Manitoba Hansard — 11 December 1991 (Sitting 5, 35th Legislature, 3rd Session)

35-3-5

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 Third Session • Thirty-Fifth Legi slature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 40 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honoursble Denis C. Rocsn Spesker VOL. XLI No . 5 • 1 :30 p.m., WEDN ESDAY, DECEMBER 11 , 1991 Printed by the Offloe of the Q.-ns Printer, Protl#nce of Manitoba ISSN 0542-5492

MA N ITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature LIB - Liberal ; NO- New Democrat; PC - Progressive Conservative NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CARR, James CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHEEMA, Guizar CHOMIAK, Dave CONNERY, Edward CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HARPER, Elijah HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEUFELD, Harold, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann CONSTITUENCY Osborne Thompson Wellington Crescentwood River Heights Radisson The Maples Kildonan Portage Ia Prairie Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Rupertsland Gimli Point Douglas Inkster The Pas St. Norbert Elmwood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Rossmere Pembina Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Flin Flon La Verendrye Fort Garry St. Johns Swan River PARTY.

LIB NO NO LIB LIB NO LIB NO PC PC PC PC NO NO PC PC PC LIB PC PC NO NO PC PC NO LIB PC NO PC NO LIB NO PC NO PC NO PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NO PC NO PC PC PC PC NO PC NO PC PC NO NO

168 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MA NI TOBA Wednesday, December 11, 1991 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS REA DING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Mr. Speaker: The honourable member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine), I have reviewed the petition and it conforms with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Mr. Clerk (William Remnant) : To the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba.

The petition of the undersigned, The Salvation Army Grace General Hospital, humbly sheweth: THAT The Salvation Army Grace General Hospital Incorporation Act be amended to reflect the amalgamation of the Governing Council of The Salvation Army, Canada East, with the Governing Council of The Salvation Army, Canada West and forming the Governing Council of The Salvation Army in Canada, and further to permit The Salvation Army Grace General Hospital to own and/or operate one or more elderly and infirm persons' housing accommodations as referred to in The Elderly and Infirm Persons' Housing Act, including a personal care home or homes, and to reflect the current organizational structure.

WHEREFORE your petitioner humbly prays that the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba may be pleased to pass

an act for the purposes above mentioned. AND as in duty bound your petitioner will ever pray. PRESEN TING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIA L CO MMITTEES Mr. Leonard Evans (Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the First Report of the committee on Public Accounts. Mr. Clerk (William Remnant): Your St anding Comm ittee on Public Accounts presents the following as its First Report.

Your committee met on Tuesday, January 29, 19 91 , at 10 a.m., and Wednesday, January 30, 1991 at 2 p.m . in Room 255 of the Legislative Building to consider Volumes 1 and2 of the Public Accounts for the fiscal year ended March 31 , 19 89, the Provincial Auditor's Report and Supplement for the fiscal year ended March 31 , 1989 and the Provincial Auditor's Report for the fiscal year ended March 31 , 19 90.

Your committee also met on Thursday, April 4, 19 91 , at 10 a.m. to consider the aforementioned reports and Volume 3 of the Public Accounts for the fiscal year ended March 31 , 1989, and Volumes 1, 2 and 3 of the Public Accounts for the fiscal year ended March 31 , 19 90. Your committee also met on December 10 , 19 91 , at 10 a.m . to consider all of the aforementioned reports and the Supplement to the Provincial Auditor's Report for the fiscal year ended March 31 , 1990. On January29, 19 91 , your committee elected Mr. Evans (Brandon East) as its Chairperson.

On January 29, 19 91 , your comm ittee accepted the resignations of Mr. Sveinson, Mrs. Vodrey, Mr. McAlpine, Mrs. Render, Hon. Mr. Neufeld and Hon. Mr. Orchard as members of the committee, and elected Mrs. Mcintosh, Mr. Reimer, Mr. Helwer, Mr. Laurendeau, Hon. Mr. Downey and Hon. Mrs. Mitchelson to replace them. On January 30, 19 91 , your committee accepted the resignations of Hon. Mrs. Mitchelson, Mrs. Mcintosh and Mr. Helwer as members of the committee and elected Mr. Rose, Hon. Mr. Neufeld and Hon. Mr. Orchard to replace them.

Your committee received all information desired by any member at the January 29, January 30, April 4 and December 10 , 19 91 , meetings from the Minister of Finance, staff from the Department of Finance, and from Mr. Fred Jackson, Provincial Auditor. Mr. Stan Puchniak, Assistant Deputy Minister, provided information at the January 29 and 30, 19 91 , meetings. Mr. Rick Mayer, Director of Special Audits, provided information at the January 29, 19 91 , meeting. Mr. Charlie Curtis, Deputy Minister of the Department of Finance provided information at the April 4 and December 1 0, 19 91 ,

16 9 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA December 11 , 19 91 meetings. Ms. Carol Bellringer, Assistant Provincial Auditor, and Mr. Warren Johnson, Director of Professional Practices, provided information at the December 10 , 19 91 , meeting. Information was provided with respect to the receipts, expenditures and other matters pertaining to the business of the province. The fullest opportunity was accorded to all members of the committee to examine vouchers or any documents called for and no restriction was placed upon the line of examination.

Your comm ittee finds that the receipts and expenditures of the monies have been carefully set forth and all monies properly accounted for.

At the December 10 , 19 91 , meeting, your committee adopted the following motion: "THAT the Public Accounts Committee adopt in principle the following recommendations of the Provincial Auditor for use in the operations of the Public Accounts Committee: 1) That the Committee, to be most effective, carry out its responsibilities on a more timely basis 2) That the Committee consider adopting a working agenda 3) that notice of factual questions which require reasonably detailed answers to be raised at committee meetings should be provided in advance of the meeting whenever possible. • Your committee has considered Volumes 1 , 2 and 3 of the Public Accounts for the fiscal years ended March 31 , 19 89, and March 31 , 1990, and the Report of the Provincial Auditor and Supplements for the fiscal years ended March 31 , 1989 and 19 90, and has adopted the same as presented.

All of which is respectfully submitted. Mr. Leonard Evans: I move, seconded by the honourable member for Rupertsland (Mr. Harper) , that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, over the last two days I attended the Council of Ministers of Education meeting and for the information of members in this House, I would like to table a communique on student financial assistance. Hon.

Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): I have the pleasure of tabling several reports: the Manitoba Lotteries Foundation Annu al Report for 19 90-91 ; the Freedom of Information Act Annual Report for 19 90; the Manitoba Centennial Centre Corporation Annual Report for 19 90-91 ; the Manitoba Advisory Council on the Status of Women Annual Report for 19 90-91 ; and the Annual Report for 19 90-91 for the Centre Culture! Franco-Manitobain. IN TRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 9- The Economic Innovation and Technology Council Act Hon.

Gary Fllmon (Premier): I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Rural Development (Mr. Downey), that Bill 9, The Economic Innovation and Technology Council Act;

Loi sur le Conseil de !'innovation economique et de Ia technologie, be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time. His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor, having been advised of the conten ts of this bill, recommends it to the House. Motion agreed to. Mr. Speaker: The honourable First Minister has tabled the report. * (1 335) Bill 2- The Environmental Bill of Rights Ms. Marianne Cerllll (Radisson): I move that Bill 2, The Environmen tal Bill of Rights; Code de protection de l'environnement, be introduced and that the same be now received and read for the first time.

I would also like to take the opportunity to describe the principles of the bill. It will be seconded by the member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale). Motion presented. Ms. Ce rllll: The principles behind this bill are that the public has the right to a healthy environment, and also that the public has the right to access the courts and tribunals, including the right to sue polluters to protect the environment. We need to have increased public participation in environmental decision making, that incr eased gove rnment responsibility and accountability for the environment

December 11 , 19 91 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMB LY OF MAN ITOBA 170 are required and that greater protection for employees who blow the whistle on polluting employers is required. This bill will ensure that residents and citizens of the province of Manitoba have the right to clean air, water and land. Motion agreed to. Bill 5- The Manitoba Advisory Council on the Status of Women Amend ment Act Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister respo nsible for the Status of Women): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer), that Bill 5, The Manitoba Advisory Council on the Status of Women Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur le Conseil consu ltatif mani tobain de Ia situation de Ia femme, be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. Bill 6- The Denturlsts Amendment Act Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): move, seconded by the Minister of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Driedger), that Bill 6, The Denturists Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les denturologistes, be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. BIII7-The Real Property Amendment Act Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General) : Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness), that Bill 7, The Real Property Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les biens n�els, be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. Bill 8- The Garnishment Amendment Act Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I move, seconded by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness), that Bill 8, The Garnishment Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia saisie-arret, be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. • (1 340) Blll1 0- The Manitoba Hydro Amendment Act Hon. Harold Neufeld (Minister responsible for The Manitoba Hydro Act): I move, seconded by the Mi nister of Gove rnmen t Services (Mr. Ducharme), that Bill 10 , The Manitoba Hydro Amendment Act; Loi mo difiant Ia

Loi sur !'Hydro-Manitoba, be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time. His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor, having been advised of the conte nts of this bill, recommends it to the House. I also table the Lieutenant-Governor's report. Motion agreed to. BIII11-The Bee-Keepers Repeal Act Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture) : Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns), that Bill 11, The Bee-Keepers Repeal Act; Loi abrogeant Ia

Loi sur les apiculteurs, be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. 811112- The Animal Husbandry Amendment Act Hon. Glen Findlay {Minister of Agriculture) : Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Rur al Development (Mr. Downey), that Bill 12 , The Animal Husbandry Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur l'elevage, be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. BIII14-The Highways and Transportation Department Amendment Act Hon. Albert Driedger {Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard), that Bill 14 , The Highways and Transportation Department Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur le ministere de Ia Voirie et du Trans port, be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to •

17 1 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MAN ITOBA December 11 , 19 91 811121-The Provincial Park Lands Amendment Act Hon. Ha rry Enns (Minis ter of Na tural Resources): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Labour (Mr. Praznik), that Bill 21, The Provincial Park Lands Amendment Act, Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les pares provinciaux, be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. Bill 22- The Lodge Operators and Outfitters Ucenslng and Consequential Amendments Act Hon. Har ry Enns (Min ister of Na tural Resources) : Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Findlay), that Bill 22, The Lodge Operators and Outfitters Licensing and Consequential Amendments Act;

Loi sur les perm is relatifs aux exploitants de camps de chasse et de piche et aux pourvoyeurs et apportant des modifications correlat ives a d' aut res dispositions legislatives, be introduced and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery where we have with us today 20 parents and students from the Manitoba Association for Schooling at Home. They are under the direction of Judy Andrich. Also, from the Arborg Collegiate we have forty-two Grade 9 students.

They are under the direction of Tara Kozub. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Interlake (Mr. Clif Evans). Also, from the R. B. Russell Vocational School we have twenty-six Grade 12 students. They are under the direction of Mrs. Anne Laymen and Mr. Gerry Hays. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes). From the St. George School we have thirty-five Grade 9 students. They are under the direction of Clint Harvey. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for St. Vital (Mrs. Render).

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here this afternoon. • (1 345) ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Education System Funding Formula Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, we have been outlining the job losses in the Manitoba economy over the last few days, in the private sector the construction jobs, the retail jobs, transportation jobs. The private sector is not the only place where employment is going down in our province.

Indeed, in the public sector employment opportunities are going down for Manitobans and in spite of the flowery words from the Speech from the Throne where the government says many improvements have been made in Manitoba's education system, we have now learned that up to 300 teachers and positions for education have been lost since the majority government under the funding formulas announced by the provincial government last year, and hundreds of other positions have been lost in our public education system, positions that are investment in our future and an investment in our youth.

I would ask the Premier how is he going to make up for the losses in the last year in terms of employment and investment in our youth in terms of the education system, and what will the policies of the government be in funding our education system for 19 92 7 They are in a crisis situation, Mr. Speaker, and we would ask the Premier what type of leadership will he be providing for our youth and for our future. Hon. Gary Fllm on (Premi er) : Mr.

Speak er , throughout the period of time that we have been in government, going on four years now, we have attempted to fund the public school system to levels that were commensurate with the ability of the taxpayer of Manitoba to be able to meet the needs in education. I might say that in the first three budgets we brought in they were consistently well above the rate of inflation, our increases to the public school system.

In addition to that, of course, we faced some very, very difficult choices last year, choices that were pressed upon us as a result of reduction in cash transfers from Ottawa, choices that were brought upon us as a result of the loss of

December 11, 19 91 LEGISL ATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 17 2 revenue to the provincial government with the recession. We made some difficult choices but at the same time were able to pass along an increase of about 3 percent to public school funding in this province. Under those circumstances, of course, that may not be as much as some would have chosen, Mr. Speaker. The fact of the matter is that we have to live within the means that are available to us. The alternative to that, of course, would be to do what the opposition party, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Doer), would have us do and that is to raise taxes. Raising taxes would only make it more difficult on people in our economy and would have resulted in more job losses. We did not want to face that kind of circumstance. I know that higher taxes are a cradle of the New Democratic Party, Mr. Speaker, and they have proven in the past with the substantial job destruction that they wrecked upon this province in the 1980s that those policies do not work. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, that is a very, very long non-answer to the question dealing with education funding. Mr.

Speak er, this First Minister and his government front benches have been telling us in the Speech from the Throne and in questions we have been asking about the economy all week, that happy days are here again. The growth is going to be 4 percent next year, and Manitoba is in great shape. •

(1350) Mr. Speaker, I have a letter in my hand addressed from his Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach) telling the school divisions again that the recession is going to last. We are not having the recovery that we had predicted. He is also advising all school boards in Manitoba to expect no further funding increases for the next fiscal and school year. I would ask the Premier what impact will that again have on the taxation levels for families, on the education and quality education levels in the education system?

This is the largest crisis we have ever had, and the Premier is going to exasperate it with another year of zero funding to the education system. Mr. Fllmon: Well, actually, Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition is going to exasperate me. The fact of the matter is that we are attempting to be a very open government. We are laying before the people of this province in the sectors that have to make decisions as much information as we can provide them with as they plan for their budget procedures. The Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Doer) can appreciate that when the government passes along a 3 percent increase in funding for public schools and the public schools choose to increase the salary levels of their teachers by 5 percent and 6 percent, that creates a pressure on the system. That pressure likely results in jobs being lost as local school boards have to make decisions to downsize, because they cannot live within that pressure between the increases that we are passing along and the increases that they are giving to their teaching staff.

In those circumstances, we felt that it was important to share with the school divisions as much information as we could about our budgetary forecast so that they would be better able to plan for the forth coming budget year, and in their negotiations with their staff and with their teachers be prepared for the kind of increase in expenditure and increase in funding that we could pass along. We feel that is open government, good planning, and an opportunity to share with these local governments as much information as possible. Mr. Doer: Mr.

Speaker, I find it rather ironic when I look back in 1982 at the Premier's comments expressing dismay at a 12.9 percent increase and saying that is not enough in the public education system. Now the Premier, today, is standing up in the House and saying that he is supporting a zero percent grant to the school divisions. Can he explain to the people of Manitoba, how many teachers are we going to lose, how many support staff are we going to lose, what is going to be the deterioration in our public education system as a result of two years of funding freezes, in essence, with the school divisions?

How much more of a crisis can we take with our young people and our education system before the Premier stands up to his Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach) who has let down the total province in terms of education policy in this province? Mr. Fllmon: Mr. Speaker, as I in dicated, our increase in expenditures in public schools last year was 3 percent, which I might say exceeded the 2 percent increase which the New Democratic government in 1986 with the member for Flin Flon

17 3 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 11 , 19 91 (Mr. Storie) as the Minister of Education-they passed along a 2 percent increase to school divisions at a time when their revenues were increasing, I might say, at three and four times that rate. They did that kind of expenditure control and priority choosing. The fact of the matter is that we will do everything we can to work co-operatively with school boards to make sure that we let them know what circumstances face us and what circumstances we have to do in order to live within our means, because the last thing we want to do, Mr.

Speaker, is to pass along massive increases in taxation. That is what the New Democrats did throughout the 1980s. That is something that could only hurt the economy and the individual taxpayer, and we do not want to do that. Universities Funding Formula Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Education recently wrote to all university presidents indicating that there will be no increase in funding next year. Between 1979 and 1991, full-time students in the Faculty of Arts at the University of Manitoba increased by 1 08 percent. Part-time students increased by 66 percent.

The number of faculty members has declined by 8.3 percent. Class sizes of 200 to 300 are common, and libraries and essential services have been severely cut. My question to the Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach) is: How does the government defend this situation, and more importantly, how does it expect to attract and retain the knowledge-based industries when it withdraws support from the universities, the essential infrastructure of its economic strategy? ..

(1355) Hon. Leonard Derkach {Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, I guess it is fair to say that universities, our public school system and those who are involved in such things as teacher negotiations, staff negotiations want to know the ballpark of the type of funding they might be looking forward to in the coming year. When we did not signal any kind of a ballpark figure, indeed we were criticized that we were not sending out those signals early enough so that institutions such as universities and our public school system could not make the adjustments in the best timing. Mr.

Speaker, we have tried to indicate to the institutions at the post-secondary level at our school system as to the fiscal situation that our province is facing and that indeed, in that way, they can make their decisions based on the realities that this province faces today. Ms.

Friesen: What advice does the Minister of Education have for the young Manitobans at the University of Manitoba who, as a result of last year's funding, found that 1 , 1 00 students were turned away from first-year English, 617 students were turned away from first-year Psychology, 568 turned away from first-year Sociology, the foundation courses for the graduates in the social sciences and humanities? Mr. Derkac h: Mr.

Speaker, it is true that the enrollment at our universities has increased since last year, increased substantially.! have to also say that over 80 percent of our costs in education are personnel expenses. The money that goes to universities, a large amount of it, will find its way into salaries, but we have a fiscal reality before this province. Indeed the EPF transfers from the federal government have been diminishing, and this has created a great deal of pressure on us as a province. Mr.

Spe aker, because of those rea liti es, provinces throughout this country have met, as Ministers of Education, in the last two days to try and deal with the whole situation of student financial assistance and to impress upon our federal government that we have to update those financial assistance programs that have not been updated since 1984, and it is for that reason that I tabled that communique today to ensure that there is solidarity behind all the ministers of education in this country to impose upon the federal government the importance of post-secondary education in this country . Ms. Friesen: Mr.

Speaker, is the minister aware that, if he proceeds with the zero percent increase to the University of Manitoba, the Arts faculty alone must absorb a $1.3 million cut, and that Manitobans face the very real probability that the last remaining open faculties in this province will close their doors to our high school graduates? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, at each level of government, whether it is at the school board level or at the university level, there are some very difficult decisions that have to be made in times of economic restraint like we are living through. Those decisions

December 11, 19 91 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 17 4 have to be those of the local institutions and the local school boards. Priorities have to be set, carefully weighed, and then programs implemented that will complement those kinds of priorities that have been set by the institutions and by school boards. Social Assistance Abuse Rate Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Shortly after taking office, this government ordered a number of studies that were given out by way of untendered contract to firms such as Stevenson Kellogg Ernst & Whinney.

One of those studies was a review of the social assistance program, and it found, Mr. Speaker, that there was a possibility of an abuse rate of less than 1 percent. On the basis of that study, can the Minister of Finance tell us today what new information he has which would lead him to believe that people are collecting welfare when they could be working? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, there is no new information to add to the conclusions as found in that report at all.

There was never any question in the mind of the government with respect to the findings of that particular review almost three years ago, and the state has not changed as of today. Economic Growth Employment Creation Strategy Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, will the Minister of Finance now admit clearly to the House that those people who find themselves regrettably on welfare are there because of this government's economic policies which are not creating jobs? *

(1400) Hon. Clayton Man ness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I totally and categorically reject the conclusion reached by the Leader of the Liberal Party. Nothing is further from the truth. I take from the member's assertion that indeed what this government should be doing is going hundreds of millions of dollars further into debt in trying to buy wealth and job creation. That is an approach that has virtually bankruptthe nation. That has found to be not working. Indeed, sound economic foundations are built when discipline and good management exists.

That is what this government is providing to the people of this province. Social Assistance Employment Training Programs Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): One of those sound foundations surely the minister refers to is the upgrading of skills. Can the Minister of Finance explain why his governme nt chooses to cut funding from single-parent mothers on welfare who are trying to go to school and puts a freeze on funding of students who are disabled as of now so that they cannot continue programs beginning in February? Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services) : Mr.

Speaker, we have, within the Department of Family Services, a number of programs which assist recipients to find training and eventually get into the job market. Through our HROCs and HROPs, thro ugh the Gate way program, through the Single Parent Job Access Program and through the COPE program, we are providing opportunities for these people to enter the job market. I think what the member is alluding to is the fact that we have a budget line which provides for education and training for a number of our recipients. That budget line is in excess of $1 .7 million.

We have indicated to some who have been on a waiting list that we have expended a portion of that. We have committed the rest of it for the rest of this particular year, and we will have a new intake period starting with the new budget. Education System Program Reductions Mr. Dave Chomlak (KIIdonan): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Education and Training. In the new no-name funding model, the model that is approved by absolutely no one in the education community, the minister talked about the rich school divisions giving up at the expense of other school divisions.

Can the minister outline what rich programs these school divisions will give up, in light of the fact that last year these eight school divisions in the city of Winnipeg lost between them 118 jobs? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): It has been more than the three years that I have been in this portfolio that there has

175 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 11 , 19 91 been a cry for a new funding formula for school divisions in this province. In announcing the new funding formula for the province, I might say that the response and the reaction has been very positive. I might say that the member opposite the critic for Education for the NDP criticized us for the lack of funding to Winnipeg No. 1 last year constantly. This formula puts more money into the Winnipeg No. 1 school division, which that member has not said a word about since then. Mr.

Speaker, the new funding formula also addresses the issues of special needs, of counselling, of library services, services which were not being funded before. To assist those school divisions that may not be receiving increases, the government of this province has put in $12 million to phase in the impact of the funding formula as 'fie II. Taxation Level Increase Mr. Dave Chomlak {KIIdonan): The minister is aware that they will get zero like everyone else this year. Mr.

Speaker, my supplementary question to the minister is: Will there be another 1 0 percent tax increase at the local level this year as there was last year as a result of this minister and this government offloading onto school divisions? Point of Order Hon. Clayton Manne ss {Government House Leader) : Mr. Speaker, that question is a budgetary matter. The budget has not been developed and I consider the question highly out of order. Mr. Speaker: The honourable government House leader does not have a point of order. *** Hon. Leonard Derkach {Minister of Education and Training): Mr.

Speaker, in announcing the new funding formula in terms of the benefits to taxpayers, I might say that this government moved to remove one mill off the provincial ESL for all taxpayers in this province. That is a benefit to all taxpayers in Manitoba and will be an additional draw on general revenue of $10.5 million in the first year of the program. That is a direct benefit to the taxpayers of this province. Program Reductions Mr.

Dave Chomlak {KIIdonan) : My final supplementary to the minister is: Can the minister outline where the rich programs are and what programs are going to be cut as a result of this inequitable funding formula that the minister has put in place together with this whole six pages of information about it? Hon. Leonard Derkach {Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, those are priorities that school divisions set. Local school divisions have not given up their local autonomy as yet, as I understand it, in this province.

Indeed, it is their responsibility to determine what educational priorities they have within their divisions and then on that basis to decide the kind of special levy that they will set within their own school division areas. Manitoba Liquor Control Commission Senior Employee Salary Review Mr. Jerry Storie {FIIn Flon): Mr. Speaker, this government often talks about restraint but it does not practise it very often when it is dealing with its senior management, presidents and CEOs of Crown corporations, its friends.

Some time ago literally some tens of thousands of civil servants across the province were forced to take zero percent increase at the same time colleagues around them were losing their jobs and their workload was increasing. Mr. Speaker, my question is to the minister responsible for the Manitoba Liquor Commission. Can the minister explain to the people of Manitoba why senior management at the Liquor Commission can receive a 25 percent increase on a $60,000 base salary while other civil servants earning $15,000 are required to take zero? Hon.

Linda Mcintosh (Minister charged with the administration of The Liquor Control Act): I am pleased to respond to that question and to put the information requested on the record. I would like to begin, however, by saying that I have asked the chairman of the Liquor Control Commission to review once again the salaries that arose out of the reorganization that took place to determine whether or not they are too high, in light of the fact that civil servants have taken zero percent when we are all living through difficult times. I have asked, Mr. Speaker, that that review be done.

December 11 , 19 91 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 17 6 I would, however, like to just correct some information, because I do like reviews to be taken in light of correct information as I am sure all members of the House do. I would like to indicate in terms of answering the request for the rationale. The rationale presented to me by the Liquor Commission, which I have asked to have reviewed-! am presenting just the information requested-is that the previous vice-president of licensing who retired in April was not replaced. Her salar y of approximately $75,000 was to be eliminated.

Subsequently, the remaining senior staff were asked to assume those duties, and they have received the following increases in light of the reorganization or they proposed they receive the increases of $2,900- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Storie: Mr. Speaker, there is a very obvious question in all this and who is in charge. My question is to the minister responsible for the Liquor Commission. Will she indicate to this House when she learned that there would be a 26 percent increase to senior staff of the Liquor Commission, what information she was providing- Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

The question has been put. •

(1410) Mrs. Mcintosh: To complete the answer to the first question, Mr. Speaker, if I may- Mr. Speake r: Order, please. I would like to remind the honourable minister to deal with the matter raised. Mrs. Mcintosh: When I received the information that the Liquor Control Commission was undergoing a reorganization-and you must understand that I have no authority to order particular salaries in an independent. I can ask for a review which I have done to ensure that they are not too high in light of what the civil servants have had to take.

I would indi cate, how ever, to correct the information that was put forward, that the average increase given the remaining senior staff who have picked up the duties of the vice-president who was not replaced, the average increase recommended they be receiving by the commission is 7.4 percent, and the net saving that has been indicated to me to the commission is about $50,000. Chairperson Resignation Request Mr. Jerry Storie (FIIn Flon): My question to the minister responsible for the Manitoba Liquor Commission is: Will she immediately remove the chair, Mr. Charles Birt, a former PC member in this Legislature?

Will she instruct the board of the Manitoba Liquor Commission to remove that $26,000- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister charged with the administration of The Liquor Control Act): Mr. Speaker, as I have indicated, when the bottom line on the net savings that would accrue to the Liquor Commission was presented to me and I was told that $53,000 would be saved as a result of the reorganization, the percentage salary increases were not at that time given to me. I now have them.

I have asked the chairman of the Liquor Control Commission to review again this situation to see if a 7.4 percent increase for assuming the duties of that retired vice-president is excessive. Health Care System Surgery Waiting Usts Mr. Guizar Cheema (The Maples): My question is for the Minister of Health . A senior citizen who is a constituent of the member for St. James (Mr. Edwards) is deeply concerned because she needs a knee replacement operation and she cannot get it.

Her physicians have told her-and I will table the letter later on-that due to cutbacks, she will not be able to get surgery until 1993, and by that time, she may be permanently impaired and disabled. Mr. Speaker, there are a number of other Manitobans who are suffering the same kind of situation. The waiting period has gone from months to 18 months for many procedures. We will tell the minister that, by selling pizza and perfumes, he will not solve the problems of health care. Can the minister tell this House what has he done to reduce the waiting period for such operations for the last three and a half years?

Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): In simple terms, increased the funding in every single year that we have brought down a budget to the hospitals of the province of Manitoba so they can

17 7 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 11 , 19 91 undertake not less but more services, not cutbacks but increased activity. I reject my honourable friend's accusations. Mr. Cheema: Accusations are based on the facts. Will the minister tell this House why the waiting period for cardiac surgery has gone up since he has taken over? We have repeated that request many times in this House. People are waiting for more than 18 months. Can the minister- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. Mr. Orchard: Mr.

Speaker, maybe my honourable friend could share a little honesty with the House and indicate that, in every single year that we have budgeted for open-heart surgery, we have done more procedures in each succeeding year, not less, as my honourable friend would have the allegations. Physicians who do the scheduling for surgery determine which candidates receive the surgery in what order. They prioritize those waiting lists according to the most urgent needs.

That is a medical judgment which governments in the past have not chosen to dictate on the basis of phone calls to MLAs or ministers' offices how that list ought to be intervened with. Surely my honourable friend is not wanting to break that tradition. Mr. Cheema: If the minister has chosen to. Anesthetist Shortage Mr. Guizar Cheema (The Maples): Will the minister tell this House why he has not done anything about the shortage of anesthetists, because that is one of the reasons why there are delays in surgical procedures? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health) : Mr.

Speaker, during the negotiating period with the MMA who have had the exclusive-except for some very modest funds-allocation of over $300 million in medical fees paid by the taxpayers to some 2,000 physicians, under that

schedule of redistribution, anesthetists have been left out of the increases by the MMA as their bargaining agent and union. We have tried, in the past, working with the MMA to focus more of limi ted resources to the anesthetists. We have had some modest success but not enough. We look forward to the next round of arbitration with the MMA to see if they are willing to solve the problem of anesthetists' fee

schedule from within the $300-plus million we currently provide. Civil Service Commission Political Interference Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr. Speaker, my question is in regard to the continuing concerns that members of the opposition have about hiring practices with this government. On Monday, I asked both the Premier and the minister responsible for the Civil Service Commission how many jobs the Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach) had interfered with in terms of the hiring. Today, I would like to give the minister himself the opportunity to come clean to this House. I would like to ask him specifically, Mr.

Speaker, how many positions did he interfere with in terms of the hiring process in this province? Specifically, what positions did he interfere with as minister that led to a suspension of hiring? Hon. Darren Praznlk (Minister res ponsible for The Civil Service Act): Mr. Speaker, as we indicated to the member for Thompson last Monday, decisions in the Civil Service Commission withdraw or adhere based on their interna l workin g documents, which are not in the possession of the government or the minister. They are internal working documents.

The commission made a decision as it did in 1984 when Maureen Hemphill was minister. Mr. Ashton: Can the Minister of Education who knows obviously how many positions he interfered with in the hiring process, can the minister indicate how many positions- Mr. Spe aker: Order, please. Point of Order Hon. Clayton Manne ss (Government House Leader) : The question just drips with innuendo. Mr. Speaker, questions by your guideline are those to seek specific information dealing with a specific, in this case, obvious situation.

The member now is extending that far beyond the good guidelines that you have set down within your questions. I would ask you to call him to order. Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader) : On the same point of order, Mr. Speaker, I cannot think of any question that is more in order and is asking more specifically for information that has nothing to do with innuendo than asking the Minister

December 11, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 178 of Education how many positions he interfered with in terms of the hiring process within his department. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised and the specific Beauchesne's citation which I cannot get my finger on right now-but anyway, on the point of order raised, I would like to remind the honourable member for Thompson that his question is repeating in substance a question which was previously asked and is, therefore, out of order. *** Mr. Ashton: Well, Mr.

Speaker, if I can then rephrase my question in regard to another aspect with the minister, we have been told that the minister's hiring authority has been suspended by the Civil Service Commission for whatever reason. Can the minister, can the Premier, can anyone on the government side indicate why the Minister of Education is continuing to deal with personnel matters, in fact, continues to sign Orders-in-Council related to personnel matters if his hiring authority has been taken away? Mr. Praz nlk: Mr.

Sp eaker, the member for Thompson, in his question, has stated a number of things which I think must be corrected. First of all, it is not the minister's hiring authority, it is the Department of Education's hiring authority. The minister makes it sound as if hiring authority is -(interjection)- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. *

(1420) Mr. Praznlk: No-but, an important pointthat hiring authority is delegated to each of us as ministers. It is not. It is delegated to departments. Secondly, the member makes reference to signatures on an Order-in-Council. Members opposite know well that there are appointments made in gov ernment that are made by Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council which are not part of the regular hiring process of the Civil Service. Similar methods have been used by governments over decades. I am not sure what the member's question is, Mr. Speaker. Department of Education Hiring Authority Mr.

Steve Ashton (Thompson): I ask this question perhaps to the Premier in the hopes that he can clarify it. Can the Premier indicate then what is happening in terms of hiring authority within the Department of Education? Can he now indicate why the minister, who has had his hiring authority suspended, is continuing to be involved with personnel matters and why he has not come clean to the people of the province of Manitoba as to exactly how many positions were tainted by the Tory interference in the hiring process in this province? Hon. Gary Film on (Premier) : Mr.

Speaker ,I realize that the member for Thompson has never been in cabinet and does not understand procedures of government so I will try and briefly explain to him that there is authority for government hiring that comes under the aegis of the Lieutenant-Governor in-Council, which is cabinet. That authority remains the authority of any government in office. Aside from that there is another authorit)' that comes under the Civil Service Commission and its act. The matter that has been dealt with-that authority can be delegated to a department. That is traditionally done.

From time to time that authority is removed on a temporary basis as it was when the NDP was in government in 1984 when Maureen Hemphill was the Minister of Education, and Ron Duhamel was the Deputy Minister of Education, that hiring authority was temporarily removed for one year from the Department of Education. An Honourable Member: Why was it removed? Mr. Fllmon: I do not know why. I was not in government at the time. That NDP government was so embarrassed about it that it swept it under the carpet. They hid it, hid it from all public view. We have been very open about this, Mr. Speaker.

The Civil Service Commission has made certain determination and that determination has been carried out. Social Assistance - Students Reductions Mr. George Hlckes (Point Douglas): My question is for the Minister of Education. According to the throne speech the government recognizes the importance of education. Sadly, this minister and his counterpart in Family Services have shown by their actions that they do not share this belief. First they cut the student social allowances and then the high school bursaries. Now we find they are cutting CRISP payments to treaty Indians.

Why is the minister labelling ACCESS programs as

179 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 11, 1991 welfare benefits and thereby cutting eligible students off CRISP? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, I do not know the particulars of that particular question. I will take that as notice and get back to the member. Social Assistance • Students Program Reductions Mr. George HI ekes (Point Douglas): If the minister does support education, why was a constituent cut off CRISP after receiving funding for two years under the ACCESS program?

Is this another example of the government picking on the poor when they transfer over- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services) : Mr. Speaker, there are speci fic guidelines for the CRISP program and we would ensure that all citizens of Manitoba get fair treatment. If the member wants to give me the information on a specific case, we will be happy to take a look at it. Mr. Hlckes: Will the minister agree if the constituent is meeting the guidelines that they will reinstate the benefits to the student immediately? Mr.

Gllle shammer: As I have indicated, there are specific guidelines for these programs. I am not familiar with the specific case that the member is bringing forward, but we would assure him that he would get fair treatment. If you will give me the particulars, we will give you some details on it. Education System Curriculum Development Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River) : Mr. Speaker, if this government is committed to education in rural Manitoba, as they say they are, why has the Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach) cut funding to curriculum services and consultants in language arts?

These are prime examples of offloading which will have a much greater effect on rural people than it will on urban people. Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, we have not cut funding to development of curriculum in this province. As a matter of fact, in the new funding formula there is specific mention of how we will assist in professional development to ensure that our teachers in this province are better qualified and have the better skills to conduct the programs. Mr.

Speaker, there is a reorganization within the Department of Education and Training in terms of how programs are delivered, but it is simply incorrect to say that there is less service being provided to the field. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Speaker, five consultants have been cut and school divisions are having to pick up additional costs. Mr. Speak er: Order, please. Question, please. Funding Formula • Rural Schools Ms.

Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Can the Minister of Education tell this House whether teaching English 300 and 301 at the same time in the classroom, and teaching Science 100 and 101 at the same time in the classroom are what he considers effective education, because this is what is happening in the Duck Mountain School Division as a result of cutbacks. Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, those are the realities of small schools in rural Manitoba where you may have only three or four students in each grade in a small high school.

It is for that reason that we have invested money in the program for Distance Education in this province to ensure that students in rural schools where there are small populations will have the availability to take programs through Distance Education that will give them a better opportunity of a quality of education than they have had in the past. I am glad to say that we have now installed over 90 satellite dishes in our small schools throughout rural Manitoba to ensure that they can access quality programs from Distance Education. Ms.

Wowchuk: What assurances can this minister give to rural Manitobans that our children will have the opportunity to get some of these additional classes that are needed to fit into the work force today, instead of having additional cutbacks and offloading onto the taxpayers in the rural communities? Mr. Derkac h: Mr. Speaker, I wish the member for Swan River would talk to the member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak), because the new funding formula that was announced puts greater sums of money into many of our rural school divisions. In that way, it enables those rural school divisions to deliver programs.

Especially school divisions like Duck

December 11, 19 91 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 180 Mountain, like the member talks about, will have a greater opportunity to deliver programs and a greater variety of programs to students within that particular school division. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY THRONE SPEECH DEBAT E Mr. Speaker: The adjourned debate, fourth day of debate, on the proposed motion of the honourable member for Niakwa (Mr.

Reimer) for an address to His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor in answer to his speech at the opening of the session and the proposed motion of the honourable Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) and amendment thereto and the proposed subamendment to the honourable member for River Heights (Mrs. Carstairs) and further amendment thereto, open. Mr. Edward Connery (Portage Ia Prairie): It is a pleasure once again to rise in this House and to speak on a throne speech. Mr.

Speaker, I want to say it is nice to see you back in your chair in your usual jovial way and keeping track of what is happening in this House, and also to the Deputy Speaker, I want to wish well for the coming session. I think a special word to the new pages who we have, I think it is a pleasure to see the new faces and to see the opportunities afforded them to see how government works. In some cases, they will be very disappointed. In other cases, they might have their eyes open and maybe have some better un derstanding of the political ramifications that go on in this building.

I also want to say con gratu lati ons to the Sergeant-at-Arms, the Deputy Sergeant-at-Arms and the staff who have done us well through the years we have been here, and also to welcome all members back from all sides of the House and to extend to them the best for this coming holiday season. *

(1430) An Honourable Membe r: Even Reverend Blackjack. Mr. Connery: Yes, even Reverend Blackjack. We welcome all to have a very good holiday season. I do want to make one comment about the member for Rossmere (Mr. Neufeld). When I heard of his retiring from cabinet, I felt sad that this province would be losing a very good mind and very hon est ind ividual from the cabine t of this government. It is no surprise to me, Mr.

Speaker, that now people are saying, well, he is a great person, he speaks the truth, he speaks his mind, because it was in last year's throne speech that I said the member for Rossmere was one of our best cabinet ministers and a very good servant of this Legislature. Much of the debate unfortunately that we see in throne speech and budget speech debate is, I would consider, much wasted time. We have a lot offun in chastising each other, poking fun at each other. A lot of it is really a waste of time.

Especially, I was very disappointed in the speech of the Leader of the official opposition this year, which I found very distracted, no cohesiveness. I do not know if he knew what he wanted to say or what message he wanted to give to the people, but one of the very poorest that I have seen the Leader of the official opposition give and not one that I think is deserving of that individual. He should have a better one. I would say that the Leader of the Liberal Party (Mrs. Carstairs) made one of the best speeches I have heard her make in this Legislature. She spoke with reason.

I do not agree with all of the reasons she put forward, but she did, and she made some very constructive suggestions that I think we should look at. They were put forward, I think, in the right way, so I must compliment the Leader of the Liberal Party for that. Mr. Speaker, in last year's throne speech, I made mention that I supported more additional aid to the handicapped. It was not long ago that the Minister of Go vern ment Se rvices (Mr. Duch arme) announced that there would be an additional $8 million going to the physically handicapped. I want to compliment the Minister of Family Services (Mr.

Gilleshammer) for that. I think the Minister of Family Services needs to be complimented on many of the initiatives that he has taken on behalf of the people of Manitoba and those who are in need. Sure, I know the minister would love to do an awful lot more, but un der the constraints of a recession and of the times that there is not enough money to do all ofthe things that we would like to do. There were two things in the throne speech, and there were many things in the throne speech that I appreciated but there were two in particular. One

181 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA December 11 , 1991 was the introduction of establishing a Children's Advocate office which I think is long overdue and for the children of this province I think the minister should be complimented. The other one is the developing of a fair funding formula for women's shelters. Mr. Speaker, I have a soft spot in my heart for the women's shelters. I have had a fair bit to do with the one in Portage and it was only a couple of weeks ago that I had the opportunity to visit the one in Portage. I was very disappointed in the facilities that they had, they were very small.

The rooms were small for the people who have been forced to leave their homes and seek shelter, very small, especially if there were children involved in that separation from the family, but the good news is that the government is now renovating a much larger facility for a new and much expanded women's shelter in Portage Ia Prairie which services a large area in the Portage district. I think this is something that is overdue, but I must compliment the government for taking these initiatives. I think all of us in this Legislature are offended when we see the violence against women.

I compliment the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae) for the efforts that he has made to curb violence against women and family violence which occurs. Usually, it is the male against the female or the children of the family. It really is unfortunate that we have to have shelters because it is a sad commentary on our society today. Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to see-and I guess I will say a little finally-! was hoping that it would have been proclaimed a little sooner, but The Business Practices Act will take effect January 1 .

I think this is a piece of legislation that has been needed for many, many, many years, one that the previous NDP government had in their books, looked at, but I guess it did not carry enough political votes. They knew they would not get a lot of fanfare for protecting the consumers of Manitoba and did nothing to do it, but I am very pleased that the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mrs.

Mcintosh) has now finally proclaimed the legislation and as of January 1, we will see much stricter legislation protecting the consumers ofthis province and also for the businesses in this provinces who do not want to have to try to compete against unscrupulous and, I guess you could call, shyster businesses.! compliment the minister for putting this in place. Mr. Speaker, when we took over government in 1988 we inherited a lot of messes, but at the Workers Compensation Board we inherited one of the worst financial messes that I think any department of this government could have been in.

An Honourable Member: Compliments of Jay Cowan. Mr. Connery: Mr. Speaker, yes, and the members point out the member for, I think it was Churchill, Jay Cowan, was the minister who started off the demise of the Workers Compensation Board. When he took over, I think there was something like a $30-million surplus. They got involved with the politics. There was a tremendous amount of political interference. When we took office, there was a deficit of $232 million.

We were seeing annual increases to the premiums that employers had to pay of 20 percent every year, but at the same time, injured workers were not being properly looked after. (Mrs. Louise Dacquay, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair) In the King Report, when you read the detail, you saw the comments made about the lack of concern for injured workers, and that was during the NDP time of reign. When you look at what the NDP were doing, they were raising the deficit, raising the premium and, atthe same time, notcaringforinjured workers. Madam Deputy Speaker, what did this do to the business climate of Manitoba?

The CFIB listed it as the greatest deterrent at that time to business development. Members opposite are wailing away about jobs today, but had we not come in and cleaned up the Workers Compensation Board and put it on an economic basis that is properly managed and looking after the real needs of injured workers on a more timely basis than was before, we would have had more job losses because businesses were very concerned about the cost of workers compensation.

This year, and we are announcing early so that businesses can budget, they are announcing in December that there will be a 6 percent decrease in premiums for next year. The opposition should be glad that this is an incentive for business, but what does the member for Transcona (Mr. Reid) say? He says: I am appalled at this 6 percent reduction, said MLA Daryl Reid, Transcona, his party's WCB critic. They are just forcing injured workers onto welfare. The WCB should be into preventative measures.

December 11, 19 91 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 182 We have to have stricter workplace enforcement, safety measures, not investigation after the fact. I wonder where the member has been. We have intr oduce d safety prog rams in the heavy construction industry. In the construction industry, we have been working with Workplace Safety to ensure that the workplaces are much safer. He is suggesting that it should be done. Well, they did not do it when they were in power, and of course, he cannot believe that any government would do it.

It is being done, and the current minister of workers compensation is carrying on with that worthwhile program. Let me just-and I just got it this morning, and I thank the Minister responsible for the Workers Compensation Board (Mr. Praznik). It is from Ontario. It says Dear Stakeholder: In an effort to continu e the openness of the Workers Compensation Board, we are releasing our third quarter financial report, a first for the board.

In Manitoba, we have been doing that for years so that the business people would have an understanding, so that the opposition and the government members would have an understanding of what was happening. This has been going on. It is finally happening in Ontario. It says here, the net results in the third quarter, the unfunded liability increased by $280 million as compared to $89 million in 1990. Madam Deputy Speaker, the unfunded liability of the Ontario Workers' Compensation is $9.9 billion. Madam Deputy Speaker, I really think it is tragic that the member for Transcona (Mr.

Reid) would insist or think that a decrease in premiums to Manitoba employers is bad when it is an incentive to work and we are not taking things away from injured workers that is coming to them. *

(1440) I want to mention a little bit about Highways. ! want to compliment the government and the Minister of Highways (Mr. Driedger) for the maintaining of the $100 million capital budget annually that is going into Highways, especially in rural Manitoba. When we see a lot of the rail line abandonment that is happening, we are attempting to maintain the highway infrastructure that is so important for Manitobans to get to the marketplace. As you know, under the NDP government, this had been reduced to something around $80-plus millio n, so the importance of highways is very crucial to Manitobans.

I do want to thank the minister for finally, after some 55 years of lobbying, that Highway 240 to St. Claude will be completed to the final oiling in the next year or two. We are going to be starting on Highway 227 north of Portage, but also, I want to thank the minister for the overpass that we did open on, I think it was, October 9-finally opened to the people of Manitoba.

It is a safety measure for all of the people driving down the Trans-Canada Highway because Highway 240 is a very major intersection going to the south area of Portage and also to Southport, which as you know, Madam Deputy Speaker, Is where the privatized training will take place, and we hope to see some great things take place in Southport in the very near future. This session is about economic stimulation. It is about job creations. It is about income. It is about creating wealth to do the social services that the people of this province deserve.

I will say, I have been a constant critic of our government's thrust in the economic side, and I continue to be critical of our performance.! think that we are finally getting into it, and I welcome that thrust. It is unfortunate that, I guess, from my own perspective, I have never once been asked my views on economic development for Manitoba, and I do not think that many of our caucus members have. I think this is tragic because I think we have a lot of ability in caucus, and I think members opposite can make a lot of very constructive suggestions to us.

I am pleased, though, that we are seeing an Economic Development Committee of Cabinet, chaired by the Premier (Mr. Filmon), put into place. I think that is a very good start, late, as I have said, but it is a very good start. Madam Deputy Sp eaker, it is absolutely imperative that the business community be part of the economic thrust of this province, The business people are the ones who know what programs will work, what programs are necessary to help make the economy get off the ground.

I know we cannot make the economy of Manitoba a utopia when all around us other provinces, other countries in the world are in a recession, but it is like any manager or any business person or any farmer, a good manager can make better during tough times than a poor manager, and I would hope that we would be better managers. We have to bring in the business community to be part of the solution. They have to buy into the solution and want to be part of it. I think there is

183 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA December 11 , 19 91 another very important group that we have to bring in and that is labour. Business is only, Madam Deputy Speaker, the vehicle we need to create jobs, to create economic activity, to create wealth that we can do the things we need, but if we do not include business into the equation, then we are not going to succeed in the way we should. Labour knows very well some of the concerns they have. They have to be encouraged at times to accept some of the responsibilities that they have for making things work well. We have to be a much more competitive province.

Industries have to be more competitive and that includes government, business and labour. We are all part of the solution and if one does not opt in, then the solution will not come very readily. I do want to make mention of the Crocus Investment Fund, and I think it is a little ironic that here is a program put forth by a union so that employees can take over companies that are maybe going broke or the individual people do not want to be part of and want to get out of and the employees see it as a worthwhile venture and a way to make a living.

The Crocus Investment Fund is part of this, but It is ironic that it Is brought in by two Conservative governments who are supposed to be antilabour, so I do give credit to our government and to the federal government for working with labour to bring in a program that will help us save businesses and create more jobs. I think that employee ownership, Madam Deputy Speaker, is very healthy and I think we need to encourage it. We can look at Vent-Air that the employees took over when the firm was being sold and I think there were some problems with the management or the ownership, and it is doing very well.

We can look at the rotary engine repair at Bristol and it was a very small part of their operation and not worthy of their endeavours to keep it going. The employees took it over and the employees are doing a very good job keeping their jobs in place and jobs of others and the economic activity. An Honourable Member: Could have saved Paulin-Chambers, the biscuit company here, if that government would have had that in place. Mr. Connery: That is right. I have said, Madam Deputy Speaker, that labour is a very major part of the equation, but labour is also a very big problem that we have today, and labour unions.

I want to be very clear that we separate the words when I talk about unions, but I am not talking about the rank and file union worker or nonunionized worker. I am talking about the self-serving, dictatorial, bullying leaders of some labour unions. There are some labour unions, or union leaders whom I have had the opportunity to work with, who are excellent and have the interests of the employees who are in their union at the best of heart, but we see a lot of union leaders who are out there for their own self-serving interests. Now the unfortunate

part is that the unions have bought and paid for the NDP party. They have bought the NDP government body and soul and this is unfortunate. Madam Deputy Speaker, when we talk about labour and we talk about the liberties that we have and our freedoms-! was listening to the member for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli) and the member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) speak yesterday. I think it was the member for Wolseley who was talking about the powerful and how the powerful had a profound effect on other people, and there was only about 2 percent who were in that category. Unfortunately, the union bosses are in that 2 percent.

They are the powerful who are putting their viewpoints and their authority over the workers whom they are supposed to be working for. If anybody in a union dares to challenge these bully union leaders, what do they say. We have seen people in the last PSAC strike who wanted to go to work, who did not think there should be a strike. There are union workers, and I have talked to a lot of them, who believe, yes, we are in a time of recession, we are in difficult times, that maybe this is not the time for greater income but to keep the jobs, and we are quite happy to go to work without an increase in pay.

We saw during the PSAC strike some of the ugliest union measures that we can see, bullying, death threats- An Honourable Member: And Reverend Blackjack marched the picket line- Mr. Connery: Yes, the member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale) walked with those union leaders -(interjection)-and the member for Thompson. He likes to be associated -(interjection)-Yes, well, they all have -(interjection)- Well, Madam Deputy Speaker -(interjection}- Madam Deputy Speaker: Order, please.

December 11, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 184 Mr. Connery: Daryl Bean is the president of the 170,000-strong Public Service Alliance of Canada. Now, there were three women who were wanting to go to work and had been intimidated, threatened, bullied going through the picket line, and they wrote letters -(interjection)- Yes, as one member says, grandmothers. They wrote a letter to Mr. Bean complaining that their rights and privileges were infringed upon by union workers. What was the reply that Daryl Bean sent back to these three women, grandmothers?

He says, after God had finished the rattlesnake, the toad and the vampire, he had some awful stuff left with which he made a scab. A scab is a two-legged animal with a corkscrew soul, a waterlogged brain and a backbone of jelly and glue. Where others have heart, he carries a tumor of rotten principles. No man has a right to scab as long as there is a pool of water to drown his carcass in or a rope long enough to hang his body with. Now that is what the member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale) and that is what the members of the NDP support. They talk about freedom- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order, please. *

(1450) Point of Order Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): I am having a great deal of difficulty, Madam Deputy Speaker, in hearing the comments of the honourable member for Portage Ia Prairie, and I would ask you to call the members to order, please. Madam Deputy Speake r:The honourable member for Transcona does have a point of order, and I indeed was attempting to regain order in the Chamber. *** Mr. Connery: It was quite interesting that the member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) yesterday was talking about fascists and fascism, that she was so happy that these people had been put out of the way.

I think she was talking about Hitler and some of these people who were so against the freedoms of people. She was talking about it, and yet she is part of the party that is bought and paid for and owned by Daryl Bean and people like him. Because those are the people who fund the NDP party and when the NDP are in power they put forward the programs that are asked for by some of these, I call them-well, the words I would like to use would not be fit for this Legislature. So it really disturbs me when we are trying to put an economy back in place and we have union leaders who would resort to this sort of tactic.

This is in Canada where we have a Charter of Rights and Freedoms, but it is not respected or believed by the unions, and the NDP support those particular union leaders. So, Madam Deputy Speaker, it is a sad day for Canada and for this province and for this legislation to see this sort of thing going on, and for the NDP party to continue to support people who would make those sorts of comments. No man has a right to scab as long as there is a pool to drown his carcass in or a rope long enough to hang his body with. You talk about freedoms, you talk. The member for Burrows (Mr.

Martindale), Madam Deputy Speaker, marched with the casino workers, and I think they were on strike for two months. The tragedy is that the union leaders knew at that point there would be no increase in Aalaries for those casino workers. They knew it, and they did not get anything more after two months. What did they lose? They lost income; they lost security. Those people were in severe jeopardy and those people, the NDP and the member for Burrows, marched along with those workers knowing that they were getting the shaft and he is proud of that.

Madam Deputy Speaker, we can take a look at the nurses' strike when that went on. The nurses were complaining that they did not have an opportunity for a private vote, for a secret ballot to vote on what was being put forward. Once again, the union leaders dragged them into a protracted strike knowing there was no more money, and the NDP supported that, and they say that they are for the workers of Manitoba. Well, I hope that there would be a change of heart amongst the NDP and join with all of us.

Maybe we need a change of heart in some of our thinking, and I think all of us can use some change of heart and work in the best interest of all of the people of Manitoba. Madam Deputy Speaker, I believe that we as a government need to take a hands-on approach to job creation. I do not believe in the type of job creation that the NDP went through with the Jobs Fund. I am not sure whatthe total number of tens of

185 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 11, 1991 millions that we finally had to write off for the band-aid jobs that the NDP put forward, but that is not the sort of hands-on approach that I believe we need in job creation. We want to have the sort of long-term jobs that we are seeing right now in the manufacturing industry which was pointed out that we are increasing our jobs in the manufacturing industry. I know the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr.

Stefanson) agrees with that approach, that we need to look at jobs that are going to be paying for themselves, going to be long-term jobs and that will raise the income that we as a province need to fund our social services. Madam Deputy Speaker, I think we need to do a lot of things in job creation. I think we need to enhance the department. Well, first of all, let me say, I think we need to dismantle the Department of Industry, Trade and Tourism, then I think we need to rebuild it and enhance it.

I do not have the greatest respect for the department as it now exists, and I hope that the minister will do a lot to renovate it. I have those great hopes that this will take place. Madam Deputy Speaker, I believe that we need an extension department within industry who will do much like the extension department in Agriculture did to go into crop diversification. There is a lot of expertise in this province that is not being made use of to its fullest extent. There is a lot of product that is coming into this province that I think people in Manitoba can replace.

An import replacement needs to be the first goal of this government for the smaller entrepreneur. We do have the Palliser's and the large companies that are very capable of completing on the international marketplace, but there are a lot of people here in this province and a lot of small businesses that could manufacture or produce a lot of the goods that are coming in. What we need to do is to show those entrepreneurs out there what they can do, and it might take some money. I am prepared to see money put into job creation, because after all this is the most important thing that we have to do in this province.

Jobs is the most important thing that a person wants. Nobody-1 should not say nobody, but most people do not want to be on welfare. Most people want a job, so job creation is what we need to do. We need to, as a department and as a government, work. -(interjection)-One member says their health before money. Well, I think that is a given, we hope that everybody has good health. Before we can do all of the things that we want to do in social services and expand our health care farther than what it is, we have to have the revenue to be able to do it.

I support the thrust of this government trying to keep our deficit under control. If we Jet the deficit run, we are eventually going to pay the price. We saw a Jot of students in this Legislature and the galleries earlier, and those would be the people who would pay the price for our foolishness today. So we have to work very carefully to keep the deficit under control. At the same time, we need to stimulate the economy of this province, and I would look forward to the government working to marry people and product and to work to make the industry come about.

I think there are a lot of ideas out there, and if we work with the industry people, I think this can happen. I remember when Sid Spivak was Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism and he had the little drummer boy. He had those little decals all over Winn ipeg and rural Manitoba drumming up enthusiasm for industry. I think that we need to once again drum up enthusiasm. We need to drum up enthusiasm for the businesses to become more competitive. We need to drum up the enthusiasm of employees to be more competitive and to produce the kind of work and quality of work that is so necessary.

I will say, Madam Deputy Speaker, that I still am opposed to free trade with Mexico. I have not seen anything that has been indicated to me that free trade with Mexico will benefit Manitoba. Maybe there is some, but I have not seen it. I guess I am from Missouri, I want to be shown that free trade with Mexico will benefit Manitobans and Canada. Madam Deputy Speaker, one of the areas of job creation that I think our government should put more emphasis on is tourism.

I think we need a stand-alone Department of Tourism, not that the minister who currently has it is not a very competent minister, but he has a very heavy portfolio. I think that a stand-alone Department of Tourism would go a long way to creating more jobs in this province, and I think there are a lot of people in the industry. I think the tourism people of Winnipeg would be quit e happy to see a stand-alone tou rism department. *

(1500) Madam Deputy Speaker, agriculture is the backbone of rural Manitoba, and I have to say that

December 11, 19 91 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 186 I am pleased with the thrust that we as a government have done to help the farmers of Manitoba. I will also compliment the federal government, although I am rather critical of the federal government. I think the federal government of Brian Mulroney has given more aid to farmers in western Canada than any other governm ent dreamed of doing.

We can remember what Pierre Elliott Trudeau said about farmers and their wheat and the gestures-well, the words that he used, I do not think, would be appr opriate for this House, Madam De puty Speaker, so I would pass on it, but he also made some gestures. The Minister of Agriculture (Mr.

Findlay) sincerely has been attempting to work with the federal government to bring the sort of programs forward that farmers can at least stay alive while we are through this crisis with the United States and the European Common Market fighting with subsidies, and it has really destroyed our agricultural sector in the grains and oil seeds. Having said that it is the grains and oil seeds that are in trouble, Madam Deputy Speaker, I would now- Hon. James Downey (Minis ter of Ru ral Development) : Put carrots in. Mr.

Connery: Well, we could put carrots in, as the Minister of Rural Development said, carrots, which our farm grows, yes, we could. They are doing better than the grains and oil seeds. There are a lot of other crops, though, that could be grown by Manitoba farmers. Maybe we could be enhancing our cattle production, maybe hogs. There are a lot of areas outside of the grains and oil seeds that we could do. I think we need to have our Department of Agriculture's extension part enhanced to quite a degree.

I think, over the years, especially over the NDP years, we saw the Extension Department cut down, and I have not seen it rebuilt in the period that we have been in government, so I would encourage the mi nister to solicit Treasury Board.

Some Treasury Board mem bers are here, and I would hope that they would look at enhancing the Extension Department of the Dep artmen t of Agriculture so that we can work with those farmers to develop new crops and new ideas and expand on those where there are markets because, yes, even in carrots, we have sales that are now going into Minneapolis and indeed even Texas, because we have that kind of quality in Manitoba. Madam Deputy Speaker, I do not think anybody in the province of Manitoba begrudges any of the money that we have spent on farmers.

I think most people would even support more help to the farmers because they are the backbone of rural Manitoba. A healthy rural Manitoba makes for a healthy rural Winnipeg because, withou t a healthy rural Manitoba, Winnipeg will not be a healthy city. We have to, Madam Deputy Speaker, target, and so often we just way, well, we got to do things, but I think, as a government, in agriculture and in the business development side, we have to target those areas that we think we can enhance and create more jobs. We have to get away from the shotgun appro ach.

We have to analyze where the opportunities are, and then we have to set about a method and a procedure, programs, to see that that comes to fruition. If we do target it, and I think the will is now there, as we have with the economic council, chaired by the Premier (Mr. Filmon) of this province, and that indicates to me and to all of us in Manitoba that the economy is the foremost thing on the Premier's min d, that I think that we may be on the threshold of now doing the things that we should.

Madam Deputy Speaker, one thing that was not in the throne speech that I was a little disappointed in was a mention of a water strategy for southern Manitoba. We have been talking about water for southern Manitoba for some time. l think it has come to the point now we are the crossroads of where we have to make a decision. Are we going to put in place the mechanisms that we can ensure that all of southern Manitoba has sufficient water, or are we just going to let it go willy-nilly with band-aids-1 do not know, just let things happen as they may?

Madam Deputy Speaker, I do a fair bit of travelling and I had a very short vacation this fall and had the opportunity to travel through a good part of Canada and some of the United States. Where you see water, you see econ omic acti vity. You see businesses, you see farms, you see thing s happening all through. Where there is no water, you see very little activity. You might see cattle grazing, or you see the antelope, or you see some very destitute land that is really producing nothing very much. Water is the lifeblood of any country.

We are so fortunate to have a fairly good supply of water that passes through this province. I say passes through because we are losing too much of it. We should be retaining more water for our use and for helping areas such as the Pembina Valley.

187 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 11 , 19 91 We have seen a proposal put forward to the government of Manitoba, and it has been advertised, to divert water out the Assiniboine River to the Pembina Valley. I do not think that anybody would question the need for that water. They need that wate r desperately, but there is a concern of people who are on the Assiniboine River watershed at this point over the adequacy of the system as it now is to provide that water and to guarantee adequate amounts for those people curre ntly on the Assiniboine River system. The member for Radisson (Ms.

Cerilli) has introduced a resolution, Resolution 47, dealing with this very subject. As the member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale) says, it is a good resolution, and I read it and, yes, it is a good resolution. I hope the resolution was put forward for the right reasons. If it is, I welcome them with open arms to work with us to resolve the problem that we have with water. If it is for the right reasons, I think we can go hand in hand and all be proud of what we do. If it is just to be antidevelopment or antiprocess, then it is for all of the wrong reasons.

I have extended already to the member that I would be quite pleased to sit down and talk to them about the water strategy and what we on the Assiniboine Valley view as some of the concerns. We have, in southern Manitoba in the Pembina Valley, and that takes in Carman, I guess south of highway No. 2 to the Red River to the Manitoba escarpment to the United States border, a piece of land that is very choice, capable of producing an awful lot for this province.

If we were to put in a proper water strategy, which has to include entrapments-dams as we hate to call them because that seems to be a dirty word-we could provide not only 20 cfs for industrial and residential use, we could also provide irrigation water. (Mr. Speaker in the Chair) I think if we did that, Mr. Speaker, 25 years from now this government and this Legislature, if we could have your support, would go down in the terms of what now people praised Duff Roblin for doing in Duff's Ditch, for having saved Winnipeg and the problems that the Red River used to give Winnipeg.

Thi s Legislature could be called a visionary Legislature. I think the timing is now. The timing is right. I really sincerely say to the opposition, join with us. Give us your ideas, but help us put in place a strategy that can give water for all Manitobans. With it, you will see prosperity in Winnipeg like you have not seen. When you look at McCain's in Portage Ia Prairie, we have the jobs for the local people. We grow the potatoes in Portage, but just about everything else comes from some other area of Manitoba or Canada whether it be the cartons, the fork lifts.

This all funnels through, it channels through Winnipeg, and that creates jobs for Winnipeg. It creates work for railway employees. It creates work for the rail indu stry. If we had a much greater thriving diversified agricultural southern Manitoba, we would see a lot more activity than we have today. We could say, and it would not show up in one or two years, it would take 25 years, but we could sit back after- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member's time has expired. Order, please. Leave has been granted to allow the honourable member for Portage Ia Prairie to wrap up his remarks. Mr.

Connery: Thank you, and I thank the members for that opportunity. I just wanted to sum up with a few comments on Portage Ia Prairie, Mr. Speaker. Portage, you know, when it was announced that the air base would be closed and we had Campbell Soup closing, there was a lot of despair in the city of Portage Ia Prairie and the district around it. I would like to say that things are looking much beHer for Portage Ia Prairie, thank you. We have Canada Air now having got the contract for privatized training. I think they are going to do a good job. They are going to bring in other industries.

The government has acknowledged that we will move Stevenson training to Portage Ia Prairie, and also we have an aerospace training initiative which a good portion will go to Portage Ia Prairie. We have the Southport group working very hard to bring additional industry into Portage Ia Prairie. We have the Central Plains Region working hard to bring industry to it, and we do have some successes. The one I am so proud of is Can-Oats. No, the province did not put any money into Can-Oats, but Central Plains was the group that saved it from going to Saskatchewan or Alberta.

I have to give credit to the regional development corporation for the efforts that they made simply through being a facilitator. This is what the regional development corporations can be. They kept Can-Oats in Portage

December 11 , 1991 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 188 Ia Prairie which allows all farmers to sell oats to them. It has created the jobs, some 50 jobs in Portage, an expenditure of somewhere close to $20 million. *

(1510) We also had, and I thank the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) for opening with me just recently the D. L. Campbell Lodge. Everybody remembers Douglas Campbell, the former Premier of this province and a very good one, and the lodge was named. It is a seniors extended-care home run by the Portage General Hospital, some 50 beds I think, Mr. Minister, that we have there. An Honourable Member: Carstairs did not want that one either. Mr. Connery: Well, maybe that is possible, but I thank the minister for that and the government because it is a good job creator and it is very good for seniors in Portage. Mr.

Speaker, I thank the Legislature for those few extra minute s. I do wish everybody well. Maybe I was a little critical at one point. That criticism still remains, but as a group, I think, if we put our minds to it, we can make this province come around. Mr. Reid: Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to add my comments to those of the other members in the House on the throne speech. An Honourable Member: We will hang on every word. Mr. Reid: I know you will hang on every word because I have some suggestions as well, as the government has called for from time to time.

I hope you will heed some of those suggestions that we put forward as well as my other colleagues who have done the same over the days that we have been in this session. I would like to start, though, Mr. Speaker, by welcoming you back. I look forward to your guidance and your positive suggestions as you guide us through our legislative session. The other Chamber support who are here, I welcome them back, and I would like to congratulate the new pages on their appointment to their positions. I would like to start, Mr. Speaker, in discussing a bit about my community of Transcona.

As the member for Portage Ia Prairie (Mr. Connery) concluded his remarks talking about his constituency, I, too, would like to comment about what has been happening in my constituency. I would like to start talking about Transcona in the sense that it is a middle-income community com prised of working familie s. The families themselves have several basic industries that pro vid e the major job opp ortun itie s in my community, and that being CN Rail, Griffin Steel, Palliser Furniture and numerous other businesses such as New Flyer and others.

They have provided for us our jobs, our levels of income that will allow us to live in the lifestyles to which we have become accustomed over the years. We have seen numerous job cuts in those areas, Mr. Speaker, in the last year, and unfortunately, our community of Transcona has fallen on some hard times. At best, the community of Transcona is hard pressed, and 1992 looks like we are going to have an uncertain future. The food banks have become a major concern for us in our community in the sense that there are a large number of families that are having to utilize the services that are provided by the food bank.

I would like to start off, before I discuss the details of that food bank and its operations and the people who volunteer their services, to quote from a press

article that was recently in one of the newspapers. I quote: I do not think people line up for food in too many lines in our community. We try to make sure that everybody is at least well fed. That, Mr. Speaker, is a quote by the Deputy Premier (Mr. Downey) of this province. Little did he know that there are food bank line-ups in the different communities of our province, and one of those food bank lines is in the community of Transcona.

That food bank is operated by dedicated volunteers who, week in and week out, provide the support services for the people who desperately need these services, the men and women who selflessly donate their time and their efforts in the service of others. There are 365 total registered families that are making use ofthe food banks in my community. That is a tremendous increase over what we have seen, as I had previously talked about this issue in the last session. In the last session, we talked about 91 families on an average week coming out to make use of the food bank services.

Now that number has grown to 110 families on the average week. Every week, we are seeing seven to 1 0 new families coming to take

part in the food bank services. The food is having to be rationed because there are so many people, so many families that are coming to this operation.

189 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 11, 19 91 Most of these families and individuals that come to this food bank are young people. That is a sad statement for us to have to make because it is these young people in the most productive times of their lives who are unemployed and have no other means of support and have to make use of these services. This food bank is operated out of one of the local churches in the community, and the organizers of it are now facing a dilemma, a dilemma that I am sure is facing many of the other food banks in the various communities through our province.

That dilemma is what to do if all of the people that make use of these food banks happen to come out on the same day, because there would not be the resources there, the foodstuffs there, to meet their needs.

I think that it is important that we all, particularly at this time of year where we are approaching the Christmas season, do what we can in our own ways to lend support to these families, to provide some assistance to them, to remember the food banks at this time of year, to make donations to the Winnipeg Harvest, Winnipeg Cheer Board and the other agencies throughout the province that will receive these foodstuffs for these families in our communities.

Before that, I think we have to take greater efforts to create job opportunities for the people in our province because these people do not want to have to utilize the services of the food banks. They are there because of conditions beyond their control, just like we are talking yesterday, and again today, about those that are on welfare. The people who are on welfare, to a large degree, do not want to be on welfare. They were forced there because of economic circumstances beyond their control. The same applies to the food bank use.

I think we have to recognize that, and we have to take some serious steps to address this problem. Transcona has been impacted in a negative way by layoffs over the course of this year. Just last week we had an announcement where some 200 people would be laid off from New Flyer Industries. New Flyer, of course, is one of the major employers in the community of Transcona and has, at this time of year, chosen to lay off their employees. It is very unfortunate because it occurs at the Christmastime when the people need this income to provide the goods for their families and to pay the bills that they have.

This summer, we witnessed the layoff, a massive layoff, of 1,500 people, in the CN shops in my community of Transcona. That is a serious concern for me, having been a former employee of that plant, employee on leave, I might add. There are also another 200 people, during the course of 1991, over 200 who have lost their jobs on a permanent basis in the community of Transcona. It is my understanding, Mr. Speaker, that there are more to come in January of 1992.

Monday, when I asked questions of the Minister of Transport dealing with the railway and the job prospects, I was serious in bringing to his attention that in 1992 there will be more layoffs in the railway; there is no doubt of that. The recent agreement that the province signed to keep the Winnipeg Jets in our province has had its pros and cons, people on both sides of the argument. I recognize thatthe Jets play an important role in our province in giving recreati onal opportunities, or opportunities for people who want to take

part in watching the Jets play. They also create job opportunities for people in our city and our province. At the same time it takes away opportunities for the governments of Winnipeg and Manitoba to lend support to the various community club organizations in the city of Winnipeg and in the province of Manitoba. I will bring to the attention of the Deputy Premier (Mr. Downey) for his information, I have in my own community two community clu b organizations now that are in desperate financial straits.

One is the East End Community Club which has just recently had its building condemned by the City of Winnipeg, and it puts them in the unfortunate position of having to find alternate means of providing recreational opportunities for the people in the east end of my community of Transcona. The estimates that they have to construct a new building are in the range of $2 million. That, Mr. Speaker, is beyond their financial capability of handling. •

(1520) Yet I see at the same time the province undertaking opportunities where they will guarantee funding to the Winnipeg Jets, and I have to question whether or not it is a wise decision to do that looking at the opportunities that are going to be taken away from the young people in my community, because there are no opportunities for these young people, of course, and they will have to seek their activities elsewhere, outside of the community.

December 11 , 19 91 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 190 Another community club in the east end of Transcona, the Oxford Heights Community Club, has had to scale back its operations for lack of funding which removes recreational opportunities for our young people on the north side of my community of Transcona. They too are without funding to support their total activities that they need. Yesterday, the member for Assiniboia (Mrs. Mcintosh) questioned the motives of the members of this side of the House when we were discussing the issue of the Rotary Pines project.

The member for Assiniboia tried to leave the impression in the minds of some members that we were opposed to seniors housing. Nothing could be further from the truth, because it is we, on this side of the House, who want to ensure that decent, adequate and affordable housing is there for all members of our society, including our seniors. What we want to see is that fair play takes place in the awarding of the funding that goes to support the construction of these projects and that they are in the right location so that they do not impede upon other business opportunities.

It seems strange, some of the members opposite might feel, for me to think about the business opportunities, but the business opportunities would or could have been lost had that building been constructed in its present location because it would have impacted upon the airport operations that would have reduced the opportunities for our Winnipeg International Airport to operate on a 24-hour basis. Had that building structure been relocated to another site more suitable that would not have be en impinging upon the airport operations, it probably would have been more acceptable to members on this side of the House.

There are several projects in my community that would like to receive funding to provide the necessary supports for the seniors in the community. The three of them located in my community wanted to receive that funding and were hoping to receive that funding this year. Two ofthem have had to reduce their expectations. In fact, one outright cancelled their plans to construct a facility and are looking at throwing in their support with one of the other groups in the community. That is the Kinsmen group which has had to withdraw its program to construct seniors housing in my community.

The legion group, Transcona Legion 7, has still had its project on the go, and it is my understanding that they are still in a position where they may receive consideration for funding this year. I ask the Minister of Housing (Mr. Ernst) to seriously consider this because of the long waiting lists that are presently existing in the community of Transcona for seniors housing. Every facility there has these lists, and it is my understanding that there are several hundred people who have applied for apartment units in this complex which will hopefully be constructed during the course of 1992.

Without that, these people will have to relocate out of the community and will have to move away from their families and friends which will create hardship for them. That is not uncommon, Mr. Speaker, when we look at the fact that many Manitobans are having to move out of our province, and if we look at one of the recent quotes, it kind of gives us an indication of what has been happening in our province. I quote from The Globe and Mail: Today one in every 12 residents lives on welfare in Winnipeg. The city's social services budget dipped into the red on September 30.

Unemployment is at a harrowing 11 percent, the highest of any major Canadian city west of Newfoundland. Building construction is at a standstill, investment capital is fleeing the province faster than it is coming in, and there are signs that the surrounding farm economy is mortally wounded. Meanwhile, more skilled professionals are leaving the city than are arriving in search of opportunities--obviously opportunities that exist elsewhere, Mr. Speaker. -(interjection)-It is not over yet. An Honourable Member: We thought it was done. Mr. Reid: No, by far, it is not over, Mr. Speaker.

There are many issues that I wish to raise to the attention of the government to cause them to pay heed to the needs of Manitobans who need them to have the government take seriously their concerns. I would like to change direction now, Mr. Speaker, and talk about transportation, which is one of my areas of critic's responsibilities. I will move on to my other critic's responsibility, Workers Compensation, and try and answer some of the questions that the member for Portage Ia Prairie (Mr. Connery) had posed earlier when he commented on the comments that I had made previously.

191 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 11 , 1991 Missing and conspicuous by its absence, Mr. Speaker, was any discussion of transportation in the throne speech. That is unfortunate because there are several major issues facing us in the province with respect to transportation. These transportation areas provide literally thousands of jobs for Manitobans, and without any input from this government or any force being applied to the federal government, we stand to lose a good portion of these jobs in this province.

Manitoba has historically been the transportation centre for Canada, and we are quickly losing that title, if it has not already been lost. In the airline industry, Mr. Speaker, presently ongoing are the discussions of open skies, and there are meetings that have been held out through the course of the fall and summer, and there are more meetings that are taking place during the month of December. One of the major issues that is being discussed is the issue of cabotage. Cabotage will allow the-what we will call-the free trade in the airline industry.

That will take away job opportunities in the sense that it will allow foreign carriers, mostly American-based carriers, to come into our country to transport our passengers between cities of our country. Those jobs have historically been high-paying jobs. Their numbers are rapidly dwindling, and unless we take serious actions to bring pressures to bear upon the federal government, we stand to lose the remainder of the jobs in the airline industry, as they are presently in the city of Winnipeg and the province of Manitoba at this time.

This fall, we had Air Canada reduce its Winnipeg to Chicago service- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Reid: Quite the contrary, Mr. Speaker. We want to see those jobs remain in the city of Winnipeg. Air Canada chose to eliminate the services on the regular business days of the week that prevented the business people who wanted to commute between the two countries to bring those opportunities to Manitoba from conducting their normal course of business. Now what we see is Air Canada is only operating those flights on the weekends for the tourists, and hopefully, some of them will come to Winnipeg.

Air Canada chose to eliminate those flights to Chicago when they had a 60 percent fill factor. * (1 530) The operations out of Toronto to Chicago had a similar fill factor, yet Winnipeg's flights were cancelled, eliminating the opportunities for us to conduct our businesses to bring other opportunities to the province of Manitoba and, hopefully, more employment, but Air Canada chose to move away from that. Mr.

Speaker, I do not even think that we will be anything more than a feeder service, if we can even maintain that, once this federal government concludes its open skies discussion because I seriously think that they will, in the very near future, sign an agreement with the United States. That will mean the end of the employment opportunities for many Manitobans in the airline industry in this province, and we will have very many difficulties in moving about to the other centres of North America.

We have taken the opportunity to write to the federal minister to express our concerns, and we hope that the Minister of Transport for the government has taken similar opportunities to express concerns. One of the other areas of transportation, Mr. Speaker, that has run into some difficult times is the trucking industry. We raised several issues with the Minister of Transport in the last session that brought to his attention some of the unsafe practices that were taking place in the trucking industry as they attempted to cut their costs, but there are many other issues that still have not been answered.

There are questions dealing with the owner-operators that have not been answered by this government, and yet this government has promised that they would deal with these concerns of the trucking industry. They have not taken place to this point.

Although I have not had the opportunity to see the bill that the minister has just introduced this afternoon, I hope that his bill dealing with The Highway Traffic Act will amend some of the inequities that presently exist. (Madam Deputy Speaker in the Chair) The minister said in his statements to the media in September of this year that Manitoba is looking at easing registration requirements for trucks in an effort to help the beleaguered trucking industry and that the province may introduce greater flexibility so owner-operators, who are presently in serious situations in this province, who work on contract to major trucking firms, can move from one carrier to another without having to reregister their vehicles.

December 11, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 192 There are many other issues in the trucking industry that have put pressure on these people and has created some very difficult times for them and their families. I hope that the minister will bring forward legislation to deal with those inequities as they exist. We have seen many jobs disappear in this province in the trucking industry, and it has created serious problems because it has created more unemployment. We have lost jobs in CN Route, Madam Deputy Speaker.

We have lost jobs in Peters Transport, Esau Bros, and recently, we saw the bankruptcy of Imperial Roadways, where I believe we lost 85 jobs. If the government does not take some serious steps to address the concerns of the transportation industry, we stand to lose more trucking jobs in this province and probably more industries. One of the problems I believe that we face is further impacts of the free trade and deregulation as it impacts upon the trucking industry in this province.

I believe that, if we do not make opportunities for the businesses here to create employment and wealth for this province, a lot of those businesses will transfer elsewhere and most likely transfer to the United States. In going through the Speech from the Throne, there are several areas that came to my attention and there are a couple of positive things in the Speech from the Throne. It is not all bad news, although a lot of the information that is in the document is a rehash of previous announcements. There are not many new initiatives that I can see that are taking place.

One of the areas that caught my attention was the new economic development strategy to capture opportunities in the telecommunications and information technology industry.

Looking at the recent articles that were in one of the local newspapers, where they talked about the monopoly on the land-based information systems, I have to wonder the direction that the government is taking, and why they would look at placing into the hands of a private company information pertaining to the lives of many, in fact all Manitobans, because a lot of Manitobans have property that is registered and that information will be supplied to this private company.

We look forward to the government bringing forward this initiative to this House, so we can scrutinize the information that is there to ensure that Manitobans' interests are protected. Looking at what has happened in other jurisdictions in this country, I believe Ontario is one of them that recently initiated this information technology. There were some concerns there. Yet in the province of Alberta, the bastion of free enterprise, we see that the provincial government of Alberta has refused to undertake such a program, and yet we see in this province of Manitoba our own government making moves in this direction.

The government has ma de several other announcements in the sense of the Churchill rocket range, something that had been talked about in the last session. I sincerely hope that this program will go forward and that Churchill will once again resume its position. I support this initiative to revitalize the community of Churchill, because this community is in desperate need of some new initiatives that will allow them to remain a vital entity in our province. I will get further into my discussions on that as I talk about Churchill in my comments a little later on.

One of the other issues that could impact upon Churchill is the tourism industry. I have in my opportunities to travel to Churchill this year, and I have had two opportunities to go to Churchill, and to talk with the people. As recently as this summer I was there talking to the people. I believe that tourism for the community of Churchill should actively be pursued. We listened to the Minister of Education (Mr.

Derkach), and I refer to the education as it was referred to in the Speech from the Throne, talk about a new five-year plan, and I think back to what has taken place in my community as it impacts upon the school division and the educational opportunities for the people in my community. We had the minister talk about, I believe it was, a 3 percent increase in funding for the school divisions.

I wish to correct for the record that the minister had not given the 3 percent increase in funding to my community's schools but in fact had given two-tenths of 1 percent increase to my community schools, far less than the needs that they had. In fact, I believe they are once again considering no funding increases from the province, and of course, that means that there will have to be frozen wages or there will have to be program cutbacks, service cutbacks in the school division.

193 LE GISLAT IVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA December 11, 19 91 One of the priorities the government has indicated in the throne speech is the need for shelters for women and child ren at risk. I hope that the government will give serious thought to these shelters because I believe there is a strong need to have these types of facilities available for our women and children in the communities who are at risk and have been in abusive situations.

I am sure that later in the session I will have the opportunity to discuss that as part of one of the resolutions that have been put forward by members on this side of the House. * (1 540) The government also talks about total quality management in the health care system. I have had some experience with the total quality management process with my previous employer, and I must admit that I was less than impressed by the effects it was having upon the employees in the industry in which I was previously employed.

I hope the government and those who are employed in the health care field will look seriously at the impacts that total quality management can have on their operations. One area that I think will be positive for the province of Manitoba, and I am hopeful at this time, although we have to wait to see what the legislation will hold and contain, is legislation designed to hold polluters financially and legally accountable for their actions. This is one of the stumbling blocks that I believe have prevented the Minister of Environment (Mr.

Cummings) from taking action to deal with polluters that have locations in the community of Transcona. I refer specifically to the Domtar site, and there is one other industry that the minister has failed to take any action on to reduce the pollution that is emanating from that plant. I have pressed the minister for this time and time again, and I have seen little, if any, action taken by this minister.

Previously this fall, the minister, through his taxicab board, was intent on issuing 60 new taxicab licenses that I believe would have seriously weakened the opportunities for those who are employed in this area to have a decent standard of living. We communicated with the minister, and we received answers back that would not take any responsibility for the actions of the Taxicab Board, and then at the same time would not address the problems that those who were employed in the industry had.

Where the government had initially, in its report from the Taxicab Board, indicated that there was going to be at first a $38,000 fee that was going to be charged to these new licences as they were issued, then the government went back on its word, changed that $38,000 to a $10 0 fee that is charged to all the taxicab owners, so that $38,000 fee was reduced to $1 00. Those monies which were going to be collected were going to be put into a benefit plan for those who are currently employed in the industry to give them the opportunities to improve their qualities of life.

The government chose to selectively pick out those things that they wanted from that report and did not initiate the whole report and the recommendations that were contained in it. In the report, of course, there was also a survey that was supposed to have been done, although I have not seen the results of that survey, that said there was going to be a 20 percent increase in rid ership which would have given extra opportunities for those who are employed in the taxicab industry and those who wanted to pay more for these luxury vehicles to be on the road.

Of course, this was challenged in the courts and was subsequently thrown out, and now the Taxicab Board has to go back and revisit the process that they had initiated. Had the minister listened in the first place, when we wrote to him expressing our concerns about this, we would not have had the process where it went through the courts.

One recommendation that I will make to the minister in dealing with the taxicab industry, and that Is one that has been brought to my attention by those who are employed in the industry, and that is the lack of spaces which are available throughout the city to provide opportunities for these people who are employed to have their vehicles at waiting stands so they do not have to be continually cruising through the parts of our city burning fossil fuels, creating more environmental damage at the same time, and adding to the wear and tear on our road structures.

I hope that the minister will draw that to the attention of the City of Winnipeg officials who could deal with this matter. I hope that the minister, when the Taxicab Board resumes its hearings on this issue at the end of Ja nuary 19 92, will look at all of the recommendations and implement all of the recommendations and not just be selective. The member for Portage Ia Prairie (Mr. Connery) had talked about the Workers Compensation Board,

December 11, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 194 and he chose an

article that had been printed-1 believe it was in the Winnipeg Free Press-w here it talked about the 6 percent reduction that had been given to the employers in the premiums that they pay. The comments that I had made when I heard about that were that this would force the injured workers onto the welfare rolls of this province. -(interjection)-Well, if the members will hear me out on this, I will explain because, while I have only recently become the Workers Compensation critic for the New Democratic Party, I have had since my election in 1990 the opportunity to deal with many compensation claims.

In fact, over 50 percent of my constituency workload before I became the compensation critic was Workers Compensation related-over 50 percent. I think in listening to the other members in this House that by far the majority have had similar concerns, that the compensation claims cases, the case workload that they have had to deal with are similar to that which I have experienced in my constituency. I do not think that is proper, because there are many other

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-3-5
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 3rd hansardpdf 5.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	01d1d3eaac1087ef7132562eaf455087953f5e69

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