Manitoba Hansard — 16 April 1985 (Sitting 28B, 32nd Legislature, 4th Session)

32-4-28b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, 16 April, 1985. Time - 8:00 p.m. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY- HIGHWAYS AND TRAN SPORTATION MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santoa: Commi ttee please come to order. We are now on Item No. 6.(a)( 1), Driver and Vehicle Licensing, Management Services: Salaries; 6.(a)

(2) Other Expenditur es. The Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, just for the record I think I should raise an Issue that because of press and other things has become a bit of a well-known Item in my area, and that is the problem of a lady in Virden who had a motorized chair.

I call it a motorized wheel chair, but this lady has no end of problems because of innum erable regulations that have been set up. 1 wanted to ask the Min ister, really, are all of the regulations that we have in the department absolutely necess ary, or are we just trying to snow the public under with a mass of regulations and really all they do is create frustra tion and serve no useful purpose? 1 want to say that, Mr. Chairman, from an opening position, because this is the case of a Mrs.

Strachan, who, three years ago, because of her inability to move very well in society , was presented with a cycle chair by her brother in the States. I don't know how it all started, maybe somebod y submit ted a report or something but it was brought to the department's attention and through various correspondence she was, on the 16th of January, sent a letter listing all of the things that she had to do for her vehicle. lt was called a mobility vehicle. Now I like that term. I think that's a very good term. it's now .. . A MEMBER: I think it has a ring to it too. MR. H.

GRAHAM: lt has a very nice tone to it, a mobility vehicle. lt is stated in the letter and it comes from a Mr. Patrick Rougeau, Assistant Admin istrator of Vehicle Inspections. lt says, "The equi pment not In complian ce is as follows: (

a) a red reflector at the rear of not less than 8.89 centimetres" - 2 decimal points - "in diameter in addition to the tail-light." A MEMBER: We'll make it 9. MR. H. GRAHAM: I don't care whether it's 9 centimetres or 7 centimetres, but somehow it's got into the regulations that it has to be 8.89 centimetres. "(

b) the brakes on the so-called mobility vehicle must operate on front and rear wheels. In this case the braking force is by means of the electric motor 'showing' the vehicle to a stop." I think it should say "slowing," but that's a typographical error I suspect "(

c) the mobility vehicle must have a speedometer; (

d) the mobility vehicle must have a speedometer; (

d) the mobility vehicle must have a horn; (

e) the mobili ty vehicle must be equipp ed with a rear-view mi rro r. No w, if all of the following requirements for equipme nt are to be met, it could then be registered as a mobi lity vehicle for operation by a physically handicapped person. If you require any further information please feel free to contact this office at 945-4603." Mr. Chairman, I believe Mrs. Strachan might have replied to that. I did not get a copy of any reply. She did write to the Member of Parliament and through the whole thing, I was In contact with Mr.

Rougeau, and at that time I had suggested to the department that, rather than have all of these regulations, as long as a mechanic was willing to sign a certificate of roadworthiness, tha t should be all that Is required to license it. That Is all tha t Is required in a used vehicle, a used car. If you buy a used car from a third party, as long as the mechanic signs the certificate of roadworthi ness, the department will licens e it. Apparently , that Isn't the case or it must apply only to certain vehicles. lt didn't apply in this particular case.

I believe that eventually the department, because of publi city of this whole thing, has maybe relented or chang ed things a bit. I understand at the present time that Mrs. Strachan will have no problem having the vehicle registered. Mr. Chairman, it seems rather strange to me that the vehicle has to be registered because lt cannot exceed 12 mph In speed and yet there are numerous bicycles on the road today that can exceed 12 mph In speed and we don't require them to be registered. Now, I'm not advocating that we register bicycles. That is not my intention at all, Mr.

Chairman, but I do find it rather strange that here we are as a Legislature trying to do things that make it easy for people to live in society and somehow the regulations that we pass, albeit with good intentions probably , end up really frustra ting the public and causing a 9reat deal of ill feeling and nuis ance to socie ty. 938 1 would like to ask the Minister if it is the intention of his department to continue to pass more and more regulations dealing with vehicles and licences and all the rest of it or whether or not he has some Idea of maybe stream lining thin gs, simplif ying them and removing a lot of the regulations rather than imposing more?

HON. J. PLOHMAN: I think, first of all, I've been negligent In not introducing the staff that was here In all cases, and I think it's important to do tha t for the members' awareness of the staff that are Involved. John Rea Is sitting at the back, from Transportation Division, Director; Slggl Goodbrandson, you all know probably , a long-time Director of Operations; Bill Dyck, the Director of Admin istration; Wally Kurz, Highway Safety and Dan Coyle, I introduced a few days ago as the new Registrar and also Don Norquay, who's the new Chairman of the Motor Transport Board, whom

Tueaday, 16 April, 1985 most of you may not have met previously, as well as Boris Hryhorczuk. Particularly, I wanted to have the opportunity to introduce our new Chairman of the Motor Transport Board today who we talked about last year before he was even in place, and he was hired in October, I believe, of 19 84. In terms of the issue raised by the Member for Virden, 1 have been made very aware of the circumstances surrounding the particular case that he's referring to. 1 think there's some information that the member had incorrectly stated on this issue that I want to clarify.

Last year, he may recall that we brought in the amendments to The Highway Traffic Act dealing with the whole area of mobility vehicles and mobility aids and after extensive consultation with the Canadian Paraplegic Association and the Manitoba League for the Physically Handicapped, it was felt that we should bring in some provisions to recognize, in a formal way, the mobility requirements of handicapped people so that they could be licensed and registered and therefore insured under the provisions of The Highway Traffic Act and the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation so that they would have the same protection as other motorists.

Previousl y, a person in a wheel chair was not recognized officially as a pedestrian and in this case, with the new legislation, all motorized wheel chairs that travel at less than a speed of 15 kilometres an hour were recognized as mobility aids and were classed as pedestrians under this new legislation.

All mobility vehicles over 15 kilometres, as they're called, that travel less than 50 kilometres an hour are classified as mobility vehicles and have the right to operate on the road system, on the streets and roads and on the highways that are under 80 kilometres, but under a certain speed limit were registerable for a use on hig hways and streets and so on, in the province.

We put that act into place last year to recognize the legitimate need that was there. l should say that they were classified the same as mopeds, which have been in place and officially recognized under The Highway Traffic Act for a number of years, so they could be registered, licensed and insured under that act.

However, this particular situation involved what was really a motorized wheel chair or a mobility aid, being required to be classified as a mobility vehicle, because it simply had a maximum speed capacity of over 15 kilometres an hour - I understand it was 19 kilometres an hour - and in that case the particula r piece of equipment had to meet the req uir ements of a mobili ty veh icle including a speedometer, reflectors, brakes and so on.

Of course the registrar, under the present act, could not register that particular vehicle as a mobility vehicle unless it complied with all of the requirements as set out in The Highway Traffic Act and as they apply to mopeds.

As we've seen with one year of experience - we've had very limited experience at this time because there are very few of these that have been registered in the pro vince, although there are some, and und oubtedly over the years there will be more handicapped people who wish to register their mobility vehicles - there are some particular situations that are particularly bothersome to individuals.

In this case, this perso n, because it was capable of going a few 939 kilometres an hour over the maximum speed for mobility aids, had to comply with all of these requirements and we're going to propose a change to the act that will allow more flexibility in licensing these vehicles for use on the highways. I think that will go some distance to meeting the kinds of concerns raised by the honourable member.

However, in this particular case, I understand it was resolved by simply putting a governor on the particular equipment so that it could not travel faster than 15 kilome tres an hour and therefore did not have to be registered. That is what has happened in this case, that she will simply continue to be able to operate this mobility aid, because it will be then incapable of moving faster than 15 kilometres an hour, will continue to operate that as a pedestrian would - have the same rights and privileges as a pedestrian.

But for those vehicles that travel faster than 15 kilometres an hour, there will be some flexibility in what is required in registering those, with the new provision in the act, if it's accepted by caucus and by the House. So, l intend to bring in some changes there to facilitate the situation and to prevent this kind of thing from happening in the future, but it is a new area. l can mention that no province has provision for the registering of mobility aids and mobility vehicles by handicapped people.

We are a leader in that area, and when that happens, of course, there are bound to be some situations de velop perhaps that need straightening out in the future and that's what we're doing here. This was introduced last year in the Legislature and, I think, it's been been well received by the handicapped commun ity. We regret that this particular vehicle, which was manufactured outside of the country, did not comply with the limits that were set out in the act and, therefore, we're going to provide more flexibil ity. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr.

Chairman, just in case the Min ister might have inadvertently giv en wrong information, may I go back and ask him again, did he say that she would not be required to register it? HON. J. PLOHMAN: That's correct. If the maximum speed is not more than 15 kilometres an hour, she will not be required to register and, therefore, will be able to operate it as a mobility aid in the same way, with the same rules that apply to pedestrians. MR. H. GRAHAM: That prompts a further question.

Then that means that this person can be on the road driving an unr egistered vehicle, and since it is unregistered, l imagine she would not be able to get any insurance. Is that correct? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: My understanding is that the situation would remain unchanged from what is has been in the past, that as a pedestrian, she would be able to operate on sidewalks, cross streets in the same manner that a pedestrian would and use pedestrian corridors and crosswalks with the mobility aid, but she would not have to register it as a vehicle and have it licensed anc1 insured under The Highway Traffic Act. it's only mobility vehicles that must be licenced and registered.

Tuesd ay, 18 April, 1985 With the flexibility of the amendment that we're proposing, she would be able to register it as a mobili ty vehicle if she so desired without complying with every one of those particular stipulations that the member outlined here earli er, providing the registrar agrees he would have flexibility to register even those vehicles or those mobility aids, as they would be classified, as a mobili ty vehicle as well. MA. H.

GAAHAM: So, what the Mini ster is telling me at the present, she is not able to register it or get any insurance, but the Mini ster has said that they will be bringing in amendments which would then allow her to register and insure it and have the protection of that insurance. Is tha t correct? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, even though it would not meet all of the stipulations for a moped as outli ned in the act. MA. H. GAAHAM: Well, Mr.

Chairman, if this particular incident has done nothing other than bring the matter to the government's attention and the government is willing to consider changes, then I have to commend the government for reacting. However, Mr. Chairman, I would refer the Mini ster back to my original state ment, that it appears as though we are continually adding more and more restrictions and more and more regulations rather than removing regulations.

This causes me further concern because I presume, and I'm going to ask the Min ister this question, if it is a registered vehicle would she then be required to have a valid driver's licence? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, first of all, Mr. Chairman, that option is available to her and I think the member just agreed that he felt it was an advantage to an individual to be able, where she or he previously did not have that opportun ity, to register a vehicle and have it insured. So that's an advantage; that's a choice that is available and an option that's available to a person in Mrs. Strachan's particular situation.

I think that's a step forward that she has that opportunit y. This certainly has been well-r eceived and recommended by the League for the Physically Hand icapped and by the Canadian Paraplegic Associat ion.

If she registers her particular equipment as a mobili ty vehicle, she would be requi red to meet certain licensing standards, obviou sly, to operate this vehicle on the roadways of the province and, therefore, it would have to meet minimum licensing standards for a Class 5.0 rest ricted licence. lt would be the same as a moped 's licence requirement that an individual would have and is conducted, I unde rstand, in a parking lot environment to determine the skills that she has in operating it.

I think that's a good thing and the member would agree that it's positive because we want to reduce injuries and deaths on the hi ghways. Obviously, the person involved should be competent in operating the particular vehicle that she or he is venturing out with. MA. H. GAAHAM: Mr. Chairman, in order to get a licence, I imagine there would be a particular test and exam that a person would have to take. I would realize that it would not allow them to drive a five-axle truck 940 or anything of that nature.

Has the Mini ster a copy of the test that would be required for that person to take in order to pass a driver's test? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I don't have it with me but there would be a written test, a vision test that would required similar to a person applying for a licence for any vehicle and it would have specific restrictions dealing with the particular mobili ty vehicle that the person Is registered with so that they could operate that particular vehicle. Their licence would be restricted to operation of· tha t particular vehicle. MA. H. GAAHAM: Mr.

Chairman, where would a person have to go to take that particular test? HON. J. PLOHMAN: The mobile testing units would suffice and they're operating in various commun ities throughout the province. They come out to provide testing to people in various commun ities and they would be able to accommodate this particular situation·. MA. H. GAAHAM: Mr. Chairman, will the Minister provide me with a copy of the test that is required to be taken in order to qual ify for a licence to drive one of these vehicles? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: If the member has ever written the written test for a driver's licence, he would already have access to that information. it's the same written test that any person would take in applying for a licence because they have to know the rules of the road and that would be the same test that you or I would take in quali fying for a licence. MA. H. GAAHAM: Mr.

Chairman, that is the very thing that causes me concern, because it is my belief that this person has been advised - and I don't know who has offered the advice - it may have been the RCMP, it may have been someone else - but they have suggested to her that when she is using this vehicle on the road that she drive on the opposite side of the road, facing oncoming traffic. Is tha t the correct advice that should be given to her? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: If it's a mobili ty aid and therefore not classified as a mobility vehicle, she would have the same requi rements as a pedest rian in operating this and adhere to the same rules of the road as a pedestrian would when walking on a roadway. MA. H. GAAHAM: Mr. Chairman, the Min ister just told me that the same test that applies to an ordinary person applying for a driver's licence would be the test that she would take.

Yet, if she Is operating this vehicle licensed, she would then have to drive on the right side of the road, but if she drives it unli censed, she would have to drive on the left side of the road . Is that correct? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, in most cases that would be two different vehicles and in all cases . . . MA. H. GAAHAM: No, it's the same vehicle. HON. J. PLOHMAN: lt would be two different vehicles. In the case of the vehicle being registered as a mobili ty

Tueaday, 18 April, 1985 vehicle, it would be operable on the highw ays in the same way that any other motor vehicle would be operated, and generally that is between 15 and 50 kilometres an hour . lt could not go over 50, as any slow moving vehicle or a moped would be classified, and no less than 15 kilometres an hour . That would then be registerable as a mobility vehicle and would have the same rules apply as any other vehicle on the road.

If it is classified as a mobility aid, she would not have to register, would not have to take a driver's test and would not be required to license and register it and would operate it the same as a pedestrian would. MR. H. GRAHAM: And if she operated it that way, she could not get insurance. Is that correct? HON. J. PLOHMAN: She's classified as a pedes trian. 1 don't know if pedes trians get insurance. MR. H. GRAHAM: Let's get this thing straight again. If she operates it as a mobility vehicle, it must travel more than 15 miles an hour. Is that correct? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Kilometres an hour. MR. H.

GRAHAM: Kilometres. HON. J. PLOHMAN: lt must be able to travel more than 15 kilometres an hour. MR. H. GRAHAM: But we und erstand that it has been reduced in speed , so it can only go nine kilometres an hour now. I believe that has been done to the vehicle. HON. J. PLOHMAN: I'm not sure it's nine; I heard 12, but I'm not certain. MR. H. GRAHAM: So, Mr. Min ister, now it is impossible for her to register it, because it is operat ing below 15 kilometres. Is that correct? HON. J. PLOHMAN: If it's not operating above 15 kilometres an hour, it would not be registered as a mobility vehicle.

The staff would certainly want to discuss with her, since it can be altered, can be changed, in terms of its maximum speed, whether she wanted it to be registered as a mobility vehicle and operate on the roads in the customary fashion or whether she wanted it to continue to operate, as she seems to have indic ated, so that she wouldn't have to comply with the other requirements, that she could operate it in the same way that a pedes trian would conduct themself, then it would not be registerable. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr.

Chairman, we're talking about a 77- or a 78-yea r-old lady who is severely ham pered In her ability to walk, who without this vehicle has to rely on a taxi to get her wherever she goes. She lives on her old age pension. That's her only source of income and all she wants is to be able to go down and get her mail and her groceries once a week. Having said that then, regulations and the laws of this country seem to come into place and there have been a series of roadblocks placed in front of her. We 941 have attempted to remove some of them.

However, we now find that if she wants to have it registered , it now has to be increased in speed so it has to go over 15 kilome tres. HON. J. PLOHMAN: That's what it did. MR. H. GRAHAM: That's what she has to do in order to get insurance because she does want protect ion. That's the only means of travel she has other than hiring a taxi.

At the same time, you're asking a little old lady who obviously is nervous, 77 or 78 years old, to take the very first driver's licence test she's ever had in her life and, to begin with, she doesn't know whether she should be on the left hand side of the road or the right hand side of the road. lt all depends whether she registers her vehicle. So right away we have two sets of conditions, depending on whether you want to register it or not; so I would ask the Min ister HON. J. PLOHMAN: She has to register it to get insu rance. MR. H.

GRAHAM: She has to register it to get insurance, but we seem to be putting more and more roadblocks and regulations in front of people and all they want to do is go and get their groceries and get their mail. Mr. Chairman, I go back again to my very first comments. I would ask the Minister to seriously consider removing regulations and freeing things up, rather than continually placing roadblocks in front of people, because what you're doing is causing confusion and frustration in the minds of the public and it does not bode well for the Province of Manitoba. So, Mr.

Chairman, I would ask the Min ister to seriously reconsider the proposals that he is putting forward , because to me it just doesn't make sense, that if you register it, you've got to drive on the right-hand side of the road and if you don't register it you have to drive on the left-hand side of the road. Can the Minis ter come up with something a little more consistent so that the people of Manitoba would know and so that members of this Assembly would know.

Right now, it is a state of total confusion and the Min ister has not, in their attempt - and I give them credit for trying to solve the problem - but I don't think you've solved it, I think you've compounded it. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, I don't know that we've compounded it. The basic decision that this person has to make is whether she wants to have a vehicle to drive or not. If she wants a vehicle to drive, then it has certain requir ements and it can be registered and insured. Previous to this law coming into effect, she could not insure it or have it registered for use on the roadway.

So if the member is concerned that there's a problem with insur ance, there's one of the advantages of this law that can1e into effect last year. If she decides that ·she dons r t v•ant to go through the requirements of a driver's te�t. as any individual, no matter what their age, if they Jecide that they want to operate a motor vehicle on t'1e hi ghway system, they have to make that

Tuaad ay, 18 April, 1985 decision; whether they want to go through and study for it and meet all the requir ements of a driv er's test - that's one of the decisions they make when they decide they want to drive. Some people who are quite old decide to do that, because the circumstanc es in their life change for whatever reason, and they decide they want to operate a motor vehicle. She can make that choice.

In this particular situation if she decides she does not want to go through that, she can continue to have it as any pedestrian - operate it as a pedestrian - as a wheel chair and have it as a mobility aid which doesn't require registra tion. If she wants to get insurance on it, I'm sure tha t through a homeowner's policy of some kind people can register things that they own or they can have things that they own insur ed under a general policy. I'm sure that there are provisions there for some kind of insurance and she could explore that. But really there's no requirement at all.

If she does not travel faster than 15 kilome tres an hour , she's simply treated as a pedest rian and legitimately recognized as a pedestrian under the act, which she wouldn't have been in the past. So it's just a simple decision of whether she wants to operate it as a vehicle or as a pedestrian and that, I'm sure, can be made very clear by one of our staff in meeting with her to discuss her requirements. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the Min ister one more ques tion.

Would he consider having a special class of driver's licence with special rules or special tests which applies only to mobility vehicles? Because I would suggest to the Min ister that at the present time the present driver's test might very well be in conflict with the actual rules that would apply when she took the thing on the road. HON. J. PLOHMAN: I don't think, Mr. Chairman, that they would. I don't know if the member is suggesting that a person operating a mobility aid should be subject to a driver's test. We're not suggesting that at all.

If they get involved with a vehicle, then they have to pass the requirements and are subject to the same laws and rules of the road as other vehicles, so there's no conflict there. If she wants to be treated as a pedest rian and have the vehicle with a maximum speed of 15 kilometres an hour , then there's no requirement for any kind of a test.

Once she gets involved or he gets involved, any individual operating a vehicle on the roadway, all of us, I'm sure, would agree that the rules of the road should apply and anyone applying for a licence should meet certain basic requirements and that's all that's required now. lt is a special licence rest ricted to the use of that vehicle. The test is dif ferent, quite different than a normal practical test. The only thing that's the same is the written tests, the requirements for the rules of the road and the vision test. MR. H. GRAHAM: Well, Mr. Chairman, I won't take up the time of the committee any further .

I regret that we have used half an hour of the committee's time and we don't seem to be any closer to a solution now than we were when we started. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to this evening raise an issue with the Mini ster which has been of concern to me in the last four or five years. I think it's an outstanding issue in my area. I don't know if other parts of the province are facing the same problem.

The Member for Emerson Is here with me this evening and I know that he has got concerns about the same matter and that has to do with the driver test ing program in southeas t ern Mani toba. I would like to this evening, Mr. Chairman, maybe stick my neck out a little bit and offer the Min ister a few suggestions with regard to trying to resolve some of the problems that have arisen over the years with regard to dr iver testing and dr iver licensing in southeastern Manitoba. There seems to be a shortage of people available to do the testing.

I know myself, as well as my colleague, alm ost on a weekly basis get calls from people who ind icate to us that they have either been waiting in line and couldn't get in because there were too many people waiting. There are stories of a gentleman from Woodridge, which happens to be from the Member for Emerson's constitue ncy, said that he wanted to get his Class 1.0 licence and slept overnight in his truck right by the door, waiting to be first in line to take the test.

Just the other day, I had a group of ind ividuals tell me that people are lining up at 7 o'clock In the morning, just to be in line to take the test . 942 I know, in talking to the driver testers that come out to that area, that they are trying their best to cope with the situation, but I don't know if the workload has increased. I know the Steinbach and surrounding area has grown, as far as population is concerned, and that might have a bearing on it. But people from Steinbach will go to St. Pierre. I think people are even travelling as far as Vita now to try and get on.

I would suggest to the Min ister, I know he's faced with decreasing funds, I notice in the appropriation this year, this particular

section is receiving less funds than it did last year, which means that there's probably fewer people employed in that department and tha t they have cut back on a few areas. But I would seriously ask the Mini ster to consider that he establish a full-time driver testing unit in the Town of Steinbach. I think he could use that as maybe then a springb oard to provide better service to Vita, to St. Pierre, maybe even to the Niverville area, and thereby accommodate the requests of the constituents of southeastern Manitoba.

I will even stick my neck out a little further and suggest to the Minister, I would even go along with a $1 increase or $2 increase across the board for driver's licence testing, in order to accommodate and try and pick up the extra costs that will be incur red In providing that expanded service in our area, because it is desperately needed. And when you have people like a young mother who calls and says, I had to get a babysltter.

I went to stand in line and then I was No. 22 in the line and they only took 20 people that morning, and then she had to go home and she has to pay her babysitter for coming in and all the inc onvenience.

Tueaday, 18 April, 1985 The same thing with all the truckers and young peop!e who are required now, by law, to have that Class 1.0 licence to come in and the frustration that they get by taking time off of work and having to stand in line and having to wait in the morning. I am sure those people - all of them - would be just too happy to pay a few dollars more and be assured of the capability of being there at the right time when an appointment was made or at least have the flexibility of knowing that if they did show up, that some time during that day they would be seen.

I say to the Minister that I think there is an opportunity here. I think we have space within the government office building. Without trying to be facet ious, I notice in the road-building project that my area really didn't get anything this year. I'm wondering what a lot of the people in my district, In the Highways staff are going to be doing. I would suggest that maybe the Minis ter could use one of the offices within the Highways Department, maybe some of the secretarial staff there to take appointments.

Right now, there is an agent in Steinbach taking the appointments and I know that they would probably be just as happy if it was taken over by government because they're getting a lot of flak from people who are unha ppy with what's happe ning.

I say, without pointing the finger at anybody, because I think everybody's trying - but I think there's just either a breakdown of communications between everybody Involved or just a total lack of being able to provide the manp ower to deal with the issue, let's maybe increa se the licensing fee a little bit and then provide the service for the people so that the frustration is taken away from us. Like I said, I'll back him up if he's going to increase the rates by a couple of dollars to make sure that the service is going to be a little better, I'll be with him on that. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, I want to thank the member for the concerns that he's expressed here this evening. The Steinbach and Selkirk locations are two of the busiest mobile units in all of the communi ties in the province. There is some merit to looking at the matter of having a certain number of staff located in Steinbach to service the testing requir ements perhaps at the Steinbach Provincial Building; that's one option we're reviewing with staff at the present time. I can say though, to the mem ber, that over the last two years, even before that, there has been no reduction in staff here.

There hasn't been this year over last year an increase in demand either in terms of the nu mber of cases dealt with, so the problem mus t be back at least thr ee years tha t there was an increase in the numb er of people who are requiring licences. Over the last year, we've had this area, Steinbach, serviced twice weekly from Winnip eg with the mobile unit - 100 days of service in that area, twice weekly approxima tely. The previous year it was 96 so there were a couple of more occasions where two staff people were involved.

One of the staff people is involved in looking after the appointments and the other for looking after those people who do not have appointments. There are two systems in place - appointments and non appointments. So the people that are lining up for hours are the people that did not ask for ·or were not able to get specified appointments. Both systems are in place and the one person out of the two is looking after th ose who don't have appointment s and the other looking after those that have appointments. In addition to that, this past year, we've supplied 63 additional staff days to that area.

In the previous year it was 50, so there was an Increase there in the number of additional staff provided to deal with the heavy load at Steinbach. I'm not saying that is enough in response to the member's concerns tha t he raised, but certainly the department has been making efforts to deal with the particular situation, the heavy load at Steinbach. However, in terms of the written tests, they were down from 2,795 in 1983 to 2,723. So, there was a slight drop in the numb er of written tests. In terms of inter views, it was down from 350 to 332.

So, there was not an increase in the workload this past year and, Indeed, with the additional staff days, there must have been somewhat of a better situation this year than the previous year. That's not to say that it is sufficient, but that would ind icate that the problem has not been growing worse in this past year. I think that the suggestion that the member made, though, is worthy of consideration and we will certainly look at other ways to allevia te this situation.

Obviou sly, it's somet hing that has arisen over the last couple of years if the problem wasn't there before. 1t has not gotten worse this past year over the'83 yea r;'84 was not. worse in terms of the statistics. MR. R. BANMAN: I believe I indi cated in my statement earli er, Mr. Chairman, that this problem did not happen overnight and has developed over the last numb er of years.

I guess my biggest regret is tha t when I was in a more influential position a numb er of years ago, I, at that time, couldn't get my Mini ster of Highw ays - and I probably should have probably pushed a little harder to get him to establish a permanent testing unit out there. This is a peren nial problem, Mr. Min ister. I'm not blaming the staff of the cu rrent admini stration or the Min ister hi mself for this happe ning. it's an irritant that's out there. I'm pleading this evening with the Minis ter to seriously consider establishing a full-time dr iver testing unit in Steinbach.

Those indi viduals could then be stationed there, could live there. lt'd be a feather in the Mi nister's hat in trying to go ahead and help bring some of the services that the city people enjoy in the Winnipeg area, help bring them to rural Manitoba. I believe it would also allow those ind ividuals to give better service should they travel to Vita or St. Pierre and run those particular units on a daily basis. There is a real problem here. lt hasn't developed overnight.

Somewhere along the line, surely, we should be able to provide the people with the service that they · feel other parts of the province are getting. I would plead with the Min ister today to have a serious look at that and set up a permanent unit within Steln bach that could service the southeast adequately in a way that I think they're entitled to receive. 943 HON. J. PlOHMAN: Just on that, Mr. Chairman, at the pr ase t tim e, the dr iver test ing sect ion has permanent offices in Winnipeg, Portage la Prairie, Brandon, 0duphin, Flin Flon and Thompson.

Those have been in place for a nu mber of years. lt is true that

Tueaday, 18 April, 1985 situation changes, if communities grow, that needs change and we will look at those, particularly the cost comparisons of having the unit stationed in Steinbach with what the current situation is. Certainly, if it's closer, if it's more economical to deliver it in the way that the member is suggesting, that will be given very serious consideration. MA. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Emers on. MA. A. DAIEDGEA: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to echo the comments of the Mem ber for La Verendrye, except that I don't intend to be quite as kind as he was.

This issue has been raised the last few years and the Min ister is Ind icating that there's been a slight reduction. What has happ ened is terrible frustration out there because people have been, as ind icated by the Memb er for La Verendrye, standing in line since 7 o'clock and even overnight. We raised the same issues last year and the situation has not improved at all. What's happened is that we're talking about a population of 36,000 people involved between La Verendrye and the constituency of Emerson which is a lot of people; somebody coming out to Stein bach twice weekly and at St.

Pierre once and at Vita once, that serves that whole area. I'd like to impress on the Minis ter the problems that it creates for people who get up, working people that take time off - especially consider the impact on young kids that are eligible for their first driver's test, going two, three and four times before they finally get a chance to have a driver's test. it's a frustrating experience for them and they get frustrated with the system before they ever start.

This has been ill ustrated before and I think this is the only area that has continually raised the issue with the Minis ter and I think something should be done. Expand it, set up another office in Niverville once a week, or something like that, but that whole southeast area, a population of 36,000, as I mentioned before, all have to be serviced by four days a week in that area. How many can they handle at that time? it's not fair, it's not realistic. These are all people, once they get their licence and their registrati on, pay their fees.

You know it's not like it's a gratis thing that we're giving them something. They are prepared to pay for that. All they want is the opportunity and I suggest to the Minister that something has to be done, because there's people that take weeks on end that go down there because you can't get an appointment in St. Pierre or Vita, you cannot. You stand in line and wait. · If the Minister feels that he has any doubts about this, get out there some time and check the line-up that is waiting there, hours before anybody ever opens the door. lt is a serious problem and we've raised it for a few years now.

I want to impress on the Minis ter don't just say, well there's been a slight reduction, there's been a reduction possibly out of frustration. I suggest to the Min ister that you deal with it, because these are people that are prepared to pay, they want their licences. They don't want anything for free. They're prepared to pay their fees. Certainly the fees that they pay should justif y the fact that there should be more people there. If this was just a momentary splurge or something like that that's happening, that is not the 944 case.

This has been an ongoing problem that has developed and we're going to get very serious with this thing. I suggest to the Minister and his staff, look at what's happening out there. If he says it's dropped from 2, 700 to 2,500 or whatever in Steinbach, let him use the whole southe ast area where we have limited services in this regard, and it is a very very frustrating experience and it doesn't bode any good for the Min ister or for people that want to get their drivers.

I've had a truck drive r, to get a Class 1.0 licence, as indicated by the Member for La Verendrye, tha t stayed overnight and then when he finally had a chance to have his test, what happened? An Inspector went and checked and one of his taillights wasn't working; he had to go home with his rig, get the tallllght changed, make another appointment, and that took another month. it's that kind of thing that Is creating a frustrating situation out there.

All I'm saying is that there could have been a common sense approach in tha t particular case where the inspector could have said, well listen, I'll give you the test, get that tailllght fixed, come back and report it's fixed; give me a bill or whatever the case may be, but he wouldn't accept him. He had to go back and then try and get back on the system again and that's what's so frustrating. I want to illus trate it's a very serious matter. If this Minister thinks it's not that serious, that's fine, then we'll start rallying the troops out there and we'll make a serious matter in your mind. Thank you. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Well, Mr. Chairman, I think the Member for Emerson was . . . MA. A. DAIEDGEA: Well, I'll tell you something, you don't know what it's like. Four weeks before you can get on for a driver's licence? Come on. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, Mr. Chairman, I want to first of all thank the member. I think he was at least as polite, even though he said he wasn't going to be, as the Member for La Verendrye in this and maybe he's losing his touch in terms of really hammering these things home. MA. A. DAIEDGEA: I could change that, Mr. Chairman. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: But I want to thank him for his comments on a very serious matter. A MEMBER: Round one! HON. J. PLOHMAN: This is round one. He's warming up. The situation is the same in all of those communi ties in terms of appointm ents and non-appoint ment services. There are both services and it takes some time, I agree . . . MA. A. DAIEDGEA: The pressure isn't the same. HON. J. PLOHMAN: No, but in Vita, St. Pierre and in Emerson, in all locations, they can get an appointment. lt may mean waiting though, a period of a few weeks before that appointment time comes up, but if they do

Tuesday, 18 April, 1985 use the appointment system, they will obviously eliminate or reduce the amount of time tha t they have to be away from work. I would encourage people to do that, although I recognize that there's quite a period of time and they're hoping, by lining up, that they can get in sooner. MR. A. DRIEDGER: But they can't get appointments at Vita and St. Pierre. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, they can get appointments, but they have to wait some time. I'm told by the staff that the appointment system is the same there - (Interjection) - Yes, that there are appointments.

Now if that's not the case I hope the member will check that and tell me, because that's then contrary to the advice and information I am getting, and that is that there is an appointment system at each of these locations. They're all hand led in the same way. So that would reduce th e wa iting ti me, but I appreciate the members raising this situation. I don't recall it being raised last year during Estimates to any significant degree. We have to check Hansard, but I apologize to the Member for Emerson if he raised this matter last year, I don't recall that he stressed this point at all.

So we will certainly look at it. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Ste. Rose. MR. A. ADAM: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I wanted to raise perhaps two or three questions on the matter of dri ver testi ng. I know that we do have driver testing throughout the province, but what I wanted to ask the Min ister, I know that in the city we do have a numb er of driver training schools operated by the private sector. I'm not sure just what kind of training they provide, whether they provide training under The Highway Traffic Act, and I know tha t we have student driver training in our schools.

But what I would like to ask the Min ister, are there any driver training schools in the rural areas where rural people can have access to that? Because I find that what is difficult for some citizens is when they get on in age - and maybe just because of their age - they're asked to come in for a driver's test and really what they need is a little bit of ins truction on The Highway Traffic Act. You know, what do all these signs mean? A lot of them have driven all their lives and have never had any problems with driving, but the fact is tha t a lot of them don't know even what the signs are.

I'm just wondering whether there is any training available in the rural areas where an individual can go and get a little bit of brushing up, with some instruction with the Highway Traffic Books there and the signs on a big wall chart, showing what all these signs mean, to assist some of these individuals so that they can pass their tests when they go? Because in some cases it has happ ened that an individual has been called in for a test and has failed it, and he has been ins tructed to go back and study.

He goes back and he studies and he comes back in at a later date, to find that the test has been changed. lt's no longer the same test. There's been a variance from the first test and the individual has lost again, so he has to go back. There appears to be, if there was some training available even if he had to go and pay for it, at a certain cost so that they can get some brushing up on what all these signs mean and which light is on the top, the green one, the red one and so on at the light signs. I think tha t would certainly help many people.

Also in the driver's testi ng, if a person is unab le to write very well or maybe can't read very well, is there another type of testing such as visual testing, oral testing or interview testing and is tha t more difficult for the individual? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I appreciate the comments raised by the Member for Ste. Rose. it's obvious that there are a numb er of concerns such as the ones raised by the member. Elderly people who are very often lost in terms of the written test and have a great deal of dif ficulty with that, for whatever reason , and I've had those concerns raised with me.

There is an oral test that they can take in place of the written test so that is one provision tha t the department has put in place. In terms of the driver schools, that is a good point but they are not available in many of the rural areas simply because they are not viable there; there's not enough business for them.

The High School Driver Education Program, done through the department, encompasses most of the business that they would receive and that, of course, is limited to the school system through the Driver Education Program so there's only, I think, a couple in Brandon and one in Dauphin, in terms of the driving schools, where they could brush up and get addi tional information.

Other than that, they can use their hand book and then, with the assistance of some of their relatives or family, brush up on the information so that they could pass at least the oral test rather than a written test, so that provision is there. lt would be desirable to have this kind of service available but obviously it would be very costly for the department to attempt to provide all of tho se additional services. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I'd like to ask the Min ister whether this is the area in which I might pose some questions with respect to the Motor Vehicle Branch Annual Report and also with respect to some seat belt information tha t was deposited in his office a few days ago. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Certainly, the member could raise it at this point. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, last week in the House in question period I asked the Min ister whether he or his department would review the report prepared by a constituent of mine with respect to the report ing and collecting and classifying of motor vehicle accident inj uries.

I'm won dering if the Mini ster's had an opportunity to review that report and ind icate whether · he can cor. -nent at this time. 945 HON. J. rtOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, the department and staff arP. looking at the situation and have provided

Tuesday, 18 April, 1985 some prel imina ry in forma tion tha t there was a consultant hired in 1981, I believe, to look at the method of compiling and listing the statistics with regard to injuries and there were some recommendations for changes made at that time and that came into effect in 1982. I do not have the information on the basis for the change In decision as to the showing of the figures and once I've received that information I would be supp lying it to the House for the mem ber.

I don't have that as yet, in terms of the details of it, but there were some changes made to make the figures more accurate and they were computer changes recommended by a consultant who was engaged at that time to unde rtake the work. I believe that was done in 1981- 82 fiscal year. MR. C. MANNESS: Can the Mini ster ind icate why a consultant would be brought in to recommend changes with respect to the reporting of accidents? Can the Minis ter give me any understanding as to why that was required? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Again, I want to obtain a full report from the department on that.

I understand they were not satisfied with the way they were showing them previously and compiling those statistics and wanted to have a more representative and thorough way of doing it and so the consultant was engaged to provide that information as to how to change the programming of the compu ter in showing those statistics. I don't have the reasons for it at this particular time, but it certainly will be in the report that I receive from the department. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr.

Chairman, that's most un fortunate because, of course, right now we're provided with the one opportunity we have as members to ask some very specific questions with respect to any report under the auspices of this Min ister. I would ask whether he would be at liberty to share the report tha t may be coming to him from his department with respect to these changes? Will he be at liberty to share that report with members of the opposition? HON. J. PLOHMAN: First of all, Mr. Chairman, I want to apologize that I don't have that.

I've asked for it to be prepared in an expeditious way; it wasn't possible for the staff to have it as yet. If the mem ber had asked the question a week earlier, perhaps we would have it for this particular time, but unfortuna tely we don't. I would be pleased to provide the member with a copy of the information. I certainly feel that I would like to know what the answers are, why the changes were made. I'm not aware of any sinis ter plot or any particular reason why the statistics would have been changed, other than that they want it be represe nted more accurate ly.

That's the only information I have from the department at the present time. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman I suppose I will accept that answer; I have no alternative. However, I question the Mini ster and more indi rectly , I question the department as to how a report would come forward without mentioning the rationale for the change, because if the Min ister accepts any of the argument 946 of my constituent, one John Martens, the num bers change so drastically that usually there would be a reference within the report that would ind icate the reason for that happening . That may have occurred.

I haven't searched the report myself, but obviously the author of this report found no detailed explanation for the reason that serious injuries reportedly in creased so significant ly. My curiosity is aroused to an even greater degree because apparently there was no reference in the report to the reasons why these change s would occur. Of course, anybody who has any analytical ability who follows these reports from year to year, would notice very quickly that there had been a substantial change in num bers.

Having reviewed reports over years myself, usually there's a reason or an explanation and I would question -a t least I would hope the Mini ster would question his department - as to why that was not provided. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, that is a legitimate question. Obviously the member did not catch it last year when he went through the report, and a number of other people did not bring this particular change to the attention. it was an oversight obviously. lt should have been pointed out as to why the drastic and sign ificant changes to the figures from'81 -82 to'82-83 .

I think it can be attributed to a technical computer programming change, but it should have been pointed out as to what the new basis was for those facts and it wasn't and tha t was an oversight and it's fortunate that the member has raised this particular matter and we'll have the answers. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, could the Min ister ind icate where in these appropriations - and maybe we've passed over it - where the department is and to what degree is the department funding?

Is it somebody at the un iversity or somebody within the branch who is publicly preparing the public relations effort or extolling the virtues of seat belt usage, or is there some research being done? Where within the appropriations is this expense covered? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, Mr. Chairman, there is a joint study under the sub-agreement , the transport ation sub agreement, dealing with the effects of the recently introduced seat belt-helmet legislation in Manitoba.

This study is being done under contract by the University of Manitoba and the signing of the contract should be done shortly. it's not unde r way at the present time. There will be a study done at the Univ ersity of Manitoba on the effects of the seat belts. it's a joint study under the sub -agreements, federal-pro vincial. MR. C. MANNESS: Will the Min ister indic ate the total amount of dollars to be expended on the study and Manitoba's share, If he could, please? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I don't have those figures In front of me but we'll get them.

I imagine it's in the 20,000- or-so range, but we will get that information from staff and provide it to the member very shortly. MR. C. MANNESS: Well, I'm wondering if the Mini ster would unde rtake to provide to us the guidelines for the

TueldaJ, 18 AprH, 1885 study or the terms of reference in question. I suppo se I'd be curious to know what di rection has been given this particular faculty or this particular discipline at the un iversity with respect to researching this matter. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Well, I'm told that the figure is around the $20,000 mark and this particular study, interest ingly enough, is being funded entir ely by the Federal Government under the su b-agreements, but I have no problem with making available to the member the terms of reference for the study. it's hoped that an objective study done by the un iversity will provide us with valuable information on the effects of the legislation in terms of its effect on Inju ries and deaths in the province, the costs to insu rance, Medicare and so on, the number of people wearing them.

All of tho se things are important considera tions and we would like to have that information and the member is perfectly welcome to have access to the terms of reference. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, when seat belt legislation was enforced In April, 1984, I believe it was, as I recal l, the first numb er of accidents that occurred and people's lives were supposedly saved and test imonials were used, certainly within the news media, as to the fact that seat belts saved lives.

I'm not here to dis pute that. it was followed by the news media, and I dare say to some degree by the government for a period of two months. What was the experience in 1984 with respect to occupant fatalties from April to the end of the year or to, let's say, October of 1984, compared to the year previous? Was there a significant decrease in the numb er of lives lost? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I believe we have some limited figures on that; I'm just attempting to find them.

Certainl y, there was a visual survey done in June and the number of people wearing them on average across the province was 79 percent which was a high usage of seat belts and was very encourag ing. 1 believe the member is right that the media did seem to focus on whether people were or were not wearing seat belts at the time the law initially came into effect. During the period from April 1, 1984 to August 31, 1984, MPIC ind icated tha t there was a 14.9 percent decrease in the cost of bodily injury claims which resulted in savings of more than $2.5 million for the corpora tion.

That is one figure that I have in place and it was an interes ting figure In terms of the numb er of bodily Injur y claims during that period of time over the previous year. I know that there was a significant reduction in the numb er of deaths. I believe it was in the 20 percent to 25 percent range during that period of time, either deaths or inju ries . . . A MEMBER: For which period? HON. J. PLOHMAN: From'83-84, but I'm not sure - it was deaths or injur ies - I do recall that figure and I'd have to see whether we can get it for the mem ber. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr.

Chairman, for the five-month period, April to August, 1983 over 1984, again within this document, there seems to be an incr ease of som e 947 13 deaths covering that five-month span by the research done by Mr. Martens. He has been able to collect - and I must say the Minister probably knows Mr. Martens almost as well as I do, and he's gone to some effort to try and find factual evidence. I don't think anybody can be critical of his attempts to try and find factual num bers to shed a little light on the argument.

On Page - I don't even believe it has a page nu mber, but it's one of the charts at the back of his report tha t he's provided to the Min ister and also to myself - he's been able to find death certificates from Janu ary to October,'83 and obviously he'd be able to do that beyond October for'83, but he's compared Januar y to October'83 versus '84. Through that period of time, of course, there's no difference, there's no change in the total numb er of deaths. Looking specifically at that five-month block from April to August at which time ln'84, seat belts were manda tory, there was an Increase In deaths of 13.

I'm very curious as to whether the Minister and his department are cognizant of these facts and whether they have attempted to find an explanation or are they still at this point not accepted as being presented ? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, that's one of the points, since I don't have the details. I do have some Information that might be of interest which seemed to contradict, to a certain extent, that information; but specifically I don't for that period of time, have the information so I wouldn't necessarily call those num bers used by Mr. Martens as facts.

There's a lot of opportunity for confusion on accidents if th ey'r e not ac cur ately documented at source when an accident occurs, as to whether a person was wearing a seat belt or wasn't and so on. According to th e statistics and information I have there were, in 1982, 132 people killed in fatal accidents.

In 1983 there were 133, an Increase of one and for 1984, it ind icates 127, so a drop of about six there. it's not a substantial numb er but there's a greater drop in the actual numb er of accidents where injury occurred , according to the information I have from nearly 8,000 In 1983 to just over 7,000 In 1984. That is the figures as I have them here and I'm not certain that they are consistent with the figures tha t the member has that Mr. Martens has compiled but that's the information I have. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr.

Chairman, there's not much use pursuing a dis cussion with respect to the figures until the Min ister has an opportunity to receive from his department, firstly, some indic ation as to why the classification of injury statistics has been changed; and secondly, some indication as to whether the numbers as presented within this document prepared by Mr. Martens are accurate. HON. J. PLOHMAN: We're preparing a report on that document. I've asked staff to do that and we will have the up-to-date information on why the change was made and recommended by the consultant, Spectra, that was engaged in 1981-82 fiscal year.

I just want to say though, 1· don't know what the implications or implied reaso ns for the questions by the honour able member, but I can say that certainly

TUesd ay, 16 April, 1985 seat belts would not have been introduced in this province on the basis of injury statistics in this province alone. The government looked at a number of situations and jurisdictions across the country, in terms of the experience of seat belts to justify the decision or to act as a reason for the basis for a decision to go forward on seat belts because of the experience in other jurisdictions. So the change in statistics would not have been relevant, in terms of the actual putting in place of the new seat belt law. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr .

Chairman, I accept the Mini ster's response on behalf of the government as to the reason they brought forward seat belt legislation. My concern for bringing it forward is that if .Mr. Marten's figures are accurate - and obviously the Government of the Day - if they want to show that seat belts, once they have been legislated into place, are doing many things in respect to saving injuries. The best way to prove that of course is to show a major drop-off in injuries.

If the base from which they're dropping off, of course, is changed and put at a number which may or may not be realistic, then quite obviously the argument becomes very much stronger in support. Furthermore, it's hard to say what governments in the future will do with respect to seat belt legislation. regardless of whatever their political stripe. We know that jurisdictions in the south in some cases are removing the compulsory aspect of seat belt legislation and who knows, some time in the future, the Government of the Day in Manitoba may deem it to be a wise decision also.

I suppose one other question with respect to Manitoba's situation, because I remember a Minister of Highways from Saskatchewan coming into Manitoba, I believe it was a year ago, and indicating how, because of the advent of seat belt legislation within that province, that Saskatchewan was now indeed the safest province within Canada in which to drive. At least the accident statistics bore that out. I'm wondering, is that In fact factual?

Where does Manitoba fall within the ranking of provinces with respect to injuries on per hundred - by some basis - either per hundred million kilom etres, or whatever base is used to compare provinces? HON. J. PLOHMAN: First of all, I want to ind icate to the member that I assumed that his in terest in this matter was based on the reasons that he outlined here today and would like to strongly ind icate that I don't believe any government or any Min ister would be as cynical as to try to make a change in the method of showing statistics to later justify a law like seat belts.

I think the evidence stands clearly on its own and that kind of thing is certainly not necessary and is not something that we would have consciously entertained at any time. I wouldn't even give us credit for having that kind of planning capability that we would actually change th ose statistics, hire a consultant and have the statistics changed in late 198 1-82, shortly after the election, for implementation In 1982 and then wait a little over two years before we implement such a law. That's just incomprehensibl e as far as I can see and I want to indicate that to the member.

There's absolutely no way that we would have done that kind of thing. 948 In terms of the fatalities, Transport Canada has indicated, in terms of the calendar year, the numb er of fatality statistics and if we look at Saskatchewan and Manitoba I'm sure the Minister from Saskatchewan would be wrong. If he was referring to statistics at this time, it indi cates that for 1984 calendar year Manitoba had a total of 127 fatalities, which I said earlier, and Saskatchewan had 221. Now their population is very close to Manitoba's so if we looked at that situation, they're almost double of Manitoba's fatality rate.

So that would place us in very good light in terms of fatalities. In terms of seat belts, wearing, Transport Canada indicates that, overall for the year, Manitoba had a percentage usage of 61. 6 percent and Saskatchewan had a 49.6 percent, so they were not wearing seat belts as much as we are in Manitoba and perhaps we could attribute some of that difference in the numb er of fatalities to that fact. MR. C. MANNESS: A final question, Mr. Chairman.

Is it not a fact that in 1983, Manitoba, without compulsory seat belt legislation, had the lowest death loss of all provinces and that, indeed, over a series of many years, has always had one of the lowest loss on our highways even though many other provi nces have had seat belt legislation for a nu mber of years? HON. J. PLOHMAN: it may be true, Mr. Chairman, I don't have the 1983 figures in front of me but there are several provinces who have less in 1984, fewer deaths, but of course they have less population as well.

So if we're working on a per hundred bash;, or whatever it may be, Manitoba compar es very well with Saskatchewan. I don't have the figures for 1983. We're about average though across Canada, In terms of the wearing and using of seat belts, in terms of percentage of people that wear them. MR. C. MANNESS: Well, Mr . Chai rman, I won 't belabour the point. I'll undertake to await the Minister's response in a more formal manner with respect to this particular report and maybe later I'll have an opportunity to ask more detailed questions at that time. Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for La Verendrye. MR. R.

BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'd like to briefly raise an issue which I think Is talked about every year and I guess I should, before 1 start talking about the matter, say that I could I guess be considered as having a bit of a conflict in speaking about this, but because I understand the business so well maybe I can shed a little light and help the Minister look at one of the problem areas which a lot of automobile dealers face and that is with regard to safety certificates. I know it's a problem. it was a problem when we were in government and it's a problem with this government.

I guess what has happened over the years is that even though the act was passed, there is a certain

section that has not been proclaimed because of the lack of political will of successive governments. I understand that the certificates are lying in storage somewhere in the bowels of the Motor Vehicle Branch,

Tuesday, 16 April, 1985 some half a million forms, or something like that I think are lying there. I would at this time, draw to the Min ister's attention again, I guess one of the largest problems and one of the biggest concerns that face - not particularly the car dealers but the consum ers - and that is the one of the Autopac write-offs. We are in a position where people can buy an Autopac write-off, fix it up in their back yard, sell it privately to a friend or some uns uspecting customer, without ever having to have that car run through a safety check.

I'm wondering if the Minis ter or the department have got any way of identifying - I know that that the computer now I believe is identifying a car that has been written off because I know some of the manuf acturers are now declaring the warranty null and void if the car has been written off.

I have seen some situations, personal ly, in one particular ins tance, where a young lady bought a car at night. lt only had about 4,000 kilometres on it; bought it from a private individual; paid cash for 1t; and then drove it away and found out a week later that it was an Aut opac write-off; and was stuck with the automobile; had no recourse because of course the individual who had sold it to her was neither licensed nor had anything to do with any bonding or anything.

So we've got a serious situation where, not only from a safety standpoint, these vehicles are coming onto the hi ghway without ever having to have a safety certificate, but it also I think is posing a pretty serious thr eat to a lot of consumers who are buying units like this without having the protection of any recourse later on, after they've bought them. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Certainly If the situation exists as outlined by the Member for La Verendrye, it's a serious concern and we would like to look at ways of making it more foolproof, so to speak.

Yes, there has been arrangement with MPIC, I understand, to deal with the matter of vehicles that have been written off and identifying them for test purposes. My understanding was that a test certificate was requi red for those vehicles. However through selling them and purchas ing them again, people can get around that situation. We will have to look at whether the re's a way of tightening up that situation. I recognize that that's possible. I guess it's possible under almost any system to circumvent it, if that's the desire of indi viduals.

There may be a way of providing some requirement so when people purchase those at auctions from Autopac, that they must sign something to ind icate that they have to provide a certificate of roadw orthine ss before they're operated in the future in a more dir ect way. But I would like to consult with my colleague, the Mini ster responsible for MP IC, if that's a widespread problem, but certai nly it seems to have been rectified to a certain extent by the identification system that is in place. MA. A.

BANMAN: The Min ister will appreciate that the only way we're ever going to solve the problem is to do what Ontario does and that is require every individual to have an author ized safe motor vehicle form and produce that at the time of registra tion.

In other words, when a person either goes to change their registration to another automobile or register a new or a used 949 automobile, that at the time of registration the customer will be required - whether it be a private sale or from a dealer - will be required to have a Safe Motor Vehicle Certificate which then puts the onus on the individual who has signed that authorization certificate to make sure that that car is roadworthy. Now I guess I'm going to ask the Min ister at this time if there is any move by the government to proclaim the

section of the act which will then require everybody who is registering a motor vehicle to produce a Safe Motor Vehicle Certific ate at the time of registration? HON. J. PLOHMAN: The answer is no, there isn't at this time. The mem ber has raised some of the considerations I'm certain that he faced when he was looking at the same situation a numb er of years - perhaps four years ago, exactly four years - ago when he was looking at that situation. lt was not done at that time. We talked earlier with the Member for Virden about regulations and adding complications to people's lives.

Certainly this is one area that would be the case, even though it may seem desirable in terms of reducing injuries and deaths, accidents and so on, that might be attributable to defective vehicles on the road. We are concerned about that and this year we hope to be increasing the numb er of inspections through our Inspection Program significantly through the year, by concentrating on larger centres and therefore dealing with more vehicles, to increase it from about 6 percent of the total vehicle fleet in the province to about 7.5 percent.

However that's not the complete answer, I recognize, and it is certainly something, in terms of the requirement certificates, that I think is valid, but I've indi cated to the Manitoba Automobile Associat ion, when I have met with them on a couple of occasions, that we were not Intending to proceed at this time with that change. MA. A. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr.

Chairman, I would just comment on that, telling the Mi nister that as someone who has been in the busi ness for many years and knowing the ways the system is being beaten right now because of the lack of control and the lack of issu ing and re quiring of the safe motor vehicle certificates for all vehicles, one has to really be a little bit cynical about the governments - and, again I say, of all political stripes - talking about safety and talking about going ahead and making high ways safer by using seat belts and that, when we know for a fact that someone can walk into my dealership tomorrow, buy a car for $100 that is not roadworthy at all, I will issue them an unsafe motor vehicle certificate.

They walk outside the door and for a doll ar, he sells the car to his brother and they walk down to the local Autopac agency and licence the car and driv e it off your yard. it's a rid iculous situation. lt happens every day in the city and in rural Manitoba. We've got cars going on the roads that are totally unsafe and shouldn't be there and we have a mechanism of curbing that, but I say to the Min ister that it's pretty -sad when we jus t don't have the will to do it. I pu ·t that on the record knowing full well that it's a problem that successive governments have not tackled.

I would have to say that I hope that sometime in the near future

Tueeday, 16 April, 1985 some government has the will to deal with this problem because I believe that from a standpoint of safety, it's a must and it's ludi crous for us to walk around and have safety inspections teams out when we don't even curb the one area which wouldn't cost the taxpayer one cent. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Just very briefly, Mr. Chairman.

We have asked the MPIC for information on this area because I would like to know what the implications would be in terms of reduction in costs to M PlC because of accidents and what the dif ference is, if they have statistics on accident ratios when all vehicles are inspected versus when they'r e not. We don't have concrete information to that effect at the present time. I've asked the M PlC to supply me with that if they could give some figures in that regard.

So, I'd like to have that information and certainly we did that as a result of the latest meeting that we had with the executive mem bers of the association when they discussed it with us. I'm sure that's information that the member would like to have as well because we can say that there would be a significant difference in highway safety in reduction of accidents, injuries and deaths, but we can't qua ntify that at the present time. MR. CHAIRMAN: 6.(aX1 )- pass; 6.(aX2)-pass - The Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: I have a question, Mr.

Chairman, or perhaps it's more of a statement than a question, something that I want to bring to the Minister's attention. I believe that he has a board with a name something like a medical review board having to do with the suspension and reinstatement of licences. I had a situation with one of my constituents where a young person had suffered a blackout and under those circumstances I un derstand that the people automatically will lose their licence.

After a period of time, the local doctor had determined to his satisfactio n that this young man should have his licence reinstated and he so recommended, but that was not sufficient to get his licence back. He was asked to go before this medical review board. Now, this young fellow was working in Virden and his father was working in Boissevai n, so his father had to take a day off work, the young man had to take a day off work. They driv e to Winnipeg. He comes before the board. He's there for somewhere between 2 and 5 minutes and they tell him no.

There is nothing happens at the board with him present that couldn't have happened with him in Virden. I un derstand this board is supposed to have some medical expertise, but there was no way that there could be any sort of medical expertise brought to bear as the young man is sitting in front of the committee. The board apparently looked at the records for the very first time and denied him his licence. They came to me afterwards and said, what's going on? This seems like a useless, bureaucratic waste of time.

I contacted the board and tried to get some answers as to how this board functioned and whether, in fact, there really was a chance that the board might have made a decision to give him his licence back. Had there ever been an example of a similar case where 950 a person got his licence back? I couldn't get any answer from, I believe, the woman who was the secretary of the board. So, I asked her who was the chairman of the board. She gave me the name of the chairman. I asked for his telephone numb er and she said I'm not allowed to release that. it's my view, Mr.

Chairman, that a committee such as that should be set up to serve the public. I must say that I have never encoun tered such a bureaucratic mess as I encoun tered in trying to deal with that board which I gather hasn't been established very long. If it can get into that sort of situation in such a short period of time, watch out after it's been established for awhile. I know that this is not an isolated case because I have heard of others that have been simi larly treated. So, I would just like to bring it to your attention, Mr.

Minis ter, and to indir ectly bring it to the attention of the chairman of the board that these boards are there to serve the people and they're not serving the people in the way that person would serve. That might be alright if you're living five blocks away and you're asked to come down and you can maybe answer a few questions but, to me, that was a completely useless exercise that he went through. They could have made that decision looking at the medical records without ever having called him in. HON. J. PLOHMAN: I thank the member for raising that concern.

I would, under those circumstances, share the same concerns that the member has. I would hope that the boards and all civil servants deal with the public in a polite way, recognizing that they are there to provide service and we're always attempting to emphasize that point in all areas sensitive to the public. I would think that it would be valuable for the member to provide that brief story in writing for me so that I can express those concerns.

How ever, if the member wanted to do that, it would certainly be helpful and would have been at the time to have raised that with me and I would have certainly passed it on to the chairman of the board who is a Dr. C. A. Scrib ner. The board is made up of thr ee additional doctors besides the chairman: a neurologist , a cardiologist, specialists in that area, and an area specializing in sight, vision, and also a layperson on that particular board. There are four people plus the chairman; three of them are doctors and the chairman is also a doctor.

That, of course, means that they should be experts in dealing with medical conditions and that's the purpose of the board so that there is some expertise and expert input ins tead of having simply laypeople at the Licence Suspension Appeal Board, the registrar doing that kind of thing. So we think it was a positive step, but certainly it has to function in a positive way and I appreciate that matter being raised. I will follow up with the board on that particular matter. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Min nedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Just while we're on that, what is the remuneration of the board, Mr. Chairman? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: it's a per diem amount. Sorry, Mr. Chairman, if we would go on I could look that up and provide it for the member. I'm not certain exactly what the numb er is.

Tuesday, 18 April, 1985 MR. D. BLAKE: Just while we're on that particular item, Mr. Chairman, there are quite a number of points that have been covered by my colleague, so we won't belabour them and go over them again, but on the driver testing and the medical review panel, I'm sure the Minister has a copy of the brief sent to him by the Minnedosa area disabled persons of the Manitoba League for the Physically Handicapped.

There's a strong plea from many of these branches of the League for the Physically Hand icapped throughout southwestern Manitoba, asking for a testing facility in Brandon or somewhere in the Westman area. We'd like to see it in Minnedosa, but there's a driver testing unit in Brandon, so it would probably be the logical place for it. lt just follows on the expense and the inconvenience involved that the Member for Turtle Mountain touched on.

They're required to come into Winnipeg; they're required to take a day off work; they're required to stay overnight. lt becomes not only the frustration for a physically handicapped person to come in and take these tests in here, but the expense involved. Now 1 realize that the testing facilities are maybe fairly exacting and it may only be feasible to have the equipment in Winnipeg, but a good amount of the equipment, I don't think, is that costly and it maybe could be located elsewhere.

One particular constituent of mine was frustrated to the point of near exhaustion with the therapy that he had to go through, the therapeutic group that he had to go through, but that was an unusual case. When I became involved in it, I spoke with the deputy registrar and I must say, Mr. Minister, just had excellent co operation with the Motor Vehicle Branch from that time on.

And it's progressed to the point where I think the constituent involved is feeling much more confident now in his next visit to pass the required tests in order to get a very restricted licence, limiting him to just a few miles around town, that will enable him to go and pick up the mail and take his youngster to the rink and things of that nature. But to go beyond that, a testing facility located in the Westman area for the physically handicapped would be very, very timely.

As I say, it's not only the expense, it's the frustration and the time involved and the time off work and whatnot, to come into Winn ipeg to take the tests and maybe run into a situation which is similar to the one that the Member for Turtle Mountain related, where they get pretty short shrift and maybe not too much of a feeling of helpfulness and compassion and understanding of their particular case. So that was just one item I wanted to bring to the Minister's attention.

Also I'm sure the Minister is very familiar with the case of one Theresa Ducharme in connection with putting the handi-vans or the wheel chair van service under the Taxicab Board. I won't go into long detailed discussion of that, Mr. Minister, other than to say maybe he would care to comment on why he felt it was necessary to place these vehicles under the Taxicab Board, with all of the ramifications and problems that that's creating for some of these people, and maybe we could leave it at that - if he could just let us have his comments on that particular case. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, I just wanted to say that, yes, handicapped drivers have to come into the City of Winnipeg to the Rehab Centre for evaluation for assessment and then they are assisted by the Rehab Centre in designing the kinds of controls that they will need to operate; that's one of the basic reasons why they have to make that trip in. In terms of the actual testing, a matter of setting up a testing station in Brandon, would simply involve the additional costs of having another testing centre there and that is the major consideration, but one that I think is worthy of consideration. I understand . . . MR. D.

BLAKE: If they require no special equipment on the car especially, it wouldn't be that costly. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes.

In terms of the Taxicab Board and the reg ul ation of the Handi- Transit or the handicapped cab system in the City of Winnipeg, as the mem bers knows, that the Taxicab Board is responsible only for the City of Winnipeg. lt was felt, as a result of representation from the League for the Physically Handicapped and the Canadian Paraplegic Association, in consultation with them, that it was desirable to have consistent rates across the board for this service and also to have minimum safety standards in the equipment, and also a place where the users of the service could come to suggest changes - a sounding board, so to speak - that would make requests and report to, in terms of the way that the service is handled and the service that they receive.

So they felt it was necessary to do that and it was after discussions with the industry, who indicated that they felt they had no difficulties as long as two years ago with that. Steps were taken to follow up on it and now we're almost at the stage where those regulations can be put into place. I think Theresa Ducharme's concerns are not strictly with the matter of regulation and consistency in rates and safety requirements, and so on. She's concerned about the rates going up and having no subsidization, even as the rates are today with the service that she has.

And that's really a different issue than the matter of providing minimum safety standards and consistent rates. it's the matter of the kind of assistance that's available to handicapped people for transportation and it's an area that we are looking at in terms of our overall assistance to people for transportation in many different departments.

Through Commu nity Services there's various provisions for assistance and the Department of Transportation and others, and Health as well, and we want to look at the most efficient way of providing that service, so we're reviewing that internally with the departments. it's a matter also where the federal level could be involved in assisting handicapped people in · providing that service for them. 951 So it's a much larger problem that Theresa Ducharme is dealing with and not one strictly dealing with the regulation of the industry under the Taxicab Board and one that will take a little bit longer to address I think.

MR. D. BLAKE: Mr. Chairman, if after the 1st of �une, these wheel chair van services all come under the ruling of the Taxicab Board, if someone were to want to provide this service, were to provide a van with the various safety features and that, they would not be

Tueeday, 16 April, 1985 allowed to operate unless they were under the Taxicab Board. Is that right? HON. J. PLOHMAN: That's correct, Mr. Chairman. If they do go into effect June 1st, we want to assure our selves that everyt hing is in place. That's the announced date. However there may be some delays; we're working on that and we want to ensure that any requirements are phased in so that the operators are able to meet those regulations and nothing dramatic and drastic takes place on Day One that would cause them a great deal of expense. MR. D.

BLAKE: This would involve some training of those drivers that were driving the handi-vans or the van service for wheelchairs. They would have some training in handling that type of passenger, more so than an ordinary, regular cab driver. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: The first areas that the board will look at will be primarily the area of safety, minimum safety standards and rates. lt's quite possible that later on additional steps will be taken with regard to minimum training requirements but, as the member knows, there is no special training requirements for taxicab drivers in the city and therefore there wouldn't necessarily be that requirement initially; but it would be desirable to have some training.

I understand the Winnipeg Handi-Transit system, all of the drivers have had some special training so it is a desirable thing and one that we'd want to work toward. MR. D. BLAKE: While we were mentioning the driver testing, the Member for Gladstone had mentioned that there were a number of complaints in her area with delays In receiving driver tests. I haven't had complaints in that area, fortunately. I suppose maybe the Minnedosa area might be one of the better ones served or the people are not as prone to complain maybe as they are In other areas so I haven't had those complaints, Mr. Chairman.

The Licence Suspension Appeal Board fees - I wonder if the Minister could tell me when those fees were increased. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, there's always a need to increase the revenue for various services that are charged to attempt to at least come close to balancing on some of the services that are provided. In this case there was justification for an increase from $35 for an application there to $50 and I believe that came into effect around the beginning of the last fiscal year, April, 19 84. MR. D. BLAKE: The sections of the act that I mentioned today in the House, Mr. Chairman.

With the court ruling, I realize the Minister may not be able to answer that now, but there are many cases of notification going astray or not getting into the hands of the person that was to be suspended and there is no question, the ruling that has come down is probably a fair and just one, because there's probably going to be a great number of challenges.

If that's going to be taken as a precedent, there's going to be a great deal of difficulty in making suspensions stick or valid if they can appeal it under this type of a ruling. 952 There's one particular case that I'm aware of where the brother was an unlicenced driver and had used his brother's driver's licence and consequently the brother, unbeknown to him, was apprehended and found that he was a suspended driver and he had no knowledge of it whatsoever. I only have one brother and he'd only do that to me about once.

These cases do happen and the turmoil, expense, anxiety and problems that it creates are horrendous and if this ruling, as I say, becomes a precedent, as I mentioned to the Minister in question period today, there's going to have to be a better way. lt's going to be like serving a subpeona or whatever, that's going to have to be handed to the person.

I realize the task that it's going to be but, as I say, if these become precedent in law, that's going to have to become a fact and it's going to have to be put into place, because there are many instances that could be cited that have created great hardships for drivers that were completely innocent and all of a sudden they're apprehended and found they've been suspended; and if it had been an accident, God knows what might have happened to them. HON. J. PLOHMAN: I thank the member for those comments. We are looking at that on an urgent basis.

The registrar's meeting with the representatives from the Attorney-General's Department at 8 o'clo ck tomorrow morning to go over this matter. lt is a serious matter with serious ramifications and we'll have to look at whether the current system, at least in part, can continue or whether there has to be a complete change and it could be a rather dramatic one, in terms of human resource costs, for making that change if it ever came to serving in person, as you mentioned, such as a subp eona, an assigned authorization from the individual that they inde ed kno w that they are suspended.

Apparently - and we're going to check with what other provinces are doing in this regard - in Ontario we understand that the system is similar but the records are all on computer and when an officer stops an individual and he hands him a driver's licence and he checks it out on the computer and finds out that he is indeed suspended, he just fills out a little form and rips it off and gives lt to the driver and tells him, from now on you're suspended; you're suspended as of now, you've got it.

Here's the notice, so he doesn't get a ticket for driving under suspension for that particular time but he's finished as far as any further infractions. That is one way to possibly consider doing it. I don't know whether our computer system Is such that we'd be able to do that, but we'll look at that, along with other options for making this a fair system. I agree with the mem ber, that if people aren't aware they're suspended, it's rather unfair.

On the other hand, we find that a lot of people now are going out of their way to make sure they don't get the notice, the certified mail, so that they can avoid having their licence suspended. MR. D. BLAKE: Sure, those people never pick up a registered letter. HON. J. PLOHMAN: That's right, so it's getting to be quite widespread and therefore has to be dealt with, in any event.

n...ctar. 18 April, 1885 MR. CHAIRMAN: What's the pleasure of the committee, the time being 10:00 p.m.? MR. D. BLAKE: I know the Minister would like to get finished. If we'd like to carry on, we could maybe finish it. Whatever the Minister likes. HON. J. PLOHMAN: I'm prepared to carry on, Mr. Chairman, as long as the members opposite wish. MR. CHAIRMAN: 6.(a)(1)-p ass; 6.(a)(2)- pass. 6.(b)

(1) Driver and Vehicle, Licensing: Salaries; 6.(b)

(2) Other Expenditures. The Member for Minnedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Under Other Expenditu res, Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister might indicate what's the situation with the farm vehicle licence fee now, the increases that have been applied and other charges that have been made there. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, is the honourable mem ber asking whether the farm plate fee has increased in the past year, registration fees? I'm not aware that there's any change this year from the previous year with regard to those fees. MR. CHAIRMAN: 6.(b)(1)-p ass; 6.(b)(2)- pass; 6.(c)

(1) Safety, Salaries; 6.(c)

(2) Other Expenditu res - the Member for Minnedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Yes, we have the safety officer here. If he might give us just a quick rundown on what's happening in the Motor Vehicle Safety Branch. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, Mr. Chairman, I'll try to do that on his behalf. This coming year we're continuing to expand the 15.5-year-old program.

Under this program, there are 104 out of the 154 schools in the province which offer the program, so it has expanded again quite considerably this past year; 102 schools of those 104 offer the 15 .5-year-old program, so most of the schools in the province that are offering the driver education are offering the 15.5 -year-old program and ... MR. D. BLAKE: If I might Interject, Mr. Chairman, I understand the staff hasn't been increased and there's a great waiting period for those 15 .5-year-olds to get on the program? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, that is the case in some particular areas.

We're making every effort to expand the availability of staff where there are shortages so we can accommodate larger demands for this program. Last year, there were 6,568 high school students who completed the course during the' 84-85 year. l· hope to get that up to about 7,500 this year so it means that we have provided additional dollars for that larger number of students. As the member is aware, MPIC Is substantially involved in this program as well, paying-the majority of the costs. MR. D. BLAKE: What is the fee increase? HON. J. PLOHMAN: The fee is still, Mr.

Chairman, $30 for the individual student, the same as last year. We 953 reduced it from $45 last year to $30 and of course that increased the demand. As well, the Bicycle Safety Program is continued, 14 2 courses last year, 30,000 students graduated from that program. The Snowmobile Safety Program, 1, 339 persons involved there, an increase of 186 over the previous year. We carried out approximately 40,000 inspections of vehicles last year and hope to increase that In the comirig year. In addition, annual inspections were carried out on 1, 755 school buses and 192 public service vehicles, mostly buses.

The province's 25 1 ambulances have been inspected every six months and those are the major statistics under the safety programs being offered. MR. D. BLAKE: What Is the contribution of MPIC to the program, Mr. Chairman? I guess that's available in our statement but I just can't recall it now. HON. J. PLOHMAN: The cost is approximately $16 0 per student of which the student pays $30 - I believe we pay $20 - and the $1 10 is paid by MPIC. The vast majority of it Is paid by the ... so if you multiply $11 0 times the 7, 500 - about $825, 000 from M PlC contribution to this program. MR. D.

BLAKE: There is no change from last year. MR. CHAIRMAN: 6.(c)(1)-p ass; 6.(c)(2)- pass; 6.(d)

(1) Highway Traffic Board, Motor Transport Board, Taxicab Board and Licence Suspension Appeal Board: Salaries; 6.(d)

(2) Other Expenditures - the Mem ber for Minnedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Yes, could the Minister tell me what is the backlog of cases under the Motor Transport Board, cases awaiting hearings? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, the chairman of the board advises me that it's about 8 to 9 months at the present time and is certainly of great concern. One of our hopes is that with the changes in the new board's rules and procedures as we bring forward some changes to the regulations, we will be able to reduce that substantially. MR. D. BLAKE: What changes does the Minister have in mind that might reduce the waiting period? HON.

J. PLOHMAN: One of the major changes that will be made is a preliminary review by the board to strike frivolous opposition that is often the case simply to delay an application. They would not have to have a hearing under those circums tances, but simp ly determine whether that was the case. If they determined that was the case, a hearing could possibly be avoided. That will reduce the number of hearings because a lot of cases, it is the case that people are intervening and filing opposition simply to delay the application, and there's no particular substance to the opposition. · MR . D.

BLAKE: Yes, I'm sure nearly all of the applications are contested in one way or another, or there are objections filed in pretty well all of the cases. I'm sure that that could be streamlined in some way.

1\telcltly. 18 AprU, 1185 HON. J. PLOHMAN: The other thing, Mr. Chairman, is that we hope to have another board room available for the board so that they can function in two comm ittees at one time and th erefore deal with additional cases during the same period of time, which will definitely expedite matters. MR. D. BLAKE: Yes, I'm sure that's extremely frustrating for someone who is looking for a PSV licence or something of that nature to have to wait that length of time to have a hearing to find out whether he can get into business or whether he can't. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Yes, another matter that the chairman of the board has advised me about is that they are going to the practice more of providing temporary authorities while the applications is being considered so that people do not have to wait during that period of time for operating. MR. D. BLAKE: A question just came to mind. lt probably should have been asked earlier, Mr.

Chairman, but I've been informed that trucks in the city here - and it may be a city problem - if they're hauling, for example, concrete rubble, one load, and then they want to haul gravel on another load, they have to have special permits for that. Is that a City of Winnipeg permit or is that issued through the . . . ? HON. J. PLOHMAN: That's in the City of Winnipeg and they're being quite jealous in the enforcement of the provisions under The Highway Traffic Act, in many cases waiting close by when truckers are loaded and they have no wa:y of knowing what the weight is in their particular vehicle.

We understand that is a problem that they are encountering, one that they have brought to our attention and we're working with the City of Winnipeg to attempt to alleviate that, whether it might require some amendments to The Highway Traffic Act or just some change in their operation. Certainly, if they had mobile weigh scales available at major construction sites, as the province does, that would assist in reducing these incidents of overweight, quite inadvertently, by a number of operators because they're not in control of the amount that's put in, in many cases.

So we recognize that as being a frustrating and costly situation for a number of dump-truck operators and are attempting to work through the off icials at the present time with the City of Winnipeg to alleviate that situation. MR. D. BLAKE: I'm sure if I'm getting those complaints and those problems brought to my attention, I'm sure the Min ister is getting more of them, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: 6.(d)( 1)- pass; 6.(d)(2)-pa ss.

Resolution 96: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty, a sum not exceeding $11 ,004,000 for Hig hways and Transportation, Driver and Vehicle Licensing, for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March, 19 86-pa ss. Item No. 7 .(

a) Expenditures Related to Capital, Construction and Upgrading of Provincial Trunk High ways, Provincial Roads and Related Projects; 7.(b) 954 Aid to Cities, Towns and Villages; 7.(

c) Work in Local Government Districts and Unorganized Territory; 7.(

d) Access to Remote Communities; 7.(e)( 1) Acquisition/ Construction of Physical Assets, Other Projects; 7.(e)

(2) Northern Development Agreements, Canada-Manitoba; 7.(e)

(3) Less: Recoverable from Northern Affai rs. The Mem ber for Min nedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Mr. Chairman, if the Minister could briefly give us some of the major construction projects that are going to eat up the amount of this appropriation. As I mentioned to him earlier, we're disappointed that there's not umpteen more millions In here for the construction program, but we'll have to work with what we've got. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, Mr.

Chairman, the members have copies of the construction program and therefore are aware of all of the major projects that are included in the program, both new and carry-over, which make up the total expenditu res of the $95 million. All of the dollars for all of those projects can't be flowed. There's approximately, as the tradition is, as allowed under the Department of Finance for 1.6 times as much as the total expenditures, so their programming Is obviously more than can be flowed in one particular year.

But they're outlined, I can go through and flip through and name projects, but the members can obviously read and they have the copies of those major projects, all of the projects. MR. D. BLAKE: Have we? Where are they? HON. J. PLOHMAN: The yellow program that was tabled in the Legislature. MR. D. BLAKE: Yes, but I'm looking at costs. There's no dollar value on the yellow program. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Right. MR. D. BLAKE: If the Mi nister could hit some of the highlights, the ones that are multimilfion dollars projects, that's what I'm looking for or he could provide them for me ... HON. J.

PL OHMAH: Yes, I guess the difficulty is that MR. D. BLAKE: No. 75 and the twinning of No. 1 and things of that nature - they are multimiffion dollar ones. The Minister can provide those to me later, it doesn't necessarily have to be done tonight. HON. J. PLOHMAN: I can do that. I was just going to say the difficulty is that when we make public these figures, obviously there's some Ind ication to contractors, In terms of their tendering if they know what the department's estimate is. So it's not a desirable thing to do and I don't know if it's one that has been done.

I'm prepared to do it if that's what the members want, but it's estimates by the department and I can provide the member with those kinds of answers. MR. D. BLAKE: I could just come down to the Mi nister's office and look at it.

Tuesday, 18 April, 1985 HON. J. PLOHMAN: Certainly you could. MR. D. BLAKE: Okay, that's what I was interested in, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: 7.(a)- pass; 7.(b)-p ass; 7.(c)- pass; 7.(d)- pass. 7.(e)( 1) - the Member for Minnedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Mr. Chairman, under 7.(e), is there any major pu rchases there tha t we're not aware of? Does that include the aircraft there? HON. J. PLOHMAN: The major projects include there the airport upgrading, $31 7,000; gravel exploration, a provision made for $1 60,000; highways equipment and tools, $696,000; water bomber pu rchase, $14 7,000 - that's the payment for this year.

MR. D. BLAKE: Lease? HON. J. PLOHMAN: That's the original one that's still being paid off on yearly payments. The highways buildings and storage yards, $561 ,000; imp rovement to weigh scale, $75,000; ferry landing impr ovements, $65,000; Capital grants for the trans portat ion and mobility di sadvantage in rural Manitoba, $80,000.00. MR. D. BLAKE: Are there any new highway yards being constructed? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I'll just check that. There's just some imp rovements, Mr.

Chairman, to equipment storage building at the MacGregor Farm Road in Winnipeg for $1 50,000; extensive masonry repairs to concrete block walls at various buildings In the Dauphin Highways Complex, $80,000; two new bay heated equipment storage buildings in Wabowden for $65,000.00. That kind of thing. A numb er of others, Eriksdale Yard . . . MR. CH AIRMAN: 7.(e )( 1) - pass; 7.(e )(2)- pass; 7.(e)(3)- pass.

Resolution 97: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majes ty, a sum not exceed ing $104, 125,200 for Highw ays and Transportation, Expenditur es Related to Capital, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 1986- pass. Back to the Minis ter's Salary, 1.(a)( 1) - the Member for Minne dosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Mr. Chairman, yes I've been asked by the Member for Roblin-Ru ssell - there was an

article in his local paper: "High ways Min ister John Plohman has anno unced that the Selo Ukraina Access Road has been declared a provincial road." He's asking me if the parks, campsites, and other roads would qualify for PR roads, and I think he's particularly interested in a road which is he has written to the Min ister, requesting the road to Asessi ppi Park, off PTH 83 near lnglis, could gain similar status? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, there's provisions in the act for major indus trial or commercial ventures to roads to be declared provincial access roads.

There's 955 the Harr owby plant at the Russeii-Roblin area that has a similar situation. The Shellmouth Dam is one that's included as a provincial road under a similar provision under the act and this was a major development which qualif ied under tha t

section of the act as well. I'm not certain whether parks could. I imagine they would be under the ju risdiction of Natural Resources in that particular instance, and therefore would be the responsibility of that department. They have a number of roads that are, but I would have to look at that specific situation if he wanted to relay that request to me and have the department look at it. MR. D. BLAKE: Yes, I think you have a letter to that effect and will probably be replying to it. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes. MR. D. BLAKE: Mr.

Chairman, just to end on the note that we started on, in concluding the Estimates of the Min ister, as I mentioned earlier, we're dis appointed that there's not more in the construction program. We realize the constraints the Min ister is working under but this department is consider ed in the rural area as being one of prime im portance. Our road system is deteriora ting at a rapid pace and is going to requir e major expenses and a monumental approach and attack by the government if we're going to maintain our road syst em.

I would like the Min ister, hopefully this year, to find some resolution or solution if he can to the abandoned rail lines. it's causing some problems in th e municipalities and they would like to get it straightened out and I realize there are some problems with that; but if the Mini ster could put some effort into trying to straighten some of those abandoned rail beds out and provide some satisfactory or conclusive answers to the mun icipalities I'm sure that would relieve them of some anxiety and some problem.

Also we dis cussed, and not at too great a length, the studies in the Brandon area, the Brandon eastern access route, and I'm sure the Minister is well aware of the feelings of the community and the people in Brandon and I would urge him strongly to take the feelings, considerations and the recommendations of the local community into consideration when the final approval is given to the eastern access route. With that, Mr. Chairman, we're not about to move.

I'm fortunate I have one of my colleagues still with me that I could get a seconder to move some reduction in the Mini ster's Salary but, in view of the hour and the pace that we have proceeded in the last half hour in getting the Estimates to a satisfactory conclusion, I would close with no further questions or comments, Mr. Chairman, other than the fact we'll be looking forward to the Estimates next year to see a considerable increase in the Capital Construction Program and hopefully it will be under the admini stration of a Conservative Government when these Estimates next come up. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 1.(a)( 1)-p ass. Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceed ing $2,904,2 00 for Hi ghways and Transportation, Admin istration and Finance, for the fiscal year ending the :> • st day of March, 1986- pass. 31st

Tuuday, 18 April, 1815 Committee rise. SUPPLY - HEALTH MR. CHAIRMAN, P. Eyler: Committee, come to order. We are considering the Estimates of the Department of Health, Item 3.(

a) Operations Support. The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: I think I left a sheet in the office there with the staffing complements in it, but nevertheless the Min ister can indicate here the - I think if my memory serves me correct, there was about eight people here? Are the positions all full and are any . HON. L. DESJARDINS: Six. MR. D. ORCHARD: Six and they're all full, none on an acting basis, etc. etc.? HON. L DESJARDINS: We're at Operations Support. There's six and they're all permanent and there's no vacancies. MR. D. ORCHARD: Now, Mr.

Chairman, I wonder if the Minister could ind icate to me the difference in function between what I would presume to be two fairly closely related shops in terms of 2.(

a) Program Support and Operational Support. Is my impression correct that under 3.(

a) this is, if you will, your program, delivery and administration wing, rather than the planning and policy development wing? Could you give me the subtle distinction between the two? HON. L. DESJARDINS: I think I tried to explain that before the dinner hour. The 2.(

a) is the office of the Assistant Deputy Min ister, who is in charge in giving direction to the program - no that's administration, that's finished - Dr. Jack Wilt, and now what we're looking at is Don Mclean, who is in the Operation Region of Community Services. 2.(

a) and 3.(

a) are equivalent, except it's two different Deputy Ministers with, of course, different responsibilities. MR. D. ORCHARD: And it's under this operation that your regional staff, your public health nurses, your co ordinators of home care, etc., etc., are employed? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Yes. MR. D. ORCHARD: Now, Mr. Chairman, obviously under Operations Support, there doesn't appear to be too many changes, but just brief ly, is there any Introduction of computer technology in this branch, In the Operations Support? HON. L DESJARDINS: In this operation, on this I don't want to mislead the member.

Under Operation Support, that is 3.(a), there are no computers. There are computers in each region. We could go into that in the next - well, not the next because we go back to Mental Health - but in 3.(

b) Regional Services. There is a computer in every region except Thompson, Is it? There's a computer there and it's co-ordinated from the admin istration; but on this particular thing there is 956 no change. This is the same as last year. There's no computer or anything; it's just providing the staff, the Assistant Deputy Minister and his office. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(a)(1)- pass; 3.(a)(2)- pass. I believe now the committee had agreed to go back to consider 2.(m) - Mr. Minister. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Chairman , there's a commitment that I made earlier when we started in Mental Health that I would have a statement to niake that migh t answer the questions posed by my honourable friend yesterday. MR. D. ORCHARD: Do you have an extra copy? HON. L DESJARDINS: Mental Health is a major priority of the Manitoba Government and $1 .45 million will be made available for a new community-based program initiatives during '58 and '59 (sic). The overall thrust is to promote the positive integration of the mentally ill person Into the community, as well as community based care.

The $1 .45 million will be directed primarily towards com mu nity-ba sed care programs for mentally ill persons. These programs will include options for community residenc es and other residential care alternatives, as well as day programs to provide reallocation for people recovering from mental illness. Two additional staff positions to reinforce the newly established Mental Health Directorate in Manitoba Health is responsible for the overall development of an integrated service delivery system.

An audio-visual communication link between the Brandon Mental Health Centre and the University of Manitoba, which is being established to enable Brandon to utilize their services of trained psychiatrists in Winnipeg. This is one interim measure being undertaken while the problem of the shorter psychiatric manpower in the rural areas of the province is being addressed by the Chief Provincial Psychiatrist, Doctor John Toews, in concert with the Department of Psychiatry and the University of Manitoba. These new initiatives are major steps in addressing the recommendations of the working group on Mental Health.

A number of other Initiatives, such as the following, which are not included in the new funding, having already been taken to improve Mental Health Services: The Career Residency Program to encourage medical students to specialize in psychiatry will continue to be made available to the University of Manitoba Faculty of Medicine; Plans for the construction of ·a free standing psychiatric unit on the site of the Health Sciences Centre are being prepared and it is expected that this facility will be completed by late 1987 or '88; The Manitoba Adole scent Treatment Centre for psychiatrically disturbed adolescents currently has two long-term treatment units, which are fully operational, and will soon be opening an additional nine-bed unit.

The centre also presently provides day treatment services and work experience programs. Plans for the construction of the 100-bed psycho-geriatric unit in both Brandon and Selkirk are actively under way and

Tue�ay, 18 April, 1985 these units will provide residential care to elderly patients currently in the Brandon and Selkirk Mental Health Centres. I want to emphasize, as I annou nced before, that these are not new beds but replacement beds. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, the Min ister has indi cated that two new staff are being added. Now it's my understanding that you've got the Westman regional director in as the new acting director here now? HON. L. DESJARDINS: No, he's full time. MR. D. ORCHARD: Oh, he's full time, okay. Have you filled the additional staff?

Have you got four on staff now or do you just have the two original plus the new director? HON . L. DESJARDINS: No, at the present there's only the two that we've had and this is presentiy being filled with two other positions. MR. D. ORCHARD: So I take it that the other two positions for the Mental Health Directorate are currently being bulletined? - (Interjection) - They haven't been bulletined right now, but they're going to be bulletined fairly soon? Okay. Mr. Chairman, in the Other Expenditures there's a fairly sizable increase.

Could the Mini ster indicate what the major features of the increased expenditures are for this fiscal year? HON. L. DESJARDINS: That is in that statement that I just gave a copy to my honourable friend, it's the link between Brandon and Winnip eg in Psychiatr y. By the way, that's $13 6.2 thous and of the surplus and there's also additional expenses related to staff increases and new initiatives for $47.7 thousand and that accounts for the increase. MR. D.

ORCHARD: You know, this audio-visual communication link between Brandon and the University of Manitoba, I presume will provide a two-way televised, two-way image communic ation between the University and the Mental Health Centre In Brandon, so that you're going to be able to, theoretically, use the services of staff psychiatrists to provide patient counselling, a whole range of psychiatric services in Brandon? Is that the general idea? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Yes, also with the staff at Brandon and also for consultation with the patient, if required. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Now the Min ister ended his answer by, "if required." Is tha t not going to be a feature? HON. L. DESJARDINS: When required. MR. D. ORCHARD: When required, so that is going to be a standard feature of this link. Now I presume that this will use the much-talked about coaxial cable that was laid by MTS back In about 1978 or so. - (In terjection) - About '78. The cost, I presume, is an estimated cost based on basically renting space on that. In other words, it'll probably be so much per hour or whatever for using that two-way communication system as part of a - basically telephone charges.

The only difference being you're going to be not only transmitting audio, you're going to be transmitting video as well. Is that a fair assumption of the $1 36,000 cost, Mr. Minister? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Yes, except it's not approximately, it's a negotiated cost. This is the cost that I gave him, the negotiated cost between them. MR. D. ORCHARD: Well naturally, you'd only be using it during the staff hours at the University of Manitoba, presuma bly, because I doubt if you've got any emergency or after-hours availability of psychia trists, or is that a feature of the program as well?

But basically, does this allow you unlim ited use during the day time five days a week? HON. L. DESJARDINS: To start anyway, it'll be four hours a day, five days a week, but in an emergency, it could be arranged through a phone call or something, I'm sure. Right now, the arrangement is for four hours a day, five days a week, because you need somebody at both ends, of course. MR. D. ORCHARD: Does the Mini ster know of any other area where really psychiatric teleconferenclng is used?

Has this been tried in other areas and is there a record of success on this sort of an approach? lt's got to be a fairly unique system, not the same as a one-on-one visit with a psychiatrist and a patient. Could the Minister indicate whether it's been tried in any other areas? HON. L. DESJARDINS: I believe it exists in both London and Toronto and an expert from that area has been in communication, has been discussing this before we decided to go ahead with the staff year in Manitoba.

I imagine that if it works well - we have no reason to think that it wouldn't work well - it could be the start of probably maybe Portage next and other facilities to try to remedy for the shor tage that we've had for so many years. So many things were tried, but seemingly to no avail. There's always been a shortage and it's across Canada, mind you, and we hope that this will assist. MR. D. ORCHARD: Well it can, of course, put services Into communities which have a coaxial ca

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	32-4-28b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	32nd 4th hansardpdf 28b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	029d01b4ab5e04976829dd72f70ee3d97c9f07f0

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