VOL. l PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF l\SSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. THURSDAY, MAY 13, 1982 NO. 4

May 13, 1982 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape 153 EC - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! MR, LUSH: MR. SPEAKER: Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: ORAL QUESTIONS Mr. Speaker. The hon. the member for Mr. Speaker, yesterday at the end of the Question Period I was questioning the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) re the fish plant at Charleston. And I had begun my question by reminding the minister that in a P.C. rally during tt1e election that he had told ti1e people attending that rally that the fish plant at Charleston would be re-opening.

Yesterday I asked would the minister give a statement re the status of the fish plant at Charleston and I gathered that he was not as forthright in saying whether or not it was going to open then as he was on the night of that rally in the district of Terra Nova. Could the minister comment on th~1t, jusl what is the status of the fish plant at Charleston, or whether he knows at this moment? MR. SPEAKER: Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: The han. the Minister of ~rr.

Speaker, first of all may I say it is very pleasing to see since this new session of the House of Assembly so many questions on fisheries, because maybe they have learned the lesson the hard way. The last session there was hardly a question on fisheries. MR. WOOPROW: That i ·s :tight. MR. MORGAN: Now' ·that they have learned the hard way by losing fishing districts to us in the recent election, they are go~ng to try a different tactic but I appreciate the questions anyway, Mr. Speaker. 345

May 13, 1982 Tape 153 EC - 2 MR. MORGAN: On the Charleston plant, I said during the election 1and in fact before the election, and I have said since the election and I say now that the Charleston plant is part of a proposal put forward by the Nickerson firm, 346

May 13, 1982 Tape No. 154 MJ - l MR. J. MORGAN : which owns outright that plant, a fairly modern plant that was acquired by Nickersons from the company Arctic Fisheries a few vears ago and they carried out an expansion after they purchased it from Arctic Fisheries. In fact, Mr. Speaker, I mentioned yesterday I was meeting with the Nickerson firm today.

I just came from a two or two and a half or three hour session with the Nickerson officials, in from Nova Scotia,and we are in the process of finalizing the proposul they put forward some months ago regarding a number of their fish plants in Newfoundland, the resource short inshore plants along the Northeast Coast owned by that company.

It involv es a proposal whicp, as I say, involves the Newfoundland <JOVernmcnt with a request for financial assistance.~~0 1ri1l T can say today, is new structuring of their operations ;o it will be strictly a Newfoundland operation separa·te from their operations in Nova Scotia. '!'he meeting today just concluded, There are still meetings ongoing this afternoon involving the officials of the Department of Fisheries, the Deputy Minister (Mr. G.

Slade) in particular, but I am hoping to be in a position by tommorrow afternoon, at the latest, to indicate a firm date when that plant in Charlestown in Bonavista Bay, in fact in the very historic district of Bonavista South, will be reopening,in other words giving a firm dater and also giving further information with regards to the reopening of a number of others connected with the Nickerson operation. MR. T. LUSH: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. A supplementary the hon. the Mr. Speaker, I still find that the minister's fudging a little.

He is nearly beinq as forthriqht as he was auring the rally in Terra Nova district when he said that the fi.sh plant was going to open. Well, the minister is 347

May .L3, 1982 Tape No . 154 MJ - ., MR . r. LUSH : not indicating that today . This is a very important issue , as th e minister recognizes it to be . It employs a larqC' nnmber of people from t:hree districts, the 'l'erra Nova district, Trinity South and Bonavista South , it employs a lot of people .

And well the minister knew that the night that he said that the fish plant was going to open . tvell,I am asking the minister toaay is there any possibility, one, that that fish plant will not open or does he have information that the fish plant will open, that is just a matter of meeting tommorrow and giving the date? \-lhat is the actual status? What doe s the minister know at this point in time about the fish plant at Charlestown? Will it open or will it not open? MR . SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon . the Minister of Fisheries . MR . J . MORGAN : Hr .

Speaker , maybe the rea son why I am not so - how will I say it? - enthusiastic about the annoucement on the Charlestown plant "' I .J J4u

May 13, 1982 Tape No. 155 so - l MR. MORGAN : today in the House as I was the night at the rally is as I recall the hall was packed with about 500 people - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MORGAN: - and they were very, very supportive of our Party and our Party's pol~cies. In fact, I recall the vote increased substantially in that aren of Lethbridge and Bloomfield and Bunyan's Cove and canninqs Cover and Musgravetown and Winter Brook and Jamestown and these places. SOME HON. MEMBERS: r'; J oh! MR. MORGAN: But, Mr.

Speaker, what I said then is the same thing I said since the election and before the election; this government will leave no stone unturned in getting open any of the fish plants around this Province which we believe and the companies connected with the plants believe can be viable in the future. I said that yesterday and I maintain the position now.

We will vmrk with every company with regards to getting the.ir operations open and getting the buying and prot:essinq of r ish onqo i nq l hi~; Summer providing, of course as I indicated as w.ell to the House yesterday, that they meet certain criteria and are willing to comply with the co~ditions we set down. I do not know what the hon. gentleman wants more than I just told him. I said by tomorrow afternoon I will be able to announce a fir~ date when that plant will be re-opened. In other words, ~n the next twenty~four hours or so I will be making an announcement indicating when the plant will be re-opened.

And I am sure that will be good news to the people of Bonavista South in particular. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. LUSH: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. 348

May 13 , 1982 Tape No . 155 so - 2 MR . SPEAKER (Ru sse ll) : Supplementary, the hon . membe: for Terra Nova . MR . LUSH: I agree with the minister there~ there was a large number of people at that rally that night, Mr . Speaker, a large number . A lot of them told me they went to listen to Cory and Trina as opposed to listening to the minister. SOME HON. ~1EMBERS : Hear, hear! MR . LUSH : But anyway, Hr .

Speaker, the minist~r is still fudqinq, not beinq nearly as forthright as I found out ~1-Je next day when I went around visiting when the people \vere all excited and telling me that Jim Morgan was going to open the fish plant at Charleston . The final question to the minister; Can L~e minister indicate today whether the fish plant is going to be operating at full capacity in the way that it has been ever the past c;:ouple of years or ,.,hether it is going to be in a reduced capacity? Can the minister indicate that today? MR . SPEAKER : The hon . Minister of Fisheries . lt\R . .MOHGI\N ----- ~tr .

Speaker, the hon . gentleman is ohvinusly a very Doubtinq Thomas because I recall saying before the election and during the electio~ that all of the seven plants that went into bankruptcy or into receivership - and L~e company wanted to move out of the Province -1wned by Newfoundland Quick Freeze were going to open . I then heard ::omments come from-not the saltle hon. gentleman but from lhc same party saying , 'Oh . that was all nonsense, these plants would not be re -opened • . \,.ell they are all re -opened now and are all go~ ng to operate now . 35 0

•J May 13, 1982 Tape No. 156 NM - 1 SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear~ MR. MORGAN: I also heard co~~ents along the same lines about other plants, the plants that are now owned by the Lake Group Company. These plants were not going to re-open again. The Burgeo Seafoods Plant was never going to be sold, never re-open again under private enterprise, the government would always have to subsidize the operations down there- MR. NEARY: Give-aways. MR. MORGAN: - andthese kinds of pessimistic viewpoints from the Opposition. It is time that you had some faith in what your provincial government is doinq for this Province. MR.

HODDER: MR. SPEAKER (~ussell) SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. HODDER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. Order, please~ Order, please: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker, for the past three days we have been listening to the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) answering questions. Mr, Speaker, the questions have been short and to the point. The answers, Mr. Speaker, have been rambling.

Beauchesne, page 131 says, "Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, should deal with the matter raised, and should not provoke debate." Now the question asked to the Minister of Fisheries was a specific question on the Charleston fish plant, which is a very serious matter, Mr. Speaker - MR. NEARY: Yes or no. MR. HODDER: - to the people of the district of Terra Nova and the people of Charleston. But the minister, and other ministers on that side of the House, continually rise and then have many speeches and provoke debate and get on to every other type of topic. Mr.

Speaker, we have half an hour 3 5 ·1

May 13, 1982 Tape No. 156 NM - 2 MR. HODDER: for Question Period and if we have to ruin our own Question Period with points of order we do not care if we can get the ministers on the other side to please use their God-given intelligence,if they have any, to try and frame an answer in as short a time as possible. MR · PECICFORD: To that point of order. MR. NEARY: PREMIER PECKFORD: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) PREMIER PECKFORD: A simple yes or no . To that point of order. The hon. Premier. Mr. Speaker, you know I find it really odd, Asi listened to the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.

Morgan) giving the answers to very important questions from the Opposition you could almost hear a pin drop when the Minister of Fisheries was speaking. Everybody was hanging on every word he was saying, were eager to find out the answer to the question. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear~ PREMIER PECKFORD: The fantastic job that the Minister of Fisheries was doing on answering questions in this House. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear~ PREMIER PECKFORD: A fantastic job. And I am absolutely asto~nded, appalled, as one member of this House,to hear the Opposition House Leader (Mr.

Hodder) get up and criticize the giving of information by the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) about that resource. The member who asked the question was there hanging on every word, hanging on every comma that the Minister of Fisheries was making. And I submit to the bon. member he should know better and sit in his seat and listen to the golden words coming out of the mouth of the Minister of Fisheries. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear~ 'J •• I ~:JL

May 13, 1982 Tape No . 156 N:-1 - 3 ~ MR . NEARY : Mr . Speaker . MR . SPE~~ER (Russe~) : The hon. Leader of the Opposition . MR . NEARY: To that point of orde~, Mr . Speaker . I did not intend ~o comment on the oo int of order at all - SOME BON . ME."l.BERS : Oh , oh! · ~ffi . SPEAKER: Order , please! MR . NEARY: - until the Premier oot in~o the discussion. Mr . Speaker, Beauchesne stntc~ that questions,apa =t from a short

preamble, should be short and the answers should be short. 7he question th~t was put to the !-tinister of r~ sher ies (;ir . ~-!erg an) - PREMIER PECKFORD: ~-;h at soction? \·Jha:: citation? Get it from your Eouse Leader. 353

May 13, 1982 Tape No. 157 EL - 1 MR. HODDER: Beauchesne, page 131. MR. NEARY: Page 131, do~:m at the bottom of the page. "Answers to questions should be as brief as pass- ible, should deal with the matter raised, and should not provoke debate." The answer given by the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) was rather .long-winded, Mr. Speaker, and we saw a repetition today of what happened yesterday in this hon. House. My colleague, the member for Terra Nova (I-l.r. Lush) asked a question that only demands a simple yes or no answer and that is all, Mr. Speaker.

The hon. gentleman was being too long-winded,as he usually is in this House,saying nothing and I think he was com- pletely out of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! It is true that Beauchesne does say that members when asking ques 'tions should make their ques- tion as brief as possible and hon. ministers when answer- ing should be as brief as possible and I would request that hon. members on both sides adhere to that. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! HR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, the answer to the question is yes, the fish plant at Charleston will be re- opened.

It will be re-opened with provincial government assistance only because the federal government turned down requests for assistance. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! l<lR . NEAR Y: Mr. Speaker. M R . SP EAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opp- os ition. MR . NE ARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the hon. the Premier ., ,- J :.:Jlt

t. May 13, 1982 MR. NEARY: Honour will permit me. SOME RON. MEM EERS : MR. NEARY: Tape No. 157 EL - 2 with a short

preamble, if Your No, no. Beauchesne . A short

preamble. Mr. Speaker, the Parliament of Canada recently passed a piece of leqlslation makinq it mandatory for all the provinces of Canada, especially the province of Quebec,to allow a power cor~idor across the province of Quebec to transmit electrical energy f~ a- . Newfoundland across the province of Quebec. Now, Mr.

Speaker, this government, this administration and several previous administrations in this Province have been fiqht­ ing tooth and nail for that for year$ and I would have expected that there would be celebrations in Newfoundland sponsored by the provincial government because the Parl­ iament of Canada took this action really against the wishes of the province of Quebec. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Question, question~ MR. NEARY: Now, Hr. Speaker,. the legislature of Quebec is passing a bill objecting this or trying to outlaw or make it illegal for this corridor to go across - P~EMIER PECKFORD: HR.

SPEAKER (Russell) : Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD-~ A point of order, Mr. Speaker. A point of order, the hon. the I think that if the hon. the Opposition Leader and the Opposition House Leader is going to get up and s~art ouotinq subsections of Beauchesne about how long ministers are taking~hat they are taking too long in answering questions and giving information, then what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander and they should have a very short

preamble to their questions in the same 3S5

May lJ, 1982 Tape No. 157 EL-3 PREMIEr< PECKFORO: why as we have to give a short response to the questions they ask us. MR. SIMMS: Tit for tat. MR. NEARY: What is your citation? MR. HODDER: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (P.USSELL): To that point of order, the hon. member for Port au Port. ' ! ~, ._ u 1_

May U,l982 Tape No. 158 ah-1 !)[R. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, when the member for LaPoile (Mr. Nearv) was asking his question he was trying to clarify. When the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) was answerina his question,he was dealing with subjects other than those for which tne question was asked and was also straying into the realm of debate. There is quite a d1fference when you are trying to get a question across and you want to explain to the Premier what you are trying to say. That is quite a difference. MR. DINN: The tit for tat rule. MR.SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please!

The same rules of brevity should apply to the Opposition side as Wel] as the government side. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: I nave three or four specif1c questions to ask the hon. the Premier in connect1on with that piece of leglslation, Mr. Speaker. Number one, d1d the Tory party of Canada consult with the provincial government here in Newfoundland before they raised an objection to that piece of legislat1on granting a power corr1dor?

Number two, did the two Tory MPs from Newfoundland, did they consult with the provincial government before they abstained - PREMIER PECKFORD: You are making your questions too long. MR. NEARY: That is two questions - before they abstained from voting on that piece of legislation? And , number three, is there anything that we can do in this Province now to show our support to the Parl1ament of Canada for having the courage to pass this piece of legislation against the wishes of the Province of Quebec? MR.SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. 357

May 13,1982 Tape No. 158 ah-2 PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, first of all I do not think the legislation is passed yet and I think the Leader of the Opposition indicated that it was passed. MR. DINN: PREMIER PF.r.KFORD: It is still in second rea?ing. Hy understanding is that !. think it is still in second reading. So the Leader of the Opposition's facts are not clear and he does not understand that legislation is still legislation proposed by one side of the House. It has not passed.

Secondly, ~t should be remembered that the only reason why that part of the energy bill now before the House of Commons contains a component which is to give a power corridor to the Province of Newfoundland for passage of electr~cityt~rough Quebec is because we embarrassed the federal qovernment into so doing. SOME HON.MEMBERS: PREMIER PECKFORD: that. Hear, hear! Let there be no mistake about SOME JION.MEMRERS: llcar, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: We had private negotiations with the federal government.

One would not think that you would have to make an argument , one would think that it would have been done automatically years ago, to allow Newfoundland to transmit its energy products in the same way as other Canadians have had the right to do for a long period of time. But we had to argue. And behind closed doors we negotiated with the federal government and embarrassed them. As a matter of fact, we even told them the wording to put into the legislation. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: Now rather than, Mr.

Spe~er 1 rather than have one bill which had nothing in it except to give us the s~e rights of transmission of our electricit~ like Alberta or Saske.tchewan or BC has for its gas or oil, rather than do that 1 a clean bill with nothing else in 35B

May 13,1982 Tape No. 1:>8 ah-3 PREMJER PECKFORD: t~ere only to give us the same rights as other Canadians now enjoy and have always enjoyed since they were in Confederation, what did the federa: government do? They put that little component to give us the same rights as other ..., " . J J ~I

May 13, 1982 Tape 159 EC - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: Canadians now enjoy into a large, omnibus energy bill. The Progressive Conservative Party of Canada and the Opposition party in the Parliament are not objecting at all to the transmission corridor component of the energy bill, they are arguing against the great powers that the Minister of Energy will have on the other components in that bill.

If the federal government were really serious about showing how concerned they are about the inequality lhut exists in Newfoundland as it relates to the trans- mission of energy, they would have put in a separate bill which would have gone to the House of Commons zoom-o in about two seconds, because there was no argument from the N.D.P. Party of Canada, there was no argument from the Progressive Conservative Party of Canada about the transmission rights which we should enjoy with electricity t~e same as other provinces on oil and gas.

And the reason why our legislation, so-called, is held up is because it is part of a larger bill dealing with all energy matters in Canada in which the federal government is trying to get very, very large powers for the Cabinet and for the Minister of Energy. Nobody in the Parliament of Canada has argued one iota against the component which says that we should have a transmission corridor through the Province of Quebec. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, obviously the Premier missed the point completely, the point of my question, and he became rather argumentive there at the end. We are merely trying to indicate to the Premier and to the administration, Mr. Sp~aker, that we are concerned ' 3GO

May 13, 1982 Tape 159 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: about what is happening in the Province of Quebec, and we are offering a helping hand, if you wish, because the main question, the most important question I put to the Premier was about what is happening in the Legislature of Quebec. Is there anything that we can do in this House by way of Resolution, legislation or otherwise to show the Parliament of Canada and to show the Tory Party in Canada and the two Tory M.P.s from Newfoundla~d that we want this power corridor across Quebec and we will settle for nothing less?

Because if we do not do anything then Quebec may get its own way and may block that piece of legislation. This is what I am concerned about. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, it is too late for the Liberal Party of Newfoundland to suddenly jump on the Conservative bandwagon. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: Two or three years ago when we were arguing with the federal government on this point \'las the time for the Liberal Opposition to ask what could they do to help Newfoundland.

I will tell the Leader of the Opposition what he can do to help Newfoundland. 1 will tell him to foursquare come out and say he supports the January 25th proposal on the offshore - SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hear, hear ! PREMIER PECKFORD: - that he is against this business of Northern cod being traded off in Europe and Russia, that he is against the squid allocations which are being stolen away from the people of Newfoundland to create employment elsewhere. It is too late. The burn door i~ closed and the horse is out, Mr. Speaker.

For the Leader of the Opposition to suddenly get up in this House today and suC.denly want to get on the bandwagon 3 6 'i

May 13, 1982 Tape No. 160 so - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: of a great fight that we fought and won to persuade the federal government to bring in that legislation. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : of the Opposition. 111.R. NEARY: Hear, hear. Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary, the han. Leader Somehow or other, Mr. Speaker, I have a feeling, I could be wrong - PREMIER PECKFORD: More than likely. MR. NEARY: - I have a feeling that the Government of Canada is Liberal. Somehow or other I have that feeling.

I do not know if the Premier knows something that I do not know,but I believe there is a Liberal administration in Canada. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: stock is concerned - PREMIER PECKFORD: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Premier . PREMIER PECKFORD: Only one. Only one. Now as far as the Northern cod A point of order, Mr. Speaker. Order, please! A point of order, the han. the You have already made one ruling. I have tried to keep my answers brief and I think I have done so, Mr. Speaker. And I would ask the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary), we have all agreed that there is short

preamble necessary for questions but obviously the Leader of the Opposition now in Question Period is trying to make a speech. MR. HODDER: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker. To the point of order, the han. No, Mr. Speaker, the Premier in ~nswcrinq the question was argumentative, he provoked debate and he was at fault in the beginning. 352.

May 13, 1982 MR. WARREN : PREMIER PECKFORD: MR. SPEAKER (Russell): the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Tape No. 160 Right on. Right on. To the point of order, To the point of order, I have a citation, Mr. so - 2 Mr. Speaker. the hon. Speaker, which will clearly demonstrate \'i'hat I am trying to talk about. It is in Beauchesne, the rules and forms- everybody knows Beauchesne-

Chapter 9, page 132, we are on 359, subsecticFt 12) "The question must be brief". And it goes on to say, "1\.

preamble need not exceed one carefully drawn sentence". Now I know that might be difficult for the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary),but Beauchesne overrules him. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. HODDER: MR. SPEAKER: member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Hear, hear~ To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. To the point of order, the hon. If I hear what the Premier road it says, 'need not', it does not say 'must not'. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. WARREN: MR. SPEAKER: Hear, hear! You are a teacher, You are a teacher .

Order, please~ Beauchesne has a lot to say about questions both oral and written and maybe if the Chair stuck strictly to the rule very few questions would be permitted. Again I would ask hon. members to keep their questions brief and the hon. members to my left, answers brief. their MR. NE:ARY: MR. SPEAKER: of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: ~ supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary, the hon. Leader Would the hon. the Premier not agree that if we did not take a firm stand now, today, forget what happened in the past - SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. DINN: Oh .· nh. You would love to, would you not?

May l3 , l982 Tape No . 160 SD - 3 MR. NEARY: Mr . Speaker, I can go back to the mid -60's when t:he Premier of that day tried to get a "n"'"r r.orridor across Quebec - MR. S~AGG : Yes . He tried some hard . so·~r: nor~ . MEMBERS : Oh, oh . MR . NEARY: - left here once to go to Ottawa to demand that: it ~e done . But, Mr. Speaker, t-Jould the Premier indicate to the House if it \~ould not be in our b~st 1nt~rest, ac this moment, to show t~e Parliament of Canada that we are supportative of thisc:ause ,in whatever bill it is, but we are supportat ive of ch1S clause just the sa~e as we were supportative of a clause in the Constitution allowing the provincial qovernment to tax " ~ .)Q..,

May 13, 1982 Ta pe No.l6l EL - l MR. NEARY: power being exported out of Newfoundland-and I will ask the hon. gentleman a few questions about that probably tomorrow sometime - but would it not be in our interest now,while Quebec is vehemently and strongly objecting to this power corridor, for this legislature, for this government to show the people of Canada that we are behind the Parliament and the Government of Canada in getting this power corridor legislation through the parliament of this nation? PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker.. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, it is taken as given. Everybody in Newfoundland from Nain to St.Shotts,including now the latecomers, the members of the Opposition,that it is an embarrassment to the Canadian government, art embarrass­ ment to everybody who lives in the confines of Canada to have this kind of inequity continue. May I just as a sidelight, seeing the Leader of the Opposition brought it up: He mentioned that the former, former, former Premier, whatever, of this Province had gone to try to get a power corridor through Quebec.

I cannot understand why the former, former, former Premier could not get a power corridor thro.ugh the province of Quebec in the same way as this government,or the admin­ istration preceding us which was the same government,was able to do with the present federal government. And you cannot excuse an Upper Churchill contract which is losing us a half H.illion dollars a year that way, in the way the Leader of the Opposition is now trying to do it. It is quite clear to all of the people of Canada and to the Parliament of Canada that this is sound, reasonable leg­ islation.

I am glad to have, belated though it is, the 365

May 13, 1982 Tape No. 161 EL - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD : support now of the Leader of the Opposition and the party that he represents in the argue­ ments that We"put forward a year and a half ago. But I ask the question where was the Leader of the Opposition, where was the Liberal Party when we were negotiatinq that two years ago? There was not a peep from the other side.

In the same way, one day when we will win on the offshore, one day when we will win on the offshore, the opposite side, the Liberal Party of Newfoundland will stand up and try to take credit for something that was fought for by the PC Party of Newfoundland,which they rejected. When they see the tide coming in, Mr. Speaker, they will be on it like they are right now. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. the Mr.

Speaker, let me ask·-the hon. gentleman is not going to intimidate me - but let me ask the han. gentleman some serious, serious questions. Is not the hon. gentleman concerned that there is a bill going through the legislature in the Province of Quebec to bar this corridor? Is not the han. gentleman concerned that the national Tory party, the Tory party of Canada is aqainst this bill? Is not the hon. gentleman concerned that the two Tories from Newfoundland abstained from voting· on this bill? If we just lie down 1 Mr.

Speaker, if we just lie down and do nothing, is not the han. gentleman concerned that that power corridor may never become a reality even though it has gone through second reading of the House of Commons? 366

.... May 13, 1982 Tape 162 EC - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I am not so negative as the Leader of the Opposition. If Mr. LaLonde and the federal government, which is the national Government of Canada, introduce a law into the Parliament of Canada and it is passed then it overrides a resolution or a bill in any of the legislative assemblies of Canada concerning energy transmission, And I would say to the hon. gentleman, do not be so skeptical of his own govv rnmcn :_ in Ottawa; do not be so skeptical of the National Energy Board.

In the same way as there is now transmission allowed by oil ~d gas, it is going to be extended to energy products! and whether the National Assembly, so-called, of the Province of Quebec wants to pass a resolution or a bill, everybody in Canada, all the lawmakers in Canada know it is just another attempt by Quebec to demonstrate its ongoing objections to a very inequitable piece of law that is now on the books, or a contract that is now on the books. So I am not scared of Mr. Levesque, I am not scared of the National Assembly of Quebec.

We have won the battle on the transmission of electricity because lhe Federal Government of Canada's law when it becomes law will be the overriding factor to be considered and every­ body tram coast to coast, lawmakers and everybody else know that it is unchallengable that this whole question of transmission of electric power is a very, very great embarrassment to all of Canada and these kinds of bills, laws or resolutions being introduced in the National Assembly are going nowhere fast, that Quebec is on its last legs as it relates to that and we are going to go through with the federal government,after we have persuaded them o~ this legislation,and get it in place.

So I am not at all afraid about the Province of Quebec. They have lost already on a number 367

May 13, 1982 PREMIER PECKFORD: on this one. SOME liON. MEMBERS : MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Tape 162 EC - 2 o£ cases and are going to lose Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker, a final supplementary. A final supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the only thing I can say to the little games that the hon. the Premier is playing right now 1 little political games, is that it is a good thing that we have a Liberal Government up in Ottawa.It is tne only thing I can say to the hon. gentleman. But if I were the hon. gentleman, Mr.

Speaker - and I want to again come back to a Resolution from this House, because I think it is necessary I think, Mr. Speaker, if the hon. gentleman were to introduce a Resolution he would have no trouble to ge·t unanimous consent of this House to endorse this piece of legislation granting a power corridor across Quebec by this great Liberal Government up there in Ottawa. But the hon. gentleman is aware just as well as I am that Quebec - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

The hon. the Leader of the Opposition has, in the opinion of the Chair, takeD a little too long to ask the question. I would suggest that he get on with the question. MR. NEARY: lriell, is the hon. gentleman aware that Quebec has the second highest number of members of Parliament in Ottawa? And is the hon. gentleman aware that sometimes 3oa

May 13, 1~82 Tape No. 163 MJ - l M.l:{. S. NEARY: the power of political persuasion can change things - the hon. gentleman should be aware of it if he is not, and with the pressure that is coming on from Quebec, would it not be in our best interest in this Province to pass a resolution in th1s !louse, unan1mously, and send 1t off to the Parliament or the Prime Minister of Canada, to the Parliament of Canada to ask that they ignore the legislation in the Province of Quebec - MR. J. HODDER: And 1gnore Mr. Crosbie. MR. Nt:ARY: - ancl 1 gnore Mr. Crosbie Clnti Mr.

McGrath and the Tory party and put th1s p1ece of leqislat.Lon through despite them? PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER(Russell): The hon. the Premier. PRt:Mit:R PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I really find it amusing. Every time we talk about the federal government 1n this House we are accused of being confrontationists, we are accused of trying to attack Ottawa, we want to slough all the problems of Newfoundland off on to Ottawa, and here is the Liberal party of Newfoundland now suspect of their own senior party in Ottawa. MR. NEARY: No, Quebec. MR. HODDER: You arc darn right we arc.

PREMIER PECKFORD: I would have thought that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary} would know that his leader the Prime Minister, that the Energy Min1ster of Canada that great Liberal, Mr. Lalonde would not buckle down to a bit of pressure from his home province when he knows that fairness and equity across Canada is the overriding principle to be sustained here. MR. NEARY: Well, if we lose 1t we will blame it on you. PREMIER PECKFORD: I am not nearly as nervous of Mr . Lalonde 2nd of the Prime Minister as is the Leader of the 369

May 13, L98~ •rape No. 163 MJ - 2 Opposition, number one. Number two, Mr. Speaker, as I understand it that what has been introduced into the National 1\ssembly of Quebec - MR. NEARY: I would not trust the hon. Mr. Lalonde now as far as I could throw him. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PReMIER PECKFORD: What did he say? MR. L. SIMMS : He sa~d he would not trust him as far as he could throw him. PREMIER PECKFORD : Mr. Speaker, d~d I hear properly? Did the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) of the Liberal party in this Province say he would not trust Mr. Lalonde as far as he could throw him? SOM~ HON.

MEMB~RS: PREMIER PECKFORD: SOME HON. MEMBERS: PREMIER PECKFURD: Hear, hear: Wonderful, wonderful! Hear, hear! Hear, hear! I move, Mr. Speaker, the following resolution: That th~s House go on record as supporting the contention of the Leader of the Opposition that none of us would trust Mr. Lalonde any further than we would throw him. SOME HON. MlliMB~RS: Hear, hear! M.K.. N.t;ARY: Do not run ~t into the ground now. Do not run it into the ground now. PREMIER P~CKFORD: Secondly, Mr. Speaker, as I understand ~t to this moment, what has been introduced into the National Assembly of QUebec is a resolution, not a bill.

It is just an expression of sentiment by the National Assembly and has no basis in law at all. It is just a resolution and not a b~ll. BJt we welcome the support of the Leader of the Opposition we hope he speaks for the other seven on his side of the House. SOM~ HON. MEMBERS: He certainly does. PREMIER PECKFORD: We welcome it. It is two years late. Better late than never. 37U

,_. May lJ, 1982 SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SP~AKER(Russel~ ) ; Oral Questions has expire d. business Tape No. 163 MJ-3 Hear, hear! Order please! The time for Before we proceed to other 371

May 13 , 1982 Tape No . 164 NM - 1 MR . SPEAKER (RUSSELL) : it is a distinct plea sure fer me to welcome to the galleries today exchange students from the George Ellio~t Second ary Sc~ool of Winfield, British Columbia , with their chaperones Mr. Norm Malwinney, ~~ . Bill Mai re, and Mr s. Marilyn Bartell, along with their ho sts,who are the Mount Pearl Central High, with ~eir host teacher ,~ r. Cal Button. I extend a sincere welcome to you all . SOME HON. ME~mERS : Hear, heaz~ ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN G!\~: DR . COLLINS : Mr. Spe~~er. MR . SPEAKER : The hon . l1inister o= FL"la~ce. DR .

COLLINS : Mr. Speaker, I would just like to answer Que stion 27 , from the hon . House Leader opposite (Mr . Hodder) who asked the hon . Minister of Fin ance to lay upon the table of the House the following informa~lon : a l~st of names and salaries of execu~ive assitants, parliament ary assistants, and public relations special ists, appointed to the minister's staff for the fiscal years 1979, 1980, 1981 . SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR . BARRETT : ~m .. NEARY: The answer is none. Hear, hear! Is tha~ stort enough? That is o~y one mini ster. 3i ;

May 13, 1982 Tape No . 164 NM - 2 PRESENTING PETITION S: ~ - SPEAKER (Russell) : The han . member for Torngat Mount ains. MR. WARRE N : Yes , Mr . Speaker, I rise on beha~f of ninety res: .dentc; in the community of R.igolet. Maybe, Mr. SPeaker, bcfm;c I Stilrt the pctitior I should indicate that it may fall into th e federal ~overnrnent' s haz:ld~ , to a certain deqree but it also will have some cO"' l cct.ir .m with this government as this goverr~ent does hav~ a ~ iniste~ of Communications (:1r. Doyle) now . tt says, "Whereas the commu nity of Rigolet is completely isolated from up -t o-date news, \veather and sports, and

whereas it is of the utmost import~~ce to be in communication with the rest of Canada and the wor ld , and where as the residents of the cor.unun.lty of Rigolet, being Canadian citizens, have a legal and mo ral right to have access to a =o~unicatio~s link in today's society, therefore we, the und ersigned, in all sincerity urge the combined councils of Labrador, the Can .adian Broadcastin g Corporation, the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador, to resolve and encourage any and all possibilities of acquiring li ve televisio n service to our community ." Mr .

Speaker, one ha s to realize that from Goose Bay to Nain that in the communit y of Rigolet, and the commu :1ity of Postville there is no radio, or te:evisl.an . 3i3

May 13,1982 Tape No. 165 ah-1 MR. WARREN: There before the election campaign there was what y8u call canned televis1on in the commu~ity of Rigolet. That was provided by my opponent, but once he lost the election he went into Rigolet and took out the television set. MR. NEARY: He was a sore looser. MR. WARREN: He could have been a sore looser, ~1r. Speaker~ As of the present day the people of Rigolet do not have any television whatsoever, Mr. Speaker.

Now there have been communications with the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation and the town council of Rigolet and myself over the past two or three months and we have been advised by the CBC that they have no immediate plans in the next three or four years to have any kind of television or radio service in that community. It is also worthy of note, Mr. Speaker, that Rigolet is about ninety miles out the lakE' from Happy Valley- Goose Bay . which has two radio stations and five or six TV channels. And also it is midway between the community of Makkovik and the community of Cartwright. And I would think, Mr.

Speaker, that with the support of this government 1 and 1n particular now knowing that we have a new Minister of Communications (Mr. Doyle), that he would take every opportunity available to approach the CRTC and any other bodies associated with television and radio to have parts of Newfoundland and Labr~dor, that do not receive television or radio service to try and bring those towns and those communities in line with the civilization in which we presently liv'e. Thank you very much. AN HON.MEMBER: Hear, Hear! MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: l'lr.

Speaker, I support the .... -· J/4

May 13,1982 Tape No . .t65 ah-2 t-!R . NEARY : oetition so ably presented by my hon . colleague,t he me::lber !or Torngat MountaJ.ns U·1r .Wm:rcn ) and I would l!':te to te.:. ~ the House that my colleague anu the member for Eagle ~iver (tolr . Hiscock) accompanied me la st week to a hearing o{ the CRTC do~~ here at the Holiday Inn and I thought \'le rr.ade a very strong presentation . MR . NARREN : The t-•inister of Communication (Mr. Doyle) ·.-ras not there though. MR . NEARY: No , the MinJ.ster of communicatj .o n (Mr. Doyle) was no': -::~e:-e .

I dJ..d not see any representat l.J II :rom the proviacial government a-:: all at tnese hearings. But we made a very strong case to have television brouqht .into the areas where they do not have not even one channel, and to bring the second channel .L.""lto parts of Nevlfoundlilnd where people are forced to w.ltch the CllC . WhL1c r was listening to my colleague there presenting the petition,! \.,.as reminded, 14r. Speaker, that when I was Minister of Social Services one of the things that I did when I \'olas the minister of that department ;..1as to get a projector, a movie projector for Riqolct .

"'Y hon . fr1cnct wi II rc-m·~mhcr that Rigolet 375 ~

May 1~, 1982, Tape 166, Page 1 -- apb MR. NEARY: at the time was not included in the Norther Labrador agreement with Ottawa. I think one of the last things I did in that department was to bring Rigolet under that agreement. For some reason or other it went from North West River to Nain and they jumped over Rigolet. So when we did bring them in, I went down there and I asked the people what they wanted. Apart from housing and a few other things, they told me one of the things that wanted more than anything else was a movie projector. because all of the other communities could watch movies and they would not.

So I arranged to get a few dollars and put a movi~ projector into Rigolet. But that was a long time ago, Mr. Speaker. We have come a long way since then with satellites going up, and people now talking - and the Minister of Fisheries(Mr. Morgan) knows what I am talking about - people wanting to become millionaires on pay television. They want to become tycoons. But, ~1r. Speaker, all the people of Rigolet, the Southwest coast of this Province, the Northeast coast, the Great Northern Peninsula, all they want, Mr. Speaker, in a few communities in Northern Labrador, Southern Labrador is one channel.

In the rest of Newfoundland they would like to have an alternative to CBC, they would like to have the second channel. And they think they are entitled to that privilege just the same as the people in St. John's, Gander, Grand Falls, Corner Brook, and every other community in Newfoundland, where they get two channels, and, in addition to that, they can have cable television if they want to pay for it. And in addition to that, now we are going to have CanCom, we are going to have pay television and there will be a few more tycoons in Newfoundland. Because we 3/'6

May 13, 1982, Tape 166, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: are told that a television station is like a licence to print your own money. I do not know if that is correct or not, Mr. Speaker, perhaps the Minister of Fisheries(Mr. Morgan) could tell us. But, Mr. Speaker, I support the petition. I think it is long overdue. I think the people in these corrununitics arc entitled to these services. I have a file down there, Mr. Speaker, on my own district that thick, telexes, a letter to the Minister of Transport(Mr. Pepin), to the Minister of Corrununications, to the CRTC like you would not believe. It is a real nightmare.

People are becoming frustrated. In some corrununities they do not even get radio, I believe, in Northern Labrador - do they? MR. WARREN: In Davis Inlet and in Rigolet. MR. NEARY: In Davis Inlet and Rigolet they do not even hear the - MR. WARREN: And Makkovik. MR. NEARY: And Makkovik, and in Charlottetown, in my hon. colleague's district, they do not even have a radio station from Newfoundland. And I think this is terrible, Mr. Speaker.

And I hope, as a result of the petition that is presented in this House today, and the representation that we made to the CRTC the other day - my two colleagues from Labrador - that these people will get this long overdue service. So I supportthe prayer of the petition, Mr. Speaker. 3/7

May 13, 1982 Tape 167 EC - 1 MR. DOYLE: Mr. Speaker. MR. ~PEAKER (Russell) : The han. the member for Harbour Main - Bell Island. MR. DOYLE: Mr. Speaker, as the minister responsible for communications in this Province, I certainly want to support also the petition so ably presented by my friend from Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) on behalf of the ninety residen ·ts of Riga let.

I am sure, though, in presenting that petition, Your Honour, that the han. gentleman is fully aware that the responsibility for that particular area lies within federal jurisdiction and, of course, as the minister responsible for communications, I will certainly make every effort on behalf of the ninety residents of Rigolet to contact the federal minister responsible for communications and to make these concerns known to the people in that particular area. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. DOYLE: As a matter of fact, Mr.

Speaker, within the next week or so I will be meeting, as will all other nine provincial ministers responsible for corrmuni- cations - we will be meeting with Francis Fox in Calgary next week and I will certainly make the han. gentleman's concerns known at that particular time. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. DOYLE: I would also like to _make a comment or two with respect to what the Opposition Leader mentioned with respect to Pay T.V. That also lies within federal jurisdiction and we are quite anxious as the provincial gover·nment to get jurisdiction over that particular part of the communications sector.

As a matter 'Of fact, six licences, Mr. Speaker, were granted 378

·ay 13, 1982 Tape :67 EC - 2 M..~ . DOYLE: for originating and distribution of pay T.V. ;~~t ~oday. None of these licences are for local exhibi~ion o~ the s~vice but are of a federa l ~ature and a national na~:..;r'(:! . 3u'::, ~..r . Speaker, I am very well aware of '"'hat res:.dcnts of Rigolet are going -.hrou~i1 in this particular r"'?'-'·<1 a: Hl I support the petition so ably presentee by ~,e hon . member . SCME BON . MEMBERS: near, hear: ORDERS OF THE D1\Y PRE."l. .IER PECKFORD: I sug;est the House resolve itself into Committee o~ Supply . MR . SPEAKE R (Russell) : l?RlilM:tBR FECKFORD: Committee o( Supply?

Yes . ~tr . Speaker . On motion , that the House resolve itself into Co mmittee of the Whole on Supply Mr . Speake r left the Chair. 378 •

May 13, 1982 Tape No. 168 SD - 1 COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : Order, please! I would like to remind hon. members that we a=e in Committee of Supply now dealing with the gianting of s~pply to Her Majesty. Opposition. MR. NEARY: The hon. the Leader of the H:t. Chairman, I am only going to speak briefly just to repeat some of the points we raised the other day in connection with this Interim Supply Bill. First of all, it is a record Interim Supply Bill- $675 million. I do not know what percentage of the Budget that is. I would assume it is more than one-third of this year's Budget.

I do not think the Budget this year will be any more than $1,500 million or $1,600 million. So I would think the $675 million would be more than one-third of the provincial Budget. $129 million of the amount, Mr. Chairman, was spent unlawfully, wns spent by the government without the authority of the Legislature. And according to all the research that we have done, this spending of public money without authority is unlawful. And the ministers should be prepared to admit man-fashion that it is unlawful to spend money without the authority of the provincial Legislature, of the !louse of Assembly.

Now the other day when I mentioned that well we may hang her down for a little while on this Interim Supply Bill, I went out to do an interview with a representative of the media and we had spent at that time, I think, less than two hours and probably between an hour. and a half and two hours on Interim Supply - $675 million. And you know the first question that was put to me said, 'Mr. Neary, is the Opposition filibustering?' Less 38i\

May 13, 1982 ~ape No . 168 SO - 2 MR . NEARY : than two hours on ~675 million and this partict.: lar -e>prese~tative of the media \\'anted to '-now if the Opposition was !ilibustcring . ~lR . TULK: ~id you say yes or what? DR . COLLINS : ~hat did you answer? ~ . NEARY : Pardo:~:' OR . COLLINS : Nhal:. '"as you:- answer? • M..~ . NEARY : 1·7ell I was very !<il.d as a matter o= fact, very !<i~d.as l ~sually a~ to the media - SOME HON . MEM~ERS: Oh, oh! MR . NEARY : - knowing that the media can mak e or bre ak you .

And l said no , we "'ere not filibustedn q, we were merely trying to ge~ info=mation for the people o( thi s Prov in ce . !'Tow that is \~hat we are going to do . Here is our plan , Mr . Chairman, and it \-lill dep~nd on the co -operation that we yet from the minister and (rom Lhc go ve rnment whether or not they will get Interim Supply by the deadline,which is tomorrow, I believe, The six weeks are up tomorrow , After to~orrow the government will not be able to spend another penny , although 3En

May 13, 1982 Tape No. 169 EL - 1 MR. NEARY: I have doubts about that. They have spent $129 million illega1ly,but now the House is opened, I do not suppose they would be brazen enough to go and look for Lieutenant­ Governor's Warrants - MR. CALLAN: Yes, and that they would. MR. NEARY: - and have the Co~ptrol1er of the Treas- ury overruled by Treasury Board- MR. CALLAN: Sure they would. MR . NEARY: - while the House is open to get money to pay their bills after tomorrow, But tomorrow is the deadline and we are, Mr.

Chairman, as I said on opening day-and again I have to take a newsman to task, Not really to task, I thought it was a - MR. WARREN: A misunderstanding. MR. NEARY: Yes, probably he misunderstood what I said on opening day,when I said that we were going to support the government at least on three measures, On the offshore oil, on the power corridor across Quebec, and the re-opening of the Churchill Falls contract, we are in complete agreement and support of the government. Now, that does not necessarily mean that we agree with their tactics.

Sometimes we may have to disagree with the approach or with their unnecessary confrontation attitude. Like today, when I was trying to pin the Premier down. That is to help Newfoundland, Mr. Speaker. That does not necessarily mean that we are just going to go overboard and everything is going to be sweet­ ness and light and we are all going to get out and waltz around the floor of the legislature. When the government needs to be taken to task, we will take the government to task. When they bring in a measure that we think is in the best in­ terest of the Province, whether it be a piece of legislation 3B2

~,ay 13, 1982 Tape No . 169 EL - 2 MR . NEARY' or \.,t)'lether it be a strategy in connection with the three projects ! just mentioned, so be it . But ~"e have to separate the se three :. terns from the other,things in the economy,and the other matters that will be raised in this House,and the other state­ ments and speeches ma~e L~ ~his House , Mr . Speaker . And ~hat is what I meant on opening day . It does not mean that the governm t'nt ciln now ride roughshod over everybody . I want to reass ure the people of this Province that when the aov ernment needs to be criticized, we will criticize them.

But we intend to co -operate for at least the fir st six months . And in this particular instance , I do no t supp ­ ose any administration could violate the privileges of parliament, the traditions of parliament as much as they did in spending money without authority . That is about the worst ~~ing that any administration can do . It is no-no , Mr . Chairman . And that is why a couple of days 383 .. ..

May 13, 1982 Tape No. 170 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: ago, the day before yesterday, that I was so strong in my condemnation of the administration, and so critical of the administration, who overruled the eomptroller of the Treasury, and who refused to table a legal opinion in the House, who refused to give us the Auditor General's Report, who refused to tell us why new capital projects were included in interim supply. That is never done.

All interim supply is, in case the new members do not realize what we are talking about here, interim supply is money needed by the government,because they could not bring down a budget before the end of the fiscal year 1 to pay their bills. That .is all .it is. In this case it is $675 million,with new projects, new capital works projects. I have never known that to happen before. And the minister, all he has done so far, is sneer at us, and jeer at us because we dare raise these important points, these important matters. wanted to - MR. CALLAN: MR. NEARY: So, Mr.

Chairman, I just Typical arrpgance. - to repeat a few of these points because they are so important. Because, Mr. Chairman, as sure as I am standing here, and as sure as the member for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg) is sitting over there .in his seat - MR. CALLAN: MR. STAGG: MR. NEARY: today. MR. CALLAN: SOME HON. MEMBERS : He is, is he? He is still here. And he is here for a change I thought he was in Stephenville. Oh, oh~ 354

\. May 13, 1982 MR. NEli.RY: MR. STAGG: MR . TULK: MR. STAGG: MR. TULK: Carbonear (Mr . Peach) . M...~. NEARY: MR. STAGG: MR. CHAIR~ (Ayl ward ) : MR. STAGG: Tape No. 170 NN- 2 And as sure as tl'le ne~>l member - Not fair . And who would protest? Not fair. Not parliamen tary . Maybe the member for - and as sure, Mr . Chairman - A point of order, Mr . Chah: man . Order, please! The hon. member for Stephe~ville .

Now i t \vas brought to my attenti on very forcefully and correctly , I may add, last year by t i.e former member for Carbonear, when I was summing up in the Conunittee, that he had not attended any of the Committee meetings, and it was brought forward by him that it is unparliamentary to refer to the absence of a member from the House of Assembly . M...~. NEARY: He was not referrinq to your absence , he was referring t o your pre sence. MR . STAGG: The hon . member may not say indirectly what he cannot say directly. That is also a rule that the hon . member honours in the breach . ~1r.

Chairman, yesterda y I \·las in stephe nville attending the opening of buildin g 360 of the Bay St. George Community College, a magnificent event in the history of this Province , and in the history of my district . I was there where all members should be . 385

May 13, 1982 Tape No . 170 NM- 3 MR . STAGG : And ~he hon. member, in an unparliamentary way, is indicating, or alluding, or insinuating that I do not attend the House, which it is my duty and every member 's duty to do . MR . NEARY : Mr . Chairman, if it will make the hon . gentleman feel any better I am noc insinuatJ.ng anything . I just happened co look down, the hon . gentleman smiled at me and I thought ~ would give him a little bit of recognition for a change. SOME HON . MEMBERS: Rear, hear! M-~ . NEARY: Obviously, Mr . Chairman, he has no intention of speaking in the House. I do not know 3d6

May 13 , 1982 Tape No . 1 71 ah-1 MR . NEARY: if all t he members are muzzled over t here or not . The ~on . gentl~~an - MR . c.!\!; LAN : him any recogniti on . MR. NEAR'i: The Premi er nas never g~va~ That is right . Otherwi se he would have been in the Cabinet . MR. C.~LLAN: That is right . MR. NEARY: Just the same , Mr. Chqirman,as r am glad to see t:he member for Bur~n (r-!r. Tobin) in nis seat today. MR . CHAI~~N(Aylward): This is to the point of order: MR . NEARY: No , if I - MR . SPEAKER: We ll to that point of order , I r ule that there is a di£ference of opinion between ti·IO hon . members. MR .

NEARY: The !lon . Leader o f the Opposition . I am so glad to see the member for Burin - l?alcent ia l·iest (Mr . Tobin) ~n his seat today . It t.;ras rumoured tlie hon. gentleman was go i ng into the Cabinet . I do not kno\" if the member for Conception Bay South (Mr. Butt) is here today . MR . CALLAN: Re was e.arlier . MR . NEARY : I d o not l<n0'" if there is dissention in the ranx s already,Mr . ChaDrntan . It would appear tha t way. MR. HODDER: Al so the member £or Fortune - Hermitage (Mr Stewart) there, he is starting to even l eok like a Cabinet minister . MH.

NEJ\RY: 'l'hdl '. l!> 1 tqhL. /\nd tilt' 1\ll'lllh~'l for Fortune - Hermi tage (Mr. Stewart) moved up ~n the front seat s . ! thought for sure he was going into the Cabinet . MR . HODDER: You notice he louks like one? 387 ..

May 13,1982 Tape No. 171 ah-2 MR. NEARY: But I would say that rust now will start to set ~n rather early. The d~ssention has already set in. And, Mr~ Chairman, we have lots of room on this side of the House. We can put a few seats down on that side, a few seats to my left and a few seats in here behind. So when they all get the message some of them will be welcome. SOME HON.MEV.BERS: Oh, oh! MR.HODDER: Not all of them. No, not all of them. Just some of them. MR.WARREN: The member for Fortune-Herm~tage is not welcome, ny the way. MR. NEARY: But anyway, Mr. Cha~rman, let me get back to the Interim Supply Bill.

What I think we will do or,what I would like to do, what we would like to do, Mr. Chairman, we would like to get some specifics about this Interim Supply. MR. WARREN: Yes. MR.NEARY: And what we would like to do if the minister will co-operate and the administration will co-operate they may get their Interim Supply Bill by tomorrow and they may not. It depends on their attitude. If they continue to be arrogant and dictatorial and insultinq and rude and nasty they will not get their Interim supply Bill. We would like to pass ~t. We would like their co-operation. So what we will do, I think, Mr.

Chairman, is each shadow will ask the minister specific questions . The minister told us the other day he had two books on his desk with all kinds of information crammed in between the covers. MR. CHAIRMAN: I want to remind the hon. member that his time has elapsed. MR. WARREN: By leave. 388

... May 13,1982 Tape No. 171. ah-3 MR . CHAIIW.k~ (Ayhtard) : The hon. ML11ister of Pl.nance . DR . COLLINS: ~ . Chairman, tne hon . Leader of the Opposition asked a few points there and I thl.nk it m.1.ght be as well I ans\·ler them as time goes along . Actually he did not ask any ne\·1 questions so I really am repeatinq what I have already said . He commented that ~he !nter1m Supply Bl.ll. which is for a four month period actually 1 amounts to more that one third of the total Budget. Well , you know, he does not know what the total Budget .l.S yet but I 11ill let that go. But even if .l.t does go more than one third, 389 ,.

May 13, 1982 Tape No. 172 MJ - 1 DR. J. COLLINS: I have already explained that. The Interim Supply Bill is perhaps larger than would ordinarily be expected because it includes in it funds for capital expenditures, but that is not something unique to this year. That has been done before. It was done last year.

There was funding for new capital expenditures last year also,And it was done again this year for the very good reason that the economy is in a great deal of difficulty, not by our doing by and larege - I do not suppose any government can say, you know, that they have no hand in how the economy is preforming­ but by and large it is not our doing. We do not have that much control from a monetary point of view over the economy, that is a federal responsibility.

The economy is in trouble largely because of part'icular federal policies, and we have to try within the means available to us to counter these negative influences or these negative impacts in our part of the country from those federal policies . And the way we did was to pre-tender certain capital works. Now we could only pre-tender those works if the amount. that was going to be expended on those capital works was included in the Interim Supply Bill. So that is why the Interim Supply Bill is rather larger than perhaps would ordinarily expected. Now the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. s.

Neary) commented on the media - I just forget in what context now, but he said something about the media. I do not suppose uqain, you know, that we are all happy with the media. I know I had a little bit of a run-in with the media recently where I made a comment in response to one question and,lo and behold 1 it carne out my cornmeFlt was . in relation to another question. The cornmentor posed arnother question and my comment to an entirely different question was added on to that and gave the whole thing a t~ribly wrong context. And I think the rnedi~ we in this 390

l-1ay 13, 19 82 Tape No . 1 7?. :>lJ - 2 DR. J. COLLINS : House have a duty to bring our concerns about the :ned.i.a to their attention every once <~ncl a ....m.le when they co that. !': is not so ~uch that it is embarrassing to us, which it is to so~e ~xtent, but it is misleadi~9 ~he people . And I think the ~e c ia had a tremendous responsibility , by the very nature of the privileges they are given in this House, not to mis1Pad the- pe<)p1a . i\nd I think sometimes tl'•' people are misled !:>y doing things in the wrong context . No v.• another thing about the media that I might just mention, the hon .

Leader of the Opposition (Mr . S. Neary) there said, ynu know, that we v.•ere illegal, that we did something illegal in regard to the Special Narrants that were brought in on March 31st. I must say that I think the media sort of asked him about that a little while aqo and my view of thinqs is that I thought the repo+ter came out much ahead of the Leader of the Opposition . The Leader of the Opposition was going on with his old, you know, really not 39

May 13, 1982, Tape 173, Page 1 -- apb DR. COLLINS: supportable arguments,that what was done was totally outside the precedents of what has been done in the past and totally outside what our Statutes say can be done, which is not so at all. And I think the reporter tackled him on that and pointed out the falacies in his arguments, and I think the whole thing about it, the Leader of the Opposition(Mr. Neary) did not look too well at the end of the interview. So I think that covers the points that have been raised so far. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman. --- --- MR. CHAIRMAN(Aylward): The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. NEARY: First of all, Sir, I regret now that I raised the matter about that interview when I was asked about whether we were carrying on a filibuster. I did not mean in any way, shape or form, Mr. Chairman, to 9ive anybody a launching pad, especially the Minister of Finance(Dr. Collin), a launching pad to attack the media. That was not my reason for bringing it up. I regret very much now bringing it up, because it gave the Minister of Finance an opportunity, in a cowardly way, to attack the media, because they cannot defend themselves in this hon. House.

The hon. gentleman had to sneak in his little snide remarks. I heard one of the reporters the other day saying that - what was it he said about the minister? - 'He was sneering and jeering at the Opposition', I heard on radio the other day. Sneering and jeering. 382

! May 13, 1982, Page 2, Tape 173 -- apb DR. COLLINS: Misquoted. Misquoted. MR. NEARY: The hon. gentleman was misquoted, was he? DR. COLLINS: If you change your expression you ar e misquoted again, obviously, in the media. What dari ng. SOME HON. MEMBERS: He ar, hear! MR. NEARY: Well, the hon. gentleman was certainly sneering. And this is becoming now a landmark of this government. Their arrogance, only after less than a week in the House, is starting to come through to the people of this Province. Mr.

Chairrnun, with regard to the other part of the hon. gentleman's statement about how I was not right when I said that things were done illegally, well, Mr. Crosbie, back in 1972, admitted that it was illegal. MR. HODDER: And you c<tnnot. DR. COLLINS: You just said, 'Forget the past'. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: And, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Bernard G. Carew, who happens to be a servant of this House, who happens to be one of three servants of this House in this Province, refused to give the administration authority to spend $129 million without the authority of thls House.

What does the hon. gentleman say about that? Mr. carew, did he not know what he was talking about? DR. COLLINS: An excellent civil servant. MR. NEARY: An excellent civil servant. Knew what he was talking about. Well, let us see what he said: 'In accordance with the requirements of the Financial Administration Act,I am writing to 393

May 13, 1982, Tape 173, Page 3 -- apb MR. NEARY: info rm you that I must decline to issue money out of the Consolidated Revenue Fund pursuant to the above noted warrant on the grounds that there is no legislative authority thereof'. Does that have a familiar ring? Is that ~ - J ;j ~~

May 13, 1982 Tape No. · 174 EL - 1 MR. NEARY: what I said? That is precisely what I said, supported by the highest ranking public servant in the l<tnd, the comp­ troller of the Public Treasury. And I say, I repeat, Mr. Chairman, again what I said the other day - it does not seem to get through to the hon. gentleman and he can sneer and jeer all he wants, and he can be as ar!"ogant as he wants - once you remove the power of the purse fro10 the floor of parliament you are taking away the only protection that the people out there have.

The control of the purse strings rests with parliament,not with an elite clique down on the eighth floor of the Confederation Building. That is wrong. And the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) knows it is wrong and the Minister of Finance knows that he is asking this House to approve an unlaw­ ful act. Of course, they have the majority,and I am sure the new members over there think they will be doing the right thing because they will follow the Minister of Finance and they will vote,aye,for this bill, They will all vote in favour of it because the Minister of Finance can do no wrong.

Well, he has been here for a few years. He is the Minister of Finance, they have the legal opin­ ions of the Justice Department so therefore the Minister of Finance knows what he is doing and they will all follow him like a bunch of sheep. MR. WARREN: But some of them will go astray eventually. MR. NEARY: They will follow him over the cliff, over the cliff. These members who do not know the difference should realize that it is a no~no to spend,after a fiscal 395

May 13 , 1982 Tape No . 174 EL - 2 MR. NEARY : year en ds 1 without the authority of the legislature. Now you can do i~ by brute force , forty - four to eight . \ve can be outvoted, forty -four to eight. There is no \o~ay we can win . But I ask hon. gentlemen to rem ember this , that they when they vote in favour of that bill they are voting for an unlawful ac1: committed by the adminis~ratl.on . And 1:hat, Mr . Chairm~~, is a pretty ser iou s mat1:er . And so there l.S nothing we can do about it , Mr .. Chairma n, nothinq we can do about it .

We can get down now to s peci~ics and we can ask the minister a lot of questions about under the various sub­ heads and how this money is going to be spent . 356

i:.:.:.. May 13, 1982 Tape 175 EC - l MR. NEARY: Perhaps I could start off the questioning myself, and if the questions are short the answers should be equally as short, we may in the process be able to get some information. Because one of the big criticisms of the Opposition in the last few years has been that we have been making speeches and we have not been asking enough questions or getting enough information. Now we are going to give the minister and his colleagues an opportunity to provide the people of this Province with the information. I will start off with the Department of Energy.

Could the hon. gentleman tell us what projects come under hce1d oi Expcnuiturc VJJ - Mim's L\nd Energy, $16,000,372~ Can the hon. gentleman give us a breakdown and tell us how that $16 million is made up? I will take my seat and I will give the hon. gentleman a chance to - he has his books there in front of him and I presume the civil servants have provided him with all the information - give us a breakdown of that $16 million. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward): The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, the hon. member has asked a specific question and I will be glad to respond to that.

But I will do it in just a moment because this question of the special warrants keeps corning up,and as long as it keeps corning up anC. the comments are put in such a way that it seems that this government has been acting illegally, I am going to respond and say that we did not act illegally, and I am going to point out why. Now we can go on with this forever, but t am not going to leave the last word with the Opposition that we acted illegally, that we acted outside authority. I am not 397

May 13 , 198 2 Tape 175 EC - 2 DR . COLLINS : going to leave it like that . So if we want to get on with this we will have to stop these comments because I insist I am going to correct any statements that I think are incorrect. I am not going to leave on the record an unans\.rered, incorrect statement in this regard because I thi~k it is too serious . I think the people of the Province have a right to be assured that their gover~~ent is not acting beyond its authority . Now the impression is being lef t chat if there is expenditure wi thout the authority of this Hou se that it is illegal. That is incorrect.

SOHE HON . MEMBERS : Oh, oh ! DR . COLLINS : If that were so, there would be no such th i::1g as \•tarrants . Warrants are for the very purpose of making needed expenditures for which this Bo~se has not given the authority . If that •11ere totally illegal, our Financial Administrati on Act should 388

May 13, 1982 Tape No. 176 SD - l DR. COLLINS: be amended to leave out all reference to warrants. So you can made expenditures wilhrJut this House giving the authority. Buthaving done that you then have to go through certain procedures to legitimize, shall we say, the issuance of the warrants and the expenditure of funds that flowed from that warrant. And that is exactly what this government did and they did it in the form that is laid out in the Financial Administration Act. And I do not wish to take up the time of the House unduly but I am going to read the

section of the Financial Administration Act which . lays out what has to be done in circumstances like that. It is

Section 32, subsection (

l) which reads as follows, and this

section is given the title in the Financial Administration Ac~ called 'Refusal to Make Payments', So the Financial Administration Act has so~ething in there where the Comptroller General- this particular act here speaks of the Comptroller but it is the same thing, we have changed the actual title of that very valuable public servant recently to that of Comptroiler General, but the Comptroller in the act is the same person. The act lays out procedures where it was anticipated, when the act came in, that the Comptroller or the Comptroller General may feel it incumbent to refuse to make payment 1 but the act then says what to do, what the government should do. And here is w,hat

Section 32. subsection (

l) says: "If the Comptroller declines to cause an issue of public money out of theConsolidated Revenue Fund on the ground that the money is not justly due or that it is in excess of the authority. granted by the Lieutenant-Governor in Council", that is Cabinet, "or that there is no legislative authority", that is special warrants, "or if he is in disagreement with a deputy head of a d~partment charged with the administration of a particular service as 399

May 13, 1982 Tape No . 176 so - 2 I> IL L'O 1.1 .I NS : Lo Lhc sti.ltc of the unencumbered -----balance of the appropriation authorized for such service,or if the Auditor General objects" - all these points, but you will notice that included in those points was 'lack of legislative authority' - "then upon a report of the case beinq submitted tc the Board", and thi s means the Treasury Board , "the Board shall be the judge of the sufficiency of the objection s and may susta1n them or o=der payment to be made ." AN liON . ME!•1BER : Hea::- , hear . DR .

COLLINS : Now the act just lays out exactly what should be done . And that is \.,.hat \ ... as done in th\s cas0. . NR . r.f.ARY : That is withL~ tre Eiscal year. OR . COLLINS : The government followed prec1sely

Section 32 of the Financial Administration Act. So there is absolutely no question that the government acted fully within its authority,and as it happened the 400

l. May 13, 1982 Tape No. 177 EL -1 DR. COLLINS: Treasury Board, in this instance. in its judgement said that if these funds were not expended, there would be serious harm done to the public good. The public servants would not be paid, social services would not be paid, there would be environment and control measqrcs that would not be taken, health measures would not be taken, educational services would have had to stop and so on, right down the line. All these things would have come to a dead halt. Now it would be totally and utterly irres­ ponsible of government to allow that to happen.

The Act says, how to prevent it from happening and that is what the government did. Now, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition asked for a breakdown of the expenditures under the allocations in the Interim Supply Bill for Mines and Energy • I do not know exactly now how we should handle this ,because there area lot of expenditures under that head. Minister's Office: The tot.al there is $50,700. That will include salaries, su~ p lies, transportation and communications, employee benefits and so on. Executive Support: That will be DH's, ADM's and so on and so forth. That amounts to $89,900.

Administrative Support; That is for the purchase of services and similar things, and it also includes a certain amount voted in other de­ partments that Mines and Energy requires and that comes to - I am sorry , I am a bit slow on this becaus~ I have to add tv.o columns here. It canes to $87,900. So the total - this might be a more useful figure- the total,therefore,for that part, for the executive and support services for that four month period,comes to just over $200,000. 4 0 'j

May 13, 1982 Tape NO. 177 EL - 2 DR . COLLINS: In mineral development the total - well 1 I will have to go through the whole thing I guess - mineral development, administration is $75,000; regional mapping was $550,000) l+ G 2

May 13, 1982 Tap e No. 178 MJ - l DR. J. COLLINS: geo-chemistr y , t he to tal amount there was $262,000; mineral deposits, that was $227,000; environmental geology, that was $188,000; publications and information, there was a certain amount of revenue th ere s0 I will give you the net figure $213,400; core storage - this is where drilling is done and materials are obtained and these had to be stored somewhere ~was $180,000; so the total therefor e for mineral development , that part of the Mines · and Energy Department 1 came to $1,791,200.

Then Mineral Lands Administration, the total there was $7,600; mineral rights was $46,700; quarry materials, $31,800; mines management.;. That is broken under several headingsa Administration, $26,100; engineering analysis, $43,800; mineral policy and project analysis, $58,000- So the total,therefore,for mineral resources management came out to be $2,270,400. The next

section then is Energy Resources Management, My time is running out so perhaps I could give the total for Energy Resources Management. The ' total for En ergy Resou ,·ccs Managementcarne to just over $200,000. It is $133,700 plus $68,9 00- I cannot add quick enough. Then the next

section was Conservation and Renewable Energy Resource Develooment~ Could I - MR. NEARY: I will tell you, I will just respond to the early part of your remarks and then you can come back and finish answering the question. DR. COLLINS: Right. MR. NEARY: I want to get back to the Financial Administration Act, Mr. Chairman; and I want to say that I was shocked and amazed to hear the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) for this Province get up and show his complete ignorance of the Financial Administration Act. His complete ignorance. And the hon. gentleman tried to twist it by saying that the authority for doing something 403

May 13, 1982 Tape 179 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: unlawful was

Section 32 of the Financial Ad~inistration Act. Mr. Chairman, the hon. gentleman and anybody who is experienced in this House knows that that is not the purpose of this

section of the act. The purpose of this

section of the Financial Administration Act is to issue Lieutenant-Governor's Warrants in a fiscal year, within a fiscal year from the 1st of April to March 31st. Once the fiscal year ends, no more money. And the Lieutenant-Governor would have been perfectly within his rights to refuse to sign these warrants - no reflection on His Honour - which he should have done, because warrants were signed without the authority of this Legislature. And the minister would not table the legal opinion. It was not an independent legal opinion. But even the one they had from their own servants, the hon. gentleman refused to table it. There is no way that you can twist this

section of the act, Mr. Chairman, to give the administra­ tion the authority to do something unlawful. Let me repeat again that Lieutenant-Governor's Warrants are not issued for spending after the fiscal year has ended. Lieutenant-Governor's Warrants are only issued within the fiscal year for unforeseen happenings, for unforeseen expenditure, extraordinary expenditure, and the only way ~hat you can spend money without the authority of ~he Legislature is in case of an emergency, like a Third l"'orld War or something like that. That is the only reason.

An earthquake or a flood or a Third World War, that is the only reason you can spend money without the authority of this Legislature. That is why we are here. That is why Par'liarnent exists, Mr. Chairman. So I hope I never hear again from the Minister of Finance of this Province -the man who has 404

May 13, 1982 Tape 179 EC - 2 MR. NEARY : control over the public purse, the man who has it in his hands to collect revenue and spend money on ~ehalf of the people of this Provincc ,ge~s up and tells us ~hat t~e yove rr~ent did nothing unlawful, that they did not need the authori~y of the Legislature to spend $129 mill~cn . !t is time, Mr . Chairman, if the hon . gentleman believes that , it is tiwe either for the Premier to gi ve him the Royal Order of the Boot or he should pass in his resignation . ~ecause . obviously tl'<.' gentleman is co~pletely unfamiliar, deliberately or other­ wise, with the tradition of Parliament, 405 "'

May 13, 1982 Tape No. 180 NM - l MR. NEARY: with the functions of parliament, and with the real reason why parliament exists. And I hope that nobody in the media in this Province - look, Mr. Chairman, 1 am awfully discouraged and disillusioned. you can con-the minister with his straight face, and he is an honest looking fellow, and he soundssincere, and it is easy for him to con people. I remember the day I called a news conference to say that the administration had done some­ thing illegal. The first response was, "Oh," from a newsman, "Oh, they have not done anything illegal because the minister said they got a legal opinion from the Justice Department and under

section 32 :Jf the act they could have done it." I called the gentleman up and I said to him, "What is your authority for saying that my statements are incorrect?" He said, "Because of the legal opinion they got." Because of the legal opinion. What legal opinion? Legal opinion from their own employees. The Comptroller of the Treasury should be the opinion. The editorial writers in this Province should be hopping mad, Mr. Chairman, they should be hopping mad. They should come down on this administration like a ton of brick for carrying out this unlawful act. And they are allowed to get away with it.

They are allowed to get away with it. Mr. Chairman, there is no need for this House to exist at all if that is the way we are going to run this poor, old Province of ours, with its colourful and historic background. Shut her down. Shut her down and let the clique down on the eighth floor run the Province. DR. COLLINS: They should cut down on your time. 406

May 13, 1982 Tape No. 180 NM - 2 M-~. NEARY : I am sure, Mr . Chairman, either the hon . gentleman made that statement with tongue in check, or he made it out o! complete ignorance of the Financial Administration Act ~~d how to run the finances o: this Province , made it out of complet e ignoran ce. And he is able to con a few old news reporters, he is able to con them into saying, "Nell, sure it is all right.'' The fact of the matter is that the only thing that will make it right is this, the only thing t~.:t::. will make it right, Mr. Chairman, is this, that they have forty-four members and we have eight.

If y~u were into a tight situation in this House ,I guar~~tee you it would not be that way . Because with brute force they can ram this bill through the House . They could env.oke closu .re if they wanted to . They can outvote us and that is the only reason 407

May 13, 1982 Tape No .. 181 NM - l MR. NEARY : that that unlawful act will be made lawful, because they will outvote us. That is the only reason, Mr. Chairman. And I hope that is clear in people's minds. It is a no, no. It is not done in any part of the worlde To spend $129 million of tax­ payer money without the elected representatives of the people approving it, authorizing it 1 it is just not done. It is a no, no. And the minister knows it is not done. And the minister knows he is twisting the Financial Administration Act~ If the han, gentleman was doing his job he would table the legal opinion. MR.

CALLAN: It is just as illegal as (inaudible). Just as illegal. MR. NEARY: And the minister can squirm all he wants. The minister can squirm all he wants, Mr.

Chairman, I would suggest,after hearing the remarks from the lips of the hon. gentleman, I would suggest that it is time in this Province­ unless we want to close down, put the sign on the door out there, saying, "Closed", "Gone out of Business", everything is going to be decided on the eighth floor, shut her down, no more double salaries, no more expense allowance, shut her down, decide everything on the eighth floor, go all the way and have a complete dictatorship in this Province, decide everything down on the eighth floor. Mr.

Chairman, did Your Honour ever ask yourself the question why is interim supply brought into the House in the first Place? Why is supplementary supply brought in? Why is a budget brought into the House, Mr. Chairman? Why? Why is it necessary to bring interim supply in? Why? Why, Mr. Chairman? Because the government, the administration have no authority after the fiscal year ends to spend money. L1 G 8

May 13 , 1982 Tape No . 181 Nr.l - 2 MR . NEARY: That is why . That is the principle of interim supply . And this foolish nonsense about the Premier's right to call an election overrides everything else, oh, Mr. Chairman, who is going to swallow that? Who is going to S\llallow that argument? The Premier's right to call an election overrides everthing else. MR . DAWE: He is representing the people of Newfoundland. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR . LUSH : There is the arrogance, boy. There is the arrogance again . MR. NEAR Y: Listen to the arrogance . But anyway , Mr .

Chairman, I wanted to make that point in the event that some of these shiny­ nosed , innocent lookinq little new members of the House iook up to the Minister of Finance (Dr . Collins) and to the administration and they say- wild-eyed and shiny-nosed- look at the ~linister of Fina:1ce and say, "Well the Ninister of Finance must know what he is doing. 4li9

May 13,1982 Tape No. 182 ah-1 MR. NEARY: He is Minister of Finance (Dr. CollinsJ1 he must know what he is doing. The hon. gentleman does not know what he is doing. All he is doing is conn1ng this House, members on that side of the House, and he is conning some members of the media into thinking that it is legal. It is an non­ ~awful act. And now I will take my seat, Mr. Chairman, and allow the hon. gentleman to give us the specific information. But I have to tell the hon. gentleman that 1f he keeps it up , if he wants to be here until the midd~e of next week on interim supply,that is perfectly okay with us. MR.

CHAIRMAN (Aylward): The hon. Minister of Development. MR.. MORGAN: MR. WINDSOR: You are havino 0reat trouble there. There 1s not much room on this side of the House, Mr. Chairman, for somebody as big as me. I will tell you, we are really jammed in here. I wish we had as much room as hon. gentlemen over there. MR. YOUNG: SOME HON.MEMBERS: MR. WINDSOR: We have not got standing room. Oh, oh! I do not know about my belt, Mr. Chairman, but my shoes are much to big for han. gentlemen opposite, I can guarantee you that. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WINDSOR: Mr.

Chairman, I find it really amazing some of the comments coming from hon. gentlemen ( opposite and what they really find important. You know, it lS a sad testimony when we stand here w1th seventy-five hours allocated for studying the Budget of this government, and the estimates of this Budget and hon. gentlemen are taking up a great deal of time with rhetoric, ta~king about things that are very generally related , I suppose. But I find it amazing, some of the questions and some of the criticism that is pointed at this government over 41 n

May 13,1982 Tape No. 182 ah-2 MR. WINDSOR: a year, tnat non. gentlemen opposite would not be more interested in getting on with the business of this House and getting down to some of tne deta1ls of the budget when it comes down. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Chairman, you know, as hon. gentlemen know,the time that is being spent here now on interim supply is coming from 'the time that is allocated to the budqet.

They will have their opportunity in committees to speak to the budqet, they will have opportunities to deal with the issues and the new programmes and initiatives that will be announced by the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) in his budqet. So I would . suggest that that could be a much more useful, a much more valuable use of the House's time than some of the rhetoric that we are hearing from hon. gentlemen opposite. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WINDSOR: The Leader of the Opposition, Mr.

Speaker, wanted to talk about Mines and Energy and some of the energy developments that are being proposed by government. And he is talking about the interim supply , the tremendous amount of money here. This is obviously, Mr.

Chairman - the hon. gentleman, I do not know if he has looked at the details of the Interim Supply Bill,but the Interim Supply Bill basically provides'enough money for the ongoinq programmes of the Department of Mines and Energy,and those programmes include a whole host of things 1 the control and management of the mineral resources of this Province and the hydro resources of this Province 1 which are absolutely essential. And some of the programmes that are here, 4

Mily 13, 1982 Tape No. 183 so - 1 MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Chairman, I am sure the hon. gentleman opposite probably has not heard about them.But there are numerous programmes in renewable energy, conservation of energy, mineral identification, mapping of mineral resources in this Province and identifying some of the resources that are available, something useful and productive, Mr.Chairman, in trying to identify opportunities for development of the resources of this Province which, of course, is in the Department of Development for which my main responsibility is one of the chief objects of that clepn.rtmcnt.

And I arri very pleased to have the opportunity to have some input into the work of the Department of Mines and Energy. Mr. Chairman, hon. gentlemen have talked about some of the power potentials of our Province, and all. Have they every stopped to think that the potential of the Lower Churchill, and we are talking about in here as well some of thP. ~oney that we are spending in trying to - not identify it because we have already identified that potential - but some of the money that we are spending in trying to develop that particular potential, And they sit there and they criticize same of the smaller points.

I would like to hear what their opinion is, Hr. Chairman, on the fact that the Lower Churchill is not yet under development. I would like to know how they can sit there opposite and support a Party in Ottawa that has not yet come forward with it, that has not given us an opportunity to develop that potential. And they talk about oil and gas. Well 1 I would like to talk about hydro power and the potential of the Lower Churchill. Do they know, Mr. Chairman, opposite,that the Lower Churchill has a potential to generate some 2,300 megawatts of power? 2,300 megawatts of power.

And do you know what that is in terms of oil and gas, Mr. Chairman? Do you know what that is equivalent to? The energy equivalent of 75,000 barrels of oil per day 1 forever. A renewable resource 4i2

Nay 13, 1982 ·rape No. 183 SlJ - 2 MR. WINDSOR: versus a non-renelvable resource offshore - 75,000 barrels of oil per day , forever . That is a phenomenal resource, !lll.r. Chairman, . •~hich has not yet been developed . Well , 1·1hat does that mean to Canada'? 7\nd ,.,holt does it mean to the Province?

The fact of the matter is, if you realize that t be Government of Canada subsidizes o i l that is imported i~to canada from mid-East countries or whatever, putting aside for a moment the fact that that the=efore gives contro l over energy in this Province to ~ foreign nation, or the cost of energy, putting that aside , realizing that we are subsidizing every barrel of oil that comes into Canada to the amount of t•.Yenty dollars per bn lL'< ~ L t hat 75 , 000 barrels or ,the equivalent of 75,000 means that Canada is sending out of Canada $1 . 5 million a day every day that the Lm.,rer Churchill is not developed.

Not.,, Mr . Chairman, that is a national disgrace . And that resour ce, in fact , should be developed not only for Net.,foundland hut for Canaga . It is in the national interest . And if the federal government wants to talk about being energy self­ sufficient , tvell let us talk about the Lower Churchill and let us talk about gettting that developed . And in the short-term let us 4 i 3

May 13, 1982 Tape No. 184 MJ - 1 MR. N. WINDSOR; create the 2,000 or 3,000 jobs that would be created ~here and let us spend the $5 billion or $6 billion that would need to be spent on construction activity in this Province and elsewhere in Canada in order to develop that particular resource potential and let us get moving with the job if they want to be energy self-sufficient by 1990 or 1995.

Well let us move on with it, and let us have the opportunity to displace the thermal generated power at Holyroodr Let us stop buying oil and importing oil into Canada and into Newfoundland to qenerate electricity when we have the potential to generate it ·in Labrador. Let us displace those 4 50 megawatts and let us have the energy available - MR. TULK; MR. WINDSOR: MR. TULK: MR. vliNDSOR: MR. HISCOCK: MR. WINDSOR: MR. HISCOCK: MR. WINDSOR: Well do it. Care on. Just do it. I would love to. You would love to? Yes. Do it. Grand. The federal governrrent gave $200 million. No problem, Mr. Chairman , no problem.

If the hon. gentleman opposite were sitting in Ottawa I can tell ~rom their comments that they would gladly give us a power corridor through Quebec, they would gladly give us the opportunity to sell that power, they would gladly finance the CFLCo and the Lower Churchill Development so that we could move ahead. They would gladly help us with the aluminum smelter, Mr. Chairman, which will be one of the major energy intensive industries that we are trying to attract to this Province7 having done an exhaustive study, Mr.

Chairman, of the opportunities to utilize some of this energy potential in our Province. -Because I1 for one, do not believe that we should 4 l it

May 13, 1982 Tape No. 184 MJ - 2 MR. N. WINDSOR: be exporting raw m?tterials. When 1 see electricity going out of our Province, I see that as a raw material that is going out. I would like to see some of the energy potential used in the Province. If you want tc use it - you want tc export some of it in thE short term so that you have the recall rights to meet domestic load growth as it becomes necessary. In the short term you want to be able to export some of that power and,as I said,you want to be able to use some of that eneryy for energy intensive industries.

Our exhaustive s-tudies showed very clearly that the aluminum industry has the greatest potential in this Province for developing energy intensive industry. And we have been actively pursuing that. We put together in conj uction with the Deparbtent of Developrent and New:Emmdland and Labrador Hydro a marketing brochure and a marketing effort worldwide and talked to all of the aluminum companies worldwide that we thought may have some interest in establishing a smelter in our Province.

The result of that was that no less than some eighteen companies, I think it was, had showed some interest to varying degrees in establishing and industry here in our Province and,in fact,many of them have done a great deal of investigation,including detailed engineering work.

The ultimate result of that 1 of course 1 was that at the moment the Anaconda Aluminum company in conjunction with the government are undertaking and are now carrying out a $500,000 study of the aluminum industry potential in Labrador and on the \-lestern side of the Province to decide, first of all, if it is feasible tc.•chnlc.:J.Lly and economically and, secondly, just exactly Where such an industry should best be located. MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr. ,R. Aylward}: One minute left. MR. WINDSOR: One minute. It is amazing 4i5

May 13, 1982, Tape 185, Page l -- apb MR. WINDSOR: how time flies, Mr. Chairman, when you are enjoying yourself. Well, let me say, Mr.

Chairman, that we have indeed identified an opportunity there now, and before the year is out we should know exactly whether or not it is feasible to establish an aluminum smelter so that we can use some of that energy in the Province, so that we can see another major project take place, a $1 billion construction project, so that we can create some 3,000 man years of work during construction, so that we can create some 1,500 permanent jobs in the Province, so that we can use some of the natural resource that is now being exported through Quebec and that we can use it here in our Province to create further value added and employment for our people.

And I will sit down for a moment and listen to some more rhetoric. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: !1r. Chairman, on a point of order. MR. CHAIRMAN (MCNICHOLAS) : of the Op?osition. MR. NEARY: A point of order, the hon. Leader The Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) is piloting the Interim Supply Bill through the House and my colleague wants to ask some questions, some specific questions of the minister. Is it possible to get him back in his seat so we can proceed with the work of the House? MR. WINDSOR: Mr.

Chairman, if the questions come forth we will be sure to answer them, if there is anything to answer. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, it is only right and proper that the minister who is piloting the Interim Supply Bill should be in his seat. I am sure my colleague has a number of questions to direct to the Minister of Finance(Dr. Collins), not to the- 416

May 13, 1982, Tape 185, Page 2 -- apb MR. HODDER: I have questions for the Minister of Finance. MR. NEARY: That is right. Get him back in his seat. MR. CHAIRMAN(McNicholas): I do not know if the Leader of the Opposition(Mr. Neary) is trying to get a rise out of me because it is my first afternoon in the Chair, but I am sure if the hon, minister wants to come back he will do so. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I am not trying to get a rise out of Your Honour. As a matter of fact, I welcome Your Honour to the Chair for the first time, and I - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

NEARY: - know that Your Honour is going to do a good job, but, Mr. Chairman, we want to ask the Minister of Finance{Dr. Collins) questions. The hon. gentleman has these two books on his desk with the information inside the covers . . Why do we not just rise the Committee for ten or fifteen minutes so that we can find the Minister of Finance? MR. WINDSOR: If the hon.gentleman will not ask his questions, he should sit down. MR. NEARY: We have all kinds of questions for the Minister of Finance. MR. WINDSOR: Well, put them forward and wait for us to answer them. MR. HODDER: Well, ask him some questions.

See if he can answer the question on the environment here: Where is the one million-and-something for the - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Chairman, let me as:< the hon. gentleman a question, he is so cocky over there. Could he tell us what the amount - there is 4 i 7

May 13 , 19 82, Tape 185, Page 3 -- apb MR . NEARY : an amount here for the Justice Department of $20 million~ Could the hen . gentleman give us a breakdown of that? ~m . WINDSOR : Sic down and we will atta~pt it . HR. NEARY : breakdown . !>IR . \'l!NDSOR : Yes, okay . Give us a Mr. Chairman, if the hon . gentleman wants to make his speech, ~hen we w~ll take our oppo~tunity to - MR . HODDER : Mr . Chairman, ~hat is ridiculou s. MR . NEARY : Well, could the hon. gentleman giv e us a breakdown of Culture, Recreation un<.l Youth? SOME BON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! HR .

NEARY : Yes, give us a b=eak- down of \o~hat cilis - $14 million, could we have a breakdown of ~hat? DR . COLLINS : ~tr. Chai=man. l•IR . )lEARY : Oh, 1o~ell, we have the minister back in his sea~. Okay. ~R. LUSH : It is a total breakdo~m DY the minister. Sm1E HON. t'.EMBERS : Hea r, hear! 4icl

May 13, 1982 Tape 186 EC - l SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. HISCOCK: I am walting for the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins). It was the day before yesterday I asked the Minister of Finance specific questions, and the questions were directed towards the Department of Education, which was spending $165 million. There were also questions geared towards the Department of Public Works, $25 million. I asked the minister at that time if he could provide me with a detailed breakdown of what was happening in those departments, how much capital construction was going on in those departments.

The minister said at that time to gc through the sub-heads of the budget and I would basically get them and ongoing programmes for each year. This is quite true. But as the minister has pointed out, this is one-third of our actual budget and one of the reasons why it is one-third of our actual budget is because of the Capital Works projects in it. And I was specifically asking the minister ,with regards to Public Works and the Department of Education and the Department of Municipal Affairs, how much of this was actually going into Capital Works projects - particularly in Municipal Affairs and Public Works.

But to get into a little more specific details, and I would like for the minister to provide me with them, I told him he could provide them in writing. I also said that I was quite ready to wait three or four days for them.But with regard to that, I have some specific questions. Could the Minister of Finance tell us how much the government is going to be spending on buying cars and trucks and other vehicles for the government this year? Could the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs. Newhook) also tell us how much 4i9

May 13, 1982 Tape No . 186 EC - 2 MR . HISCOCK : is going to be spent on snow- clearing equip:nent, etc ., and , also, with regard to the part of Publi c Works where they buy cheir government supplies? Could the minister inform this House how much it is co sting ~is government for revovation of the military museum in the ll!urray Premises? Ho1~ much is it actually costing to renovate the military :n~seum i~ ~he Murray Premises? Also, how much ren~ are \ole paying ::.here? This has been onqoing since 1979 .

We have had the ll~h Floor vacated because of the museum moving and i1: is going to be turned into a conference centre. Could the minis~er in­ form us when \ole can expect this conference centre to be finished? 4 2 r'

May 13, 1982 Tape No . 187 NM- 1 :4R . HI SCOCK : Bow much is it costing? Also, ~othat is it going to be used for? Who i s going to be using that co.'lfe r ence c.ent.re? With regards to the Department of Public Works, woulc the rr:in"!.ster inform us how much i s being allocated for the cor.str~ct io n of the new Confederation Building that \oas brou gh t u9 during last year ' s estimates, if then~ is any money alloccJtNl for p l~nni.nq, i.f t!wr.c i~ .1nv monp\· allocated for engineering for the new Confederation Bui hi Ln<j'.' 'MR . HODDER: A<]reed. , Agr~ed. MR .

HISCOCK : Also , if the mini s ter cou ld provide us \<l'i t h information, are there any other ne \o~ buildings being constructed around thi s Province u.nder the Department of Public Works , ar.d, if so , which one s? With regard to other things, Mr .

Cha irmru'l , coul d the ~tinister of Finance a lso tell us how much t he IJepart.munt of Public Norks spent on the frami ng and buyin g of pictures by Rostotsk i, one of the leading photographers in this Province , buying pictures of the Premier to put in the Department of Fi sheries, for ex ample , the Department of Labour and various others . \'lith reqard to Municipal Affairs, could the minister inform this House! how much is bein g s;>ent on new sixty/ forty cost shar ing prog rammes be t 1·1een the Department of Municipal Affairs and other councils? MR .

LUSH: I am going u.p to the conference cen tre now to check it out . MR . HISCOCK : And, also, "lith regard to Municipal Affairs, coul d he infortn us hovt many guaranteed 4 2 ·1 , ~

May 13, 1982 Tape No . 187 Nl-1 - 2 MR . HISCOCK : loans are going to be supplied in t.his interim supp1y?Of something like $28 million, how much of this is going co be guaranteed loans to Municipal Affairs, councils? Also 1 with regard to Municipal Affairs,could the minister inform this House of any money thac is going to be spent vii th reqard to engineering ,in co-operation wi~~ the City Co uncil? With che construction of a new Convent ion Centre, the possibility of having this, is the Jepa~tment of Municipal Affairs going to share in this cosc sharing programme?

With regard to this de part- ment, I think it would be a little easier and it would save my time and save the House's time and save the minister's time if we would just go through the various departments, Pub li c \vorks and Municipal Affairs, an d give 422

May 13, 1982, Ta pe 188, Page 1 ~- apb MR. HISCOCK: the general breakdown. That way, I think, it would save time, unless it is top secret. If it is top secret, then obviously it is not going to be provided at all. I am concerned about the debt, how much debt the Province has with regard to debts of our town councils and our community councils. How much of that is outstanding? How much of that is missing? The Department of Municipal Affairs has charged a surcharge of 15 per cent on outstanding debts. Could tho Minister of Finance(Dr.

Collins) inform us how much of this $28 million is expected to be spent on the administration of this, to try to recover the 15 per cent surcharge that has been put on? I believe, Mr. Chairman, these are a few of the questions, and if we get the answers to these questions, I, for myself, will approve the interim supply, being the critic for those two departments. DR. COLLINS: MR. CHAIRMAN(McNicholas): of Finance. DR, COLLINS: Mr. Chairman. The han. the Minister Mr. Chairman, many of the questions that the hon. the member for Eagle River (Mr.

Hiscock) has asked, I put ·it to him that they are really not appropriate for the matter before the Committee at the present time. The matter before the - MR. NEARY: say so? DR. COLLINS: MR. NEARY: Then why did you not No, let me explain now. Six hundred and seventy five million dollars in Interim Supplies. DR. COLLINS: Just let me explain now. 423

May 13, 1982, Tape 188, Page 2 -- apb DR. COLLINS: What is before the Committee now are the expenditures for the four month period from the beginning of April to the end of July, that are included under the Interim Supply Bill. Now, the bon. member, for instance, asked how much was spent on photography~ He mentioned the firm, I believe. That really is information that is in the public accounts. It is not in the Interim Supply Bill. There is no expenditure for photography in the Interim Supply Bill.

We are not going to spend, to my knowledge anyway, unless I can, perhaps, dig through and I might find out someone who is going to get a picture of Sigpal Hill or something to put in his office. That might be in there somewhere, or something like that. But the expenditures on photography that the han. member is asking for is going to be in the public accounts which will be tabled in this House at some point in time. It is not going to be in the Interim Supply Bill. Similarly he asked what is going to be the expenditure, say, on the new Confederation Building.

In the Interim Supply Bill there is going to be no expenditure. Now when the main estimates are come down, there will be an amount in there that will have to do with planning and probably some engineering studies and that sort of thing. But they will not be during the interim supply period, they will be after the end of July and they will be in the main estimates. MR. NEARY: those books you have there? DR. COLLINS : did ask me though what are the 4 21f What have you got in The hon. the member

May 13, 1982 Tape 189 PK - 1 DR. COLLINS: details in Public Works and Municipal Affairs. You know, I have all of that information here. And I have already given it to the hon. Leader of the Opposition in regard to Mines and Energy. I had not quite completed it - MR. NEARY: How al:out Housing? DR. COLLINS: - I got about two-thirds of the way through. I am quite willing to go back to that. The hon. Minister of Mines (~'lr. Windsor) , I think, did carry on and perhaps gave out some information. MR. NEARY: All he did was just 0et up and scoff at us. DR.

COLJ[;INS : But perhaps before going back to that I should answer the hon. member for Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock) who was the last one to speak: And in Public Works,for instance,in the minister's office for this interim supply period, a four month period, there is ar expenditure allocated of $36,200; that includes salaries, transportation and communications, supplies and so on. And it is just the amounts that would ordinarily be expended during such period. MR. YOUNG: Money well spent. DR. COLLINS: In qcncral administration - MR. YOUNG: Honey to pay light bills and telephone bills. DR.

COLLINS: - executive support, a part of general administration,there will be a total expenditure of $82,000 which again will cover salaries for the deputy minister, for instance, the assistant deputy minister and so on; for purchase of services for executive offices and for transportation and communications, such payment of telephones, and necessary travel by the executive officers of the department. Then for administrative support there is a total there of $371,700. Again that is for salaries 1 l12 5

May 13, 1982 Tap·e 189 PK -2 D.R. COLLINS: for supplies, for professional services, for purchase of services, and for communication and transportation. so the total for ~eneral administration -I am sorry1 ::he total for executive and support services comes out to be ~424,500. Then tile next one is techn.ical service for building and supplies. Onder planning and support we have an expenditure for design purposes of just over $84,000; for tendering and contracts, \olhich is an ongoing activity in t:he Department of Public lvorks, t-Ie have a.11 expenclit·ure there of $29,500.

Then the next heading is building operation. That is quite a large one,obviously. MR. YOUNG: That is all the buildings. DR. COLLINS: I will see if I can get a total figure on that one. 426

May 13, 1982 Tape No. 190 II3-l MR. YOUNG: Yes, 522 Buildings. DR. COLLINS: I will come across a total figure so I will have to go through it. Under administration in that

section there is $132,000 for cleaning services, for salaries and purchase of services, contracts and so on. The total there will be $1,825,000 for a four month period. W~ter supplies - you use an awful lot of water in the department of Public Works .• MR. YOUNG: Yes,to keep the place clean. DR. COLLINS: Water supplies will be $48,000. Electrical utilities will be $800,000. That is electrical utilities cost for all government buildings. Heating supplies, the total amount there is another $800,000 for that four month period. Telephones will be - MR. YOUNG: That is shocking. DR. COLLINS: Yes.

Telephones will be $1,500,000 for four months. Snow removal for the four month period in the Public Works and Services Department, $100,000. Garbage removal - qarbaqe removal? MR. YOUNG:. Yes, that is right, Sir, they took that out of the Opposition members' offices. DR. COLLINS: $150,000 worth of garbage was removed in the four month period. Security, there is $825,000. Elevator control; $90,000 spent on elevator control. Fire protection~ $15,000 spent on fire protection. Mechanical and electrical control, $100,000. So here is the total I was looking for earlier.

The total for building operations for a four month period, the operating of all government buildings,is $6,402,000• Over $6 million to operate government buildings for a four month period. That is the operation of the buildings. 427

May 13 , 1982 Tape No . 190 IB -2 DR . COI.I:.INS : Now we get on to the maintenance, this is repairs and so on . In the administration

section - there is a large number of employees there of course - there is $1 .5 million approximately . Programme maintenance, the amount there is over $2 million . So the total for building maintenance, all government buildings, comes to over $6 million . leases - Then leased accommodations, in I must see i£ I got a total f1gure on that - yes, total for leased accommodations is $5,492,500 . These are buildings and offices leased in buildings outside those buildings owned by government . Construction, this is administration and project management, 42a

May. 13, 1982 Tape No. 191 MJ - l DR. J. COLLINS: $225,000; improvements to land and property, the total there is $410,000; so the total for provincial buildings and grounds - the figure I cannot make out there, but it is about $17 million,the total for Provincial buildi nqs and qrounds. Government purchasinq a,1P-ncy, the total amount there is $854,800. So I can go on if I wish, I do not know if this information - MR. HISCOCK: The Miiitary Huseum, how much are you paying there? DR. COLLINS: Pardon. MR. HODDER : The Military Museum, how much are you payirig there? DR.

COLLINS: The Military Museum is in a rented premises so that will be included in the rental I gave you. I do not have that identified here, but I certainly can get it for the hon. member. I can ask som~one in my department. MR. HODDER: DR. COLLINS: MR. HODDER: is it in the Murray Premises? DR. COLLINS: MR. HODDER: Can you get it now? I can ~et it now. Where is the Military Museum now, It is in the Murray Premises. It is there? People can go down and see it? I can go down and see it if I want to see it now? DR. COLLINS: I have never been in there, I must admit. I presume you can.

I am sorry I have never been there myself, but I do not see any reason why you cannot. MR. HODDER: DR. COLLINS: not know. MR. HODDER: I would hope that you would. But perhaps it is not open,I do Can the Minister of Public Works (Mr. H. Young) tell us whether we can go down and see it this 429

,. .,. May 13 , 1982 !1R. J . llODDER : MR. H. YOUNG : .. now and take you down . DR . COLLINS : MR . BODDER : MR . YOUNG : a long time ago . Tape No . 191 MJ - 2 ..... evening? lve will have to close the House I tninx my tL~e has expired . ~nen was it placed there? We relocated it on lvater Street MR . s. NEARY : Mr . Chairman, in co~~ection with the Military Museum - I hope the Minister of Finance does not run away . DR . COLLINS : ~m . NEAHY : No, I can tear you from here . Tn connPcLion with lne M1litury Museum , my understanding, Mr .

Cha1rman, 1s that the Mil1tary Museum which used to occupy the tenth floor of Confederation Building - MR . HODD,t;R : The eleventh. The el eventh . MR . NEARY : - the eleventh floor o~ Confederation Bu1ld1ng was shut down in 19/9, over three years ago, and the histor1c objects and the art1facts \t7ere put in storage . Is that correct? Who is responsible for museums, by the way? Tney were put in storage ana space was rented in the Murray Premises , down on the Waterfront, is that correct? MR . SIMNS : MR . '1'ULK: Mr . Min1.ster . MR . NEARY : I \o~ill just have to ta ke note of it .

You could add something there, Nell, space was rented in the Murray Premises down on the tvaterfront 1n 1979, and the taxpayers 430

May 13, 1982 Tape No. 192 IU\. - 1 MR. S. NEARY: of this Province have been paying rent for that space ever since. Is that correct? MR. SIMMS: I am sorry. MR. S. NEARY: I presume we are paying our rent down there,are we? MR. H. YOUNG: We pay every cent I can guarantee you that . MR. S. NEARY: .1\nd the Minister of T'ubl i_c t-~Jot·l\s (Mr. Young) just confirmed that we are paying every cent. Every cent rent due to the Murray Premises has been paid. MR. H. YOUNG: We are just paying what rent vle owe. MR. S. NEARY: And so,Mr.

Chairman, it has now been established that we are paying rent and we have been paying rent since 1979 to the owners of the Murray Premises for housing the Military Museum. MR. HODDER: But the museu~ has not heen there, it was in storage as you just confirmed'Haig'. MR. S. NEARY: Now, the question my colleague asked the minister is to tell us if it is now possible to visit that Military Museum. Can students from schools around Newfoundland, can people visiting from other provinces, can the people out there in the outside world, can members of this House now go down and visit that Military Museum?

We have been paying rent since 1979.and I would think it is pretty qood rent- MR. WARREN: Who owns that? Who runs that? MR. S. NEARY: -down at the Murray Premises, so I would like to know if it is open now to the public. Before we pass this are we going to qet the answers? MR. HODDER: Is it open to the public? To start questioning. MR. S. NEARY ·: Is it open co the public? Is there anybody on that side of the House who can tell us if the Military Museum is open to the puLlic,down in the Murray Premises? MR. YOUNG: No, no. It is not open yet. 431

May 13 , 198 2 MR . NE1\RY : is it not open? 1\N liON . ~1EHBER : s.omchody help you . MR . NEARY : Tape No . 19 2 RA -2 It is not ope."l yet . \vell, why 'Stev e' sit dm-m and let Well, is there anybody on that side of the House who can answer che ques~ion? The gover~­ ment is asking for $675 million in interim supply and they cannot anS\-Ier a simple question as to whether the Military :-!useum, \-Thich was moved almost four years ago from the 11th floor of Confederaci on n~ilding down to the t-~urray Premises, they cannot even .:ell us if it is open yet . MR. YOUNG : It is not open .

MR . ~~ARY : It is not open? Alright I will take the .Mini ster of Public \vorks' (Mr . Young) word . MR . CHAIR~N (AYLWARD) : If I could interrupt the hon . mcnili~r ior one moment . It bciny 5 o'clock, 1 have to inform the Rou se that there are no items for debate at 5:30 . The bon . the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY : Now I -cake the ~linister of Public Norks ' \vord for it that the :nuseum is r.ot open. NO\oJ, Ciln the minister tell us why it is :lOt open? MR . YOUNG: MR. HODDER: this has been four years . . MR . N!::ARY : The co~tract is not finished .

You mean the contractor - but Can anybody tell us \o~hy it 432

May 13, 1982 Tape No. 193 NM - l MR. NEARY: is not open~ Can anybody over on that side tell us if public tenders were called? MR. HODDER: MR. NEARY: Were you tied up in that too? Were public tenders called for that spacedown in the Murray Premises? And can anybody tell us if the Premier personally intervened on behalf of his buddy, his friend who owns the Murray Premises? SOME HON. MEMBERS : No. No. MR. NEARY: No? MR. HODDER: No? MR. NEARY: Mr.

Clark asked the same question of the Prime Minister in Ottawa yesterday about an architect who was hired by the Government of Canada to build a building in Washington, so if it is all right for Mr. Joe Clark to ask the question, who is the Tory Leader in Canada, I guess it is all right for me to ask it. MR. ~"A.RREN: :MR. BAIRD: MR. NEARY: MR. BAIRD; Joe Clark MR. WARREN: is. Sure. Sure. You are not half the man Joe Clark is. I beg your pardon? You are not half the man Thank God for that. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, are we going to be able to get any information on this - MR. CALLAN; twice the man. MR.

NEARY: He is not half the man, he is - on this military museum? How much has it cost for renovations on it so far? And why is it not open? Can the hon. gentleman tell us? MR. CALLAN; Joe who? 433

May 13, 1982 Tape No. 193 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: I will take my seat if the hon. gentleman will give us the information. Somebody over there give us some information. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) and others have asked a large number of questions about Murray Premises. I have to state that we- for the purpose of this Committee 1we are on the Interim Supply Bill~ So the information that I am getting in terms of dollars is,how much is in this Interim Supply Bill in regard t0 the Murray Premises?

It would be largely in terms of rental and so on. I have one of my officials now going to get the exact dollars. There are a large number of other questions which are not appropriate to the Interim Supply Bill. They are asking, you know, who did what and so on and so forth. That has got nothing to do with the Interim Supply Bill. But I will say this about the Murray Premises, that is one of the best restored buildings in Eastern Canada - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! DR. COLLINS: - and it is a credit to this city, it is a credit to this Province, it is something that all the visitors to St. John's visit.

All the people who come to this part of the Province on tours, on visitations, on visits to their relatives and so on, they will go to Cabot Tower, they will possibly go out to Bowring Park or whatever, and then they will go down to the Murray Premises. And I think that