Province of Newfoundland FORTY -FIRST GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Volume XLI Second Session Number f1 1 G Tues day VERBATIM REPORT {Hansard} Speaker: Honourable Thomas Lush [Preliminary Trans .criptJ 3 April 1990

The House met at 2:00p.m . MR. SPEAKER (Lusll) _: O!nder, please! Statements by Ministers DR. KITCHEN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : The han. the Minister of Health . DR. KITCHEN: -······-·-··--··-·~······ · ···- Mr. Sp~;:~aker, it was with both surprise and shock that I satAJ and heard the news reports today of my remarks in the debate in this han. House last night. Various radio broadcasts this morning and the lead

article in today's Evening Telegram have linked the cu1n1nent Meech Lake issue with the negotiations between this Province and the Province of Quebec over the Upper Churchill H~dro Development. Anyone preSE!nt in the House last night or anyone reading Hansard will realize that the quoted remarks tAJere taken out of context and distort the tenor of my address and the depth of my positive Feeling towards the people of Quebec. However I want to make it abundantly clear that these remarks in no way reflected Government policy and were never intended to represent the views of my colleagues in Government.

Furthermore, I ur.ish to state that there has never been any attE!lrlpt by anyone acting for the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador to create such a link between Meech Lake and Churchill Ll. AplniJ 3, J.990 Vol XLI FalJ.s . In reading the Hansar'd l"r,~port of last night's debate I note that my reference to Churchill Fa11s was made while developing an al"gurn~;:~nt on the econoll'!ic prospects of this Province.

Given the situation which we have been forcr:!d to accept as a result of the original ChUI"Chill Fa1ls POlAier OPal, I probably expressed, personally, the frustration fE!lt by 111any NeuJfoundlander's and Lab1nado1nians over seeing so much weaJ.th lost to our Province. However, Mr. Speaker, these rE!ITJarks wer'r:~ rnaciE~ in thE:! hE!at of debate and represr:!nl:.E:!d my pe1nsonal views onJ.y. I regret that the widespread cove1"age• uJhich has bec~n givr:~n to that poJ"tion of" thE:! debate, may havt:> the ef"foct of 1nepresenting thE! cornrnr:'nt. to bE! thE:! policy of this GovernrnE!nt.

I can assure the House and the people of Canada that such is not. the case, and that. the position of thE! Premir:~r and t.he GovernmE!nt of l:.his Provincr:~ has a1tAJays bE!en that the Meech Lake issue is in no way 1neJ.ated to ne~Jotiations on any other Federal - Provincial proj €:~ cts or p!nogr'anls. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER : The han. l:he Leader' of l:he Opposition . MR. RIDEOUT: Thank you, Mr. Spt:>akE!r.

As I J.ooked across at the Min:i.stE•r' of Finance, I could only l:.hink that hE! was standing with a gun to his head, the Premier's gun to his head forcing him to make this statement to l:he Housr:! today. If the1n~;:~ ever was a case of the oJ.cl cliche corn".ing t1nue of 'loose lips No. 16 (Aftelnnoon) Rl "\

sink ships 1, The han. Minister of Finance 1s lips - MR. SIMMS : Not only on this . MR. RIDEOUT: Not only on this issue, but on a number of issues, this Minister has his foot in his mouth, more often than he has it anywhere else. Let us look at Hansard from last night, page L6'7, the Minister talks about Quebec making windfall profits and then he goes on to make the statement, 1and yet thE!Y refuse to negotiate, 1 then he goes on to say what was quoted right across this nation, I suspect today, Min.

Speaker, thE! following statement: 1We are stuck, they have us by the short hair on the Upper Churchill, raises the Minister of Finance, but now, I can te1l you something else, we have them in the same place on Meech Lake 1, Mr. Speaker. AN HON. MEMBER : That is what he said. MR. RIDEOUf: Despite the fli.rnsy effort of the Minister here, today, to make amends and make up for that infamous remark made in this House last night - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. RIDEOUT: Yes, you can go just what you like.

The Minister of Finance has embarrassed the Government, he has embarrassed Newfoundland and Labrador, thE:~ Premier told hirn to make this statement today. The Premier of this Province has been going all over this country trying to take a position against ME!ech LakE! on a principle, so he says, but the Minister of Finance let L2 April 3, 1990 Vol XLI the cat out of the bag last night, the Gouetnnment 1 s position on ME•ech Lake is a position based on vengr:~ancE!! That is E!Xactly lAJhc:lt it is.

Let rne say l:o the Minist:E!In that nobody, nobody in QUE!bec or nobody in Canada fotnced a foolish Government of Newfoundland and Labrador to sig n al.~Jay Lhe birthright of this Province, it was Newfoundlanders and Labradorians who did that, not Quebecers. fhe Minister of Finance should do the honourable thing and step irnrnediat~•ly out of the Cabinet and out of the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 0 0 0 MR. SIMMS: Mr.---S-peaker, bE! fore Ora] Questions, if I might? MR. SPEAKER: fhe han . the Opposttion HOUSE! Leader. Mf~. SIMMS : I just want to l"aise d tninotn matter.

I probably could have done it in the priuate period. Last Friday, fateful Friday as tAJe nolAJ know it, 1A1as a conFus'.i.ng enough day as it lAJas, but:. I nolAJ understand that l:h~• t.tnanscript of Hansard for F1niday has sorne pa~JE!S duplicated, repef.lted, pagE!S ~.>1 and 52, or at least parts of pages 51 and 52 are reprint.1:>d on pag~:'s 1)3 and 54, although not in their entirety. Apparently l:here is some confusion and mixup. I would like to se1::> it coinr,::.cted soim:!l·1ow or another, because that:. ddy lAJas confusing enough for all of us. No. 16 (Afternoon) R2 '\

MR. BAKER: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Leader. Govel"I11T1ent House MR. BAKER: Mr. Speaker·, that is a Pl"eliminary Transcript. I believr::1 it says on the cover Preliminary Transcript, does it not? At least I have one that says that. I noticed the error, and I am assuming it will be corrected. MR. SPEAKER: Before going on to Oral Questions. then, on behalf of han. Members I would like to welcome to the House of Assemb1y fouJ"teen Gradr:' VI students from the Roman Catholic School Board Enrichment Program, accompanied by their teacher Pat Donnelly, from the St. John 1 s area. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Oral Questions MR. RIDEOUT: Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Leader of the Opposition . MR. RIDEOUT: Mr . Speaker, despite ·the action we just saw from the Minister of Finance (Dr. Kitchen), thE! Minister of Finance in a flight of rhetoric last night in this House, may have inadvertently given the real reason for the Government 1 s opposition to the Meech lake Accord. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! L3 Apr·il 3, 1990 Vol XU MR. RIDEOUT: In vel"Y expLicit language, Mr. Speaker, the Mtnister' sa:i.d cleal"ly that Quebec had us.

Newfoundland and Labrador, by the short hairs 1 , as I just quot~:!d from yes t:eJ"day 1 s Hansard. for a number of years. but now, lAJith Mt::~ech Lake, tJJe have them by the short hairs. Everybody in the Province, I suspect everybody in the country by this time, Mr. SpeakE!r, have hE!ar·d that. Now, Mr. Speaker. I want to ask ·l:he Premier, tAdll the Premiel" t.E!1l the House whE!thr::~r or not th~~ Minister of Finance in these comments last night clearly revealed the under1ying rE!ason. the real reason for the Government 1 s Meech Lake position? MR. SIMMS : A good quesU.on. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier .

PREMIER WELLS: Abso1utE!ly not, Ml". Speake I". And for anybody to suggest that now is to f1y in the facE~ of a11 I"E!cd:i.t:.y and a11 eVE!nts of thE:' past. As a matter of Fact. Mr. Speaker, if one looks back to the HansaJ"d of May 17, 1988, one lAJiLI. see, as the Minister of Development (Mr. Furey) quotE!cl YE!StE!I~day, the position taken then, that after the next election, when lAJe had a Libt::'ral Governrn~~nt, tJJE! tJJou1d introduce a rE!Solution to J"escind the Meech Lake approval. So clearly it is not a po1icy developed by thts Government as

an act of venegance, as thE:! hon. Member suggests, and he does Newfoundland and the pr::~op1E! of Newfoundland a great disservice to suggest it. Ml". Speaker, let me fin:i.sh by No. 16 ( After·noon) 1n '\

saying that comment of the Minister of Finance last night is as unacceptable and as offensive to me personally -and the Government's policy as the comment by Monsieur Bourassa, that Newfoundland had better watch its P's and Q's because the Federal Government pays it 50 per cent of its Provincial revenu<-:~ and Ontario and Quebec pays 68 per cent of the Federal tax. That was totally unacceptable. The Minister of Finance knows and he acknowledges that his comrn~~nt last night is as unatceptable to me as that is. The Minister of Finance, as the Leader of the Opposition said, was in a flight of rhetoric.

And I guess that is what it was. All of us at one time or another will have a flight of rhetoric when we say things that are not sensible, not l:he proper thing to say, and may, indeed, in fact, reflect a kind of personal frustration ulith a state of events. And whether that reflected the Minister Finance's personal frustration or not. it did not reflect Government policy and position. MR. SPEAKER: ... ~·-y -- - The han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr.

Speaker, the Premier knows full well that a Minister does not have the luxury of drooling off about personal preferences if he is going to retain his position as a Minister of the Crown. Now, Mr. Speaker, tJJould the Premier tell the House what impact such statements by a senior Minister in Government in this case, the Minister of Finance, what impact this will have on negotiations with Quebec on Labrador Hydro development?

Does the Pl"~'m'.ier believe that such L4- April 3, 1990 Vol XLI statements will have a positive or negative effect on current negotiations, or is the Premier still naive enough to believe that such statements will, in fact, have no effect at all , Mr . Speaker? MR . SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER WELLS: I can only speak from one side of the negotiations and say thoy tAdl1 have no impact on our position. I do not know what impact it wil1 have on the position of Quebec.

I do not know how they will react to it, but I can say that: '.if QuE•bec has any integrity in H:.s dea1i.ngs l/Ji t h thiS P ]n Q VinCE! 1 j_ t lAd 11 d 0 l.: hI;! sarn<-:' as Ne!AlfoundJ.and is doing i.n relation Lo l:he comments by Monsieur Bourassa. It will not have any impact on our negotiations with respect to tho development of Hyd1no potAJer, t/Je will go on and continue with those negotiations on the basis of \:.he pure merit of it. MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the LE!ader of thE! Opposition. MR. RIDEOUT : Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

In view of the fact that the Premier has made it ch!ar· in l:he past that he lAJas not prE!par ·ed to bargain kilowatt hours for Constitutional compromise, and in view of the fact that the Minister of Finance has now clearly linked Labrador Hydro negotiations with the Government's Meech Lake position, tJJhethE!ln the PlnE:~IIrier wants to accept that or not, would the Premier not now agree, Mr. Speaker, that the loose lips of the Minister of Finance has severely weakened our bargaining position lAJil:h Quebec on Hydr·o No. 16 (Aftelnnoon) R4 - '

matte1ns and have, in addition to that, Mr. Sp~1aker, made a mockery of the Premier's Meech Lake postition? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Prerni~;:1r. PREMIER WELLS: I would agree that the most unfortunate, inappropriate comment of the Minister of Finance, as the Leader of the Opposition sa:id, in a flight of rhetoric in this House similal" to what others hav~~ said in the past, was most unfortunate and, in fact, inder::!cl lAJas probably embarrassing to the Government's posit:ion. I would haVE! to bE:~ a fool to deny that. Of coursE:~ it is. It does not ·- MR. HYNES: (Inaucliblr:~) . .

E.!t~ M ~ .. l.!L W_E L -~-§ : Mr. Speaker, the han. the Member For Trinity North has not been asked to answer this question. I have and I will answer it and speak for the Government. WhOE!Ver he speaks for, he does not spr:,ak for the Government. Now, Mr. Speaker - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! PREMIER WELLS: Mr. Speaker, I fran~ly admit it may weJ.l have caused embarJnassrnE:~nt l~o the Government, and I g1neat.ly regret that.. It does not r·eflect Government policy, as I have indicated frorn the beginning.

We will continue these discussions, and I say without fear of hesitation, Newfoundland's position on thE! Meech Lake Accord L5 Apd.l 3, 1990 Vol XLI woul.d be p1necisely l~he same. If the entire benefit of the Churchill Falls was flowing cl:i.J"ectl.y to thE! Tr'E:~asui"Y of this Province, our position on Lhe issues in the Meech Lake Accord would be precisely the same as they are now, ready, willing and able to compromise on a reasonable basis fol" the whoJ.e nat:i.on to clo what is right for t:h~~ nation.

We are not prepared to bargain constitutional principles for kilowatt hours of electricity, tons of f-.-ish, rrri.les of Trans-Canada Highway or anything else. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER : The han. thE! Leacl(!l" of l~he Opposition . MR. RIDEOUT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I agree total1y tAri.th th~:! PrE!ITiiE!I". His position has not chanqed. We know it ts tota11y infJ.E!XiblE•, hts t.uay or no t~.Jay. Let rnE:. ask t.he Prr:'rnier this, Mi". Speakel''.

In v :l et.u of the fa c L L hal~ l:. h o s 1?. intemperate, inappropriate statE:'ments by l~he Mi.nisl:.el" of Finance last night were greeted t.uith t.umull~uous desk thurnpinq fl"om th~~ other sid~:. of the House, in view of that fact, Mr. Speaker, has the PrE!ITLieJ" a11"E:'acly, today, Ol" tAJi11 he if hE! has not, rnade a call to Pr~~rn:i.er BouJ"assa and saJcl, loa k, dis regard U10 s (,~ :i ntE!mpE! I" ate, inappropl"iate stateJTIE•nts, Jet. thern not have any influence on our negotiations but let us act as Jf those statements were, in fact, nevel" made? Mf~. SPEAKER : The han. the Pi"E:Hrr.ier.

No. 16 (Afl:E!l"noon) RS -,

PREMIER WELLS: No, Mr. Speaker, I have not called Premier Bourassa. Will I? Yes. If I thought it would do a moment's good I would call Premier Bourassa, and I probably will, to assure him of our position and of our high esteem. Monsieur Bourassa did not call me after his intemperate remarks, but I will not hold that against him. I will probably call Premier Bourassa and ensure that he does not mistakenly misconstrue the comments of the Minister of Finance. MS DUFF : Mr. Speaker. ~PEAKER: The han. the Member for St. John's East. MS DUFF: -··-·-·-- .. -..... _,_ Thank you, Mr. Speaker .

In last the number of weeks we have had some public statements by both the Minister of Social Services and the Premier relating to the influx of rE!fugees and the costs. I would like to direct this question to the Minister of Finance because the effect of those statements, even though I think that was inadvertent, has certainly been to give the impression that the refugees are costing the Province of Newfoundland $2 .5 million a month. In the interests of accuracy, could the Minister t.ell this House what the net cost benefit has been from the recent influx of refugees to this Province? AN HON.

MEMBER : The net cost? MS DUFF: To the Minister of Finance . L6 April 3, 1990 Vol XLI MR . SPEAKER : The hon . the Mtnis l:er of Soci.al Services . MS DUFF: _,, ..._.,NoO OO-- It is a financial question . MR. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! Han. Members cannot dicl:.al:E! as to which Minister will answer the question. The hon. the Minist er of Social Services. MR. EFFORD : Mr .

Speaker, the Financ ial aspect as incurr ed by th e Depar tlTIE!nl of Social Services, th e money paid out for the cost of accommodating all refugees in the Prov'ince, comes out of the Social Ser·viCE!S budget, so I thought it necessary that I answer ·the question, as I have been dr:~altng rnainly lAri.l:h social assistance. The situation is thE! rr:'fuge es ai"E! costing the Province · a substant .tal amount of money for accommodations in hotels, food and transportation.

The Depar ·trnE!nt of Social Services has estimated the cost of the refugees to the Department of Soc ial Services, based on an average cost., as $1,100 per month per tndividu~l. The net cost to th e Provin CE! for this, that is cost- shared, under the Social Asststance - Canada Assistance Plan, SO per cenl:. by the Fedr:~raJ. Depar·tment. I d:i.cl no l: get the first part of l:he question , so I j us t want l: o give the background . SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! No. 16 (Afh~r-r10on) 1~6 '

MR. SPEAKER: 'O"r d-e r-, -pl''e'a s e ! I would ask the take his place, Member can frame han . Minis tE!r to and may be tht~ lhe question again. MR. EFFORD : If I may, Mr. Speaker, I was following up on the question of what it wou1cl cost per month, the net cost to the Province. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I thought the han. Minister said he did not understand the question. MR. EFFORD: No, no. No! MR. SPEAKER: i--·hi:l.Ue ·-a:·s-ked the Member for st. John 1 s East to direct the question again. MS DUFF: (Inaudible) understand it, and I think, perhaps, there is some misunderstanding here.

My question is an economic question and it did relate to the Ministe1n of Finance. It is: In the interest of accuracy, could the Minister tell this House what the net cost bem~fi t has been to tht~ Newfoundland economy from the recent influx of refugees since the beginning of the year? - not the cost per month to the Department of Social Services. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Social Services . MR. EFFORD : that is what I was I had to give some information leading Mr. Speaker, about to do. background tnto what the benefit is to the L7 April 3, 1990 VoJ.

XLI Newfoundland economy, services we are giving. is very simple, lAJhat it. Province . SOME l-ION. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. EFFORD: jobs The cost and cost lhe Mr. Speaker, if lhe Opposition lAJants an ansWE!r to lhE! question I wi 11 give it , but I am not going to anstJJer question lAJhen ev E!ry t:. i.rnc:> I open my mouth there is some interference fr'om the othor' stele. If you want an answer to the question you wi 11 get it , t: o the best of my ability. AN HON. MEMBER: Then answer it_ MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The han. the Mintster of Social Services. MR.

EFFORD: We spent approximately, and we ta1king about today 1 s figures. i.'li"E! I wi 1'.1. not go b a c k as fa I" January, I will talk about number of the peop1E! in Province today. There are approximately 2, 250 peoplE! in t.he Province today, costing approximateJ.y $1, 100 per month pE!r' a ,. _, l:.he thE! person. That is putting into the economy - I cannot give you the exact figure, I would have to have a calculator to do it approximately month. $2'

I) milLion pt~r Approximately 200 jobs have been created in the Newfoundland economy as a rE!SUJ.t of th~:! infJ.ux in the SE!r'ViCI'::~ industry. rhe totaJ. input to the economy is something I would have to No. 16 (AftE!nlOon) WI '\

calculate and give to the Minister of Finance. To date, he has not received the exact figures of tAJhat we are spending in the Province. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I think question, question, put on the maybe that type of being a more detailed is more appropriately Order Paper. The hon . the Member for St. John 1 s East. MS DUFF : Mr. Speaker, I do not think it is that complex, unless the Minister does not understand the concept of net cost benefit, which does not relate to one department or to the expenditure side. I would likE! thE!

Minister of Finance to answer this question, because it is an economic question.

In doing calculations - and I understand some calculations have been done - is the Government taking into account that 50 per cent of the Provincial funding is completely recycled within the Province, that 50 per cent of the Federal contribut.ion is new money, also totally recycled in the economy with a multiplier effect of four for new money, that there is a significant increase in employment, that there is an increase in business in the retail and s e r vice s ector s with res u 1 tin g increases in RST, personal income tax, corporate taxes and a general improvement to the hospitality industry?

Can the Minister rule out the possibi.lity that there:~ has, in fact, been a nE!t benefit to the Newfoundland economy as a result of the recent influx of refugees? AN HON. MEMBER: L8 Apri1 3, 1990 VoJ. XLI Let the Minister of Finance anstAJer it next. MR . SIMMS : Let hirn take his foot out of his mouth and answer the question . MR. SPEAKER : The hon. thE! Member fo1~ Mount PearJ.. MR. WINDSOR : If the Minister of Finance is going to speak, I would be delighted to hear him, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon . the Member for' Mount Pearl. MR . MATTHEWS: No answer. That is shocking! MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance . DR. KITCHEN: I will take that qu~stion under advisement . MR. SPEAKER: The hon . the Member' for' St. John's East.

MS DUFF: Well~ .... -in view of the fact that the impression left in the minds of people concerning the cost of the refugee situation is causing ill-feeling and resentrn~~nt t:OLAJ<H'cls refugees, and in view of thE! fact that a tr'ue and accur'ate pictUI"E:' should be made public, would Lhe Minister be preparE !d to haVE! hi s officials do an analysis of Lhe net cost benefit of thE• 'i.nfJ.ux of refugees on the economy of this Province and tabJ.e the results within a r easonable period of time in the House of Assembly? SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! No. 16 ( Af'tE! n10o

n) R8 \

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Social Services. MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, first of all, the Opposi·l:ion today is trying to create the feeling in the Province that there is some backlash because of the fact there are some refugees in the Province, and that is totally wrong. The position taken by l:his Government, by the Department of Socia1 Services and by rne as Minister is that '.it is not and it should not be a provinctal responsibility, it shouJ.d be the responsibility of the Federal Government. We are spending approximately $2.5 million a month. MR. SPEAKER : Order, please!

There was a very specific question ad~ressed to the Minister. allowed the Minister a leeway with it, and Minister is not going to the question, I will ask take his place. MR. EFFORD: I have little if the answer him to Mr. Speaker, it is not a matter of cost. What: the refugees are costing the Province today is not the main issue. The main issue is as I set it: out to be. But we also have another concern, the net cost to the Pl"ovince and the net income to t:he Province. We are now into the tourist season and the tourtst industry is bring'.ing new dollars into the Province.

We do not have the accommodations, we do not have thE! faciJ.iti.es to take care of those people '.in the ProvincE•. MR. SPEAKER : Order, plc:~ase! I ask the han . Minister to take L9 April 3, 1990 Vol XLI his place. MR. WINDSOR: - ·- Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Mr:Hnber For' Mount Pearl. MR. WINDSOR : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In vtew of the fact that. the Premier and the Minister of Muntcipal Affairs have rE!fusE~d to meet '"dth the City of Mount Pear'J . to discuss a fire department in that City, I IJJould ltkE• to ask a question to the Minister of MunicipaJ. Affairs.

And I beg Your Honour's indulgr:~ncE:! if my pr(•arnb1'" rnay seem to You1" Honour t:o bl':• a little bit lengthy, but I think this is a serious questton. The City of Mount Pearl, Mr. Speaker, under The City of Mount Pearl Act has not only l:he l"iqht but the responsibiLity to Pl"ov:i.dE:! fire protection services in the City of Mount PE•al"l.

St.uclii':!S by various Government Departnwnl:.s l:'lnd by outside consul'l:.ants have pr·oven very conclusively that the City of Mount Pear·J. is not notJJ adequatE!ly protected by Fire protection services and that a fire department should be established, or at J.east a fir'E! hall shou1d be established in Mount Pear1 on an urgent basis. Mr.

Speaker', the City of Mount Pearl, with the support and approval of the previous Administration, I might add, has proceeded to construct a fit''E• haJJ and has taken delivery oF rnost of the vehicles and equipment necessary to outfit that fii"E! ha1l at a cost of sornc:~ · thing l:i. kE~ ~il.5 million t:o date, and I think about $26,000 a rnont:h in :l.nl~E!Inesl. No. 16 (Af ·ternoon) 1~9 '

Union agreements have been signed, personnel have been interviewed 600 applications on file. Will the Minister now tell the House why the City is being denied the right to fulfill their responsibility to provide adequate fire protection to the people of Mount Pearl? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. MR. GULLAGE: First of all, Mr. Speaker, Mount Pearl has not been denied any rights. Mount Pearl is part of the St. John 1 s fire department right now. Unfortunately, that name applies.

It could more rightly be called a metro fire department, because it services the urban region on the northeast Avalon. The fact of the matter is I that as the Minister I offered ·last year to put firefighters in the Mount Pearl station, to man that station while we were dealing with the regional fire department. and the options that were available to us. Latterly, Mount Pearl Council along with the St. John 1 s Council the two major players in the region - agreed not to have any further discussion in public about the fire department because we are entering into Union negotiations.

And that is where we are right now. I do not really wish to comment too much about the fire department because the two Mayors, my officials and myself have agreed i:hat as long as union negotiations are ongoing, and we are dealing with the broader picture of a regional fire service and legislation forthcoming to enable the Municipalities to manage the fire fighting service, it is wiser that we not discuss LlO April 3, 1990 Vol XLI the details of union negotiation at this time. MR. SPEAKER : The hon :·- thE! Member For· Mount Pearl. MR. WINDSOR : Mr .

Speaker, th(~ Minister has had more than a year to deal with this particul~r problem, and the Minister knows full IAiell that the legal advice given to the City of Mount Pearl is that if the Minister put personnel in that department, in spite of the Fact that they have already signed an . agreement t,~-Ji th another union, that there would be a problem. MR. SPEAKER: 0 r'Ci e r 1 p 1 e a's e ! MR. WINDSOR: I will get to the supplementary . MR. SPEAKER: The han Member is supplementary question, waiting for the Memb.::1r supplementary. MR. WINDSOR : asking a and I arn to ask his Yes, Mr. Speaker, right .

I wi 1.1 supplementary. you are quite get to my Will the Minister confir·m that l:he Province's chief advisor on fire protection services, the Fire Commissioner, has done a report for the Minister, l:hat the fir's t report he submitted tJJas n't.urnE!d, and that the Fire Commissioner refused to changE! it. and sent it back unchanged? Will he confirm that the Fire commissioner indicates that a regional fire protection service is not necessarily the best for this region , and that. the City of Mount Pearl should be allot,~-Jed to No. 16 (Afternoon) RIO \

proceed on its own immediately? Will the Minister confirm that? And wi11 he provide a copy of the Fire Commissioner's report? MR. SPEAKER: Thr:1 han. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. MR. GULLAGE: Su ppl em~;:1 nta r y Speaker. questions, Mr . MR. R. AYLWARD: Just answer it. That is all. MR. GULLAGE: At this time, as I said earlier, we are in negotiations with the union with the objective of moving the firefighting services into municipal hands, with a regional Firefighting service administered through a regiona1 services authority.

We have had discussions with many, many people, including the Flre Commissioner. In fact, the Fire Commissioner. the Fire Chief, the City Managers of both ci U.es, in particular, have been very much a part of the discussions. As for talking about the Fire CommissionE!r''s report to me, and there t.uere several reports and discussions and meetings and so on, again I do not think it is appropriate considering we have ongoing union negotiations t~r.i th this particular union. I am sure even the union would not want mE! to make comment at this tirnE:1. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The hon . the Member for Mount Pearl. MR.

WINDSOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Minister may have ongoing union negotiations with one L11 April 3. 1990 Vol XLI union. I point out again the City of Mount Pearl has already signed an agreement until 1994 with their union. Will the Minister now stop procrastinating? Will he stop playing games u..Jith the safety and the Jives of the peop1E! of Mount Pearl and authorize the City to proceed with their responsibility of providing fire protection to the people of Mount Pearl? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Municipal and Provincia]. Affairs. MR. GULLAGE: No, Mr. Speake in.

I have an agreement tAr.i th both 1nay or s and both city managers. We have a gentlE:Hnan 1 s agrN:!ITif:'nt that tAll':! tAd ll not openly discuss any of the details of lhe ongoing union discussions. - and 1 think that 'is wise. MR. WINDSOR: It is not acceptable . MR. GULLAGE: As For Mount Pearl having a separate fire department. obviously that is option. ['t ·is an option for every city, every town in this particular region.

But the fact of the matl:.eJn is. u..Je have agreed in good fai l:h to proceed with the formation of a regional fire service. a r1:>qional fire authority and, contrary lo t:he Merni:H.'r1 s comment. both rnayoJ~s and both ci t.y managr:'rs have a~~JnE!ecl that. we proceed on that basis. If that is not a workable arrangement, only l'.irne wil.l teLL. CertainJ.y we have agr'E:1ecl Lhat tAlE' tAli11 proceed on that: basis, and t.ue have done just that. MR. WINDSOR: That was months ago. MR. SPEAKER: No. 16 (Af{:ernoon) R 11 -.

Order, pJ.ease! ~-S VERGE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han . the Member for Humber East. MS VERGE : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My questions are for the Premier. I would like the Premier to say whether the type of fairness and balance he espouses is reflected in his Government's appointment to high-paying public offices of Gordon Seabright, our defeated Liberal candidate; Grant Chalker, a long -time Lib eral campaign worker; Beaton Tulk another defeated Liberal candidate; Fraser Lush, the Liberal campaign rnanagE:~r in · the last election; and Scott Simmons, yet another defeated Liberal candidate? MR.

SIMMS: A good question . MR . SPEAKER: The han . the Premier. PREMIER WELLS : I guess they do not, Mr. Speaker, because I have bt::~en so scrupulous about trying to avoid the appearance of political patronage, that I have damaged Liberals. I have done great injury to Liberals in the Province, and I fear I arn going to have to take positive steps to correct it this. SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hear, hear! PREMIER WELLS: You see, it is easy for the han . Mernbe•r to stand up in this House and suggest that, but, Mr.

SpE !aker, I will not refrain frorn Ll 2 April 3, 1990 Vol XLI appointing people because they have ever in the past had anything to do with the LiberaJ. Party . We are going to rE!Store fairness and balance to thi s Province and that means fairness and balance for everybody, Liberals as well as Conservatives and NDP and others. MR. RIDEOUT: The half truth man rides again . MR. SPEAKER : The han. the Member for Humber East . MS VERGE : Thank you, Mr. Speaker .

I would like to ask the Premier holAJ he squares the rr:'VE!Jat.ions of t:he Hughes Inquiry about tAJhat can go wtnong- whE!n thE• autl·tol"itie ~; responsible Fa~ child welfare do not do their jobs properJ.y, or cannot do their jobs properly, with his patronage appcd ntrnE! nt of Beaton Tulk, a defeated Liberal candidate with absoJutely no social work qualifications and no public service E!XperiE!nCE!, to thE! critically important position of Assistant Deputy Minjster of Social Services, responsible for child welfare? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Pr'E:~mier . PREMIER WELLS: It is fairly easy, The han .

Member prejudice the point the fact that Mr. well-known Libera] Liberal Member. Ml". Speaker'. can try and Of Vi (!lAI lAJ:i. t h Tu1 k tAJas a and a forrner The simple fact is, hE! is VE!r'Y well qualified as well; he is an experienced teacher and Administrator and Regional School Principal, who is used to dea1ing No. 16 (Afternoon) Rl2 \

with children and young people and has dont> an excellent job, and I have no doubt will make a tremendous contribution SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order please! PREMIER WELLS: r'h'e'fa"ct"'t'i1'a."t he was as t u t e en 0 ugh in the past to be a Liberal, probably indicates that he has a high level of percE!ption and is a very bright and able fellow. MR. SPEAKER: The han. thE• Member for Humber East. MS VERGE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker .

Finally, I wouJ.d like to ask the Premier hotJJ he can justify what I would term this shocking departure from the practice follotJJed by PC Administrations, of appointing Deputy Ministers and Assistant Deputy Ministers based on merit, and generally promoting experienced career public servants. How does the Premier justify this departure? MR. SPEAKER: The han . the Premier . PREMIER WELLS: There is no departure from propriety. Whether there is a departure from the past practice of the for'mer Administration, I would havE• to go back and J.ook at all of their appointments.

Some of their appointments which come quickly to mind caus1':!d me a good deaJ. of concE!Inn, and I do not SE!e the evidence of it, particularly in a pJ.ace like the Public Service Commission, where I believe a Mr. L13 April 3, 1990 Vol XLI Vince Rossiter, who was the President of the PC Party, was appointed to fill that position, so do not - Joe Goudie, John Mclennan, th~;:H'e is a IAJhole host of others. So how it compares to the former PC Administration 1 s p r a c t i c e , I wo u 1 d h a v E! to g o b a c k and check. But I wouJ.d point out, Mr. Speaker - MS VERGE : Les Thoms, Phonse Faour .

PREMIER WELLS: ..... --.... --~ ·-·--·-····-··- · · ·-·····-· · - I would point out, Mr. Speaker, SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: .O'r-Ci e r~ ... [:)Ie-a s e ! PREMIER WELLS : I would point out, Mr. Speaker, that tJJhen we Formed the nE:!lAJ Administration, long overdue I admit, but tJJhen uJo For'rned thE~ nE:!tAJ Administration, essentially there were no changes outside thE~ PubJi .c Service. There tJJE!lnE• tuJo or l~hl"ee people, I bE!lieve, uJhom we Found WE!re not r~':!ally suil:.able For, l~he job.

One or two peopJ.e wan Lecl to go anytJJay, ancl LuE!re eminent-ly suitable and w:i.t.h whom uJe had no quarrel, but there were two or three people in whose competence we really did not havo any confidence and we rnovE•cl thern out of the positions. Bul~ it IAJas a question of coJnpetence, not anything else. MR. WOODFOfW: Min . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER: The hon. the MI':!ITlbE:~r For Hurnber Va11ey. MR. WOODFORD: lhank you, Mr. Speaker . No. 1.6 ( After'noon) Rl3 '\

My question, Mr. Speaker, is to the Minister responsible for Forestry and Agriculture.

In view of the fact that the Abitibi-Price mill in Stephenville will be experiencing a wood shertage over the next eight or ten years, and in view of the fact that there is a downturn now in the newsprint industry, and that 25 per cent of the cost of the Abitibi-Price mill in Stephenville is their high electricity cost, that, coupled with the fact that compared with Kruger in Corner Brook and Abitibi-Price in Grand Falls who have their own electrical systems to provide most of their power they are still having problems, would the Minister inform the House whether he had any discussions lately with Abitibi-Price concerning their high cost of electricity?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Forestry. MR. FLIGHT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I thank the hon. Member for his question. I can tell the hon. Member that the Few times that I have talked with Abitibi Officials, they have indeed indicated their concern about the ever-increasing cost of electricity. But I believe the cost of power in this Province, the generation and the sale and the cost of power, and power gon(:~ on contractual basis, is the business of the Minister of Energy. I can assure the Member that the Minister of Energy has kept me informed as to their dealings with the mill in Stephenville.

There are ongoing negotiations, and I accept any recommendations made by the Minister of Energy tJJith regard to our sale of power to Abitibi-Price Ll4 April 3, 1990 Vol XLI in Stephenville . MR. SPEAKER: The··-···hon ........... _the ME!rnbel~ ro1" Hurnb€~1" Valley. MR.

WOODFORD: Being the Minister responsible for preserving jobs in one or· thE:~ most important resource sectOI"S in the Province, namely, the newsprint industry, could the Minister tE!11 the House if he and his co1leagues took into consideration thE! ripph! effect of the 1.5 per cent payroll tax on utilities and other construction companies, Woods operators, Equipment oper·ators in the Province? Could he te11 the House if they took that into consideration when they put on the 1 . 5 and the e f f e c t i t IAJ o u J d h a v e on the newsprint industry, such as the Abitibi-Price mill in StE!phenvi.1le? MR.

SPEAKER : The hon. the Minister of Forestry. MR. FLIGHT: Mr . SpE!aker, ther·e arE:~ certcdn as p e c t s o f· the q u c:~ s t :i o n l:. hat I might want to take under advisement. The Member should be awarE:~ that the forE!St industry is exempt from the 1. 5 payJ"oll tax. I arn surprised that the ME•rnbE!r is not aware of that. The utility companies may or rnay not be. The Minister has not madE! Lhe statement he intends to rnakE! yEd:., so if hon. Members would wait until the Minister of FinanCE! is prepared to bring in his statement, we will tell you exactly who is or who is not exempt.

The utili ties company rnay or the may not be, but cc:.~rta:inly the forest industry is . MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Humber Va11ey. No. 16 (Afternoon) 1n4 '

MR. WOODFORD: I understand quite well, Mr. Speaker, that the forest industry is supposed to be exc:~mpt from the payroll tax, but, then, again, if it is comparable to other questions with regard to other industries in the Province, maybe that is not right. We do not have any answers yet. Apart from that. it is obvious that - MR. SPEAKEr~: Order, please! This is a supplementary and I am waiting for the hon. Member to get to his supplementary. Proceed to the supplem~1ntary. The han. gentleman is not allowed any

preamble in a supplementary, or very little, so I ask the hon. gentleman to get to his question. The han. Valley. the Membe~ for Humber MR. WOODFORD: Would the Minister tell the House if. over thE! next few days. he would make a special effort to contact the Abitibi-Price officials in Stephenville and check out: how serious this problem could be to their operation in Stephenville? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister and Agriculture. MR. FLIGHT : of Forestry Mr.

Speaker. for the Member's information, I have attended meE!tings with the Resource Poltcy Committee of Cabinet, tAJith the Premier presen ·t, and met with the Abitibi-Price people, not this past week but over thE! past months. The Premier himself, I understand. I do not ·know the specific date, met with the Abitibi - Price people and Ll5 April 3. 1990 Vol XLI discussed, b.Y thE! tAJay, within thE! past fetAl wec:~ks. th•;dr concel"ns with the high cost of electricity, or the effect the increase in electricity, thE! ME!Trlb€~1~ rE!fE!l"S to, tAJill have on their' operation.

That has all been taken under advisement and under consideration, and the Government's main cont~:!l"n tAJi.11 be guaranteeing the long-term viability of that mi.ll, wheth':'r they have to consider electd.c.i.ty, a tAJocid supply, or anything else. As soon as the Government is aware of exactly what our positton tAI'i 11 be with regard to thE!il" request. or theit~ concel"ns on electricity. WE• wi11 inforrn tht:! company ancl, of course, inform the House. MR. SPEAKER : Question Period h~s expired . Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees MR. DECKER : Mr . Speaker. MR .

SPEAKER : The han. the Minister oF Heall.h . MR. DECKER: Mr. Speake!", this is not stl"i.ctly a r e port i t i s a p e I" s o n a 1 rna t:. l:. t' r but I hope before I am jumped on I would like fot" han. Mr..:~mb.::•rs l:o listen. Before becorrd.ng a Min i stE•r' of lhe Crown I appliE!d For and r':=tc~~ilJ,~d permission to have a srnall piece of land adjacent: to my house t n Roddickton. The docurnc:'nls at"e notAl ready to be processed.

I have brought this to the PrE!rni.er' s attention, who has given tne perrrd.ssion lo proCE:'ecl ancl hi'.we the documents completed, I tAJould 1tke to table in the house all the No. 16 (AfteJ"noon) Rl5 ,,

details of that, so that hon . Members on the other side and the people of the Province and the people of the nation and l:he people of the world will know that this is being done totally above board. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR . SIMMS: I wonder, Mr. Speaker, would the Minister of FinancE! have any idea what it is all about. Petitions MR. HODDER: Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER : - The han. the Member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of 614 residents of the District of Port au Port. The prayer of the petition is :

WHEREAS Connors Brothers have indicated they will not reopen th~ Piccadilly Fish Plant this summer; and

WHEREAS the Piccadilly Fish is the largest employer in District of Port au Port; and Plant the

WHEREAS there is no fish buyer in the area at the present time; and

WHEREAS the Port has a unE!mployment; District of very high Port rate au of THEREFORE WE!, the residents of Port au L16 April 3, 1990 undersigned Port - Bay Uol XLI St. George petition th e Government of Newfoundland and Labrador and the Federal Government of Canada to do everything in their power to see that the Fish Plant in Piccadilly remains open . Now, Mr. Speaker, as I have said the petition was signed by 614 residents of the area. I understand there is another portion of the petition which will come to the House, perhaps after Easter. Mr.

Speaker, the people of Port au Port need help from Government. to find an operator for the plant. The people of the District. through their development assod.aU.on, th~:! Port au Port Development Association, and the fish plant workers themselves have bec ome active in pursuing an operator. I think that is sorneHdng l:hat is not normal in most areas, where local groups actually, physically try to find an opE !rator for the plant. The plant has been in opE!ration, I shouJ.d point out, fo1n practically a quarter of a century.

It is the largest employer in the District, and the impact of l:.hat plant closing is as devastating for the District of Point au Port as if you had three NatSeas closing in St. John 1 s. I say nothing about, and ME!rTibE!rS should not tako rny words incorrect .ly, but the irnpact, wheJ"e il is th~:~ onJ.y l:!rnployer in an ar1::!a, is much higher than the impact in rnany other areas of the Province. Mr.

Speaker, lAJhat it TnE!cHls to thP people of this area is that all the people who are working in this area are threatened · tAli l:h a situation w~1ere they may haVE! to moue away to work, because there is no alternative employment in th1::'! area . Mr. Speaker, thE!re is No. 16 ( Af'LE!rnoon) R16 '

nothing else they can do . The clergy in the area have written the Premier about this problem. The Development Association, the Fishermen's Committees, the Town Councils, all feel as one in the Bay St. George area and even in my hon. friend across the way, the Member for Stephenville's (Mr. K. Aylward) District, fE!el the same way about this plant. It is a major issue. The people have asked For a number of things. onE:1 that the plant be equipped so that it can more easily attract an operator. Secondly, that the Government advertise in trade magazines, which is a simple request for an operator.

Thirdly, that the Minister roll up his sleeves and actively look for an operator. Mr. Speaker. this is not the first time, as the Minister pointE!d out the last time I spoke about this in the House .. this is not the first time that we have had to look for an operator but each time we had to look for om~ the Government of the day went to work and found one. Mr. Speaker, this is the first time that we have seen so littlt'?. interest from the Government, and one would think that the Government perhaps was not interested in finding an opera ·tor. Mr. Speaker, I do not believe that.

I believe that the Minister will have to, and time is of the essence, the fishing season approaches and these workers are waiting for a response from GovernmE!nt. They are waiting for some effort from Government. They are waiting for a sign from Government that something is happening. L17 April 3. 1990 VoJ. XLI Mr. Speaker. t.~.Jith that I u..d.J.l lay the pEd:ition on thE! Table of the House and refer it to the Department to which it relates. !~:'!B~.-.2. P E A K E R. : The han. the Member for Grand Bank . MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker .

I had thought that the Minister of Fisheries would want to speak to such an important Fisheries petition. Having visil:ed l:hE:1 aJ"ea just a week and a half ago and met with some very concerned people as it pertains to this fish plant and the petition put fort.~.Jard by 1ny colleague. AN HON. MEMBER : A former Liberal candidate . MR. MATTHEWS: Yes. Fonner Lii:H:1ral condidatE•s and ever.ything. There is. a very gr·avE! conCE!rn fo1" this particular fish p.lant as there is in numerous other fish plants around the Province.

As the Member for Port au Port so rt::1adily points out, thE:! irnpact of this fish plant not rE:1opening in Piccadilly is comparable to the fish plant not opening in Gaultois or Grand Bank, Trepassey, St. Mary's.- Renews, Fer·rneuse and a11 around the Province. What they are very frustrated with is that for the f:i.rs l: time thE•rE• has not beE~n a tAJil1ingness. up to the time that we met with them and up to a few days ago, that no onE! has been u..Jilling to sit clotAJn u..Ji.th these peo~le to find a possible solution.

We found Lhat all around the Province in the communities that we visited that people are reaJ.Jy frustrated that. no one is looking For solutions Lo No. 16 (After·noon) R17 '

the problem. The problE!ms are different. The problems of the deep sea fishery are different from the problem wi t.h the Piccadilly situation. There can be solutions found if only the Minister of Fisheries and officials of his Department and Development and so on would get involved in this particular situation. They do need equipment, as the Member so rightly outJ.ined. There must be equipment somewhere in this Province that is owned by the ~rovincial Government that could be found to adequately equip tha ·t particular plant. With help such as that from the Province, I feel Mr.

Speaker that this fish plant could reopen for this fishing season. Now last year it was unfortunate, there was a resource problem in the area and a very limited amount of fish was actuaJ.ly put to the Pic cadi 11 y p 1 ant , but t h a t- tJJa s a bad year. This year it could be quite different. There could be sufficient resources put through to make the operation a good one. So I just want, Mr.

Speaker, to speak in support of the petition so -ably presented by my colleague, and having visited the area to listen to, and see first hand the frustration and concern of the people in the Port au Port PeninsuJ.a area as it pE!rtains to the reopening of the Piccadilly fish plant.

I would just like to say to the Minister of Fisheries thE!re are• a number of operations around the Province similar to the Piccadilly operation, and if someone were to go and sit down and get involved with those people. solutions can be found to some of these smaller Ll8 April 3, 1990 Vol XLI operations around the Province whereby people can be employed for this fishing season. Mr. SpeakE!r, I thought the Minister of Fisheries would speak after the Member for Port au Port and I arn hopeful that the Minister of Fisheries wiLl. rise in his place and speak to this pE!tition lAJhen I sit down. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries . MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, the han. Member knows full well that I was just about to stand up to respond but he was recognized by Your Honour and I of course deferred to him, but certainly I intended to speak to this very important petition. It is not as simple as Hw hon. Member would have the House believe, in tE!riTis of gE!tU.n~1 a nE!lAJ operator for the plant in Piccadilly. For exarnpJ.e the leasing history of that plant goes back 'to 1979 when National Sea Products had a lease on the operation.

Again in 1981 thE!Y renewed the lease and they were again operating the Piccadilly plant. In 1983 the Bell Isle Seafoods Limited had a lease on that plant. In 1985 Port au Pol"t Seafoods Limited were the operators of that plant. rhen of course, as we all knouJ in 1989 Connors Brothers Limited were operating the plant, so tJJe had five operators in that plant in less than a ten year period. Contrary to what the hon.

Me1nber has said it is obvious, by v:ii"Lue of the ·fact that we do not have people around endeavoring to operate the plant, it is obvious that. maybe the prospE!Cts undE!I" the present circumstances . al"e not that good. Certainly from uJh(:!rE! W:' sit No. 16 (After·noon) R18 '\

if an operator comes along and shows the least interest in operating the plant, thE!n we t.ui11 be more than happy to sit down with that ope1nator and do what we can to facili ta·te h"irn in what he wants to do. But Mr. SpE!aker, as the hon. Member said there are a number of fish plants around the Province that are now vacant. We have two in St. Mary 1 s, Riverhead and St. Mary 1 s itse1f, and we have a Fish plant in Blnanch that is not operating. I can go around the Island and probably namE! a couple of dozen small feeder type operations that are now without an operator. I can only tell the hon. Member, Mr.

Speaker, the fact that an opera·tor is not in place in that plant in. Piccadilly is certainly not an indication of our lack of interest in that community or in the plant itself. In fact I have already indicated to the Port au Port Development ~ssociation that I would be very happy to meet with them at some time in the future. I am p1nepared to .do it any t:ime, u.Jithin reason of course, and I look forward to that meeting.

If we can then f:ind an operator that shows some promise and some interest in moving into that plant in PiccadilJ.y we will then be more than happy to sit down with that operator and try to work out an arrangement. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Burin Placentia West. MR. TOBIN : Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker . I would like to present a petition today on behalf of a number of residents from the Burin PeninsuJ.a regarding the decision by this Government to move the 1_19 April 3, 1990 Vol XLI headquarters for thE! Eastern Community College Burin.

Fr'om Sa1t Pond, Last week I had the opportunity to attend a public meeting in Bur'in and listen to the conct::~rns of the people as it relates to "l:he dE!Cision by this GovernrnE!nt to move the headquarters of the Eastern Community College from Salt Pond, Burin. The decision to put the hE!adquar'telns in Burtn was a decision ·that t.uas madE! For ail of the 1night reasons. It. u.Jas a decision that was made by l:he previous Administration a little over a year ago, and hotJJ a Government can reorgantze so quickly, and with one stroke of the pen remove that Eastern Community Collego and placl'!

"it in another centre is beyond us. Mr. Speaker, we have no objections to another centre having anythtn<::J, but we do strongly obj E!Ct to thr::• sudden decision of this Government, with respect to the Eastern Community College, one year in a brand new buj 1d:ing u.d.l.h twenty-five employees just htred in the past YE!ar, to uproot. tl'lC:!Se people, eliminating the twenty-five jobs in Bu1nin, and moving the headquarters, is sornt::1thing which the people of UH:• Burin Peninsula, my colleague f1nom Grand Bank and ou1n col.l.eagues on this side of the House, have g1neat difficulty with.

As I said, the headquarters was put there, Mr. Speaker, for all the right reasons. It was put. there as a result of a tJneJTIE!ndous amount of input and u.Jolnk by the people throughout the Burin Peninsula. Councils made representation to have it accommodate a first year university prograrn and to have Lhe headquarters established in No. 16 (Afternoon) R19 "\

Burin. They met constantly with Government officials; th ey met, I believe, with the Social Policy Committee. My colleague frorn Grand Bank and myself met with basically every group on the Peninsula to try to ensure that this happened. When the decision was made, it was made, as I said, for the right reasons. All of a sudden, this Government in their wisdom, saw fit to close the headquarters, opened just a few weeks, brand---new headquarters, Mr. Speaker, and force twenty-five people on the Burin Peninsula on to the unemployment rolls. We all know, Min.

Speaker, that on the Burin Peninsula right now, there has been a tremendous downturn in ·the ·economy. We a11 know, I guess since last summer, that in the Marystown area alone, there are probably over 200 people who have left the area and moved to the mainland, and there is nothing in sight to change that in any significant way. That is one aspect of it. The other aspect is the right~ to retain the Community College Headquarters there. Let me say, Mr.

Speaker, there is nobody in the Department of Education or in the adult education system who can tell me or anyone else that there will be an improvement in the educational aspect of the Eastern Community College as a rE!sult of moving the headquarters. Nobody can tell me there will be any change with respect to the educational aspect of the studt::1nts who will be attending these institutions. Mr.

Speaker, constituents, the people on behalf of rny indc:!ed, on behalf of who attended that L.20 April 3, 1990 Vo 1 XLI meeting the other night, let me say that the Burin council are presently circulating a petition For signature throughout the Burin Peninsula. A committee has been struck which will be actively pursuing the retention of the headquarters there, and I ask the Minister of EducaU .on and thE! Department of Education not to interfere with th e twenty-five employees who work in that centre and not to remove the headquarters from Burin . It is part of the Burin situation right now.

If it were going there for the first time, or somE! thing of that sort, there would be no negative impact, per se. But, as H:. is, twenty-five people have been hi r·ed. SomE! of thE!ITI, Ml". Speak E!r. have bui"ll: new homes in the past year when they secured their job s, all fairly high-paying jobs, and to place these people into a state of uncertainty with no security in terms of what wi11 happen to thern in the future, I believe is the wrong decision for the Gover·nment of Newfoundland and Labrador.

I present the petition to the House for the consideration of the Department of Educat .ion, and 1 ask the Minister to take the action requested by my constituents . MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Member for Grand Bank . MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I rise to support the petition pr esented by rny coJ.J.eague, th E! Member for Burin - Placentia West, and say that the constituency I represent, the D-istrict oF Grand Bank, the communities and the thousands of people ther e"in, are very conCE!rned as well, about the suggestion in the White Pape:'r on post-secondary education, to No . 16 (A fte1nnoon) R20 '

relocate the headquarters of the Eastern Community College. As the Me111ber· For Burin Placentia West has 'indicated, thts decision was made a couple of years ago. The headquarters has been located at Salt Pond for that period of timE!. I guess thE! puzzling thing about the suggestion in the White Paper the big question called up fo1n debate - is what impac l: the relocation of the administrative headquarters t..uill have on the educational value of Eastern Community College.

If there t..uere going to be some educational benefit to relocating the Headquarters of Eastern Community CollegE! to sorMwhere else in the Province, then I would be the first person in Newfoundland and Labrador to support it. There ·is no one in their right senses or in their right mind that could not . support something that meant bEd:ter education and better educational value for our dollars. I mean that is only sane and 1neasonablE! and J.ogical and so on.

So if~ there was some educationaJ. benefit or educationaJ. value to relocation of an administrative headquarters for the Eastern Cornmuni ty College or any othE!r. community college in the Province then I would certainly support it. But such is not the case. There will be no educational benefit to relocating to Clarenville or Bellevue or anywhere else in the new region as p1noposed by the Government in its White Paper. Having said that, however, I cornrnE!nd the Minister of Educat.ion (Dr. Warren) and thE!

GovernrnE!nt on its proposed suggestions' as it pertains to the Cabot Institute L21 April 3, 1.990 Vol XLI and the Marine Institute and M.:Hnor·ial University, that has been an item of discussion in thE! Province for the last few year·s. It was very high on our agenda list when I was Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studtes, and we were looking very seriously and were very close to making a decision as it pertains to those three institutions here in the city and what the Government is proposing to do J.s veiny, veiny sensible and I support. it wholeheartedly.

But my reason for objecting and speaking in support of thc::1 petition today is that I cannot really see any educat-.ional value for relocating a headquarters of the Eastern Community College or any other. Havtng said that I realize as well that the Governrnen l: has offerod an opportunity in the White Paper, quite natural.ly. for inpu ,t. and feedback from the public in the various regions of the Province. That is positive. I unders land c\S well that there has been some suggestion, I belteve by the Member For CarborH:'ar (Mr.

"o'id), that therne m:ight be sonre pubJ:i.c hearings associal:.E•d or attacl'l('d thereto. I do not knot..u hou.J thE! Minister of Educatton has reacted to that. but that would be certainly very positive. So I just t..uant to go on reco1nd, Mr. Speaker, today as suppo1nti.ng the petit-.ion from the Bur-.in Peninsula opposing relocation of the headquarters for Eastern Cornrnunit.y CoLlege.

Before I sit. dot..un I u.Jill say once more that iF it could be clearJ.y demonstrat.E!d that thero t..uas educational bE!neFit to relocation I wouJ.d certainly support it. but s-.ince there obviously is riot then I have to oppose that suggestion for reJ.ocation. No. 16 (Aft.ernoon) R21 \

PREMIER WELLS: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: ouo••--·~---•••••••••.,•••-The han. the Premier . PREMIER WELLS: Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Minister of Education (Dr. Warren) there are just a couple of things that I would like to say. First I greatly appreciate the comments of the hon. Member, as a for·mer Minister with some responsibility in this area for Career Development and Advanced Studies. I appreciate very much his positive comments about the Government's proposal.

I understand also the motivation or the basis for his support of the petition, it affects the economy of the area and I can understand that basically. But the Government, as well as having an eye to the economic benefit must" have an eye primarily to the overall educational impact. And that is precisely why the Government put its proposal in the form of a WhitE! Paper, so that we can take into account hol.1.l a particular community wi 11 be adversely impacted or will not, and what will be the adverse or other impact from an educational point of view. I have no doubt, Mr.

Speaker, that the Minister of Education and his professional advisers will take seriously into account the petition that the hon. Member for Burin - Placentia West (Mr. Tobin) just presen ·ted, and spoken to by the han. Member for Grand Bank (Mr. Matthews), that that petition lAlill be taken into account -when the Minister considers all the representations made in response to the White Paper, that that will be taken into account as well. L22 April 3, 1990 Vol XLT MR. MATTHEWS: (Inaudible) there was some reference made in tht:' WhH:E! PapE!r as to the reason for some of these changes.

There is somE! refE!r'E!ncE:~ made to the Province being divided - I think it is five regions? PREMIER WELLS: Five regions yes . MR. MATTHEW~: Consequently the community collegE! boundaries are somewhat similar? Could you react to that? PREMIER WELLS: Mr . Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: The han. tl1e Premier . PREMIER WELLS: we_J._l, the ······--aetail is thE!t~e to be seen and the Minister can react morE! positively to it lAJhen hE! :l.s available to do so.

But the purpose is to divide the Province into five convenient administrative regions and put thE! central administration for the community college campus located in a region in an appropriate administrative area. And I believe that is what -- lAJE! propos~:·d, but we are prepared to hear the position of the different communities that arE! concli:~rned. But in the end the Government must make the decision on the basis, first and foremost, of what is educationally the right thing to do; and secondly what is fair and proper from an economic pojnt of view.

Because when Government administers an office or an institution like an educational institution, in sorrtE! art:'a, it makes an economic contribution . And it is one of the primary concerns of l:his Government to ensure that the benefit of Government expenditut~es is spread No. 16 (Af'lE!rnoon) R22 '

.:;/; throughout this confined to one particular areas . MR. WOODFORD : Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER: Province or two and not or three The hon. the Member for Htmbetn Valley. MR. WOODFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. TOBIN: By leave, by leave . MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Carbonear . MR. REID: To reinforce what: the Premic::~r has said, I find myself in a similar situation. MR. SPEAKER: -·--· .... ____ _ Order, please! Order please! Only if the Member has thE! leave of the House. Only three people can speak to a petition and three people have spoken. By leave? SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave, by leave . MR.

SPEAKER: The han. the Member for Carbonear . MR. REID : I rose by leave. I apoJ.ogize, Mln. Speaker. I thought I had leave when I stood. MR. SPEAKER: Yes. okay . MR. REID: I am in a similar situation in Carbonear tAli th the closing of the Avalon Community College. I t ... li.ll say that I have had several meetings with the han. Minister of L23 ApriJ. 3. 1990 VoJ.

XLI Education in the past month or so, and I can honestly tell this House that what is in the Green Paper or in the White Paper on Education is not necessarily etched in stone, and as the Premier has said. hE! is open and the Government is open to any representation by any Community. I guess. which is going to be affected.

I have told my people or the people of Carbonear District and that particular ar·ea that, that ts a fact, they are do"i.ng basicaLly the same thing as my hon. colleagues in the Marystown and Grand Bank area. and I am hoping that the end result will be one of satisfact:ion as far· as I am concerned. I imprE:~ss upon the Members that I guess, ".in t.hts particular caSE!. the rnot"E! lobbying they do and l:he stronger the 1obby is, maybe the bE!tter th~:dr· lnE•sult:.s would be, and in the end it l,\.IOUld be satisfactory to them as lAJE:'l1. For the record, I want to say, that I arn against the moVE! of thE!

Avalon Community College from Carbonear, but, I guess, by t.he time all the hearings are held and the peti .tions are madE!, I arn hoping that I can walk atAJay fr·om this House quite satisfied with the final decision. rhank you very much. MR. SPEAKER: The hon . the Member for Humber Valley. MR. WOODFORD: Thank you. Mr·. Spc::'aker. · My petition is to the han. Houst':! of Assembly. The petition is from the undersigned residents of St. Jude's. WE!, the:~ n~sidents of St. Jude's do not want to be amalgamated tAJ:i.th the Town of DeE!l~ Lake or any other cornmunity.

This is signed by 119 rE!SidE:'nts of the community of St. Jude's in the No. 16 (Af ·tE!rnoon) R23 \

District of Humber Valley . Now a little bit of historical background with regards to the amalgamation issue in the Humber Valley area. St. Jude's, Spillway and Nicholsville, Deer Lake and Reidville were included in the Regional proposal for amalgamation last summer by the Minister of Municipal Affairs. We have altJJays been cognizant of the Regional Government or some form of regional sharing in the area, Mr. Speaker.

We have said it before, and I personally, as a Municipal Councillor in the area for some ten years. but we went about it in a so called constructive tAJay and we had feasibility studies in place to be done on the whole area. When the Minister made his statements regarding the amalgamation issue, it was not the intent that the people were against, and I, as a Member was against, but it was the approach. As far as we are concerned, it was wrong in telling people what to do and how to do it.

But having said that and having discussed thE! concerns with the people in the area a little more extensively, the Minister and the Department in their wisdom decided to hold public hearings, but previous to that, the main town in the area would more or less have to absorb all those municipalities - the Town of Deer Lake. Deer Lake extended and more or less postponed their elections until April of 1990, and lo and behold, just a few weEd<s ago, the Minister. in a lE!tter to the Council in Deer Lake, stated that the elections would be put off for a year. until November of 1990. But the community of St.

Jude's made it quitE! clear during. the public hearings that they wanted L24· April 3, 1990 Vol XLI absolutely nothing to do with amalgamation, one way or the other . I say if the question tAJas put in a more, I suppose, constructive way, and they were more or less consulted rather than told, the outcome might have been a little diffE!rent. So having said that. they helVe notJJ presenl:.ed petitions and briefs to the public hearing process and have stal:.ed unequivocally that they want nothing to do with amalgamation.

That is the intent of the petition, to make it quite cluar and bring it to the atte!nU .on of the House, and in doing that to the attention of the Min :i.stE•r involved and to l:he Deparl:rnent involved as well. After the public hearing proc(~ss, I suppose, the final decision will be made with regards to amalgamation in that arE!a. But the putting off of the elections from April of 1990, which is six months. to November of 1990, which would be twelve months, begs a question frorn rnE• as the Member responsi.blE! for· l:he District.

Does this say that regardless of the public hearing process there will be some amalgamation in the area - one ful1 year? We had frorrt November of 1989 until the end of April of 1990, and we had very li.tl1.E! done. The hearing proces s had just started, WE! had onE• hE!aring and there was absolutely nothing more done within six months. I have some concerns tJJi th this. It tells me that the possibility of amalgamation in that area is certainly going to takE• place onE! way or the other. But the cornmuniti(~s in th(:;! area, not only St.

Jude's, have rnade "it quite clear; Spillway, NicholsviJ.J.e and other cornrnunit:i.es have made it quite clear that they No. 16 (Aftetnnoon) R24 ·

do not want anything to do t;.Ji th the amalgamation process as it stands right now, and it. is understandable. If they had been told up front, if they were going to get X number of dollars over a certain period of time and a certain year, they probably would have accepted it a little better. But that was not. the process taken, they were just told in no uncertain terms that you we1"e going to amalgamate with l:he totJ..Jn of Deer Lake and there was nothing put up front.

Nothing to base a decision on other than the fact that their mil rate would incre~se over a period of time, and after joining the town of Deer Lake a very substantial mil rate would be imposed. If they had been told at that time that they would have gotten the, for instance water and sewer in 1990, street lighting in 1991 or some·thing else in 1992, it probably would have been accepted a little better. But based on the information they had when the public hearing process took place and the approach that was taken by the Department of Municipal Affairs, they said no. I want to make this quite clear, Mr.

Speaker, and bE! on the record in presenting this petition on behalf of the citizens of St. Jude's. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. R. AYLWARD: Mr . Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: Thehon~·-:-t-Fi'e Member for Kilbride . .MB...:.. R . A Y L W BJ~ . .Q : Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I would like to have a few minutes to congratulate my colleague for presenting this petition on behalf of the residents of St. Jude's. Nearly 200 residents of that area, Ml". Speaker, have spoken very strongly on their opposition to L25 April 3, 1990 Uol XLI the amalgamation of their totJJn thE:dr community with the town of Deer Lake. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I believe the residents of St. Jude's along with the residents of a lot more communities iri this Province, Mr. Speaker, would have been much more receptive to amalgamation if the Minister and the Department had taken an approach that would have been more consultative with the people who are involved. The approach that the Minister did take when he became Minister of that Department seemed to be, and I find this unusual for the Minister, but it seems to be that he tJJas gcd.ng to proceed with this regardless of what the people of the communities saw was best For their future.

He was going to force this amalgamation on the peop1E! of thr:~ Province even without public hearings, I understand, at first when he started it in the beginning. But, Mr.

Speaker, after loud and quite a bit of opposition from some of us, and a lot from the communi ties, l~.h~:!l"e was a public hearing system put in place and then that system was going to be - the commissioner was going to be a dE!puty M-inister or Assistant Deputy Minister from the Minister 1 s Department, which again upset the people involved in amalgamation because they thought they could not possibly have a fair hearing if this t:ypr:1 of hearings WE!rE• put in place. And this Deputy M".inister or Assistant Deputy Minister was to report back to their boss knot;.J:ing l:hat:. th~>ir boss wanted amalgamation.

And what were they going to say? Would they recommend that there should not be amalgamation when they knew full well that their Minister and the Government he represents are very much in favour No. 16 (Aftel"noon) R2 1'J '\

of amalgamating quite a Few communities in this Province? Mr. Speaker, I believe the way amalgamation should have been approached, and I am sure had the Minister given it a bit more thought he would probably if he had his time back prefer to have done it this way, I believe thE!re should have been policies put in place to encourage communi ties to amalgamate. If they had financial and economic policies in place that made it advantageous for smaller communities to amalgamate with larger ones, I am sure the communities in this Province would have considered it.

But the policies that are in place now and policies I supported when I was Minister of Municipal Affairs, I do not disagree with that, the policies were put there to try to help smaller communi ties and provide them with the essential services of today which certainly would have been water and sewer and some reasonable transportation or road systems in their communities. Mr . Speaker, if the Minister wanted to change these policies and wanted to have a few larger centralized areas around the Province, Mr.

Speaker, and have all the communi ties amalgamated into several larger ones, what he should haVE! done and the approach he should have taken would be to change the policies that I had as Minister, which would have been acceptable to TnE!, and put policies in place that would encourage towns to amalgamate . Mr. Speaker, one other comment I would like to make, there were many amalgamation hearings around th(:~ Province so far, not VE!ry many out in my han. Member's District, L26 April 3, 1990 Vol XLI but in this area there t.uere many amalgamation hearings.

I know there were many Members on this side who went to these hearing s and made their points and told what they felt about the amalgamation hearings. I am surprised that I did not hear from very many Members on the other side, although ther(:1 WE!ln(:1 a couple who did make their presentations. AN HON. MEMBER: Yes they did. MR. R. AYLWARD: But the Me!mbers, particular-ly th~~ backbench Members on the other side did not seem to have the freedom to be ab1E! to go and express their views on amalgamation. I am sure if the Member for Pleasantville (Mr.

Noel) could have expressed his views at the public hearings he would have done it. But. I guess the party whip must have gotten after the Members and told them that. yes, they could go and J.istE!n but they certainly cou1d not comment because they would be embarrassing their own Minister, Mr. Speaker. Although I knot.o~.J for' sure there t!Jas one ME:'illber lAJho had enough courage on that side to go, no matter what . he was in teres t. e d in his towns and the amalgamation issue out his way - the Member For Burin - Placentia West (Mr. Tobin). MR. SPEAKER: Order, ph1ase! The han. Member's time is up . MR. R.

AYLWARD: That is too bad, Mr. Speaker . MR. SIMMS: An excellent job! MR . GULLAGE: Mr. Speaker . No. 16 (Afternoon) R26 \

MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. MR. GULLAGE: Mr. Speaker. I certainly welcome the opportunity to speak on this particular petition and rna k e s orne comments about the amalgamation procedure in general, and specifically about the Deer lake situation in a momE!nt. First of all let me say that I continue to be amazed by the comments of sorne han.

Members who continually say we entered into the amalgamation procedure and we are still into the amalgarnat.'.i.on procedu1ne with a Fixed agenda, and that agenda is totally inflexible. we cannot makE! any changes and whatever we are proposing in a given grouping, that is it, it is caJ"Ved in stone, it is over and done with. and the Minister is bound and determined that the way you see it is the way it is going to be in the end. Nothing but nothing could be further from the truth, Mr. Speaker. And I do not blame:~ the Opposition, I suppose, to try to scuttle the process.

I guess they are getting a 1i t.tle worr'.ied now it is going to be successful. AN HON. MEMBER : (Inaudible). AN. HON. MEMBER: It will be in places. worry. MR. GULLAGE: Do not I can tell you forty-five communities, the Province - we started out with groupings of 115 communities in MR. RIDEOUT : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker . MR . SPEAKER: Order, please:~! L27 April 3, 1990 Vol XLI A point of order. the han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. RIDEOUT : Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Mr.

Speaker, I am always vc::~ry reluctant to interrupt the Minister or anybody speaking 'in the House but Your 1-ionoUI" knotAJs, and the Minister should know, that under our' Standing Order's when a Member rises to speak to a petition; first of aJl, the Member must support the petition; secondly. the ME!ITJber rnust confine his or her remarks to the material al1E!gations of the pE!U. U.on. the:! number of names on it and the prayer of the pe•t:i.t.ion. ThE! Member cannot go off talking about the reasons for amalgamation or the reasons not for' arnalqamat:ion.

The first thing the Member must do is support the:~ peti.t.ion. If the• Member cannot support t:hE! pE!l:i.tion then, Mr. s·peaker, the,, Mc::HnbEH' has no right to s~and at all. AN HON. MEMBER : Right on! MR. SPEAKER : To the point of order . I quote for the han. the Lc::~ad,:!r of-" the Opposition. I just happen to have this ruling here because I raised the point rnySE!J.f a coupJ.e of days ago.

I said the same thing the Leader of the OpposH:i .on said but we find Speake1~ Russell in 1975, in replying to a s::i.rn:i.J.al" situation, make the ruJ.ing, when somebody was saying the person speaking was not speaking to l:.he petition, Speaker RussE!11 sa::i.d: 'I am not sure the han. ME!Inber has raised a valid point of order'. under l:he same circurns ·l:ances. 'but I would suggest the hon. the Leader of the Opposition should speak to th~;;~ peti.ti.on w~wther he No. 16 (Afternoon) R27 '

supports it or not. 1 The han. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. MR. GULLAGE : Mr. Speaker, I would hope that the point of order has not taken away from my time. MR. SPEAKER: It does. MR. GULLAGE: It certainly did not contribute very much. Mr. Speaker, as I was about to say. We started out with some forty-Five groupings of communities, 115 communities in all. Hearings have now been completed in thirty-eight of those groupings. We only have seven hearings left to complete. I might explain that when those hearings are complete, the commissioners will finalize their reports.

I now have a good number of those reports already in to me for consideration. I do not intend to proceed directly to the Government with a recommendation without consul tat ion, as has been implied. We arE! not going to necessarily put together the groupings as you see them now. We have already seen circumstances where the groupings should be changed. A good example is Deer Lake. Perhaps there should be a change in the Deer Lake grouping as. it was originally proposed. If that is so, the commissioners report will reflect it.

Perhaps we should add a community, delete a community, delete two communities if necessary. But surely in all fairness to the people in St. Jude 1 s and the people in the other communities involved in that L2 8 April 3, 1990 Vol XLI particular amalgamation, it is fair that they be heard through a hearings process . I hope the Member and pE!ti.U.on is not suggesting that the hearings process has not been worthwhile, because that is not what I am hearing. What I arn hear·ing frorn the communities is that they welcome thE! hearings proCE!SS.

ThE:1 fact that they can sit before l:.IJJO commissioners and have their say about their communities and have their say about the capital !AJork s that is needed. To presuppose you could decide on capital works that are necessary and make recommendations to thE:' comrnunitiE!S before you even hear from them, Mr. Speake!~, is certainJ.y not part of the feasibility pl~ocess. I wouJ.d not recommend it. The feasibility process incidentally does not entail just having a· public he•aring. Thr:1 public hearings part of it is only about 20 per CE!rlt to 25 pe•1n CE!nt.

There is an enor·rnous amount of work that goes on behind thE! scenes by way of consultation with thE! cornrnunit.ies, J.ooking at t.he-.ir financial base, looking a l: th~ :! ir revenues, looking at l:.hr:! e•xpensE !S , the assets that are in place and so on. There is a J.ot of work that has to be done. It is not just a hE!arings process. But granted, the rnos t irnpol~tan t pa1nt in rny opinion is the piH'L lAlhE!l"E! the communities do haVE! th1:d.r say in the hearings procedure. MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! The han. gentlrnan 1 s time is up . MR.

GULLAGE : I think they have had a good opportunity to have th~;dr say and I can assure you that their views No. 16 (Afternoon) R28 '

will be reflected in the final result. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Member for Grand Bank . MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I take pleasure this afternoon, Mr. Speaker, to rise in this House to present a petition on behalf of approximately 1200 people from the towns of Fortum~ and Gr·and Bank. By far the rnaj ority of the narrH::~s on the petition as designated by signatur.:~, addr·ess, occupation and telephone number are from Fortune. I guess a lot of the cornrnents rna(h~ by a number oF previous speakers apply to this particular situation.

Just in reaction to what Minister said, yes, I believe the public hearings process served a very useful purpose well. the that has as But being specific about the towns of Grand Bank and Fortune and the public hearing that was held therE~. It dernonstratE~d very clearly the overwhelming opposition to the proposed amalgamation of the towns of Fortune and Grand Bank. Initially a hearing was scheduled for the court house in Grand Bank and had to be rescheduled because the meeting room could not accommodate all those who showed up, the residents of both towns, to participate in the hearings.

It had to be rescheduled to a high school gymnasium which on the night of thE~ hE~arings was fiLled to capacity. There was overwhelming opposition to the proposed amalgamation of those two communities. Living in Fortune, Mr.Speaker, and L29 April 3, 1990 Vol XLI being from tht::' town of Grand Bank and spendtng a significant amount of time in both comrnuni ties, I only knolAJ of four· people in the tlAJO towns that suppotnt amalgamation. I could nanlE! th.:~m for the House if I wanted to but I will not do that.

One of the four people appE~ared at LhE~ publ.:i.c hearings and spoke tn favour of amalgamation, the only one that did. The reasons for opposing amalgamation arE~ VE!ry logical and reasonable, Mr. Speaker. ThE!lne is fiVE! kiJ.omE!tE!rs that SE!parate UiE! t.wo communities and the E~xpanston of both towns are not towards each other, it is on the ends atAJay fr·om each other. It is not that. t:hr::• two towns are growing together.

When you look at basic services such as fire fighting and snow clearing, the services and equipment that is now in existence located in both towns would be needed even if two towns were amalgamated so you will not cut back or need any less equipment. The people in Fortune lAJould neE!cl their snow cleared at the same time as the people in Grand Bank and the e q u i p m E• n t i s go :i. n g p r E• l .. t y weJ.J. fuJ.l- · tirnE! when you haVE! snot.~.J problc:.Hns. The sarne, of course, pertains to the firE! fighU.ng capabilities, you would need a fire stat.ion in both towns.

The capital works requirement for· both towns is ver·y, very substantia].. That in no way would be reduced if you installed amalgamation. The work that is in Grand Bank needs to be done and tAJhat is in FortunE! as tAJell ne~;;~ds to be done so there wou1d not bE! any n•ducti.on in thE• amount of work required to be done. As a maLter of facl: thE! sl:udies that tAJelnE! donE• by both totAJn councils who officiaJ.ly opposed this amalgamation proposal did a number of financial analysis on the situation and found that Lhe1ne No. 16 (AFternoon) I~ 29 '\

would realJ.y be VE!ry, very little savings by way of amalgamating the two towns. I would just say to the Minister that the only change really required in that particular amalgamation proposal is to forget it altogether because of this overwhelming resistance to the proposed amalgamation measure for those two communities. What is confusing to people is that every second day we heard the Minister say something a little bit different.

He talks about amalgamation not being forced upon people but yet I heard him on an open line program a couple of weeks ago saying, 'we are nol going to force this upon anyone, town councils can oppose, people can oppoSE!, but in the final analysis we will take it to the Legislature and have a dE!bate on the issue.' Now we all know what that entails. The Government has the majority, and if you bring amalgamation debate to this House it quite naturally will be passed by the Government who holds the majority, so in essence you are saying you would legislate amalgamation upon some community.

People out and about the communities have found that somewhat confusing, sometimes you say , no , if the p eo p 1 e do no t want it it will not be enforced but yet you keep saying that you are going to bring it to the Legislature for debate which in essence means the same thing. MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! The han. gentleman's time is up . MR. MATTHEWS: I just want to go on record, Mr .

Speaker, in concluding, and present l:his petition on behalf of L30 April 3, 1990 VoJ XLI approximately 1200 people from Grand Bank and Fortune who adamantly oppose the amalgamation proposal put forward by the Minister and Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Mini stein of Municipal and Provincial Affairs . MR . GULLAGE : Mr. Speaker, I am certainly atAJare of the hearings that t,o.JelnE· hE!J.d in Fortune - Grand Bank.

As Fa1n as the J.ocation was concerned for the hearing we ran into the sarne problem in several circum stances throughout the Island wher~~ in most cases we asked the town clerk to arrange a meeting ha11 and t.he town clerk did not anticipatE• t.he numbers of people, so we subsequentJ.y had to r'E!Schedule and usua1ly use a schoo1 qyrnnasi.tHII or something large E!nough t.o accommodate the numbers of people, · and we gladly did that .

Mr 0 Speaker, as I said earlier, I am going to repeat myself, we certainly want to hear from the commissioners and their reports. rhat. is the whole purpose of t.he pubJ.ic hearing proces s. We IAJil 'l listen to what the con11nissioners haVE! to say which is a rE!flecti.on of the people's views. We wilJ. also li sten to the feasibility report that they tAJiJJ . present, which goes along J,o.Jil:h t-.he hearings proCE!SS, in fact, is par·t of it.

So the entire feasibi .lity of putting together . two communities or more 1Aii.11 be looked at by rny Department and by rnysE:•lf' and from that wi11 flow a recommendation to GovernrnE:'nt 0 And I will consult with the communities. If we have a situation where, for example, Fortune wouJ.d 1 ikE' to see amalgamation and Grand Bank wou1d No. 16 (AftE!nlOon) R:JO \

not, I would talk to the community that is opposing it, if the commissioners are recommending amalgamation, and find out what their concerns are. Perhaps they are legitimate concerns and they should not be amalgamated. Certainly, before proceeding t.o Government with a recommendation, I would want to find out why the dissenting community holds the views it dOE!S, in opposit.ion to the commissioners 1 report, in all fairness, and I would take the time to do that.

I certainly do not want to take the time to just. simply go in to Government with a group of commissioners 1 reports and say, 1 Let us proceE!d, 1 in the face of communities that are opposing the particular amalgamation. I want to sit down with those communities and find out why they are, indeed, in opposition, and I will certainly take the time to do that. We lengthened ·the process and extended the election U.me to November of this year in some communities and some groupings, because we found it was necessary to give the commissioners adequate time.

If you recall, in the beginning when this process started, a lot of councils were saying, 1 We need more time. We need more time. 1 I hate to see any criticism now of the fact that we are giving more than enough time, because certainly, we have made sure that ample time is provided for diaJ.ogue and to rnakE! surE! th1;1 hearings and feasibtlity process are carried out correctJ.y. If I might clarify the point on thE! extension to NovernbE!r, that is only an ex tension that tAii.ll take place if it is necessary.

We have the op · l~ion of holding an election at any tirne, with any group of L31 April 3, 1990 Vol XLI it is recommr::~nd,~d pl"OCeed, if thE! communities, if and we want to commissioners 1 finaJ.ized and we to proceed with an reports are haVE! a dE!Cision election. The order simply reads: 1 an extension of the election datE! up to November 1 , it does not say it has to be November.

So we will try to complete as many of the groupings as we can and proceed with elections as quickly as possible; but, in aLl. fairness to the communities involved, giving ample time for their dialogue with my Department and tAli th l:he commissioners, and ampJ.e time when the comrnissionE!rS have compl,:!ted their rE!ports, so that I can haVE! a dialogue, as thE! Minister, u..r:i.th the cormnunities that hoJ.d opposing vi1;1ws to the corr1mission,:=!l"S, I think, that is important as well. I wanted to see that adequate time was given and I think that tAJas a wise move.

With the E•XCE:'ption of one or tlAJo communiti1:!s, I have not heard anybody dissent. or give HlE! an opposing view as to why we should rush into an E!}E!Ction and not do this whole process properly. MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Leader of thE! Opposition . MR. RIDEOUT : Mr. Speaker, I tAJould like to rnake a few remarks in support of the peU.tion so abJ.y presented by rny colleague from Grand Bank on behalf of 1,200 residents of Fortune and Grand Bank, who are very much concerned about the issue of amalgamation.

I do not know, whE!t.hel" or not, in ancient church history, th,:;.re uJas a person cal1ed Saint Eric, but iF there was, Mr. Speaker, h1~ must have been the patron saint of 'lost No. 16 (After-noon) IDl \

causes. AN HON. MEMBER : Saint Jude. MR. RIDEOUT : That was Saint Jude, that is what it was! me when the petition Jude's. MR. SIMMS : Eric the - Amalgamator. AN HON. MEMBER: St. Jude's. MR. RIDEOUT: was it? Oh, It triggered carnt:~ from St. Yes, St. Jude's. But, I mean, it should haVE! been • Eric 1 , Mr. Speaker, because this Minister embarked, I say to him, on what could have been a very useful exercise and process for Municipal Government in Newfoundland and Labrador. But the Minister, Mr.

Speaker, unfortunately, embarked on that process in a way that terrorized · communi ties, got thousands of people in dozens and dozens of communities in this Province totally upset. If the Minister had gone about it in a sound, sensible, reasonable way, rather than dribbling off to a weekend paper about certain configurations of communities he had a vision of, that nobody else had heard tell of, Mr . Speaker, before they picked up a weekend paper and read about the configuration of communities. AN HON. MEMBER : (Inaudible) . MR. RIDEOUT: That is the truth.

The first that many, many communities heard of the various configurations was when they read it in the press, Mr. Speaker, within days of the Minister having walked into the L32 April 3, 1990 Vol XLI Department. Certainly there could not have been any t.tme for him to tonsult with anybody, to consult with any officials in hts DepartmE!nt, thE! Ministe•r, in othe1n words - AN HON. MEMBER: He""'Cfi'd"' ,no"t"c "o'ns ul t wi t.h Cabinet . MR. RIDEOUT : Certainly did not have time to consult with Cabinr::•t, thE! Minister, Mr. Spc:!aker, really, in other WOinds blelAJ the oppo1ntun:i.ty.

He really blew the opportunity to proceed in a sound, sensible, reasonable fashion to try to bring out a will among communities to come closer togE!ther, to sha1~e services. AN HON. MEMBER: Eric the Red . MR. RIDEOUT: Eric the Red, the tE!rrorizer, terrorizing municipalities from one end of Newfoundland and Labrador to the othE!r. That lAJas bad enough, he b1elAJ that opportunity, totally blew that opportunity to make some :inroads in a way in lAJhich co111munit .i.c?s could be brought on sidE!, to join together to amalgamate, at least to share services in a regional fashion.

But having blown that opportunity, Mr. Speaker, the Minister then set forth and the Government set forth to attempt to use blackmail tactics to get communities to comE! on side with this ill-fated, ill-thought out, ill-conceived amalgamation scheme brought on by the Minister. They attempted to b1ackmail communities into saying that if you do not give some indication of public support For our amalgamation proposals, you bE!tLE!I'' not expect any capital works No. 16 ( Af let" noon) R32 '

considerations. There ar'E! a number of comrnuniU.es in this Province who have been very vocal, very vocal against amalgamation, and who have been to·tally ignored in this year's capital works Budget, totally ignored, Mr. Speaker. Then when they found out that that was not going to bend, of course, they started to try to alleviate the heat somewhat from some of those rnunicipaliU.es, and started to approve some funding for them, but then started the second round of blackmail, and the second round of blackmail, Mr.

Speaker, had ·to do with the Department, the Minister dirE!Ctly, instructions to his officials to force municipalities to put in place certain mil rates. Neuer beforE!, the Minister can shake his head, it is a fact - MR. GULLAGE: You have lost all your credibility . MR. RIDEOUT: You have lost a11 credibility, I say to the Minister. I say to the Minister he has lost all credibility. The Minister shouJ.d not be concerned about rny credibility, he should be concerned about his own.

The Minister out there in the municipalities of Newfoundland and Labrador today, on three or four different issues now related to, but aJ.l part of the amalgamation process has totally blown it, Mr. Speaker. Totally blown it. Yes he is just as gr,~at as the Minister of Finance, we saw how great the Minister of Finance was last night and again today.

Hoof and Mouth Disease of the highest order. fhe Minister cannot opE1n his mouth at all, lAJhethE!r it is on a payroll tax or on a constitutional Accord without. stuffing the foot, ankh1 and a11, aJ.rnost up to the knee caps, right L33 April 3, 1990 Vol XLI in his mouth, right in the gob, and the Minister of Municipal Affairs is getting just as bad. He is terrorizing communities from one end of this Province to the other, he gets up with the gall of calling those hearings, feasibility studies. Feasibility studies! They are not feasibility studies. AN HON. MEMBER: This is on radio . MR. RIDEOUT : I am glad it is!

I arn deLLghtNl that it is and I hope people an?. listening to it in communities, the dozens of communities that this MirdstE•r is tr·ying to for'CE! into amalgamation. I J"ea lly hop1~ it is. But the Minister wants people to beLieve ha1F the trul~h again, that t:hts is a feasibJJ:i.Ly process, it is not!

It is a public hearing process on one issue, amalgamation - i.t. is not~ on the- feasibiJ.ity of aiTlalgarna't.i.on arnong various municipalities in this Province at aLl., and thr:• people of the various cornmuni.ties saw through the Minister's plan u e r y , u e r y quick 1 y . 1-1 E~ lJJO u 1 d have beE!n much wi.SE!In to tr·y to lead by bringing people willingly, willingly to thE! a1naJ.gamati.on process rather than try to take thE!m there lJJith thE• terTolnist approach, and the blackrnrlil approach that he has taken over the last several months. AN HON. MEMBER : Either that or resign . Orders of the Day MR.

SPEAKER: Motion 12. I bE!}ieue the ME!rllbe In for No. 16 (Afternoon) R33 \

Lewisporte adjourn~d the debate . The hon. the Member for Lewisporte. MR. PENNEY: I believe it is eighteen minu ·tes. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. When I adjourned the debate last night, I had presented to the House of Assembly my understanding of the position that Canada was in, my understanding of what the constitution was all about and why it was not accepted by Quebec, what Quebec proposed we do abou ·t it to accommodate them, and we had led up to the Meech Lake Accord and that is where I finished last night.

Now the PrernJ.er of this Province and the new Liberal Government has been fighting the Meech Lake Accord for one reason, it is because it is simply not in the best interest of Newfoundland and Labrador and, Mr. Speaker, it is no .t in the best interest of Canada.

The primary concerns we have are related to, number one; the creation of a special legislative status for one province, number two; the restrictions of the Federal spending power that will prevent the achievement of equality of opportunity for thE! people of Newfoundland, vis-a-vis other Canadians and wi11 keep them in a permanent state of economic disparity. Number three; the extension of the constitutional veto to all provinces that will effectively nullify all hope of Senate reform and prevent Newfoundland and Labrador from ever becoming a ful1 participating Province of Canada.

Now if I might take a few moments, Mr. Speaker, to look at each one of l:hese concerns. First, the objection to thC:' distinct society 1,_34 April 3, 1990 Vol XLI clausE• and the speciaJ. status. The legislative status that tAiill be given to the French speaking people. This status tAJi.ll only be given to the French speaking people in Quebec, Mr . Speaker, not to the French speaking pE!OpJ.e in New Brunswick or Nova Scotia or Newfoundland. Certainly the French people in Quebec are different from us. They have a distinct language. They have a distinct culture, and they have a distinctly different legal system.

And it is finE! that t.hey want to protect it . As Newfoundlanders we can reaJ.ize the need to protect and pre se rve everything that is rich and distinct in our heritage and in our culture. But NE!l.~o.JFoundJ.and is every bit a distinct sociEd:y in a cuJ.tural sense as any othe1n place in Canada, including QuebE!C and tAle must never, ever forget that fact. We too have our distinctive features that make us what we are, Newfoundlanders and LabradorJ.ans. We too want to protect and preserve that which makes us different.

What we must reaLize is that Quebec has be en ablE! and continues to be able to promote its distinctive character with it 1 s existing legislative powers and certain direct and indirect protection already guaranteed by the constitution. Meech Lake simply goes too far, Mr. Speaker. But let us not forget t.hat we arE! also similar in rnany rE!SpE!C ts as Canadians. There is a sense oF fairness, there is a sense of br:>ing Canadian !:hat br'inqs us together. WE! beLieve :in E!quali.ty of opportunity. We are very 1nuch alike in our recreational pursuits. We all have a cornrnon interest in our NationaJ. Game, Hockey.

We do not all ciWI?.J " For thE! Toronto Maple Leafs, I suppose. No. 16 (Afternoon) 1n4

AN HON. MEMBER: I do. MR. PENNEY: WelJ. lo~.Je all do not. Some of us cheer For some of the other teams, but we all appreciate the game, and I am sure we all feel very proud when our nationa1 team tAJi.ns a game. But that is part of our common heritage. It is. part of what makes us Canadians . Mr. Speaker, to accept Meech Lake as it now stands is to consign N~-,.wfoundland to second rate or third rate status in what should be a full partnership position in the Canadian Federation. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! AN liON. MEMBER : That is right . MR.

PENNEY: The Meech Lake Accord is Fundamentally wrong because it fails to reflect the one non-negotiable fact of nationhood in a Federal state. Every citizen of Canada has the right to expect equaJ.ity LL.dth E•very other' cit:.iZE:'n in the land regardless of where he or she lives. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. PENNEY: Regardless of whethe1n he liVE!S in Ontario or Manitoba, Quebec Ol""' NetAJfoundland. The second main concern is the restriction on the FederaJ. spending power.

For this Province it is important to have a strong central Government with the capacity to initiate and implement national, social and economical programs designed to promotE! equaJ. L35 April 3, 1990 Vol XLI oppolntunity for' aJ.l Canadians and to redress regional disparity. These include nati .onaJ. prog1narns in areas of exclusive provincial jurisdiction whereby the Federal Government while not, of course, administering the program establishes firm minimal national standards. The Canadian Medicare System is one such program that very well might not have been possible under a program like the Meech Lake Accord.

Another much needE!cl program tha l: wou1d :in all 1 i k e 1 i hood n e,v E! r hap p e n • if ME! e c h Lake passes, is a national day care program. Let me give you another example, Mr. Speaker: Suppose the Federal Government were to say l:.ha t:. many municipalities in the country do not have adequate water and sewer, but they do not have an adequate tax revenue to provide these services. So the Government of Canada decides to provide financial assistance to every municipa1ity that say has a per capita·tax base of under $5000. Now that would heJ.p us tlnE!TIIE!ndous1y.

That wou] cl benefit Newfoundland and Labrador to no end. But it lAJouJ.d apply aJ.l across Canada, . of course, dS it should. b~~cause we in NE•lo~.JfoundJ.and and Labrador ar'e no rnor1:=! special than the peopJ.e in Quebec. We are no more special than lhe pE•oplH in Ontario or British CoJ.urnb-:i.a. But Mr. Speaker, we a In~-,. no 1~:! s s special either.

So such a program would apply all across thE! country as :Lt. should, and it would help correct the disparity in NE•LJ..Jfound1and and thE• disparity in New BrtH1SlAJick and ·in Prince Edward IsJ.and. it wou1d help bring us up to a comparabl':> level with Ontario and Quebec. No. 16 (Afternoon) IDS

Except, Mr. Speaker, under Meech Lake Ontario and Quebec would have the right to opt out. They would have the right to opt out and get pro rata compensation. I understand they would probably very well do just that, and they will continue to maintain their municipalities so much ahead of ours. The ability ·to opt out of national cost-shared . programs, particularly in the case or the larger provinces, and receive compensation would create a tremendous disincentive for the Federal Government even to initiate new programs.

Inevitably the result would be a patchwork of programs across the country with different standards and a steadily weakening commitment to reduce regional disparities and promote equal opportunity for all Canadians, espe .cially in the poorer disadvantaged regions. Equally inevitably this will steadily weaken our sense, however fragile, of national community, and that. Mr. Speaker. is our main concern. Canada will be a better place if we recognize that we are all provinces of Canada and that we all, as provinces, have the same standards and that no province is entitled to special status.

Not Quebec, not Ontario, not British Columbia, and not Newfoundland, not any province. We are all fully participating provinces of Canada and we are all Canadians of equal opportunity in this country. The third concern, Mr. Speaker, which some would argue to be the most important is the extention of the Constitutional veto. The Constitutional veto or the right to turn down the Constitution to all provinces might very well accommodate Quebec, but it would effectively halt all significant L36 April 3, 1990 Vol XLI Constitutional change, most notably Senate reform.

Meech Lake, if it goes thr·ough, wiJ.1 require a unanimous approval of every province in order to rE!form the Senate instead of the existing system that we have now requiring only seven out of the ten. The importance of Senate reform to a Province like ours, Mr. Speaker, cannot be overes tirna ted. Sin c ~~ tAle joined ConfE!deration t.hE·r·e haVE! been people maldng the case l:.hat because we are a srna11 popuJ.at.ion and have only seven Members in the Federal Parliament we have li t:t1e say in Federal decisions. and tAJe should have lit.t1e say in FE!dera1 decisions.

They say we cannot have any real say because our numbers are so small, and cornpa1~1~d to Ontario and Quebec tAle arE! very unimportant. And Mr. Bourassa says we should accept this and say nothing about the condi t.ion we find ourselves in and bE! thankful for the crumbs that fall from Quebec 1 s table. Mr. Speaker, I say that is not acceptable. In 1961 the avc:.>rage earned income per person in Newfoundland was 53 per cent of the average for Canada. In 1987 Newfoundland 1 s average incom0 was still only 56 per cent of the Canadian average.

As the Prernier said in his presentation a few days ago at that rate we will eventually catch up. It wi11 only take 300 years. Instead of the poorer Atlantic Provinces getting a larger share of regional development money thE!Y notAl ~1Ed .. a smaller proportion and, of course, Newfoundland gets the least of all. The reason for that, of course, is 'that the programs that are intended for the poorer regions arE! soon extended t.o lhr:~ richer reqions because t.he MPs For those more populace arE:~as vote to No. 16 (After·noon) ID6 \

"" get these services and these programs for their constituents. I do not blame them for that because that is what they were elected to do, represent their people, and they do it well. At the present rate of growth, Mr. Speaker, within just a few YE!ars, Ontario will have half the population of this country and then they l.o~.lill haVE! the power to impose Government policies for the entire country, from British Columbia to Newfoundland. The beauty of a federal system of government is that it accommodates and balances the needs of all the individual parts to make up the whole.

Canada made a gross eJ~ror in 1867 - they probably made a gross error in 1986 too - but 1867 it made a gross error in not putting the federal sysb,~m in place properly. The members of our Senate are allocated proportionately to population and appoi~ted at the discretion of the Prime Minister, which gives Quebec twenty-four, Ontario twenty-four, gives little Prince Edward Island only four. and it gives us only six. The United States of American did not make that error. The state of Vermont, for example has Fewer people than Newfoundland but it has two senators.

The sta·tE! of California has a larger population than the entire Dominion of Canada and it too. has two senators. They have a balanced functioning federal state. When the han. Member for Green Bay spoke here the other day he said that the senators from Mississippi were not equal to the senators from California. I would like to suggest to you, Sir, that the senators arE! all equal. They all have the same size vote, they all have the same number of votes, so they are equal in all respects.

L37 · April 3, 1990 Vol XLI If Newfoundland and Labrador is ever to become a full participating Province of Canada we must have senate rE!form. That is why our PremiE!r and every member of this Government is supporting the Triple E Senate proposal, a Senate that is elected equal and E!ffE!Ctive. Mr. Speake I~. I will add, that is not. t.he opinion of the Premier, that is not. the opinion of part of this caucus. that is the opinion shal"ed by every single man and l.i.JOman in this caucus.

The Opposition argues that instead of giving more authority and power to a central federal Government we should be giving rnore powt::~l~ t.o t he provinces. Mr. Speaker, l.i.Jhat good is power if we do not have the financial ability to do something with it? We have had complete power and jurisdiction in Heall:h , but for the past Few years the Government of the day has been continuing to close hospital beds because they did not have the money to keep them open. Now, fortunately with our new Governmr:1nt we are J"eVE!rsing that.

We are re-allocating the Few dollars that we have and. we are open".ing the bE!dS that l:he prevtous Administration closed. The same applies. of course. to Educat:ion. We have complete power and jurisdiction but we do not have the financial ability to provide the kind of Education we need. Mr. SpeakE!r~ l.i.Jhat l.i.Jould we do if we get total power and jurisdict.ton over the Fishertes? This is what they arE! proposJ.ng, total power and jurisdiction over the fisheries. Hot.l.l would WE! pay For the cost of patroll:i.nq 4-00,000 square miles of the North Atlantic?

If tAJe car-ried l.:he Opposition 1 s pol.I.Jer trip, and that: is what it is, Mr. Speaker, it is No. 16 ( Af'LE!rnoon) R37 ·,

just a power trip, if we carried it to its logical conclusion, and let us reduce the Federal Government's power to something that I suppose they would have to concede, defence matters, that would have to rest with the Federal Government, let us give all other powers to the provinces. What would Newfoundland do then? Where would we get the money to pay for the unemployment insurance? Mr. Speaker, where would we get the money for Medicare? Where would we get the money to subsidize the transportation cost to Labrador? Where would we get the money to maintain and improve our highways?

And where would we ultimately get the money we need to build a Trans-Labrador Highway? To a small province like Newfoundland, in great need of help from the nation, reducing the power of the Federal Government is the worst possible thing that cou-;Ld happen. It would ultimately spell disaster. The han. the Member for Grand Falls wishes to give me extended time. MR. SIMMS: Yes. MR. PENNEY: Thank you . Mr. SpE!aker, the Newfoundland Government does not object to the recognition of Quebec as a distinct society - on the contrary.

On the basis of language, culture, and legal system Quebec is distinctly different from any other society of Canada. That however, does not give it status and rights that no other Province has. L.38 April. 3, 1990 Uol XLI It is a serious contradiction to defend the coll.ectiue rights of one group by suppressing the rights of othel''S. Mr. SpE•akE!l~, lAJE! will not allow that to happen. As Premier Wells stated to the First Ministers in Ottawa, and the han. the Member fo1~ St. Mary's The Capes (Mr.

HE!arn) l~epeated yesterday, the worst flaw in the Accord is the process that results in e leu en First Ministers te 11 ing the 26 million people of Canada how they will be governed. Instead of the 26 million peop1E! of Canada telling the First Ministers how they wil.l govern. It is supposed to be the goVE!rnment of the people, by l·:.he pE!Ople, and for thE! people. Not government of the poli t.icians, by the politicians, for the politicians. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. PENNEY: Mr.

Speaker, the stand that we ·have taken is being supported not only by the majority of Newfoundlanders but by the majority of Canadians, and that is evidenced by the rnail that ts coming in from aLl OVE:1r the nation every day. Mr. Bourassa's '<'lll or nothing' approach must. bE· rejected. I would like to close with a quote from President J.F.

Kennc::•dy, he once said: 'Let us neuE·r negotiate out of fear but lc~t us never fear to negotiatE!.' This is the spirit th~t must guide future debate on the Meech Lake issue and it must be done IAlithout intimidatton From anybody anywh.:•re in this nation, so that a11 c:Hross this country we can be consider1:;od No. 1.6 (Aft.E!rnoon) R3B ...

equal. Thank you very much. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han . the Member for Harbour Main. MR. DOYLE : Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I am very pleased, Mr. Speaker, to have the opportunity today to stand in the han. House and to express a fE!W thoughts and a few views on one of the most important issues to face the Province of Newfoundland in quite a number of years. As a matter of fact, it is probably one of the most important issues to facE! the pE!Ople of Canada in a lot of years. Over the last number of days, Mr.

Speaker, we have heard many, many fine speeches from Members on both sides of the House of Assembly and that was a prime example of a fine speech we heard just a momene ago. w~::~ have heard rnany passionate spE!eches, we have heard technical speeches, we have heard, in some instances, very informative speeches and, in a lot of instances, very fiery speeches.

But I guess the one thing that all the speeches that we have heard in the House of Assembly over the last couple of weeks haVE! in common, is they all reflect a concern, a deep, and in some cases, a very passionate concern for the welfare of this great country of ours. And well we should be concerned because, as was said, Mr. Speaker, initially, it is one of the most important issues to face the people of the ProvinCE! and thE! people of Canada L39 April 3, 1990 Vol XLI in a lot of years. We haVE! heard Members speak about their vision of Canada and LAJhat Canada should mean to each and eVE!r'y onE• of us.

We h.:~ard the country rE!fE•rred to in glowing terms. In some speeches we had it r1:;!ferred to as a farnJ.J.y, and I do not think I would be too far out, Mr. Speaker, if I were to say that thr:• farrdly, the Confederation family that we are living in today, is CE•r'la:inJ.y on the verge of break up and break down. It might be a brE!akdown that lAJE• may never, never t~ecover from. And when we get right down to it, Mr.

Speaker, it is hard sometirn~~s. to be a member of the family, because you have to livE• l:ogE~ther and you 1·1ave to work togE!thE>J", and even, on times, you have to bicker and you have to fight together. But the one thing we all hope for is that at the end of the day, no matter what haRpens, l:he Family stays together. That is lAJhat. people right across this country are hop i n g for' , that ' i s w h cl t Uw y are u..Jishing for, that ·thE! fatn-.i ly wi11 remain together after all this fighting and bi.ckE•ring "i.s over. Mr.

Speaker, this family is in grave trouble, as evE!ryone in thE! country is u..Jell aware, and unless we move quickly, unless we move very expeditiously -to save it, it could vE•ry weLl be thE! Pnd of the nation, the end of the countr·y as we have known it for many, many hundreds of years. It may well be the turning point, the beginning of a new na t.ion, a na t.:i.on that. is going to be very much different from what it is today. · I do not believe in this House, Newfoundland or should be selling l:.ha l: any Mernber any person in across Canada, Qu~~ be c short. No. 16 (Afternoon) R39 '\

Tempers are running very, very high in the Province of Quebec right now, and a lot of discussions are going on as to whether they would be better off ·in some other forum, either sovereignty association or completely separated From Canada, and some of the debate we have seen in the House of Assembly over the last twenty-four hour period, really does not do anything to assure the people of Quebec that the nation has their best interests at heart. We saw the Minister of Finance, just a few hours ago, less than twenty-four hours ago, rise in his place and make some very inflammatory remarks with respect to Quebec.

To say that we now have Quebec now in the position they have had us in for years can only be termed by the people of Quebec as being very inflammatory. I am sure the people of Quebec today are looking at those remarks of the Minister of Finance, a senior Minister 'in the Government of Newfoundland, and they are t a k i n g a v e-r y , v e r y dim view of it. The Minister of Finance has embarrassed the people of Newfoundland, h.e has embarrassed Newfoundland and, I might the Government of with these remarks say to him - AN HON. MEMBER: -Andhe· ··has e.mbarras sed the Premier. MR.

DOYLE: Yes, he has embarrassed the Premier, and that is For sure. I do not believe he has done the Premier's credibility much good in this particular instance, and certainly not the credibility of the Province of Newfoundland. Now, we take no great pleasure in L4 -0 ApriJ. 3, 1.990 Vol XLI that, in seeing remarks like that made by a senior Minister in the House of Assembly. But, Mr. Speaker, they have bet::~n 1nade and, as I said, it does nothing to assure the people of Quebec that we have their best interests at heart.

The question we haVE! to ask ourselves in this debate is, do WE· want to preserve this country and build on it and make it grotAJ, or do we want to b::'!ar it down, do we want to tear it a p a r• t , b r E! a I< i. t u p and look on as the country we respect and we Jove and we adrrr.ire disintegrates right before our very eyes? Mr . SpE!ai<E!r, thE! fir·st st:E!p in that whole process is to bring the fami1y togE!ther, and that is what the Premiers were trying to do back a year or so ago lAJhen thE!Y began this process.

We all realize that further reform is necessary, btjt tAle cannot haue further reforrn if we do not. havE• all members of l:lie Farrd.ly conr.ing together in order to rnake that refor·m. So the question we have to ask ourselves is do we lAiant. to break ·the country up, or · do we want to build on it and do we want. to preserve it? I believe most people, Mr. Speaker, whE!n facli:~d with that type of decision, would opt For the J.atter, to buil.d on it and make it grow: So we have some fundamental choiCE!S WE! have to make and we have to reflect on.

Do we want to be naU.on buj 1.dE•rs, or do we want to tear the whol.e thing apart? Government says, Mr. Speaker, that we cannot afford to pas s Meech Lake in its present form . I think a bE!tter question which has to bE! asked, a much bet:ter question and a more appropriate question, is can we afford not to pass Meech No. 16 (Afternoon) r~LJo '\

'-' Lake in its present form? We hear a lot of the Premiers in the country today saying that it is not a perfect document, and we all realize that it is not a perfect document. No document which attempts to do what the Meech Lake Accord is attempting to do is ever a perfect one, but the question we have to ask is how long do we have to wait for a perfect document? How long will we have to wait before we can have a Constitution which takes into account every concern of every individual and every Canadian in this great country of ours? The Premiers oF the various provinces, Mr.

Speaker, worked long and hard to bring us to where we are today, and they realized, when putting this particular Constitution together. that it did not address the concerns of every single individual, every single person, every group, every minority, every institution in the country, but I think everyone agreed that it was a good first step, it was an excellent first step, yes, a bi.g fi .rst st.E!P forward that set out and accomplished a lot of objectivss. So now, Mr.

Speaker, we are at the crossroads, and the decisions which have to be taken in the next few months ar·e certainly going to determine a lot about how we are going to be able to live in this country for the next one hundred years or more. Some people are saying it is bad for the country, a lot of people are saying it is good for the country, and your rnind has to go back to the free trade debate, which was on the go a number of months ago, and you had somE!

Members opposite going from door to door tE!lling people they were L41 April 3, 1990 Vol XLI going to lose their old age pensions. their baby bonus and their social programmes if the Fr~;:~~;:~ Trade AgrE!ernent went th1~ou~1h in the form they had before the people. And they were quite effective, Mr . Speaker, because people believed that, that they were going to lose their pensions and their baby bonus and their UIC if we had the Free Trade Agreement as it was drafted. Mr. Speaker, what we see before us now is quite possibly the breakup of the nation. The Member For Green Bay last night. Mr.

Speaker. referred to the social programmes we have in Canada and the possibility of losing thoSE! social programmes should the country as we know it today break up . And that is. a very r1::>al possibi.li. ·ty. a very serious possibility. It is not like the debate which went on in the free trade debate, where people were spreading rumours and sprE!ading lies, esse