Manitoba Hansard — 3 October 2007 (Sitting 14, 39th Legislature, 1st Session)

39-1-14

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

First Session - Thirty-Ninth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LIX No. 14 – 1:30 p.m., Wednesday, October 3, 2007

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Ninth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ALLAN, Nancy, Hon. St. Vital N.D.P. ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thompson N.D.P. BJORNSON, Peter, Hon. Gimli N.D.P. BLADY, Sharon Kirkfield Park N.D.P. BOROTSIK, Rick Brandon West P.C. BRAUN, Erna Rossmere N.D.P. BRICK, Marilyn St. Norbert N.D.P. BRIESE, Stuart Ste. Rose P.C. CALDWELL, Drew Brandon East N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CULLEN, Cliff Turtle Mountain P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary, Hon. Concordia N.D.P.

DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside P.C. FAURSCHOU, David Portage la Prairie P.C. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach P.C. GRAYDON, Cliff Emerson P.C. HAWRANIK, Gerald Lac du Bonnet P.C. HICKES, George, Hon. Point Douglas N.D.P. HOWARD, Jennifer Fort Rouge N.D.P. IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri, Hon. Fort Garry N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. JHA, Bidhu Radisson N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. The Pas N.D.P. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St.

Johns N.D.P. MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARCELINO, Flor Wellington N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McFADYEN, Hugh Fort Whyte P.C. McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. Lord Roberts N.D.P. MELNICK, Christine, Hon. Riel N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. OSWALD, Theresa, Hon. Seine River N.D.P. PEDERSEN, Blaine Carman P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. RONDEAU, Jim, Hon. Assiniboia N.D.P. ROWAT, Leanne Minnedosa P.C. SARAN, Mohinder The Maples N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELBY, Erin Southdale N.D.P.

SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St. Boniface N.D.P. STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan, Hon. Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. SWAN, Andrew Minto N.D.P. TAILLIEU, Mavis Morris P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P.

727 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, October 3, 2007 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYER ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 6–The Adult Literacy Act Hon. Diane McGifford (Minister of Advanced Education and Literacy): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Education, Citizenship and Youth (Mr. Bjornson), that Bill 6, The Adult Literacy Act;

Loi sur l'alphabétisation des adultes, be now read a first time. Motion presented. Ms. McGifford: Mr. Speaker, the proposed Adult Literacy Act, the first of its kind in Canada, will commit the government of Manitoba to the development, implementation and evaluation of an adult literacy strategy. As part of that strategy the act will establish the Manitoba Adult Literacy program to help fund qualifying agencies that offer programs for adults wanting to improve their literacy skills. I recommend the bill to all members of the Legislature. Thank you. Mr.

Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] PETITIONS Cree Nation Child and Family Caring Agency Mrs. Mavis Taillieu (Morris): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. These are the reasons for this petition. Cree Nation Child and Family Caring Agency is a provincially mandated First Nation child protection and welfare agency. Operated under authority of the Provincial Ministry of Family Services and Housing, the mission is to help keep children, families and communities safe and secure, and promote healthy citizen development and well-being.

Lynn Lake is located 321 kilometres northwest of Thompson, Manitoba on PR #391. There is no social worker living and working in the community. The goals of the ministry are implemented from a distance and supplemented with infrequent and short visits from a social worker located in Thompson. The Lynn Lake Friendship Centre is a designated safe house and receiving home providing accommodations, services and care to children and families experiencing difficulties in a safe environment.

The designated safe house and receiving home are forced closed at this time due to outstanding accounts payable due from Cree Nation Child and Family Caring Agency. Failure to have a social worker based in Lynn Lake providing immediate and sustained services and forcing the receiving home and designated safe house to close, children and families experiencing difficulties in Lynn Lake and area have their health and safety placed in great jeopardy. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Minister of Family Services and Housing (Mr.

Mackintosh) to consider re-staffing the social worker position in Lynn Lake in order to provide needed services to northwestern Manitoba in a timely manner. To request the Minister of Family Services and Housing to consider mediating outstanding accounts payable due to the Lynn Lake Friendship Centre by Cree Nation Child and Family Caring Agency in order to allow the designated safe house and receiving home to resume regular operations and services and continued utilization of these operations and services. Signed by Sheila Dulewich, Nadia Michaluk, Evelyn Sinclair and many, many others. Mr.

Speaker: In accordance with our rule 132(6), when petitions are read they are deemed to be received by the House. Provincial Trunk Highway 2-Glenboro Mr. Cliff Cullen (Turtle Mountain): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. These are the reasons for this petition: As a result of high traffic volumes in the region, there have been numerous accidents and near misses

728 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 3, 2007 along Provincial Trunk Highway No. 2, near the village of Glenboro, leading to serious safety concerns for motorists. The provincial government has refused to construct turning lanes off PTH No. 2 into the village of Glenboro and on to Golf Course Drive, despite the fact that the number of businesses along PTH No. 2 have increased greatly in recent years. We petition the Manitoba Legislative Assembly as follows: To urge the Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation (Mr.

Lemieux) to consider implementing a speed zone on Provincial Trunk Highway No. 2 adjacent to the village of Glenboro. This petition is signed by Caroline Cullen, Jeanette Jefferies, Rick Sjolander and many, many others. Provincial Trunk Highway 10–Brandon Hills Estates Mrs. Leanne Ro wat (Minnedosa): I w i s h t o present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba.

These are the reasons for this petition: Provincial Trunk Highway 10 serves as a route for an ever-increasing volu me of traffic including heavy trucks, farm vehicles, working commuters, tour buses, campers and the transport of dangerous goods. Provincial Highway 10 access travelling south to Brandon Hills Estates is not only unsafe for school students who must cross the busy highway but also for the turning vehicles who must cross a solid line to enter the park community. Traffic levels are expected to escalate further due to projected industrial expansions.

Highway upgrades to Pr ovincial Highway 10 are occurring within a short distance of this site. Priority should be given to this community based on the dangerous access to highway for residents. We petition the Manitoba Legislative Assembly as follows: To urge the Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation (Mr. Lemieux) to act on the situation by considering construction of turning lanes that will reduce the danger posed in traffic access to Brandon Hills Estates, which is home to 85 residents. This petition signed by Elan Boultbe, Lesley Starkell, Dawn Buckley and many, many others, Mr. Speaker.

Provincial Nominee Program Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. The background to this petition is as follows: Immigration is critically important to the future of our province, and the 1998 federal Provincial Nominee Program is the best immigration program that Manitoba has ever had. The current government needs to recognize that the backlog in processing PNP applications is causing additional stress and anxiety for would-be immigrants and their families and friends here in Manitoba.

The current government needs to recognize the unfairness in its current policy on who qualifies to be an applicant, more specifically, by not allowing professionals such as health care workers to be able to apply for PNP certificates in the same way a computer technician would be able to. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the Premier (Mr. Doer) and his government to recognize and acknowledge how important immigration is to our province by improving and strengthening the Provincial Nominee Program. This is signed by M. Guzman, C. Pingal, B.

Cruz and many, many other fine Manitobans. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. * (13:40) TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Ron Lemieux (Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation): I have a few to table. I am pleased to table the 2006-2007, Infrastructure and Transportation's Annual Report. Also, Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to table the 2006-2007 Manitoba Water Services Board Annual Report. Also, I am pleased to table the '06-07 Manitoba Floodway Authority Annual Report. I am pleased to table '06-07 Fleet Vehicle Agency, Materials Distribution Agency, and Crown Lands and Property Agency annual reports.

October 3, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 729 Also, Mr. Speaker, in conclusion, I am pleased to table the '06-07 Canada Manitoba Infrastructure Programs Annual Report. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Minister of Health, I mean, Attorney General. Sorry about that. I had a flashback. Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am pleased to table the following Annual Report: Manitoba Public Insurance Quarterly Financial Report, 2nd Quarter, Six months ended August 31, 2007. Hon.

Nancy Allan (Min ister of Labour and Immigration): I am pleased to table the 2007-2008 Departmental Expenditure Estimates Supplementary Information for Legisl ative Review for the Department of Labour and Immigration. Hon. Theresa Oswald (Minister of Health): I am pleased to table the 2006-2007 Annual Report for Manitoba Health and Healthy Living which includes the Annual Report of the Manitoba Health Services Insurance Plan. Introduction of Guests Mr.

Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like draw the attention of honourable members to the public gallery where we have with us today Rod Berezowicki of the Rural Municipality of Kelsey in The Pas and the Mayor, Herb Jacques, from The Pas. On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today. ORAL QUESTIONS Riding Mountain National Park UNESCO Biosphere Reserve Mr. Hugh McFadyen (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, in 1933, the Prime Minister of the day, R.B.

Bennett, and the Premier of Manitoba at that time, John Bracken, among others, established the Riding Mountain National Park in the western part of our province. Many of us who have grown up in Manitoba have appreciated the wonderful beauty of that park. We've enjoyed its many natural features and certainly it is a very important place to many, many Manitobans. In 1986, the NDP government of Premier Howard Policy–Pawley made–that was an honest mistake, Mr. Speaker.

The NDP government of Premier Howard Pawley made an application to UNESCO to have the Riding Mountain National Park and the area around it declared the Riding Mountain Biosphere Reserve. This application was recognized by UNESCO and it entails the land that runs from the Saskatchewan border to an area east of Riding Mountain National Park. The Web site for Riding Mountain National Park talks about the wonderful ecological interface that exists in that part of Manitoba.

It includes black bears, wolves, elk, moose, white-tailed deer, beaver, turkey vultures, great grey owls and many, many other important animal species within the habitat. The Web site also indicates that one of the biggest threats to that park and reserve is the potential for a hydro-electric transmission corridor. Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Premier can indicate, given the land covered by the UNESCO-recognized Riding Mountain National Park Biosphere Reserve established by the NDP government in 1986 and recognized by UNESCO, whether it is his plan to run his power corridor through that UNESCO-recognized reserve.

Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, continuing on in history, the lines through the Riding Mountain National Park were built in 1950 and 1960 in the Riding Mountain park. In our discussions with the CEO of Hydro, obviously it's our intent in Hydro's siting not to have the bipole through that park. Mr. McFadyen: The daffy detour is getting daffier by the day, Mr. Speaker.

So I want to ask the Premier: Given that the biosphere reserve goes from the Saskatchewan border to an area east of Riding Mountain National Park, this is a UNESCO-recognized area which entails both the park and a significant amount of land around that park, and according to the Web site, Mr. Speaker, contains–sorry, I'll just quote: "The area of the biosphere reserve was home to Aboriginal peoples for millennia, and currently contains four First Nations reserves. Settlement by peoples from Scandinavia, the Ukraine, and the United Kingdom began in the late 1870s and is continuing." Mr.

Speaker, given that the existing map which refers to Manitoba Hydro and the Clean Environment Commission as a source shows the west-side line making a direct southern route from Dauphin to Brandon, I wonder if the Premier can indicate, given that he's given a veto to chiefs on the east side, whether he plans to give a veto to the four First Nations reserves and the other people who have

730 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 3, 2007 enjoyed Riding Mountain National Park and the UNESCO-recognized reserve, whether the people impacted by that decision are going to receive a veto over the location of the power line in western Manitoba. Mr. Doer: I would refer the member opposite to his misinformation. The Grand Chief Fontaine–our expert's legal opinion deals with the issue of a joint agreement on the process, not a joint agreement on land-use planning. Ultimately, we're going to use the principles; actually in the Supreme Court,

section 35, decisions in the Supreme Court. I know he practised law, but we had lawyers look at the document, and obviously we have a number of legal opinions, including the legal opinion from the Aboriginal people that were at that press conference. Secondly, Mr. Speaker, if the member opposite is talking about history, we have to look at history. Mr. Speaker, I remember in recent history, there was a recommendation of the Tritschler commission that Manitoba should develop more coal and natural gas.

Well, thank goodness, some people on this side, our predecessors, had the vision to develop hydro- electric power rather than coal and gas as a Tory vision. Mr. Speaker, the former Premier Schreyer negotiated the Limestone project. He had the vision and the judgment to negotiate the Limestone project. Who were the ones that mothballed the Limestone project? The Conservatives. They did not have the proper judgment. Let history show. Who were the ones, after the former NDP government negotiated the Conawapa project, who were the ones that used their improper judgment and cancelled the Conawapa project?

You go over history. The people that made the correct decisions, the long-term judgments, the right ones, were the people that built Hydro, not the people that mothballed it. Mr. McFadyen: I appreciate that response from the Premier. The bluster certainly gives us a strong cue that he recognizes the folly of the daffy detour that he's going to take the precious energy of Manitobans and waste on Doer's daffy detour through the western side of Manitoba, through a UNESCO-recognized site– Mr. Speaker: Order.

For all members, when referring to another member in this House, it's by the positions they hold through their portfolios or other members by their constituencies. I ask the honourable member to withdraw that. Mr. McFadyen: I withdraw that comment, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition has the floor. * (13:50) Mr. McFadyen: Thank you, Mr . Speaker. The Premier refers to Supreme Court decisions, and I think he'll know, if he reads the decisions, that there's an obligation to consult, but it is not an obligation to cave in in the face of opposition.

There's an obligation to consult and accommodate reasonable concerns, and I wonder why the Premier doesn't have the backbone to stand up to unreasonable demands that may be made by people who aren't interested in having development that many residents on that side of the lake would like. Speaking of common sense, Mr. Speaker, yesterday in Estimates after the Premier had declared in this House that a UNESCO World Heritage Site would occupy land through the proposed route, his Minister of Conservation (Mr.

Struthers) said in Estimates that the proposed site is an area that is one of 8,500 kilometres on the eastern side of Manitoba: Atikaki, Nopiming and the space in between. The Minister of Conservation has said that there is a proposal that has gone forward, it's in Hansard, to deal with that area. It leaves space for both an east- side power line and a UNESCO World Heritage Site, and I can understand why the Member for Dauphin- Roblin wouldn't want the bipole running through his constituency.

So, why won't the Premier take the advice of his Minister of Conservation, establish a UN World Heritage Site in eastern Manitoba, also run an east-side power line, avoid leaving a debt of $2,000 to every Manitoba family and protect the UNESCO site on the west side of Manitoba? Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, the member opposite proposes to reduce the size of the proposed UNESCO World Heritage Site by 80 percent and proposes to dramatically im pact on places like the Poplar River First Nation. An Honourable Member: Point of order. Mr. Doer: It's not a point of order. Mr. Speaker: Order.

October 3, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 731 Point of Order Mr. Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition, on a point of order. Mr. McFadyen: Mr. Speaker, there is, as I understand it, a requirement in Question Period to at least attempt to be remotely factual in responses, and the Premier has indicated that I proposed reducing. It was his Minister of Conservation that proposed reducing the size of the UNESCO World Heritage Site. Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable Government House Leader, on the same point of order. Hon. Dave Chomiak (Government House Leader): Yes, thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I agree, and I listened to the comments of the Minister of Conservation, and I also agree with the Premier. He was trying to correct the misstatements by the Leader of the Opposition, the very individual who wanted to go into Point Douglas and build a water park without talking to anybody. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. I remind members that a point of order is a very serious matter, and I need to be able to hear all the words that are spoken. On the point of order raised by the honourable Leader of the Official Opposition, he does not have a point of order.

It's clearly a dispute over the facts. * * * Mr. Speaker: The honourable First Minister has the floor. Mr. Doer: One of the issues in Manitoba besides the mothball strategy of members opposite, and besides the fact that on every historical judgment they've been wrong and other leaders have been correct, the Conservatives have been wrong, wrong and wrong. Limestone, Conawapa, and the third issue is the whole issue of a transmission line. Hydro recommended to the previous government in 1992 that for increased sales and increased reliability there needs to be another transmission line.

Obviously, the preferred–[interjection] Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: Obviously, Mr. Speaker, the members opposite, when their government had that recommendation, they did not proceed down the east side of Lake Winnipeg. They did not proceed with that proposed transmission line. We have been dealing with this issue because the issue of dithering is not acceptable. It is absolutely the worst course of action to take the politically expedient route and do nothing. To do nothing is the politically easier route.

You look at any transmission line anywhere in North America; there are always other routes that are more preferable in terms of the debate. There are always other routes that are cheaper in terms of the debate, and at the end of the day, you have to stand up and make a decision. That's why I'm proud we stood up and did the Limestone dam, Mr. Speaker, which has made hundreds of millions of dollars for Manitoba. That's why we put Conawapa back on the proposal stage to build it. That's why we're building at Nelson House.

That's why we're building an office building for Hydro in downtown Winnipeg instead of the suburbs. The members opposite would have saved a few dollars on land cost and built it on Waverley. Our vision, our judgment was to build it downtown. It's the right vision and judgment, and history will show us to be correct. Auto Theft Bait Cars Mr. Gerald Hawranik (Lac du Bonnet): Under a bait car program, when a car is stolen, the location of a vehicle is tracked and police respond. The engine is shut down by remote control and thieves are arrested, preventing property damage and personal injury.

In 2004, the Winnipeg Police Service stated that bait cars are a tremendous advantage to law enforcement. It's a great tool to be able to stop auto theft. The police agree with the bait car program; the minister does not. So I ask the Minister of Justice: Why does he refuse to implement a bait car program in Manitoba? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, we will take directions from the police.

As I said many times in this House, members opposite always have bold suggestions about things that are unworkable: water parks in Point Douglas; Hydro headquarters out on Waverley; building jails instead of hospitals. We've had that in this province. We listen to what the police say. We announced we've got more police in schools. Members said nothing about it. We offered bait cars

732 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 3, 2007 to the City of Winnipeg police; if the City of Winnipeg police want to reinstate the program, that's their decision. The City of Winnipeg police had licence plate monitors that they put in place using technology; that's what they wanted to do. They wanted expanded police services. We doubled the police services. When members opposite were in government, they did nothing in that regard. We doubled, Mr. Speaker. If bait cars are something that is requested, they could make a difference in the city of Winnipeg, we'd be happy to do it.

We will take our advice from the City of Winnipeg. Mr. Hawranik: Mr. Speaker, at the same time the policies of this minister have doubled auto thefts in Manitoba, the Minister of Justice claims he's doing everything in his power to combat auto theft. However, he abandoned the bait car program in 2001. According to the minister's own political staff, he abandoned it because he does not know where to put the thief. Here's a novel suggestion: put them in jail. So I ask the Minister of Justice: Is he refusing to implement a bait car program because he has no space in provincial jails? Mr.

Chomiak: As the member would know during Estimates, we're at our highest levels of incarceration in history, Mr. Speaker. We also have the highest level of programming, and if the program is so bad, perhaps the member could explain to me why the federal government, Stockwell Day and Minister Toews, came to Winnip eg two weeks ago and announced enhancement of our auto theft program, 1.5 million from the federal government to enhance our auto theft program. Perhaps he should talk to the minister of the federal government who thought they should put more money into our program.

Regarding bait cars, I talked to a 19-year-old the other day who said they knew every single car in the city of Winnipeg that's used on the mobile recognizer, photo radar. The kids know what the cars are, Mr. Speaker. The member opposite has no idea what the level is out there. Mr. Hawranik: Mr. Speaker, in British Columbia, armed with an effective bait car program, within the course of one month the police nabbed six of the top 10 most wanted car thieves in the province. Those results speak for themselves.

In Manitoba, the minister refuses to catch our car thieves, because in the words of his own political staff: Where will we put them? So I ask the Minister of Justice: Why not put them where they belong? Put them in jail. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, today at the Chamber of Commerce, the incoming chairman talked about the reduction of auto theft in Winnipeg of 25 percent. Some people are very happy, Winnipeg Police, City of Winnipeg and the citizens of Winnipeg, that we've reduced auto theft by 25 percent. But that's not enough. Members opposite voted against additional police officers in Winnipeg.

Members opposite voted against our enhanced auto strategy. Members opposite voted against every single strategy and now they want a one-trick pony. They want to put bait cars that everyone recognizes in Winnipeg. The kids that are perhaps high on intoxicants are going to solicit and sort of walk into a bait car that's, say, a Lexus that everyone knows is going to be a bait car. I will listen to the City of Winnipeg police department 100 times out of 100 rather than the Member from Lac– Mr Speaker: Order. * (14:00) Spirited Energy Advertising Campaign Additional Funding Mrs. Leanne Rowat (Minnedosa): Mr.

Speaker, let me get this straight. This government says no to bait cars, but they're willing to find another million dollars for the failed Spirited Energy campaign. The Premier (Mr. Doer) said the Spirited Energy campaign would grow on us. Turns out it grew like a wart, and like a wart it's unsightly, it's embarrassing and it just won't seem to go away. Mr. Speaker, I ask the Minister of Competitiveness: How can he justify another million dollars for the Spirited Energy campaign and we have no money for bait cars? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, the member is wrong.

The member is wrong. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Chomiak: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We have offered and provided 155 additional police officers, including doubling the auto theft unit. MPI offered bait cars and funding to the City of Winnipeg police department who utilized it for a while but have now, through our auto theft strategy, reduced auto theft by 25 percent. The member opposite is wrong factually. She is wrong in terms of the information she brought

October 3, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 733 to this Chamber. She ought to apologize. She ought to apologize for bringing wrong facts to this Chamber. Auditor General's Report Mrs. Leanne Ro wat (Minnedosa): Mr. Speaker, the minister suggested yesterday new money should be spent on the energy campaign. He says this before the Auditor General even has a chance to report back to the House on the Spirited Energy campaign. This disrespect for the independent office of the Auditor General is the perfect example of this government's arrogance. Mr.

Speaker, I ask the minister: Why did this government agree in Public Accounts to have the Auditor General investigate if they were going to pass judgment before he r findings were even published? Hon. Jim Rondeau (Minister of Science, Technology, Energy and Mines): Mr. Speaker, I can assure this House and all members that there will be no additional money spent on the Spirited Energy campaign. We're awaiting a report from the Auditor General. There will be no new money spent on the Spirited Energy campaign until the report, and we eagerly anticipate a report that was recommended by all parties in this Chamber.

We're not moving ahead with it until we receive the report. Recent Spending Mrs. Leanne Rowat (Minnedosa): Yesterday [inaudible] announces a million dollars and today he backtracks. Mr. Speaker, we were all told that no money would be spent on the branding boondoggle until the Auditor General reported. Yet the Spirited Energy street teams were out in full force at Folklorama in the middle of the Auditor General's investigation. As if passing off Crown corporations as private donors and spending money on beer and wine was not enough, Mr.

Speaker, I ask the minister: How much money was spent on the Spirited Energy campaign during the Auditor General's investigation? Hon. Jim Rondeau (Minister of Science, Technology, Energy and Mines): Mr. Speaker, as the former minister said, there was some small maintenance of the Spirited Energy campaign, but what that was, was, and I would like to say that it was approximately $200,000 to maintain the brand. What that involved– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Rondeau: –it was $200,000 approximately, but what that was was for the Web site for the campaign that was out there.

No new initiatives were undertaken. No new moves were done. The campaign's been put on hold until the Auditor General reports. There are no new initiatives. So, what we have is an Auditor General's report that's coming. We will not move forward on the campaign until after we receive the report, and we're eagerly awaiting an all-party report. That's where we're going. We have not moved forward in the campaign. Flin Flon Soil Contamination Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): Mr.

Speaker, it seems that this NDP government has been sitting on a 2006 Manitoba Conservation report that found unsafe levels of metal such as arsenic, lead and mercury in some soil samples from Flin Flon. Some of these elevated levels were in samples taken from playgrounds and a schoolyard. Given that arsenic is a known carcin ogen, these findings are extremely disturbing to members of this side of the House as well as many Manitobans. Mr.

Speaker, can the Minister of Conservation explain why he has been sitting on a report that shows the dangerous levels of toxic elements were above the recommended Canadian standards for human health? Hon. Stan Struthers (Min ister of Conservation): I'd recommend to the critic across the way that she reads the Flin Flon Reminder of July 31 where all this was made public. It was there for the citizens of Flin Flon. I don't know why it is that she thinks that anybody was sitting on it, that this was secret. She's looking for a conspiracy theory here, Mr. Speaker. It does not exist. Mrs.

Stefanson: What we're looking for, Mr. Speaker, from this government is a little leadership when it comes to issues such as toxic waste in our province. Mr. Speaker, the report recommends that Flin Flon and area residents take steps to minimize their exposure, including reminding children to keep their hands out of their mouths when playing outside, keep

734 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 3, 2007 children's toys and play areas clean and brushing pets often. A local nursery school teacher calls the situation, and I quote, kind of scary. Can the Minister of Conservation explain what his department is going to do to assure Flin Flon residents that it is safe for their children to play outdoors? Mr. Struthers: Mr. Speaker, when colleagues of hers sat on this side of the House, the standard procedure was to hide these reports, not move forward on it, not include the people of the city of Flin Flon. That was secretive. That was not open.

That was not transparent. What we did was the opposite, Mr. Speaker. We put it in the Flin Flon Reminder. If she doesn't know, that's the paper in Flin Flon. She should go look it up. She should read that. People in the Healthy Flin Flon committee have been working with the Department of Conservation to move forward and put in place some actions that actually do protect. Mr. Speaker, for crying out loud, it was on our Web site. She could have read it there. Mrs. Stefanson: Mr. Speaker, what people are looking for is action on this government. They're not talking about Web sites or anything else.

They're looking for action. The report also states that a human health risk assessment will be undertaken and that plans are underway for a public presentation and discussion of the results of the soil survey. The report states that further details will be provided in the months ahead. It's important to note soil surveys were undertaken in 2006. The Manitoba Conservation report on the findings is dated July 2007 and we're now into October. Mr.

Speaker, can the Minister of Conservation explain to Flin Flon residents how long they will have to wait for a human health risk assessment and what steps will be taken to address this very important issue to the people of Flin Flon and to all Manitobans? Mr. Struthers: Do your homework. That meeting took place last week, a meeting with Flin Flon residents. Mr. Speaker, today, at least two-and-a-half months late, this critic gets up and says we should do a health assessment. It's already been done. Get your act together. Mr. Speaker: Order. * (14:10) Tire Recycling Program Receivership of Recycler in Winkler Mr.

Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr. Speaker, it's a sad day when the Minister of Conservation does not take the matters that are before Manitobans regarding their health, safety and the environment seriously. Mr. Speaker, the tire recycling program in this province has been in difficulty for some time. The government has known about it, but the minister and the government have sat on their behind and dithered while Winkler tire recycling went into receivership, yet recommendations were made to this government early this spring and have not been acted on.

I want to ask the Minister of Conservation why he has allowed this situation to arise without taking action, given that he was given recommendations early this spring. Hon. Stan Struthers (Min ister of Conservation): I would ask that the Member for Russell be responsible in the way he characterizes this situation. Tire recycling is important in this province. It's important to this side of the government and it's important to Manitobans.

That's why this side of the House, that's why this government has been supportive of the Tire Stewardship Board and supported it in its mandate to deal with the tire recycling in this provin ce. The Tire Stewardship Board is the one that is responsible for setting the credits that eventually go to the tire recyclers. The best piece of advice that I got on this was from the interim board, which gave me the advice that those tire credits, which were the same under previous governments, were appropriate under this government. Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Speaker, perhaps the minister should apprise himself of the facts of this issue and then he would be more credible when he stood up in the House. The mismanagement of this issue has led to a tire recycler closing his doors and going into receivership. That's one of two tire recyclers in this province. Mr. Speaker, the other operation has indicated that government has been sitting on its behind and not dealing with the recommendations that it had before it. I want to ask the minister if he can explain

October 3, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 735 what commitment he has to the tire recycling program of this province, given what he has not been doing in terms of moving ahead with the recommendations. Mr. Struthers: The original Tire Stewardship Board, the interim Tire Stewardship Board, and the new Tire Stewardship Manitoba have all said to me that it is the responsibility of the Tire Stewardship Manitoba, the new board we're heading to, to set those credits that benefit the recyclers. This is a private company.

It's always been a private company and the government has not been responsible for directly giving money to that private company. The receiver in this case will manage and will keep the employees busy at the Tire Recycling Corporation. We as government need to continue on with working with the new Stewardship Manitoba to make sure that we have in place a long-term stable tire recycling program that doesn't allow all those tires to land in the landfills of this province. Future of Program Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr. Speaker, it's very evident that the current situation is unsustainable.

While the government continues to sit on its behind and do nothing, mounds of tires are going to start accumulating in communities across this province. This presents an excellent breeding ground for mosquitoes, causing the prospect of the expansion of West Nile in Manitoba. I want to ask the minister what his immediate plans are to deal with this situation and to deal with the mounds of tires that are going to be showing up in this province. Hon.

Stan Struthers (Min ister of Conservation): The diligent work of this government and members of the Tire Stewardship Board cleaned up the very tires that the member across the way is now talking about. This government flowed to the Tire Stewardship Board $800,000 to help in the clean-up of stockpiling tires. So I think the member opposite better get his act together before he stands up in Question Period, Mr. Speaker. Land Transfer Agreement Consultations in Roseau River and Rosser Mr. Ralph Eichler (Lakeside): Mr.

Speaker, my colleagues and I strongly support First Nations receiving treaty land that it is entitled to under treaty land agreements. In fact, the Treaty Land Entitlement Framework Agreement and the individual TLE agreements were signed under a PC government. What we don't support is th e fact that 35 acres of land were transferred to Roseau River First Nation in the R.M. of Rosser without meaningful input from the municipality.

My question to the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs: Can he indicate why his government transferred land without meaningful consultation and why were the rights of residents of Rosser ignored, Mr. Speaker? Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs): Mr.

Speaker, the issue of Treaty Land Entitlement is a very important one in this province, and I find it ironic that once again we're seeing clear evidence from the members opposite, the Conservatives, how little they have recognized what has been happening in terms of the attempts, whether it be on the east side of Lake Winnipeg, the attempts in terms of Treaty Land Entitlement to do what is right in terms of our relations with First Nations people. I also find it strange, Mr.

Speaker, that he hasn't bothered to talk to his federal counterparts because it was Jim Prentice, the former Minister of Indian Affairs, that took a lead role in trying to move forward Treaty Land Entitlement working with the Province of Manitoba. Indeed, we in this province support those efforts. I would suggest he may want to call the current minister, Chuck Strahl, because even the Conservatives in Ottawa get it, even if the members opposite, the Conservatives in Manitoba, don't. Mr. Eichler: Mr.

Speaker, the extensive consultation was a single meeting between the R.M. of Rosser and Roseau River, and I quote, indicating Roseau River First Nation intends to maintain the land's current status as agriculture. Since that time, Chief Terry Nelson has publicly stated he plans to develop a gas bar, eventually VLTs. The R.M.'s concern is that their long tradition as an agricultural community is not being respected. In fact, the R.M. turned down a prior proposal of a gas bar across from the highway from Roseau River's land. The R.M. does not support this type of commercial development at that location. Mr.

Speaker, what is the minister prepared to do today to ensure residents of the R.M. of Rosser have the say in what sort of development takes place within their own municipality?

736 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 3, 2007 Mr. Ashton: Well, Mr. Speaker, we all respect our municipalities, certainly as Minister responsible for Intergovernmental Affairs, I do. But let's not ignore the fact that the real root issue with Treaty Land Entitlement is the fact that there are many First Nations in this province that never received the land they were entitled to under the treaties, treaties which date back more than a century. What I notice, Mr.

Speaker, is that the member opposite never once referenced in his comments that underlying feature, and I would suggest that members opposite, if they truly wanted to develop this province, would understand. We should be proud of the fact that we're the province with the highest per capita number of First Nations and Métis people, Mr. Speaker. We can develop by working in co-operation with First Nations. I wish the member opposite would do that instead of opposing Treaty Land Entitlement. Mr. Eichler: I remind the Member for Thompson that it was a PC government that signed the agreement.

Obviously, he's off-track. Mr. Speaker, the Province has committed to complete a transfer of 1.2 million acres of Treaty Land Entitlement over the next four years. If the process that took place at Rosser is repeated, the results will be disastrous. Can the minister assure Manitobans the lack of consultation in Rosser will not be repeated? Can he commit to a full consultation process for all new Treaty Land Entitlement transfers within Manitoba? Or does he expect Manitobans to sit back and watch their rights be trampled on by this government, Mr. Speaker? Mr. Ashton: Mr.

Speaker, the Conservatives didn't transfer a single acre when it came to Treaty Land Entitlement, and I would suggest that there's a pattern in questions from members opposite. Last week, they wanted us to repeat Ipperwash when it came to Hollow Water, Mr. Speaker. You know, the Mike Harris agenda. This week they talk about 16 select Manitobans making decisions on the east side. Those are the chiefs representing the First Nations on the east side. Today, they're getting up and saying that we should rip up a process that even the Conservatives in Ottawa get. Let's understand one thing.

This Conservative opposition is further right wing than the Harper government. You know what? They're out of touch with Manitobans who understand the future is by working in partnership with First Nations, not against them. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable Member for River Heights has the floor. * (14:20) Flin Flon Soil Contamination Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): To the Premier, Mr. Speaker, it is hardly enough to give the people in Flin Flon a reminder that there are very toxic levels in the playgrounds and the schoolyards in some areas of Flin Flon and adjacent Creighton.

The report documents serious levels of contamination with up to 10 times the acceptable concentration of lead, mercury or arsenic. I ask the Premier: Have every one of the sites where children play been fully cleaned up now? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Well, Mr. Speaker, just a couple of points. The whole study was initiated by us to try to determine what has been dealt with in terms of remediation and what needs to be done. When we got that information, we made it available to the public last July with public health officers who were there. I would point out there have been major reductions in emissions.

The acid rain agreement that was signed by the former prime minister did include money for the Flin Flon smelter, and I believe there's been the elimination of the zinc, or copper, emissions in that area. Mr. Speaker, the agreement, by the way, was implemented by the government in '92 after being negotiated, I believe, in the mid-80s. There was an additional amount of money, some $25 million, ordered by the provincial government to reduce emissions in the early part of this decade, and we will continue to identify a plan to clean up and reduce emissions, which is the fundamental problem.

I would point out that the Flin Flon mine and smelter is better today than it was 20 years ago, but it's still got very high emissions, and it's a very serious challenge for whoever's in government because, on the one hand, you have hundreds and hundreds of families that rely on the income in that area, and on the other hand, we do not want any children playing in areas. That's why we gave public notification.

October 3, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 737 Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, the government has known for eight years that this was a concern, and they have known for one year that there is serious contamination in places where children play, tiny tot lots, schoolyards, playgrounds. I ask the Premier: Has he now fully cleaned up all those areas where children play? Hon. Stan Struthers (Min ister of Conservation): Mr.

Speaker, when we received the results of the study that we initiated, that we took on, on behalf of people living in Flin Flon, we made sure that the people of Flin Flon were the first to know what those issues were that we studied. I would ask that members opposite at least try to be accurate on this. Try to be accurate. Mr. Speaker, when we found out through our study that there were issues to be dealt with, we moved as quickly as we could in July to make sure that the people of Flin Flon were made aware of that, and we worked with– Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr.

Gerrard: You could have, I say to the Premier and his government, you could have at least ensured that the areas where children are playing were cleaned up promptly. The alternative certainly is, instead of having this cleaned up, at least put big billboards going into Flin Flon, so that when you've got tourists and visitors, they will be aware that kids should not be putting their hands in their mouths, that any time anybody goes outside in Flin Flon, they should wash their hands. There is a serious problem here.

Why have you not, in one year, looked after the children at least, and made sure that the place where children play is safe? Mr. Doer: Well, Mr. Speaker, I find it passing strange because the member opposite would know that this situation goes back 70 or 80 years, and the Mulroney government, to their credit, negotiated an acid rain agreement that did reduce emissions dramatically in Flin Flon. We have since ordered a $25-million reduction in emissions. We also have invested money in the last number of years, on an eco-green project with Creighton and Flin Flon because it is actually across the border.

It is actually within national jurisdiction because it is across the border. We have had removal of soil in some areas, introduction of alternative gardens and grass and other projects. It is a work in progress. We have to continue to do more. We have not just sat back on this issue, we have actually reduced emissions and increased the eco-green area in Flin Flon and Creighton and increased by far the secret reports that have been sitting in government for decades that haven't been released to the people of Flin Flon and Creighton and made those public to be able to be informed, first of all.

Yes, more action is necessary, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Centre Albert-Galliot Mr. Blaine Pedersen (Carman): Mr. Speaker, it was my pleasure to attend the official opening of the Centre Albert-Galliot. This centre serves the communities of Notre-Dame-de-Lourdes and Saint-Léon. With their proud Francophone heritage and citizens, these communities will welcome the bilingual services offered. As the MLA for Carman, I would like to recognize and thank the individuals involved in this project.

Without people such as Paul Cenerini, chair of the building community, this important project could not have taken shape. With health care in crisis in the rural area, I am glad to see that this facility was opened because the residents of Carman constituency and all Manitobans deserve quality health care close to home. Community members are excited to see the primary care services offered at Centre Albert-Galliot. They are looking forward to working with the talented and dedicated staff that include the medical professionals, dietician, pharmacy staff and mental health care workers.

Recovery for patients will be aided by local access to ch iropractic, occupational, massage and physiotherapy. Many seniors will benefit from the enhanced home care services. Additional services include the use of a library, exercise centre and free Internet access. Félicitations aux communautés de Notre-Dame- de-Lourdes et Saint-Léon pour la grande ouverture du Centre Albert-Galliot . Le centre offrira des traitements médicaux dans les deux langues officielles du Canada. Nous sommes tous fiers d'avoir un nouveau centre médical dans la province du Manitoba. Merci.

Translation Congratulations to the communities of Notre-Dame- de-Lourdes and Saint-Léon on the grand opening of the Centre Albert-Galliot. The centre will offer

738 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 3, 2007 medical treatment in both official languages. We are all proud to have a new medical centre in the province of Manitoba. Thank you. Manitoba Health Auxiliaries Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): Mr. Speaker, volunteers make a world of difference in our health- care system. A number of those hardworking volunteers came together last weekend, September 28-30, in Creighton, Saskatchewan, at the 61st annual conference of the Manitoba Health Auxiliaries. The gathering was aptly named Sharing and Caring. Approximately 150 delegates participated in the conference.

Fin Flon health auxiliary members were great hosts. Friday evening was devoted to registration and the president's wine and cheese reception. Along with other elected offici als from Denare Beach, Flin Flon and Creighton, I was delighted to bring greetings at the Saturd ay breakfast. Saturday afternoon speakers were Colleen Wickens and Brent Zettl. The evening concluded with a fine banquet. Delegates came from all parts of the province. I was particularly pleased to see a delegation from Snow Lake.

The presiden t of the Saskatchewan organization, Barb Ell, was present as well as the national president of the Canadian Health Auxiliaries Association, Joyce Nash. All events took place in the Creighton community hall. Mr. Speaker, I would ask that all members join me in acknowledging the very important work done by the Manitoba health auxiliaries. They make a real and positive difference in the lives of patients and staff in Manitoba hospitals.

From involvement with the knitting cabinet at the hospital, to visiting, to working at the Christmas crafts sale, to working with the hospital staff, to numerous fundraisers, the health auxiliaries are there. They provide both moral and material support. The passion that the members of health auxiliaries show for people in care and staff make them stellar humanitarians. They reach out and help patients when they are most vulnerable. I know I speak for all my colleagues when I say that their work does not go unnoticed. It was a pleasure to join them in their Sharing and Caring. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Immigration to Brandon Mr. Rick Borotsik (Brandon West): Mr. Speaker, Brandon is a progressive and growing city. New residents are moving from across Manitoba and Canada to Brandon. One of the most rewarding transformations is the changing face of my community. With the expansion of Maple Leaf Pork, we have been privileged to welcome new citizens from across the globe, from countries such as El Salvador, China, Columbia, Mexico, and the Ukraine. The addition of new cultures is making Brandon a better and more diverse place to live.

As the MLA for Brandon West on behalf of the Progressive Conservative caucus, it's my honour and my pleasure to welcome each and every new citizen to the city of Brandon. Our population continues to grow as workers relocate their families. Our schools are filled with new faces and eager students. On the streets we can hear a mixture of languages. With our latest residents we are lucky enough to enjoy an insurgence of new food, entertainment and culture. Mr. Speaker, this is an exciting time for the city of Brandon.

It is important to recognize the significant role that the business community is playing in Brandon's growth, not only Maple Leaf but many other businesses, trades and professionals. They have provided employment and other significant support in settling newcomers into their lives in Brandon. Numerous local organizations and non-profit groups must be commended for their efforts as well. They have been friendly and helpful to acclimatize newcomers in many ways, including assisting with language skills. I have met many of the newcomers and their families.

Their enthusiasm and joy in coming to Canada is inspiring and should be inspiring to all of us. I look forward to meeting more new friends and welcome our newest valuable community members. Brandon has a strong future and we are embracing the spirit of multiculturalism. I know our city will continue to attract new citizens and grow. We welcome them, Mr. Speaker, to Friendly Manitoba. Thank you. * (14:30) Northeast Pioneers Greenway Ms. Erna Braun (Rossmere): M r .

S p e a k e r , w e a l l know that good recreational facilities are good for communities, and the new Northeast Pioneers Greenway in my constituency of Rossmere is no exception. I was pleased to join the Premier (Mr. Doer) at the opening of phase 1 of the Northeast Pioneers Greenway on September 27, 2007. This

October 3, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 739 trail will revolutionize how the residents in my community work and play. Quality recreation can be enjoyed by all members of the community. This trail serves as a wonderful place to play, explore and get to know the neighbourhood while becoming active. It is fantastic to see the positive impact the trail is having on the quality of life of many residents. I see young families pushing strollers and letting youngsters run without fear of traffic. This is a place where seniors and youth alike can take in the beauty of the outdoors.

I am proud to be part of a government that values developing quality recreation for our communities. Mr. Speaker, this trail will also provide an emission-free way for residents to link up with other parts of the city. The trail stretches from Springfield Road in the north to Herbert Avenue in the south. Community members are already working hard to complete phase 2 of the pr oject. Eventually a trail will stretch from Birds Hill Park to Herbert Avenue. This will make it possible for residents to travel and commute in an environmentally friendly way in their neighbourhoods and to renowned Manitoba attractions.

A special congratulations is in order for the River East Neighbourhood Network, as well as the volunteers and organizers who made this project a reality. I would ask that all honourable members join with me in celebrating the opening of the Northeast Pioneers Greenway. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Flin Flon Soil Contamination Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): A 2006 report by Manitoba Conservation shows very serious levels of contamination by heavy metals like arsenic, lead and mercury in the Flin Flon area. This report sampled children's playgrounds including tot lots with sandboxes and schoolyards.

Quite a number of park playground sites and at least two schoolyard sites were found to contain concentrations of arsenic, lead and/or mercury which are higher than acceptable levels with one park playground area having six times the acceptable concentration of arsenic and another park playground site having 10 times the acceptable level of mercury. The government has had the report for one year, but sadly the NDP government has not acted to fully protect children playing in schoolyards and playgrounds in Flin Flon. The government should have acted immediately to protect the children in Flin Flon.

Children deserve safe areas to play. That the government failed to act immediately when children's health and well-b eing is in danger shows an appalling lack of concern for the health of children in our province. ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS Hon. Dave Chomiak (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I thank the members of the House for their rapt attention, and I'd like to ask that the Committee of Supply be called. Mr. Speaker: The House will now resolve into Committee of Supply. Madam Deputy Speaker and the Chairs, please proceed to the respective rooms you'll be chairing.

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) ADVANCED EDUCATION AND LITERACY * (14:40) Madam Chairperson (Marilyn Brick): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This Committee of Supply will now resume consideration of the Estimates for the Department of Advanced Education and Literacy. As had been previously agreed, questioning for this department will proceed in a global manner. The floor is now open for questions. Hon. Diane McGifford (Minister of Advanced Education and Literacy): Before the first question, may I introduce staff again, because we do have a new person with us today.

I think yesterday we met Elaine Phillips, who is acting deputy minister. Then the gentleman over here is Claude Fortier, who is the executive financial officer, shared services between us and the other education department. The new person is Sid Rogers, who is the secretary to the Council on Post-Secondary Education, and I'm sure that the members recognize Ray Karasevich, who was w ith us yesterday, and David Reich, who's from Student Aid. I just wanted to introduce the staff. Madam Chairperson: We thank the minister for that. Mr.

Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Thank you, Madam Chair, and the Member for Charleswood (Mrs. Driedger).

740 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 3, 2007 Just a few minutes just on one area that I have some concern with for this particular year, and that's in regard to student visas that are issued from abroad, and to get a sense from our post-secondary institutions what type of numbers we actually look at. I wonder if the minister could indicate if any of the staff present would be able to provide some sort of numbers with respect to numbers of student visas that are in the province. Ms.

McGifford: I want to tell the member that international education falls under the ambit of Competitiveness, Training and Trade, and perhaps he should ask his questions in the Estimates of CTT. Mr. Lamoureux: Given the impact foreign students have on our facilities here, is the department aware of anything in terms of numbers that are in our facilities? Ms. McGifford: I see that there's been a 283.2 percent increase, but if the member's looking for numbers, I think I had heard from the international education folks, myself, that the numbers of international students in Manitoba were around 10,000. Mr.

Lamoureux: Again, it's just because this is something that comes up quite often in discussions that I have with people in terms of being able to get individuals from abroad to be able to come over in order to study. That applies to post-secondary and all the way to elementary schools, so it's just to try to solicit some feedback from the minister in terms of where does she see the numbers in the future. Would she encourage more people from abroad to request visas to be able to attend our post- secondary institutions? Does she feel that this is an area where we are not necessarily promoting?

Where's the government coming from with regard to student visas? Ms. McGifford: Well, as I said, international education is the purview of Competitiveness, Training and Trade. If the member is asking me as the Minister of Advanced Education about my concerns or my sense of the whole situation, I think the internationalization of education is a great thing. I think it's very healthful for students from Manitoba, or indeed from Canada, to study abroad as well as to have students from abroad study here in Canada. I think the reasons are pretty obvious. Cultural exchange is extremely important.

If one wants to be more pragmatic about it, I suppose we all know, and I know the Member for Inkster knows very well, the importance to our country of immigration and immigrants. I think the students who study here are more likely to later on want to become citizens, and well-trained students who love our country will make important contributions. So my sense is, the more exchange we have between students here and abroad and vice versa, the better it is.

If I may be so idealistic at this point, the better it is for our world because I believe that kind of interchange would lead to some sort of understanding between people. Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Chair, I'm encouraged by what I'm hearing from the minister. I think that that is indeed the right approach at looking at foreign students that would like to be able to study in the province, and I would go further to, not necessarily knowing the hard numbers, I would like to think that we have the ability within our institutions to look at expanding or opening our doors even more so.

That's the reason why I ask for the numbers, and if it is possible, I know this might not necessarily be the most appropriate branch, if it is possible to get those types of numbers, it would be greatly appreciated. I would ask, not right now, whether it's some time in the next number of months, I would very much appreciate that. * (14:50) Ms. McGifford: I thank the member for his comments. We have one hard number for the member, and that's that the University of Manitoba, international students are, as we understand, 2,782.

I had assumed, when I used the figure about 10,000 students in Manitoba, that the member was also referring to students in the public school system. There are quite a few students in the public school system, and then, of course, at our other universities and colleges. I'm sure the member knows as well that most of our colleges and universities have programs abroad. For example, what comes to mind right now for me, is that Red River College has several programs in Chile. So that's another way of encouraging international exchanges. Mrs.

Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): I have some new figures as of last evening in terms of deferred maintenance. I would like to ask the minister if these numbers are close to the same information she has, that the University of Manitoba has a deferred maintenance of $211 million, not the 166 that I had believed earlier, that the University of Winnipeg was

October 3, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 741 around $20 million and Brandon $16 million. Would all of these numbers be accurate in terms of deferred maintenance requirements? Ms. McGifford: I understand that if you take those numbers as provided without any analysis whatsoever, they may be accurate. Mrs. Driedger: The minister was indicating yesterday that there is $3 million made available for the highest priorities in maintenance on an annual basis. Did I understand that correctly? Ms. McGifford: Yes, that is true. Mrs. Driedger: Is the $3 million spread over all post-secondary institutions in Manitoba?

Ms. McGifford: I understand that the capital for all universities is $12.3 million, and, furthermore, colleges receive their capital money through MIT. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister indicate how long that $3 million annually has been in place? Ms. McGifford: I understand that number has been in place for quite a long time. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister be more specific in terms of what that means in terms of number of years? Ms. McGifford: I'll have to get back to the member. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister indicate, I understand there are some f aculties that have agreed to raise their tuitions.

I wonder if the minister could indicate which faculties have gone down that road. Ms. McGifford: Yes, I can. The first faculty was Dentistry, followed by Pharmacy, Law, Engineering, and I believe there is one more faculty. We're just checking. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm still on the mike. There's been four and I listed the four. Mrs. Driedger: Are all of these done by referendum by students? Ms. McGifford: Madam Chair, indeed, they aren't, and this is interesting, too, because the first school that wished to have increased fees was Dentistry.

That was, I think, back in 2002, but it may be '01; I'd have to check on that date to be absolutely accurate. At that time the president of the university, the dean of Dentistry, and the vice- president administrative, Mike McAdam at that time came to see me, and they put forward a very compelling case, I thought. So we weighed and measured it within the department and came up with a list of five criteria, one of which was–it was clear that there was support from students for the implementation of higher fees.

But the department has never confused that with the referendum, and indeed when Dentistry received its increase, there was no referendum. We met with the student council. The student council came with the president, and I'm talking about the students from the Dentistry, not UMSU, came with the president and with the other officials, and they were very supportive, and we considered that support. And the same with Ph armacy. There was no referendum in Pharmacy.

But when Law was requesting an increase, the law school made a decision itself to have a referendum, and since then there was a referendum in Engineering, but no one asked me if I thought there should be a referendum. They went ahead and had a referendum. So it's really the institutions who made that decision; it wasn't ever the department. Mrs. Driedger: Does the minister have to approve all of these tuition increases through her office? Ms. McGifford: Yes. There are five criteria, and I'll read them into the record:

(1) The higher tuition or other proposed fee would not have adverse effects on accessibility to the program in question;

(2) Higher tuition fees would not have adverse effects on the Manitoba labour market. We would want to ensure that higher tuition fees would not reduce the number of students choosing to enrol in the faculty;

(3) The field of study for which the exception was being requested was one in which it was clear that graduation rates were high, hence law, for example. As well, it would also be important to demonstrate that the average earned income of graduates shortly after graduation was high enough in order to have sufficient funds to pay the higher student loans that would be required to pay the increased tuition. Now there have been some changes since then with our 60 percent tax rebate on tuition.

(4) The program had especially high costs and quality requirements that warranted the additional tuition; and

(5) It was clear that there was support from students for the implementation of higher fees.

742 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 3, 2007 So various faculties have approached these in various ways. What happens is, the process is that it's discussed internally. I presume that the dean of the faculty under question approaches the president, and then the president and her folks make some decision. Then they usually go to the Council on Post- Secondary Education, and then a recommendation usually comes to the minister. And I have agreed to all four of those increases. Mrs.

Driedger: I note that in some of the press clippings related to the Engineering tuition hike, there were some comments raised about the danger of losing accreditation, and there was some concern that that might be a possibility unless they were able to raise their tuition to have the money in order to have the quality of education that was important. Has the minister seen the accreditation results from the Engineering faculty? Ms. McGifford: The Council on Post-Secondary Education has seen them. * (15:00) Mrs.

Driedger: In discussion wi th the Council on Post-Secondary Education, which the minister has indicated she meets with them regularly, what kind of an interchange has occurred between the minister and COPSE in regard to those accreditation results? I guess I would also ask what are their accreditation results? Ms. McGifford: Madam Chair, we were pleased with the results. Though I understand we didn't get the very highest results, we were pleased with the results that we got. Mrs.

Driedger: I'd like to thank the minister for providing that information and the criteria that is used to address these requests for an increase in tuition. I'm also aware from information that the total credit hours has decreased by 3 percent at the University of Manitoba. That information came out at the AGM. Can the minister indicate what the reason is for a decrease in the credit hours? Ms. McGifford: The slight decline that the member referred to is due to demographics. We know that there are fewer students enrolled, fewer students graduating from high school.

I suppose it's the end of the echo and beginning of some other trend yet to be named, and there are fewer students in the public school system. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister indicate whether student residences at post-secondary institutions, or universities, I guess, pay property taxes? Ms. McGifford: Yes, they do. Mrs. Driedger: Would it be accurate to say that in Manitoba those are the only student residences that are in the position of having to pay property taxes, that other provinces, they're all exempt? Would that be an accurate statement? Ms.

McGifford: Well, I do want to point out that under the former Conservative government the whole university paid property tax. When we came into power, I think it was '02, we, in fact, moved universities and colleges, phased out their requirement to pay municipal property tax. My understanding is the phase-out didn't apply to residence and it doesn't apply to businesses within an institution; that businesses have to pay tax, or pardon me, that part of a building is assessed for tax.

As for what other provinces do, I don't have that information, but I do want to add that the colleges are–it was the universities that were exempt from taxation. Since the colleges have a different relationship with government and a more intimate relationship with government, colleges continue to pay taxes. Now, I've had several conversations about the whole question of taxation on student residence and it's a very interesting–I don't know whether the member's going to suggest the removal of property tax on residence.

I know that there is a sense among certain officials at some of our institutions that that would be a good idea, but the question has to be explored and has yet to be explored. Mrs. Driedger: I understand that the University of Manitoba faces an $18-million shortfall for '07-08. I'd like to ask the minister: With that kind of a shortfall, in their view, how are they supposed to provide good quality education and compete with other universities for professors and students and good quality programs? Ms.

McGifford: Well, I'm a little uncertain as to what the member means by a shortfall because the University of Manitoba has a balanced budget. Mrs. Driedger: According to the university, according to the request that they've put in, they have been underfunded in terms of the amount of dollars they actually need in order to meet their requirements, and because of that, they're in a

October 3, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 743 position where they are having to look at a number of things. Certainly, we've seen from Brandon University, they are talking about actually having to cut programs. When we look at all of the universities–and I don't believe they've been putting forward frivolous budgets. I think, at this point, after they've been underfunded fo r eight years, that those budgets are probably pretty on in terms of what their requirements are.

So, when they are not getting the amount of operating dollars they need, they are being squeezed in terms of the kind of decisions they are going to have to make. So, I'm just, I guess, wondering, in the minister's view, when she's not providing them with the dollars they need, what is her expectation in terms of how are they supposed to move forward and provide quality education when they don't have the funding to do that. Ms.

McGifford: Well, you know, I might begin by just pointing out that the University of Manitoba has more Rhodes Scholars than any other university in western Canada, which I think suggests that there is quality education. I might point out that the University of Manitoba has world-class researchers– for example, Jamie Blanchard who is doing HIV-AIDS research and is renowned internationally. I might point to Dave Barber, who is heading up a wonderful group called ArcticNet. In fact, we had a short discussion about ArcticNet and the work that they're doing yesterday.

I might point, for example, to Noralou Roos, who is known internationally for her research on poverty. So we have this wonderful team of Rhodes Scholars. We've done very well in research funding at the University of Manitoba. We have these internationally known researchers. We have a president with an international reputation. Our Engineering school has got the accreditation. So I'm not quite sure–I'm also not sure whether the member is referring to '07-08 or '08-09.

But I do want to take this opportunity to highlight some of the work in the '90s because I think this member is into a mode of behaviour which is, do what I say and not what we do when we're in power. I think I'll just put on the record, Madam Chair, let's take 1993-94. I don't know quite what the request was from the University of Manitoba, or from universities–but I know that they received minus 2. I don't know what the request in '94-95 was, but I know that they received minus 4. I don't know what the request in 1995-96 was, but they received, and listen to this, they received a grand total of 0.1 percent.

I don't know what the request in '96-97 was, but what was the increase? Well, minus 2.5–in other words, it was a decrease. In '97-98, there was a request for 5.1 percent increase, but what did they get? Minus 2 percent. So, in fact, during the '90s, there were one, two, three, four years when rather than getting any increases, the University of Manitoba was decreased 2 percent, 4 percent, 2.5 percent, 2 percent and then one year they had a grand total increase of 0.1 percent. So this member really shouldn't be hectoring me on grants to universities and colleges. * (15:10) Mrs.

Driedger: I find the minister's comments interesting and, I guess, a little disappointing. After yesterday, I thought that maybe she was–and I really appreciated her comments yesterday compared to some other ministers that I've had to ask questions of over the last number of years. I thought she was more forthcoming with her responses. In fact, I was going to give her credit at the end of today for her behaviour in Estimates compared to some of the other ministers I've had to deal with. I'm afraid now that that's taken a bit of a downward dive.

The minister is also on Treasury Board, and so she would know, having been on Treasury Board, what economies are all about and what financial disasters are all about. She knows full well in the early '90s there was a recession, one of the worst recessions that we've ever had and that accounted for a lot of the problems.

Then she also knows that almost a billion dollars was withheld by the federal Liberals from this province, and across the country, on a unilateral decision through a large part of the late '90s which did create a lot of financial problems and an inability to meet everybody's needs; not like today, where this government is flowing in dough, unlike what we saw in the '90s. This government has got more money coming at it than the government in the '90s could ever have dreamed of. So I think she should, being on Treasury Board, have a better understanding about some of this– Madam Chairperson: Order, please.

I just want to take a moment to remind all honourable members on both sides of the table to please address their questions through the Chair.

744 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 3, 2007 Mrs. Driedger: I would like to also indicate to the minister that my comments are not being generated out of anything other than conversations or audits that I am looking at from these institutions. I will give an example from the audited report of the University of Manitoba 2006. I'm the messenger here. I am the one that is asking the questions based on what is being told to me by these institutions. So it's interesting that the minister wants to take a swipe at me when, in fact, I thought I was fairly representing the comments that I'm hearing out there.

I thought I was coming in here asking the appropriate questions of this government. I'd like to read a few excerpts from the audited report then of the University of Manitoba from 2006, and I quote, under the leadership of Dr. Emöke Szathmáry, the University of Manitoba has strived to realize its vision of excellence and innovation in teaching, research and community service. Although faculties, schools, the libraries and administrative units have risen to their budgetary challenges in the past, excellence can only be achieved if resources are made available– Madam Chairperson: Order, please.

I just wanted to clarify: Is that document a public document? Mrs. Driedger: Yes, it is, and the minister would have it. Madam Chairperson: Thank you. Please continue. Mrs. Driedger: Excellence can only be achieved if resources are made available to fund new strategic initiatives. Maintaining the status quo will only produce mediocre results over the long term. In the next paragraph it says: While the University of Manitoba has made considerable progress, many exciting initiatives remain unfunded. This puts the University of Manitoba at a disadvantage as compared to other universities across the country.

Next paragraph: To meet the challenges of increased costs of operating, these challenges are being met through the issuance of debt to support new building construction. Based on that, I would like to ask the minister how much money the University of Manitoba has had to borrow. I understand from our discussion of, probably yesterday, it's in the vicinity of $150 million, in order to meet some of the requirements that it has. Would that be accurate? Ms.

McGifford: Yesterday, I mentioned that the University of Manitoba had borrowed $150 million, but the university had borrowed this against the $237 million that they raised in their fundraising campaign. The reason they borrowed money is because not all that money, the $237 million, came in right away. It's staggered over a number of years, but the university wished to do some of the projects that that money was funding right away, as soon as they could, so they came to government and negotiated with government, and government took a loan for the university in order to guarantee a low interest rate.

The university is using that money for a number of projects which include an Aboriginal student centre. I can give the member the figures if she wants. That's $2.6 million.

Engineering and information technology complex, 19.25; Richardson Centre for Functional Foods and Nutraceuticals, $2.7 million; Apotex Centre, $17 million; the Elizabeth Dafoe storage annex, $2.76 million; underground service system, $2.75 million; environmental safety building, $4 million; technology projects, $20.7 million; infrastructure health and safety–and I know the member will be interested in this because she expressed concern about health and safety yesterday–$52.5 million; the William Norrie Centre, which is open, up and running on Selkirk for access programs, $2.2 million; welcome centre, $3.5 million; International House, $2.1 million.

Then the university also had some revenue projects that will be used to help pay back. These include the Bannatyne campus parkade; the Smartpark at 135 Innovation Drive; the Smartpark, One Research Road; and Smartpark, 2078 Innovation Drive. So the university has created these revenue- producing projects, and they will also help to pay back the $150 million plus portions of the $237 million which the university raised in its fundraising campaign. Mrs. Driedger: Has the university had to borrow more than the $150 million or is that the total amount of their borrowing?

I understand that borrowing is borrowing of dollars from the provincial government. Ms. McGifford: No, the university hasn't as far as– well, in fact, I think I know quite well because the university can only borrow– [interjection] As far as I

October 3, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 745 know, no, there was no other borrowing, and since it's done, any borrowing of that nature is done through an Order-in-Council. I think that's a pretty safe answer. Mrs. Driedger: Then I would ask, are the debt-servicing costs then paid to the government? Ms. McGifford: The interest is paid to the government because the government has to pay the interest. Mrs.

Driedger: Do all of the post-secondary education institutions have a rainy day fund, and how many of them have been forced to dip into that rainy day fund because of the underfunding for the past eight years? * (15:20) Ms. McGifford: I just want to review for the member what she calls underfunding, and I think it contrasts quite handsomely with the funds that I mentioned for the '90s. In 2000-2001, a 3.4 increase; in '01-02, a 3.6; '02-03, 2.8; '03-04, 3.8; '04-05, 2.7; '05-06, 3.3; '06-07, 6.8; and '07-08, 7.2.

So I just wanted to respond to the remarks about underfunding and point out, again, the stark contrast to the real underfunding of the '90s. At the same time, I do want to make the point for the member that she talks about the cuts in 1994-95. Those cuts have not been restored. The departments of education will, for the first time this year, the federal government is flowing $800 million to be distributed across the country, but we haven't seen any of that money yet. It'll come in the '08-09 budget. So, just to bring that to the member's attention.

Despite experiencing the same kinds of federal cuts that the former Filmon government experienced, this government has responded, as I said, with some very handsome increases to post-secondary education. Now, the question that we were dealing with was: do all institutions have a rainy day fund? My information is no, they don't have slush funds or rainy day funds, but some of them, for their ongoing operations from time to time, may have a line of credit. Mrs.

Driedger: Just in reference to the comments made by the minister, while she has indicated that a certain amount of operating funds have flowed to the institutions, according to the institutions it's far less than what they need in order to provide a quality education in post-secondary education. Also, while the minister likes to make reference to the federal money flowing to the province, the minister is also fully aware that there is much more reliance on federal tran sfers and more money flowing to this province through federal transfers than certainly what flowed in the '90s.

So, this government does have a lot more money to work with and put it into priority areas than what was available in the 1990s. According to the University of Winnipeg again, in their public document, the University of Winnipeg audited statements from '06, it shows that they ended '06 in a deficit position of almost half a million dollars.

I would like to put on the record, read one of the paragraphs: The financial results reflect the effect of a continuing decline in student enrolment growth, insufficient growth in the level of provincial grant funding to maintain a sustainable level of operations, and continuing pressures in operating expenditures, including staffing and facilities. This is the first operating deficit incurred by the university during the past five years and essentially reflects the previously reported gap in the growth of revenues and expenditures that exists within the university's financial structure. End of paragraph.

So the comments I have been bringing forward to the minister are certainly concerns that I have been pulling out of annual reports, or audited statements, or some discussions with people at the various post-secondary institutions. They're not an invention in my mind. I think there's a cry for help out there from these facilities and that cry for help is more than just happening right now. It's been happening for a number of years.

I th ink what's happening right now though, it's reached su ch a point that I think there is a level of desperat ion in these institutions and they are basically hitting a wall and asking the minister to please do something. If this government is going to continue with a tuition freeze, I think what all of them would like to see is a full backfill of what that tuition freeze is doing to all of the universities. I don't know if the minister wants to comment on any of that, but I was going to go on to some questions about Red River College. Ms.

McGifford: If there is any cry, it certainly started as a shrill scream in the '90s when the universities and colleges were desperately slashed by the former government, just thrown to the winds, and tuition just went up enormously for its students.

746 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 3, 2007 But I do wonder about the member's comments about the tuition freeze because my understanding during the past election was that her leader, the Member for Fort Whyte (M r. McFadyen), had now decided that he supported the tuition freeze. Not only did he support the tuition freeze, but I believe that he proposed tax cuts of something like $800 million dollars, and those $800 million are far more than the whole post-secondary education budget. So I can't imagine how the member opposite and her leader would have managed this portfolio. It just boggles the mind.

Mrs. Driedger: We saw in Saskatchewan when they brought in their tuition freeze, what they did was they fully backfilled that so that the post-secondary institutions weren't deprived of that money. So, if one is going to have a tuition freeze, then, at least, the government should have gone that next step and backfilled and provided appropriate operating grants that would take into account the money that the universities were losing because of that, and that's not what this government did. Prior to getting into Red River College, I just have a couple of questions to the minister.

Is there any travel by the Premier (Mr. Doer) or a delegation led by the Premier that was paid for by her department? Ms. McGifford: I don't know whether the Saskatchewan government fully backfilled for a tuition freeze in the province of Saskatchewan, but I do know what the Filmon government did was lower operating grants and get students to backfill. At the same time as they let tuition skyrocket and therefore got students to backfill, they also cancelled the Manitoba Bursary in the dead of the night in 1993-94. So they took away the students' accessibility to monies that would make their lives a little easier.

Students left the province in droves. Enrolment went down incredibly. Again, I don't think this member has much to tell me about post-secondary education. As regards the question about the Premier, I will have to get back to the member on that. Mrs. Driedger: While the minister is looking to see if there was any travel by the Premier or a delegation led by the Premier that was paid for by her department, if she could also provide the pertinent details of that travel as to location, purpose, dates, cost and who all went.

In regard to ministerial travel, could the minister indicate how many out-of-province trips she has taken in the past year and details of those trips, such as the purpose. Ms. McGifford: I was in Denmark in January. It was paid for by the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade. I was representing Canada because there is no federal Education minister, so a provincial minister is selected, and the topic was migrant labour. As I said, it was paid for by the federal government. I was recently in Victoria for a meeting of the Council of Ministers of Education, Canada. Mrs.

Driedger: I'd like to thank the minister for that information. I understand that Red River College has problematic waiting lists. I'd like to ask the minister if there has been any expansion of seats at Red River College. * (15:30) Ms. McGifford: We are doing some calculating, Myrna. I don't mean calculating in a bad sense. I mean adding up numbers. Madam Chairperson: That was the honourable Minister of Advanced Education and Literacy to the Member for Charleswood (Mrs. Driedger). Ms.

McGifford: My information is since '99-2000 the increase in numbers of seats at Red River is approximately 1,500, but that's not an absolutely firm number. It may be either way a little bit, but that's the figure I can give the member today and I think it's pretty accurate. Mrs. Driedger: Based on the waiting lists that they currently have, is there any further discussion about expanding even further in the future in terms of more seats? I understand from the media there have been comments that they made, like another building.

I saw that there was a heritage building in downtown that they've been looking at, and I understand that there might have been a request or some looking, I guess, at a campus in south Winnipeg in order to address some of their waiting lists and the need for more space in some of the high demand areas? Ms. McGifford: I think the member might recall that one of the election commitments the Premier (Mr. Doer) made was a commitment to 4,000 new

October 3, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 747 apprentices–and I know the member knows the need for skilled labour–and 2,500 of these were notionally to be with Red River. I understand that much of the information that the member might have been reading is speculative at this time, that Red River is very interested in maximizing the space that it already has. That's the situation with Red River right now. Mrs. Driedger: Does Manitoba have a co-ordinated skills strategy? Ms.

McGifford: Some of these questions the member may wish to refer to Competitiveness, Training and Trade, as well, but I can tell the member that there is the Manitoba action strategy for economic growth. There is the innovation strategy, and then the Premier's Economic Advisory Council, sometimes known as PEAC, also has an interest in these kinds of strategies. Mrs. Driedger: I know that this has been an issue raised I think by Professor McCallum, and it is one that's sort of been on my mind even in health care.

So I'd like to ask the minister, do the provincial government or post-secondary institutions track graduates to see if they get jobs here, if they have to leave Manitoba to find work, if the jobs they get reflect their educational choices, or if they meet the province's labour market needs? Ms. McGifford: Thank you for that question. The member is probably aware that the colleges do quite intense surveys on their graduates and Red River, for example, has had some spectacular results there.

It's their report that I've read most recently so I make reference to that, and we know how important they are to our economy by reading these kinds of documents. I'm told that some of the faculties in our universities do surveys and have information, but one of the real difficulties is it's very hard to track students once they cross bo rders, but our department and the Council on Post-Secondary Education in 2007 plan a graduate survey. Mrs. Driedger: Back to the AGM at the University of Manitoba.

In looking at research funds that they acquire by source, they indicated that they get 10.5 percent of research funds from the province, 50.1 percent from the federal government. and 39.4 percent from others. It appears that the Manitoba provincial contribution has not changed since 1999, so that would be about 10 percent. Is that an accurate

interpretation? Ms. McGifford: Research monies are flowed through STEM, so I think the member should refer her questions to the Estimates in that department. Mrs. Driedger: The University of Winnipeg recently had the death threat that was spray-painted on the men's washroom, and I was involved in a briefing about what had happened in that incident.

I would just like to ask the minister how are post- secondary institutions going about–I don't need a lot of detail, but just some assurances, I guess, that post- secondary institutions have some very definite management plans in place to manage those kinds of threats, and I would also like to know if the minister is confident that adequate plans are in place in all of those institutions. Ms. McGifford: I know this is a matter of concern in all post-secondary institutions.

I'd like to take the opportunity on the record here today, and I'm sure the member opposite would like to do the same, to congratulate University of Winnipeg President Axworthy and his very, very capable staff for handling that situation so well, so just to put that on the record. * (15:40) I'm told that after Virginia Tech–I'm sure the member remembers that–COPSE asked all our institutions to review their plans, and since Virginia Tech, they have been actively planning. Since the latest incident at University of Winnipeg, we've asked them all to revisit their plans.

We believe that they will soon be coming to COPSE with their plans and for discussions. So no one can ever guar antee that nothing will ever happen, but I think our institutions are very aware of the need to provid e safety to their staff, faculty, students, and they're doing work on it. Mr. Gregory Dewar, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair Mrs. Driedger: I would like to thank the minister for her comments and, inde ed, I know that that would have been a very stressful experience, and do compliment all of those that were involved in it.

In trying to look at all of the things that could have happened in that and how it was managed, as the minister indicated, there are probably a lot of nuances to it and one hopes that they're all addressed. But I guess we pray that nothing ever does happen and that all of our students and professors and everybody else that is working at these institutions are certainly safe.

748 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 3, 2007 I move on right now to the University College of the North. I note, and I guess I just maybe should ask for clarification. Is the chancellor in place at the University College of the North? Ms. McGifford: No, I understand that the chancellor is not in place, but there will soon be a ceremony. He will be–I think, installed, is the correct word? In the next few weeks he will be installed. I think that's the right word. Mrs.

Driedger: Can the minister indicate why it's taken so long to fill that, considering it is a requirement of legislation and everything is sort of up and running and they've never had a chancellor, which seems very strange? Can the minister indicate why that person hasn't been in place? Ms. McGifford: The naming of chancellors at universities is the responsibility of the institution. I can't tell the member why the chancellor is not in place yet at University College of the North.

I would guess it's possibly to do with the fact that when the University College of the North first started–and we have to remember it's a relatively new institution– there was, I'm trying to remember, an interim council, and the interim council, along with the president and other academic officials, was responsible for the institution. Then in 2006, the interim council was replaced by the learning council and the governing council. Perhaps it's taken a bit of time with the change in presidency. There's a new president began last year. So I would assume it's just a matter of timing.

I'm sure the member knows who the new chancellor's going to be, and we're very delighted that it's going to happen. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister indicate whether or not the university has been accredited? Ms. McGifford: The university has not yet been accredited by the AUCC. The reason is that you can only be accredited when you reach a certain number. The University College is working on growing its numbers and will begin the process of accreditation once the numbers have expanded. Mrs. Driedger: I understand that the Aboriginal midwifery program was started there.

I believe their first year began September '06. I certainly am supportive of that initiative. Could the minister indicate whether or not there's any provincial funding in that, or was that money that came–I understand from doing some reading that it was funded by federal dollars. Ms. McGifford: Staff are looking for more solid information, but I could just go from my memory at this point. I do remember that there was some federal money. Funding for the program was made possible through an allocation provided to UCN and contributions from Manitoba Health and the COPSE's strategic program envelope.

So, yes, the Province is part and parcel of funding that program. Mrs. Driedger: Can the minister tell us why the midwifery program that had been developed in the late '90s–and I'm told by midwives in the community that they had developed it. It was fully ready to go and that this government decided not to fund it. Can the minister indicate why her government decided not fund that program at the University of Manitoba? Ms. McGifford: I can't answer that question. I think that the member should ask that question in the Estimates of Health. Mrs.

Driedger: My information is that COPSE was the one that refused to fund it, and considering that the minister would have been in consultation with COPSE, then that would fall into her purview. So I would ask her, then, why COPSE did not agree to fund it. Ms. McGifford: Well, current staff are not aware of this decision making. We'll have to get back to the member on the matter. Mrs. Driedger: Could the minister indicate if all faculty positions at UCN are filled and if they've hired a V.P. of academic and research? Ms.

McGifford: Yes, I understand that the University College of the North has recently hired a new vice-president academic. That's Kathryn McNaughton. I understand that all the positions are not yet filled, but they're actively recruiting those positions. Mrs. Driedger: I'm going to switch gears here to adult learning centres.

I ran into someone the other day from an adult learning centre in a smaller town who said that the post-secondary institutions in Manitoba don't like to co-operate with adult learning centres in Manitoba, so th at these adult learning centres are being forced to buy programs and support from out-of-province like SAIT and NAIT in Alberta, although I do think the University of

October 3, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 749 Winnipeg might be maybe an exception to some degree in that. Would the comments from this person be accurate in the minister's view? Ms. McGifford: I have never heard this before. Indeed, I would be wondering why adult learning centres would be buying programs from SAIT and NAIT because they're post- secondary institutions. But if the member would like to encourage that individual to contact my office, for example, to contact my special assistant, Jeremy Read, I would be very interested in pursuing the matter. Mrs.

Driedger: I'd like to thank the minister for that. As I will be having meetings coming up with some of those groups, I'll certainly indicate that they should do that. This person also sa id that support for market-driven training programs is not adequate in Manitoba. What kind of comments would the minister like to make to that? Certainly, because we have an acute skills shortage, if these comments are accurate, then, indeed, we might have a problem here. * (15:50) Ms. McGifford: My information is that the Province does not support market-driven programs.

By their very nature, they're driv en by the market and supported by the market. However, the department and obviously government indirectly supports market-driven programs because these programs often make use of our public institutions. Mrs. Driedger: Could the minister indicate how many adult learning centres there are in Manitoba and if they all have to be registered with the government? Ms. McGifford: Pardon me, I wonder if the member would repeat her question. Mrs.

Driedger: Can the minister indicate how many adult learning centres ther e are in Manitoba, and if they all have to be registered with the government? Ms. McGifford: Yes, there are 45 adult learning centres, and they are all registered with government. Mrs. Driedger: Do they have to meet requirements laid out by government before they can be registered? Ms. McGifford: Yes, that's true. There is an Adult Learning Centre Act, and the requirements are laid out in the legislation. Mrs.

Driedger: Can the minister tell us how they are evaluated to ensure that they are on track for what they are supposed to be doi ng and so that there is solid accountability in place with all of them? Ms. McGifford: Through monitoring and evaluation by the adult learning and literacy staff who make on-site visits, I think twice a year. Twice a year. Mrs. Driedger: I'm sure the minister is fully aware of the CARD program and the Neeginan program at the Aboriginal Centre. I know that they have been looking for recognition by the government as a post-secondary institution.

Can the minister indicate what kind of discussions are in place around that and whether or not that is something that she is giving any consideration to? Ms. McGifford: There have been some ongoing meetings between CARD and, I believe, federal government persons as well as members from my department and indeed other community members in addition to CARD. As a result of consultations, there was report released earlier called the bear spirit report. The bear spirit report dealt with questions of post-secondary education, particularly Aboriginal post-secondary education, and post-seco ndary education outcomes.

As a result of the report, meetings continue. CARD people are meeting with folks from COPSE. Mrs. Driedger: I'm going to switch gears again into the area of literacy, and I know the minister introduced today The Adult Literacy Act. I wonder if she could just detail for us the types of discussions or consultations that she has carried out in putting that act together. Ms. McGifford: Yes, there have been stakeholder consultations and also cross-department consulta- tions because other departments have very valuable contributions to make.

These consultations will continue and will broaden because that, of course, is part of the legislation. In order to arrive at the strategy, we have made a commitment to consult widely with our provincial people. Mrs. Driedger: I am told by people from within the literacy community that there have been no stakeholder consultations to date, which contradicts what the minister just said. So could she indicate then how many stakeholder–and I would assume by

750 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 3, 2007 this we're talking literacy groups in the community– how many stakeholder meetings she's actually had? Ms. McGifford: We don't have the number here, but we will get back to the member with the number. Mrs. Driedger: Thank you. One other question: Are there any discussions ongoing about how to improve transition from high school to post-secondary education? Ms. McGifford: I'm told that all the post-secondary education institutions have programs, the purpose of which is to facilitate the transition.

I know the Adult Learning Centres do work on this issue, and we're pretty sure that ECY has programs, but I can't really speak to that. Mrs. Driedger: No further questions. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Gregory Dewar): Thank you. Resolution 44.2: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $448,623,900 for Advanced Education and Literacy, Support for Universities and Colleges, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2008. Resolution agreed to.

Resolution 44.3: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $59,248,700 for Advanced Education and Literacy, Manitoba Student Aid, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2008. Resolution agreed to. Resolution 44.4: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $18,227,000 for Advanced Education and Literacy, Adult Learning and Literacy, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2008. Resolution agreed to.

Resolution 44.5: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $11,720,600 for Advanced Education and Literacy, Capital Grants, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2008. Resolution agreed to. Resolution 44.6: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $285,800 for Advanced Education and Literacy, Costs Related to Capital Assets, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2008. Resolution agreed to. The last item to be considered for the Estimates of this department is item 44.1(a), the Minister's Salary, contained in resolution 44.1.

At this point, we request the minister's staff leave the table for the consideration of this last item. * (16:00) The floor is open for questions. Mrs. Driedger: Just one final question, and it's in the Estimates book on page 9 where it does show a change in capital grants from $14 million down to $11 million, a 17.5 percent decrease. So it certainly emphasizes, I think, some of the discussions we've been having about capital dollars and maintenance dollars. I think seeing a 17.5 percent decrease in that certainly speaks to some of the challenges that the universities are having. Ms.

McGifford: The reason for that decrease is because there was a particular commitment, and that commitment had been completed in '06-07. So that's why there was a decrease. It isn't that there was–it was because a commitment had been completed. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Gregory Dewar): Resolution 44.1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1,617,700 for Advanced Education and Literacy, Administration and Finance, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2008. Resolution agreed to. This completes the Estimates of the Department of Advanced Education and Literacy.

The next set of Estimates to be considered by this

section of the Committee of Supply is the Department of Health. Shall we briefly recess to allow the minister and critics the opportunity to prepare for the commence- ment of the next department? [Agreed] The committee recessed at 4:02 p.m. ____________ The committee resumed at 4:06 p.m.

October 3, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 751 HEALTH The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Daryl Reid): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will now consider the Estimates of the Department of Health. Does the honourable Minister of Health have an opening statement? Hon. Theresa Oswald (Minister of Health): Mr. Acting Chair, as per discussion with my critic, we have agreed that we will both make some opening remarks today. So I will begin. Mr. Acting Chair, certainly it is an honour to be sitting in this chair today as Manitoba's Minister of Health. I think anyone that has that sort of responsibility bestowed upon them would certainly feel that honour and feel the weight of that responsibility as well.

I am very committed to working with our government, with the citizens of Manitoba to do all that we can to ensure that people are getting the care that they need when they need it. I know that consistently health care has been the No. 1 priority of our government, and we know that it is the No. 1 priority on the minds of Manitobans. We all have, at one time or another, experiences with our health-care system, and we all have our stories to tell. We have our challenges to cite and our successes to celebrate.

We know that people care deeply about what kind of care their parents get, their children get, their brothers and sisters get, their neighbours get, and that's why we're working every day to ensure that we can work with the people in the health-care community to make that care second to none. We have, of course, r ecently come through an election campaign where our government has made very clear the commitments and the direction that we have on the subject of health care. It isn't on its face complicated, Mr. Acting Chair, but it is clear.

Our commitments have been over time and will continue to be to increas e the number of health-care professionals that exist in our system to be able to provide that care. We have made specific commitments about increasing the number of doctors in our system. We've made specific commitments about increasing the number of nurses that will exist in our system.

We've talked about how we will achieve that, and that is undoubtedly going to be part of our more fulsome discussion as we go forward, but those issues, of course, consist of remuneration, they consist of looking at the quality of life that our health-care professionals must lead. It considers issues of innovation within the system that draw professionals to come to Manitoba and retain the very fine people that we have. Of course, it addresses continued investment, not only of a capital nature infrastructure, but of technology, of IT, and so forth.

Our commitments were clear on increasing additional health-care staff, whether it's health-care aides or technologists or primary care, other kinds of professionals that exist in our system to help Manitobans be as healthy as they can be. * (16:10) We've been clear on our continued commitment to reduce wait times, and we've been very clear on our commitment to continue to bring care closer to Manitobans so that they can live and work through sometimes very difficult times with family members who are ill in their communities with their families.

We've also been clear about our overarching commitment to ensure that care is provided to people based on their medical need, Mr. Acting Chair, and not on the size of their wallet. We know that there are many ways that one can enter that debate which, indeed, has been a lively one in recent weeks across the country and across the world, really.

But we know that one of the ways that we can engage in that debate is by participating in making a health-care system better, and stronger, so that people don't have to entertain the idea of going into other systems because they're concerned about how long they have to wait. We have had very good success in some areas, and we have more work to do in others, and we've never shied away from that. I would also say that it's a privilege to sit in this chair but, indeed, it is challenging, and I have never said otherwise.

Dealing with challenging issues like reducing disparities that exist in our population when it comes to health status, whether we're talking about disparities among Aboriginal people, among our immigrant populations, those living in poverty, single women, we know that there are people, as groups, in our society that are less healthy than others, and we need to work diligently to ensure that we reduce that disparity. And we know that we can't do this alone, Mr. Acting Chair. We cannot, as a Department of Health, address some of these broad issues. We know it has to be a shared vision and a shared responsibility.

And when we talk about determinants of health, education, poverty, housing, it has to be a

752 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 3, 2007 collaborative approach if we're going to ever make a meaningful and profound difference in the lives of Manitobans who exist with these great disparities in their health status. And we know that we can't do it alone on a provincial level. We have to work with our municipal counterparts, and we must work in partnership with the federal government as we go forward on these very important issues. Lastly, and without it being least, our government's commitment to prevention and promotion of health and healthy living has been very clear.

While, certainly, the Minister of Healthy Living (Ms. Irvin-Ross) is going to be talking about that in her Estimates, it must be said that that particular piece of a very complex puzzle is arguably the most important one. How can we make society look at the issue of health, not from a sickness-care perspective, but from the promotion-of-health perspective? It's a very big job, and it's something that we have to do together. So, in closing, Mr. Acting Chair, I would say that it is indeed an honour to have this responsibility.

It is an incredible one, and, as somebody that has had very direct experiences rece ntly with our health-care system, you know, over the last two years, as somebody having a child in Manitoba, you have an up close and personal look at the health-care system, and the gratitude that you feel towards those nurses and those doctors in those very intense moments cannot be put into words. I know the member opposite may likely share similar feelings about how grateful you are to those people that help you through arguably the most important moment of your life.

I would also say that, recently, I had to go through the loss of a parent. Arguably, there's no more difficult time in one's life to lose one's mother, and to have the doctors and the nurses at your side with incredible medical expertise and absolute intuition about what your needs are in those most difficult moments. Well, it's an honour to be part of that system and to work to make it better. Thank you, Mr. Acting Chair. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Daryl Reid): We thank the honourable minister for the opening comments. Does the critic for the official opposition have an opening statement? Mr.

Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): I do have an opening statement. I thank the minister for hers. I pass on my condolences. I didn't realize that the member had recently lost her mother. Unfortunately, we share that similar experience as well of losing a parent, although mine was much longer ago, but I do extend my condolences to the member and also to her family. I am new, obviously, as the critic to this particular department, excited and sometimes a little overwhelmed by the challenge. I know the minister and I have had a discussion about this, in the relative sense.

I believe the minister would still probably classify herself as relatively new to the department. She indicates that this is, in fact, her first Estimates. I don't think this is something she would begrudge me sharing, but when we had the discussion she indicated that we were sort of in a similar boat because this is my first Estimates in this particular department and it is her first Estimates. I'm not sure that we're exactly on an equal footing.

If she were to share her entire department with me, then perhaps I'd feel that we're actually on a level playing field, but the way the system works, that, obviously, is not going to happen. But I do want to echo some of the comments that the minister indicated in terms of those who are working within the health-care system. I, recently in a similar sort of vein, although not being the primary person, have been involved to the birth of our son about a year ago. I did have an experience in childbirth.

Certainly, our experience was positive from the sense that those who were involved, the doctors and the nurses over the course of 32 hours–I think we saw almost every doctor and every nurse in Manitoba at that juncture. But it was certainly a challenging experience that was made easier–I wouldn't want to use the word "easy," but it was made easier as a result of the good people who were there. Of course, I think my wife would echo that and have a much more direct comment towards that.

I do want to indicate, fi rst off, that certainly members of our party appreciate the work that is done by staff within the departments of Health and Healthy Living, and we will have an opportunity at some point during these Estimates to discuss the issues related to Healthy Living. But we do want to indicate that we know that the work that goes on in the department isn't always easy work.

Certainly, we know that the nature of many of the calls that would come to the department, either directly from individuals who are not satisfied with the help that they're getting or possibly from elected officials who are referring constituency cases to the minister's

October 3, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 753 office and directly into the Department of Health, we know those aren't easy situations and that many of them, probably most of them are emergency situations where individuals are dealing with the most important thing in their lives, which is their health. So there's a very dir ect and specific need that needs to be met in a timely basis. So we appreciate the work that is done by those who are operating in the Department of Health in ensuring that the best of their abilities are getting service for individuals.

Also, of course, we refer to it sometimes as the front lines of health care, those who are working in our hospitals and in different forms of the health-care system, whether it's the doctors or nurses or paramedics or others, who are offering care on a daily basis. We know that they do the best with the resources that they're provi ded. We know that they are doing the best in the environment that has been established for them. Certainly, we appreciate those men and women who are out there even as we sit here in this committee and talk about the health-care system in Manitoba.

They're out there delivering that first-line care and sometimes in difficult situations. I don't think the minister would deny that there are those challenges in the health-care system, in our hospitals, in our ERs and that the doctors and nurses are the ones who bear the br unt of that and are really within their abilities doing the best they can for those who come in the doors.

I think it would be fair to say that, although the minister, I think, doesn't try to paint a perfect picture of the health-care system, I would probably go a little further than she did to say that there's a disconnect between what it is that people expect from the health-care system and what it is that they often find when they go in to the health-care system, either because they're going to see a doctor or they're going to an emergency room or they're waiting for some sort of a diagnostic test.

I think that most Manitobans would feel th at they aren't exactly getting what they're paying for. * (16:20) It's important to remember sometimes, and I think we forget this as Canadians, that what we have is an insurance system that people throughout their lives are paying into through their taxes, through the taxes that we bear here in the province and more generally throughout Canada, are paying into an insurance-based system. And it would be no different than if an individual was paying insurance through Great-West Life, for example, and then there came

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	39-1-14
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	39th 1st hansardpdf 14.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
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Identifier	02a0dd5341385c803dcd15d3d383b96905647168

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