Manitoba Hansard — 9 May 1978 (Sitting 38B, 31st Legislature, 2nd Session)

31-2-38b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, May 9, 1978 f'... Time: 8.00 p.m. SUPPLY - PUBLIC WORKS MR. CHAIRMAN: Committee come to order. We are on Page 72, Item 6.(b), Acquisition/Construc tion of Physical Assets. 6.(

b) Other Items. Prior to the break for Private Members' Hour the Member for The Pas was partially through his statement. Does he wish to continue? MR. McBRIDE: Yes, Mr. Chairman, thank you very much .

Before we adjourned the Minister had explained that he was now familiar with the situation with the Courthouse and Jail at The Pas and that he and the Attorney-General and I assume that the Minister responsible for cor rections have this high on the priority lists , and I certainly would like to thank the Minister for that effort to make sure the project was high on the list and the fact that he is now fully aware of the problems in the situation in regard to that facility at The Pas. As I was explaining , Mr.

Chairman , right now they are functioning at The Pas in temporary trailer unit facilities which is not ideal in terms of a correctional facility . It requires extra personnel and extra staff to keep guard over the doors , etc ., and even with the new trailer facility those problems with the Fire Commissioner's office because of staff available to unlock doors , etc . should a fire break out at that facility.

There was a number of problems that showed some bungling on the part of the new government when , in fact , the Minister of Corrective and Rehabilitation Services wrote to The Pas Chamber of Commerce as opposed to the Town Council and others who were directly concerned . For example , Mr. Chairman, on March 14, 1978, L. R. Sherman , Minister, wrote to Mr. Bob Campbell , president of The Pas Chamber of Commerce , saying that the proposed facilities at The Pas were given careful consideration and a decision has been made with my concurrence to defer construction for one year . Now , Mr.

Chairman , that was announced by the Minister to the Chamber of Commerce and he was unaware that he had sent that letter until it was brought to his attention. The other problem that has arisen that I think for that situation the Minister of Public Works,certainly I can't get after him too much because he probably wasn 't aware of the lette r sent out by the Minister of Corrective and Rehabilitation Services either .

However , there was, I think, a point at which the Minister might have been more effective than he was since he now realizes the high priority of this , and that was at the stage when Cabinet was considering which items would remain cut, which items would remain frozen , and which items would proceed . At that time the Minister, had he been fully familiar with the situation , either the Minister of Public Works or the Minister of Health and Social Development , could have ind icated that the facility was easily broken into two parts; that is, the Jail facility and the court house facility , because

whereas the jail facility could no longer function in the old building, the old building could still be used for a court room on a temporary basis , because if there were a fire or other kind of emergency people could leave,

whereas with the jail facility the problems are much greater. So I thin k that is where there was a falling down on the part of the Ministers concerned with this project where they could have said , "Well, just a minute, as we are reducing these projects this isn't a $4.5 million project , it's a $1 .8 or $2 million project , which will meet the immediate needs and the immediate concerns." So I think there was a slip up there on the part of the Minister , and I don 't know whether it was this Minister or the other Minister . As a matter of fact, Mr.

Chairman , I could never get it clarified which Minister sort of took these projects before Cab inet. The earlier discussion that I caught the end of with the Member for Elmwood and the Minister, indicates that the Minister responsible for that function, that is the Attorney General or the Minister of Corrections or whatever department it is, seems to be the one that carries the ball as opposed to the Minister of Public Works .

Since when I asked that question the First Minister got very much on the offensive or became very offensive , maybe the Minister could clarify it for me now- who does take these matters, like a jail facility or like a court house facility, to Cabinet ; is it taken by himself or is it taken by the Minister that has the responsibility for the operation that will take over that building once it is completed? So maybe that is one question that the Minister could address himself to .

It is my understanding, for example , that the jail part of the facilities that were designed were very spartan, and they were an essential part of the project. I am not that familiar nor did I see the plans for the Court House part, which the Minister says there might be some room for reduction or savings . But I think in comparison with other jail facilities on the square foot basis , the proposed correctional facility or jail at The Pas was quite low , compared with other jail facilities .

The other problem that arises that maybe the Minister could also deal with is the situation now where there is a temporary permit allowed for the trailer units at The Pas, on the understanding that the correctional facilities would have been finished this year, and that the new facilities would have been moved into and the old trailers would have been moved out to the Egg Lake Camp. What for example will the Minister do if the Town of The Pas says, "Well , we are just not renewing your permit for trailer facilities anymore.

Since the Province of Manitoba didn't carry out its understanding, its deal with the Town of The Pas, then the Town of The Pas is going to become stubborn, and we are just not going to allow you to have those trailer units occupying the site at The Pas." Mr. Speaker , in that regard I would like to read into the record a letter from the Mayor of the Town 1953

Tuesday, May 9, 1978 of The Pas, dated March 23rd, 1978, to Honourable H. Enns, Minister of Public Works: "Dear Mr. Minister: As you are aware I have discussed with you personally and with your Deputy Minister , Mr. Brako, the status of a new correctional. .. " MR. ENNS: A fine and honourable gentleman that Mr. Brako . MR. McBRYDE: " ... institute and court house for the Town of The Pas. Both projects were announced and tendered by the former government, however the new government delayed the awarding of contracts pending a review under its Restraint Program .

As I have pointed out to you and to at least two members of the Cabinet who have inspected the present correctional facility, the existing operation is only temporary, and as a matter of fact is operating under a temporary permit issued by the Town , which expires December 31st, 1978. There has never been anydoubtthat a new correctional institute is an absolute necessity at The Pas, following the closu re of a former facility in a building commonly referred to as the Court House on Fisher Avenue , because of the extremely high fire hazards.

It was for that reason that temporary quarte rs were planned until a new facility was constructed , and it was hoped that the new facility would be completed by December 31st. 1978, or not too long thereafter , hence the temporary occupancy permit issued by the town for the temporary facilities . "Only last week in a conversation with Mr. Brako by long distance , I was given to understand that no firm decision has been made pending some action on the part of the Attorney-General with respect to the new Court House to be constructed alongside the new cor rectional institute .

The two facilities are to be joined by a common corr idor tunnel. It was my suggestion to Mr. Brako that plans proceed without further delay on the correctional institute , as this project , I felt, had a higher priority due to the temporary and far from satisfactory conditions encountered in trying to operate a facility of this nature with trailers . "I would be surprised if either the Honourable Frank Johnston or the Honourable Sidney Spivak , who have inspected the temporary facilities , would argue against my suggestion .

"This week The Pas Chamber of Commerce received the enclosed communication from the Honourable Bud Sherman , Minister of Corrections . I find it hard to reconcile Mr. Sherman's letter with my phone conversation with Mr. Brako , who said he was call ing me on your behalf , especially when Mr. Sherman 's letter is dated one day previous to your Deputy Minister 's phone call. However, I had spoken to the Honourable Mr. Johnston on the subjec t while he was in The Pas on March 14th and he could not confirm a report attributed to the Membe r for Swan River that the institute had indeed been postponed .

The writer had been called by a member of the Foundation Company at Swan River advising me of Mr. Gourlay 's information and enquiring if I, as Mayo r of the Town , had formerly been advised of the postponement. The Town had not , of course , nor has it of this date been formerly advised of the postponement. "I have been instructed by the members of Council to convey their unanimous disapproval of the Correctional Minister's letter to the Chamber , which in effect is bypassing the municipal authority. We do not believe Mr.

Sherman has been properly apprised of the situation as it relates to temporary quarters here in The Pas. It is for that reason I am writing to you requesting a meeting with yourself, the Honourable Mr. Sherman , and the Attorney-General , Honourable G. Mercier, just as soon as possible . "We are prepared to come to Winnipeg if no further reason than to establish for how long the temporary permit will have to be extended . You can appreciate Mr.

Minister that the granting of a temporary permit is a privilege and we would expect the government to act no differently than any other citizen who seeks privileges or temporary suspension of existing bylaws and codes of the municipality ." So maybe, Mr. Chairman , the Minister could explain his response to the Mayor ofthe Town of The Pas. Maybe he wants to explain the bungling that took place and sort of who contacted who, and who said what , but more important and maybe he could tell if he met with The Pas and whether in fact they have come to any understanding with regard to the permi t situation?

The other question I would address to the Minister is the nature of the contract awarded . It is my understanding that much of the contract was with nort hern contractors who expected to employ northern labour , whether he sees any serious problems , especially for local businessmen like the cement supplier in The Pas when the facil ity was not proceeded with , if it caused them any extraordinary problems?

I know that the Minister beli eves that his governme nt's policy of returning estate taxes or not collecting estate taxes , for example , wil l stimulate the economy and maybe this kind of measure isn't necessary .

So maybe since he firmly believes that he could advise how much employment has been created in The Pas as a result of the estate tax elimination , and whether in fact any jobs had been created in that region because of that step by the gov ernment , or whet her he feels that this kind of project would not only meet an urgent and necessary need, but it would also help with the unemployment situation is northern Manitoba? MR. CHAIRMAN : The Minister of Public Works . MR. ENNS: Well , Mr.

Chairman , I have indicated earlier that the line of init iating actio n I will attempt to make very clear to clie nt departme nts , whethe r it involves a matte r of corrections or health or education , that those departments charged with the immediate responsibility of carrying out those 1954

Tuesday, May 9, 1978 programs initiate the action. I do not place that responsibility on the staff and the Department of Public Works to initiate that action . Secondly , let me say, and I know that I invite further comment on this, I find it passingly strange that in this day and age, and to hear from the former social worker, now MLA, former Cabinet Minister from The Pas, talk about the spartan facilities being suggested to house 68 people.

I find it passingly strange that the costs to house on the main , young people who have violated the law and who have subsequently, because of our laws, have to be detained for relatively short periods of time- because it is a correctional institute, it is not a penitentia ry- for 6 months, 3 months, you know, within a limit of 2 years as I understand the system, and I'm not the Corrections Minister, that it costs more to provide housing accommodation or shelter for that person , than it does to build an acute bed in the General Health Sciences Centre . There 's something wrong with that.

I find it passingly strange that in 1978, we are building overnight sleeping quarters into court houses into The Pas. I have canvassed the judges, and every judge assures me that he has no intention of ever overnighting in his court house . There are motel facilities available in The Pas, when in most cases the court holds their hearings and flies out the same day, so I don't know why I'm building into a facility elaborate overnight sleeping quarters for a judge who has told me that he will never sleep in that court house .

And so, when the honourable social dreamer of the previous administration tells me that this is spartan living accommodations , or spartan facilities that we are deferring, I suggest to him that there is every reason why this government says I would sooner take a million dollars of that $5 million and build a personal care home somewhere. I would sooner take a half a million dollars of that $5 million and invest in senior or public housing somewhere.

I would do a lot of other things other than what I believe to be an over-again design and overbuilt facility of which we have so many examples in the north, that they are a stone around our neck like you wouldn 't believe . Like you wouldn't believe , thanks to the kind of wishy-washy, dreaming planning that is taking place by the ' Federal government whether it involves the shopping center at The Pas, whether it involves the complex at Churchill, or now the proposed facilities at The Pas. And, I make no apologies for taking a second look at it.

And, by the way, this is no criticism directed at my staff who respond to the needs that client departments place on them in the design and the , you know, in the drawing up, the working drawings of these kinds of facilities . All I'm saying that in 1978 you don't build sleeping quarters into courthouses any more . And I question the price tag .

I question the fact that it costs more to house a relatively healthy young Canadian for a relatively short period of time and why those costs should cost more per bed than it costs to build a sophisticated , totally modern, updated, acute health care bed in the Health Sciences Centre or in the Seven Oaks facilities that we are now building, but that is the case. And I'm saying that from the Department of Public Works , for those reasons I am prepared to review that kind of what I consider to be inordinate expenditures of money and say, no, we will take a second look at it.

Having said that , I expect the facility to be built this year . ... MR. McBRYDE: I very much thank the Minister for the last part of his statement. It's rather unfortunate that he is not capable of listening when somebody else is speaking because I said I had not seen the plans, nor discussed with members of his department the courtuse facilities; that I had discussed with them the jail facilities, of which they showed me comparisons with other jail facilities and reassured us that those costs were very low indeed for that type of facility that has to contain people and prevent people from breaking out.

And I mentioned specifically that I was not sure of the courthouse facilities and whether there could be reductions in the courthouse facilities, but the Minister preferred to ignore that while then launching into the situation of the social workerfrom The Pas. Mr. Chairman , I was not a social worker at The Pas, nor was I a rancher who leased out land - government land - illegally .. I was neither of those two things . Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister wants to direct his comments ... -(Interjection)-! think the key thing is, Mr.

Chairman , I am very pleased that the Minister has assured that construction will proceed . I wonder if he wants to address himself in a manner just to explain what happened in terms of the letters that went out and the bungling that took place or whether he would just as soon that we just let that matter pass, which is all right with me as long as the facilities are going to proceed . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Emerson. MR. ALBERT DRIEDGER: Mr.

Chairman, as one of the bureaucratic spenders from the south- to use the Honourable Member for The Pas phrase - I wonder if the Minister could indicate to the members of the committee here today the amount of people who go through this institution or jail and the cost of the proposed correction centre. Thank you . MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, if I had that information I would be more than happy to try and supply it to committee, but that would be the responsibility of the Minister of Corrections, who is responsible in terms of staffing the facility and would have the estimated costs in terms of population and the kind of questions that the member asks. I can only indicate to the honourable member from the 3 of Public Works the physical construction costs, which are of the order of $5.9 million. 1955

Tuesday, May 9, 1978 MR. DRIEDGER: $5.9 million? MR. ENNS: $5,985,519.00 to house 68 persons. MR. DRIEDGER: Mr. Chairman , I wonder if the Minister can indicate how many institutions of that nature we have in the province. ..... MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Emerson again please. MR. DRIEDGER: Mr. Chairman, I wonde r if the Minister could indicate how many institutions of that nature and that kind of cost do we have in the province . MR. ENNS: Well, every facility is another facility. We have facilities now at Dauphin. We have facilities at Brandon . Of cou rse the major facility being Headingley .

These come under the title of -. correctional institutions . We no longer call them jails , but that's what they are. MR. CHAIRMAN: Just a minute, we have a list. The Member for Wellington is next. Elmwood, The Pas and Swan River, in that order . MR. BRIAN CORRIN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I must say I am intrigued that we are going off on what I think may prove to be a tangent. But given that you, Mr. Chairman, have allowed the Honourable Minister to stray afield, I feel compelled . . . We can't have a law for the rich and a law for the poor, Mr. Chairman . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please, order please.

I was very fair with the Member for The Pas and let him compare estate taxes and reduction in taxation when he was speaking on the correctional institute . I think I was more than fair with the Member for The Pas. So therefore if the Minister , in replying , wanted to get a little off track, I think it's only fair to permit him to get a little off track. The Member for Wellington , if you wish to carry on. MR. CORRIN: Thank you for that elaboration, Mr. Chairman . It was uncalle d for but it was offered gratuitously and I take it for what it is worth.

Could the Honourable Minister please tell us someth ing more about the northern correctional institute? He has advised the Membe r for Emerson, I believe, that it was $5.9 milli on in terms of its capital cost. What does that break down to on a square foot basis and how might that, Mr. Chairman , through you , compare to the capital costs appropriations on a square footage basis for other buildings , particularly personal nursing care homes- since that has been raised- in other parts of the province or in northern regions? Well, there is a difference in economy, somebody says, in the south .

I prefer we talk about apples and apples and deal with northern situations . MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I am not prepa red to answer the details of the question.! can answer as it relates to other facilities , but in this particular instance we are looking at about $100 per square foot and I am told that that compares to about $70 to $80 per square foot for a facility like Seven Oaks . were inflated as a result of locale . MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , I'm told . I don't wish to evade the question.

I can 't answer these questions that definitively , those are questions more appropriately asked to the Minister responsible for Corrections . But , by way of comparison and this is a concern to this government, the fact of the matter is that per person served we are asking for, or that is the plans of the previous administration was to spend $58,000 per person , per inmate as compared to $33,000 that we spend per acute hospital care bed at the new facility of Seven Oaks, or the General Health Sciences Centre, and I'm saying that that concerns me.

That tells me that in building, perhaps what has to be considered the most sophiscated, costliest , facility , to look after people in need people who are sick , people who need all kinds of additional services built into that bed facility - supp ly of oxygen, supply of respiratory equipment, additio nal electrical machinery to put on the various life saving machines that modern medicine now has.

It is costing us $33,000 to provide that bed for an acute ill heart attack patient in a hospital , and the plans of the previous administration were to spend $58,000 to house 17 year olds who happen to be violating the law on a weekend , had a few drinks too many, and is being put in the hoosegow for 2 months . And , I'm saying that something is out of wack, I'm saying something 's out of wack . And , I do not apologize to this committee for taking a second look at it. MR.

CORRIN: Would the Minister then not be willing to concede that given the fact that there probably is something in the order of a 20 percent to 30 percent differential in building costs, construction costs, as between southern and northern Manitoba - and, I think that his staff can support that statement if he wants to take recourse to their advice- given the fact that the intensive care unit he's talking about is essentially , in a capital sense, not much more expensive, given that differential. It probably will be much more expensive ... 1956

Tuesday, May 9, 1978 MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, if I may interject before the member gets carried away. He is more learned than I am, but you know , 25 percent or even 30 percent of $33,000 is in the neighbourhood of $6,000.00. That brings that hospital bed up to $40,000, as compared to $58,000 that we're building . I still say it's still an inordinate differential. MR.

CORRIN : Could the Minister , given the fact that he's stated, although he has indicated by way of demure that he's not responsible for the Correctional Department, but he has indicated that this particular expense, the expense associated with provision of this correctional institute, seems to him to be inordinate .

Inordinately high and presumably an inordinate demand on the public purse, and given that I agree with him that first of all these types of expenses probably are in certain circumstances unwarranted , because some of the offenders are, in effect, being given hotel space and I'm not sure that that's a desirable end in itself in the corrections field; and given the fact that there are other alternatives that are available in the counity where these people could be more productive; and , given the fact that these people perhaps in play ing that sort of more productive role, could make proper recompense to the community that they have slighted , that they have previously offended .

I'm wondering whether the Honourable Minister would be willing to indicate whether he would be willing to advocate to the Cab inet alternat ive positions vis-a-vis corrections in northern Manitoba . MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , that question again is more appropriately asked to the Minister Responsible fo r Corrections or indeed the Attorney-General who administers justice and the manner and way in which just ice is meted out in this land . I plead with the committee that I cannot , as Minister of Public Works , respond to those quest ions without. . .

It's fair game , I suppose for the members to ask me whatever they wish , but I've been in the game long enough to know that all these matters are put on record , and they will be read back to me or to some other Minister , and I'm not prepared to suggest what I may think the Attorney -General, my colleague ought to be doing in this area, or what I think the Minister of Corrections ought to be doing in th is area.

They have this responsibility and they will respond to the questions that the member raises, and I would invite the honourable member to direct those kinds of questions to the Estimates of the Attorney-General, or the Minister responsible directly for Corrections . MR. CORRIN: Mr. Chairman , with due respect to the Honourable Minister, I would argue that it is quite relevant that we ask him those sorts of quest ions because one of the primary considerations and concerns when determining what sort of correctional facilities would best serve our community is cost.

You can never divorce the eff iciency of a particular reform system from its costs . It's like any other service the government offers , it can't be offered in isolation anymore than we could if we wished , I suppose , build all sorts of very sophiscated elaborate health facilities that might, in fact, be of utility to some members of our population . But , because we deemed the construction of those types of facilities to be not cost-effective and cost-efficient , we choose as a matter of public policy not to. And , the same can be applied to bridges, highways , roads and so on and so forth .

So, I suggest that for the Honourable Minister to stand before us this evening , sit before us this evening and say that these matters are properly within the bailiwick and jurisdiction only of the Attorney -General and the Honourable Minister responsible for Corrections , is intellectually dishonest. Because , he knows darn well that when it comes down to the short strokes we darn well have to look at the costs . That's a practical reality . And , he has told me that.

He has told all members of the Assembly that for some many many weeks now , we have laboured under the burden of that particular position, that everything must be reviewed in light of its financial fiscal impact. I would suggest that the same applies to Public Works and Corrections, and we can't simply say that the <! Minister responsible for Corrections can have what he wants . Surely this Minister would not suggest to this committee that he is willing to give into any sort of fantastical proposition raised by the Honourable Attorney-General or the Minister of Corrections .

Obviously those propositions, any proposals made, are going to be made in the light of costs. So, I ask the Minister whether he can't please tell us what the alternatives are. I believe there are alternatives, and I would suggest for a person who 's been involved in Public Works for as long as this particular member has, he is fully aware of what the alternatives might be. And , I would ask him whether the dollars spent by Manitobans in the corrections field might not better be allocated to other programs . And , if he wants some suggestions I'll make a suggestion .

I suggest that it's high time we had a work program in this province . And , I'm not talking about a chain gang, I'm talking about a work program. A program that might help the Honourable Minister with respect to maintenance of highways and parks, and it might also give young offenders such as the one the Minister has indicated are presently wasting in custody in very expensive over-built facilities, the opportunity to become productive and learn what it is to earn an honest days dollar . And, that in itself might be of lasting benefit to many young people in this province .

I don't care what the former policies were. I'm not divorced from the party, but I wasn't a member and I was not a Minister, and I certainly wasn't party to any decisions that were taken, and, I'm willing to discuss this matter in a rational forthright fashion with this committee, and I would ask the Honourable Minister is he willing to view alternatives?

Is he willing to present something innovative to his Cabinet to the Minister responsible for the department of the Attorney General, the Minister responsible for Corrections , in order that we can ameliorate the present cost-ineffective situation that exists in this province with respect to Corrections ? 1957

Tuesday, May 9, 1978 MR. ENNS: Well , Mr. Chairman, let me simply say that in many ways I concur with much of what the honourable member has said. I particularly concur , although it is at some divergence from what the former speaker in this committee just talked about , the spartan facilities and the need to proceed immediately with it. Now the Member for Wellington, a party colleague of the former Member for The Pas, talks about is it necessary to proceed with the overbuilt, expensive, deluxe-type accom modations?

Now , quite frankly, the Honourable Member for Wellington is coming very close to sharing with me the concerns that I have about proceeding with the plans of the previous administration . I also do not dismiss out of hand his really more serious suggestions about rethinking and relooking at the manner and way in which we house and the way we treat offenders , persons , citizens who are temporarily at odds with the law.

I will only say this to you , that when the Premier of this province decides to relieve me of the onerous duties of being Minister of Highways, Public Works , and Minister responsible for Autopac , and makes me the Minister of Corrections , then I will be in a position to respond more directly to taking up some of the challenges , some of the advice , and good advice , that the Honourable Member for Wellington has just given me. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Elmwood and then The Pas. MR. DO ERN: Mr. Chairman , just a couple of points here. I think the Minister has drawn up a phoney comparison .

He is trying to make the case that there is more money being spent per inmate bed than per hospital bed, etc ., etc . Well , you know , first of all , I think there are reasons for that and I recall a chart which I am sure that his staff behind him could pull out or could produce in a day or so showing the cost of new correctional facilities across Canada . If my memory serves me correctly, they were in the range of $60.00 to $80.00 to $90.00to $100.00 a square foot. These were costs of new correctional facilities in other parts of the country . There are reasons for this .

You cannot say that you can build a correctional unit that, let's say, is to hold a prisoner , for the same amount of money that you would use for a person who is ill because , for example, in the case of Brandon , and I assume that the same applies at The Pas, you have prisoners separated into different categories . There is a male and female separation; there are age separations , etc . MR. ENNS: Well , we're going to have to change that ; it's against the Human Rights Act. MR. DO ERN: There are people , for instance, who can go out during the day.

So I know in the case of Brandon , there are about five categories of prisoners. -(Interjection) - Mr. Chairman , there is some noise coming down that is interrupting me. MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there? MR.

DOERN: There are about five separations at Brandon and I assume thre e, four or five at The Pas and you cannot compare the kind of fac ility -I mean, I don 't know what you require in a hospital , ~ whether the walls are six inches thick - but in a correc tional institution where they are a foot thick and where the materials are different , clearly you don 't have plasterboard in a prison if you are trying to contain somebody. So you r costs are sig nific antly more .

Similarly , if you are renovating in this building where the walls are several feet thick , it will cost you a great deal more to renovate than in an ordinary building . And also there are northern costs ; there are costs of construction in relation to building north of 53. So when you compare our costs to other correc tional facilities in the country, to the fact that it is being built in the north , to the fact that it is not a school or a hos pital but a holding correctional -.. facility , it is obvious that it will cost more than other kinds of institutions .

I have to say to the Minister that because he says so, doesn 't make it so. I mean, he uses words very loosely and he uses these words with a repetitive effect. He keeps talk ing about overde sig n and overbuilt , luxur ious, and he is trying to create an impression . MR. ENNS: That was the Member for Wellington who talked about overbuilt, hotel-like facilities ; that was the Member for Wellington who put that on the record . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Membe r for Wellingto n, on a point of order. MR. CORRIN: On a point of order.

Just simply to clarify the reco rd, I wish to ind icate that at no time did I say that I acknowledge that these particular facilities were overbuilt, but I said that given the fact that this Minister was of that opinion , given that he felt that they were overbuilt and too costly , that I felt that other things led from that. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Elmwood, please carry on. MR. DOERN : So alii am saying , Mr. Chair man , is that the Minister is loosely using these words and I would ask him to examine the various projects that we have undertaken since our administration has been in.

I would cite to him a coup le of very current exampl es, the Woodsworth Building as being one of the best. The square-foot cost of the Woodsworth Building- and I would recommend to him that he examine that build ing very carefu lly - on a cost basis, it is inexpensively built. The same 1958

Tuesday, May 9, 1978 applies to the Environmental Lab which he tells us he is going -(Interjection)- I said Woodsworth Building . Well , I don't know, it was about $30-odd a square foot , around $30.00 a square foot. The Environmental Lab is another example where the consultants came to us, provided us with a certain general plan, and they were cut to the bone . There is no fat in that particular building. Two more points I would like to make and then I would turn the floor over to my colleague again because I have more points and he wants to add a point or two .

The Attorney-General is here and he must have known a lawyer whom I knew from the time he was a little boy and my colleague from Wellington may have known D'Arcy Bancroft ... MR. CHAIRMAN: Would the Member for Elmwood continue to address his remarks through the Chair, please. MR. DOERN: Yes. Well, some of the colleagues around the table are familiar with one D'Arcy Bancroft, who in fact, I believe, was prominent in the Conservative Party . MR. ENNS: A fine fellow , a fine upstanding citizen . MR. DO ERN: . . . who passed away several years ago .

He was a pretty well-known lawyer and also a bit of a humourist and I think one of the funniest art icles I ever read in my entire life was published in The Bar Journal five or ten years ago .

It was, "D'Arcy Bancroft on The Pas Jail ," and about how preposterous the situation was with the prisoners up above and the court down below and the stamping of feet by the prisoners to interrupt Court proceedings and the fire trap and the blocking of to ilets , which they did deliberately , flu shing them and raining down upon the Court proceedings , ,1 etc ., etc ., all the things that they did to disru pt Court proceedi ngs, the fact that it was a fire trap and so on . This was all conta ined in one funny

article , funny meaning absurd . I would also po int out to the Min ister that ten years ago , the Attorney-General of Manitoba was the Honourable Sterling Lyon and he was saying back in Februa ry, 1968 and so on, that in due course -I quote from a letter he wrote to Mr. Moule , the Secretary- Treasurer of The Pas- he said : " In due course , more adequate Court facil ities will be provided ." And then other correspondence going from Mr.

Moule to the Honourable Stewart Mclean who was the Attorney-General back in 1965, saying : "We are giving some serious thought toward provid ing Court facilities at The Pas . . . and we refer to a meeting with Sterling Lyon , etc ." All I am saying , Mr. Chairman is, how long do we have to wait for this building to proceed? It has been talked about for- my colleague could clarify- at least 13 years that I could document and maybe 15 or 20. -(Interjection)- Well , what happened in the last eight years? In the last eight years a decision was made to proceed .

The architec ts were commissioned to design and the project was officially kicked off . Okay? Shortly after that an election took place and your government is now freezing the project. So I simply make those points , Mr. Chairman , and let my colleague continue . .,. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for The Pas. MR. McBRYDE: Well , Mr. Chairman , the discussion has been very interesting . I have some concerns now. First of all , the previous situation that Mr.

Bancroft was able to write up very humourously , was if you want to see the other side you read the Fire Comm issioner 's report, which was not very humourous at all . MR. CHAIRMAN: Can I interrupt the Member for The Pas? Would some of the other members around the Committee table please keep their comments a little quieter so that the Minister can hear the Honourable Member for The Pas and his comments . The Member for The Pas would you continue please. MR. McBRYDE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman . Mr.

Cha irman , the Fire Commissioner 's report at the time was far from humourous and it pointed out a very serious and very critical situation in which the government of the day took action . But I am a little bit afraid now , Mr. Chairman , that egged on by the Member for Emerson the Minister is going to get himself into a trap if he is not careful , a similar kind of a trap that his party got themselves into when they talked about fat here and fat there and then couldn't find the fat and had to cut programs .

Because the Minister should be fairly cautious in his comments in terms of the jai l facility, because I don 't know of anyone who has tried to break out of an acute care facility , but I am sure that there are many people who have tried to break out of a jail or a correct ional facility , and I think that that is probably one of reasons why the costs are a little bit more , because people would like to break out of them .

I wouldn 't want the Minister to leave himself in a position that he would have to come back to Member for Emerson and say, "Look , knock off on this cost because that is the lowest cost we can bring it in at, so knock off on the cost , don 't bug me about that cost any more . Dont't get me trapped into that situation where I would have to pretend that it can be cheaper ." The Minister when he refers to a facility that can -(Interjection)- Yes, he has already got the Member for Emerson all confused and maybe he better straighten him out.

When he is talking about 5.6 or 5.8 he is talking about a court house as well as a jail facility and the Member for Emerson maybe you should let him know how much the jail facility is, separate from the court house facility, separate from the corridor connecting the two , because he is going to get awful confused, even more 1959

Tuesday, May 9, 1978 confused, if the Minister isn't careful in his answers to him. My colleague, the Member for Wellington, brought up the matter of the program itself , and I think one of the reasons why the jail facility didn't get off the ground as quickly as I wanted and as quickly as the Town of The Pas wanted- and that discussion goes back to 1957 when the government of the day opening the provincial building at The Pas did say the next project was going to be a court house at The Pas so that was 1957, and that was carried on through Liberal and Conservative administrations- but , Mr.

Chairman , the Member for Wellington mentioned the program and there was some considerable time making sure that the facility fit within the program.! have to sort of smile when the Member for Wellington brings up the big discussion they have had recently in Ontario about corrections in terms of putting people to work , etc . Mr. Chairman, that has been going on for a long time . It went on under the previous Conserverative Government , it went on under the NDP Government. The bush camps- the Egg Lake Camp and the camp in the Whiteshell Provincial Park -are exactly for that purpose and it is a good thing.

I think the inmates should be put to work and they have been put to work , and it is nothing new, it is nothing dramatic , it has been going on now since the previous Conservative administration, one of the progressive steps that they brought forward in government, and one that we expanded and continued, to ensure that inmates had the opportunity to go to work . So, Mr. Chairman, there are other costs associated with not having the facility at The Pas. There are extra staff that are required with this very poor trailer facility .

There are extra costs of sending certain inmates off to Headingley , which is quite expensive, without the facility proceeding. So I would hope that the Minister will not get himself entrapped in response to some of the questions and will proceed this year with a very spartan and the lowest cost possible correctional facility at The Pas and I thank him very much for his announcement and I am sure that the people who have to work in the temporary facility will be very pleased and I know the Town of The Pas will be very pleased that he is able to go ahead . Mr.

Chairman , I want to make one further comment, and I am sorry I haven't been at these discussions because I found the educational ones very fascinating and I want to get back there and make a contribution before we get off the Grants Commission. MR. ENNS : Cousin Keith will be forever grateful. MR. McBRYDE: If the Minister might comment and I will read it in the Hansard in a couple of days time.

If he might comment , if he hasn't already , and he could tell me if he has already, on the- there is a bit of a problem in Public Works, because Public Works , as the Minister defines, is a service department and they have clients and the clients are other departments.

Another department needs a facility and it is agreed that they should have a facility and then the civil servants in the department say, "Okay, you people that are going to be using the facility , what do you need in a facility?" And , of course, they come back with what they would like in a facility , which is usually a little bit more expensive and a little bit more elaborate than what they need , it is what they would like. What they would like to see if they could have exactly the kind of facility they need , and so the Minister of Public Works has a real problem .

Maybe he might consider that he should get the departments to build their own bloody buildings and then he wouldn 't have to argue with them all the time that they want too much and that they are too elaborate and too fancy and too luxurious, and not spartan enough. Maybe the Minister of Public Works would like to look at that option as a way to have other departments live within their budget because now we are back to including capital in current, all together , anyway , and that would force the other departments to be really tough with their civil servants, to be really tough in their programming .

I wonder if the Minister has addressed himself to that problem of the nature of the structure of Public Works being the service agency for all these other departments, clients, whether he has addressed himself to that and what his thinking is on that matter , and as I said I will read about it because I am not go ing to be able to stay much longer. Thank you, Mr. Chairman . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Swan River. MR. DOUG GOURLAY: Thank you , Mr. Chairman . Just for the record's sake, I would like to mention that relative to what the letter that the Member for The Pas had read out, I have not been the _ ..

Mayor of Swan River since November 1st, 1977. I have never talked to the Mayor of The Pas about the .:: correctional institute, and I find it very interesting that the Member for Wellington and the Member for Elmwood mention the high cost of building the facility at The Pas. I was wondering if the Minister might look at the possibility of relocating this facility in the Swan Valley area, where I think it would be more strategically located and the building costs would be considerably lower than they are at The Pas. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Rock Lake. MR. HENRY EINARSON: Mr.

Chairman , it has been interesting to listen to the comments from honourable members of the Opposition, also to listen to the comments of some considerable diversity and particularly, Mr. Chairman , I would like to pose a question to the Minister. When the 1960

Tuesday, May 9, 1978 Member for Elmwood was p8inting out the excellent examples of the full utilization of our public buildings , I may say etc., etc. , could you Mr. Minister please tell me, this Committee, and the MLA in particular from Elmwood, exactly how high the Woodsworth Building is and further does it conform to the height standards of this particular part of the city? MR. CHAIRMAN: Does the Minister of Public Works wish to answer that? MR. ENNS: Well , Mr. Chairman , I am advised by my staff that it is much too high, without actually having the measurements . ..

But certainly from an asthetic point of view and from blending into the surrounding courthouse facilities , and indeed the Legislative Building itself , I would have to say it's much too high . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Rock Lake . MR. EINARSON: Mr.

Chairman , having rece ived that answer from the Minister just gives me one indication , and we can debate here by the hour and listen to comments from honourable members opposite , particularly from the gentleman who was the Minister for some seven or eight years, and to think that that Minister would perform his duties in such a way that he was not aware of the regulations insofar as pertained to that part of the city , I would say it's amazing to me that he is still the Member for Elmwood . Thank you , Mr. Chairman . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Elmwood is the next speaker . MR.

DOERN: I won 't devote more than a minute to the Member for Rock Lake, my beloved colleague of 12 years , other than to say this: That when a height standard was developed for the area, which I recommended to the city and to the province and which support was given for , the height of that building was taken to be the existing Woodsworth Building . And somebody in the City of Winnipeg didn't know that the building was 15 storeys high . They had an earlier set of plans in which the building was 13 storeys high .

They gave the wrong information to their own people, who then decided that the height of the building was 13 storeys . They could not see by standing outside that c. the building was 15 storeys high. They didn 't realize that it had gone up a couple more storeys . All they would have had to do was look . As I gave the member the story one day about the Aristotelians .. . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please . The Member for Elmwood has the floor. Please give him that courtesy . MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman , I am trying to explain to these rowdy members of the government the situation . -(lnterjection)- MR.

CHAIRMAN: Please carry on. The Member for Elmwood . MR. DOERN: It isn't easy, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: It is obvious that this is a popular committee tonight. Please carry on, the Member for Elmwood . MR. DOERN: So it's obvious that if the standard of height- the standard of height in the area is the Woodsworth Building , that the Woodsworth Building cannot be in violation of itself .

So some clerk provided the wrong information to the city and came up with the brilliant deduction that the Wordsworth Building , which was to be the level at which the other buildings were to be contained to, was in violation of itself . Well, that makes no sense. I went to my colleagues in the dying days of the Session and I said, "Look, I want to bring in a Bill. We trusted the City . They are fooling around. They don 't know what they are doing.

I want to bring in a provincial Bill." And they said to me, "You can bring in a Bill at this late date provided you can get the unanimous support of the Liberal Party and the Conservative Party ." So I thought, well, that's going to be a tough assignment. I have to go to the Conservatives, who have a new leader named Sterling Lyon and a House Leader named Don Craik, and I had to ask them whether they would support this legislation- and about three days to go of the Session. I also went to the Liberal Party and I explained the situation, and they all agreed. They all agreed- Mr. Craik, Mr. Lyon, and Mr.

Johnston , I believe , or Patrick from the Liberals- they all agreed that this was the only way to go. We introduced the Bill. There was, in effect , no debate and the measure passed . Because it was a preposterous situation . So I would say to the Honourable Member for Rock Lake if he isn't familiar with it, he should ask the Minister of Finance , whom he trusts, and the Minister of Finance will explain the situation. Okay, let's get back to The Pas jail here . I want to make a few points here, and I want to refer to an

article in the Tribune of March 29th , headed "Government reviews plans for jail in The Pas". And I want to question the Minister on a couple of points here. It says in the middle of the

article that his department and the Foundation Company of Canada, which won the contract from the former government , are discussing going ahead with just the jail, 1961

Tuesday, May 9, 1978 costing about $3 million . And then it says that if work begins before the end of June, Mr. Enns suggested the contractor would enforce no penalties on the government for delaying the project, but no deadlines have been set. And then there is a quote, "He hopes we will proceed and is reluctant to press us." That's Mr. Enns speaking about the contractor. So I say to the Minister, does he have a written commitment from the Foundation Company of :!:>- Canada?

Because my information is that he has never contacted the Foundation Company of Canada, that there has never been any clear statement coming from his department to the Foundation Company of Canada, and that he has no commitment whatsoever from the company that they will not press him for a penalty . And that they could, in effect, hit the government for damages of a sort, because of the fact that they have invested money . They have probably rounded up their troops and planned their work schedule, and spent money on the estimates, etc . So I ask the Minister, does he have something in writing?

Does he have an exchange of letters? Does he have a document to indicate that he had discussions with the Foundation Company and that :s they gave their solemn commitment that they would not press penalties? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I have no commitment from Foundation of Canada. MR. DO ERN: Well then I ask the Minister whether he is now going to undertake discussions with the contractor, who I believe was awarded the contract, initiate discussions to inform them that he is proceeding with the construction, or is he going to re-tender? I guess another question is: How does he know they will hold their prices?

Or is he throwing it wide open again? If he throws it wide open , he has to possibly pay a penalty. If he doesn't throw it wide open he may have to negotiate a higher price. What is he going to do? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , a great deal of what I do hinges again -as I repeat now for the eighth time - on the requirements that are pressed on the Department of Public Works by the client department - in this case the dual portfolios of the Attorney-General's Office, with respect to the need of the courthouse facilities , and the Minister of Corrections , with respect to the need of the facility itself .

There has been no direct negotiations at this point with the contractor , who had been awarded by letter the awarding of the contract by the previous administration . The speculation of the Honourable Member for Elmwood is basically correct. It depends to what extent modifications are imposed on the situation, on the facility , as to whether or not some of the options that the honourable member suggests are going to be exercised, whether we indeed re-tender or whether indeed we modify and stay with the existing contractor.

I would suspect a great deal of the contractor 's attitude in question on this matter would hinge on that position of government as well, in terms of whether or not he will press for possible penalty clauses , which he may well be entitled to , or otherwise . I think the contractor in question is obviously desirous of, at some stage, doing the work and getting the contract, and has at least not pressed government- not pressed the Department of Public Works - in any official way that would lead us to believe anything to the contrary .

I believe that the contractor is aware and is concerned about the fact that in the interim a new government has come into place . And a new government, as one would expect, sorts out its priorities , and this particular project happens to be among them . MR. DOERN: I think we can leave this topic and go to other buildings then . MR. CHAIRMAN: Oh, is the Member for Elmwood finished , or .. . ? MR. DOERN: I'm willing to let The Pas jail go but there are another four or five buildings. MR. CHAIRMAN: All right.

The Member for Lac du Bonnet indicated earlier he would like to participate in the debate and I overlooked him . I apologize . The Member for Lac du Bonnet, and then the Attorney-General is next. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, the Minister indic ated to the committee that the facility that was being proposed and I gather a contract let on in The Pas is inordinately expensive per square foot.

I wonder if he, to back that up, could indicate to us how that particular project compares with any other project , either in Manitoba or elsewhere, or any other building , in terms of cost per square foot, and whether there are things added to this facility that are not the norm of such a facility anywhere else in Canada. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, firstly I don 't single out Manitoba and people involved in the correctional field as being unique to what is in fact taking place not just across this country but possibly, you know, throughout North America .

I am just suggesting, though , that whatever is taking place and what has taken place in the last, you might say, several decades of correctional work- and here I am way out of my element- there has been a concern expressed by the general public and I can find no more dramatic way of underlining that fact than from the Honourable Member for Emerson's inf ormation . The figures that I quoted, the comparison figures of $58,000 for an acute hospital care bed as compared to $33,000 for an inmate bed in a correctional facility of this size, are the correct 1962

Tuesday, May 9, 1978 figures. They do not include the courthouse additions or something like that. We are comparing apples and apples . I'm saying that there seems to be . .. -(Interjection)- Well, okay, and then we add 25 percent , and I made that clear and the record is clear. We add 25 percent on top of that, so that brings the cost up to $40,000 for an inmate bed compared to $58,000 for a facility like Seven Oaks or the Health Sciences Centre . MR. DOERN: How much is a tent per square foot? MR.

ENNS: If you wanted to say that , then if you wanted to build I would suggest if you were building that same acute health care cost under northern rates, such as the facility that we have committed ourselves to building at Snow Lake, then you would have to add those northern costs to that, too. So, you know , the same comparison exists. I think the Honourable Member for Wellington in a moment of candor was prepared to exhibit some understanding of the basic and fundamental question I am raising here . There seems to be something wrong.

I say to myself, what happens to the idea of in fact perhaps a work rehabilitative program in our correctional institute? What's wrong with the idea of relatively - what I would call -spartan outdoor camp facilities? What's wrong with something less than a full deluxe hotel-like facil ities that we are building, whether it's in this province or in other provinces? I am merely saying that the total cost of this facility was sufficient for us to say that we wish to take a second look at it. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman , you know this is rather an interesting evening.

The Minister, in his statement earlier, implied that there was something terribly wrong with the costs of this facility on a per square foot basis . But he didn 't choose to compare the cost of a correctional facility with another correctional facility anywhere else in Manitoba or Canada , but chose to compare the cost of building a correctional facility with a hospital. And I don 't know what one has to do with the other. I want to know on what basis the Minister can sit here tonight and tell us that a correctional facility is too costly and somehow out of reach , and beyond the norm .

And if he has figures to tell us that a similar facility was built in Quebec, or in Alberta, or in British Columbia, or in Saskatchewan, at much less per square foot, please let him tell us, then I know that he is comparing facilities of an equal kind. But to suggest that there 's something wrong because he's comparing hospital costs with correctional facility costs , I don't know the connection , Mr. Chairman . The facility may be costly , maybe it can be trimmed. I don't know , I'm not making that argument, that it can't.

But I want to know on what basis, by what comparison -and the Minister has the facility of the Department of Public Works, they can advise this committee through the Minister - just whether those costs are reasonable, given the type of structure that is required for correction purposes or whether we are over-building beyond the norm , beyond what other correctional facilities have provided in other provinces, or indeed in this province . Is there some example that we can compare it with to show that this is somehow too expensive for Manitoba? I would like an answer to this question . MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, I'm prompted to remind , particularly those new members of the committee- members like the Honourable Member for Rock Lake and Virden, and well others would recall - I can recall listening in 1969 to the Throne Speech when a brave youn!il group of newly elected members of the Legislature who formed the government at that time, put mto their Throne Speech of that day the fact that they saw as their mission during their period of government to break away from old traditions and not to hold to what happens to be the norm of past government performances here or elsewhere .

And, I'm telling the members of the committee, that you name me another government that is not showing that same spirit in breaking away with the traditions, and not simply accepting the answers . Well, they do it Ontario , or they do it in British Columbia, or they do it somewhere else which is the Minister ... We are breaking away with some of the traditions, the accepted norms and concepts that government growth is inevitable. It has to grow and grow and grow like topsy-turvy.

We have demonstrated and are demonstrating the courage and the guts to reverse that trend with some costs, with some costs in political terms to us right now . It's in that vein that I choose to answer the honourable members . It's not a question of comparing what the state of New York is paying for correctional institutions , or what Ontario or Toronto is.

I am saying that here, in terms of the million people that we have in this province of Manitoba, in terms of much the same tax base that we had in this Province of Manitoba 10 years ago, to pay $58,000 for an inmate bed that is housing somebody that has transgressed society, as compared to $33,000 for a person that requires the most sophisticated, modern medical attention that he can, with all kinds of additional facilities built into that room- the Member for Lac du Bonnet wasn't here when I repeated this once before- with facilities to pipe in oxygen , with facilities to hook up the lifesaving machinery that modern medicine provides today, and I might also tell him and for other members who indicated that you don't have to build to break out of a jail , I will tell them that probably more inmates have broken out of hospitals, that have been brought into hospital, more inmates from Stony Mountain , for instance , have rroken out of hospitals , that have been brought into a hospital bed for treatment.

So, the facility for some concern in that area also exists. Well, Mr. Chairman, it's an endless debate. I've indicated to the honourable members, and I'm rather pleased that I've managed to solicit from the member from the opposite side some empathy for my concern . Some concern that I've expressed in the sense that (

a) in an area that I'm not responsible for with respect to the kind of rehabilitation program that ought to be directed to offenders, but also some recognition that perhaps a second look at the facility that we're planning is in order. 1963

Tuesday, May 9, 1978 Now, Mr. Chairman, again I make it very clear that the facility and again I was helped by, I believe it was the Honourable Member for The Pas again, or some other member that suggested that the Department of Public Works is placed in a difficult position. It is not the prime responsiblity of the Department of Public Works and its planners and project planners and designers and architects, that can be held responsible for the type of facilities that we are often asked to construct.

We are subject to the demands of the client departments that as the member suggested, they want the best, they want the ultimate and we are placed under those strictures and try to accommodate to the extent possible . You know, this is part of the system and the way the system works. But, Mr. Chairman, I will desist from any further remarks, and really I can't add, you know, for the members benefit, they can carry on the debate' but I really can't add anything more enlightening to the debate. MR. USKIW: Well, Mr.

Chairman, the Member for Lakeside's last comments are that he can't enlighten the committee any further than he has. The fact is, that he tried to enlighten everyone, including the media here tonight to the fact that there is some over-building taking place, and some inordinate costs taking place with respect to The Pas facility . But when he's pinned down to show us an example of how and why and what the comparisons are, he doesn't produce one shred , one shred of evidence, Mr. Chairman, that somehow there is something unusual about that particular project.

I would like to know if there is something unusual about it, Mr. Chairman . The member prefers to sidetrack the discussion to the question of whether we should be look ing at different correctional procedures , rather than to building correctional buildings as such . And , I don't think that's an innovation of our time here today , Mr. Chairman, that's been with us for a couple of decades . It's nothing new. It's been ongoing and accelerating. But not withstanding that, in the wisdom of some people in the correctional field, they felt it was necessary to build a jail at The Pas. Now that may be right or wrong .

I have no way of knowing that, but we have to assume that it was the correct decision based on whatever information it was made. Having done that, then we proceed to the question of the cost of construction. What is the facility going to cost the people of Manitoba? The Minister comes here and tells us that in his opinion it's too costly, that there's something dramatically wrong with the project. It's being over-built. I want to know if it's being over-built compared to what?

I don 't want it compared with the General Hospital, I want to compare it with some other facility that performs the same kind of function, that is either built, in the process of being built, planned to be built. Tell us where where we are erring here if we are erring, Mr. Chairman . I would like to know what the basis of that statement is. We have the department here. I'm sure the department can tell us whether the per foot costs are excessive in this case or not in their mind, relative to the cost of construction of that kind of facility in that part of Canada.

If the department can advise us that, yes, there is a cheaper way of doing it without altering the policy relative to corrections , then I'd like to know that, Mr. Chairman . It's not as if the Minister doesn't have the capacity . He has the whole battery of expertise behind him , and I want to know. I want to know exactly what the cost per square foot are, and where they are found to be cheaper for that kind of facility . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Attorney-General is the next person on the list, and then the Member for St. James. HON. GERALD W.J. MERCIER(Osborne): Just very briefly , Mr.

Chairman, I have to comment because of the comments of the Member for Elmwood who stated that the actions of the city in dealing with the height by-law were preposterous . I don 't want to provoke him or make any statements that might involve the committee taking any more time on this, but I would only say that the by-law that was presented to the city was not proceeded with because it was discriminatory .

It was discriminatory in that lower heights were allowed at distances similar to the Woodsworth Building , and the Woodsworth Building was, in effect , exempted from that height by-law and for that reason the City of Winnipeg did not proceed with it, because it was discriminatory and inequitable . I don't want to provoke any more argument , because we're not going to resolve anything here, but in fairness to the city and those people who made decisions at the city , I wanted to make their side known . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. James. MR. MINAKER: Mr. Chairman , it's on the same subject.

The Honourable Member for Elmwood chose to blame a clerk in the City of Winnipeg , and I don 't know whether I was the Chairman of Works and Operations at that time , or my colleague , the Attorney-General was the Chairman of Works and Operations, but if he chose to bring the name of a clerk into the committee where he cannot debate and defend himself , then I suggest to you that either blame myself or the AttorneyGeneral . MR. ENNS: Lay off the clerks . MR.

MINAKER: .. . for what he claims was an error on the part of the city , but don't bring the clerk into it who cannot come forward and debate and protect himself . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Lac du Bonnet. 1964

Tuesday , May 9, 1978 MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman , we have the spectacle here this evening, of statements being made by the government. The departmental people at his elbow, and the Minister refuses to give us the answers to the questions that have been put. I know that the department has the figures, Mr. Chairman. What is this Minister trying to keep from this committee? Is he now trying to salvage his _ own position because he cannot , Mr.

Chairman, get away with the kind of statements that he has been making, and the Member for Elmwood is correct, that they are very loose statements not based on any evidence that we have been presented with , at least, and his opportunity to present the evidence is here . I suggest, Mr.

Chairman , that it's incumbent on the Minister, having made those statements to tell us and to provide for us, if not tonight, then tomorrow, a documentation as to the costs of this facility compared to the costs of any other facility that either is in existence or is being planned relative to the kind of service or function that that facility is going to provide. We have a right to know, Mr. Chairman. It is not right for the Minister of the Crown to make silly statements and then sit back and hope that no one pins him down as to whether they are authentic or they aren 't.

The whole purpose of the Estimates debate is to sort out programs , costs , cost benefits . All of this is part of the exercise, and the committee , Mr. Chairman, is entitled to that information . Surely the Minister can give us a commitment , that he will furnish to this committee information showing us where this particular facility is over-designed , over-built as compared to any other so that we have an idea, a bench mark as to what we are, in fact, building relative to what others have been building for the same function.

Now if the Minister chooses not to build a building because of a different policy in corrections, I accept that. But then let not him leave on the record, Mr. Chairman, the phony argument that there's something unusual about this particular building as it relates to costs and function that it performs, or that it's intended to perform . MR CHAIRMAN: The Member for Elmwood . MR. DOERN: Mr.

Chairman, I believe that, you know, what the Member for Lac du Bonnet says is correct, and I recall very clearly , requiring the staff to produce figures requested by the Premier and our Cabinet, to show comparative costs in other correctional facilities across the country. And, I believe that I recall figures of $60.00, $80.00, $90.00 and $100 a square foot and I believe that when one compares the correctional facilities that we built, that they were in line but not at the highest level of other facilities built in Canada.

And , I would ask as well, if the Minister can't provide us with comparative costs, can he provide us any comparative costs for Brandon? The Brandon correctional facility, I believe, is proceeding. Can he give us any comparative costs between The Pas and Brandon as an example? MR. ENNS: Well, Mr. Chairman , again part of the difficulty is, I've said this earlier, I don't hold that to the responsibility of any member . I recognize that we have two committee systems going.

But, I've repeated myself now several times on the subjec t matter and, yes, I have, it's a fundamental question, it's not a question of comparing costs . I am prepared to accept that the figures are not out of line with what other jurisdictions are doing in this area. But I am saying that the whole system is out of whack. MR. USKIW: That's a different argument. MR. ENNS: I have said that , and the Honourable Member for Wellington showed some empathy for that position.

Now, the specific question the Member for Elmwood asked , the costs in Brandon exceed these costs but that is partly because it is a different nature of a program. There's a residential aspect to it, a training aspect built into it, but I am advised and I know that those costs on a square-footage basis exceed them . That's (a), and secondly , it is very difficult to compare costs . One has to take into consideration where the facilities are being built and for what purposes.

In some instances, there are specific training and educational programs built into the facility; in other cases, it is straight retention for short periods of time . Each facility really stands on its own grounds but I have made the general comment, and I am reflecting this government's attitude, that in general there is some lack of balance in terms of priorizing public moneys when they are spent for these purposes. Mr. Chairman, that is all I can say. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Lac du Bonnet, again. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, had the Minister made that statement initially then we would have not had an hour of useless debate, but the Minister chose to suggest that there was something radically wrong with the structure that was being built and the costs attached to that building. We find now, Mr. Chairman, that the Minister has backed off completely on that statement, that he accepts that those costs are within reason , but perhaps we should review the program and the priorities. That is a very good debatable point and I don 't argue with that point , Mr.

Chairman, but that is not the impression that the Minister tried to leave earlier this evening. The impression was that there was a building that was being overbuilt for the service it was going to give to the people of Manitoba and it was an exaggerated cost; it was unusual, for some unknown reason , relative to the cost of other buildings 1965

Tuesday, May 9, 1978 elsewhere . Now we find that is not true , Mr. Chairman. So I suggest to the Minister that if he would be a little more straightforward instead of trying to play on words . MR. ENNS: That's not fair . MR. USKIW: ... instead of trying to play on words and his attempt , Mr. Chairman , to mislead not only this committee but to mislead the media so that he can get another shot at the former Minister of Public Works . You know , Mr. Chairman , I have had my opportunities to argue with the Minister of Pub! ic Works for eight years-( Interjection)- twelve years , but , Mr.

Chairman , I have never stooped to the position that this Minister has and that is to attack the former Minister on something that is totally unfounded , and then to back away under pressure because he is unable to provide the committee with the evidence that is asked for . That is all that I am objecting to, it's the charade that the Minister is trying to perpetrate on the whole committee . MR. CHAIRMAN: 6.(b)-pass- the Member for Elmwood . MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman , I think that we don 't have to add anything to what the Member for Lac du Bonnet said. I think the record will conclude on the debate on The Pas.

Could we now move on to the Brandon Correctional. Could the Minister indicate what is happening in the Brandon Correctional facility in terms of construction? MR. ENNS : Mr. Chai rman, I am advised that the work at Brandon is proceeding as initially scheduled . I would also advise that the actual construction work is well ahead of schedule. MR. DOERN: Could the Minister indicate when the construct ion will be completed on the facility? MR. ENNS: The suggestion by staff is that it will be completed sometime in the months of September or October . ~ MR. DOERN: Of this year? MR. ENNS: Of this year. MR.

DOERN: Could I go on to another building and ask him what the status is of a proposed senior citizens complex and office building that was to have been built in Elmwood, 60 senior citizens' units plus an office component? The land was acquired; the design was worked on; the contractor was on the verge of commencing construction . Can the Minister indicate whether one or both sides of that project are going to go forward? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, the project for the office complex is shelved .

The project involving the proposed elderly person's complex is presently under review by the Minister responsible for Housing . The land assembly has taken place and is completed and the option remains open to the Minister responsible for Housing to proceed with the elderly housing units . MR. DOERN: Could the Minister bring us up-to-date on the Dauphin office building? I believe that is almost 100 percent. Could he indicate when that will be compl eted and opened? MR. ENNS: Well , Mr. Chairman , the member 's inf ormation is corr ect , that building is at the stage of near completion .

It is contemplated that by mid-August the buildi ng will be ready for occupancy. MR. DOERN: By August. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Memb er for Dauphin . MR. DOERN: I have some more questions, Mr. Chairman . MR. CHAIRMAN: All right , the Member for Elmwood . .. MR. DOERN: The Giml i Industrial Park- we talked about the fact that the CNR portion , which I believe is some $3 million of construction agreed to in a special contract between the CNR and the province, that that facility is proceeding .

But I also believe there were several million dollars worth of other construction , related facilities for the Gimli Industrial Park, for example, upgrading of Aspen ,... Lodge ; certain equ ipm ent , steam distribution system ; roads , etc ., etc ., electrical , mec:hanical upgrading . Could the Minister indicate whether those other expenditures will be made and 1f so, on what? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , I can just indicate to him that the majo r contract involving the CNR facilities are anticipated to be completed relatively soon, in June .

The other projects indicated by the honourable member are in our ongoing program: reconstructio n of the sewage treatment system ; 1966

. .... .. Tuesday, May 9, 1978 some of the equipment replacement ; Phase 2 of the proposed replacement and renovations . The Honourable Member for Elmwood is probably more familiar with these particular items than I am, but in short , the proposed work that was contemplated by the previous administration at Gimli Industrial Park is proceeding . MR. DOERN: So then I take it that the Minister and his government are going to continue to make an investment in Gimli Industrial Park , several million dollars worth of infrastructure, and that they are going to keep the operation go ing to the best of their ability?

They are not going to sell it; they are not going to wind it down ; they are not going to gut it; they are going to carry it on as best they can? MR. ENNS: Very much so. MR. DO ERN: A final point on a list that I have here : Red River Community College . Can the Minister tell us roughly how much money he is going to spend? The Member for Wolseley threw out a comment that he obviously didn't know very much about- he referred to a certain Ron Lazare as a friend of our administration .

I might tell him that he was retained by his administration earlier, ten years ago , and because of his thrifty and economic engineering designs, we have had to spend millions of dollars to correct structural flaws in construction . So could the Minister tell us what is happening at Red River in terms of how many dollars will be spent in the next fiscal year and for what purpose? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , that remedial work is being proceeded with at the cost of some $3.5 million . MR. DOERN: In the next fiscal year? Okay . Well , then , Mr.

Chairman , I just wanted to make a brief comment to summarize this, and then to get to the Minister 's Salary , which is the last item . MR. ENNS: But I would remind him that I have no salary in this department so I would think it would be appropriate that that be kept in context when you are debating my non-existent salary . MR. DOERN: We had an agreement about a general discussion . I just wanted to summarize this, Mr.

Chairman , to put on the record- and I think this is of some interest to the Attorney-General and I tend to press him on this because the Minister of Public Works gave us the following information : The Attorney-General apparently was cool to proceeding at The Pas, but The Pas is proceeding in terms of the correctional facility in terms of the . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Public Works, on a point of order . MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , on a point of order , I am not that tired that I am not aware of what -:-- honourable members are attempting to do.

In response to the questioning by the Honourable Member for The Pas, I indicated to him many reasons why the deferment took place with respect to that facility . I won't repeat that hour-long debate as the Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet already referred to it.

But I indicated to him that it was a project, for differing reasons, that both in the Ministeries directly responsible , that is, the Ministry responsible for Corrections and the Ministry responsible for the Court system , the Attorney-General, that I have had indications from both these Ministers that the project at The Pas is high on their list of priorities and that, I believed , and it was my hope that the project would be proceeded with .

That is what the Minister of Public Works stated and that is all the Minister of Public Works stated and I state this for the record, not to allow members to play games with suggesting that I have firmly and unequivocally indicated to the members of this committee that that construction was in fact proceeding with this summer , that is not the case. The case is that I believe it will. MR. DOERN: I see. Well , then , I must say that the impression given earlier , if I were to call the Member for The Pas back here , he told me in

summary that it was proceeding with and that the Minister had indicated that. Now , the Minister is saying that is not so. He is now saying it is a hope rather than a plan . MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , I am quite prepared to let the Hansard , the public record of what was said a half-hour ago , support what I am saying now . MR. DOERN: Well , then, are you saying now that it is not proceeding, but that it may proceed? MR. ENNS: That is precisely what I am saying. MR. DOERN: Well , then, in order words you are not giving a commitment that it will proceed? MR. ENNS: I am not in a position to give that commitment. MR.

DOERN: So I am saying that there appears to be still some doubt about The Pas Correctional and if I understood the Minister correctly , he said that the Attorney-General was not in fact pressing 1967

Tuesday, May 9, 1978 for the renovation of the Law Courts , or he was not pressing for the construction of the Provincial Judges Building? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , again , if the honourable member recalls , we were talking about the extensive renovations planned for the existing Law Courts facilities .

I indicated that we are in a limited program of renovations- simply the installing of the two elevators that were in fact there and had to be installed- and that the further phases of that renovation were part and parcel of the overall final disposition of the building of new courthouse facilities, building new Law Court facilities and that major renovation programs to be carried on in existing facilities obviously don't make sense until that matter is disposed of. The Attorney -General can speak on this matter on his own accord .

I happen to know that it happens to be a subject matter that's very dear to the Attorney-General's heart and will be in due order of things making his case for that project to proceed with . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Elmwood . MR. DOERN: Well, Mr. Chairman , our government in consultation with the Attorney-General's Department and the senior judges of this province- I can't name them all, Justice Freedman and others , I'm afraid I can't recall all the names- they pressed us for a commitment to have a long overdue renovation of the Law Courts .

It's been talked about for about 10 years at least, and they asked for various projects which could have cost $7.5 million , up to $7.5 million for a new building up to $10 million . And finally after considerable discussion over a period of months , a decision was taken to commence a renovation long overdue of the Law Courts that would cost over a period of time, over a number of years , $3.5 million.

But, I got the distinct impression from the Minister of Public Works that the Attorney-General was not pressing him on this , and that he had simply undertaken to spend a small amount of money to fix the elevators , but that the rest of the project was put on ice. That there was no pressure coming from the A-G in that department , or on the new Provincial Courts Building, which is apparently needed very badly because of a great case-load backup, and because of other pressures on the courts.

So, I just want that to be on the record that according to the Public Works Minister , he said that he is not being pressured to proceed , and gave us the impression that there would be no ~ movement in terms of existing Law Court renovation or new court construction because the A-G is not pushing it. He is silent on that. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Public Works . MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , let me also place this on the record.

That our government and the Attorney-General in consultation with judges and other officials having to work in the proposed new environment, have indicated to us that the site selected by the previous administration and the previous Minister of Public Works is lousy and not satisfactory , and want us to reconsider the whole positioning and the siting of that facility.

And that is precisely the information that has been given to the Attorney-General, and while this information has to be grappled with by the Department of Public Works , there is obviously an opportune time for review of whatever we're doing in this regard. Whether it is the commitment of $3 million worth of extensive renovation to the old facility not in concert with the planned or proposed new facility , and I'm awaiting that direction, and that direction will be forthcoming .

And , the leadership in that area will be made, I repeat for the tenth time, by the appropriate Minister , the Minister directly responsible for those facilities that has to answer to providing the kind of facilities that meets the particular needs of that department. In this case, the Attorney-General . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Elmwood . MR. DOERN: Well , Mr. Chairman , I would just repeat again , the sites were selected , the sites were selected , I guess, in about a two level way.

One , by the Minister of Correct ions, and the Minister of Corrections in the new government is here , and also , of course , the Public Works Minister was involved. And, also a joint team of city technical staff , probably under the direction of the Attorney- General in his capacity of Chairman of Works and Operat ions Committee, but selected by city staff , ~ and selected by a provincial team, they made recommendations in terms of the site . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Dauphin . MR. JIM GALBRAITH: Yes, Mr. Chairman , I'd just like to make a few comments about the new provincial office building in Dauphin .

And , it seems to me that this must have been a project that was put together in a very hurried way by the previous government as an election bait last summer. One of the things that I find very amusing about this new building is that there is virtually no # parking space at this new complex , and I would say that the new Minister of Public Works is . going to run into problems once this building is opened as there is virtually no parking space available in that area of the town . And, I'd like to know if there was any study done in the Dauphin area before this building was proceeded with.

I think that there are going to be some very bad side effects on the town's economy when you take all these government employees out of the town and put them all in one building . The revenue to the town is going to be greatly depreciated and I feel that there should 1968

Tuesday, May 9, 1978 have been a study done. Just going back further , there was a comment made further back in Public Works and it deals with the mixing between the private and public sector , the work load on the ground upkeep, shrubs, flowers , etc ., and also cleaning facilities .

The former minister made the comment that he tried to keep the balance but I have complaints from the Dauphin area that during the last 8 years that there was no contracting done along this line at all in the Dauphin area, and I'd just like to know whether the present government is going to make any change in that policy and start contracting some of the work out for grounds and cleaning facilities? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Public Works . MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman , I believe in response to the Honourable Member for Dauphin, that I've indicated to the committee that the department is reviewing their practices in this matter and where it is considered advisable and feasible either by personnel being available , or small companies , or the kind of help being available, that that aspect of the member's concern will be duly considered and hopefully , you know, taken into account , recognizing that, you know , employment is employment and it may not always be necessarily within the arms of government.

I want to repeat, however, that it's not the intention of the department to in any way approach this in a doctrinaire fashion , that we will always find ourselves in a posit ion where the best advice that the department can give me is that for reasons services can best be done by in-house staff , if I can use that phrase, but I've also asked, and made it clear to the department that I want the other option exercised and examined. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Wellington MR. CORRIN: Mr.

Chairman , getting back and dealing with the proposed and formerly commited provincial judges courts and remand centre for the Winnipeg area. I'm quite concerned in that I've heard that this project is, and I believe the term that was used was under review , I'm very concerned, because I felt that there was an expressed need for the construction and early implementation of this particular facility , and I'm wondering whether the Honourable Minister could advise the committee as to what priority level this particular facility has attained and when we might expect construction to be scheduled? MR. ENNS: Well, Mr.

Chairman , for the twelfth time I will repeat myself and say that I will respond to the requests made by the appropriate department, in this case the Attorney-General's . I happen to know that the matter is of considerable concern and lists high in the ranks of priorities of that Minister 's consideration .

But , I would ask the honourable member whether those questions would not be more appropriate directed to the Attorney-General , directly, either during the discussions of his Estimates or in the House, but the Attorney-General 's Estimates are scheduled right after this committee- pardon me, I think it's Municipal Affairs- but we will then be going subsequently into ~ the A-G's Estimates and the matter can be vented and he can get the appropriate Minister to answer those questions . MR. CORRIN: Again, Mr.

Chairman , I must remind the Minister that it's quite unlikely that the Honourable the Attorney -General is going to succumb to my blandishments. Certainly, I can direct queries to him when we're dealing with his Estimates , but in no way , not within the bounds of the formalities of this particular Legislative Assembly , in no way can I direct him as to where he should lead his priorities. So, Sir, I direct my queries to you and in a sense, I suppose , I'm forced to do so by way of importunation.

I do so because I feel that you having a position in Cabinet, being a person vested with a certain status and authority as a public representative are in a better posit ion to bring forward these types of matters to the members of the • Cabinet and most particularly to the Attorney-General.

If, in your opinion they demand rectification or immediate attention, and I would suggest to you if you are in doubt as to whether there is a need for a proper remand centre in the inner-city area oft his particular capital city , I would suggest that you visit, at your earlies t convenience, the Public Safety Building and apprise yourself of the circumstances, the living conditions available in that particular situation. I must remind the Honourable Minister that this is not a correctional institute. This is not a place where people are sent for , rehabilitation or punishment.

This is not a place where people are sentenced by the courts to serve terms of incarceration . This is rather a place where people are remanded while their cases are pending before the courts. These are people who have not been adjudicated to be guilty of any crimes . MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , on a point of order . Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Public Works on a point of order . MR. ENNS: I appeal to you, Mr. Chairman , that the matter that the honourable member is discussing falls most appropriately under the Attorney-General's Estimates, possibly not even that.

It's a matter of corrections, and/ or there 's certainly a degree of responsibility within the city's jurisdiction in this matter , but certainly not under Public Works. I am flattered by his suggestions that I carry certain status or influence within the Cabinet. I'm sure every Minister does that, but I request, Mr. Chairman, that we are dealing with the matter before him . He can ask me as to, and he has asked me as other members of the committee have asked me, as to what is contained within these Estimates 1969

Tuesday, May 9, 1978 with respect to the building and I've answered that question. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Wellington. To the Member for Wellington would you try your very best to stick to the subject matter 6.(b). MR. CORRIN: I believe that I am sticking to the subject matter . MR. CHAIAN: All right , carry on please. MR. CORRIN: Mr. Chairman, I think that it's exceedingly important that something be made known with respect to this particular facility . Now , I've asked as to what priority level this particular facility, this particular proposal has been accorded by Cabinet.

This Minister is presumably responsible for bringing forward these matters to Cabinet. It's a matter of Public Works. He indicates that it's properly within the purview of corrections, but I would dispute that. It's factually a facility that's being operated, administered by provincial employees . They may well be under the direction of the Minister of Corrections but realistically and factually this Minister is responsible for the circumstances . He, through his department, leases those facilities from the City of Winnipeg .

There was a lease that was executed , as I'm sure he's aware , last year and therefore his department is in fact responsible for the facilities . And I would suggest to him that the facilities are abominable , they're abhorrent, they're repugnant and they demand rectification , early rectification. There were three suicides in those facilities last year . Those were men awaiting trial that elected .. . some may want to be facetious and say that they chose another way, but in no way can anybody make light of that sort of situation .

Three suicides in a remand centre is uncalled for and absolutely unexplainable, in my opinion . I would suggest that any member here who wishes to apprise himself, including the Minister, of the circumstances in that centre make an early visit to that particular building . Because I can tell you quite honestly, Mr. Chairman , and I speak through you directly to the Minister, that I would not ensconce my dog in those facilities. I have seen kennels that are better appointed .

For those of you who want a very graphic description of what is in th at facility , I will give it to you . l do not consider an open room with a bare electric light bulb , and I'm talking about a provincial facility that we are discussing , Mr. Chairman . I am not talking about something alien to this discussion . MR. ENNS: We are not discussing a provincial facility; it hasn't been built yet. Once it's built , it will be my responsibility to maintain it. MR. CORRIN: Mr. Chairman , this Minister is responsible with respect to a lease with the City of Winnipeg.

He leases, through the auspices of the government , those facilities . He has full responsibility for the circumstances within those walls . Now , for him to abdicate that responsibility and suggest that the City of Winnipeg is responsible that is sheer hogwash. It is garbage . It is specious nonsense . He has respoity . Now, I'm not suggesting .. . I don 't want to suggest something that's inordinate . I don't want to make inordin ate demands of this Minister . I appreciate the situation is complex . It has been under deliberation for years .

I appreciate that the past governmen t, in a sense, did drag its feet ; I thought they did . That is, at this point , irrelevant. There were three suicides in that facility last year . The former government did take some act ion - albeit after great and deliberate prodding by representatives of the Manitoba Trial Lawye rs Association, who were familiar with the circumstances of that particular remand facility . And I think it was acknowl edged by all those who were knowledgeable that there was an immediate need for a redress of that situation .

Now, what I am asking is: What is the priority level that will be given to those people? Those people are innocent , awaiting trial. They are ensconced in circumstances, as I began to discuss earlier , where they can 't even go to the bathroom in private , where ther e is a television camera right over their head , which shows ... If any of you want to go down , you can watch people take baths , take showers, go to the bathroom because there are monitors righ t in the waiting rooms , in the guest rooms , where people of both sexes come in and wait for visits. MR.

CHAIRMAN : The Membe r for Wellington , would you please address your remarks to the Chairman , through the Chai r, and not to tho se opposite you and therefore you might be able to shorten your remarks. MR. CORRIN: I'm sure that we are all interestee in those circumstances, and I tell you that I have spent many hours visiting clients in that particular bu ilding, and I tell you that it turns my stomach . It turns my stomach because I can't possibly see how we can all ow people . . .

Even if they are guilty of their crimes - and of course many of them aren't, but even if they were- I couldn 't see how we could , in all good conscience , allow people to remain in those abomin able circumstances. They are primitive . That building was never meant to be a permanent remand centre. When it was built , it was a temporary measure . Those were the terms of reference- that it would be a temporary expedient ; there would in a very few short years be a new facility built.

Things went on that basis and that has proven to be untrue , and people have langui shed in those cells for periods of up to six and seven 1970 ..

Tuesday, May 9, 1978 months . Now I ask you: Circumstances where you are not allowed access to fresh air because there is no place to exercise . You are in the middle of the building . You are not let out of the building . There are no windows . A bare electric light bulb .

You shower and go to the public convenience- and it is a public convenience- in front of a television camera, where your bed consists of a bare mattress with wire sticking out of the mattress stuffing in the middle of a public cell that looks more like a kennel than a place for human beings and .. . -(Interjections)- I might ask if I might participate in discussion , Mr. Chairman, obviously certain people aren 't interested and they are trying to out-shout me. But I might ask whether the new M inister is willing to .. .

Since he has indicated that because of the restraint program this particular facility has been frozen , I want to know when in fact he does indeed contemplate scheduling construction and what priority level he will accord this particular facility? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Public Works . MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , I have answered all the questions the honourable member asked .

I can perhaps just make one observation , that if the honourable member feels- and I believe he feels very strongly about this matter- then he would have to agree with me that the leasing of that particular facility by the previous administration was, in fact , a disgrace. MR. CORRIN: Excuse me, I missed the last few words . Mr. Chairman, the reason that was leased , as I understand it, the City of Winnipeg refused to maintain that building any more. The City of Winnipeg 's position- and I know that Chief Stewart was one of the strongest advocates - was that those facilities were untenable .

He did not want his men involved in further conflict of interest because it not believe it proper- and he was right- that police officers should be asked to guard prisoners, when in fact they were , of course , going to stand witnesses against those people in subsequent trials . He felt that was a conflict of interest. He did not like the circumstances in which he was asked to provide the service. He felt that the whole thing was better in other hands .

And he felt that since this was a matter properly for the provincial government to manage , he strongly advocated and was finally successful in moving representatives of City Council to make demands to have this building turned over to the proper and rightful authority, the provincial government. Now, that finally happened . The provincial government recognized its responsibilities . It took over .. . MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, please .

I have, wit hin the jurisdiction, responsibility of my department , engineers , building managers , project managers ; I do not have any correctional officers; I do not have any police force . I cannot answer for any of the matters that the honourable member is raising .;.\ with me. When decisions are made that the Department of Public Works should proceed, and there are a complex series of decisions have to be made .

They may involve the future use of the old provincial garage , which the former Minister is aware of - not the facility itself, necessarily , but perhaps the space, if we proceed with certain plans . And you know this government is six months old and the Honourable Member for Wellington is laying onto me a problem that has existed for the last eight years , and is laying it at the doorsteps of a Minister that cannot pg.S8ibly answer for these questions . And it's not possible for my staff to answer for these questions , or to advise the Minister to answer these questions . And I appeal to you , Mr.

Chairman , that we deal with the questions that are before us. MR. CHAIRMAN: 6.(b)-pass- the Member for Wellington . But I must caution the Member for Wellington to stick to Public Works and not Corrections and Attorney-General's duties. MR. CORRIN: I must ask the Minister , Mr. Chairman , then , how priorities are indeed established. He raises a very interesting question . He says he is not, as the Minister for Public Works, responsible for priorizing the construction or re-development or renovation of public works . Well, I ask him, then, if he is not responsible , who in the hell is? MR.

ENNS: The appropriate Minister is. MR. CORRIN: The appropriate Minister , okay. Mr. Chairman , there are, I believe- correct me some 14 or 15, or 16 Ministers in this government, how do they come to conclusions and make decisions as to priority? MR. ENNS: Well, Mr. Chairman , again I don't think it's particularly my responsibility to educate somebody who likely never will experience the responsibilities of Cabinet. However, for his edificiation, a Minister is appointed by a Premier .

That Minister then assumes the immediate and direct responsibilities for that department and it is that Minister's responsibility to use whatever means at his disposal - charm, influence, lobby pressure, caucus support - to provide the necessary support to priorize programs within that Minister 's mind that are necessary to that department's function . And I will ask the honourable member to read the Hansard , because it was so repetitive. I stated 1971

Tuesday, May 9, 1978 that in my opening comments, and I am stating it now fort he final time, that the Department of Public Works is not the initiator of these programs . It is simply too ridiculous to assume that possibility because I will tell you what happens when that happens , as it did happen under the previous administration . That's part of the problem . The Department of Public Works did , in fact , initiate programs all over this province . And that's how all of a sudden you end up with a backhouse in Memorial Park that the Premier wasn't aware of until it was built. We don't initiate programs .

We await for the appropr iate department under the due and appropriate process of government to initiate those programs. We are a service department. We respond to those legitimate requests when and if they receive the necessary support from Cabinet. MR. CORRIN: Mr. Chairman, I must say that prior to this discussion I would tell the Honourable Minister that he is a Minister for whom I had a great deal of respect and I am, frankly, shocked to hear him laying on - that's the only term I can use, "laying on" - this committee , putting on this committee , by alluding to his seeming lack of authority .

Suddenly this Minister who, frankly, I think has a great deal of authority in this particular government is putting forth, postulating, a thesis that he is in fact responsible for a service-oriented department and therefore he is more or less at the beck and call of other Ministers . He is somehow a subordinate , inferior Minister . MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , allow me to interject here. The member is describing so totally and so completely my humble and meek character, and that is my role in this government- to respond to the needs and requirements of my fellow Ministers.

And I do that with the keen desire to be a servant to not only the people of Manitoba, but immediately to my fellow Ministers . MR. CORRIN: Mr. Chairman , I would say through you to the Honourable Minister, that if in fact that is his position then I would suggest that appropriately he should resign .

Because there is absolutely no need for the public to pay the salary of a Minister of Public Works if the Minister of Public Works derogates his responsibility , delegates that responsibility to other Ministers , and refuses to take initiatives and action in situations where he is fully aware and cognizant of something that only can be described as an abhorrent neglect of human interests in this province. Now, if you're telling me that you . .. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Public Works. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , on a point of order, as a matter of fact I am doing this job gratis.

There is no salary under consideration for the Minister of Public Works . I am doing it gratis. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Wellington , would you carry on , please. And please stick to the subject material. MR. CORRIN: Mr. Chairman' it's my contention that the Minister must give us some idea of what priority he would accord this particular project. It is improper for him to say that he will simply respond to the initiatives of other Ministers . I do not believe that that is the role of a Minister of the Crown.

I believe that in circumstances such as this , where the Minister is fully aware, notwithstanding that he says it's the responsibility of the Attorney-General or the Minister responsible for Corrections , he is fully aware of the situation at that particular facility . Those honourable members in due course will presumably and probably already have discussed this with him .

He is fully aware of the circumstances , and I would say to him , I would suggest that it is incumbent upon him having that foreknowledge, having that knowledge of those circumstances, to do whatever he can to redress the situation that exists. And it's improper for him to say that he will allow others to , in effect, run his department by telli ng him what to do. Now , if he has not brought this matter to Cabinet, if he has not mentioned this to them that he regards the circumstances of the situation to be intolerable , then I suggest that he do so at his very , very earliest convenience .

A situation where there have been three suicides in less than a year is intolerable . It cannot exist. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. James on a point of order. MR. MINAKER: I have sat here and listened to the Honourable Member for Wellington discuss how the Cabinet should operate , in his opinion, and how the Minister of Public Works should operate, in his opinion . I believe that we are dealing with the Capital Estimates of the Department of Public Works , and I wish the honourable member would stick to that particular subject. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Also I might mention to the Honourable Member for Wellington, you have mentioned three times the suicides. I would ask you if you wou ld quit repeating yourself and hopefully draw your remarks to a conclusion fairly soon. The Member for Wellington. MR. CORRIN: I gasp once again , Mr. Chairman . Since this project has been frozen as a result of the restraint policy , can the Honourable Minister tell us what level of priority will be accorded , and when we might expect construction to be scheduled? That's the fourth time I have asked . 1972 -

Tuesday, May 9, 1978 MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , I have answered that question for the last half hour. The disposition of a major public investment in the building of new law courts facilities involves, first of all, departments immediately other than my own - and I make no apologies for that. I might also say that we have, within our caucus, numerous members from the city- the Member forWolseley, the Member forSt. Matthews , the Attorney-General himself, the Member for St.

James. the Member for River Heights, our Premier- who are quite aware of the concerns about the remand centre in the Safety Building, and bring their pressures to bear on the shaping of priorities. But the fact of the matter remains that the somewhat hasty decision, not unlike the decision made by the Honourable Member for Elmwood in building backhouses in Memorial Park or $3 million garages, as housing or redevelopment centres , is far from accepted by those people involved.

I mentioned that our first response in coming into government is that our Attorney-General and our government received briefs and representatives who said, yes, they would like a new facility , they would like a new Law Courts building, but not where the former Minister of Public Works wanted to put them . So we are reorganizing our whole th inking on that and we are, as the Member for Elmwood talked about and indicated, we're talking about an $8 million or $9 million complex and, Mr.

Chairman, this government is not going to rush in haste and pursue simply for the reason of putting bricks and mortar together until the priorities have been set aside, have been sorted out, and then can be carried out in an appropriate manner . I have indicated to the committee that the Attorney-General, in this instance, has that responsibility . I know from discussions with him that it is of concern to him ; it rates high in the order of priorities with him and will be dealt with in the normal and usual course that these matters are brought to the attention of Cabinet and dealt with . Now, Mr.

Chairman , I cannot be asked to respond to the facilities , the running of the correctional institutions, the running of the Remand Centre . I am the Minister of Public Works; I don't operate the remand facilities in the City of Winnipeg. MR. CHAIRMAN: 6.(b)-pass- the Member for Elmwood . MR. DOERN: I'll ignore the more fiery comments of the Minister, just his playing to the galleries or attempting to amuse the First Minister . But can he inform us, Mr.

Chairman, of how much money the Minister appears to know nothing- has been spent on renovating the existing city jail, for the purposes of the Provincial Corrections Department? Can the Minister tell us how much that total project costs and how much money has already been spent? MR. ENNS: Pardon me, which corrections ... MR. CHAIRMAN: Would the Member for Elmwood repeat the question . MR. DOERN: I'll repeat the question .

The city jail in the Public Safety Building has been taken over by the province and we have signed a lease for it and we committed to renovate it and we committed to make improvements so that there could be some minimal improvement in terms of exercise, etc . How much is that total amount , and how much has been spent , because you may be half-way through that project or farther than that? Can you tell us what the total cost is and how much has been spent because you are not commencing it, you are well into it? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, that kind of information could be acquired through an Order for Return, or I can undertake to provide the member with that information. It is not information that is readily available to us at this time. It would have to take some checking on the part of staff. MR. DOERN: I think it should be clearly stated , Mr. Chairman, that the Member for Wellington has been asking questions and the Minister has been answering as if nothing has happened, as if the project is on the drawing boards .

The fact is that the project is perhaps half-way through or near completion for the use of the Provincial Corrections Department. I would just like to mention to the Member for Dauphin, who made some comments about the Dauphin office building , if he wants more parking for the Dauphin office building, then he can put his case to the Minister of Public Works . We developed the parking for that building on the basis of a formula . If the member thinks it is inadequate, then he can ask his Minister to acquire more land and spend money on developing more parking spaces .

The location of the Dauphin office building was hammered out in conjunction with the city council. I don't believe that the Provincial Department of Public Works made the decision on its own. It was made in consultation with members of your own council. Also, leasing in the Town of Dauphin is still taking place. Not all the leases were combined into that particular building. So, I would conclude on this point, Mr. Chairman, and then perhaps we can move on to the Minister 's Salary, that it is very easy to take swipes at another government's construction or buildings MR.

ENNS: No, it is not very easy at all, it has to be a particular government you take swipes at. MR. DOERN: As a matter of fact, it is very easy. I could dredge up in a detailed way, two particular 1973

Tuesday, May 9, 1978 buildings that were quite flawed that were built by your administration. I'll just mention them in passing: Red River Community College, which has millions of dollars of structural correctional work being done to it; and secondly, the Norquay Building, which was poorly designed, inadequate elevators, etc., etc. -(Interjection)- Yes, well, it is Doug Campbell's building but it was built by your administration. MR. LYON : No, it wasn't. MR. DOERN : Were you in office in 1959 and 1960? MR. LYON: Yes. MR. DOER N: Well, I believe . MR.

CHAIRMAN : Will the Member for Elmwood continue to address his remarks to the Chair . MR. DOE RN: Mr. Chairman, I am not going to take smart-ass comments from the First Minister or anybody else and I would ask you to tell him to mind his own business and watch his language. MR. CHAIRMA N: 6.(b)-pass? MR. DOERN: I'm not taking insults from the First Minister or anybody else. MR. CHAIRMAN: 6.(b)-pass . Resolution 108: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $24,721 ,700-pass. In accordance with the normal practice , we will refer to Resolution 104, 1.(

a) Administration. The Member for Elmwood . MR. DO ERN: Mr. Chairman , I have some comments I want to make here in conclusion . I want to reiterate a couple of points and I am glad the First Minister is here because one of these points pertains to some of his comments that were made during the election campaign . That concerns his ill-informed and tossed-off comment concerning the requirements at the Portage Home and the fact, according to him, that all it would have required was a few thousand dollars to bring the Manitoba Home up to fire code requirements , or up to a Fire Commissioner's report.

Now, that is what the First Minister said some six to eight months ago . We obtained information from the present Minister of Public Works that the requirement to bring one building in the Manitoba Home up to the new fire code was $750,000 for East Grove, and secondly that Dr. Lowther estimated, on the basis of architectural estimates , that $4 million to $6 million would have to be spent to bring the Manitoba Home up to the new fire code .

The Minister of Public Works himself has indicated that it would require, using his figures, $40 million to $50 million to $60 million to bring provincial buildings and institutions into compliance with the new fire code . Mr. Chairman, this is a far cry from a comment or a quip tossed off by the First Minister, "A few thou sand dollars would have saved lives, etc ." His own Minister tells us now that to meet the fire code province-wide is going to cost $50 million . That is not a few thousand dollars, that is thousands of thousands of dollars to do that.

He also tells us that he is going to make an effort , which I commend him for, he is going to make an effort this year to spend $5 million to meet the fire code and he is going to start with certain institutions. But I say to him that even though this is commendable and a step in the right direction , that it is going to take him 10 years of activity and 10 years of effort to meet the Provincial Fire Code and all that time he will be in violation of the Provinc ial Fire Code , that for at least 10 years, he will be in violation of the very code that we were criticized for not being on a par with.

So I simply point that out to him, that he should commence his program and he should complete his program, but if an accident or an arson or a tragedy occu rs, then he will stand condemned in the same way that he condemned our administration. I think that he did not meet the argument of my colleague , the Member for St. Vital, concerning the community residences, if he is prepared to spend a large amount of money in that institution at the very time when the staff and the director are arguing that several hundred people should be put into communities .

He is going to the extreme of spending an enormous amount of money into some buildings which will then perhaps , in a matter of months , no longer be used. Now, a couple of other points I would like to make . The Minister said- and I put this on the record again, these are points that I strongly concur with- that he intends to provide about the same mix in terms of contracting out that we provided . He also indicated that the Environmental Lab was proceeding. Those are points that I strongly support.

He also indicated that there are some 233,000 square feet of vacant space, equivalent to a Woodsworth Building , that is now vacant and I say that he has a responsibility, like any other Minister , to try to consolidate his operation and to direct staff in such a way that as much as possible, that vacant space will not be paid for, that he will sub-lease , that he will wind up leases, and that he will consolidate because of the terrific expense. I also hope that he will make his decision shortly , because I really believe that he is playing around with the matter of the Central Provincial Garage.

I don 't know how he started out on that project 1974

Tuesday, May 9, 1978 originally , I can

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	31-2-38b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	31st 2nd hansardpdf 38b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	01d3f96a770f3f53283533a7b0b2b7ed7d2010d3

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