.... VOL. 1 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: NO. 13 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. TUESDAY, JUNE 1, 1982

June 1, 1982 ~'ape No. 740 NM - 1 The House m et at 3:00 P .M . Mr . Spe ak er in th e Chair. Mf {. SI' I·:/\KI .:R ( Hu SS !! ll) : Ord1!r, plcusc: -- - --- ----- --· - --- MR. CAL LAN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of privilege. The point of privilege relates to yesterday's Question Period when in my opinion the Premier breached the privileges of this House. Now, Mr. Speaker, this is the earliest possible time that I could bring up this matter since I received the transcript of Hansard just this morning. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I hope to lay nut n primn facie case against the Premier ,as it relates to what happened yesterday in the Question Period. Mr. Speaker, yesterday in the Question Period I asked the Minister of Health (Mr. House) a couple of questions, three actually,but then the Premier got into the act and he answered the third question for the Minister of Health and then I had the opportunity to ask the fourth and the Premier answered that one. Let me just briefly review as I quote from yesterday's Hansard. I asked the Premier, I said, "Mr.

Speaker, the Minister' 'of neal th"has just finished saying that this decision ;• the decision to close down the Markland Hospital;' has been ongoing for awhile." And I said, "The members of the Markland Cottage Hospital Improvement Committee informed me last Spring, on April 6th., as a matter of fact, four days before a by- election in that area, the Premier told the committee out there that his government is opposed to closing or downgrading cottage hospitals, including the Markland Hospital, and the Premier also gave a commitment at that time to that committee that his officials would research and introduce proposals regarding a new outpatient clinic in addition to maintaining the cottage hospital at Markland." So then I proceeded to ask the Minister of Health the question. '15 71 1

June 1, 1982 Tape No . 740 NM- 2 MR . CALLAN : The Premier said , "I will respond to that ." And the Premier answering said, "In the meeting that T heJ.d with the hospital people at cllat time, 1 ind ic.:t ted Lo th0m tho1 t lhcrc wou 1 d nc>l b<' IJoth J hospital and a cJ.inic at Markland," there would not be both, I indica ted that to the people last Spr inq . "But, " he says, "we were going to phase down the hospital and replace it over time with a new clinic . There was not to be both a separate building called a clinic and 1 5 71

June l, 1982 Tape No. 741 ah-1 MR.CALLAN: an onqoinq cott.-HT\' hospito1l ~· 7\nd so the Premier says, "So I think the hon. member"- referring to me- "has his f~cts sort of muddled.

The situation that we debated at length with the people from Markland and the area was that over a time the cottage hospital would be phased out, that it W.J~\ qUI!<• iiiii<•.J~\<lii.JIJ!<• I<>'' ':(«'<'! ll1o11 IJV<'I diiY lo·IP(lli of time you could continue to have a clinic operating in that old building and that a new clinic would have to be built to have the kin~ of medical facilities there that were still needed,but that the hospital would be phased clown and il new building for a clinic would be built!' And the Premier said, "That is what I told the people nt the hospital at Markland at the time and that is what they understood. /\nd l have had meetings with them since that time and discussions with them since that time and there WilS never any indication that there would be both',' a clinic and a hospital,''but that the hospital as it now existed would be phased down, that building may be unsuitable for a clinic ongoing for any length of time,and that a new building would that have to be built [or n clinic for the people of that area. 11 And then I asked the Premier one final question and I s~1id,"M1 a:;p<'dJ\1'1, ju~ :l ,,.,,.,,,.<[ l11 t·ll<• 111<·<·1 iiHJ tho~t was held with the Premier last April 6,1981 and now on March 30th of this year 11982, six days before the provincial election,the Premier attended a public meeting in Norman's Cove and following that public meeting the Premier met with the Improvement Comrni ttee again, the Hospital Improvement Committee, and the Premier told the committee at that time, the Premier stated emphatically that the out-patients clinic would be constructed during his term of office.

He further stated that the clinic would be constructed adjoining the Markland Hospital, adjoining, ·1 57;

June 1,1982 '!'ape No. 741 ah -2 MR. CALLAN: in addition to the Ho.rkland Hospital." Now then the Premier in response to that question from me answere d, "t- tr . Speaker, I can answer that .

I do not remember meeting formally" , he said, "I do not remember formally with the Committee . '!'here miqht have been a few members of the Co~ttee present at that rally , but the situation was simply that I indicated to the people there that it was the government's intention if we were elected that the cottage hospital would be phased down," he said, "There would be no longer a cottage there and a new building next to where -and that is where they want it, by the \\laY 1 that is where thC' people wanted it .

They wanted the new building to bu next Lo where the old bu ilding is now and that it would be a clinic ." And the Premier concluded by sayincJ 1 "N ow , T do not know how the hon . member interprets adjoining,but it was clear to everybody that the cottage •j 57.-1

June 1, 1'382 Tape 742 EC - 1 MR. CALLAN: hospital was to be downgraded or ph<:tsed out ilnd then' would be « new building built which would be the building for the clinic at Markland, to serve that area. That is clearly understood by every­ body out there and it is only the hon. member who is confused, Mr. Speaker, "the Premier concluded. Now then, Mr.

Speaker, in a telephone conversation with the chairman of that committee, the Markland Hospital Improvement Committee , in a telephone conversation this morning, the chairman, who has been on the air waves, by the way, the chairman of that committee, who I assume represents the committee and is speaking for the committee - and,by the way, of the six members on the committee, there were three at that rally in Norman's Cove, three who met with the Premier following the rally, so there were not a couple of members or a few or one or two, there were three, there was half. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the chairman of that committee tells me this morning that in a brief that was submitted to the Premier and the Department of Health officials last Spring, the words 'adjacent to' and 'adjoining' were both used, the words that I used yesterday. Mr. Speaker, let me quote now then, from this circular, this newsletter, which went to every householder in Bellevue and Norman's Cove and all of that area just before voting day. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! Order, please! The hon. the member for Bellevue (Mr.

Callan) - and I have been listening intently- l think is taking an unusually long time to reach his point of privilege. I would ask him to get on with stating what his point of privilege is. MR. CALLAN: Yes, Mr. Speaker. Let me refer to a newspaper

article this morning: " The provincial 1 57 Lf

June l, 1982 Tape 742 EC - 2 MR. CALLAN: government's plans to close down the Markland Cottage Hospital in Whitbourne are not popular with residents of the area. Wendy Murdoch of Green's Harbour said Monday that last week doctors at the sixteen bed hospital, Markland, were told by Cyril Galway, :hief Administrator of the Province's cottage hospitals,that uovernment is uoing to begin phasing out the Markland hospital. She said," this nurse, ·1 57 ~~

June 1, 1982 Tape No. 743 MJ - 1 MR. W. CALLAN: " she said residents were surprised when they heard that, because in March during an address in Norman's Cove,"that I just referred to, "Premier Brian Peck ford said they would not close the hospital down but would add a new outpatient clinic to it. There would be two facilities. SOME HON. MEMBERS Hear, hear! .. - , . - -- MR. CALLAN: The hospital would stay and a new clinic would be built: Mr.

Speaker, in conclusion then what I am saying is this, that here yesterday during the Question Period, and I have it substantiated now in conversation 11i I II lfo• o'lio~ i 1111 •111 ,,f ll1otl •'•llllllli I I", ·111<1 ~~i llo orlllo'l (" ·•(d" Llti!JUtJii !lor' <liiWit'y'R ·111<1 elscwiH~Ic',' ltilVC _it_ t'!JitiLlllleu that Lite Premier yesterday deliberately misled this House and, Mr. Speaker, he lied to this !louse. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: Riqht on! Right on! MR. CALLAN: So I conclude my case. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! Order, please! Onlt•r, please!

Certainly there is a strong rule of procedure in this House , and in anv other House, thnt "n hnn. member cannot accuse another of deliberately misleading or lying to the House and I would certainly ask the member for Bellevue (Mr. W. Callan) to withdraw that statement. SOME HON. MEMBER: Withdraw. MR. CALLAN: Well, Mr. Speaker, given a choice between believing the Chairman of the committee and the others that I have talked to,and believing what the Premier said yesterday, Mr. Speaker, I stick by my statement. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. G. WARREN : Hear, hear! '15 7 6

June 1, 1982 Tape No. 743 MJ - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! I realize the situation that the han. member for Bellevue (Mr. W. Callan) is in,and maybe he did make his corrunents in the heat of debate, and I woulri like for him to consider withdrawing his accusation against the Premier and making those unparliamentary comments. MR. W. CALLAN: Mr.

Speaker, I mean no discredit to the Chair whatsoever and ,as I just finished saying, that it is in the heat of the moment and the catcalls fron the other ~;id(•,but .ts I jw:l finish<~d ~:.ryinq /hill qiv<·n" dwi<:<· hvlW<'<'n believing the Chairman of that committee and the other members on that committee and believinCJ what the Premier suid here yesterday, 1 cannot change my mind, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. member for Bellevue has been given an opportunity to withdraw his unparliamentary comments and it is the Chair's opinion that he has refused to do so and unfortuLately the Chair has no other choice but to namr tho hon. mcmhrr for Tlcllevuc ilnd T rlo sn namco Mr. Wilson Callan. MIL W. Ml\HSI//\1.!.: Mr·. SpedktJr. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of the Council . MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I move the hon. the member for Bellevue be suspended for the remainder of this sittin•l,this dav. MR. HODOER A point of order, Mr. Soeaker. As I understand it from Beauchesne,

Section 25, paqe 13. the fifth edition, that when a member is named by the Speaker he has the right to make a statement. The SpeLlker can then ·1 j I I

June l, 1982 'l'apc 744 PK - 1 MR . HODDER : name him. But then he has a right to make a statement to the House and then withdraw \vhilc the flousc makes its judgement . But to my understanding the member has not made a statement . MR . MARSHALL : To tl~e point of order, l"r . Speaker . ~ffi . SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon . President of the Council . MR .

M/\RSHALL : If you read the words,it says, "Whe n a member is named he has a right to make a statement to the House"- he has the right to make a statement-"and should then witlldoo~l" while~ lla·· ""'' "'! is lllnkinq il :i i•ulqeoUC:Ill" 'l'ho: hnn. 1111 •1111 ••··I w I I In II t'W .1 11d I 11 L'U IIIIf.:t ' - MR . NEARY : No , Mr . Speaker . MR . f.tARSilALL : - ~or the consideration of the House that the member be suspended for the sittin g day . SOME RON . MEMBERS : Oh , oh ! MR. SPT-:1\KER : - - - -· --~- Order , please ! The bon . member for Bellevue (t-tr . Callan) has withdrawn from the House . MR.

NEARY : Mr . Speaker. MR . SPEAKER : The hon . Leader of th e Oppositio n. M.R .NEARY : Mr . Speaker , doe s that mean no w th at th<' hon. member is not entitled to make il statement? Your Honour directed - SOME HON . MEMBERS : MR . NEARY : Now if the procedure - MH. IV\JWlll\1,1, : MR . SPEAKER : He left ~is chair . - the member to w it hdraw 1 which he did . Nn h(' rli d not , h0 named him. Order , please ! 1S i8

June 1, 1982 Tape 744 PK -2 MR. NEARY: ,,cmed him i"'"ld t!,en ?$kP.d '!i"' to withdraw. And t~e hon. Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) told him to withdraw. I heard the hon. mjnistcr. SOME !:ION. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! MR. NEARY: And Your Honour directed him to withdraw, that is the imPortant ~ing. So r helieve the hon. member is enti~led to make a statement, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The Chair named the hon. member for Bellevue (Mr. Cullan) but djd not ask him to ~lithdra.,!.

The hon. member rose from his chuir and withdrew. 1\nd the ruling is that he has lost his opportunity to make a statement. SOME liON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: The motion is t·hat the hon. member for Bellevue be barred from tbis House for the remaining of this sittiny day. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Today. MR. SPEAl<ER: Today. Just today. MR. ~-mARY_; Is this « dchatable motion? Can we discuss thdt? MR. SPEAKER: No. MR. NEARY: No. Not debatable. MR. SPEAKER: 'l'h0se in favour "ll.ye", those against "Nay". MR. NEARY: You talk about a dictatorship. Usinq brut.c force SOME HON. MEMBERS: "Aye". MR.

SPEAKER: The "Ayes" have it. SOME liON • MEMBF:RS : Oh, oh! ........ ·--·---___ .... ~. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. "15 i 8

'. June 1, 1982 ~l. SPEAKER (Russell): MR. MARSHALL: Tape 744 PK - 3 The hon. President of the Council . If I may,I believe we are still on the point of privilege made by the hon. member and I do want to address the regrettable point of privilege that the hon. member brought up and I hope I can address it from the point of vievl of BeauchesnP. and the ~'"+- ·""'"; +-iP!': rh;>~t ;p·e hP.f'l')re us .

I refer Your llonour to page 11, th e of.t··Quoted passage number seventeen in Beauchesne: "7\ question of privilege ought rarely to come up in Parliament · It should be dealt with by a motion giving the House power to impose a reparation or arply a remedy . A qcnuine Question of orivilP.ne i~ ~ m.ost serious matter and it should be taken seriously by the House ." And then further on page 12 , "A dispute between two members as to allegation of fact does not fulfill the condition of Parliamentary priv ilnqc ". This is wh at the hon . gentleman was,first of all , makirq the basis o:: his privileqe , ., san "

June l, 1982 Tape No. 745 SD - l MR. MARSHALL: a matter of his

interpretation of the facts. Also further on in suhsection 3 of

Section 19 "Statements made outside the llouse by a member may not be used as a base for a question of privilege." Neither, Mr. Speaker, should the statements made by individuals outside the House commenting upon statements made by members in this House 1otherwise we are going to get into r.1tl1c. a Pandora's box. It is rather regrettable that the hon. gentleman decided to raise a point of privilege like this because in effect he is offending the privileges of this !louse by bringing up a matter of this nature that should be reserved for the most serious of situations. SOME HON. MEMBERS: M...."R.. ROBERTS : MR.

SPEAKER (Russell) : of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Hear, hear. Mr. Speaker. The hon. member for the Strait Mr. Speaker, I will be very brief, I WdiiL Lo :;cty ju:;l lltr•·v Lllill•l!;. l·'i1:;l 111 .111, Ill<' linn. lh<• House Leader (Mr. Marshall), of course, broke th0 ~rivilege of the House just now in castin0 aspersions upon the motives of the temporarily absent gentleman from Bellevue (Mr. Callan). Secondly, it is, of course, ~ matter of the utmost importance when the House is told that the veracity of the Premier is in question.

Thirdly, if Your Honour finds there is a prima facie case,which is a condition precedent to a motion being made, I, for one, am prepared to move the appropriate motion which is to the effect that the matter be referred either to the Committee on Privileges and Elections, which has not been struck ,or to a Select ( '11111111 i I I I., •• IIIII, Y•llll~ ll'llll>lll, ]u•f•ll.l' .lnyi>~Hiy <'olll IIIOVf' I 11<1~ Your Honour has to find there is a prima facie case.

As I understood it., my temporarily absent rr·icnd from [le}I('VlW was making his case in support of the case that there was a prima facie case when he used some words that ureached the parliamentary canon, he refused to withdraw them in response ·1 58 I

June 1, 1982 Tape 746 EC - 2 MR • MARSHALL : lie did not make a statement so lw djd noL c·x~!r~~is(• his ri(1ht . PREMIER PECKFORD : He lost his opportunity MIL SI'EAI<J-:R (Russell) : OrC.:c~, please ! 'l'he Chair is satisfied that it did not ask the hon . member to withdraw . SOME HON . MEMBERS : Oh, oh ! MR . SPEAI<ER : Order , please ! Order , please ! The Chair is satisfied that it did not ask the hon . member to withdraw . ORJ\L QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER : The hon . the member for 'l'crru Nova . MR. LUStl : Mr .

Speaker , the topic I want to r<tiS<' , r do 1)\)t do i.L with prit.le or any J>.ti"Li<:ulor delight , and that is to raise the issue of the tragic sinking of the Ocean Ranger , But hon . members will recall the circumstances at the time did not give members on this side any opportunity to ask some questions because of the electi,on . nut it is not the tragedy that we want to uirect ourselves to immediately , we want to .ask some 'ISb!

June 1, 1982 Tape 746 EC ~ l MR. SPEAKER (RUSSELL): han. members raising points of privilege ~hich may or may not indeed be points of privilege, and in view of the seriousness of the allegation made by the han. the member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan), I shall take the matter under advisement and hopefully make a decision on it tomorrow. MR. HODDER: MR. SPEAKER: Port au Port. MR. HODDER: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The hon. the member for I would like to quote

Section 25, Beauchesne, Subsection 2: "When a Member is named (by the Speaker stating: 'Mr. X, it is my duty to name you for disregarding the authority of the Chair' or some such similar formula) , he has the right to make a statement to the llouse and should then withdraw." Now, my understanding is that the member was usked to withdraw. SOME HON. MEMBERS: No, No. MR. HODDER: But he had the right to make a statement and then withdraw while the House makes its judgement. Now, I submit, Mr. Speaker, that the member for Bellevue has the right to make a statemcn t. Because, Mr.

Speaker, Subsection 3 says that if the member satisfies the House by an apology, no further action is necessary. So I think, Mr. Speaker, that the member 's pr i vi ler)c has been breached in that he did not have the chance to make another statement. MR. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER: MR. Ml\RS!ll\LL: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker . 'rhe han. the President of the Council. The hon. gentlemun is just pressing this to its outer limits. You know, lhc' quat.:~ tion there, he has the right to make a statement to the House and should then withdraw while the llouse maked a judgement.

Now, he was not asked to withdraw by the Chair, Mr. Speaker. Your Honour did not ask him to withdraw, he withdrew. 150:1

June 1, 1982 Tape No. 745 so - 2 MR . ROBERTS: to Your Honour's request that be do so ,and so Your llonout" did all that you could do ,wh ich is name him ,and so be it . nut if it ,.,.i 11 he 1 p my learned friend from St . John's East (Mr . ~,rshall) in the least I am quit e prepared to move that motion , Sir , seconded by my friend the Leader of the Opposition (Mr . Neary),that the matter be ~cferred and then we will see , Sir, whether the Premier, in fact , hils told the truth in this !lou se or whethe r he has not .

Now, Sir , that depends on a ruling from the Chair that there is a prima facie case , ancl so if there is I am prepared to move the motion , Sir . SOM E HON . MEMBERS: MR . MARSI!J\LL : MR. SPEAKER (Russ ell) : MR . MJ\RSII/\L[, : Hear , hea r. Mr . Speaker . The hon. President of the Council. IL is for Your llonour to decide wh ether there is a prima facie case or not . I wil l just leave it to the !louse from the point of view that a point of privilege did not arise in this particular case .

It is rather a serious matter to bring up and I say to the Opposition, if they want to qet on with the antics they have already been decimated by 50 per cent ,if they keep on going they wjJl be rubbed out completely the next time . SOME 112_~ . MEMBERS : llear, hear. MR. SPEAKER : SOME HON . MEMBERS: MR . SPEAKER : SOME liON. MEI'-IBERS: MR. SPEAKER : dim view Clf Order , please ! Oh , oh . Order , please ! Oh , oh . Order, pl.ease ! The Chair certainly ta kes a .,5 d lJ

June 1, 1982 Tape No. 747 NM - 1 MR. LUSH: questions re the setting up of the commissior: of enquiry. On that, f!r. Speaker, I want to direct a ~uestion to the Premier and the question is, Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Premier can inform hon. members just what input the Province had, or what input indeed it has with respect to the appointment of members to the commission and hiring of staff, or additional staff, to that particular commission? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) PREMIER PECKFORD: The hon. Premier. Mr.

Speaker, I find the hon . member's question rather odd in the sense that I thi~k it is a matter of public record for several weeks now, if not a number of months, I think all the information was provided to the public,and thereby to the hon. member for Terra Nova, on how the royal commission got established. The two levels of government agreed upon three people from each government, three from the federal government and three from the Province, and the royal commission was established,and like all royal commissions they hire their own staff.

They have that power under their appointment, to hire their own staff and I would assume that they about doing that, hiring their own staff and so on, as all royal commissions do. But it is public knowledge that the royal commission was established after consultation and negotiation between the two levels of government, provincial and federal, in which there are three persons representing each government as part of the commission 1and then the commission is empowered to go ahead and carry out its work under the terms of reference that were given to the commission and has the power to hire staff. MR. LUSH: Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I wonder again if the Premier can indicate to the House whether there is anybody on that 158~

June 1, 1982 Tape No. 747 NM - 2 MR. LUSH: commission with experience, with knowledge, related to the complexity of oil rigs operating in the stormy and unpredictable weathers 1 5 iJfl

June 1,1982 Tape No. 748 ah-1 MR.LUSH: of the North Atlantic? Mr. Speaker, that is not to undermine any of the members. It is just a matter of information to ask the Premier whether there is anybody on this committee with that kind of expertise, this special expertise of working with oil rigs and knowing the conditions of the North Atlantic, the stormy and unpredicable conditions of the North Atlantic? MR.SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. the Premier. PREIHER PECKFORD: As I say, Mr.

Speaker, I continue to be somewhat amazed at the lack of information that the hon. member has at this late time after the commission has been established. The biographies and the work experience o:: the six members of the~ commission have been a matter of public record. I can only assume that hon. gentlemen like the member for Terra Nova (rJ\r.

Lush),who before he became a member of the Jlouse was an educator in this Province,and now since he became a member of this House is a parliamentarian,and he reads the ncwspupers and the informution on important matters to the Province and to the country and that therefore he must be aware of the knowledge and experience that various individual commissioners have on this Royal Commission.

Suffice it for me to say in trying to enlighten the hon. member to some information that obviously he has forgotten that I have not , that there is one gentleman,and others of course on the commission, but there is one gentleman a man by the name of Mr. First, Tom First,who is extremely well qualified in this whole business of the conditions of the North Atlantic and of technological problems towards exploration and development of nydrocarbons. He had been head of NORDCO where a lot of work was done in this sphere. Additionally , of course, as with all ·1 5 d 7

June 1,1982 Tape No . 748 ah-2 PREMIER PECKFOR~ : Royal Commissions ,what you need is competent, open-mind~d people of integrity who when they do not hav< · themselves ~ti.th) n then. the expertise thnL is nccessary,sccks, rinds and hires and gets the expertise necessary to make the kind of judgements that they will have to ma ke. SOm: liON . MEMBERS : MR. LUSH: MR .SPEARER (Russell) : member for 'l'err« Nov« . MR. LUSH : llear , hear! Mr . Speaker . A supplementary . The hon . Of course , because an hon . member asks a question it is not because he is not awilr C' ·1 sa a

June l, 1982 Tape No. 749 MJ - l MR. T. LUSH: of what the circumstances are and what the information is that he is soliciting, Mr. Speaker. It is a matter of ensuring that matters are the way that they should be in the public interest of the people of this Province,and indeed of Cananda. Mr. Speaker, I understund that the (Jentleman to whom the Premier refers is - T have read the y-ualifications, remember them well; I an not sure that I know what they are- for example, indicates that the hon. gentleman is a marine engineer and is a naval architect. Now, I do not know what that does, Mr.

Speaker, you know, with respect to familiarizin<_! the gentleman with oil rigs and working in the conditions of the North Atlantic,which are quite unique. The question then, Mr. Speaker, is was there not any consideration qiven to appointing a master mariner, a mariner who knows the North Atlantic and knows the conditions of working on oil rigs,and particularly oil rigs in the North Atlantic, intimately? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PEC::KFORD: Mr. Speaker, number one 1 I find this highly, highly unusual at this point in time.

First of all the hon. member, when he qot up to ask u supplementury question, said he knew all the information that I was giving .• So, my question is,then, why did he ask the first ouestion if he knew all the information? There seems to be seeping into the questioning some question and doubt as to the competence of the six people who are now serving as a Royal Commission into the Ocean Ranger disaster. I would just say to the hon. member for Terra Nova (Mr. T.

Lush) if he is I would ask him to state his complaint or criticism I just cannot for the life of me believe that the hon. member for Terra Nova would use as a

preamble to his question marine cn~inccr anri architcct ,anri somehow not ~o on to expand the experience that this <tcntlcman has had-and I hate to get into individuals who are commissioners- 15d~

... June 1 , 1982 Tape No. 749 MJ - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: the experience that this gentleman has had in cold ocean research throu gh a Newfoundland Crown Corcoration in which their speci fie applied research in the last ten years has been into oil and gas developments of one sort and another and into applied research through contracts in the 13eaufort and Artie Islands as 111el1 as off Newfoundland and Labrador. . tt was a joint royal commission recommended by all. This is the first time I have heard 15911

June 1, 1982 Tape No. 750 NM - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: any suggestion whatsoever that the commission lacks the depth, the experience, and the competence to deal with this very unfortunate tragedy. MR. LUSH: MR. SPEAKER (Russell): hon. member for Terra Nova. A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A final supplementary, the MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, again there was no indication that anybody has questioned anybody's competence, Mr. Speaker. The nonsense that the Premier <Jets on with! There is nobody questioning competence. We are just questioning, Mr.

Speaker, to ensure that there was somebody on this commission that understood those circumstances,and if in the Premier's view it is covered,that is fine. That is fine. But, Mr. Speaker, to suggest that we are questioning their competence! The Premier is dismissing this, Mr. Speaker. The Premier is dismissing this in the same way that he has dismissed other questions that we have asked about this incident. Mr. Speaker, when we raise questions about the offshore,this is the way the Premier behaves. But anyway, Mr. Speaker, the other question that I - MR. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

Order, please~ The hon. President of the Council, a point of order. MR. MARSHALL: The hon. gentleman is asking a supplementary question and he is prece2ding it with a speech. He should get on to his question. He is not allowed to be making speeches under the guise of asking questions. MR. NEARY He is allowed a

preamble. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh~ MR. SPEAKER : Order, please~ ·1 58 J

June l, 1992 Tape No . 750 NM - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Russe ll) : Order, please ~ As all hon . membe rs know,there is only thirty minutes allocated for the Question Period and I would think that hon . members to my ri gh L, <>Lhe r hon. memb ers woulc.l lLkc to ask a question and indeed the questions should be brief with not very much of a

preamble . I would ask the hon. member for Terra Nov a (Mr. Lush) to be very precis e with his question his suprlementary. MR . LUSH: The question, t-tr . Speaker , wh ile we '"er e bickering and squabb li ng about which way we would go abo ut setting up a royal commission,the US acted very promptly and practically had hearings set up before we got off the ground . I am jusl wonder inq if the Premier can indicate now, Mr.

Speaker , where we stand with respect to having staff and office space and all of this sort of thing ,uecause I understand there was quite a problem with respect to getti ng these things in gear, getting staff , and qetting office space and all this sor t of thing . so can the Premier indicate whether this is all in gear now and whethe r the commissio n has gotten down to business to do the thinqs that of co urs e t hey ,, re required to do unde r the re ferenccs <Ji vcn them ? MR. SPEJ\KER : The hon. the Premier . PREMIER PECKFORD : Mr . Speaker , I mean the hon . the hon. th e member for Terra Nova (Mr .

Lush) cannot

preamble his question with a 159~

June 1, 1982 Tape 751 PK - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD:

preamble his question with a description of what has happened in the United States, and then go on to ask a question about ours without bringing into question and without me having to raise the issue that the han. member is indirectly, if not directly, questioning what the royal commission is doing, and is somewhat concerned about how long it is taking the commission in doing its work and is bounding upon the circumference of that area which talks about them not getting on doing their job properly. All I can say, Mr.

Speaker, is that we have appointed a royal commission, the federal government and the provincial governmenls,thut we have given them terms of reference which are extremely broad, may I say, much broader than what the United States Coast Guard or certification group had to contend with. And , you know, the United States Government is not going to operate the offshore of Newfoundland and Labrador. It is going to be lhe Government of Newfoundland with assistance from the Government of Canada. Therefore we have a greater obligation. So to somehow hint or suggest or imply in the

preamble to the question that a speedy inspection process than can occur in the United States of America somehow must be the kind of speedy process that has to occur in a royal commission on the tragedy, perhaps it is not the kind of linkage that we should entertain. Because the Governments of Newfoundland and Labrador and the Government of Canada are the ones who are ultimately going to be 15 ~H

June I, 1982 'l'ol['l' 751 PK - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: responsible for all that g~es on offshore, the kinds of rigs that are used in the exploration, the kind of rigs and platforms are used in the production , the subsea systems to be used on the ocean floor and all the rest of it . And so it gets far more complex and therefore our responsibilities as governments responsible for the exploration and development are f~r wider than those that the United States were responsible for in the certification of that •j 58 11

June 1, 1982 Tape No. 752 SD - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: particular platform or that particular rig. And so I do not, for a moment, entertain any suggestions that because the United States did it in that time frame it is therefore mandatory that the governments of Newfoundland and Labrador and Canada do it in that time frame.

So all I can say to the hon. member is jt is established, I understand that they have acquired office space, that they have already taken a number of important excursions around the world investigating rigs, talking to experts in the field of rig construction, talking to all sorts of experts around the world,and are now about to hire other staff and getting on with wading through the evidence and holding hearings. And I think that will be forthcoming very, very soon when they get into that position.

But they are about their work as they perceive their work to be,and I am not one to question the Commission with those terms of reference suddenly saying to them that they are perceiving their work in a wrong or incorrect manner. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): '['he hon. Leader of the Opposition . MR. NEl\f{Y : Mr. SpccJkcr, I Ll1ink IllY lHlll. colleague raised a very interesting matter and one that has been neglected in this !louse up to now in connection with safety of these rigs. And I wonder if the hon. Premier, Mr.

Speaker, would tell the House what safety regulations were in place at the time of the Ocean Ranger tragedy? What safety regulations - I am talking about provincial regulations now- were in place,and what safety regulations are now in place governing safety on board the rigs and the seaworthiness of the rigs themse1ves? And if there were safety rc0ulations in place and arc now in place, could we have il copy of these regulations tabled in this hon. House? MR. WARREN: llcar, hear! l\ qood question. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, we were 158S

June 1, 1982 Tape No . 752 so - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD : --· . in the process of developing our own spuc;i [ ic sn r cty l"C <JU Lil Llons throu<Jh consul ta Lion with the industry and others in the field around the world . And we ' wer e npplylnq at Lhe time the re<JUI.:lt.iuns thut the federal governme nt had already adopted until such time as we brought in our own. /\nd lvC wiU be only too happy , very shortly , to table our own regulations that we \o~ill be applying in the future . No problem . HR . NEARY : Supplementary , Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER (Russell) : Supplementary , the hon .

Leader of the Opposition . MR . NEARY : I am not quite sure if I understood the hon . Premie r correctly . He docs not give a straig ht answ er und it is hurd Lo follo w the hon . gentleman . Did I tmd crstn ncl from hi r; nnswcr that there were n() rrovincial ·1 5 j t1

June 1, 1982 Tape 753 EC - 1 MR. NE.I\HY: regulations in place requlating the seaworthiness or safety onboard these rigs,that the provincial government was merely following fed'eral regulations:· Is that the understanding I get from the answer given by the hon. the Premier? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, there were two sets. I am sorry that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition has great difficulty in understanding what I say.

I find that he is one of the few people who has difficulty understanding what I say and I do not know wilu.L Lla· l't'd!:on r()r llt<tl i ::I I Jill i l i :: " I it I I,. !Ji I <Jdd ann a littlr r.]t unusual; hr is one of the few. Two Lhings, Mr.

Sp~u.ker; number one, as I said, the specific technical regulations that were bei~g followed and enforced by the Province were those that had been adopted by the federal government, and we were applying them to the offshore here until we had our own specific regulations on it that were being developed at that time; and secondly, under the general provisions of the petroleum regulations, we still had the authorily ill uny point in time Lo shut down any ri<l offshore if, in our opinion, through the inspections that our people made on the riqs from time to time, there was any danger that we could perceive.

So we were followinq under two sets of requlations, the general petroleum regulations which were promulgated a number of years ago under which we had the power to shut down the whole offshore if we so wanted to, and, secondly, we were applying the federal regulations on safety in the absence of our own which were being developed by the Petroleum Directorate and which will now be operative very soon. ·1 5 j I

June 1, 1982 Tape 753 :EC - 2 MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell): A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. 1\ supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I am afraid that up to now T h~vc not been able to find any regulations that would involve the seaworthiness of rigs drilling off our coast, either provincial or federal. And the hon. gentleman can slough it off all he wants about following federal regulations. PREMIER PECKFORD: Question ! Question MR.

NEARY: In actual fact, the provincial government had no regulations and the federal regulations could not be enforced because the rig was flying a United States flag. Now, Mr. Speaker, what I want to ask the hon. gentleman is this: First of all, I would like to ask him if he intends to table copies of these provinci~l nncl federal rc<Ju1ations, as T asked him a few moments ago, and then when we get the regulations we will be able to have a look at them to see if, in actual fact, there were any regulations in place. I say no, there were not. But, Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that the point my hon. colleague raised 1 that one of the big problems on the Ocean Ranger and on the oil rigs was who had the responsibility of the rig, whether it was the tool pusher or the captain, would it not have been in the best interests of this Commission of Inquiry to have a master mariner, a man who is familiar with the savage storms and conditions of the North Atlantic, would it 159rl

June 1,1982 Tape No. 754 ah-1 MR. NEARY: not have been to their advantage to have a master mariner on that Commission of Enquiry? MR.SPEAKER (Russell): 'I'he han. the l' rcmicr . PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. ~peaker, all T can say to the hon. member is , one, I mean, if he does not believe that there were any regulations around or therP. are not any regulations around on safety that is up to the han. member to decide. I mean - MR.NEARY: Well,you are going to give it to me tomorrow,are you not? PREMIER PE~~~~RD: - he can say what he likes and that is all I can say.

And as I indicated already, and he did not hear that either, that answer, or did not understand it,that we have no problems in to.blinq jnformation as it relates to regulations that are in effect in the Province and that apply to various parts of the Province. The other point is, Mr. Speaker, we believe we have six very competent individuals who form that commission. And , you know, I am not going to try to prejudge whether another person with other qualifications should be on ,1;J.nd then another person i r there was LJ master mariner or somebody and then you need somebody else with another bit of expertise.

You might need somebody else there. There was a line oE authority over which there was some confusion. The commission is going to report on all that and indicate what the story was in that particular tragedy and what recommendations should be put in place for any other developments or exploration. So, you know, T do not know wh<1t the hem. member wants me to say about that. All I know is that we have a competent commission and thilt commission, 1 think, can handle the kinds of problems that the hon. member is now bringing up. If you had to have 'las I say, somebody of "15 8 ~

June 1,1982 Tape No . 754 ah-2 PREMIER PECKPORO : expertise all the way through the development , well, then you would have innumerable , you would have many , many individuals who have specific functions to perform on that rig,lll of whom should be commissioners to the Royal Commissi on. Obviously anybody who is competent and intelliqont and oxpe~ienccd will access ~11 of that expertise in the course of the hearings of the Royal Commission itself and get all of that .

May ! read to the hon . me mber, seeing this has been tabled a long time ago -this is the Ne\"foundland and l-abrador Petroleum Regulations • 1977 - may r reu<l for the hon. member 's benefit, and this was tubled n lonq time .J()o , I think \"hen I was the Minister of Enerqy , "'l'he mjnjstet" m.Jy intervene directly in <J licensee's , permitee's and Jeasee 's petroleum operations and may t.ake all necessary measures including ordering 1G Gn

June 1, 1982 1'ape 755 PK -1 ~REMIER PECKFORD: a permanent or temporary halt to the operations where the licencee or permitee or leasee js causin~ serious damage to the environment, renewable resources or property,or is carrying out its operations in such a way that there is a reasonable probability that such damage might occur. Or (

B) is carrying out operations in such a way that they could cause or are causing serious injury or debt to any person. Or because of force majeure or any other reason, nnt ~~le to properly manage the operation or any other reason, has repeatedly or seriously [a Lll.!d to comply with Lhe ac L, the requla U ons or " his licence ,permit or lease.

So here rirJht undor the petroleum rc<;ulaLions themsclvcs,in .:.Hldition Lo tlw olher salc'LY rcquL1tions that were beinq applied to this developmcnt,Lhe qovernment was proceeding to monitor and inspect and to ensure to the best of its ability that all the provisions of the various regulations were being carried out. I would commend to the hon. member, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary) in the House to get together with the Ll~adcr o[ the Opposition (T'r. ~tirlinq) outside of the House aml LO<Jl~ther re<1d throuqh these petroleum regulations so that questions in the future will be asked on the basis of these and in the absence of them. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER lRussell) : A supplementary, the hon. Leader of the Opposition. SOME HON. MEMBERS: !lear, hear ! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. Premier can treat this matter as lightly as he wants to. He can treat it as lightly , Mr. Speaker, as he likes.

But I can guarantee you that no royal commission is qoinq to let the administration off the hook as r:ar as the Ocean Ranger tragedy is concerned. 1 0 J .,

,Tune 1,1982 Tape 755 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, let me ask the hon. gentleman, is the hon. gentleman prepared, if he is as sincere as he says- and the regulations he just read, by the way ,do not mean a thing, Mr. Speaker, unless - SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: - unless, Mr. Speaker, unless the hon. gentleman can produce the back-up material.

And what I am going to ask the bon. gentleman now to do in man-fashion, if he has the courage to do it, and I doubt if he has the courage to do it, is to lay on the table of this House all the inspections, and all the data, and all the information that is available in connection with the Ocean Ranger from the time she sailed to 1·!cFfoundland Hate .rs and started drilling until the time she wenL to the bottom ? I[ the hon. qentleman is man enough and he has the courage let him produce and put the evidence on the table of this House. SO!~E EON. I'EMBF.RS: Hear, hear!

Mr:. !)'Df::JIJ<F.R (Russell): The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD : Mr. Speaker, if you just look back at the trend that this Question Period has taken, obviously up to this point in tim0 the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) and the member for Te~ra Nova (Mr. Lush) feel, somewhat inadequate. Now what happens to the Leader of the Opposition ncar the end of the Qu estion l'criod,when he is getting nowhere, is then he starts to get flamboyant and starts either to make charges or innuendo or to now lay it all on the table of this House. Mr. Speaker, the hon.

Leader of the Opposition is not the royal commission on the Ocean Ranser tragedy. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: The hon. Leader of the Opposition, you know, does not bestride the world like a huge collossus. I meaP ,there are other peple around who have a little bit of expertise too. That is why both levels of government have appointed a royal commission to look into this 160)

June 1, 1982 Tape 755 PK - 3 PREMIER PECKFORD: very serious incident. And all of the inspections, documentations, investigations that the Petroleum Directorate 1 G iJ :-1

Jun e 1, 1982 Tape No. 756 NM- 1 PREMIER PECKFORD : entered into, and other people in the Department of Labour and Manpower, and others who were involved. All of those documents and those inspection reports will be given to this independent, objective royal commission,and it is on the basis of those inspections and examinations and evidence that will be brought forward by thos e inspectors that un objective decision will be made as to what happened in the Ocean Ranger disaster and to make recommendations so that it is less likely to happen in the future.

So that,therefore,that is why the royal commission was established, Mr. Speaker, and I do not think for the life of me, with all due respect to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Ne..:~ry) in!;jd< ~ Llw llousc, that he suddenly is going to be the examiner und the final arbitrator on what actually happened on the Ocean Ranger disaster. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: MR. WARREN: Hear, hear! A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. The people of this Provinc e - wiJ 1 want to know why - MR. SPEAKER (Russell): A supplementary, the hon. Leader of the Oppo sition. MR. NEJ\RY: Mr. Speaker., no royal commission supercedes this House.

The royal commission is set up as a result of a joint participation by this House, by this administration, but that does not mean, Mr. Speaker, that questions should not be asked in this House. PREMIER PECKFORD: You ask them. MR. WARREN: Right. Right. Right. MR. NEARY: I am merely asking the hon. gentleman some questions in connection with this tragedy. PREMIER PECKFORD: No problem. •j G !_j Ll

June 1, 1982 Tape No. 756 NM -2 MR. NEARY: And the hon. gentleman, as I say, can treat it as lightly as he wants and try to slough it off on a royal commission,but he will not suceed, Mr. Speaker. MR. WARREN: The same as he did February 14th. MR. NEARY: lie will nol succeed. Now let us get back to the question I put to the hon. gentleman. The question has to do with information for this House.

Will the hon. gentleman under­ take to get for this Ilouse all the data, information, reports, inspections on the Ocean Ranger from the time she sailed into Newfoundland waters to start drillinrJ und cxplorinq off our shores for qas and oil, if the Premier wlll lay that information on the table of this !louse? MR. WARREN: MR. SPEAKEll (RI!tiS<;ll) I 1'1 I ill I I I 1 I I I '''''' \'' '' "" II• ,I ,,,,,,d i 1 111 MR. NEARY: his way out. PRJ::MIER PECKI•'OIW: No way. no way. 'I'll<~ hill!. lllo, i'lo!llli<~l II I I l1 Or will he try and weasel f have al fl~udy i!llSWcretl I h,1t yucstion, and T am not, Mr.

Speaker, l:ry j '''I to shy aw~ty from anything, and I do not look lightly upon this matter and I do not know why the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) says I do. I have been answerin~ questions that he has been posing. MR. NEARY: The tone of your answers. MR. NEARY: The tone of my answers'! Oh, here we go. _Here is the subjective man again. Jlc is bcstridinq the world like a Colossus again,is he? The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) is iusl nnl the fi11,!l rll•cisio11 mo~kcr now in this hon. House, Mr. Speaker. We will let him know.

He might be feelin<] his oats a bit because perhaps he thought he would be the only leader of the Liberal Party after the weekend and,I mean,that is not my fault. I was not out there. ·1 GuS

June l, 1982 Tape 757 EC - 1 PREMIER PECK~ORD: I was not out there. Perhaps he is a tiny bit jittery. He is only half a leader, Mr. Speaker. I do not know why he is so jittery, why nPnr the rnd nf PVPry Question Period he gets so jittery. You know, I cannot answer that. All I know is that we have, as two governments, established a Royal Commission which is going to place the matter outside of politics, which is going to give an objective assessment of what happened at the Ocean Hanger tragedy and try to make recommenda­ tions so it docs not happen again.

And to me that sounds like a reasonable and sensible way to proceed on this very difficult matter. SOME liON. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKEH (Russell): Hear, hear! A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A final supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, we have a whole raft of questions to ask on this subject, but I will ask what I consider to be one of the most significant questions as my last question to the hon. gentleman.

Could the hon. gentleman tell the House if there will be a preliminary report submitted by the Royal Commission before next Fall and next Winter, before we get into the stormy conditions of the North Atlantic? Will there be a preliminary report made that would indicate whether or not we should allow these rigs to continue drilling during the Winter months or if they should only drill at certain times in the year? There arc time restraints here, Mr. Speaker.

I would like for the hon. gentleman to put people's minds at ease as to whether or not a preliminary report or any report will be made in time to take that very important ·1 G l.J 8

June l, 1982 Tape 757 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: decision as to whether or not these rigs can drill safely in the Winter months off our coast. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): '\'he hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, that is a decision that will have to be made by the Royal Commission. MR. NEARY: Four years from now. We could have another tragedy. PREMIER PECKFORO: Mr. Speaker, I never opened my mouth when the hon. the Leader of the Opposition just asked his question, and now I woulci appreciate the courtesy of being able to respond to his question without him opening his mouth. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER PECKFORD: I think that is one of the rules of the House. If hon. members want answers, well then, they must listen. Otherwise, how can they get answers, Mr. Speaker? That is a question that will have to be answered by the Royal Commission in the knowledge that they have before them and the amount of work that they can do up to the end of the Fall, and ul timatul y, that is one considura Lion. 'L'hc Hoyu.l Commission might consider it appropriate if they have enough information. If they do not have enough inforrnation,~hey might consider it inappropriate.

The other point of it then will have to be whether the government, the Newfoundland and Labrador Government or the federal crovcrnment, i ndepcndcntl y or to(;ctlwr, wish to con:.i der that i ssuf' 1 <Iter on this year, separate from the Roya] Commission preliminary report or in addition to the preliminary report from 1GLi7

June l, 1 982 PREMIER PECKFORO : fact one is submitted . l\N liON . MEMBER : t1R. SPEAKER (Russell) : has expired . Tape 757 EC - 3 a Hoyal Commission, if in Right on ! Order , please ! '!'he time for Question Period REPORTS BY STJ\NDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTE:ES t-IR . SPEAKER : Public Wo rks . MR . YOUNG : The hon . the Minister of Mr . Speaker , I would like to table a directory of government offices located in ~: 1. ,Jo hn' ~ nnd lht• nrcu . llur.lntJ the gs li mcJtcs this mo1 ·ning , Mr . Spcukcr , 1G 0ci

June 1, 198 2 Tape No . 758 MJ - 1 MR . II . YOUNG : the hon . member for Terra Nova (Mr . T. Lush) claimed that he could not find out where the office spaces that ore in Sl. John's nrc rented . The following directory gives the mailing address and the walk-in locations of the divisions of government departments located in St . John 's and area . SOME HON . MEMBERS : --------------- Ilea r, hca r! MR . YOUNG : It 1s only a ma tt er , Mr . Speaker, of just going in and askinc; and you will r]ct ull the information . That has been done since 1981. SOHE HON . HEMBERS : !lear, hear! SOME HON . MEMBERS : Oh, oh!

ORDERS OF TILE DAY On motion , a bill , "1\n Act 1'o /\mend 'I'he Livestock (Community Sales) Act" , n!atl a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. (lli 11 No . 30) MR . 5?~- (Russell) :_ Order, please! On moliun, .J hi 11, "/\n Acl ln Provide For The Appointment Of Parliamentary Secretaries To Ministers Of The Crown" , read a first time , ordered read a second tim e o n tommorrow . (Bill No . 45) On motion, the !louse resolved itself into Committee of the \oJholc on \-lays and ~1eans to consider the raising of supply to be granted to Her Ma jesty . MR .

SPEAKER : -------- · The debate \vas adiourned yes tcrday by the hon . member for Port nu Po rt (Mr . • J. lloddcr) . MR. J . IIODDC:Il : Mr . Spcclker, wh <.•n I .tdjnurnt•d ycstct:ciDy 1 was makinq .:1 rcw comments oboul the s.1 wmillin•1 Jndusl'ry «ntl "16i.d

Junu J, 1982 'l'upc No . 758 MJ - 2 MR. J . HODDER: I 1vould like to quote from a

section of the budget . "(t says , "As a boost to the sa1vmilling industry , a retai~ sales tax exem~tion is being provided for capital expe nditur es made by sawmill operators and used directly in a manufacturinq process . " Now on the surface, Mr . Spea ker, this would sound like a very gooa move by the government . Because as we kno¥1, Mr. Speaker , the saMnilling industry in this Province has been in f.inanciat difficulties for quite a long time . Mr .

Speaker, I do not know if hon . members and the qeneral public when they saw , because I did see some comments as to this being a very good thing, but I do not know if the qeneral public and hon . members rea~ized that what was given with one hand ., 61 f1

June 1, 1982 'l'ape No. 759 SD - 1 MR. IIODDER: l:hat whot was qiV('n with on<~ h<HHI was taken away with two hands because, Mr. Speaker, the Budget went on to say that pulpwood stumpage on Crown lands, the rate would be raised from fifty-five cents to eighty-three cents per cubic meter to $1.40 to $2.25 per cubic meter,which is almost triple, Mr. Speaker, that commercial firewood would be raised frorr. fifty-five cents to $1.10 per cubic meter, that the rate for construction timber would be up thirty cents to $2.70 per cubic meter,which is about three times again, Mr.

Speaker, over three times 1 and that cutting permits were raised from $2.00 to $5.00. Now, Mr.

Speaker, when we look at the sawmillinq industry in this Province , there has been much debate ilhout the sawmiJ 1 inq inuustry 1 because the sawmillinq inclustry could be a vt~rv hcilli·hv inclustrv, but we have had more sawmills qo bankrupt and we have more sawmillers who are in financial straits in this Province, particularly in a Province which could supply all of its oun timber, so I think it is a travesty of iustice and that as well it is ludicrous,that in the same Budget as one of its stimulative measures that the government would claim that they are boosting the sawmilling industry by giving a retail tax exemption for capital expenditures made by sawmill operators,and at the same time the timber which the sawmill operators must take in order to pursue their livelihood ,they would triple the sturnpaqc rate.

Mr. Speaker, the [orest industry represents Newfoundland and Labrador's greatest single potential for import substitution. It is an industry that can create local jobs rather than relying on the heavily imported wood products v!hich \·'c have thtc rtcsourccs on this Province to provide and to create ourselves. Newfoundland and Labrador uses about 80 million to 100 mil Lion board feet of lumber a year, ·1 G l I

June 1, 1982, 'l'ctpc 760, Page 1 -- apb MH. HODDER: but it provides only 33 per cent to 50 per cent of this itself, the rest comes from as far away as British Columbia. In actual fact, we really, in this Province - the only wood we should be developing in this Province is timber of larger dimensions and specialty wood such a mahogany, oak, and some of the woods which we do not - redwood - provide here in the Province. It was also understood, Mr. Speaker, that the minister, in Committee this morning, the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr.

Power), had indicated that there would be a cut back in the number of licences issued in the Province as well. So here we have a budget with one of its stimulative measures the decrease of retail sales tax, an exemption of retail sales tax for capital expenditures to small sawmill operators, to be used in the manufacturing process, we have a cutback in the number of licences and we have told the sawmillers now that you have to pay three times as much for stumpage as you did before. So, Mr.

Speaker, it boggles the imagination that the government could on the one hand say they were stimulating the sawmill industry and on the other hand would triple fees. And I might say, Mr. Speaker, to explain some of those fees, when the budget says that, for instance, the rate of construction timber will go up thirty cents to $2.70 per cubic meter for timber, and from $3.50 to $4.00 for stacked lumber, that the $3.50 is, I understand, for those areas where there are no forestry access roads and the $4.00 would be for areas where there are access roads. Now, I can understand, Mr.

Speaker, where the government has to put in expensive access roads 1 6 j 2

June 1, 1982 •rape 761 EC - 1 z.m . HODDER : that there perhaps would be a higher stumpage fee but , Mr . Speaker, to up the stumpage fees for small sa \ofllli llers, an industry , Mr . Speaker , which could be self-sufficient in this Province - and I might say something else about that industry, Mr . Speaker . \·Jhen we talk about what could happen to the sawmill industry - ~r .

Speaker, I am told that the problems the sawmillers have in this Province is that many of them arc very small and their problen is that they C?tnnot - when somE! of the lar<;e lurnbcry<~rds here in Lhe Pro vi nee .1rc lookin(J for timber, they are looking Cor a <Juara nteed supply from a particular sawmiller for a long period of time .

NO\", I have talked to a number of sawmillers across the Province and I am told what they are looking for - and it makes a great deal of sense to me - what they are looking for is some sort of a co -operative movement so that the small saloflllillers can join themselves toqcthcr in a co-operative and perhaps have a common storage place in various areas of the Province whereby you can have a - MR . TOBIN : Where arc vour buddies? MR. HODDER : Mr . Speaker , I do not have to preach to the converted . lin . TOBIN : You loo!~ kind of lonely . Come over . MR . HODDER : Oh , Mr .

Speaker , I am quite happy wh ere I am . My colleagues know that I need no support when I stand here to speak on this particular budget . Mr . Speaker, what is needed is a co -operative movement amongst the small sawmillers 'I G, -;

June 1, 1982 Tape 761 EC - 2 MR. HODDER: which should be headed by this government, one so thut members in u particular 1 G i L

.. June l, 1982 Tape No. 762 ah-1 MR. HODDER: ---· geographic area can bring their lumber to a centralized yard where there would be a kiln for drying that lumbc~ because I am told, Mr. Speaker, that the long grain fibre , the type of timber that we produce in this J>rovince,is superior to the timber that comes in the Province. But very often, Mr.

Speaker, if some one goes to a local sawmiller and there are no facilities in the area for drying , and they are expensive facilities, that you get what is known as green lumber.l\nd very often people, the lilnJc companies in the Province,wo~ld prefer to buy their lumber from outside the Province because it is in a better situation. So, Mr. Speaker, unJess we start to take initiatives such as this we may as well kiss the sawmill industry goodby. And do not forget, Mr.Speaker, that we use eighty to one hundred million board feet of lumber per year but provide only thirty-five to fifty per cent of this timber.

And now, Mr. Speaker, we have a Budget that has told the sawmillers that they would give them, provide then• with a retail sales tax exemption, but then has tripled their stumpaqe rates which, Mr. Speaker, the retail sales tax exemptions or eleven per cent wil.l not <JO cJose to the c> :l:ru cosL. ~;u<JCJc·st, Mr. Spcilkcr, lhut this move will put sawmillers,more sawmillcrs,out of business. And on top of that, Mr. Speaker, the minister has announced to a committee this morning that there will be cutbacks in the number of licenses. Now, Mr.

Speaker, that is development; that is the way this government is developing the Province. Increased output, Mr. Spcilker, of Ncw!ounul.and ;md l.,liJrcJd<>! llllliiH·r c<>uld create more jobs for a given amount of wood used than would pulp and paper production. If we took this particular ·1 G i 5

June L,l982 'l'u[JC No . 762 ah -2 MR. 110001-:R : .:~spcc:t o( the £orcst industry, and we have been watching for ten years \t~hile sawmillers in the Bay D'Espoir area have been going bankrupt, sawmillers in the llawke ' s Bay region have been qoing bankrupt , sa "Vnnillers right across the Province have not been able to make it. ~nd , Mr. Speaker , perhaps this is one of the harshest moves that this government has made,to limit the number of licenses in the Province , to raise the stumpage fees and to destroy the sa"Vnnill industry . So that wh at we have done , Mr. Speaker, what we have done is to destroy the forest industry in this ·1 G i 6 ,.

June 1, 1982 Tape No. 763 NM- 1 MR. HODDER: Province, and now we have to depend only on imported wood. And, Mr. Speaker, this Province has enough wood if used properly to be able to create jobs, as many jobs as there are in the forest industry. Mr. Speaker, I would suggest to this government that they adopt a strategy for the Province's forest industry that would strive to achieve some goals. We have done nothing in this budget. I said yesterday that it was not a stimulative budget.

I think what has been done to the sawmill industry in this budget probably typifies more than anything else, perhaps even more than the raising of loans to farmers and fishermen, because this one has qonc to the heart of development in the Province. Mr. Speaker, it is time we found out in the Province how imported lumber could be replaced by local suppliers at comparable cost. And it is time we started to perhaps look into ways in which we can get · a greater volume of timber with less wastage. Some of our small sawrnillers, Mr. Speaker, have equipment which should be upgraded.

Perhaps the lowering of sales tax could help that,but the government has again taken away with two hands what they gave with one when they increased the stumpage fees. Mr. Speaker, another suggestion I would give to this government is to use present cuts of wood for higher value products, including,Mr. Speaker, the expansion of white birch, the white birch hardwood production for local usc and possibly for cxporL, 'rom this Province. Mr. Speaker, the United States and the European countries are crying out for hardwood and yet, Mr. Speaker, you can go in ,my part of this Province dttcl yuu see bircll dying.

Very often, Mr. Speaker, the birch is a by-product of ·1 6 i 7

June l, 1982 Tape No. 763 NM - 2 MR. HODDER: the operations of the paper companies. And that birch is left there to - MR. TULK: The beautiful stands are dead. MR. HODDER: The beautiful ·1 G i H

June l, 1982 Tape 764 EC - 1 MR. HODDER: stands across this Province, as my colleaque, the member for Pogo (rJ\r. Tulk) ,who ~s the spokesmar. on forestry and agriculture, says, ''['he beautiful stands are dead." In the Birchy area, Mr. Speaker - MR. 'l'lJLK: The Gander Bay road. MR. HODDER: - and the Gander Bay Road, my hon. colleague tells me, and right across the Province, you have beautiful stands of birch which are not being utilized by this qovernment and which are dying. Mr.

Speaker, another move that this Province might have made is to better integrate the pulp and sawmill operations so that the waste wood from the· mills could become pulp chips. Mr. Speaker, where is the imagination of this government? Mr. Speaker, the first thing we have to do is to improve the Forest Land Management and Taxation Act. We have to increase attention to conservation practices, particularly where fuel wood cutting is threatcninq valuable stands. And, Mr. Speaker,' we have to develop a small log sawmill technology as is incurring in most other jurisdictions in this country. Mr.

Speaker, perhaps most important of all, we must continue the encouragement for community management of the forests. Mr. Speaker, this particular industry, the beleagured sawmill industry which was struck a blew in the heart by this budget, is on its last legs; it is dying, Mr. Speaker. And I feel that the move in this budget to raise the stumpage fees to those people who are trying to make their living ·1 G i ~

June l, 1982 Tape 764 EC - 2 MR . HODDER: from the forest industry will destroy what inltlntivc is left i.n that particular indus lr y, .Jnd these arc people , Mr . Speaker , who love the work they have and arc asking for some plan ning. I have menti oned her e in this Hous e before that \oJe should start trying to supply our own suppliers . The only wa y we can do it is if we form those small sawmillers into co -ops . \'ie do not, Mr. Speaker, raise the ir stumpage fees , we do not triple their stumpage fees and drive them out of business, but we try to make their operations prof itable. Mr .

Speak er , that has not been happening in this Province . Mr . Speaker , while I am on this partic1.1lar subject , a piece that I saw in the paper , T think it wa s in yesterday' s paper , mentioned that Newfoundla nd was the only Province undecided on joi ning the feder al forestry programme . Here we have, Mr . Speake r, a 1G2 11

June 1, 1982 Tape No. 765 SD - 1 MR. HODDER: There we have, Mr. Speaker, a government that cares for the forest industry. Newfoundland is tlw only Provinct' which has noL decider! whether to participate, to create jobs for unemployed forestry workers. ''Fred Pollett of the Canadian Forestry Service said Thursday,"Proposals have been developed with the other provinces which only require the approval of Treasury Board before they go into operation. The government has made about $170 million available to hire unemployed wood workers and mill hands to improve forests.

The money is used to supplement unemployment insurance payments the workers now are getting," Pollett said. The programme is one of a number of federul plans to create jobs for workers laid off because of the slow economy." Mr. Speaker, it says, "After the agreement is sig~ed with a province on what projects should be undertaken , private companies or government agencies can oversee the work. In some provinces workers could earn $300 a week plus frin~c benefits." Now, Mr. Speaker, there is a programme that sounds like we could use it here in this Province. But, Mr.

Speaker, this Province is the only province that is undecided to join. I could not understand, Mr. Speaker, I still cannot understand, and I will ask and I will again someone who stands to speak on that side of the House to explain to me 1why it is that we are the only Province undecided on joininq the federal forestry programme, a new programme to create jobs 1 when this government brags and talks about the number of jobs that will be created. How many, Mr. Speaker, ' are we losing because of lack of foresight and the fact that we cannot get along with our =ederal counterparts in Ottawa? But, Mr.

Speaker, just to recap, we have a dying industry in LIH· sctwmil 1 i tH.lu<;tr'y'. We hav(• il <JOVt'rnm,•nl who brouqht in a Budget which p~rportedto help the sawmillers on the one hand and on the other hand tripled the fees for which they 1621

June 1, 1982 Tape No . 765 so - 2 MIL lllllllli ·:U : \~ntJI d Jt,IVo• I 0 C'll l I Ito• C I WCH)d. t-1r . Spe<tkc-r, thnt to me is no wny to t.r:y to corr~ct a dying i.ndus try . M.r . Speaker , another po.int that I would like to mention, I would like to refer to the Auditor General's Report . Mr. Speaker , I took the trouble to add up the amount of money mentioned in the Auditor General 's Report which was either mismanaged or lost or uncollected . Mr. Speaker , would hon . members believe that the total money thnt h;'l:-> bt!t'n mism.ln.tqccl in this 1 .1st 1\ucl i.tor General 's Report was $332,004 ,20~ .

No w, Mr . Speaker, that is not money lost to the 'l'reasury, some of it is , some of the mone·; is lost to the Treasury ,but that is the total amount of tttOII''Y wlto•n you 'I" lhttott•tlt, ,lfld I did il .t:; .t I ill It• exer:cisc after I received the Auuitor General 's Report, and wrote down the amounts of money 1G2 /

June 1, 1982 , Tape 766, Page 1 -- apb t·1R . HODDER : which the Auditor Genera l ILad I isLml na1L, which ht~d bt!C'Il uli~;o~ppropri,l(r-d or had been s~t incorrectly . C>lr . Spcilkcr, that is one -third of our provincial budget, npproximately one- third of the provincial money that was spent in the budget last year in some way or other had been mismanaged by Lhis government . Now, Ma· . Spc.:.~ker , how can we trust the gov ernment? DR . ~tCNICHOLAS: . -·- - That is a very strong s-a ~ cment . MR . HODDER: Well, Mr.

Speaker , if the member opposite would like to get the Auditor General's Report for this year, und sit down and totnl up the .;mount!-: or money th.al the Aut!] lor Cit·lll.'~"·•l mentions, because he mentions it at the end o( each

section in his report, if he would like to sit down and total up the amounts of money Lhat h;wc been ci thl!C misappropriated, dealt with improperly , or plainly lost to the Province, or which is outstanding to the Province , the total amou nt, when you siL down with your pencil ~nd you total up the amounts, the total amount is $332,004,205 .00 . Now, Mr . Speaker , I did another little exercise with the Auditor Generill 's Report . AN BON . !-\EMBER : (inaudible) . MR. HODDER: ---- --- Oh , yes . Mr .

Spea ker , 1vh cn it com<.!s tc; the 1\ud it ()l . r:cncr,l L 'H l~c:po• l, .11ad l••l me tell hon .members opposite •,oc are not fiuishcd with the 1\udiLor General 's Heport , Lhc Auditor (:oncrc.~l' s Heport has not been put away , we have noL forcrottcn it . Th ere are more little goodies in the Auditor General's Report . The more we read the more amazed we become . ·1 G2 .1

June 1, 1982 , Tape 766 , Page 2 -- apb MR. BARRETT: \'lh y not read this one? Why tlo you not IX' ~m:Jzccl .1nd r<':Hl this one? MR . HODDER : If the hon . member woul.d like to send me over that copy I will read it. I read everything , Mr. Speaker , that comes in front of me . SO ME UON. MEMBERS: -··- ---- ·- - -- lle.:~r, hear ! MR. HODDER : ------ Mr .

Speaker, most reports that come from this government , their Five Year Plans and everything else, I have yet to see anything come that has impressed me about this government in the seven years - almost eight - that I hav e been standing in this l~use of Assembly . Mr . Speaker , in the Auditor General 's Report , forgetting that there was mismanagement of one-third of the budget, $332 ,004,205 .00 - anyone in this Province can take the Auditor General 's Report and just total up how much money was spent incorrectly, mismanaged . But, Mr.

Speaker , of this amount I checked through the amount of money that this Province is not receivinq, the amount of overpayments which have be en made, the SSA tax 1.,hich the Department of Finance - $2 million worth of SSA tax which the Department of Finance is thinking about writing off. Uncollected miner ill and mining taxes , Mr . Speaker, ·1 u 2 l1

June 1, 1982 Tape No . 767 NM - 1 ~1R . HODDER : l>lhich \o~e havC:! not collected in this Province is $6,378,800. 18 . Mr . Speaker, accounts receivable, pupil/teachers, ~ccounts receivable studcnl aid , poor cash mana c;e mcnt resul tj nq j n unn<•ccssary cost t-o the Pro vinc e, $11,6&2, Not much, Mr. Spe<.~kcr . Ovcrp<tymcnl.s o( soci,tl assistance- $3 ,697,960, Mr. Speaker, and I coulc spend an hour talkinn about the efforts of this qovernment when they started to try and collect in 1982 b;:~ck Le> 1974, which sho• ... s Mr .

Speaker, and this qovernment has been in power f.or ten years , and they arc now tryinq to collect from social service recipients back to 1974 and 1975 and 1977 . Ovcrpaymenl.s lost to the Province $3,000,697. Mr . Speaker, complimentary tickets at the Arts and Culture Centre- $20,717 ; gratuitous payments of public funds and deficiencies in engineerinq design estimates, this is money lost, Mr. Speaker, to the Province - $12,500; failur~ to rccondlc payments of $516,750 with ~hn ~ctual charge incurred and ,Mr .

Speaker, I understand with .:111 l.h~t we huvc col.l0<.:tccl on th.tL, w<1 sti II have $48,000 outstanding. rom. WARREN : ~1R. HODDER: Shameful. Payment of $374,196 in rental and related expenditure for unoccupied space- $374 ,000 . MR. NEARY: Oh,that Ls the Premier's buddy, his pal. That is the Premier's pal . MR . IIODDI::R: t·lr. Spc<!kl•r, .:111 nvcrp,1yment of - DR . COLLINS : day .did I nol.? MR . NEARY : MR . HODDER: ~1R . NEARY: I dealt w j lh lha t the ollwr I bcq your par<lon ·1 - of 1980 qcneral municipal - No, you have not deall with it. ·1 G2:'1

June 1, 1982 '!'ape No . 767 NM - 2 MR. 110001-:R: - ovcrpnyment of l9RO qeneral municipi.!l nssi!_; Lunc:c q rant - MR. NEARY : You talk about sca ndals . MR . HODDER : - not recovered - $23 ,600 . Now , Mr . SOP.nker, would you guess how much this adds up to , this money not collected ~ tllow \.rhat t told you before , the money that I merltioned by just going through the Auditor General 's Report was money that wus mismanaged . That was $332,004,205 . That was the mismanagement . But the money not collected , Mr .

Speaker , the money that this government even with its - that the Department of Justice ca nnot get its ha nds on and the Department of Finance cannot get its hands on , comes to $26 ,588 ,270, ~lr . Speaker , and that would pave a lot of roads . MR . NEARY : And keep a lot of hospitals open . MR . HODDER : And keep a lot of hospitals open. MR . Wl\RREN : Yes . Even the one in Markland . MR . HODDER: And I would say to the minister ., 6 2 fl

June 1, 198 2 Tape 768 PK - 1 MR . HODDER : say to the minister again , and I said it ye sterday , !>ut he \·Jas not here yesterday , until you bring in some legislation "'hich will - because when I pay my SS/\ ta:< and when any person in this Province pays their SSJ\ ta x they may not llke .it, they muy not 1 i.k o i l: - MR . W/\RRBN : --·--- That is riqhL . ~11( . IIODDEH: - bul Lhcy <:t•rL.alnly do nol want it co ~o into the hands of. private businessmen , they w.:~nt it to come into th~ Public Treasury . ~lR . Nt::l' 'P" : Riqht on. S0~1E HON . m:r.mERS : Hear, hear ! Ml~ . HODDJm : . - .. - 1\nd , Mr· .

Spe;•k<'l' , in the· Auditor General 's report . t~i~ vcar $26 ,588 ,270 is owinq to the Pu blic Treasury either from mismanaqemcnt or the inability to collect . !UL "" ~RP.U : "oor m.:~naqcmcnL. ~m . HODDER : ------ 1\nd would urqc the Mi nister of Finance (Or . Collins ),and Twill be on my feet supporting him - MR . WARREN : Yes , that is ri.qht . MR .

HODDER : - the day he works out a scheme whereby when SSI\ is paid to a businessman that that SSA comes into the Treasury, Lhat it is pu t into a Spl~Ci.al account, retJardless or whut uccountinq p1·ocedurcs , an<l j t cnn be worked out tha t that SSJ\ comes to the Provj ncia l Trcusury an'l is not written off in bunkruptcv . tiT\ . I 'A~ PEN: l'!i<•ht on ! l1R . '\1'. "tf.fc.IILT,: Perhan$; vnu r,nnltl hir(• 11r . Rnmnlrev and some of his collectors . l.fR . v1ARREN : \-7hat wa s thoU MH . NI~J\IW : No ,.,.., will hiro· llw Mini:>~•·• · of Fisheries (''r . :!orqiln) . S01-1E HON. 1>\E~ERS : Oh, oh ! 1027

June l, 198 2 '!'ape 768 PK - 2 MH . Wf\Hf(J•:N : No,wo will hire you . MR . HODDF.R: No , Mr . Speaker ~ MR. Wl\HRt·:N: You work for the Bank o f Montreal . MR . HODDER: No , no , ~~ . Speaker , the hon . member opposite c an thro'' his dirt and his bile across . J have no - MR. NE7\RY : lie can be as nasty as he l ikes . JI.IIL 11011DgR: ·- ··---·- .. ·-- - and be as nnsty as he 1 i k<! S . MIL Wl\RHEN: He works for the Bank of Montreal hi~sull . ~m . N!~:l\ RY : Peop~e are getting fed up with him . MR . WARREN: He can collect it for the nank of Montreal , see . MR . HODDER : But , Mr .

Speake r Mll • _ _]_El\ RY : They recognize him for what h<" is . MIL JlODDim: - I ~tdll cell the member opposite t hat if h.c really cares for what is happening - MR. NI·:AHY : The !';ynbol of nastiness . ~m.

IIODDP.Tl: - in this Province 1 he will brinC'J in legisla ·tion , he \oJ ill brinq in legislation which \-Jill cause this problem which we have seen over the years to stop businesses from collecting retail sales tax and we saw in the Auditor r;eneral's report where a business went bankrupt, did not remit its taxes , then went and got another licence , went into business aqa] n , went ban!;:ru;:>t il<Jilin, it did not remit its taxes . M.r . Speaker , there must be a way , and there .is a way, ·1 G2 H

June 1, 1982 Tape No . 769 MJ - l MR. J . HODDER: j n which 1vc cnn <'nsur.a that when this SS1\ taxes arc collected that they CJO into .:m account, that they not be thrown into the business and paid out at the will of the businessman . There are t::oo many pec>ple in this Province payinq their tax~s which neve1· ul·rive co the qovernmcnL . 1\nd, remember, Mr . Speaker, those taxes come bnck to provide services . And when I say , ~r. Speaker, and 1 - MR . S. NEARY: One company went bankrupt, there taxes were written off , then Lhey formed n new company and then they got a rew licuncc . MR .

HODDF.R : Yr'S. 'l'hu t iS th\' lliW T 1-/<lS rt~ r1'rri.nq to . t~r . Spcnkcr, $21> , l)fl8, 270 i :: owinCJ to this Province either from tot.Jl rnis ma na qcmcnt oc the total inability to collect or because of l.>ad leqislation whic:h does not enable the Province to collect . 1\nd I would s.:1y to the Minister of Justice (~lr- . G . Ottenheim<~r:) if he 1"crc in his se.:tt that t'lcrc would be no uncollected mineral taxes in this Province . OR . J. COLLINS : --------- There is no nrisman.:HJcmcnt . MR . S. NEARY : Yes,therc is no doubt about that . Thn nest managed oubllc debt too, T suppose. p_R _:_ 59_!.1.

T!_~S _: 'l'hosl' •Jroccdun•s ( .i nilmli hIP). MR . NE/\RY: 'fhe best man.1qed public dcbl, t:hi.lt is what you will be tellin9 us next . DR . COLLINS: The best in Canada . -------~1R . NEARY: Yes . There is no doubt about that . When vou start borrowing from your own sinking fund, that is the best •••<maqc:d f-'innncc r>c•:>artmcnl in Cnn;l<l<~. MR . G. \·IARREN : Yes, Sir . The 1vorse Finance t-1inister ever in Ncwroun<lli!ncl historv . MR . NEAR Y: That is a s i qn or b,.m k ruptt~y. c\R . \-IARREN : Yes . ·1 G2 ~

June l, 1982 Tape No. 769 MJ - 2 MR. :r. IIODDP.H: Mr. Spraker, we should not tolerate the continuinq misuse of public funds by the retail tax collectors. We shouLd not t.oler<1tc, Mr. Speaker, the misuse of public funds in this Province by retail sales tax collectors. And, Mr. Speaker, we must bring in legislation to make sure that this does not happen and I am sure, Mr. Speaker, that 1 G 3 fl

June l, 1982 •rape No. 770 ah -1 MR. t!ODDER: I am sure, Mr. Speaker, that such legislation will be brOU<Jht in t1nd it w.iJ 1 be applauded by all pcopl c. ln tlri.$ Pro vi nee. Mr. Speaker, to turn a moment to or1c of the other par Ls or the nud<Jcl t~hcre the people of the Province got knifed in the back. t>!R. HOUSE: !lOl-l much lonqcr"? ~!R. WARREN: '1'1·10 more days you 1~111 hove this. NR. HOUSE: t have an Estimate Conunittec. MR. Nr:J\RY: Go dmvn and open yc>ur hospitals, boy. Close tlo1vn thl! jails you .1n·l>uiJ<linq .!IHI open up the hm;pit<.IIH. MR.

HODDl::ll: We kni r C'd llw 1 i Lt 1 c t:ld I d ron in Lhc: back with the;: one dental treatment when 1-10 hilvc less -and r would like tc say it ag,d n because some pc~oplc st i 1 J do nol realize it -we have les~ dentists per population than any other province in Canada, and there arc dcnt.ists in this Province that do not agree with the mlnlstcr. MR. NEARY: Ophrthalmoloqlst, we have less. MR. HODDER: l.lut besides somo o.f those, you know, what can you S<lY <lbout hospital beds·? 1 snicl, T Hupposc, what J; could say about it yesterday. Hul: r \·mnl to say something that I did not say yesterclay.

I want to talk about the only thir.g complimentary ubout this nud<JC t, Mr. Speaker, is that the minister had the - MR. NEARY: \·le kept it off the television. 'l'hat is the only thinq we could Sily about it. MR. HODDER: -he had the race of a -robber's horse to brin~; it in, Hr. Speaker. MR. NEAH'l: llow Ju.rtunatt: t.:.lw people o( tlw Provine<.: were Lha t I·IC woul cl not u 1 J ow U vc !1 rc)i\<JCn~ tinq. MH. l!ODOER: MR. NEl\RY: Mr. Speaker, LIH!t·o lilas il tnsk force rcpo1·l.. 'l'ht~y would not fc1rqive us for ·1 G S i

June l,l9H2 'l'.:tpc No . 770 ah-2 MR .NI::ARY : takinq off 1\nother Horl!d and T!'e Edge of. Niqht . MR . IIOOI">ER: To think about th e ot he r group besi<Jes the fishermen und the f;:~rmers who were started in the b<lck in this l'lu<lqct, T woul <l ! ike to talk about the VCJcationnl school students who went into the - MR . NEARY : ---- -- Now you are into an area of incompetence . MR . ~~ARREN : Are they not giving them free tuition or something like that? MR .W/\RRI!:N: Oh , yes , Mr .

Speaker, they qave them Cree tuition,buL if the hon . member had been in Lhc llousv yt•::l,:rd.ay I <·ert;tin ly blew .ap<.lrt LlwL particular - MR . NFJ\RY: Education nmv is for the ~1 it~ . fL is ~ack to those days .:tqain . MR .IvARREN : t sec. MR .lJODDER: Out , Mr. Spea ker , I \vould like to recommend to membcrs ,and T am sure members have not read it nnt1 u· any member on the other side would like to borrow my copy 1 r.ertainly would let him Xerox it . I will not let him have it because I may not get it back . But , Mr . Speaker , if any member on the other side of the House would Like to - MR .

NEl\HY : Oh, you arc in the llouse today for half nn hour,are you? Mil .IIOI)I)C:I~: - WOIII tl 1 ike to SeC' il VC)lumc- MR. NEl\RY: is that the kind oE attendance we have in this !louse , the half-hour day? The hal(-hour a day Premier . HR . IIODDER : The Premie r \~as not here yesterday . 'I G3 ?

June 1,1982 Tape No. 770 u.h-3 MR. NEARY: He spends half an hour a day in his seat and then he has the ~all to critize the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts). ·1 G 3 -r

June 1, 1982 Tape 771 EC - 1 MR. IIODDER: I might add to the Premier that Beauchesne does say that it is unparliamentary to refer to the absence or presence of a member, particularly when the Premier was not in the House himself yesterday, and he just drops in and drops out. MR. NEl\RY: lie does not know the difference. He is completely ignorant of the rules. He spends a half an hour a day here, and sometimes lesi" than that. MR. HODDER: He is only here when he wants to get hi~ old anti-Confederate bile out. MR. NEARY: One half hour every day and then he has the qall to criticize some other member. MR.

HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I want to refer members to a report which was published about six months ago, which was entitled, Work for Tomorrow. This was a federal task force that travelled the country. I happen to have something to do with that particular task force because I presented a brief to it, and perhaps some other hon. members in the House presented a brief as well. I know that there were a number of briefs on the West Coast that were presented. I do not think the Minister of Health (Mr. House) presented a brief to them, but the Abitibi-Price group presented a brief, there were the Bay St.

George Community College, the vocational schools, they went right across this Province, Mr. Speaker. And one of the recommendations from right across the Province - and these briefs are available. Any member of this House of Assembly, I am quite sure, who would con~act the chairman of the task force in Ottawa and indicate to him which he wants - and in the back of the report are all the briefs. They come from every

section of this Province, because ·1 G 3~~

June 1, 1982 Tape 771 EC - 2 MR . HODDER : the task force travelled everywhere . Hr . Spenker ~ one of the recommendations that came from educators - MR . NEARY : Th ere he goes, finished now for today, 'lOt his half hour punched in the House . MR. HODDER : He is finished for the day, Nr . Speaker . He is gone back down to his office and out to t-lount Scio Hous e - I-1R . NEARY : 1\ half- an-hour Premier . ~1R . HODDER : - to sit ~ack and enjoy his - SOME HON • t'.Er-'.SERS : Oh, oh ! MR . HODDER : Mr . Sp(: .:tkcr, this parLi.cular task force - SOf.1E HON • to!:EMBERS : Oh, oh ! MR.

HODDER : Nould my o"'m colleagues let me get on ~ith what I am trying to say? MR . SPEAKE~ (Aylward) : Order, please ! MR . HODDER : Mr . Spcak<!r I this task force visited every p.1rL or Lhi:; l•t·uvj nee ancl rccoi vcd briefs frorr just about every ecluciltional group in the Province .

And one of the things that the briefs asked for in this task force rc>ort - no ... · remember it was a federal task force report, so th<:tt it is not mentioned in the repcrt itself , but if members were to get the report and look at the briefs that were presented from Newfoundland 1 <:~nd perhaps one of Lhc ! members on the other side \-tere to summarize, you would find that right across the Provincc 1 from St . 1\nthony to St . John 's to Stephenville and in Labrador,was the request that the $100 tuition fee - or not tuition fcc, but the $100 qrant per month Hhjch 1 6 3 ~·

June 1, 1982 Tape No. 772 so - 1 MR. HODDER: the $100 grant per month which vocational school students were getting be raised, and that it be raised because it had not been raised since 1968. Now I woulJ like to say something about that task force report, Mr. Speaker, because the biggest concern of the task force was to obtain good accountability for some $600 million which is spent by the federal government 1 and that is the Department of Manpower and Immigration in their job creation programmes.

Now while it is the federal government that pays a large share of the bills for training in our vocational schools in the Province, they pay for the seats and they pay for the training , it is the provincial government - MR. !lOUSE: Manpower student: •; only . MR. HODDER: - Manpower students only, yes, the minister is right,but the majority of students are Manpower students,and the minister would also- SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. HODDER: - Mr. Speaker, the provincial students now will have to pay $800 a year; the Manpower students get in and they are being paid. Now what kind of a situation is that? MR.

WARREN: That is right. MR. HODDER: ThPy are being paid by Manpower. So now you have th0 inryui ty- th<~ minister just raised a point that I had not thought of- now you have an inequity of two people doing the same course, one who has a Manpower seat who gets his allowances paid for, his books paid for or he may be able to take that seat if he is directed by the Department of Manpower, may be able to take his seat and draw unemployment insurance,

whereas before you had him sitting next to a provincial student who is only getting $100 a month. Now, Mr. Speaker, you have that Manpower student sitting next to a provincial student who is trying to get ahead in the same way who will be paying $200 tuition per year 1 plus the fact he will not even be getting ·1 G 3 R

June 1, 1982 •rape No . 772 SD - 2 tol.R . !I ODDER : the S 1 00 a month which came to $900 a year before . So the inequality between the federal and the provincial st;11clent in our vocation al schools is far greater than over before . And r am glad the minister opened his mouth because I had not thought of that . I had not thouqht of that and t must compliment the minister . NR. WARREN : thouqht he had . MR . NET\RY : lie has more brains th..tn \oJe 'l'h<~ hC'i•;ht or stupidity . MR . HODDER : hnyhow, Mr.

Speaker, it was clear during the course of the hearinqs that the task force had throughout this Province,that in Ne\vfoundlnnd the instructors at the trades schools,and thes e were from briers from instructors at trades sch ools, they were very concerned not only 111ith the poor quality and in many cases 1G37

...... June 1, 1982 Tilpc 773 PK - 1 MR. HODDER; the outdated tcachinq c~quipment which they had, not only with the poor quality of the teaching equipment, I am told that the Fisheries Colleqe still uses tubes in their equipment, Mr. Speaker,

whereas when they <JO out the type of equipment uses transistors. We arc still back in the 1950s, Mr. Speaker. DR. COLLINS: The federal qovernment will cnme alonq one of these days with a new institution. MH.. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, the other - now - lJ.l<. COLLINS: Use your influence with your friends in Ottawa. MR. HODDER : When the minister gets up will he tell the House how much money is being spent in the vocutionul schools by the federul qovernment and how much by the provincial governm ent? MR. NEARY: Hight on. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

HODDER: And would he also tell,me 1 when he stands on his feet to close the debate, and I suppose he ~ docs- 1 do not know i r he: tlocs or not -bnt sometime: durinq this sittinq of the llouse would he tell me about the programmes that huve been designed by the Depurtment of Vocational Education where they have no lonyer students~ And would he tell me about the programmes which we have in our schools which are designed by the Province and are the total responsibilty of the Province for which no jobs are available when these people get outi Because that situation has not chanqed. " MR. Wl\RRF.N: Ha, ha! MR.

HODDER: nut, Mr. Speaker, when that task force went throughout the Province looking into this matter, again I ask members on the other side to read the briefs that came in from this Province, the teachers themselves were concerned because they are not even keeping up,and this certainly is not a federal responsibilit), they are not keeping up with "16 3d

June l, 1982 Tape 773 PK - 2 MR . HODDE R: Lhc latest technological trends . '!'hey cannot get aw ay as often - there are some provisjons for som e peop le to get away, buL Lhcy cannot qct away to upgrade themselves either in industry or by goinq back to school to upqt:a<.le themselves . Jl.ncJ they themselves are askin q , and perhaps this government.if they are tryint] to improve the education calibre of this Province, to lry to improve Lhc pr<.)dll::Livity or lhc Province, llwn, Mr . Sf•('ilkt.lf" , pc:!rha)')s WC' should sL<~rl: lookinq nt ju:;l· wh ,lL is happcninq in our vocal ional sc..:!lool ~; . Mr .

Speaker, the provincial government docs not have any provisjon to ullow the puoplu to go out from time ~o time to upqrade the ir skill s,eithcr by going back to school or CJOinq out into industry to sec what the latest trends in industry arc ~no what th~ lntcst technologies are . Mr . Speaker, the equlpmcnL in our schools ic: outdated and the instructors,through no foull of their own,are falling behind the times . Now , Nr. Speaker, I hav e a recommendation for this House and for this f'rovincc r..,r the ~1inister of Education (Ms . Verqe) . My re-commendation, t-lr.

Speaker, is that oach rnembcr on Lhilt sid<· or tlw IIOU Sl' look ,,t the task force report by the federal <JOvcmmen l. 1 G 3 ~I

June l, 1982 Tape No. 774 MJ - l MR. J. IlODDER: Bec<J usc, Mr. Spe,lker, that tnsk force was comp] eted by federal M. P. 's of all parties. 1-Jhen I appeared before that task force, there were members from the Progressive Conservative Party, there were members from the NDP l'urty. It WilS an all~party effort. It was not something from the Federal Liberals. It was an all-party effort and I wouJd advise members to read it and for the minister to make up hj s mind 1vhether it is a political document or not. l>ut what the report did - MR. !lOUSE: I know what the result was. MR. HODDER: Yes.

But what the report did, it looked at education from the Federal point of view. The thing of which I am talkinq- and of course that was their mandate- the things of which I am talking arLthe reports that went in which are availab]e to the minister, the Minister of Education (Ms. L. Verqc), if she ever come into the House, Mr. Speaker, to read those reports ,1ncl see what the ~ducators were snyinq across the Provinct'· llcc,ltLSc', Mt-.

Spr•aker, the only wny wo arc goinCJ to have <l decent education sy"lem in our vocutional schools, in this Province-and I forget the day schools altogether now- the only way we are going to do it, and I will recommend -this to this House of Assembly, that the Province should form its own task force to dovetail with federal study.

Because if we are going to get the full picture 1 and we did not get the full picture from that study because it was a federal study done for federal purposes; t:he interesting part about the study was what came from the educators in this Province,and there was some thirty or forty briefs presented from all seqments of the educational community and from all segments of the business society. And, Mr. Speaker, what I am askinq this House is that we start doing somethinq concrete.

That we stop our fiqht, at least on this particular ground,and appoint a task force to look at the situation in this Province and 1 GIJ II

June 1, 1982 Tape No. 774 MJ - 2 MR. J. HODDER: in the vocational schools because, Mr. Speaker, I am tol<l now that there an.> courses which wi l1 be closed next year for lack of people, courses th~t were designcu recently. I am told as well thu.t the majority of our courses - I am not told I know, Mr. Speaker; anyone who wunts to cyo to Manpower and find out-and there are charts-and find out courses for which there are needs across the country and then look at the courses that we have in our vocutional schools, anyone can do it at a minute's notice.

No problem with research; any member of the press, any member of the flouse of 1\ssembly, any member who would like to can go down to Manpower ·16 4 I

:,1. June 1, 1982, Tape 775, Page l -- apb M.J{ . HODDER : and get the charts as to what jobs are most needed, then yo look at the courses which we are teaching in our vocational schoo Is and they '~ill find, Mr. Speaker, Lhat we are Lurniny out students in this Province for ~~hom there are no jobs . 1\nd we are wasting our money, because - MR. IIOUSE : ·--- l"!lich ones C\re t1anpower suprorting? 'l'hat is a question .r w'Ould like answered, which ones are ~anpower sup~orting? MR. HODDER: ----- -- Mr . Speaker , the programmes arc designed by the Province .

Well, my goodness , if they .:are not designed by the Province , what in 'Joodness l\nvc we •joL Lllis biq broad - where is the budg<'t so I can lisL out the number of people down in the Depu.t ment of Vocational and Technical Education? What arc they all doing down there, Mr. Speaker, if these courses are not being designed by the Province? Because there rnusL be 50 ,000 pe ople down in the Department of Technical and Vocational Education who are running around this Province designing programmes . And if I did not hear Lhc Minister of Education(Ms .

Verge) on her feet on numerous occasions here telling me about all the wonderful o(fshore courses that she is putting into the vocational schools , and the minister over there tries to tell me that these courses arc being designed by the federal government . No, Mr . Speaker, thcy~c being paid for by the federal government . MR . W~RREN : Th at is right , paid for. Riyh L on . Paid f.or . ~B. HOUSE .: Manpower only support certain courses , Lhcrc are others they will not support. 16 ~/ ..

June 1, 1982 , Tape 775, Page 2 -- apb MR . HODDER_: Mr . Spe,lkcr, one of the things, when the task force tr~vclled the province, they called for was the fact thaL they felt that this $100 a monLh a:lowance should be increased because it had not been changed for thirteen years anu Lhey s.:~w a decline. Now, Mr . Speaker , who arc we trying to get into che upgraruu1g school~ in Lhis Province, and who arc we Lrying to geL into the vocational schools? Now I know lhaL hon . mcmiJcrs m.ay have sons or dauqhtcrs who \vill go lo vm:;ttion.al schools, <tnd you wj 11 think that is f inc , that is gooc..l.

It. is not too lmd , if they decide to go that route, to the College of Trades and Technology that they pay $200 tuition fee .:~ncl they do not get the $100 and they can apply for their sLudent loans . But , Mr . Speaker, there 1 G ~ .~

June 1, 1982 'l'ape 776 EC - 1 MR. HODDER: a great many people in this Province who, I would hope, we are trying to encourage to get into the schools. And, Mr. Speaker, these people whose grades are low and whose finances are very low and who are on social assistance,or U.I.C. social assistance, Mr. Speaker, my job or the job of any manpower counsellor now,or any counsellor in the schools themselves, and there are few of them, the job of those counsellors to try to get people into those courses will be much more difficult now with that $100 gone, Mr. Speaker, and the knowledge that they must pay $200.

And I will tell you, Mr. Speaker, mark my words, watch the enrolments drop. They may not drop immediately but, Mr. Speaker, in the next session, in the next year, the Bay St. Gcor~e Community College enrolment will drop, the enrolments will drop in vocational schools across this Province. Mr.

Speaker, during the campaign a few weeks ago, Premier Peckford held news conferences on what he called his Economic Recovery programme. 1'his amounted to a number of already announced DREE agreements, a few loan guarantees and a number of political handouts that were already slated in the Capital Works budget for the new fiscal year. Again, Mr. Speaker, we see them trotted out as a new economic outlook in this Province. And if you look at the tables from the 4th of April, there is a list of transportation projects which are the DREE agreement projects signed in ~arr-~. AN HON. MEMBER: nhere are vour buddies? MR.

HODDER : That is fine, Mr. Speaker. They are out getting ready their speeches, Mr. Speaker . ·1 6 ~ 4

June 1, 1982 '!'ape 776 E!C - 2 • ~R . TOBIN : I hope t!~cy make more sense . MR . !IODDER : Mr . S~a~kcr, 1 just hope the hon . member from - where is it? Oown somewhere - Burin - Placentia West , is it? l do hope that when he gets up to speak thilt lw has sotncthin•J \vorthwhile to say . HR . I\I'EARY : Ti1ey arc so insiqnificant , the new members, they have not made .:~ny sho .. inq worthwhile CoMpletely _ insignificant . Nobody will remember who they are four yc.:~rs from now . '!'hey will not know who they arc . HR . 'I'OBIN: 'l'hl, .. l ,~ ·Jll rf'•m('mhPr 1 ,,.,,, 1 !"-lt~fly . Ml~ .

NEI\HY : Oh , thl.!y w Ll I remc..:mbc..: r me but they will not remember the hon . gentlemen . MR . HODDER : Mr . Spe<~ker , even the subsidized housing project, this is a federal/provincial cost sharing agreement on public housin<J , and ·that is an agreement , Mr . Speaker , that could have been in place lilst ~·all, this great ~>ubsidi ?.cd housin •J project , but instead of being in place last Vall, contrat·y to that and contrary to the wishes or the home builders in this Province , the tenders were not called until Spring .

I wonder why , Mr . 5pc<:tkcr? the y were not called until Sprinq? wonder why But this was part of the so -c al led early tc ndcriny proyramme , ·1 G ~ .•

::. June 1, 1982, Tape 777, Page 1 -- apb MR. IIODDI':R : and it actually ended up as a bunch of pn'-clcction qoodies that had been delayed so that they could be used for election fodder, and now we see them trotted out in the budget again as another thing to stimulate the economy. Those monies, Mr. Speaker, they monies for land development and building lot subsidie~. were of very dubious value. The money for the Mount Pearl sewer and traffic exchange were part of the year's capital works budget, and the land development is part of the CMHC scheme. The buidling subsidies, Mr.

Speaker, are actually a decline in the price of the lots. They are a decline in the price of the lots which were overvalued. Because their value has declined, the government have been having a hard time trying to sell them. MR. NEARY: That is terrible. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, these lots, some of them have been in the Province three or four years. I think some of them were built around 1975 and they have been sitting there, and the Premier says he is going to create 6,000 jobs by lowering these lots to close to the rate that they should have been. Mr. Speaker, how much did we lose?

How much did the Province lose by having these things sitting there for four or five years? MR. NEARY: He cannot appoint 6, 000 parliamentary assistants, can he? That is the only way you will get jobs, 6,000 parliamentary assistants. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, we have subdivisions like that in Stephenville, we have them in Gander - MR. TOBIN: Marystown. MR. HODDER: Marystown, the hon. said. Has either one been used in Marystown yet? "16 4 6

June 1, 1982, Tape 777, P.::tgc 2 -- apb MR . TOBIN : They are starting (inaudible) govern ment policy. MR . HODDER : ------- Oh, I sec . Very good, after five years. But in eighteen locations across the Pro vince , they have been sitting there empty because of the hiqh cost of buHdi ncJ .1nd indus I ri ,11 r<~ L<~s , ;.1s well as the overpricing, Mr. Speaker , of many of tho lots . The the Premier says that this will create 1,000 jobs . Mr . Speuker, they will only create 1,000 iobs if the people buy the lots . MR. NEI\HY: And the.• mombcr for •rwil linqate(Mrs .

Held) w<:~nts L<> d<l ilWi1Y wilh Ct1notd<.1 \.,rork~; . MR. HODDER : And 1 will tell you, Mr. Speaker, in many, many of those cases people will not move into those areas , ho\>r ever well services, because they were ill-conceived, ill-planned and in the wrong places. NO\oJ som e of the lots - MR. NEARY : ~o away with Canuda Works . Put all the people on the dole . Put them all on the dole, according to the member for Twillingate . Put all Newfoundlanders, and put her constituents on the dole . MR. HODDER : Mr .

Speaker, it is really a pleasure for me to be speaking in Lhis debate on Lhis side of the ilouse on a budget brought down by the hon . gentleman from St. John 's South(Dr . C<lllins) . 'I G ~I

June 1, 1982 'rape 778 PK - 1 MH . IIODUI ·: H : Yoll ktlOW , f h,lVC' <tllo~,tys h:ld high reqard for ti1e minister because I think he is a man of abiLity and I think he is a man who has sacri ficod a lucrative Cilreer and a man oC qrcat integrity. But, Mr . Speaker, the qood doctor has somehow lost touch . And in this budget he used a meat cleaver rather thah his scalry~l. M.H . STAGG: llo"' do vou spell that? MR . IIODDER : t>lr . Speaker, the member for Stephenville (l> tr . Stagg) just returned to the House . MR . NEARY : MR . IIODDER : MR . NR/\RY : Yes . ~sent all day . Absent all day .

We o~re qoinq to slart commenting on absent members now. 'l'hc hon . Premier started - Ml( . SPEJ\KEH (1\vhlard) : --- ·------ --. ~---- Order , please : MR . NEARY : - it . Now we are going to keep a daily attendance . MR . S J)F.J\ Kr.:'l: Order , please ~ ---- ---- SOMI·l liON . r ol :~m GRS : 011, oh ! NR . NEARY : L.spccially the member for Port de Grave '('Nr . Reid) . MR . HODDER : Nevertheless , Nr . Speaker , I have known the Minister of Finance (Dr . Collins) ; the memb er for St . John 's South,sincc he came to this nouse . I have known him for a lonq time - J\N BON .

MEM!3P.R : r have the (inaudible) . MR . NEARY : Ne have got the record too . MR . HODDER : - bul I am astonished, Mr . Speaker, I am astonished by Lhc kind of lanquaqe used in this budget speech . ·•r . S•>caker, •.o~h i le lip service is beinq qivcm in this llutlqet ~;oecch to bcinq Canadians, there is more ·1 G 4 rt

.rune J, 191!2 'l'.apu 778 PK - 2 MIL HOD DER : anti -Ca nadian rhetoric in it than is good for th e Pr ovince . Of co urse , n o doubt , Mr . Speaker , that the anti -Canadian rhetcric in the Budget Speech was fueled by the man ~..rho probably sometimes. rarely sits across from me Rene Peckford - AN liON . MEZ.lBER : lie is qone . MR . HODDER : - Rene I'<.!Ck ford . I'm . \~ARRBN : llunu . Herw . MR . NE ARY: Do you meun we have t\oJO in ~anada? t>tR . WARREN : ------ Levesque is a separatist , is he not? t-IR . HODDER : Mr .

Sp~aker , what he has ·been trying to do is to co ver up his own mistakes and now the Finan ce Minister (Dr . Collins) is usinq the s.:~mc k inJ ol rhetor ic Lo cover up his railings in tryillcJ to put Loc,cthcr a budqet . MR . NEARY : At least Rene is colourful . MR . HO DDER : You know , f.lr . Speaker , who was it? Was it Samuel John ston , Mr . Speaker? Samuel Johnston ,I believe • said that- I bel ieve it was Samuel Johnston-said thuL •ratrio t- ism is the last refuge of a scounurcl ! MR . Nr.ARY : - of a scounclrt•I . MR . IJOL>DEH : l>c I lcvc t lt.tL w.a:: S..tmuc I ,John!i Lon , Mr . Speaker. MR .

STAGG : ------ I nrobablv ~wid thilt . MR . NEARY : Ves, vou <lid, bul you were <mly quoting HR . HOD DER : 1-lr. Speaker, l t is a sad d.:ly for the people of Newfound:and and Labrador when the Pinance Minister '1(}~·1

June 1, 1982 Tape No . 779 so - 1 f-1R . HODDER : cannot teU it like it is on th<· st;"'l\. e or the cconomy,.:md he tlicl not tC'l J it like iL ls on Lh<: sL<lLC of the economy in this UudiJI .•t. Mr· . SpC <lkt•r , I do know th<:tl .Jo hn 1·' . Kcnnccly, ,)ftcr the nay of Piqs Ciasco, said that victory has a thousand fathers but defeat is an orphan . Obviou sly , Mr .

Speaker , the Mini::>ter· of J•'lnance , the rrcmic:-r and all his henchmen did not have the quts to tell the J>cople what the Budget really meant for them despite the enormous mandate which they received on Apri l Cit h. 1\n<l they arc still , ~lr . Speaker , shiftjncJ the blame . nut, Mr . Speaker, you know, somebody , I bc-licv<' it toJas 1\l>raham Linco ln, snid that you can fool some of Lhc pcopJc all of the time but you cannot fool .11 I l.lw Jli !O p I<' 1:111 of' ll11• Lime . T I is il qood thi nq , l'tr . Sp<'·tkl'l ', 1 h:•L you h.1V<' nvt•r hr:rc- ou Lh is sid<' of thC' ll()u:-:t• a band or men - MR .

NE:l\RY : Deuicalecl . MR . HODDER : - dedicated to keeping this government honest - SO~lE liON . MEMBERS : Hear , hear . MR . NJ;:li.RY : If we could only get a chance , if WC' could only qct them to accomodate us on these committees . AN I JON . f.ti!:MnF:R : You <lid not attend last vear . MR . NEl\RY : ---- I beg your pardo n? -~ · TOUJN : It is not our fault there are not enouah of you over there . MR . HODDER : nut, Mr . Speaker, despite the Alice in Wo nderlu nd - HR . NEAR'l : Oh, th~t is Lhc answer, is it ? rs that the government policy? l\N liON . MEMBER : Arc vou qoinq to vote for the budqet? MR.

HODDER : Am 1 qoin'1 to vote for 1.rhat? AN liON . MEI-IDER : The budget . I G I~,,

June 1, 1982 'l'ape No . 779 MR . HODDER : 'l'hc Budget . MR . NEARY : Is that the philosophy now? MR . HODDER : Mr. Speaker, there is not one thing in this budget I cou ld vote for MR . NEARY : llrr;"tiiSO the people voted a certain way now you punish them . Is that the ohilosoohv no"'?You ride roughshod over them n01.,, th.:.tt is t.ho ~~ il n~~ hy, is it? MR . TOBIN: Who s~id th~t? nLl vnn? MR. NEARY : No, you are sayinq it . JC - 2 MR. WARREN : 13rinq it back inlo tho llousc ,boy, bring it back intc the House where it bclonqs . MR. NEARY : Brinq the estimates in here in the !louse . MR . HODDER: Yo<:;, Mr .

Spc.1kcr, I agr<•c with my collea gues . Yes , the only place to den 1 wi Lh tho cs l: inw Los , is in here in the !louse , in the llousc of Asscmbl y. MR . WARREN: Right on . MR HODDER : Not in the dungeons and board- rooms around this cjty . MR. ~IEJ\R'i : llcar, hour! Riqht· nn . SOME HON . MEMBERS : Oh , oh ! MR . HODDER : --- - Mr. Speak<.:r- ?>iR . DINN : Th~r~ wns 18 of you hear last year and vou did not attend th~ '"' · MR . HODDER : Mr . Speaker , if there is one member on the other side that I would - Mr . Speaker, I am never goinq to ge:: through this speech , you know that MR .

NEARY : Take your time . ~~ke your time , Jim . 'l'ake your time. MR . HODDER : Mr . Speaker, I may be here for a week if this kc~ps up . Especially if the Minister of Labour an<.l MilnlJOWer (Mr . J. Dinn) ,t~h o should h,tvt: hc1 .'ll flung out of the Cabinet last yc.:lr by the Premier , und 1G5r

June 1, 1982 MR . llODDER : Tape 779 JC - 3 who '"as not flung out of the Cabinet by the Pn .lmicr , just as the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morqnn) ;mel , t·1r. Sp~akcr , \.Jho now , who now has to qo ancl yr apple wjth nl I th~ public unions in this Province . llecause l)r the inflamatory excerise of this budqet , and who the unions had no respect for , Mr . Speaker , who have demanded his resi~nation , union after unio n- MR . NEAR'l : MR. DI NN: MR . IIOr>DBR : well , because Riqht on right on . Tomorro w. \\fell , you had better speak .165)

June 1 1 1982 'l';tpc No . 780 ~I..T - 1 MR . J . HODDER : you nre qoinq to huve to do o lot of convincing to convince them that - R. J . DINN : ------ - Come over anu listen . MR . HODDER : Oh1 I micrht: take the Minister up on that . Mr . Speaker, despite the 1\licc in Wonderl•nd nature of this budqct w~ arc qoinq to try and iniect s<>mr. r~.:llity into the l'-linislo•r nf l"in.Jnt: <.·'~• (llr . . 1. Coli in:>) warped excerisc in budqct m.:~kinq . t-1r . Spe<:~ker, look .. ,t some of the highlights of this budqct . T have here 1 Mr .

Speaker I anybody who wants to look at their l.ludqct 1 the h ighliqhts . lludget 1ti9hlights 1982 . MR . G . WI\RREN: one 1iS it? MIL IIOOIJRR : Sock it to the people unother YC's . It is sock it to the · J><Wp l e . Cove rnmcnt is projcctinq ~.:urrent account surplus in 1982 of ~1 .406,000 wit~ current account expenditures forcasted nt $1,001J 17IIJ ,71 ·· Tthink 1 run i1 thousand off there . 1\nyhO\vl /~r . Spc:akc ~r 1 th<~t currenL .:tccount surplus is due to extra torrowing . AN liON . MEM13ER : Uecausc of ( i.n<:~udiblel . lo1R . S . NEI\RY: Piqures clo not 1 i•• out liars do figure. MR .

IIODDF:R: 'rhc next on<', total capital expenditures for 1982 -831 I am reading the qovernment 's budqet n0 1v. Total capital cxpenc.liturcs for 1982 -SJ arc fon•(:usLc<l ilt. $2!>3 1670,000 w:Lth relate<.! revenues or $8010161000 . Mr . Speaker, t:h•lt leaves a S 1 75 1654,000 shortfall . Mr . Speaker 1 the combined imp<:~ct of the ornvincial r:ublic .investment and f in<1nci dl support of all forms by qovcrnment •m<l iLs aqcnc i <'S wi 1 I benefit ., G j .,

June 1, 1982 Tape No . 780 MJ - 2 HR . J . 110f1DER : thu PrqvinC <!' s economy to extenu to almost s:.oo million i.n 1982 . 'rhe c [feet of this stimulus will be mot·u pronounced in the construction and fishery sectors . Mr. Speaker , that was the capital \oJorks budget dressed up . Mr. Speaker , the ne:<t one ; A total of $47 million has been provided for capital expenditures on ovcral1 cos ts nf builclinq s .1n<l <.!quipment in schools . 11r . Speaker , that ~tas rnnney u 1 n!<tdy pI ann()u .1ntl, Mr . Speaker , it still is nnt goin<J to be enou<rh . 1\nd there is another question too , Mr .

Speaker , on that $2 .5 million [Qr assistinq of school boards . 1 tvould 1 ike ror someone wh en they stand and speak on the bu (kret. and I hope every member over on tha .t side of the llouse will speak on thj s budqct because they have got a lot to answer for, ,.,ill tell me - MR . NEl\RY : - - - 'I'hey certainly have. MR . HODDER : '"ill tell me if this money is aready spent or what? !md 1 have another question , that brings me to another point. 1 undcr.stand that every school board in this Province, except one , except for one school board is in (inancinl difficulty . AN liON.

MI::MUER: Yes, that is right . 1654

.Jun0 1., 1982 'l'~pc 78 1 I·:C - 1 ~R . HODDER : lo\r . Speaker , what will $2 .5 million do? Hill it. just l.>ilil oul the Vineland School Board? ~lR . NEARY : No . ~- HODDER : Will jt bail out two school boards? MR . NEi\RY : No. MR . JIODDRH : Hr . Spt:<tkl~r, wi .ll it l,,,jJ nut three schoo: boards"? HR. NEi\RY : No . MR . HODDER : loJhat abo~1t , t~r . Speaker , the Bay of Islands Integrated School Ooard, the one I used to work for? ~ - Speaker , that is the onl.y financially so]vtmt school board in the J•rov.int:f..•. NO\ol , t-1r .

Spo<:~kur , how will that particular schoo 1 l.>o•trd fc<~l whon they sec that there arc other school boards ncro~s the Province who have gone down the drain? lolill they not say, 'We can do nothinq but be bailed out? \vhatever ~.,re do we \dll be bailed out? • Is this what the lJOVcrnment has now toJu school l.>o;•r<ls? \vhy did not the government come! oul anJ s.1y wit i ch school hoards they were bail in< ; out? HR. NEARY : Man-fashion . HR . HODDER: Man-fashion, and tell us \o~hich school boards they were bail i.n~1 out .

Because no 1v the gover nm ent have left the impression , they have left the impression that thuy ho~vu i.l IJi•J fund for all the school boards in LllC' l'rovi nee . ~·Jel l. , they all need money, Mr . Spcuko r, c•very s inc; 1 c one of them except for one . And wher e ilre you bailinq them out , and which ones·,• 'l'cll us, Mr . Speaker - !•iR . !~l:.l'.RY : '1'110 and one-hal r million dollars is a joke . ·1 G 5:-.

,June L, I 982 'J'<Jpe No. 781 EC - 2 MH. llODDm"l: - when you st.:md to speak. Ml<. NJ•:i\ l<Y: 'l'wo anr..l-a-half milLion dollars, huh. Two and one-half million dollars is a joke. MR. IIODDER: Two and one-half million dollars is a joke, Mr. Speaker. I would suggest - DR. COLLINS: I would never think that two and one-half million dollars was a joke. ME. NEARY: Do you know, how much you are spending on - MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I would suggest - MH. NEARY: Do you know how much you sDent on jails in the last four years? Ml<. Wl\EHEN: •rJwt is right. MH.

NEARY: $13 million dollars on jails and court houses in the last four years. MR. WARREN: Is that a joke? Is that a joke? MH. NEARY: And closing down hospital beds. IUl.. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would suggest that, that two and one-half million dollars has already been spent, that the school board has been bailed out, or the school boards have been uailcd out, and it is pushed in the budget wi~1 the indication that this is for all school boards in the Province. We will wait and see, when they line up with their hands out, Mr. Speaker, because there arc a lot of them. MR. WARREN: 'rhat is right. ME.

IIODDER: And there is only one that is financially solvent and if I were a member of that school board I would be upset because - perhaps we should give money to school boards who maintain a good fiscal policy within their board. MR. WARREN: Ask the minister did he consider the $5 million dollars that George Baker brought down to his department the other day, too, federal money, $5 million dollars. Mll.. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, reading from the governments own budget highlights - 'Governments has provided $2,100,000 for the <lcquisit.ion of land to finalize planninq for a 1 G:.n;

June 1, 1982 Tape 781 EC - 3 MR. HODDER : new campus.' I understand, Mr . Speaker, that that is Pippy Park, that we arc talking about here. And that two and one-half rnjllion dollars will be going to buy some homes .:.md I do not know what. Perhaps when one of the people stand up - but, ~1r. Speaker, never forget that that fisheries - MR. WARREN: Watch out boy. MR. HODDER: -that, that fisheries colleqc will be built throu=Jh federal money. t;;vcn thouqh - SOME liON. MEMBERS: ncar, hear! 1 G j I

June l, 1982, 'l'.:tpc 782 , l'uyc l -- olpb t-1R . IIODDF.R: ---- ··-- - - Lhc minister , when he ;:~nuolltH..:0d ll in his lwd <Jc'l , Lollk u bac:khanclcd !=ilup at the federal government . MR. WARREN: S.fl~l_!:: HON..: _ MEf.ID§_R§.:_ ~11000_!::_!{_: Hear, hear ! Oh, no! It will be built with federal money . Oh , no! This crowd over here could not rals~ two cents to rub togcLhcr . tom . NEARY : -·-·---- lvhich is coming first, tho Plsheries College or the polytech? tl!l_. . !19!?!?!-:tl _: I will not go Lhrough lhc next one , Mr. Speaker, bcciluse I have already dwelt on it , tho $200 tuition fee, and the cutting out in Lhc nlncLcen vocatJnnal schools and the vocational !-a;h<

H) i !>l.u<.l<.!llls ·in lllis Province . Mr . Speaker, an amount of SL.!:i rnill.icm h,u; been provided for inccnbvcs to bus.inesses lvhere manuf<.H.:turing equipment - thut is a drop in Lhc bucket , Mr. Speaker . 'fhat will not eve n sturt to stimulate the economy in this Province . Now , I will come to a qood ono, Mr.

Spcukcr, one of the few good things that I have seen in the budget . ' l'he government is lnl roclul'in<J u pr0qrwnunc- which lvill.,on an individual l;asis,consider opplicutions from small businesses for exemption from retail sales tax for capital investment in machinery and equipment 1vhen local employment is increased and goods are locally manufactured .' Good , Mr. Speaker, a good measure . A good measure, something t can agree '~i th you on . N01~ , I may wi thdra"' those comments . You know, we have to see what the criteria are . MR . NEARY: ·rhere may be too much politics .involved there . ·1 G J rl

June 1, 19 82, T~pc 782 , Page 2 -- apb ~1R . HODDER : The type of politics that are involved and the type of criteria that will be used. t-'!R . NEARY : Right ! The guidelines . ~1R . IIODDER: Mr . Speaker, again on the Budget Highlights, and one I will not bother to refer to , where we have tnken the ret.1i t s.tles l:'ax from the sawmill operul:Ors f\>r c.1pitol t•qu ipmr·nl .1nd then stuck them with three times the stumpaqc fees . That, Mr . Speaker, was a ba ckward trend and the retail sates tax \.;ill , particularly - MR . DOYLE : (!niludible) . MR .

NE/\RY : Co oul., l.>oy , and geL your crub licence Cor Bell Tstan<l . NR . DOYL£ : (lnaudihlc) ----· -- NR . NEAR~_: You did not have th~ guts , the courage . SON£ HON • !>\EMBERS : Oh, oh ! l-iR . NEARY : You qot it all right, you got it right up your - the fcC.:ernl l-4inlsLcr of Fi siH·lics . ~~ - HOIJDl~R_: And l.hl'n wv come t<) , 'Effective May lsl, 1982 , nn uvcragL· incrc.1se of 10 per cent will be applied to public service pensions '. Mr . Speaker. that is not even as high ~s the rJtc of inflati on. L:ffectivc M~y lst . sod,, I .t:;sisLanc•· r.•tc•s wlll go up .

That is not <ts hiqh as LhL' ri.ltu of. inflation . lt means a decrease in rcul term:; . Mr . Speaker , I noti cc here .~s woll ,t~at there is compl~Lion of plJnning anu a start on construction of the new hospital at Clarenv illc . Mr . Speaker, that is in this budget , completion of planning and start of c:onslruction of the new hospital at Clarcnvillc . It is in this buuqet . And do you kno"N somet:hinq, t-1r . Spcakt·r·? r t wus in last year 's budgeL too. ., G j .,

June l, 1982, Tape 782, Page 3 -- apb Ml<. W/\I{RJ·:N: Yt'S. MJ{. IIO!)OER: The hospital was promised last year, in las