Volume 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SEVENTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st. Session VERBATIM REPORT WEDNESDAY, MAY 12, 1976 Number 62 SPEAKER; T.HE HONOURABLE GERALD RYAN OTTENHEIMER

!fay 12, 1976 Tape 2626 PK - 1 TI1e House met at 3:00P.M. c1r. Speaker in the Chair. HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I have been informed that Hayor Edwards of Grand Falls and some of his colleagues from the Council at Grand Falls are present in the gallery, and I Imo~• all hon. members join me in welcoming them to the House of Assembly. SO!'ffi RON. l1EHBERS: Hear, hear! PRESENTING PETITIONS HR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Naskaupi. l!R. J. GOUDIE: }lr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of 258 reddents of Happy Valley-Goose Bay - North \Vest River. The prayer of the petition, Hr.

Speaker, is short. It states that when the hospital, meaning the Paddon Hemorial Hospital, the facilities offered by that hospital are relocated to the USAF building at Goose Bay, that the Paddon }ferwrial Hospital should be used for a senior citizens home for all Labrador residents. I might add, Mr.

Speaker, in supporting the prayer of this petition that at the present, at least to the best of my knowledge, there is no senior citizens home in Labrador, and senior citizens from all over Labrador if they \dsh to or if they need to take advantage of the facilities and treatment and care that a senior citizens home offers have to travel to some part of the Island. I support these 258 petitioners, Hr. Speaker, and ask that it be plnced on the table of the House of Assembly and referred to the department to which it relates. SOME• liON. ME~ERS: H ., I .. ear, near. l!R. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Eagle River.

NR. I. STRACHAN: Hr. Speaker, in supporting the prayer of the petition I would like to point out that the Paddon Memorial Hospital as they call it will not be the Paddon Memorial Hospital any longer. In a month's time I believe 7 the whole facilities will be moved to the Helville Hospital as the new name of the USAF Hospital is going to be called. .7446

May 12, 1976 Tape 2626 PK - 2 Mr. Strachan: There is a considerable concern in the Happy Valley­ Goose Bay area and on the coastal areas as well concerning the move from the Paddon Memorial Uosp*t~l partly because many of the people feel that the move was done without consultation of the Health Committee which was set up in Happy Valley-Goose Bay,- and without any real consultation with the Council of Happy Valley-Goose Bay.

But our real concerns are !;hat the Labrador Coast, the people from the Labrador Coast who are moved into the central area for medical treatment often cannot get even minor surgery regardless of major surgery done in Labrador and must be flown out to St. Anthony for treatment at a fairly high cost and are often removed from their homes and from contact l.:ith their friends for long periods of time. Our concern now is that the Melville Hospital should or maybe will satisfy some of the needs of Labrador. But there is a great need for the Paddon ~1emorial Hospital to be changed into another kind of facilit y .

We have many people on the Coast v1\10 are in need of care in wheelchairs or invalids who are shut up for long periods of time partly because the Coastal life is a very active life, a life of which outdoors in !.'inter one cannot move unless one is fairl y physically fit• And there iR a great deal of concern that if the move is going to take place and the Paddon Henorial Hospital is going to be emrtic:d that something should be done tdth the facility,..

There is also concern at the moment I believ e that there were rumours that much of the equipment in the hospital was either going to be moved out or sold, and there was concern that if the Paddon Memorial Hospital was changed into another-kind of facility that other equipment would have to be bought and placed back into it. So I support the prayer of the petition, and I would ask that the whole situation concerning the needs of a hospital in Labrador to serve the Labrador people, not only of the Coast, but of the centre and the \-lest should be looked into. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Bay of Islands. MR.

L. l.'OODRO\~: I would like to support the petition of my han. colleague. I realize that this government have done a great deal for 7~4.7

May 12, 1976 Tape 2626 PK - 3 lir. Woodrow: senior citizens homes. llut however there is a lot to be done, and 1 know that they have plans to do more . However I have received from roy own district many requests and 1 have contacted all of the homes like, for example, the Royl es Home, St. Luke's Home, St. Patrick ' s Mercy Home, the Inte r faith Rome in Corner Brook, and they all have a very long waiting lis t. What we have of cour se are two types of people to think about .

We have Lo think about those who cannot care for themselves, geriatrics and the like , and we have to think of elderly people in good health . Fi r st of all I am happy to say that , for example, in Corner Brook I hope that the government will see their '•'BY clear to get on with the work of renovating the old llestern Hemorial Hospital which will certainly help the \lest Coast in general. 7~ 4 8

Hay 12, 1976, Tape 2627, Page 1 -- apb MR. WOODROW:_ What I think we should look to, is not the real hig homes anymore. I think we should look, for example, to small condominimums, places that can take maybe, ten to twelve people. Say an apartment that could look after ten or twelve or possibly ttrenty people. This would have the effect of keeping the elderly people in their own environment. I think this is terribly important. I believe they should have this in the evening of their lives.

I somehow feel that there is a greater need in places like Labrador for a type of home for senior citizens, and I want again to confirm the policy that 1 have been trying to confirm in this han. House of Assembly, and that is to say that we have to think of all the Province. He have to think of,not only the West coast, for example, or the F.ast coast,or the South coast, or Labrador, or the North coast, we have to think of all the Province. H~ever, to my mind this is a very important thing. Sometimes the elderly people are forgotten. I want to emphasize that we should not forget the elderly.

Once again I want to say that I know a lot has been done but a lot remains to be done. I am sure that the government in good time will look at this in the right liRht and, of course, in accordance with their means and get on lvith the job of helping more of our senior citizens. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Fogo. CAPT. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, I certainly support the petition presented by the member for Naskaupi (Mr.

Goudie) 7 ttaving had the privilege of serving that district of Labrador North for fifteen years, and having had the privilege with the now member for Twillingate (Mr. Smalhvood) of helping to turn the sod for that hospital at Happy Valley, which I might add was a. very nice building. It provided a very badly needed service at that particular tiwe. However, it is surprising to me now that that hospital has outlived tts usefulness in such a short period of time, and the powers

May 12, 197(,, Tape 2627, Page 2 -- apb CAPT. WINSOR: to be see fit now to transfer or move the facilities of that hospital on to the American Base. I do not know whether this is acceptable to all the residents of Happy Valley, but I doubt very much if it is 100 per cent agreeable to move the facilities of that beautiful hospital from Happy Valley to Goose Bay. Raving said that, Mr. Speaker, and that having been decided upon, then I think of no other purpose more essP.ntial and more needed than a senior citizens home in that area. Because, Mr.

Speaker, I do not think there is a single senior citizens home in the whole of Labrador. And there is no place in the whole Province where there is one so badly needed. Anyone who has travelled the Labrador Coast many, many times, as I have, and I am sure the hon. the members for Naskaupi and Eagle River (Mr. Goudie and Mr. Strachan), can verify this 1 some people, and especially the elderly,are still living under very, very poor conditions.

They have reached the stage of life ~There they cannot or they are unable to look after themselves, and their families, in a great many cases, are unable to do so for the simple reason they do not have the accommodations in their homes whereby two families can live together. So the only salvation now is to provide them with a senior citizens home. And it should be provided in Labrador so that the citizens will be within that environment that they were brought up in and lived in all of their lives. I would certainly support that petition and commend the people who signed it. I would say, Mr.

Speaker, that this is one petition that should certainly get all of the sympathetic consideration that is possible from this hon. House. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

May 12, 1976 Tape no. 2628 Page 1 - mw MR. STRACHAN: Hr. Speaker, on a point of order. I do not know if it is quite a point of order, but I hear continually my colleague over here referred to as the member for Naskaupi and it is Naskaupi. I would like to remind the House it is the Naskaupi Indians which the district is named after, and it is 'r' rather than an 'o'. MR. SPEAKER.: I am sure ~on. ~embers will give way to the point of the hon. member. The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: ~tr. Speaker, I support the petition presented by the hon. member for Naskaupi (Mr.Goudie).

When I was Minister of Social Services and Rehabilitation for three and one-half years, Sir, many a conversation I had with Dr. Paddon in connection with the establishment of a senior citizens home in Labrador. My hon. former colleague the member for Fogo (Capt.

Winsor) points out rightly so that there is not one senior citizens home anywhere in Labrador and part of the master plan - because the formula under which all these senior citizens home ~re being constructed at the present time,the formula was worked out by the former administration, the formula actually -was worked out by my officials \<hen I was the .,inister- of that department, and that is the same formula that has been followed ever since and part of the master plan for the establishment of senior citizens homes was to establish two or three strategically located in Labrador, preferably somewhere in Northern Labrador and somewhere down ia Southern Labrador and, of course, we never got a chance to finish the p:r:ogramme that we had started.

There is no d.oubt about it, Ur. Speaker, the member for Fogo (Capt '.Jinsor) and the member for Naskaupi (Nr. Goudie) pointed out that the situation in Labrador is a unique situatio!l. ILey should have their own hospital facilities. They should have their own correctional institutes. They should have their own senior citizens home. ln just about every phase or aspect of public service that you can think of they should have their own in Labrador and not always have to look to the Island of Newfoundland. '7451

Hay 12,1976 Tape no. 2628 Page 2- mw Mr. Neary. So I support the prayer of the petition, Sir, and I think it is a good idea.

I do not know whether the appropriate authorities have had the building inspected by the fire commissioner and by the officials of the Department of Recreation and Rehabilitation to see if the building is suitable to be converted into a senior citizens home, because the standards for senior citizens homes are extremely high because of the fire hazard and because you have people in the home on a good many occasions who are immobilized and they have to be moved rather quickly in case of an emergency.

So I would advise the member to invite the fire commissioner and to invite the appropriate officials of the Department of Rehabilitation and Recreation to come down and inspect the building and if they pass it,then I see no reason at all why the government should not consider turning it into a senior citizens home, not necessarily for those people who are ambulatory, but for the kind of people that my hon. and dear friend from Bay of Islands(Mr. Woodrow) pointed out, people who cannot fend for themselves, people who go down. Because most people, Mr. Speaker, like to remain in their own homes as long as they can.

Newfoundlanders are like that. But once they go down all they need most of the time, Mr. Speaker, is tender loving care, personal care and nursing care.

And I do not know what the need, what the de~nd is in my hon. friend's part of the country, but I would certainly take a look at that too, because I know when I was Minister of Social Services that is where the biggest need existed, and that may be where the need is in the minister's district, but there also should be some ambulatory beds for people who are living in dilapidated homes, in low standard homes and so forth who in the twilight of their lives should live with a little bit of dignity and respect. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Are there any further petitions? 7452

May 12, 1976 Tape no. 2628 Page 3 - mw The han. House Leader. MR. WELLS: Mr. Speaker, on the petition presented by the han. member for Naskaupi (Mr. Goudie) there is no question, Mr. Speaker, that we support the prayer of the petition. The petition points out a grave need I believe in that area. There is no question that senior citizens homes are necessary. In some parts of Newfoundland there are now too nany homes for ambulatory care, but there is a grave need practically everywhere for homes that provide nursing care, and this I think is the need which has to be addressed in the immediate future.

But insofar as Labrador is concerned my understanding is, of course, what was said today is correct in that there are no old people's homes in Labrador. And obviously in a part of Newfoundland and Labrador of that size you hardly have to look any further than the statistic that there are no homes there to say ~hat obviously there is a need. Now the building which is being vacated shortly, the building which was the Paddon Memorial Hospital is a very fine building. I am sure that to convert it for this use would require some planning and some expenditure of money.

But I can only say this in response to the petition, Mr. Speaker, that if the people of the Goose Bay - Happy Valley and in fact the whole area, the people who would use such a home were to come to government with proposals bearing in mine the policies which the government has on old age homes, they would receive every careful and sympathetic consideration. 7453

!-lay 12, 1976 Tape No. 2629 NM- 1 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Conception Bay South. MR. NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, I be~ leave to present a petition on behalf of between 400 and 500 residents of Paradise concerning the cost of mobile home insurance rates.

What has happened, for anyone who has people iri their district where there are a number of mobile homeslas there is for example in mine, the insurance rates that are presently being charged are absolutely savage and it seems to be that these people would not take it upon themselves, and everyone there by the way signed the petition, that they would not p,o to this trouble and express this con~ern unless there was some real suspicion that the rates that are applied to mobile homes are not fair and equitable.

The situation in their pet:l.tion is that thev are concerned about the soaring insurance rates for mobile homes and the limited choice of companies that will insure them. They are now beseeching through me, the House of Assembly, and the department to which it relates, to give this matter urgent attention. As a matter of fact I would suggest to the Minister, perhaps of Consumer Affairs, that he might have his people look into the situation to see in fact just exactly is it as bad as they say it is and I say that it is, and what if anything we can do to assist them.

Because there is a feeling, and some people look down their noses at those who live in mobile homes, but there are many people who live in mobile homes, this is what they can afford, this is all they can afford, they cannot get land, and actually many of them are very, very - in fact they should no longer be called mobile homes in many instances because they are not really mobile. They are pUt in a position, pUt up on a basement of some kind or blocks and they are stationary.

So this is a very great burden that they have with other expenses that they have toda~ The insurance problem is a very, very serious one and all too often these people feel that those of us in the House of Assembly one, do not pay sufficient attention to petitions presented and two, that we do not seem to take very seriously some of the things that come before us. 7lt54

1>'-ay 12, 1976 Tape No. 2629 NM- 2 MR. NOLAN: So I am hoping, Mr. Speaker, that the members of the House of Assembly who have mobile homes, whether it be 100 or 1,000 in their district, will voice their opinion on this situation and relate what they have discovered from their conversations with their constituents in their districts, P~rhaps it is time we did take a look at the insurance industry to see just exactly what is the situation. In this world those that can least afford often time to protect themselves are the ones that are shafted.

Now what I am asking and what these people are asking in this petition today is one, are they getting a fair shake? Do you have the necessary competition within the insurance industry to provide the proper protection for them and I am asking the Minister of Consumer Affairs or any other minister for that matter that may be responsible or feel responsible or feel the urgeney to do something about this, to give it fair consideration. So, Mr. Speaker, I ask for your permission to table this petition and to have it presented to the department to which it relates. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for LaPoile. MR.

NEARY: Mr. Speaker, again I whole-heartedly support the prayer of the petition so ably presented by my good friend the member for Conception Bay South (Mr. Nolan) who was good enough the day before yesterday to take me on a tour of that part of his district. We were not planning a coup I can assure his colleagues. We were merely down on a tour of inspection of a part of the member's district which I thoroughly enjoyed. MR. DOODY: There are no basements in mobile homes. MR. NEARY: There are quite a few mobile homes. There are basements under some of these mobile homes, Sir, because I saw it with my own eyes.

There are quite a fFw of these mobile homes in my friend's district of Harbour Main, in the head of the Bay. MR. DOODY: They are built on the rocks. They are not down underground. 7ft 55

\ ~fay 12, 1976 Tape No. 2629 NM- 3 MR. NEARY: Up iP the head of the Bay there are probably more mobile homes per capita than in any other part of Newfoundland. Well, Sir, the last time I drove around fhe thing that struck me - MR. DOODY: That is when you made your tour before you decided not to run. SOME HON. ~ERS : Hear! Hear! 745fi

May 12, 1976 Tape 2630 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: The minister makes hls little smart aleck remarks ----- and then runs out of the House. If they did not have to gerrymander the districts, Sir, I would show the minister who was in command if he had left Bell Island the way it was. MR. DOODY: I remember Napoleon made some comment to like that. MR. NEARY: I managed to drag the minister over to Bell IslanG a few times recently. I went over and then he followed me over a couple of hours after when he heard I was over there, the first time since the election.

But, Sir, this is a very, very serious matter and these people who live 1n these mobile homes, Mr. Speaker, are paying through the nose for their insurance. And I must say, Sir, I have to give the Superintendent of Insurance in the minister's department a pat on the back because any time that I have had an insurance problem I have lJritten Hr. French and his assistant, I forget his assistant's name, I was talking to him this morning as a matter of fact on the phone, and they have always responded, I have always gotten an answer, and they have always investigated the case.

And I do hope that the minister will take the prayer of this petition 1 pass it over to his Superintendent of Insurance and have him investigate this. Because, Sir, you know, this whole matter of insurance in Newfoundland, in my opinion, needs to be looked at,at this particular moment. Because I had a case the other day of a well known gentleman who came to see me and told me that it was virtually impossible for him to get an insurance policy for his home which was a regular home, a normal home for less than $20,000 coverage.

In other word~ he could not cover his house for whatever he thought he could afford to cover it for. The minimum he could cover it for was $20,000. And if he put $2,000 on his house, if he put $24500, $10,000 on his house and it burned down and the house was worth $50,000 or $60,000 - MR. SMALIMOOD: Oh, oh! I am sorry. MR. NEARY: That is all right, Sir. - and the house burned down, Mr. Speaker, or blew dmm or anything happened to it, well all the fellow would get would be the $2,500 or the $10,000 whatever it was insured for. But the insurance companies have arbitrarily made a 7457

May 12, 1976 Tape 2630 PK - 2 Ur. Neary: decision that you cannot insure a house, you cannot cover a house for anything less than $20,000. And I think that is ridiculous. A man should be able to cover his house, immaterial of what the value of the house is, the man should be able to cover it for what he thinks he can pay for. And I would like for the minister to take a look at that. Bot this is a very, very serious matter, and the pt:ayer of the petition, Sir, is quite important to these people, well documented, well presented by the mPmber for Conception Bay South (Mr.

Nolan) and I do hope, Sir, that the member gets some results in behalf of his constitutents. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for the Bay of Island. MR. L. WOODROW: Mr. Speaker, I would like to support this petition for several reasons, and say one reason is because I consider the member from Conception Bay South as sincere and a man who tries to work hard and honestly for hjs constituents. That is one of the reasons.

Number b·ro is because I have in my district anywhere from 150 to 200 mobile homes as the Minister of Hunicipal Affairs and Housing knows, and also there is a proposal by the city of Corner Brook at the present time to select another rlace for such homes. Now the people living in those homes I do not think they are looked do~~ upon any more as being, you know, not on the same base with the person who lives, we say, in the ordinary home because I know in the trailer park over in Curling as it is referred to,there are .any retired people over there, many people in fact holding down good jobs.

There is another point about it also - it is amazing and there are so many things we have to look into in this House of Assembly, when people go to sell those homes, Mr. Speaker, they are charged 5 per cent by their landlord and 5 per cent by the real estate company. Now this is something.! do not know whether my hon. friend from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) knows this or not. MR. NEARY: When we get into the debates again I will get back to the mortgage companies and the real estates you need not worry about that. I am not finished with that yet. 7't58

May 12, 1976 Tape 2630 PK - 3 MR.. WOODROW: Very good. So this really is something that has concerned me for some time, and I have brought it at least implicity, if not explicity before the hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. And we are trying to plan a meeting now with the landlord who owns the trailer court over in Curling to get matters such as this cleared up. 7459

May 12, 1976, Tape 2631, Page 1 -- apb MR. WOODROW: The matter of insurance, Mr. Speaker, it is not only high on those homes, but also, in fact, on many other places. For example, I know one place, one community hall that was insured this year in my district and the cost jumped 100 per cent. I think in taking a look at insurance on mobile homes we can certainly take a look at other types of insurance as well. I am sure that my hon. friend, the Minister of Consumer Affairs will take a hard look at this also.

He has been very helpful to me with certain problems that I have brought to his attention and I am sure he will do his best on this one also. So I very heartily support the petition of my hon. friend from Conception Bay South (Mr. Nolan). MR. ROWE: MR. SPEAKER: de Verde. MR. ROWE: Mr. Speaker • The hon. the member for Trinity-Bay Sir, I would like to support the peition presented by the member for Conception Bay South (~r.

Nolan), on behalf of between 400 and 500 residents of his district ~~ith respect to protesting, really, the exhorbitant insurance rates on the, for the want of a better expression, mobile homes. But, Sir, there must obviously be a reason for these unfair and inequitable rates and exhorbitant rates. There must be a reason. There must also be a reason for the limited number of companies that are willing to provide insurance to the owners of thesE'. mobile homes.

I hope that if and ~~hen the Minister respqnsible for Consumer Affairs speaks in support of this particular petition he will have some answers to these two basic questions or that he will undertake to find the answers to these two questions. Because a great number of people are not only living in these mobile homes because they are less expensive than the standard homes, but for example, in the district of Trinity-Bay de Verde, a fair number of people are living in these .mobile homes because they are not quite sure of the status of the land l~here they plant these mobile homes, because there is some 7460

May 12, 1976, Tape 2631, Page 2 -- apb MR. ROWE: confusion as to whether the land belongs to Crown Lands, or CN, or the old railroad company. But they are forced, even though they may want to build a home, they find it wiser to buy a mobile home in case they have to move at a later date. Another reason, of course, is the fact that they are just less expensive to live in and to purchase in the first place. But this is a very serious problem amd probably the minister can enlighten us when he speaks in support of this motion as to just why it is.

If,for example, the safety standards or the fire standards or this sort of thing are below that which you would find in a normal home, obviously it should be tackled from the manufacturers point of view.t understand that some mobile homes are extremely hazardous from the fire threat point of view. Now if that is so and that is the reason for the exhorbitant insurance rates, surely the government, federal and/or provincial, should institute some laws that require manufacturers to ensure that these homes are more safe from a fire point of view.

I just add these comments in support of the petition, Sir, and I support it lY'ith pleasure. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I would like to have a few lvords on this petition. Number one is this, that as already mentioned by a number of hon. members, the words, the terminology or phraseology used in talking about these kinds of homes helps to indicate and show some of the solutions to the problems brought up in the petition, and that is, some people

May 12, 1976 Tape No. 2632 NM- 1 MR. PECKFORD: call them trailers, some people call them homes. Now ten or fifteen years ago most of what we now classify as mobile homes were called trailers and were in essence trailers. They were little single wide two or one bedroom trailers that often had hitches on them or could be brought along behind the car and were set up in various places when a gentleman was a mechanic or had some trade which dictated •obility in his employment, and they moved from place to place. MR. SMALLWOOD: From place to place from time bo time. MR. PECKFORD: Now and then.

So everybody talked about trailers and they did not have the same quality of workmanship or size or living accommodations as what has now become known as mobile homes which is a different thing altogether from a trailer. And therefore you have places in Newfoundland that are still called trailer parks and you have some trailers in that park and vou have some mobile homes. Now this has led in laree m,.,.,.,1re to some of the problem with insurance and the trailers are very hazardous fire wise.

Many of these old trailers that are still being lived in by people in some of the parks and are scattered around different municipalities are very hazardous. I know from personal experience because living near me two years ago was a young man and his family who liv~d in a trailer because he could not afford to buy a home or a mobile home. They had this little trailer and had a little porch put on the back of it and one night something happened, a fire and the trailer was gone just like that, not even time for the fire department to ~et to his place. They are very hazardous by their design and everything. MR.

NEARY: N<lt all of them. MR. PECKFORD: Now mobile homes have been recosnized by CMHC and by the Provincial Government as being a suitable type of permanent accommodation and in recognition of that fact both governments 7452

May 12, 1976 TApe No. 2632 NM- 2 HR. PECKFORD: have allowed various programmes to apply· to these mobile homes. Recently I announced, as Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing, the new mobile home regulations and this is an attempt by a government to improve the quality of mobile home parks in the Province which should help to reduce 1 in the long-termJcosts on insurance.

Because you are going to have it, the way these things have to be placed on concrete foundations and this kind of thing-·you can go in places in Newfoundland right now and find mobile homes per se, not trailers mobile homes, on wooden blocks and when you have that kind of a set up it is going to be very difficult to get low insurance.

But with these new regulations which apply specifically to mobile home parks where certain very strict standards have to be adhered to by the owners of those parks number one, and number two, the regulations specifically are designed to encourage mobile homes in ordinary subdivisions in the Province.

In other words for mobile homes to be incorporated into the normal housing structure of a so . called subdivision which would consist then of ordinary wooden framed homes as well as mobile homes per se which should then dictate to insurance companies to charge the same insurance on the mobile home as the wooden framed home next door. Up until now the mobile home has not been placed on concrete foundation, has not had the same frontage, etc., etc., etc., as the normal home does in a recognized subdivision in the Province. MR. SMALLWOOD: Would the minister allow me?

Is it not a fact that throughout the entire frovince,in literally hundreds of settlements, mobile homes are placed and except for their shape and appearnace are undentifiable from all the rest of the homes 6f the commnnityl There is no difference except that the ~hape is different. MI.

EECKFORD: But what has happened is that somebody moved into the community, · needed accommodation, was able to borrow $14,000 instead of $25,000 or $30,000, got a small strip of land, a temporary permit from a council for six months which drara out into two or three years and so on and they have not had the proper frontage, the proper 7463

"!ay 12, 1971i Tape No . 2632 N'l" - 3 ~!R. PECKFORD: foundation, etc . , etc. , Pt e. , and it has led t o the mobile home, ~h i ch in itself is a good form of accommodation not having th~ sa.e image in the eve of every body as it shoul d have, as it legitima t elv should have.

What T am sayi.nl" i.s the regulations that 1u~ have 1ust hrou~hc in on mobile home parks and mobile home~ in y.Pneral anywhere , what we are trv i nlt to encouray.e i s that the consumer and <1evelor~rs of subdjvisions , bot h povernment a~encies and pr i va te develo~ e rs will see by t hese rep,ulations that the mohile home is a very ncce~tab le form of accommodation and should br in these subdivi sions that are heinP. huilt around t he Provlnce nm~. And i f the y are, .•

Nay 12, 1Cl76 Tape 2633 Pk - 1 Mr. Peckford: it should help bring the insurance cost down. So instead of having now a land assembly project in Clarenville or Stephenville or wherever-· Lewisporte, for example, a subdivision in Lewisporte - how many mobile homes are in that one, right down at the other end? MR. ~IlliTE: None. l1R. PECKFORD: None. But these new regulations which municipalities can adopt,and they are strict and the mobile home must be placed and have the same frontage and all the rest as a normal home1 I think this should help in the long term to solve the problem.

Now there might still be some abuses by the companies in how they charge individuals. But the reason is that the image is people are stickin~ these things up all over the place, no good foundation, and t hat in itself is a fire hazard, and this has lead to some extent to the increase over what is charged a normal home. So I just thought I would point out, Hr. Speaker, that through these kinds of regulations it is hoped that the prayer of tae ;,>etition as presented by the han. menl.Jer for Conception Bay Sout h miaht be partiall y answered now. som: I!Oll . l!EHBERS: !le ar, hear! }JR.

SPEAKER: The hon. !!ini s t er of P r ovincial and Cons umer Aff airs. RON . A. J . l1URPliY : Mr. Spea ker, I do not know if there is anything left to say actually about this matter. I think it has had a full di.scuss:lon something like the Address in Reply. But I will just say because I am responsible for the department that is responsible to a certain extent for insurance premiums and this type of thing · and I would like to thank the hon. member for LaPoile for his compliments with regard to Hr.

French and this department, they are doing a very good job - we are literally beseiged, Sir, I say, I will not say hundreds, but I say dozens a week on insurance claims at this time because we got the compulsory automobile insurance claims in too. But we are speaking now of the mobile homes or trailers or whatever you might like to call them. And the situation is basically this, Sir, and I will just put 74G5

Hay 12, 1976 Tape 2633 PK - 2 "[r. }1urphy: it in the language that it is given to me, that insurance companies were in business to make profit. Premium rates are based on the risk inherent in whatever is insured, and the same thing applies in life insurance and anything else. And the feeling is generally that if there is a fire in a trailer home you can write the home off completely. There are no half measures,there are no half, quarter, three-quarters or anything else, the home is completely gone.

And this is one of the reasons _!:hey give me because I have had Teany reports done, I haw' had many investigations made on thi.s tvpe of thing. And we have run into the whole quE·stion of insurance rates and we find that many people today cannot get insurance of any kind, particularly if they use a space heater with no furnace in the rouse. Now if anyone has that problem it is me as a member representing a district "'here a lot of the older parts of St.

John's, and I name Lime Street, I get seve~al calls where they refuse to reneH the insurance because of the fact that space heaters are used instead of the conventional furnace. If there is insurance given on a house the rates l1ave increased because­ again they can r;ive to us details of what it· costs to replace partially I do not get too many completely, but the partial replacement of any repairs to any hmues in view of the rates today and everything else, and the rates have increased they say anywhere from 200 to 350 per cent counting labour and materials as against what prevailed three or four years ago.

So it is quite a problem. As far as the remark of no insurance is less tl1an $20,000 - that is the fi:;st I have heard of that, and I 1dll check that one out. But on mobile homes which we are talking about I ~JOuld like to when I receive the petition from the bon. member for Conception Bay South I will have a long hard look at it. I knmv I have had dozens from Green - what do 1ve call it on the Topsail Road there - MR. NOLAN: 1!R. MURPHY: It is the same one. It is the same one - from that area, and I have had some from the Torbay area, I have had some from the West Coast area that the 7Hi6

May 12, 1976 Tape 2633 PK - 3 Mr. Murphy: hon . member for Bay of Islands (Mr. Woodrow) referred to. But the s ituation is this that these mobi le homes ar e considered a risk, a very great risk , and if i t i s insured it will be they .feel for t he complete restoration of t hat hoce , not partial or anything else . On ~e a fire occur s in one of t hese vou 1us t wipe the thing off wit h furnishings and eve rythin g else . Now there is anot her littl e matter that comes into this, and I do not ~~ow if it has been talke d about and t hat is this sort of comprehensive, the perils damage. 74G7

Hay 12, 1976, Tape 2634, Page 1 -- apb MR. MURPHY: This is being looked at very seriously. Wind storms and this type of thing that does damage to them, where it rips off some of the siding or this type of thing. They are looking at this very, very closely, the insurance companies, and they maintain that they are not charitable institutions nor philanthropic bodies, they are in business to make a dollar Some people may say they make lots of dollars, hut this is the answer I get to it.

Perhaps the answer might be in co-operative groups like the few hundred that are on Topsail Road, coming together in some form and getting some kind o~ a coverage for themselves. But these things are being looken at, Mr. Speaker, I can assure you. It is a very great problem. As I think the member has said, to those who can least afford to pay to protect l4hat they have the rates are very high.

But I Pill say this, I guarante~ the House here, that we are hav1.ng a very hard look at all that ts happening and every report that we ~et is thoroughly investigated and if we feel that there is any ••rang being done we lfill try to right it on behalf of the people of the. Province. SallE HON. ~IE~1BF.RS: 1-ffi. SPEAKER: MR. SPEAKER: HR. DOODY: Hear, hear: Are there any further petitions? NOTICES OF MOTION The han. the Hinister of Finance. ~fr. Speaker, I give notice that I t;ill on tomorrm; ask leave of the hen.

House to move the House into a Committee of the Hhole to consider a resolution in relation to the raising of loans to the credit of the Province. A'~S'WER TO QUEST.IONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HA,':; BEEN GIVEN HR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER HOORES: Hr. Speaker, I have some of the questions that were asked previously ready for today to be tabled. I will not read them all there is far too much, it will take up the rest of the afternoon. Some of them give very little information as the

Hay 12, 197f'i, Tape 2fi34, Page 2-- apb PREHIER HOORES: answer is no. There are others here that give considerable information regarding details and so on. HR. NEARY: Just give the numbers of the questions. PREHIER MOORES: Yes, I will read the numbers of the questions in one moment. Mr. Speaker, the questions that are being answered are- there were seven- number 13, 23, 24, 27, 33, 38, 51, 61 64, 79, 86, 90, 92, 660 and 4fi. ~- S:l-f_ALLWOOD: 646 or 46? PREMIER MOORES: 660 and 46 • IfR. S1'1ALLWOOD: 646 or 46? PREMIER HOORES: 660 and 46. Two questions. Mr.

Speaker, so far there have been a great many more questions, I think, asked in this session than previously. Of the 103 that have been asked my particular office, we have some 71 answered for a 70 per cent ratio. Unfortunately I notice from the figures I have been given that my colleagues are not quite keeping up with that percentage, There has only beer 50 per cent, 381 questions answered out of 760, so far. SOJ'E RON. ME}1BERS: Hear, hear! "'R. DOODY: The Department of Finance is very slack. PREHIER HOORES: Now, Mr. Speaker, the individual departments- you say Finance what? 'MR. DOODY: Is very slack.

PRIDUER MOORES: ---------- Finance, ~r. Speaker, is particularly slack. SOME !ION. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! PREMIER MOORES: We have to look at various departments of this government to see just who is performing in the House as far as ans~•ering questions is concerned, which is not really their most major function. MR. DOODY: We are busy running the department but now when the House is open ~"'e might get around to some of these questions. PREMIER MOORES : The Premier's office is 70 per cent, Mines and Energy is just over 50 per cent, Justice is fi3 per cent, 7~69

Hay 12, 1976, Tape ?.F34, Page 3 - · aph PREMIER MOORES: MR. DOODY: PREMIER MOORES: Finance is not doinp, very wel l. Than!<. you. Public ~~orks is 30 - 12 per cen t is what it is - Forestry and Agri culture 57 per cent , P r ovincial Affai r s and the Environment 33 per cent , Fishe r ies 71 per cent. But then again, Hr. Speaker , the i'i nance fig ures lool· 11wfully good compar ed to Manpower and Tourism which have not answered any ouestions y~t . ~O!'!,E RON. MEMBERS: Rear , hea r ! ~RE}t!E~tOORES : Realth , Mr. ~pe aker , has perf ormed better than anybody with 93 per cent and F.duca t ion 111 per cent.

Industrial a nd Rural Develo oment are :.~h ead of Financ e 1-y i us t 4.2 per cent, but the race i s on. I'R. NEARY: the r es t? PRE'<IIER MOORES: \-'hen ar e we ~oinr, to p,e t the answer s tC\ l will oe finaing out, regarding the pe-rcentages , whi ch I assure the hon . member wi l l have- an effect on t he answer s . They are heing done as quic klv as no ~s ible . ~- DOODY: ls there a t ronhv? PRE!IIER 'IOORES: las t place . !!k_ DQS!D'l :._ PRE?IIF.R ~tO ORES : t he Cabinet . t o questions no•:. There is a trophy . yes , fo r fi.rj;t and I will be happy to ~ et one of t hem.

If you ar e in l ast rlac e you lMV ~tav i n 'lr. Speaker , 1 will table t hese ans14ers 7'ti'O ,. ,.

May 12, 1976 Tape No. 2635 NM - 1 ORAL QUESTIONS MR :..__S!_EAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile followed by the hon. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde. MR. NEARY: Mr. S~eaker, I would like to put a question to the Minister of Fisheries, Sir. Hould the Minister of Fisheries indicate to the House now just what exactly the position is regarding the federal government's stated policy some time ago of withholdin~ $3.8 million in connection with the gear replacement programme until the investigation into fraudulent claims was complete? Has there been any change in that policy?

Is the Government of Canada still withholding the money? Could the minister 1ust give us a progress report on that situation? MR. ~~AKER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. ~- -~ ~CARTE~ Mr. Speaker, I am not sure that it was the state d oolicy of the government to withhold the $3.8 million. Anywav my colleague, the Minister of Mines and Energv,in his capacitv as Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs,wrote the minister in April and he has been informed hy him that the government will honour its commitment to the Province as agreed to under the cost- sharing gear replacement programme.

So to answer your question, the amount in question is not being withheld and the government will honour its commitment and I presume forward the necessary cheques or whatever they do in a case like that, to the ?rovince without any delay. ~- ~~~~ Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR .. sy~AKFY~ A supplementary ~- - ~E:_All-Y_: _ Mr.

Speaker, that is indeed good news. lvould the minister now tell the House if he could indicate to the House Hhat the total of the amount is, the provincial and federal amounts, what the total will cost the provincial government and the Government in Canada in connection ~~ ith the gear replacement programme? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. - · ·---- MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Spe>aker, I do not have those f igure,;. The> total amount I believe is in excess of $7 million. As to a breakdown, 7ft71

l>fav 12, 1971i Tane No. 2fi 35 NH - 2 HR."~·~·--C~RTER: I shall endeavour to p,et that for tomorrovr's- "R. noonv, The federal amount is $3.8 million -- - ·----- MR. LUB_DEJ9!.N_:_ No. 1>/o. It is more than that. MR. C~'l'E:r_ : __ ~!o. "'o. It is more tha.n that. 1t i<1 a cost-sharinp, ,rather comnlicated forn''ll a. having- to no 1dth the, they call it the threshold - is it? - the threshold nrinciple, havin<; to t'fo with so f'luch ner capita. I 1dll endeavour to get the formula tomorrow for th~ hon. member. !o.lR. NEARY: A sunplementarv question, lfr. Speaker.

MR. __ SR_~!_E~ A supplementary. ~R._ Jil~2'..:... Pould the minister indicate now then if the minister's statement is an indication that the Government of Canada is satisfied with the wav the police investigation is proceeding and the reports coming in and so forth~ Is that an indication that they are satisfied lvith the way that the whole thing :i.s '1eing handled, the police investi~ation and so on~ MR. _S ~?:,KE..!:_:_ The han. ~linister of Fisheries . !:!:R,_ ):1_.___9\_:"TER:_ Hr.

Speaker, I have no reason to thinlc that thev are not satisfied and certainly the fact that thev are noH Hillinp and quite anxious, as a matter of fact to rel'lit to the C:overnment of ~ewfoundland their share,I think indicates that they qre satisfied 1dth the actions of the RCM Police ancl the Newfoundlanc:l Constabulary. I have no reason to think that thev are anvthinr: hut satisfied with the pro;~ress heing made. M11.. SPEAKT<:R: The hon. member for Trini tv Bav-de Verde. MR. RQI.IE: Hr. Speaker, I <vould like to adrlress I'JV ']Uestion to the Premier, Sir.

Is the Premier and his administration nlanning to do the right and J-,ononrable thing and onpose T.nto Canada as lonr: as u:o apn~:n· to he more the contrihutors than the henefactors of such a scheme? PREMIER "!OORES: Nr. Speaker, we will always do wl,at is in the hest interest of our Nation and our Province • ., ' ..., ') I 1 i ·~

May 12, 1976 Tape No. 2635 NM- 3 MR. ROWE: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. _S_P~: A supplementary. MR. ROWE: - - ---- I did not ask the hon. the Premier, Sir, whether he was intending to do what is in the best interest of the Province. I asked the hon. Premier, Sir, whether his administration will be opposing Loto Canada? !~IE~M~ORE~ When the decision is made we will advise the han. gentleman, Mr. Speaker. MR._ ~!l!!.=_ A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary. 11R. __ R~~:_ Could the Premier indicate, Sir, what affect Loto Canada would have on say the Atlantic Lottery scheme that the Province is thinking about or the Newfoundland Lottery scheme; PREM!.E!. MOQRES: I have no idea, Mr. Speaker, as it was only announced yesterday and obviously it is impossible to know the answer to that question as quickly as this but certainly that is one of the considerations.that will be taken into consideration when reviewing that particular subject. MR. !'1_0~: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. ~· _:'>_!'!:~_!:R: A supplementary. MR.

NOLAN: I am wondering in view of the fact that there has been much diseussion over the year~ really 1 concerning a lettery whether the provincial one, the one now talked about in the Atlantic area, and of course the one about the Olympics and so on, what represenations the Premier may have had from various groups opposing any Participation by the Province in anv such lotteries? HR. ~ 2_P_E.~: The hon. Premier. PREMIER HOORES: The only ones I know of, Mr. Speaker, are the usual ones.

:-Jay 1:?., 1976 Tape 2636 I'K - 1 ~m. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. lT•. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, <1oulcl the han. Premier tell the rio use lf the han. Premier has been involved in any discussions t; ith CN? A Hr. Blair "'ho made a public statement today that there t•las a remote possibility, a sJ ight possibility and he was very, very careful in his state ment, that we may have a return of the rail passenger s.:·rvicc on a lir~i ted scale in this Province. Has the Premier been i nvol v ed or any ILember of !1i s govern ment been involved in any of these discussions?

And are there any enco)-lraging signs that this rr.ay l!P.. SPE/J'.f.R: The hon. Premier. P RE!!ILn ~; o mu:s: Not to my knmdedge, l!r. Speaker. He have Le en in and had conversations <lith the CN, I have not personally, but t he ~ 1inister of Transportation and Coi'UTlunications has for !'lany reasons, lJUt tl1e reins ti tution of t he passenger services is new to me and I nave not h ~ ard anything of it. ;!r. Speaker, a supplementary question. ~m . SPEAKF.R: A supplementary. NK. NEARY : •lould t h e hon.

Premier in view of the fact th:tt the ------ bus service seems to be costing a flubstantial amount of '"oney to OJ and titat they are thiukin;:; anu looking at returning to the rail passenger service, 1wuld the Pre mier undertake to se< if he can get ~ orne inform<J.tion for the Rouse in connection 1vith this matter? It wou] d a lso save 1.'ear and tear on the Trans-C anada High " a y ns t hr :l ouse knows. !!R. f.l'EAK f.R: The hen. Premier. PRE!IJGl HOORES: :·!r. Speake1, the qualification t0 the question 1 tself is both erroneous.

The fact is if there are any plans by the c:~ to change tl1e bus serv1 ce or to reinstitute the passenr,er service I assume th2t the Province would be notified as the federal government. In either way, I am sure we would be aware of it. I think we should checl-- the story before giving an definitive ansHer. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. Sir, this question again is directed towards the Premier, and I hope I can get a more frank answer than I got in the

Nay 12, 1976 Tape 2636 PK - 2 ~lr. Rowe: previous question. Sir, it relates to land problems particularly in the area of the Southern Trinity Shore. Could the Premier indicate - and this is in the absence really of the ~1inister of Justice - what the status of the land is that used to belong to the old Newfoundland Railroad Company, that I understand reverted to CN, and nmJ I understand it is before the courts and we are trying to have that CN land possibly revert to the Crown. Could the Premier give me some indication on the status of that land at the present time? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier.

PREMIER !100RES: Hr. Speaker, that question has had to do with some fair degree of emergency of matters of the day that are posed, and that is certainly an old one that t~as brought up. As far as the answer to that is concerned I have no i~ea in the world, and I never even heard it even mentioned before. But certainly I would only be too glad to find out for the hon. member. But I am sure also, I mean, is there not anyone who could give an answer to that? I mean that one is a totally ne~J one on me. MR. F. RO\VE: Hell a supplementary. MR. J. SHALLIIOOD: A supplementary, l1r. Speaker? }'ffi..

SPEAKER: The hon. member fc·r Trinity-Bay de Verde, and the hon. member for T1vi llingate has a supplementary. \1ell since it appears to be a relatively new problem to the Premier, Sir, I would just - I am trying to put it in a form of a question.

Does the Premier realize that there are quite a nu~ber of families on the South Shore of Trinity Bay who are, for example, living in trailers instead of building homes because they are not quite sure about the status of the land because it belongs to either the old Newfoundland Railway or CN,or there is a court case that tas been going on for some three years as to the status of the land. PREMIER MOORES: l!r. Speaker, I am sure the hon. member from Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) knows the answer to this better than I 7475

\fay 12, 1976 Tape 2636 PK - 3 Premier J.!oores: do. I do kno~1 the railway has been up for over forty years. And I also know it has not been an issue for forty years. The Crown Lands problem is something else. And it is one that two years ago a great deal of effort was gone into it to try and correct, and as opposed to being three and four years behind in applications, I understand now it is a metter of weeks to get applications processed in one vmy or the other. MR. ROWE; PRENIER mORES: iJeeks? Years. In that regard, Sir, I think some significant progress has been made.

But on this particular issue of the old raj h111y track going down the Trinity South Sl,ore, as I say, it is a forty year old issue, Sir, and it is c0.rtainly one I will gladly look into. MR. ROllE: Just one last supplementary. ~1R. SPEAKER; The hon. member for Twillingate. I said previously that I tJould recognize the han. member for l'tdllingate. ~11< • .J. SMI\LUJOOD: Mr. Speaker, I would like to put a question to the han. Premier and yet I would like to break the rules by giving some information rather than askinr: a question, but I vmuld like to put it in the form of a question.

PREHIER HOORES: Thank you, Sir. HR. S~!ALUIOOD: Does the han. Premier not recall that the CNR own nothing in Newfm.:ndland. The ownership is in the GcNernment of Canada which took over the Newfoundland Railway at the coming of Confeceration and then under the Railway Act of the Parliament of Canada entrusted the management of the railway to the CNR. The CNR, the railway company are being only the managers of the railway, the owners being the Government of Canada, which means

May 12, 1976 Tape No. 2637 NM - 1 MR. SMALLWOOD: therefore the CNR own nothing in Newfoundland. They are mere managers. Therefore the land, would not the Premier agree, on which the Ne\~foundland Railway stood at the coming of Confederation,when the Government of Canada took over the railway would be the land there was.But there was no railway on the Southside of Trinity Bay at the coming of Confederation, it had been ended years before by the Commission of Government. That is a rather long question but - MR. F. ROl.JE: Who owns the land? MR. SMALLWOOD: The land belongs to the Government of Newfoundland surely.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, I am only too glad to say that having phrased the question that way I can sFy to the hon. member for T~~illingate I know now., But he must also appreciate the fact that at the time when all these things were happening, some several years ago, he was the chief engineer and I was only the caboose I !',Uess. I ~~as quite young anyway 1 I suppose the caboose. MR. F. ROWE: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde. l'.!R. F. ROWE: ~r.

Speaker, would the Premier undertake when the ~inister of Justice gets back to check into this aatter fully? Because when representation has been made to Crown Lands on behalf of people who want to buy or purchase or get a lease on this land they are told that there are problems because of a court case that I know nothing about and obviously nobody else knows anything about. PREMIER MOORES : Mr. Speaker, as soon as the Minister of Justice gets back we will get it back on the rails. MR. F. ROWE: I thank the Premier for the answer. MR.

SPEAKER: I will reco~ze the hon. memb@r fnT Wiftdsor - Buchans and then the hon. member for LaPoile. 7477

May 12, 1976 Tape No. 2637 MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, in asking this question of the Premier I should congratulate him for his performance in his answers to the written ouestions but I am concerned with an oral question I asked approximately a month ago. it was with regards to what department ~~as responsible for NM- 2 the administration of the fund collected by the Newfoundland r~vernment to clean up the automobile wrecks in Newfoundland, whether it was the Department of Transporation and Communcations or the Department of the Environment? HR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PRE~IER MOORES: As of this time now the answer is Consumer Affairs and the Environment. MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. ~fit. FLIGHT: And I might as well direct a question now to the minister responsible. Can the minister advise the House as to what portion of that fund has been disbursed at this point and is the Government of Newfoundland now responsible for the cleaning up of automobile wrecks acr~ss the Province and is that company still performing that? MR. MURPHY: What was the first part of the question? MR.

FLIGHT: What portion of the fund that was collected has been disburseq to the company involved? What services that company rendered to warrant the disbursement? And is the Province now responsible for the cleaning ap of automobile wrecks in this Province. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Provincial Affairs and Environment. MR.

MURPHY: I have all the information but I just want _, I think just a short word to talk about the dollar collected, That was only a part of the amount of monies that were used in gathering together many thousands of wrecks and I am happy to say, and I will get the full answer up to date, that some of the wrecks are now being shipped out of the Province, which was a part of the deal also of scrap metal. But we are trying to the be8t of our ability to try to handle the 7~78

May 12, 1976 Tape No. 2637 NM- 3 MR. MURPHY: thing. I would just like to tell the House now that this year we are going to have perhaps double the numbers. Because I understand that because of compulsory insurance many people with olden cars say that they are not even worth insuring. They just drive t~ .. along a road, get out and take the key out and go on home and leave the car where it is. So it is going to be very difficult to clean up things but I will try to get the whole picture in focus and give the hon. gentleman an answer as soon as possible. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR.

NEARY: I have a question for the Minister of Finance, Sir. In view of the fact that the minister either innocently or deliberately misled the House the other day in answering a question in connection with the breakdown of negotiations with NAPE - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Because of the extremely contentious circumstances surrounding any insinuation of voluntarily misleading, this type of terminology when used has usually caused a quite protractive and heated discussion,! would ask the hon. gentleman to rephrase. MR.

NEARY: Well would the minister, Sir, care to revise his statement that the minister made the other day in connection with the breakdown of negotiations between Treasury Board and Nape and is it correct that the government has slapped four per cent on the table and told NAPE to take it or leave itZ 7~79

May 12, 1976 Tape no. 2638 Page 1 - row MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, first I thank you for your protection. I can really understand the sensitivity of the hen. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary). He is still smarting from my reference to his little sortie into Harbour Main. So keeping that in mind I will - MR. SMALLWOOD: He must be pretty thin skinned. MR. NEARY: He is sore and smarting about the statement he made the other day which was not true. MR. DOODY: The answer first of all is that Treasury Board has not slapped anything on the table.

As J understand it, you know, they are not the slapping type. Thev are more used to bein~ slaooed. There are slaooers. The position as I understand it, and which I informed this House of and which is still correct, Sir, is that the last offer that Treasury Board made to the Public Service Union, the NAPE subdivision that the hon. member is referring to, the last Treasury Board offer was a four per cent in-wage package. The union's position at that time was in the vicinity of twenty-two per cent. NAPE feels that twenty-two per cent is not really the figure.

They prefer to talk in block dollars in terms of several hundred dollars ~ather than percentages. That is an academic exercise. But in terms of actual relationship to their present position, it is a twenty-two per cent request. The four per cent was placed on the table at a negotiating process between the conciliation officer and the two parties.

It was indicated also at the same time and subsequently by me publicly that the four per cent was not government's final figure, that we look forward to hearing from NAPE again in this regard with a counter offer and government is prepared to put some more money on the table. Whether we will slap it on the table or whether we will do in the manner in which we have been used to doing it remains, of course, to be seen. That I cannot anticipate, but I would imagine that it will be done in the gentlemanly fashion, that we have conducted

May 12, 1976 Tape no. 2638 Page 2 - mw Mr. Doody. negotiations in the past. The four per cent was not the final figure. It was never intended to be the final figure. That has been said, and we will continue to say so. We will talk to NAPE any time they want to come back. The conciliation officer is aware of this. NAPE is aware of it. I understand there is a meeting tonight to discuss it. The NAPE people will discuss it, and I am sure that we will hear further about it tomorrow.

But I hope the terms in which the results of that meeting are expressed will be somewhat more diplomatic and tactful than the language of the han·. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) who asked the question. MR. SPEAKER: I recognize the hon. member for LaPoile on a suppiementary. MR. NEARY: Hr. Speaker, the fact that there was additional money on the plate,on the table - MR. DOODY: ~fR. NEARY: Available. - available did the minister make this aware during negotiations? Or did NAPE learn it for the first time when the minister appeared on television the other night?

And is this not a peculiar way to carry on negotiations, to carry on negotiations in public and not in private. Is this the first time they heard about additional money being made available .when they heard it on television the .other night, when the minister was interviewed? ~fR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: I do not know if ·it was on television. I thought it was a news release. MR. NEARY: MR. DOODY: MR. NEARY: No, it was on television, Did you see it? I saw it, yes. MR. DOODY: Did you like it? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 74 8 j

t1ay 12, 1976 Tape no. 2638 Page 3 - row l1R. NEARY: I had a bucket along side with a towel. MR. DOODY: How did you make out? Did you manage to squeeze a tear? MR. NEARY: I nearly filled up the bucket. MR. DiJODY: The people of Newfoundland lvill be delighted to know that you are so emotional. ~yself I find it difficult to believe. But knowing you to be an honourable and decent gentleman, I am sure you would not mislead the House. !IR. SMALLWOOD: The word 'you' used can only mean t:r. Speaker. That is no way to speak to Mr. Speaker. ;cR. DOODY: I was not addressing the han. gentleman.

I was addressing the han. member. I will take my admonitions from the Chair, Sir, 1.rith your permission. MR. SMALLWOOD: ."'!R. NEARY: HR. SPEAKER: question. A supplementary question. Could we have the answer to the question? The hon. member for T1villingate on a supplementary SO Mil RON. l1EJ-ffiERS: Oh, oh: MF .. SPEAKER: Order, please! ~1R. SMALL'WOOD: I will refrain from calling the minister 'you' and I will call him the hon. minister.

Would the hon. minister tell the House how much additional money it would cost the Treasury to give this four per cent and would he tell us furthenwhat each individual one percentage point increase represents in cost and would he tell us where the money is coming from? Is this over and above what the House has already voted? If 7482

May 12, 1976 Tape No. 2639 NM- 1 MR. SMALLWOOD: so where is the money coming from? B.. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. MR. OOODY: First of all I would like to finish my answer to the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) if I may, Sir, even if I do inadvertently break the House rules by using the vernacular ~•ithout leave of the hon. member for Twillingate. I will continue to address through you, Sir, the hon. member for LaPoile.

The negotiating team, as I understand it, of the Collective BargaiKiBg Division of Treasury Board had made their position quite clear to the mediator from the Manpower and Industrial Relations Division that this was not the final position of government. MR. NEARY: ~~y did they break off? MR. DOODY: That there were other funds available. Why NAPE decided that this was not acceptable is something~of course,that I cannot address myself to. I find my hands full in trying to handle government's side of the job. That is very difficult. As for the question of the hon. member for Twillingate (Mr.

Smallwood) who is so sensitive about the House rules, and to whom I apologize to through you, Sir. The money to pay the•public service will come from the Consolidated Revenue fund as indeed all the revenue that the Province spends. If the salary bill of the Province, each percentage point, you know this gets quite simple to see1 it is just a matter of opening up the budget document to the appropriate page and it is mentioned in there. I will not take the House's time by going into it right now. We will go into it quite clearly and in great dealer later oa. MR.

SMALLWOOD: The four per cent being negotiated is not the whole public service is it? MR. DOODY: No, no, this is just - . MR. S~~LLWOOD: Well the one per cent that is being talked about will cost the Treasury how much more than i• being voted by the House? MR. DOODY: Well, Sir, if you will notic~ in the individual 7'±~3

May 12, 1976 Tape No. 2639 NM- 2 MR. DOODY: subheads that there is a block vote for salaries which includes an amount for extra positions for upgradings and for various and sundried other increases in that particular division-'s or department's vote. Now what the exact percentage is I am certainly not going to state at this time because it would only reinforce the opinion of the hon. member for LaPoile (Hr. Neary) that we are negotiating publicly and not nrivately.

It would be certainly unfair to the whole spirit of the collective _bargaining process if we were to say He have voted "x" number of dolla~s and this is what is available and there ~s no need to bargain collectively. We >dll not do it. It is here and that is the end of it. Obviously we cannot do that. We have a collective bargaining arrangement. We have ~iven the public service the right to exercise their views and "e are certainly going to do it. There js a block amount voted in there. Hopefully we will be able to live within that amount.

Hopefully we will be able to live with a lesser amount because as the hen. memher is aware our budgetary position is a precarious one and we want to spend as little money as we possiblv can in the interest of the fiscal responsibilities of the Province. lfuat the actual limit is certainly I am not in a position to say to this hen. House. There would be no need to have a union and no need to have a Collective Bargaining Division. MR. S:t>'ALLlvOOD: How much is the four per cent? How much tax~ Can the minister tell us that? How much tax if it is settled at four per cent, how much tax? MR. NEARY: Hr.

Speaker, a supolementary. HR. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, with great deference to the hen. member for ~~illingate (Mr. Smallwood) who just reprimanded me publicly in this hon. House for using the term "you" he sits in his seat and questions me across the floor without recognizing the Chair,

May 12, 1976 Tape No. 2639 NM- 3 MI. DOODY: the bon. Opposition House Leader, the bon. member - all of whom are on their feet, you know I mean - MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary question , Mr . Speaker. I will allow one further supplementary. MR. NEARY: In View of the answers that the minister has given to the various questions about negotiations, would the mtnister now indicate to the House if negotiations are continuing with NAPE or is there a standoff at the present time or has the strike ballot gone out? What is the position now in connection with the negotiations? Is the door still open?

Is NAPE willing to negotiate? Are negotiations continuing? What is the position now? MR. DOODY: Are you finished? MR. NEARY: Yes. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, as I indicated to the House a little while ago, as I understand it there is a meeting of that particular local of NAPE this evening. Perhapa the people in the building here, the employees in the building and other sections of the public service branch of KAPE, they will be discussing the situation and I understand that strike ballots either have been or are in the process of being distributed.

Whether they have been mailed out or whether they will be distributed this evening I am not sure, I do not know. I do know that the door is certainly not closed. Since government has indicated the fact that there is more money on the table awaiting for negotiations then obviously the doors is obviously not closed. What we are saying, Sir, is that we are waiting for a response from the unior. to our last offer. And the union feels that our last offer was less than adequate. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde

May 12, 1976 - Tape No. 2639 NM- 4 MR. ROIVE: Sir, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Munici pal Affairs and Housin g . Sir, in view of the fact tha t the ·re are s till a f air nlllllber of large CC'mmunities, I think of my own district communities such as New Harb our and Green's Barbour that are not incorporated and have a great need for water systems and l oca l r 0a d improvement and this sort of a thin g , coul d the minis ter indicate, Sir. to the Hous e IJhat the status is of the inco rporation of communities that wis h to b e incorporated in this coming year. MR. SPEAKER: The hon . !1inister of Kuncioal Affairs and Flo us in~ . HR. PECKFORD: Mr . Speaker, ,..

~lay 12, 1976 Tape 2640 PK - 1 Mr. Peckford: At the present time there is a freeze on incorporations, and that remains so right up to this day and will remain so for several ueeks from no~'• After that time I shall be consulting Hith ll'Y colleagues in Cauinet to get a decision on what our policy should be for the remainder of the year. Of course, the problem is not a simple one. It sounds simple on the surface. There are close to twenty settlements in the Province right now requesting the incorporation of one form or another.

And the cost of incorporation is fairly an expensive business in today's dollars because you are not only talking about the inittal grant \lhich every settlement automatically gets when it becomes incorporated but then they automatically qualify for the revenue erant progr1ll11Ille, they automatically qualify for the local road grant programme, they automatically qualify for the fifty/fifty cost sharing on fire fightinfl and incinerators, tl1ey automatically <jualify for the sixty/£orty road reconstruction, paving prograrmne and so on.

Sc it runs into hundreds of thousand,; of dollars to just incorporate a fe•,., places, especially as the hon. member says, when there are still some large places not incorporated. So that is the policy at the present time, there is a freeze on incorporations. I shall be consulting tdth ny colleagues in Lc,binet to see tvhether to7e will be in a pc>sition to incorpo:::-ate other settlements this year, ~1ow r:"cany, w".ere and this kind of thing, and will report that information or make that information public as soon as the policy changes. SOliE HON. l1E~ffii:RS : Hear, hear! MR. r. ROWE: A supplementary. HR.

SPEAKER: Another supplementary . rm. F. ROHE: I just want to make sure I am hearing the minister correctly. Is the minister saying that the reason for the freeze on tt1e incorporation of comrmnities within the rrovince at the present time, ''7hich is to be reviewed in several weeks ,is purely because of financial considerations, fiscal considerations, the non-availability of money to incorporate these communities, and/or because of the fact

Hay 12, 1976 Tape 2640 PK - 2 Hr. Rowe: that ~he government or the aclministration is still studying the vfuelan Poyal Commission, and is that a factor involved as well? !·m. SPEL'.KCR: HR. PECKFORD: The hon. Hinister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. Yes, Hr. Speaker. I did not want to be too long in my :ms~;er, and, you know, perhaps I should have been longer. One of the reasons is the fiscal thing, and the other thing is that we are studying the Whelan Royal Commission. There is a Steering Committee appointed which is now laying down policy decisions to be decided upon by government.

They are laying dmm policy decisions for the minister 'Jho t.<Les it to Cabinet for a decision from Cabinet. And that Committee has met on several occasio:1.s right now and has various recommendations ta put to government based on the Hhelan Royal Commission. In the St. Joh"' s region it is even more complex because we are awaiting the urban region study, the Henley Commission studies on local government which should be in by the end of June or the middle of July. So this adds to it.

But this is also a consideration, the Whelan Royal Commission and the Steering Committee now formed that is giving recommendations on how we should proceed with these things that l·lhelan has to say about local government. HR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Fogo. CAPT. E. 1HNSOR: Hr. Speaker, I \Jould like to direct a question to the han. Minister of Fisheries.

Can the minister tell the House vhich goven1ment now is responsible for the upkeeping and maintenance of the community stages around the Province, is it the Provincial Government~ And have the community stages been passed ave~ to the Province or are they still retained by the Feueral Government? HR. SPI:AKER: The hon. Hinister of Fisheries. HON. W. CARTE.R: Mr. Speaker, the matter of community stages is still the responsibility, at least as far as I know, of the Federal Department of Fisheries and the Environment.

As the hon. member knows there is an agreement being prepared that will have the effect of passing over to the Province rights entitled to these premises after certain upgrading

I lay 12 , ! <!76 Ta;>e 2640 PK - 3 Mr. ':! . Carter . wor! ltns been :.mdercaken . :lose of these stages are now in need of r e?P1Y., conse quently it is going to cost a lot of money. And ny undrrstand ing of it is that t he Federal Governmen t will assu~e, I beli eve , it is 75 per cent of the cos t <'f up&r ading the b uildings after whic 1l t hey will be then conveyed to the Province for future us f., nnd I rrestw~c fa ture main tenanc e O!nd o•·'l•ersltip. ' fR . fl'EAl:.X::R: TI:e time for Question Period has transpir ed .

I)RDERS OF Tl:E DAY !tiL srr.AKrR: T<,day beinz friva te !lemher s iiay - is the !ton . gen tleman risi ng on a poin t of c rder? MR. NEARY: !IR . $!'1:1\l:.J:R: 12. No . being I'dvate '!embers Day w~: procned t o 'loti on

Hay 12, 1976 Tape no. 2641 Page 1 - mw MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Bay of Islands. MR. WOODROW: Mr. Speaker, I would like to say a few words concerning the motion that is on the floor by the hon. Leader of the Opposition, and in doing so I want to commend the member for Trinity - Bay de Verde (Mr. Rowe) - I am sorry he has left the House now - for making what I thought was, when he spoke last week, a very good suggestion or a very good statement. In essence, Mr. Speaker, he was saying that a member of this hen.

House of Assembl~ once he is elected as a member of the House of Assembly, it becomes a full-time job. And I have to agree with him on that. First of all he mentioned three things. We have to look after our districts. We have to work for our party. And we have also to put in certain hours in this hen. House of Assembly.

And all these three things mentioned are to my mind extremely important if we are going to try to be honest with our constituents and earn the dollars, earn them in fact, do work, to earn the dollars which are given us here in this House of Assembly and in fact not waste the people's time or waste the people's money, because after all we are sent here, Hr. Speaker, by the people of the fifty-one districts in the Province of Newfoundland. And I think they expect us to work on their behalf. In fact I feel that if we are not working on their behalf we have no business being here at all.

In fact in conscience we should perhaps resign from the House of Assembly altogether. Now you may probably think, for example, that a member without a portfolio, you may think that he has not enough work to do, but, Mr. Speaker, I can say this much, and perhaps I speak for all members who do not hold a portfolio that if we try to do our job honestly, frankly and sincerely, we have more than a full-time job.

And I know as far as I am concerned the day is not long enough to do all that I would like to do for the people especially of the Bay of Islands district, and for that matter for the people of the Province in general. So I agree with the han. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde (Mr. Rowe) when he emphasized last week, last Wednesday I think it was,

May 12, 1976 Tape no. 2641 Page 2 - IIIW Mr. Woodrow. that being a member of this hon. House of Assembly is a full-time job. And I am not going to try to give advice to any member. I do not have to do that. Each member has a conscience. And if we are going to live up to our conscience well then we know what we have to do.

I would just like to mention now in passing before I get on to the important things I have to say, there is a heading in today's paper, in the Evening Telegram,"Eight Drowning Deaths Recorded In The Last Four Days." And I have just received this morning, in fact I received more sad news about a drowning in my own district, in the town of Benoit's Cove. Incidentally this man had on his life jacket when he was drowned. He was found tangled up yesterday evening in a lobster trap. So I do not really know how he died. Sometimes people say that we should have on the life jacket.

This man had, and I just do not know what happened, but certainly it is sad to hear of so many drownings in our Province •. The West Coast of the Province, Hr. Speaker, in 1976 had had its share of drownings. Now this all goes to say that it is time, it is high time for the federal government not to be looking upon search and rescue as a joke any more. I think they certainly should consider the proposals that have been made by the hon. Minister of Fisheries to get on to the job of doing something about a search ~nd rescue centre for the Province of Newfoundland.

Too many in fact of our fishermen have lost their lives. In 1976 and for that matter down through the years, in fact 1lives perhaps would not have been lost if we had had a search and rescue station or centre here in the Province of Newfoundland.

May 12, 1976 Tape no. 2641 Page 3 ~ mw Hr. Woodrow. Now, Mr. Speaker, in getting on with the motion. The motion before the House is: "Now BE IT THEREFORE RESOLVED that a Select Committee be appointed to enquire into and to report upon the prospects for Newfoundland and Labrador, including the prospects for economic growth and development and in particular a consideration of those types of development which are best suited to foster and to encourage the way of life most desired by the people of Newfoundland and Labrador." Mr.

Speaker, I feel sure, and in fact I have it here before me,, I have a lot of facts here, it would take me a long time to go over them all and to g0 into details of them all1 but I do not know if the hon. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde (Mr. Rowe) is grinning over there or not. I am sorry. Perhaps he was under the impression that I did not have any facts here to back up what I am going to say. In any case we all, I think, realize that the most important thing for any Province is employment. And we have to work all we can.

We have to work together as a government and, of course, as a \louse of Assembly to try to encourage employment, to try to find out ways and means of finding employment. In fact I do not really think that this is only a part of the party in power. I think it is really a part of the Opposition as well, So I believe in fact that if there is anything they can do by way of constructive criticism to encourage employment in the Province of Newfoundland well I feel sure that they too will show their good will.

I suppose really if they really could get the credit for getting some industry or creating some new employment in their own districts well it would certainly be good for them in the future. And I think really this is what it is all about. The bon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) who has left his seat I notice referEed to productivity, and I think really I suppose in essence what he means is that the more people we have working, the more industries we have, th~ bett~r it is going to be for the Province in general and its people. 7~92

May 12. 1976 Tape no. 2641 Page 4 - mw Mr. Woodrow. Now I have taken, Mr. Speaker, the various headings of government and I just wanted to pointed out what has been done In fact I can go back to power. 1972 when this government came into

May 12, 1976, Tape 2642, Page 1 -- apb "1R. WOODROW: In any case no government can perform miracles. They feel that they try to do what is best and '~hat is in the interest of the Province. Take,for example, Municipal Affairs and Housing. I have here figures to prove that the gross departmental expenditure has increased by the large figure of 325 per cent since 1970. The major part of this increase to the tune of 222 per cent occurred durin~ the present government's tenure, or since 1°72. Housing since the present government took over has occupied more than one·- third of the department's budget.

It has averaged 40 per cent of the department's budget during the present governmer.t's tenure. The Fater Services Division has grmm so as to become a substantial factor in tl1e provision of ~~ater to rural Newfoundland. Previous to 1973, it was a small part of one division of the Community and Social Development Department. No" I think llll of us, ancl especially the members from the outlying districts, are from what I suppose is referred to as the outr>ort rHstri.cts. l•le are all concerned about ~.'ater and severage. In fact, lfr.

Sr>eaker, I shoulcl lil<e to say in my campaign I only made one promise and that promise was to do all I could for people. But I placed on a priority list I•Jater and se1•leraf;e because this is terrihly important. It is important for people to have uater and sewerage. In fact, I really think that I would rather he lacving in electricity and have vmter instead. In the district of Bay of Islands at the present time,and in many other districts as well, people do not have the necessity - it is not a luxury anymore - of water and sewerage.

Certainly I am doing all I can to encourage the government of the day to bring water and sewerage to the Bay of Islands district. By the same token, Mr. Speaker, I want to say, I am not F;Oing to be biased .As I have said before I feel that we have fifty--one districts and in trying to cut the pie into

May 12, 1976, Tape 2642, Page 2 -- apb MR. WOODROW: fifty-one pieces 1 it is not always easy. And I notice about this government, and I have to say it very sincerely, they try to be fair and square t~ith everybody, and this is something, I thinl~ , that the Government of this Province at the present time will go down in history for. They try to be honest and fair with every district. Of course the question of housing in the West coast area, in the City of Corner Brook which is a part of my district, there has been a crying need for housing over the past decade.

The ne~1 college and the extension to the hospital have brought many people to this particular part of the Province, to the City of Corner Brook,and a lot has been done in this direction, to bring housing to the people of the 1-lest coast. I am speaking of the West coast now and I am sure a lot has been done in many districts to help in this particular way,. I do not knoP what any other government would have done. I clo not think they would have done as nruch to bring housing and services such as water and sewerage to the various districts of the Province.

Also what I think is terribly important in what has been done, I really feel that incorporating ·- it was mentioned to day in the Question Period here - incorporatjng as many pJ aces in the Pnwince is very, very important. Because after all, I know the way I t~ork. I do not just work with any Tom, Dick or Harry in the various parts of my district. If a request comes to me about a road or about something else, maybe water and sewerage, I always -.mrk uith the council, because the council is the governing body. The council works with me, I work with them and I can work wit11 the Province.

I think then we are working in an organized way. That is the reason why I say again that this government is organized, and that is certainly something in their favour. I would just like to tell you that the number of municipal councils have grown .tremendously in the past fetv years, giving us 296 incorporated cOllllllunities today. Maybe 7495

Hay 12, 1°7f;, Tape 7642, Page 3 -- apb NR. WOODR0\-1: there are a fev' more than that nm,•, but in any case, that really is a great stride. On the ~uestion of paving anct reconstruction, this used to be done in the municipalities on a fifty· fifty basis. I understand now that it is -!one on a sixty··fortv basis, •ri th the department of ~unicipal Affairs and Housinr, paying 60 ner cent of the cost and the local council paying 40 per cent. Also in the fi.e.ld of housing, Hr. Speak~r, very recently ve announced a net~ $f'iflf1. p,rant for nev homeowners.

This became effective January 1976 and it tviJl help to fill the ' vacuum left ~1hen Ottawa ended its similar $500. programme on December 31, 1975. In fact, '1r. Speaker, I hail a motion before the House, I put it hefore the House in lC175 to a.;k flttawa to reinstate the $500. No•• imagine, this would be S1,1nn. which certainly would he very helpfuJ to people in the outlying areas of the T'rovince. We have also improved the road maintenance ~~ants to councils. It is now $8()n per mile for the first f:f.ve miles and $600 a mile for each mile thereafter. In fact I have a whole list here, Mr.

Speaker, of expenditures and so on from this department from 1070 to 1975. Certainly it goes to prove that the present government of the Province certainly must have been sitting dO\vn and thinking. I 'mnder sometimes. in the Name of r.od, ho~1 the ministers, they have to spend so much time in the Fouse of Assembly, they havE> to travel., they l1ave to go to their districts - granted they have executive assistants, in fact, in some cases I think they should have tHo in order to be ahle to do iustice to their districts. A lot of thought, ~fr.

Speaker, and a lot of tmrk goes into running a province, especially if you are trying to do it conscientiously and t?ith common sense. Just to come into another phase of l-Jhat has been done. It is very hard sometimes to say ;ust what heading one should take next.

May 12, 1976 Tape 2643 PK - 1 Mr. Woodrow: In the question, for example, of Rural Development I think it is really important, very important to our Province, Here again you know, we are thinking of the outport districts. I really think this is where rural development should shineJin the putport districts. Because in places like, for example, Corner Brook and St. John's and even Stephenville, for example, they have big industries and most people, at least a good many of them, are finding employment from these various industries.

Now the employment creation aspect of our rural development programr aes have been very satisfying in that approximately 3,000 job s have been created in nearly 300 communities in the Pro vince. I t!lir ,k that is good, in fact, it certainly is uot enough, but it certainly is a good step in the right direction, and I know fr e>m here on the government are going to try to continue to create more jobs by tlds Department of Rural Development. Orga nization work has ·resulted in the formation of t~< en ty­ seven regional associations including two in Labrador.

This has provided many of our rural areas with the means to plan an d im~Jl en:e nt the i r otm economic projects and keep in mind the impact on t ite SL> cial structur e of their communities. Over 300,000 Het.;foundlanders have been involved with these programmes. So if that is not sornethin r, in the right direction I do not know ;,hat is. This Winter many of the associations will be,in co-operatio n with the Department of Rural Development, conducting coml'lunity profil es. This information will form a basia for comprehensive develop ment plans in these areas.

We encourage the establisncent of central planning facilities on a recreational basil throughout the Province. 1-ie will be pursuing development opportunities in trout, farming, eel fishing and the processing of native fruita. _Special emphasis will be given to the development of all aspects of the handicraft industry from the product level through to the final market. Particular attention will be given to ensure that quality products only will be marketed as Newfoundland crafts. Efforts will be madP. tn intrnrln~l'! n- techniaues while still

Tape 2643 PK - 2 Hr. Woodrot~: maintaining the handicraft tradition which will enable the producer to realize greater returns. Special programmes will be devised to encourage local enterprises in order to avail of all possible development opportunities. I think, Mr. Speaker, that department, th< Department of R~ral Development, I certainly think it is a great - i t is a great t:ling for the Province. Now our people in the smaller places are really catching on.

I thought it was nice last Sununer itc going through the various parts of my t!istrict, especially .i.ll the Benoit's Cove area, I found a little store open where they w.:re selling handicrafts, they were rn<lking use of everythine. They were making use of, in fact, the rocks on the beach, and,in fact,every thin~; they could find ,.;hich I think really is a great thinr; for the people of the Province knowing that we can make use of all the facilities or all,we say, the things that God has given us in this Province.

I remember one tine travelling in the l·1iddle East, this v.•as maybe five or six years ago, over in a place called Nyasa . I remember over there they were makiTI:; a special apron. I saw the ladies on the street they were selling thel'l, and it was really bringing home to the people the importance of horne handicrafts, I suppose, you •muld call it. So I think, Hr. Speaker, encouraging people in this way to my mind is very important and I feel that more of this will be done. Mr. Speaker, I also want to comment on the very human way that the government have faced social services.

I am glad the minister is here in the !louse, and I am sure he will agree with what I am saying because he has been a part of it. First of all, they have strengthened the family unit. NoH this is aalled preventive welfare. We began our upgrading of the social services in this Province on the premise that the family is the basic unit of society. And I think, Hr.

Speaker, that held true many years ago and it still holds true, and it is regrettable today, and I emphasize 'regrettable' today that there are so many separations and so ruany divorces in our Province which to my mind breaks up the family unit 0 In fact, sometimes

May 12, 1976 Tape 2643 PK - 3 Mr. Woodrow: it is disgusting and I hope that people will be able to see how important it is for us to live together, taking everybody's ups and downs. After all none of us are perfect. We began our upgrading of the social services in this Province on the premise that the family is the basic unit of society and that social services ought to be heavily committed to preserving the family unit. It is terribly important. To this end our grave emphasis was placed on services of a protective,supportive and rehabilitative nature.

These services are designed to strengthen and preserve individual and family functioning since we are concerned above all else with keeping families together and aged and handicapped people in their own homes as long as possible. I know that it is unfortunate that we have to have people,sometimes even able-bodied peopl~ on social services. But however this is a fact of life and we have to access it. Earlier, in fact, when we were presenting petitions I also ~entioned homes for the aged. And the government have certainly done a lot in this regard.

In fact, there is no doubt about it there is a lot more to be done, a lot more could be done. But, of course, everything as you know, Hr. Speaker, costs money. The dollar, in fact, the value of the dollar is going down each year. But I think it is terribly important for us to look after the people in our Province. Ehe aged, for example, I am speaking now of the handicapped, people, in fact, who have strokes. For example, my own mother in 1972, February 12 she had a stroke, thank God her mind is still ,.,onderful, she will be ninety-four come October 15, but thank God she was able to get in St.

Patrick's Mercy Home in St. John's. And there is no end of praise to my mind, no words, in fact, would adequately describe ~1hat good is being done in homes like St. Patricks ¥~rcy Home, like the Hayles Horne and St. Luke's Home and the Interfaith Home, and of course the others­ there is one in Harbour Grace and one in Gander, in fact wherever they are located in the Province of Newfoundland. This not only, of course, youknow, looks after the aged, but it also provides employment. To my mind this 7±Sn

May 12, 1976 Tape no. 2644 Page 1 - mw Mr. Woodrow. really is another field in which the government has worked tremendously hard and no doubt has put a lot of thought. But also I said earlier, Mr. Speaker - and I believe all this makes sense. It is probably boring members I do not know. But in any case I think that elderly people in good health do not want to leave the area where they were born. In fact they want to stick to their own environment as much as possible.

They want to go out and still look at the old salt Hater, I guess, I suppose, and look at the beaches and everything else, look at - I know in l'!any places where the land is no longer fertile. \\Tell these are the old memories that those people have, and they are the people w!1o he~p~d the Province of Newfoundland, and I think, you know, if they could remain in the environment where they were born and if we had such things as -we could call them condominiums if you like - condominiums, maybe places that could house ten to twenty people. In fact I was visiting the home in Gander.

I do not know what the home in Gander is called, the old age home. But I know that over it Gander they have their little apartments. They have the little kitchen, living room and it really gives a bit more privacy to the people who live there, and I think they are entitled to this because after all I think, you know, they should be able to live in those homes relatively speaking as they live in their own home. Now also on the work of relief . we could call it government's first step was to provide job related services to the chronic social assistance recipient.

And I am happy to report that phenomenal results have been achieved. Through the efforts of a new division of employment opportunities in the Department of Social Services 3,800 recipients of social assistance have been placed in employment or training. MR.MURPHY: Hear, hear! MR. WOODROW: In fact the able-bodied social assistance case load has been reduced dramaticalfY since this government took office. I 7500

May 12, 1976 Tape no. 2644 Page 2 - mw Mr. Woodrow. think that is really good. In fact naturally it is a step, I think, in the right direction, and it is a way of trvina t~ keep people employed rather than have them on social assistance. Now regarding social workers. Three years ago we greatly increased the number of social workers in the Department of Social Services. This was one aspect of the growth of the civil service in this Province that has paid dividends.

With additional social workers the Department of Social Services was able to, among other things, cut down on the number of neglected children that have been coming into care. In fact the number of children in the care of the Director of Child Welfare decreased by over 400 in the past three years. Furthermore the number of children who are committed to juvenile correctional institutes was reduced. And during 1975 the Field Services Division of the Department of Social Services was totally recognized and a trained administrator was placed in charge of each district office.

This move was made to improve efficiency as well as the quality of service. And in the field of new day care and homemaker services, during the last session of the House of Assembly we introduced a New Day eare and Homemaker Service Act. This act will provide the framework for the growth and the development of these services in this Pravince. The new development is in keeping with this government's emphasis on preventive and supportive social services. Mr. Speaker, I know that all these services - in fact have cost money.

In fact I remember last year - was it last year? - or whenever it was when the government changed the names of the various departments, there was a sort of an outcry that they were wasting money and doing this and that and so on. ·But I think what they were doing they were organizing, and trying to bring out the importance of 7S01

May 12, 1976 Tape no. 2644 Page 3 - mw Mr. Woodrow. organizing and how much in fact this government has organized. And also it has cost money to get more social service workers and so on. But to my mind this is a way of giving employment. So I do not know in fact what any other government could have done in order to do better than this present one has. Now, ~1r. Speaker, in coming to another topic. This would be in the field of the Department of Education. I am glad my hon. friend, the Minister of Education, is in the House also.

Construction is progressing on twenty-six new schools but one-half of which were started during the current year. This was 1975 by the way.

From $11 million to $30 million will be spent on them: The provision of 250 additional teachers to school boards, most of whom were specialists and supervisors, the aonn1 , ntm~nt of a regional director of adult and continuing education in Stephenville for the purpose of developing a community college and extension of adult education programmes which now serve 9,000 adult students in evening classes - here again in fact it is certainly a step in the right direction, I speak of emphasizing especially adult education - the development and promotion of educational programmes to facilitate metrication in our high schools.

In this regard we are very much on

schedule and probably ahead of most other provinces of Canada. I just forget the amount now that was put in the estimates for this -was it $15,000? l~w much was put in for the metric system? MR. HOUSE: Twenty-seven thousand. MR WOODROW: I lmow it was. I looked it up last night. I know it was quite a figure. The appointment of three regional amateurs to encourage and promote the teaching of French in our schools. Here again in fact-this applies to, especially, the West Coast of the Province. I understand in the Port au Port area,especially in the Cape St.

George ,area some classrooms are conducted continually and daily in the French language. And I think this is really a good thing, and it shows in fact the great 7502

May 12, 1976 Tape no. 2644 Page 4 - lll1ol Mr . Woodrow. importance our Province 1s 2ivin~ to the French language. I happened to have the great pleasure of attending Laval university way back in 1940-1941-1942, and then I went on to Lovol~ in Montreal, and 1 had to get to speak the French language. It was either survive - you either had to speak it or starve at the table. We started off by making signs. One, for example, pass the butter, you would do this, the coffee something like this, but we soo n found out that we had to get out and spe.ak the language with the boys, and it soon became a par t of us.

And I certainly hope that this government will do all they can to encourage and foster the use of the French language in our Province. Now, of course , the extension of the free textbook policy to include Grade VII and Grade VIII in all the schools of the Province, they could have done this in a different way, but this is the way the government decided to do it, and 1 think it certainly has helped the children of the Province in no small way. A generous increase of the student aid programme especially for all students beyond first year at an extra cost to the Province of over $1 .5 million.

And, of course, generous increases in school grants and so on. 750 J

".ay 12, 1976 IB-1 PP • H001)1'0l.J: I knoH, ~·r. Speaker, I realize in this time of austerity, of restraint •·Te had to - the government T should say - had to cut dmro this year. nut I mn sure thnt they are really going to dn al] they can tOP<lrcls the rleve] opment of education in our Province. In the matter of public ••arks, r~r. Speaker, roads and the ] ike, Pel] I can say, ~'r.

Speaker-.and I have saifl th:! s the first tit!'e T spoke in the House - T can say that I am <~.bJe to Clrive in the Day of Islands district froTP one encl of the B<~y of Islanfls c'istrict to the other over a pave<' road and I thank the hon. me!'lber for ~;illingate (''r. Smalhroocl). h'hen he was Premier I th"!nJ.· he probably realizes hor~ 0ften I hacl t.n get after him for paving anc1 so on, and I must say, you knm,•, that he was TI(\t too bad, he waR abvays very ldnd and he faced the situation ''ery well.

I a]Hays like to think of that portion of the road from Cooks Brook,a distance of ten mi]ef', to Frenchman's rove. This is the part of the ro.ad that he paved. I think at the time Eric Jones ~'aS the 1'in:!ster of Highways. Charlie Ballam was our member and T went to see hil'1, I think, at one time in Jn] y and, by ~olly, in fact by the end - that was in 1966 I hel ieve. nf c-ourse it t<•as an election vear. Tl1at is besir1e the point. But in any caRe hv ]CHi"' that part of the roarl was cflmplete]y paver.

I lll·e to ~ive c-redit ~rhe-r-e credit is c'lue. ()f rourse then alan?. the North shore the roads are paved as well. MR ROBERTS• You should be ready to move on to a new district. Y~. •·ronn-rov: l!e]], you know, t~herever the Lorr' Renc'ls me. ~·'R. 1'013EPTS: 0r el Re you can give me a hand. ''F. flOODPOvT: Fell, you know, in fact I have gone into worse places tha.n your district. I certainly have. I have been - '"' Sl 'AI.U100D : In what capacity. Well; all I can say is rieht you are. You know that. You know 'l'lhat capacity. It was very harc1. In fact T travelled by b0rtt.

You know, seasick many :! s the time. ~~any is the time in fact - v waybe the hon. Yinister of the En"lronment kno•.rs from tn•.velling on the f'.outh coast. r~ayhe he travel Jed there in boats sometill'es and how

Yay 12, 1976 Tape 2645 TB-2 MR. WOODROW: c1:ifficult it ,,,as p:etting say frol" Harbour Rreton up to "a.T"ea or up to !lurp.;F'o lvhatever the case may be. So probably I shonl c1 say that - ~ro • M!Tl'J'HY : He had no airplanes jn those days. MR. WOODROW: Tncleeif "'e r:lc1 not. '!'hat is right. "flut I 111ust ailmit that I riil not go on dog team. I was never stationed on the Northeast coast of the Province 1,•l1ere the hon. "inister of l'anpower is stati.onecl. But I tmderstanrl. in that pRrt of the Province many of the cJ er~y hacl to use on many occasions dog t.eams.

In fact I remember -I am probably driftin!' away from the subject now, but it all,! suppose, has a part to c'lo with it - I remember the late ~'onsignor Brennan tellinp- us that he had to go 300 mtJ es. It would ta}·e him roughly speaking - probably I am wrong in 300 mtles - ~m. NOLA"!: ~lr. Speaker, a point of order. Excuse me. !"!'. SPEAKF:l': A point of orner has ~een raiser. >'!1. NOT.AJT: The point of orcer is simply this. There are four conversations p;cing on in the 1-!ouse.

Now if those members co not ,,·ant to hear 1vhat the hon. mP.mber :fs s11.ying,maybe they might absent themselves ,but I ~muld Hl<e to hear 1vhat he is saying and I a in sure other bon. members would too, ~'r. Speaker. SO>'E UON. ~ffi~'BE'tS: Hear, hear! MR. WOODROW: llR. "SPEAKE!?: Thank you very much. Order, pJ ease! No doubt hon. l"embers will take note of the point macle. HR. WOODROW: ~'ons:f gnor Brennan used to tel J 111e that - 1 should not say 300 111il es. I probably would be 1ying there, but s11.v an'{T,•here fro111 neer Lake up to Port au r.hoix and even beyon~ and on to Bir~ Cove.

It wou.ld take him about three months on dog team and the 1 i.ke. So I am anxious to hear my hon. friend from Eagle l!iver {Hr. Strachan). ~1Jl. STrM'HAN: Blowinp: in the ,,:f.nd you are. MR. WOODROW: nf course in the "'ind, naturally ves. But in the Surn!'ler of course you had to go by hoat. It ~'as almost just as difficult, especially if somebody could not take the sea.

J.'ay 12, 1976 Tape 2645 U.-3 r·'P.. SPEAKER: Order, please! I should remind the hon. member that he has approximately one minute remaining of his twenty-five. MR. lvOODROW: Pell, Yr. Speaker, thank you very much. I intendec1 goinr. 1nto some other various nepartments. For example,I had the Department of Public l·1orks ancl Services here in ..,jnd. But I want to say, "r. Speaker, that I have confidence in the Progressive ronservatjve Government. Ile::..r~ he~r! MR. WOODROW: T think they have rlone l'ln arlrni.rabJe .inb for the Province of r:ewfound1 ;tnd anc1 Ll'lhraclor.

I Clo not th:lnl< that the motlon that :Is on the floor is worthy of beinp. passed. Thank vou, ~·r. Spe<tker. Sm'E HON. 1-lE~'BF.PS: 1lear, hear! HR. SPEAKER.: ~TP ~1CNEIL: The han. merrher for :"tephenville . lfr. Speaker, 1 ~·ould l:lle to speak briefly :In favour of the motion put forwaro hy the Leader of the Oppositi.on. In so iloing I vJi11 refer to my <'listrict as there is great concern in Stephenville ahout development and p,rowth. Before thf' area of Stephenville chan!'ecl l·lith the arrival of the Americl'lns, the people of the area were accustomer to a J.jfe baseil on the]r nRtural resources.

They '''orked as farmers, f:lshE'rl'len and loggers. Pistor:lcall y the people of Stepl1envi lle have been, and continue to he, honest and harcl Horl':!ng and with jnst cause. The quality of Ji.fe wl'ls di.splayecl by the lar!'e houses and bem.ttiful garilens surrounding them. These surroundinp;s attest to the fact that the early settlers 1~ere self-support in?, they believecl in themselves, in theit' abilities and :In the future. Th1s faith jn the future not only in my district of Stephenville but throughout Ne••foundland had been we<tkened. Let us look at this phenomenon and try to ascertain the cause.

Why is this att:ltn<le so prevalent? Why do our people lack confidence in the future? Hhy do they Jack faith in industria] grm~th in this Province of ours? raul<) the reason 7 ~0 I)

"ay 12, 1976 Tape 2645 lB-4 '1' . ''CNED. : be that the people see no con ne ct ion bct\,•ee n inclustr1.ali.zat1C\n and utilization of our n;~tu-clll resources? ! say that the people of my dist r ict and indeed of all of !'!ewfoundlnnd and Labrador have lost faith in t he Prog ress i ve ronservat:lve government of this Provi nc e . ~()~'F. 110.:-1. •'f''BEPS : Fear, he11r! They have lost fai t h si~~ly because this r.overn~nt has not pr onucetl any c'j rect 1 Cln fo r tlevel opment :mel .rrowth.

T'1e people of my distr:lct can point to the gr ePt nul"ber oF industriAl failures, not only :In the Stephenville a r ea hut in the vhole of Nevfouncllnnd. There have been numerous :Industries that hnve faflecl on the llaTl"on Col!lplex , <~11 of \lh:lch •·e're unde r the ~ur:lstliction c-f the Harrr.on rorpo -cation . \!hat d:lcl t l>e corpor ation lad-? Tn this resnecr I str onr,lv reco~end to th~ rovernoeot the a ppointme n t of 11n indus trial relations office r to the sr~ff of the l'a rnon C.or poratinn .

In my clistri.ct the people feel that Sltch an officer •·oult 1 p1dc'e the rate of :-ro.,.th and the type of prot-·tl h(;:st suit eel to the "Tea . Tl-th illustrll res the faH ure of the pr esent ~ove rnme nt to pr ('lmo te anc! l'l~t1ntflin industrial c'eveloptl'ent. Althourh l aJ!1 th1mkful to the ~overmrenc for its c:c-!"'1"1ttr.ent to the Lab r ador Linerboard ,J feel the p.overnment is ne-t rloin~ ennu~h to cu-rb rhe peJOs:lmi,st attiturle that ede~ts in and arouorl the l'lill and the <'istdct . l~e are tnld it is one of thP finesr mill" in ":mnc'R, 1-•hi.cb H indeed is .

But on the other hand \o'e are coln rh11t it will neve r he a v iable operatio n. The "inister of l'ine" rnd rner~tY ~>i1o is the chai rrnRn l'f the lloard of Di r ectors of Lal-rR<Ior Linerboa r cl Lir'lite<' said sn hi,.self. Phy? ls it the futu r e of Ne~·f.ouncland t h?.t t he ~ove rn men t lacks confic' enc:e in or is it in themselves? I. th ink the p.overn!T'en t should do itse 1 f as ~·ell 11s Net·•foundl;m(l mor e service if it •·"ere l'10re positive in its apprnRc:h to the !"any prohler~< of Ne,.,foundland ' s indust r ies . 7507

May 12, 1976 Tape No. 2646 Nl'l - 1 ~.!... MCNEJ_~ Although 1 respect the han. Minister of Mines and Energy highly I think he is doing an iniustice to cast a doom and gloom shadm~ over Labrador Linerboard mill's operation. I am the first to admit that all is not well 1vith Labrador Linerboard. But neither is all lost. If the hon. minister continues to seek solutions to the mill's problems he will meet 1vith success. The secret of success is perserverance. The han. minister may feel at this time that economic factors are a gainst the mill meeting with economic success. Maybe at the moment he is right.

But rernember.time and effort make a great difference. And I believe there are solutions and the Stephenville mill can be viable if its many problems are tackled in the right manner. I believe these problems are solvable. I think the government should stress that the ernplovees of Labrador Linerboard Limited from the janitor to the nresident make the difference. People make the difference in any pro .iect. I refuse to acce?t any doom and gloom shadowings on Ne~Jfoundland's own mill in Stephenville which is onlv a part of NewFoundland's economy.

Just as Stephenville desperately needs an industrial relations officer to J:\Uide its grmvth and development 1so does Labrador Linerboard mill employees need confidence in the industry in which they work. This confidence they seek can he given to them only by the owner, the Government of Ne1vfoundland. I, therefore, believe that a select committee should be appointed so that we may find the kind of economic growth and development most desired by the people of Newfoundland and Labrador.

The points I have put forward show clearly that the people of Ne1-1foundland,and in particular in my district, are beginning to lack confidence in themselves and in the future of their Province. Therefore, I reca.mend the government set up this committee immediately. MR . __ s~~-~: Is the liouae ready for the question? CAI'TAIN_¥INSOR: Mr. Speaker - MR. SPEAKER...:__ The hon. member for Fogo.

May 12, 1976 Tape No. 2646 NM - 2 CAPTAIN 1UNSOR: - -------- -- I find myself in an aw~ard position at this time to rise to support the motion which is on the Order Paper stating that a select committee be appointed to enquire into and report upon the prospects of Newfoundland and Labrador including the prospects for economic growth .and development and in particular consideration of those types of development which are best suited - and I think that is the important part here- developments which are best sui ted to foster and to encourage the way of life moat desired by the people of Newfoundland and Labrador.

Now, Mr. Speaker, we on this side of the House have been accused of not suggesting or recommending to the ~overnment any way to improve the development of this Province or to increase the employment opportunities of this Province but I would say, Sir, here is a way in which now we feel that we can make a recommendation to the government and if followed up it may bring results. There is nothing '~rong, Mr.

Speaker, with a committee going and travelling around this Province into many communities to learn from the people themselves, learn from the people who are involved in the life of that particular community, because, Mr. Speaker, they can provide the opportunity for businessmen , the private seccor and even the ordinary man on the street,and out of all of the opinions which they may get together some good may come. Because , Mr. Speaker, certainly there is a great need for a revitalization of some of the vitality that we used to know in some of the outports in this Province. AN HO!:!_._-""!Ef!B_ER: Hear! Hear!

CAPTAIN WIN§.O_!:_ I recall, Mr. Speaker , a few years ago my family together with one or two merchants in this Province were tryin g to get plans for the construction of a refrigerated vessel and, Sir, we went to Shelburne, Lunenburg and it was no trouble in ~etting plans. 750~

May 12, 1976 Tape No. 2646 NM- 3 CAPTAIN \HNSOR: However the plans were obtained and were brought back, by the way I was living in Wesleyville at that time, they were brought back and my father one day ran into a gentleman by the name of Allan Vincent from Cape Freels, next door, and he said, "Skipper Josh," he said, "You know I can build that boat," and yet this gentleman could not read or write.

He said, "I can build that boat," and he said, "I will take it on rne." My father said, "Do you mean that?" He said, "I absolutely mean it and I will take the chance on building that boat." So he did and that boat turned out to be one of the vital links during the war years between Newfoundland and the other provinces, transporting fresh fish. It was one of the first local boats ever built in Newfoundland to carry refrigerated cargoes back and forth from the United States, Nova Scotia and Newfoundland.

As a matter of fact the three people involved in that boat were Monroe, the man ~ge heard so much about yesterday,and a gentleman by the name of Davis and my father. So when the boat was ready for launching they decided upon the naming and they wondered how they were going to arrive at a name. So they decided to take the first two letters out of the shareholders' names.

They took the "Wi" out of Winsor and the "Da" out of the Davis and the "Mo" out of Monroe and the vessel was christened "Hidmoa." And that vessel, Sir. operated a great many years carrving refrigerated cargo back and forth~and I think if the hon. the Premier were in his seat now he may recall that I think his father started a boat by the name of the "Senate" - that had participated in such an operation. But this is just to show what can be found within our local area.

Now, Sir, last Fa~l I was at Port aux Basques and while I was there there was a Norwegian ship there discharging herring barrels, 2,000 herring barrels, I think it was discharging for Hardy, I think, he had the barrels brought in,and I said to a fellow at the dock, "What is 7~10

May 12, 1976 Tape No. 2646 NM- 4 CAPTAI~INSOR~ the problem you cannot get those barrels in Newfoundland?" He said, "There is no problem. He just cannot get them, that is all. They are not made here." I said, "Is there anything special about the barrel? Is the wood hardwood?" "No," he said, "The only thing that is different that I can see is that those barrels are waxed inside." Now surely if that is the only problem there should not be too much of a problem to get all the wax that is needed to wax those barrels and make them tight and enable them to be used for shipping herring.

And we are using thousands and thousands of herring barrels and I am sure many of us can recall the good old days when we went to places such as Herring Neck, TWillingate, Englee and all over the place,and Fogo, when you went to the cooper's loft when they were making all kinds of barrels, fish barrels and the plaees were hives of activity, all being carried on by local people,and they were not making much money but they were a sure hanpy bunch, and they wer~ making a living. They were making an existence.

I '~ould not say much of a living,but they were very happy and contented and that is what we do not have today in many of the great industries. ~ut those people were labourers, yet they were professionals in their m~n type of trade. So, Mr. Speaker, this is the sort of thing we have to get back to to try to create local initiative, local industry and local participation because, Sir, 7511

May 12, 1976 Tape No, 2647 NM- 1 CAPTAIN WINSOR: when you have that kind of work and activity in any community you have a feeling of happiness and a feeling of contentment and a feeling that they are all contributing something toward the economy of this Province. Now, Mr. Speaker, I would say that since this government has taken over I do not know, there probably has not been one sin?,le new dollar created. MR. RIDEOUT: Not one, not one. CAPTAIN WINSOR: Not a single new dollar created in this Province and that is a sad affair, Mr. Speaker.

When you think that of all we are doing now is spending monies that come in through goverments, the federal government and the payrolls and the what have you from the employment of government but certainly there is no main industry. I do not know of any new industry started this last four years in St. John's. The fish plant on the Southside which was brought into existence by the former previous government, but Sir, apart from that there is certainly nothing exciting or no creation of any new dollars in this city of St. John's.

But those are areas, Sir, where we have to pump in, where we are-what is it~-drawers of water and use~s of wood so to say and we are sapping you know, the economy dry and we are not replacing it with any new dollars and new dollars are very important and very essential. Then on one of the programmes, I believe it is "Land And Sea" a little while ago I saw where the Salt Fish Corporation or the salt fish in Nova Scotia was packed in little pound boxes, wooden boxes made from the wood which they produce in Nova Scotia and it ranges from one pound up to I suppose perhaps f!fty or one hundred pounds.

And the fish there was packed in wooden boxes. Now we have done away with all the wooden boKes. We do not even get the 3X biscuits that we used to get in the good old wooden box anymore. You know it is all cardboard. MR. MURPHY: You do not have to make splits anymore either 7S12

May 12, 1976 Tape No. 2647 NM- 2 MR. MURPHY: to start the fire see. CAPTJI.IN WINSOR: Well some people do in their grates. You have to use it in your grates sometimes if you are going to light a fire. However, these are the areas where I think we should be concentrating on and you know we are shipping all of our fish out by cardboard cartons. Now I do not know if we - we have a linerboard mill at Stephenville and we are cutting all kinds of wood in Labrador and on the Island of Newfoundland.

I do not know if there is any minister on the other side who can tell me whether that cardboard is used for cardboard cartons which we are sld.pping our fish out in? If it is not why can it not be? MR. MURPHY: Do we not have a cardboard container industry here in St. John's. CAPTAIN WINSOR: Where is the raw material 1 you kn