr. Chairman, I had no intention of worming out of anything. I thought I was being explicit and I will now be so. We are discussing Head 1308 under supplementary supply and 1308 is the heading for the "Silver lnniversary of Confederation Committee." Mr. McLean's involvement in that subhead,under supplementary supply,is for $108,600, as I have said for the "Where It Ia At" programme. Hr.

McLean's only other involvement with the Department of Tourism is covered in subhead 1303runder tourist services,which includes the film of which we do one a year at least and his retainer of $7,000 a month and that is it as far aa the departme6t is concerned. Mr.Chairman, on .the specific subhead which we are talking about, the only involvement in aupplementary supply with Hr. McLean is this $108,600 under the Silver AnniYersary 1 head 1308. MR. W. N. ROWE: As it happens, Mr. Speaker, what ve are dealing with, to correct the minister, is not the subhead . but head of expen~iture XIII, Tourism, $890,200.

Now the minister comes into the House looking for that eztra money. Now he has already been very generous with his information in telling us that $108,000 or more has gone to McLean for "Where It Is At," and that $84,000, not necessarily for supplementary supply but it came out of the estimates of his department, money from _his department has gone to Mr. McLean for $7 1 000 a month retainer for God knows what. Where It Is At? Mr. McLean has found out where it is at, Mr. Chairman. 2641

March 26, 1974 Tape no. 866 Page 3 It is the Minister of Tourism's department where it is at, $200,000. Now I am asking the minister a simple question. How much was paid to Mr. McLean last year for a film he talks about? They are under some kind of a contractual obligation of one kind or another ( We have not seen it tabled or anything) for a film. How much was paid to Mr. McLean for that film7 Mr. Chairman, as the minister well realizes, if an amount of money were not paid to Mr.

McLean for a film then he would not be coming into this House now ( I am assuming money was paid to him for a film, assuming that money was paid to Mr. McLean for a film, above and beyond the $84,000) looking for $890,000 worth of supplementary supply, Mr. Chairman. He would be coming in looking for a lesser amount. Would the minister kindly give the commitee the information I asked for; namely, how much was paid to Mr. McLean for a film? MR. DOYLE: Yes, Mr. Chairman, the amount is approximately $50,000, which is documented in the estimates of last year's documentary films, $90,000 total.

The approximate price I would say is about $50,000. It has not all be paid yet because the film has just recently been completed am~ that includes something like one hundred copies at several hundred dollars per copy for distribution throughout North America. It is the same as last year. There is no connection between the film that I believe the honourable member is talking about now, the Department of Tourism film and the "Where It la At" film, other than the fact that they are both done by the same firm, MR. W. N. ROWE: I could not care leas, Mr. Chairman, whether the film ~ Hr.

McLean is producing for the Department of Tourism is; "Where It ts. At" or "What Is It For?" or "Come Paint and Photograph" or anything else, all I am interested is finding how much money is paid by the Department of Tourism to Mr. McLean and his assorted companies. Now we are up to $108,000, $84,000, that is nearly $200,000 and $50,000 added on 2642

March 26, 1974 Tape no. 866 Page 4 to that, ~hat ia one quarter of a million dollars of public money, Mr. Chairman, gone to one individual or one individual's firms to produce questionable material at best for the government or presumably the people of Newfoundland. I just want to stree that point, Sir. I am not going to say anything further about it now. 'Ibis is really not the time to get into full flung debate on the minister's estimates. When the main estimates come, I do hope the minister will obviously come prepared with information for the House because we do intend to talk about Mr.

McLean and some of the other people, i.e., Horizon and how much will be wanted for them. The minister may not want to answer this question now but he may want to answer i,t if be wish to be frank with the c01111ittee, completely frank. Mr. Chairman, it looks as if $580,000 of supplementary supply, plus $100,000 I believe, which was in the main estimates last year - I do not have the book before me. Was there $100,000 in there for the Twenty-Fifth Anniversary? MR. DOYLE: Yes. That is what we started out with. MR. W. N. I.OWE: One hundred thousand. So far $680,000 2643

March 26. 1974. Tape 867 RH - 1 have been spent on the Twenty-fifth Anniversary Celebrations. We will see the figures when the main estimates are brought in the House but can the minister now hazard any kind of a guess based on his departmental estimates as to how much his department will be spending? He obviously cannot be held accountable in collllllittee for any expenditures made by other departments, but how much will his department spend, does he think, on the Twenty-fifth Anniversary Celebrations? Can .he give us some kind of an estimate as to what that figure will be now? MR.

DOYLE: It is still a difficult total question to answer, Mr. Chairman. I am not trying to hedge around at all but it is difficult to answer from the point of view that there are still many unknowns such as we thought we had :_ various hundreds of halls and so on booked around the Province. Now we find recently that the rates for some of the halls are going up all of a sudden, to give an indication.

For instance, last year as the honourable member has said we started in the estimates with $100,000.00 because obviously, last,year at the start of the conmittee, nobody knew what we were going to be doing in the way of celebration plans. So, we started with $100,000.00 which was really at best not even a educated guess, just a guess, enough to cover salaries. I would find it difficult at this time and I would not want to say it.

I would rather be sure of my ground which I will be when the estimates come, in that we are still awaiting a final decision on the Federal Government's total input into the celebration activities. We are aware of bits and pieces but we are not aware at this point in time of a total input and based on the Federal Government's input far which they have a formula w!ll depend on how much we have to put in. So, rather than go outona limb atthis time, Mr. Chairman, I prefer not to answer that question at this time. It will be fully de­ bated by next month, whenever the estimates come up.

I can only say at this time that the assumption the honourable member has made is quite correct, that the Silver Anniversary Committee in this current year has cost $620,800.00. 2644

March 26, 1974. Tape 867 RB - 2 MR. B. ROWE: That 111 fair enough, Mr. Chairman. The minister has said, as I understood him, when the main estimates come before the House in the next few weeks he will have an estimate as to how much it has cost to date. He will not only have an estimate but a figure as to how much it has cost as of that current date and an estimat .e •• to how much it will cost in the future. So, we will find out that information. One other question, Sir. A month or so ago there was a dispute of some sort reported quite fully in the "Evening Telegram".

I forget many of the details now but there seemed to be a dispute between some artists and photographers and people involved in artistic pursuits and Mr. Nutbeam, when Mr. Nutbeam announced at a seminar of some sort, I believe it was at Memorial University, that McLeans Enterprises had been hired to do various things and there were all kinds of disputes. I have heard myself, for example, that certain things which Mr. McLean!s companies are charging $200.00, say, for, I heard that, from one source, the Extension Department of Memorial University could do it for twenty­ five dollars.

Now, I admit qu~te readily that these ar~ hearsay statements. I do not lcnov and I am not technically expert enough to make any kind of a judgment on it but you do hear these kinds of rumblings throughout the Province, Mr. Chairman. IJR• K>RGAN: Propaganda. MR. ROWE: Propaganda, What is the yahoo from Bonavbta South going on about nov. I thougl}t he was going to leave the Rouse and do us all a favour, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! MR. ROWE: Mr. Chairman, my enjoyment of this Bouse went up one thousand per cent two or three days ago when he said be was not going to grace us with his preseDJe any more.

I am sorry, indeed sor'.rY to see him back in his seat. Hr. Chairman, to carry on with what I was saying to the minister, you hear this kind of rumblings around. It may be the costs that Mr. McLean's Enterprises are charging for various things . can be duplicated 2645

March 26, 1974 Tape 867 RH-3 or done as well as Mr. McLean and for a much cheaper price. Could the minister give us some idea as to what this is all about and what the policy of his department is on some of the statements and allegations made by this group of artists and artisans and whatnot? I am sure he is well aware of it. I am sure he has had talks with Mr. Nutbeam about what went on there. Could he fill us in? I admit I am basically ignorant about the whole area. Perhaps he may be able to shed some light on some of the disputes and some of the questions raised. MR DOYLE: Yes, I can shed some, Mr. Chairman.

I was out of town that week­ end. I understand that really what it boils down to is a difference of opinion or an opinion between people who were at the arts conference. I believe it was in late Feburary this was sponsored by the Extension Service and Mr. Nutbeam went there on invitation, I believe, as I under­ stand it, to tell the people what plans were envisaged for the celebration year. Again as I get it, hearsay, from several sources, the thing sort of developed into a beerpit session. Really that is what happened.

Tempers flared for a while, I am told, but really it boils down to a matter of personal opinion as to who can do a film better than somebody else. As I have said before, I said it last year and I will say it again now, we happen to be quite content with the film work which is being pro­ duced for this department and for the government by Mr. McLean. Whether or not we can get as good work as cheaply either here or elsewhere is a matter again of personal choice, I suppose, but we are quite content with the work we are getting.

Last year's film, the name of which brings a smile to many people, which happened to be called "Come Paint and Photograph Us" won several awards on the Mainland. This year's film "The Ocean Heritage" which I just referred to will be released next week and I am positive wil~ win several first-place awards. Those who have seen it think it is a tremendous production. Really it is a matter of personal opinion as to whether Mr. "A" can do it better than Mr. "B". That is all I have to say on that, Mr. Chairman. 2646

March 26, .1974. Tape 867 18 .- 4 I have not go.t much more infoniat:lon on the Arte Conference other than wbat Mr. Nutbeam told me and Hr. Perlin •nd Mr. Henley who were also there and, a few other things that .have COiiie to IDe third and forth hand. MR. B. ROWE: The thing that c0'4cerna me, Hr. Chairman, and the minister might get some additional informati~n for us on this. David Blackwood, I believe was there an4 he 2647

March i6, 1974 Tape 868 IB-1 express an opinion as one of Canada's foremost artists that a lot of the things being done by McLean as a company could be done by local people. I do not know what he meant by that. Even Mr. Pratt, another foremost Canadian artist with decided political tastes, his taste in politics is not as good as his taste in art, even he, Sir, who has not been known to be outspoken against the present administration, expressed some distress,concern and anxiety over the fact that other people, Newfoundlanders with ability in various fields.had not been approached or had not been involved by Mr.

Nutbeam and his committee but that every­ thing seemed to be bolus-bolus shifted over on Mr. McLean's broad shoulders. Now, these concerns were expressed, Mr. Chairman, and as a member of the House I feel it my duty to express the same concern. I do hope that when main estimates come through the House, the minister comes prepared with the answers to some questions and between now and then I hope to speak to a number of people and find out what some of the expert opinion throughout this province is on the whole subject. I do hope the minister comes prepared to answer some of the questions which may be raised then.

KR. DOYLE: Yes, but,Mr. Chairman, just on that point - by that time we hope that many of us will have seen the productions. : The people_• ~t -·_th!! __ conference at the time had not seen th~ films that everybody was talking about. You know, I had not seen them myself until recently and I have not seen them all yet. They were talking about film production in general without ?eing specific. So, I feel that the films themselves will speak ,for themselves when they are seen by hopefully every Newfoundlander. I will certainly be ... prepared,obviously in 1110re detail,for the estimates when that time comes around.

MR. WINSOR: Mr. Chairman, the minister made mention of the involvement of two long liners. Would he explain to'the c0111D1ittee what the involvement is of those boats and if or what charter they are gettin~ or were tenders 2648

.;. March 26, 1974 Tape 868 D-2 called for the charter of these longliners .? MR. oon.-E: I can answer the first part of the question, Mr. Chairman. I cannot answer the second part but I will undertake to get it.

The involvement i  simply that the Celebration Time Programme.which is the combination of film and live entertainment - in it there are •ix units, four are land caravans which will travel throu~hout the province , on the road.and two are boats, longliners which we engaged in order to get the programme to places in the province that have never before been able to see such a thing because they have been off the beaten track. We wanted to make sure that we covered the whole province, the Coast of Labrador, White Bay, parts of White Bay, the Southwest Coast, which are still inaccessible by road.

We therefore engaged the services of two boa ts. Now, as to what boats they are and what rate of charter, I do not have that information here but I will undertake to get it for the honourable member. I do not know whose boats they are but I know they have two boats engaged. I can get that information today or tomorrow for the honourable member if be wish. MR. SIMfol>NS: Mr. Chairman. I think he was talk~g to Mr. McLean, Mr. Chairman. Well, Mr.

Chairman, listening to the Minister of Tourism there 19 ao question that there is at least one feliow in .this province or wherever he is at the _moment who can afford to be overweight. AN -HONOURABLE MEMBER: We cannot hear - MR. SIMMONS: I shall repeat it a couple of tiaes. I say, listening to the Minister of Tourism, there is no doubt in -(' my mind that at least one gentleman in this province or wherever he is can afford to be overweight. That is my point. He is certainly being very well looked after. When all the truth is told, I imagine he ia being even better looked after than is apparent here today.

Before coming here, I heard some stories about these goings on, all the 2649

March 26, 1974 Tape 868 IB-3 stories,and the worst of my suspicions have been confiTmed today and I am shocked but there is perhaps more to come. I am also shocked, Mr. Chainian, to hear the minister indicate that he does not know what the celebration is going to cost. If I were planning a party, I would have some figure in mind. If I began to run over that figure, I would certainly keep tabs on the excesses, the overages.

Here the minister indicated that he does not have any idea whatsoever - indeed the one idea he does have is off by several hundred per cent from a figure given by one of his officials, a figure _given the public of $1.8 million versus $600,000 given by the minister today, I would, if the member for White Bay South has not already asked this question specifically, I would certainly ask the minister to take it upon himself to find out,as soon as possible, as accurate an estimate as possible on what these celebrations are going to cost.

Mr, Chairman, I also use the term celebration as a kind of habit, It is being bandied around. It is printed on the calender. I~ is used in the literature. I am not sure what it is we are . celebrating, The calender certainly has ae~thetic value, a nice job done. Certainly some fairly professional layout people had a hand in it. The print job is adequate as we know Robinson Blackmore can do. Of course Fobinson Blackmore cannot be blamed for the tone of the document, 'the emphasis in the document. I am proud of "Cupids in 1610. 1 I do not think it is particularly related to Confederation, Mr.

Chairman, I am proud of the schooners which are sheltered over in Bonne Bay but they do not particularly relate to Confederation, Mr, Chairman. I am proud of"Marconi 's· Place In History In Newfoundland ·'. ' AN HONOURABLE Mr.MBER: When was that? 1953? MR. SI~ONS: 1949 actually, 1949. One would think from looking at the emphasis being given here - but as I say, Mr. Chairman, I do not think the matter of Marconi is particularly related to celebrating twenty­ five years of Confederation. I am proud of Newfoundland's role in aviation, Mr. Chainnan, but 2650

March 26, 1974 Tape 868 18-4 do not think it ia in any way directly related to <:pnfederatioa. in 1949. I am proud of the role that the Ayre family has played in Newfoundland. I do not think it is particularly related to Confederation. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: It is related. MR. S.UH>NS: i· t just picked at random, Mr. Chainiaxi, five or six of the pictures that I_ saw as I glanced through that. Of course the overwhelllling message ther.e 1a this; at all cost let us 110t mention the unmentionable. Let us not ever address ourselves to the thing ~e are pretending to celebrate. 2651

March 26, 1974 Tape No. 869 NM - 1 what a complete mockery. What a slap in the face to Newfoundlanders who either voted for Confederation in 1949 or for reasons known only to them,and good as far as they were concerned, voted against Confederation, those who participated. I could tell the senior member for Harbour Main some persons and some events related to Confederation which they have pictures of which are quite available but they dared not print. I was saying, Mr.

Speaker, before the member for Harbour Main made his first major contribution of this session, that it is a real slap in the face to the people who were so ·deeply involved in Confederation that a government of this day should spent $112,000 on a document that purports to salute Confederation without making one solitary reference to it, one solitary reference except as you will find on the various dates, a state banquet here and that kind of thing but not one solitary reference - $112,000 on a Confederation item and not one solitary reference other than the word "Confederation" on the cover.about the subject which it is being pretended is being celebrated.

Mr. Chairman, that is the point that I want to get across to the minister at this time. I do not mind us spendin~ some of the public money. As one taxpayer I do not mind it as long as we spell out what·we are celebrating, celebrate what we say ~·e are celebrat .ing and hold the whole thing within bounds.

The biggest mockery of this entire thing of course, the biggest shambles of all is the vigourous effort that is being made by government, by the minister and by his department, not to mention the unmentionable, not at any time to give any undue attention to the~ event which we are celebrating, If we are going to celebrate Confederation let us celebrate it. If we are not,let us spend the $112,000 plus the other hundreds of thousands we have heard about for some other worthvhile purpose. Mr.

Chairman, I am not surprised that the minister finds the rates are goinR up for halls around the country, I am not surprised at all. The word is out. The word is out, This is an extravaganza. There is 2652

March 26, 1974 Tape No, 869 NM - 2 no limits on it, The minister does not know what it is going to cost or he ~ill not tell us. The word is out. It is one big blowout, so if you intended to charge $10, that is normal fee in Fleur de Lys or some small community, make it $20, make it $30 this time, the word out has gone out across this country. It is going to be the biggest blowout, the biggest bash that Newfoundland has seen. Of course another reason why it is going up, Mr.

Chai1'1118D, is the minister himself intimated when he said we had a tentative figure of $100,000, we did not quite know what it was going to cost. I would say that lack of knowing was too widely advertised and I think people like Horizons and like NACOM and McLean and McCallum, · whatever else you will provided its kind, I would say that these fellows got the message pretty fast that you could sell almost any idea to this committee, the Confederation Committee, you could sell any idea at all. There were no budget limitations.

If you came up with a good idea it might cost $50,000, $60,000, $80,000 but try it and you will probably sell it and they found that they have been dealing with a very gullible lot on this particular subject. Mr. Chairman, I have several questions I want to put to the minister. I trust my comments have served to provide a sufficient

preamble to the questions I will put to him in a mmaent. I just want to say first and also that he took pajns to emphasize the involvement of Newfoundlanders in this enterprise, how Newfoundlanders would word and how the advertisements would be printed in Newfoundland newspapers and therefore the receipts would go to Newfoundland newspaper owners and so on and so forth.

He did not tell us,of course and unfortunately, that I believe the McLean people, though I stand to be corrected, people putting to~ether some slides in connection with this event and it may be the same slide presentation that the minister referred to a moment ago, but that some people ~utting together a slide presentation have been approaching local artists, particularly in the Corner Brook and Deer Lake Area, seeking their gratis co-operation. So I cannot see that that nets too much into the Newfoundland pocket. I do not 2653

March 26, 1974 Tape No. 869 see Mr. McLean doing much gratis on this particular subject and 1 was very disappointed, disgusted .to find that people NM - 3 were bein~ buttonholed and tolrl that it was almost a sin against country not to have your painting photographed, no reimbursement for it mind you, but photographed so it could appear in a highly priced set of slides which would be passed over from the organization concerned to the government. I was surprised to hear the minister imply that Horizon had been engaged without:cabinet approval. He did not say that, Mr.

Chainnan, indeed he said the reason he could not answer the question was because there had not been cabinet approval. But I remember the instance quite well. I remember the events which led up to the met'lber for Bell Island asking.the question he did on the first day.

He asked it on that first d~ becaus~ he had kn~wledge,as I did that morning, that Horizon was already acting on behalf of the committee, it was already placing advertising on behalf of the committee at that time when he first asked the question. ~ow the .minister's explanation is that he could not answer the question on that day or he answered as honestly as he could because there had been no contract. 1 would suggest, Mr.

Chairman, that Horizons had been engaged without cabinet approval and I would like some clarification on that point and if the answer from the minister is going to be, "No, they were not enr,aged without cabinet approval": how does he explain that this very reputable firm which . . ·. he.lauded in his comments earlier were '1oing around to the news media, booking · advertising, m~king financial committments on behalf of the Confederation Committee before, according to the minister, the • company concerned, Horizon, had cabinet approval, cabinet authorization to do so.

I would like clarification on that point and two or three others, ~r. Chairman. The calendar fee again, the calendar fip,ure of $112,800 2654

March 26, 1974 Tape 870 (Afternoon) PK - 1 Would the minister indicate to the committee whether ~cConnell's fee is included in that $112,800 or whether this is an addition to the $112,800? He did indicate that the layout was done in part by McConnell. Would he also indicate in reference to that point, Mr.

Chairman, whether there are other involvements of McConnell in the Confederation Celebrations which will mean an additional charge on the treasury which is not being reflected in the figures of the Tourism Department at the present time or not being rrflected in the total amount which the minister is indicating as the overall cost of the celebrations?

I have some others but if he would address himself to the matter of cabi~et approval for "Horizon", to the matter of whether McConnell's fee is included in the $112,800 and whether there are other involvements I of McConnell which will mean additional expenditure, additional charges on the treasury as a direct result of McConnell's involvement in aspects of the Confederation Celebrations: MR.

DOYLE: In the last question first, Mr. -Chairman, I have already said perhaps the honourable member was absent at the time · - there is an amount of $38,000 in the supplementary supply for McConnell advertising which amount is for billboards in the Atlantic Provinces and in Toronto and Montreal Area. These are specific billboards having to do with the anniversary. As far as McConnell's involvement in the calendars is concerned, their only involvement was as advisers. There has been no fee fro~ McConnell's or will there be for their involvement with our calendars.

The McConnell advertising agency has been the advertising agency with the department for some two years and we use them for general assistance and advice on other matters over and above their regular budget. On the question of the calendar while I am still on it, I would commend to the honourable gentleman that he would read first the cover of the c~lendar which I now plan to do for the edification of all members present. In these three or four lines he will see why the pictures which are in the calendar are there. I quote as follows: 2655

March 26, 1974 Tape 870 (Afternoon) PK - 2 "This year we celebrate the Twenty-Fifth Anniversary of Newfoundland's confederation with Canada. But the history of our province goes back far beyond that - farther back, in fact, than any other in Canada. It is a history of a proud and indeperdent people - some native to the land, many drawn from foreign shores by the promise and the adventure of the sea. It is a story of constant hardship and frequent heroism, of perseverance and pluck, of a way of life that is fast changing.

It is our heritage - a past that comes alive for us in songs and sayings, in great deeds and traditional folklore. As we plan fot the future, we carry hopes of those who vent before. And we remember. Herewith, a fond backward glance at some of the people and places that will be forever ours." I think that speaks for itself and it gives the reason why we chose the particular pictures from the Archives of the province. MR. Sil-!MONS: Excellent, M~. Chairman, I agree. MR. DOYLE: On the question of the total cost the honourable member is a bit off, I believe he was absent in the early part of my remarks.

Am I not correct? Earlier on this evening? MR. SIMMONS: I stepped out, Mr. Chairman, a couple of times. I quoted the figure, I heard the minister say, $600,000 is . our guesstimate, is that correct? MR. DOYLE: That is in this current year which ends the end of March. The figure the honourable member mentions is a figure of $1.6 millicn which apparently got tossed around in Central Newfoundland a few ·weeks ago or a month ago.

But the figure of $620,800 is the exact figure which the celebrations are costing us in this current year 197)-1974, which is the $100,000 we started with plus the $528,000 which we are now discussing. I explained why - not that I .was not able, I explained why I did not feel at this particular time like giving a total figure and I still am of the same opinion, that figure will come out in this honourable House during the course of the nezt few weeks when we have it pinned down. The honourable member mentioned - yes, Horizon. The explanation for that I am quite aware of what he is getting at.

One or two persons 2656

March 26, 1974 Tape 870 (Afternoon) PK - 3 from the Horizon Communications Company were here.as I have explained before,awaiting word as to whether or not they had been employed by government. I had a paper proposal, a• paper up to cabine~ For some reason and which I forget right now, the cabinet did not meet for a week or so. In the meantime, these people were here, there were certain press releases at the time in connection with, if I recall correctly, the song contest, the finals of which were held on February 14, Valentin~•s Night. ' Mr.

Pellerine, the man from Horizona,delivered these press releases to the various media. It was around that same week that the honourable the Member for Bell asked me that question. But at that time, it is an actual fact that Horizons Co11D11Unications were not employed. They were not employed until the following week but while they were here they did do a bit of work on behalf of the committee. Presumably had my submission to cabinet been turned down we might have been faced with some kind of a fee-for-service bill for a week,' s work or something.

There was no agreement they were just sitting here waiting to get agreement from me, which I had to get from cabinet. It was delayed because there was not a cabinet meeting for a week or something. That is the explanation of that. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Chairman, I am glad the minister read to me the citation on the bottom of the calendar. I have read it already. I knew somewhere looking through the calendar there would be some rationale for what had been done .inside of the calendar. I under­ estimated, I did not fully expect it to be slick, so, so slick, so eloquently worded as it was.

But again I underestimate people some­ times and when I read it I had to admit to myself that it was by far· the slickest wav. in two sentences. listen to them a2ain, "This year we celebrate the Twenty-Fifth Anniversary of Newfoundland's Confederation with Canada. But the history of our province.goes back etc." There is your springboard to get away from the celebration per se or the immediate reasons for it. 2657

March 26, 1974 Tape 870 (Afternoon) Ye are not celebrating, Mr. Chainnan, our next one hundred anniversary 1;1.s a settled land~ we •re celebrating Twenty-Five Years PK - 4 of Confederation. I could not agree more with the little

preamble on the cover that t~ese are ,matters we ought to celebrate. _Sure, but let us call a spade a spade. if that is what we are celebrating the four hundred or four hundred and fi.fty or the next . one hundred year of our being here as a group of Newfoundlanders,let us do that but let us not purport to celebrate confederation when, that is the very thing we are trying to shy a,,,ay from. It is pretty evident from the two sentences I just mentioned there to you. It would say the same thing if it read as follows: "This year we celebrate the Twenty-Fifth Anniversary of Newfoundland's Confederation with C$1.ada but •. ,• 2658

March 26, 1974. Tape BU RH - 1 aay the same thing. The minister has indicated that the total figure he mentioned was for this year. I appreciate that. I appreciate the difficulty, Mr. Chairman, of not knowing exactly what the total figure will be but I do maintain that the simplest principles of fiscal respon­ sibility would require the Government to make some hard and fast deci­ sions. It has to be arbitrary I realize but some decisions are.going to cost $5 million, $2 million, $3 million, $4 million.

Is there some ' overall figure in mindi' I cannot get tripped up about fiscal years_ whether it is spent on March 31 or April 2. ·~t is still an expenditure on the treasury and the fact that it is $600,000.00 plus in this year does not ease the bill that we are going to get next year. Can the 'lllinister indicate to us what kind of figure, what projected figure he and his colleagues in Government have in mind as to what these celebrations in total ought to cost? I do not care what years it winds up in in terms of the book entries but what in total is _it expected to be?

Is it $1 million, $2 million, $3 million, $1.5 million? What total figure do Government intend, plan to expect to spend on the Confed- eraUon Celebrations? MR. DOYLE: As I said before, twice this afternoon, I am not prepared to give that figure at this time because I do not know it. I can take a guess and an educated guess but I do not wan~ to do that.

I would rather be sure of my ground which I will be within a week or so and as we are just discussing supplementary supply, which is this figure here right now,and as the total figure will obviously have to come out in the estimates on the discussion during the coming months, the answer to that question I will give at that time when I have more information.~ I do not want to put a figure out now and have it misquoted and thrown all around the place.But for the purposes of this bill before us today l have already given the figures and that is as far as l plan to go. lam not been obstinate.

I am just trying_to say that I do not have the figure due to federal involvement. The actual involvement, there are several formulas going to be followed. One of several is going to be followed and depending on which one they take, could make a big 2659

March 26, 1974. Tape 871 RH - 2 difference to the overall total figure. So. for the sake of a few weeks, I am going to ~ang off on the total figure. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Chairman, it is fine with me, I have heard the minister say now that he undertakes to get the answer in due time, I think the matter of federal involvement is certainly appropos, cer­ tainly relevant, insofar as it tells us provincial legislators what will come out of the provincial kitty directly.

I would suggest that if the minister is saying that the only amount he is concerned about is the provincial amount and he does not care how much the bill goes up otherwise because the Feds are paying it anyway, I would suggest that that is irresponsible and I would still say that no matter now the pie gets divvied up, how the sharing arrangement works, what formula is used between Ottawa and St. John's. I would say that Govern­ ment ought.before planning such a big binge as this, to know what it is going to cost in round terms.

I can appreciate that because he does not know what formula is going to be applied vis-a-vis the Federal Government's involvement. Then t can see that he cannot very well put a figure on because if the total cost is $3 million and the Pro­ vince's share is half, that means $1.5 million for the Province. If province's share is one-third,it means $1 million and the difference in the two figures I have just mentioned is $0.5 million, a substantial amount. I am not asking for that.

I am saying that now or subsequently, and I am prepared to wait for the later occasion on which he has in­ dicated he will give the answer. At some point the public should know what the total figure will be. It would be also of interest to us, of course, to know what the involvement of the Federal Government is but I would certainly like to know what the overall celebration is going _to cost. I WQuld like to r,et back, Mr. Chairman, to the matter of Horizon Couununications.

The minister indicated that this is a newly formed or- ganization and that it drew on some expertise from other organizations in the field of public relations and advertising. He has indicated that the repre- sentatives of Horizon were here before the Government. before cabinet 2660

March 26, 1974. Tape 871 RD 3 did approve. By the way, Mr. Chairman, he has not indicated yet whether cabinet has given approval at this time, It is implied in his comment but I would certainly like for him to confirm that cabinet has now given approval for Horizon. Also, he has indicated that the representatives of Horizon were in the Province before it was taken to cabinet and he did suggest that if his proposal were turned down by cabinet then, of course, somebody would be left holding the bag. That is true too, but by what route did Horizon get here? The tender route?

Did they come because they were the lowest of several bidders in this? Did they come because they were told that it was a rubber stamp job and there is no problem in getting cabinet to approve this? Why were they optimistic ·enough to come, not only and plant themselves down here but start doing a few fre·e favours for the Government while they are awaiting to get the approval? Somebody must have been awfully optimistic, Somebody must have told them that their chances were pretty good. Were their chances good because they were holding the lowest bid on a publicly tendered job?

Were they optimistic because they were the ,only ones approached on the subject anyway? I would like the answers to those questions if the minister would care to answer. I would also like to ask if there is any connection that he knows of between Horizon Communications and NACOM or any of the other I McLean firms? MR. DOYLE: To answer the last question _ first, Mr. Chairman: No there is no connection that 1 am aware of between Horizon Communications and McLean or any of his firms. The reason they were here is that they were asked to come by our Celebration Counnittee. They were asked to put in a proposal.

We came upon them on the recommendation of our advertising agency, McConnell Advertising, vho are well up in the business on the Mainland and in the States and who have reason to know people who are in this type of trade. The reason they were chosen, as I touched on before, they are a small firm but they have flexibility, they have had expertise in such things in 2661

March 26, 1974 Tape 872 IB-1 the past. They were involved,some of them, ~embers of the firm were involved in the centennial of I believe it was Manitoba several years ago. As I said, they have been assigned now that we have cabinet approval which was obtained, I think it was a week after the honourable member from Bell Island asked me the question. They have been assigned, three or four of them have been assigned to this specific task, to this job and they will be with it tmtil it is finished, nothing else.

It is not like an advertising agency or a large firm which ~ne minute _ 1s trying to produce something for an advertisement for a Newfoundland Confederation Celebration and the next minute is producing an advertisement for . ·sunlight soap or what have you. One more question I would like to just refer to: The honourable member mentioned the pictures in the calender again. One of the other reasons for having the pic~ur~s is that we hope by having a historical significance to the pictures it would be a reason for people to keep the calender as a souvenir of the year after the year is finished.

If these had been just ordinary pictures of icebergs or Cabot Tower or what have you, we felt,rightly or wrongly,that the calender would not be around as long as it would be, as it will be,we hope.with such pictures as we have in there,which really the originals of which are in the Archives and most,of these pictures cannot easily be come upon by most Newfoundlanders. That is just another reason why those pictures were put there. I believe that is all the questions. AN HONOURABLE ME~ER: So far. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Chairman, I did not at all suggest, of course, that they be or~inary pictures.

I have a rather extraordinary picture at home, not of any of those in there, but I have a rather extraordinary picture _showin~ the gentlemen,including the first Premier of this province and the next Lieutenant Governor of this province, pictures of these gentlemen up there involved in the terms of union. I do not think one of the gentlemen I mentioned got involved in the final picture but certainly we have 2662

March 26 • 1974 Tape 872 IB-2 pictures which relate directly to the historical event of Confederation. -That was my point. Of course, in the national convention days there were so many events that could have been recorded. We cannot unprint the calender so 1 shall not pursue the point. I was not at all suggesting that the pictures tha~ _could have ·been embodied be any of the ordinary pictures, in the minister's words, but that they be pictures pertinent, pertinent pictures, pertinent to the subject at hand and the occasion at hand instead of apologizing for the occasion.

That was my point and I do not think anything that the minister has said since has subtracted from it. All his points are interesting points on the subject of the calender but they do not at all subtract from the insult that is be~~g done Newfoundlanders by this thing here. It is so irrelevant that, like I said, if itwerenot for the wording on the cover, you would wonder what it was we were celebrating. Mr.

Chairman, the reference to Horizon once again and the explanation that they were a full-time outfit and able to do the job without diVVying I themselves up among several competing responsibilities: It is a fair argument but I believe that tenders o~ght to have been called in this province on this job. Then if Horizon were the only ones t~at could fill the bill, that is fair again. To my knowledge there were no public tenders on this in the province. I gather that Horizon is not involved in the more creative aspects of this enterprbe like this kind of thing here or the "Where It Is At" or that kind of thing.

They are involved in, from what I gath~r from what I see of them publicly, they are involved in a fairly elementary part of public relations, feeding out press releases and appropriate photographs and that kind of thing.

Now, they may have soJDe other specialized responsibility assigned to them that we do not know about yet and the minister can certainly indicate this but in the absence of his doing so, I can only assume that they are really performing a rathH - a • • • unsophisticated - that is not to indict them or to say that their work is unsophisticated but they are performing a rather unFophisticated role, 2663

March 26, 1974 Tape 872 one of the simplest roles in public relations, namely getting pres~ releases typed up and fed out. I am sure that there are a lot of people in this province who could have done that. Certainly they should _have been given the opportunity to do it. IB-3 As one Newfoundlander, I am not willing to buy the suggestion that we had to go all the way to Toronto to find this kind o~ eY.pertise. Again I suggest that that is a further k~ck 1n the teeth for those of us here in Newfoundland who would like to feel that if we are going to celebrate, we can pretty much do it on our own.

I hold - no I do not get upset about people from up along. I rather like them as a matter of fact. I married one of them. That is not the issue. The issue is that the least we could do, Mr. Chairman, in this province is trust our fellow Newfoundlanders to do a fair job. If the kind of celebration we need in 1974 is so sophisticated that we cannot plan it ourselves, let us not have it. Let us have something that we can plan quite by ourselves.

If we need a little expertise from outside, that is fair ball but I think $100,000 here, $43,000 here, some other figures we have not mentioned, it h~s -~~nd of gotten out of hand and I would certainly appeal to the minister and his Confederation Committee to try and hold the rein before it gets completely ludicrous. On the subject though, Mr. Chairman, I did want to ask a question. Was there any overt decision?

Was there any deliberate decision on the part of the committee and/or government to go outside the province for this expertise in promotion and other matters involved in the production of the "Where It Is At" and the other items in your caravan? Was there a deliberate, conscious decision to go outside or is the minister maintaining that that kind of expertise could not be found 1n the provlnce? MR. DOYLE: In answer to that question, Mr. Chairman, no there was positively ~ot any decision to go outside the province. The simplest way I can answer that is to break down the individual items again.

The Celebration Time is a copyrighted process of ~r. Rudas. 2664

March 26, 1974 Tape 873 11-1 who is outside the province. We wanted hie copyrighted process so ve had to go out to get it. The "Where It Is At" production produced by NACOM, •• I have said about four times before thi• afternoon, we are quite satisfied with the production work, the film work, the slides of Mr. McLean and his company. When the day comes you know that we ·are not satisfied with his work, we will look elsewhere.

As I have already said, as far as Horizon is concemed,these people came highly recommended to us aa having expertise in their field and that was it but there was never any decision taken from day one not to employ loca1a. There is one thing that I would like to refer to.

The honourable member mentioned, if I heard him correctly, in his opinion that the calender was sort of apologizing for t~e · Confederation ee.le~r•ti~ -· No~·certainly if anybody has been following the media in the last few months - I am sure the honourable member has - I cannot see how anybody can accuse the cammittee or the department or the government of apologizing for the celebration. If anything, _we ... h_ave been doing the exact opposite and as far ·_!!-~i• referring to thecalend~r as an i":'9ult to Newfoundlanders, well, he is entitled to his own opinion.

In my opinioq he is completely oat of step because the vast number, the vast majority of comments which ~ ~':~ coming back to us from all over the province-, in letters ~.!. coanents, verbal comments are ones of c01111endation on the calendar. So, I would suggest that he is a minority in his opinion on the calendar but however, he is entitled to that. HR. · SIMMONS: -~f'll, Mr. Chairman, I am amazed at the paraphrase of what I was supposed to have said that I just heard from the minister. I started out by commending those who laid out the calendar. I think it is a fairly sophisticated job.

It is an eye-pleasing calendar._'._- It has some nice pictures of a lot of things in it. It is a nice taletidar. How many times does he want me to say it? It ia a gorgeous calendar. I will write him a letter on the subject, a very nice calendar. Hr. Chainnan, that was not the comment, that vas not the 2665

March 26, 1974 Tape 873 IB-2 concern which made me draw in the word insult. What is an insult? It is not the calendar as such but the suggestion that somehow thi• celebrates Confederation and expect the Newfoundland people to be gullible enough to believe it. It does not do that. That is the insult, that people are presumed to be that gullible that they will buy it. It is a nice calendar. Who takes a calendar and adjudicates it as I have done today? You get a calendar and you put it on the wall or you put it in the garbage. You do not sit down and discuss the pros and cons of calendars. Of course you do not.

You take one look at it and it is nice or it is not nice. If it is nice, you tell someone. It was given to you anyway so if it is not nice you do not go off and criticize if you are John Q. Public. I did not expect the minister to get a torrent of letters telling him what a shocking . calendar it was. I do not expect that. It is a very nice calendar, nice ink used on it, some nice pictures used in it but nothing to do with Confederation.

That is my point and that is where the insult is involved and I do not think that I am a minority on that particular subject if most people had thought about the subject to the degree that I had before aaking my comments. - .. It is not .. a -ma.~·or iss~e _ •.. A l~t of people across the !;OUn1cry can think of a lot of other things that can be done with $112,000 but that is another story still. Before I sit down, Mr. Chairman, I cannot help but make one more comment in reference to what the minister said earlier. I heard him say that government is pretty satisfied with McLean so we do not . need any tenders.

We are going to keep them, keep farming work out to them because we are satisfied with them without tend~r. Now, Mr. Chairman, I suggest to you that that ts the equivalent of saying the construction company that built a road here or that built a hospital here, they were a pretty good outfit, I do not think we will call any tenders, I Jhink_we viil just get them to build all the rest of the road~ and send their billing,as McLean is doing. 2666

March 26, 1974 Tape 873 IB-3 That is not good enough, Mr. Chairman. I can hope that the minister and hi• colleagues have enough basic common sense that the day th~~ McLean does not do a_good_job th~y will get rid of him. 1 would hope that they have enough basic common sense or I would credit them with that kind of sense, but that credit does not mean that they have the license to engage McLean to the exclusion of all others who might be able to do an equally good job were they given the chance in public tender. MR. MAlll'IN: Mr. Chairman, I have only a very few comments to make.

This beini,t supplementary supply, I shall reserve comments for the main estimates. We are though talking about $890,000 pla,aad some of the counents that were made in the main estimates to which these are supplementary I think deserve to be made again particularly with regard to the tendering or not tendering. . Nov, I realize - the verbatim report of last year will show - that several honourable members made the same comments, that it is difficult to call for tenders on aomething like a public relations contract.

However, it is standard procedure within the business and I know something whereof I speak, to go out and try to get the best for your money by asking whoever is involved in your particular area or outside the area,for that matter, to submit proposals. Of course, this presupposes that you have some idea of what you are going to do in the first place. Now, I saw the film - we all saw the film I think - "Come Paint and Photograph Us" or something, a criticism of that particular work would not necessarily be subjected but I submit, Sir, that for $84,000 we should be able to get a little more for our money.

If we are talking about public spending, it is not a question of whether you apend more or less, ~tis also a question of whether you get your money's worth. Nov, that particular film• that unquestionably has served a 2667

March 26, 1974, Tape 874, Page 1 - apb certain professionalism. It did not have a great deal of artistic merit. A man simply went out with a camera and shot landscapes and put a bit of voice over. Anybody who is familiar with the game will know that that certainly does not cost $84,000. I wish that I had had the chance to bid on it myself. The point I am trying to make, Mr. Chairman, is that there are local firms which can compete in the production of this type of film and in all other areas surrounding the celebration~activities, ·public relation activities.

If we are going to use ·public funds in this manner then I think the first obligation we have is to try to make those funds stretch as far across the p~ovince as we can by going to provincial firms and trying to help out those people who are creating jobs. One way of doing that is to make sure that everybody has a chance to either make a bid on a contract or to make a proposal on a particular piece of work.

This is no doubt going to come up again in this year's estimates and I think that this business of not asking for - this is after all, a contract bid, this is going to get a lot more airing in the estimates than it did last year. The one other thing where I think we could be getting more for our money, out of this particular $890,200 and whatever else is spent in Celebration Year, there are several things but one that comes to mind just from leafing through the calendar, the extraordinary number of state banquets.which are very expensive affairs.

I think that there is no question that we should have this kind of ce~ebration, but if we are going to get more for our money, spend the same kind of money and get more - for it, then maybe we should have good old-fashioned soirees and let the people down on the street come celebrate with us too - $890,000 spent is not the question but whether we are getting $890,000 worth. That is all I have to say on the supplementaries. I think we will get into more of it though in the estimates. MR. DOYLE: I thank the honourable member very much -for his co111D1ents. 2668

... March 26, 1974, Tape 874, Page 2 -- apb MR. W.N.ROWE: Can the minister give us some idea as to who is involved in Horizons anyway? Is there any local director or shareholder that he is aware of? Would he mind flingillg out a name or two? Who has he been dealing with on this? MR. DOYLE: I have it all here, Sir, if the honourable member will be patient for a millute. A Miss Jane E.Cummings in Toronto is the head of the firm. MR. W.N.ROWE: Miss Jane E.Cummings? . MR. DOYLE: Yes. I am not sure if she is Hise, Hrs. or Ms. The local representative is Mr. Denis Pelrine who has taken up residence here. MR.

W.N.ROWE: 'What is his name? Sorry! MR. DOYLE: Denis Pelrine. P-e-1-r-i-n-e, I believe. MR. W.N.ROWE: Is that a Ming's Bight name? MR. DOYLE: Pardon? MR. W.N.ROWE: Is that a Ming's Bight name? It sounds familiar. MR. DOYLE: No. It is not Tor's Cove. either. Those are the two. It is Mrs. Jane Cummings. She is president of the company and Mr. Pelrine is the man who has been assigned to this particular job. Those are the two names that I have knowledge of. MR. W.N.ROWE: One final question for me, Sir. Maybe the minister gave ill some of the infomation he has already given to the committee the contract entered into.

Presumably,there is a contract entered, into which has been given government approval but what is the amount? What is the total amount? that is the one between Horizons and the government. MR. DOYLE: Yes. We know that the figure for now 1• $43,2 the honourable member wants the total figure. MR. W.N.RO'WE: Yes. MR. DOYLE: I do not have that here. I will get it. Yes, there is a letter of agreement between both bodies. MR. W.N.ROWE: On that we have already had the undertaking of the minister, Mr. Chairman, that he would table the letter of, I 2669

March 26, 1974, Tape 874, Page 3 -- apb believe that was th~ letter of agreement, letter of co111111itment given to McLeans organization, Could we have a copy of the letter of commitment given to Horizons as well? MR. DOYLE: MR. W.N.ROWE: that? MR. DOYLE: MR. ll.N.ROWE: Sure. Do I understand the minister is undertaking to do Yes. Sure: Fine: On motion HEAD XIII, carried. HEAD XVII. TRANSPOIITATION AND COMMUNICATIONS. $1.000.000. MR. MARSHALL: XVII, the honourable Minister of Transportation and Communications is out of town, Mr. Chairman.

Thia $1 million is broken down into two amounts, one of $800,000 and one of ~20_0, 000. The $800,000 relates to additional funds which are necessary for open vote employees, which was necessary because of the increases in wages which occurred over the past year, particularly, I think, because of our - in reference to our beneficial measure to increase the minimum wage and also the introduction of a three-day shift operation in certain areas to provide round-the-clock service in snow clearing operations.

The sum total of that is $800,000 and the balance making up $200,000 relates to winter maintenance and equipment. Apparently the estimates were out slightly and it was necessary for an extra $200,000 to replace and repair equipment. AN HON. MEMBER: Any of this capita1? MR. l-1'.ARSHALL: No, it is all on current. Everything is on c~rrent. Current maintenance. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Chairman, my only regret is that the Minister of Transportation is not here. I am sure that the honourable llouse Leader, if he does not have the information he could probably undertake to get it for me.

I have two or three questions which relate to my district. First of all would the minister indicate I what amounts were spent on the road paving prograimnes in each of the folloving: Harbour Breton, Hermitage, Sandyville (Probably one job) and Seal Cove? Also, perhaps rather than have that question I can 2670

~arch 26 1 1974 Tape no. 875 NM 1 come to another one quite separate. MR.MARSHALL: I could say to the committee, Mr. Speaker, that I will certainfy undertake to pass this on to the Minister of Transportation and Communications whom I know will be only too happy to supply the information. Of course this question does not relate directly to this particular request for supplementary supply because it is a request for additional funds for general winter maintenance and the winter maintenance of equipment.

However, I feel quite sure that the honourable Minister of Transportation and COllllllunications will be only too happy and I will pass the question on to the honourable minister when he comes. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Chairman, there is one thing that humbles me more than others in this House, it is the very conscientious attempt being made by honourable members opposite to educate me into the functions of the House. I am learning pretty quickly and I just had another little lesson on the subject so I will give the ~inister a question that relates directly to the subject at hand.

Would he indicate or undertake to get the information as to whether the supplementary amounts asked for here involve any additional expenditures to provide additional maintenance services on the Bay D'Espoir Highway and the road from Morrisville to St. Alban's and on the road from Seal Cove to the Harbour Breton ~oad7 MR..MARSHALL: I can undertake to determine whether any additional- I do not know whether they would have _the brealc.dovn, Mr. Chairman, of this.

You know this vote is for - The honourable member for Hermitage's question is certainlr well taken but this vote is for the general amounts that were necessary in order to upply the overrun,if you will, for winter maintenance , for open-vote employees all throughout the province. So with respect to this, to that particular question, I do not think that you know I can answer the question,that no, it does not necessarily relate to these particular areas in his district.

I also know that the Department of Transportation and Co11111unications could not really supply a breakdown of the figures for each district that this $800,000 2671

March 26, 1974 Tape no. 875 NM - 2 and $200,000 represent because the winter maintenance and equipmen~ with respect to the equipment, I have no doubt that they could pinpoint what. equipment was purchased but with respect to winter maintenance, you know it was all throughout the island, it was generally necessary for the whole area of the province. ~- SIMMO~S: Mr. Chairman, I can appreciate the difficulty there. I asked the question because one does not mind being asked to vote for supplementary amounts if one has the knowledge that already he had seen the improvement about him.

The fact is, it has become fairly general knowledge around the ·country that this must be by far the worst winter we have experienced in a long time, not in so far as weather is concerned,~ am not saying that, one of the better ones perhaps in that respect,but insofar as road maintenance is concerned. I identified three areas in my district which are having particular problems and I am sure the situation could be duplicated many times by the members in this House in their respective districts around the province.

I have another question that I would like to direct to the ministe~ Would he indicate to the committee whether the government has made any application to Ottawa for funds to construct a causeway across the Conne River and thus into the Conmunicty of Conne River, Burnt Woods? MR.MARSHALL: Mr.

Chairman, I can aswer that question because now I say I have to answer it from the point of view I am sure, as the honourable member will appreciate,from memory rather than direct information coming from that department but I do recall that application was made to Ottawa for this very essential bridge that the government wishes to see in operation because it is very, very essential to the people of Conne River and I believe that the application has been made or in the course of the applications to the Department of Regional and Economic Expansion or Indian Affairs.

I am not really sure of which specific department but I do know that an application has been made 2672

March 26, 1974 Tape No. 875 NM - 3 to Ottawa and I do know that it was a matter of great concern to the honourable member's predecessor who was here in the government and indeed a matter of concem to the government itself that this essential link in the Conne River Area be realized as soon as poss1ble as I am sure it is obviously of concern to the honourable member. I hope that answers his question. MR. SIMMONS: Yes. I will not repeat that.

I was going to ask one other question on the subject but the member for White Bay South gave me ideas on this subject which I perhaps ought not to pursue at this time, it being so late in the evening. Would the minister indicate whether the government has or can he indicate when the government will sign its highways agreement with the federal ~overmnent? ls it reasonably soon or could he put a date on it? MR. MARSHALL: I cannot say that, Mr. Speaker, because of course this will be dependent upon when the federal government is completely ready with respect to this area.

All I can say is that we benefitted greatly by our year-and-a-half, two years, certainly the first year­ and-a-half of the various task force studies and happily we are in the po~tion, more so than any other province in Canada, of being -2673 1'_.

March 26, 1974 Tape 876 (Afternoon) PK - 1 ready, willing and able to sign most of these agreements. I know that they are in the process• Now in answer to the question, the honourable member's question,we are just really waiting to sign it and we hope in the very near future but I could not give him in the interim date- It depends on Ottawa. MR. SIMMONS: Just for clarification, ~r. Chairman, d~ I understand the minister as saying that the government are ready, that the government knows what it wants in that agreement and that the ne.xt move is up to the federal government: Is that correct?

MR, MARSHALL: This is my understandjng of the situation, Mr. Chairman, yes. Substantially, you know it is substantially up to the federal government. We have a great deal of our background work done and we have spent a large amount of time formulating plans and policies and various approaches. We have a fairly good list of the needs of the people ~nd of the province and in fact what we are waiting on is the federal government. On motion Head XVII - Transportation and Co11111unications carried. HEAD XX - PROVINCIAL AFFAIRS AND ENVIRONMENT. $1]5-_.D.O.Q .. HON. W. G.

DAWE (MINISTER OF PROVINCIAL AFFAIRS AND ENVIRONMENT): Calling for a quorum. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. DAWE: Oh, I am sorry. Mr. Chairman, these amounts are broken down into,firstly, $675,000 for Co-operative Registry Loans. These were loans to two co-operatives in particular, Midland Consumers Co-operative, Pasadena,and Carol Wabush Co-operative in Labrador City. Midland's as we know went defunct last fall because of business and managements and other - actually patrons were not patro~izing the place like t~ ehould have been doing.

Perhaps out of a membership of •Ol!lewhere i~ the vicinity of 130 , 98 of these were purchasing at the Corner Brook Co-op, therefore it caused the Midland~s to get into very serious difficulties. Carol-Wabush n