British Columbia Hansard — Tuesday, March 11, 2008

H0311pm-06

British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)

Fourth Session, 38th Parliament OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY (HANSARD) Tuesday, March 11, 2008 Afternoon Sitting Volume 28, Number 6 THE HONOURABLE BILL BARISOFF, SPEAKER ISSN 0709-1281

PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871) LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR His Honour the Honourable Steven L. Point, OBC FOURTH SESSION, 38TH PARLIAMENT SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Bill Barisoff EXECUTIVE COUNCIL Premier and President of the Executive Council ............................................................................................................Hon. Gordon Campbell Minister of State for Intergovernmental Relations .......................................................................................................... Hon.

John van Dongen Deputy Premier and Minister of Education and Minister Responsible for Early Learning and Literacy...................... Hon. Shirley Bond Minister of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation ........................................................................................................ Hon. Michael de Jong Minister of Advanced Education and Minister Responsible for Research and Technology ........................................... Hon.

Murray Coell Minister of Agriculture and Lands.......................................................................................................................................................Hon. Pat Bell Attorney General and Minister Responsible for Multiculturalism............................................................................... Hon. Wally Oppal, QC Minister of Children and Family Development ................................................................................................................Hon.

Tom Christensen Minister of State for Childcare ........................................................................................................................................................Hon. Linda Reid Minister of Community Services and Minister Responsible for Seniors’ and Women’s Issues........................................... Hon. Ida Chong Minister of Economic Development and Minister Responsible for the Asia-Pacific Initiative and the Olympics.................Hon.

Colin Hansen Minister of Employment and Income Assistance ...........................................................................................................Hon. Claude Richmond Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources .......................................................................................................Hon. Richard Neufeld Minister of State for Mining......................................................................................................................................................Hon.

Kevin Krueger Minister of Environment and Minister Responsible for Water Stewardship and Sustainable Communities ...............Hon. Barry Penner Minister of Finance.......................................................................................................................................................................Hon. Carole Taylor Minister of Forests and Range and Minister Responsible for Housing ............................................................................. Hon.

Rich Coleman Minister of Health ......................................................................................................................................................................Hon. George Abbott Minister of Labour and Citizens’ Services ......................................................................................................................................Hon. Olga Ilich Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General................................................................................................................................Hon.

John Les Minister of Small Business and Revenue and Minister Responsible for Regulatory Reform............................................ Hon. Rick Thorpe Minister of Tourism, Sport and the Arts ......................................................................................................................................Hon. Stan Hagen Minister of State for ActNow B.C. ............................................................................................................................................ Hon.

Gordon Hogg Minister of Transportation...........................................................................................................................................................Hon.

Kevin Falcon LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Leader of the Official Opposition .........................................................................................................................................................Carole James Deputy Speaker ....................................................................................................................................................................................Sindi Hawkins Deputy Speaker ...........................................................................................................................................................................

Katherine Whittred Assistant Deputy Speaker.....................................................................................................................................................................Sue Hammell Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole................................................................................................................................................. Harry Bloy Clerk of the Legislative Assembly .........................................................................................................................E.

George MacMinn, OBC, QC Clerk Assistant.........................................................................................................................................................................................Robert Vaive Clerk Assistant and Law Clerk .......................................................................................................................................................Ian D. Izard, QC Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees ....................................................................................................................................... Craig H.

James Clerk Assistant and Committee Clerk ..........................................................................................................................................Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sergeant-at-Arms............................................................................................................................................................................. A.A.

Humphreys Director, Hansard Services ...................................................................................................................................................................Jo-Anne Kern Legislative Librarian ..................................................................................................................................................................................Jane Taylor Legislative Comptroller...............................................................................................................................................................................Dan Arbic

Party Standings: Liberal 46; New Democratic 33 ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS Abbott, Hon. George (L) .................................................................... Shuswap Austin, Robin (NDP)............................................................................. Skeena Bains, Harry (NDP).................................................................. Surrey-Newton Barisoff, Hon. Bill (L)..........................................Penticton–Okanagan Valley Bell, Hon.

Pat (L) .............................................................Prince George North Bennett, Bill (L) ........................................................................ East Kootenay Black, Iain (L) ............................................................ Port Moody–Westwood Bloy, Harry (L)................................................................................Burquitlam Bond, Hon. Shirley (L).....................................Prince George–Mount Robson Brar, Jagrup (NDP).....................................................Surrey–Panorama Ridge Campbell, Hon.

Gordon (L) .........................................Vancouver–Point Grey Cantelon, Ron (L)..............................................................Nanaimo-Parksville Chong, Hon. Ida (L) .................................................... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Chouhan, Raj (NDP) ...........................................................Burnaby-Edmonds Christensen, Hon. Tom (L) ................................................. Okanagan-Vernon Chudnovsky, David (NDP) ......................................... Vancouver-Kensington Coell, Hon.

Murray (L) .....................................Saanich North and the Islands Coleman, Hon. Rich (L)...........................................Fort Langley–Aldergrove Conroy, Katrine (NDP) .......................................... West Kootenay–Boundary Coons, Gary (NDP) ....................................................................... North Coast Cubberley, David (NDP)............................................................Saanich South de Jong, Hon.

Michael (L) ...................................Abbotsford–Mount Lehman Dix, Adrian (NDP) .........................................................Vancouver-Kingsway Evans, Corky (NDP).................................................................Nelson-Creston Falcon, Hon. Kevin (L) .......................................................

Surrey-Cloverdale Farnworth, Mike (NDP) ...............................Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Fleming, Rob (NDP) ..............................................................Victoria-Hillside Fraser, Scott (NDP) ..............................................................Alberni-Qualicum Gentner, Guy (NDP).......................................................................Delta North Hagen, Hon. Stan (L) ................................................................ Comox Valley Hammell, Sue (NDP) ................................................... Surrey–Green Timbers Hansen, Hon.

Colin (L) ..................................................Vancouver-Quilchena Hawes, Randy (L).......................................................... Maple Ridge–Mission Hawkins, Sindi (L) ............................................................... Kelowna-Mission Hayer, Dave S. (L) ................................................................ Surrey-Tynehead Hogg, Hon.

Gordon (L).....................................................Surrey–White Rock Horgan, John (NDP)......................................................Malahat–Juan de Fuca Horning, Al (L)........................................................... Kelowna–Lake Country Ilich, Hon. Olga (L)...............................................................Richmond Centre James, Carole (NDP).......................................................Victoria–Beacon Hill Jarvis, Daniel (L)..................................................

North Vancouver–Seymour Karagianis, Maurine (NDP) ........................................... Esquimalt-Metchosin Krog, Leonard (NDP)......................................................................... Nanaimo Krueger, Hon. Kevin (L) .....................................Kamloops–North Thompson Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP)........................... Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Lali, Harry (NDP)........................................................................

Yale-Lillooet Lee, Richard T. (L)....................................................................Burnaby North Lekstrom, Blair (L).............................................................. Peace River South Les, Hon. John (L)............................................................... Chilliwack-Sumas Macdonald, Norm (NDP).................................... Columbia River–Revelstoke MacKay, Dennis (L)....................................................

Bulkley Valley–Stikine Mayencourt, Lorne (L).......................................................Vancouver-Burrard McIntyre, Joan (L).................................................West Vancouver–Garibaldi Neufeld, Hon. Richard (L) .................................................. Peace River North Nuraney, John (L).............................................................Burnaby-Willingdon Oppal, Hon. Wally, QC (L).......................................... Vancouver-Fraserview Penner, Hon. Barry (L)...........................................................

Chilliwack-Kent Polak, Mary (L) ....................................................................................Langley Puchmayr, Chuck (NDP)...................................................... New Westminster Ralston, Bruce (NDP) ............................................................. Surrey-Whalley Reid, Hon. Linda (L) ................................................................ Richmond East Richmond, Hon. Claude (L).............................................................

Kamloops Robertson, Gregor (NDP) ................................................Vancouver-Fairview Roddick, Valerie (L).......................................................................Delta South Routley, Doug (NDP)..................................................... Cowichan-Ladysmith Rustad, John (L) ........................................................

Prince George–Omineca Sather, Michael (NDP).........................................Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Simons, Nicholas (NDP) ...................................Powell River–Sunshine Coast Simpson, Bob (NDP)..................................................................Cariboo North Simpson, Shane (NDP) ....................................................Vancouver-Hastings Sultan, Ralph (L) ....................................................West Vancouver–Capilano Taylor, Hon.

Carole (L).....................................................Vancouver-Langara Thorne, Diane (NDP) .................................................Coquitlam-Maillardville Thorpe, Hon. Rick (L).......................................................Okanagan-Westside Trevena, Claire (NDP) ..................................................................North Island van Dongen, Hon. John (L)............................................ Abbotsford-Clayburn Whittred, Katherine (L)........................................

North Vancouver–Lonsdale Wyse, Charlie (NDP) .................................................................Cariboo South Yap, John (L)...................................................................Richmond-Steveston LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING Abbotsford-Clayburn....................................................Hon. John van Dongen Abbotsford–Mount Lehman .......................................... Hon. Michael de Jong Alberni-Qualicum..........................................................................

Scott Fraser Bulkley Valley–Stikine ...........................................................Dennis MacKay Burnaby North ...........................................................................Richard T. Lee Burnaby-Edmonds........................................................................Raj Chouhan Burnaby-Willingdon................................................................... John Nuraney Burquitlam.......................................................................................Harry Bloy Cariboo North..............................................................................

Bob Simpson Cariboo South..............................................................................Charlie Wyse Chilliwack-Kent ..................................................................Hon. Barry Penner Chilliwack-Sumas...................................................................... Hon. John Les Columbia River–Revelstoke................................................. Norm Macdonald Comox Valley........................................................................ Hon.

Stan Hagen Coquitlam-Maillardville..............................................................Diane Thorne Cowichan-Ladysmith ................................................................. Doug Routley Delta North ...................................................................................Guy Gentner Delta South ............................................................................. Valerie Roddick East Kootenay................................................................................

Bill Bennett Esquimalt-Metchosin.........................................................Maurine Karagianis Fort Langley–Aldergrove ..................................................Hon. Rich Coleman Kamloops.....................................................................Hon. Claude Richmond Kamloops–North Thompson ............................................Hon. Kevin Krueger Kelowna–Lake Country.................................................................. Al Horning Kelowna-Mission ......................................................................

Sindi Hawkins Langley ...........................................................................................Mary Polak Malahat–Juan de Fuca .................................................................. John Horgan Maple Ridge–Mission ................................................................ Randy Hawes Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows ..................................................... Michael Sather Nanaimo......................................................................................

Leonard Krog Nanaimo-Parksville .....................................................................Ron Cantelon Nelson-Creston .............................................................................Corky Evans New Westminster .................................................................. Chuck Puchmayr North Coast....................................................................................

Gary Coons North Island ...............................................................................Claire Trevena North Vancouver–Lonsdale................................................Katherine Whittred North Vancouver–Seymour..........................................................Daniel Jarvis Oak Bay–Gordon Head ........................................................... Hon. Ida Chong Okanagan-Vernon......................................................... Hon. Tom Christensen Okanagan-Westside..............................................................Hon.

Rick Thorpe Peace River North.......................................................... Hon. Richard Neufeld Peace River South..................................................................... Blair Lekstrom Penticton–Okanagan Valley .................................................Hon. Bill Barisoff Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain ............................................Mike Farnworth Port Moody–Westwood.................................................................... Iain Black Powell River–Sunshine Coast ...............................................

Nicholas Simons Prince George North.................................................................... Hon. Pat Bell Prince George–Mount Robson ............................................Hon. Shirley Bond Prince George–Omineca................................................................ John Rustad Richmond Centre......................................................................Hon. Olga Ilich Richmond East........................................................................Hon.

Linda Reid Richmond-Steveston...........................................................................John Yap Saanich North and the Islands ............................................ Hon. Murray Coell Saanich South ........................................................................ David Cubberley Shuswap............................................................................Hon. George Abbott Skeena.......................................................................................... Robin Austin Surrey-Cloverdale............................................................... Hon.

Kevin Falcon Surrey–Green Timbers ................................................................Sue Hammell Surrey-Newton............................................................................... Harry Bains Surrey–Panorama Ridge.................................................................Jagrup Brar Surrey-Tynehead ....................................................................... Dave S. Hayer Surrey-Whalley...........................................................................Bruce Ralston Surrey–White Rock ............................................................Hon.

Gordon Hogg Vancouver-Burrard..............................................................Lorne Mayencourt Vancouver-Fairview.............................................................Gregor Robertson Vancouver-Fraserview .................................................Hon.

Wally Oppal, QC Vancouver-Hastings .................................................................Shane Simpson Vancouver-Kensington.......................................................David Chudnovsky Vancouver-Kingsway ......................................................................Adrian Dix Vancouver-Langara ........................................................... Hon. Carole Taylor Vancouver–Mount Pleasant........................................ Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Vancouver–Point Grey ................................................Hon.

Gordon Campbell Vancouver-Quilchena.........................................................Hon. Colin Hansen Victoria–Beacon Hill...................................................................

Carole James Victoria-Hillside ...........................................................................Rob Fleming West Kootenay–Boundary........................................................Katrine Conroy West Vancouver–Capilano...........................................................Ralph Sultan West Vancouver–Garibaldi ........................................................Joan McIntyre Yale-Lillooet..................................................................................... Harry Lali

CONTENTS Tuesday, March 11, 2008 Afternoon Sitting Routine Proceedings Page Introductions by Members ....................................................................................................... ............................................ 10429 Tributes ....................................................................................................................... ............................................................ 10430 Doug Bondue C.

Trevena Introductions by Members ....................................................................................................... ............................................ 10430 Introduction and First Reading of Bills........................................................................................ ....................................... 10431 Musqueam Reconciliation, Settlement and Benefits Agreement Implementation Act (Bill 12) Hon.

M. de Jong Statements (Standing Order 25B) .............................................................................................................................. ........... 10431 Journée de la Francophonie R. Cantelon B.C. firefighters C. James Team B.C. at Special Olympics R. Lee Forest industry in B.C. D. Routley Joseph Creek residential care facility B. Bennett Aboriginal canoe naming ceremony S.

Hammell Oral Questions................................................................................................................. ....................................................... 10433 Government relationship with Ken Dobell C. James Hon. W. Oppal J. Kwan S. Simpson R. Fleming M. Karagianis D. Thorne N. Macdonald Hon. M. de Jong Status of Ken Dobell with Law Society of B.C. B. Ralston Hon. M. de Jong Disclosure of documents in B.C. Rail–CN Rail investigation M. Farnworth Hon. W.

Oppal Reports from Committees........................................................................................................ ............................................. 10438 Select Standing Committee on Public Accounts, third report R. Fleming J. McIntyre Committee of the Whole House................................................................................................... ........................................ 10438 Forests and Range Statutes Amendment Act, 2008 (Bill 8) (continued) B. Simpson Hon. R. Coleman

Report and Third Reading of Bills .............................................................................................. ......................................... 10454 Forests and Range Statutes Amendment Act, 2008 (Bill 8) Committee of the Whole House................................................................................................... ........................................ 10454 Local Government Statutes Amendment Act, 2008 (Bill 7) Hon. I. Chong C. Wyse G. Robertson M. Farnworth G.

Gentner Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room Committee of Supply............................................................................................................ ................................................. 10462 Estimates: Ministry of Labour and Citizens' Services C. Puchmayr Hon. O. Ilich R. Chouhan

10429 TUESDAY, MARCH 11, 2008 The House met at 1:34 p.m. [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] Introductions by Members Hon. M. de Jong: On a historic day, a remarkable day, it's my pleasure to ask members to welcome to the Legis- lature a number of very special guests. Included amongst them from the Musqueam In dian band are Chief Ernie Campbell, Councillor Wendy Grant-John, Councillor Delbert Guerin, Elder Larry Grant and Leona Sparrow. In addition, of course, there are a number of elders and community members from the Musqueam First Nation.

We also have in the precincts Grand Chief Edward John from the First Nations Summit and Leadership Council and Chief Shawn Atleo, regional chief of the Assembly of First Nations. Having just attended the signing of a historic agree- ment, all are awaiting the next step in that journey along the path of reconciliation. I hope all members will make our guests feel very welcome today. [1335] C. James: I'll add our appreciati on to the chiefs, the elders and the councillors who are here today — from the opposition as well. I am also pleased to introduce Laura Collier, who is here today.

She is completing her fourth year in the Uni- versity of Victoria's School of Social Work. It's been my good fortune to have Laura working in my community office as a practicum student over the last while. Visiting today with Laura are her parents Del and Lynette Collier of Gull Lake, Saskatchewan. The Colliers own and run a grain and cattle farm in Gull Lake. They're here visiting their daughter today. I think it's especially nice, as we celebrate Social Work Week, to be able to welcome Laura and her family to the Legislature. Hon.

J. van Dongen: With us today in the Legislature to celebrate journée de la Francophonie are Mr. Moussa Magassa, board member of the Fédération des franco- phones de la Colombie-Britannique; Mr. Walter Deplazes, consul general of Switzerland; and Mr. Real Roy, president of the Victoria Francophone Society. They are here along with many members of the francophone community, and I ask the House to please make them all very welcome. D. Thorne: Over the last couple of days, we've had visitations from many of British Columbia's fine firefight- ers.

I have had the distinct pleasure of having two young men from Coquitlam, fabulous examples of firefighters. I would like the House to welcome Mac Sullivan and Jason Miller, loyal members of Local 1782 and representatives of Coquitlam's best. Hon. S. Bond: It's my pleasure today to introduce Mme. Marie Bourgeois to the House, who's also here to celebrate Francophone Day in British Columbia. Mme. Bourgeois is known for her unwavering commitment to the promotion of French language and culture.

In fact, she was awarded the Order of Canada in 2005 in recognition of her unparalleled leadership and work on various boards and francoph one organizations. I am very proud to say that she is the board chair of school district 93, which is B.C.'s francophone school district, le conseil scolaire francophone. Alors, je vous souhaite une bonne journee de la Franco- phonie. I ask the House to give Mme. Bourgeois a very warm welcome. C. Wyse: I would also ask the House to join with me in welcoming Daryl Cooper and Rob Chalmers, who met with me this morning on behalf of firemen from around the province.

In welcoming them, I would ask whether the Speaker might also consider welcoming all the other fire representatives that are here in the House with us. Mr. Speaker: On behalf of all members, I would like to welcome all the firefighters who are here today and, apparently, last night also. A number of members, I think, enjoyed an enjoyable evening with them. R. Cantelon: Indeed, there are five of Nanaimo's finest firefighters here in the gallery: Mike Rispin, Bill Eggers, Brian Wood, Ron Daly and Chad Porter. Thank you for broadening the welcome. Should things get too heated in question period, Mr.

Speaker, they're prepared to leap into action to help us. M. Farnworth: Just in quick response to the member opposite, I think that if things get too heated here in question period, they want to enjoy the fire. It's my pleasure to introduce a couple of firefighters from Port Coquitlam, Mr. Rob Bonas and Mr. Nick Zupan. They're here to inform us of their issues as firefighters and also to observe the fireworks in question period. Would the House please give them a big welcome. Mr. Speaker: I tried to welcome all the firefighters. [1340] V.

Roddick: T h e r e w e r e f i v e o f D e l t a ' s f i n e s t h e r e last night as well. In the gallery today from Delta Senior Secondary School, fondly referred to as Ladner high, are 60 civics 11 students that are really, really engaged. I almost froze to death out there, but it was the most terrific time — great questions. They are joined today by Mrs. Alka Goel-Stevens, Mr. Graham Harkley and their teacher, Mr. John Powell. So would the House really make these young people welcome. C.

Puchmayr: I, too, had the privilege of meeting with one of New West's finest, Greg Simpkin, a New Westminster firefigh ter, and also with one of their union reps, Tim Bailey. We decided not to meet in the great big board room and meet in the coffee shop. They made me buy them breakfast, so they're very astute. Please make them welcome.

10430 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, MARCH 11, 2008 Hon. I. Chong: In the gallery today is Mr. Gérald Moreau, a former constituent of mine and a retired uni- versity professor from the University of Victoria. He is also here to celebrate Francophone Day at the Legislature. More recently, Mr. Moreau served as a citizenship judge here in British Columbia, performing many ceremonies and welcoming many new Canadians to Canada. I just wanted to say that I first met Mr. Moreau through his late wife, Mme. Henriette Moreau, who was my French teacher at Mount Douglas high school, where she taught for 23 years. Mrs.

Moreau was tireless in her efforts in the pro- motion of the French language and culture here in Victoria and in Coquitlam. In her honour and in her memory, five awards will be given annually through sev- eral organizations for Mme. Henriette Moreau. I would ask the House to please welcome Mr. Gérald Moreau. K. Conroy: I so rarely get to introduce people from the Kootenays that I am going to take this opportunity to welcome two firefighters from Trail, Richard Melnyk and Tim Boutin, both from Local 941. They both actu- ally live in Fruitvale, but it's great to have them here. Hon. S. Hagen: We are joined by Mlle.

Lucille Riedle from the Comox Valley Franco phone Association, here t o h e l p u s c e l e b r a t e B . C . F r a n c o p h o n e D a y . W o u l d t h e House please join me in making her welcome. B. Simpson: I want to introduce all the firefighters that are left. Actually, I'm going to introduce another group that's here today, United Steelworkers, a lobby group that's here lobbying various MLAs for immedi- ate assistance for laid-off workers and for communities impacted by the current downturn in the marketplace.

From Local 1-424 Prince George we have David Stoll, Kapal Kilshaw, Alfred Wilkins; from Local 1-3567 in Langley, Caleb Boustall, Igor Berzowski; from USW Dis- trict 3, Kim Pollock, who is no stranger to this House, and from Local 1-85 Port Alberni, Rita Lajeunesse. Would the House please make them welcome. C. Trevena: I would also like to introduce one of the steelworkers in the gallery who is the president of the Campbell River, Courtenay and District Labour Council, Leslie McNabb, who we will be meeting with later.

I would also like to introduce one of the many fire- fighters who came to meet with us, but he was also one of the organizers of the event. I think the House may want to make Reid Wharton, a Campbell River fire- fighter and the co-chair of the association's legislative committee, particularly welcome. Tributes DOUG BONDUE C. Trevena: Some of our communities have some very special people in them, and I would like the House to help me recognize one such person, Doug Bondue from Port Alice, the top hockey volunteer in Canada.

Doug has been a stalwart in the local hockey community, starting a hockey society in the village, keeping the arena open when the mill was shut down and keeping hockey alive in the community. Now he's being recognized by the RBC Local Hockey Leaders program. Doug is the only person from B.C. to be so recognized and will have his name displayed in a permanent exhibit at the Hockey Hall of Fame. Doug is also going to receive $10,000 to be put to- ward the registered charity of his choice. He's going to get a Team Canada jersey, and a banner will be raised in his name in the Port Alice arena.

I hope the House will help me congratulate Doug, B.C.'s top hockey volunteer. [1345] Introductions by Members D. Hayer: We also have five of the finest firefighters visiting here from Surrey. They met with us yesterday, and they're meeting with us later on at 2:30. I would like to welcome them to the House. Would the House please make them very welcome. M. Karagianis: I see that we've just had a new guest enter the gallery. It is the Esquimalt Nation chief, Chief Andy Thomas, and I would ask the House to please make him very welcome. R.

Fleming: I'd like to add to the welcome of the firefighters who are here in the precinct today and single out Rick Farrell and Gary Birtwistle from the Victoria fire department. It's a fire department that is older than this province has been in Confederation. It protects Victoria residents and, of course, this precinct. This year they're celebrating protecting Victorians on land and on sea with the addition of a new fire boat to the new navy of the fire department. Will the House please make those two firefighters welcome. J.

Rustad: Prince George faced a real challenge this past winter with the floods that came along, and the firefighters played a tremendous role in helping our community fight that battle. I'd just like to introduce three of the finest from Prin ce George: Fred Wilkinson, Blake King and John Iverson. Would the House please make them welcome. J. Nuraney: I, too, would like to extend our wel- come to the firefighters from Burnaby. They are not just hard-working and very effici ent, but they also made the calendar — the firefighters' very famous calendar that they issue.

Please join me in welcoming the fire- fighters from Burnaby. Hon. P. Bell: The finest of the fine, the president of the B.C. Professional Fire Fighters Association, from the wonderful community of Prince George — Al Leier. Would the House please make him very welcome. Mr. Speaker: Anybody else to introduce? If you weren't introduced, welcome.

TUESDAY, MARCH 11, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 10431 Introduction and First Reading of Bills MUSQUEAM RECONCILIATION, SETTLEMENT AND BENEFITS AGREEMENT IMPLEMENTATION ACT Hon. M. de Jong presented a message from His Hon- our the Lieutenant-Governor: a bill intituled Musqueam Reconciliation, Settlement and Benefits Agreement Implementation Act. Hon. M. de Jong: I move that the bill be introduced and read a first time now. Motion approved. Hon. M. de Jong: Mr.

Speaker, it is with great pride that I stand in the chamber today and introduce Bill 12, the Musqueam Reconciliation, Settlement and Benefits Agreement Implementation Act. This legislation acts upon the government's com- mitments made in the reconciliation, settlement and benefits agreement signed with the Musqueam people and Chief Ernie Campbell just a few moments ago. This agreement puts the pr ovince and the Musqueam people on a new path of reconciliation and will provide the Musqueam people with a solid foundation upon which to develop their community.

We are, as I pointed out earlier, joined on the floor of the House today by Musqueam Chief Ernie Campbell, Councillors Delbert Guerin and Wendy Grant-John, Elder Larry Grant and Leona Sparrow. I do want to pay tribute to the leadership of Chief Campbell, the councillors and the elders for their courage and vision in taking this step together. They did join with me and othe rs in a ceremony earlier today to sign this historic agreement. It was a proud moment for B.C., one that puts mutual respect, recogni- tion and reconciliation into action.

This agreement establishes new economic opportuni- ties for the Musqueam people, is a basis for reconciliation and resolves many years of outstanding litigation. It creates the foundation for a new relationship between the province and the Musque am people, one that pro- vides a positive future and moves us away from the era of confrontation and litigation. [1350] The transfers of cash an d land contained in the agreement will create economic opportunities so that the Musqueam can fully engage in the lower mainland's mainstream economy.

This is a great day for the Musqueam, a great day for British Columbia and the beginning of a new rela tionship between us. I move that the bill be placed on the orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today. Bill 12, Musqueam Reconciliation, Settlement and Benefits Agreement Implemen tation Act, introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today. Statements (Standing Order 25

B) JOURNÉE DE LA FRANCOPHONIE R. Cantelon: C'est avec grand plaisir que j'annonce la proclamation du 20 mars en tant que journée de la Francophonie en Colombie-Britannique. Puisque la cham- bre ne siège pas la semaine prochaine, nous soulignons cet important événement aujourd'hui. Comme nous le faisons de puis 2002, mon collègue le ministre van Dongen organise un événement spé- cial, à l'heure du midi, pour souligner la journée de la Francophonie. Cette année le s célébrations mettent en vedette le secteur des arts et de la culture francopho- nes et soulignent le 150 e anniversaire de la Colombie- Britannique.

Dans les années 1850 les francophones constituaient jusqu'à 60 pour cent de toute la population européenne en Colombie-Britannique. Les francophones ont contribué à l’exploration de la province et y ont établi la première colonie de peuplement au XVII e siècle. Plusieurs lieux symboliques de la ville de Victoria, soit l'hôpital Saint- Joseph et l'Académie Sainte-Anne, ont été construits par des francophones. Cette proclamation hono re notre communauté fran- cophone.

À la fois dynamique et bien vivante, elle regroupe plus de 63 000 personnes, en plus de centaines de milliers de Britanno-Colombiens qui ont adopté la langue française. La proclamation du 20 mars en tant que journée de la Francophonie en Colombie-Britannique fournit à toutes les personnes parlant français — et moi aussi — dans notre province une occasion de célébrer et de par- tager leur joie de vivre. Veuillez donc vous joindre à moi pour féliciter et remercier les citoyens de la Colombie-Britannique parlant français pour leur contribution à notre société. [French text provided by R. Cantelon.] B.C.

FIREFIGHTERS C. James: Continuing on with the theme from intro- duction of guests at the beginning of this session, the B.C. Professional Fire Figh ters Association is holding their annual legislative conference in Victoria, and I had the pleasure yesterday of addressing that conference. Over the next couple of da ys all MLAs will be meeting with delegations of firefighters from their communities. Each MLA in British Columbia has a deep appreciation and respect for the firefighters association and the work that they do.

The Professional Fire Fi ghters Association is an extremely effective advocate for firefighters, for fire safety and for the health and well-being of our com- munities. One of those amazing community supports is the firefighters burn fund. Through awareness, research and prevention programs, for 30 years the

10432 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, MARCH 11, 2008 firefighters burn fund has made an enormous contribu- tion to B.C.'s communities, providing support to burn research, burn survivors and to the families of burn victims. The firefighters association also led the fight to recognize different forms of cancer as occupational diseases. New Democrats were proud to support Bill 11 and to offer amendments to expand its scope, recognizing that fire is on ly one of the dangers that firefighters face.

One of the most passion ate advocates in the cam- paign to recognize cancer as a presumptive illness passed away last year. Robert Hall fought his illness with the same resolve and purpose that he fought for the health and dignity of all firefighters. Robert served oth- ers so that we could all be safe. I know all members in this House will miss Robert's smile on a day like this, when we remember him being here each year to lobby all of us. That smile and that legacy will remain forever.

I ask all members in this House to join with me to honour firefighters for their sacrifice, their dedication and their bravery. [1355] TEAM B.C. AT SPECIAL OLYMPICS R. Lee: On February 24, I attended the Team B.C. send-off ceremony for the 2008 Special Olympics Can- ada National Winter Games in Quebec City. I was pleased to join the Minister of State for ActNow B.C. at the draft and athletes' send-off. The draft was in NHL style, where each of the ath- letes and a sponsor, including the government of B.C., were paired and photographed on stage.

We also heard from three guest speakers: the Minister of State for Act- Now B.C.; Colin MacKinnon, chair of the board of direc- tors of Special Olympics Canada; and Ken McLean, a Team B.C. athlete who delivered a very inspiring speech. Events like this would not be possible without the hard work of Karen Hamilton of Special Olympics B.C. It is indeed an exciting opportunity for sponsors to meet these amazing athletes. The games took place in Quebec City from Febru- ary 27 to March 2. I am pleased to report that the games were a tremendous success for all participants.

The team of 98 athletes, along with 42 coaches and mis- sion staff from across the province, proudly repre- sented our province at the games. Along with new friends made and many personal bests, the Team B.C. athletes won 134 medals in seven sports at the games, including alpine skiing, cross- country skiing, curling, figure skating, floor hockey, snowshoeing and speed skating. Of particular note are the achievements of Bridget Colvin of Burnaby, who came home with three medals — gold, silver and bronze — in various snowshoeing events.

Would the House please join me in sending our congratulations to all the athletes, their dedicated training coaches and team coaches, and supporting family and friends for reachi ng new heights in Special Olympics. FOREST INDUSTRY IN B.C. D. Routley: I rise in the House today to talk about the number one industry in British Columbia, and that is forestry. I rise to talk about forestry in B.C. and in my riding of Cowichan and Ladysmith. Forestry is an industry in crisis. Over the last three years we have lost 45 percent of our revenue from stumpage.

From '04 to '07 we went from $1.3 billion in stumpage to $714 million. A further $40 million is ex- pected to be lost from that total this year, which will take us down to $674 million exacted from forestry stumpage. That will be a 50 percent decline. Over the last five years we have seen over 50 major mills close. On Vancouver Island the most recent was Elk Falls, affecting hundreds of workers and their fami- lies and indirectly affecting the entire community.

The communities of Vancouver Island are calling out for a plan that will deal with our forest inventory, that will assess our forest health, that will give us new cur- rent data on our timber supply and that will provide us with an old-growth strategy. We need an innovative 21st-century approach that will recognize the ecosystem services that our forests pr ovide when it comes to car- bon, air and water services and preservation.

We need to ensure that full value is extracted from our resources when it come s to dimension lumber, re- manufacturing, value-added, engineered wood products, pellets, pulp and paper, and hardwood products. Those should be the priorities, not raw log export. We need a community and worker stability pro- gram that will provide the economic diversification required by our communities for their survival, but one that retains our indu stry and reta ins workers within that industry.

If we are to have a 21st-century forest industry, we need the workers, we need the skills and we need the methods to be developed, not transitioned out of that in dustry. So I call for this House to endorse a recommitment to forestry in Brit- ish Columbia. JOSEPH CREEK RESIDENTIAL CARE FACILITY B. Bennett: O n S a t u r d a y n i g h t m y w i f e a n d I a t - tended the Cranbrook and District Chamber of Com- merce evening of excellence. It's an annual event. Awards are handed out to small and large businesses for everything from marketing prowess to best-improved.

The top award of the evening was for business of the year. It's the award that 's given to the business in the area that shows leader ship, job creation, environ- mental enhancement, good labour relations and high- quality, safe service. [1400] I am pleased to announce today that the Joseph Creek care home in Cranbrook was awarded the busi- ness of the year award. Joseph Creek Care Village is a relatively new facility in our community, which pro- vides 29 assisted-living units and 100 complex care units.

TUESDAY, MARCH 11, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 10433

Whereas seniors once waited up to two years in my area to get a complex care bed in an outdated facility, today seniors and their families wait an average of two months to get a beautiful, bright new room in Joseph Creek Care Village. Of course, seniors where I come from had never even heard of assisted living before Joseph Creek Care Village. If they were too weak to be at home, they were shipped to the hospital to occupy an acute care bed or were institutionalized in old buildings with long hall- ways and tiny rooms.

Joseph Creek Care Village has brought hope and optimism to seniors in the Cranbrook area, partly, at least, because they recognize the aging process in itself is neither an illness nor a medical condition. There are no patients. Instead, there are residents who bring with them an extended network of relationships with fam- ily, friends and others that are maintained within the social fabric of that facility. Joseph Creek Care Village accepts and adapts to each individual senior's func tional abilities, personal desires, life experience and health needs.

They respect individual differences, they promote individual choice, and they focus on strength and wellness. This is the fundamental distinction be tween the medical and the social models of care. When thinking about this statement on the week- end, my wife mentioned to me a recent obituary in the Cranbrook Daily Townsman .

The obituary closed with the following statement: "Fred spent the last months of his life under the tender, loving care of the amazing staff at Joseph Creek Care Village." Congratulations to Joseph Creek Care Village in Cranbrook, especially to th e 160 hard-working people who work in that facility. ABORIGINAL CANOE NAMING CEREMONY S. Hammell: The event at Queen Elizabeth high school was on my calendar, as well as a number of other events, on Saturday, February 16. I stopped by, planning to spend an hour, and stayed for eight.

I wit- nessed and was chosen to bear witness to the naming ceremony of a 30-foot hand-carved aboriginal canoe. Many of the moments of the next eight hours were simply amazing. The hand-carved, traditional-style north- ern canoe entered the gymnasium to the beat of drums on the shoulders of about 60 people. The transformation from a huge western red cedar tree to this long, narrow, elegant and beautiful 30-foot canoe was simply breathtaking.

The canoe took its place in the front of the gymna- sium, and as the canoe was given life and a name, the accomplished carver Michael Dangeli described in detail the journey of the carvers and the dream of teaching people about first nations culture, traditions and proto- cols through the carving of Ishqual. The canoe was named Ishqual, meaning flight of eagles. In the aboriginal tradition, the transformation of the tree to its new life as a canoe was complete when it was named. At that point more drums were heard, accompanied by singing and dancing from the Nahanee family dancers who entered the gym.

Masked in black paint and moving to the music of creatures of the forest, the dancers honoured the naming of the canoe and the carver Michael's accomplishment. They were followed by a troupe, 50 strong, of Nisga'a cultural dancers who were able to make one's hair stand on end. The beating of the drums accompanied by the blowing of a conch shell horn echoed through the gym as the singers and dancers came on stage in waves of mesmerized singing and dancing. The effect was astonishing. How fortunate I was to bear witness, and I wish all of us to assist them with their accomplishments.

Oral Questions GOVERNMENT RELATIONSHIP WITH KEN DOBELL C. James: Yesterday the Attorney General denied there was a cloud over Ken Dobell. Well, as it turns out, there is a cloud, and it's not only over Ken Dobell. It's over the Premier and his entire office. [1405] Yesterday we learned that the Premier's top adviser, Ken Dobell, has been charged with violating the Lobby- ists Registration Act. The special prosecutor also said that Mr. Dobell could be charged with influence-peddling based on a contractual scheme that was approved by the Premier and his deputy, Jessica McDonald.

Today we learned that the Premier has been asked to testify in the B.C. Rail corruption trial. My question is to the Attorney General. If that's not a cloud, what is? Hon. W. Oppal: I don't quite understand the question. Interjections. Hon. W. Oppal: Well, if it was coherent, I would understand it. If it was coherent and comprehensive and it stuck to one issue, I'd understand it. If the question relates to Mr. Dobell, Mr. Dobell is scheduled to appear in the court tomorrow. I would assume that when he appears tomorrow, he'll enter a plea of either guilty or not guilty.

So why don't we wait to see what happens in a courtroom tomorrow? Mr. Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition has a supplemental. C. James: This relates directly to the Premier's office and the Premier's deputy. In 2006 Ken Dobell sent a letter to Jessica McDonald, the Premier's deputy minis- ter, and to Judy Rogers, a Vancouver city manager. In that letter he expressed his own concerns about con- flict of interest. Jessica McDonald, the Premier's own deputy, brushed off those concerns and personally approved an arrangement that the special prosecutor has said is influence-peddling.

10434 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, MARCH 11, 2008 My question is to the De puty Premier. Given that Jessica McDonald and the Premier set up this scheme, will the government do the right thing, remove Jessica McDonald from her position as Deputy Minister to the Premier and actually do something about integrity for this government? Hon. W. Oppal: We have faith in the system. We have faith that whatever the judge will decide as far as imposing a sentence on Mr. Dobell will be an appro- priate sentence. We'll live by that. Mr. Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition has a further supplemental. C.

James: The Attorney General says that he has faith in the system. What we don't have faith in is any kind of integrity and trust in the Premier of British Co- lumbia. That's where we don't have trust. Ken Dobell's letter and Jessica McDonald's own admission in 2007 make it clear. The Premier and his office were complicit in what the special prosecutor is calling influence-peddling. There was no due diligence. A whitewashed report and a continued favour to the Premier's closest friend. Ken Dobell is not the only one to blame. He raised the concerns himself.

It was the Premier and his office who approved those contracts. It was the Premier and his office who approved what the special prosecutor says is influence-peddling. It's the Premier and his of- fice who should be held accountable. So again, my question is to the Deputy Premier. When will the B.C. Liberals fire the Premier's deputy and actually restore integrity in that office? Hon. W.

Oppal: I find it unfortunate that the Leader of the Opposition has such disregard for the process and such disregard for the rule of law that she makes state- ments concerning other people who are not involved in the issue that will be before the court tomorrow. J. Kwan: Let's be clear. It was the Premier's office that allowed a scheme that the Crown prosecutor called influence-peddling, which went on for months in the Premier's office, and the Premier's office did nothing about it. They even kept Dobell on in key positions. He was chair of the convention centre, a project now $400 million in budget overruns.

They allowed him to keep on lo bbying his office and sev- eral other cabinet ministers. They even appointed him to lobby Ottawa on B.C.'s behalf. All of this was signed off by the Premier's office and by Jessica McDonald. [1410] Again to the Deputy Premier: will this government hold the Premier's deputy to account and fire Jessica McDonald today? Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Hon. W. Oppal: M r . D o b e l l w i l l a p p e a r i n c o u r t tomorrow. He will presumably enter a plea at that time. A disposition presumably will be made, and we'll live by it. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. J.

Kwan: This is a question about the Premier's dep- uty, Jessica McDonald. The Premier is not going to hold himself to account. Let's be clear about that. At the very least, the Premier's deputy should be held accountable. Ken Dobell's protégé, Jessica McDonald, gave her former boss a pass on issues of conflict, on violations of ethical standards and the Lo bbyists Registration Act. Her actions have put the Premier's office into disrepute. My question to the Deputy Premier is this. Will she stand up and hold Jessica McDonald to account and fire her today? Hon. W.

Oppal: The last time I looked, the charge was sworn against Mr. Dobell. That will be heard. As far as other witnesses or other people involved…. Interjections. Hon. W. Oppal: I'm sure that's something that's fodder for the opposition to speculate upon. But what we're concerned about is…. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Continue. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Hon. W. Oppal: We can run out the 30 minutes like this. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Continue. Hon. W. Oppal: Okay. We'll wait for the court to make its decision. S. Simpson: In April of last year Jessica McDonald cleared Mr.

Dobell of any conflict in a memo. We have now learned from the work of the special prosecutor that he was much less than clear of any conflict and that, in fact, the memo from Ms. McDonald was noth- ing more than a whitewash. That's unacceptable con- duct by the deputy Premier. Will the government do the right thing, and will they fire Ms. McDonald now? Hon. W. Oppal: As long as that same question will b e a s k e d , I ' l l g i v e t h e s a m e a n s w e r . W e ' l l w a i t f o r t h e trial judge to make his or her decision. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental.

TUESDAY, MARCH 11, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 10435 S. Simpson: The trial judge will make a decision about Mr. Dobell, who presumably, from reports, will plead guilty. This issue isn't about Mr. Dobell. This issue is about the Premier' s office. It is about Ms. McDonald and her conduct in c l e a r i n g M r . D o b e l l o f charges that we now know he clearly was guilty of, by his own admission. The question is Ms. McDonald. Why won't this government protect its own integ- rity? Maybe its integrity is not important to it.

Maybe its sense of entitlement is all that's important to this group on the other side. Fire Ms. McDonald for her breach of proper conduct. Hon. W. Oppal: If the opposition is so preoccupied by Ms. McDonald and is making the allegations against her, why don't they step outside and make them? [1415] R. Fleming: I'm trying to glean something out of the Attorney General's non-answers, so my question for him is about Mrs. McDonald. If tomorrow Mr. Do- bell is found guilty, is that the moment that the deputy Premier will have been found in serious breach and serious error, and she will be fired?

Is that the moment when it will occur finally — tomorrow after the trial? Hon. W. Oppal: You know, once more we see how the opposition is showing a complete disregard for the legal process. They're rushing to judgment. The matter will be heard in the courtroom tomor- row. Why can't we wait to hear what the judge has to say? Is there nothing else that they have to go on? Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Members. Continue, Attorney. Hon. W. Oppal: The matter will come up before the judge tomorrow. We'll hear what the judge has to say and what the decision will be. M.

Karagianis: I think it's appalling that no one is a b l e t o b e h e l d a c c o u n t a b l e i n t h i s g o v e r n m e n t f o r these actions and for what cl early has been outlined as influence-peddling. Yesterday the Attorney General refused to admit that it's not okay for any of his ministers to continue meeting with Mr. Dobell while he's being charged. So I would ask through to the Minister of Transporta- tion, who's nice and chirpy over there. Mr. Dobell is registered to lobby him on behalf of Cubic Transpor- tation Systems.

Will the Minister of Transportation agree today to call off an y and all future meetings with his ministry and with any public agencies like TransLink? Hon. W. Oppal: I'll read the portion of the report again. "Mr. Dobell is scheduled to make his first appearance in Vancouver Provincial Court in the morning of March 12, 2008. As this matter is before the court, it would not be appropriate to comment on the circumstances of the case at this time." Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. The member has a supplemental. M. Karagianis: Let's talk a little bit about the history o f t h i s g o v e r n m e n t .

I n t h e p a s t i t w a s o k a y t o f i r e M r . Basi and to suspend Mr. Virk at the very first hint of an investigation in the B.C. corruption scandal — the very first hint. Yet here we have Mr. Dobell going before the courts and a special prosecution, and it's okay to con- tinue meeting with him. Again, through to the Minister of Transportation: do the right thing and say today that you will cancel all the future meetings with Mr. Dobell with your ministry and with any public agencies like TransLink. Hon. W. Oppal: I'll do my best to speculate where the question was in all of that.

I assume in that lengthy speech, there was something about Mr. Dobell. If there was, my answer is the same. D. Thorne: The special prosecutor has already said that Mr. Dobell's contract to lobby the provincial gov- ernment on behalf of the city of Vancouver involved influence-peddling. Influence-peddling is something that I would hope this government would take seri- ously, but they're refusing to do anything about it. Mr. Dobell is still registered to lobby the Minister f o r H o u s i n g . S o m y q u e s t i o n i s t o t h e M i n i s t e r f o r Housing. Will the minister agree not to meet with Mr.

Dobell and not allow any of his staff to do it either? [1420] Hon. W. Oppal: Let me, through the Speaker, give some advice — unsolicited as it may be — to the mem- ber opposite. Yes, the special prosecutor has said that. Yes, the special prosecutor has filed a report. Yes, there is a charge before the court. The judge has not made any findings yet. Those presumably will be made to- morrow in a courtroom in the city of Vancouver. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. D. Thorne: That response is not only not accept- able; it doesn't really make a lot of sense. The judge hasn't rendered any decision in Mr.

Basi and Mr. Virk either. We're talking about the same thing here and getting different answers. It's beyond belief that this government will not sever its ties. It's beyond belief. Maybe the only rea- son is because Mr. Dobell is such a close friend of the Premier… Interjections. D. Thorne: I was going to finish that sentence by saying: "…and Mr. Basi and Mr. Virk are not."

10436 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, MARCH 11, 2008 I again ask the Minister fo r Housing: will he agree t o n o t m e e t w i t h M r . D o b e l l o r h a v e a n y o f h i s s t a f f meet with Mr. Dobell? It's a simple question. Please, let's have an answer. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Hon. W. Oppal: Somewhere in that question there has to be a common thread, and I'm trying to find out where it is. There's Mr. Dobell, there's Mr. Basi, and there's Mr. Virk. I guess they're all before the court, so that's some- thing common there. That makes a lot of sense. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members.

Attorney, continue. Hon. W. Oppal: I can't answer the question, because I didn't understand it. N. Macdonald: We'll make this clear. There is one standard for Mr. Basi and Mr. Virk, and there is another standard for a good friend of the Premier. That is what is clear in this issue. Let's turn to the Minister of Tourism, Sport and the Arts. Mr. Dobell is registered to lobby the Minister of Tourism with regards to the cultural precinct project. Meanwhile, he is being char ged with breaking the law regarding lobbying. My question to the Minister of Tourism is very simple.

A yes or a no — will he agree to sever all ties with Mr. Dobell? Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Hon. M. de Jong: Here's what is clear. In less than 24 hours an individual is going to appear in court. The information we have in the report is that that individ- ual is facing charges.

What is abundantly clear from what has taken place here today is that the opposition has so little regard for the time-honoured independence of that judicial process — to allow that judicial process to run its course, to allow that individual to have his day in court for a finding or a plea to be entered and for that charge to be dealt with…. I have never in 15 years seen such a despicable display and such blatant disregard for the independence of the judiciary. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. The member has a supplemental. [1425] N.

Macdonald: Nothing speaks clearer to the fail- ure of the Attorney General than to have the House Leader have to stand up and save him from the pathetic answers we've been getting on this issue. I'll tell you what's clear on this. The deputy minister in the Premier's office cleared Ken Dobell of conflict twice — twice. The deputy minister also gave Ken Dobell permis- sion to violate the cooling-off period. Those two things. So the question is around the credibility of the Pre- mier's office.

And if the House Leader wants to get up and explain to the people of British Columbia why there is special treatment for a longtime friend of the Premier…. Is it poor judgment on the part of the deputy minister, or is it cronyism, pure and simple? Hon. M. de Jong: Time and time and time again, British Columbians have seen the same thing from this opposition — an opposition that has no new ideas and is desperate to create an issue. Today they saw this opposition hit a new low. Ti me and time again we see what they do.

Bankrupt of ideas, they choose to malign the reputation of public se rvants who are, in good faith, providing a service to British Columbians. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Hon. M. de Jong: This is pretty straightforward, Mr. Speaker. If the members opposite want to allege bad faith on the part of the deputy to the Premier, they should go out in the hallway and do so. If the members opposite want to allege some kind of improper conduct on the part of the deputy to the Premier, they should go outside and allege it, free from the kind of immunity that exists out here.

I have never seen such a despicable attack as what I see from this opposition today. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Just take your seat for a second, Mem- ber. We're not going to continue until there's quiet. Just take your seat. STATUS OF KEN DOBELL WITH LAW SOCIETY OF B.C. B. Ralston: The Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council, the cabinet, has the power to appoint six lay benchers to the Law Society. Those are the governing body of the Law Society. Mr. Dobell is one of those lay governors. As of 1:30 today on the website, he's still listed as being a lay bencher of the Law Society.

Will the Attorney General confirm that Mr. Dobell has offered to resign from that position? Hon. M. de Jong: Again, blanketed in the security that the immunity of this chamber grants all members, the opposition continues to cast aspersions on indi- viduals. I am astounded that… Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members.

TUESDAY, MARCH 11, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 10437 Hon. M. de Jong: …this hon. member, a member of the bar, who practised the pr ofession of law, a member of the Law Society of British Columbia, would — 24 hours in advance of an individual going before the court to have a matter dealt with — stand in this chamber and pass judgment in anticipation of what is going to take place in the court. I say shame on that member. I say that he has today revealed a level of disregard for the independence of the judiciary that I would not have expected from this member. Mr.

Speaker: The member has a supplemental. [1430] B. Ralston: Were this person, Mr. Dobell, a police officer who was before the courts and a special prose- cutor appointed, the presum ption of innocence would continue to apply while the matter was before the courts. But his employment relationship might well be suspended or ended. There' s a different standard. Cer- tainly the hon. House Leader knows that, as a some- time member of the bar, I believe. So the question is an en tirely proper one. Has Mr. Dobell offered to resign as a governing member of the Law Society? Hon. M. de Jong: Look.

The member seems to have no qualms whatsoever about injecting himself into a process that the criminal ju stice branch and the special prosecutor went to pains to urge people… Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Member. Hon. M. de Jong: …to refrain from doing. I'll read it too. "Mr. Dobell is scheduled to make his first appearance in Vancouver Provincial Court the morning of March 12, 2008." Gee, I guess we'll have to wait the 15 hours it will take for that to happen.

"As this matter is before the court, it would not be appro- priate to comment on the circumstances of the case at this time." If there's something about that which this member or this opposition has diffi culty understanding, then maybe they should hire a lawyer and have someone explain it to them. DISCLOSURE OF DOCUMENTS IN B.C. RAIL–CN RAIL INVESTIGATION M. Farnworth: The Premier has said that he would cooperate with the B.C. Rail corruption trial. He prom- ised openness and transparen cy.

Well, in the court today the defence raised the issue of the unilateral change to the disclosure protocol made sometime in the summer of 2007. The defence has alleged this may be grounds for litigation under

section 7 of the Charter of Rights, and the defence says that the Premier's change to the disclosure protocol will form the basis of defence application alleging breach of process applica- tion. Can the Attorney General inform the House as to whether the Premier has cleared his calendar so that he can testify? Hon. W. Oppal: I want to read, fi rst, a portion of a letter sent by the Deputy Attorney General to the member for Nanaimo. It says: "The real point in your letter, however, appears to question whether I made decisions on the disclosure of government documents independent of political input.

I have exercised the responsibility I was given to determine whether to assert privilege on any gov- ernment documents completely independently, free of any influence. "There has been no attempt by anyone to influence my decisions. I have been left entirely to my own judg- ment to decide these questions, and I…" Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Continue, Attorney. Hon. W. Oppal: "…take my independence on these and other justice issues very seriously, and I feel aggrieved when that independence is questioned.

I believe that what the Premier said to describe my role in the estimates de- bate in May of 2007 is completely accurate. I was given the power to decide cabinet privilege without further consultation with the Premier or anyone in the Premier's office. I have done that." Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. M. Farnworth: This case is of an extremely serious nature. It goes right to the heart of trust in government and the conduct of the Premier's office is central to this. Questions have been raised.

We learned today that the Premier will be called as a witness — a distinct possi- bility of the Premier being called as a witness. That is a very serious thing. We're just asking the Attorney General, because we know the Premier has very many commitments in this chamber, that they will not be used to block or delay his ability to testify. [1435] Hon. W. Oppal: That question indicates to me how little that person understa nds about the system. What has happened here is that application has been made by the defence lawyers to have the Premier testify. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Hon. W.

Oppal: People don't testify in a courtroom unless they have relevant evidence to give. It's my un- derstanding…. Interjections.

10438 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, MARCH 11, 2008 Mr. Speaker: Members. Continue, Attorney. Hon. W. Oppal: That member should understand what all this is about, above anyone else, you know. Interjection. Mr. Speaker: Continue, Attorney. Hon. W. Oppal: The judge decides if any particular witness has relevant evidence to give or not. If that witness has relevant evidence to give, then that witness would be called. It's not a question of who wants to go and who should go and all the questions that have been posed here by an uninformed member.

The an- swer here is that if there's any relevant evidence to give, that witness will appear and give the relevant evidence. [End of question period.] Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Reports from Committees R. Fleming: Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to pre- sent the third report of the Select Standing Committee on Public Accounts for the third session of the 38th parliament. I move the report be taken as read and received. Motion approved. R. Fleming: I ask leave of the House to suspend the rules to permit the moving of a motion to adopt the report. Leave granted. R.

Fleming: I move the report be adopted and, in doing so, would like to make some brief comments about the committee's work during the last session. I am pleased to report that our committee has worked very well to provide parliamentary oversight to the activities and the programs of government. We've done this through a close working relationship with the Office of the Auditor General, which is now led by Mr. John Doyle, the province's fourth Auditor General, who began his duties on October 29, 2007, relocating here from Wester n Australia after an inter- national search that the committee conducted.

During the third session, the Public Accounts Committee reviewed 11 main reports and one follow- up report tabled by the Office of the Auditor General with the Speaker of the Legislative Assembly. The top- ics covered and reviewed this year ranged very widely from public administration to performance reporting; value-for-money reporting on the subjects of financial reporting, treaty negotiat ions, post-secondary educa- tion and transportation polic y; a report on the child and youth mental health system; and other health care– related matters.

The Public Accounts Committee also reviewed and approved the Auditor General's annual financial statement audit coverage plan. I'd like to thank all of the committee members for their participation for these past months at the Public Accounts Committee and particularly the Deputy Chair, the member for West Vancouver–Garibaldi, for her hard work in convening the committee and con- tributing to the committee.

I'd also like to give special thanks to the member for Coquitlam-Maillardville and the member for Delta N o r t h , w h o s e r v e d o n t h e S e l e c t S t a n d i n g C o m m i t t e e on Public Accounts and who will no longer serve dur- ing this session as they move on to other standing committees of this House. I'd like to welcome the member for North Island and the member for Cariboo North to the Public Accounts Committee, who now serve on this committee. I look forward to working with th ose members as the Public Accounts Committee continues its work with the Office of the Auditor General.

I now move the report, Mr. Speaker. Motion approved. J. McIntyre: Mr. Speaker, I just wanted to echo the sentiments expressed by the Public Accounts Chair and add my thanks to the Chair and to the committee for their hard work over the past year. We accomplished much at the committee level, all the while engaging in our active search for a new Auditor General, whose appointment was approved unanimously in May of that year.

From all the feed- back we've received, I'm very confident that we've selected an outstanding gentleman of integrity who's already making an impact and providing value to all British Columbians. [1440] Orders of the Day Hon. M. de Jong: I call in Committee A. Committee of Supply, for the information of members, will be dis- cussing the estimates of the Ministry of Labour and Citizens' Services. In this chamber continued commit- tee stage debate on Bill 8, Forests and Range Statutes Amendment Act.

Committee of the Whole House FORESTS AND RANGE STATUTES AMENDMENT ACT, 2008 (continued) The House in Committee of the Whole (Section

B) on Bill 8; S. Hawkins in the chair. The committee met at 2:43 p.m.

TUESDAY, MARCH 11, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 10439 On

section 10 (continued). B. Simpson: I think we actually finished

section

Section 10 approved. On

section 11. B. Simpson: Now,

section 11 is amending

section 109, according, again, to the explanatory notes. This is an area that I need some a ssistance to understand. The explanatory note says something about shifting, allowing money derived from a particular expenditure to be cred- i t e d t o B . C . T i m b e r S a l e s o n a p p r o v a l o f t h e T r e a s u r y Board and then allowing money in B.C. Timber Sales account to be expended for the prescribed purpose on approval of the Treasury Board. This is one of those sm all amendments. We're in- serting a subsection (

i) under

section 2 and (

e) under

section 3. I wonder if the minister can describe what is going on here and why these two particular related sections are important in how it relates to B.C. Timber Sales. Hon. R. Coleman: Welcome this afternoon, Madam Chair. We're all pleased to see you in the chair this afternoon.

Section 109 establishes that B.C. Timber Sales ac- count and defines a qualif ying revenue and expendi- tures stream relating to th at account. The amendment to

section 109 will allow money in the B.C. Timber Sales account to be expended for a prescribed purpose, subject to the approval of the Treasury Board. The amendment is also to ensure that any revenues gener- ated from such an expenditure be credited to B.C. Timber Sales account. [1445] This amendment will enable B.C. Timber Sales to pursue innovative business practices that support gov- ernment objectives that ar e closely aligned with the program's mandated objectives. Any new expenditures falling under this category will require a supporting regulation and will be subject to Treasury Board over- sight.

Basically, in order to do something…. For instance, where we might want to work with a first nation and do some fee-for-service work in order to help them build their capacity and mo ve the wood, that would allow for them to do that charge. But it has to be approved by Treasury Board in order fo r them to do it because it has…. Well, it doesn't have a huge fiscal impact, but it's not unusual for these things to have to go to Treasury Board. B.

Simpson: The minister's remarks on introducing the bill go to the latter point that he has made just now that somehow this is going to support new rela- tionships with first nations, allowing more timber to market. It deals with an is sue near and dear to both first nations and licensees, and that has to do with each other. Then later on in his su pplementary comments to close off the debate on second reading, he said that first nations asked us to allow B.C. Timber Sales to be one of the partners that might be able to form a joint venture with them to move wood.

I wonder if the minister could describe what the nature of a joint venture between B.C. Timber Sales and first nations might look like that would be covered under these two

section additions. Hon. R. Coleman: Right now we can't have any relationship with first nations outside of…. B.C. Timber Sales is pretty restricted in what they can do. They can do work on selling their own timber, designing their own timber blocks, designing their own roads and taking it to auction. This would allow B.C. Timber Sales, if the first nation asks for it, to work into a planning relationship where they would be able to plan — basically, expend some funds for planning to help th e first nation achieve their goal.

It would allow them, if the first nation wanted to, to include their wood in an auction, to auction wood, and also to be able to actually joint-venture in a rela- tionship, for instance, on reforestation. That's the type of thing that they can't do today. All the money can't be expended outside the account, and they don't have the ability to do it. This

section amend- ment would allow them to pursue other business prac- tices like that. B. Simpson: Does it only apply to first nations, or can they enter into joint ventures with any other licensee? I don't see any constraints in the legislation that restrict this to joint ventures with first nations. Hon. R. Coleman: No, it doesn't have any restric- tions to other…. Somebody else with timber could come to B.C. Timber Sales, as well, and ask if they would want to enter into a relationship.

The reason this was designed, obviously, was because of the concern over the forest and range opportunities and the movement of wood and the First Nations Forestry Council saying: "We'd like to have a different relationship and some other opportunities for our folks to be able to gain some expertise that may be available within gov- ernment, particularly B.C. Timber Sales." But it doesn't stop B.C. Timber Sales from also working with other groups. [1450] B. Simpson: The minister raised the issue of forest range opportunities, but forest range opportunities have nothing to do with B.C. Timb er Sales.

That's an alloca- tion of cut, independent of what B.C. Timber Sales has. Is the minister suggesting that what a first nation can do is come to B.C. Timber Sales and treat them like a consulting company, to assist them to build some capacity to be able to do work in their forest and range agreements? Is that what's suggested here — that there's effectively a contractual arrangement a first nation can make with B.C. Timber Sales to get some

10440 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, MARCH 11, 2008 assistance to move their volume under forest and range opportunities? Hon. R. Coleman: That's precisely correct. It would allow them to come to B.C. Timber Sales and say: "We have a forest and range opportunity of" — well, let's use the round number — "50,000 cubic metres a year for each of the next five years. We don't have the capac- ity at our end to be able to, basically, plan it and get it out.

We wonder if you would enter into an agreement with us for costs to be able to accomplish that — to move the wood or that sort of thing with regards to the wood that we may want to sell or design the cutblocks for." That sort of thing. This allows B.C. Timber Sales to actually expend money for that prescribed purpose but at the same time also recover it, because there's a cost and a revenue impact here. Basically, they could charge for the service and recover it from the sale , or whatever the case may be. So that's what supports th at, and all of it is subject to Treasury Board oversight. B.

Simpson: If I understand this correctly, in many forest districts, B.C. Timber Sales got first pass on the 20 percent takeback plus whatever was in the small business program. In many forest districts there was a bit of a tussle, if you will, around extracting from some of that takeback opportunities for woodlots, community forests, forest range opportunities, etc. As the minister is well aware, in some districts — I happen to come from one of them — B.C. Timber Sales' take of the 20 percent takeback made it very restrictive for us getting into other arrangements that were supposed to be part of that.

If I understand this correctly, then is this not simply a way for B.C. Timber Sales to contract with first nations to get access back to wood? As the first nation gets a forest and range agreement, they've got 50,000 cubic metres, they go B.C. Timber Sales and say: "Can you m a k e s u r e i t g e t s o u t t o t h e m a r k e t f o r u s ? " I n e f f e c t , then, B.C. Timber Sales is managing that wood, and what…? The first nation simply gets a cheque cut, but B.C. Timber Sales is the one that's now doing the work? Is that how this is going to work? Hon. R.

Coleman: First of all, it should be clear that it isn't mandatory for anybody to do this. Second, what it is, is that the first nations have said: "We need a vehicle, which may include B.C. Timber Sales, that would be able to do something." Now, what the member describes could be one of the outcomes. The other outc ome could be that they come and say: "We want a mutually beneficial contract.

We are not experts at the pl anning of the land, but we certainly can cut the timber, so we would like the em- ployment for our folks for the cutting and the hauling of the timber." It may be a case where they feel that they want to build another relationship and want some advice with regards to how they build the relationship to maybe put some together to have enough volume to do a small mill — that sort of thing. Those types of pieces of advice would obviously be available. That's not neces- sarily…. It doesn't have to come from here.

It can come from other consultants. [1455] What they were looking for is, is there a vehicle that you could create that would allow this to happen so that they could, you know, achieve capacity over time? Initially, they might start out by saying: "We want to do the planning, and we'll do the reforestation and the cutting, but we're really not the people who, we think, have the capacity to sell th e w o o d . " S o t h e y g o d o w n that road. Over time they build relati onships, with the help of B.C.

Timber Sales, to where they're able to go more marketing direct, or they build long-term contractual relationships. What it is, really, is to give them one more tool to help them build capacity. B. Simpson: In this joint venture relationship, will the first nations get access to any additional potential wood through B.C. Timber Sales? The term "joint ven- ture" suggests that both sides are benefiting. So can a first nation then supplement the timber or the volume it has in its forest and range agreements with B.C. Timber Sales if they happen to be operating in the same area, or whatever the case may be?

Is there an opportunity here for a first nation to supplement their volume? Hon. R. Coleman: No. This doesn't have anything to do with that. If they wanted to supplement their volume, they could bid on the wood like anybody else. B. Simpson: With respect to B.C. Timber Sales' part of this, will they be cost recovery or cost plus? Hon. R. Coleman: Each deal is going to be different. It really is cost recovery, though. It's really to build a relationship that's beneficial to the people who have forest and range opportunities, and first nations.

In some cases they may come and want to do a revenue share, which would cover costs, and maybe B.C. Timber Sales could benefit, if they keep the costs down, I suppose. We haven't done one of these yet. We're just trying to get the authority to do it . I think we'll find out, as each contract evolves individually — because each one has to be separate — how successful we can be. B. Simpson: I want to be crystal-clear about this because it goes to my next questions. Is the possibility there for B.C.

Timber Sales to become a consulting firm for first nations in which they are doing more than cost recovery — that they are actually d e r i v i n g a n i n c o m e from providing a service to first nations? The minister has already admitted that it doesn't need to be restricted to first nations. It can go beyond first nations — woodlots, community forests. A lot of the community forests are very tiny, and it's going to be very difficult for them to ramp up and have capacity and absorb all of the costs associated with the plan- ning, the maintenance, the silviculture and everything else.

TUESDAY, MARCH 11, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 10441 Can they come to B.C. Timber Sales as well? The minister has already indicated that that's a possibility. So are we actually, by th ese two small amendments, making it possible for B.C. Timber Sales now to become a forestry consulting company to smaller tenure hold- ers in which they will derive incremental revenue from that, beyond the first nations? Hon. R. Coleman: No. It's not the intent at all for them to become a consulting company and make money on this. We will set a direction specifically to the company, to B.C.

Timber Sales, with regards to where this should be applied. It's not beyond the realm that maybe a community forest would come in, but I would suspect that we will have a certain amount of capacity available within B.C. Timber Sales to do this. We're not going to go out and build additional staffing an d stresses on our people on top of this. The intent is really to see if we can help with some- thing that we've been asked to help with, quite frankly. We'll see by each individu al agreement.

It would probably go into the Treasury Board process, and those questions would be asked each time one of these came through. But it is not the intent to have this become a consulting company. It's the intent to be able to have them work with first nations for the benefit of the land base, to move the wood that everybody refers to as a piece of some wood that they'd like to see actually come to market. B. Simpson: It's actually what everybody refers to as the black hole that they want to see coming into market. No question that it needs to come in there. In order for me to understand this, who asked for this?

It strikes me that there are consulting foresters who work all over British Columbia who provide this service to first nations. [1500] If B.C. Timber Sales is going to be doing it at a cost recovery level, then are they not going to be effectively undercutting consulting foresters — in fact, the minister has one on this round table — who have made a point of taking their business and orienting it specifically and explicitly to assisting first nations to do this? If I've got the ability as a first nation to go to B.C.

Timber Sales and get this nice little service on a cost re- covery basis, where they're not having to bear the capital costs or not having to bear rent and all of that stuff and not trying to return some investment to whoever the shareholders are in that company…. Am I not under- mining a whole bunch of consulting foresters who have spent a lot of time working on relationships with first nations by giving B.C. Timber Sales the ability to do this work with first nations? Who asked for this? Is it an area of the province where there aren't consulting foresters? Hon. R.

Coleman: We're not going to push consult- ants out of the business. Th at's not the intent here whatsoever. Maybe I described it poorly earlier. My apologies. The member asks: who asked for this? Well, the B.C. First Nations Forestry Council spoke to me about this. First nations have spoken t o m e a b ou t i t a s i n d i - vidual communities. The member referred to the black hole of wood.

People in industry have actually said: "Is there some way you can facilitate a way that this could move even better?" We may find, as we come through how we price this in the future, with regards to the wood and with the discussions that are taking place and that are coming forward to the processes that govern, which I talked about earlier, with the committee and Treasury Board and cabinet and what have you with the FROs…. Some of this may disappear, but it was just a request from them in meetings with me that we look at something like this.

I think it's probably the ca pacity on the sales side as much as anything. The only di fference would be that if we're selling it, we can do something with the silviculture liability, which allows them to go do their replanting and create those jobs within the first nation. But there's no intention to go into the "consulting industry." If there was something that came in with regards to planning or something, more than likely, we wouldn't be using our staff.

We would actually point them in the direction of the people in the area who could do that work and work with them, simply because we don't have the capacity to become a consulting company on top of everything else we do. We are very good at selling wood in a unique way, as we can put it up for sale and bid. We're good at that, and that's something they would like to see — helping them with moving it and then acquiring whatever benefit and jobs and economic opportunities out of that that they can. B. Simpson: Well, part of the black hole is B.C.

Tim- ber Sales sales in certain areas of the province, where we get serious no-bids. And we get difficulty getting wood out the door from B.C. Timber Sales as well. So the black hole isn't just restricted to first nations. [1505] Again, this gets fuzzier for me, not clearer. The minister now says that B.C. Timber Sales, for example, may just point to others. Well, you wouldn't need this act if that were the case, because there's money flowing in and out. You're enabling B.C. Timber Sales to come to Treasury Board and request the ability to flow money in and out for purposes other than just simply B.C.

Timber Sales sales. Let me try a specific example. If band X in an area wants to not continue to pay consulting fees to the con- sulting foresters that they 've had…. They don't have internal capacity; they've us ed an external capacity. They've got a good gig here now if they can come to B.C. Timber Sales and get B.C. Timber Sales to be in- volved in the planning and selling of their timber and maybe pick up some of the silviculture obligations, as the minister has pointed out. It's a major cost reduction for them to do that through B.C. Timber Sales.

Isn't that then taking over the role of those consult- ing foresters? First off, is that possible that I can walk

10442 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, MARCH 11, 2008 away from m y consu lting for esters, g o to B . C . Tim ber Sales and ask B.C. Timber Sales to do this function for me instead of the consulting foresters I had? Hon. R. Coleman: No. The answer to the question is no. First of all, we're not going to get in the way of any contractual obligations that exist between anybody and first nations. This is really about the fact that first na- tions have said to us: "Is there a way that we could have a relationship with someone like B.C.

Timber Sales to pursue some business practices that support government objectives?" Government objectives would be that the FROs would bring economic stability and opportunity to first nations communities where they are. There are 149 of them around the province. Subject to the approval of Treasury Board, they would have to be closely aligned with the programs and mandates of B.C. Timber Sales as they exist today. Basically, that's what this allows it to do. This isn't about us becomi ng the consultant for first nations. It's about us being a vehicle they could use if they want to sell their wood.

When I referred to silvi- culture, sometimes when we, as the member knows…. Cuts come with silviculture liabilities. Part of that rela- tionship could be that the fi rst nations want to take on the reforestation so that they could have the jobs for their community. I don't see any reason why we couldn't arrange that as part of a sale for them, but we're not going to get into stepping in where consultants are today. We're actually just saying that this is an opportunity to move your wood.

Actually, what may happen is that some consult- ants will say to first nations: "As we do this and get this done, we now have a vehicle where we can auction your wood versus you running around trying to find somebody to buy each stick of timber. You might be able to put it up for auction and sell it." And that may be a benefit to them. I guess the best description is us trying to see if we can do something a little different that will assist the first nations with the FROs, if they wish to. They don't have to. I mean, they can go whichever route they want, and some will.

But some have also said that because of their capacity, they would like to have a relationship with someone like B.C. Timber Sales, who oftentimes in some of the more remote areas of the province have the synergy on the ground that nobody else has. There's nobody else there. I mean, they are the organization that has the other cutblocks, other than the major licensees. B. Simpson: Were the ABCFP and the consulting foresters associated with the ABCFP consulted on this? Hon. R. Coleman: I'm told by my staff that we con- sulted with industry, but not that organization directly. B.

Simpson: Again, just a clarification. I get the fact that the minister is talking about what B.C. Timber Sales does on the sales side of it, but I'm confused by the comments around: if the first nations want the silviculture jobs, we can work with B.C. Timber Sales to get them the silviculture jobs. My understanding on a fo rest range agreement is that they already have access to the silviculture jobs. They don't need any special relationship with B.C. Timber Sales to have those. [1510] Is the minister talking about incremental silvicul- ture jobs on B.C. Timber Sales lots?

If not, I don't un- derstand where silviculture jobs have anything to do with what we're doing in this portion of the bill. Hon. R. Coleman: You're right. They do have the sil- viculture liability. But when I was describing this — and I just maybe clarified it a bit with my staff….

If they came in and said: "We want to sell this block, and we don't want the silviculture liability either, so make sure you put it in your price that the silviculture liability is covered, and then you guys take care of that…." That means they could go outside and hire a contractor and replant the trees based on what they got from the wood because it would include that liability in the cost of the auction. Conversely, they could come in and say: "We want you to sell the wood, but we want to do the silvicul- ture. We would like to be paid for it as a result of the sale.

So the price you get out of it for silviculture now comes back to us so we can plant." That's the nuance there, I guess. That's the best I can describe it for the member. Bu t it really is that this amendment is to enable these guys to pursue some innovative business practices to support government objectives. That's what it is. It's government objectives. They're not going out to pursue a separate private sector objective.

They're going out to pursue government objectives that are closely aligned with the program's mandated objectives, which are to make sure that the purchase and sale and the auctioning of wood support the market pricing system, among other things. What this is to do is enhance the ability to move wood to market in a relationship with an organization like a first nation that has an agreement with government and that has expressed to us that they're having difficulty getting to the point where they can move the wood. They would like to work with somebody to do it, and one of the groups they identified was B.C.

Timber Sales. B. Simpson: I get that this is trying to address a government objective, which is to address the black hole because of the pressure to get that first nations wood out there. The issue ar ound that is whether or not the first nations have capacity. So you address the capacity issue by making B.C. Timber Sales skill sets available to them. I get that. But there's a whole bunch of private sector consult- ants out there who also have a private sector objective, and they're just ramping up, trying to assist and facili- tate first nations in getting that wood out to the marketplace.

I would see this as a direct conflict to that. That's the point I'm making.

TUESDAY, MARCH 11, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 10443 In order for me to understand the Treasury Board component of it…. Since I've used band X, let's go to b a n d Y . T h e y g o t o B . C . T i m b e r S a l e s i n T e r r a c e , a n d they have a 20,000-cubic-metre cut this year under their FRO. They say to BCTS: "Let's go to the most simple way we can. We want you to manage that for us. We don't want to have anything to do with it. We just want a cheque at the end of the day." B.C.

Timber Sales then does all the work and so on, puts it out to bid, and they net, after all costs and expenses, $10 a cubic metre. That's $200,000. Do they then just cut the cheque to the first nation for $200,000? And is that why you need the Treasury Board compo- nent? It's the in-and-out co mponent of it, where they're absorbing costs that are not theirs — they're technically the first nations' — and then they're having to cut a cheque to first nations for the residual. Is that why Treasury Board is involved in this whole process? [1515] Hon. R.

Coleman: Treasury Board is an oversight board for all finances in government. Basically, decisions on each one of these, as it is structured right now, would be that any new expenditures falling under this category will require a supporting regulation but be subject to Treasury Board oversight. That basically means that Treasury Board gets to watch what goes on — right? — and actually has to be reported to. What this does is allow, basically, crediting of the dollars in and dollars out.

The revenue that's collected, for instance, on stumpage today comes into general revenue, and expenses that are paid out to or costs that are due to a Crown go back to the Crown. This also allows, though, for them to apply for expenditures to be able to pay their bills with regards to achieving that revenue. This would also allow for the facilitation of the money to go to B.C. Timber Sales from stumpage to be paid to the first nation, the client. That's why the Treasury Board relationship. I know that sounded convoluted and complicated.

Believe me, sitting on Trea sury Board I know that sometimes that's the way it can be. It really is about enabling regulation to be able to do what you're trying to do — receive the revenue into the government, have the revenue come to B.C. Timber Sales for them to take their expenses off, and then send it to the client. B. Simpson: My apologies to the minister. I think that's what I said. That's what I was asking — if that's what enabling legislation was doing. Effectively, what they are doing is incurring costs on behalf of another entity — not their costs, which is under their current mandate just now.

In this case, they'll incur the costs on behalf of the first nations or the woodlot or the com- munity forester or whoever comes to them. They will then accrue revenue, as well, as a result of that, which is not their own and which at some point they have to cut a cheque to. You have to have a reason for them cutting a cheque out, and it has to be related to that activity. Again, it still strikes me that they are replacing what consulting fo resters do all over this province.

I'm going to be curious, when I talk to some of my consulting forester friends who specialize in first nations, what they think ab out this bill, considering they weren't consulted with, as a result of the minister's own admission today. How will B.C. Timber Sales report out on this, when part of the regulation of reporting on this is a separate item in their quarterly and annual reports? [S. Hammell in the chair.] Hon. R. Coleman: Let's be clear. It's not mandatory that every time we do a

section of a bill, we consult with the world. In actual fact we don't, because you would never get any legislation done. The reality is that they have their financial report- ing requirements, as the member knows. They have their financial statements. They are subject to estimates of the House, and they're al so subject to the Treasury Board oversight on each one of these. That's additional reporting that's put on them. So the record is really clear, there is no intention and no direction intended to come from government to B.C. Timber Sales to do this for woodlots or community for- ests or anybody else.

The intent is to be able to have the legislation so that we can deal with an issue with regards to what was asked of us by the first nations. But in writ- ing it we've written it so that it doesn't just prejudice against one opportunity over another, because it may not just be an FRO. There may be a first nation that has a non-replaceable forest licence who also wants, in con- junction with their FRO, to do some work. [1520] We've left some flexibility in there for that, but the reality is that this is really focused on the issue that the member and I have talked about on other occasions.

It's not the intention to go out there and take over the consulting forestry jobs of British Columbia. It's to have a vehicle for them to be able to sell their wood through, which they don't have today. But they have that oppor- tunity to do it so they can move the wood and get some advice from B.C. Timber Sales while they're doing it. B. Simpson: Well, I know it's not mandatory that you consult with anybody on any piece of legislation. There's a difference between mandatory and what's appropriate and what's right.

In fact, this bill is not the full bill that it was intended to be, because the range portions had to come out because of poor consultation with the range folks and th e B.C. Cattlemen's Associa- tion. Because of bad consultation, that piece is not in this legislation just now. It should be mandatory, if the government is going to infringe on what a business opportunity is in the private sector….

If they're going to replace that with a possible replacement within the public sector, which does not bear the same costs, and particularly this gov- ernment, which has been going around and farming out all kinds of work…. Pr icewaterhouseCoopers does all kinds of work, at a fee-for-service, that used to be done within the Ministry of Forests.

10444 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, MARCH 11, 2008 So I think in that case, it may not be mandatory, but it sure would be nice if we knew that the Association of B.C. Forest Professionals and their consulting foresters had been consulted on this. But my question was more explicit than that. B.C. Timber Sales reports out on a whole bunch of catego- ries of work and services that they do. Their annual report is very specific, and we had a discussion in last estimates about breaking out some of that even more so that silviculture obligations and various other things were transparent.

Given that this is now a new effective function or at least a licence to do something different, and it has cost implications, would it not be appropriate to have them report that out? So my question is: will they be report- ing out this particular part of their function so that people can track how much volume from first nations is moving through B.C. Timber Sales — what kinds of activities B.C. Timber Sales is doing on behalf of these?

You know, the minister has talked a lot in the de- bates over the last couple of years about intention, but legislation sets up possibilities that go beyond what the intent of the government of the day is. So over time this could evolve, and it could be a service to a whole bunch of people. In the report, in the regulations and in the guidelines governing B.C. Timber Sales, will they be required to report out explicitly about this activity? Hon. R. Coleman: W e w i l l l o o k a t t h a t a s p a r t o f the reporting-out. I can't comment on it today. This is an amendment to a particular

section of the act, and maybe when BCTS comes through estimates, we could canvass what we think is an appropriate reporting mechanism for the member. We should also recognize, though, that first nations hire forest consultants who will actually look at this as an opportunity for some place for their clients to go and do some additional relationship with regards to the movement of wood. So I don't think this is a negative for forest consultants and professional foresters at all.

The ones I've spoken to over the years tell me that they think there needs to be a vehicle for some of the first nations to move this wood as well. They would do that on behalf of their clients working with B.C. Timber Sales, so this is just the vehicle. Really, what this is, is trying to let B.C. Timber Sales be a vehicle for the sale of wood, which they're not allowed to be a vehicle for today under the legislation. [1525] B. Simpson: I'm all for first nations being able to move their wood.

It's whether or not the due diligence has been done — that this is a good vehicle to do that — because as the minister should be aware, consulting foresters have been hit very hard with the degree of corporate concentration that's gone on and the collapse of the industry down to a few licensees. If this ends up being punitive towards them, then they won't be that happy. So what I'm trying to make sure of is that we've done the due diligence and that this isn't going to be a further insult to that group, many of whom have already gotten out of the business or have had to find other means of employment.

Again, with respect to B.C. Timber Sales reporting out on that, I will canvass that in estimates debate. One final question on this with respect to the Treasury Board approval process, because these are going to be individual decisions that are made. What does that look like? Is it a blanket kind of approval? Do you have to get approval on a case-by-case basis through a process? If you have to get it case by case, what kind of time frame are we looking at for this to go through the due process with Treasury Board? Hon. R.

Coleman: The basic concept gets put into reg, which enables us to do this, so then they can move on it. If they get someone that comes in, they would advise the chair of Treasury Board: "Here it is; this is what the deal is." That really isn't an onerous process. Basically, if it's under a certain value, the chair of Treasury Board can approve it. Then it's approv ed afterwards by Treasury Board in a supplementary report, basically, to Treasury Board. It's not something, in my experience, that I think would be particularly long.

Section 11 approved. On

section 12. B. Simpson: I just want to clarify

section 12 with respect to the news release and some of the minister's comments in second reading. This is the part that's sup- posed to ensure that "forest licensees consistently report to government in a timely manner all cost information necessary to support the mark et pricing system." Is it correct that that's what this

section is supposed to be doing? Hon. R. Coleman:

Section 136 requires a person who harvests, buys or sells manufactured timber products to report specified information to the ministry — right? In subsections (1.1) and (2) the reference to "the regional manager" as the receiver of information is being updated to "a person designated by the minister" so that we can bring the information quickly into a more central body. The change is being made to reflect today's electronic submission of data. I think that at one time people re- ported everything in.

Now they should be able to go on line and fire it in to a central place so that we get our information more quickly. The amendment to subsecti on (1.2) ensures that the market pricing system is fully supported by updating the list of information required to be reported to in- clude the cost of transportation of harvested timber and the cost of forest management administration. In addition, the description of the type of sales informa- tion that must be reported is broadened.

Basically, this amendment just improves our stumpage reporting requirements by providing greater certainty to the Crown, and we'll be able to obtain pric- ing information necessary to support the softwood

TUESDAY, MARCH 11, 2008 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 10445 lumber agreement. The am endment would also allow the ministry to adapt new initiatives — e.g., bioenergy, pricing methodologies and those sorts of things. [1530] What we do with the market pricing system…. It's a living document. It's a living process. We update it. Basically, this is to change it so that it'll be modernized for quicker processing of information by allowing us to not have to always send it to the regional manager but maybe to a central body that's designated by the minister.

Whenever we do any chan ges to the market pricing system, of course, we also go and do consultation with the United States to make sure that they understand what we're doing so it doesn't attract a challenge with regards to how we're collecting our data. B. Simpson: I'll take that as a nice, long explanatory yes — that that's what it applies to. Some questions around that. The minister made the comment even stronger than what's in the explanatory notes, because this amendment changes from having to go to the regional manager to the ability to go to some- one as designated by the minister.

The minister actually used the term "central body." Does this enable the min- ister to set up an entity like PricewaterhouseCoopers to do this data collection and to drive the market pricing system independent of B.C. Forest Service? Hon. R. Coleman: No, it's not, hon. Member. This is just to align us with current practices, because that infor- m a t i o n i s n o w c o m i n g i n t o the ministry, and it's being managed. This basically aligns it with current practices, because in some areas we're already doing this. B. Simpson: I just want to go back to the minister's comments before about intent.

Now the bill just simply says "to a person designated by the minister." Is there a constraint on a person designated by the minister that it has to be within the ministry, or could at some time — because it's not going through the regional managers; it's not going through the Ministry of Forests' functionary in the region — the minister, or a minister, decide that the person designated is a third party outside the ministry that's going to drive the market pricing system for them as a separate entity? Hon. R. Coleman: In theory, yes. I guess the person designated by the minister, I'm told, could be anybody.

That's not the intent, and it's certainly not the plan with regards to what this is. This is for us to be able to be concurrent to current practices, to align this so the information coming into revenue branch, which is the body that receives all of this, can come directly to revenue branch so that they can do the calculations for the market pricing system. B. Simpson: I'm happy the minister clarified that it may not be the intent but that it's possible. As we've seen in the Ministry of Small Business, we have farmed out what used to be govern ment functions. We collect now through a third party.

So it's quite conceivable that at some point, if you think that there are efficien- cies to be gained, that this no longer becomes a minis- try service. It becomes a service to a third party. We'll canvass that in estimates by how much money is flowing through PricewaterhouseCoopers these days that used to be line functions of the Ministry of Forests. We'll be looking at whether or not there are actually efficiencies there to be gained. Let me just clarify. Does this

section of the act apply, as stated, to B.C. Timber Sale s with respect to all of the things that have to be re ported for establishing the market pricing system? Does this apply to B.C. Timber Sales as a licensee? [1535] Hon. R. Coleman: The timber sales licensees have to report to B.C. Timber Sales, who have to report it to revenue branch. I want to try and comfort the member on this. There's a comfort with th e United States with our revenue branch and the relationship built on the market pricing system that I wouldn't tinker with.

Any change that would ever be to where this information was col- lected and processed outside the ministry would be, first of all, subject to, I think, a significant discussion with the partners to the softwood lumber agreement prior to anybody ever considering doing anything other than what we're doing. We're staying with the revenue branch. The reve- nue branch will do this. We just want the ability for the information to come directly to them so that they can accrue the information in a more efficient manner to be able to be stronger on their calculations for what they need to do. B.

Simpson: It's my job, as the minister well knows, t o b e a p a r t - t i m e c o n s p i r a c y t h e o r i s t o n b e h a l f o f t h e people of British Columbia. Interjections. B. Simpson: Well, hopefully, it's only part-time — part-time working with my constituents in helping them do their stuff. We could argue the point of whether or not this would make people at the softwood lumber table com- fortable or not comfortable. One of the things they're not comfortable with is administ rative changes or political interference in the market pricing system.

Putting it out to a party that's independent of government, a private sector third party, might actually give them comfort. It would be interesting to see what their response to that is. I j u s t w a n t e d t o m a k e s u r e t h a t I u n d e r s t o o d t h a t that possibility does exist. We've seen this government move down that path. We have taken a lot of things that used to be government functions and put them out to third parties — some to the benefit of British Co- lumbians, some not. I want to be clear about the B.C. Timber Sales piece.

The reason I ask it is that the minister should be well aware that part of the problem with the market pricing

10446 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, MARCH 11, 2008 system is that people don't believe that B.C. Timber Sales books all their true costs. I'm curious as to whether there are any discuss ions about this whole list of costs being booked by B.C. Timber Sales so that B.C. Timber Sales is actually be aring the same and the true costs of every other licensee that's out there. That's a complaint about B.C. Timber Sales — that they don't have to book all the costs, as every other licensee does. Hon. R. Coleman: The cost data from B.C.

Timber Sales that would come in would be what their cost of road construction is and that sort of thing that they do. That data would come in, and the person who buys it has to submit data with regards to their cost of harvest and silviculture and all the rest of it — whatever is part of that equation. So they all have to submit data. It's all brought into the revenue br anch and the economic and trade branch — two branches of government, one in Finance and one in the Ministry of Forests — that then collate this information and put it into the formula that is the market pricing system. B.

Simpson: Again, I think that's an area — it's not addressed in this bill — that is causing people some problems and complaints, because they don't believe those costs line up. For example, forest-managed admini- stration is a cost that's not accounted for, necessarily, in B.C. Timber Sales pricing that is having to be reported by the licensees. So they see that as a differential. [1540] Let me go to

section (

c) of this bill where it says: "'or products derived from timber' after 'related to timber.'" Is "products derived from ti mber" the ability to open the way that we cost our system for things like carbon or chemicals or energy? The minister mentioned energy as a possibility. Is it the thought that if you do it in this general term — "products derived from timber" — there's this whole range of emerging products now that you want to capture under this and drive it back into your pricing system? Hon. R. Coleman: This just widens the net to the information we're going to collect.

It doesn't necessarily go to what the member describes. It widens the net, because some people could say: "We don't have to pro- vide you information because of products we derive from timber." We're saying that we actually want all the information so that we ca n have the best amount of data possible for us to b

Document details

Collection	British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	H0311pm-06
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	H0311pm 06
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	01fbb647b5837620ef27356cb923c951ad685580

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