VOL. 1 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD 3:00 p.m . - 6:00 p.m. MONDAY, JUNE 7, 1982 NO. 17

June 7, 1982 The House met at 3:00 P. M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): MR. SPEAKER: MR. TULK: Tape 983 PK - 1 Order, please! ORAL QUESTIONS The han. member for Fogo. Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr. Power), and it concerns a measure recently taken in the most recent Budget.

In that Budget there were a number of tax measures, and one of those tax measures was an increase in the royalty or the tax paid to the government by wood contractors or paper companies who cut various types of wood on Crown lands, that is lands and forest con­ trolled by the government, in other words, stumpage, Mr. Speaker. Would the minister tell the House what the rates were before and after the Budget for various types of wood - cutting, that is, for lumber, pulp wood, construction timber, fuel wood and so on? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. POWER: Mr.

Speaker, the stumpage rates increased in the recent Budget basically have two categories, a category where we supply the roads, supplied by the qovernment, at government expense, and also the stumpage rate that is affected directly by whether they are harvesting to salvage the spruce budworm-killed stands or whether it is basically healthy stands. The rates before the Budqct were $2.00 and $3.00 respectively depending on whether the government supplied roads or not, and they are now $5.16 and $8.12, I think it is. MR. TULK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. 2;j9fl

June 7, 1982 MR. SPEA¥ER (Russ sll} l'-1R .. TULK: T.:tpe 983 PK - 2 '.ll1e l>on . member for l'ogo. Mr. Speak er , I am glad that the mi .nister !'Ointed out one larCJe incre·:tSC,<inn that wilS the inc~~ase i~ the royalty or stunQag2 fa~ pulpwood. ~\s :...~he r:<lr!:1.s1:.c:: is ~·.JC]l awar-e, fHJ:p\7occ~ CE~::ing larq9iy :1el1._)s i:2 c p ·:)t:L -=-•2- ,JJPiJ l ~-·rs j n ;..:l< Sin ess , aJH1 the int~rease h2Ls ~een,~s he sai<~. ?rom S7 OC ~() $8.10 to S S-~_8. NF ... L lh~)II-: f\ CrJLi·.- hu;c.1r c:!d !J~.-'1: cent increas.:: .. JV.R. '.ruu::: In othc!r words, lhZ~t is ;1 ----~00 per ceJlt increase, Mr.

Speake~. Would the minister now inform the House what the impact on the pulpwood industry, ane in parcicular th2 export pu lpwood industry, has been as a rt~su.Lt c.:r: l:hat i.nc ::(!c.sE:: in t::Lx? DicJ he ccnsn:.t his officials or any offjc ~ a J s 'J. ~ the po.per compan ies, <1nd what WiJS tlici~: advice to him? MR. SPEAKGRc The hen. Miniscer of Forest F~esources ar:d La:1ds MR. POWER: Mr.

Speaker, as it relates to Ll1c LJUlt' iiJHl ;'af>CL ~~,,·tu:;L.!·:· .. 111cl Lih.' ::<lWmLJ.i.in'l jr:cJu~:i1·y and the i;"\crease.J. s t.umpage :eGGS, as of course all persons in the Pr~vince ~now there is no stumpage collected on the co~pany lice1ce~ or held limits. These stumpage rates only apply to Ccown lands The affect that they will have buth on the sawmilling industry and the industry generally itself, and certain ly the rates have not increased 400 per cent, the ra~cs are up 260 pe:r. cent from J974, which was the last time s tumpc.ge .rates •.-Je.re increased in t.he Province.

Durinq that time ,from 1974 to the Budget of 1982, the cost of r~er1rs~:.ci.r.i: '!y~i!>~y :::,:J~:.l ~r c·•{: l-1.is F:r. c,-;il~~~~ js lJ.P over JOO per c<:-~nt - t.he vc1luc of ne1.1\rsc1 ... int.. The cost of supplyinq ro \tcls tn -- ~i ... -·f:e [J'.:.'c~ ;()i' ,:..> ·,\)l:(· ~-JL:V L' r:it.neJ~ pc Jr·tjtll ~">i:l\ .vrmi1Jinq L~cCi'"!::::;c~s ·.'~: :-:L~ ~. :n~lJi. n q Ji::;2l'!Ces ~sup ovQr 200 p~r cent fo1: t.he cost o[ !.

June 7, 1982 Tape No. 984 SD - l MR. POWER: supplying roads. Our increase is one which is certainly in line with the stumpage rate,and less than the stumpage rates in Gll other parts of Atlantic Canada; in line with not only the stumpage increases in the Budget but the fact that sawmillinrJ licences have ,;ot increased. And the fact that this government took the bold initiative of not having any sales tax charged on any sawmilling equipment, we think are ways of stimulating the already depressed sawmilling market as it relates to the export of pulp in this Province.

There is one contractor who has a fairly extensive contract for the export of pulpwood and because that is being harvested Jll<li nl y from salvage lots that we have identified 1 where most of it is bud-killed,and where we certainly do not wish to jeopardize the export contract he has. I have talked to the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) and government will be negotiating with that person. The stumpage rates certainly will allowed him to continue to export woo6 and keep persons ~mployed in the Province,and certainly at the same time, Mr.

Speaker, to allow for a reasonable, fair return to the people of this Province in the form of stumpage for a resource which it is being used. MR. TULK: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Supplementary, the hon. member for Foqo. MR. TULK: I do not know whether the minister is aware of it or not,but today,and starting last weekend 1 we are witnessing perhaps the shutdown of the export pulpwood industry in this Province,and in particular in the districts of Lewisporte, Twillingate and Fogo. Those itre lhe areas that I am particularly aware of.

According to the people in that area ,the increase has been from $2.00 to $9.00. He says that he has spoken to the Minister of of Finance and if this situation is not cleared up we 2: i .~,) 'J u

Ju::.c 7, 1982 rllape No. 984 SD - 2 !YiR. '.!'lJLK: are goin~ to sec 200 to 300 - perha ps :oO-pcop!<~ :JU ': of viod; in that auca. rl,hc shutclO'tJI"l has begun. No w would the minister tell the House iust ~xactly what th 3t stumpage rate is going to be, that royalty .r:c:;·~c. fn--:- L: 11ose pe:op-~_c.:~ ;· ~'.R .. S i_-'E:\Y;.,R (~·!u~:s _ l _ lLc; hGr: . M.;nistct· (JL :··on.'~il Resources a1:d Lanas JY:R. PO\AJER: Mr. Speaker, as I have said, the s~cumpage r.:.ce :1as gone ..C:corr-. in that given e:.r2c 1 of Lud-killcd salvaqc haP:cs tir,g from $2 . 0 0 to $5 .l n, U ,a t, 'Jfr.

Snc .'al:e r, is if VJ(: ,:-trc :--lllr;qlyj nq the roncl to ; 11~-:Ll : rcsourc~c? :C have talk<2d tl> the Minister o£ Finance (DI. Colhns). !•Je will certainl y ~o all that is necessary to accommodate the exporter h') -,o i~a3 iJe cmJtrilct Eor expOJ·ti nq the bud- i; i. I. 1 cd c Ll1dJc; 1·. f'.t'cl I ant 'J.Lc'd Lo sv.y, 11i.r.

SpC.'JI·~ cot: , ll!clt maybe it is a good time to take notice that the policies of this gover nmdnt ~s it relates to hv.rvesting of bud-killed l::i n1bcr, i.loL·it ru,- ioc:ul _ir-,duc;t_L-y i ,., this l'n,vi nee cllld ror · expor~,has been successful an6,according to the member fo~ Fogo (Mr. Tulk~ is emrloying as much as 300 to 500 people. SOME HON . l'lE.'·lBERS : deere , 1'"'1eG :r:. tV.H . TULK : Suppleme ntar y, Mr. Speaker. MR. S r• 1-:Ai(Gl: ]_•'ii1L1 i :-H ,li_.-t-- llL!lHCrllC. !l:-y r t ll~ /1u n. member fo.c S'~1LJO. HR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, the minister has stLll not answered the question.

Now in a t~lex that was sent to some of his directors in regional offices in this Province ,. he indica ted that on access roads whec-e - or his deputy minister indicated- the price was from $2.00 (:.n :;~?.. 00 :~·~...; !. CC~1.·c. ~-( lt - ~::.:I Vt:tt'..•d t:.j ~~~~ ~t.: l·, j L !1,1;: 2 ,, • ,J

June 7, 1982 Tape No. 985 NM ~ 1 MR. TULK: now gone from $8 to $10 per cord. Now the minister is saying $5.16. But.I tell him that where he provides an access road, the budgetary measures say that they will pay $8.10 to $9.18,I believe it,is per cord. Now what is the new rate that he is indeed going to charge if he is indeed going to change the rate? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. POWER: Mr.

Speaker, I think I have answered three times already that we have initiated new stumpage rates in this Province as a budgetary measure and also as a way of getting a fair return on a resource being utilized in this Province by persons in the Province itself.

As it relates to the companies, we are certainly hoping that the new stumpage rates that we have for Crown limits will be ones that will form a basis for discussion with the paper cam;:Janies, cs"'Jecially Abitibi-Price in the next week or two as it relates to their land tenure, where they now pay no stumpage rates,and,under the new forest management agreements being initiated by this government with the companies,stumpage will be charged and certainly we would like to qct close to the new stumpage rates of $8.00 rather than the old stumpage rate of $2.00 or $3.00.

As it relates to the exporter, as I say, I cannot give the member exactly what the stumpage rate is going to be for this one particular contract of who :1as an export contract. I will say that we will be discussing it with the Department of Finance and certainly everything will be done to keep Newfoundlanders working in the export of pulpwood as \1/e have done in the last twelve months. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. 2:JJ

June 7, 1982 Tape !'<o. 985 NM - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Russel~) '!'he ~on. Leader of ·the Oppos i tio:1. MR. NK'\RY: 1'1r., Speaker, a supplemc:nt.ar"· 1'Jh cY) the hon. qonc~emr.'Jl :::·8t-_:"Cs ~-o 1'0t~r rciJc!s~~ .. is th2 hor'! ~ mini3tt ?.!~ ref :!!~~.:r >, tG roz .tds that ar~ SO per c~nt funded - ~liT:. TULF: Yes. ----- l1B .~ !·,JC:i \RY': - ~.Ju.id ~:o~ by Lh~1 CJovG.rnmen t of Ca~ada? ls that ':)..Lr .coads': t~1e bon .. qentlemaL is talking about? M:_q.. SPE1\I(ER: The h~r. Minister of rarest Resources and Lands. Jvi.H. PO\'IER: r-1L- ..

Sr_J.._:a.!·~cr urn L~l Lkj 11q ,1boul our roads"being built ir. and Eor the Province o£ Newfoundland and for the peopie of Newfo~ndland. r,JR. NEARY: h:,·. Speaker, a supplemer:t.ary. MH. SPEli.KER: The hon. Lea de r of th e Opp os ition. NiR. NEARY; 1'-'tr. Spc~kQr, -i li~1dt? r-stan{l from Lhc' answers qiven to rny colleague, the member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk), wh(> is asking some very good questions on this particular matter which seems to be devclo~inq into a bit of a ~risis,thnt h~ wos made recommer.dations i:c the l'•linistej~ of Finance (Dr. Colljns) in connectio~ with one larqe operator.

Would the hon. gentleman care to tell the \-!~)cse v·l;1at tJ-.ese recommendations involveu MR. rl'ULI<: l\11cl 11ho tiE• O')Criltor :ts. l"1R. b1GJI.I<Y ! - and (:c t:1n o-_)e ra tor is '? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. !VIR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, I do not care at this time to re1euse the name of the operator.

Obviously there LS a ffiCll:LI.:.'r: Of- S<Hlll' ncqu!:iutllHJ bCl".WCC!! lhc n~·LSOilS i11 l·:tti<JI)~ that he has a cm; ·trc.::t with to supply pulp1vood at a certain CJiver. price. l \vill SR} 7 tha~ uecause l~ rel3tes to the Department of f'or.estry ,and lJ.:'Ci\use it is also ., budqet'ary li1atte:c, r bc\vc talked t.:o the !Vlinister of :r.inance r we wil1 be .: ·.::cr_n~;ncrJati:1g this p:::rscn t.o k.C:CI--' T'.Je·.-r~:ou~dlcln·Jcr~:; employed_ / : ·.!

.... _ June 7, 1982 Tape No. 985 N?-1 - 3 MR . POWER : And I just ,.,ish the same could be s aid for ot.her qovernments which hav.e some control and tli rcct 1 f feet on ·ti1El sawmillin g industri· oarticularly as it rela tcs to hiqh interest rates , whic 1 1-)ay<:! nn>i:-t- ." •·•<>J.l PVP.t'vonP.. in the sa\vmilling industry in Newfoundland, if not in a state of bankruptcy then certainly near bankruptcy . MR. NF.AlW : A supplementary, Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER (Russe ll) : A supplementary, the hon. Leader of the Opposition . MR . NEARY : Mr .

Speaker , is the hon. gentleman tellin g the House that he made a recommendation to the Minister of Fina nce (Dr. Collins) to accommodate one operator only? Would not .:~11 the operators be in the same boat? And while the hon . gentleman is on his feet,would he also indicate that this retail sales tax e xemptio n that they are giving on the purchase of ne\o~ equipment ~ nd so forth , they are giving it in 2JSR

June 7,1 982 Ta pe No. 986 ah-1 MR."'EARY: on the ot!1er-- is one ~and and taking it away that not t~e way it works out? MR .SPEAKEh (Rus sEl ll. and Lands. tvir POt,f~H: --- ---- -···- flon. 1nin ister of Por~s t R~soucc c s P·'lr. ~;pc:ct1:.c: r-, the r·c :~l'CTH~ tn be c. lJ.c!~ oi~ ur;detSI:i:1!ld::_1 ~~ _i_r _ .:he ranks opl~Jo.;:_:;~ c.2 os Lt rclat.2s ~c hcu c.l-t!._; :or.2s:: indus 1:ry is wor1<:inq 3nd func:tioninq in Newfound:anJ in 1932.

There is certainly a ver-y large and signi fica1 1t dj fferenca ~s it relates to the managereent of the resource tcday ~han it has been at any time in the last seventy-five or eighty years. Our <JOVer:nment, ceri:<:,inly since 1974, has m,'l<Je bolcl in_it.iiltivr•s. in 1974 -.,ith 'l'rw l·'ur:·~';L L,:JJ!LI ('1<JIJZI'Il~lliL';il 'l'ctxo:.jun) /1<:L, in 1982 , for ins ·:ance right now in taking away the sales ~ax on ca p it~J. eq0ipmenc Ecr ~aw m j_lls. This year we have chang~d the stumpage rates.

One of the unfortunate side effec~s of changing the stumpage is that certain lo~al, independent pul~wood harvesters may Eecl that they ac:; nm..r in jeopardy ,or: thei1~ business is in icop<li·rJy, because the stn111paqe rates are increased. "t'he stumpaqe rates are hasicQlly p~icl hy the first purchases of wood in ':he Provi;.ce which oftt:x:c:imes is either the two large paper compa~ies themselves,or the person who is doing the Lrokerage for export.

In this case there is one person ·...vbo h;._)S ~CJ/ flt~ t~o nry dcp.:Jitlllcnl <1S j_t rc ldtcs to ex~orc '.•iOOd, anc1 we will certai.nly accollUTlodate the exporting of wood in this Province to a sturnpaqe rate which is fair and just and returns to the people of the Province a fair amount of money for the uses of the resources L-h ~1t \oJL' cont_:rn!. f·1R.TULK: ------- --- HR. SPEM<ER: Mr. SDcake r. r;,c, hon . mcmbel f,_,, Foq u. (_ "I .J

June 7,1982 Tape No . 986 ah-2 MR.TULK : Mr . Speaker, yes · I must tell the Minister of Forest 1~esources and Lands (Mr . Poo;.,er) that there is a lack of understanding in this House . It is beyond me how a minister 1"ould make a recommendation fnr « hudqctary chanqe and then a few days afterwards come bnck and fuddle <:~round with what he is going to revert back to . I want to ask the minister a question: Did the minister have any input in deciding these rates or are they solely the result of the work of the Minister or Finance ( Dr . Collins ) and t~e Premier? ~ WA_RREN : No ans"ler . :-m . 11ooorm : 11r .

Speaker . MR .SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon . member for Port Au Port . MR . IIOODER: Mr . Speaker , I too ~ave a ~uestion rnr the ~1 in i stcr of Pores try (Mr . Power) . Mr . Speaker , the Stephenville mill, the Abitibi-Price mill, that mill, Mr . Speaker, eighty -five per cent of its wood supply t:omcs from Crown land, eighty-five per cent of its wood supply ,which is now subject to the new rate . Would the minister tell me what the effect of the raise in the stumpage fee will be on the Abitibi-Price mill in Stephenv ille? lo\R . SPEAKER : The hon . ttini ster of Forest R<'r>OIITC:<'fl nnrl l.onfls . 2:J~rl

June 7, 1982 Tape 987 EC - 1 MR. PO\'ffiR: Mr. Speaker, the opening of the Abitibi ~ewspaper mill in Newfoundland this year is a significant move by the people of Newfoundland. In order to get that mill reopened, a contract was negotiated and en !.:ereu in to be t\n;c:n the Cov<'rnmcnt o-E Newfound] and anCJ l\bi.t:lbi-J'rice Corporation. Basically, it allows for stumpa.ge ra·t2s to be set for a certain period of time.

Those stumpa;Je rates are subject t:o review in eighteen months time, =tnd we would hope a-t that time that they become subject to newer, higher and fairer returns on the resource for the people of Nev;foundland. MR. HODDER: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : member for P~rt au Port. A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. the MR . HODDER__:_ t'~r. Speaker, is the minister saying that in eighteen months tirre the new rates will come into effect? MR. PO~lER: PlJ{. I~J::AJC{: into effect immediately? MR. POWER: No .

Immcdiatelyr They will come I say in eighteen months time the rates that Abitibi have for Stephenville are subject to review. SOME HON. ME~ERS: Hear, hear: MR. HODDER: Mr . Speaker, on the - ..... J~ l - ;·:r.L '.Vl.r. SJJeal~er. --· Z.~R. !!ODDER: Okay; I will let it go. !·:t\. SPEi,KER: The hon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the minister another g~.:estion. It is my understanding that those stumpage or royalty rates or taxes, whatever you want to call them, clre 0lrcady i.n <=fLeet. 'l'hey l1o.ve been in effect since April lst.

I would like to ask him again, in view of the fact that we are trying to salvage 2 _i .. i ,,

-'- J·une 7, 1982 Tape 987 EC - 2 MR. TULK: a great deal of budworm infested timber in this Province, will he go back to the original rates and will he see that they come off as of April lst and that nobody is charged any more for stumpage rates than they were last year in trying to salvage what in four years is going to be lying on the ground rotten? Will he go back to tp~t original rate? MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. POWER: Mr.

Speaker, there are two rates, one for the harvesting of bud-killed, salvaged timber from designated salvage areas, the other is a royalty rate, stumpage rate for healthy timber being taken from other areas of the Province. We do not intend, as a government, to go back to the stumpage rates which have been in effect since 1974. They are simply not fair, they are not reasonable nor nractical in 1982 to expect the Government of Newfoundland on behalf of its citizens to not get a fair return on a resource that is being used. Our own rates now are still less than in any other part of Atlantic Canada.

Roads are being supplied by the Government of Newfoundland and the Government of Canada under an agreement between our governments. Mr. Speaker, all I can say is that we intend to be fair and just to the exporters who are now exporting wood, Mr. Speaker, again on the initiative of this government,because we went out and sought markets for export of damaged bud-killed timber and it just shows that our policies in forestry are working. SOME HON. MEMBERS: SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! Hear, hear! 21 0 il

June 7, 1982 !1R. TULK: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) -::he mE:~-·11::'er for Fog-o. HR. TULK: 'rape 987 EC -3 A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. Mr. Speaker, I want to ask t.~·.e rJi .~lister a.noUl(3J_· :jucstion on this VJholc t~hinr~!~ ,]nd tha: is, is he e.~~..1are ~vhat the ne·t profit of a local cont~a~:~c·r, say, in tbe Kcrtt1east part of this Province in the districts of Lewisporte, Twillir1gace or rogo was last year? And secondly, will he ~ow send his officials out to consult wirh those people tu see whot type of :::-oyalty or how much of the royalty they can pay? !'!H. SPEAKER: 111H.

POWER: Mr. Minister. Mr. Speaker, if the question is whether I am a~are cf tl1e net profit of any person involved in export, or company involved in expor~ or any bod·:' 2

,Juno 7, 1982 Turc No. 988 MJ ~ 1 MR. C. POWER: involved in sawmilling, I do not really know. I know that this government is not bringing in policies which are going to handicap the industry any further than they have been handicapped. The real problem with the sawmilling industry in Newfoundland is exactly the same as the real problem with the sawmilling industry in British Columbia or any other province of Canada. They simply cannot produce a product and sell it in the market conditions that we presently have in Canada.

And certainly the high interest rates are the most detrimental effect on sawmillers all across Canada in any given province. What we are doing, Mr. Speaker, is trying to relate stumpage rates in 1982 to what they should be. Simply because they have not been changed since l97~,simply shows that this government apparently understands what is happening in rural Newfoundland.

The fact that we do not charge any more sa~es tax on capital equipment, the fact that we have not increased sawmilling licences shows that we are doing our part and we just wish that the other government ~n Canada who has some control ovor· tlw s<Jwmi1linq industry woulc'l do their part .. ::>OM.t: I-ION. Mt:MBBRS: Hear, hear! MR. '1'. LUSH: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAK~R (Russel~): A supplementary, the hon. the member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr.

Speaker, the loggers and the sawmillers are the only people that I know of ~n the country that have to pay a royalty for the harvesting of a renewable resource. To indicate how important it is, this royalty, this stoo1page fee, to these loggers,! remind the minister of a br~ef that was presented to him about a year ago from the Unit 2 ~orestry Associat~on 1which takes in the Bonavista Peninsula and that whole area. One of the measures they mentioned to the 2 'll• ')

.June 7 1 1982 'Td.Pe !'io. 088 [Vj~J 2 MR. T. LUSH Mlnis ter, c1ut r..~f thret.-:-. meastJrcs whicn they ::houqbc \Jere. Vc·ry import01nt, on~ of the mectsutcs tl:tev :T:G!1tj o;'.eci-- 011,~: ·L:.:""J(:. ~,,~ay i l: \ '\:13 ~l\:a tc.::c' ~ i"~i ·; .Jn iJnmcc~J u tc .reJ.ltt to ,,_.1 a.t.li!Lc~ lcn:ber j :lj~lst:~_-y, r.hc rc l·.ovd·L oi· royalt~es on :tttmoer pro(~!l.IC~~-i GD _ Nnw I rc~J.i.~a I ~~v~ nlrJvGd it F1rlrt: LJ10 pulplA·\)Cd to ·-:J12 s~r ...... ·.~c..ss~and tht::: quE-stion ~ 21SK i.:.be minister-N;-~s there never any c0nside~ation given to this urgent request from this large sawmiJJ iJ~dlLStrj_a~ gro~p and sh()Wing the importance o.t the stumpaqc tee -co u-.em, was t.hcre 2

June 7, 1982, Tape 989, Page 1 -- apb MR. LUSH: never any position taken on whether or not we should remove this stumpage fee with respect to lumber production for these people who are indeed struggling to stay in the business? MR. SPEAKER(Russell): The hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. POWER: Mr.

Speaker, I can only reiterate what I have already said, that this Province 1 with its limited financial resources,took certain measures in a recent budget, a very well-prepared and well-delivered budget, well received by the people of Newfoundland, we had to take certain financial measures in that budget. We also took certain measures, Mr. Speaker, to make life a little easier for sawmillers,such as removing the sales tax on capital equipment.

All I can say is that we cannot solve all the problems in the sawmilling industry in Newfoundland until somebody in Ottawa decides to change the high interest rate policy that they have. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Port au Port. MIL IIODDER: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the minister again what effect will the new stumpage rates have on the Grand Falls mill, the Bowaters mill in Corner Brook 1 and the Abitibi-Price in Stephenville? What effect will these new price increases have? And when will they come into effect?

Would the minister tell us exactly how much extra these mills will have to pay? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, as I said, most of the wood that goes to the Grand Falls mill, and to the Corner Brook mill,comes from company-held 2 ! i ; I,

June 7, 1982, Tape 989, Page 2 --apb MR. POWER: limits, so no stumpage is paid to the gov~rnment of Newfoundland. As it relates to the Stephenville mill, because of an agreement entered into with some foresight by this government, as opposed to the Linerboard milJ ·wlrich '"ar> there, we allowed in that agreement with the company for a stumpage rate which wilL be Ieviewed in eighteen months time. Hopefully the new stumpage rates negotiated between this qovernment,aG the ERCO power contract, as the Bowater power contract - SOME f!ON. MEMBERS: llear, lwu.r ~ SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! r1R.

POWER: -and all the other things that this government have done to get a fair return for the people of Newfoundland,will relate to the woods industry. 'l'he real effect of this agreement, these new stumpage .rates may have on the companies in Newfoundland, is t.hat wher.. 1ve get the land tenure negotiations done, when we get the two companies to enter into forest management agreements, when the resource will come back under the control of the people who rightfulJy own it, then the people of Newfoundland will get a better return on that very valuable resource. MR. HODDER: A supplementary, Mr.Speakcr. !1R.

SPEAKER (Russell) : A supplementary, the hon. the member for Port au Port MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the minister point-blank will the sub-contractors who are supplying the Stepl1enviJ le mill be payin9 lhc nc"' stumpage rates? MR. NEARi': Hear, hear! A good question. 2 I'

June 7, 1982 Tape No . 989, Page 3 -- apb MR.SPEAKER(Russell): The hon . the Minister of Forest Res()urccs and Lands . MR . PO IVER: Mr . Speaker, the stumpage rate as it relates to a private contractor is covered by the new stumpage rates put into effect as of the recent budget. '!'he company , J\bi tibi -Price, has agreed to pay the new stumpage rates - MR . HODDER: F'or how long? MR . POWER : - for wood produced up until June 15, upon which time they will be considering how much wood they require for this year , whether they will be getting it from company limits or Crown limits, and , if and when, they will obviously be using the union agreement on Crown limits, 2 ll· fi

June 7, 1982 Tape No. 990 SD - 1 MR. POWER: in which case the benefit to the people ;)f Ncwroundlanu, through h.igher tdxos bcincJ p<t.id i.Jy persons who earn a higher return for the work that they du in the unio n agreement on company lin'i t<' ,the:-~ the Province of Newfoundland will still get good returns [~om a ~esource which is rightfully ours. MR. HODDE:il.: Supplementary, ~1r. Speaker. MR. SPEAKEH (Russell) : SuppleJT\entar.·y, the hon. member for Port au Port. MR. liODDET<: Mr. SjJCi:lkl'r, l C.:cln l~cll thv minislcr· what Abitibi-Price says the cost is going to mean.

They say it is going to mean from $8.00 to $10.00 a ton on their newsprint on the world market. Nm.,r the question I have for the minister - MR. NEJI.RY: Th.:tt is clown t.i.me. MR. TULK: That is in Stephenville, you know . MR. HODDER: Tbat is in Stephenville. MR. NEARY: That means down time. Mf~. TTODDER: 'rha t is in Stephenv ille - $8.00 -----to $10.00 a ton. Now I want to ask the minister another question.

In light of the fact that the U.S. mills at the present tim e arc· dumpi nq their pulp on "Lh<' Eun >rr.an m.1rkct. and that there is a price war going on,an~ in liqht of the fact that the President of MacMillan-Bloedel said rr;;cently that he felt that the industry was in a down-turn, and in light of the fact that the Europeans are now looking for the cheapest softwood possible, does the minister not think that l>y raisinLJ stumpa<je fee's, which wi 11 ul:f<.:!c-t the Stephenville mill, is that not the most detrimental act that this government has ever perpetrated on the town of Stephenville? MR. WARREN: MR.

SPEAKER: Resources and Lands. Hear, hear. The hon. Minister of Forest 2 ., '

June 7, 1982 Tape No. 990 SD - 2 MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, it seems that the basic principle never changes with the members opposite, all that changes is the topics and titles. It does not change when it comes to offshore and now in the case of MacMillan­ Bloedel, if they were here, or Abitibi-Price or Bowaters, it now appears to be the ordinary taxpayer of the Province who has 9ot to supplement a big corporation because you think there is going to be down time. Mr. Speaker, that is not going to happen. The companies in Newfoundland have made higher profits in the last four or five years than tl1ey ever have made.

The stumpage rates will not materially affect down time in Stephenville. And as far as whether persons in Europe or anywhere else are buying the cheapest qualit y or the cheapest newsprint that they can get that is simply not true. What is happening in Europe, as it lii!pp~ns everywh ere else , they wunt a quality product, the best newsprint in the world is being produced in a mill in Stephenville in Newfoundland,and down time for Stephenville will not be affected marginally by the stumpage rates implanted by this government only to get a fair return for a resource which is ours. MR.

HODDER: MIL ~; l't·:Al\1;: r~ ( Russc ll) : member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. I~ in11l supplementil ry, the hon. No, Mr. Speaker, the pulpwood industry, the competition between the Scandinavian countries and the Southern U.S. has thrown the European market in disarray. And I would just like to let the minister know, in case he does not know it, that the Abitibi-Price mill sells all of its pulp to the European market.

And I would like to ask the minister again to truthfully tell the House whether he feels or not that an $8.00 to $10.00 a ton cost because of stumpage rates on the Abitibi mill will not affect the operations of that mill which, by the 2 1 ll n

June 7 ,. 1982 rr~ape No. 990 SD - 3 MR. HODDE!<. ·,Jay, has just storted uo and is just gcltinst ovcc its ]'r:t)duci ;ion probh~·ns um.l lli1s not~ madl! a profit this year? i'iR. S:?EA}(E;·: (?.us:; ~): fl1e han. Minister of ~·o J~ es ~ R e ~,Ju.:co..: s "' ·~10 L2r:.~ 1s W1. . POi·JE ft : Hr .. Spee::.keT, this go,;crnmc:!t, I ~ ---·- ... .-!)~ 1.1 l:h ll1k i_s 1.-~-·~SOTL.:tl~·LJ' r ..... i...'l .l ,J.I ~.7-::JI~C th.:Jl thc_;r(; is d JlCW~;pl ~il)l m ill i:: St~~.:. 2n~ Jille, reason::lbly ,.,,P.l L at·Ja:L~€.:~ sor-.tr-: lC N ~ !l£~!1 ~~ -:r .:.·~ -: -- -·-- --- Hear·, hear~ (') ! ' {._ I •

June 7 , 1982 Tape 991 PK - 1 t-1R. POWER: - ·--- - We are also reasonably well a\olare of lvbere that newsprint goes , what the cost is , and we are also reasonably well aware and reasonably determined to get a fair return in the form of stumpage for a wood re.source that is being used in this Province to supply jobs in Newfoundland,on the one hand, and also to produce a product for e,xport .

If it comes down tl>at someone says then it is always the ~ewfoundland Government who has got to 9ive in, to subsidize the biq operations or someone else, then I think that is wrong, it is unjust, it is unfair and it is something which this government does not see as being necessary in today, 1982 . MR . NEARY: t~IL ~~·1 ~ /\1\1 •:1~ ( ll\ Jl;S<' .. !.l_L:. Opposition . t>!R. NEARY : Mr . Speaker. The hon . l~a~er of Lhc Mr .

Speaker, I would like to ask the hon . gentleman,resulting from an answer he gave there a few moments ago; as e veryone knows in this Province this administration because of their lack of pla ns and policies have thro\om the fishery into chaos , the marketing industry is in shambles : Now is the hon . gentleman saying that the forest industry and the paper mills a re goin~ to have a good year, that there will be no. down time at Stephenville? Did I understand the hon. gentleman to say that ? MR . SPEAKER: The hon . Minister of Forest Re sources and Lands . MR . POWER: Mr .

Speaker , I can understand how eig hte€ n got tc be eight. I understand it more every day . SOME HON. MEt-IDF.Rf: Hear, hear! MR . POWER: I have to say - SOME HON . ~1EMBERS : Hear , hear! 2 11 fl

June 7, 1982 MR. POWER: SOME HON . MEMBEF.S: MR. POWER: 'I'11.pe 991. PK - 2 - that anybody in this Province - Oh, oh~ - \.,rho does not understand what is hnppeninCJ in the forest industry - last year we l1ad il greilt discussion about the sp:r:·ay pro~rramme in t.his House, Hr. Speaker,. a spra y programrre that v.ras based 1;pon -;:ecommendations oi the roya .l commission.

At le:oa st three 01- fon1: of the ciqhteen 1vho were there then - who have noV/ become eight_ and may be less than that sometim e - acknowledged during the debate that this royal commission report they had not read it, but they were willing to discuss the ramifications of it, thoy were willing to judqe L:he recommendations, but the:y hac! not 1.-L'u(l from whe:r:E~ the recommendations may have come. l'lha t has hapf.Jcned :in Ncw f oundland since 197 2 as it relates to the forest indu str y? I will say this, Mr.

Speaker, that I j•.1st Vlish that the Go vernment of Canada, the big corporc) .tions of Canada, or anybody else in this world, would give to the Newfoundland Government as much control over lts other re~c~rces as VIe h~v e over tho forestry. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. POWER: management since 1972 - SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. POWER: Hear, hear: What we have done in forest Hear, hear~ l'llhat 1ve have done in 1974 with a ~·orest Management Taxation Act, which unfortunalcly hurl.<; a few people who have large grants of land from some pre­ vious government for some reasons that nobody seems to know about - SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear: MR. POWER : - and unfortunately we cannot collect trrxes from those per~oons who ovm n\ore than 300 acres 2 I I

June 7, 1982 Tape 991 Pi< - 3 MR. POWER: of land in the Province, which haJ?pened sometime in that t>.,enty - three year span from 1949 to 1973 or 197 2, what we have done in 1979 with d royal commission, what we have done lvith a spray programme , v1hat >Y'e are about to do in the next couple of months in signing an ag r eement - ~1R. NEAP:: '·lhat is he talkin<r about, Mr. Speaker? MR . POWER: I •.;rill answer the question , Mr. Speaker, based on forest management and the control of our resources .

Nhat 111e are about to do with the Abitibi - Price , the largest producer of newsprint in the world, to make great big Abitibi-Price, the biggest, largest newsprint producer in the vlorld, come to Newfoundland, conform to Ne•o~foundland management , to sign land tenure agreements with the Newfoundland Government which puts them on twenty year conditional forest leases where they have to do silivcultural I.JOrk, wher e they have to do reforestation, where they have to return to ·the people of Ne,.,foundland a resource in 2 I I ')

June 7, 1982 'l'apr:c No. 992 EC-1 MR. POWEF: some shape and form as they found j t, th0!3C :.hln•J.S \tv'C a t~e: Joi ~~~_-), Mr. S}_.JC.:.tkcr, and involved with all that, we happen to be increasing stu~page sorrtewhat. NOit.ir M.r. Speaker·, I have to say tfJat [ just 111ish thut th~ 1-linister of Fisheries (f.iJr. r~1urcj;~n) ]l,-: ... 1 i~.h(~· SiJI1i·-:_' (.'()ilL~'(I'Jl' th(: s;~!l\( ({("'1]!,('1..' (,1 1rt~J1age~01~i: over tl1e cesource that he is ir1 char1e of .Ln some \va:i ior tile Provi;1ce or Ne\-Jfoundland - PREMIER PECKFORD: He wonld 'Jet a :iob done pretty fast if he die.' Sm'lE HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. POWER: - I j11st w::.sh he had. There wou·J,l not. be the ."~L. 7\nthonv prClh.lc•rll, t.h,~rc Wrluld nnt be the quota problems, there would not be the Cubans and the nussians and the Poles going off wiLh most of the resource as they are not going off with the resource that we have, for instance, right now in forestry. SOME BON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. rmvr:R: It m~y hurt hoi1. rrtembc1·s that we have a consistant, well-thought-out, well- reasoned policy for forest management in this Province.

It is being dnne in a co-o~ecative sense between the federal governm8nt and the provincial government, but done co-operatively by them because they kJCow U1e resource is ours and they cannot take it away [rom us. SOI'iE HON . MEJ"'BERS : hear-, hear! ~R. NEARY: lv!r. Speaker. HR. SPEAJ<ER (RUSSELL): A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. SOel"' I •C•i'l. MEI•,m r.;f(~; : Jlc,·;t he ;~~~ MP .. NEARY: Mr. Spe::rkcr, l:he quosti.on [put to l:he hon~ qcntleniLlil V/L!S thj.s: L)j(J ! undcl'"Stancl him correctly a few minutes ago when answering my ( I '

June 7, 1982 Tape 992 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: colleague, the member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) 1 that this new stumpage fee would not be detrimental to the paper mill in Stephenville and that there would be no down time this year resulting from that sort of action on the part of the provincial government? Is that what the hon. gentleman said? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR . POl,JER: Mr. Speaker, what I said is what the big corporations always said to the eight, to the eighteen and to the, I guess, thirty-eight at one time, that we cannot - MR. 'l'OBIN: Thirty-nine.

Thirty-nine. MR. POWER: Alright, thirty-nine, We cannot conform to the wishes of the Newfoundland Government because it is going to hurt our shareholders or hurt somebody else. The same kind of mentalitywas in place with the Upper Churchill, ERCO contracts, Bowater contracts and many others. What we are saying is that simply for 7\bitibi-Price to come back to us and say, 'My God, we are going to go out of business.

Is it not terrible that we are going to have to close down Stephenville in Newfoundland/because we have upped stumpage rates in Newfoundland by 260 per cent when the price of the newsprint is gone 300 per cent. Mr. Speaker, this government docs not swallow, lock, stock and barrel, the arguments of the big paper companies or any other big company. What we are going to do, Mr. Speaker, is get a fair return on stumpage rates for the people of this Province, which is fair and just and which still allows the forest to be managed properly which we are going to do, anyway. 2 I l I

June 7, 1982 Tape 992 :::c - 3 MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) A supplementil.ry, t.he hon. the membc1~ for. Foso. MR. TULK: Let me tn ke the minis tc)· back, c]e?r of the !Jiej Ci)!-Lll_~an.j 2s , Mr. S:tJeoJ:er ( bac :i{ to a local coLt.r()ct cr on th e No!:"tb. ea.st Coa st of !:h is Provinc e cu'.:. ·::i DC! exn ort pulp..-~oocl . SO M E liO N . ME f·':c.'lE RS : Hearr hear! MR.

TULK: I asked thE: minister what \las thQ ncl- pn.JI:d~ Jast ynar ol' u ·lnC<.i! c:L>ntrzH;i_oL·. \~cU,thL~ three tha'c I ·talked. to yesterday, on the weekend, told me that no"1 they are receiving $50 per cord for export wood and without takin~ out. Unemployment In.sur::J .nce Commission benefits, Canada Pension benefits,or paying for any oi !:> .. oi:r:- JTI~chincry 1 wj Lh the new rnyaJ,.:.i.os 1:\1 ... -~t he' h~l~-~ put in place they will now spend $48.38 per cord. Now, in view of that, I will ask 'che min.iste·: again, will he go up and sit down with ~1e M~~ister c£ Finance (Dr.

Colllins), will he meet wit.h those peopl:::-, a.nd will he pll t those stu~age rates back tc w!1at they wen= in 1980 - 1981 ) ' I .,

,Tunc 7,1982 'rape No. 993 ah-1 MR.TULK: so that we can have those 500 people who are now finding themselves unemployed back on the payrolls again? MR.NEARY: MR.SPEAKER (Russell): Resources and Lands. MR. !'(lWEI(: Hear, hear! The hon. Minister of Forest Mr. Speaker, it is strange that I gave a commitment,in the very first answer to the initial question that was asked 1 by accomodating a wood exporter from Newfoundland who has certain persons employed. I said the Minister of Finance (Dr.Collins) and I will be dealing and negotiating and straightening out that kind of a problem.

But it is still strange, it is still amazing that we have to do that for a Newfoundland exporter of pulpwood,because the same person in Montreal who buys a big block of export wood all across Eastern Canada, in order to get a shipment of wood goino to Europe he may buy 15,000 cords in Newfoundland,l5,000 or 20,000 cords from Nova Scotia, some in New Brunswick and some in Quebec, it is strange that we,as this government,are going to find per.,<'ns going out of business because our stumpage rates are too high at the same time that all the other wood going to the export market in Europe pays a higher stumpage rate in Quebec, a higher sl:'lltlpaqc rate in New Brunswick, a higher stumpage rate in Nova Scotia and we pay a lesser stumpage rate.

But still I say the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) and I will certainly sit down and accomodate them so that those persons will not become unemployed in this Province. MR.NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR.SPEAKER: A supplementary. The hon. Leader oF the Opposition. MR.NEARY: I am afraid I cannot follow the hon. gentleman's logic . I have to ask the hon. 2 l I F:

Ju:1e 7, 1982 MR. NEARY: ,v.R. D:i:NN: baby tclk r.mv . :.m. CALLAt.: : 111~. lmAH\1': ~D?e 993 hh - 2 gentleman .a•;ain Y·OU \vill r . .:n:e tr:> ?Ut l.t in You are a secretary nm.;. N.\PI~ ;,nd t:he !"etlcn.:don nf I .. "\lmur vJill dcnl •.dt.h tl,,~ hon. 'J~ntlt"'liln. 1 .1m ;lc•,11 i :1q t..·: Ill t !w Minister ;,1· !·'crcs::ry {Hr. Pa•:~cr) rlt,;ht :101~. :rs the r.~.:r: . gen::lema;'\ sorinq Lh.,t lle is going to ne:goti.:;tc 1:ith the i.Uni.ster of f'inanct: (Cr . Collins) Wh-' an:1ot::'l~no t.hcsc no:!• . .; stumpagt- rates?

Is llc goinv ·to negotiate just. for one cr.mtractor or is he qoinq to ~cgotince che same deal foe ~ll thQ ~ont:actors who c~purt woc-d or who ~~ll ;.:ooc! ofi C• ·own land to cilc p.,pcr cump~r1i ('s:' !s there ju:ot goi:-.g tc be one dcel for on<:; cont'!:'ilc!:uL' or is there coi:1q to ~c .;1 uni versa 1 forrnu! <: for all the <.:ont:r<~~tors? ~i~. SPEA...:.;ER {R:JSS:L:LL) : n~c hon. i1i:~is ter of t"crcst.~ Resources and L~nds . ~1R. PO\\'ER: ~lr.

Speaker, we ,wl' CJ•).inq to accorntlut~tc the exl)Oct of wood a~ it rc~..:r.t•s to thi:; Province. 'l'ncre i~ one majl)- exporter of Nood in the Province, o:;e: tr.<!jor p~rson, or.e reajc:: e.l-:porter of "''IX'ci. \<lc have to uccolT".odz.::c him bcc.t tsc the r:•:w stlJtr.p<)gC riltcs ~1ere not envisaged by him when he er1te~ed ir,to a contract ~1i::h a Europea:1 buyar at: la!'t ye.;.r's scump:tCJC rat<·!s. 1\rid we • . .;ill acc:omodate r.hc.t: pe.:::S<In oecausc tve tio no l: W<m t persons un~mploye!d i.n ~hi~; J'n;.vincc l f lot'.: ~.u! in any way, shape of form preven!: .i:: fro:n happening.

That is why we wil: be fair and jusc . nut at . :h~ sil:u~ time do not for.ge-.:, Kr . Sj?eake:-, ti.a':: th~ ~.o:ood thct is being cut is wood tha!:. is o\.;ned by the people o!: ' N~\ ,•toundl~lnd .:nd Llv•y IIP::c~•v·· .t .':'.1ir l';ll~· •• r ••t•t•arn Ill I'll!' rlllfll ••I stumpa~~~~ which '''e intend to clo nm·: nnd lo/C! intend to , cxp<:tnd int:o the nc1; lu.nd tenuro av,·ovnH.mt;,J '' L t.h A!d 1.1 bt-l'rin· 2 i 1 r

June 7 , 1982 Tape No . 993 ah-3 Ml ~ . 1'0 1<11-:H: uncl llnw.-. tcrs . 7\nc'l \vc .in t e nd v.rh0 n tho::;c neqotiations are concluded we will be able. to come back to this llouse o f Assembly and make a statement and say, "Loo k, here is what \o~e do \olith the resource that we control, one \'l'hich we intend to manage and her.e are the benefits in financial terms to the people of Ne~,o.rfoundland . SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear , hear ! MR.SPF.l\KER (Russel l ): Order , please ! The t i me for Question Period has, expired . 2 I I ;I

June ;, 1982 Tap~ No. 99'1 ~:~1 - 1 i.NS\iE:RS ?0 QUESTIONS FOR ~ffiiC!i NO!' ICE HAS BEEN GIVEN: I·~R . SPZ~!\ER (Russell): ~·he hc;3. Minis';er of Socinl Services. r~ . HICI<EY: Nr. Speake::, r !'lave the ans1·1t!r to question No. 43, by -::h.: hem. the men,bcr for Torngat Mountains U·l.r . 'Narrcn) ~ Qncst:tor.: The cost of rcno·:.;.~tions to the T'linistcr' !" office, .fiscal yea:- 1 79, SO, 1 Sl? Ans\.;c.:; No .r~"lovut.ions co the mini.~ter 1 .s off .:! ce. :-1.~. YOu'}JG: Net getting along ve ry •.,·ell \-lith the i-linist:cr oi Ptlblic Norks very acod. ORDERS OF THE Dh'l': !offi.

Mf\f{SII T..LL: Order 2, Ccnunitl:c~ o( S•Jflply . 0:\ :;,otion, th.at the House resolve itself into Com~itLee cf Scpply, Mr. Spea<er left the Chair. COHMITTEE OF SOPPL'l: MR. CH.lUru-'.AN (l>.yhoa::-ci): ~IR. NEARY: Y"l' - MR. CHAI Rl't'll,N : MR . NEARY: Order, please! Ecaci II - Ler,islaturc . Shall 201-01 carry? No, Mr. Chairma~. not quite, not '1''1e hon. Leader of the Oppo~i tion. - probably shor~ly, ~tr . Speaker . Ore of the matters that -,·e \~.;~nt to raise: unc'!er this hea.:linq has to cio with scc:-ataries for Z'.HJ.s. No•,.;, Mr.

Chairman, hen. (!entleme-n wi 11 remember in the .Jas";i f'!!>On ycil cs nN!Ol:i" :.:ions took :ll,tC<! be I Wl'<'ll the present Goveanmen. House ~adcr (~lr. t1ars'h<~lll, and the LC:ldcr of the Opposition ,Hr . Jamic,;;on) or the - I am not sur~.; ,;.t i:. was the Leader of the Opposition or my colleague, the member for Port au Port. (Nr. llocd~r), in con:1ect~ion ''ith secreatilrJ..cs for Mlfl\s.,. The ;overnment aqre~:i at that t.irr:e ')•

June 7, 1Y82 'l;ape No. 995 MJ - 1 Ml{. S. NEARY: that in return for co-operation of moving the est~mates off the floor of this House, out into the boardrooms in var~ous government buildings scattered around St. ,John's,and chanqi'ng the rules of the House to suit the administration, to strip the authority and the responsiblity trom this House,in return for that the government undertook to look into the possibility of giving each MHA one secretary instead of one secretary for two MHA's. Now that was an honourable agreement that was made with my former colleague, the then Leader ol the Opposition (Mr. u.

Jamieson). Now, Mr. Chairman, these rule changes took place some three years ago and so far there is no sign of the other part of the deal be~ng fulfilled, ·the other part of the deal being that L.he Government House Leader tMr. W. Marshall) would undertake to see to it that each MHA !tad his own secretary. One of the first things that this government did when they got their forty-four members 1when they got the~r llL'W m,1nd:1to,we~s t<1 throw us out or our or-ficcs down on the f~ftn floor and put us in these tiny cells down at the end of the corridor on the fifth floor. Now, Mr.

Chairman, that 1s fine- 1 mean we have to live with that-but what about the other part of the deal that was made with i•ir. Jamieson, to give the MHAs a secretary per MHA? uo they intend to honour that deal, Mr. ~hairman? Or are they just going to ignore it now that they have their rule changes? And I might say, as far as the rule changes are concerned,they are not working. That is obvious by the way the LStimate Committees are functioning, Mr. Chairman. Somebody was conned at the t~me. Hon. members m~ght recall that I 2 I"\ I /(I

June 7, 1982, Tape 996, Page 1 -- apb MR. NEARY: spoke anJ voted against these rule changes. I knew from the beginning they would not work. They are not working. They are working in favour of the administration because the pecple of this Province are not getting t.he information they are entitled to have. It is virtLlally impossible to scrutinize the estimates the way they shouJd be scrutinized. And besides that, t-1r. Chairman, the Conuni ttees 2.re loaded in favour of the government; you have five government members on a Commi.-Ltl!c and two Opposition members. It is not like the Public Accounts Committee, Mr.

Chairman, where the Chairman of the Public Accounts Conunittee is an Opposition member. It does not work that way. They have the Chairman and they have the majority on the Conunittees. And, as my bon. colleague indicated this morning, they are there for one reason only,and that is to prop up the ministers, to protect the ministers. They are dumb-bells. They do no·t scrutinize the estimates. MR. TOBIN: Not the dumb-bell you are. MR. NEARY: It is obvious, Hr.

Speaker, if the new 1'1ember for Buri.n - Placentia West (Mr. 'i'obin), the new bushy-tai 1 <'d member, wild-eyed and goggle-eyed and shiny-nosed, if he wants to help his constituents - MR. CALLAN: He is only here for little bit. MR. NEARY: - if the hon. member wants to help his co~stituents and the peopie of this Provine~ then he should see to it that the estimates are properly scrutinized. Mr. Chairman, T think I vm milking a very valid point.

Mr" Chairman, there are five government members on these Conunittees,and I would make a categorical statement now, that on a very rare occasion will you hear one of the five members ask the 2 i L

June 7, 1982, Tape 996, Page 2 - - apb MR. NEARY : minister an embarrassing question or try to probe and scrutinize the estimates of these departments . So , Mr. Chairman, this Committee system is just not working . It never did v1ork. The me·dia cannot cover the meetings of the Committees , there are too many other activities going on . We were hoping in the beginning , Mr . Chairman , that the government would accommodate the Opposition ~nu move the estimates back on the floor of the fiouse of Assembly where they belong .

Once you remove the power of the purse from the ffouse,you strip it of the only power and the only authority that it has . So you pul Lhc eslimut: cs out to <1 seven man <.:onunitL cc , five of whom are gove.rnment members . '!'he d ice are J.oaded . 2 i ~ • 1

Jt.ne I, HS2 ~1R. CARTER: is loaded. Hil. NEA:.l?: ------ fape No . 991 M.J - 1 The Leader of the Opposition Mr. Ch~irman, it is physically llii~JUS!ilblc to cu'JI.!r Lncsc Lr ;nu nLt..t•.:!r.!':l' it is l!Cir.:>ss1bi~ f•~r· th<;> media to cover ::ht!se co!!1mittees, chey <:re not workinq. 'rhe rule change '~as ma:!e for c:1e reason :,nLv, to p.ve the government: a free ride. .i\no I remember when the present Goverl".rn<ant: !louse t..eaoer t•'lr. 1·1.

M~rs. h<llll ~;as on t:1is sit!e of the ::ousf'' he \<.'as SO St:C(In<J olncl fl rm then. lie \~<15 !;C St:~'OliCJ. 1 r<'mc•ut>•· r t ht• lllln . qcntloman 11ihcn h•! W<IS ,,ver ilt!t" " 11;:1 t llc '".:1s s.1y 1 n•: . lie .,.,,:> very scnsir.i.ve abo·.lt removin<J tne authority of tlns Jh)usc dm.; n on the eighth rloor, \>;i-.:h an elite clique on the eighth floor, the hon . l'"'ut J.e:nan W<lS very s"'r.sitive aoour. that. f\nd ;1:; sc>C>r. ,,:o; he yot a posicion o: aut:norJty \otherc he could cnanoc ll1C ,-u1c:s, ht! dici H.. to cake ::he au-.:horl-;;y a\-Jay from the House .

And, ~1r . (:h<n•·man, if t:i'-i.s o:tovernmem: ~·1<1nts ;:o rlo the peopl c ol' this Prov1nce a soevicc, tncy shoulu oriny l;nc cstim,1tC~ hack tt: tr11o: floor: of the House <lC AssemDly . There ur-c l!i.rmL of us over here and at. least some of \lS Ho~c be o.:::e ali the time to scrutini~e the estimates. But: anvway,thc.r. is not \vhat. I startec.l uut tu s :.v ~hat ls just.. an <lsi le , l'r . Chairm.lrL l•fh,1t I started out r::c say was r::ha~ the government d1d make a comrr.ic:ment a':'ld they have not nonou:re:l tneir commitment trJ qi Vt) Ute l·lliAs ::>nee - AR . J .

HuDD~R : That was to Don Jamieson . --- Ml< . Nl:J\RY: I beg your fJarci<.>n ~ MR . UOUDE11. : That \·.'3S maae to l'lr . ,T<:~ml.eson . AI~ . N t·:l\ li 't ; - ti,,ll. w,1:,: u~o1dc· tn my ronu~·r colleague, Mr. Jamieson, that tney \·;ou't .d gi•.;.? ~1!1As O'lc' sc<.Tct:,H·y per l'llll\ ins;:eao Clf one secret.rtry For every l\'10 ~Hil\s . 2 I L

June i, 1~82 Tape No. 997 MJ - 2 MK. S. NEARY : Ana I would like to get the hon . gentlman 's reaction to chac 1 because Lt was the hon . gem:leman who mad e the commit:ment . we have the letter down in our o Efice . MR . MJ\RSH/\LL : No otncr province in Canada has that . l'iR . NEAI<Y : No nther province in Canada has lt? MR . . !.fODDER: That is not so . NO, Sir . '!'ha t is not so . MR . NE/\RY : I have a fe w other remarKs to make , Mr . Cho1rman , but i would like to hear the hon . gentleman 's reaction to that before I carry on. MR • • 1. l'I\I<'I'I ·:H : Mr . Ch. ,·i rm;1n. t·1R.

CIIJ\IItMAN lAylward) : The hon. the member for St . John 's North . MR . CAKTEk : I feel i have to reply to tne scurrilous rem arks made by the Leader of the opposition (Mr. S. Neary/. r have never hearo- oh, yes I have heard such rubbish ano l have heard such an attack be(ore because every time he gets up he interlards his speech with au attack like that . I would just like to say that the comm1ttee system as far as I am concerned LS \vO rk 1 ncJ extremely well.

As Eor the estimates not being on the rloor or the House , the Concurrence Debates nake sure that any items that were raised in tne consideration of the estimates are raised again on the fLoor of this Rouse . The time that is spcnL, .tlth ough only f1Ctce n hours is allowed l..:> taken orf tne seve nty -five hours for the consideration of the estimates . Neverthelcss,considerably more that fifteen hours 1s spent on the consideration of the ~ocial 2 12 '

June 7, 1982 Tape No. 998 so - 1 MR. CARTER: Services estima·tes. Any other members of the House are certainly welcomed to attend. Now it so happens that the members of the Opposition who are on the Social Services Committee are real gentlemen and perhaps that Committee works a little better than other committees. And knowing the hon. gentleman opposite,J would be inclined to agr~a. It seems for some reason or other our corm11ittee is blessed with the two best members on the Opposition.

But there is no doubt about it that this system is the best thing since sliced bread.And furthermore the format that we havr~ used is to ullow any questions to be hrnuqltt Ltp ,1t any time- Just because a subhead has been discusse~ and you ·think put to !.Jed, if a member of the Opposition or a member of the government side decides to brin~ U!J this guestion again we are more than happy to hear it and to ~o through it again. If someone comes in late and something has already been discussed, we have no quarrel with them bringing it up CICJain. And we have bent over backwards to accommodate them.

The record shows that last year, I think. we spent - the exact figure escapes me - but I think it was twenty-seven and a half hours were snent on the Social Services Com.'Llittee and that is far in excess uE the amount of tim~ tll;tL wouJd helVe• i.J~011 ~·'ll~nt hi.td these estimates been brought into the House. Now I have to cast my mind back at least four years to recall how the estimates were handled when they were done in the House but, as I recall it the then Leader of the Opposition, because the s~ots have not changed that much, made it like r:>ulling teeth.

As each headinq was .r<Li sed everyone had to have a word to say t)n it, tht'r" was a ten minute harangue-or I think the allotment was fifteen minutes at a time -there was a fifteen minute harangue,and then the Chairman would try and get the item 2 I -, . ! / .. ~

June 7, 1982 Tape No . 998 so - 2 MR. CkRTER : through,and it would just about be c~r~icd and then someone else would get up and speak from th~ Oppo~ltion ,.:~nd then l:hc Louder of the Opposition , the member for LaP oile (Mr. Neary)- I think he was the member for Bel l Island then - would then ~ct up and oivc his harangue again . So God bless wh oever thouqht of bringing the estimates into the committee system. I am absolutely clcliqhtcd that the member for LaPoile has decided to boycott these particu lar sessions because I know from past experience that you get nowhere, it is just a waste of time trying to make any headway with him, 212" 1 n

June 7, 1982 TC!?C No. '99<i N'·l - l Na. J. CARTER: and I ver; much appreciate the fact that l1c £s staying aw.1y from it.. I only ,,•ish h~ 1-:ould carry through his threats comple~e:!.y and st.ay n·.•a~ · rrom tile House. r·lR. Cl:ii\I!U·~.N (~.yl,..ardl : The hon. the Prcside"'t of the:- Cou..~cil. HR. MARSHALL: i<tr . C'lai.('J':'.a.i , a fC \1 \·:o1·ds 1 ~~ill have in reLltion to "'hot the Leader of the O;>positio:-. (i·!r. Ncury) said, supplementary to 1-1hat the member for !H .. John's N.Jrth ~l"'.r. Carte-

r) said in the first ~ HR. NEARY: You <lo not asso-::iate ~dth him here. t·iR. Ml.RSHALL: No, I always associ<-te ~.ysel f 1r1ith the member for St. Johr1'..; North (:<:r. Carter}. He ah,rays speaks very ::-rankl::· ancl •:ery coge!'li:l .Y and S!li'S t."1e truth at a:!..i times. ne is :dqht on whc:. llt:' speaks. l\~ a rr.at.ter of fact,wc are ''ery proud of the :':'!ember for st. John's Nor~l1. Sm!E nON. !-3t-1BERS: H~ar, hear! ~1R .

NEF,R~: Noc onl.y is he the man I•Jho headed the cornmi t te£ ~r: tht2 flag, ~.·:hich the hon. membc rs 1 1d ':~ the r'Xt:<:!ptlon nf l'h~ rnembc>r l'n1 Port: .1\ r Port (Nt·. lto;ldl·r), co:1dell'.ned :-o\.'ndly and ·11hich is no·,.,. accepted ~v~ryHbn:c, anci T '··IQuld think ·that '-"Ould be a :feather - if not D feather certainly a flag in his ca? fo:- many years to come - but he has also been th~ <:'hai :::-man of t."1e Social Policy C'=irr.rr.i ttt:c and it is because o! hill', and the cthe:: chairmen to o large extent, that those co:nrni'l:tees have neen successful. Now ilS to the <.lc;' 1, ~!J·.

C:hai rman, ~he alleged deal. an: it is always said there were alleged deals, whatever deals this ;ov"rL.rnent has ev~ry made,this 9overnmc.nt has ? . •, : .... '. ,

.Tunc 7, 1982 Tape No. 999 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: kept, even with the Opposition. The rule changes that were made to put these estimates out to Committee were in conformity with the practice in just about every other parliamentary institution of this type. The then Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Jamieson) agreed with it. The present r.eqder of Hle pppor>i tion (Mr. Neary) I thin]c was the . \ . . ' ' only one ~n 't~e ~o~se who disagreeq with it ,and d~sagreeq with it vigorously.

Since then th~ hon. gentleman, p~rticulaflY since he has gotten suzerainty over the other gentlemen,including the gentleman from Terra Nova (Mr. Lush), and the other gentlemen in the House, he seems to be embarked on a policy of trying to demonstrate that the committees are networking, that they are not working properly • And that is an easy thing to do, Mr. Chairman, it is an easy thing to do.

Because for the committees to operate, of course, you have Opposition members and you have government members on it and just say if the Opposition members do not turn up to the meetings or of the Opposition members there is only one there instead of two at the meeting, it is a very easy thing to say that the committees are not working. Well if they do not work because the Opposition do not turn up, Mr. Chairman, it is because of the Opposition and not of the government. And that is really what is happening.

If a member of the Opposition is unable to make a meeting at a particular time,therc is a procedure in the rules,which has been used all the time,whereby a letter is signed 1 and I will be prepared to sign a letter at any time at the Opposition's request to substitute one Opposition member for another at that particular meeting. Now surely it is not too much to ask two Opposition members to attend 1because that is all they have to do, just two 2 l 2 il

June 7, 1982 Tape 1000 EC - l MR. MARSHALL: Opposition members have to attend a meeting. There are only two meetings that arc held at any given time. This year we decided to do this because of the altered situation. So all we are doing is we are asking four Opposition members to attend and,surely, that is no·t asking too much. We have this Committee system.

One of the reforms in this House, legitimate reforms, was the establishment of the Committee system and by everybody's yardstick,except the Leader of the Opposition and some of t:'le members now of the Opposition, under whose absolute and complete control .ve now find the Opposition 1 under the complete control now of the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) r some of them now parrot what he says and say that it is not workins. But the fact of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, that this is, as I say, we are implementing a system that has been in vogue in other areas and we are proud that we have done it.

We are proud of what we have done to the House to increase the effectiveness of the House. It causes a more in-depth examination of the estimates; it involves a much more extensive look at the financial position of this Province,and it causes, despite what han. members opposite may say, a g:t·eater publication of the situation. The han. member said that, in his view, the fi vc rJovernment members do not ask embarrassing questions.

From the reports of the Committees that I have seen, the five government members are asking incisive questions and questions geared to elicit information, which is the purpose of the Committee itself. 2 I ~ ,,

June 7, 1962 Tape 1000 EC - 2 :·tR. MARSHALL : If the hon . gentleman does not like the type Jf questions that are asked by the governmen ·t members , he will know that the government members are not under his control. Those who are under his complete control are the members of the Opposition , and all he has to do is to flick his finger ~nd point his fi nqer at whichev er member is not goinq and police his people to see that they attend the meetings themselves .

As to the facilities available to the Opposition, here again we have striven to give to the Opposition, both last time , \~hen they had larger numbers , and this time, adequate staff . At the present time I believe they have six secretaries down there . There are eight members of the Opposition . The government members themselves have much less proportionately than the Opposition members have. With respect to the space , the square footage available to the Opposition is considerably more than they had before per member, and it is considerably less than what the government has .

The simple fact of the matter is they had to be moved from one quarter to another bec .ause their numbers, in the extreme ,.,.isdom of the electorate, were dccirnatt~<l and they were cut in half, so they cannot expect to have the same facilities . They canno t expect to have thirteen secretaries and they cannot expect - they would have 2 I~ ,.1

June 7, 1982 Tapoa 1001 PK - 1 1-'..R. MARSHIU.L: enough S!?ace in their previoJs quarters, had ~hay retained it, to set '.1!? a tennis court or a basketball co'Jrt or somcthin<J the wa.y i!.: is. so they just dit! no:: nc~d .it.. ~o w~ hnve co-operated . As to the mec1ia, that . H: cannot cover theM, I !'lav-:: r.<>t. no::icC'd t:•a-c the mcdla has su ffn1·cd. r l:hlnl: the rc·~or ts hom th•! mt~cliil haV<~ been excellent on these ccrnr~ttees. It is ncL too much to have two reporters cf Any branch of ·che media attending c~o;o n:eetings at a:-:: 1 given time. - agree, Kr.

Chairr:<an, w1th the scntirncnLs ~·xprcsscd by th<: hotl. UIL:!llbcr l:o Lhu ~ffl.·cl th.ll . lhl~ po\·ler of the purse should not be taken from the House. Th!! power of the parse was put back in tha House o.f Assclt'bly by the successive admi~ist~a~~or.s of ~his par~. Prior to 1972 it sho~ld be realized chat the Cabinet of the clDy could bOl rO•tl oln unlimited amouat c:: money \-lithout securing the approval of the House of Asscwbly.

This is ~ot there now. ~his IS wh~t you would call returning the po~er :o the House. l\s ful' as ·t:he Commit tees are concerned,,.,e are now in a Committ:ee, 1.re are in a Committee of the Whole.

This is what the hon. gentl2m~n wants the es.:i:nc-ces returned to. m~at 1.re ha.-e done is we have 'lli'ldc sr.taller committees in accordance 1-dth normal practices 1"hich allow for a greater examination and i.t is not takincs the power of the purse from the Bouse but in effect is making the power of the House over the public purse eve~ greater because it yives a:1 opportunity for more extensive inquiry into the (:xpcm.Ji luJ:cs . Let cs take a look at th~ proporti.o=:s, for instance , ir. t!;c Commi ttccs . ':'he Co:nmiLtces arc comprised of seven members. This ·timt:> there are t.1110 Opposition members .

The Committees usually reflcct,tf,..:- ntt!llbt!rS 2 j I

June 7, 1982 Tape 1001 PK - 2 MR. MARSHALL: on the Committee usually reflect the complement in the House. But with two members in a seven man committee,they have 40 per cent representation on the committee. In the Committee of the Whole 1 to which the hon. gentleman wishes to return,they have eight members in fifty-two,which works out to 18 per cent. So as a result of the way in which the Committees have been 2 I ~~:,;

June 7,1982 Tape No. 1002 ah-1 MR. t-:ARSHALL: structured,·,.;e have a nuch better and much more e!:fect~ve,a.'"td gi\re larger and much r.1or~ possibilic:y to the Oppositio::1 ~o r:a~:e their points. I ~hi:lk it is much easier f.or c;·,;c members, t·,;o acti'.:e mern!Jers, if they ~.;a:1t ·t-:l be active in a ccm."'litt~c, to ma~~e tr.eir point in .l s~ai.l c\.vr,;n.i.ttce. than th.::re t'ould be for ·~itJht members in a fiit.y-t•"'o rr.C~.n coiTIItlitte.::.

So illl in c:sll, Hr .chairman, ,..,.hi'\t !,;c have done we mnk~ no apologies ~o anyone 'for. l-Je hcve do::.e >-~hat 1•e . consider to be a str~n':JLhening of the !louse and a strengt:hening of the main function of the llouse,\ ·Ihich is an examination of the expenditures of the pub! ic purse a:'lo ~tu? have 110 intention ot: n:tn.:n<:hinq from it. i\nr . :i i:' t."'e J'!on . c;ent.J.eman wants to talk about there is a diverge~ce,that there h~s been a brenk ot any agreement, ~·lhat:ever agreement: vas allegedly noade, that agreement ••as mace when they had sevenc:ee:1 ot: ei .9htcen mcmue .rs,<1nd obviously, .:ts 1 ::>o.Jy ,the clc<:toro~Ll~ in its extrene w~sco:n cut thea1 do;..-n to eight n1embcrs .

There a!:e ci9ht souls <.:vcr on t!:c other side ol ti11: lfoiiSL' . • 1nd bef:ore \ole had seventeen or eiqhtP.f'n nf them. But if the electot·ate cut t.he!1" .Jow:'l, St1 their number o! secrt!tarics should be cut d01-1n, so their space should be cut: do•.o~n. But even at thai ,proportionat~ly the~· had 1~orc: than they had befcrc, "lhich is the way this government O!:>erates . SOME HON .ME HBERS : J~eur, henr! t-~R .C HA!Rl>!AN (AyhTard): The hon. Leader of the Opposition . MR .N EA1W: Mr .

Chairman, the Government House :::.cader did some fancy dancing around tha~ one . 1'hc hon . qcnt]cman did not address himse! f to the commitrnC'n!' that \-:as mo.dc by him to Mr. Jamieson in tcturn lot· out co-op.:cation to change the rules of the llnuse dr<~stically- MR.~-i.ARREN: That is n.ght . NR.NEARY: -that each member WOllhl be qivcn his own sec=eta::y. That was the dcOJl, ~lr. t:h.-.i.rm<Jn . It 2' . I ,,1

June 7,1982 Tape No . 1002 ah-2 Ml( . Nl ·:fii~Y : docs not make <~ny difference if it is seventee n, eighteen or b1enty members. If you had t\oJenty member s you t-.rould have t\venty secretaries , if you had eighteen members you would have eighteen secreta ries , if you have e i ght members you would have eight secretaries. Riqht now we have six secretaries for eight members and two exocutive assistan ·ts , ten people . You have six secretaries attendin9 to the work of ten people . That is 111hat you have, Mr . Chairman . The hon . gentleman conveniently left out the executive ass istants.

He must expec t them to do their own typing . MR . MARSHALL: That is extra . M~J'mARY~ That is extra? I see . Not only t hat , Nr . Chairman , rig ht now apart from that they are 1.,1ithhold ing a grant to the Opposition office . They are withholdi ng that fo r the last three months . Commitments have already be·en made on that . And so, Mr . Chairman , the hon . gentlema n can get up all he wants and try to dance around it . The ag.reement was made . They have back ed down on the agreeme nt. HR . ~lARSH ALL : We never backed down on anything . MH.NEl\RY: Mr .

Chairma n, th e hon . ge ntleman says they never backed dm·m. Well where is the one secretArY n0r memb er? MR . ~11\RSFJALL : HR . Nl-:1\RY: MR. MARS.HALL : We did not brea k a n a9reement. You wh ~t ? You know that is not so . 2 l :. j ,J ..

June 7, 1982 ~IR. NEP...RY : MR . 1-' .... \RSiiALL: back down on ~n a~rccment. MR. N£.'\RY: Tape 1003 PK - l It:. is so. t-tr. Chairman kno~;s \~~ d.id not Nov:, Kr . Ch;d rma:1, the he~. ge::tlemar, al.:;o spoke about: the Cor. .m i.ttee s~·::;te:n,l think . ~·.it:: tor.gue-ir.-ch~ek. This is the cnly Province in Cnnacla - the he~. ge~tle~a~ says it is done in every jurisdiction - th~s .is ·~he only Pro;:ince in canada \~here we h<1vc .J system of Commit:tc:ws like we !'lave hurc in this l'l't>\'inc" ~· HR. lvARH.EN: It is no t so,is it? MR. NEARY: The only "·:-evince in Ca:~.Jda .

The CBC that the hon. l:he Premier hates so much, despises so much - MR. lvP.RREN: press co~ference . .MR. NEl'.RY: But he 1-:alked out of the - a:1u wi l.l not nns•.,tH any questjons for che CBC, '~:hey 1id a survey recently and they discovered much to their amazement: t:r.a t the system he:::e is unique in Canada. t-1R . !-'...~ RSHAJ,L: ·rhat is not right: . C·!R. ~;Et .. RY : The sys tcm here '' s des i.qncd in such a way as to silence ~he Op?csiLion, as to bury the esthllc.tes. !·lr. Cl".airman, the forum we have here n0\·1 in this House is a forum for ::he Opposition,nct the Com;ni~l:ees .

The Committee system can never work effectively •·Jhen you have five government members, .:~ro Opposition :nembers, and a qovcrnment member Chairman. P.o•,, can thaT. system he effective, Mr. Chairman, with two meet.inqs going on simultaneously •..rith all th<:> ot11cr: duties that membe.cs have to perform howe 0:1 1•eekends: '!'his weekend 1 -..·as dovm ln Sop 1 s Arm, Pollard 1 s ?oint and Jackson • s 1\rm, I left here on Saturday T got back last night:. SOl\loE HON. ~'.EMBERS: Oh, oh! 2 l J •i

June 7, 1982 Tape 1003 PK - 2 f.1R . NEJ\RY : A.nd I had a qood look at the road down there that the hon . gentleman is neglecting, that the administ ration is neglecting . MR. HORGAN : You are looking for a new seat , You cannot go back to LaPoile again . ~1R . NEARY : Mr . Chairman , I had a good look at that road and 1 had a good look at the fish plant that the hon . gentleman will not open down there in Jackson 's J\rm-§..0.l'1E li~N . MEMBERS : Oh , oh! SOME HON . ~1E~ IJ:>F.RS : Hear , hP-"r ~ MR . NEARY : _ because travelling over the road is too expensive to transpo rt fish .

They have a ntilllon nnd a half corc'ls of wooc'l down th<'rc thnt Bo waters would like to get at and they cannot transport it because of the condition of the road . BREIUER PECK FORD : It is time for you to get to kno w Ne"' found land , boy . MlL NEl\RY : Oh , Mr . Chai rman , it is time ror me to get to know Newfoundland . I would say it is time for th<' hon . gentleman to get out from behind that chain link renee and have a look at this Province . SOt-1E HON . l-1EMBERS : Rear, hear ! MR . WARREN : And his bodyguard . SOME HON . ME~IBERS : Oh , oh ! MR. NEARY : The hon . gentleman wLll rinu me - SO~IE HON .

MEMBERS : Oh, qh ! HR . NEARY : The hon . gentleman, Mr . Cha irm an , could not k:eep \-1ater to me when I start travelling this Province . He would no t make a good water boy . SOME RON . ME~tBERS : Oh , oh ! 21jR

June 7, 198 2 Tape 1003 PK - 3 t.ffi . NEARY : The hon . Premier wou ld not make a good ni?pe~ when r get started travellin~ this Province . S0~1E ILON . H~lBERS : 1-'R • NEARY ~. "mtE HON. !1E\IDFRS: MR . NEARY: Oh, oh! f,~-" "";: ~-now I keep telll.r.c_; - O!l, oh! - I keep telling the hon . ger:tlepan that •..:h e:1 I came .:.nto thJ. s job ... cc1: tair.l y die :101: intend to st<:ly here fore·.rer, but I <tiT' be< i 1ninq to like it. . SQl-1E HON. 1-1EM3E~ :_ Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: S0l'1E liON . HEl·lB::RS : r-ilL Nt·:I\HY : over ther.c "lOW 1·1r. ChaJ.rman.

SOHE RON. t·ffii·\BERS: AN HON • ~·.:.E!·iBEP :._ Port de Grav::- (Hr . Collins)? Pl~EMH:n PECKPOHD: stand and wait." HR . NEt.RY: at this one a lonq while too. ~H . HI\ RRE:V :_ SOME RON. MEMBERS: MR . NEARY: r am beginr.in9 to like it. Oh , oh ! , o1111 tovf; in•J ,,t llhll ~··.JL Oh, oh! 1·1here is che ::~ember for "They ~lso serve ~ho only ~tr. Chairman, I was lookiny Y~s . Oh, oh! The ho:1. gentlcma."l nc;vcr thought that I would g~t into this one. And the hon. gentleman may not think that : will get into that one . SO:·lE HON . f>lEMBERS: MR. NERRY : SOME HON. f.IEMBE~S: ~IR.

CHl\IRr-11\t, (_0Y. .l'~£~~!_: 2 Oh, o!l! tf the hon. gentleman - Oh, oh~ Order, plc<:~sc !

June 7, 1982, Tape 1004, Page 1 -- apb MR . NE/\RY : ~ ... -···--· ·-·- Mr.Chairman, if the hon . ';) CnLlcm.-:~n keeps ma kin9 tl1c blunders th;;1t he has been making , especially since the electio n, if he kee ps abusing and misusing his mandate as he has in the last few weeks, I may be tempted to stay on and have a go at the hon . gentleman . I may be tempted to do it . 1\nd so , Mr . Chairman , I do not wish to be labour the point , but - MR . HORGAN : Where is 'Ed Roberts '( He is re si gning his seat soon . MR . BARRETT : He is never here , so he must be resigning .

Ml~: . t!Q~ f.!'~ ~ lie is going to offer his seat to Len Stirl in g. MR . NEA.RY : I ca n 1-1ait , Mr . Chairman . I can wait . MR . TULK : Three str ik es and you are out in any other game . ~1R . NEARY : That is right . It is one, tw o, three strikes you 're out at the old ball ga me. MR . MORGJ\N : I wou ld get more ·tha n a twenty-one -vote majority in that elec tio n. MR . W/\RREN : He does not talk to the j ud qc , th ouqh . MR . NEJ\RY : We will just leave him - - alone , Mr . Chairm an. Mr .

Cha irm an, I do n ot wish to belabo ur the point , but I can only repeat what I have said before , what my colleag ues hav e been saying publ icl y, that the Committee system as it is presently constituted will not work . It is not meant to be 2l:Jrl

June 7, l 982, •tap<.! 1004, l'.:lCJC 2 -- olpb MR. NEARY: effective, it is only meant and designed to hide the estimates, to stop the Opposition frorr . sc::::..:tin.~.zing the estimates. It ::.s not done in .:::ny other jurisdic~:ion . In filbert.::, I .:~rr , told, where there l·:as o:ily .:1 small majority, the government worked out 1.1 procedure to accommoda~ .~ the Opposition. In other JUrisdictions the estimates are scrutinized or: the floor of the House of Jl.sse:nbly. ~- Chair:nan, t~at is tradition, that is the way the system Horks-e:-;cept in Ne~1foundland.

And then: is no t-;.:~y the administration ca:1 jusdfy what they did ~1i th the .rule changes. Th.:!y crucified the system Lh.Jt. we had for analyzing anc scrcLinizi:ig the budget. Wny, even the House Leader, •.vho just spoke 1·1i th tongue in cheek, I remember when he ~1as on this side of the House, the number of times t;hal he wils on hit; feet \~h<m tlw csti:'li.ILl!s w1:1·c being discussed. :\nd ministers were ailowed o:o bring their deputies and o!ficials in on the floor <lf the llousQ an<l have the officials seated bes~de them so that they could give ministers infcr1.:ation on questions I ~ "'

~ June 7, 1982 Tape 1005 EC - 1 MR . NEARY : that they did not have in their heads . And the present Government House Leader (Mr . Marshall) took a more active

part in scrutinizing the estimates, I suppose, than any other member except the hon . W. J . Bro'l-me, \vho was an expert at it in this House . The estimates should be returned to the floor of this House , and there is no \vay they can justify .,.,hat they are doing, Mr . Chairman. I do not care if we have twenty - two in Opposi tion , it still will not work . Where you have a larger number of government members on the Committee and the Committee Chairman a government member, how can that \vork? At least, in the Publie .Accounts Committee, the Chairman is an Opposition member - a different sct - ur altogether .

HR . YOUNG: ---· MR . NEARY : is by tradition . MR . YOUNG : It is by courtesy . It is not by courte sy, it It is not traditional. ·r11ere is no such thing as tradition . MR . NEARY : No . I know if the hon . qen tlema n had his way it \vould be a dictatorship. Why not just shut the House down and put the locks on the door? Close her dO\·m altogether ! I mean, turn her into a dietatorship! SOME I:! ON . t1E~1iH;:~S : 0:1, oh 1 ~ffi. NEt\RY : t1r . Chairman , i£ the hon . member \vants to debate that I \·IOuld be glad to debate it with him with what we saw happen in this Province on Friday past .

I have never seen that happen before . 1-m . \v~ffiEN : What was that, 1 Steve 1 ? What .,.;as that? Z.1R . NEARY : When the Premier sulked and went stormin g out and called a six or seven minute 2 i l! n

June 7, 1982 Tape 1005 EC -2 MR. NEARY: news conference and then refused to answer questions for the newsmen. At least we Liberals, if we call a news conference, we are prepared to :'ace t.he music and answer questions after. That is the djfference between Liberu.lism and Torytsm. MR. WARREN: You mean a dictator. MR. NEARY: And that is the difference between a dictator and people who are free. MR. v<ARREN: What happened? He would not answer any questions? MR. NEARY: MR. l'i'ARREN: Would not answer any questions. Would ·not answer any questions at all. Boy, oh, boy! And the Premier of the Province. MR.

NEARY: I would think, Mr. Chairman, that was the first time that ever happened in the history of this Province. There is no doubt abou·t it, Mr. Chairman, pretty soon we will have the Reign of Terror in this Province. MR. WARREN: MR. NEARY: tyrant. MR. WARREN: Was he mad? Was he mad? He was like a Is that right? MR. NEARY: Went charging, stomping out like a little child,out of the news conference and refused to answer questjons for the press. We11, we are not afraid to answer questions·. If you ever see me having a news conference, I guarantee you, I will not be afraid to answer questions. And, Mr.

Chairman, the vicious onslaught and attack that was made on the press was unprecedented in this Province, unprecedented. Mr. Chairman, we all have our disagreements occasionally with the media. We all have our disagreements, but none of us, I do not believe, have ever gone that far. 2 I 4

June 7, 1982 Tape 1005 EC - 3 MR . NEARY: Mr. Chairman , I thought it was pathetic . I thought it was distasteful , Mr . Cha irman, the vicious attack that was made by the Premier of this Province on the press . /\N liON. MF.MnER : with it . I did not see anything wrong MR . NEARY: The hon . gentleman did not see anything 1vrong with it? The hon . gentleman should hang his head in shame for supporting t .hat administ rat ion and the leader 2 I '-! . ,.

June 7, ]982 Tape No. 1006 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: of that administration and his behaviour. I would think pretty soon if that keeps up it will not be long before we will see the butterflv nets out - AN I-ION. MEMBER: Gill nets catching rats . MR. NEARY: That is not all they will catch if they put nets out in this Province. White Coats and nets are not too far away, Mr. Chairman, with that ki nc] of behaviour. And people in this Province are very concerned about it, Mr. Chai:cman. But anyway, that is an aside.

I do not intend to belabour the point. \'ie can probably geL off this suiJhcuu now .:.~nd CjCt on to tile 1\uu.iLoJ: :L·ncr.tl 's Report. I understand that one or two of my colleac;ues would care to have a few words on this subhead. MR. BAIRD: Mr. Chairman. 1'1R. CHAIRMAN (Alyward) : The hon. member for Humber West. SOM.C liON. 111-:Mmm;, : Ilea,., hl'il r. MR. BAIRD: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I have a few corrunents in relation to the former two speakers there.

Number one, I guess if a lot of the members are the same as me they are g~tting very confused here because every two or three months we wind up with a new Leader of the Opposition, some inside the House and some outside the Jlouse,and it appears that every one of them have a different way of running things and neither one of them really seems to know what they want. As far as the Estimates Corruni ttec are concerned, I have been on the Estimates Corrunittees, this is my fourth year, the corrunents from everybody else with the' exception of the ex.L;ting Oppos.i tion House Lcaclur (Mr. Nl.'Llr

y) have been very favourable. I would think the fact that we have two members of the Opposition and five on government siclt::· would upp<trcntly C]ive the Opposition o lit tl c mo1·c t i mr to ask questions. But I think, as was apparent to the 2 ..

: June 7, 1982 Tape No. 1006 SD - 2 MR. BAIRD: Social Services Committee this morning 1 I guess maybe the weather was half decent the weekend,and apparently our Opposition friends did not do their homework. They ran out of questions, they even ran out of comments after a little while - MR. MORGAN: shameful? MR. BAIRD: There you are now, is that not - then got up and attacked the government members for not asking questions. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR.

BAIRD: I recall very well one year ago the same gentlemen were at the Estimate Committee that I attended,and then they had a different cry on their face even though they had double their numbers - twice eight is sixteen. The cry then was we were asking too many questions and they did not have a chance. SOME IlON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. BAIRD: They have all the chances in the world. We listened to half an hour of Question Period today and what did we hear? It started off very poorly, finished up very poorly,with five out of the eight still asking questi.ons and they did not really know what it was all about.

I think it is time for some of the Opposition boys,including the Opposition House Leader (Mr. Neary ) to get his act straight, make up his mind to which direction he is taking, he is after being in two or three parts of the Island now looking for a seat, I think the Premier's seat is going to be a long time there before he even gets a look at it let alone sit in it.

When it comes to the secretaries down in the government members office I do not know why maybe you get a certain stigma to you when you get in Opposition­ but I find that two of us,with one secretary in between, as all the other members and I do not ~ee as much crying at our place as there is from the Op9osition 2 I~ i

June 7, 1982 Tape No. 1007 NM- 1 MR. BAIRD: a.lthough they are always complaining what is the government doing with the money. So I think maybe the Opposition should do their homework a little more and ret.hink what their position is. SOME RON. MEMBERS: MR. CHAIP~ (Aylward) Mountains. SOME HON . MEMBERS : SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. BARRETT: MR. WARREN: Rear, hear! The hon. member for Torngat Oh, oh! Hear, hear! Well done, 'Garfield'. I guess first I should qo back to the hon. member for Humber West (Mr.

Baird) • I wns u.ttendinq that conunittee meeting this morning and I believe thut the member did not tell the wh~le truth. I think, if I remember him correctly, he said that we ran out of questions, which, Mr. Chairman, I do chullenqe him-on. MR. HODDER: The record will show. MR.

WARREN: The record will show that at all times this morning that the chairman of the committ0e, we suid to the chairman time und time again this morninq, '"~ow look, we will let the government members ask the questions if there are any questions, if not we will keep asking questions." So we gave the government members all the chances in the world this morning to ask their questions and I still have questions that I could not as~, Mr. Speaker. However, we should remember, Mr. Speaker - AN HON. MEMBER: Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman. MR. WARREN: - we should remember, Mr.

Chairman, that for two years now I have been saying the Office of the Parliamentary Commissioner, or the Ombudsman we call him, I fiCJurc that was il wnsb• of qnvr~rnm0nt mon0y. T fi <Jllrf' it - WilS a waste of gove_rnment money, Mr. Chairman, but I have changed my mind. I changed my mind. I do not think it is a waste oE 2 I 'f '"r

June 7, 1982 Tape No . 1007 ~IR . Wl\RREN : government money at all , ~tt . Chairman , because of the fant astic report, this specia l report that the Ombudsman prepared showing that a 1•1inister of the Crown did not follow the proper procedure,in particula r concerning the appointme nts of individu~ls in the Civil Service . I think that NM - 2 the Ombudsman is worth much more money, is worth much more ~oney than has been voted for him in the estimates . Now , Mr . Chairman, if ever , as the hon . Leader of the Opposition (~!r.

Neary) said - by the way I wish to advise you, as far as I am concerned there is only one Leader of the Opposition and that is the man who sits in this Ch:dr riqht lwrP . SOI'U·: liON . ME~1BERS: Oh , oh ! MR . NARREN: I take my directions from the Leader of the Opposition (Mr . Neary) right here in and out of the House . And r let you know, and the executive of the Liberal Party know,that I take my directions from the Leader of the Oppo sition (l'tt . Neary) in the House, as wel l as outside of the House . And, Mr .

Chairman, I will also take my directions from him l'lhen the next election is called when he is sit ting Qver there in the Premier 's chair . But I do not think, Mr . Chairman, 2 I -. f\

June 7, 1982 Tape No . 1008 !-1J - 1 ~IR . G. WJ\RREt-<: that we shot..ld forget that this report that the Ombudsman prepared concerning an appointment in the Ministc:- ol' l~.lsllcncs' (:1r. J . Mo::::~anl office - I think \ve have taken th i.s report Loo 1 ightly. \'ie kno·..r, the Ombudsman has proved it, ar.d read the report here in black a.'\d wnite that ~he Niniste:::: o( l'isnenes intervened with the Public sc, ·vi cc Act . t\nn, ~~r . (;hninn;l!l , T really thin~ that this in J.tself, Mr. Chairu.an, shov.•s that .

My only concern is I thin k tne Ombucsman should h~ve more on his stafl: because,if he di::l,just .1.maqJ.ne ho,., many more of those he would f1.nd: I woutd n01:. doubt. bur. d1e Mir.1.ster of Puolic Norks i,~1r . tt. Younq/, maybe, could bt.! fauna wic.h the s..1mc kinu c•f n thl.n!J 9oing oo. MR . II. YOUNG: 1\ point oF order, Mr. ~hill rt1 11). MJ:C. CHA!Kr-~N (AylwardJ : A point of order. Point of oracr . •rho hon . the Minister of t'ltbUc 1~on:s on a point or urdcr. 11R . YOUNG: Mr . Chairman, I thin" he has made an accusation there now and 1 th ~ nk ne snould withdraw his remarks. SOME HON .

M~~ERS : - ------ Oh, oh! MIL CIIAllt.'~\N : I t!o not utJrcl.! Lhul: it ll; .. point of order . The hon . the member for 'l'orqat Mount<~.ins . M:~. \•IA~Rt;.N: ·~r. <.:ha1.rman , 1 am \~Ondcrinq if the Ombuasmiln hold more on his stu [ ~, I arr j u:;t wonder i nq nbout t;w Minister of Educacion (Ms . L. VergeJ,l wonder woulo he writ.<) a similar report about her . ·J.he HinJ.ster of Finance (Dr . . .1. Collins! and the ~inister of Labour and "'lanpo\.;er i~1r.J . uinn) I am sure he would wrJ.te prob<tbiy many simJ.Hsr reports Ilk ~' -chis. So, Mr.

Cnairman, the only proolem is thar. the Ombudsmun has not got enough on his staff . In fact T would like to sec tnn~c or four· hoclyqu<~rdc; llrqpp(,.l ofr frnm thC" i>t·cmit>r':' ~t.,rr 2 I •< I

June 7 , 1982 Tape No . 1008 MJ - 2 i-tR. G . WAR!< EN : and so.me ex<:.ra staff put on to chc Omhudsman' z ,.,:,ere :1e can uncover more of this . Because , Mr . Chairman , what has he uncovered here is a minister interferring with the Publi c Service Commiss1.on. Now what is the po1nt of having a ~ublic Service Commission if number one person does not get the job? What is the good of being number one? I remember a few years ago , .1'1r. Chairman , I sat in on an interview in 1978 ·.

I sat in e n an intervie ,., interviewing Sllllll'ho<ly 1vi th t· h<~ t'kpartmf!r1t of Hur«l Development , 1\t thllt time there were t\•IO members from the Public Service Commission and myself . We did an interview and,in fact, I think it was ·eleven or twelve were intervie wed for a !>OSition, and; Mr . Cha1rman , ,.,hen the recomntendations came bacl< from the Public Service Commissl.on ,n umber one did not get the job . Number one recommenda tion_ did not get the job . No1r1 why? I \•rould venture to say it could have been the same reason , it everything was found out . 2 I •+ H

June 7, 1982 Tape No. 1009 AH-1 MR. WARREN: It could have been the same reason as what happened with the Minister o [ Fishcri<!S ( Mr. Mor<J<tn ) position. The Minister of Fisheries intervened. And it could not. have necessarily been the Minister of Rural Development (Mr. Goudie) .It could have been his deputy minister or some other high official within his de~artment. So, Mr. Chairman, we are not treating the Public Service Commission serious L•ncuqh.

Tl. thc•y mdkl~ ;1 1~ccnnunc•ndc1t ·ion, .1tHi '\1,, recommendation coincides with the members in the department thut the person has applied for-like in this last one that the OmbuJsm.:tn reported. The individual that this person was going to be responsible for, the individual Lhut this person was qoinq Lo he responsible for recommended that the number one person would get the job, but the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan ) said no, he said the number two position. And the Minister of Fisheries ( Mr. Morgan) did not even know the number two position, he never met the number two position.

He did not even know who he was. All he knew was that he was painted blue.That was the only reason. MR. TULK: What colour was that? MIL \"11\RREN: illuc. So now, M1·. Clwit·m;Jn, i:; th:~t reason enoULJh to put a person in such <:1 !JOS it ion ':' 'l'llc d i I'L'd.,,r said,' look, I know n·~mber one. I have had a number one workin~1 with me for the past two or three years, so let us give number one the position.' And the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.

Morgan) said, ' no, we will take two.' And going back and finding out two's credentials, number two's credentials are that there is an association there •!lith the government in power. There is the association. Now what clocs that hetve to clo with lhe man';; inl,,lliqc•ncc or his ability to do 3. day's work? Now, Mr. Chairman, I believe that we have to give more emphasis to what the Ombudsam reports. I knew he was a political appointment, but let us give him 2i'+Li

June 7, 1982 Tape No . 1009 ah - 2 MR. WARREN: credit that with only a staff of three, I think, he came up with this report on a particular minister . And I suppose it is like my colleague, the Leader o f the Oppositio n (Mr. Neary) said, ' Strike three and you are out! But for some reason in baseball in Newfoundland you need more than three strikes. You kn0\11, in every baseball game right across Canada and in the United States, anywhere at all , after three strikes you are out . But if you play a baseball game in Newfoundland , like the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.

Morgan) has been playing, you can get more thun three strikes and you are not out . So how many strikes are needed? I guess we must have a new type of game connected up and you need more than three strikes to get out . HR . CALLAN: Tiddly Winks. MR . IVARREN: You know, I do not have to go down and name the three strikes that the minis .ter got . I think the hon. Leader of the Opposition has named them before . But his latest str ike, naturally - in fact, he almost had two simultaneously the last time , was it not? MR . CALLAN: Almost at the same time . MR . WARREN: Almost at the same time, right .

One with the judge 2 ·, r;.., - .. ;

June 7, 1982 Tape 1010 EC - 1 MR. WARREN: and one Vlith the Ombudsman. So, Mr. Chairman, I believe that we should increase the budget for the Parliamentary Commissioner. I think we should increase his budget from $128,000- now I think it should be increased much more. I think the Ombudsman should be given more staff. MR. NEARY: And given more authority. MR. WARREN: Given more authority and more staff. And I would think next year this time, give the Ombudsman two more people on his staff and we will see a lot of red faces on that side.

And I would venture to say there has been interference with the Civil Service Commission. In fact, I could tell you about a deputy minister who called up the Civil Service Commission a:1t1 said, 'r.ook, number on0 T do not Will\ t:, I want number two.' This has happened.

So, Mr.Chairman, let us not think that we are naive enough to know that the message is not getting through to the Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, because they are beginning to see, and all we need to do is get a couple of more reports from the Omb".ldsman, get a couple of more reports concerning interferences with the judicial system, a couple of those reports, Mr. Chairman, then all of a sudden it is going to get out to the people.

And they are saying, 'Well, that Premier we have is not as honest as I thought he was.' That is what they are going to say. 'I really thought he was an honest man, but we are beginning to believe he is not really that honest after all.' MR. TULK: They are saying it nm-1- MR. WARREN: They are even saying it now. HR. 'rULK: - about his house. MR. WARREN· Yes, about his house. You know, you can have all 2 l ·-'

June 7, 1982 Tape 1010 EC ~ 2 MR . WARREN: the bodyguards you want, you ca:< have all the chain link fences , but one thing you cannot keep in with bodyguards and chain link fences is honesty . You cannot keep that in . MR . CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : Order, please ! The hon. member ' s time has elapsed . MR . NARREN: .!<lr. Chairman, hO\ol quickly the time goes ! ~IR . HODDER: Mr. Chairman . ~ffi . CHAIRMAN: The hon . the member £or Port <1U Port . 1-ffi . HODDER: Mr . Chairman, I just want to say a couple of \-.rords in response to what the member for Humber West (Mr.

Baird) said a few minutes ago here in the House of Assembly . MR. TULK : It is not very often he speaks but when he doe~ he puts his foot in his mouth. MR. HODDER: Yes, Mr . Chairman, it is not very often he speaks , either here in the House of Assembly or in Committee . MR . NEARY : Be has ' foot in mouth' disease. r-tR. HODDER: Mr . Speaker, I want to put something right . Because the member said this morning , and he sai d again here in the Ho\lse this afternoo n, that I had complained this morning about the lack of partic i pation of government members in the Conunittee .

He went on to say that last year I had been complaining otherwise - and I think he said this publicly as \-lell, 2 I. ) •J

June 7, 198'2 •rape lOll PK -1 MR. HODDER: that J had been complaining otherwise because there ~1as not enough :.ime for Opposition members to get their questions in. t-ir. Chairman, I would just like to tell the nember .for Humber l·iest Wa. Baird) categorically that I was not a member of the Social Services Committee last year. MR. 1-ffiA~Y: So he lied. l>1R. WARREN: 2e lied to the House. MR. HODDER: Mr. Chairman, '1/hen t:he member for !lumber ~;est. s<~ys th<~t t spc'1k out oC l>oth sid,•s or my mouth, Mr. Cha~rman, l would like to put that right b~cause. t-1r.

Chairman,this is the £irst time I have sat on the Committee for b11o years. And I would say to thE: member for Humber \Ves,;,even though he sort of slunk out of the uousc after he made his co~~ents,that I have never, never complained about the lack of opportunity for the Opposition to speak on that particular Conunittee or any other Committee. But, Mr. ChairiT'.an, l have certainly seen that hon. member sitting on the Co~~ittee, for years and years and years he has been sitting there and ~as said nothing.

And I chink the records '~ill show,and there are transcripts made of those proceedings as there are made here in the House, and the Opposition members are the only ones-no1" I '"ill admit, Mr. Chu irman, th<i t this morning,after I had made my comments ~ut of disgust that there were more comments that came from members on the other side, which I think is quite good, Mr. Chairman. We are all Newfoundlanders.

Whether t•e sit on either side of this House,if these estimates are coming before the Committees,! think it is more than incumbent upon any nt<:!mbcr in Lh.ls !louse to nwkc sur~'! tll..tL 1 he publ l~,; ruud~ 2' .. 0 '....., •

June 7, l 982 Tape lOll PK - 2 MR . HODDER: of this Province are spent correctly . And when the member for Humber West (Mr. Baird) makes a public statement that I said one thing last year und ,,no thor thinq this year, Mr. Ch<~irman, the truth speaks for itself bec~use I did not sit on that Committee last year and I have never made such statements .

But I will reiterate the statement 1 made this morning,and I will say it for all Coromittees,that the government members,if they think they are serving the Province well by sitting there and praising the minister . or interjecting 111hen the Opposition has a line of questioning going to protect the minister.that they are serving the best interest of the people of this Province, Mr . Chairman , then I would say that we are in sad shape indeed . But when the member for Humber ~vest names me personally as having spoken both ways,and he said 'last year', Mr.

Chairman, the truth and the records will speak for itself .. som : liON. HE~tBERS: near, hear ! M.R . CHAIRMAN (Aylward): the Capes . MR. HEARN : The hon . member for St . Mary 's- Mr. Chairman, as a member of the Social Services Committee I take exception to some of the remarks made by the member for Port au ?ort (Mr . Hodder) . You know, we on 2 I~ :

June 7, 1982 Tape No. 1012 SD - 1 MR. HEARN: this side of the House feel rather generous when we look across the House at the lowly Opposition. And in co~nittee,where they are complaining about five of us and two of them ,we give them every courtesy and we let them ask the questions to a certain degree.

Ilowever, after listening to the last two speakers,both of whom are on the same committee that I am on,and when you listen to the roundabout way that they have of bringing out a point and you realize how long it takes, number one, for ther. to ask a question unu,number two, fot-tilL' Chairm;:m Ln unclt't-st-;mc1 or the minister to understand what they mean, you realizr how frustrating it is to get a question in.

I would also suggest that the t.ranscript will show that the governl:!ent members ask questions,and that if you look at the quantity of ques·tions asked we may be outnumbered a little bit by the Opposition,but if you look at the quality of the questions, the day. the government side would certainly win SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : MR. PEACH: Hear, hear. The bon. member for Carbonear. Mr. Chairman, I would also like to take exception to the comment made a few minutes ago by the in-llouse LL!udcr o[ the Opposition (M1·.

Neal-y), think it was, who referred to some of us here as dumb-bells - I think was the word. I guess we could somewhat pardon him with his limited vocabulary. However, I had the privilege and pleasure of attending three of those such committee meetings, one with Health, one with Labour and Manpower, and one with Municipal Affairs this morning.and in all three coscs, Mr.

Chainn;m, J d.id p<lt-licipi.ilc in discussion and ,as my hon. colleague just noted, 1r1e outnumbered the Opposition members present-In each case at the meetinqs I attended there was only one from the Opposition in attendance,so we did have to give them the courtesy of having 2 l .j ~~

"" ;hi l l (' 7 ' 191l2 Tape No. 1012 SD - 2 MR. PEACII: five questions to our one , I gue ss . 'fhe .rcfore , I do not think it is r ight to say that we do not ask questions and do not participate in debate . Also, Mr . Chairma n, I have heard the hon . member conunent in the last fc\·1 day.s here in the House when he referred to many of us , the newly elected members , as shiny nosed and bright eyed , I am glad t o see that he recognizes our potential and that 111e are so bright eyed and are very much aler t and probably lvhen he looks across he can see such a glow and a mirror over here that lvhen he looks at it it thinks he is 2 ·1 ~ ~=;

June 7, 1982 Tape No. 1.013 MJ -j_ MR. M. PEACH: looking in a mirror and probably calling himself by the word he used to cefer to 11s as tlumb-bells. So again, Mr. Chairman, I would like to say that from the meetings that I have attended, that members of this side of the !louse have pu.cti_cipated and purticiputed well ancl huv(~ .:~sk('(] questions that did not take ten minutes to come forth with the question but stated the question at the beginning and then the minister could answer it. M!:<.. W. CALLAN: Mr. Chairman. M_R. _ S:H~J_!3M~~J_j{\y} w~ !"91 ~ _ 'l'hc hon. the mc:mber For Bellevue. MR. Cl•LLAN : Mr.

Chairman, I would like to make a few comments regarding the committee system without using any derogatory adjectives to describe members on either side. SOME BON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. CALLAN: What I want to do though is detend myself. And I make no apologies, Mr. Chairman. Last Thursday the Resource Committee met. riqht here in thrs J\sscmbly wjLlt the Minister of Development (Mr. N. Winsor). lt was his department that we were dealing with on that particular morning.

Now the one o; clock news, as J. was eating my 1 unch at my desk because I did not have time to go down stairs and stay down there, Wi1S eati.nq IllY lunch i1t my desk with l:lw r<l<iio on and the number one story on the stat1on that 1 was listening to-and l am not condemning the press; far be it from me because I think tne Premier will probably live to regret condemning the press because1as all hon. members are aware, I am sure, that you do not win when you attack the press. So I am not condemning -but anyway the number one story was mentioned that the member for 13cdlevue (Mi-.W.

Cul.l<.ln), wh<1 w,1s the only member present on the Committee,came in twenty-five minutes late and did not have any questions. Now, Mr. Chairman, 2 ;j l

.llliW 7 I 1982 'l'il!;JC No. lOl J MJ - 2 MR • \'I • CJ\LLAN : I want to explain . I want to exp lain ,and I want to agree with what the Leader of the Opposition (~~ - S. Neary) said in his remarks earlier , that it i ~ nnf.1 I 1, nnd l:he member for I lumber West (t-lr . 1~ . llai rd) is being unfair when he compares the work load of a dozen backbenchers on the government side \o~ith eight Opposition members .

I mean,the member is aware, I am sure, that the things that '"e are called on to do and to investigate and so on as Opposition members in no way compares with what a dozen, say, or even twenty backbenchers on the government side ho~v l' 111 d••.ll '"it ·11. ll••c,,u:H' lf't us file<' it , it is th~ Cilbinct and the people surrounding the Cabinet and the Premier who have the Hork load on the gove rn ment side .

So I do believe, as I have said , I do agree with the Leader of the Oppositio n that it would not be considered unfair or a waste of the tnxpCiycrs 'dollars if the Premier had decided to qive each Opposition member a secretary per member . Because as I said , the reason on Thursday morning past when we were into that Department of Development , the reason that I did not have any questions and the reason 2 I • aJ;I

June 7, 1982 Tape 1014 EC - 1 MR. CALLAN: I got up several times to leave is because I had - What is it: the Bible says? - "I was about my Father's business." MR. NEARY: Right on! MR. CALI,AN: I was about my father's business. I got up to leave the Committee on two or three occasions to make phone calls, very important phone calls. Let me just mention one of the phone calls . I tl:ink everybody is aware, Mr. Chairman, that all last week there was a big hullabaloo, a big controversy regarding the future of the Markland ~ospital. It has not died down yet. Obviously it will continue this week and next week.

But especially last week,when the thing surfaced for the first time, I was receiving phone calls from everybody. I had certain phone calls to make,to make my contacts and so on and so on. So, Mr. Chairman, ·that was just one of the things that I had on my plate. I think, Mr. Chairman, that all members will agree that it has been traditional, the reason why the House of Assembly, for example, traditionally has not met in the morning but has met in the afternoon,is to give the government at least half the day to do the routine work. I mean, that has been tradition.

But when you expect eight Opposition members to give up their morning and their afternoon, what time is left for constituency work? ·rhat is the only excuse. 'l'lwt is the only excuse -and it is not an excuse, Mr. Chairman, it is a reason - that is the reason why I disagree with the Committee system. Now, let me react to the member of the press who suggested in the report that 2 : J •/

June 7, 1982 Tape 1014 EC - 2 1'1R . CALLAN: was given - in a couple of the pre!':!>, T snw it; I rend one ann r heard onr - that, you know, the hon . the member for Be.llevue (Mr . Callan) did not have any questions . Let me just go through briefly, Mr. Chairman, some questions that are here on the Order Paper for the Minister of Development (Mr. \17insor). I could have asked these questions that same morning but , as I said , I had to get up and leave on sever.al occasions . I arrived late for the same reason . By the way, I mentioned the Markland ~ospital, Mr .

Chairman, I think I should mention something else . The Premier , a coup l e of times last week , and the Minister of Fi sheries (Mr. Morgan) on another occasion, .11:. least. three times last week , t heard the Premier twice and the Minister of Fisheries once , gloating over the government guarantees and the grants and the loans that \-lere given to fish plants around this Provin ce . They talked abo ut it in the context of ' let us compare St . Anthony with the others ' and so on . But, Mr . Chairman. some of the work that I had to do last week 'Was,and perhaps the Minister of Justice (Mr .

Ottenheimer) can verify that lvhat I am saying is true, that a lot of these grants and loans, even though they were announced publicly probably a month ago or longer , that these fish plant operators do not have that money . They do not have that working capital 2 ! ~~ •I • I -

June 7, 1982 Tape No . 1015 SD- 1 HR . CALLAN: in their hands . And I spent a f~J.r amount of time last week trying to look after one of my constituents so that he could meet his payrolJ. in the fish plant that he was operatinq . Anc the Mir,ister of Justice (t-1r. Ottenheimer) , o1S I h.:~vc snid knov;s full \-Tell that, you know, it has to go from rinancc to Justice anti so on,and hy the time the at:t 1111l ch Ct !ll< ' arrivus in the hands of the fi.sh plant opcrat:o:: , n \oL of time has expi red. But let me refer, ?lr. Chairman, to some questions that I as}tcd the Minister of Developm.::nt (Mr.

Windsor) ; they are on the Order Paper . I could have asked them last Thursday but I did noc. Now then 1 " the member for Bellevue to ask the hon . l-linister of Devclopmcm: to la:; upo:1 the 'i'a.:~lc: ol ' the !louse t.hc tf)llovdn·~ .in l'ut ·maLi or.: the number of trips caken by the minister during the fiscal years 1979, 1980 and 1981: the reason for the trip ; places visited "3.nd so on and so on. That is just one .

On another Ordet: Paper, '"rhe member for Bellevue ~.o ask I lac• Mini:.;l··•- nt · llo'V<'IIIJIIII<'III too !.1y Ill'"" I h•• 'l' .llll•• ol ' lloo• House the !ollowin; information: che amount of housiny in Labrador Hhicr. was const.ruc::ed by the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation: · And a!'!other one riqht here 1 'JTo ask the bon. 1-linister of Develo;:>ment to l.::~y upon the Table of the House the followir.g informatj on : 1.,0h<J t legal firms and what fees Here paid for legal work for the Ncwfouncll and and Labru<lor Ocvc lopmcnt C<" lt'porll t ion .

" And if I can just take one final example, ~<!r. Chairman," '!'h£ me~ber for Belle~~~ to ask the Minister of Developm~nt to lay upon the Table of the House the follo11:inq informatjon : a list showing the loans by the Ne\vfoundland and Lab.r<~dor Development corporation to industries that fuilcu anu assets of companies sold by public auct ton or s,mu.! other means to recover part of the funding of such compnnio.!s." And. Mr. Chairman, the Minister of Development, of course, in z: ...

June 7, 1982 Tape No . 1015 SD - 2 MR . CALLAN : his opening fifteen minute remark - \vhic h I heard, by the way, so I was not twenty -five minutes l<tte , c:ontrary to the report that was on the radio ; I was not tl~enty-five minutes late - but the ministe r in his remarks and in answer to several questions wrongly condemned the federal government for the non-signing of a new tourist agreement . But that, Hr . Chairman, is typical of the other committee meeting that I attended . It is traditional, cspecielly in thP.

Resources Commil:tP.~ . to hear the ministers condemn Ottawa right , left and center,as of course they do here practically on a daily basis during the Oral Question Period,and even in the questions that were asked today regarding the stumpage fees and so on , the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr . Power) could not help IJul hrinq in nnd try to blnn•e in some lvily the federal government for that as well ,even though, Mr . Chairman , the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands knows when he said we charge stumpage where ~-i e build roads and the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands , l'tr .

Chairman , knows full well , and nerha~s the feder~l 21o

June 7, 1982 Tape 1016 PK - 1 MR. CALLAN: Liberal Government in Ottawa is very negligent, very neglig~nt in blowing their own horn in this Province because in the boondocks and all over this Province I think there are ~n awful lot cf people, an awful lot of people who work un projects and who travel over roads and enter buildings not realizing that 90 per cent of it came from the federal Liberal Government in Ottawa - in many cases 100 per cent~ and in many cases - well in all cases 50 per cer.t.

If a water and a sewer project is approved,for example,for Norman's Cove this year, fifty cents uul or every doll.tr Lhal will qo into that project,even though it is approved by the Provincial Government, everybody knows that fifty cents out of every dollar that is spent in this Province is federal money an)'way. And of course the forest access roads, the minister tried tomake a suggestion here that we are providing those roads, so therefore it is fine,and you cannot blame us for charging a stumpage, a royalty,when he knows full well that these forest access roads are 90 per cent funded by the federal government.

Then the minister also talked about his infestation of the forest and the fine job that his department is doing in cleaninq it up. We hud a programme in my district, if the Trans-Canada Highway can be classified as being in somebody's district 1it can when the list of roads works comes down. Last year, for example, the member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush)-remember? - that in the list of road works for his district,$3.5 million for Terra Nova. And there was not one copper spent in Terra Nova, not one copper. All of that had to do with the Overpass at the Glovertown intersection on the Trans-Canada Highway.

BuL they put it in with Terra Nova,as they did in my district, of course, in Bellevue, the couple of million dollars that was spent on the •rrans-Canada between the Chance Cove Road and the Welcome Inn at Goobies,all of that was lumped in as 2 u

,, June 7, 1982 ~\H. l'At.l.i\N : . - -- t-1R . CHAI~1A.~ (Aylward} : t-1R . CALLAN : Tape 1016 PK - 2 moJli'Y hrjnq Rpcnl in nollcvuc . Order, please ! And my time ~s up, Mr . Chairman . So I '"ill continue at some other time . Thank you . MR . CHJ\IRMAN : Before I recognize the hon. member for Burin-Placentia West (Mr . Tobin}, I would like to make a ruling on a point of order which was raised by the President of the Council (Mr . Marshall) on Friday concerninq such words as 'lacky' and 'stooge ' which were used ~ this House by the Leader of the Opposition (r-tr . Neary) .

I have done some research on this and I cannot find in any of the Parliamentary reference books or any debate that these words have been ruled unparliamentary. /. : I'

,June 7, 1982 'l'apc No. 1017 11\-1 MR . CRAIRMA.l'J (AYLWARD): So rn.y ruling is that there was no point of order. But I would like to remind members on both sides of the House that depending on the tone in which certain words are used, they could in some future time be ruled unparliamentary language. The hon. member for Burin-Pluccntia West. MR. TOBIN: Mr. Chairman, like many other of my colleagues, I too take exception to the remarks directed towards us by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary) and cert.u inl y by the Opposition llotiSc~ i.c';Hlt•r (~11 • IIndell' I l. have attended every meeting of the Resource Committee and I have asked questions at every meeting. J.,ast Thursday, Mr. Chairman, we were in meetings from nine-thirty until twelve-thirty without the Opposition asking one sinqlc question. The questions were directed to the minister by the government members. I believe that I asked my fair share of 1uest.ions at that meeting as well. Mr. Chairman, I there[or'e do not feel that the remarks that were made by these two honourable gentlemen were directed at me because I asked questions.

However, I believe that the word- 'dummies' or 'dumb-bell:::' are certainl v ·part of the vocabulary of the t'V!O people, and these two people must be very familiar with the words. I feel a little disappointed, Sir, that they have referred to people who do not ask questions as 'dummies' and have put their own colleague, the member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan), in a situation where he is basically referred to as a 'dummy' because he did not ask questions, and have put him in the situation where he just had to stand up and explain to this llousc why he did not ask questions. Well,I would like to say, Mr.

Chairman, that I enjoyed working on the Committee with the bon. member for Bellevue,and I do not think he deserves to 2 1 ~ I • I

June 7, 1982 Tape No. 1017 IB -2 Mil. 'l'OBIN : be ritt~d in that cate~1ory, that people who did not ask questions he called 'dummi es '. I believe that, as he said,that morning he had other questions to ask and he will ask them at other times, that he did not want to ask questions . And I do not believe for one minute thi.lt he shoulcl be referred to as a dummy by the two gentleme n opposite . Mr .

Chairman, I believe that the greatest problem , the thing that agitates the two gentlemen, is the fact that most of the Committees are made up by nevi members and it is the quality of quest ion s that are asked by the new members . ~;mu: liON . MJ •:t-11\I·:H!> : 11..:><~ r, lw., r! ---- NR . 'l.'ODIN : It is the quality of questions that are asked by the ne\o~ members , Mr . Chairman, that upsets the people opposite . They know that we can ask questions and that we get direct and honest responses from the ministers involved . And they should also realize that quality is what counts and not the quantity .

SOME liON . t-tEMDRRS : Hear , hear! P.IR. TOBIN : Mr . Chairman, I am proud to work on the Committee . I look forward to working for the rest of this year and other years to come , and any time that 2 I • 1 (J r. "'

June 7, 1982 Tape No. 1018 MLeP-1 MR. G. TOBIN : I do not feel it is fit to ask a question, I do not think that I should be referred to as the dummy or a dumb-bell by the two gentlemen opposite. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman. Mft. Cl ll\ TRMJ\N (Dr. M< :Ni cho l.:ts: ) 'T'ho hon. Lc•,lch'r nf t-.ht' (ll'l'n~:it·i"n . MR. NEARY: Before we carry it I h~ve to respond. I am under heavy attack from these l)ushy-tuilec1, briqht- eyed members. I really feel bad I am under such heavy att.:~ck. Mr.

Chairman, how naive can you be? !low naive Ciln you •ret? lion. gentleman go in and ask the ministers to tell them what nice fellows they are. MR. WARREN: Yes. MR. NEARY: " Tell me, Mr. Minister, tell me what a nice fellow you are today." First, before they go to the committee meeting, they have to go and kiss the Premier's picture. MR. TOBIN: Twice. MR. HODDER: Worse than twice, ten times. MIL N 1':/\ HY: /\1HI lht·n, 'I" ittl<~ ,1 <'llllllllillt•t• 111<'<'1 itl<l and say, "Mr. Minis-r::.er, tell me what a nice fellow you are." MR. TOBIN: That is what you had to do when you were a backbencher. MR.

NEARY: Now, Mr. Chairman, let nobody be under any illusions of who asks the embarrasing questions of government. And it is not by privilege, by the way, and the hon. gentleman from St. Mary's- The Capes ( Mr. Hearn) should bear this in mind, that the majority of time is the Opposition's time. It is the Opposition who carries the ball, not the government, not the members who are trying to prop up the administration and try to make the administration look good. It is not a privilege- you do not 'Jive the Opposition a privileqe- thut is a tradition. 'l'hc hc1n. qcnt1<•m.1n may learn t;1.at as time goes on.

I am not qoing to give the hon. qcnt I cn1an a lecture on the tradition of Parliament, but I just want to say this, that no member on this side of the House asks a question as a matter of privilege because somebody on the government's side was tryinq to

.June 7 , 1982 Tape No . 1018 MLeP-2 MR . Nf.l\RY: - -- That is our right and our privilege . Tt is the~ Opposition which is responsible for scrutinizing the estimates . So , Mr . Chairman, I thought I would have te put these ~"<' "' n•n~<u · k: : i.n n.·~ponsc~ Ln Lhc hcovy at tuck t l1,1t l hnvc been under , tile stinging , stin ging attack , the vicious attack I have been under from these bright-eyed, bushy-tailed members, Nr . Chairman . MR. MARSHALL: Mr . Chairman, if I may . IKR. CHAIRMAN{ Dr . McNicholas) : The hon . the Pres ident of the Cou ncil . ~1R .

Ml\RSIII\LL : l just 1vant to draw to their attention , because I kno ... 1 the hon . gentlemen there oppos i te do not knm..r the rules, they have not read the rules , and every t i.mo Lhey qot up o n a point of order they do not quote any authorities either the Standing Orders of the House , which c3overn the conduct o£ the House ,• or Beauchesne or Erskine May m· 1..rh.1 tcvc r it may be. Nm,• 1 have henrd a lot made by the Opposition about the fact that there 1vere not questions asked by the members on the government side .

The gover nment side, you know , has asked questions , and I wi~ not go into that again, but as far as the Opposition is concerned , and they do not know the rules of the House, poor fello 1•1s, Mr . Chairman - but I quote to yo u standing orde.r 86 (

b) lvhich says as follows : •'J ' 1 t. I lJ ) ,

June 7, 1982 Tape No. 1019 PS - l MR. MARSHALL: "Any member of the House who is not a member of a Standing Committee" - now, 'not a member of a Standing Committee', the hon. member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) understands what 'not' means - "Not a member of a Standing Committee, may, unless the House or the committee concerned otherwise orders" - the House has not ordered, and the cormnittcc will not order - "may t,1kc

part in tlw public proceedings of the committee, but he may not vote or move any _motion nor shall he be part of any quorum." SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: So, the fact of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, if the hon. gentlemen there opposite >vish to, they could, all. eight of them could, attend the conunittee, they could outnumber the government members eight to five if they wish ~o. Now, they cannot vote because that is the way. MR. NEARY: That is the catch. MR. MARSHALL: Yes, well that is fine.

Now the complaint was not that they could not vote, the complaint was that there were m)t enough lJUesti.ons lJci.nq u.skl~d. J I two of them, if the two standard members can not ask enough questions, Mr. Speaker, they can add one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, or eight - but they can not add anymore than eight, of course. But they can add eight. It is regrettable, Mr. Chairman, that such a fine system, a democratic system that has been set up, has not been utilized by the Opposition. l\ncl it is even more rcgrcttal.Jlc, Mr.

Chairman, that the Opposition - I do not believe that the Opposition is completely stunned; I believe the Opposition is stunned but I do not believe it is completely stunned - but what is regrettable is the Standing Orders of this House precisely qivc the hen. members the opportunity to so do. And I will make an undertaking on behalf of the government 2 i l..J •..J

.June 7, 1982 Tape No. 1019 PS - 2 MR. MARSHALL: too, Mr. Chairman, that five members of the government always turn up; if all eight members turn up, only two may vote, but we will not send another three or another sixteen or anything like that, so they can ask all the questions they want to if they have the interest. But the fact of the matter is, Mr. Chairman, as Mr. Chairman knows, they have not got the interest. !>iR. T0)3IN: '!'hat is right. MR.

MARSHALL: All they want to do is try to paint this government has being all-powerful, as being arrogant bec.:1use it has .:1ll these numbers, is runninq over the poor, defenseless opposition. Now here is something, Mr. Chairman, that we are assisting the Opposition in; we are telling them the rules, the rules had of been there for two, three or four years that they had not read, and if they wish