British Columbia Hansard — Monday, March 27, 2006 (38th Parliament, 2nd Session) (H0327pm-04) (H0327pm 04)

H0327pm-04

British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)

Second Session, 38th Parliament OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY (HANSARD) Monday, March 27, 2006 Afternoon Sitting Volume 8, Number 4 THE HONOURABLE BILL BARISOFF, SPEAKER ISSN 0709-1281

PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871) LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR Her Honour the Honourable Iona V. Campagnolo, CM, OBC SECOND SESSION, 38TH PARLIAMENT SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Bill Barisoff EXECUTIVE COUNCIL Premier and President of the Executive Council ............................................................................................................Hon. Gordon Campbell Minister of State for Intergovernmental Relations .......................................................................................................... Hon.

John van Dongen Deputy Premier and Minister of Education and Minister Responsible for Early Learning and Literacy...................... Hon. Shirley Bond Minister of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation .......................................................................................................Hon. Tom Christensen Minister of Advanced Education and Minister Responsible for Research and Technology ........................................... Hon.

Murray Coell Minister of Agriculture and Lands.......................................................................................................................................................Hon. Pat Bell Attorney General and Minister Responsible for Multiculturalism............................................................................... Hon. Wally Oppal, QC Minister of Children and Family Development ..........................................................................................................................Hon.

Stan Hagen Minister of State for Childcare ........................................................................................................................................................Hon. Linda Reid Minister of Community Services and Minister Responsible for Seniors’ and Women’s Issues........................................... Hon. Ida Chong Minister of Economic Development and Minister Responsible for the Asia-Pacific Initiative and the Olympics.................Hon.

Colin Hansen Minister of Employment and Income Assistance ...........................................................................................................Hon. Claude Richmond Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources .......................................................................................................Hon. Richard Neufeld Minister of State for Mining............................................................................................................................................................Hon.

Bill Bennett Minister of Environment and Minister Responsible for Water Stewardship and Sustainable Communities ...............Hon. Barry Penner Minister of Finance.......................................................................................................................................................................Hon. Carole Taylor Minister of Forests and Range and Minister Responsible for Housing ............................................................................. Hon.

Rich Coleman Minister of Health ......................................................................................................................................................................Hon. George Abbott Minister of Labour and Citizens’ Services .......................................................................................................................... Hon. Michael de Jong Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General................................................................................................................................Hon.

John Les Minister of Small Business and Revenue and Minister Responsible for Regulatory Reform............................................ Hon. Rick Thorpe Minister of Tourism, Sport and the Arts .........................................................................................................................................Hon. Olga Ilich Minister of Transportation...........................................................................................................................................................Hon.

Kevin Falcon LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Leader of the Official Opposition .........................................................................................................................................................Carole James Deputy Speaker ....................................................................................................................................................................................Sindi Hawkins Assistant Deputy Speaker.....................................................................................................................................................................Sue Hammell Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole.................................................................................................................................................

Harry Bloy Clerk of the Legislative Assembly .........................................................................................................................E. George MacMinn, OBC, QC Clerk Assistant.........................................................................................................................................................................................Robert Vaive Clerk Assistant and Law Clerk .......................................................................................................................................................Ian D.

Izard, QC Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees ....................................................................................................................................... Craig H. James Clerk Assistant and Committee Clerk ..........................................................................................................................................Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sergeant-at-Arms............................................................................................................................................................................. A.A.

Humphreys Director, Hansard Services ...................................................................................................................................................................Jo-Anne Kern Legislative Librarian ..................................................................................................................................................................................Jane Taylor Legislative Comptroller...............................................................................................................................................................................Dan Arbic

Party Standings: Liberal 46; New Democratic 33 ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS Abbott, Hon. George (L) .................................................................... Shuswap Austin, Robin (NDP)............................................................................. Skeena Bains, Harry (NDP).................................................................. Surrey-Newton Barisoff, Hon. Bill (L)..........................................Penticton–Okanagan Valley Bell, Hon. Pat (L) .............................................................Prince George North Bennett, Hon.

Bill (L) ............................................................... East Kootenay Black, Iain (L) ............................................................ Port Moody–Westwood Bloy, Harry (L)................................................................................Burquitlam Bond, Hon. Shirley (L).....................................Prince George–Mount Robson Brar, Jagrup (NDP).....................................................Surrey–Panorama Ridge Campbell, Hon.

Gordon (L) .........................................Vancouver–Point Grey Cantelon, Ron (L)..............................................................Nanaimo-Parksville Chong, Hon. Ida (L) .................................................... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Chouhan, Raj (NDP) ...........................................................Burnaby-Edmonds Christensen, Hon. Tom (L) ................................................. Okanagan-Vernon Chudnovsky, Dave (NDP)........................................... Vancouver-Kensington Coell, Hon.

Murray (L) .....................................Saanich North and the Islands Coleman, Hon. Rich (L)...........................................Fort Langley–Aldergrove Conroy, Katrine (NDP) .......................................... West Kootenay–Boundary Coons, Gary (NDP) ....................................................................... North Coast Cubberley, David (NDP)............................................................Saanich South de Jong, Hon.

Michael (L) ...................................Abbotsford–Mount Lehman Dix, Adrian (NDP) .........................................................Vancouver-Kingsway Evans, Corky (NDP).................................................................Nelson-Creston Falcon, Hon. Kevin (L) .......................................................

Surrey-Cloverdale Farnworth, Mike (NDP) ...............................Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Fleming, Rob (NDP) ..............................................................Victoria-Hillside Fraser, Scott (NDP) ..............................................................Alberni-Qualicum Gentner, Guy (NDP).......................................................................Delta North Hagen, Hon. Stan (L) ................................................................ Comox Valley Hammell, Sue (NDP) ................................................... Surrey–Green Timbers Hansen, Hon.

Colin (L) ..................................................Vancouver-Quilchena Hawes, Randy (L).......................................................... Maple Ridge–Mission Hawkins, Sindi (L) ............................................................... Kelowna-Mission Hayer, Dave S. (L) ................................................................

Surrey-Tynehead Hogg, Gordon (L)..............................................................Surrey–White Rock Horgan, John (NDP)......................................................Malahat–Juan de Fuca Horning, Al (L)........................................................... Kelowna–Lake Country Ilich, Hon. Olga (L)...............................................................Richmond Centre James, Carole (NDP).......................................................Victoria–Beacon Hill Jarvis, Daniel (L)..................................................

North Vancouver–Seymour Karagianis, Maurine (NDP) ........................................... Esquimalt-Metchosin Krog, Leonard (NDP)......................................................................... Nanaimo Krueger, Kevin (L)..............................................Kamloops–North Thompson Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP)........................... Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Lali, Harry (NDP)........................................................................

Yale-Lillooet Lee, Richard T. (L)....................................................................Burnaby North Lekstrom, Blair (L).............................................................. Peace River South Les, Hon. John (L)............................................................... Chilliwack-Sumas Macdonald, Norm (NDP).................................... Columbia River–Revelstoke MacKay, Dennis (L)....................................................

Bulkley Valley–Stikine Mayencourt, Lorne (L).......................................................Vancouver-Burrard McIntyre, Joan (L).................................................West Vancouver–Garibaldi Neufeld, Hon. Richard (L) .................................................. Peace River North Nuraney, John (L).............................................................Burnaby-Willingdon Oppal, Hon. Wally, QC (L).......................................... Vancouver-Fraserview Penner, Hon. Barry (L)...........................................................

Chilliwack-Kent Polak, Mary (L) ....................................................................................Langley Puchmayr, Chuck (NDP)...................................................... New Westminster Ralston, Bruce (NDP) ............................................................. Surrey-Whalley Reid, Hon. Linda (L) ................................................................ Richmond East Richmond, Hon. Claude (L).............................................................

Kamloops Robertson, Gregor (NDP) ................................................Vancouver-Fairview Roddick, Valerie (L).......................................................................Delta South Routley, Doug (NDP)..................................................... Cowichan-Ladysmith Rustad, John (L) ........................................................

Prince George–Omineca Sather, Michael (NDP).........................................Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Simons, Nicholas (NDP) ...................................Powell River–Sunshine Coast Simpson, Bob (NDP)..................................................................Cariboo North Simpson, Shane (NDP) ....................................................Vancouver-Hastings Sultan, Ralph (L) ....................................................West Vancouver–Capilano Taylor, Hon.

Carole (L).....................................................Vancouver-Langara Thorne, Diane (NDP) .................................................Coquitlam-Maillardville Thorpe, Hon. Rick (L).......................................................Okanagan-Westside Trevena, Claire (NDP) ..................................................................North Island van Dongen, Hon. John (L)............................................ Abbotsford-Clayburn Whittred, Katherine (L)........................................

North Vancouver–Lonsdale Wyse, Charlie (NDP) .................................................................Cariboo South Yap, John (L)...................................................................Richmond-Steveston LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING Abbotsford-Clayburn....................................................Hon. John van Dongen Abbotsford–Mount Lehman .......................................... Hon. Michael de Jong Alberni-Qualicum..........................................................................

Scott Fraser Bulkley Valley–Stikine ...........................................................Dennis MacKay Burnaby North ...........................................................................Richard T. Lee Burnaby-Edmonds........................................................................Raj Chouhan Burnaby-Willingdon................................................................... John Nuraney Burquitlam.......................................................................................Harry Bloy Cariboo North..............................................................................

Bob Simpson Cariboo South..............................................................................Charlie Wyse Chilliwack-Kent ..................................................................Hon. Barry Penner Chilliwack-Sumas...................................................................... Hon. John Les Columbia River–Revelstoke................................................. Norm Macdonald Comox Valley........................................................................ Hon.

Stan Hagen Coquitlam-Maillardville..............................................................Diane Thorne Cowichan-Ladysmith ................................................................. Doug Routley Delta North ...................................................................................Guy Gentner Delta South ............................................................................. Valerie Roddick East Kootenay....................................................................... Hon.

Bill Bennett Esquimalt-Metchosin.........................................................Maurine Karagianis Fort Langley–Aldergrove ..................................................Hon. Rich Coleman Kamloops.....................................................................Hon. Claude Richmond Kamloops–North Thompson .....................................................Kevin Krueger Kelowna–Lake Country.................................................................. Al Horning Kelowna-Mission ......................................................................

Sindi Hawkins Langley ...........................................................................................Mary Polak Malahat–Juan de Fuca .................................................................. John Horgan Maple Ridge–Mission ................................................................ Randy Hawes Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows ..................................................... Michael Sather Nanaimo......................................................................................

Leonard Krog Nanaimo-Parksville .....................................................................Ron Cantelon Nelson-Creston .............................................................................Corky Evans New Westminster .................................................................. Chuck Puchmayr North Coast....................................................................................

Gary Coons North Island ...............................................................................Claire Trevena North Vancouver–Lonsdale................................................Katherine Whittred North Vancouver–Seymour..........................................................Daniel Jarvis Oak Bay–Gordon Head ........................................................... Hon. Ida Chong Okanagan-Vernon......................................................... Hon. Tom Christensen Okanagan-Westside..............................................................Hon.

Rick Thorpe Peace River North.......................................................... Hon. Richard Neufeld Peace River South..................................................................... Blair Lekstrom Penticton–Okanagan Valley .................................................Hon. Bill Barisoff Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain ............................................Mike Farnworth Port Moody–Westwood.................................................................... Iain Black Powell River–Sunshine Coast ...............................................

Nicholas Simons Prince George North.................................................................... Hon. Pat Bell Prince George–Mount Robson ............................................Hon. Shirley Bond Prince George–Omineca................................................................ John Rustad Richmond Centre......................................................................Hon. Olga Ilich Richmond East........................................................................Hon.

Linda Reid Richmond-Steveston...........................................................................John Yap Saanich North and the Islands ............................................ Hon. Murray Coell Saanich South ........................................................................ David Cubberley Shuswap............................................................................Hon. George Abbott Skeena.......................................................................................... Robin Austin Surrey-Cloverdale............................................................... Hon.

Kevin Falcon Surrey–Green Timbers ................................................................Sue Hammell Surrey-Newton............................................................................... Harry Bains Surrey–Panorama Ridge.................................................................Jagrup Brar Surrey-Tynehead ....................................................................... Dave S.

Hayer Surrey-Whalley...........................................................................Bruce Ralston Surrey–White Rock .....................................................................Gordon Hogg Vancouver-Burrard..............................................................Lorne Mayencourt Vancouver-Fairview.............................................................Gregor Robertson Vancouver-Fraserview .................................................Hon.

Wally Oppal, QC Vancouver-Hastings .................................................................Shane Simpson Vancouver-Kensington.......................................................David Chudnovsky Vancouver-Kingsway ......................................................................Adrian Dix Vancouver-Langara ........................................................... Hon. Carole Taylor Vancouver–Mount Pleasant........................................ Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Vancouver–Point Grey ................................................Hon.

Gordon Campbell Vancouver-Quilchena.........................................................Hon. Colin Hansen Victoria–Beacon Hill...................................................................

Carole James Victoria-Hillside ...........................................................................Rob Fleming West Kootenay–Boundary........................................................Katrine Conroy West Vancouver–Capilano...........................................................Ralph Sultan West Vancouver–Garibaldi ........................................................Joan McIntyre Yale-Lillooet..................................................................................... Harry Lali

CONTENTS Monday, March 27, 2006 Afternoon Sitting Routine Proceedings Page Introductions by Members ....................................................................................................... .............................................. 3289 Introduction and First Reading of Bills........................................................................................ ......................................... 3291 Attorney General Statutes Amendment Act, 2006 (Bill 17) Settlement of International Investment Disputes Act (Bill 19) Hon. W. Oppal Finance Statutes Amendment Act, 2006 (Bill 18) Hon. C.

Taylor Christ for the Nations Bible College Act (Bill Pr402) D. Hayer Statements (Standing Order 25B) .............................................................................................................................. ............. 3293 MLA’s experience in health care system R. Sultan Education system in B.C. J. Horgan Joint-replacement surgery pilot project J. Yap Nature Trust of B.C. S. Simpson Volunteerism in Langley M. Polak Emergency response in Powell River N.

Simons Oral Questions................................................................................................................. ......................................................... 3295 Copeman clinic investigation C. James Hon. G. Abbott Public access to Medical Services Commission D. Cubberley Hon. G. Abbott J. Kwan Food services in Maple Ridge health care facilities M. Sather Hon. G. Abbott Mental health services on Sunshine Coast N. Simons Hon. G. Abbott Security of Accenture and B.C. Hydro employee information G. Gentner Hon. R. Neufeld Access to B.C. Ferries information D. Chudnovsky Hon. K.

Falcon M. Farnworth Committee of Supply............................................................................................................ ................................................... 3300 Estimates: Ministry of Employment and Income Assistance (continued) C. Trevena Hon. C. Richmond J. Brar

Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room Committee of Supply............................................................................................................ ................................................... 3324 Estimates: Ministry of Education and Minister Responsible for Early Learning and Literacy Hon. S. Bond J. Horgan C. Evans M. Sather

3289 MONDAY, MARCH 27, 2006 The House met at 2:03 p.m. Introductions by Members Hon. S. Bond: We are delighted that today begins Education Week in British Columbia. Earlier today in the Legislature we were able to recognize a number of outstanding participants in the public education sys- tem. With the forbearance of the House, I would very much like to introduce them to the Legislature today. I know we will want to recognize them. In the gallery today we have Ariane Ouellette, who is a student at Victor Brodeur secondary school. Ariane was one of 125 finalists taking

part in the 13th Dictée des Ameriques being held in the legislative hall of the Quebec National Assembly. I should tell you that Arianne had the best results for a British Columbia student, and she is considering a future — potentially — in political science, which we're very excited about. Nick Prince is with us. He is an adult learner. Nick had a challenging youth, but on Friday, May 28, 2005, Nick received his grade 12 diploma. He is the first adult to complete his grade 12 requirements at the Canucks Family Education Centre, located at the Britannia Com- munity Services Centre.

He is a full-time father of two who was deeply motivated by his seven- and nine-year- old children to actually do what he did. We're very hon- oured to have him here today. Carla Peace is with us today. She is a parent who is this year's winner of the George Matthews Award in recognition of her hard work and dedication. She began her volunteering in the Fort Nelson school district. Donald Hutchinson is with us. He is a teacher at Montgomery Middle School. Donald is one of ten re- cipients of the 2005 Physical Education Teacher of the Year Award.

This award recognizes ten provincial re- cipients, and he's made an outstanding contribution to students in this province. Charlie Coleman is with us. He is the principal of Khowhemun Elementary in Duncan. Charlie has been identified as one of the four finalists for the Association for Supervision and Curriculum Development's Out- standing Young Educators Award. [1405] He is the first Canadian to be recognized and to be a finalist for this North American award. I told Charlie that we're going to be keeping our fingers crossed. He flies to Chicago this week, and I hope he's going to bring it back for B.C.

Charlie is with us. Wendy Herbert, who is a superintendent in the Gulf Islands, received the 2005 Distinguished Service Award given each year to selected B.C. school superin- tendents who have made a significant and exemplary contribution to public education in British Columbia. We have Marie Bourgeois, a trustee, and she is the president of the Conseil scolaire francophone. She has been active in the French-speaking community since her arrival in 1974, and this past year she was made a member of the Order of Canada, in fact, for her exem- plary work.

Finally and certainly not least, Rick Thomson is a school bus driver in Armstrong. He was involved in an incident that happened, involving two separate fatali- ties. In fact, Armstrong and the rest of the province recognize him as a hero. These are incredible people in the public education system, and they represent the type of people who work with our students every single day. Please help me make them feel very welcome. C. James: Joining us in the gallery today are two constituents of mine, David and Dr. Sandra Rifat.

David is on the board of directors of the Union Club and a pro- fessor emeritus of fine arts at the University of Toronto. Sandra was an epidemiologist at the Clarke Institute as well as the University of Toronto. They are newly ar- rived to Victoria. They've been here three years. To those of us in Victoria, they are newly arrived. Would the House please make them very welcome. Hon. S. Hagen: Today I had a wonderful lunch with a special group of people who are also joining us in the gallery today. What makes this group special is that they are all social workers from across British Co- lumbia.

This week we celebr ate Social Worker Week, a week dedicated to recognize and applaud the dedica- tion and commitment of social work professionals who touch the lives of thousands of British Columbians every day. Social workers play a vital role by supporting fami- lies through difficulties, helping them recognize their strengths, overcome challenges and achieve their goals and aspirations.

I am pleased to introduce to the House today Judy Nelson, a child protection social worker from Port Alberni; Shelle y Hamilton, a guardianship social worker from Vancouver; Cyndi Robinson, a fam- ily service social worker fr om our Princeton-Keremeos district office; and Kim Hetherington, a resource social worker from the Fraser region. Paul Jenkinson, another of our ministry social workers from the Fraser region, is also with us today. Paul recently received a Distinguished Service Award for Advocacy in Professional Practice from the B.C. Association of Social Workers.

I would also like to acknowledge Brenda Lewis, social worker and deputy director of child welfare from Prince George. Brenda is the nominee in the lead- ership category for a Prem ier's award for excellence and innovation. Please join me in thanking all social workers and these folks in particular for the incredible work they do, and extend to them a very, very warm welcome. C. Evans: Joining us on the floor of the House today is an esteemed gentleman who you can now name in here — Jimmy Doyle, who is the mayor of Golden. I have a bit of a request, ho n. Speaker.

As you and any- body who has heard the gentleman speak knows, he

3290 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES M ONDAY, MARCH 27, 2006 has a little bit of trouble with the King's English, and I was wondering if you could maybe assign one of the Pages to sit next to him and interpret in case he can't follow the proceedings. Maybe everybody could make him welcome. Hon. L. Reid: D a v i d H u g h e s i s w i t h u s t o d a y . David has had a long and distinguished career with Sierra Systems. In fact, Sierra Systems, a leader in high technology, is actually 40 years old this year. I would ask the House to acknowledge that and certainly to welcome David to our midst. [1410] C.

Trevena: I'd like the House to welcome Tobin Lange and Katherine Jorgensen, two new constitu- ents of mine. Tobin and Katherine recently moved to B.C. from Denmark. For Katherine it was a home- coming, and for Tobin a new departure. I'm happy to say they chose Campbell River as the place to set- tle, to start a new business and to work as a nurse. While Katherine and Tobin clearly love the natural landscape of the region, they are perhaps even more impressed by the warmth of people in Campbell River and the North Island. I hope the House will also extend a very warm welcome to Katherine and Tobin. Hon. C.

Hansen: It is with great pleasure that we welcome 73 grade five studen ts from Lord Kitchener Elementary School in th e riding of Vancouver- Quilchena. They are accompanied by 17 adults, includ- ing two of their teachers, Mrs. Dana Peterson and Alison Sharpe. Will the House please help me in mak- ing them very welcome. L. Krog: Two items. I don't think I'd be offend- ing the House rules by saying it's good to see the member for West Vancouver–Capilano back in his rightful spot — and, I might add, the picture of health. I would like to ask the House to make welcome Marilyn Brown.

She is a learning assistance and math teacher from Woodlands Secondary in my constituency and a hard-working member of the BCTF as well. If the House would make her welcome. Hon. R. Neufeld: You'll know it's a longstanding issue here in the House that it's not very often that I get to introduce someone from a constituency so far away. So it's a great pleasure for me today — although the Minister of Education ably introduced her — to rein- troduce to the House Carla Peace. She is this year's winner of the George Matthews Award.

She's a great parent, a good friend and a great citizen in the com- munity of Fort Nelson. Would everyone please make her welcome again. C. Wyse: It is indeed my pleasure today to intro- duce to the House Tanja and Tad Crowie along with their infant new Caribooster William, along with Jasana and Harvey Crowie. I look forward to joining them tonight for dinner, and I would ask the House to make them most welcome. Hon. G. Abbott: Like the Minister of Energy and Mines, I rarely get to introd uce constituents, so I'd like to introduce one from the Shuswap today.

Again, the Minister of Education briefly mentioned Rick Thomson earlier. Rick is a member of the Armstrong fire de- partment as well as a first responder for the Armstrong area, who serves the community of Armstrong re- markably well there. As the Education Minister noted, Rick has also served school district 83 and certainly the entire Shuswap very well in terms of being a dedicated em- ployee of school district 83. Rick was recognized earlier for his courageous and compassionate efforts under exceptionally difficult circumstances. I'd like the House to please make him welcome. M.

Sather: It was my pleasure today to have lunch with three teachers that are here to talk to MLAs about education issues, and I'd like to introduce two of them. Dr. Chiara Anselmo is a grade six-seven teacher, school district 73 in Kamloops. She has been teaching for 20 years. She's also a social justice activist and a strong advocate for public education. Janice Neden is a learning resource teacher from Kamloops, and she's a product of the public school service of B.C. as well as at the university level. She has a master's degree in education and has taught for over 30 years.

Would the House please join me in making them welcome. [1415] R. Cantelon: I would like to introduce two guests today from the Nanaimo District Teachers Association: Cindy Lowry and Carol McNamee. Cindy is a teacher- librarian at Woodlands Secondary School and past president of the Nanaimo District Teachers Associa- tion. Also with us today is Carol — a former English teacher of at least one of my children, as a matter of fact — the current president of the Nanaimo District Teach- ers Association. I would ask the House to please make them very welcome. G.

Gentner: Joining us in the House today is Sylvia Bishop, a dear friend of mine who goes back 25 years. Sylvia has been an elementary school teacher for over 20 years in Delta. She has served on the local teachers association executive and numer- ous of its committees. She currently works for the B.C. Teachers Federation in the communication and campaign division. Would the House please give her a warm welcome. K. Conroy: It gives me real pleasure today to intro- duce His Worship Gord Smith, who is mayor of Ross- land. He was a councillor and ran in the fall and be- came the mayor now.

It's really a pleasure to have him here in the House with us.

MONDAY, MARCH 27, 2006 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 3291 N. Macdonald: I just want to introduce again His Worship Jim Doyle, mayor of Golden. He served as mayor and councillor in Golden for a long time before serving here for ten years. He's back as mayor of Golden. He is a personal friend, and he taught me what it's like as an MLA. When I was mayor, he was my MLA, and he sort of set the standard for how you work with local government. So please, again, join me in making him feel welcome. D. Routley: I'd like the House to help me welcome Charlie Coleman, a principal from school district 79, Cowichan Valley.

Charlie's mother was my grade 5 teacher, and the only teacher who didn't give me the strap — the only one who did but didn't. I've got to give you a story here. I was shooting a piece of paper into my desk, not paying attention, and I missed the desk and hit his mom in the back of the head. So she turned around and said: "Who did that?" I just watched my hand go up. She had promised to give the strap to whoever did it, but knowing how honest I was, she took me into the hallway and said: "Look, I'm not going to give the strap, but you're not going to tell anyone that I'm not doing it." Interjection. D.

Routley: There you go. So I'd like all of us to help make Charlie welcome in the House. K. Krueger: Often things seem very adversarial in this place to the public looking on, but time and again we see how members actually really care about one another. I've actually missed Jimmy Doyle. I remember with fondness the day that he added the words, "Skude mussels," to every item on the menu in the parliamentary dining room. He ac- tually meant to say, "SCUD missile," but it sure sounded like skude mussels to us.

I want to join the member for Nanaimo in celebrat- ing the fact that time and again a certain member of the House proves that just because there's snow on the roof doesn't mean there isn't fire in the furnace. Our senior statesman is not going to let a little thing like a heart attack keep him from his job in this place, and we just really want to welcome him back. [Applause.] I hope I said West Vancouver–Capilano. Mr. Speaker: Seeing as how we got down to the end, we'll start all over again. Member for Malahat– Juan de Fuca. J. Horgan: Boy, there's so much to introduce.

I have to say that the member for West Vancouver–Capilano has the best hair in the Ho use, and there's not a white one on. Had I been recognized earlier, I might have got in ahead of my colleague from Cowichan-Ladysmith, but I want to acknowledge the presence of Charlie Coleman, as well, in the gallery today — the son of the former mayor of Duncan, the nephew of the current councillor in the city of Victoria and an outstanding leader in the Malahat–Juan de Fuca constituency. For- tunately, the traffic was light on the Malahat today, so he was able to get here.

The only drawback in Charlie's impressive resume is that when I first met him, he was wearing a Montreal Canadiens jersey, and I certainly don't hold that against him. Welcome, Charlie. [1420] Hon. M. de Jong: Moira McLean is a respected member of the legislative press gallery. Like most members, I am unaccustomed to using those two terms in the same sentence. However, she is today celebrating what we gener- ally refer to as a milestone birthday.

Now, it is not just outdated notions of chivalry that prevent me from dis- closing the milestone. but her eternal youthful counte- nance would, I'm sure, if I revealed the truth, expose me to charges of having misled the House. So I will not do so except to say happy birthday, Moira, on behalf of all of us here. D. Jarvis: I can't let it stop here. I just want to say, contrary to public belief or most people's belief, that I did only take six years to get through elementary school. So I, too, would like to congratulate those leav- ing from Lord Kitchener, as an alma mater. Mr.

Speaker: Sure there isn't anybody else to intro- duce? Welcome, everybody that wasn't. Introduction and First Reading of Bills ATTORNEY GENERAL STATUTES AMENDMENT ACT, 2006 Hon. W. Oppal presented a message from His Honour the Administrator: a bill intituled Attorney General Statutes Amendment Act, 2006. Hon. W. Oppal: I move that the bill be introduced and read a first time now. Motion approved. Hon. W. Oppal: I am pleased to introduce Bill 17.

The bill amends the follow ing statutes: the Business Corporations Act, Escheat Ac t, Estate Administration Act, Infants Act, Sheriff Act, S t a t u t e R e v i s i o n A c t . B i l l 17 also contains provisions to validate appointments made to the Electoral Boundaries Commission. I move that the bill be placed on the orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today. Bill 17, Attorney General Statutes Amendment Act, 2006, introduced, read a first time and ordered to be

3292 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES M ONDAY, MARCH 27, 2006 placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today. SETTLEMENT OF INTERNATIONAL INVESTMENT DISPUTES ACT Hon. W. Oppal presented a message from Her Honour the Lieutenant-Governor: a bill intituled Set- tlement of International Investment Disputes Act. Hon. W. Oppal: I move that the bill be introduced and read a first time now. Motion approved. Hon. W. Oppal: I am pleased to introduce Bill 19.

This bill would offer an international convention, a process which has been high ly effective and highly popular in settling disputes between international in- vestors. It has been adopte d in 140 countries, including the United States and all other members of the G8 na- tions. The convention, entitled th e convention on the settle- ment of disputes between st ates and nationals of other states, permits a private dispute resolution process that can be used to resolve international investment disputes between jurisdictions that are signatories to the conven- tion and persons from member jurisdictions.

The conven- tion would provide an effective method by which com- mercial disputes involving investment disputes which British Columbia investors abroad might encounter in any of the countries and are parties to that convention…. I move that the bill be placed on the orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of this House after today. [1425] Bill 19, Settlement of In ternational Investment Dis- putes Act, introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today. FINANCE STATUTES AMENDMENT ACT, 2006 Hon. C.

Taylor presented a message from Her Honour the Lieutenant-Governor: a bill intituled Finance Statutes Amendment Act, 2006. Hon. C. Taylor: I move the bill be introduced and read a first time now. Motion approved. Hon. C. Taylor: I am pleased to introduce the Fi- nance Statutes Amendment Act, 2006, which amends Ministry of Finance statutes, most notably the Business Corporations Act. The changes proposed to the Business Corporations Act will broaden public access to company share regis- ters, and make corrections an d technical refinements to the act and related statutes.

The bill also contains minor technical amendments to the Financial Institutions Act, as well as amendments that will update its provisions to apply the new Business Corporations Act rather than the old Company Act to extra-provincial financial institutions. The Finance Statutes Amendment Act, 2006, will amend the Mutual Fire Insurance Companies Act to reduce unnecessary regulato ry burden. This bill will also repeal an obsolete statute, the Pacific North Coast Native Cooperative Act, and make the technical amendments to the Public Sector Employers Act.

Finally, this bill will amend the Real Estate Services Act to streamline the treatment of real estate commis- sions by brokers and refine matters related to the new Real Estate Compensation Fund. Mr. Speaker, I move the bill be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today. Bill 18, Finance Statut es Amendment Act, 2006, introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sit- ting of the House after today. CHRIST FOR THE NATIONS BIBLE COLLEGE ACT D.

Hayer presented a bill intituled Christ for the Nations Bible College Act. D. Hayer: I move the bill be introduced and now read a first time. Motion approved. D. Hayer: It is with great pleasure that I act as a sponsor of this bill to create a degree-granting status for the post-secondary institution located in my com- munity of Surrey. Christ for the Nations was established as a non- profit missionary agency in Canada in 1978 and began offering interdenominational diploma-level programs in 1989.

The Christ for the Na tions Institute in Dallas, Texas, was the founding school of the Canadian col- lege, which now operates independently of its foun- ders as one of 44 colleges throughout the world. The Canadian college is located in my community of Surrey and has approximately 75 students and 14 faculty. It presently offers diploma- and certificate- level programs with an emph asis on practical ministry training.

A proposed Christ for the Nations Bible Col- lege Act is a private bill which, if passed, will continue the Christ for the Nations Bible College and set out its original structure, authority, rights and obligations. Legal counsel for the proponents has advised that the college is already incorporated under the Society Act and is pursuing a private bill to obtain authority to grant theological degrees in its own name and right, despite sections on degree-granting set out in other legislation. As well, theological colleges find it benefi-

MONDAY, MARCH 27, 2006 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 3293 cial to incorporate under the legislation in order to permit their students to qualify for student financial assistance. This bill has been reviewed by both the Ministry of Finance and the Ministry of Advanced Education and meets their criteria. I'm supporting this bill, and I ask that all members of the House also support this worthy goal. I move that the bill be referred to the Select Stand- ing Committee on Parliamentary Reform, Ethical Con- duct, Standing Orders and Private Bills.

Bill Pr402, Christ for the Nations Bible College Act, introduced, read a first time and referred to the Select Standing Committee on Parliamentary Reform, Ethical Conduct, Standing Orders and Private Bills. [1430] Statements (Standing Order 25B) MLA’S EXPERIENCE IN HEALTH CARE SYSTEM R. Sultan: A s C h a i r o f t h i s Legislature's Health Committee, I seized a recent opportunity to give the system a grassroots test. It passed with flying col- ours. Through the dedication of Sergeant-at-Arms Humphreys and his staff, the paramedics of B.C. Am- bulance Service — a fine group of people — cardiac specialist Dr.

Kinkle, countless nurses, care aides and hospital support workers at Royal Jubilee Hospital, through to my own Dr. Kroll and cardiac home care specialist Nurse Solly…. Through all their combined efforts, they patched me up to live another day. We've all heard the message about ActNow and five and 20 — the importance of five fruits and vegeta- bles a day and 20 minutes of exercise. But hearing isn't doing. I had to be whacked on the head with the equivalent of a two-by-four to pay attention before I took it to heart — no pun intended. I am sure acting now.

According to the specialists, 25 years ago I would have been a dead man. Now I felt I was ready to go back to work the very next day. From my first feelings of heartburn during question period…. [Laughter.] Well, we've all experienced that. You know, I must say I did stand up with some trepidation, knowing immediately what happened last time. But from question period until I was discharged from the operating room wa s only 150 minutes. In a situation where minutes count, that is, I think, extraor- dinary. So bring on the broccoli and the running shoes; down with television and French fries. It's great to be back.

Thank you to the almost 500 members, friends and constituents who were so gracious with their vari- ous expressions of support. EDUCATION SYSTEM IN B.C. J. Horgan: It's a pleasure to rise and join with other members today in acknowledging the beginning of Education Week here in British Columbia. As the offi- cial opposition Education critic, I've been travelling around the province meetin g with students, teachers, parents, trustees, support workers and superinten- d e n t s .

A l t h o u g h w e a l w a y s h a v e m o r e w o r k t o d o , I have been struck by the commitment and quality of the many individuals and communities across this prov- ince that dedicate their time and energy to improving the educational experience of our students. Indeed, these exceptional individuals have contributed to make our public education system the envy of the country — and perhaps the best in the world. But school is not just ab out academic achievement.

A l t h o u g h w e s c o r e v e r y w e l l i n t r a d i t i o n a l m e a s u r e - ments, the greatest achievement of our school system is the impact on the social and emotional development of our young citizens. We are, of course, producing fine scholars and poets, athletes and musicians, but we are also shaping the character of the future community leaders in our province. With the Minister of Education, I met Nick Prince today, a father of school-aged children in Vancouver.

He recently returned to fini sh his grade 12 so that he could tell his kids the importance of hard work, sacri- fice and perseverance. It's stories like Nick's right across this province that are an inspiration to me and to all of our members in this House. So I encourage you, members, to take advantage of this week to visit a school in your community, meet some teachers and support workers, go to a basketball game, go to a track meet, take in a play or a school band production and celebrate the accomplishments of our outstanding students.

At the same time, I'd like you to celebrate the accomplishments of those students who overcome obstacles every day just to be in the classroom. They, too, are an inspiration to all of us, and I urge you to do that at your earliest opportunity. JOINT-REPLACEMENT SURGERY PILOT PROJECT J. Yap: Keeping with the theme of health care, I rise today to talk about the resu lts of the joint-replacement surgery pilot project that began in Richmond in 2004. The provincial government, Vancouver Coastal Health and Richmond Hospital established this project to re- duce wait times for hip and knee replacements.

The project has been an outstanding success. It has been so successful that UBC hospital is setting up two operat- ing rooms to duplicate this initiative in Vancouver. Our government provided $500,000, and the Rich- mond Hospital Foundation and Vancouver Coastal Health each contributed $400,000 to renovate and open a sixth operating room at the hospital. [1435] The goal of this project was to use the operating room more efficiently to perform knee- and hip-

3294 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES M ONDAY, MARCH 27, 2006 replacement surgeries. Stan dardized equipment, sup- plies and prostheses were used to achieve a 40-percent increase in the number of joint-replacement surgeries performed. Other improvem ents: in-patient prepara- tion and post-operation care reduced hospital stays for the surgeries, freeing up beds for other patients. Finding improvements in joint-replacement surgery is vital to our health care system in British Columbia.

The number of seniors in this province is projected to double by 2028, and we will be providing more joint- replacement surgeries than ever before. I'd like to congratulate Dr. Ken Hughes and Cindy Roberts, who led the project. Their success will pro- foundly improve the lives of countless British Colum- bians as more hospitals du plicate their methods. Dr. Jeff Coleman, the chief operating officer of Richmond Health Services, also deserves recognition for his con- tinuing efforts to find innovations to improve the qual- ity of care provided by Richmond Hospital.

This project furthers our government's goal to build the best system of supports for B.C. seniors by improv- ing the mobility, health and quality of life for our sen- iors. NATURE TRUST OF B.C. S. Simpson: I'm pleased to rise today in the House to ask that the House help to celebrate the 35th anni- versary of the incorporation of the Nature Trust of Brit- ish Columbia. The Nature Trust is British Columbia's oldest and largest non-profit land conservation organi- zation.

Its mandate is to protect B.C.'s natural diversity of wildlife and plants in th eir critical habitat through the acquisition and management of ecologically signifi- cant land. The trust is a non-advocacy group working with landowners, corporations, other conservation organiza- tions, governments and individuals to achieve its con- servation objectives. Since 1971 the trust has invested over $65 million to secure more than 150,000 acres in British Columbia. Of their 120 acquisitions, 11 are now managed as provincial parks. This land is now valued at over $500 million.

The Nature Trust uses sc ience-based analysis, tech- nology and expertise to purchase land with the highest biodiversity values and land which is at the greatest risk of being lost. They use an innovative approach to accomplish their objectives, including land purchases, conservation covenants and ecological gifts, among others.

This is always done in line with their mission statement, which states: "To conserve critical habitats and the naturally occurring plants and animals they nurture as well as other areas of ecological significance and scenic beauty throughout British Columbia." In addition to their pu rchases, the trust manages over 229 properties, with the goals of ensuring that the long-term ecological and habitat values for which the land was acquired are achieved.

Whether it is through their acquisitions or thei r youth crew, which gives young people an excellent life and work experience while supporting habitat restoration and cleanups, the Nature Trust makes a remarkable contribution to Brit- ish Columbia. I urge all members to join me in con- gratulating them on their 35th anniversary. VOLUNTEERISM IN LANGLEY M. Polak: On February 3, at a very special dinner, Veronica Volunteer, a.k.a. Pauline Huth, shared her experiences as a lifelong vo lunteer. Pauline's alter ego Veronica made it up close and personal.

Pauline Huth is the executive director at Langley's Meals on Wheels. Her speech at the Langley city volunteer appreciation dinner brought the house down. As she played the role of Veronica Volunteer, every honoured volunteer in the room saw a bit of themselves. Volunteers from all walks of life give rides, visit the sick and elderly, prepare me als and assist all manner of charitable organizations. They give of themselves, asking nothing in return. Yet according to Veronica Volunteer, it is the best and most satisfying lifestyle one could possibly imagine.

My riding of Langley is rich in the spirit of volun- teerism, so much so that appreciation events are a regular feature of the social calendar. In addition to the Langley city volunteer appreciation where Veronica Volunteer made her appearance, two upcoming events will pay tribute to those generous individuals who make our community the welcoming, supportive place that it is.

On April 6 the township of Langley will hon- our its volunteers, and on April 7 the local RCMP de- tachment will pay tribute to community members who work to enhance the community aspect of policing. [1440] Volunteers are the unsung heroes of my commu- nity and yours. Their cont ributions are invaluable. Somehow an award or gala dinner just doesn't seem to suffice to show how much we appreciate the work that they do, so the next time you meet a volunteer, take the time to thank them. Let th em know personally how much their work means to you. EMERGENCY RESPONSE IN POWELL RIVER N.

Simons: I'm pleased to rise today to inform the House about an incident that took place last month in the early hours of the morning in Powell River. The reason I'm pleased is because most members haven't heard about what happened that morning. The reason they haven't heard about it is because of the dedication, the good training, the hard work and the courage of the men and women of the emergency services in Powell River.

Early on that February morning a propane tank slipped off a trailer as it was being unloaded from a barge in Powell River, shearing off the valve and re- leasing a cloud of 35,000 litres of liquid propane into the air. Any ignition source would have sent a 20-metre fireball into the air. Everything within a 75-metre ra- dius would have ignited. Th e driver of the truck, John Veenhof, immediately alerted the Superior Propane manager of the accident.

MONDAY, MARCH 27, 2006 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 3295 When he realized there were four refrigeration units running on the barge, he went back down and turned them off. This migh t have prevented the explo- sion. On the barge were 60, 000 kilograms of gasoline, over 35,000 kilograms of heating oil and close to 30,000 kilograms of toxic chemicals. The manager of Superior Propane, Doug Miller, immediately turned off all sources of ignition in the area and remained on the scene to assist the firefigh ters, knowing full well the dangers he was in.

Chief Dean Gerhart, the director of fire and emer- gency services, took charge, immediately identified a 700-metre extreme danger zo ne, opened an emergency operations centre and ordered evacuation of at least 40 nearby residences. Accordin g to Doug Nauer, the mu- nicipal emergency coordinator, his professionalism and the manner in which he performed his duties have obviously filtered through his department and were evident in the way all the members of the department handled the situation.

H e g o e s o n t o s t a t e : " I ' m o f t h e f i r m b e l i e f t h a t i t was only due to the action taken by the responders at the scene that this community did not experience a disaster that would have resulted in a major loss of life." These firefighters includ ed Captain Duff; firefight- ers Baker, Jones and Culos; and auxiliary firefighters Arrowsmith, Cleghorn, Fair, Foort, Hodgins, Hretchka, Rob Infanti, Oele and Pamela Iwasiuk. RCMP members who remained in the danger zone while evacuating houses included constables Nassichuk, Huisman, Racz and Paquette.

I join the officials of the city and region in thanking them for their hard work. Oral Questions COPEMAN CLINIC INVESTIGATION C. James: The Health Minister has referred the is- sue of the Copeman clinic's extra-billing scheme to the Medical Services Commission. Can the minister please tell this House, specifically, what he has sent to the Medical Services Commission in regard to his concerns regarding extra billing, and will he make any of those materials public? Hon. G.

Abbott: We have asked the Medical Ser- vices Commission to look into this issue because under the Medicare Protection Act, they are the appropriate body to which to refer such matters. We have asked them, in particular, to look at whether the operations, the business model, at the Copeman centre are in ac- cord with the federal and provincial statutory frame- work which guide us in this province. Mr. Speaker: Leader of the Opposition has a sup- plemental. C.

James: I think the public really wants to know not only the minister's view but, in fact, this govern- ment's view around the concern that has been taken to the Medical Services Commi ssion. Those concerns, as we know, actually led to a legal opinion in Ontario that said that Mr. Copeman's scheme did in fact violate the Canada Health Act. This is a very serious issue. If the Medical Services Commission rules in favour of Mr. Copeman's extra-billing scheme, it could in fact provide a how-to manual for other doctors when it comes to extra billing. My question is to the minister.

Has the government sought a legal opinion on this issue, and will he make that legal opinion public as part of his submission to the medical commission? Hon. G. Abbott: Just so the record is clear, the Leader of the Opposition referenced an Ontario legal opinion. I hope she will clarify for the House that that is not an opinion from the government of Ontario. It is in fact, as I understand it, a legal opinion from a private party or a private organization in Ontario.

I don't be- lieve the government of Ontario is any more in the habit of releasing its opinions than the government of British Columbia is. [1445] The issue is an important one, and we have secured advice from a range of sources as we have moved for- ward with the important issue with Mr. Copeman. We have been in discussion for some months, as the Leader of the Opposition well knows, with Mr. Copeman to try to fully understand the business model that guides his new clinic and to determine whether that clinic is within or outside of the bounds of the Canada Health Act and the Medicare Protection Act. Mr.

Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition has a further supplemental. C. James: In fact, there is a difference between Brit- ish Columbia and Ontario, and the difference is that the Ontario government has spoken out loud and clear and said no to Mr. Copeman and no to extra-billing. The commission's decision on this issue could affect every family in British Columbia and could determine whether or not patients pay extra fees to see their fam- ily doctor. Mr. Copeman has said that he intends to make his argument to the commission defending his scheme that charges extra fees just to see a doctor.

This is a very simple qu estion to the Minister of Health. What legal representation does the minister intend to take to the commission to defend public in- terest in this case? Hon. G. Abbott: The Medical Services Commission performs its work independently. I understand that without any presumptions one way or another, they will pursue this matter objectively and professionally to determine the best advice that they might provide to me as minister or to undertake whatever action they deem appropriate under the te rms of their act. But the commission is independent.

Again, I don't believe that anything is served by the kind of rhetoric which appears to be embodied in the

3296 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES M ONDAY, MARCH 27, 2006 Leader of the Opposition's question. Again, it's hard to believe, given that some 28 private clinics opened up under the NDP back in the 1990s, that they should be coming forward with such sanctimonious rhetoric. PUBLIC ACCESS TO MEDICAL SERVICES COMMISSION D. Cubberley: You, know, I find it interesting that the minister continues to wilfully confuse the issue of private clinics with the issue of user fees. I don't believe that we on this side and the public are taken in by that.

After nine and a half months, the minister asked the Medical Services Commission to make a decision that will affect every family in British Columbia — whether doctors will continue to be prohibited from charging patients money fo r access to their services. This decision has a potential to determine whether public health care remains universal or not. A lot is riding on it, so it's essential that there be an open process.

Can the minister assure the House that the Medical Services Commission remains a public body and that he will ensure it follows an open process so that con- cerned members of the public can have access to the commission to present their opinions? Hon. G. Abbott: I don't know whether the model that the member opposite has in mind is Perry Mason or some broader opportunity. The Medical Services Com- mission acts as the Medical Services Commission acts under the mandate that's accorded to it in the Medicare Protection Act.

The powers of the commission are laid out very clearly in a number of sections, particularly sections 15 and 37. They will operate exactly as they should operate. They will be undertaking some fact- finding in respect of the Copeman clinic.

They will be looking very closely at its bu siness model, at how it is represented in its website and how it's represented in other promotional materials. [1450] Again, as we've said from the start, the concern here is: do the fees that are put forward by the Cope- man clinic represent barriers to access under the terms of the Medicare Protection Act provincially and the Canada Health Act federally? That is what the commis- sion will determine. Mr. Speaker: Member for Saanich South has a sup- plemental. D.

Cubberley: Well, you know, the minister didn't actually respond to the question: is it a public body, and will it be open to the public? The members opposite thought it was an important question when they were in opposition. They brought exactly that question to the government of the day.

In fact, the Minister of Econom ic Development, then the H e a l t h c r i t i c , n o t e d : " O n e o f t h e g r o u p s t h a t d o e s n o t feel they're represented at the table in terms of the Medical Services Commission is probably the group that has the most at stake, and that's the public." He said it was a matter of "grave concern" to the public how their health care dollars would be spent. He was right. He asked the minister of the day for just the kind of assurances we're seeking — that the meetings would b e o p e n .

S h e s a i d : " T h e a d v i c e t h a t w e h a v e f r o m t h e Attorney General…is that there is no reason to, and we don't actually have a right to, hold those meetings 'in secret' or 'in private.'" So the question is: now you're the government, will the minister agree that the Medical Services Commis- s i o n m e e t i n g s c o n t i n u e t o b e o p e n t o t h e p u b l i c a n d that persons other than Mr. Copeman will have the opportunity to present arguments to the commission on issues affecting the future of public health care? Interjection. Mr. Speaker: Member. Hon. G.

Abbott: The Medical Services Commission does not operate at my discretion or at my direction. The Medical Services Commission is an independent body that will act appropriately, given their statutory framework. If the members opposite wish to make a submission to the Medical Services Commission, they should contact the commission and see if that is possi- ble. I don't determine whether that's possible or not.

It's interesting that ever since the controversy around the Copeman clinic first emerged, the members opposite — particularly the Health critic and the Leader of the Opposition — have been saying over and over again: "Oh, just shut it down; just shut it down." Now, when we're going to the appropriate body, the Medical Services Commission, somehow that process is flawed as well. It makes me recall the words of one of their former colleagues, a former NDP Minister of Forests, who said: "Government can do anything it wants." Clearly, that's the way they think th ese things should operate.

But we believe it has to be fair, it has to be objective, it has to be professional and it has to be comprehensive, and it has to be the right thing for the province of Brit- ish Columbia. J. Kwan: A simple question for the minister — no rhetoric: are the meetings and deliberations of the Medical Services Commission held in public? Hon. G. Abbott: The member should refer to the act if she wishes to find out the answer to that question. Mr. Speaker: Member for Vancouver–Mount Pleasant has a supplemental. J. Kwan: You know what?

I'm actually going to refer to the former Minister of Health, who was in opposition and who's now the current Minister of Eco- nomic Development. When he asked the question of former minister Penny Priddy if the meetings and de- liberations of the Medical Services Commission were

MONDAY, MARCH 27, 2006 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 3297 public, the minister then said yes — that they were. The former Minister of Health said, on record, that it is crucial that the public have access to that information. We're now talking about user fees that impact po- tentially every single British Columbian. This govern- ment is accountable to that question, and I will give the minister another opportunity to answer the question that his own former minister put to the government then: are meetings and deli berations of the Medical Services Commission public?

Does he deem that in- formation important enough that those meetings are actually held in public so the public can access the in- formation and deliberations of the Medical Services Commission? [1455] Hon. G. Abbott: This is a fascinating exercise in civics that we're undertaking here today, for sure. The powers of the Medical Services Commission were actu- ally defined by the former NDP government back in the 1990s. That's when the commission was created, in statute, under the Medicare Protection Act.

When one has issues like the Copeman clinic, that is where, under the legislation that was passed by this former government, one goes to get answers to those questions. There are a numb er of provisions in the Medicare Protection Act, notably sections 15 and 37, that define the scope and authority of the commission in determining these things. It is entirely the right place for these questions to be resolved. I think every citizen of British Columbia, save pos- sibly the few across the way here, certainly deserves to get answers that are unbiased, that are objective and that are independent.

That is precisely why we have put this matter to the Medical Services Commission. FOOD SERVICES IN MAPLE RIDGE HEALTH CARE FACILITIES M. Sather: Last week the Minister of Health said that one of the issues in the debate around rethermal- ized food in hospitals, health care facilities and long- term care facilities had to do with tastiness. I have a question for the minister. Will the minister commit to eating retherm food from Ridge Meadows Hospital every day until his audit is complete, and will he report back to this House on how tasty it was? Hon. G. Abbott: My goodness.

The well is getting fairly dry, I'd say. I know these 30-minute question periods do wear down the number of available ques- tions that one can advance to government ministers. But you know, I have actually eaten rethermalized food at a hospital facility. It wasn't Hy's; it wasn't Bishop's. But it wasn't bad either. It was pretty good. I asked the member the question the other day. He didn't get a chance to answer because he was on a sup- plemental, so I'll ask him fi rst time round here.

Is he willing to commit on behalf of this pretend govern- ment across the way that should they ever be elected in the future, they will ban rethermalized food? I'd be fascinated to know that, particularly given that in 1995 it was the folks across the way that were the authors, the pioneers of food rethermalization in this province — 1995, Lions Bay hospital. Are you go- ing to ban it in the future? Let me know. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Members. The member for Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows has the floor. M.

Sather: Well, it's unfortunate that the minister takes this cavalier attitude towards a very important issue to the residents in my constituency. Two of the other factors that the minister men- tioned last week around this issue had to do with nutri- tional content of the food and food safety. Now, the nutritional audit that the minister is planning is going to take two years, but surely if the minister were to eat this rethermalized food every day, as the residents of the Ridge Meadows Hospital long-term care facilities have to do, the audit would be unnecessary.

On the question of food safety: does the minister have any information whatsoever that the food at Ridge Meadows Hospital was unsafe before the rethermalized system was put into place? Hon. G. Abbott: I'm still waiting for an answer to my question of whether the…. Mr. Speaker: Minister, you're not asking the ques- tions. You're answering them. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. [1500] Hon. G. Abbott: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I under- stood this was question period, not answer period. However, let me frame my answer in this construc- tive way. There is no reason to fear food safety prior to rethermalization.

I'm sure that in 1995 when the NDP first brought rethermalized food into the hospital system, they didn't d o i t b e c a u s e o f s a f e t y i s s u e s . I ' m s u r e t h e y d i d i t f o r other reasons. I know that Fraser Health Authority has been working diligently to s ee the quality, tastiness, safety and reliability of food s constantly improved at facilities throughout the Fras er Health Authority. I do look forward to that commitment on the part of the op- position in respect of getting rid of rethermalization. MENTAL HEALTH SERVICES ON SUNSHINE COAST N.

Simons: My question is for the Minister of Health. The six-bed psychiatric unit at St. Mary's Hos- pital in Sechelt is the only facility for patients with acute mental illness on the Sunshine Coast. Last month it was closed without any warning, sending patients to

3298 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES M ONDAY, MARCH 27, 2006 the general ward and others literally out into the street. Can the minister please inform the House when this government will provide the adequate resources and encouragement to get that unit open again? Hon. G. Abbott: This government invests well over $1 billion a year every year on mental health and ad- dictions issues. It is one of the most important things that we do, as a Ministry of Health and as a govern- ment, to ensure that in fact there is the capital invest- ment and capital reinvestment in mental health facili- ties around the province.

I appreciate the member bringing forward this issue, and I would be pleased to follow up and provide him with further information in respect of that particular facility and the programs it offers. Mr. Speaker: The member for Powell River– Sunshine Coast has a supplemental. N. Simons: There seems to be a disconnect between the statements that the minister is making and the real- ity on the ground. Unfortunately, I'm hearing very dis- turbing stories from consti tuents. On the day of the closure of this particular facility, one was given a cheque to stay in a local hostel.

One was recommended to go to the transition house. Another, after that situa- tion arose, is now living homeless on the streets of Vancouver. In both cases, primary caregivers learned of the unit's closure when the patients called them. Can the Minister of Health please explain how sending psychiatric patients to a hostel or to a day- surgery waiting room for a week constitutes health care when and where people need it? Hon. G. Abbott: I understand that Vancouver Coastal Health Authority is working very hard to try to get that unit reopened, and it will be reopening as soon as possible.

If the member is looking for a disconnect, however, what he should look at is the disconnect be- tween the NDP's mental health plan of 1998, which was a cost of $125 million, which the minister of the day, Penny Priddy, admitted not one cent was funded for…. We've reversed that. We are now providing over $1 billion annually for mental health and addictions is- sues. It is a very important investment by this govern- ment. Not only do we walk the walk; we talk the talk as well. SECURITY OF ACCENTURE AND B.C. HYDRO EMPLOYEE INFORMATION G.

Gentner: We have learned of a serious informa- tion breach at foreign-owned Accenture that affects over 4,200 employees of B.C. Hydro and 1,500 at Ac- centure itself. Employees' names, numbers and salary and bank account information have been compro- mised. These employees must now consider monitor- ing their accounts for irregular debit activity, contact- ing appropriate credit agencies to advise of the breach, changing account numbers and changing PIN num- bers. Can the minister responsible for B.C. Hydro con- firm that Accenture knew of this breach of security early last week — Monday or Tuesday?

Why did it take Accenture until Thursday evening to notify B.C. Hydro and until Friday, Marc h 24, to notify its em- ployees? [1505] Hon. R. Neufeld: This government takes seriously, and I take seriously, any breach of information — or privacy information actually getting into the wrong hands. This issue came to me on Friday morning. The Crown had already acted on it in letting people know that something had happened. We should make it clear here. Someone broke into an office of Accenture Business Services and actually cut a chain holding a computer and stole that com- puter.

That's a criminal act, and I'm not going to com- ment on days or time or who. Right now the RCMP are fully investigating what took place, what happened. When they finish their investigation — I d o n ' t w a n t t o c o m p r o m i s e i t i n a n y way — they will let us know what took place. Mr. Speaker: The member for Delta North has a supplemental. G. Gentner: Maybe the minister doesn't want to compromise the situation, but the integrity of many of the employees has already been compromised. The CEO of Hydro has appealed with cap in hand to Accenture to provide a review of this incident.

Can the minister ask the Privac y Commissioner whether or not he has the authority to review a security breach of a private company which is in control of B.C. Hydro's employee and customer information? Hon. R. Neufeld: I'm happy to tell the member that, actually, the Freedom of Information and Privacy Act applies to Accenture Business Services — to those services that are provided to the Crown, B.C. Hydro and B.C. Transmission Corp. ACCESS TO B.C. FERRIES INFORMATION D. Chudnovsky: Will the Minister of Transporta- tion commit today to putting B.C. Ferries back under freedom-of-information legislation? Hon. K.

Falcon: As I mentioned last week to this House, we need to remind the members opposite why, i n f a c t , B . C . F e r r i e s w a s m a d e t o b e a n i n d e p e n d e n t company. Why did we do that? We did that because, following the fast ferries fiasco, there were recommen- dations made, including by the Auditor General. I might quote from the Auditor General for the member, because apparently my comments last week weren't compelling enough. The Auditor General, as a result of one of three reviews that were done following

MONDAY, MARCH 27, 2006 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 3299 the fast ferries fiasco, said — pages 51 to 52 for that member, who may not have read the report: "…the province amend the B.C. Ferries enabling legislation to vest its powers in" — a truly accountable — "inde- pendent board of directors with responsibility for gov- erning, exempt from political and bureaucratic inter- ference." That's exactly what we did. We did it to ensure that politicians and governments don't have the ability to interfere with the operations of B.C. Ferries. Mr. Speaker: The member for Vancouver-Kensington has a supplemental. D.

Chudnovsky: It's interesting that the minister would talk about political interference. Interjection. Mr. Speaker: Member. Continue. D. Chudnovsky: It's interesting that the minister would refer to political interference, because last Thursday in this House this Minister of Transporta- tion talked about instructions that were given by this government to B.C. Ferries regarding three ships in the northern fleet. We don't ca ll that political interfer- ence.

But without freedom-of-information legislation in place, the people of B.C. have no way of determin- ing what the instructions that this minister talked about were and what impact they had and have on safety. My question to the Minist er of Transportation: will the minister commit today to putting B.C. Ferries back under freedom-of-information legislation? Or will he table in this House any instructions, advice, require- ments or other correspondence between the govern- ment and B.C. Ferries as regards safety and mainte- nance? Hon. K. Falcon: I think the member is confusing some things here.

Actually, we set out, in the Coastal Ferry Act in 2003, on April 1, clear direction that B.C. Ferries was to replace the northern vessels within a ten- year period. That was written into the contract that B.C. Ferries is required to uphold. It's not interfering. It's just providing initial direction in the initial contract that provides the terms of reference under which they're to operate. [1510] In terms of freedom of information, the member is concerned about safety apparently. The member should know that B.C. Ferries is no different than our airlines. It's no different than the railways.

If the mem- ber wishes to access freedom-of-information requests through Transport Canada or through the Transporta- tion Safety Board, the member is free to do that. I can tell you that all those reports will be made available, any that are not public. The member can certainly ac- cess the federal freedom-of-information act. But let's not forget the accountabilities that were built into place here — an independent ferries commis- sioner. We've got an independent board with represen- tatives of small communities and labour and others that sit on that board. We've got audited financial statements.

We've got an annual general meeting. There's lots of accountability at B.C. Ferries. M. Farnworth: There is $127 million worth of tax- payers' money going into B.C. Ferries. FOI is about accountability. It's not about interference. Can the min- ister tell us: if FOI is good enough for Accenture — as was just stated by the Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum — why isn't it good enough for B.C. Ferries and the taxpayers of British Columbia? Hon. K. Falcon: Well, I appreciate the member's passion. It's unfortunate they didn't show that same passion during the fast ferries fiasco.

You know, when I hear these questions, I'm left asking this question, which I hate to have to ask: have the members actually read the Auditor General's re- port? Have the members taken the time to read the reports that flowed out of the fast ferries? They were very clear, and they all had a common theme. The common theme was: you must make sure that this cor- poration is independent from political interference. Now, if the member wants to FOI safety records… Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Hon. K. Falcon: …they have the ability to…. Mr. Speaker: Minister. Members, we want to hear the answer.

Minister, continue. Hon. K. Falcon: You know, it's no different than the airlines. It's no different than railways. They're over- seen and regulated by Tr ansport Canada and the Transportation Safety Board. You can access that through the federal freedom-of-information act if you have any concerns, but I will tell you this. Today I can stand before this House and say there's a heck of a lot more accountability with B.C. Ferries than there ever was when it was a Crown corporation under that…. Interjection. Hon. K. Falcon: Sorry, the member opposite is get- ting excited there. Mr.

Speaker: Member, would you withdraw that. Hon. K. Falcon: Let's just remember…. Mr. Speaker: Minister. H. Lali: Withdraw.

3300 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES M ONDAY, MARCH 27, 2006 Mr. Speaker: Continue, minister. Hon. K. Falcon: Let's just remember that the NDP opposition in government had a different form of ac- countability. When the board of B.C. Ferries questioned the lack of business plan on the fast ferries fiasco, they fired the board, put in a new board headed by Jack Munro, went down that road, and it was a disaster. [End of question period.] Orders of the Day Hon. M. de Jong: I call Committee of Supply.

For the information of members, in Committee A we'll be discussing the estimates for the Ministry of Education, and in this chamber, continued debate on the Ministry of Employment and Income Assistance. [1515] Committee of Supply ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF EMPLOYMENT AND INCOME ASSISTANCE (continued) The House in Committee of Supply (Section B); S. Hammell in the chair. The committee met at 3:17 p.m. On Vote 25: ministry operations, $1,369,415,000 (continued). C. Trevena: Welcome back, minister. I'd like to carry on where we left off at the end of last week on Thursday evening, talking about access to assistance.

I know that the ministry made a big push this spring to get people on to direct debit. In fact, the push wraps up in a couple of days, as I understand. I don't want to talk about the rationale for this, because I've heard from some people it's good and from some peo- ple it's bad. I just wanted to know a bit more about the promotion itself. How much did the promotion cost? Hon. C. Richmond: The ministry has allocated about $300,000 for this initiative. The actual cost will be determined based on the number of clients who sign up.

I think I should add that this, although it may not a l w a y s t a k e t h e f o r m o f a n a c t i v e p r o m o t i o n , w i l l b e something we'll be encouraging our clients to do on an ongoing basis. C. Trevena: Part of the promotion was the provi- sion of socks, T-shirts or a travel mug and a canvas bag. Is that $300,000 the cost of those items? Hon. C. Richmond: Yeah, pretty much. That's the cost of providing the incentives for people.

I should a d d , t o o , t h a t a l t h o u g h s o m e f u n h a s b e e n m a d e o f offering socks, when we consulted with the advocacy groups and the people who minister to a lot of these people on a daily basis, it was the number-one item that came to mind — that they could always use some socks. So the deputy and the people in the ministry put together a package of five pairs of socks. For most peo- ple, they were greatly appreciated. To date, I should add, the clients' responses have been very positive.

In fact, I just want to share a couple of recent and unsolicited comments made by our front- line staff. [1520] One staff member indicated: I have placed several calls this morning to let folks know that their incentive was waiting for them at the office, if they'd like to come down and pick it up. Five clients have been in, and of those that I called, every one of them was very grateful, including a woman who was also nearly in tears. She came back up to the counter again to say a heartfelt thank you and wanted to mention as well that it is her birthday tomorrow and how she thought it was such a wonderful gift.

Another shared that they felt com- pelled to give feedback about the sock and T-shirt incen- tive. I have watched today a number of clients receiving this gift and note their responses are very positive — ab- solutely no negative reactions, and a few, particularly older single men, looked as though they might cry. Sometimes when we are fortunate, we forget the positive impact just a small initiative like this makes those in need feel. C. Trevena: Obviously, the promotion hasn't fin- ished yet. I just wanted to know if you had figures on how many socks, mugs, T-shirts and so on have been actually distributed. Hon.

C. Richmond: We don't have any stats for you yet, but this Wednesday is cheque-issue day. About a week or ten days after that, we should know the results up to date. As soon as th ey're known, we'll let every- body know. C. Trevena: I look forward to that. A couple more questions about this. I know that there…. Well, as you know, I was in the Kamloops phone centre, and they had some of the promotional materials there in the phone centre ready to hand out for when people did apply for direct debit. It did seem at that stage there were large volumes of mugs and socks still available.

This was about ten days ago, so I would be very interested to find out. I would like to know…. You said it's about $300,000. So does that mean that if you don't distribute all the mugs and socks, you get the money back? Is it a sale or re- turn type of setup? Hon. C. Richmond: We put enough into each office to accommodate the number of people who are not on direct deposit. To repeat what I said earlier, there is no finite cut-off date for this program. We are going to continue to encourage people to take up the idea of electronic deposit.

MONDAY, MARCH 27, 2006 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 3301 Just to repeat for those who have just tuned in: we have about 70 percent of our clients now on direct deposit. We would like to see that number increase significantly, just to allow the people who are most vulnerable to retain more of their income assistance. Too many of them now fall prey to those who are predators and prey on them — the drug pushers, etc., and unscrupulous landlords — and we want to do everything possible to keep money out of the hands of those people and leave it in the hands of our cli- ents.

Direct deposit, we feel, is one of the best ways of doing that. Another way is that we're working with the team in Vancouver, including the police, to make sure that people living in these SROs in the downtown east side are actually living in those pl aces and that their cheque is going to provide shelter, rather than going to some unscrupulous person who takes the money, gives them a few dollars' worth of drugs for it, and then they don't have a place to live. C.

Trevena: I'll be picking up on accommodation i s s u e s a s w e g o t h r o u g h , b u t I w o u l d l i k e t o c o n t i n u e on this promotion — not direct deposit, but the promo- tion. You state in official.… When it was announced, it was going to be just until March 29. That's why I was surprised you were going to carry out handing out the goodies after that. [1525] I noticed that in the information that went to staff about this, the materials were going to be shipped to ministry offices, to government agents and also to trusted third parties. What would a trusted third party be in this scenario? Hon. C.

Richmond: We did send some materials to government agents. The trusted third parties are peo- ple who work with these people and who do adminis- ter their cheques. I don't have a list of names for you right at hand, but I can probably dig that out for you. But they're people who we ha ve contracts with who do administer cheques for people. There are lots of other trusted third parties. The Salvation Army comes to mind as one. But I also don't think th e member should get hung up on the fact that we were going to run the program till the end of March. We still have supplies left.

We did put a date in there to urge people to get in before the end of the year or to get in as quickly as possible and get their funds transferred. As long as we have supplies of these items, we'll continue pushing the program. C. Trevena: I hope I'm not belabouring this, but these supplies — the socks and the T-shirts and the travel mugs — are there for people who sign up for direct deposit. They are there as a benefit directly for making that move from getting your cheque monthly to getting your cheque monthly transferred to your bank account.

So I wonder why the Salvation Army would have these supplies, because they don't issue cheques, nor do they sign people up for government benefits. Hon. C. Richmond: I assume the member is refer- ring to trusted third parties. We have one in Clearwater in the North Thompson. The Salvation Army will issue cheques on our behalf in a community in which they're located, and I would certainly look on them as a trusted third party. I don't know if that answers the question, as I understand it. [1530] C.

Trevena: How much does it cost to issue and distribute the cheques in the regular way, and how much did it cost to do it by electronic transfer? Hon. C. Richmond: We don't have an exact cost of what it costs to administer each cheque, but the elec- tronic deposit is a fraction of what it would cost to ad- minister it personally — print a cheque and hand it out — which we do in so many cases now. The other thing i s t h a t i t ' s d o n e b y t h e p r o v in c i a l t r e a s u r y . L i k e I s a y , it's a fraction of the cost, but it's far more secure.

We recently came across a scam being operated in Burnaby where people are usin g identity tools to print up cards. Let me back up a little bit. They find out who is getting cheques in the mail. The cheques were being stolen out of the mailboxes before the recipient could get to them. These people had the apparatus for mak- ing identity cards. They would then make a card that fit that particular cheque and go down and cash the cheque. So we want to put a stop to that, and one way to do that is with electronic transfer of funds. C.

Trevena: I'm very surprised you don't actually have the cost of how much it costs to issue cheques manually or how much the cost is for direct deposit, to do it electronically. I would like those figures, if those can be found. Hon. C. Richmond: To be quite honest, we don't have a number to issue each cheque manually. We simply don't have that number. But we know that it's just a fraction of the cost of having the provincial treas- ury issue the cheques.

There is just no comparison, and it eliminates a lot of the possibility of theft, and it takes away from the workload of the person that has to sit there at that front counter on cheque-issue day. I've watched them file through the cheques to pick out a cheque and hand it to somebody. Once the cheque is handed to that person, then you have no idea where it's going to end up. We know where a lot of it's going to end up, but it's much more secure if we can get it into a bank account fo r them. We will give them an ID. A lot of people don't have identification.

We'll make sure that they have identification, and then they can go to an automatic teller machine and take out enough cash to see them through the day or the next few days. But it does take it out of their hands and away from a lot of these pr edators who prey on them every month.

3302 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES M ONDAY, MARCH 27, 2006 C. Trevena: You know that it's going to save money, but you don't know how much money it's go- ing to save. Will the ministry have those savings to use, or will they be going into general revenues — however much this vague saving is? Hon. C. Richmond: Any money that we can save through efficiencies will go back into serving our cli- ents. C. Trevena: What will you be spending this money on? Would it, perhaps, be — as we've discussed before — possibly looking at an increase in rates? Hon. C.

Richmond: To be absolutely technical, that question pertains to future government policy and is therefore out of order. Bu t who would know at this time precisely what you're going to spend this money on? We will spend it where it's needed. [1535] C.

Trevena: Minister, we are discussing the budget here, and this was a promotion that came under the 2005-2006 budget, at which point there must have been someone in the department looking at how much the promotion was going to cost, what the cost benefits were going to be — not the psychological or any other benefits, but the cost benefits to the ministry — project- ing how many people are going to go on direct debit and looking at how much money that would then free up for use in other programs. I don't think we're talking about future policy.

I think we're talking about, literally, money that was saved in this process that can be used for, as you say, o t h e r s e r v i c e s . I j u s t w a n t e d t o k n o w w h a t u s e y o u have budgeted that money for. The Chair: Excuse me, minister. Just a second, please. Member, there is a subtle difference between di- rectly addressing the minister and going through the Chair. So would you please kindly direct your ques- tions through the Chair. Hon. C. Richmond: The savings by going through there are a secondary benefit to this program.

I think we lose the focus, or people over there or others seem to lose the focus of this program and what it's for. It's for the protection of our clients — the most vulnerable of our clients. That was the impetus behind this pro- gram. It was not to save money. Yes, we will save some money. It will not be a large amount, and I can't tell you right now exactly what we will use it for, but we'll use it for the good of our cli- ents. C. Trevena: Thank you, Madam Chair. I apologize for not using the right approach.

So if I might ask the minister: on the figures that are there in the service plan that we have, the figures of the ministry…. In these figures we have executive and support service. The budg et has shrunk from $168.6 million down to $21.4 million. I wondered why this change has been made. Hon. C. Richmond: I will see if I can get this straight; it gets quite technical. The salary and benefits, travel, professional ser- vices, office and business expenses, information sys- tems, amortization and buil ding occupancy charges were allocated to fully reflect the cost of providing ser- vice by the core business area.

This increases account- ability for results by more accurately and completely reporting costs by core business area. The change provides for be tter budget transparency and accountability and brings the ministry in line with the standard approach of other ministries. So the ser- v i c e p l a n t h i s y e a r r e f l e c t s t h e n e w w a y w e h a v e r e - stated the executive and support services budget. [1540] The next question would be: why did the executive and support services budget increase?

It increased by $400,000 due to an increase in the employee benefits rate from 24 percent to 25.6 percent, and increases in the CAS, BCBC and legal fees allocation. C. Trevena: Basically, the money's just been redis- tributed into different program areas. Is that what we're saying? Hon. C. Richmond: That's correct. C. Trevena: This, then, means that we have a lump sum going to different programs, but no breakdown for how much is being spent on programming and how much is being paid in tran sport, salaries and so on, which we used to be able to see.

Since that information isn't in the service plan, I wondered whether the minis- ter would be able to tell me how much was spent on executive and support services last year and how much is going to be spent in the subsequent three years. Hon. C. Richmond: I've got two pages of numbers here on ministry operations — employment programs, temporary assistance, disa bility and supplementary assistance, employment and assistance tribunal appeal, executive and support services, minister's office, corpo- rate services — and it's all here in the supplement to the estimates, fiscal year ending March 31, 2007. C.

Trevena: To the minister: I thank him for that. I'll double-check those figures, have a look at them and, if I have any further queries, come back to him on that. Moving on to one of the areas where obviously it is one of the prime areas of concern for the ministry, I wanted to talk a bit about the job programs. I know that the ministry is changing its approach on employ- ment programs. But first, one of the figure questions. I see in the figures the money going into employment programs remains static from 2006 right through to 2009 at $93 million. I wondered why it's just a static figure there.

MONDAY, MARCH 27, 2006 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 3303 Hon. C. Richmond: A s n e a r l y a s I c a n g r a s p t h e question, it's: why has the employment program budget remained static, or is it going to remain static for the next three years? I guess the best way I can answer is that the expected- to-work caseload has dropped by over 70,000 cases, and the persons-with-disabilities caseload has in- creased by over 16,000 case s since June 2001, so the m a k e u p o f o u r c a s e l o a d i s q u i t e d i f f e r e n t t h a n i t w a s four years ago.

Recognizing the shift in caseload com- position, the ministry has refocused the employment programs. Base funding for employment programs for the employables has been slightly reduced to reflect the decreased caseload. In 2005-2006 employment pro- grams received a one-time lift to restructure the pro- grams. [1545] A new employment program, the B.C. employment program, which better focuses on the needs of our smaller employable caseload, will begin in '06-07. Funding for employment programs for persons with disabilities has increased by $1.2 million to $20.5 mil- lion.

Funding for the community assistance program, focusing on individuals with multiple barriers, is being sustained at $7.5 million. I guess the reason that we have shifted, as I said, is because our client makeup caseload has changed dra- matically. But to answer why it's static over the next three years, I imagine it's because we project that the numbers now are not likely to change very much over the next three years. C.

Trevena: I'd like to talk a little bit about numbers and access to the system for a while, but if I can just focus on the various job programs and the changes that are coming in the pipe over the coming months. I know that with the present job training pro- grams…. I've been talking to a number of people about this, and there is a concern that people are being di- rected to jobs and job training programs that really aren't suitable for them, th at are there….

They get the sense that they're just bein g pushed through to reduce caseload numbers, that the job training isn't suitable, that the jobs at the end aren't suitable. If I can just give you some examples. There are some who have been pushed towards the private col- leges rather than public co lleges, some who then have to get a student loan, even though they're on income assistance. The screening pr ocess for those who are going through this process really isn't rigorous enough.

There are people who just haven't got the life skills, haven't got the ability to take on some of these respon- sibilities — that they are being pushed through by these job training programs. So I wanted to know whether this is something that is going to be addressed in the reshaping of the job training programs. Hon. C. Richmond: An awful lot of things were taken into consideration when we set about to revamp t h e B . C . e m p l o y m e n t p r o g r am . T h i s w a s d o n e i n c o n - sultation with our service providers and our staff — many hours of consultative meetings.

We listened to what they had to say, and they told us that some of the programs that were in effect — and maybe those are the programs that the member is speaking of — were just not suitable for people. So with the new B.C. em- ployment program, which goes into effect about July 1…. In fact, the request for proposals is out now. It closes this Wednesday.

So in the next month, month and a half — April, May — we'll be evaluating those proposals and awarding contracts to our service pro- viders. [1550] One of the things that is in the new B.C. employment program is the ability to tailor a program more to the individual's needs than in the past. We are working with a different caseload. We're working with people who are m or e d i f f i c u lt t o p l a c e i n e m pl o y m en t . I n f a ct , t o p u t i t another way, most of the easy ones are gone, and we're down to more….

Every person now requires more indi- vidual attention and will require different types of pro- grams than we had in the past. This is why the change. The information for the redesign, as I have said, was done in consultation with the stakeholders and staff, best practices from other jurisdictions, a compre- hensive evaluation of the job placement and Training for Jobs programs — those two programs will now be rolled into one; instead of two different streams, there will be one — and by really examining the ministry data and caseload forecast.

I'm sure that all concerned will find that the new B.C. employment program will be much better suited to tailoring courses for individu- als than has been the case in the past. C. Trevena: You mentioned that devising these new programs was done in consultation with other jurisdictions. Which other jurisdictions did you talk to? Hon. C. Richmond: The information you re- quested, I am told, was liste d in the RFP, the request for proposal, but we don't happen to have it with us. I'd be happy to get it for you and bring it back or mail it to you or whatever. C.

Trevena: I w o u l d v e r y m u c h l i k e t h a t i n f o r m a - tion to see what other provinces are doing and how the ministry has been influenced by this. You also say that you're going to be doing a com- prehensive evaluation of the programs that are wrap- ping up at this moment. If I might ask: who will be carrying out this evaluation, and what will you be looking at? Hon. C. Richmond: Y e s , a n e v a l u a t i o n o f t h e j o b placement program and training for jobs program was conducted by the Victoria Consulting Network — Peter Adams — and was submitted to the ministry in August of 2005.

The evaluation was commissioned in Septem- ber 2002 by the ministry to determine if the JP and TFJ programs moved clients into sustainable employment quicker than if they had not participated and to pro-

3304 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES M ONDAY, MARCH 27, 2006 vide advice on developing future employment pro- grams. The evaluation reported a number of successes, including the fact that the two programs assisted, at that time, over 30,000 clients to become independent from income assistance. Since the report was com- pleted, this number has in creased to over 45,000. The evaluation also showed that these programs benefited clients ready to work and those who required short- term skills training.

The evaluation suggested a few areas for improve- ment, particularly in the areas of program administra- tion and the need for more flexible client service deliv- ery, which I just mentioned. The ministry is adopting a number of improvements in the area of service delivery and reduction of the administrative workload, also in order to more effectively meet the client's needs in a caseload that has shifted over the past several years. The ministry is moving to services delivered on an individualized basis.

The ministry is developing its newest employment program, the B.C. employment program, which will be im plemented in July 2006. Most of the evaluation's recommendations have been incorporated into the BCEP program design. [1555] Besides the recommendations from the evaluation, the ministry has used a variety of other sources to guide the development of the B.C. employment pro- gram. This includes consultation with stakeholders and ministry staff, best practices from other jurisdictions and ministry data and caseload forecasts. C. Trevena: This was a report that was done some time ago. I remember when it came out.

It was delayed in its publication for some time. I wondered if there was going to be a sort of end-of- program wrap-up — let's look at where we went right, where we went wrong — or whether you feel that that report, which was done some time ago, is enough to answer the many question s about these employment programs. Hon. C. Richmond: We've already done that. All that I just outlined was done before we issued the request for proposal for the new B.C. employment program. C. Trevena: I thank the minister for that clarification.

B e f o r e I c a r r y o n w i t h s p e c i f i c j o b t r a i n i n g p r o - grams and how they're going to be developed over the coming months, I have a question. The minister has been talking about caseload forecasts as one of the ways of developing the programs. I wondered how the ministry assesses cases, how it takes in figures that are people who are coming to the ministry and asking for assistance, how it does this sort of forecasting and whether the ministry is actu ally keeping a record of everybody who comes to the ministry and is looking for assistance. Hon. C.

Richmond: The forecast model generates a baseline forecast of the B.C. employment and assistance caseload for up to five fiscal years into the future. The model generates the monthly caseload forecast by pre- dicting how the caseload will change from the previous month. The five components analyzed are new out-of- province starting cases; new in-province starting cases; returning cases; stopping cases; and transferring cases — cases moving within the BCEA caseload.

The mod- ule relies on a series of ordinary least squares — OLS; that's a new one on me — regression models to predict how each of the five components will change over time. The current forecast model consists of hundreds of separate regressions, repres e n t i n g f o u r p r o g r a m s a n d five family types, plus CIHR — child in the home of a relative — single men and single women. The forecast model is updated every month. The full budget caseload forecast is done as late as possible in order to obtain the most precision.

The model predicts that a 1-percent change in the unemployment rate will result in an approximate caseload change of 1,200 cases. [1600] C. Trevena: The statistic…. I think this is something that we talked about in our last estimates debate, and I j u s t w a n t e d t o f i n d o u t i f t h i n g s h a v e c h a n g e d , I g u e s s .

Whether the ministry is predicting its caseload by looking at everybody who is coming to the ministry — everyone who comes and picks up that 1-800 number and starts a request or people who come to the door, if they can come to the door, or who complete the Internet access, the peo- ple who are making that contact with the ministry…. I wondered if this is part of the caseload prediction. Hon. C. Richmond: We have preapplications, which give us a sense of what's coming. We can see how the trend goes in preapplications, but the five components I mentioned are what we use, basically, to base our forecasting on.

Those are out-of-province; new in-province starting cases; returning cases; stopping cases; and transferring cases — cases moving within the BCEA caseload. I should add that there are some people who get as far as the preapplication process, and that's as far as we ever see them. They either find a job, or they move or something, but we don't se e them show up on our caseload. C.

Trevena: I ' l l c o m e b a c k t o w h a t h a p p e n s t o t h e "or something." I wanted to pick up with the minister something that he said in his answer to the previous question about the drop in fi gures in relativity to the unemployment rate. I'm sure the minister is well aware of the report that was published today about people's access to assistance. In that , the regression they have shows that if unemployment was one of the sole predi- cators for getting assistance, the number of people on assistance would be 50 percent higher than it is at the moment. I wondered how the minister squares this.

It's clearly not just being done through employment.

MONDAY, MARCH 27, 2006 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 3305 Hon. C. Richmond: I think what the member is after is an economic analysis of how we use unem- p l o y m e n t r a t e s , e t c . W e h a v e d o n e s u c h a t h i n g a s a response to the report that came out today — which was no surprise, by the way. It's the same report that comes out every year about this time, and it contained almost the same information as their last report. The report claims that the unemployment rate is the strongest predictor of the caseload.

This information is used to argue that half of the caseload declined as a result of policy and not th e economy. This is totally incorrect. The employment rate is a very weak predic- tor of the caseload, for many reasons. This is the case not just in B.C. but across Canada. What is important is the change in employment and the total economic environment — sustained growth. Unemployment rates go up and down fre- quently, even when the economy is improving. In 2002, for example, the unemployment rate went up, yet the number of employed rose by 44,000.

In that year B.C. experienced a very large increase in the participation rate — 64 percent to 65.1 percent. Many people on in- come assistance left for employment, while many more started to look for work. [1605] It is the two- or three-year trend in employment that matters, not the individual unemployment rate. People will leave the caseload for employment or not need assistance if they feel optimistic about the economy. Also, it is not the overall employment rate that is important to inco me assistance clients but employment in the selected sectors — namely, sales and services.

Employment in these sectors has been strong. This is pertaining to this report that came out to- day. Their model is very poor. The average error rate is nearly 10 percent. They pr edicted increases in the caseload in three of the six months — half the time — when in fact the caseload never increased. C. Trevena: I'm not going to get into the games of defending or not defending a report that we had no involvement in writing.

However, I think that it does actually have some very important information, and that is about the lack of information there and the fact that many people — and many people who I have met in going around the province — aren't getting assistance because of vari ous regulations under the 2002 act. The minister says the unemployment correlation is totally incorrect, but if people aren't coming to the sys- tem because they are being kept off the system, it is, again, an Alice-in-Wonderland scenario of: how are we tracking people, and how can we justify this?

In the ministry's service pl an it says, on the job pro- grams and employment plans, that research indicates that individualized employment plans, detailing spe- cific job search activities and commitments as a condi- tion of continued assistance benefit families and indi- viduals over the long term. I would like to ask the min- ister: what research shows this? [1610] Hon. C. Richmond: I think I've got the gist of the member's question, but I'm not sure. I want to make it clear, though, that we're talking about those who are expected to work.

I know there's a lot of confusion when a report, as mentioned, comes out for the Centre for Policy Alternatives, because a lot of people have difficulty separating the different categories of clients we have. These are those people th at are expected to work. I'll read from the paragraph that I believe the member was quoting from: This group of clients includes individuals who are capa- ble of employment, have met eligibility criteria such as a three-week work search and have ongoing employment- related obligations.

Expected-to-work clients have to maintain individualized employment plans detailing specific job search activities commitments as a condition of continued assistance. Research indicates that th is approach benefits fami- lies and individuals over the long term by breaking the intergenerational cycle of welfare dependency and end- ing the cycle-on, cycle-off pattern that many clients have experienced. Expected-to-work clients compromise 17 percent of the ministry's caseload.

But since the report from the Centre for Policy Alter- natives has been mentioned, just let me add that this centre has had a longstanding history of disagreeing with employment-based programs. They just do not happen to believe in them. That's no surprise, because the same thing is in every report that they do every year. We happen to believe that employment-based pro- grams for those expected to work and those able to work are the best thing that we can do for people to break that cycle of entitlement and dependence to one of employment and self-reliance.

One of the most diffi- cult things we had to do as a government was change that culture of entitlement to one of independence. If we don't use this philosophy in dealing with those who are able to work, we will never break this cycle of welfare dependence. We are now, in this prov- ince, into four generations of welfare families. We're into the fourth generation, in some cases, of welfare dependence, and the only way we're going to break t h a t c y c l e i s b y t h e p r o g r a m s w e h a v e p u t i n p l a c e . They've been very successf ul.

We've put some 46,000 people off the welfare rolls and back into employment. We're talking, again, just about those who are capa- ble of working and those wh o should be working. It has always been and will remain a strong focus of this government, even though I know there are those who are opposed to income-based programs. There are those who would have us return to the good old days of the mid-90s, when we had 375,000 people on welfare in this province, and that's just unac- ceptable.

People who are able to work and are expected to work do not have a choice of saying: "I'd rather stay on welfare." They have a choice of getting into one of our job programs. They've been very successful, and that's the choice we're trying to give them. Only 40 percent of children from income-assisted families graduate from high school. Equally alarming is

3306 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES M ONDAY, MARCH 27, 2006 the fact that children who grow up on welfare are sta- tistically more likely to depend on welfare in their adult lives and receive six times the amount of assis- tance than a person raised by working parents. We still feel that not only is it the best thing we can do for the parents — get them back into employment and inde- pendence — but it's the best thing we can do for their children — make sure that their parents have a steady source of income. [1615] C.

Trevena: I think that we're, in many ways, going t o b e r e p e a t i n g s o m e o f o u r d e b a t e f r o m l a s t w e e k when there was the question of the culture of entitle- ment or not. At the time, I raised with the minister that access to welfare is an entitlement. It is a right in a civi- lized society that if somebody is in need, they have the right to assistance. They don't have the right to have to be looking for work. It is a right. It is an entitlement. The minister didn't answer my question, I believe. I was asking what research his own service plan based this comment on.

I was making no reference to the re- port that was published today. I was referring to his own service plan. Hon. C. Richmond: The research I talked about was in-house research based on our own findings. I do want to respond. Income assistance is a right in this province. There's no ques tion about that. Again, to counter some of the statements made by the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives, we don't turn people away from this ministry. If someone comes who is in a crisis situation…. If they do n't have food or they don't have shelter, we provide it for them. That's what we're there for.

Then we determine what category this person falls under. Are they a person with disabilities? Are they a person with multiple barriers to employment? Or are they just temporarily out of work? They're expected to work. They're able to work . Then we can determine exactly what assistance they need. If someone's expected to work and that's the cate- gory we're talking about, we will provide them with a crisis grant if that is the re quirement. If they don't have any food, don't have any shelter….

But they will still be expected to go out and continue with their work search for three weeks, and they will either find a job or they will be put into one of our employment programs. We don't deny people. We just assist them. We'd rather give them a hand up than a handout, if that is what is required. There are innumerable statistics to prove our point. Studies of employment-focused wel- fare programs compared to human capital develop- ment programs show that employment programs lead to greater wage growth, higher incomes and reduced future spells on income assistance. C.

Trevena: I don't want to be diverted too long from the issue of job programs, and I want to come back to some of these other issues. However, if I might ask the minister, on the spec ifics of the programs that have bee

Document details

Collection	British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	H0327pm-04
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	H0327pm 04
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	013541e3c48965a79d194ced4f7808c86d853ba8

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