1973 Legislative Session: 2nd Session, 30th Parliament

HANSARD

The following electronic version is for informational purposes

only.

The printed version remains the official version.

Official Report of

DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

(Hansard)

WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 14, 1973

Afternoon Sitting

[ Page 423 ]

CONTENTS

Routine proceedings

An Act to Amend the Constitutional Questions Determination

Act (Bill No. 2) Hon. Mr. Macdonald. Introduction and first reading — 423

An Act to Amend the Securities Act, 1967 (Bill No. 18). Hon. Mr. Macdonald,

Introduction and first reading — 423

Budget debate (continued)

Hon. Mrs. Dailly — 423

Mrs. Webster — 430

Mr. Steves — 435

Mr. G.H. Anderson — 439

Ms. Young I — 444

Motions No. 3 (Mr. Smith). Request for correspondence on B.C. port facilities

to be filed with the House — 447

No. 5 (Mr. Williams). Establishment of British Columbia medical care centre

for children in Vietnam — 448

Reports Annual return (1972) under

section 53 of the Administration Act — 455

The House met at 2 p.m.

Prayers.

MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Education.

HON. E.E. DAILLY (Minister of Education): I would like the

House to join with me in welcoming to the galleries today a

very large group of ladies and men from the Parent-Teacher

Associations of British Columbia. They have come from all over

the province and we're delighted. This is their sixth annual

visit to the Legislature and I hope you'll join with me in

welcoming them.

MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Member for North Okanagan.

MRS. P.J. JORDAN (North Okanagan): Mr. Speaker, it may have

passed by your steely heart, but today is Valentine's Day.

While I don't have the privilege of previous years of thanking

the Premier for a bouquet, I would like to thank the Members

for this. It says, "Won't you be our valentine, Pat?" and it's

from "the hordes." I thank you very much.

MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. First Member for

Vancouver-Burrard.

MS. R. BROWN (Vancouver-Burrard): Thank you, Mr. Speaker,

but I'm really still the Second Member.

MR. SPEAKER: Oh, I'm sorry. We've got to have a new system

of designating Members. I can't keep up.

MS. BROWN: I would like the House to join me in welcoming a

group of social studies students from Kitsilano high school who

are studying government. I gather they have read it in the

books and now they would like to see it in action. They are

accompanied by their teacher, Mr. Ippen.

MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Agriculture.

HON. D.D. STUPICH (Minister of Agriculture): Mr. Speaker, as

well as PTA day, it's student day. Among the students, there's

a group from Nanaimo sponsored by Crown Zellerbach, represented

by Bob Porter, and their teacher, Ted Little. I'd like the

House to join with me in welcoming them.

MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Education.

HON. MRS. DAILLY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to welcome to the House

also — it is students day indeed — a group of grade 11 and 12 students from

Burnaby North Secondary School.

MR. SPEAKER: If it isn't chauvinistic of me, I'd like all

the ladies in the House to be my valentine. (Laughter).

Interjections by some Hon. Members.

Introduction of bills.

AN ACT TO AMEND

THE CONSTITUTIONAL QUESTIONS

DETERMINATION ACT

Hon. Mr. Macdonald moves introduction and first reading of

Bill No. 2 intituled

An Act to Amend the Constitutional

Questions Determination Act .

Motion approved.

Bill No. 2 read a first time and ordered to be placed on

orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the

House after today.

AN ACT TO AMEND

THE SECURITIES ACT, 1967

Hon. Mr. Macdonald moves introduction and first reading of

Bill No. 18 intituled

An Act to Amend the Securities Act,

1967 .

Motion approved.

Bill No. 18 read a first time and ordered to be placed on

orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the

House after today.

Orders of the day .

ON THE BUDGET

MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Education.

HON. E.E. DAILLY (Minister of Education): Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. First of all, I've already had my share of welcoming

people but I did want to take this occasion to also welcome to

the gallery someone who sat through my first maiden speech and

helped me get through the nervous experience, and is here today

to help me get through my first full speech as Minister — my

husband, who is up in the gallery.

I'm also very pleased to have the chance to thank the

Premier, as I've always had before in the past when I was on

the other side, for his little valentine gifts to us. I hope he

appreciates the one he got — the one you received also. I know

you did. It also gives me a chance to wish everyone happy

Valentine's Day.

[ Page 424 ]

Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear.

HON. MRS. DAILLY: Mr. Speaker, I'm very proud to take my

place in this debate because it gives me the opportunity for

the first time to stand up and take

part in a budget debate in

which the budget has been produced by the first democratic

socialist Government in British Columbia.

I also feel that as Minister of Education it is incumbent

upon me to speak primarily and chiefly today on my department

because I do feel that all new Ministers have a responsibility

to talk to the House in their first major speech on what's

going on in their department, what the major directions are,

what the Minister's own personal thoughts and ideas are on

those directions, and what has taken place.

I don't intend, in this particular discussion and debate

today, to elaborate at this time on the rationale for the

educational budget expenditures. This will be done when the

educational estimates come up.

I have stated before assuming office that, in my opinion, a

philosophy and direction for education must always take

priority before you enunciate a financial policy. May I say

that this, I believe, was one of the greatest errors and

weaknesses of the former government. As far as education goes,

they produced the educational policies in exactly the reverse

manner. The financial aspects were the ones which apparently

set the educational philosophy.

The portfolio of Minister of Education which I have assumed

must certainly be one of the most challenging and the most

all-embracing portfolios in our whole government. It's

challenging because, of course, education deals primarily and

firstly with people, and people of all ages. I think that this

is one of the most important things that I, as Minister, and

those who are working with me to create new policies for

education, must always remember. We must always remember that

it is the child, the student and the adult involved in the

educational process who must always come first and must be

given our fullest consideration at all times.

For you know, Mr. Speaker, I have found since assuming

office in such a large department, with the highest provincial

expenditure of any department of the whole government, that

there is a tendency to become bogged down in organization and

structure.

This, I believe, has been a great failing of education in

the past because the children of our province have been made to

fit the structure, instead of the structure serving the child's

needs.

There are some very exciting and very relevant educational

experiences going on right now in the classrooms of our

province. Right at this moment, as we all sit here, there are

some very, very fascinating, exciting experiments going on.

There are teachers out there who are doing wonderful things

with the students and students are becoming really involved in

the learning process. But it is unfortunately in my opinion,

more the exception than the rule. Therefore I feel that as

Minister it is my responsibility and one of my greatest

challenges to try and provide for all those out there who are

consumers of the educational process — a really meaningful

learning experience — for all our citizens. What we surely want

to encourage for all citizens, young and old, is a great thirst

and a continuing thirst for education.

Although of course there are basic subject matters which

must be taught and provided for in our school system — we all

agree upon that I know — I for one feel very strongly that the

school also has the responsibility to provide an environment

which will produce citizens who can go out into this world with

the ability to adapt — with the ability to adapt to a very

exciting but sometimes very frightening world. A world which is

changing all the time — changing constantly around us. This is

what makes the educational process such a challenge.

We must provide our students with adaptability. But most

important of all we must provide these young people who are put

in the charge of our school system with a confidence within

themselves. Then they will indeed by and large, be able to meet

the many problems which adulthood brings to all of us.

I have always believed that a school system must at all

times encourage everyone to develop their full potential, no

matter what that may be. And above all — and this is something

that I have always tried to emphasize when I have had the

opportunity to speak to teachers — above all we must never let

any of our students feel that he or she is a failure. A student

may fail a subject but that does not mean they are a failure.

Unfortunately too many of our students in our system today,

because they have not been able to cope with some of the rigid

areas of the school life they are in, have felt they are

failures and this is one of the reasons we have dropouts.

Also, may I say, Mr. Speaker, our correctional institutions,

our mental institutions are full of people today who feel that

they are failures — that they have been unable to cope with

life and all its stresses and strains because of their own

sense of inadequacy.

I do not know how many of you — if I can divert for just a

moment — saw "W5" on television the other night. I found it one

of the most distressing programmes I've ever seen from — not

that there was anything wrong with the production — but the

content was absolutely shocking. Yet I think that we needed to

be shocked, those of us who saw it. Apparently in the city of

Toronto, they have discovered a chain where men are going down

to the bus depots and picking up young boys — 14 and under —

[ Page 425 ]

who have run away from home and they are using these boys

for acts of sexual perversion and selling them.

This happened in the city of Toronto — it could be happening

in any city in this province. Why I am bringing this up is — not only was I shocked with how base human nature can become

when they can use young boys in this manner — but the thing

that bothered me most of all, frankly, was that they followed

this very tragic case of one young boy, under 14, who was

picked up at the bus depot — and I wouldn't want to go into the

gory details of what happened to that young boy here. I think

you would find it most distressful. But the fact is, they found

out that that young boy had left home — had run away from home.

And do you know why, Mr. Speaker? He had left home because he

had failed mathematics and he was afraid to go home and face

his parents. Which certainly made me stop and think — we better

start looking at our school system. How many children are

dropping out of this system because they feel they are

failures? I don't blame just the schools — we need to educate

parents also.

I do not say that the school alone can solve all these

problems, Mr. Speaker, certainly we can't expect education

alone to be the answer. That is why I am so pleased that for

the first time — one of the very first things that happened

when we took office — was that the Minister of Health (Hon. Mr.

Cocke) and the Minister of Rehabilitation and Social

Improvement (Hon. Mr. Levi) and myself, got together and

decided that so many of our services for children were crossing

over and there was so much redundancy. There were so many areas

that the three Ministers knew nothing about. Then we added up

the total sum of money that has been spent on children

services, which was tremendous, and we really questioned — were

we really getting out of this the true benefits for the

children. So the three Ministers are meeting constantly. We

have a sub-committee working so that we can co-ordinate all

services for children in this province.

Now, Mr. Speaker, what should be the objectives of education in this province?

You know, I alone as Minister am not the one who should be setting these objectives

in isolation in my office. That is why I am appointing two commissions on education;

one on post-secondary and one on public schools. These two commissions will

have only one chairman, Mr. Speaker, whose name will be announced in two weeks.

I am selecting only one chairman because I feel very strongly that education

must always be a flowing, continuous process. We must look at education from

pre-school, kindergarten — right through to the university level, That's why

I think it is essential to have one co-ordinating commissioner giving overall

direction to both of the commissions, although each one of them will certainly

will have diverse roles in many areas.

I have been asked by many people what are the terms of

reference of these commissions? What are they going to do?

Well, Mr. Speaker, I want to keep these commissions very

flexible in terms of reference. I do not want to see a group of

people hired by the government, appointed and working for six

months and then producing one big, large volume of

documentation of what they consider to be the objectives of

education in the Province of British Columbia.

Mr. Speaker, I want to see living commissions. I want these

commissions to report to me weekly. I want to see them get out

into the community, into the province. I want to see them

create dialogue with the citizens of our province. In other

words, I want to see these commissions acting as a true

catalyst to get people talking about education — students,

parents, teachers, and taxpayers. We want to hear how they feel

about education today. We want assistance in the new directions

which I feel we must take in education in this province.

Now these commissions certainly will have long-range

policies and they will have middle-range policies and they will

also have immediate policies to enact. In other words, if these

commissions report to me that they see something out there in

the educational world that should be changed and can be changed

for the benefit of all those involved, then so be it. I am

willing to see that whenever possible, needed changes take

place without undue delay.

I have announced previously that the post-secondary

commission will be looking at terms of reference for revision

of the University Act and possibly a complete new Community

College Act , which as you know, does not now exist. Certainly

there must be structural revisions made and recommendations

will be forthcoming from the commission. However, the

commission must also concern itself with the role of the

universities and the colleges in meeting the needs not only of

their students within their structures, but also of the

communities in which they serve.

I would like to tell the House that since assuming office, I

have received literally hundreds upon hundreds of letters from

people all across this province — young and old. It's amazing.

They range from people in their eighties to students 10 years

old telling me they don't like their P.E. teacher and can I do

something about it. When you read their letters, you see there

maybe is something there that should be changed — but then

again I can't just accept one letter and say, "yes, change that

teacher." We have to make these young people understand that

they must first of all try and talk it out with their own

teacher and their own school. Then of course, we hope the

commission will look into it if we find these type of letters

still coming in after new recommendations have taken place.

[ Page 426 ]

So these people have been writing in day by day expressing

their hopes and desires for much needed changes in our

educational process. You know, I am delighted to receive this

openness and this communication. All these ideas — we have them

all on file — will be turned over to our commissions. Some of

the people who have written in, I am sure, will be called in

for consultation. There are so many people out there that I

know can give valuable assistance to our commission.

Mr. Speaker, I have initiated a number of policies since

coming into office, which I felt were essential and needed to

be acted upon. But before I list these, so that it can be quite

clear just how many we are embarked on at this time and where

we are going, I would like to announce today one policy — and

this is the first opportunity I have had to announce it here in

the House at this time.

Mr. Speaker, I cannot as Minister of Education in all

consciousness, preside over a school system which condones and

permits the use of corporal punishment on the children in the

schools of British Columbia.

Surely, Mr. Speaker, if we want to reduce acts of violence

in our community and in the world, we must eliminate acts of

violence in our schools. If we want to develop future

generations into more humane people, we must practice more

humanity ourselves.

Now, not for one moment do I suggest that educators should

condone acting-out behavior, if that's what you want to call

it, of students. I was a teacher myself, and I know that

sometimes it can be pretty difficult in a classroom. But let me

tell you I used to strap when I was 18, in my first country

school. As a matter of fact, I tried to strap a boy who was 6

feet tall. And it didn't work. Anyway….

AN HON. MEMBER: You should strap them here.

HON. MRS. DAILLY: That is not the reason — because I've

failed — that I'm bringing this in, I can assure you.

I also want to point out another example that happened to me

when I was 18, in my country school. I had a little boy about

10. I just simply couldn't control him. Couldn't control him.

So, I did what I'd been taught to do in my teacher training. I

brought out the strap, and I strapped him. Do you know, the

next day that little boy just repeated the same behavior. So

something clicked. This strapping isn't going to work with this

boy. In fact, I soon began to realize that strapping does not

work.

AN HON. MEMBER: That's why the Speaker gave it up.

(Laughter).

HON. MRS. DAILLY: So, I just wanted to tell you what happened. I thought,

well, the next step to do as a teacher is to go up and visit the parents. So

I remember going up a very dark lane at night with my flashlight — to tell you

how old I am, I just had gas lights, and gas lamps in…. (Laughter). Anyway,

I remember walking into this farm place. I thought I would just have a real

heart to heart talk with the father and mother about the problems I was having

with their little boy. So I went in and I explained to the parents I just simply

couldn't control this boy; and perhaps if we sat down together we could find

out what was wrong.

I had no sooner made that statement than the father, who was

about 6-foot-2 — or at least he appeared that to me — went to

the wall and took down a large belt that looked about four

inches thick and said, "this is the way you handle him." And he

proceeded to beat the boy. I had to intervene as well as I

could to stop it. It certainly made me realize that here was a

boy, that I was brutalizing in school, who was being brutalized

at home. And we have many cases of this. Unfortunately the ones

that are being strapped often do come from situations like

this.

I do suggest however that, in removing corporal punishment,

I do know that there are going to be teachers and parents out

there who are probably going to be upset. But, as I say, I feel

so strongly about this. And I feel as Minister I cannot preside

over these acts of violence in our school system.

Also, I want to point out that research results have shown

more and more that if we can treat children, with their

individual differences, and care for them in an individual

manner — and here is our challenge to provide this — if we can

give them the opportunity to exert self-discipline, very little

or no corporal punishment at all should be needed.

Therefore, Mr. Speaker, I'm announcing that

section 14 of

the Public Schools Act regulations will be struck out by

order-in-council on Friday and the following will be

substituted:

The discipline in every school shall be similar to that of a

kind, firm and judicious parent but shall not include corporal

punishment. No teacher shall administer corporal punishment in

the public schools of British Columbia.

Now, Mr. Speaker, I would like to pass on to the matter of

kindergartens. I've already announced there will be legislation

forthcoming this session. But I do think I should explain some

background to it, although we'll have a chance to talk about it

when the legislation comes up.

As you know, basically the legislation will mean that all

school boards must provide kindergarten services. This does not

make it mandatory for all children to go to kindergarten. We

realize, particularly in the northern areas, it's going to be

difficult to try to produce a viable kindergarten setup. I

simply want to state now that my department is aware of the

problems that we face here. That is why there will be

regulations forthcoming which we hope

[ Page 427 ]

will make it feasible to provide some delivery of service to

all children, so that they can have this very vital pre-school

year.

At the moment, kindergartens are in 59 school districts in

the province in 481 schools. They're not available in 16 school

districts. Even where they are, there is a great need to extend

them. I think one of the most important things about

kindergartens, Mr. Speaker, is: not only is it an essential

year for children before they enter grade one but, if we had

kindergartens all across the province, our people who are

involved in special services would also be able to go in and

find out the child who needs help — who may have special

disabilities, and who may have emotional problems, which

develop at a very early age. The earlier we can catch them, so

much the better for giving them help. Kindergartens must be

included, and every child in this province must have the

opportunity to go.

Now, I'd like to talk about some general curriculum changes

that have taken place. I'm sure the Public School Commission

will have much to say to us on what's going on out there in

curriculum, and what changes perhaps should be made to fit the

needs of our young people. However, some changes have taken

place already which you might find of interest. First of all,

I'm sure you're all aware there's been a general move towards

decentralization of curriculum authority so that local boards

and teachers have room to provide for their own local

requirements.

Here are two interesting examples of this: air navigation in

Abbotsford and Indian studies in the Queen Charlotte Islands.

The Abbotsford course takes advantage of technical knowledge

and facilities in the area to provide a course which is of

particular interest to students in that area. The Indian

studies course in the Queen Charlottes has been developed in

cooperation with the Indians of the area, who are also

involved in the actual presentation of the course. Now, this

course is open to both Indian and non-Indian students. And it

gives an overview of the whole Canadian scene to provide

perspective; but focuses on the cultures, history and

contemporary situation of Northwest Canada.

There is another area which I wish to speak on where there

are changes being made. That's in family living and sex

education.

Another vital area of policy change in this. You know, Mr.

Speaker, the former government gave very little encouragement — in fact they gave none, really — to the development of this

very important aspect of our curriculum. Any programmes which

took place came because of the initiative of the local group,

with no leadership from this past government at all.

AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear.

HON. MRS. DAILLY: As a matter of fact, since I've come into office boards are surfacing — they're

actually surfacing now — and telling me about the fine

programmes they are ready to go on, which they were afraid to

use under the past administration. Mr. Speaker, I consider it

my responsibility as Minister to give encouragement and

leadership in developing these programmes. And I'd advise the

school boards that are working on these programmes now and have

just been waiting for some sanction, to go ahead and use them.

Because, I want to emphasize, before saying that to them, I

felt I had a responsibility, certainly, to check on the type of

programme. I find that the programmes which are out there have

been brought about by cooperation between teachers, parents

and the school boards. That's the way we want to go.

Now, the Public School Commission and the curriculum

division will be examining these programmes with a view to the

whole system having an opportunity for a good family living and

sex education programme throughout our system, right from the

beginning right through.

Now, Mr. Speaker, another area in curriculum that I want to

discuss is the matter of the French language in our schools.

I'm sure that everyone in this room, particularly those who are

parents and have seen their children struggle through some of

our language programmes, would want to see all our children

develop facility in languages — particularly in our second

official language. You know, federal funds have been available

for some time to help with the teaching of French in the public

schools of this province. And yet, Mr. Speaker, it would appear

that these funds, which were provided by Canada specifically

for the teaching of French, were not used by the former

government for this purpose. They were put into consolidated

revenue.

You know, I think this was a shameful, shameful thing to do,

Mr. Speaker, and I want to tell you right now that these funds

are in the hands of the Department of Education and are going

to be used for the purpose of French teaching. Those funds are

now going to be available to school boards who apply for a

support grant to provide for additional learning in the

teaching of French. We will approve grants for tapes,

television shows, student trips, in-service training, immersion

projects, or almost anything that will help students to learn

French.

Interjection by an Hon. Member.

HON. MRS. DAILLY: We can discuss that in the estimates.

The other area that I think the House might find interesting

to hear about, with reference to curriculum and what's going on

in public school sector: in 1974 all government exams will be

abolished. Graduation will now be determined in 1974 on the

school's

[ Page 428 ]

own assessment of the student. Now, this will mean much

cooperation and consultation with all out post-secondary

institutions, so that we can enable a smooth transfer of

students from high school to post-secondary centres of

learning.

This is the only way I feel we can move, Mr. Speaker, if

we're talking about decentralization of curriculum, if we're

talking about local involvement by teachers, parents and

students in programming.

Scholarship examinations, of course, will still be available

for those who wish to write them. In the 1973-74 year those

examinations will be made available twice annually, in January

and in June — this is for the Member for North

Vancouver-Capilano (Mr. Brousson) who wrote me a letter on this

particular problem, and I appreciate it — rather than in June

only. They will also be available so that students who have

summer work can write them and still be able to take

part in

their summer work.

I have also authorized in principle, Mr. Speaker, a system

whereby adults who have not graduated from secondary school may

qualify for senior secondary school equivalency diplomas. I'll

explain that now.

It's recognized that through work and other experiences

there are many adult non-graduates who have acquired skills and

knowledge at or above the secondary school-leaving level. These

persons now will be able to earn secondary school equivalency

— and this is for the Hon. Member to my right — by challenging a

battery of five standardized tests. It simply means that you're

not any longer going to have to say, "I'm barred from going on.

I don't have my grade 12." There'll be a set exam that you can

write.

This should be helpful in overcoming the disadvantage of the

lack of recognized, formal, secondary education, which

presently can be preventing many of these people from

qualifying for job promotions, new employment opportunities or

admission to other training or educational institutions.

Another policy which will be going into effect in 1974 will

be the institution of a set spring vacation at the end of

March, which means it no longer will be tied in with Easter. I

think most parents and students will be pleased to see this

because, as you know, it's a long stretch from January through

and sometimes Easter comes very late. Then there's only a

couple of more months and they're out of school. This way we're

going to set a standard time for a spring vacation.

I've had a number of students write to me, when they've heard about this, and

they say: "Oh, that's great, but how about making it a month long?" That's the

only problem.

Now in special education, Mr. Speaker, I mentioned earlier in

my opening remarks that the Committee for Children, consisting of the three

ministers — Health, Education and Welfare — are working very closely. Our whole

special education policy in our department is tied in with this committee, because

we realize that a Department of Education cannot provide all these special services

in isolation.

Together we examine and we integrate requests for assistance

and we consider suggestions for the formation of new

services.

In its next phase, the Committee for Children will evaluate

the range and efficiency of services being delivered to all

children and will suggest ways in which present facilities and

services could be changed or added to.

One great problem we have, of course, is finding personnel.

We were discussing this this morning with the Parent-Teachers

Federation, who are very aware of the need for improvement in

special education. What we have to do is find the personnel,

particularly speech therapists, et cetera, who can get into our

schools or the community centres and help these children.

There are at this time some very promising experiments going

on in the province following this integrated policy, but it's

our responsibility — the three Ministers — to see that every

encouragement is given to expanding these co-ordinated services

throughout the province.

Now, Mr. Speaker, just briefly on native Indian education. I

wonder how many of us are aware that at the present time only

40 native Indians are enrolled in our British Columbia

universities, out of a total of status and non-status Indian

population of some 100,000 in British Columbia. Surely those

figures alone point out to us that somewhere education for the

native Indian child has sadly failed.

We have a great responsibility and a great challenge here to

do something positive in the whole field of Indian education.

However, I want to stress the great importance that any moves

that we make in this direction — my department or any other

department that's involved — must always be done in

consultation with the native Indian groups themselves.

To this end I'd like to announce that in April a native

Indian will be appointed to a permanent position in the

Department of Education as Director of Indian Education.

Also, since November, 1972, personnel of our department have

been working very closely with native Indian representatives to

find the best means of improving the educational opportunities

for native children.

Out of this cooperation we hope to see changes in the

curriculum — to make the curriculum more relevant to Indian

children.

Our department right now is supporting the University of

British Columbia in sending a group of teachers for practice

teaching to the Queen Charlotte Islands, to teach in the

schools there, which contain a large number of Indian children,

and to spend time

[ Page 429 ]

living in the homes of the Indian people.

At all times we must maintain close cooperation between the

Indian parents and the schools their children attend. This is

so vital.

Mr. Speaker, the next subject I want to just comment on is

the subject of transportation. If anything has presented

problems to me since I came into office, it's transportation

problems. It certainly points out to me there has to be a whole

overall review of transportation policies by our government — and particularly as it applies to the busing of school

children.

However, we have taken one step — it's just a small step.

But when I came into office and found these ridiculous

situations where children were being left standing in the cold

because they weren't within the 3-mile limit and being passed

up — some little children left with frozen fingers — I simply

said, "Well, look, we have to do something immediately to stop

this."

You see, we do get bogged down with these regulations. The

regulations had said 3 miles and that was it.

So what we've done is work out rather a complicated formula — I don't want to go into it now. But the point of it is that

it's based on the temperature in the different areas of the

province. Special allowances — and I can elaborate on this

during the estimates — have been allowed to school boards. Extra

moneys in effect have been granted so that they will be able to

include picking up these children who don't live within that

necessary limit.

In other words, we believe in giving autonomy to the local

school boards really to make the final decision. But naturally

we have the responsibility to assist them with the funding.

In educational television, one advantage we have from the

former government, Mr. Speaker, is that they left such a vacuum

in the area of educational television that we have no mistakes

to correct. We can start afresh. So it's great. We have a

wide-open field here. What we want to do is find out what's the

best way to go.

So again, here's a subject that's going to have to have a

whole lot of consideration given to it. What's the best way for

B.C. to enter into this? The Department of Education cannot get

into this area in isolation because the whole matter of media

and communications concerns other departments also.

However, at the moment the Department of Education is

embarking on a small programme — but I think it's a step in the

right direction. It's at B.C.I.T., and I suggest that any of

you that haven't had a chance to visit that studio go in — it's

very interesting.

In this small studio there's a very small TV production

crew. This was initiated on a small step by the former

government. I certainly say that was done.

The point is — why did it take so long to get going? At

least we are moving in that direction.

This is going to have encouragement from our department.

Actually what happens at this provincial education media centre

is that it has begun to build a library of television tapes, in

consultation with the curriculum branch of the department. They

are actually making video tapes there, which will be sent out

to the schools. And many of the schools are now going to be

equipped with a video transmitter.

Planning is also underway to develop tapes for use in the

community colleges. I am also pleased to announce that some

productions have actually been completed at this studio — which

include the insertion of sign language translations for deaf

students on several films. We so often forget about this. This

unique technique developed in cooperation with Jericho Hill

School enables deaf students to obtain full value from the

films which were otherwise only partially intelligible to

them.

We anticipate this new service will bring students of all

ages many ideas, experiences and learning materials which

formerly were unavailable. At the same time we do not dispense

with the use of film, which still has a great role to play. But

I think we have to look at both areas — television and the use

of film.

Now, Mr. Speaker, I would like to conclude by speaking

briefly on post-secondary education. I'd like to turn to the

very rapid changes which have occurred in the complexity, scope

and expectations of post-secondary education through the past 10

years, which have actually introduced a completely altered

social environment. No longer, I'm sure we all agree, should

higher education ever be recognized as a special preserve for a

chosen few.

Today the term "higher education" — and it includes all

studies, be they technical, vocational, general, academic or

whatever — continuing education is what we are talking about.

Anything which goes on, any educational process which goes on

above the K to 12 system, is really post-secondary

education.

No longer are we in an era of scarcities. Although

university enrolments appear to be leveling off somewhat,

post-secondary students still are coming in ever increasing

numbers to follow a wide diversity of vocational, technical and

other career courses and programmes.

Post-secondary education, Mr. Speaker, belongs to all the

people of this province — people of all ages. Therefore in the

years ahead I'm sure a number of very significant changes will

be forthcoming to ensure that our post-secondary institutions

do indeed serve all the people. I realize that some of our

post-secondary institutions are moving in this direction, but

government has a responsibility to see that that movement is

accelerated.

[ Page 430 ]

The financing of post-secondary education, of course, will

be of major concern to all involved, and I believe, Mr.

Speaker, that a responsible government must demand greater

fiscal responsibility and operational planning than has been

demanded from these institutions in the past. I am sure that

the commission on post-secondary education will be devoting

much of its time in open discussions with all those involved in

our universities, because some universities are really moving

and making an attempt to involve the community. But as I said,

we need to accelerate it. We hope that the commission can talk

with those in universities — students, instructors, faculty and

administration — so that together we can produce positive and

very much needed changes.

Now, Mr. Speaker, during the past five months we've made two

major changes respecting post-secondary education in the

Province.

The first major change was that all capital costs for

community colleges would be funded 100 per cent by the

Government. I do not want to repeat the sad history of what

happened under the previous administration through their

insistence on local participation in capital financing, The second major change has been a reorganization within my

department, which brought about a separation within the

Department of Public School Administration from post-secondary.

Consequently we now have a division of post-secondary services,

which now operates as an autonomous unit, with the

Superintendent of Post-Secondary Education now reporting

directly to the Minister.

Mr. Speaker, implicit in the study of provisions of

post-secondary educational opportunities throughout the

province, particularly our sparsely populated areas, is the

whole matter of delivery systems. It is not economically

feasible and perhaps not even educationally desirable to

establish a college campus in every community. However, we do

know that it is our responsibility to see that every community

receives service in post-secondary. The commission, I am sure,

will undertake recommendations for providing post-secondary

services in new and innovative ways to all our citizens.

And now, Mr. Speaker, I would like to conclude on this note.

All the mechanisms that we now employ to meet the educational

needs of our citizens need to be reviewed, all of them. These

mechanisms that we're caught up in are absorbing more and more

of our energies, more of our teachers' energies and more of the

educational dollar. By designing anew our educational

structure, we can allow that structure to support the student.

We can leave the human energies of our students and our

teachers alike to be dedicated to true learning. Thank you very

much, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Second Member for Vancouver South.

MRS. D. WEBSTER (Vancouver South): Thank you, Mr.

Speaker.

As with the Minister of Education (Hon. Mrs. Dailly), I

today have the support of my husband in this assembly. I would

like to, thank you, Mr. Speaker, for so generously inviting him

as a former MLA to sit on the floor of this House.

Mr. Speaker, I would also like to congratulate you on

tabling your report on the Legislative Procedure and

Practice Inquiry Act with the proposed changes in the rules

and proceedings of this assembly. Your committees are to be

commended for their fine work in the preparation of this

report.

As a former teacher, Mr. Speaker, I too am happy to be able

to greet the many delegates from the Parent-Teacher

organizations across British Columbia who are in the gallery

today. We owe them a debt of gratitude and respect, dating back

50 years or more for the work of the PTA's in this

Province.

During the depression and war years, they provided funds for

extra sports equipment, for library books, for extra equipment

in the science rooms and the home economics rooms. In many of

the elementary schools, they also provided milk or hot soup

free for the little children in grades 1, 2 and 3, to

supplement their lunches.

Today they continue to work as a liaison between the home

and school. It's therefore not surprising that where PTA's are

active, the parents continue to understand what their children

are being taught in the classroom.

Though the fund raising aspect is no longer as important as

it used to be, many PTA's still continue in this function to

assist schools. For instance, in my constituency of Vancouver

South, Sexsmith Elementary School for one example, with a

population of 500 children, has a PTA of 150 men and women. I

believe this is typical of many of the elementary schools

throughout the province. It still provides for the school,

through the money it raises, field trips for the children to

take, library books and subsidized hot lunches, either milk and

soup, or meat and potatoes, at the price of about 20 cents a

meal, which is really very generous. All the assistance for the

provision of this is voluntary. Last year they provided a

trampoline and audio-visual equipment for the school, and this

year they're working to provide a P.A. system throughout the

school.

The PTA's, Mr. Speaker, are concerned about several things.

One of the things that concerns them very deeply is the

battered child syndrome. They hope that some action may be able

to be taken in relation to this problem.

Mr. Speaker, the PTA members are also disturbed about the

continued use of cigarettes and light drugs, mainly

barbiturates, among the grade 7 and 8

[ Page 431 ]

students. Several of them have suggested to me that they

would like to see a return to the segregation of grade 7, 8

and 9 classes, not to be called Junior Highs, but to be called

Senior Elementaries, so that it would give them a little

feeling of prestige.

Before I continue on the question of education, Mr. Speaker,

I would first like to congratulate the Premier (Hon. Mr.

Barrett) for his first budget, which is very reassuring indeed.

It has its critics of course, but none of those to date have

been able to criticize it too severely. Allow me to say that it

also has the approval of many who have examined it

critically.

I wish to quote the leading editorial of Saturday's Victoria

Colonist . It says, to quote:

"It is, truly, a 'people' budget — but with a good measure

of caution and pragmatism. The increase in spending in the coming year proposed

by Premier Barrett as finance minister is, by past standards, tremendous. He

plans to spend $267 million more than in the current year. The increase in the

last Bennett budget was $151 million, and in the one before that $135 million.

But the new government seems to have good grounds to believe that the economy

will sustain a $1.72 billion budget with ease. And, apparently, it is not about

to frighten business and industry away….

On the 'people' side of the budget

speech, it may be particularly worthy of note that the biggest increase in departmental

estimates is for the rehabilitation and social improvement department at $90,188,809

in additional funds. Likewise, the education department expenditures will rise

by nearly a tenth, including increased regular grants to school districts and

a 'one-year catch up' on provincial sharing, and also $15 increases in the home-owner

grants. The hospital insurance, public and mental health services will all have

substantially bigger budgets. Judging by the first of them, there is weight in

Premier Barrett's words: 'Our budgets will be prudent, will be tailored to meet

the changing times, and will be balanced whenever possible and when in the public

interest."'

I support the budget.

Mr. Speaker, it is very difficult for me as a former teacher

and wanting to speak on education to follow after our Minister

of Education (Hon. Mrs. Dailly). She made an outstanding speech

and has given us real content on what she intends to do in her

department — so different from what has happened in former

years. She has made it clear to us what the new legislation and

policies are actually going to be.

I should also like to pass a word of commendation on to the

Minister of Education for the efficient way in which she

brought back a feeling of normality and confidence in the

school system throughout B.C. during her short period in

office.

Education is a sensitive field which affects every man,

woman and child in the province. The announcement of new starts

has been encouraging. So has the granting of added budgetary

supplements to restore the confidence in salary negotiations

among educational personnel. To assure this confidence, a one

year adjustment payment on operating grants to school districts

of $12 million has been included.

Mr. Speaker, it is also reassuring to see that the sum of

$750,000 has been set aside for research and evaluation. At

present, with the changes in our mode of living and

technological changes in the fields of science, agriculture and

consumerism, many new techniques and methods are being

experimented with in a great number of schools throughout this

province. Research is of utmost importance if we are going to

develop and direct our educational goals into the end of the

twentieth century to meet changing needs, technologies and

ideologies.

It is also encouraging, Mr. Speaker, to see that community

colleges are no longer to be classed and financed under the

public school system but will be classed as post-secondary

education.

Mr. Speaker, I would like now to speak for a few minutes

about northern British Columbia. The north is one of our

fastest growing regions. I have generally been in agreement

with those who have argued that we should not extend our

community colleges into universities. However, I do believe

that we need a university of the north.

The College of New Caledonia at Prince George could well be

expanded to fulfil that function. The Kootenays and Okanagan

have Notre Dame University. The Lower Mainland has the

University of British Columbia and Simon Fraser University, and

Vancouver Island has the University of Victoria. Thus, there is

no similar institution in the whole northern area of British

Columbia.

Let us consider for a moment the student population of our

vast north, extending from Prince Rupert to Dawson Creek and

Fort St. John and from Williams Lake to the northern reaches of

the province. The total student population in elementary and

secondary schools in that area is 65,048. Of these, 24,500 are

in the secondary grades.

The New Caledonia college has a total student population at

present in its first year of 600. That is the year 1971-72.

The 1972 annual report on education had this to say about

this college: "Continuing demands by employers for trained

personnel has provided employment opportunities for graduates

from vocational training. Requests for graduates for dental

assisting, practical nursing and the commercial programmes have

exceeded the number of students completing training. There have

been ample opportunities for graduates from the

pre-apprenticeship and trades training courses. Utilization of

facilities was at a

[ Page 432 ]

maximum, and several courses were held on weekends to

accommodate persons who work because the space in the college

was available only at that time."

It states that one general welding course was given from 11

p.m. until 6 a.m. because that was the only time space

available for the course.

It also states: "A shortage of skilled workers continues to

exist in the area. Forecasts indicate this will continue as the

northern half of the province is opened and developed. Demands

for training and upgrading will increase and additional

facilities will be needed to meet the demands from both people

and industry."

Equally exciting reports in the annual report on education

come from Dawson Creek Vocational School and from the one at

Terrace. All indications point to crowded classrooms, a need

for skilled, trained workers and satisfaction with what is

being offered. Like Oliver Twist, they want more.

Mr. Speaker, in Terrace, an experimental eight week repair

and maintenance construction course was set up for Indians,

with the help of the Indian Affairs department. This course was

designed to give basic training in the repair and maintenance

of home and community equipment for the remote villages. The

student body consisted of 20 young native people, one selected

from each of 20 villages. The student body of 20 who commenced

all remained until the end of the course and, of those, 19

graduated.

I could go on, Mr. Speaker. The story reads the same as you

go along. Half of the students at New Caledonia College are

enrolled in academic courses.

Now, Mr. Speaker, this brings me back to my chief reason for

urging a university of the north. As the Minister of Education

has said, there are only 40 native Indians at universities in

the Province of British Columbia at present. I believe we

should promote the opportunity for higher education for our

native people.

Mr. Speaker, there is a high percentage of native

population throughout the whole of this northern part of our

beautiful province, and let no one tell you that they are not

every bit as bright as the rest of the population.

Their work in the arts and handicrafts is outstanding. They

are excellent guides, trappers and fishermen. As tradesmen,

they are much better as high steel riggers than any white men,

and they are competent woodsmen.

However, we are still pitifully short of native professionals, lawyers, teachers

and nurses and social workers. I was therefore pleased to read of the proposed

appointment of George Wilson, a native Indian, by the Minister of Education,

as a director of Indian education for B.C. A native of Bella Bella, he has a

Bachelor of Education and is a graduate from the University of Victoria. I believe

he is the one that the Minister was referring to at the time when she said that

they were going to have a director for Indian education fairly soon in this

province.

Prince George and district has a population of approximately

75,000 people. I taught in Prince George during the 1940's when

that northern city only had a population….

MRS. P.J. JORDAN (North Okanagan): Mr. Speaker, on a point

of order. I wonder if you would just draw to the House's

attention its attendance, out of 35 Members on the Government

side, there are only 18 on the floor.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. That is not a point of order,

Hon. Member.

Interjection by an Hon. Member.

MR. SPEAKER: Would the Hon. Member proceed with her

address.

MRS. WEBSTER: This northern city had only a population of

about 2,500. We had quite a number of Indian children then in

the schools, but they were inclined to drop out at about grade

8 level or sooner.

During the 1950's, as a provincial inspector, I visited most

towns and cities throughout that part of the province. I was

greatly impressed by the way all these centres had grown in

that short space of about eight years. I was also impressed,

Mr. Speaker, by the number of Indian children that were now

going on to high school. But somehow, formal education comes to

a sudden stop for most of them at the end of grade 10 or grade

If they want to go on to university, it means separation not

only from their own culture but also from the north country

with which they are familiar, which is their home. It takes a

great deal of courage for any young person to enter a huge

institution like the University of British Columbia, with its

20,000 students or more, directly on leaving high school. But

for an Indian boy or girl, shy and from a small town and a

different culture, it is an awesome and frightening experience.

He is faced, first of all, with a future of loneliness, the

problem of adjustment in having to leave all that is familiar

to him, and possibly to live with white folks for the first

time in his life.

I suggest in all sincerity that we need a northern

university, where many of the programmes could be oriented to

the needs of our native people and the problems of the

north.

Mr. Speaker, I was greatly impressed by the First Member for

Vancouver Centre (Mr. Barnes) recently when he expressed the

importance of a human rights ministry for all people, not only

in relation to sex but also the variety of cultures and races

in our country, be they white, black, yellow, brown or red. At

present there is a barrier preventing our young

[ Page 433 ]

Indians from continuing their education and obtaining the

skills and competence assured the rest of the population. It's

ephemeral, Mr. Speaker, but it's there nevertheless.

Part of it is related to the distance from educational

institutions. This creates a barrier due to the cost factor and

also to that of separation from their home background. The

other barrier is due to the fact that they cannot identify with

the courses offered. We must not allow them to drop out at

grade 8 level or even grade 12, for we know that it is

impossible for them to compete without adequate education.

Being realistic, I would not expect an immediate development

of plans for a university in this area. But I believe in the

sincerity of this Government in wanting to provide the young

people of the north with similar services as are now being

enjoyed in the rest of the province. I would hope, however,

that a northern university could be established within five

years.

Mr. Speaker, I would like now to spend a few moments

acquainting you with some of the disparities in higher

education suffered by women. Dr. Sylvia Ostry, a Deputy

Minister in Ottawa, writing for the Women's Bureau in 1966, had

this to say: "An interesting observation is the long-run

stability of women who are in the professional occupations. In

1901, 15 per cent of the female labour force were in the

professional category. The peak was reached in 1921, when 19

per cent of all female workers were professionals, second only

to service workers. From 1921 the professional percentage

gradually declined to only about 14 per cent in 1951 and

recovered slightly to 16 per cent in 1961, and that is the

latest figure we have.

"This means that for most of this century, women in the

professional category have barely held their own in relation to

the tremendous growth in female labour force. The new jobs have

by no means all been in the professional sector."

This indicates, Mr. Speaker, that in spite of our tremendous

strides in higher education, women have not been able to share

equally in the labour market with others in the professions.

Canada is far behind western Europe in the employment of women

in the medical, dental and pharmaceutical fields. In most

European countries, women occupy 20 to 25 per cent or more of

these professions, while in Canada only 3 per cent of our

dentists are women — that's the figure for 1970. Only 12 to 13

per cent of our doctors and pharmacists — that is the 1964

figure. Twenty per cent of European lawyers are women, compared

to approximately 8.7 per cent in Canada in 1968-69.

MR. D.M. BROUSSON (North Vancouver-Capilano): You don't want

more lawyers, do you?

MRS. WEBSTER: We certainly do.

The recent decision of our Minister of Rehabilitation and

Social Improvement (Hon. Mr. Levi) to increase the programme of

government-subsidized day care centres should give married

women greater opportunity to carry on with a career or continue

with their education. However, this is not the whole story.

The February issue of the British Columbia Teachers'

Federation Newsletter , in an

article on the status of

women, charged that, "Discrimination against women exists in

the policies and attitudes of the Department of Education, the

British Columbia Teachers' Federation, the local school boards

and some individual teachers, and something should be done

about it." That is a quote from that particular newsletter.

Mr. Speaker, the teaching profession in B.C., like the other

professions, tends to be male-dominated. In the 1940's the women

teachers of Vancouver fought for equal pay with men. It was a

long hard struggle in which the men feared they would have to

take a cut in salary. But when the women got equal pay, there

never was any indication that men had to take a cut in

salary.

The struggle for parity in other educational areas still

goes on. Women have never been encouraged to compete for the

higher administrative positions. As a result, there are

probably fewer than a dozen women principals and

vice-principals in B.C. and very few female department heads.

Among the provincial inspectors, Mr. Speaker, except for home

economics, I do not believe there is a single woman. Yet many

female counselors and other women teachers have proven over and

over again their administrative ability is equal to that of

their male counterparts.

In Winnipeg the policy of employing women as principals

dates back as far as the 1930's. One of Canada's outstanding

authorities on education is Sybil Shack, the principal of Isaac

Brock Junior High School in Winnipeg. We must let our superior

women here also grow in stature.

Mr. Speaker, it augurs well for the women teachers of this

province that our present Minister of Education (Hon. Mrs.

Dailly) is a women and also an outstanding educator and

administrator. I know she will be aware of all the inequities

that exist and we look forward with hope to her wisdom in

dealing with them.

A recent "Report on the Status of Woman" at the University

of British Columbia points to areas of discrimination in

salaries and salary increments, promotions, percentage of women

in each faculty, and the difficulty of women with high

post-graduate degrees such as doctorates to obtain positions

equivalent to men. The question is not one of competency, Mr.

Speaker, nor of standard of educational qualifications, but

whether one is male or female. This is not good enough.

[ Page 434 ]

When men and women are the same age, have been at UBC the

same number of years, are at the same rank and were appointed

at the same rank in the same faculty with the same term

contract — men earn $1,740 per annum more than women. In some

cases the disparity is even greater than that. This is rank

injustice and discrimination.

A review of the report states, "The university punishes

women for not being men. Not only are they paid less and kept

in the lower ranks, but the university educates fewer women

than men and it educates them less." Three days after the

findings were announced, President Walter Gage said he was

setting up a special committee to consider the report,

declaring, "Our aim is to eradicate any inequities in the

university's treatment of the female students, staff and

faculty members."

Mr. Speaker, I wish him Godspeed. The women of this province

and of this assembly will be watching closely to see what the

results of the deliberations of that special committee will

be.

Reactions to the report have been tremendous. A column in

the Vancouver Sun on February 10, 1973, states: "The Board of

Governors put the final seal of approval on UBC's first credit

courses in women's studies. Although the UBC programme is not

scheduled to begin until September, the response has been

overwhelming." Enrolment will be limited initially to 85

students, both male and female, in the Faculty of Arts.

Mr. Speaker, the women of this province are on the march

and, as the saying goes, "Hell hath no fury like a woman

scorned." We are looking forward to a new day when all

discrimination will be a thing of the past.

Mr. Speaker, I should like now to turn to one or two

subjects dealing with my own constituency.

If you own a car you will be aware, as I am, of some of the

problems of running it. I believe the main complaint everyone

has is the constant rise in the price of gasoline. Mr. Speaker,

there are very definite reasons for these price rises. I don't

think we can blame it on the individual service stations by any

means.

One of the most exasperating problems is that of the type of

advertising by the major oil companies. No matter which station

you go to you are deluged with give-aways such as tumblers,

chinaware, pictures of hockey players, coupons, or a ticket on

a hockey or baseball pool. Have you every heard of anyone who

really wanted those gimmicks?

Unfortunately, the individual gas stations have no control over this type of

advertising. It is forced upon them. Not only do they have to pay for the gimmicks,

but the handling also takes time — which costs money to the individual stations.

The retailers tell me that they resent this type of promotion as much as the

general public does. These should be done away with immediately, Mr. Speaker.

Another reason for the constant rise in gas prices has to do

with the unnecessary number of outlets. In my constituency of

Vancouver South, there are as many as three service stations at

some corners. Not only that, but three or four blocks down the

street the pattern is repeated.

These stations are leased out to the managers by the oil

companies and are very strictly controlled in all their

operations. No only is the market-place swamped with retail

outlets, but recently the major oil companies have started to

establish a small but effective network of companies owned and

operated as retail outlets in competition to their own

lessees.

Mr. Speaker, tougher legislation is necessary to control

this cut-throat kind of business. There should be legislation

too, Mr. Speaker, to control the matter of disparity of prices.

There is no reason why gas should cost more in Grand Forks and

Prince George than it does in Vancouver and Victoria.

At one time many car drivers could do some of their own

repair work. That's not true any more. Most motorists feel

lucky if they find a service station where they can get

satisfactory repair service from qualified mechanics. There

should be legislation brought forward dealing with the

compulsory certification of auto mechanics who have passed

tradesman's qualifications after taking recognized

apprenticeship courses in mechanics.

Interjection by an Hon. Member.

MRS. WEBSTER: That's right. It would be a benefit not only

to the individual motorist but it would also be a benefit to

the stations and the operators because they would be

guaranteeing satisfaction to the people who deal with them.

Mr. Speaker, I would like now to refer to one more subject

concerning Vancouver South. This is the proposal that the ferry

slip for the Vancouver-to-Nanaimo ferries will be moved from

Horseshoe Bay to Iona Island. I appreciate the fact that this

will relieve the pressure of traffic over the bridges and

highways to the North Shore. On the other hand, it will greatly

increase pressure on already heavily crowded thoroughfares

through Vancouver South.

It will also tax to the limit the bridges already in

existence. While the federal Department of Transport is

planning a bridge at the foot of Hudson Street to relieve

pressure on the Oak Street Bridge to the airport, this bridge

will have only four lanes, with none particularly committed to

rapid transit.

Mr. Speaker, within the next five years or less this bridge

too will be inadequate, and other means will have to be found

to transport the public to the ferries and to the airport.

MR. BROUSSON: Get your government to draw

[ Page 435 ]

up a plan…

MRS. WEBSTER: I hope the Minister of Highways (Hon. Mr.

Strachan) is aware of the problem that is bound to occur.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: I recognize the Hon. Member for Richmond.

MR. H. STEVES (Richmond): Mr. Speaker, I would like to join

in welcoming the representatives of the Parent-Teachers

Association here today. I find it rather significant to note

that, here on Education Day, the Social Credit Opposition has

not so much as put up a speaker on this very important subject.

To me, Mr. Speaker, this is the final proof of their lack of

sound educational policy.

MR. J.R. CHABOT (Columbia River): The Whip wouldn't allow us

to speak.

MR. STEVES: You're afraid to.

I, too, am a teacher, Mr. Speaker. And due to this lack of

policy the Socreds have shown over the past 20 years, this is

one of the reasons that I am in politics here today.

Mr. Speaker, the clearest proof of the determination of our

new Government to stick by its election promises is contained

in the expenditure increases in the provincial budget. The

Government is clearly putting its 1973 money where its 1972

mouth was. We have no less than a $90 million increase in

rehabilitation and social improvement spending; a $45 million

increase in education spending; a $40 million increase in

hospital insurance; a $10 million community recreational fund,

and large increases in the budgets of the Attorney General and

the Minister of Municipal Affairs. This is exactly the kind of

emphasis the New Democratic Party promised, and this is the

kind of emphasis we are delivering.

At the same time as welcoming this policy, Mr. Speaker, we

should remind ourselves that governmental departments are as

much a bureaucratic convenience as manifestations of true

services to people. While increases in grants to municipalities

will inevitably benefit the towns and villages of our province;

while boosted education funds will no doubt enhance conditions

in our schools; and while funds for community projects will

without doubt encourage a new social awareness among our young

people, we must never forget that the best services to the

people of this province will only come about as a result of a

wise combination of municipal, education and community

spending.

Mr. Speaker, I am proud to remember that, when I was first elected to public

office as an alderman in January, 1969, I made a public speech calling on the

former provincial government to reform our school system in a way that gave

common sense value for money and served a common sense purpose, that everyone

— parents, students, teachers, intellectuals, workers, et cetera — could relate

to; a way that community, cultural, recreational and educational activities

could be developed together for the betterment of all.

Along with many others, we saw clearly then that our public

school system is an institution that forms one of the most

remarkable anachronisms of our age. While almost everything has

changed — even the Social Credit government — the school system

has remained essentially unaltered since that great Matthew

Arnold worked so hard as one of the world's original public

school inspectors a century ago.

I was not alone four years ago — and I suggest to you today

that I am still not alone — in believing that our public

schools today are perhaps the single most dysfunctional element

in our society. There is a vast waste of money, an appalling

waste of time — in fact, the desperately valuable time of our

young people — and an incredible waste of energy, both among

students and the staff. We have wandered vaguely through almost

an entire generation of widespread family discord. We have

reeled under the most mind-boggling technological innovations — television being not the least of them.

We have enjoyed an unprecedented period of monetary wealth,

which has spread out most notably into the pockets of young

people and created a veritable youth market unto itself.

Yet throughout, under this entire series of upheavals of our

school system, the system has remained a sacred heritage from

the past. Why? Because in the past nobody has had the courage

or the conviction to make the desperately needed reforms. Just

like our Legislature today, which our Government is now taking

a fresh look at in the light of the modern world, the schools

have been viewed as sacred cows which any administration

tampered with at the risk of bringing down the wrath of the

gods.

Fortunately, there are encouraging signs. The Minister of

Education (Hon. Mrs. Dailly) is appointing two commissions to

review post-secondary education and the public school system.

We have the highest hopes for these two reform bodies.

Local school boards also are making admirable efforts to

integrate their schools with the real live community which

surrounds them. In Vancouver, the school board just last month

agreed to start virtually from scratch two community schools.

One North Vancouver School is working under a clear community

oriented policy. In Richmond, we have the new Hugh McNair

Secondary School designed to accommodate the community

principle. And we have integrated our newest community centre

with another school.

[ Page 436 ]

Here in Victoria, the school board is working hard on a

totally new community school for Saanich municipality.

These are welcome developments I would suggest, but in the

year 1973, we should hardly become too excited with the fact

that schools are slowly becoming integrated with their

communities. In fact we would be justified in asking why it has

been so long in coming and we can point out to some

developments that are now long overdue.

Mr. Speaker, it is for these reasons that this Government's

budget is crucially meaningful to the field of education. The

budget offers big jumps in spending in just the three fields

most closely related to the development of community integrated

schools, municipal, educational and community recreation

projects.

First, what do we mean by community schools? Aren't all of

our schools community schools? Of course they are to some

extent. But we cannot labour any longer under the "thank

heavens for small miracles" attitude. It is this attitude which

has landed us with a seriously dysfunctional school system. We

have to have the courage to overhaul our schools so that they

serve not only the narrow

section of the student community, not

only the students themselves as a whole, but everybody.

What does this mean in practical terms? It means that the

newly charged municipal coffers and the newly charged

educational coffers can be combined in fact, must be combined

to offer facilities under one roof.

I would suggest that it is crazy to have a municipal health

centre a mile and a half from a major secondary school. It is

crazy to have a public library on a little hill all on its own

somewhere. It is crazy to have a town auditorium in the

business area far away from a major secondary school; or

swimming pools and ice rinks at separate locations in the

community where they sit idle during school hours because they

are too far away from where the kids are, at school.

On the other hand, it is equally as crazy to have school

buildings and classrooms designed and located so they cannot be

readily used by the community. These strange oddities of our

society result from bureaucratic conveniences, not from a

dedication to the betterment of people. One of the very simple,

fundamental concepts of the community school is that all

important community services should be located under its roof.

Or to put it another way — the community school should be under

the same roof as the community services and under the control

of the community it serves.

Mr. Speaker, I see the community school including not only

the items that I have mentioned, such as community recreational

facilities, public libraries, health services and auditoriums:

but also new innovations such as community video and cable

TV production facilities, community meeting rooms, 24-hour day

care centres, senior citizens' recreational areas, adventure

playgrounds, outdoor passive recreational areas, and perhaps

even community movie theatre facilities.

Mr. Speaker, in June of 1969, the B.C. Parent-Teachers

Federation report called the Community Concept ,

stated:

"The overall picture appears to be as follows;

1. As a minimum, school grounds are open to public after school

hours.

2. Reciprocal use of community hall and school auditorium, or

community swimming pool and school gymnasium is quite widespread, but there

is no question of joint ownership, nor in most cases, maintenance.

3. Quite a number of communities follow a definite policy of

acquiring recreational land adjacent to school land. The whole area, with facilities

installed thereon, is available to both parties at appropriate times.

4. In several cases formally constituted joint planning committees

have been set up to the mutual benefit of those concerned. However they come

up against a major problem in joint financing.

5. In a very few cases indeed, full scale joint planning, ownership,

and operation are found. While the economies resulting from such a system would

clearly be of benefit to the small, relatively poor communities, it is in fact

the larger and more affluent that actually have them."

The school PTA group went on to say in their report: If the

benefits are so great, why is everybody not at level 5? — that's having joint planning and ownership of community

schools. To which the answer they found was a lack of resources

and know-how. They went on: "As long as the Public Schools

Act does not provide for joint financing, the entire burden

is going to fall on the community with consequent waste."

Well, Mr. Speaker, this is exactly the problem we have faced

in my community and most communities throughout B.C. for the

past 20 years, and I'm glad it's over. As chairman and member

of both Richmond's Recreation Commission and a Joint Community

School Planning Committee for the past four years, I've found

it extremely frustrating that not only were we not able to

jointly plan such facilities for community use, but we were in

fact openly discouraged by the previous government to do so.

Mr. Speaker, it is up to this new Government to see that the

great new injection of funds is clearly steered in this

direction, instead of being channeled off into fragmented

bureaucratic enterprises. It is up to our new Government to see

that the recreational facilities supported by the $10 million

Recreational

[ Page 437 ]

Facilities Fund are located wherever possible on joint

community school sites.

It is not enough, Mr. Speaker, to commit ourselves to the

policy of uniting community services into a common educational

and service and recreational unit. There must be — and will

inevitably be — if this policy is followed, a breakdown of the

paternalistic hierarchical pecking order within the entire

school system. This would be both in the administration and in

the everyday teaching spheres., Mr. Speaker, I think that it's excellent that today the

Minister of Education (Hon. Mrs. Dailly) has seen fit to

abolish the perverted practice of inflicting strappings on

students who, for one reason or another are hard to handle.

Strapping and the whole system of institutionalized bullying

which it reflects, is a perfect example of how far out of tune

with the times our public schools have been. We must see to it

that once and for all the pedagogue is banished from the public

classrooms of this province.

A new emphasis on making the community school a truly

communal resource will in turn change the school teacher of old

into a modern type of community worker, a resource person. At

one extreme, the knowledgable technician; at the other

extreme, the man of the world, the spiritual guru. I would

suggest that strapping, thrashing — bullying a mass of facts

into modern children who face a world of change, the likes of

which we have never known, will end forever.

This, Mr. Speaker, is the meaning of the community school.

No longer the ivory tower. No longer the austere report. No

longer the horror of failing. No longer the drudgery of dry

facts. No longer the false division into grades by age and

ability. The community school is a joy to go to. A place where

young and old alike are happy to spend their time.

Mr. Speaker, as a part of a community educational system, I

would like to go on to place particular emphasis on the

development of educational TV. However, at the outset, I would

like to point out that I do not regard educational TV as just

closed circuit TV within the school, or even just an

educational station such as channel 9 or 10. Rather I see the

use of television as a self-educating system of communication.

That's self-education of the people who participate in

production and in viewing.

I hope to see the day when we have a community — and government — owned and

controlled cable TV system in this province. If properly set up, this new television

network would include the following; A cable TV network link by microwave to

almost all B.C. communities; an ETV system, with production facilities that

would provide high quality educational programmes for the entire province. Head

ends — that's direct inputs where you can produce your own programmes — would

be located in the schools and in community centres; or preferably in the community

schools that I've just described; and also located in the city hall and other

important community meeting points.

Equipment and training resource centres in each community

using the facilities of the cable school systems would be

developed. Much of this audiovisual equipment already exists in

some schools and communities today. Such a system would allow

the production of cable TV programmes by students and citizens

alike for use in their own communities on local mini-cable

circuits, or for province-wide viewing.

As it is possible to have about 90 channels on a cable, this

system would allow for numerous channels which would be

available to the provincial government, community access for

educational TV, and for general community use.

I'd like to draw your attention to the fact that on Monday

night, on channel 9, the American station, the citizens of

Seattle were able to participate in the first televised hearing

of their city council. The hearing was about: "Who should own,

and who should control cablevision." I am pleased to be able to

say that the citizens overwhelmingly declared their support for

public ownership and control in that area.

I would like to suggest how this can be done. Initially,

this can be done in British Columbia by regulating the existing

cable system through the B.C. Telephone Company which the

government is already committed to nationalizing. The cable

systems are directly dependent upon the telephone company for

their survival; they lease the pole space from B.C. Tel to run

their cables to the community. By regulating the lease

agreements, the government, through the telephone company, can

directly influence the cable system and insist that they

provide a true service channel for the public.

Eventually, with federal government changes, these systems

should be brought under public ownership. In areas where cable

companies do not presently exist, the telephone company could

install cable at the same time as the new telephone lines.

Furthermore, under lease control, the cable could be kept under

public and community ownership.

The basis for building a new communications network which

will support the educational reform in this province exists.

And it can be set up with minimal public expense.

Furthermore, Mr., Speaker, I would like to suggest that if

highways and railways were the infra-structure of the "Bennett

era", then electronic highways will be the infra-structure of

the "socialist era."

Mr. Speaker, while on the topic of education and recreation,

I would also like to suggest that the $10 million recreational

fund should not just apply to community recreational

structures. Unfortunately, recreation in our community and many

of the others throughout the province is sometimes getting over

organized. Many of the young people are dropping

[ Page 438 ]

out of such activities.

In our community we have embarked upon a joint community and

school nature and historical parks programme. Our first such

nature park in Richmond saw 18,000 people use it in its first

year — last year. We have several other nature parks, including

an historical farm site, also being considered. Furthermore,

such services provide jobs for people to develop them and

people to run them. It is my hope that these and other passive

recreational activities might also qualify for this and future

grants.

The $750,000 educational research grant and the $5 million

fund for provincial research and economic studies will help to

fill a very great gap in these areas. Without going into

further detail at this time, I would like to put forward the

idea that part of a $750,000 educational research grant could

be used to start a department or a college of educational

research in this province.

I would also like to suggest that the provincial research

and economic studies fund could be regarded as a start towards

the development of a school of economics here in British

Columbia. Such a school designed along similar lines as the

London School of Economics in England could not only provide

research into standard economic resource use, but also

alternative resource management procedures, such as the

recycling of waste materials, to slow the depletion of both

renewable and non-renewable resources, to help clean up the

environment, and to ensure that resource development is geared

towards the maximum use and quality of products rather than the

maximum profit.

Too long have we allowed for planned obsolescence and the

throw-away profit philosophy to dominate our economic

system.

In this regard, Mr. Speaker, I would also like to suggest

that we start to curb our own wastefulness right here in the

Legislature. Every day, six days a week, 55 MLA's receive five

newspapers a day for a total of 275 newspapers per day; or

1,650 newspapers per week; or 6,600 per month. This amounts to

about 1 ½ to 2 tons per month for the MLA's alone. Consider

the amount of paper products used by all government offices

right here in Victoria. The amount must be staggering — possibly as much as one-half to one ton a day.

When one considers a ton of newspaper is equivalent to about

17 trees, it is easy to see that the provincial government

alone is responsible for the unnecessary destruction of several

thousands of trees every year. Not only that, but collecting

and recycling our waste paper from office areas such as this

would not cost very much and might even be profitable. For

example, a recycling plant in my constituency is paying $12 a

ton for waste newsprint.

I would like to suggest that the government should get into the collection

and recycling business directly and help preserve some of our resources and

help clean up the environment in a positive way.

To start it off, Mr. Speaker, I have brought along some

newspapers that I have collected in my office over the past two

weeks….

AN HON. MEMBER: Isn't that for one day?

MR. STEVES: Two weeks. I'm not sure how much it weighs but

it feels like about 100 lb.

MR. E.O. BARNES (Vancouver Centre): What about your

letters?

MR. STEVES: I haven't even started on the letters yet. And I

would suggest that I am going to be collecting some of this in

my office, and for those who are interested, I will be taking

it out to the recycling depot in Saanich….

MR. CHABOT: It's a good one.

MR. STEVES: It's not bad. Actually, I was involved in

supporting it when it started out. I think that this could be a

start and I think we should take it from there and get into the

recycling business all the way.

MR. BARNES: Right on.

MR. STEVES: I think that the social, the environmental and

even the economic advantages of recycling our resources should

be obvious to all.

I'd like to point out here that I've used the words

"recycling of resources", not the words "recycling of waste

products", because these are our resources that are being

thrown away.

I'm pleased to see that the budget speech mentions the

possibilities of carrying out recycling programmes. I would

like to commend the Finance Minister (Hon. Mr. Barrett) on

budgeting for a 7 per cent reduction on liquefied petroleum

gases and for a similar reduction for natural gas used in the

internal combustion engine. Like recycling, I think this will

be of extreme benefit to the protection of our environment and

our resources.

Opposition Members attacking the 30 per cent increase in

petroleum royalties have failed to note that this decrease in

taxation on natural gas and on propane gases amounts to more

than a 40 per cent decrease on these relatively pollution free

fuels. They cry out about a 30 per cent increase but we are

actually decreasing this fuel by 40 per cent, and there's a

difference for the betterment of the environment of 10

percent.

This is one of the incentives I was talking about in the

throne speech debate — incentives to encourage motorists to

convert their vehicles to natural gas or

[ Page 439 ]

propane use. I'm pleased to see it introduced.

Natural gas, when used in the automobile, can reduce

pollution by 50 to 75 per cent. Even tests by B.C. Hydro using

liquid natural gas have proven it. I ask you to imagine what a

50 to 75 per cent reduction in exhaust emissions would mean in

the Vancouver area, combined with a crack-down on industrial

emissions in that area — the air would be breathable once

again.

And, Mr. Speaker, propane may be even less polluting than

natural gas. In the past few days I have been carrying out some

investigations. The propane companies claim that

carbon-monoxide emissions may be reduced by up to 85 per cent,

and the other by-products of the petroleum gasoline engine are

just not even present. The main waste materials coming from

propane use are only carbon dioxide and water vapour.

I would suggest that conversion to one of these

non-polluting fuels is no idle pipe dream. In Europe, during

gasoline shortages in World War II, thousands of cars were

converted to this type of gas use. Furthermore, if natural gas

conversion proves feasible, we have so much natural gas in this

province that we are exporting two-thirds of it to the United

States at give-away prices. This amount is 264 billion cubic

ft. of gas exported last year. And I would ask: "What better

way to use it than right here in B.C. to help clean up our

environment?"

While investigating costs, Mr. Speaker, I found that the

cost of converting an automobile to propane gas use by

Vancouver area companies ranges from $350 to $450 including the

propane tank.

They stated that natural gas conversion has not yet been

standardized as some people use liquid natural gas in some

areas and some use compressed natural gas. They added that

natural gas use might require a slightly more expensive

double-walled tank. However, Mr. Speaker, as propane and

natural gas cars do not require carburetors and fuel pumps, I

would suggested that the cost of providing pollution-free cars

should be minimal, particularly if it is done during the car

manufacturing process. Mileage from natural gas and propane gas

is similar to that of the gasoline engine, and engine wear has

been determined to be much less.

I would suggest that in addition to the 7 cents reduction

that we have already brought about, other incentives might also

be provided such as a reduction in the registration fee for

converted vehicles — perhaps even a reduction in licensing. A

time should be set — perhaps in one or two years — when all new

vehicles coming into the province should be pollution-free

vehicles, built for gas use and possibly with specialized

mufflers for further reduction of pollutants.

To further implement these proposals I would like to suggest that the existing

natural gas Crown corporation, Red Star, should be expanded to take over all

the existing natural gas wells and transmission pipelines, and enter into the

production and distribution of either liquid or compressed natural gas.

Natural gas depots could be set up throughout the province

and fleets of government vehicles could be converted to show

that we mean business. Initially, perhaps even the buses we now

have on order could be built to use liquid natural gas and save

the cost of later conversion.

Finally, Mr. Speaker, when investigating the conversion

costs I was advised by one company against converting my car at

this time. The reason they gave was that powerful interests are

out to stop the legislation to reduce the propane and gas tax.

I would like to say, Mr. Speaker, that there are also powerful

interests representing the people of this province here in this

Legislature who will see that this legislation goes

through.

Mr. Speaker, for those in the Opposition who decry the fact

that we are increasing the royalties on the worst polluter of

all, petroleum — a rapidly diminishing non-renewable resource — I say, "For shame! May you soak your head in an oil spill and

choke on your own exhaust."

DEPUTY SPEAKER: I recognize the Hon. Member for Kamloops.

MR. G.H. ANDERSON (Kamloops): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I

realize this is Valentine's Day, so I am going to do my best to

see that there will be no mean-mouthing of the official

Opposition while I am speaking today.

As a new Member I listened very closely to the budget

statement of the Minister of Finance and it seems a reasonable

budget to me. Perhaps the House will be surprised to find that

I agree with the Attorney General. I think it is a good budget

and I am going to support it.

AN HON. MEMBER: Oh, no!

MR. G.H. ANDERSON: This comes as a surprise, does it?

MRS. P.J. JORDAN (North Okanagan): Always full of

surprises.

MR. G.H. ANDERSON: There's been a lot of statements and

grumbling from all Opposition Members and several statements in

the Press and over the news media, grumbling in many ways about

the budget, saying it doesn't do this and it doesn't do that,

but really there isn't anything very concrete. It seems to me

that the budget was so neatly wrapped up that no handles were

left for them to grab hold of and twist on and I like to see

this.

[ Page 440 ]

Interjections by some Hon. Members.

MR. G.H. ANDERSON: I think I am going to have to wear my

glasses. This furniture must have been set up for the previous

Minister from Kamloops.

Interjections by some Hon. Members.

MR. G.H. ANDERSON: You like that eh?

There was much reference by the Hon. Member for Oak Bay (Mr.

Wallace) to government enterprise failures in one of our

provinces in Canada. I listened to him with interest for quite

a long time as he claimed one failure after another. I was very

surprised to find out the province he was referring to, because

it sounded to me as if he was referring to the performance of

the past Liberal government in Newfoundland.

Interjections by some Hon. Members.

MR. G.H. ANDERSON: There were monumental failures in

Newfoundland. Certainly they would compare with some of the

ones that were made in Saskatchewan.

I don't think failures are really restricted only to

government enterprise. I have heard of quite a few private

enterprises failing also. One of the things that annoys me

about them is that six months or a year after they have filed

bankruptcy they are back in business again under a different

name which is something I would like to see our Attorney

General's department take a very close look at.

I would like to tell you about one of the industries that

they decided to bring into Newfoundland to put the fishermen to

work in between seasons. They decided that they were going to

put in a plant to make French silk gloves. Now, anyone who is

familiar with the fisheries in Newfoundland knows that they

fish from dories from the age of 16 on. They set their gear by

hand and they haul it by hand. After 15 years or so of this

kind of work you know what their hands would look like, and

these were the hands they were going to put to work making silk

gloves — French silk gloves for ladies to wear. It was one of

the most weird projects I have heard of out of many they had

planned.

But there was one project they had that was a success. I

don't know all the details. I read about it quite a bit in the

Press, and I am not sure if it was the government or if

government Members were carrying it out. This was the rental of

accommodation to the Newfoundland Liquor Commission. This

seemed to be very successful. I don't know if they have it

straightened out yet down there.

I have a lot of admiration for the Tory Member of Parliament for Bonavista-Twillingate.

He must be a "red Tory" because I have listened to him on the television many

times and read some of his statements in the papers. He would welcome any industry

to his riding and he doesn't care if it is socialist, government, private, free

enterprise, any name you want to put on it — they want any kind of an industry

they can get.

I have spent quite a lot of time in the Maritimes and I

think that they have an attitude toward work that we would be

doing ourselves a favour if we adopted in the rest of Canada.

If a man is raised in a small village and loses his job he will

come to work for instance to St. John's probably for more

money, but as soon as a job opens in his home village in many

cases he will go back. The money isn't the interest. His

surroundings, his friends and family are what motivate him.

To illustrate this I would like to tell a story about a

Newfoundlander who was working on a refinery that the company I

used to work for was building in Cape Breton. The foreman

pulled this man aside one day and said to him, "I want to talk

to you for a minute. I hired you a month ago, and every week

it's the same — you're here three days. How come?" "Well, boss," he said, "I just can't get by on two."

This is the kind of attitude I think we are going to have to

adopt with the increasing automation and with a lot of the hard

time-consuming work taken out of modern industry. We are going

to have to decide whether we want to work and support a

section

of our population with our taxes, or whether we are going to

work a shorter work week and share the work with the people

that need it.

I know I can remember the time when I was a young boy of six

or seven years old in Quebec and my father was working 12 hours

a day, six days a week. This was finally reduced to 10 hours,

finally to 8 hours, finally to the 44 hour week. This was a

necessity, I think, because of the hard physical labour

involved and the necessity for the people that were doing the

work.

But what I am talking about now is the social necessity. We

don't have to have a shorter work week because of the health or

physical condition of the workmen. We are going to need it as a

social necessity to fit our young people into our living

today.

So another province that I think the Hon. Member for Oak Bay

should have mentioned was Manitoba, because it seems that they

had a Tory government there for many, many years.

In the last years before their demise, they were busily

trying to give away an enormous

section of the province to

American pulp interests. They were putting through legislation

that was giving money and grants provincially. They were

backing federal grants. There was a gift of timber and all the

concessions that went with it on the Churchill Falls

development. The only thing that saved this situation was the

election of the New Democratic Government in the Province

[ Page 441 ]

of Manitoba.

Every effort was made to block the operation of this plant

to embarrass the new government. They moved fast enough to put

it under trusteeship and bring in the experts that it's

operating now and providing employment for the people of the

north.

The Hon. Member for Oak Bay (Mr. Wallace) also mentioned

inflation and the possible curbing of union wage demands as a

method of curbing this mounting inflation. This is a statement

that we're becoming very used to. It doesn't go down any better

with familiarity but we still don't like it.

I would like to refer to one of the unions that I know of.

It's the tightest closed shop, or one of the tightest closed

shops, we have in the nation. They're in every province. In

this case it was the Saskatchewan Medical Association, and we

have a B.C. Medical Association. They had one of the longest

and most disastrous strikes in Saskatchewan's history. The only

people that suffered were the people of Saskatchewan.

The strike was against Medicare, which would have guaranteed

good, sound, comprehensive medical treatment to all, regardless

of income. They said that the doctors would leave the province.

No doctor would come and practise under a socialist system such

as Medicare. After months and months of problems, the issue was

finally settled. There are more doctors per capita in the

Province of Saskatchewan than there were then.

I feel, Mr. Speaker, after many years in the labour

movement, that the best guarantee of labour peace is some

method of profit sharing by the employees with their employer.

This could be very difficult, I know, but I feel that it could

be worked on a base rate, plus a bonus perhaps, based on the

quarterly statement of the company. Now, they would have to

start keeping only one set of books because, of course, the

figures would have to be checked. But I imagine that for the

sake of labour peace, they would be willing to try a system

like this.

Now, I fished halibut and salmon from 1952 till 1955 — that's four years — on a share basis: sharing in the operating

expenses; sharing in the profit, if any; sharing in the loss,

if any. The system that we knew on the boats that I fished on,

with the many different what we called "crossings" in the boat,

was that when we had the rear crossing or the stern crossing

full, the expenses were paid. After that, one-seventh of the

value of every fish that came over the side, it was mine. I

didn't care if I worked 20 hours a day or 22 hours a day. The

hours weren't important. I was sharing in the action.

There are some trades where this could not be done, but the

work year for the halibut fisherman is very short, even though

his work day is long.

To my knowledge, industrial labour was only offered profit sharing twice in

this province. In both cases, it was in companies that were losing money. But

I think it would be interesting to hear what employer groups might have to say

on this matter of profit sharing, in the search for industrial peace in this

province.

There have been many comments made in the last couple of

days, of course, on socialism. I imagine they will be made for

quite a lot of days to come. I spoke on this free enterprise

hang-up last week, but I feel I would like to repeat part of

what I say by asking: Where have the independent sawmills gone?

Where have the independent grocers gone? Where are the

independent salmon seine boat owners and where are the

independent ranchers who are Canadian?

There are a few, and there are a few privately-owned

businesses, but in most cases it's because some conglomerate

has not found a way to merge them together to make an

attractive enough profit picture to suit them, so until now

they've been left alone.

Most of the good large operating ranches in British Columbia

are owned by either Americans individually or on a corporate

basis. I don't know why they buy so many of them in some cases.

Perhaps for possible tax write-offs in their own country, But

some of them are bought by movie actors, I know. They buy

ranches like they buy shoes once they start to earn a living.

Possibly they're for status symbols. At some Hollywood cocktail

party they can casually mention, "Oh yes, I just bought a ranch

up in Canada."

But in the meantime, they drive the prices so high that too

many ranches are restricted to small 20-to-60-head enterprises

that required the owner to work out to make a living. This is

free enterprise, and some feel that we as a Government should

not interfere. I believe we should interfere, Mr. Speaker. We

should interfere to help those Canadian ranchers and would-be

Canadian ranchers in any way we can to achieve a way of life

that they prize and desire, even if it's at the expense of some

of this out-of-country capital.

Coming from the area I do, I'm glad to see there's more

money going to the Department of Recreation and Conservation. I

feel this has been a sadly neglected department. I particularly

like the $1.25 million plus that goes to the fish and wildlife

branch.

Maybe there's a possibility now that the new hatchery that's

been building so long at Abbotsford will be finished — maybe

sooner than we dared hope — and we can look forward to better

stocking of our fishing lakes in the interior. I know that

there are many fish farmers in British Columbia and they're

ready and willing to assist the government by hatching the

fertilized eggs and rearing the fish to any size required by

the government, all on a contract basis. If the hatchery is

built, if it's big enough for the egg production, there are — shall I say — free enterprise fish farmers who will carry on

the rest of the work on a contract basis.

[ Page 442 ]

We'd no longer have to import fry and fingerlings from other

provinces or the United States. We could raise all our own.

But I know that money is not the total answer. I have hunted

in the past and I feel we have to be more strict with our

hunting regulations. I feel we must shorten the season and

issue fewer game tags. I have heard of cases — I don't know the

individuals who are concerned — in Kamloops area a few years

back, when it was three tags per hunter, where one man would go

out and before the season was half over, would have killed

three deer and brought them home. Then he would take his wife

down to get a licence and three more tags and take her out on

the weekend to get three more. I don't know of one family in

Kamloops that could eat six deer in one winter.

To me that's hunting for the sake of hunting or butchering

for the sake of butchering. I don't think it has any place in

the sport fishing or sport hunting in this province.

I did live for 12 years — and a lot of my family are still

there — about 12 miles west of Ottawa. Mostly it's dairy

farming country. It's been settled for many, many years — when

it was Upper Canada. Fifteen miles from our national capital

hunters still get deer during the hunting season. They have a

season that's eight days long and one deer per hunter. To my

way of thinking there's nothing wrong with a regulation like

this. Just this short distance from our national capital, by

proper regulation and proper management of the game, there can

still be deer taken and deer seen by tourists and drivers

during the summer — people out on picnics or on the bank of the

river.

If we want deer and moose, and if we want grouse and ducks

to hunt for sport and variety of diet, we've got to tighten up

the regulations. They're beautiful to see when you take your

family out for a drive to the lake, but they're seldom seen now

except in very remote areas that are hard to get at.

I see by the budget that the highways department is to get

$33.5 million more than before. I'm glad to see the highways

Minister (Hon. Mr. Strachan) is here because we can use a

little of that money in the Kamloops area, Mr. Minister.

Interjections by some Hon. Members.

MR. G.H. ANDERSON: In meeting people here for the first time — and many of them from my own party — they say, "Oh, you're

representing Kamloops. You have a perfect riding then.

Everything's been beautifully looked after." Well, friend of

mine, it just ain't so. (Laughter.)

We have 26,000 people living on the north side of the

Thompson River, and the employment is on the south side. They

have to drive across what is a two-lane bridge — actually a

one-lane bridge, because there's another access to it and six

blocks along one street. It's a permanent bottleneck — and not only cars.

This is the only route for the gas and oil trucks for the

refinery; it's the only route for the chip trucks, which are

like two boxcars hooked together with a truck on the front; and

logging trucks coming in from the hills; and buses.

HON. R.M. STRACHAN (Minister of Highways): Why did the city

develop that shopping centre and city hall right at that

bridge?

MR. G.H. ANDERSON: I think that after some of the comments

that have been made on amalgamation that the Hon. Minister of

Highways is aware of some of the why's of some of the things

that were done in Kamloops, but the rest of the why's

none of us will ever know.

This bridge some years ago was impassable for six to seven

hours. No one could cross because of a warehouse fire at the

south end under an approach. We wondered at the time: What

would happen if someone wanted to get to the hospital in an

ambulance or an accident situation or sickness. There could be

tragedy. Someone could be hurt badly or die. We have to have

another way of getting across these waterways.

We can go 14 miles north, of course, and take a

current-operated ferry and then come the 14 miles back — but it

could be too long. We need about 14 miles of the Yellowhead

Highway straightened and upgraded. And since we happen to be on

the Yellowhead Highway, I have to commend the previous

government for its construction. It's an excellent highway from

Heffley Creek to the Alberta border. But there's about 10 miles

between the Indian Reserve and Heffley Creek that are crooked,

dangerous and badly in need of upgrading. I think, Mr. Speaker,

that some of the extra money in highways could be used for

this.

I think that we can have a different system of highway

building than in the past. There's a road that crosses from

Little Fort to the Cariboo — and the Hon. Member for Cariboo

(Mr. Fraser) is quite familiar with it. It resembles a goat

track, it's so narrow and crooked. No truckers will go into the

area to haul cattle to the Kamloops auction. They have to go

all the way around by Cache Creek. It's very seldom graded and

I have been told by some ranchers that when they're driving out

at night that they can see their own tail lights on some of the

bends, because they're so sharp.

There are resorts being built in there. There are tourists who want to get

into the area. Some of them are going into the area now, because you see, the

Socreds had a good idea about this road. They put a sign at each end that said,

"British Columbia Provincial Highway No. 24," and the tourists believed this,

you see. And they're several miles in on this road

[ Page 443 ]

before they realize that

the only thing to do is get turned around and come back out.

Now this would be an expensive project. I know it would. And

I'm not asking for it to be done tomorrow. But I would like to

start in the late spring perhaps.

AN HON. MEMBER: After they finish Yukon.

MR. G.H. ANDERSON: Education. Well, this is really

something, too, for people who think that everything is

wonderful in the Kamloops riding.

We have a situation up there where the federal government

owned a large piece of land known as the "navy dump",

Department of National Defence land — and they sold this land

to the provincial government when they needed it no longer. So

then Cariboo College was put on this public works land. The

Department of Education operates the college; the Department

of Public Works owns and operates the grounds; the Public Works

does the maintenance work, the janitor work. If they want a new

light bulb they have to get in touch with Public Works; the

classrooms can't be cleaned at night because the Department of

Education doesn't have shift janitors there.

It was hard to believe, but this happened a couple of years

ago shortly after the college was first opened. And they wanted

a telephone for the bursar. It took five months to get a

telephone, because it had to be approved by Public Works down

here in Victoria.

They planted grass last spring, because the grounds had

never been landscaped. It grew well, but they never cut it. It

got hip-deep and dried and turned into a fire hazard.

It is said that when the academic and vocational meld can be

completed, then there would be changes made. This was some

years ago I heard this. But the academic and vocational changes

at that particular college could be made any time. The meld is

excellent. The rapport between the academic and the vocational

sections of the college couldn't be better.

The college needs enough land, when the changeover is made,

to plan for the future.

For some reason or other there seems to have been — I don't

know if it's still in existence — an advisory board on courses

for vocational or community colleges. They decided in their

wisdom last year to cut out the beef production course at a

college that's right in the centre of the beef-raising

community. If a student wants to take a beef production course

now, he has to go to Dawson Creek — with the travel, room and

board and extra expenses that it involves — when he is in the

centre of the cattle country and has a college in the centre of

the cattle country that he lives in. I believe this course

should be reinstated.

One thing I was very impressed with in the Department of Education was when

they announced the appointment of Chief Charles Draney of the Deadman Creek

Indian Band to the Board of Governors of this Cariboo College. He has been active

in getting the residential schools removed from his reserve so that the children

could be bused to town and take their education with white children that they're

going to have to live and work with in the future. He's always been interested

in education and I'm certain he is going to do a good job.

Another thing I have to do is talk to him when I go back.

He's been re-elected every two years for 10 years. So I think I

should get a few lessons from him — talk over my own future

with him.

But we haven't only got colleges in the area. We've got

quite a few one and two room schools with a teacher teaching

from grade 1 to 6, and they are having some problems too.

They're quite far out in the country — gravel roads, some

without power and have to generate their own — and they're

causing quite a few headaches.

We have quite a large riding in Kamloops, but some of the

smallest polling districts — 18 voters in a poll. So you hardly

have a giant rally after you drive 35 miles over a gravel road

to visit a poll with 18 voters.

Health services and hospitalization. Some more money in this

area. I'm glad to see that there's several million more,

because we've got a real problem with hospital services in the

Kamloops area. I don't know all the reasons; I only know a few.

But there's been an addition planned to Royal Inland Hospital

that's been in the works for five or more years at the present

time. Yet nothing has been done to start on the foundations or

any of the construction. The problem could be the local board,

B.C.H.I.S., the previous Minister, or a combination of both.

But the cost of the finished addition seems to go up $1

million per year. So if we wait very much longer, we're not

going to be able to afford a hospital at all.

We have a situation where the waiting list for elective

surgery varies between 500 and 800 and where some not so

serious surgery is being done in the hallways. There's only one

access to the hospital from a busy intersection. One overturned truck at the bottom of this hill where the intersection is

could block entrance and stop ambulances or any in-and-out

traffic. We've got to have second access.

So when people say to me, "Well, you must have a good

riding; everything must be well looked after there," as

you can see, it isn't. It isn't the correct story. nursing

homes of the type that we had in

One thing I would like to see the Department of Health

Services in is nursing homes of the type that we had in Ontario for patients who are not seriously sick or who have

recovered from an operation and simply need a week or two to

mend where they can get care. The greatest problem we have in

Kamloops is that every bed operated by B.C.H.I.S. is acute.

What we

[ Page 444 ]

need is a plain nursing home where a doctor can be called if

required and where a patient can get enough attention for

relatively mild illnesses or operation recoveries.

There's been talk about secondary industry. Everyone agrees

with the concept and we all know it's badly needed to improve

employment. This is why I am looking forward to the carrying

out of one of our election pledges: to have the B.C.

Development Corporation to develop some of the resources of

this province and to process some of the products of the

primary industries.

Time is important. Unemployment could rise beyond what it is

now for any reason — which we probably would have no control

over — but we could provide new work in this manner if we get

going quickly enough in this direction.

Why we haven't got secondary industry I'm sure I don't know.

There's talk about distance to markets, differentials in

freight rates and things of this sort.

I have several friends in the Norwegian community in

Kamloops and they have been away from the old country 25 to 30

years. In the last few years some of them have gone home to

visit. Many of them were raised on farms. Norway is

concentrating very strongly now on grains and cereals rather

than dairy products, and importing these from Denmark.

But these friends visited their boyhood farms, and in

looking over the farm and the equipment, they find that there

were combines being used on Norwegian farms manufactured in

Norway. Little Norway, with a population of not 3 million

people or just slightly over — it's around that area — can

manufacture combines for their own use and export. Up until now

we haven't been able to. There's got to be some reason for

this.

Something else they report on is that the senior citizens'

homes in Norway are not built as the great mausoleums and

storage areas for senior citizens. They build them in their

villages and towns or in the cities, in their own

neighbourhoods, where senior citizens can be with their friends

and their old acquaintances.

I support my colleague from Delta (Mr. Liden) in his call

for a ministry of fisheries. I know that the federal government

spends a lot of money and a lot of effort in the area of

fishery management off the coast. They certainly did a

creditable job on bringing back the halibut after it had been

almost depleted.

What we need is a provincial department of fisheries to

supplement the federal programmes and to develop new ones that

are relative to British Columbia and by people who are on top

of the problem and more aware of what is going on.

There is much expertise that is available. I would like to see it used in this

department. This department could probably handle the funds my colleague was

talking about to allow fishermen to buy the boats from the companies that they

work for or to get new boats built for their use.

Some of the best news to me is the beginning of the land

accumulation for land banks. After seeing the unregulated and

cancerous growth of the Kamloops area with no planning — a

hodge-podge affair of one community leaping over the other with

very little space in between — we find that this system won't

work. There has to be control; there has to be planning.

I feel that the best way that this can be done is for the

Department of Municipal Affairs to buy land and lease it out

and get some of the speculators out of the market that have

been robbing us for so many years. I say "robbing" quite

knowingly because that is what they have been doing.

I hope that very soon our government will follow the example

of the Government of Manitoba and go extensively into the

public housing field. This was well written up in a

well-researched

article in the Vancouver Province last

year. I wish I had it with me — I could give the date and page

and writer — but it's certainly in the files.

They detailed how many units were built and how they were

being operated — scattered around the cities. Not only low

income housing — someone earning $200 a month would pay $36 a

month in rent; someone earning $500 a month would pay $135 in

rent. This is the way it should be: a mixture of those who have

trouble renting a premise and people who can afford other

accommodation, but if this is good enough, will go there.

It doesn't matter if it takes 25 or 30 years to pay it off;

it's in the black. The government is the owner. The building is

all done by, once again, free enterprise but well-inspected by

government inspectors to see that quality comes for the dollars

spent. They are staying away from the building of ghettos such

has been the result in Vancouver in the Raymur area that I have

heard so much about and visited on occasion.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: I recognize the Hon. First Member for Vancouver – Little

Mountain.

MS. P.F. YOUNG