Volume 1 ... PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SEVENTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st. Session VERBATIM REPORT FRIDAY, AP~IL 30, 1976 Number 54 SPEAKER; THE HONOURABLE GERALD' RYAN OTTENHEIMER

April 30, 1976 The Rouse met at 10:00 A.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR,_2?E~ER: Order, ))lease: Tape No. 2348 STATE~NTS BY MINISTERS: NM- 1 MR.__§_P~Rl_. The hon. Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations. MR. ~YNARD: I am pleased to be able to announce today our decision to proceed with a program to provide consultative services to employers and unions in an effort to bring about better communications between Management, Labour and Government. The Government, as is everyone else, is particularly concerned over the increase in the number of man-hours lost during recent years as a result of work stoppages.

The number is unJ)recedented in the Province's history and we feel that positive steps must be taken to reduce the lost time. While many of the causes for work stoppages are as a result of confrontation between employers and employees respecting working conditions, there are many instances in which work stoppages could have been averted if good lines of communications had been established between the parties.

While acceptable channels of communication exist between some groups of unions and employers t4hich have signed collective agreements; there are indications in some industries and operations that third party involvement may be desirable as a means to promote better union-management relations. In effect, the primary purpose of this new consultative service to both Management and Labour will be to assist the parties in developing improved relations and, as well, to develop the system to deal with differences which may arise during the life of a collective agreement.

Where the terms of agreement are for periods of from 1 to 3 years, a problem frequently arises concerning changes which may occur in the operation during the term of the agreement. While employees do not ordinarily resist change, any number of difficulties can arise when new technqiues or procedures are put into effect without prior consultation between unions and employers. 6356

April 30, 1976 Tape No. 2348 NM- 2 MR. !1AYNARD: If sufficient advance notice is given when changes are to occur in an operation, many of the problems can be averted. but because the traditional adversary system continues to exist between some unions and employers, quite often wildcat strikes or slow downs occur. Fortunately, many of the attitudes are changing in Newfoundland. Through the propar·Labour-Management conunittees the parties can explore 1~ays in which these problems can be overcome.

The practice of unions and employers coming together only during times of crisis, such as in bargaining aver revisions to a collective agreement, must be changed. ~ile the consultative service proposed can be provided at any time,it is not intended to be imposed on employers and unio~, but rather to seek to have them meet with a senior Labour Relations Officer and where problems exist to discuss procedures to deal with them.

The service to unions and employers will be voluntary in every respect wlth one of the main purposes to provide an opportunity for a free discussion of issues confronting the parties and to do so in a frank and clear manner. The Department of Manpower and Industrial Relations has the responsibility for taking the lead in a new program of this sort and we have every confidence in its success if Management and Labour will be receptive to it.

Where effective procedures for union - employer meetin3s exist,it may not be necessary for the Department personnel to p,et involved, hut where collective agreements do not exist or where experience has shown that differences continue to arise as a result of inadequate procedures to deal 1dth the issues that exist 1 then we would like to have members of the staff meet with the parties on a joint or private basis to consider the feasibility of establishing Union-Management Committees.

This new service the Department of Manpower and Industrial Relations is proposing is not confined to the larger operations but to any employer, union or group of employees who have difficulty. lVhile the ultimate weapon could be a work stoppage or a closedown of operations, we believe a more realistic approach would be to encourage 6357

April 30, 1976 Tape No. 2348 NM- 3 ~·- MA!NA~: positive Industrial Relations in order to reduce the incidence of employee-employer confrontation, due to misunderstanding or indifference. We believe that a positive attitude towards a Labour-Management program would overcome many of the problems that lead to work stoppages and the loss of productivity among the ~.rork force. MR. HICKMAN; MR- ROBERTS: Hear: Hear! Mr.

Speaker, if I understood the minister's statement- and although I listened to it with care and attention I am not sure that I did understand it because it struck me as one of the better example of turgid prose that I have ever heard in the House - but ~f I did understand it, Mr. Speaker, I think it should be welcomed for what it is, although as the gentleman from' LaPoile (Mr. Neary) just said, it is nothing really very new or very radical.

But I think anybody who is the least bit interested or concerned with labour relations or labour-management relations in this Province 1must be aware of the fact that they are not in very good shape and must be ready to welcome aaything which will attempt to better them or to ameliorate them. The minister's sta~ement,I assume,will achieve tha~,although I am not sure that, to be quite honest, that I or anybody else in the Houae,except possibly the minister,really understands what he said.

We will have the opportunity to study it and if we are ever allowed the privilege of debating the estimates of his department we will have the opportunity perhaps to discuss it and to allow him to expound at greater length and possibly even to explain what it is he has in mind. I wonder though, Mr. Speaker, if the minister could answer a question since we are on this field of trying to improve labour~ management relations. Some years ago, two or three, the Premier aanounced that we were going to have a great international conference on wildcat strikes.

We had a royal commission which produced one of the most dismally bad reports that any royal commission has ever produced on the subject of wildcat strikes. It was a 6358

April 30, 1976 Tape No. 2348 NM - 4 .~ .... . R.O~ERTS : penetrating insight into the obvious and it was ~ecided hy the government as a result of tnat effort that tht>re was going to be a great international conference here in Newfoundland on this vexing subject of what could be done. what possible steps could be taken , to try to improve labour management negotiations. ~fell , Sir , that 6359

Apri-l. 30, 1976 Tape 2349 IB-1 ~ • ROBERTS : became one of the 169 unkept promises of the government and I am wondering now if the minister could tell us whether he intends to proceerl .with this conference. If so, when? And if not, Sir, would ~e confirm the fact that it has now gone into the pigeonhole reserved for royal cormission reports that are not what the government wishes to hear and political promises that the government make before elections~ r'l!.. }I.AYNAP.I'l: ~<r.

Speaker, I can certainly answer the question and expound on it in some detail but I think it is a question more appropriate for the Question Period as opposed to the item on the 0rders of the nay that; deals with ministers' statements. ~'R. SPEAKETI : The hon. member for Twillingate. ''P • sr•ALLWOOD: ~~r. Speaker, I listened also with some in tens:! . ty ancl a considerable amount of incomprehetlsion.

I am not sure yet that I understooc •..rhat the m:l.nister said,but I do gather the stronr, i111pr.ession that the minister is very anxious to brin~ in somethinR, to take some steps to allev:late what :Is admittedly a pretty bad and discourag1ng s1 tuat:! .on in our Province today. And indeed not only in our Prov:!nce, but I am afraid across r.anada and in other parts of North America and :Indeed in other parts of the Horld. It is a discouraging situation and Cod knows so~thing needs to be done. What that something is I confess very frankly I do not know. I hope truly that the minister knows.

I hope that hi~ remecies will. be effective remedies. I give him full marks for wanting, for trying to accomplish something in this direction. l"hen we kno•·' more precisely of the proposals he has in mind we w:lll be better able to judge the efficacy of them or the likely efficacy of them. But in the meantime I congratulate h:!.m on bringin~ in from his department and from his officials and himself,and perhaps his coll.ear,ues in the cabinet,this statement that he has given us today. ~'r. SPF..-'XE".: 1'he hon. Minister of Tourism. l'R.

HICKEY: l'r. :=:peaker, l wish to inform the Rouse of the big game licens1n~ $ystem used for 1976 huntinp, season. This system was arrived 6360

April 30,1976 Tape 2349 IB-2 1"!'. HICKEY: at after ~etailed analysis of the system in operation ~uring 1974 and 1975 huntinr seasons,which I must say generate~ a considerable amount of cr:l.tid.sm by local hunters. Five main areas of criticism were as follows: The lateness of notHyin~ hunters of their success; the people who have ~one as many as two years without receiving a license; unqualified hunters received licenses; hunters could hold a moose or caribou license in consecutive years and more than one license could be issued per f.amily.

TlegarrHess of which system is used to allocate licenses it ,~nl be impossible to satisfy everyone. Therefore a certain amount of. criticism of any system is inevitable. Hhat we are attempting to do now is to bring in an interim measure to deal ,,,ith the i=ediate problems,bearing in mind that further modifications may be required to improve the system. The ne~1 system is as follm•s: One, '"e will retain the quota system. This is the only system whereby the wildlife division can control the harvest. If the division loses this control,irreversibly damage is inevitable to both the moose and caribou populations.

This system dictates the necessity of a draw for the awarding of licenses. Two, the use of. the computer will be discontinued as a means of aw~trdinr, J icenses this year,and the li.cense allocations will be done manually through a public draw. Three, we recommend soliciting applications for moose and caribou hunting licenses as soon as possible but not later than ~<ay 17. The acceptance period for the applications wilJ be three weeks with no extension. This will enable my department to advise hunters in July whether they are successful or not. Four, we lv:lll place license applications in priority pools.

Priority one w:lll include applications from hunters who have applied for but not receive~ a license either in 197~ or 1975. Priority two ~1Hl include hunters who applied for but di~ not receive a license in 1975. Priority three will include all other applications. I should again stress at this po:l.nt that this allocation,althongh we are 6361.

1\.f't::ll 30, 1?7li Tape 2349 IB-3 ~m. trtna:Y: :tttempting to i ron out the inequities,1rll.J not satisfy the demands for the resource. Five, the obvious method to help meet this demand is a party license sy~tem. This system will permit two hunters to utili7.e nne license thus increasinr. the recreational opportunity. 6362 .. ,..

April 30, 19i6 Tape 2350 PK- 1 Mr. Hiekey: it will not be necessary to apply for a party licence during hhe initial application period. After the applicant has been notified that he or she is successful,then he or she may request a party licence instead of an individual licence. This will permit an individual holding a licence an opportunity to take one person with him or her to hunt. A party licence will cover - AN RON. MEMBER; How many people can hunt on a licence? MR. H..!fm..:_ One • AN HON. MEMBER: One. MR._HICKEY: A party licence will cover two hunters and both are permitted to carry a gun.

They may also alternate hunting. In other words, if a person is unable to hunt on a particular weekend the individual may select,or his partner may be permitted,to use that licence or the licence can be used with both hunters present,or individually. MR. NEARY: MR. HICKEY: all of this. Can a male and female go together? Yes.If My bon. friend will just wait now he will hear On each party licence one animal only may be taken.

Six, in consideration of the question of one licence per family,we made a detailed analysis of our records which indicated that less than 6 per cent of licences were awarded to more than one member of a family. Considering the small percentage no action will be taken to eliminate this possibility. Seven, during the week of May 3, applications forms will be distributed throughout the Province and will be available at most government offices.

Eight, successful applicants will receive their licences locally from government personnel after showing proof of identity, Two forms of identification will be required one of which will be the MCP card. During the next ten days I will issue a further statement pertaining to licence quotas, season dates etc. as well as improvements regarding conservation and enforcement. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! 6363

April 30, 1976 Tape 2350 PK - 2 HR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. HR. F. ROWE: Mr. Chairman, in commenting on the ministerial statemept regarding moose and caribou licences, we are all happy, Sir, in this House to see that the minister has recognized the problems and weaknesses of the last formula for the issuing of such licences, and has reacted at long la&t to the pressure and outcry from the people of Newfoundland with regard to the most unsatisfacto~ method of issuing such licences over the past year.

You know, it was obvious to every one that the previous formula, if I can c~l it that, was an utter and complete disaster and met with dissatisfaction of many people in the Province.

I did not get all of the points, and I do not have the statement in front of me, but obviously the first point that was made with respect to maintain the quota system I think is of utmost ~mportance, If that is not established obviously the resource, the moose and earibou,will cease to exist and we would not be able to carry on with the hunt on a reacreational or on the basis to get food into the homes and this sort of a thing, May 17, I am not sure, 1 have had a number of complaints, Ht.

Speaker, with respect to, you know, when people will receive notice t~t they have been successful in getting their licence, and I am not sure of the date, but am I to assume that'"" this announcement satisfies that anxiety, that now people will know in time to plan ahead for their holidays so that they can go aooae hunting and this sort of a thing? I have heard this kind of a complaint. May 3t I understand,is the time that the applications will be distributed.

And how long will it take, if the minister will just reply from his seat, how long will it take to have the applications processed and the people - HR. lliCHEY: MR. ROWE: ~·HICKEY: MR, ROWE: In July. In July. Early in July. Fine. Well, Sir, in closing I would like to mention one thing and that is, ~d 1 do not know whether it is appropriate for the minister 6364

April 30, 1976 Tape 2350 PK - 3 Mr. Rowe: to answer this at this point or during the Question Period, but can the minister assure this House that no moose licences will be issued free of charge to residents of this Province? Because 6365

April 30, 1976 Tape No. 2351 NM -- 1 ~~-~0]~~ as everybody realizes there were a total of 112 moose licences issued free of charge last year, costing the Province, I know it is a small amount,but $1.680. And if the minister can rationalize or jlmtify the reasoa.for the issuing of such moose licences free of charge to residents of this Province, we would be ready to listen and determine whether the reasons are justifiable or not. But can the minister assure the House that this occurrence will not recur this year? ~·- !_O_l!_F.~T.§_:__ Hear: !lear: Hell said. !!l'~·_S]'_~}:R: _ The hon. Minister of Tourism.

HR._JIICKE_!_:_ Hr. Speaker, I do not know if my hon. friend was here the day I p;ave the explanation for that nUlllber of licences being issued. It is not as though those licences were issued as complimentary licences to friends or to relatives or what have you, .or to special people. The 112 licences - as I explained that day in commenting on the Auditor General's Renort- were drawn in a public dl!'aw.

They were given to people in all regions of the Province, and they were given as part of a policy to encourag~ people to send in statistical data which is necessary to promote and to improve our management programme. Now I just want to repeat and make it clear again that those licences were not per sc just handed out. They were not complimentary licences in that sense of the word. It is true that they were free.

It is true that they cost the Treasury ":~t" number of dollars,but it was done as an incentive to ensure that the great majority of people at least, or a pretty fair percentap,e of the people hunting sent in the required data that is required by my division. Without mentioning names, what type of people were these licences issued? ~-.J!~~!.EY: There was no particular type of people, just anybody who was lucky enough to have their name drawn. Now I will, before 6366

April 30, 1976 Tape No. 2351 NM- 2 MR._H.!_~: . the House is adjourned, I will table the list. 'Because it seems that my efforts in terms of my statement~and I believe this is four times I have explained it, were not understood. I heard one member of the Opposition commenting to the media shortly after that explanation accusing the government of just giving out licences. This is poppycock. This is foolishness. You know1 absolute misinterpretation of the facts. So it seems that, Mr. Speaker, the only way to clear the issue is to table the list and I will gladly do so.

Now I can say one thing further. with regards to that system, In view of the fact that the Auditor General finds it unacceptable, we have looked at the whole situation and I will be making a statement on that. That system will not be in effect after this year. There will be another system which hopefully will require people to send in the info~tion and which will encourage them to send it in. But this was purely the reason for it. It is not just licences given to people whose names are picked at random.

The names were drawn publicly the same as the regular draw that we are talking about that we are going to do this year. And it was done as an incentive to get people to send in the data. r1R. ROWE : Probably a little bit of education beforehand or explanation would have solved some of that. ~. __ HIC~EY: ~~ell it colll.d have been. ~~ __ SPEAKER;_ The hon. member for Twillingate. ~'-~~~vOOD: Mr. Speaker, I hear with pleasure the remarks of the han. minister. I accept now today~as I did when he made the statement ortiinally,his explanation of the free licences.

I think this is good rock-bottom common sense in a government. I hope also that the minister offers an occasional free licence to distinguished visitors to the Province. This announcement today by the minister if it could only be coupled, as I hope it will be,with another announcement a little later of a greatly 6367

April 30, 1976 Tape No. 2351 NM- 3 ~· SMA!.LW<;x>D; :taprovefl and refqme4 systea of regulating sld-doos, snowmobiles, if these two taken together would, it seems to me be. a !lOSt eloq11ent argument in favour af having. say, three by-ele.ctiatUI eveTy year. Because in that .case the government would be on its very best behaviour and we Dlight get e:~~:cellent results 'or the ge~ral public. Mlt'-~Y.!Y..:_ Do you tnink that is w'hat is motivating them now? But it j'l\St happens to be that way. 6368 ,.

April 30, 1976 Tape 2352 IB-1 }!P. SPEAKEil: The hon. ~'inister of Forestry and Agriculture. ~·. ROUSSE!_A.!_T_: Hr. Speaker, the following is a statement I would like to make,too insignificant probably after the statement previously. I am pleasen to announce the continuation of the garden allotment programme which was started in 1975. Hear, hear! Vl', l'OUSSEAll: It is a pilot project in the St. John's, Corner Brook and Gander areas. The objectives of the programme were 1 one, to provide garden space for urban resi.dents who do not have access to agricultural land. MR. DOODY: Any by-elections coming up there?

HR. ROUSSEAU : Two, to provide urban residents with an opportunity for recreation and,three, to make people more aware of the problems and costs associated "1-Jith vegetable production and increased consumer understanding of the farmers. Some 425 garden plots of 1,000 square feet each were prepared and rented at a seasonal cost last year of ten dollars. The programme was successful with regards to the 425 plots last year in these three areas of 1,000 sqtmre feet each. The programme was successful with regard to participation, yield and the quality of produce and recreational benefits.

In view of this and the increase in the number of requests for garden plots,it has been decided to make more plots available at Corner Brook, Gander and St. John's this year,and to expand the programme to include Grand Falls, Windsor and r.oose Bay. SOt>'E RON. HElffiETlS: Hear, hear! !"1. ROTTSSEAU: As was the case last year technical assistance and advice ~Till be provided by the departmental staff. First consideration will he given to applications fro~ persons who had plots last year, but others who are interested may also apply.

All persons interested in this py-ogramme must apply in writing by }'ay 19, 1976 regardless of t·lhether or not they had a plot last year. 'l'he applicant will be notified after r~ay 19 whether or not they have been successful in 6369

April 10, 1976 Tape 2352 IB-·2 '1". J>OtlSSEAr: Tf'ceiving a pl.ot. Info~ation re~ard:fng procedures in making application in each of the rer::lons fo1lo•,• : St. John's urban area. If those persons \<>ho ha~ a plot at th~ nursery on Brookfield :P.oad last year apply and l'ltU 1 qualHy, then they will be given the opportunity to get the s;une plot they had last year. Unfortunately the area in the Goulds la~t year is not ava:l.lable for plots this year.

We rented it,apparently, and the plot :1 s not IIVI!.i.l.able again this yP.ar and that is unfortunate because so~ people put 11 Jot of effort :l.nto clel\ring their plots last year and '''e woulr! l:J.ke to be able to p,ive them the opportunity to have the sall'e plot. But '"hat we have clone ie: c>n area close to the nursery :In the New Town area has been prepared for un the year and we hope since this is our own land we will not have to change i~ every year, so that people who clear the plot this year will have ~. he opportunity to have it in the future.

It is unfortunate that those people in the Goulds area cannot h;~.ve the same plot they had last year,but it is one of those things. If those persons '·•ho hacl a plot in the Goulds last year apply - MR. LUNDRIGAN: ~ey do it for the first time on the cultivated lot. t'P.. ROtTSSEAU: Yes. If those persons who had applied in the Goulds lAst year apply and still qualify then they will be given first opportunity to r,et a plot in the new area.

All persons who did not have 11. plot )ast year will be considered on a first come, first served basis as written appl:lc~ttions are received at the department's regional office buildinp, T-851 Pleasantville until M~v 19. Applications can be obtainerl from that rer,ional agricultural office.

Corner Rrook area - those persons who had a plot last year and apply and still ~ualify, they will be given first opportunity to have a plot aga:ln tMs year and all person who did not have a plot last year will be considered on a first come, first served basis as written applications are received at the department's regional office in the 6370

Apr:U 31), 1976 Tape 2352 IB-3 rr . !'.OTIS SCAT'..:._ Shoprite lluilcHn~~: in Comer Brook. Applicat:f ,ons can be obtn:!.ned at the regiona l office in Corner Brook . In Gan~e r and the Grand Falls-Windsor area, if those person~ who ha<' a plot last year near Gander apply and still qualify, then they will be given first opportunity to get a plot this year.

All new applicants at Gander and all persons applying for a plot in rrand Falls~~:fndsor will be considered on a first co~, first served basis aa written applications are received at the department ' s offices in Grand Falla and Gander and the applications are available nt both those offices. In the C'.oose Ray-Happy \'aJ ley area, there l.'as no proP.ramme in this area last y~ar . So ~ll persons will be considered on a first come, fir~t s~rved basis as written applic a tions are received at the regional office in Goose Bay up until~ again, "ay 19 and the application forms are obtaina ble at the Goose Bay office.

No phone applications wHl he accepted . All app lications wHJ be evaluated as to the criteria laid ~own and if eljg:fble w1~1 be placed on the Jist. Every effort t.rill be ma~e to satisfy the demand fully . S()).'E flON. ~IEI"BF.P.S: Hear, hea r: 6371

April 30 1 1976 Tape 2353 PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Well, Mr. Speaker, in comment upon the minister's stat~ent let me first of all say that this has confirmed a widely held view which is circulating in the corridors of the House of Assembly and in the recesses of the Press Gallery; we have heard in the last few days, we have heard a considerable amount of talk about t~e minister being involved in plots, and about lunches, and about a great number of lunches, and,as I say,plots in which the minister's name has figured prominently. SOME liON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR.

ROBERTS: ~--- And I am very happy that he has confined this by his statement, because I think it is obvious that the minister is one of the great plotters of all ttme. To carry it on, Mr. Speaker, I think, and I know I speak for my colleague~,that the great plot plan just announced by the minister is really one of the better things which this government have done, They are less than perfect in our view in many fields of endeavour or many fields of non-endeavour. But I do feel that this programme is one of the better programmes, and I think it has heen carried out on the whole very, very well.

It is regrettable that we are not to be allowed to debate the minister's estimates, pr we might have the chance to lavish upon him and his officials the praise which is their due for this programme. There might be ~ m~ent or two of censure on one or two other things which the minister and his officials do or do not do, but certainly on this one the question will be one of praise. I 1111 particularly pleased that in the areas ~Jhere people had plots last year, it is the minister's p!ot this year that the last year's plotters will be given firat right to that plot this year.

And I think that is a very good idea because a man or a woman or a family invested a lot of time and effort and energy in tilling the ground, and as all of us who till soil from time to time know,it takes a long time to till the soil in a plot. I think that is good 6372

April 30, 1976 Tape 2353 PK - 2 Mr. Roberts: and right and proper, and I would hope that in years to come the people who get their first plot this year in the areas into which this programme is being extaaded will be given the opportunity to have that same plot next year. If the minister is to continue to earn his well deserved reputation of being involved in a great number of plots , and being a great plotter - I am glad to see the Premier is here because the Premier is very interested in these particular plots,! know-then I think he should adopt that principle which I suggest.

Let me just ask one question, Sir, since we are not going to be allowed to debate the minister's estimates, we can either ask it now or on Question Period as he peefers. But I noticed with particular interest the Goulds situation, and I would assume, although the minister did not say ao specifically, fhat that plot of land on which the Goulds plots were plotted last year was rented or leased for a one year baiis.

And that seems to have been a - I realize the minister was not the minister at that time, and that the minister who was the minister at that time was incomparably less competent than the present minister is - but it would have seemed to be a very foolish move indeed, Mr. Speaker, a very foolish move indeed because a lot of people put a lot of work into tilling their plot and working at it, and getting it in shape and maybe getting a crop last year or maybe getting readJ to get their crop this year, and of course that effort is now all gone.

And I wonder if the minister can tell us why the department or the government rented a piece of land for only a one year on - I realiae it was an experimental progra.me, and that may have been the reason, but nonetheless it is unfortunate because all the effort that was put into that plot or those plots by people last year is now gone, indeed if anything they will have secured to the benefit of the owner of the land who presumably now will either farm it himself or lease it to somebody else for farming purposes. 6373

.! April 30, 1976 Tape 2353 PK- 3 Mr. Roberts : But all in all, Sir, other than the faet the minister - it has cor\fi:n ed what a number of us have been hearing and the whispers areund the HoUBe that he is ~deed very much tak~ with I plots, and ve:ey much pa1:t of plots, we th1Dk •. Sir. it is a good progra~~~me an4 fo1: onee, Sir. I sm :Jn the unusual but quite happy position of quite g«muinely congratulaUng tlle 'll!inister on wh!lt 1 bell~e to b,e a slgn!Ucant step forward. MR .• llOWE: . Hear. hear! 63.74

April 30, 1976 Tape 2354 PK - 1 The hon. member for Twillingate. MR. J. R. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, if there is anything that can be said against this prograliDIIe- it co111111enced, I think, it was last year, was it1 by the government, and now to be continued this year- if there is anything to be said against it, it is only that, good as it is, and fine as it is, it does not go quite far enough. That is to say,it is limited to too few places embracing to~ small a proportion of the whole population of the Province. It could be extended. Now I know that that takes time. I fully realize that.

I know a little bit about land. I know a little bit about farming. I also know that there is great need in Newfoundland for this kind of thing. I remember the plots of the First World War, I do not remember them too vividly, but I remember. There must have been a couple of thousand plots - MR. W. CARTER: Vic tory gardens. MR.

SMALLWOOD: Victory gardena, quite so, In England as you go from city to city,if you do it by rail, by train,which is usually elevated a little above the surrounding countryside,you see vast numbers of garden plots worked by denizens of the towns,who go outside in the suburbs 1 in the surrounding area,and cultivate a little patch of land and grow some vegetables, and thereby give themselves some exercise in the open air,which does them no harm, and grow some fresh vegetables,which certainly does them no harm, and helps their purse. in Newfoundland.

This could well be done on a wider scale t~ould the minister give consideration to these couple of thoughts, namely, that if a person clears a plot on crown land, that that person might have the right to that same plot for,say,a period of five years, at the end of which his application for another five might be renewed and considered sympathetically by the government, not,however,for the purpose of subleasing, but only to hold the plot~ so long as he actually used it for the original purpose.

Then secondly 1 where no one has had a plot up to now,would the minister not consider the idea that has been in fairly wide application 6375

April 30, 1976 Tape 2354 PK - 2 HR. SHALLWOOJ): throughout the Province in the drawing of trap berths, they are dra1m, the annual drawing of trap berths, might there not be some system of drawing for those plots? Then instead of first come, first served, an actual drawing as in the case of trap berths. The whole idea is good and I am delighted with it,and I am delighted wi~h the minister • Indeed, it is the kind of thing precisely that I would expect from that minister. SOME !ION. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! PRESENTING PETITIONS: '·ffi. SPEAKER; The hon. member for tiount Scio. DR. R. ~HNSOR: Mr.

Speaker, I beg to present a petition on behalf of 622 residents of Airport Ueights.The area represented by this petition takes in both sides of Portugal Cove Road from the city limits at Hunt's Lane out to vlindsor Lake, including,of course, Penetanguishene and the Airport Road. Now the petition was signed by approximately 89 per cent, a lJttle over 700 residents of the area. So it is pretty well a unanimous petition by the residents. The prayer of the petition is as follows;''(

a) that we totally support our Area -Committee which ~~as elected at an open public meeting by us the residents of this area, namely, Raymond Fahey, Chairman, Cecil Ledwell, Vice-Chairman, nouglas Ftirneaux, Treasurer, Diane Driscoll, Secretary, Bill Lawlor, lfember and Larry Kelly and George Moore, Trustees; (

b) that we totally support the above committee's efforts to have our area incorporated as a community council under the Community Councils Act; (

c) that we desire an immediate freeze on all future development,with the exception of playground facilities,in our area until such time as ym~r dep;~rtmen.t can take some action regarding our application for incqrporation as a community council under the Community Councils .. Act. Now, Mr. Speaker, the area at present is under the control of the Metro Board and the residents have indicated quite strongly that they do not wish to bec0111e a part of the city of St. John's. I realize fully the position of the minister in deferring decisions 5376

April 30, 1976 Tape 2354 PK - 3 l'lr. \·linsor : on inuorporation until he receives the submission by the St. John's Urban Region Study chaired by Mr. Alex Henley. And I fully agree with his position, and I think this is the only reasonable decision he could make at this time. The request of the immediate freeze 6377

April 30,1976 Tape no. 2355 Page 1 - mw nr. Winsor. with the exception of the playground facilities and so forth, is a very reasonable one. And as one who is very familiar with the problems of that area - and they have very, very severe problems in development - this is why I wholeheartedly support this petition. I request that this petition be tabled and referred to the Department of Municipal Affairs and Rousing. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. ~m NEARY: Mr .

Speaker, it gives me a great deal of pleasure, Sir, to support the petition so ably presented by the hon. member on behalf of 622 out of the approximately 700 residents of the Airport Heights area. I think it is the first time that I have reard it called the Airport Heights, although I am fairly familiar w~th the area because I had to drive through it every time I went back and forth to Bell Island. I suppose I have driven through that area several thousand times. I want to congratulate the member, too, Mr. Speaker, because I understand this is the member's first petition that the member presented in this hon.

House, and I must say he did a pretty fair job of presenting the petition and mak~ng a strong case for the people who would like to see the prayer of the petition carried out. Now, Sir,

section (

b) of the petition deals with a request to have the area incorporated as a community council. My understanding now, Sir, is that the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing has turned thumbs now on community councils. The minister apparently has dug his heels in and is adamant, has taken the arbitrary decision that . there will be no more local improvement areas or community councils, that everything now, every area that is incorporated has to be a town council. And yet we are getting requests, Sir -· I know in my own district, in tre community of Burnt Island, 6378

April 30, 1976 Tape no. 2355 Page 2 - mw Mr. Neary. several hundred people down there have asked for a community council- and now we have this request, and there are others that I know of where the people are asking for a community council rather than a town council. So I am wondering, and I will be anxious to hear what the minister has to say about this, because I believe the minister should reconsider this policy that apparently he has adopted in the last couple of months about the preference of town councils over community councils when the people themselves are the ones who make the decision.

This particular area, Sir, straddles two districts. It is in my han. friend's district, the Minister of Tourism, and the hon. member who presented the petition, two districts. I believe the Portugal Cove Road is the dividing line of the two districts. So you have houses on either side. And I would assume, Mr. Speaker, that the people are getting very concerned about the area becoming polluted because of the number of houses that are being constructed in the area.

I have had occasion recently to discuss this matter with some of the people in the area, and they are very, very concerned about allowing the area to be developed uncontrolled. So I agree that their request to have a freeze placed on future development in the area until some form of incorporation is granted to the area ts a reasonable request. It is a goorl petition. I think we are all familiar with the area. It is just right on the outskirts here of the city. It is a nice area. We should not allow the same thing to happen to this area that happened up in Conception Bay South where it became highly polluted.

And it is a good petition, and I wholeheartedly support the prayer of the petition, Sir, and I hope that the minister will grant the prayer of the petition. 6379

April 30, 1976 Tape no. 2355 Page HR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for '1\rillingate. HR. SMALLWOOD: ~lr . Speaker, I support the prayer of the petition for the very good reason, I think it is a good reason, that I have been asked to do so by a gentleman who must surely be Newfoundland Is champion lobbyist in the present year . He has approached various members and very capably explained the situation in the area from which the petition comes. 6380 3 - 11\lol .•

April 30, 1976, Tape 2356, Page 1 -- apb MR. SMALLWOOD: I hope that the Minister of ~!unicipal Affairs and Housing will fall in line with it, and that his colleagues in Cabinet will do so as well. My understanding of the position taken by the Minister of Municipal Affairs .is not that of my bon. friend from LaPoile (Mr. Neary~ I had not understood the minister was taking a strong stand,or any stand, against the creation of community councils or of an even simplier form of municipal organization.

My understanding of his position is that he is opposed to demoting municipal orgainzations from town council to community council, or if there be a community council, demoting it to a still lower status. MR. PECKFORD: No, Burnt Islands;, for instance, has no council at the moment, They are trying to get incorporated. MR. SMALLWOOD: Well, I find it difficult to beli~ve that the minister, who is himself an outharbour man and who knows what life ia like in the outports, and who knows that there are many communities in Newfoundland absolutely too small, too small to have a council - MR. PECKFORD: MR. SMALLWOOD: MR.

PECKFORD : MR. SMALLWOOD: Good point! - there are too many of them. I prefer the phrase, too small. Yes, they are too small. There are not enough people, not enough to form the kind of organization that a town council would be, and incur the responsibilities that a town council must assume, or to meet the costs of a town council over and above the help, the financial help that such a council gets from the minister, from the government.

So, here if you have no municipal organization, pending maybe what is a larger and perhaps a better scheme, pending the coming of that why should not the people have a community council to put in at once with a minimum of delay, put in at once some kind of social control over,local social control, not merely the control of the urban - what is it called? The bigger thing around the city, what is it? MR.. PECKFORD: The Metropolitian Board. 6381

April 30, 1976, Tape 2356, Page 2 -- apb MR. SMALLWOOD: The Metropolitian Board. I should remember that. I think it was under my administration that it was set up in the first instance. They want to have the thing in their own hands. They have an intense local patriotism. They have an intense interest in their own immediate area, and surely they might well be expected to take a keener interest in it than the - what is it again? MR. NEARY: The Metropolitian Board. MR. SMALLWOOD: - Metropolitian Board would normally be expected to show. I heartily support the prayer of the petition.

And if it is the hon. member's first petition,that is not all that - but if it is his first sp~ech then I congratualte him on making his maiden speech in this House. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Tourism. MR. HICKEY: Mr, Speaker, I just want to add a few short comments in support of the petition. The petition which comes from the people of this area, as the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) pointed out, embraces two provincial districts. I represent a number of those people presently, and I had the honour or representing the people,who now find themselves in the district of Mount Scio,since 1966. Mr.

Speaker, I can also say that as far back as some seven years ago, there were a number of people in the area of Penetanguishene, Firdale Drive, Cedar Drive and those areas,who were indeed very keen, and very interested in getting some form of local government. I do not think that the desire on the part of a majority of the people might have been as great at that time, but certainly there were a number of people very active in pursuing this matter which they have brought before us today. I certainly want to add my support to the prayer of the petition presented by my colleague, the member for Mount Scio (Dr.

Winsor), and to assure the residents that he and I worked very closely in this matter, an~ indeed any other matters pertaining 6382

April 30, 1976, Tape 2356, Page 3 -- apb MR. HICKEY: to that area ,or the area right on to Po;:tugal Cove. I am sure that the comments made by my friend from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) with regards to the decision taken by the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing is not completely accurate. At least, it is not as I understand it, and I am sure that he will, in due time and maybe very soon, cle.ar the air on the issue. I certainly support the petition, Mr. Speaker. 6383

Apri.l 30, 1976. Tape 2357 RH- 1 MR. SPF.AKF.R: The hon. Hinister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. HR . JL PECKFORD: ~lr. Speaker, I feel obligated to just say a few words concerning the petition. First of all, as pointen out by the member for Hount: Scio(Mr. R. l,rinsor) who presented the petition, the position of the department relative to incorporations within the St. John's urban region is fairly clear to everybody. That is that we are awaiting the final report of the commission whlch deals specifically with the business of local government structure in this region.

If that report, if the way the report ~~as phaseit was different so that that local government structure part of it came in earlier,well then we lvould have heen in a position to make a decision concerning incorporations earlier than is presently the case. It would be rather wrong to go ahead, I sugp,est, without seeing what the commission has to say, especially in light of the fact that they have done a fair amount of leg work around the whole area and held public hearing" ann this kind of thing,and have had fair input from all the people in the region. So that is the reason.there.

There are other areas besides Airport Heights, St. Phillips and Portugal Cove and so on that are agitating for incorporation as well. Of course, it all>ays brings up the larger question .of the overall kind of local r,overnment that one wants to see in this whole region:should we conti.nU!! to have a multiplieity of separate councils, some of wllich might hr community, some of which miF;ht he town, some of lvhich mip,ht be local improveonent, as is the case with Hedgewood Park, or should we try to work towarcls a more uniforme<l system throughout?

In any case we shall address ourselves to tl)at larger question when the report is received. The main part of the petition,as I understand it, is that in the tntedm,unti] such time as r,overnment does make a decision on incorporations, will the government consider to put a freeze on further clevelopment in the area in question,excepting recreational areas ann facilities? That I shall look at most carefully when I receive the petition and reply as promptly as possible - that should be within twenty-one days -' 6384

April 30, 1<17n. ' ffi. PECKFORn : Tape 2357 PH - 2 to the people,or shorter than that if I can, explain to them \>hether or not I can accede to that kind of request,which does seem reasonable, at lea~t on the surface. To the larger question of incorporations and the department's policy relating to community councils and so on, let it be clear, Mr. Speaker, that,first of all,the lowest- I suppose it is difficult to do this- the lowest :6orm of local r,overnment, I suppose, although one hates to use the word lowest, <-lould be - HR. SHALL~J OOD: The simplest, the simplest. MR.

PECKFORD : The simplest, okay, ·- that is a better term. - is the community council. ~'!R. SMALL HOOD: Is there not now a still lower one? There used to be. HR. PECKFORD: No. ~'!R. NEARY: A local improvement area. MR. PECKP'ORD: No, no, no, no, no, no. Hold on now. Just take your time. Community council is the simplest, not only in how it is set up,but also after it is set up and hm~ it operates. I am taking the whole thing. I am not trying to separate. If you look at it all,the simplest is the community council.

Next to that would be your local improvement district Rnd rural district council and town council,which are all about the same. l'!R. SMIILLtJOOD: Now you are going up in structure. NR. PECKFORD: No, no. There are only about two levels. One is community council,and the second level,which becomes more complicated, has three in it, I am saying, local improvement district, town council and rural district council. It is difficult to separate them.

On the one hand you can get a board of trustees appointed,Hhereas a town council is elected,so the appointment system might be a little more simpler than the elected system. But in all its powers and so on under the act they are about equal. That is number one. Number two, the policy of the department concerning community councils is simply this, and the member for Twillingate(Mr. Smallwood) put his 6385

April Jfl, 1976. Tape 2357 RH - 3 J1R. PF.CKFC\RD : finger on it when he indicated the business of small and larr.e. Re thought they were too small. First of all, the depart~~nt's policy is no more locnl improvement districts. Secondly, community councils still are an integral ptrt of the local ~overnmen t system of the Province. Thirdly, in the cAse of nurnt Island,; particularly - MR. NEARY: ~m. PF.CKFORP: You are backing down. No, I am not backing down. In the case of flurnt Islands you have 11 large community, a very lar~te community, 6386 ..

April 30, 1976 Tave 2358 1B-1 ~'1'. PECKT'OT'n: ~:h:l.ch should be able to operate effectively now, in 1976, wHh a to•·m council. That is why the position is such.

Now in the case of o\irport He:lgl1ts 1 or smaller pJ.aces of 400 or 500 people 1 the conunun:ity council is the answer for those places at this point in time 1 <JUestion abottt it . .And there is still a place for more community councilf' tvhere you have a small community which wants to move tmvart'ls a more complicated local r,overnment structure than just a water committee or a waste ~isposal co~ittee. llut :l.n the particular case of Burnt Tslands 1 because of its population and so on,we have taken the position that a town council is most advisable in that particular community. •'Tl.

SIMlii1NS: 1o7hat is the population? ~. PECKFOPn: It is over l,OOO,I think . MR. SIMMONS: !'ow ~rould the minister reconcile South Brook, 700 population,and ft.irport Heights,the same population? l'r. .• PECKFI)IIJI: South l'lrook? "'P • SJl<ll''ONS: Green l',ay. }IJ'. PF.CJ<J>O South Brook i.s over 1,000 populati .on. ·~ . SPEJ\I<Ell: The bon. Leader of the Opposi.tion. ~'r.

Speaker, if the minister and my fr:lend and colleague have f:ln:lshet'l their conversation,I'laybe I coulc1 say a worCI or two in support of the petition Nhich the gentleman from !'otmt Sc:!.o U'r. 11, ~ 1 insor) presentet'l,and I do so for two reasons, Sir. Let it he 1'T'. RO'BEI'TS: recori!ed that 1'r. Fl'!hey, the chainnan of the committee, came to see me,and that is one reason Hhy I would support it,because Mr. Fahey is a very persua~:lve and eloquent gentleman and presented a rea~oned ;mel rational argmnent :f.n favour of it. There is a second reason t•tly we on th:ls side, Sir, support the petition.

That is because we think that the request i.s a justifiable one, a sound one and is merited. }'r. Speaker, as I understand the requef't,ancl as I understand the remarks whi.ch have been marle by the minister and by the gentlel'len who s1.t to my r:fght, the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary)a.nd successively 6387

IB-2 the ~mber for 'l'~rillingate (t'r. Smallwood), the real point of this petHi.on ~s t~mfolif. l'irst of all, it grows out of the fact that we l1ave been too 1 nnr, in rl'!tional izinp: the local p:overnment structure of the St. John's metropolitan arel'!,by l<rhich I c1o not mean just the :>re11 that fl'!lls ~,fthjn the ~'etropolitan Board's jurisdiction,but we have been too lon~ "hout 1.t. Jlnd these people in effect are sllying they ito not ~71'1nt tn Hait any Jonr;er, that they want some dec:f.sions in,;omuch as they affect their area,and that :f.s right]v and properly thP1r concern.

So I think :In support:ln.r the petition I would say that the minister - 1 kno•' he is r:lving it cons:liferation, I know there are ,;tnr1ies,1md T kno•r "'r. Henley and his colleagues are holdinr: hearings l!nc' suhmitt:lnr; reports ant'! •·.1hat h11ve yc'llt, And that 1.s a]] fine. i\nd ;r kno<J that these th:lnp:R cannot he r'one nvPrntp:ht. But the fact remains, S:lr, th11t ,,,e mUE;t have some <'!.ct:lon soon because c1ecis:lons are be-tnr tal· en :In the absence of a concerted pol :1 cy. There :1 s a policy. "ec:ls:lonR are beinr, taken.

Development cannot be stoppec' throughout the entire metropolitan nrea. He are finding that-J fear we may be l osinp: contrnl of events. l·!e may he los:lnp.: control of the developMent ;mel the •·rl'!y ''e wmt :It to p.:o as a peorle in this !'1etropo] :!tan area.

SeconcU y, Sir, - ;~nil J think th:ls :Is a W!rv ill'f'C>rtant f'01.nt •··hich underlies th:ls petit:l.on - the li32 men and •wmen who h11ve R:l~nerl thi.R pet:ft1on ancl thrm1~!· the lips of the~r tl'emrer,•,•ho spolce cffeC"t:lveJv and NPll anCI T thinlc ml'!ife the case, fiR I understanc1 it to he, 11s thP petitioners •·1:lsr :It to he, •nat they "re rel'lll" ~'"Yinp is they fear the fAetropolitan Board is not responrliT'f' ,(!eqtllltel ~·,or they f<>e1 the Metropolitan lloa.rr :f.s not responi!:lnp, a<'eqnnte1y to their feel inr,f' about how they ·~:1 Rh their part:lculRr coT'1!11un:l.ty to rleve] Of'. 'T'hey hllve saitl tl1nt s:l.nce we are not gett:lnp: any closer,on the r:urface nt 1 east, to the i!Pc:l.s:lon as to •·.rhat form of p:overnment the JTletropnl:l tan are-a is to t1'11<e,ani! :In any event He do not ••ant a distant form of rovernJTlent, ,,,e ••nnt soT"eth1nr. th;~t :Is close to us, we •·•ant somethinp: 6388

Tape 2358 Il\-3 that we c;m :Influence anti "'e csm cf"ntrol . ! think that fecl:lnr., ''r. <;peaker, is a :<onnd one and 1 think also it. is not confine d to the Airport llE>i~l·ts area. T think that the minister is ~oin~ to ha\'e to l'l3l<e this :> fun<'~MentPl prindp lP in c!eveloping the pol:icy which he vill present in hP.half not of his depnri:Pient hut of the government as a t~hole. qc ~n not havt> ~epartment:=~l polic:les, t.>t' ha\'e ?,Ovarntre nt policies "'h1ch are adminifitered for convenience's sake throug~ agencies known as deparl:ment!'.

Sut J think the important point, Sir, is that peorJe io the <it. John's aren, 1n the J!letropoUtM area, 1o.>here •~e have a variety ""d a I!!Ul.t:lp11 city of lo~al r,overn!'lents now1 runn:lnp from the local ~provement ~:lstr:lct of nop,an's Pond,Which collects no taxes nnd offers no services hut. has one of the Most effect i ve sets of ~on:lnr. cont rols Eas t c f " ontrcal , ri~tht through from that tC' rhe city nf ~t . . lohn 's, a hif.hly deve>lnperl l"lunidpnl ornanization.

The people are ht>1d11n:lng to feel that local rovernment is gettinp. very much :o••ny from them ip very unresponsive, often unheeding. t think 6389

Apr:f.l 30, 1976 T:tpe n.o. 2359 NM - 1 11R. ROBERTS: that the people in Airport Heights, that area, very much have that feeling. That is how I understand it through the lips of their spokesman in the House and from my conversations with the Chairman of the Committee. I thi~k that is a valid feeling, Sir, and I th:f.nk the minister should meet that feeling and should enable it to be dealt with . I do not know what form of municipal government it should take.

The committee have requested a community council, and I think for the time being that is a valid form because, given the range of options, it is probably the best one. But when we come to get the overall pattern of municipal government in the metropolitan area settled, ~r. Speaker, I think that we have got to develop a mechanism whereby people can have control over the things that are very close to them, and nothing, Sir, in that sense, is closer than development, the kind of building that goes down the road, or the kind of industrial development that is allowed in an area, or the kind of pattern of development.

The Chairman told me of an example. The houses were built on a boggy area. The bog was cleared away and lovely houses built, proper septic tanks systems, all approved by all of the authorities. But as a result people living across the street, who never before !lad flooding in thtir basements, are now getting flooding in their basements, obviously because the bog was taken away from the two houses from that area and that drainage now comes down across the road :tnd tnto these other houses.

These questions, Sir, are of utmost importance and the best way to resolve them is by government organization and mechanisms that are very, ver;y close to the people concerned. I think that the minister and che ministers, Sir, should take that principle and make it a very fundamental one in developing his policy. 6390

April 30, 1976 Tape No. 2359 NM- 2 MR. _ _!O!_E_~I:_S: Let me conclude, Sir, by saying that there are those in this House, most ~f them junior,freshmen members, who feel that the petition process is not a valid one and indeed have been so rash as to suggest that we should end it. I think that is wrong.

I think that this debate for one, and there have been a number of others in this House in this session, shows that the points raised by the petitions are valid, and the discussion on them is valuable,and I would think the member for Mount Scio should be complimented for raising the matter in behalf of his constituents and for raising the issues and I would think the members who have spoken on each side have raised points which are important to the public weal and which should be considered.

I think the petition is valid, Sir, and,for the reasons I have outlined,my colleagues and I would urge the minister to act upon it and to act quickly and to act positively. Thank you. AN HON. l1El-IBER: Hear! Hear! - ---- -- - - MR. ~PEAKE~~ Are there any further petitions? The bon. meaber for Lewisporte. ~· WHIT~ I have a petttion I would like to present on behalf of 200 or 300 people in the communities of Comfort Cove and Newstead. Mr. Speaker, this is a rather unique petition and when I explain it I am sure members will agree.

In the community of Comfort Cove there is a fish plant operated there by Notre Dame Bay Fisheries and they have a water system that was installed last year by the Department of Regional Economic Expansion at a cost of about $1 million, and the water flows down to the fish plant through the community of Newstead and through part of the community of Comfort Cove. So here we have a modern water system in those two communities but nobody is availing of this fresh water except the fish plant because nobody can hook up to it. Now last year,prior to the election,tenders were called for the 6391

April 30, 1976 Tape No. 2359 NM- 3 ~~-~lL~~ addition or the adding on to of this system so that it would provide water to the resident,, to the homes in the area. And the tenders were called and the lowest tender was annolli)ced and so on and the corotract was about to be signed except that the great'freeze was announced by the Premier and consequently the project was shelved.

So now the people there are wondering whether or not the government can find some means hy which the people in the area can connect up whether by themselves or with some government help to thts modern water system that is there running from what is called Steady Cove Pond down to the fish plant in Comfort Cove. I think it is a very good idea.

You have a situa~ion whereby you have people who cannot get fresh water, they have to bring water for miles on some occasions, particularlY in the Summertime, and here fifteen or twenty feet from their door is a six inch pipe line going along with all the water in the '~orld. So it is a bit ridiculous and I hope that the Minister of }!unicipal Affairs finds some means by which the people in Comfort Cove and Newstead can hook up to this federal water system that ts there at the present moment and I would like for this petition, Sir, to be tabled in the House and referred to the department to which it relates. 6392

April 30, 1976 MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROBERTS: Tape no. 2360 .QRAL QUESTIONS: The bon. Leader of the Opposition. Thank you, Page 1 - mw Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Premier from the House, although he was here a little earlier, perhaps I could ask the question to the House Leader in his capacity as - I do not know if he is deputy Premier, indeed,! do not think there is such an office as deputy Premier - but, Sir, as the general handyman of the administration,if that is the way to put it. Mr.

Speaker, my question is this: In view of the statements made by the Minister of Mines and Energy on the television on Tuesday night, on the !J._e_!~- _!nd_ Now: progrSIDIDe, and in view of the statements made on a news broadcast with CBC last night by an employee in the news report, which I think admit and show that there was a pronounced and a definite lack of ministerial supervison in the Department of Fisheries in 1974 and 1975, will the sovernment - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I must remind the bon. gentleman of the rule with respect to questions, and I would submit that his last statement was out of order.

MR. ROBERTS: your ruling. MR. SPEAKER~ In what way, Mr. Speaker1 I do not quarrel with In that it was a form of debate, a reflection, a statement of a quite serious difference of opinion with respect to how a department was administered,but was not in my opinion part of any necessary information for seeking the answer to the question. I think apart from the actual question 1 the words which end up with a question mark, any other words should be part of the necessary information. MR.

ROBERTS: Well, I thank Your Honour, and I was trying to give what I regarded as necessary information, and I will try to rephrase it. My question quite simply is, Sir, will the government now - the Premier has returned to his seat, he may wish to answer it - will the government a.w 6393

April 30,1976 Tape no. 2360 Page 2 - IIIW Mr. Roberts. reconsi4er their decision and grant a judicial enquiry into the administration of that department in 1974 and 1975? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPE.tUCER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, under no circumstances. the investigation going ahead in that department is a normal one based on a possible wrongdoing that will be investigated. As far as the administration of that department is concerned, Sir, for the past few years it has never been better in this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. m~ber for LaPoile. MR.

NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister without Portfolio, the Government Rouse Leader, if the minister has yet received a reply from the Summer Games Committee in connection with the pqrchase of the land over here on Westerland Road for the Aquarena? MR. SPEAKER: MR. WELLS: MR. NEARY: The hon. Minister without Portfolio. A reply was received. A supplementary question then, Mr. Speaker. Does the minister intend to give the House the information in the reply as was originally intended? MR. WELLS: Yes. Wait now,! think I have that here. The reply is here, Mr.

Speaker, a letter from the Chairman of the S~er Games Committee, and also attached to it is a copy of a press release which was given by the S~er Games during the early part of April and explatned the prices of the property involved and how they arrived at the figures. I could read the letter to the House, but I think it probably better to just table it, and then it is available. MR. ROBERTS : Will copies be available for all members? 6394

April 30, 1976 Tape no. 2360 Page 3 - mw MR. WELLS: I am wondering now. I thin~ wba_t I will do this time is table the original and a copy. I want to keep a copy for bur files in tqe department. MR. ROBERTS: Will the department make copies? MR. WELLS: MR.. ROBERTS; MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROBERTS: Oh, they will make copies I am s~e. Mr. Speaker - Is this a supplementary or is it a questi,on? Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. The minister has tabled the reply, as I understand it, from the ~hairman - of the Committee.

Is the mitrl.ster 1 s letter theret If 'l)at, would he table that as well because the reply - I assume, I hav-e not seen it, nor do I know what is in it - but the reply b a reply by defi'Oid.on, a-nd it would be helpful in reading it, I think the minister would agree, if we kad his letter of f111quiry as well. MR. WELLS: I have not got my letter here, but I will look for it in the files. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for LaPoile for a supplementary. JIR· NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, does the minister see anything in the reply that would indicate that there should be further action or further investigation into thi_e p•111:base of the lan.d? Mll., SPEAI;ER: T.he bon. Minister without Portfolio. 6395

Aoril 10 , l'Hfi Tape No. 2361 NM- 1 !:!_R_._ Y!'-!J•.s_: No, ~·fr. Speaker. If I might elaborate on this a little, I think l)erhaps I oup;ht to refer to part of this. 11 The l!esterland property was purchased from two o~mers, Robert ~~organ,who held optio~ agreements dating back to January, 1973, and his wife. The total purchase price t~as $787,922 cOJlll>rised of $667,922 for R.SS acres of land and $120,000 for buildings. The price for this land at $1.79 per square foot or $78,119 per acre is well within competitive market values.

Investigation by the association showed the current values of land in the relative area,as owned and administered by the St. John's Housin~ Corporation, run upwards from $90,000 per acre in valuation. In other words the price paid for Canada Games park ' land is nearly $12,000 per acre below minimum values of comparable property being sold or leased by the Housin~ eorporation. "It should he noted also that this site had important commercial value as it was to have been developed for a new apartment complex and plans for this project were well advanced at the time of the purchase.

Prime land for such developments at various locations in the St. John's area is valued in the price range of $2.00 per square foot, and the 1-lesterland property was the only property which fulfilled all the conditions required for the Canada CaJ"eS Park development!' A<;; I say it is all here anrl members will he ahle to read it, It is interesting , "'r. Speaker, and I think tJorthv of note that the price which appeared extremelv hir,h,anrl I tmuld say appeared extremelv to high to me - 'fR. HF.LLS: Yes in total, yes. But when apparently the information ~iven hy the Jlousinp, - MR.

NEARY: A wack of cash, '.~·-Y!'_:l:L5_: __ It is a waclr of casl,,I agree, h11t the infonnatton ~iven hy the Housing: Corporation a.nd other people or bodies having knowledge of land values in St. John's substantiate in mv view that the orice paid 6396

April 30, 1976 Tape No. 2361 NM- 2 MR. HELLS· was a proper one. ~m. NEARY: Is this information in the letter? '~· -WELLL Oh yes, this information is in the letter and will he available. So it would appear that the price was nerfectly nroper and in line with prices that have been paid in various parts of St. John's for prime land for commercial or other similar use. MR. ROBERTS: He is surely lucky to have that option. MR. WELLS: He was lucky to have the option and apparently he had the option long before the SUIIIIller Games thinr; came on the carpet at all. So there is nothing funny or hanky-panky about that.

So that tJotlld appear to be ·all completely straightforward, Mr. Speaker. With regard to the tender aspect, I think '~hile I am on mv feet and referrinR to this I think I should refer to that also and read the second part of the letter which I have tabled. "Public tenders were called for proposals to undertake the construction of the Aquarena and Track-Field · Soccer Complex at Canada Games Park and the committee advised government at that time. A copy of the proposal tender call advertisements which ran a number of times 1.n the ne,~snaoers is enclosed.

Of eight fims Nhich asked Eor the tender forms. three actually responded >71th propo!'als and qualification statements. The "Board of Directors of the Association chose Newfoundland Engineering and Construction Company T.imited to carry out thi.s 'mrk based on these statements and other factors. "The Association had previously negotiated, "and I think this is important for members who are interested in this, Mr.

Speaker "The Association had previously negotiated the contract with Recreation Development Associates for the construction of the pool," and I understand from the committee that this company, Recreation Development Associates,are the only people in Canana who can put in this kind of pool and they have done it before. So that there was ve"ry little choice that the committee had in negotiating with that 6397

April 30, 1976 · Tape No. 2361 NM- 3 ~IR._liELLS: company and with }fcKinnon Steel for the structural of steel prior to choosing Newfoundland Engineering to do the p.eneral contrac:t. Nov I think it is important to realize also, Mr. Speaker, that these contracts were all turned over to the general contractor, Newfoundland Engineering after Newfoundland Engineering was chosen.

Newfoundland Enp,ineering invited tende~s for the majoritY of all the sub contract work and in fact the prime contractor,which was Newfoundland Engineering 1is only carrying out approximately $1,556,000 worth of the work of approximately - and the total value of the contract is $4,453,000, so that NECO,as I say, is doing $1.5 million out of a total of almost $4.5·million. 11 There was a serious till)e factor involved in the Westerland project following the problems enco~tered by government in its origin~! plan to erect a complex on the korth campus of Memorial University.

In order to meet the necessary deadlines for the opening of the Aquarena, and having the field facilities ready,construction had to start as quickly as possible and a proposed tender call procedure was followed. As you know this practice is accepted for the construction industry and is used from time to time by governmeftts at alt levels. In case of other games facilities, there was no shorta~e of time for construction and project tender calls have and will be invited and publicized, So that basically, Mr.

Speaker, when NECO was given the contract for approximately $4.5 million, it itaelf is only doin~ approximately $1.5 million. work had already heen let. Most of the other MR. SMALLWOOD: Did they submit tenders with regard to the worl~? 6398

J'pril 30, 1976 Tape 2162 IB-1 I'T'. HT::T.LO,: I rlo not know but I presume they ou~ht to anyvay. llnywty tlds js the :lnfoT11'ation and jt is now before the House. ~rr. SP~AKJ\1'.: "'he hon. member for llurgeo-Bay c1 'Espoir. ~'1'.--"-~..'~ .~}:_;;_:_ ''r. "peAl·er, n <juest:lon for the l·':in:lster of "ine>l :>nd 'cnerpy.

T wonrler ~muJ r1 the minister indicate whether the goverm'1ent hCls m2dP. ;my c1ed sion on the rerl\lest or the recommen<'ation of the 'T;mpy ~.'<~lley Power Consumers Committee, a reco111!'1endation ancl request t h :lt hyc1ro anr. c1iesel electric rates be equalize<' up to the first 1,300 ''n. f;T'EI\KEl>: The hon. ~<:lnister of ~<ines and Enerr,v. ~:':__.0'..0t!!_T!::_:_ ''r. f.peaker, th<~.t has been riven careful comd c1erat:fon. r.e-fore announc1nr- ;my decision I think I will discuss it w:lth the cahi.net. MR. SMALLI-l'OOD: It needs changing still. ''T'.

Cll.OSlliE: '·1elJ, I mean, that ~·ill require a major cha.npe of rol:lcy. I ran reaff:ITM no~' what the position :Is. The position is the present poJicy, that there are hydro rates for 500 kilowatt hours a ,.,onth.So that before any ans~•er can be gj_ven to them I wiJl have to c1i sC"uss :1 t wHh the cabinet again. I have the facts and f:i.zures, and quite frankly it :is very unlikely there wiJ1 be any change. 0n the other hand the cahinet may wish to change it no matter what the financial conse<]uences 1 and therefore it Hill be put before the cabinet. But it h~~ not heen put before the cabinet yet.

In aclclHion to a lot of other points that have been brought up hy the r.ol1'111ittee there, th11t has been gone into in fletail hy the Ne-r.•Fonndl<>.ncl and J.<>.br~dor Hynro. I expect next week to be writing thel"1 hack ~ very net ailed re-ply i.n response to each of their points. And tl1at js about all I can say on it at the moment. So the policy sti}J rel"1ains the same. There has been no chanr.e in policy. If there is ;my change in po] icy it ~·d 11 certainly be announced in the Fouse • _' '1'. ~1' 'ONS: . ~. suppJ el"1entary. ><r.

Speaker, do I uncierstand from the minister that it is hjs intention to make a recommendation to cabinet concer.ning this request? 1 1'.. ':'IliTJ: : That is be changed. 6399

April 30, 1976 ''P. C:T10SBIE: ~ '11 • lffll.L s : Tape 2362 IB-2 l'r. Speaker, you know - It is out of orcler, l'r. Speaker. You cannot ask the advise of the minister. ""1". CROSB If.: - I would not say what as recommendation to the cabinet T IV'ould make. ~'l'. SPEAKEr: Orc1er, please! Actually the hon. governl'tent House Leatler did make a point of order at the titTle and th11.t was that the question would be out of orr1er and that ,,•ould be asking a minister what advice he ' ·~. S P!J>~NS : ~. SPE.AKEll: }'1'. SHo/ONS: 'lh, no, no, no. Is not that what the hon. member meant? II supplementary. }'r.

Speaker, I am sorry the quest:l .on gnt misinterpreted. I henrcl the minister say it had not yet gone to cabinet,and I was asking if I could interpret from that that it would go to cabinet w~thout wanting to pry as to what his recommendation wcmld be. 1-'n_. CP.OSBIF.: Actua] ly, ~' r. Speaker, we have nmJ gotten the facts and figures and that wilJ be put before the cabinet. What recommendation will he made? There may not be any recomrnendation.

It will be up to the cabinet to make a decision if they want to change this policy or not. !'P. _ SJ:J'l'·IONS :· A supplementary to the satn.e minister on the subject, ~·r. Speaker. T understand from the Power Consumers Committee that they had someone cost the proposal to equalize the rates for diesel and hydro at 1,300 and that the cost would amount to about an additional $500,000 per year to the treasury in subsidy, you know, applying the same formula for subsidy as exists now for the first 500. I think that costs about $11 m:!.llion.

Would the minister indicate whether he is in a position now to tell us whether that is a fairly accurate fiyures or if it wou]d be considerable in excess of that figure of $500,000? 1~. SPJ<;AKEP.: The han. 1-'inister of J'ines and Energy. ITT'. C::P.OSBIE: ~r. ~peaker, I wil l give all the facts and figures to the House when the government had made a decision on this matter. It 6400

t-prn 30, l97f• Tnpe 2362 Il\-3 ' "' rr.OSJ:lTF:: i~ much more col"pliclltec than that question sngref;ts . tio siMple question like that can be answered . ~o when a decision is mare i t •oil] be exp 1 "ine<l in rlet11H te> the House. :'P. ~!'EM<tr: n. nonc:rTr: The hon. LeafleT of t he Clppositio n. Thank you, l'i r . t"y quc.stion is for the t'ini r;ter of l':mpnwer 11n<l essentiaJ ly is tl'ki.nf! him up on the i.nvitati on he r,ave us ea rlier ruring the ~linisterial Statements portion of the proceedin~s.

Th<tt il', would the minister tel l us please whether the governmP.nt have ahnndoned the plans for the conference which they announcetl J believe in the 1973 'l'hrone Speech - but I may be wrong on t11at po;int - but certainly the plens which were snnotmcecl to have a great internatie>nal confe rence to look into the qu~ution of wildcat strik es. 6401

April 30, 1976 Tape 2363 PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations. MR. E, MAYNARD: Mr. Speaker, I am aware that there were aome announcements regarding a conference to consider wildcat strikes. I am not aware of any statements to the contrary since that time. So therefore as far as I know that there is some consideration being given to such a conference. We have had a Royal Commission on Work Stoppages,which is simplified if one reads it, but very complicated if one wants to implement their recommendations.

And wildcat strikes, work stoppages, illegal work stoppages,whatever one wants to call them, it is a problem that has been faced by all the Western nations, and all the Western nations of the world have tried to come to grips with it, none of them very successfully. We have not been able to come to grips with it either. In relation to the conference I would say that it is an idea that we will have to pursue whether it is held in Newfoundland or some other place.or whether it is held under the auspices of some other organization.

But in the meantime there has not been any evidence to the contrary made by anyone that I am aware of in the Newfoundland Government that such a conference was not being contemplated at this time. MR, ROBERTS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. A supplementary. Mr. Speaker, the minister I think evaded the point of my question. I am not allowed to repeat the qaestion so of course I will not. But let me ask a supplementary. The minister said,as I heard him, the matter is still *nder consideration, and it was announced two or th~ee years ago.

Your Honour might be able to remind us, if Your Honour were not in Your Honourable's honourable position, But can the minister tell ~s when there will be a decision. The matter was announced in a Throne Speech I believe three years ago. The minister tells us it sow has been under consideration. Can he tell us when he and his colleagues will come to some sort of 6402

April 30, 1976 Tape 2363 PK - 2 Mr. Roberts: a decision, and let us and the people know whether we are going to have this conference or not? MR. SPEAKER: MR. MAYNARD: The hon. Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations. Mr. Speaker, the whole aatter of illegal work stoppages or wildcat strikes is under continuous consideration and review by this department as well as all of the departments of jurisdictions across North America and the Western World. When we will be able to come to grips with the problem,or when it will be opportune to have an international conference,! do not know. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon.member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to put a question to the Minister of Industrial Development in connection with storing oil in the Bell Island_mines, and especially regarding a statement made by Major Gendreau that tankers may be sailing in the BJY this year, there will be 500 or 600 jobs this year and everything is going to be booming over there. Could the minister give us a factual report on this situation7 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Industrial and Rural Development. MR. J. LUNDRIGAN: Mr.

Speaker, just in, first of all, very much of a nutshell from my part, I am not contradicting any of the comments made in the press in terms of the reporting of the comments. In other words,there was no critiaism of the press. I am glad the member brought up the question because I want to say for~e record that I have had no conve•sations with Mayor Gendreau that would allow him to make the comments that were made in the press and quoted today. The statement that is contained in the press is very, very serious overstatement.

And perhaps I would rather for my colleague,the Father of the Wabanew concept,if he would elaborate on that, and perhaps place the record in a proper perspective. MR. NEARY: MR. DOODY: MR. NEARY: Yes,a supplementary to the hon. minister - Mr. Speaker - Okay go ahead the Minister of Finance. 6403

April 30. 1976 Tape 2363 PK- 3 MR. DOODY: Thank you. Sir. Mr. Speaker. I was this

article in the paper this morning and I was quite amazed. We have been very • very careful in our handling of this particular situa.tion because ~he people on Bell Island have been too used to too long for great expectations being raised and then being dashed to the ground. Now I have had conversations on an on-going basis with the Wabanex people. and they are proceeding with their studies~as I have made clear. They have had in a joint venture with a French company,the Geostock people,done some more rock sampling and some more testing on the Island. They have done nothing of any significance.

Just a week or so ago I was in consultation with the Wabanex people. the Power corp. section,the major shareholder in the joint venture,and they told me at that time that things were going along satisfactorily but it was still very much in the studying stage. and they were not suffi~iently far ahead to be able to say with any degree of certainty when or even if the thing will be completed. although they do have some reason for optimism.

They have been discussing it with the Federal Minister of Mines and Energy,who has promised his co-operation, and their discussions with the American Gove~ent. the United States Government,whom they hope to persuade to be one of the major users of the storage facility when it is ready. This story 6404

April 30, 1976 Tape no. 2364 Page 1 - mw Mr. Doody. that is here now greatly exaggerates the facts as they now exist, and I think that Mayor Jen Dreau, with the best of intentions, has probably been carried away with his enthusiasm and perhaps has exaggerated the situation over there. I am certainly glad of the opportunity to set the record straight in this, as I say, because I do not want to raise the expectations of the people on Bell Island.

As far as I kno~, much as I would like to be able to say so, the possibility of there being 500 jobs available on the island this Summer to work on the wharf and to work on the other facilities as are mentioned in this article, are very, very remote. I hope that it does happen, Sir. But I really would not want to mislead the House or mislead the people on Bell Island to that effect. I thank the han. member for asking about it. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Fogo. CAPT. WINSOR: Mr.

Speaker, would the minister inform the House what action he has taken to correct the inadequacies of that department as reported by the Auditor General's report? MR, SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Fisheries, MR. W. CARTER: Tbe officials of the department have been made aware of the report and the criticism contained in it concerning the department, and the neeeasary corrective measures will be taken to ensure that things are set straight.in that respect. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Mines and Energy, Sir. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon, gentleman had his question started before being recognized. I plan to recognize the bon. member for Burgee- Bay d'Espoir 1 who is endeavouring to be recognized. So I will recognize the bon. gentleman after. _!1R. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Tourism. I am wondering if he has got the answer to the question I put to him two or three days ago relating to the possible flying in of hunters in the Nain area? He undertook to get the answer for me on Tuesday, I believe. 6405

April 30, 1976 Tape no. 2364 Page 2 - mw MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Tourism. MR, HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, as I recall it that was the question regarding permission for people to fly in. The answer to that question, Mr. Speaker, is that there are no restrictions on that kind of situation. If a group of people wish to charter a small plane to fly in to a designated hunting area, they may do so as long as they do not violate any existin&­ regulations in terms of harassing or worrying wild life.

There are many precedents in that area, certainly in the Goose Bay area, the general area of Goose Bay, and to my knowledge there has not been any problem, of course, except that people did not be as successful as they wanted to be. But there is no objection to them doing lt. MR. SPUKEI:l.: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: A question for the Minister of Mines and Energy, Sir, in connection with the linerboard mill. Would the minister tell the House now what the situation is regarding the inventory at the linerboard mill? Has the warehouses been cleared out?

If so,has the linerbo~d been sold or has it been put in warehouses in the United States or in Europe? And if eo, would the minister state which countries the government is warehousing ita linerboard? Is the government concentrating on the European mar~t or on the American market to sell the linerboard? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, you know, I am not a computer, and there is no lead in to me from some computer out at Labrador Linerborad that keeps me informed from minute to minute or day to day what inventory they have of linerboard in the warehouse at Stephenville.

So I cannot say how much linerboard is in the warehousesE at Stephenville at the moment, although I would think it would be relatively low since there have been several shipments of linerboard out. The last one I remember hearing about I think was 6406

April 30. 1976 Tapt DO·. 2364 Page 3 .... mw Mr. Croa'bie. a,SOQ tons. There is po linerboard sold in the United States of America from this mill at Stepheuville. Any linerboard sold iii sold outside the United States of Amari~. and it is sold mostly in Europe. There ma1 be several thousand · tons of li'ili!T'Iloard warehoused in Europ.e for purposes of meeting the de!Dlllld'a of customers from time to time. Otherwia ·e the linerboard is sold direct to th' cuat0111.er. I think that answers the queatton. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. membet for LaPoile on a 11upplementary. 6407

April 30, 1976 Tape 2365 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: Would the minister tell the House if there is any difficulty with the quality of the linerboard that is stored in warehouses in Europe1 Is the linerboard mill finding it difficult to dispose of this linerboard? And how much is in the warehouses in Europe? In what countries are we warehousing linerboard? MR. SP~R: The han. Minister of Mines and Energy. HR. J. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, there is nothing wrong with the quality of any linerboard stored in Europe or stored anywhere else.

From time to time there may be a complaint from customers which has to be investigated as to quality 0 This is normal in every operation of this type. And from time to time there is some linerboard, a small amount of linerboard.shipped or produced which · may not meet the technical requirements and adjustments have to be made. So that is no particular problem with the Labrador Linerboard Limited. And there is no problem of quality with the linerboard stored in Europe, at least that is not to say there might not be a few tons or something like that - MR. NEARY: A few tons1 }ffi.

CROSBIE: Well,if the hon. gentleman, Mr. Speaker, you know, instead of being so mysterious if the han. gentleman - I am trying to get information, that is all,for the House and for the people. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, if the hon. gentleman has some information, or he thinks that there are thousands-and thousands of tons or something like that of linerboard - MR. NEARY: Do not be so touchy and so sensitive. MR. CROSBIE: - stored in Europe, if there is something wrong with its quality. MR. NEARY: You shagged up the Department of Fisheries. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! ~. CROSBIE: - then the member should say so.

MR. NEARY: :You would shag up t-'R. SPEAKER: Order, please! 6408

April 30, 1976 Tape 2365 PK - 2 MR. CROSBIE: I am saying, Mr. Speaker, that there is no problem of quality that I know of of any substance in Europe. But from time to time a customer ~Ay complaint about quality and the matter has to be checked into. MR. NEARY: Mr. Sreaker, a supplementary. ~m. SPF.AKRR: A supplementary. ~~NF.ARY: Mr. Speaker, would the minister be prepared to table 1.ome time in the very near future 1 before the House closes,a complete report on the activities of the Linerboard Mill including the management, the marketing, the problems, the difficulties they are experiencing?

Would the minister give the House soon, we have been looking for it now for a couple of years, a complete, detailed report on the operations of the linerboard mill at Stephenville? And when can we expect to get that report? MR. SPEAAER: The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. CROSBI!!j: Mr. Speaker, you know, full information on the linerboard mill I am quite prepared to give,or discuss either during the estimates or on some other occasion. There has never been any difficulty in that regard.

The only difficulty will be that as has happened in the past bon. gentlemen will go to sleep when all these details are given as they have done in the past. Any information the bon. gentleman wants on the linerboard mill I will be glad to provide within proper reason. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for TWillingate. MR. SMALL'I«)()D: Would the minister be willing to have some brighter speaker give the speech and then the House will not go asleep? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR . SMALLWOOD: There are some fine speakers. MR. CROSBIE: Is that right? MR . SPEAKER: The bon. Leader of the Opposition.

MIL ROBERTS: I must say the hon. Underling from St. John's West walked into that one, hopefully with both eyes open. Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Tourism, arising in a sense out of his statement earlier this day, and arising also out 6409

April 30, 1976 Tape 2365 PK - 3 Mr. Roberts: of the Auditor General's comments on licences. Earlier the minister was asked, Sir, if he would make public a list of the names of all those who have received complimentary licences. He took the matter under consideration,as I recall it. I believe the question was asked by my friend and my colleague, the gentleman from Conception Bay South (Mr. Nolan). MR. RICKEY: What is the question? MR. ROBERTS: My question is simply, is the minister now in a position to make this list public?

And in so saying or in so asking I would point out that is the best possible way I can think of to knock on the head for once and for all these nasty suspicions that some at least of these licences have gone to people other than those who won them in the draw. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Tourism. MR. T. HICKEY: Mr •. Speaker, I indicated earlier today in response to the member for Trinity-Bay de Verde (Mr. Rowe) that it seems that is the only way to do it, and I will. I maae two statements and apparently it did no good, you know.

Surely we are not going to have to table every document that is in every department - MR. ROBERTS: Only one,the Auditor Ganeral's - MR. T. RICKEY: It is really going to clutter up - SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. T, RICKEY'~ it. Oh, oh! I do not have it here, but I certainly will get MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. This will be the last queation. MR. ROBERTS: The trouble is nobody believes the minister. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. ROWE: ~fr.

Speaker, could the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing in his capacity as Chairman of the Committee to appoint the various Standing Committees indicate to the House, Sir, when he will be calling the first meeting of that particular committee, and when he will be ready - MR. ROBERTS: Next year? 6410

April 30, 1976 Tape 2365 PX - 4 MR. ROWE: - to submit the report to the Hou,se of Assembly? MR. SP!AqRc The hon. Minister of Municipal Affai1'S ·and Housing. MR. PECKIOIUl: · Mr. Speab;r. I hope that either this afternoon or Monday I .will be in a position to call that meeting tOgether 81'ld we can get on with getting the appointment of the ~ommittees done. 6411

April 30, 1976 Tape no. 2366 Page 1 - mw ORDERS OF THE DAY: On motion of the bon. Minister of Justice, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Registration Of Deeds Act," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. (Bill Bo. 40). On motion of the bon. Minister of Justice, a bill, "An Act Re11pecting Queen's Counsel And Precedence At The Bar," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. (Bill No. 41), On motion of the bon.

Minister of Finance, a bill, "An Act To Authorize The Province To Undertake, Organize And Manage Lottery Schemes," re&G a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. (Bill No. 42). On motion of the hon. Minister of Transportation and CODIIIunications, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Department Of Transportation And Co.aunications Act,"read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. (Bill No. 43). On motion of the hon. Minister of Tourism, a bill, "An Act To Adopt A Flag For The Pni:IVince Of Newfoundland,': read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. (Bill No. 39).

On motion of the hon. ~nister of Manpower and Industrial Relations, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Workmen's Compensation Act," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. (Bill No. 47) On motion of the bon. Minister of Justice, a bill, "An Act For The Avoidance Of Uncertainity Concerning Certain Judgments Issuing Out Of The Supreme Court Of Newfoundland," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. (Bill No. 66). On motion of the bon. Minister of -F-inance, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Liquor Corporation Act," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. (Bill No. 49).

On motion of the bon. Minister of Mines and Energy, a bill, "An Act Respecting The Acquisition Of Rights To Minerals In The Province," read a first time, oedered read a second time on tomorrow. (Bill No.SO) On motion of the hon. Minister of Mines and Energy, a bill, "An Act Respecting The Acquisition Of Rights To ~rry Materials Within The Province," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. (Bill No. 51). 6412

April ~o. 1976 'rap~ no. 2366 Page 2 - mw On motion of the hon. Miniater of Min~s and Energy, a liUl, "An Act To Aael7.!i The MiniDg And Mineral Rights Tu Aet," read a, first time, orcJerecl read a sec:oncl t:fJ!ae on tomorr.ow. (BU). No. S2). On 1110t1ou that th" House ruolve it:self into CoaPiit.t:ee of the WhQle .Qll Supply, ~. Speaker ~eft the Chair. 6413

April 30, 1976 ~'!' • CHAIRMAN : "!'. CH/Il~AN: Tape 2367 · Cot'r'ITTEE OF SUPPLY: Order, ple10se! Subhead 60 1-0 1 The bon. Leader of the Opposition. IB-1 V" 'P_OBERTS : "'r. \.hainnan, I do not wish to speak at this point. All I wish to do, Sir, is to move that the Committee do now proceed with ccipsideration of Head Y-:n~ which is the head for the Department of Fisheries, ~ir.

J'<y reasons for making this, Sir, are very straightforward an.d very obvious, that I think it is imperative that the Committee be allowed to debate the estimates of the nepart~ent of Fisheries, Sir • . ~N liON. 1"Et'BEP: Put the question. M~. JJ.OBE"PT~: Pnt the '!Uest1on. AN RON. ~MBEP: It is not debatable. l 'T' .• l!Ict~: I am waiting for n ruling as to whether or not it is debatable, r•r. rhainnan. ~'It. CllAIPHA.lil: 0rder, please! I am tak:lng the prerogat:l .ve of the Chairman of Committees to adjourn briefly to consider whether the motion is in order. ~'R • l'.OBf.PTS : ~ · r.

Cha:l.rman, I am not surprised by that and I think it :Is w:l.se,but ,.rould Your Honour •'ish to hear some arguntent one way or the other on :It from members. I am quite serious. As far as I know that motion has never been made before. lfP. ~f!TT'PJTY: Coll'e on! Come on! Have some respect. ~- l'Olffi: no not he so foolish! I will entertain argument but I would hold the :;~.rgument he very close to the point,and I would ask. the hon. members to be extremely hrief,because I am sure hon. members do not wish the business of the House to be held up in unnecessary argument.

So I 'dll hear arguments but very much to the po:f.nt and very br:lefly. The hon. T.eader of the Opposition. ~'T' ROBEl!TS: Thank you, J'r. Chairman. I shall try to heed your aclmonitions because I th:l.nk I very much agree w:f.th them. As far as I Ynow, S:lr, the motion has never been made before and as far as I know ~IE' have no precedents to govern us. The first point I '"muld make, Sir, 6414

April 30, 1976 Tape 2367 IB-2 l'P. l'OBf..,TS : :I.R that this r;loes not confli .ct 1~ith the Stancl:ln!! Orc1ers which say that of co~rse ft fs the government's prerogative to call the order ~f the bu11iness •d.th the exception of Wednesdays. I "!>7o~]d refer . Your Honour to Stancling Order 14, 6415

April 30, 1976 Tape 2368 :I'R. POBE'P.TS : Which is the relevant order, and it says that the government in effect calls the orders. Well the order that was called, Sir, was Order No. 2, Comnd.ttee of Supply. So the government's right to call the orders was preserved. Within that, Sir, the question is wh~ther or not the Committee are the master of what they consider and further whether they may interrupt their proceedings. And I would refer Your Honour to page 196 of Beauchesne, Citation 230,

part 2 of that and the second paragraph Which I shall read. It is as f.ollo,.'S: IB-1 "So enti.rely is the principle of adjourning debates in C01111111tte~ of the Hhole House ignored, that when resolutions have been proposed and progress reported before they were agreed to, resolutions upon other distinct matters have been proposed and agreed to at ensuing sittings of the committee, and the resolutions first proposed taken up again on a more distant day." I would then refer Your Honour to page 201, Citation 238,

section 2, the first paragraph of it, the first words of Which are, "Each grant is a separate 1110tion Which must be proposed and discussed as a distinct question.'' Those two taken together,! would submit, ?'r. Chairman, show that the COllllllittee are at liberty if they wish to 1nterrupt consideration of the estimates of Grad~ VI, I believe it is, the Education nepartment head, and proceed,if the Committee wishes,to another head, namely Head XIV, Fisheries,as I have so moved. So, f.n other wort!s, I thf.nk first of all, >.~r.

Chairman, we can interrupt the business if the Committee wish and proceed to another head. I think that citation in Beauchesne is directly jn point and makes it quite clear. Thet'l, Sf r, there is the simple question left, tmether the Committee are master of their own business. The Standing Order, Sir, does not bar us because the Standing Order,! submit,has been fully observed. the government have called the order and the order is Order 2, Committee of Supply. The question then is simply can the Committee determine in what rotation we are to take the items 6416

Apr:IJ 30, 1976 Tape 2368 IB-2 ''T'. "0BE11T~: fn rommittee of Supply. AN 1101'!. ''E''BE~: The ComMittee has no rjght. l'T' • . POBF.!>TS: The hon. gentlell'.an says the Commi.ttee has no right. T say the r.ommjttee have the right, Sir. Only a minister may propose expenditures. I am not proposing expenditures. I am merely proposinf, that instead of debating enucation we go on and debate fisheries. And I submit that that is ~rithin the prerogative of the rommittee.

If a majority of the Committee wish to interrupt the discussion of one hE!ad and f!:O on to another head, I submit, Sir, that i.s perfectly in order and that is why I made the motion. Hear, hear! !!_R..:_CHAI~ _ The hen. House Leader. ''Y arp;ument will be very simple and brief, }cr. Chairman. The govern~nt as set forth in our Standing Orders has the right to call business on this day. The business that is called is the r.~mmittee of Supply,which is estimates. It has been called under the heading of education,and I think that is an end to it right there, ~!r. Chairman.

I do not think this is n nebatable motion, tbe one made by my hon. friend across. I think that it must be - obviously Your Honour is going to take time to consider it,as Your Honour has announced,and fair enough. But then :r think this matter will come down to a vote and that is it. Either the government has the rjeht to call business on covernment days in this House or it has not. }"T'. CHAIT>Jl]\N: Order, please! I am sure hon. members realize that this is an important CJuestion and I understand a new question for the House. So h:winr: heard those arguments we will now adjourn briefly. 6417

April 30, 1976 Ta'Pe No. 2369 NM- 1 T"'R • CHAIID" .AN : Order, please! Order, please! The point raised is whether in Committee of Supply hon. members are in a position to put fonvard a motion as to which de'Partment shall be considered.

Hon. members are well aware of the rule, of course,that the motion to go into Committee of the Whole is a government order,and ~•hen the Committee is in Committee of the Hhole, which bill Co be considered in Connnittee of the 1fuole is similarly considered to be a government order,and the order in whic~ bills are to be considered in Committee of the '~1ole, that these are looked upon as government orders and these have never been questioned or otherwise altered,! understand.

Now the Committee of Supnly is similar to Committee of the lfhole, the same order to go into Committee of Supply is given fTom government side and the similar proceeding in the Committee of Sunply apolies as in committee of the Whole. That is that the government may call the order in which the departments will he considered. I might point out that under Standing Rule 44 (a), "The Standinr, Orders of the House shall be observed in the Committees of the Whole so far as niay be applicable, except the Standing Orders as to the seconding of motions and limiting the number of times of speaking." And 16 (

b) points out, "Whenever government business has precedence, government orders may be called in such se<]uence as the government may think fit.'' After consideration of these points the ruling of the Chair therefore is that the motion put forward by the hon. Leader of the Opposition is not in order. SQ~l_ON .~_?iB_;E~<;-2. Hear! Hear! MR. _RQI~~=- Mr. Chairman, I would like to make a few comments on the estimates of the Department of Education. First of all, Sir, I would like to express my disappointment over the fact that the question of whether or not the estimates of MemnriJO!l University of Newfoundland should be tabled or brought before the Committee or 6418

/\pril 30, 1976 Tape No. 2369 NM- 2 ~._R.Q!~ hefore the !louse develop ed into nothing more than n ~reat confron tation that appeared t o be anti or pro university. and I think the main issue was los t in that particular confrontation or nrp,ument be~Jeen the meMber for LaPoile (Mr. Neary), and the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Crosbie). It seemed t hat we were into a great debate as to whether we should have a university - well,an anti-pro university deb~t e­ and we lost sight altogether of the fact that the real issue at stake was whether or not the detailed estimates of the university should be tabled in this House or tabled or brought before the Committee of Supply . 6419

April 30, 1976 Tape no. 2370 Page 1 - mw Mr. Rowe. I for one, Sir - and I think all my colleagues are in agreement -hold that when the government of a province is financing the major part of the expenditure of the university - in other wowds it is the taxpayers' money that is being used to make the university function - I think the elected representatives of this Province, the people who are paying for this university,should have a right to have a close look at the expenditure of the university.

And I might even go further, Sir,and I may be accused of infringing upon academic freedom at this point - I would submit that if the people of this Province are paying for the university through the government~ tllat the government - and I do not mean just the administration, I mean the government, the administration and m~bers of the Opposition - should have some say as to the direction and relevancy of the university as it pertains to the future development of this PruYince. Now I do not mean that we should get into the area of interfering with academic freedom.

But if we are going to pay the major costs of the operation of this university, I feel very strongly that we should have an opportunity to examine the estimates of 4 province-owned university, a state university, or a ~rovincial university. MW.. NEARY: 'l'hat is a reversal. MR. ROWE: It is not a reversal, Mr. Chairman, and the hon. ml!!llber for LaPoile (nr. Neary) knows it. MR.NEARY: It is a reversal. MR. ROWE: · And the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) should realize that he is playing with words here, because in most inatances when the question of tabling the estimates of the university have come up that we got in the realm of a~ attack on the university or protection - MR. NEARY: The hon. member might have. I did not. 6420

April 30, 1976 Tape no. 2370 Page MR. ROWE: No, no, no, no: The hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) - I think it was quite clear to everybody last night that we had a kind of a polarization where it appeared, you know - MR. NEARY: I will react to that. MR. ROWE: If I could continue, Mr. Chairman, without interruption7 MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please: MR. ROWE: I agree whole-heartedly with the principle put forth by the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary). But in his usual style the appearance was in some cases that he was attacking the university. The appearance was just that, Sir. And then, of course, we have the hon.

Minister of Mines and Energy taking the other extreme and viciously attacking the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) in his stand • So we had a polarization.and lost sight of the main issue and that is the tabling for an examination of the university estimates. MR. NEARY: Now you are going to atraddle both sides of the fence. MR. ROWE: I am not. Mr.

Chairman, there is one thing, you know, I would like to be able to do and that is I do not mind if I provoke statements or questions from hon. members to my right or opposite, I would be quite willing to take it on the cheek and try to answer it.But I do not think it is within the rules of the House for an hon. member at the extreme right to not only interrupt me but to ir•'fact misrepresent vhat I am saying.

If he wishes to say I am straddling both sides of the fence or there has been a reversal of policy,he has an opportunity to do so in the course of debate, and I would ask him to reserve his utterances for the appropriate time. Now the hon. member knows what we stand for and that is simply what I have just stated, and I will not repeat it any more other than to suggest that public money put into 6421

April 30, ~976 Tape no. 2370 Page 3 - mw Mr. Rowe. an institution should be examined by the representatives of the public as long as it does not interfere with the academic free4om of the univeristy, and I think that hon. members should - MR. SMALLWOOD: Wou~d the hon •. gentleman yield a moment? Would he be kind enough to spell out a term that we hear quite frequently, a great term, ave~ honourable one, with tremendous meaning and depth and breadth to it,would he please -he is h~self a former academic - would he spell out what is meant by academic freeddm?

I think I know.! have read book after j)ook on it, but the House maybe hss not all read them. MR. ROWE: Basically, Mr. Chairman, there is no set definition for acad~c freedom. MR. SMALLWOOD; What does it mean? MR. ROWE: And I think the hon. member for Twilli~ate (Mr.Smallwood) realizes that. I think the phrase has been abused and misused, and in certain instances 6422

April 30, 1976 Tape 2371 PK- 1 Mr. Rowe: has been used as a cover up for certain things that have taken place in certain universities.

The lvay I see it ,it basi1:ally boils down to the simple fact that a professor in the course of his duties, in teaching a course at the university or a topic is free to say what he wishes to say on a particular topic that he is talking about, whether it is insecticides , or whether it is a course on Communism, or a co~rse in religion,he is free to say what he wishes to say without fear of being cracked by the law or cracked by a government or cracked from some outside external force. To me that is what it basically means. HR. SMALLWOOD: Yes. Would the hon. gentleman not carry that much further.

He refers only to the teacher in the university, the lecturer or the professor, the assistant professor who is teaching and lecturing. Would he not apply it to the university as a whole? What subjects should the university be able to have taught? What subjects should be adopted by the university? Are they to have absolute freedom in that? MR. DOODY: They put a different emphasis on it. MR. SMALLWOOD: In what different emphasis? MR. ROWE: I can very easily get drawn into the point, Sir, where I can say something that I would be sorry that I said it in answer to the hon. member's question.

But let me say this, I do not think it is the job of this Legislature to determine,number one, coarse content, nor to determine faculty courses or what should be taught in the university. MR. SMALLWOOD: Of course. MR. ROWE: That should be left to the so-called experts at the university. MR. SMALLWOOD: Of course. MR. ROWE: However,! will modify that statement just a little, and 6423

j\pril 30, 1976 Tape 2371 PK - 2 Mr. Rowe: the modification is this; that if the people of this Province are payin~ for the operation of that university I think that it is incumbept upon this Legislature - or the Committee, in this particular case, to try and ensure that the direction of the university is such that it will servt in the best interest of the people of Ne,~foundland. For example, J; cannot see a university in Newfoundland that is ~holly add solely devoted to the study of blood parasites in birds.

Now if that was the ma.1or purpose of the University in Newfoundland, 1 think this Legislation should have spmething to say about it. MR. SMALLWOOD: Of course. MR. ROWE: But I am not saying I am against a little department in the university co~ducting studies in that area. However,what I am saying is this,is that since public money is being spent I think it is our, not right, it is our duty and responsibi~ity to see to it that the University is as relevant to the needs of this Province as possible· and still maintain the true meaning of the university. MR.

SMALLWOOD: Now would the hon. gentleman yield once more, and this boils it down. If the university authority, the senate, tpe scholastic, the sch6larly authority of the university feels that - MR. ROWE: Senate or the Regents? The senate. MR. SMALLWOOD: The Senate, not the Regents. The Regents only - MR. ROWE: Right. MR. SMALLWOOD: handle the business - MR. ROWE: That is right. - side. The Senate handles the academic, the scholarly side. MR. ROWE: --.--- The scholars,right. HR.

SMALLWOOD: If the Senate decides that the university, our university in Newfoundland that this House pays for abould, and in Newfoundland's interest, adopt a certain course of study, and this House disagrees, who then should p~evail? 6424

April 30, 1976 Tape 2371 PK - 3 HR . ROWF.: That is a very, very difficult question to answer, "lr. Chairman, - MR. SNALLI•IOOD: Are '~e talking about academic freedom? - because then we are into the area of interferrin& with ac~demic freedom. t·'R. SMALL\.!OOD : Exactly. ~~ Now the question is, you say 'prev~il', or probably we can use another word,' control' or 'determine',who should then determine what is done at the university? I 6425

April 30, 1976 Tape 2372 IB-1 ''T'. rni.rr.: suhmi t that "e shoulc1 not necessariJ y ~eterm:lne or control ''hat is c1one at the university, but we should have, and it is our responsibility to have a say and make public.

If this whole Assembly, fifty-one me!T'bers, tvho represent every single living soul in this Province, are unanimops in their decision that S['lmething is being done at the nniversity or any other jnstitution in this Province that is not 1n the best interests of this Province, I think tve should be allowed to rer,:!.ster tl<<lt in this Assembly ['lr :In the ro!T'm:lttee and spea~: out on 1t because He nre - as far as the actual, you Y..nm,,, nuts and !1o lts nmning of the university is concerner\ obviously that has to be left to the experts. ''1', S''ALU!OI')!'I: nnly to speak on it or to legisJate on it,or to ~·1thhold funds to pay for :1 t? >'T', rmm: Hell this :1 s a matter of - This is big stuff. •·•r. 'P.nVF.: I "as only goinr, to spend a few seconds on this but ~'~ can spend hours on it obviously.

I th:l.nk the best way I can anst•'er that quest:lon, ~'r. r.ha:lrman, is simply to say this, that this would only be ~eterm:lned by the magnitude and the nature of the part:! cular instance.. For instance ,if this university c1eciclec1 to - let us take an extreme case: supposing the university decided tQ set up a school C'f political science or faculty of political science or .a c1ernrt:1'1ent of pol:lt:lcal science that tvas based wholly and solely upon the preach:ln~ of Communist doctrine,or a school of reli~:lon WAI'l set up to prt>ach onJy ~!ohammedanism or something J.:lke - ""T'.

SMAI.LHOrrn: nr ap:nosticism. "T'. P.mm: Right. You know,I am taking extreme examples. I thif'!k that thfs lerislature should have somethinp: to say about thnt and question :It - ~"T' SYALLHOOJ1: Not only say,but clo. - ann possibly legisJ.a .te - 6426

i\prH 30, 1976 Tape 2372 IB-2 ~m rm.m: - for only one reason, ~re are payin!' for it. Nm,• if this \vaB R pr:lvl'te university they could preach Rnything under the sun :f f they are using private tt~oney. AN lH"lN. " tl"BET' : l'nless they break the law. 'I'. ~. 01-IE: l'nless they hr.eak the law, yes-right. You knov, as it hnppePs tre f"'ornmnnist party :!s ]egal in Canada. c"n r.et into some pretty cUcey - l'o you know we >'!'. !'WAI.LW1nD: iR 1 egl'll. And in the howe 0f freeclOT!l, the l'nited Kingrlom, it ~"'. T>OHF.: ~xactly. So it is a dicey - ''T'.

NE/I~Y: l:s it not up to the parents to decide the kind of P-duc~t:fon they want for their children? I'll. HOWf.: (1 f course it is up to thel!l. It is up to everyboc'y \cho h11s an interest,and this :!s the problew with education, Pr. Chairman, and T think soMebody alluned to th:ls ear11 .er, that everybocly is an expert on education, the parents, the teachers, grandparents, schc>ol boards, church authorit:les, members of the House of Assembly, every­ bN'Y is concerne<' and everybody thinks they are an expert on education.

But the only point that I wanted to make - and I ~..auld love to ha"e I' dialogue or trilop;ue or a mult:llogue on this ~·Jho]e bnsiness of Rcar1el'lic freedom,hut that is not what I ~vant to get into - I ~1Rnt to simply go on record as saying that we firmly believe that 1vhen i. t comes to the expencl:l .ture of the peoples' money in an :Institution such as the university, we should have someth:lnr, to sny nbout :1 t, 1ve shot~ld be ahle to exam:l.ne it and we even got to the point, T think, in the <1:!alop;ue back and forth between Myself :mrl the hon. Member for T,dJlingate (~'r.

SmaJlwoocl) that there might even he a point renched in such discussion or debate where legislation mi gl1t be necessary. And I can imagine the scho] ars and the academics reaction to that kind of a statement. It ~10uld be vicious. If I nm nuotecl in the parer toil'orrow as suggesting that there are certain thinr.s go:ln~ on l'l.t the university that we should Jegisl11te in or out, it ,.,ouJ.d be n vic 1 nus react ion from the tmiversi ty. But I think I have made my point on thl'l.t one. Now, S:lr, T ~'auld like to zet back to a few other th:ings. This :1,; the business of school tax authorities. 6427

April 30, 1976 Tape 2373 PK - 1 MR. ROWE: --- Well at least we did not get a great moan about it. But, Sir, the Minister of Education did speak about School Tax Authorities and the necessity for retaining them. First of all,let me point out that we admire and thank the many people who have served on School Tax Authorities in an effort to raise money for their school boards. In practically every case they are dedicated, hard working citizens, working without pay to try to help finance their school boards. We have no arguments with the personnel or the make up of School Tax Authorities.

But we have said this over the years,and I think we have to repeat it,that we think the concept of School Tax Authorities is totally wrong in this Province. The minister says that wjth School Tax Autnorities you have local control. That is complete and utter foolishness, Mr. Chairman. There is no control whatsoever, there is a control, The only control is that they have to control to collect money.

But the School Tax Authorities have nothing whatsoever to do with curriculum, they have nothing whatsoever to ~o with the building of schools, As a matter of fact, it is not even the government determines where schools are built, what extensions are made or what apparatus a~d materials go into a particular school. This is done through the Denominational Educational Committees and through the school boards.

And the $9 million that the minister said that is now made available to the school boards that would not otherwise be made available through this Committee is completely incorrect,for this simple reason that $9 million that comes from the School Tax Authorit~es , the $9 million that are to be collected by the School Tax Authorities, that $9 million comes from the s~e source as any Provincial income tax or sales tax or liquor tax or any other kind of tax, it comes from the peoples pocket.

The only difference being that with School Tax Authorities -how many now, thirty-one? - "'!th thirty-one School Tax Authorities you have thirty-one separate administrations lvhich have an administrative cost, and you cannot deny that. The magnitude of the cost is irrelevant, but there is 6428

April 30, 1976 Tape 2373 PK - 2 MR . ROloiE: an administrative cost . Even the jacking up of the sales tax or the personal income tax or the liquor tax or any kind of a tax will not cost the amount of money that is being spent on the administration of the School 'tall: Authorities . HR. MURPHY: You could go on the unemploymen t role. MR. ROUSE: Would the hon. member allow an observation? You .could talce that down to 11111nicipal governments also. But one thing about boards having an input into it is that the School Tax ~uthorities determine their rates and the amounts of 111oney by llchool board budgets.

The school boards themselves determine their needs, and they present it, and the School Tax Authorities determine their levies at that particular time. And there is an input - Yes, there is an ii:J,put, Mr. Cha:l.t'1118!1, and it :l.s an unfair input, a very unfair tnput, a veri inequitable input, if the input the hon. Minister of Education is s.peaking about is the fact that school boards and School Tax Authorities .get together llnd determine what is necessary. They do just that. And you have 6429

April 30,1976 Tape no. 2374 Page 1 - mw Mr. ltowe. situations like this - at least my latest research in this is a year or so old, it might have changed a little bit - where we have our poll taxes ranging from $20 in one school tax jurisdiction,to $75 in another school tax jurisdiction. Now what is fair about that? What is fair about that? And then we have a minimum property tax of 2.8 mils and a maximum property tax of 5.5 mils. What is fair about that, Sir? Because there are certain places in this Province, to list a few, St.

John's, Gander, Corner Brook, etc. - I am leaving out a few - who can afford - the people in these communities - there may be a high level of emplo)'IU!11t, there may be a high - for instance, Corner Brook up to a few years ago was amongst the top ten in Canada of towns with respect to personal income, individual average personal-income, Amongst the top ten in Canada which meant that Corner Brook - by the way, where the first where school tax was imposed - could well afford at the request - MR. SMALLWOOD: Very much at their request. MR. ROWE: Very much.

And, Sir, what was requested and what was done in the past does not mean that it cannot be changed. I ~m being dragged off the point that I was trying to make. As a matter of fact I have forgotten it. Corner Brook can well afford to impoae a school tax. They can collect the revenue. And ~hen you go up coast to St. Barbe, high unemployment, low personal income , people being dragged into Magistrates Court because they are not paying thett assessments when the assessments are to be in. MR. MURPHY: lf you are unemployed you do not have to pay. MR. ROWE: Just one second.

I know they do not have to pay if •if they are unemployed. Ah! that is about the only reaction I can utter to the minister. 6430

April 30, 1976 Tape no. 2374 Page 2 - mw Mr. Rowe. The point that I am making, Mr. Chairman, is this - AN HON. MEMBER: You lost - MR. ROWE: MR. MURPHY: Oh, no, we certainly did not. The people in my district were never better off l with the school taxes. MR. ROWE: Exactly. And I was never better off under the school tax. I am paying less than I was paying before. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. ROWE: Now, Mr. Chairman, please, am I afforded some protection from the Yahooing. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! MR.

ROWE: What I am saying is this,is that different areas of the Province obviously have a different potential tax base. You have rich areas, and you have poor areas. And if you got the School Tax Authority set up, the fact that you are collecting $20 poll tax in some areas and $75 in some other areas, and you got a different make-up of the population with respect to hi