Fourth Session - Thir ty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLVIII No. 448 - 1:30 p.m., Thur sday, May 7, 1998 ISSN 0542-5492

Membe r ASHTON, Steve BARRETT. Becky CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUA Y, Louise, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FAURSCHOU, David FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN. Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HELWER, Edward HICKES, George lEN NISSEN, Gerard KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWA Y, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. McGIFFORD, Diane MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon.

MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEWMAN, David, Hon. PENNER, Jack PITURA, Frank, Hon. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. RADCLIFFE. Mike, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER. Jack. Hon. RENDER, Shirley ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis SALE, Tim SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STRUTHERS, Stan SVEINSON, Ben TOEWS, Vic, Hon. TWEED, Mervin VODREY. Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann Vacant MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Constituency Thompson Wellington Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Pembina Lakeside Interlake Brandon East Portage Ia Prairie Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norbert St. Johns Elmwood Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Osborne Assiniboia St. James River East Riel Emerson Morris Lac du Bonnet River Heights Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Crescent wood Broadway Kirkfield Park Dauphin La Verendrye Rossmere Turtle Mountain Fort Garry Swan River Charleswood Political Affiliation N.D.P. N. D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C.

P.C. P. C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. Lib. Lib. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N. D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C . P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N. D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

2743 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thur sday, May 7, 1998 The House met at 1: 30 p.m. ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Mining Reserve Fund Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Fiin Flon): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of H. Klu nder, A.C. Borgstrom, C. Woods and others praying that the Legisla tive Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Newman) to consider immediately restoring the $6 million taken from the Mining Reserve Fund. Winnipeg Hospitals Food Services-Privatization Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition ofK.

Moore, D.V. Boboski, C. Champagne and others praying that the Legisla tive Assembly ofManitoba urge the Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik) to put an end to the central ization and privatization of Winnipeg hospitals food services. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Mining Reserve Fund Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen). It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

WHEREAS mining is a billion dollar industry in Manitoba directly employing more than 4,300 people pumping more than $240 million in wages alone into the Manitoba economy; and

WHEREAS part of the mining taxes on operating mines goes into the Mining Reserve Fund; and

WHEREAS the Mining Reserve Fund was set up for the welfare and employment of persons residing in a mining community which may be adversely affected by the total or partial suspension or the closing down of mining operations attributable to the depletion of ore deposits; and

WHEREAS the provincial government has withdrawn $6 million from the Mining Reserve Fund and put this money into general revenue; and

WHEREAS many mining comm unities having contributed millions of dollars to the pro vincial economy for many years are now nearing the end of their known ore resources. WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Energy and Mines to consider immediatel y res toring the $6 million taken from the Mining Reserve Fund. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS World Red Cross Day Hon. Frank Pitura (Minister of Government Services): Madam Speaker, I have a statement for the House.

Tomorrow, May 8, is the birthday of Henri Dunant, founder of the International Red Cross movement. This date is celebr ated as W arid Red Cross Day by 17 7 Red Cross and Red Crescent societies around the world. Tomorrow the Red Cross flag will fly over Memorial Park to commemorate this important day. The Red Cross is respected and known for its protection of human rights and its assistance to the most vulnerable across the world and across the street. Nowhere was this more evident than in the response offered by Red Cross to Manitoba's flood of the century.

Red Cross was there throughout the disaster, bringing together more than 2,200 volunteers to answer Manitoba's call for help. At the height of the crisis Red Cross registered more than 25,000 evacuees from the flood zone. Its call centre has handled more than

2744 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 7, 19 98 26,000 inquiries relating to the flood. It reunited more than I ,250 famil ies. One year after the devastating floods, the Canadian Red Cross continues to provide much needed assistance to many affected by the disaster. Through the Red Cross Manitoba flood appeal fund, to which generous Canadians have donated more than $23 mill ion, 20,000 people have been assisted. Red Cross is an important partner in Manitoba's Emergency Management Organization. Manitobans should know that in times of disaster or emergency, the Red Cross will be there.

As members look upon the Red Cross flag flying in Memorial Park tomorrow, please contemplate for a moment what Red Cross means and what the world might be like without the Red Cross. Thank you. * (13 35) Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Just to add a few words to the minister's comments today, we too would like to pay tribute to the volu nteers in the International Red Cross and the Red Crescent societies across the world. We would lik e to particularly note the comments made by the minister to pay tribute to the Red Cross vol unteers who worked so hard last year in our province of Manitoba.

We had the opportunity at some ofthe evacuation centres, some of the places that were ravaged by the flood, to meet people from the Red Cross, along with people from the Mennonite Central Committee, people from our food banks and other organizations that were working so hard to help people recover from this flood last year. Madam Speaker, the Red Cross and the Red Crescent societies work across our world and work on behalf of people in disaster or people who are living after a disaster has taken place.

We would want to also heed the advice of the Red Crescent and Red Cross organizations working with people like the Doctors without Borders, who are speaking out on behalf of the victims of disasters, whether they be man-made through wars, or whether they be made through nature, that today as we pay tribute to the thousands of vol unteers, we should listen to the words of people working on behalf of those who are suffering from both man-made and natural disasters in our world. National Forest Week Hon. Glen Cummi ngs (Minister of Natural Resources): I have a statement for the House.

Madam Speaker, every year at this time Manitobans and Canadians cele brate National Forest Week between May 3 and May 9 in this current year. As part of this campaign to help Manitobans become more aware of this special week, the Manitoba Forestry Association has provided spruce seedlings to all members of the Assembly, and we thank them for the lovely trees we have here today. Receiving a spruce seedling each spring is a reminder to all of us just how impor tant forests are to Manitoba and to all Canadians.

The forest industry in our province is now worth more than $700 milli on to our economy with the potential to be worth $I billion with significant forest industry development. The forest industry in our province continues to grow and prosper and benefits all Manitobans. National Forest Week follows the signing of Canada's Forest Accord and the initiation of a new National Forest Strategy. Manitoba was pleased to be a signatory to Canada's Forest Accord and is committed to imple menting the National Forest Strategy.

The accord and strategy are key documents supported by many stakeholders in forestry regarding our commitment to sustainable forest management. Madam Speaker, the new strategy represents a progressive five-year agenda for the members of the Canadian forest community. That community is represented by government, industry, aboriginal people, environmental groups, private woodlot owners and other nongovernment organizations. A series of partnership agreements were announced last week at the eighth National Forest Congress where 350 prominent forest community representatives were presented with the new strategy.

The announcements inclu ded initiatives from Manitoba for an eco-based pilot project and the new forest inventory standards of Manitoba Natural Resources.

May 7, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 2745 National Forest Week is a special time to celebr ate our forests. I congratulate the Manitoba Forestry Association for its efforts each and every year and for the past number of years for reminding us of this valuable resource. I ask all members of this Assembly to join me in supporting their effort. Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): I wish to thank the minister for bringing this statement forward today. I want to join with him in congratulating the Manitoba Forestry Association for bringing this to our attention.

I have a spot pla nned for my Colorado blue spruce in my yard already. Thanks to the MFA for providing me that tree and the rest of us in the House. It seems like ju st a couple or three weeks ago, Madam Speaker, that we did already make a statement on National Forestry Week, but it is a pleasure to do so again. I want to commend the Forestry Association for its work in educating people, its efforts in educating people as to the importance of trees.

I would suggest to the Manitoba Forestry Association that they work a little bit on this government and this minister so that they can become more educated on the importance as well and know how important it is to live up to the national accords that they do sign. * (1 340) With those words, congratulations to the Forestry Association for providing us with the opportunity today in the Legisla ture to put a few words on the record as to the importance of trees and the rate at which we cut trees in this province. Thank you very much.

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 53-The Apprenticeship and Trades Qualifications Act Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and Training): I move, seconded by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson), that leave be given to introduce Bill 53, The Apprenticeship and Trades Qualifications Act;

Loi sur l'a pprentissage et Ia qualification professionnelle, and that the same be now received and read a first time. His Honour the Lieutenant Governor, having been advised of the contents of this bill, recommends it to the House. I am pleased to table the Lieutenant Governor's message with this. Motion agreed to. Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery, where we have this afternoon thirty Grade 11 students from Garden City Coll egiate under the direction of Ms. Torrie Preteau and Mrs. Nancy Roche.

This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Duncan Flett Bail Hearing Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): My question is to the First Minister (Mr. Filmon). Duncan Fle tt was previously convicted of manslaughter in the province of Manitoba. He had a hearing on December 16 , 19 97, where he was alleged to have attempted murder. On that day he was released on bail.

Unfortunately and regrettably, the same individual was arrested this last weekend having been alleged to have committed a viole nt sexual assault. I would like to ask the Premier: did the Crown attorney oppose the bail on December 16 , 19 97? Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): As this matter is presently before the courts, it would not be appropriate to comment on it. What I can assure the member is that our Crown attorneys, on a consistent and constant basis, ensure that their policies are responsive to the concerns of the public and the issue of public safety.

So I know that I was very plea sed to see the Crown attorneys issue a memorandum last week outlining the stand that they will be taking in respect of violent and gang-related offences. Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, the minister comments on a lot of things except the matters that are accountable

2746 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 7, 19 98 directly to the administration of justice and the activities of the Crown attorneys. He can point fingers all over the place except look in the mirror. I would lik e to ask the Premier (Mr. Filmon): why did the Crown attorney on December 16 , 19 97, not oppose bail, a fact that we have verified with both lawyers and lis tening to the tape? Why did the provincial Crown attorney not oppose bail with the alleged manslaughter that took place on December 16 ? Mr.

Toews: Madam Speaker, one of the things that we have to be very careful about is the issue of the independence of these Crown officers. They, in fact, perform independent legal duties on behalf of the people of Manitoba. In that particular case, I know that the Crown attorney weighed the situation and determined then, in accordance with the appropriate process, that opposition to the bail may not be successful and would not be successful, and I will not quibble with that type of a decision. It is a difficult decision.

I know that what the Crown attorneys have done recently in terms of setting a standard gives additional clarification to all Crown attorneys to ensure that there is vigila nce in respect of opposing bail of certain types. * (1 345) Crown Attorneys Operational Review Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): The minister could not comment on the case, and then he said that the Crown attorney was presuming what the judge would do in terms of the public's safety. I think it is the role of the public Crown attorney to represent the public's interest.

The same Crown attorney was quoted as saying: I cannot remember exactly the case. It was a serious one. I have to deal with 70 other cases sometimes on a given day, a point that we have been trying to raise to the Minister of Justice, the former Minister of Justice and the previous Minister of Justice. We believe the Crown attorneys are stretched to the limit. They do not have enough resources to represent the public's interest in terms of numbers, and I would like to ask the Premier (Mr.

Film on): will he order an operational review of the Crown attorneys' office so the Crown attorneys will have enough resources to represent the public's interest in courts rather than having the spectacle that we see today? Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I do want to indicate that, on an ongoing basis, our Crowns do review the process. I want to point out for the member that our system here in Manitoba is perhaps one of the best in Canada. That does not mean that we cannot improve it.

We are constantly looking to improve it, but I simply point to the NDP government in British Columbia where right today thousands of cases are at risk of being thrown out because the NDP government there has refused to provide the appropriate resources to the Crown. So we have been taking very firm steps- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Minister of Justice, to comple te his response. Mr. Toews: Well, just yesterday, the member for St.

Johns acknowledged that the Crown attorneys were doing a good job, and they are doing a good job, and we are not facing the critical situation that they are facing in British Columbia where today, under the NDP government, thousands of cases are at risk of being thrown out. Duncan Flett Bail Hearing Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): To the Minister of Justice. This is the minister who likes to point fingers. He is pointing fingers everywhere. He has run out of points on the compass.

He poin ts fingers at the Supreme Court of Canada, the Criminal Code, the federal government, and most recently judges whose decisions are often only as good as the information they get, and that is up to the minister's department. Now, at the Flett bail hearing, this government did not oppose bail even though Mr. Fle tt had a conviction for manslaughter and was facing charges of attempted murder. His victim had been left with permanent brain injury, unable to speak in hospital. Now that is information that this minister surely knew when he attacked judges in the context ofthat case.

May 7, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2747 My question to the minister is: will he admit that, while this minister is pointing fingers, looking for scapegoats, he has been dropping the ball, this government has been dropping the ball? That government across the way is a threat to the safety of Manitobans. Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, again, the member fails to understand the very important independence of the Crown attorneys' office, and he is suggesting that pol itical officials direct prosecutions. That is totally, totally unacceptable.

But what I am prepared to say is that the Crown attorneys, the director of Prosecutions and the deputy minister are taking every appropriate step to ensure that the public of Manitoba are safe. We are working together with the police forces to ensure that the public are safe in the streets and in their homes. We as a government are committed to implementing policies such as providing direct funding to our police department so that they can hire additional police officers to be out on the street to ensure that public safety is secure. Mr.

Mackintosh: Would this minister, who only last week issued a memo directing his prosecutors, explain to Manitobans why it is this government, why it is this minister's policy not to oppose bail in cases lik e the Fle tt case, and apparently the Crown neglected to tell the court of the manslaughter conviction, and when staff clearly knew of the threat-and I will quote, Madam Speaker, from the transcript where two counsels are overheard saying to each other: you know, I hope he doesn't get drunk and do anything. The other responded: yeah, he's got manslaughter on his record.

Can he explain that policy, Madam Speaker? * (1 350 ) Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, I know that the Crowns are doing a very good job, and I am not prepared to second-guess the Crown attorney in that particular case. I know that when I served as a prosecutor under the NDP government, we never received the type of support that I believe this government over the past 10 years has supported their Crown attorneys. I, as a former Crown attorney, understand exactly the concerns and the difficulties that they face and that the police face.

As a former Crown attorney and a person who believes very strongly in that office, I want to see that all of their concerns are met, and we will continue to meet their legiti mate demands for assistance. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for St. Johns, with a final suppl ementary question. Crown Attorneys Operational Review Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St.

Johns): Will this minister explain why-when caseloads are going up, cases are more complex, this government takes away paralegal support from Crown attorneys and takes a hundred thousand out of the budget last year-i s the government rejecting our call for an operational review to make sure that the Crown prosecutors have the supports, the technology, the protocol, the organization necessary to protect the interests and the public's safety in Manitoba? Hon.

Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Well, Madam Speaker, as a result of an operational review and other reviews such as the Lavoie inquiry, we in fact have provided additional supports, additional computer hardware, additional paralegals, additional advocates for victims. So the thing that the member wants us to embark upon, we have done. We will continue to provide more supports for our Crown attorneys to ensure that they continue to do a good job on behalf of the people of Manitoba.

I know that our senior staff review general policies regarding bail and other matters on a regular basis to ensure that we remain responsive to the concerns of the people of Manitoba. Provincial Court Act Judicial Appointment Process Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, an independent committee responsible for the judicial appointments has accused this minister of political interference. Mr. Jouber t, the president of the Manitoba Bar Association, said it is an affront to the judicial independence here in Manitoba.

2748 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 7, 19 98 I would like to ask the Premier: has his Minister of Justice follo wed the appointment process for judges as outlined in The Provincial Court Act? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, to the best of my knowledge, yes. Mr. Doer: I would like to ask the Premier: what conditions under such

Section 31. ( 4) of The Provincial Court Act, which allow the Minister of Justice to go back to the nominating committee, which one of the two conditions was met by the government in order for them to propose new candidates to be selec ted for the purposes of judges? Was it the condition that one of the judges was not able to serve, or was it one of the conditions that any of the people, the seven people proposed, were unwilling to accept the position? Hon.

Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, the suggestion that the list was to be expanded to include bil ingual candidates in fact was not a suggestion made by me. It was in fact a suggestion made by the chairperson of that committee when she came to see me in respect of this particular issue. She in fact indicated that the legisla tion enabled her to go back to the committee to seek their consent for further names. * (1 355) Mr. Doer: The minister never answered the question. I asked the question about what condition was met under the act.

I would like to ask the minister: given the fact that the conditions of the bulletin, the bulletin that was made public, and the other conditions for selection of judges never stated the condition that the minister is stating today, what condition was met for the minister to go directly to the nominating committee under the two sections that are in

Section 31 of the act? Mr. Toews: The suggestion that I went to the nominating committee is not correct. The chairperson comes to see me on that particular issue.

The discussion regarding bilin gual judges has been a topic that has been ongoing between myself and the chief over a matter of months and so when the- this was an issue that the Chief Judge, as the chairperson of this committee, had discussed prior to this nominating process commencing, and this issue was specifically raised in respect of the community representatives well in advance of the committee meeting, much less considering any specific candidates.

My sensitivity to this particular issue had in fact been heightened by a meeting with Judge Chartier, who is in fact conducting a review of French language services on behalf of the government of Manitoba. The Chief Judge, acting as a chair, was well aware of that particula r concern. We have discussed that matter on a number of occasions, and that was certainly central to the thinking both of the Chief Judge and other committee members. Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, of course other committee members being Mr.

Joubert, who is quite prominent in the Francophone community and the legal community, totally disagrees with the minister and has accused him of pol itical interference in the way that he has not followed the act in the way that judges and the nominating process should work. The nominating committee put seven names forward; the minister had only two conditions to reject the seven names. Those two conditions were not met. Would the minister confirm-[interjection] Well, the Premier (Mr. Filmon) may want to answer this question. Will the Premier confirm that Mr. Joyal and Ms.

Elli ot were names proposed by the minister to the nominating committee? An Honourable Member: Madam Speaker, I want to say that at no- Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable minister was not recognized. I apologize; my mike was not on. Mr. Toews: Thank you, Madam Speaker. At no time did I suggest any names to the Chief Judge in terms of an appointment process. The process is outlined in the legisla tion, and both I and the chairperson followed that legis lation. The issue of a bil ingual position came up between our discussions.

The chairperson, in response to the concerns that we discussed, in fact provided a solution. I thought it was reasonable and agreed with her suggestion, but I would state at no stage did ·I suggest any names to the committee, including the chair.

May 7, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 2749 Provincial Court Act Judicial Appointment Process Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Madam Speaker, to the Minister of Justice. There is an important law in this province to protect the public from pol itical interference by the Minister of Justice in the selection of judges so judges are not seen as simply accountable to a pol itical party or a particular politician and so courts are not tainted by patronage and bias.

My question to the minister is: two days after the minister talks as if he is interested in doing away with the li ngering perception of some unfairness for the old boys thing in the appointment of judges in Manitoba, would he admit that he has, in fact, done the old boys thing, and more yet, he has broken the law, he has rejected seven names that were given to him by the nominating committee, and he told them to go back and recommend two specific friends of his? Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): That is absolutely untrue.

At no time did I suggest any names to the Chief Judge, and to come from that party where the Leader of the Opposition who was in government and appointed his own sister-in-la w to the bench, that is remarkable. Point of Order Mr. Gary Doer (Leader ofthe Opposition): Madam Speaker, when the Law Society had recommended to the government my sister-in-law, I withdrew- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. point of order; we have simply heard from an extremely embarrassed Leader of the Opposition. * (1 400) Madam Speaker: Order, please.

On the point of order raised by the honourable Leader of the official opposition, the honourable Leader does not have a point of order. It is clearly a dispute over the facts. * * * Mr. Mackintosh: Would this minister, instead of pointing fingers as is his habit, Madam Speaker, deal with the serious issue that is of concern and admit that when he tells people that he needed a French judge and a third position, a third judge appointed, he had no authority to do so? The Order-in-Council specifically authorizes the filling of only two vacancies; the ads speak nothing of a bil ingual judge.

Will he admit that that is simply a ruse, that is, to divert attention from this minister's breach of the rules and the laws of Manitoba? Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, what I can indicate is that in fact the appropriate process was followed. This was an issue that we had raised jointly as the Chief Judge and I discussed the matter of the appointment of more French-la nguage capacity on the bench, and the suggestion that was made to me during the course of our meeting was, in my opinion, a reasonable one, and it required the consent of the committee.

The committee did not consent to any expansion, and at that point, that matter ended. I will categorically say that at no time did we reject the list of seven. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for St. Mr. Doer: Hold it. I have a right to answer this Johns, with a final supplem entary question. question. I withdrew from all cabinet discussions on the appointment of judges, and my ethics are a Jot higher than members opposite who do not even know how to withdraw from the issue of the golden share. Madam Speaker: The honourable government House leader, on the same point of order. Hon.

James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, we have not heard any grounds for a Mr. Mackintosh: Madam Speaker, a simple question to the minister: he was presented with seven names; why did he not simply accept, make a recommendation to cabinet from those seven names? Who is telling the truth, the president of the Manitoba Bar Association or this minister? Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, I cannot comment on the statements of Mr. Joubert as he was never present at any of the meetings between the Chief Judge and I, but I do want to say that I have accurately conveyed the

2750 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 7, 19 98 substance ofthe discussions between the Chief Judge and I on this issue. The committee ultimately makes the determination of the names that come to the minister and then to cabinet, and I want to say that there was nothing inappropriate in that. The committee considered the request made to them, not by me but by the chairperson, and that committee, I understand, rejected that request. Health Sciences Centre Bed Availa bility Mr. Neil Gaudry (St. Bonif ace): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Health.

In the last 10 or 12 days I have spent a number of hours at the Health Sciences Centre. I was not snooping around or anything, but I would like to complime nt the work and the service that was received at the Health Sciences Centre. I was advised during my visit there that, two weeks ago tomorrow, there were four patients that were admitted and were to be in daycare surgery. They were to be admitted on a long-term basis, but the lack of beds-two of them had to be sent home that evening and to be returned on Monday.

Can the minister advise if he is aware of the situation and what he is doing to rectify the problem? Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, if the member was at the hospital for personal health reasons or in his family, I wish him or his loved ones all the best and a speedy recovery.

As the member knows, the cases he is probably ref erring to I do not have specific detail, but I would suspect from his description that they were elective cases and the Health Sciences Centre, in managing its resources, elective are of course not as high priority as urgent and from time to time procedures are bumped. That is part of the management of that system. I can tell him that yesterday we announced here the construction of a 12 0-bed long-term care facil ity at Concordia Hospital which will allow for the conversion back to acute care beds of some 60 long-term beds currently housed in that facility.

As well, there will be some other announcements coming in the weeks ahead regarding adding bed capacity to the system in Winnipeg which should relieve some of the pressure that he refers to. Mr. Gaudry: To the same minister: can the minister advise what is happening on a short-term basis at the Heal th Sciences Centre to look after the problem of lack of beds? Mr. Praznik: The issue around bed management, there has been a great easing of the pressure that took place on the system this winter.

In the reports that I have received from the Winnipeg Hospital Authority, hospitals are now managing far more around their normal rate, but in any large institution like the Health Sciences Centre that is our major trauma hospital, any particular events or any emergencies that arise from time to time can put pressure on that system and change the mix.

There is always usually some wait for people waiting for elective procedures, and I am not aware of the type of surgery of which he speaks, but we all know that people on the list, for example for elective heart surgery, may in fact have it postponed if an urgent case comes up. So those are the kinds of situations that have always been part of our health system, and we do recognize the need to take some stress of f our bed situation. That is why we have committed to over 500 additional personal care home beds in this year's budget. Health Care Facilities Food Services-Privatization Mr. Neil Gaudry (St.

Boniface): To the same minister, Madam Speaker: in regard to the kitchen facilities: can the minister advise what number of jobs will be lost when the changeover happens at the Health Sciences Centre? Hon.

Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): As we have discussed in Estimates during the course of Estimates debate-and I know that all members cannot be in each committee because we are running three committees-but the Urban Shared Services have indicated that they are working with the human resources people in each facil ity and between the new jobs that are available, the vol untary separation incentive that many employees are availing themselves of, and the additional resources that were put into retraining and matching those employees with other job opportunities in the hospital system, they are still on track to have zero layoffs in this particular process throughout the system.

May 7, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 275 1 Brandon General Hospital Physician Resources-Pediatrics Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Madam Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Health. There is indeed rising anxiety and concern in the community of Brandon regarding the decision of Brandon doctors not to deliver babies at the Brandon General Hospital starting tomorrow. The doctors believe the Brandon General Hospital is unsafe due to the Jack of pediatric services, and I can assure the minister that there are very strong feelings on this issue among the doctors.

So I ask: why has the Minister of Health allowed this situation to develop to a crisis stage when the problem has been known for over a year, and has the government a plan to deal with the crisis situation that is on our doorsteps and beginning tomorrow? Expectant mothers and their families want action now, Madam Speaker. Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I want to thank the member for Brandon East for raising this particular issue. I know the member for Brandon West (Mr. McCrae) and I have been working on this dil igently over the last while.

The word that the member uses with respect to a crisis is, I would suggest, not accurate. What we have is a strike. We have a la bour dispute. I would like to table for the information of the member a letter, that he quite likely has not seen, from the College of Physicians and Surgeons that indicates very clearly that the obstetricians in Brandon are perfectly saf e and able to continue to carry out the nonemergency or nonhigh-risk births in the city of Brandon, that they are perfectly capable of doing that which accounts for approximately 60 percent of the births.

So there is no medical reason for the stoppage on those low-risk births tomorrow. * (1410 ) Mr. L. Evans: Well, will the minister then, in view of his last reply, Madam Speaker, advise if he will take steps to resolve or somehow mediate the situation since it appears that he is prepared to treat the withdrawal of services as a form of strike action?

I want to ask the minister: does he realize that Brandon is in an extreme crisis situation now that more doctors may be leaving, including obstetricians, and that the hospital may be more incapacitated in the very near future if some resolution is not found to this situation? Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, first of all, about a year ago at this time we went through very much the same situation with respect to emergency services at Brandon-and I know the member for Brandon East will recall that time-and we had a strike in the emergency room. We had all kinds of requests for band-aid solu tions to a problem.

It was our position then that we had to address these issues on a province-wide basis in a fair and methodical way. The result today is that Brandon now has the best emergency medical service it has ever had in its history-it has four full-time emergency doctors-and it is our intention to do the same thing in pediatrics. I am pleased to inform the member that we have authorized up to four positions in Brandon on contract between $1 85,000 and $205,000 a year contract range, which is about $30,000 more than pediatricians in Winnipeg.

Given the fact that we have not detected any interest in the MMA solving this particular issue, in this instance we unila terally will be increasing fees for obstetrics some, I believe it is 20 percent over the next three years in certain categories, and we announced that today. Mr. L.

Evans: Well, Madam Speaker, very briefly: is this minister telling us that there is parity or better than parity between Winnipeg and Brandon, because the doctors have a sense of injustice in terms of the compensation, and they believe they are not being treated fairly and that there is not parity, and that is the basis of the problem that has arisen so far? Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, just by way of background, the Manitoba Medical Association told us very clearly months ago that this would be a place where they would actually tum on the heat in their general issue.

So I think that puts the context of which we all may be used as part of their bargaining tactics. But let us remember that Brandon physicians in all categories of the fee tariff, if I remember correctly,

2752 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 7, 19 98 have a 2.5 percent premium over Winnipeg today. As well, with the contracts for pediatricians, we have authorized those contracts, because Brandon does need four pediatricians, in a contract range of $1 85 ,000 to $205,000 per year, which is about $30,0 00 more than the average bil lings of pediatricians in Winnipeg. So, yes, Brandon and those rural points with that service are receiving higher remuneration, or will be, than their counterparts in Winnipeg. Provincial Court Act Judicial Appointment Process Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): I would like to again ask the Premier, who said that he is confident that the Minister of Justice (Mr.

Toews) did not interfere in the judicial appointment process, as stated and articula ted by the president of the Bar Association of Manitoba-a nother member of the committee for judicial appointments was Colleen Suche, a person who is a representative of the Law Society of Manitoba, a person appointed by this government and respected by this government to carry on many functions on behalf of the public here in Manitoba, a person whose word is trusted in terms of the people of this province. I would like to ask the Premier: did he contact Colleen Suche, another member of the committee, to see whether Mr.

Jouber t is telling the truth about pol itical interference of the minister, or the minister is? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I think the point that the member opposite should be aware of is that neither Ms. Suche nor Mr. Jouber t met or talked with the Minister of Justice on this issue. So whatever it is that they are commenting on is something that they are alleged to have been told by somebody else. There is absolutely no evidence or indication that they met with-so how did he interfere with their actions when he did not talk to them or see them?

That is the preposterous thing that we are having brought here by way of innuendo and hearsay. Minister of Justice Removal Request Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, Colleen Suche is a person on the committee who has. been working for months on the selection process, appointed by the government. The committee proposed seven names to the government early this week. Then they were given messages and instructions back from the minister. We have the president of the Bar Association calling on the Minister of Justice (Mr. Toews) for political interference.

I would like to ask the Premier if Colleen Suche also says that the minister intervened and interfered in the process of selecting judges. Will the Premier do the right thing and fire the Minister of Justice? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, the member, representing the presumed comments of the various individuals from the committee that he has now referred to, one and possibly a second, alleged that the government through the Minister of Justice had rejected the seven names that were submitted to him. That is patently wrong.

So now, based on false information and wrong information, he is trying to create some other kind of issue here. I suggest to him that rather than deal with innuendo, rather than deal with rumour, he ought to deal with facts and not bring forth false allegations to this Legisla ture. Minister of Justice Independent Investigation Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, we have the president of the Bar Association accusing the Minister of Justice of political inter­ ference.

We have other individuals on the selection process very concerned about the judicial independence or the process of the Minister of Justice and what he did with the seven names that came forward from the nominating committee. I would like to ask the Premier today, if he is interested in facts: will he bring Ted Hughes into Manitoba and investigate- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Doer: I know you are afraid to investigate the word of the Minister of Justice. Why are you afraid to bring Ted Hughes in to investigate the integrity and the word of the Minister of Justice?

Are you just afraid that he will find out that the Minister of Justice did interfere with the judicial appointment process, and that would become clear with an independent investigation?

May 7, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 2753 Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, it has been demonstrated that the member opposite is dealing with hearsay and innuendo. The minister did not meet with either of the individuals that he is referring to, and he did not speak with them. He did not meet with them. Based on that, we are supposed to have an independent inquiry by Ted Hughes. This is absol ute nonsense, and the member ought to know better than coming here and going on a wild goose chase based on innuendo and rumour.

Madam Speaker: The honourable Leader of the official opposition, on a new question. Mr. Doer: It is not innuendo and it is not rum our when the representative from the Bar Association accuses -who has been sitting-a representative of the government's nominating committee has gone public and accused the Minister of Justice of political interference. It is a major alle gation. It is not a rumour. It is a strong all egation from the head of the Bar Association. Further, Madam Speaker, we have other comments made from the Law Society that have similar words.

I would like to ask the Premier: why is he afraid to have an independent review? Why is he afraid to have the nominating committee, including the Chief Judge of Manitoba, review the process that took place from last Friday, Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday of this week that led to very prominent members of the government's own nominating committee accusing the government of political interference in the selection of judges here in the province of Manitoba? Mr.

Filmon: Madam Speaker, the member opposite knows that the individuals to whom he is referring have not spoken with the Minister of Justice, nor met with the Minister of Justice. Knowing that, how can he possibly make this al legation with any confidence? Unbelievable. Unbelieva ble. Provincial Court Act Judicial Appointment Process Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St.

Johns): To the Minister of Justice: would the minister, who now changes his line from what appears in the media this morning where he said he, that is the minister, contacted Webster, not the other way around like he just said this afternoon-he contacted Webster, the Chief Judge, and asked her if there were any qualified bil ingual candidates, and if so, would the committee, he asked, consider adding them to the list? He said he would recommend such a person to cabinet for an appointment.

When was he telling the truth, Madam Speaker, to the reporter yesterday or in the House now, or are they both lies, are they both ruses, I ask the minister? Some Honourabl e Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. I would ask that the honourable member for St. Johns withdraw the word "lies." It was made in direct reference to the Minister of Justice. Point of Order Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Madam Speaker, on a point of order. I think if you will review Hansard, you will see very cle arly that the statement made by the member for St.

Johns was in reference to statements, had no reference to any member of this Legisla tive Assembly; therefore, I ask you to take this matter under advisement and review Hansard in this regard. Madam Speaker: I will take the matter under advisement to peruse Hansard and the written record to see the context in which the member's words were spoken. * * * Hon.

Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): You know, here the member has specifically attributed words to me that are not in quote, and he specifically did that and misled this House by not even suggesting that those were not even my words, and they were not my words. I can indicate that the judge came as a chairperson of that committee to my office on Monday with the list. The list has never been rejected by this government. That process continues, and I have absolutely no faith in the abil ity of that member to communicate the accuracy of what occurred on that day. * (1 420)

2754 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 7, 19 98 Mr. Mackintosh: Madam Speaker, then I quote from a quote, his own quote in the Winnipeg Free Press this morning. He said, "I needed a French judge ... " He needed a French judge, not the Chief Judge of Manitoba. When was he tellin g the truth? Mr. Toews: We have in this province two provincial judges who are bil ingual French and Engl ish. One of those judges is going on a leave of absence. Another one of those judges is conducting a review of French la nguage services which we know will impact on our abil ity to deliver French language services in court.

The member would be the first to come to this House if we could not provide the adequate, constitutionally required French language services in a trial, and if that case was dismissed, I would get the blame. Yes, Madam Speaker, I need a French language judge and the people of Manitoba need a French language judge. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Time for Oral Questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Women of Distinction Awards Mrs. Shirley Render (St.

Vital): Madam Speaker, I am very pleased to have the opportunity today to pay tribute to the Women of Distinction honoured last night at the YM-YWCA Women of Distinction Awards Dinner. The winners of last night's awards were Tina Hil debrandt, who has over the past 30 years provided safe and loving foster care to 82 children; Dennice Leahey, senior vice-president and general manager of the Royal Bank of Manitoba, Northwestern Ontario and Nunavut.

Dennice Leahey has used her corporate lea dership to spearhead many projects benefiting the community, including aboriginal people, individuals with disabilities and women. The third winner, Mary Pankiw, is a former educator. She works to promote awareness and raise public perception of seniors' needs. Mary Scott is a leading advocate for women who has, since her retirement, pla yed a pivotal role in the formation of the United Nations Pl atform for Action Committee Manitoba and chairs the Information Technology Committee.

The final winner was Leslie Spil lett, a longtime proponent of aboriginal culture and cross-cult ural awareness issues. As general manager for the International Ladies' Garment Workers Union, she has worked tirelessly to ensure the workers' rights were respected as well as developing training programs such as Engl ish as a Second Language. A !so each year the Gerry Hammond Memorial A ward of Promise is given. This award was established to honour Gerry Hammond's many accomplish ments throughout a long and distinguished career in politics, vol unteerism and her ongoing support of women.

I am pleased to say that Arlene Kent, an honour student at Balm oral Hall, was the winner. So please join me, coll eagues, in wishing all of the winners and nominees continued success in their future endeavours. Canada Transp ortation Act Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, on July I, I 996, the federal government proclaimed the Canada Transportation Act. This act broke virtually every promise and statement the Liberals had made during the previous decade. On the issue of rail lines, subsidies were ended. Rail ways were given the right to abandon any line they wanted to without any public approval.

The major railways wasted no time in taking advantage of their new powers. The next day, notices were filed by CN in The Toronto Globe and Mail stating that the Sherridon lines, Cowan, Winnipegosis and Steep Rock lines in Manitoba would be put up for scrap or sale. A major fight was launched to save the Sherridon line. My col leagues, the members from Flin Flon, The Pas, Thompson and Rupertsland played a major role in the successful ef fort which resulted in OmniTRAX purchasing the Sherridon line and the Bay Line from The Pas north to Churchill.

Sadly, attempts to save the Cowan, Winnipegosis and Steep Rock lines have not been successful. CN has started to tear up the lines on the Steep Rock line. Attempts to negotiate a short lin e for Winnipegosis have failed, and the Cowan sub line that people are negotiating on is facing difficulties

May 7, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2755 because CN is maintaining crucial parts of the line that are necessary for short lines to operate. Now CN has given notice that they want to tear up the Irwood sub from north of Swan River to Birch River by July 6. This will have a major impl ication for farmers and producers in the area. Alr eady, Manitoba producers are paying heavily for the loss of the Crow rate benefit which was elimin ated by the Liberals. Unlike Saskatchewan, this Conservative government in Manitoba has been silent on rail line abandonment.

As a result, they have given CN and CPR the green light to go ahead despite the cost to producers and municipalities, and I urge this government to get their act together and start standing up for Manitobans. * (14 30) Economic Growth Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): Madam Speaker, I want to note to all members of this House two pieces of tremendous news reported in the newspapers this past week.

Firstly, thanks to our government's continuing commitment to the concept of living within one's means, balancing our budget and paying down our debt, the province of Manitoba has received an upgrade to its financial rating from Moody's Investors Service. Previously, Manitoba had been rated A- 1 stable, but prompted by our strong and diversified economy Moody's has rated Manitoba an A-1 positive. Secondly, as reported in today's Winnipeg Free Press, Manitoba has emerged as a growth leader in job creation, according to the chief economist at Nesbitt Bums.

The help-wanted index for our province rose to a Canada-wide high of 15 7 in April, up from 15 2 last month. As a result, our unemployment rate remains at 5.2 percent. Today, more Manitobans are working than ever before, and more individuals and businesses are recognizing Manitoba's economy for what it is: healthy and strong. This increasing recognition is resulting in more investment and more employment opportunities.

So I firmly believe that as we approach the new millen nium Manitobans will find that our government, through strong, progressive policies, has made our province the best place to live, to work, to invest and to raise a family. Thank you. Brandon General Hospital Mr.

Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Madam Speaker, I would like to make a sta tement with reference to the Brandon General Hospital, and not only the current crisis, but what has been happening over the last few years because I have seen, very sadly, a decline in the abil ity of Brandon General Hospital as a regional facil ity to offer the quality services that we all want to see it achieve and provide. We have a crisis developing tomorrow, and I appreciate the Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik) is concerned about it. He wants to do the right thing; I know that.

Nevertheless, this has been a situation that has been developing for well over a year. There has been a shortage of pediatricians. We have known that there was a need for four; we only had two. Then the two of course eventually withdrew their services for on call. So, as a result of the lack of that backup, the family doctors do not want to be involved in delivering children because they believe it is unsafe, according to their statement. I know that the government is making an effort to obtain pediatric services by advertising and so on, but the fact is tomorrow we have a crisis.

It looks, according to the minister, that we have some form of strike action, and it seems to me that it is incumbent on this government, on the minister, to do something. At least this is what the people who have contacted me want. They want some action. The expectant mothers do not understand this. They do not understand this. [interjection] Well, the member for Brandon West (Mr. McCrae) should talk to some of the people about their concerns.

Madam Speaker, beyond this-if I could concl ude-I am concerned about the loss of other specialis ts, the pending loss of other doctors, including obstetricians, who I understand may be leaving. Of course, there is trouble with equipment declining, and the building itself is in very bad shape. So it is very, very sad that the Brandon General Hospital, as a true important regional centre, has deteriorated to the extent that it has.

2756 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 7, 19 98 Judicial System-Independent Review Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, I want to just take the opportunity to follow up on a couple of Question Periods, where I posed to the Minister of Justice (Mr. Toews) questions with respect to the need for a judicial review. Earlier today in Question Period the Leader of the New Dem ocratic Party talked about the need for an operational review of the Crowns office.

I think that what we do need and what Manitobans need to see is some sort of an independent judicial review that takes a look at the different components of our judicial system. I respect the need for that judicial system and its independence, but I also believe very firmly that there needs to be a higher sense of public accountabili ty even for this independence with respect to the judicial review. So I stand up today just to suggest that, primarily because of the question that was being posed earlier about the operational review of the Crowns offi ce.

I think there is a much greater need, and that is an independent review of our judicial system. I think there are many different ways in which Manitobans could be better served by getting those that have the expertise to sit down, take a look at what the problems are that we are facing in courts procedurally-because perception is important. I think more and more Manitobans are losing confidence in our judicial system, and this is something which can restore that confidence, which would be to the benefit of all Manitobans. Thank you. ORDERS OF THE DAY (Continued) House Business Hon.

James McCrae (Government House Leader): I would seek the leave of the House to allow us to move to Bill 31 for a few moments, no more than three minutes, so that the honourable Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik) might introduce Bill 31 for second reading. Madam Speaker: Is there leave of the House to permit the honourable Minister of Health to give second reading to Bill 31? [agreed] SECOND READINGS Bi1131- The Regulated Health Professions Statutes Amendment Act Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Spea ker, I would move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Environment (Mr.

McCrae), that Bill 31, The Regulated Health Professions Statutes Amendment Act; Loi modifiant diverses lois sur les professions de Ia sante reglementees, be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mr. Praznik: The need for amendments to health professions legislation concerning confidential ity of information provisions was identified during the development of The Personal Health Information Act. Self -regulatory bodies are not included as trustees under the PHIA.

However, Madam Speaker, in the course of carrying out their responsibili ties as self-regulating bodies where they do come into the possession of information which may relate to the practitioner or to the indivi duals to whom a practitioner has provided a service, there is a need to safeguard that information. Currently eight of the acts have no confidentiality provisions, while others have a provision, but there is no consistency from act to act.

Bill 31 will amend 16 acts governing the regulation of health professionals to include a confidentiality provision with respect to information that may be obtained by a regulatory authority in the course of an audit or investigation. The provision will essentially be the same for each self-regulating body. In addition, the offence provisiOns for contravening these confidentiality requirements will be the same. The maximum fine for a breach of this provision is proposed to be set at $50,000, which is the same maximum as in The Personal Health Information Act.

These provisions are essentially the same as those contained in Bill 20, The Medical Amendment Act, and Bill 30. The Pharmaceutical Amendment Act, which I very recently introduced into this House. The bill, it is proposed, will provide for the repeal and replacement

May 7, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2757 of existing confidentiality provisions, and in cases where there is no existing provision, it will add such a provision. This proposed legislation will ensure that information which comes into the possession of self­ regulating bodies is protected, while at the same time allowing the body to disclose information in appropriate but limi ted and defined circumstances. I look forward to comments of members opposite on this particular piece of legislation. Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): I move, seconded by the member for Broadway (Mr. Santos), that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to. *

(1440) House Business Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I wish to obtain the unanimous consent of the House to vary the Estimates sequence established under subrule 71( 9) and tabled in this House on March 24, 19 98, when the Esti mates of the Department of Northern Affairs have been completed by setting aside the Estimates of the Department of Health to consider the Estimates of the Department of Industry, Trade and Tourism . Madam Sp eaker, this change would apply until further notice.

Madam Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House that when the Estimates of the Department of Northern and Native Affairs have been completed by setting aside the Estimates of the Department of Health to consider the Estimates of the Department ofl ndustry, Trade and Tourism until further notice? [agreed] As previously agreed, we will resume in Committee of Supply. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) FAMILY SERVICES Mr. Chairperson (Gerry McAlpine): Order, please. Will the Commit tee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon this

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Family Services. When the committee last sat, it had been considering item 9.4. Child and Family Services (

a) Child and Family Support, page 56 of the Estimates book. Shall this item pass? Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Do we have unanimous consent to go back to Community Living for a few minutes? Mr. Chairperson: Is there unanimous consent to revert to Community Living? Would the honourable member be able to indicate what line you want to revert to? Mr. Martindale: Would Adult Services be the right line? Mr. Chairperson: Okay, is there unanimous consent of the committee to revert to item 9.3 .(

b) Adult Services? [agreed] * (1 450) Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): I would like to thank the minis ter for agreeing to revert back. I gave her a copy of a Jetter that I received just this morning, although I note that it is dated April 8. I do not know why I just received it, but she may have just received it as well. It refers to a program that is called Network South Enterprises located in the honourable member for Osborne's (Ms. McGifford) riding, but the parents of the adult in question live in my riding.

I really am simply wanting to ask the minis ter if she would undertake to examine the issue carefully and as urgently as she can raised by Norman D. Magnusson of 6 Windemere Bay. Essentially they are saying that they value this program enormously because it provides a much higher quality of life for their dependent child, adult really, than would be available in a facility-based program. The program has a loss of about $70,000 a year, which the parents have tried to raise, but as she says in her letter: Currently our program serves 13 individuals,

2758 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 7, 19 98 which results in a net loss of $70,000 annually. We are engaged in fundraising, but we have not been able to come close to reaching this figure. The parents who are on our board are exhausted by their efforts. I have had, over the years, some experience with simi lar programs, and with the level of energy and effort that parents and advocates put into them and the degree of burnout that happens after some time, mainly from striving to close the gap between funding that is available from government and the true costs of the program.

I wonder if the minister could indicate whether any action has been taken to provide additional support to this specific program and whether she would be able to undertake to review the problems involved in this program and to see whether it is possible to find a way for the program to survive because obviously the parents and those involved in it benefit greatly from it. I do appreciate her agreeing to allow this to be raised in the Estimates today. Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): I thank my honourable friend for raising the issue here through the Estimates process.

Network South Enterprises Inc., I understand, is an of fshoot of Sturgeon Creek Enterprises, where they wanted to provide support to individuals in other parts of the city. I want to indicate that there has been a slight increase in their funding this year. It is a I percent increase, but, nonetheless, the letter does indicate an issue around a net loss of $70,000 in the program. I certainly will undertake to have staff meet with the individuals involved in the program and see what the issues are and whether there is any resolve that can be found. Mr.

Sale: I appreciate the min ister's response, and I am sure the family will be very grateful to be able to meet and to discuss how to ensure this program can survive and that the board and those supporting it do not bum out in the process. So I thank the minis ter. Mr. Chairperson: We will now revert to

Section 9.4. Child and Family Services (

a) Child and Family Support (

I) Child, Family and Community Development (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits, since the

section (

b) Adult Services had been passed previously. (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $2,899,800. Mr. Martindale: Mr. Chairperson, I think we were talking about hotels before we adjourned at noon and I had some questions about numbers, and maybe the minis ter has some statistics for us now. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, I think there is only one new person at the table, and that is Dale Robinson. He is respons ible for Agency Relations. The question, I think, that was asked before was the average number of children in hotels per night for the last few months. We do not have March's figures yet, but for February the average was 19 in hotels.

I think I had indicated earlier around 15 , but it was 19 actually in February, and the number in four-bed units was 58. Mr. Martindale: Mr. Chairperson, so it seems that there are fewer children in hotels. Actually according to the numbers, there are fewer children in hotels, but there are many more children in-well, not necessarily, there are many children in four-bed units. According to figures I have from a year ago February, the numbers are actually quite similar, but it concerns me that these children are still not in a foster home or have any kind of permanency.

So the problem remains the same, it just does not look as bad because they are not in hotels. I believe it was in either the Operational Review or the Environmental Sc an, perhaps in both, concerns were raised that now Child and Family Services was operating like a housing agency. I am wondering if any progress is being made in moving children out of these kinds of placements, which are certainly temporary and perhaps even emergency type placements, into some sort of permanency for these children. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr.

Chairperson, I think the first and foremost priority for the agency was to reduce the hotel placements, and as we can see by the numbers, they have made a signifi cant impact in reduction in those numbers. I do know that they have undertaken very proactively a foster home recruitment process, which appears to have been successful. My figures from last May, I guess, in the four-bed units were 66, down to 58 in February of 19 98, a slight decrease, but not a significant decrease.

May 7, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2759 I do not think you can fix a system that has been running a certain way overnight. I think they place their priorities in the right place on the hotel units, and there certainly is more work to do in trying to find solutions for the short-term placements in four-bed units. So I look forward, through their strategic planning and their foster parent recruitment process, to seeing those numbers continue to decline. *

(1500) Mr. Martindale: Mr. Chairperson, well, I am a little disappointed in the mini ster's answer because some of these documents are starting to get old now. For example, the Operational Review: Briefing to Executive Management that I have-well, first of all we have the Environmental Scan dated August 28, 19 96. Then we have the Operational Review: Briefing to Executive Management dated September 9, 19 96. We have an Operational Review: Final Report, dated March 26, 19 97, and yet the minister cannot give me concrete examples of what is being done in response to my question.

I suppose maybe no progress is being made in spite of the fact that some of these observations and comments and findin gs are quite pointed. For example, in the Operational Review dated March 26, 19 97, the executive

summary, one of the main findings says: No. 3, the foster care and emergency housing systems, including residential care, are failing and forcing the agency to rely on expensive alternatives such as hotels and residential care. So the minister has had over a year and the Winnipeg Child and Family Services has had over a year, and I would like to know what progress is being made on finding more appropriate alternatives for these children. Mrs. Mitchelson: I think we need to review the activities in the Winnipeg agency since the final report, which was received I guess on March 26, 19 97.

That was just over a year ago now, and there were several recommendations on strategies that needed to be undertaken. I think my honourable friend is aware that the CEO of the Winnipeg agency had indicated at the time of the Operational Review that he was retiring and they were in the process of recruitment of a new CEO for the Winnipeg agency. So that was the first priority, to get a new CEO in place, and I believe he was hired in August of 19 97.

Within a month, the steering committee met with the new CEO to identif y some of the main priority recommendations that needed to be acted on, and there was a joint process with the department and the agency that resulted in six priority areas to be looked at. Number one was the operating budget, and I have indicated that we have worked through the process of the budget and they have identified line by line where efficiencies might be found.

One of the other priority areas was review of the special rates, acquisition of computer hardware, emergency capacity, foster care resources and transfer of jurisdicti onal responsibility for the rural component. Those were the six areas of high-priority agreement that work needed to be done, and all of those areas are being looked at. I tend to disagree with my honourable friend when he says nothing has been done. If you look at numbers last year that indicate that an average daily occupancy of hotel beds was 48 and we were down to 19 in February, that is a signi ficant decrease. I do not call that no progress.

When I look at the active foster home recruitment activity that has been undertaken, I do not call that no action. I have indicated clearly that, you know, we have a system that needs significa nt improvement and signifi cant change and some refocus. I have to say that I think with the recruitment of a new CEO and sort of his learning curve and getting up to speed on what the issues are in the Winnipeg agency and what needs to be done that we are moving in the right direction. I have every confidence that we will see signifi cant improvements.

But you do not take a system that has been running in one direction for many, many years and think that you are going to have an overnight turnabout. I would love to see changes tomorrow that would see no kids in hotels and no kids that needed support through our child welfare agency. That is not reality, that is not going to happen, and it is not a system that you move overnight. I think we have to monitor year by year what progress we make and how we can work together. There are no easy answers in this business. I would not agree with

2760 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 7, 19 98 my honourable friend when he says there has been no improvement. I belie ve there has been. I believe we will continue to see changes in the system that will better manage our resources, will recruit new resources, and will look at new ways of delivering services. Mr. Martindale: I would like to go through some of the main findings, one at a time, because they raise many very serious concerns.

The first one says systemic and sustained increases in the number of children at risk, which are expected for the next I 0 to 15 years barring any change in the economic condition of aboriginal residents of the city. This is in reference to why costs are escalating. This finding ties in with other research that has been done. For example, another review looked at the risk factors that cause children to come into care and identified them as poverty, single-parent status and being aboriginal.

I have been told that if you look at socioeconomic data for inner city neighbourhoods, that if you know how many single parents there are, how many of them are aboriginal and their income, one can predict fairly accurately how many children are going to come into care. In several of these reports and in several places, it is pointed out to the government, not just to Winnipeg Child and Family Services-in fact, I would not be very critical of Winnipeg Child and Family Services. Their mandate is to provide protection for children.

There are a lot of external forces that they have no control over, such as the rate of poverty, such as children being more medically complex coming into care and fiscal restraints imposed by governments, both federal and provincial, and these reports point out that when there are contractions in service in the health system, in the education system and in family services through other parts of this department, it often means more pressure and even more children coming into care by Winnipeg Child and Family Services.

That is something that, as I said, the agency does not have a lot of control over, but this minister and this government do. * (1510 ) I am wondering ift he minister understands and if she is encouraging her government and her cabinet colleagues to stop withdrawing resources to children, so that more children do not come into care, or to replace those resources so that fewer children come into care. I wonder if the min ister understands these recommendations and observations and their implications for her department, her government. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr.

Chairperson, I do not think that any of the comments or many of the comments that my honourable friend has put on the record certainly are fair comment. I do not think anyone disagrees that the whole issue of an urban aboriginal strategy that goes above and beyond Child and Family Services is due. That is exactly what my colleague the Minis ter of Native Affairs (Mr. Newman) has been working on, and I think very shortly we are going to see the results of the committee that was struck to look at an urban aboriginal strategy.

We are going to see the results of that report and the recommendations that will be made to address some of the issues that have been identified. So we are very aware of the need to have a co­ ordinated strategy around aboriginal issues in Winnipeg. I do want to indicate that we have not been standing still. We know the statistics.

There are many reports that have indicated the statistics about the large numbers of aboriginal people who are coming to the city of Winnipeg, the large numbers of aboriginal people who live in poverty, the large number of aboriginal young single parents there are who may need the supports or the use of our child welfare system. We do know that 70 percent of the children in care in the city of Winnipeg are aboriginal, and yet they certainly are not 70 percent of the population in the city of Winnipeg.

So it is a signi ficant issue, and it is not an issue that we can address in isolation of the aboriginal community. That is why we have just announced and set UJr-and it was as a result of the consultations around The Child and Family Services Act and recommendations that we look at an urban aboriginal child welfare strategy that a committee has been struck involving the Winnipeg agency and, of course, my department, along with the Manitoba Metis Federation,

May 7, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 276 1 the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs, the urban Aboriginal Council, Ma Mawi, the Social Planning Council, the Child and Youth Secretariat and the Native Affairs Secretariat. That committee has been struck to look at what some of the options might be in dealing with aboriginal child welfare in the city of Winnipeg. I must say to you on a personal note, and these are my personal feelings, that the solutions are going to be found in conjunction with the aboriginal community but specifically with aboriginal women.

I honestly believe that they are the people who are going to help us find the solutions to some of the issues, not only dealing with child welfare but with issues around families and aboriginal famili es in Winnipeg. There is a strength that is developing, and it cannot be an us-and-them solution unless we work together.

I am committed and prepared to work as aggressively as possible with aboriginal people, but specifically with aboriginal women, because I believe that in the traditional aboriginal culture that women do have very much a responsibil ity for family issues and family matters, and they are going to be the ones that are going to help us find those solutions. I know they are, so I am prepared and committed. And the issues are different in Winnipeg.

You know, a lot of aboriginal people that are in Winnipeg have left the reserve for a very number of reasons, and some of them are as a result of some of the untenable situations on reserves that have brought them to Winnipeg. You know, the community is different, the culture is dif ferent, but the reality is they do not necessarily want their home bands to be making the decisions on what their personal solutions are as they have moved and made Winnipeg their home. So I know that from personal dialogue with many individuals, and I am committed to find a solution.

No easy answers to this one, but we have to find the answers and the right answers. You know, I would say to my honourable friend, this is not about politics in any way, this is about all of us putting our heads together and making suggestions and giving us concrete ideas on how we find solutions in this area. So I believe that when we see 70 percent of the children in care in our Winnipeg agency that we need more appropriate, trained aboriginal people working to find the solutions in the system.

I am not sure what the answer will be, and I am not sure that a separate aboriginal agency is the right answer in Winnipeg either. I am not convinced, because agaih I do not know how you would ever set that up and how you would ever manage that and where the first place of referral would be, but I am interested in hearing what those that are involved in the committee have to say and how we can move forward from here. So that committee is working, and hopefully we will get some recommendations on how to address some of the issues.

But I do know that there are some positive things happening in some of the programming that is taking place, and I know a lot of it is community driven and neighbour driven, and both the federal government and provincial governments are putting resources into some of that programming. I know aboriginal head start programs have been quite successful in some instances. I do know that the new programs that we are announcing right now, the BabyFirst and the Earlystart programs, I know my honourable friend has some familiarity with north-end min istries where one of our BabyFirst projects is running.

Although it is not absolutely, completely aboriginal focused, I think it will meet the needs of a lot of aboriginal families in that neighbourhood, in that community. So that is one program that we have introduced. Another one, of course, is the Earlystart program, and that is working with children to get them from the ages of two to five to prepare them for school. I know that many of those projects are run through child care centres, many in areas where there is a high aboriginal concentration population. I believe that they will be very positive programs.

These are working with families and mentors and child care providers who have some experience and expertise in early childhood development, but it is also bringing the parents into the programming, so we are hopeful that some of these early intervention strategies will have a positive impact.

It is not going to deal with the kids that are necessarily in the system or entrenched in the system today, but hopefully it is going to have some impact in the future on chi ldren coming into the child welfare system and hopefully prevent the need for some of the intervention that needs to be provided through child welfare, because we get to them and create healthier families before they get to that point.

2762 LEGI SLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA May 7, 19 98 * (1 520) We also know, too, and I will be making an announcement very shortly on adolescent pregnancy. We have talked about fetal alcohol syndrome and Stop F AS, the program that was announced, and I think very positively received by the whole community that will try to prevent the birth of a fetal alcohol child. We know that very often those children create signif icant problems in our education system and need the services in a significant way from our child welfare system.

So if we can stop those kinds of births from happening and try to ensure that children are born healthy, you know, all of these things that do not have an impact right today on the system as it exists, but we hope that they will have a positive impact on what happens and what comes into the system into the future. Mr.

Mervin Tweed, Ac ting Chairperson, in the Chair I will be shortly making an announcement around adolescent pregnancy, and also an announcement around nutrition programming, so these are all initiatives that we know, and based on research, should have a signifi cant impact on healthier, better-adjusted families and less need for child welfare in the future. Unless we put our money in at that level, at that entry point, we are going to continue to see the growing need for more resources in our child welfare system. There is no easy answer, and there is no quick-fix solution to this.

I have made a commitment to work with the aboriginal community in Winnipeg to see where the solutions are, and we are including very much the community organizations that deal in areas where there is a high concentration of aboriginal people in Winnipeg to see where the answers are. When the community identifies the need, I think it is our responsibil ity to be there to support with programming dollars the activities that they believe will make a difference. Mr.

Martindale: Since the mini ster is supportive of leadership by aboriginal women, perhaps she would like to go to two dinners tonight and attend the fundraising dinner called Seven Homes for Seven Families at the friendship centre. However, I think the minister probably has another commitment tonight. Mrs. Mitchelson: If I could just respond to that, we, through the department, have got a table, and staff will be attending. I would have loved to have been there.

There are several conflicts tonight, but, anyway, we are supporting and we will be interested in hearing any suggestions or ideas that come forward in dialogue. Mr. Martindale: Then we both hope they have a successful dinner tonight. It is good to see both parties supporting this fundraising effort. The minister tries to imply that these solutions are not about politics. I think that was the expression that she used: it is not about politics. However, everything is political in this building, and budgets are about political choices.

While the minister's rhetoric is nice and fine, talking about all the good things that her department, her government is doing for aboriginal people, at the same time, her government is cutting funding to students to make it much, much harder, impossible for most, to go to the Winnipeg Education Centre, an affirmative action post-secondary university education program, cut funding to access programs, cut funding to New Careers. So there are many choices that this government has already made that adversely affect aboriginal people. In her own department there used to be a SOSAR program. It is gone.

So people on social assistance, single parents can no longer be funded to attend university. The minister wants to brag about their urban aboriginal strategy, but it took 10 years of being in government and it still is not announced. We still do not know what their urban aboriginal strategy is yet. So this government has a long way to go when it comes to dealing fairly with aboriginal people in Winnipeg and in Manitoba. It involves far more departments than just aboriginal and Northern Affairs. For example, the second main finding in the executive

summary says: as key institutions in the education, health, and social services sector retreat to their core mandates because of fewer options and increasing demand, Winnipeg Child and Family Services finds itself with less scope to assist children. So it is going to require the co-operation of all departments to see that the lives of children are

May 7, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 2763 enhanced so that fewer children come into care, because we know, as these reports tell us, that when you cut funding in Health and Education and other departments and in Income Assistance, it has an impact on the caseload for Winnipeg Child and Family Services, which is one of the reasons for their budget going up every year, because these main findings all relate to the reasons that costs have escalated.

So I wonder if the minister understands, and what is she doing to see that there are not cuts by other government departments that adversely affect her department, especially funding for Winnipeg Child and Family Services, which, as these reports point out, causes their costs to go up? For example, in the original report, it also says on page 34: changes in one element of the human service sector have immediate and direct consequences for other elements. For example, a reduced scope in the health care system has a profound effect on the child welfare system.

We know that there are effects from government cutbacks in other departments on this department and on Winnipeg Child and Family Services. I do not have the Post! report on children in front of me today, but this minis ter is quite familiar with it, because I have quoted from it, and it talks about poverty, child poverty, and makes recommendations that the funding level actually be increased for food allowances for children.

I am just going by memory, and I would be quite happy to get the Post! report during the break, because it is a government report and it has excellent recommendations and we are still waiting for this government to implement some of them. Dr. Post! and many people in the community, myself included, believe that, if some of these things were implemented, it would have a positive effect on children in Manitoba and in Winnip eg, but I am not convinced that this minister understands that. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr.

Chairperson, I am really glad my honou rable friend has raised the Post! report because I just received an update from the Child and Youth Secretariat on how we are doing on implementation of recommendations from the Post! report, and I think my honourable friend might be very pleasantly surprised to see how those recommendations and the implementation of those look. I know it is up on my desk, and we can have a discussion here or we can have a discussion under the Estimates of the Child and Youth Secretariat, but quite frankly, I think we have made significa nt process on that report.

I do want to correct on the record, before I get into any other further comments, that the SASAR program is-[ interjection] The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Tweed): Do we want to put this through the Chair and perhaps put it on the record? Mr. Martindale: Mr. Chairperson, referring to these programs with acronyms is difficult sometimes. I thought there were two. One was SOSAR and one was SASAR.

My understanding was that SOSAR was for single parents to fund their post-secondary education, and I can remember fighting on behalf of some individ uals who were studying; one, I remember, a student from The Maples who was studying nursing, and we had to fight to get her funding grandf athered because the program was terminated. I fought successfully on her behalf to get her funding continued so that she could continue to attend university. It was my understanding that that is no longer true, that single parents on social assistance cannot get university education funded anymore.

If I am wrong, I would be happy to be corrected. * (1530 ) The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Tweed): Just for the Chair's clarification, what did you perceive SESAR to be? [interjection] Okay, so you are not aware of that program? Mr. Martindale: No. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Tweed): Okay. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, I would just like to correct for the record that there are presently some 93 income assistance clients currently participating in the SASAR program, which is a program for Study Assistance for Social Allowance Recipients.

So we have had 35 new clients enter the program since August of 1997, and we have had students access the Access

2764 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 7, 19 98 program since August to pursue career options and opportunities too. So I am not sure, I think what I am doing is correcting the record and indicating to my honourable friend that these programs have not been discontinued. Mr. Martindale: Mr. Chairperson, I am happy to be corrected. This has to be one of the best-kept secrets in government, but we will make sure that it is publicized and you will get lots of applicants. I will put it in my householder the next time, and we will see what happens.

I guess I would like to repeat my original question: does the minis ter understand these recommendations and observations in these reports about the eff ects of government cutbacks on the caseload in Winnipeg Child and Family Services? Mrs. Mitchelson: Well, I think, I just want to indicate that we are not a government that is standing still. I mean, many of the training opportunities for single parents certainly involve single parents, many of whom might be aboriginal. If you just look to the Taking Charge! program, I think you will probably see a lot of aboriginal women accessing that kind of program.

We have more money for training opportunities on a year­ by-year basis. So there is not restriction. A lot of our training opportunities-and I make no apologies for this-are focused on where employment opportunities exist. We no longer do training for the sake of training, but training very much with a focus to employment orientation. Again, I say that I think that is the best use of our tax resources when, in fact, we can see people moving off the cycle of poverty on welfare into paying jobs that increase their income and provide a better life for their children.

I no longer-and one of the reasons that we changed our policy on single parents and tried to ensure that we considered single parents whose children are six years old or in school full time as employable was that we did not ever want to leave the impression that a life of poverty on welfare was all the expectation we had for single parents. We wanted them to know that we cared enough to try to put in place some options and opportunities for them to move off of welfare and into the workf orce.

We know that it is certainly a much more positive alternative to the cycle of welfare and the commitment to a life of poverty that existed with the old policy. So I am extremely confident, based on the economic activity and the number of new jobs that are available in the province of Manitoba that we will be able to work with more individuals to try to help them develop their personal job plans, the direction they want to go. and then put the supports in place to make that happen.

I can only just again state some of the things we have done as a result of our redirection of dollars through the National Child Benefit, and that is, you know, another $5 milli on into the child care system to ensure that people that are in training or moving into the workforce have the opportunity to access quality, affordable child care so that they can work and they can train and they can upgrade themselves. Mr.

Chairperson in the Chair I know that through Taking Charge! we have seen, once the program got up and running, significa nt numbers of indivi duals who are now moving into the workforce through that program. Training and Education has, and I cannot get into their specific programs here, I think it would be more appropriate to ask the Minister of Education (Mrs. Mcintosh), but I know that we have allocated on a year-by-year basis more money into making welfare-work initiatives, where we have partnered with the private sector.

So I believe that we are doing some very positive things to help break the cycle of poverty and give people the ability to work, to feel good about themselves, to be positive role models for their children and ultimately to try to ensure that the opportunities are there. We are working with people to focus on what their job plans and what their life plans might be. I know we are moving in the right direction.

My honourable friend may not think it is fast enough, but we also do know that when you have a policy that commits people to a life of poverty on welfare and you change direction and change focus and look at the supports that need to be put in place on an indiv idual basis for people, you do not work miracles overnight. In fact, we are putting the supports in place. We are working with individual women, and it is a one-on-one type of situation. We do know that our single-parent

May 7, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2765 caseloads have dropped considerably, about 1, 800, I think, since May of 19 96 when we implemented Employment First and welfare reform, that are now of f of welfare and into the workforce. We know significantly more individuals are claiming some earned income than ever have in the past. I think it is up by about 40 percent. So people are moving even if they do need some support from social assistance, are obtaining some income earnings, which I think is positive, is a move in the right direction.

But you have to think for every single parent that moves of f of welfare and into the workforce that the lives of at least one child, for every one of those single parents, has improved considerably, and in many instances it is significantly more than one child. So not only are you impacting the lives of the individu als who are working, but you are having a positive impact on the lives of their children.

So we will continue to work in that direction, and we will continue to ensure that if moms are at home with children under the age of six that we are putting the support programs in place, the early intervention programs like the BabyFirst and the Earlystart. I know that the federal government, through the Healthy Start for Mom and Me program that they implemented through CAPC, is working with parents.

The key for us in the whole child welfare system is to try to ensure that we do not work with kids in isolation of the families that surround them but that we bring parents into the picture and make sure that the positive things that are happening with children when we take them outside of the home into child care facilities or whatever are being translated into positive supports in the hours when they are not getting that formal instruction. * (1 540) Parental involvement is critical and all of the programs that we are looking at do have parental involvement.

They also do all have a nutritional component, whether it be learning how to prepare and serve nutritious meals, whether it be in the BabyFirst program, the whole issue of lactation and breastfeeding as a positive option for parents with their children to get their children off to a good nutritional start. There are components of that in all of the programs we are looking at on the early intervention side. Our focus is a positive, wellness focus.

Hopefully, as we measure the outcomes of the programs, we will determine, because we know that the programs that we are implementing have had a Jot of research behind them and we have seen them work successfully in other jurisdictions. When the Earlystart program is taken from the Hawaii Healthy Start program, which has had great success, when outcomes have been measured in the health status and the wellness status of children who enter the school system as a result of that program-oh, pardon me, the BabyFirst program is the Hawaii Healthy Start. No? Earlystart.

I sometimes get my Baby First and Earlystart programs mixed up. Yes, the Earlystart program is the Perry preschool program that I think we all had an opportunity to hear about, and the Baby First is the Hawaii Healthy Start model. Those are tried and proven programs that should have a signi ficant impact on our ability to prevent before we have the need for the child welfare system. So small starts, but certainly steps in the right direction. Mr. Martindale: Mr.

Chairperson, I now have The Health of Manitoba's Chi ldren, known as the Postl report in front of me, and I would be interested in knowing if the minister knows how many of the 11 6 recommendations her government has implemented, and I am quite sure that No. 32, that food allowance within the social assistance programs be increased to allow for adequate nutrition of infants as reflected in formula costs, has not been implemented; No. 42, that food supplements be considered for prenatal women who are living in poverty as a means of reducing the incidence of low-birthweight babies; and No. 46, that the food support within the welfare system be adequate to support childhood needs.

As far as I know, none of those recommendations have been acted on by this government. Is that correct? Mrs. Mitchelson: I have a report that was compiled by the Chi ldren and Youth Secret ariat that indicates that we have implemented, or implemented and ongoing, 75

2766 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA May ?, 19 98 of the recommendations, 21 are in process, 18 are being worked on in specific departments and another one under consideration. There is one that there has been no action taken on, and that is to do with the Child Protection Centre, and I think there are still some outstanding issues that need to be resolved. As far as the rest go, I can go through one by one the recommendations now, if my honourable friend would like, and indicate to him what the status is of each one. Mr. Martindale: I would like to move on to No. 3.

The minis ter did not answer my question because the ones that I named in the Post! report have not been implemented and they are within her department. Number three of the executive

summary- Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, those that have been referred to my department are probably under consideration or in process and will have to await the final results of the response to the recommendation through announcements that may be upcoming. Mr. Martindale: People on social assistance will be - pleased if those recommendations are implemented. Of course, we are expecting lots of pre-election good-news announcements as this government spends money to get re-elected.

These recommendations have been out since March 19 95 and so, you know, within a year of an election, they are going to be implemented even though they are three and probably by the next election four years old or maybe even four and a half years old. Going back to the main findings, the Operational Review, No. 3 says the foster care and emergency housing systems, including residential care, are failing and forcing the agency to rely on expensive alternatives such as hotels and residential care.

We already discussed this a little bit, but this issue really ties in with concerns about foster care and especially foster care rates, and there are observations about this in these reports saying that one of the reasons that Winnipeg Child and Family Services has difficulty getting foster homes is because of cuts in rates, and so I would like to know what this minis ter and her government are planning to do to address the shortage of foster homes. Mrs.

Mitchelson: You know, the issue of foster rates, I think, is an issue my honourable friend raises without true knowledge or understanding of exactly what happens. Yes, there is the basic rate and one can argue whether the basic rate is adequate or not adequate, but I think the thing he is failing to recognize is the issue that most of the children that are in hotels awaiting placement would be children with special needs that would get certainly special rates.

I do know that special rates go anywhere from-[interjection] You know, the average rate for foster placement in the city of Winnipeg is $44.85, and I want to indicate to my honourable friend that those are tax-free dollars also. So they are not dollars that are taxed in any way.

I know that rates go up to $80 a day or more for signifi cantly high-need indivi duals, so you are looking at specialized foster parents that can deal with the kinds of issues that might be needed to support those kinds of children that might be waiting for placement in hotel accommodations or in some of the other short-term placement areas. So I am not sure that, when he raises the issue of foster rates and the lack of ability to recruit foster parents, that he is really speaking about the true issues that need to be addressed.

When we talk about recruiting foster parents, they are foster parents in many instances that would need some special qualities or qualif ications to deal with children with higher needs. So I just do not want him to ever leave on the record that we do not pay when there is a requirement for a special rate, additional support to foster parents. Mr. Martindale: These reports refer to a number of problems, including with special rates, for example, No. 9 says many activities such as foster care and special rate determination are fragmented across the four service areas.

Another problem is that Winnipeg Child and Family Services often recruits foster parents, trains them and places children with them and they get experience, and then when they find out that if they contracted with Marymound or Macdonald Youth Services as specialized foster homes or treatment foster homes, they can get a much higher per diem, so Winnipeg Child and Family Services loses these foster homes to these other agencies. I am wondering what this minister is willing to do about that problem. It seems to me that those kinds of rates should be available in Winnipeg Child and Family

May 7, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2767 Services so that they can keep their homes in their system, or at least keep these foster parents and not lose them to other nonprofit organizations that have the specialized or treatment foster homes with the much higher rates. * (1 550) Mrs. Mitchelson: That was an issue that was identified in the report, certainly an issue that we have been dealing with Winnipeg agency on trying to ensure that there are standard rates and uniformity right across the city.

We should not be treating foster parents in one area of the city differently from others, but that is an issue that the agency must address. We are working with them to address that and also the Winnipeg agency is meeting with the treatment centres to try to deal with the issue and work things out so there is some consistency. It is not resolved yet, but certainly there are discussions ongoing to try to resolve the issue. Mr. Martindale: "Discussions" sounds rather vague. I wonder if the minister can give me more detail. What is it that is being discussed?

Are you hoping to allow Winnipeg Child and Family Services foster parents to become treatment foster homes if they meet the criteria? Mrs. Mitchelson: I am informed that the executive director or the CEO of Winnipeg Child and Family has met individually with the treatment facilities and he is meeting collectively with them and we are working with them. There is not a resolve to the issue but the ultimate end result will be to have some sense of consistency throughout the system on specialized foster rates. I cannot say anything more than that except the meetings are ongoing.

It was not like there was one meeting and it is finished. This is a process that will take some time to resolve but, in fact, it is an issue that is on the table for discussion and the ultimate end result would be to have a uniformity across the system for special foster rates for all children. Mr. Martindale: Just for clarification, does uniformity across the system mean that Winnipeg Child and Family Services will be allowed to have foster homes that are treatment foster homes or special rate foster homes? Mrs. Mitchelson: I am informed that they do now and that will be maintained. Mr.

Martindale: Well, I am a little perplexed then. You know, I have heard these complaints from staff­ actually recruiting staff-in Winnipeg Child and Family who are looking for foster homes, and their complaint is they are losing these foster parents to Marymound and Macdonald Youth Services and the reason seems to be the daily rate. Now, I understand there is currently a difference in what is being provided, and having talked to staff at Marymound and Macdonald Youth Services, I know that they are providing a different kind of service.

They are providing treatment foster homes and, you know, it is my understanding that those foster parents have different qualifi cations, different standards, but why can we not allow Winnipeg Child and Family Services to provide those kinds of homes, as well, so they do not lose foster parents to the other organizations? Mrs. Mitchelson: I guess it is an issue that the new CEO at the agency certainly has identified, and there are ongoing negotiations and discussions.

I am not sure I can say anything more than that at this point except that he wants to try to ensure that there is some sort of uniformity throughout the system, so we do not have to worry about people moving back and forth from the agency to treatment facilities, that if, in fact, there is a need for a certain level of care, whether it be agency provided or residential treatment, whether it is through the residential treatment system or through the Child and Family Services system, there is some sort of standard support for foster parents that require that level of training or expertise to deal with children.

So it is not something that has been resolved, but it certainly is something that the CEO of the Winnipeg agency is working through with the residential treatment facilities. Mr. Martindale: Well, I guess we will look for announcements again. The minis ter will be interested to know that I got taken to task by a foster parent who said that we should not continually talk about money,

2768 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 7, 19 98 that they are not being foster parents just for the money, they are doing it because they love children. I think it is a point well taken, but if you look at these reviews and if you look at what they are saying, over and over again we hear that agencies are having trouble finding foster parents. They say that one of the reasons is the need for adequate rates so that parents will stay home and foster. The cuts have been in the basic rate.

I do not hear complaints about people who are-well, I hear some complaints, but I do not hear complaints about people who are getting rates that are near the top of the scale. We also have heard this from the Children's Advocate, who in his 19 93 recommendations recommended to the minister that rates be restored that were cut by 11 percent and there were cuts in 19 94, several of them.

In 19 95, there was a 6 percent rollback for special needs children in foster care, so I am wondering if the minister is wiilin g to look at the rates and see if there is not a relationship between the rates and the wiilin gness of people to foster because that is what we are being told, that is what these reports are saying, and I am interested in knowing what the minister is willing to do about it. *( 16 00) In fact, I believe it is in the executive

summary of the operation al scan, it says the recruitment training and retention of foster care is seriously troubled. Winnipeg Child and Family Services is experiencing difficu lty in securing sufficient foster care within the city and relies extensively on foster homes in rural Manitoba. So we are seeing it in these reviews, we are hearing it from people in recruitment, we are hearing it from the agency, we are hearing it from parents. What is the minister going to do to encourage more foster homes so that we have fewer children in hotels and fewer children in four-bed units?

Obviously there is a relationship here. Mrs. Mitchelson: I hear my honourable friend's comments, but I do want to indicate that I have had the opportunity to have discussions with indivi dual foster parents throughout our community too, and the biggest concern I hear from foster parents is the whole issue of training and connection.

It is certainly an issue that I have raised with the new CEO of the Winnipeg agency, where they believe there is not a strong enough network between foster parents to understand the issues of the children that they are dealing with and the unique circumstances that do arise from time to time. So I think part of the overall strategy at the agency in the recruitment of foster parents is looking too at how training needs to be done in a more signifi cant way and how we start to connect and recognize foster parents for the valuable contribution that they make.

I know that one specific foster parent that I have spoken to on many, many occasions talks about-and here, you know, sometimes I look at British Columbia and I raise the issue of British Columbia with my honourable friend, but she is a foster parent that did foster in Br itish Columbia before they moved to Winnipeg. She was telling me about the connection of foster parents to foster parents and how the agency-and, I guess, it would be a government agency in British Columb ia-made sure that they did foster parent recognition and brought foster parents together on a monthly basis.

They did training sessions, and they also recognized specific foster parents for the contributions that they had made. It was an informal process, but something that she felt was extremely valuable and was wondering whether-and she has felt really isolated since she has moved to Manitoba to foster. I have raised this with the CEO at the agency. I think, as part of their foster parent recruitment strategy and their dealing with foster parents, they are starting that kind of activity here.

I know that Lance Barber was really open and really receptive to taking a look at that issue around the training, around how you bring people together and share the positive experiences that fostering brings into a family and into a community. So we have learned something, I think, from someone that has moved from a system in one province that works better than what is happening here. Her complaint has never been the financial resources that she receives but the connection and the training and the opportunities for training.

We do-a few years back gave 50 cents per day per child in care to the agencies to provide that training. I think what we want to do is ensure that the foster parents do have some connection and do feel that they are valued in our community and in our society.

May 7, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 2769 So those are some of the things that are happening and that hopefully we will see take place in our Winnipeg agency. I know that rural Manitoba-and we have not even talked about the northeast piece yet of the Winnipeg agency and what might happen there, but I know that they do depend a lot on the rural communities that are part of the Winnipeg agency for foster placements.

One of the recommendations in the Operational Review was to look at some sort of a central inventory of foster homes right throughout the province so that you did not have one agency with vacant foster homes and foster parents hoarding them in case they needed them where another area or another agency had real need and there were not enough foster parents. So those kinds of things need to happen. I know that we are working away at the recommendations that were made to see whether some of them can be implemented, what makes sense and how we can have a better system.

I also do know that the agency certainly has focused in Winnipeg on recruitment of foster homes, and hopefully we will have, as time goes by, more and more homes available to us. I know that we have attempted to work with Ma Mawi. I know the Manitoba Metis Federation has raised the issue of training and recruitment of Metis foster families. We will be working through the committee that we have set up in Winnipeg to see whether there is the ability to recruit and train foster parents in the aboriginal community, so we have culturally appropriate homes. Mr.

Chairperson, those things are all in progress at some stage or another, but the discussion, the dialogue is happening, and, again, no easy undertaking, but it is a direction we have to move. Mr. Chairperson: Is there agreement for the committee to take a five-minute recess? [agreed] We will resume proceedings at 10 after four. The comm ittee recessed at 4:08 p.m. After Recess The comm ittee resumed at 4:19p .m. Mr. Chairperson: Would the committee please come to order. When the committee recessed, we were on line 9.4. Child and Family Services (

a) Child and Family Support

(1) Child, Family and Community Development (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits. Mr. Martindale: Mr. Chairperson, I really do not know how this minister has the nerve to talk about foster parents feeling isolated and not supported when it was her government in 19 93 that cut the grant to the Manitoba Foster Parent Association. Ever since then, we have been hearing that foster parent feels isolated and unsupported. It is really strange to hear this minister five years later talking about foster parents feeling iso lated and unsupported when it was her own government that cut the grant to an organization that did try and provide support to them.

I am wondering if the minis ter is willing to help a new organization to get organized that could provide support to foster parents. *

(1620) Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, it might be interesting information for my honourable friend to note that the foster parent that I talked to that moved here from British Columbia indicated that there was no formal foster parent association that received any government grant in British Columbia to support ongoing operations, but it was, in fact, the agencies that-and, I guess it is a central agency in British Columbia; they do not have mandated agencies under their legislation. Do they or do they? [inteljection] It is partial.

But interesting to note that there was not any government grant or support to a formal organization or structure, but there was more connection in British Columbia than there is here. So I just wanted to put that information on the record, and she felt that there was no necessity to support that formal structure. I think that in discussions with the CEO in the Winnipeg agency, he believes they can play a signi ficant role in supporting foster parents through the grant that we give them, the 50 cents per day per child in care for training and support for foster parents. Mr. Martindale: Mr.

Chairperson, the Operational Review on page 111 , in addition to saying that the

2770 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 7, 19 98 foster care system is in crisis and that foster parents are receiving poor support, says that there is a need for a program of subsidized adoption because, as they say, a foster parent who cares for a high-needs child stops receiving financial support on adoption. This is a powerful disincentive to the adoption of children who cost well above basic rates. Is this something that the government is willing to consider? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, we heard about the issue of subsidized adoption and some recommendations to the Zuefle report, too.

Through our new adoption legislation, there is provision for financial support for adoptive parents. It was there under the old legislation, too, but it certainly was not a well-used piece of the legis lation, and we are certainly encouraging that kind of activity and the financial support. I guess I have always had a bit of a hangup on the word "subsidized" adoption, because I do not think we ever want to say that we are going to pay people to adopt children.

But if there are special needs required by children as a result of additional medical needs or special educational needs or additional supports rather than the normal supports that you would provide to your own child or an adoptive child, there is provision in the act. I guess it was not a well-used piece of legislation, but we are encouraging that to happen to enhance the ability for some children with higher needs to be adopted. So it is there. The provision is there, and we are encouraging its use. Mr. Martindale: Mr.

Chairperson, moving on to another topic since we are running out of time for this section, could the minister tell me if there have been any meetings in recent months or even in recent years to discuss the establishment of a mandated aboriginal child welfare agency, and if so, what were the results of those discussions and what is your government's position? Mrs.

Mitchelson: That has been a recommendation that has been made from time to time in different reports, and that is the sole purpose of the committee that I talked about a little earlier that has been set up with the MMF, the AMC, the Aboriginal Council of Winnip eg, the Social Planning Council, Child and Youth Secretariat, the Child and Family Services agency in Winnipeg, my department and Ma Mawi. It is to look at exactly that issue and make recommendations on how to deal in the most appropriate fashion with aboriginal people in Winnipeg needing access to the child welfare system.

I am not sure what the results of that dialogue and discussion will be. We have had three meetings already of that committee and the fourth is scheduled for next week. I will await their recommendations on what they believe needs to happen in Winnipeg. Mr.

Martindale: In the absence of a mandated agency or in the meantime until one gets established-if that eventually happens-is the minis ter interested in providing more resources to existing agencies, such as Ma Mawi, who are providing nonmandated services, but there is always the possibility of giving an existing agency more responsibil ity or more funding for doing some of the things that they are already doing? Mrs.

Mitchelson: We are always interested in looking to provide better services for families, and one way that we have helped to support Ma Mawi is through the family group conferencing process, the announcement that we made for Ma Mawi as the lead organization in pulling together members of the community, the professionals and family members to look at how we can better meet the needs of individual family members in conjunction-it is the one at Gi lbert Park.

Ma Mawi is the lead with the Gi lbert Park housing association, Nor'West Co-op, the police service, the Child and Family Services agency, I guess public health through Nor'West. I think those are the partners that are involved, and Ma Mawi has the lead o