VOL. 3 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE O< ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 2:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. THURSDAY, JUNE 1, 1978 NO. 75

June 1, 1978 The House met at 2:00P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape 3794 MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! ORAL QUESTIONS: The hon. member for LaPoile. IB-1 MR. SPEAKER: !-!R. NEARY: The Minister of Municipal Affairs, Sir, seems to be in a real traffic jam over the Avalon Regional Board. The minister let go broadsides at the city council this morning. Would the minister tell the House if he has explored the options that are open to him rather than force this thing down the throats now of the people who live in the communities outside of St. John's?

Has the minister looked at the alternatives and i£ so would the minister tell the House what these alternatives are? J:iR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, with respect to the regional government bill, it has been discussed with every municipality in the region. All the concerned citi~ens groups that wanted to meet, all the members for the region that requested meetings, as a matter of fact all the members from the region on this side met twice a month every month since last June and discussed the regional government bill.

We think we have a great piece of legislation here and any concerned citizens groups, any municipality that wants to meet with me would but have to call my office and the door is always open to them. MR. SPEAKER: Before the han. gentleman asks a supplementary I would like to welcome to the galleries on behalf of han. members forty Grade VII students from the L.R. Ash Elementary School in Lethbridge accompanied by three of their teachers, Mr. Frank Winsor, Mr. Louis Williams and Mrs. Ann Penny. I know han. member join

June 1, 1978 Tape 3794 IB-2 aR. SPEAKER: me in welcoming these students and their teachers to the galleries. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. The bon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Hr. Speaker, the Minister of Municipal Affairs just indicated, Sir, that there seems to be unanimity within the boundaries of the area that will be affected by regional government and in actual fact, Sir, I do not know if that is true or not.

But would the minister indicate because of the growing opposition to the bill and the way the board would be established if the minister would consider instead of ramming the bill through this session circulating a White Paper to give those people who are affected by it an opportunity to air their grievances, why they object to it. Instead of the bill have a White Paper this session. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. minister. MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, a study was started in the St. John's urban region in 1972. That study was commissioned by the provincial government.

Proctor and Redfern and several other consulting firms had input to it. They had input from all the people in the area and they came up with regional services that were required within the St. John's or Northeast Avalon Urban region. Then we set up a commission knoYn as the Henley Commission and they went out and discussed with all of the councils. all of the current concerned citizens groups and got their input from those people and made recommendations which we received in January of last year.

June l, 1978 Tape 3794 IB-3 XR. DI~N: We then, Mr. Speaker, brought bill 101 into the House last year and ~e saw in the bill at that time there were some discrepancies. So we did not push the bill last year. We have had from last June all the way up until this June for the councils or anybody else to come in and discuss and make recommendations with respect to the Northeast Avalone Urban region. I met with the council four times or different councillors two times and the full council twice and they came in and made their recommendations and we acceded to their wishes in some areas.

One of the things that the council talked about was the expansion of the City of St. John's which has nothing to do at all with regional government per se. What we are talking about here is the unincorporated areas plus regional services which the regional council will address itself to. So the other objection that the city had was one with respect to appointments on the board and they said we were going back 200 years because now the government was appointing a board to look after the region. What we have now is a metroboard that is totally an appointed body.

And what we felt in the interests of progressing, in the interest of having th~ citizens have some input to elected representatives that we would have two-thirds of the board elected. This was recommended by Mr. Henley in his report. We need to get on with providing regional services to the Northeast Avalon Urban region and we have no intention at this time to go with a White Paper. We think that since 1972 up to 1978 it is time now for action and we intend to provide the appropriate legislation to form this regional council and get on with the regional services

June 1, 1978 Tape 3794 IB-4 HR. DINN: that are so badly needed in the St. John's or the ~ortheast Avalon Urban region. HR. NEARY: I have a couple of supplementar:tes, just two quick supplementaries. MR. SPEAKER: LaPoile. HR. NEARY: A supplementary, the han. member for I will ask one first. In view of the opposition that seems to be mounting over this bill and this move by the government would the minister indicate if

Tare :<o. 37?5 "T-1 he feels that it •,;ould be r.:ore democratic to hold a referenciuo in the arens t!Jat are affected and let the people decide for theoselves t·h~ther they •-;ant to go the route that t!"le ~'inister !tas outlined in the Dill or if they •,;ant to take sor:1e other route after doing an educat"i.onal ?rozra.-n preceCin;; a referenduu; ·-:ould c;-:e ''ir.iste:- not C!Jree that a rcft::renCun tJOuld be sensil:le and :r:ore der::.ocratic, the ':est ·.·n;• tn c!edde this t"'ntter? ~!!' .~I]p~<: If \.;e vmited in order to get things done in ::e•,rfoundland hy r,oing to referendums all the ~~ne 1 Co not think ;.:e ·:Ciuld ;;et anythins done.

The fact of the r:tat t:er is, in 1976 this re;.-:on <,·;;s in il 'Je.ry bad .state '·'ith respect to, for exan?le, ;..:ater. "e had an e..:erzency situation in the St.. John's urban region nnd the rcrtheast /'vnlon urban region t-dth respect to drinking i:ater. There ~as no planning done nor vere the City capable of planning for the region. Pe had to do that doun in the Department of ?'unicipal Affairs (·tith the nssistance of the Engineer from the City, engineers from "ount Pearl and other areas, Conception Bay South. ~-:e had to provide that plnnninr, exper-tise.

He think it is time no·p that ·.;e get a bo.nd togetter, a regional council together, to provide this kind of planning. r·e do not thin!: 1 t i1'1 the responsibility of the Provincial Government to Co o.ll. •,;e thin 1- that the regional council should he fomed, ~,;e thinL th:;y should do the planning, and C·:e c!o net t\'.blc that r;e should have another emergency situation as we had in 1976 with respect to this region and ,1 shortage of water, and other items that t.<e see do•.¥:1 the road id th respect to, for exmnple, sewerage di.sposal. If we depended upon tbe City of St.

Jol~n's to provide t!::e planning for seHerage disposal for this n:ogion ve •,;auld have a disaster on our ha':'.ds right nm•. \·c have the plans done for that, we are implenenting !:lOst

June 1, 1973 :'ape ~'o. 3795 :T-2 of these plans, ·,;e tave sor::e S50,000,0G0 that has been expe~deC over the past three or four years in the region to provide these serJ"ices. and we thid: that it is tine now for a reeional council to be formed to ?rovide the planning, to plan for services sn that :Je do not have the situation we had in 1976 with respect to shortaee of vater, not enouzh sewerage disposal fncitil:i.es.

And ve intend to ?.Ct on to other things like solid 1,raste disposal ~ccause ~·e thing, for e:~nnple, that !fob in EeoC Eay in this day and arc <.;hen · .. ·e !-lave 130' 00[1 flCCfllC dumping in that oren, ·~·e think it is tine for that to change, we think it is tir:1e for somebody to be put in place to start planning these regional services, get on with the joh, and get away from the disgraces that t4e have right now in the Xortheast c\valon ur0<=.n r£>rion ~>:ith respect to .,.,atcr {'.nC. sever and nnjor services. ;:e do not think it is tir::e for a Khite Paper, ·,_'e thf.nl: the day for r.Jhite Papers is zone with respect to this - !!? • S. ::\EARY: A referendum is what I suggested. ~·R.

J. DI_FN: - and rf'ferendums is only Celaying the day, delaying the planning, and delaying the things that t.~e need in the ~:orthen~t tvnlon urbar: re£ion. I, for one, think that this regional soverm::cnt t!1ing is a fon:ard piece of ler;islatiC'n and a thing tl-:at Fe thin!~, and all of the ~'HA' s from the re~icn thbk - (inaudible) - and I have not :1acl tt'e opportunity to speaL to the !1cn. 1:1ember for St. Joh~'s •,;est (Dr. ?,itchen), he. r.ns ~ot asked me for a meetin~, and if he had asked me for a meeting he could t.ralk into my office en any day and go through fror.t

Section 1 to Sect:ion 149 discuss ::mytting ·..:1th respect to regional goverr.cent, :,ut he had no input at all nor did he want to provide input nor does it ;:;ppear that he ,,·.:mts to see the ~'ortf:east Avalon region progress. flrdcr, please:

~· suppler:;entary, ?'r. Spee\-·er. "F. SPL~KET!.: A supplementary. The han. member for La?oile. ! telieve the han. gentle:tlan for St. John's \-Jest also hns a supplenentary. "r. Spenker, obviously, Sir, nothing that ~:e s.".ly or do is soing: to persuade the hen. gentlenan to chansc his :nind.

The trn. ~entl2nnn arpc.ars to vant to ram tl:is re-:;ional govern::nent: do•m tbe ::l"roats of the pe0plc in tte area. :Cut, Sir, cppositicn is ;r:ounting and I ~·ould suspect that it is zo:i.ng to be T'1orc savage than the spruce 1.cudt.•orn eont~oversy ~-·hen it starts to get going. :-10t.' that the bill has been tabled in the ilouse and t::<'!de public does the Yinister net tt:b! nm; ratter t:~~nn rat:l it through tLe l-'ousu in the :H!i':t • .. ;eek, or ten C:::vs. or t•,·o •.;eet:s, that it t.·ould be better just to let the bill lie on the: ':able of the 1~ouse until - the Prerier has indicated that we are going to have a fall session, I do not know if he made the state~ent off the cuff or whether the hon. gentleman ~as serious or not - and wait until we come !:lack, if ue do come back, if we ever come bac!:, and then debate the l'ill nnd ::ive people a chance to think it over, think about it, educaticnal

June 1, 1978 Taoe 3796 PK - 1 Mr. tiearv: programme and lay the bi11 on the Table of the House in the meantime, would that not be the sensible thing to do? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Good~ Good: MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. HR. DINN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, it may be sensible to the hen. gentleman. But, I think, from 1972 to 1978 to let it go for another six months is prolonging the inevitable. The fact of the matter is that the people in this region are crying for services. They want the services. There is not a voice, I have not heard one voice from outside of the city say for a Mr.

Fahey who is not an elected member anywhere, and the only voice that I have heard, I have not heard one voice outside of the City of St. John's that does not want regional government. And the fact of the matter is, is that the people in St. John's should not be given the responsibility for providing services to Conception Bay Sou~h. We think that a regional government should do that. And the han. the member for Conception Bay South (Mr. Nolan) should be standing on his feet right now, Mr. Speaker, and ~ AN HON. fiEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. DINN: - supporting the regional government concept, because SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Oh. oh! MR. DINN: - Conception Bay South is one of the areas that,we think,needs services. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. DINN: And that is one of the areas that will get services, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MR. NOLAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary.? The han. the member for Conception Bay South a supplementary.

June 1, 1978 Tape 3796 PK - d Mr. W. Rowe: the power, Sir, to do a great number of other things to people living in this whole region, why does

J:Jne 1, 1978 Tape 3797 IE-1 ~m. w. aotvE: the government feel that one-third of this council or this group should be appointed by the government rather than being elected by the people who they are supposed to represent. HR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. HR. DI!lN: Mr. Speaker, that is a very good question coming from the bon. member. Obviously he was around when Metroboard was around and he was around when Metro- board was started. Why was ~etroboard put in there and totally appointed by the government of the Province? He should answer that question.

What I am saying is that two-thirds of the regional council will be elected and they will be representative of all of the people in the region. And there is another question, the question of why do we not put people from city council on the regional council.

Well I polled members of the city council before the November election last year and I can name names but I will not because it may be embarrassing, I polled representatives of council and they said if it was just metroboard and they just had responsibility for the unincorporated areas yes we would serve but what you are getting into in the unincorporated areas is providing services, the responsiblity for the regional water system, the responsibility for regional sewage disposal, possibly the responsibility for solid waste disposal and all of these things.

And we think, and this is froo the city councillors themselves at that time, we think that it would be too awesome a responsiblity that we are not full time people, that we have other business interests to perfor~. So I said, okay, how do I get around this. How do I get representation from the city.

June 1, 1978 Tape 3797 IB-2 xa. oum: The way to get representation is to allow elections under the City of St. John's Act which allows the mayor of the city of St. John's to run for the regional council and any other councillor who wants to or feels that they can serve the city as well as serve the regional council, any other councillor or the mayor to run and get elected if the people so desire to have them on the regional council.

So this was the way that I found to be the best way to provide for representation not only within the city but outside the city and we reserve the right as is recommended by the Henley Report who by the way looked into this and sought the advise of all of the councils and all of the committees in the area, sought their advise and came up with the recommendation which said, that the chairman and four of us should be appointed because there is such a great need in the Northeast Avalon Urban region for service, for provisioning of this service that we need some control, operation, maintenance and management of these major systems and also some control and planning for the unincorporated areas.

HR. W. ROWE: NR. SPEAKER: the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. A supplementary. The han. Leader of MR. W. ROWE: The hon. minister, Sir, will not answer the question. Why does he not allow all the councillors to be elected? Sir, it is not this bill so much although there are very serious items in it which I disagree savagely with. It is the minister's attitude, Mr. Speaker, stiff-necked and arrogantly over there talking about what he is going to do, Sir, and he with the power and the government with the power on his advise to nominate or place in position one-third of this council

June 1, 1978 Tape 3797 IB-3 XR. ~-1. ROHE: with these massive powers, Sir. That is the worrisome part of this whole effort going on here today and the thing that worries the city council obviously and other councils as well. Let me ask the minister this since he will not answer the question as to why all th- councillors cannot be elected in the normal democratic fashion.

Did all the councils that are going to be within the region or are within the region, did all the councils have sent out to them the proposed draft bill over the last number of monthsl What was it 1 Just the city council here or did - in other words how widely disseminated was the draft bill or the proposed bill in setting U? this regional council? HR, SPEAKER: The bon. minister. MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, there has been much said about the proposed draft. input that was provided - The proposed draft was an MR. NEARY: Bill 101. MR.

DINN: - by all the councils in the region, recommendations that they made plus all the members in the St. John's Urban region - !"tR. :iEARY: False~ False! MR. DINN: You never let me finish. }!r. Speaker, do I have to puc up with interruptions when I am speaking in the House. HR. W. ROWE: Yes if you are not telling the truth MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! The point I was going to make is that the ~atter will progress, I think, with more clarity if hon. members do not interrupt. HR. ODiN: All of the members of the St. John's Urban region that wanted to provide input -

June l, 1978 Tape 3797 IB-4 ~R. NEARY: False! HR. DINN: - vere given the opportunity to provide input. All they had to do was send it to me and - UR. NEARY: You are lying. HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please~ I must call upon the hon. gentleman to withdraw that statement.

J<J:'le 1, 1978 T::pe :;o. 3798 J~-! - 1 :-'3.. }1E.ARY: :!ay I have a •,Jord of explanation or ~hall I - SO!'!E HO~t. ~-T.-!BERS: ~To, no. SO~ P.O~. ~-!BEP.S: Hithdraw, uithdraw. ~!R. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! I ~;auld ask :ton. gentlei:len not to intervene. T~e are in a situation when at times hon. members say things in the :,.eat of debate or in a :reaction uhich under ~editation I feel quite sure they would not say. There ~ay have been incidents where that type of allegation was made and some discussion on that held thereon.

In :ny opinion it is the type of allegation uhic!1 if the quorum of the House is to be maintained ~nd the integrity of all hon. members maintained should be withdrawn without any intett.ediary explanations or statecents, that it should t-J'ithdrawn full stop. The hen. Member. ~m. KITCH~: Mr. Speaker, I withdrau that and :nay I raise nov n poi~t of privilege. ~!R. SPEAKER: ~1R. KITCHEN: I ~n.ll hear the hon. gentleman on a point of privilege. ~!r.

Speaker, at no time have I ever been approached by the hon. minister or by any of his colleagues with respect to t~is bill nor has any copy been sent to me nor has any proposed bill been sent to me and for th~t reason, Sir, I raise a point of privil~ge with respect to this question. I would like the hon. minister to withdraw these re:r:arks hy saving that all ~embers have been approached nnd passed copies. 'fP,, SPEl1.KE?.: reply, '!R. J. nnm: ! will he.:!r the hen. r::inister concerned <J:peaJ:in;; in Yes, ~r.

Speaker, with respect to that ;')<?i:::lt of privilege obviously ! did not go to every person in the re~ion. The 3-tll 101 was pre<;ented to this House of Asscnblv last ye<:tr nr:d anyon<:! •,::10 ~.ranted, w:10 was intereste:! nnd wanted co provide i~put t~ :ne ~:n.s received in ny office. There vas never a time that thP_ il(m, mecber aoproac:ted :ne that I would not see hin, there uas never a telep:1onc call t-.1n.t I C.id not get back to hie+ :tr. Speaker, that is the context i:l ;;hich 1 said tl1at han. people, :1on. ner::bcrs or anybody -.;Jho

J"' - : ~~. DI!i!:;: wanted to hnvc impu: to this bill ;.·as provided :he opportunity to i1aVC io.put. :rr. Speaker, dong \,riti1 that the !le<;.rfound1.and Federation of ~!unlcipali ties last year held four public meetings in St. John's a:ld all hon. members ilPre. on this side of the House and l belit>ve - Did the lwn. cember - He went to one meeting I believe. The hen. oc~ber :or Co~ception Bay South attended one of the meeting and by the way the hon. member for Conception Say South also provided imput verbally to ::e several times with respect to tills ?i~ce of lcr;islat:i.on. T:w han. r.:cnber for St.

Joh:1'3 :·Jest :tad tb.c opportunity and if he did not avail of it that is no fault of nine. A.'i HON. !~fBER: (Inaudible). Y~R. SPEAKE'Rt Order, please~ Cn this particular matter I draw t;:e attention of hen, ::tenbers to !!ay 343, I •.;ill read ver:y iJriefly there frol':l and I think that wi 11 sho•.: han. :=Jc:=Jbers the approach >7i1icil the Chair takes in this matter.

"In regard to the CX?lanation of personal matters the House is usually indulgent and 1.;ill permit a statement of that character to be made without "ny question being ~efore the lWuse and later on no debate should en suite it thereon but if another menber is involve<! in the ?ersonal ;:;tatement he is generally alloued to give his own view of the matter and to say whethere !le accepts it or not." t think that is the incident we are aow in. The hon. :Je:aber for St. John's \·lest has on a personal ::latter :=1ade his sub:lission.

The hon. ;entle:::lan to :r; left who to a certain extent :!.s involved :.as :::.n.de his c:onner'.t:s thereon and it is an instnnce in ~Jhich n..'1 hon. gentle:':'.on makes a personal explanation under point of privilege but it is :tot in the technical sense a point of privilege upon which the Chair is required to make any decision as to prima facie or not. ;m. orre1: ~. SPE..t>KER: ;"!r. Speaker, - ~-!r. Speaker, - Yes, I believe the han. minister t:as answering ::he question ~hen chis ~attcr came up. ~m. or:m: Yes that is rig!J.t and I ·.n1s rudely interrupted. ;.!r.

Speaker, ~.;ith respect to the ansHer t:o the question why do we need people on the board that are appointed? :;1ell,ue

June 1,1978 Tape ~c. 3799 Ali-1 M:t. DIO;,J: think it is a step forward to have t'NO thirds of the board elected from the first point of vie~, the second point of view is that one third of the board being appointed - HR. SIMMONS: (Inaudible) HR. DINN: And I am being harassed again by the han. member for Burgee-Bay D'Espoir (Mr.S~ons)v~o seems to not want to abide by the rules of the House, Mr. Speaker, and maintain silence when another han. member is speaking.

But vith respect to four people plus the chairman being appointed to this board we have to this point in time involved ourselves in planning, in provisioning of service to the region. We spent as I indicated before just. on \o-ater and se\oier with the assisc.ance of the federal government - and I do not want to minimize their assistance, with the assistance of the federal government some $50 million in water and sewer.

We think that we need to have some imput, it was recommended by Henley, the people of the Province of New~oundland and Labrador are involved, some of the funds are their funds and we think that they should have some imput and the imput that we think they should have are people on the board who will be appointed and that is one third.

We at least have one third in c.he share of the facilities that are being provided and the services that are being provided so we think we should have people on there that we can talk to and say, this is what the government is prepared to do, these are your plans, we will take tl~m in and you can advise us,and so on.So we c.hink it is perfectly reasonable. XR. NDLAN: A supplementary, Xr. Speaker. XR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary from the hen. gentleman for Conception Bay South.Ihen I will recognize the hon. member for St.John's West. }ffi. NOL\N: If I may, Hr.

Speaker, to the minister. !he bill was tabled just yesterday I believe here in the House or the day before and what 1 would like to ask the minister is, did he give a copy of the proposed bill or the bill to the city of St. John's,any municipality or anyone else including members of the House prior to the tabling in the House? Secondly was it not true or is it not true that Holyrood was also to be included in this and why was it removed and was it at the instigation of his hon. friend to his right? :-!R. SPEA.l{ER: The han. minister.

June 1,~978 Tape ::o. 37S9 · AH-2 :!r. Speaker, the answer to the first question - did I give a copy of this piece of legislation to the city of St, John's or anyone else prior to it coming ~ere to the House of Assembly and the answer to that is no. What we did give to the city of St. John's was a proposed draft which we gave to them in confidence, it was my idea, it was - HR. NOLAN: Why not a proposed draft to the member of the House of Assembly? MR. DINN: They asked for a copy of what we were proposing, Mr.

Speaker, and in our discussions in writing down some fo the recommendations, in SOQe of th_ recommendations made by ny colleagues on this side of the House we had something like 126 items in a proposed draft, a piece of legis.:ation which the city of St.

John's said "Can we have a look at it and make recommendations and make comments ourselves?" and I said, 11Look my responsibility is to the House of Assc:nbly and they are to receive legislation first but since this is only a proposed draft I will let you have it on a confidential basis because it is not the final bill. 11 and lo and behold-that was a Thursday afternoon I believe at a meeting, lo and behold Honday morning it appeared in the Daily Ne'*"S and in other areas there were comments on what we had written down with respect to what we thought were some of the ideas we had on regional government.

So, yes, we did give it to the city of St. John's, it was not the bill that we have before the House right now, it was the proposed draft which has been revised up to the time it came into the House of Assembly. We gave it to them on a confidential basis and somebody broke t~t confidence. MR. NOLA ... '{: Part tw·o. MR. DIN!i: Part ~a, Mr. Speaker, with respect to Holyrood. Holyrood right now is part of the Northeast Avalon Urban Region but •,.te feel that regional government is not only for the city of St.

Jehu's, we think that there are going to be regional governments set up in Newfoundland, one for excamp1e we think may be the Burin Peninsula. The joint town and community councils of the Burin Peninsula ;laVe sent

June 1 ,19i5 Tape :io. 3i99 All-3 :m. DWN: in many requ£sts with respect to regional government on the Burin Peninsula • We are going to have a look at that in the next year or so and hopefully if we can meet some agreement as to what they can provide on a regional service basis or what they can do with respect to regional goverr~ent we are going to sit down with them, talk to them over the next year and hopefully they will be next. We t:hink that: Holyrood for exOllllple, if we do have a regional government in that area will be one of the prime arLas with respect to

J"un~ l, 10?0 "'T-1 '~t:' J. DJN!'l: the other

section for anothe!" regional fOVerni'!ent. :'.'e think it is :r.ore a part of that region that it is, for exan::ple. part of the tiortheast Avalon or St. John's urban region. And yes, mv han. colleague from Harbour Yain-Eell Island ("r. Doody) tl:!d r.ave some input there, t:,e i1olyrcod Council had son:.e input tf:ere, and anyone else t!hO u;mts to have input on anythjng else had input •dth respect to that regional council bill. ''?. SPF ,~J:F?: nrder, please! I did state that I •.:auld reco;::;.,ize the hen. r::enCer for St. John's '-:est next.

Hen. menber. !'y question is to the >'inister of :-'unicipal Affairs and Housing and it is on a different r1atter, a very serious Matter possibly. It involves uhnt appears to be an unusual practice, perh;~ps a scnn-dn.l :i.n tre ;;ubsidi:<:ed tousins industry •,_·hich hcrcfully he can clear up. I understand that normally Hhen the Governrr.ent •4ishes to construct subsidized housing units they call for public tenders and various people bid on these units and then someone is chosen to construct them.

The ~'inister :ni~ht indicate in his reply t;,nt tbat is the normal pattern however it has been ~roup:ht to n:y attention that in one or tHo instances at least, one possibly in Conception Bay and one possibly in Central ~le1..rfoundland, that developers have constructed homes under the AHCP prograrntle which no"-' are in the nrocesfi of being purchased bv this Govern~ent or one of its agencies as suhsidized hou$ing !!:f.thout tenders hnvi:"!g: been calleC. Can tt:e \!fnister tell me if this is so and if it is so, t-:hy it is so, and is this another '-:ay of getting around the public tendering system? "P.

SPEPJ\FP: Hon. ~ 1 inister. vp .J. nr;:;:: "r. Speaker, uith respect to subsidi:<:ed hcusing units there are several ':ays that subsidized r.ousing units are built. nne is ':y public tender nnd generally, by the r,•ay, ur. Speaker, :lith respect to th:!s, is done through CYHC anC tbe L'cwfounclland and l.i!Crac!or

Pausing Corporation if that is r.Jhat the t:on. r.embcr is talkin::; aCou t, public tenders, sometines ?roposals 8ecause of specific designs, and in this respect what they do with the received proposals based on the desig!'l that they put fonrard and the designers, ~y the •--ray, generally are O'HC. tlhen they received these pr:oposals in they either accept or reject and they zo through a process, by the PAy, •dth respect to subsidized housinr; and public housing units ·1ith ryUMryer (1) proposals on areas someti~es so that they can see if the 1Dci.'l cou>Jc:i1"l ;;r;;:rove of the are.1. first so they fet ;:-rrrr"nls o:-t a::-ens :tr'!d !::..0:: "r:t that a;,f"rovcd or disapproved.

Tl:'er. dcey :et prorosals c>n units, say, for'::'' units r.ere or forty units there, thirty units ~let:e or t:·,.,nt:: units there, :mel the t:rpe of unit and 1.;hat Pill 1.11:: rer:uire:t! i:; tl.'1t udt. '!'\::tis anot!:e:r )lropcsal call. ';];en t:Ccy rle:c'!.C:c ncre thnt it ::;oes or it r1oes not so and i.t is done through ::et·:foundlanC anC Labrador Housing and C'HC and :.:c. have tc have total agree::Hmt ~y both ::e.fore it cnn go ahead. ~:ith respect to t'·70 areas r~·e have identified., ue hnve not gone to public tender we have identified areas. onF is Dishops falls, that ue need public housing units and a private developer has built private units in Bishors Falls that t.'leet the rc::!ui ret:lents of C1!C and :-:e•,;foundland and Lnbrador f:cusinr, Corporation rd.tl"' res?ect to ·.-:hat is in the unit .::nd t:hat the size is i10d t,.>h:it it cnn rrccorr:oCate nr-.d ,,:hether tl:e:rc is a Cet:':and in the aren for that 1dnd of unit. t\!: this poir.t in time C'HC and ::ewfaundland and Labrador Rousing arc looking into the possibility of purchasing sorr.e of these units and, :•r.

Speaker, if tl::ey do decide then they declde and ~,·e do not see any reason t.:hy ~..·ten t;e have thirty or :::ore units built Hhen t;e have a der=cand for thirty or mere units that \:e should go out and builC thec:~ and not buy them from a private developer that has perfectly good units there. t·:e do not have a demand for

eip:bty units, ~:e do net see 1,;hy the Governr.:ent should ,30 into !!Ompetition •..rith the pr:i.vate entrepreneur and put him out of business if he r::eets the conditions and if he t:'leets the price then C'1-1C and ;;e,.•foundland and Labrador Housing "·ill get together and if the conditions are perfect and right and the price is rirht then they cdll buy. ;:,ut until these conditions are wet then nothing •>~ill happen. '''R. S. !{EARY: PPE_YIE? YOOPES: J'"R. SPE~ !-!R. S. NEARY: t-!r. Spenker - Order. nlEase! The time nas expired. On a point of order. Point of order has been called, - speaking on a personal matter.

June 1, 1978 Tape 3801 IB-1 PREMIER HOORES: Just one thing, Sir, and I do not mean to interrupt the bon. member for LaPaile (Mr. Neary). Referring to Question Period itself - nor is this a reflection on the member for St. John's West (Dr. Kitchen) or my han. colleague, the Minister of ~unicipal Affairs and Housing - when the thirty minutes is up, Sir, I am just wondering if the Orders of the Day are called exactly on the thirty minutes or if the question and the answer is allowed to continue into thirty-five ninutes. MR. SPEAKER: On that particular matter. PREMIER MOORES: It is only for clarification. l!R.

SPEAKER: Yes. On that particular matter my practice has been that if when the thirty minute moment comes a person is at the conclusion of his question then I allow the answer. If the answer goes on too long then I cut it off. But if a person is into his question then I do not leave it dangling and that is what happens when the thirty minutes comes up during a question. So it can on occasion go to thirty-three or something like that in that sense. Also if the thirty minute time comes ~hen a person is in the middle of their answer then I allow them to finish again as long as the time does not get unreasonable.

So that is a practice I have been using. I think it probably breaks fifty- fifty in favour of either questioners or answerers. Sometimes thirty minutes expires just when a person is finished their question. It would seem then appropriate to hear the answer. And also if the thirty minutes comes when a person is sort of in the middle of their answer I have allowed them to go on. But I have never allowed this to go on too long and I certainly do not allow any supple~entaries or anything.

June 1, 1978 ':ape 3301 HR. SPEAKER: But ~hen the thirty minute point comes and if ~e are in the ~iddle of something then I have allo~ed that matter to come to a reasonably quick conclusion. That is a practice that I have adopted. HR. ~iEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to make a statement, Sir, on a personal matter. MR. SPEAKER: On a point of privilege~ HR. NEARY: Well not privilege, Sir, clarification on a personal matter. I want to indicate to the House that I am speaking for my hon. - AN HON. MEHBER: By leave1 ~!R. ~!EARY; ~o, not by leave of the House.

The Speaker just told ~s according to Beauchesne I can make a statement, any member can make a statement on a personal matter. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Well this is done usually by getting the Chair's attention on a point of privilege and the hon. member then makes the personal e~planation. I think it is that way apart from unanimous consent that a person gets a recognition so to speak. !-lR. !lEARY: Sir, if I have to do it under a point of privilege -I do not want to, Sir, but I can do it that route I suppose. MR.

SPEAKER: Or I can ask hon. members, does the hon. gentleman have consent to make a personal statement. HR. MORGAN: HR. NEARY: HR. MORGA!I: MR. NEARY: gentlemen - What is it the member wants to do? Well I guess what order makes a difference. (Inaudible) Well, Sir, I ~ill be very brief if han.

June 1, 1978 Tape 3801 !B-3 ~!R. SPEAKER: Okay. MR. NEARY: I am speaking on behalf of my - aa. SPEAKER: On what? t1R. NEARY: I am speaking on behalf of my colleague from Conception Bay South (~r. Nolan) and my colleague for Eagle River (Mr. Strachan). What I want to do by the way is to thank a minister for something that he did for us this morning. Is -that allowed? AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) ~!R. NEARY: The Minister of Transportation and Communications. HR. W. ROWE: You must thank the right minister. ~[R. NEARY: Would that be all right? AN HON. ~!EMBER: (Inaudible) :·IR. ~~.

ROHE: 'IR. nARY: (Inaudible) Well, if they are in agreement, Sir. The day before yesterday, Mr. Speaker, my colleague and myself approached the minister to ask the minister if he would allow us to go down to hangar No. 3 to have a look at the PBY, the Canso 'plane that the government bought and has now been delivered, and the minister advised us yesterday that he would agree to do that and this morning the Director of Transportation, ~r. O'Brien, a very fine gentleman, was made available to my colleague from Eagle River (Mr. Strachan) and my colleague from Conception Day South (~!r.

Nolan) and we went down to hangar No. 3, ~e examined the aircraft and then we had a meeting with the Director of Air Services in his office with the Director of Transportation there, a very interesting meeting for well over an hour - AN liON. XEXBER: MR. NEARY: hour and a half. (Inaudible) -no, it is a first - for an Some interesting questions were asked and some interesting questions will be asked in the future

June 1, 1978 Tape 3801 EC - 4 HR. ~mARY: as a result of that meeting. But what I want to do is to thank the Minister of Transportation for his co-operation in this matter and for making Mr. O'Brien available. I think this is the kind of co-operation that we should have on both sides of this House. SOME HON. ~EMBERS: XR. ~lEARY: HR. W. ROHE: information. HR. HEARY: Hear, hear! I appreciate it very much. some interesting I appreciate it very nuch, Sir. It clarified certain questions but it also brought up other matters that we will be dealing with in due course. AN RON. MEMBER: bring it over to - HR.

NEARY: So really what I stood for, Sir, was to thank the minister on behalf of my colleagues for his co-operation.

Jt:ne l, 1978 '!':lp2 :ro. 3802 ;;:.-; - l ~m. NOLA~;: Do you uant to :-c. ply to that? : !!\. ?EC:<FORD: !n response to the :1on. member's state.nent, as Actin~ House Leader for this House and on behalf of the ~nister of Transportation and CotXlunications I ·would lil:e to say that we thank the han. r.:ember for LaPoile 0-!r. Neary) for the information that he has provided the House. ! tr1ink I ~"auld be remiss in ny duties if I did not go an record, ~r.

Speaker, as saying that I hope that this in no uay, shape or form s~t3 ~ 7recedent so that in any other dny nny han. ~enber fro-:t either side of the House can get up after Orders of the Day have been called, and on a matter of personal information or infornatian to the House, which does not come normally and technically under the rules, can rise in his .,lace end ::;ive infor:nation concerning natters that: !\ad occurred in the.

House ~hich miGht or o!~ht not be of interest to hon. me~ber3 on that particular ~oment, because if it does set such a precedent then many of the normal rules that are to be folloued in the House vill be seriously jeopardized and it will be very difficult for us to operate. MR. ROBERTS: ~-T.. ?ECiZFORD: ~'!F .• :.TEARY: 1J7 .• PECKFORD: It has been done before now.

But on behalf of the !~inist:er of Transportation - Are you jealous or what? - and Co~"':lunic.:ttions, I •,.;ould li~~e to c.!.1ank the :wn. :ncmber for :;iving us ::h.2. infor::lation ::hac he docs conduct r.:~eetings at var:!..OU!J ::i::-.es in t:1e course of ~lis duties as a r::.em'Uc.r of this House. :·::P,. SPE.'Y..ER: :iow that the hen. c:u:1mber has been thanl:ed, and th.mked for !Jeing c:tankcd, I Co not think he vill need any further tha."1l:.s. OR!J£!'.5 OF TIU: DAY: ~!!t. SPEAM-R: Order 3. The hon. ner.:ber for Burgee - 3ay d'Espoir.

:tr. Speaker, it is -:::.y pleasure to have a :ev additional ;:ords to say on :he budget. I !1avc alreaCy had sane ti!l:e as ne:::bers of the House and :::ter.::ber:J of the House and c.e:nbers of the public will be aware. Indeed as the first speaker for tile Opposition side I • on behalf of ':.Y colleagues, and I believe on behalf of all cecbers of the House, an availing, I ilill. availi.'"lg of a ti:::e honoured tradition inbedded in the rules :or a nu::::ber of ver; good reasons of taking some e:{tra t!.me to put forth ::•c Opposition position on the Jud:;et . . \s I :1avc said, ~!r.

Soe.::;.;\.er, thl::; is a rule which is b.bedded in the I!ouse rules, in tae Standing Orders, and ~-lr. Speaker, ~.;hich was inbedded once again Yihe:-:. the Cottt::l..ittee concer.ted :ast looked at t;1e ::J.attc.r in the l.as t t',.;o or th't'ec year:;, It ;.:as i!:'.bedde.d, ~!r. Speak.:.;r, .::.s I say for a nunber of ;cod reasons. ?irst of all because of course tha ?t'i~ciple of unlimited time is o:;cll established. That does not mean, ~r. Speaker, it ought to be abused, It should not be abused by the ::J.embcr speaking, nor should it be abused by other rn~~bers of the House.

I say to the House now that it is not my particular intention to take an undue a.":lount of time, I have already been speaking wi.th sor::.c difficulty, sot1e interruptions, interruptions from one day to the next and intern:ptions duri"-g t:he day, during the actual speech :naking itself. I first started to nake :::his speech a week a!?O on Tuesday and I :1ave. had three occasions since then, four occ."lsions altogether • and now this occasion today. A ..

"ld it is a little difficult, ~{r, Speaker, wher. you start a speech on Tuesday and then nine days later you are still in the process of mnl:i:l.g it because the matter of continuity or train of thought, or contiauity of t:1ncght comes into play. It is all the r.Dre difficult, :·!r. Speaker, when you have soe:e '!lis chief m,'lking going on ·..;idle you are trying !:o !:take your speech vhcre you have reople. -;-Tho come in •.:ith very extr:meous ::'loints of privilege, f.. couple of :nenbers in particular

: ... ~ - 3 ~ave taken an undue r.ount of the ti:ne of the House ! think to ge:: together soeethins like three or three and a half hours of the tit:te since I beg~n spenkin; c:ere taken by the tl.ember for Kilbride and the rr:enber for Grund Falls in making points of order and one mon~ental point of order you trill re:::ember, ~r. Speaker, w-hich took an ~our and fifteen :::dnutes to settle, •,.;as •.Jhcther or nat there ·,;as a quorum :!.n the !-!ouse.

That uas raised by a ::1ec:ber during t::e tb.e ·,;~:!.ch :!.s :1ustensibly assi:;t".ed to ne and '"ill Oe said to be part of c:.e overJ.ll t:ir.:e I h.::.ve spoken. Hell of course let the record sho>t for that hour and fifteen minutes, while •.:e "tere t.•aitin~ to educate the nember for Grand Falls (~r. Lundrigan) on the natte!' of •·•lwthcr there ~1a.s a quorum, t 11as not sneakinc,

June 1, 1978 Tape 3803 PK - 1 Mr. Simmons: I was sitting in my seat waiting for the matter to pass. thought I should say that, Mr. Speaker, because it seems the member for Grand Falls (Mr. Lundrigan),in particular,is awfully concerned about the fact that I believe something of the order of eleven or twelve hours have elapsed since first I began speaking. And I repeat that is not to say that I have been speaking those many hours by any stretch of the imagination. But since I first began speaking since before these interruptions that I have mentioned to you. I mention it for a couple of reasons, r~r.

Speaker, first of all, that we do not abuse, Mr. Speaker, and I did not hear the member for Grand Falls today on the radio but I am told by people who did listen to the radio at lunchtime, and I \'las in a meeting, am told that he was making some statements having to do with the length of my speech. And I am i'tondering, Mr.

Speaker, I will not raise a matter of privilege on it now, but I will put it out as some food far thought for members of the House, I wonder if indeed the member for Grand Falls was not himself abusing the privileges of the House, if he has quoted from me correctly. am wondering if he is not undermining in the public eye, Mr. Speaker, a very sacred principle embedded in the tradition and the rules of this House, namely, that there is a provision far unlimited time in our rule books, and for a couple of good reasons. See, Mr.

Speaker, the Opposition, any Opposition, in any House of Parliament anywhere has only very few levers, and I think that is the term, very few levers, Mr. Speaker, to force a government to give its undivided attention, to an issue or issues which the Opposition feel are of import, which the Opposition feel at any particular moment in time are crucial and need immediate consideration. It can do that. It can bring the government 1 s undivided attention to such an issue in one of two or three ways under the Parlimentary Rule Book, and one clear way obviously is on money bills. And last year, Mr.

Speaker, we demonstrated that this lever is not only operative

June 1, 1978 Tape 3803 PK - 2 Mr. Simmons: but that it works very, very we 11 . .A.nd members of the House and people publicly will remember that last June I stood here in this place and I talked on a money bill, and then I sat down, and we were in Committee, and another colleague spoke, and then I stood up and spoke again, and so through the day from about 11:00 o'clock in the morning when I first began speaking until 5:30 in the afternoon we were really drawing attention to a matter that needed an immediate decision from the government. And I put to the House now, Mr.

Speaker, a matter that would not have got an immediate decision from the government had it not been for the lever that we had on that money bill to hold that bill up until we forced the government to give its undivided attention to a very crucial and pressing issue. The issue you will recall at the time, of course, is still a very pressing and present issue, the issue of the Public Works spending practices. And as a result of using the parliamentary lever, and it is not something we have stolen, Mr.

Speaker, it is not something we do with disgrace, it is something we do with honour, as members of this House who exercise nat only our rights but our responsibilities, our responsibility to direct the government 1 s attention, undivided attention to a crucial issue. And on that day, I believe, it was the 5th. or 6th. day of June last year I stood here. and I pointed out that we were not prepared to let that money bill go through until such time as the government agreed to a public enquiry into the way public money has been spent through through the Department of Public 1tJorks spending practices.

Well first of all we were told that it could not be done on that kind of thing, but to make a long story short, because I just want to use it as an example, the lever worked that day, the lever that we had under the rules of the House not by boycotting or by filibustering or by doing anything which is undignified, but by operating strictly and in the spirit of, strictly within, and in the spirit of the rules of this House we were able to do the public a big service, we the Opposition were able to convince the

June 1, 1978 Tape 3803 PK - 3 r~r. Sirrrnons: government to give its undivided attention to the matter of a public enquiry. And as the public knows now that enquiry is ongoing under the commission issued to Mr. Justice Mahoney, and that enquiry met for a week or so last month, and will begin meetings, I believe, again next week for an extended period of three or four more weeks as the case may be. On that occasion, Mr. Speaker, the parliamentary lever which we do not use often in this Opposition,

June 1, 1978, Tape 3804, Page 1 -- apb MR. Sn.M::NS: we used it last June, we do not use it very often. Indeed, I think the last time we used it was last June. It worked. Inside of a day, Mr. Speaker, it worked and we were able to get a public enquiry. And I submit, Mr. Speaker, we would never have gotten that public enquiry if we did not have that lever. That, Mr.

Speaker, is one of the very good reasons why parli~.entarians and parliamentary experts - men of experience and women of experience - over the years who have served in parliaments all over this world have seen to it that that kind of a lever is embedded in the parliamentary rule book. We have one other such lever, r1r. Speaker, and it is the lever of unlimited time in the Budget debate, and it is given, Mr. Speaker, under the rules to the member who first speaks for the opposition or first Speaks in reply to the budget debate.

We know, of course, that all other members who speak in this debate will be governed by the normal times. The Leader of the Opposition and the Premier will each have ninety minutes and all other members of the House will have forty-five minutes unless somebody moves a non-confidence motion, then he has unlimited time. Otherwise, ~tr. Speaker, the only person who has unlimited time in this particular debate is the person who leads off. Now my colleagues in the Opposition have designated that I should be the first to lead off on this particular issue. I have spent a fair amount of the House's time, Mr.

Speaker, talking about a number of issues. At no time have I seen it as a delaying tactic. I have waited until today to say in words what I felt every member of the House understood from the beginning, that we are today and have been during the past few days using our unlimited time under the rules of the House to draw attention to some very pressing issues

June 1, 1978, Tape 3804, Page 2 apb MR. SIMMONS: facing the people of this Newfoundland and Labrador. We have been in this House now since the 4th of March. We should have been here since last Fall. At the very latest we should have been here since early January. The government did not call the House together until the 4th of March. The budget came down the 17th of March. The following week we should have been allowed to debate that budget. The fact is, Mr. Speaker, contrary to every precedent in any parliament in this world, the government did not call the budget debate until last Tuesday.

A debate that should have been called around the 20th or 21st of March was not called until the last week in May. So for over two months, Mr. Speaker, we were given no opportunity except through Question Period to voice our concerns on matters affecting the economy of Newfoundland and Labrador, affecting the financial condition of the Province, affecting the shockingly high un~~ployment rate which prevails and which is causing a lot of suffering around this Province.

We were given no opportunity, first,last Fall because the government would not call the House together, then during January and February because the government would not call the House together and then during March, April and May because the government would not call the budget debate and therefore would not give members of the Opposition and members of this House generally,an opportunity to address themselves to some of the pressing problems which we face. So I say, Mr.

Speaker, to the House today that we are using this unlimited time, a1.d I say it is not our intention to use it for any indefinite period, but we are using this unlimited time, Mr. Speaker, so that we can draw attention- as I believe I have begun to do and will continue to do during the next little while - to draw attention, Mr. Speaker, to the need for programmes

June 1, 1978, Tape 3804, Page 3 -- apb MR. SI~~ONS: to deal with the high unemployment rate. We have not yet, Mr. Speaker, in this session of the House been given an opportunity to give our ideas on this particular subject and I shall attempt to do so in the next few minutes because I want to address myself particularly this afternoon, to the unemployment situation. We are using this lever of unlimited time, Mr.

Speaker, as an opposition - and I happen to be the one speaking because the rules say only one can speak - but I speak for the Opposition when I say that we,collectively,are using this lever to draw attention to some pressing issues; the issue of unemployment which I have just mentioned, other issues that I mentioned a moment ago about the financial state of the Province, about the economy generally and about what measures ought to used, ought to be brought into play to bring about certain improvements. We are using it also, Mr.

Speaker, this unlimited time lever, to get the government to concentrate its energies and its undevided attention

June 1, 1978 Tape 3805 EC - 1 HR. S IMHONS: on providing us as the elected represen~atives and on providing the people of Newfoundland and Labrador with proof, :tr. Speaker, that the taxpayers' money is being properly spent. And I tell you, Mr. Speaker, that is more and more a concern of the people of this Province. We have scarce resources. We do not have a lot o! coney to lash out. We cannot afford that our bit of scarce tax ~oney be wasted or improperly spent or spent against the law or spent in violation of the law or be used to line the pockets of a few.

We must insure and we must be satisfied beyond a doubt, we must have proof that the money is being spent as it ought to be spent under the law and with compassion .to help the most people with the few tax dollars we have. And to that end, Mr. Speaker, to the end of insuring that we have the proof that the money is being well spent, we in the Opposition, Mr.Speaker, repeat what we have asked for before and what we think is legitimate in requesting.

We ask for a public inquiry - a full scale public inquiry into the whole Scrivener matter because of the millions of dollars of taxpayers' money which has been tied up there which probably could have been better spent elsewhere; certainly that part of it which may have been spent improperly could have been spent much better elsewhere. And we demand again today, Mr. Speaker, that that public inquiry be set up.

It will be argued that the Mahoney inquiry to which I made reference may have some jurisdiction there, and I looked at the terms of reference again this morning and there is no doubt that the Mahoney inquiry can address itself to any of the spending practices of the Department of Public Works which took place after

June 1, 1978 Tape 3805 EC - 2 MR. SUHIONS: April l, 1974. And I suppose by implication it could be interpreted that if they find some matter which took place after 1974 which had its beginnings before 1974 they may then be allowed to delve back into the history of it. But I think, Mr. Speaker, it needs to be made more clear, more unequivocal. I believe there ought to be, Mr. Speaker, either a public inquiry into the Scrivener affair or, ~r. Speaker, since we must be running out of judges now in terms of public inquiries there is another alternative, Xr. Speaker.

And I wish the Minister of Justice were here, but perhaps we will convey it to him later. There is another alternative outside of a full scale public inquiry on the Scrivener affair alone and it is this - an addendum, an amendment - an amendment to the terms of the Mahoney Coamission, an amendment which would make it clear, Mr. Speaker, a further commission- I do not know what their appropriate terms is, perhaps an addendum or an amendment or a rider or an additional commission perhaps is a phrase which would connote what I am trying to say - an additional commission to the Commissioner, Mr.

Mahoney, saying, Look, in addition to the matter set forth in your commission of so and so date, we hereby instruct you also to look into all matters relating to the Scrivener affair. Perhaps that would be the simple way out rather than another public inquiry, because I can see the dangers of two public inquiries ongoing at the same time which in many ways would have to be overlapping in terms of its area of investigation and inquiry. MR. DOODY; I think that Justice ~ahoney interprets his mandate - ~-!R. SIHMONS: Yes, that may well be. I have not -

June 1. 1978 MR. DOODY: about it. HR. SIMHONS: Mr. Hahoney? l!R. DOODY: Tape 3805 EC - 3 That is the impression I have Has the minister talked to Not directly. The Assistant Deputy Minister of Justice. I think. - !"IR. S IMHONS: I see. Well, I certainly have no quarrel if that is the case. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) HR. Sim!ONS: No. If the Minister of Transportation has a clear understanding. well certainly that is encouraging. Not that I disbelieve the minister. but I would like to hear Mr. Mahoney - MR. DOODY: You can check it with the HR. SIMMONS: Yes, alright, well I shall do that. I would like to hear Mr.

Mahoney expound on the matter or otherwise enter it into the record, not that I mistrust any of the persons involved, but I would like to have the assurance before we let go on this, because as I point out it is a lever that we have and that is the context in which I am talking now. I say to the Hinister of Transportation that if we have the assurance that the matter will be looked into - I am not concerned about the mechanics. HR. DOODY: You will get no quarrel from us in the department. HR. SIMHONS: Okay, the minister says we will get no quarrel from him on it.

Well, we will have to wait and see on that one, Hr. Speaker, but I would hope that we would get no quarrel, because the whole

June 1, 1978 Tape 3805 EC - 4 HR. SIHHONS: Scrivener affair has to be looked into either as a separate public inquiry or

JU:1C 21 !978 ';-'! - l as a cle.arly unc!e::-stood p.:1rt of the assignrnc:tt of '1"r. Justice "!ahoney, an:.l eithe!:' •,;:ty, Nr. Sf)eak2r, ;rould suit me just fine. Also, ~r. Speaker, we are using this lever of the t.mlimited time to ensure that there is a full investigation into the govcrnce:;.t's J.ealim::s, ·~r. Sreaker, uith 'Ir. Dobbin 1 "lnd in tloe larr;er contex::, the. .governoent 1 s dealings, '!r. S?ea:<:.er, on t:1e t:'l-<ltter of office sp,1ce.

There are a lot of unanswered cl:!.:.z,hts ago, a11 ·.-:e :1aJ uas a gover;<r::cnt -:otc:, a govcra:--.ent majority iooosed, and all c:1is nonse:;.se we :1eard about a free vote of course is exactly th~tt, :1.onsense. Eut .:~.11 ve had ;lere a :c:.-: uig:1.ts ago, or one early r:ar:J.i:lg J.Ocut eigilt o 1clocl:, ;:ftcr an all night debate, -;;as a govcp:ncnc voti:< that Ci<ere :-2 no cor::.:mittec set up, that is all -.rc deciCed, that the committee would not be set up. It ~ecided none of ::.he issues, none of the unanswered ouestions about the government's dealing with :-lr.

Dobbin on office space, or the gover:-.t".ent' s dealings with other would be suppliers of office space, and there is need, '!r. Spea~er, for either a public enquiry into that or for a select coo:nittee of the House, as \;e have so often asked for over here, a select cowmittce, ~~r. Speaker, to look into the .,.,;,ole deal involvin;; :-rr. Dobbin and involving e:overrunent office 5oacc for this year ;;enerally. There are t·..ro siCcs to this, :'lr. Speaker, and one is the unseecly going!:> on in the government's efforts to c:mi~e deals uith men like Hr. Dobbin, but the other side of it, ~!r.

Speaker, is to '.J'hat de;;ree is the public service sufferin~ because of the present hodge podt;c of office space all over the city, And that is a question t!l;:J.t a select com::tittee could address itself tc. And I o;;ould hope, ~~r. Speaker, that ;J.t zome point soon, soc;c indication caulC !Jc ;;ive:;, to us, that t:-te goverr.r.ent is prepared to set up, to .::;.grcc

- 2 ··:::L S:t!!:o::s: to the setting up of such a select cocoitt~e of the aouse, or sol:'.e. k.ind of an enquiry into all t~1e d.eali;tgs affecting office space. So 1 say, ~~r. Speaker, before I cove on to the substance of the other things I want to say this afternoon, that we are consciously here on the Opposition side, using the lever of unlimited time provided to us under the rules of the ilouse, to do ~~o or three i~ortant thin2~, insofar as :JC crre concer.:ed and insofar as the ?ublic i.s co::'lccrned.

One, to ensure that ~·Je talk about and hear ubout :;overnn:.ent' s plans for orostrilmrnes to deal uith unemployment, with the econony, with the Province's financial position. Two, we are using that lever until we get the proof, the proof ·..1e need thnt the taxpayers' :::;or.ey is !;ei:l.g oroperl:' spent, spent ..,.it:hi:1. the law.

To get that ?roof '"c suggest that either Xr. ~ahoney or another cot::tt:'lissioner be authorized, or let us oake sure he is authorized, to look into the whole Scrivener affair, to get that proof we ask a3ain that a full scaled enquiry, it may take the form of a select comnittee of this House, and perhaps that is the way out, ~!r. Speaker, a select committee of this House be set up to look into the ":;hole questia:l. of government office space. :!-tow, Hr. Spe;1ker, as I have said, I have heard the r:::ember for Grand. Falls 1 heard about his bellyaching, about the fact that I have unlimited time.

I vish he · .. .ril!. also be honest vith the people, and I wish he ·will tell the ?Caple that the unlimited tioe that I exercise new on behalf of the Opposition is given to us under the rules of this House, and it ts an insult to the Speeker, an insult to the S;ea!:er of this House, an insult to the Ho"J.se itself, for .:1 rnet:.ber to ;c out of here and someho~1 imply that Hr. Spea!-:er is letting t'!e a.vay t:ith somethine that he should not. ~tr.

Speaker is doing what I am doing in th:f s instance, ;Je are bot:-t abidin~ very :nuch by the spirit and the letter of the law othcn it comes to the reg;ulnticns of t!-lis Eo use. And vha!:

~~R. S!~210NS: ! run doing at this !':'lo:::er:.t: :i.n tir.::e is ~eeing to it~ and uh;:u: '!r. S?e::ker is C.oir:.g at this noment i:1 tine is seeing to it, as we always do I hope, certainly as he always docs, that the rules of this Rouse are properly enforced, und for a ::.eober, lil·.e the ncmi:Jer for Grand Fall::; e:r. !..undri;.:ui) co &:I on the ain:aves and suggest, :rr.

Speaker, c:ut: sottehow you are not c!oin~t: your job here i5 an b.sult to the House a.'"ld ile should be brouz,ht perhaps befor.a ::re bar of the House if t~at is possi!Jl2, or he F.i;.Jul.:! :,e taken to task and ocrl:aps I Jhoulcl :1ave r.J.:!.sed t::C.e point of privilege in :he first place, because it is a serious violation I subt:lit, ~1r. Speaker, of t\-.e rul·:!S of this !:louse, :,;hen you have members li:ce the mecber for Grand Falls (:Ir. Lundri;an) gain;::. out.1idc this llouse and ur:4ermi::.ing t~<c ver-1 traditions w~ fight for, :.mder=,ini:tg

June. 1,1978 Tape ~o. 3807 AH-1 MR.SHfr10NS: the very traditions that allov us to be here in the first place, undermine the very traditions and rules and privileges that have been given to us by time,by our ancestors, by people w-ho fought hard for their freedom. To have a member go out and just for the reason of getting his voice on the air to somehow imply that we are here doing something that is despicable and without dignity. It is a shocking, shocking indignity in itself and that member should be taken to task, Mr.

Speaker, for so undermining the, rules of this House, for so undermining the position of this House in Uhe public minds. HR. SPEAKER: (Dr.Collins) Order, please! I in no way ...,ish to interfere ~th the han. member's remarks but I would just like to bring to his and to other han. member's attention that there is a ruling pending in this general area ~nd hopefully later today this ruling can be made in the general area that the han. member is discussing, that is the remarks made in regard to t.Uether or not the House and t!le people in the Province were insulted by certain remarks.

There is a ruling pending in that general area which hopefully we will get to later today. MR. SL'1MONS: The ruling from the other night. HR. SPEAKER:(Dr.Collins) Yes. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I understand 1 t talking about the ruling that he left in abeyance the night before last when he himself was in the Chair, a ruling relating to whether a member had used insulting language or something of that nature. AN HON. l!E.'1llER: A member had said tlmt something was an insult to the House and - aR. SI!!XONS: That is right.

The member for Grand Falls (Mr.Lundrigan) had said that something ~s an insult and one of my colleagues got up and rose on a point of privilege and the ruling has not been made. I fully understand that, Mr. Speaker, and I hope Mr. Speaker, did not think that I was in anyway getting into that particular area, I was actually addressing myself to an action of the member for Grand Falls (~r. Lundrigan) not in the House the other night - and that is another subject which is nov pending a ruling but the action of the

June 1,1973 Tape No. 3307 AH-2 llil. SHiXO!lS: member for Grand Falls (ar, tundrigan) this day on the public airwaves, this is the issue I was talking about and I think I well ~ade my point on it. I wish he were here, he was momentarily when I began my remarks because I would rather say these things in his presence. He should tell the people of Newfoundland, Mr. Speaker, when he is bellyaching,and I think that is the proper term for it, when he is be!lyaching,Xr.

Speaker, about the fact that a member is using unlimited time , that one he should tell the people Of Newfoundland in all honesty that that member is doing it because that is his right and the right of this chamber, the right of this House, He should also, Hr.

Speaker, instead of just leaving it hanging and saying that I have been talking for so many hours, he should tell the people that he interrupted my speech for over an hour on one occasion, that his colleague from Kilbride (ar.Wells) interruptkld my speech for two hours on another occasion making some silly points of privilege or so they call them, he should tell the people of !~e-wfoundland, Mr. Speaker, that member for Grand Falls (Mr. Lundrigan) should also tell them that I have taken considerable time in this speech, Mr.

Speaker, talking about such things as the oppressive ~ax measures of this government, the tax increase to eleven per cent, the dental fee, the hospital ward fee and all the other increases, the other oppressive tax measures that are in this Budset if you can call it that, He should tell them that t have talked for awhile about the misleading nature of the blueprint, the socalled blueprint that the Minister of Finance brought in with his budget, that misleading document that talks about all the jobs that are going to be created, that talks about the per capita income increase and I sho-wed how misleading those statements are.

He should tell them also that I have talked about the government's approach to industrial development, about the tunnel across the Straits and the $110 million they squandered there, about how they signed a death warrant for Stephenville, about how they played foolloose and fancyfree with Come By CP~nce and made contradictory announcements at a time when they had information to the effect that Come By Chance was in trouble. they

June 1,1978 Tape :'lo. 3807 AH-3 l:IR. SD!MONS: cade announcemenr:s abour: a second refinery at Come By Chance and a pet.rochemical plane. I have calked about the government's approach to industrial development, I never said I am proud of it, I have talked about it, I have said what is wrong with it., I have said what is misleading about it, I have said what. is dishonourable about. :i.e.. The meJ?,ber, for Grand. Falls (Xr.Lundrig<l.

n) said nothing abo\!t that r:oday, ~Ir. Speaker, because that 'Was not. convenient for him to say nor did he say, Mr. Speaker, that. I have talked for an hour or so about r:he government's misuse of public funds. Nor did he tell the.t::. that I spoke for an hour or so about the part.icular needs of the elderly in this Province and how we ought to change our attitudes about the elderly before we salt them all away in institutions 'Without even asking whether that is the course of action that. is best for them or not, it is for some but it is not for all.

Nor did he tell them that I expressed my cancers about the Public Accounts Committee and how it is being stalled no~, how ~e cannot get the committee to meet now. I gave my suspicions as to why it is not meeting, it is a very important vehicle of this House, Nr. Speaker, and it is being stalled right now and I suggest it is being stalled for some ulterior motive and I said that the other night. I have talked, Mr. Speaker, about the government's spending practices generally, I have talked about the letter writing of the nember for Green Bay (Mr.Peckford) I did not spend much time on that,

June 1, 1978 Tape 3808 PK - 1 ~1r. Sirmnons: Mr. Speaker. because it is not an important issue except to the extent that a minister of the Crown is using the public taxpayers money to buy postage to insult the public taxpayer. I think that is serious that a minister of the Crown would use the taxpayers money to insult them by writing posion pen letters. I mention that. I did not spend time on that, Mr. Speaker, because it is too petty a mattter in a way. AN HON. MEMBER: It is a serious matter. MR. SIMMONS: Yes, it is a serious matter, !~r. Speaker.

It is a serious matter when a lady in Baie Verte whose husband goes down in a mine every day not knowing whether he will come up with or without the disease that he so dreads. It is a serious matter 1>1hen she in her righteous and legitimate concern writes the minister responsible for enery matters in this Province, and pours out her soul to him in a very dipolmatic v1ay as you will see from the correspondence that was tabled in this House. rt is a serious matter, Mr.

Speaker, when she is insulted, and it is not my words, look at the letters tabled in this House, when she is being insulted by a minister of the Crown of whom she only ask that he give some consideration, that he show a little compassion, and she gets kicked in the teeth for being concerned about the health of her family and her children. [t is a petty issue in a 'ftay, Mr. Speaker, but at the same time it is a crucial issue. Because if we do not have in government, Mr. Speaker, men and vmmen with compassion to understand - AN HON. I,IEHBER: The sensitivities. MR.

SIMMONS: - the feelings, the concerns, even the sensitivities, even the whims, Mr. Speaker, of the ordinary people of this Province and what is the government all for? Government is not a business, Mr. Speaker, government is not just a matter of arrogant and efficient and proper bookkeepping. It should must be that. But they must realize that it is there, Mr. Speaker, to service people. the sensitivities of people, the feelings of people, the legitimate concerns of people.

June 1 , 1978 Tape 3808 PK - 2 Mr. Simmons: So I did talk, Mr. Speaker, although the member for Grand Falls (Mr. Lundrigan) saw it convenient not to mention it. did talk about the poison ten letters from the Minister of Energy. did not spend a lot of time at it, although perhaps I should have. Because it underlies the whole reason for government either you have people in government whom you can empathize, whom you can relate to, or you do not. In the case of the Minister of Energy, of course, we do not. ! talked, ~1r. Speaker, for a few minutes about that nefarious, skulduggerist, Special Action Group.

I did not get much action by talking about it. I did not even get the Premier to keep his promise that he had tabled the contract of Mr. Bob Cole, a $47,000 part-time job. He went before a Rotary Group down here in St. John 1 s a month or so ago, and described the people on the Action Group as a volunteer group and I had this elderly gentleman - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. SIMMONS: - down in St. John's call me~ and he said, did you see what the Premier said to Rotary yesterday, he said, they were volunteers. He said if you hear~ he said, Simmons if you hear about another $47,000 volunteer job let me know.

He said, I will take it. He said, I am only seventy-three years of age, but I take it~ he said, just as a volunteer provided there is $47,000 in it. I guess he wold. So I did talk, Mr. Speaker, for a few minutes about the Special Action Group. I talked about the government•s relationship to that famous trio, Mr. Speaker, Doyle, Shaheen, and Dobbin. And how in some ways those relationships have changed. The government1 S relationship to Doyle, Shaheen and Dobbin. And I said, Mr.

Speaker, in paraphasing a bit of Shakespeare the ather day that when the Premier talks so often and so nervously and so sensitively about Doyle, perhaps to paraphase Brother Shakespeare very badly, "Methinks the Premier doth protest too much." I believe he goes out too much, Mr. Speaker, saying I do not know the fellow, so much does he say that you have to ask the question, what is he really concerned about? Is he

June 1, 1978 Taoe 3808 PK - 3 t~r. Sirrunons: really concerned that his real relationship vlith r1r. Doyle will come out, like his real relationship with Hr. Dobbin is coming out? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SIMMONS: I have talked about these issues, Mr. Speaker, but the member for Grand Falls (Mr. Lundrigan did not see fit to talk about that, or the member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) when he gave his pontifical version yesterday of what is going on in the House of Assembly. Those people, Mr. Speaker, who go on the public ainvays like the member for St.

Jahn 1 S East, and the member for Grand Falls, and misrepresent what is going on in this House, Mr. Speaker, should be dealt with by the House. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! fiR. S!MfiONS: Should be dealt with by the House. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. S!MMONS: I have had enough, Mr. Speaker, of all this bellyaching about people lowering the dignity of the House.

And they get on the public airways and in the same mouthful when they condemn people of lowering the dignity of the House they are doing the very thing, they are complicating it, they are doing it worse than anybody here could do it even if we set out deliberately try it every minute we are here. ~Je could not

June 1, 1978 Tape 3809 EC - 1 11R, SIHMONS: do it, ~r. Speaker, in as vicious a fashion as the member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) did it yesterday and the member for Grand Falls (Mr. Lundrigan) did it today, and I predict there will be another member over there tomorrow, because they are getting so desperate, Mr. Speaker, that they are willing to do anything, even to submit to low tricks like we saw yesterday and today on the pu~lic airways - low tricks to undermine this House and talk about it being destroyed. It will be only destroyed, Mr.

Speaker, if we do not have the guts and the intelligence and the fortitude and the good sense to conduct the House's business in the House. We try to conduct it on the airways, we try to make out little kindergarten points like the member for Grand Falls outside where he cannot be rebutted as it were. Let him come in here, Mr.Speaker.

If he is concerned about the House and its dignity and its performance and its function, and whether it is going to be a vital organ in the future of this Province, whether it is going to be an instrument of good for the people of Newfoundland and Labrador, come in here - be a man about it. Do not get behind a tape recorder - come in here, be a man about it. If there is something you do not like about the House let us change it here. !he challenge is not all that big, Mr. Speaker, when t~e personsengaging in the kindergarten tactics, the members for St.

John's East and Grand Falls, are people who have the majority of the House on this side. So they want change? They do not like the unlimited time? Let them change it. change it. They have the majority over there - let them I say now, Mr. Speaker, we are inventive

June 1, 1978 Tape 3809 EC - 2 HR. SIMHONS: enough on this side of the House. We take our responsibilities seriously enough on this side of the House that if they cut off the unlimited time, I give them notice naY that ye will find another way, Mr. Speaker, to get this government to concentrate its undivided attention on the main issues of the day -on the issues of unecplayment, the economy, the financial condition, the high taxes we are paying here. We Yill find a way.

We happen to have a very good way right naY called unlimited time and we intend to use it responsibly -not indefinitely, but responsibly until we make our point, And we will make our point today if we sit down today. If it takes us another week to make our point we will take another week, but we will not be intimidated, Mr. Speaker, for one milli-second by those kindergarten tricksters who have not the gall nor the gumption nor the guts to perform their job responsibly in this House but instead go outside and chip away at the very process that means so much to us.

The very parliamentary process that people have fought long and hard for over the years, they go out and they chip away at it for the sake of thirty seconds commentary on the radio. Let them come in here, Mr. Speaker, and do something about it. If this mechanism is not ~orking exactly as it should be, let them come in here and help do something to beef it up, not to tear it down. SOME !ION. ME!IBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIH~!ONS: I have talked, Xr. Speaker - although the member for Grand Falls (Mr. Lundrigan) did not mention it - about the government's financial position, and it is much more desperate than we know.

And one of th~ reasons it is more desperate than we know is because the

June 1. 1978 Tape 3809 EC - 3 MR. snmons: books up until a year ago were not even being properly kept. In the 1975 - 1976 year there ~ere $200 million in entries which were either entered in the wrong places or not entered at all. How do you like that? - $200 million entered in the wrong places in the government books or not entered at all. How do you know, tlr. Speaker. where you stand if one­ fifth of your entire expenditure is entered in the wrong places or not even entered at all? How do you know you have a deposit in a bank in New York if you do not have a record of it? Well, I will tell you how you know.

In this case you happen to have a trusting banker who calls you up, as he did the government, and says, 'By the way, do you know you have a deposit down here?' It is only a few million dollars, mind you. How is that for responsible fiscal accounting in government? Is it any wonder I stand here and ask again and again what is our real financial position as a province? Do we really know if we are not even keeping the books right? AN HON. HEMBER: And you say you are wasting time when you bring these questions forward. MR. SIMMONS: And then, Hr.

Speaker, I am supposed to be wasting time if I tell the ?Ublic such petty little things as, 'We had $200 million put in the wrong places or not in it at all. We had money in a New York bank we did not even know about until the banker came back and told us. 1 That is wasting time, Mr. Speaker. I am wasting time, ar. Speaker, if I point out that $15 million to $20 million of the taxpayers' money in 1975 - 1976 was misspent without public tender. That: is supposed to be a waste of time, ~r. Speaker. It is a waste of time,

June 1, 1978 Tape 3809 EC - 4 }!R. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, in one way only. It is a waste of time for those who do not want to hear it. It is a waste of time

J:..:ne 1, 1:)73 7J.pc •. o. JG10 for those ~ho wished it could be kept. covered up, it is a uaste of ti:::.e for tl1ose t::'lo did not va,.'lt it to see the light of day. I can understnnd that for those people it is a waste of time. I will not spend too ~uch time apologi:ing to those ~eople though, because they are the reasons, Xr. Spea~cr, u;-,y it tool: so r:o.uch digging and ferkir.g around, ar'.d digging nnd digging a..'ld ferl:ing around, so much of lt, a."'ld public enquiries .:md ?Dlic!! investigations before we even begin to get to the trut;l and I say not:, ~'r.

Spea!<.er, again ::he ?ublic /.·ort:s thin:::;, the Scrivener thing, a:; serious as ::hey arc, rey colleague fro~:~. LaP aile ()!r. ~eary) has done a lot of research on the Scrivener project in particular. I say to hin, ! say to the House 1 that as serious as Scrivener is, as serious ilS t:1e P~!:Jlic :-;or~-:s scandal is, it:. is only t:1e tip of the ice berg I say to hir:, just the tip of the ice berg. Everywhere you go, ~tr.

Speaker. tl.ose ·.;ho are not fri~htened off from calling you for fear their telephones are being tapped, for fear if they Ytrite you a letter your files are going to get rifled as mine were, for fear they are going to ;;,e seen with you because you are being trailed half the time. Those ...-ho have :10t stopped being seen wi.th you for that reason, those vho have not stopped writing you for fear their letters are going to be snatched out of your file at sot:J.e dark hour of night - AN !10~f. ~-1E:13ER: ~P..

SI'""?-Y)!\S: How does your wife react to it? \iell let nc say it this way, I r.;anaged to get home last night in time to turn off the television. I ~anaged to get up tir::e enough this tlorning to get The Dnil v ~tews arod I hope to get hc~e in time this evening to get The Eveninn Telegra~ and I hope to ~e the only person in the household vho reads it today. 3ut, "!r. Speaker, that does bring up another issue which He trlll come to in time, because you see, Xr. Speaker, those people who vill still •.;rite who have not been intir.:adated and ~!r. Speaker, that is what it is, it !.s an intimadntion process. Ant!

I do not 1-:."lotJ hmv the rr:e=ber

Ju::e 1, 1973 Tn.pc ~:o. 3310 2 '!P.. SI~!c!ONS: for Buy of Islands (Mr. Hoodrow), I do not !.mo•,.:, !>!r, Speaker, o. man vith his background, his e01inent background, all the good he did fer the Sout~ Coast people in Newfoundland, ! still keep hearing about it, and the principle, :1r. Spen.ker, that he has always displayed, I do not know, !-!.r. Speaker, I do not bow how he can sit there. ! really do not. And perhaps some day, just as friend to friend, over the privacy of a cup of coffee, when there is nobody trailing r:::e, ! hope, r~r.

Speaker, I hope he ~rill sit do't<m a:1d do ne t!-.e courtesy cf just telling r::e how he ro.tionalizes all of this because I cannot sec, ~!r. Speaker, ! cannot see a man of such integrity, such principle, a nan who has fought long and hard for what he truly believes in - :rR. CALLAN: Still fi'i!:htbg. '-m SI'-"10NS: A man ~hose beliefs are admirable. I cannot u~derst~~d. Mr. Speaker, why he is not up asking some of the s~e ~uestions we are asking. I cannot understand it. As I was se.ying, :tr. Speaker, I exoect when all this is over he will probably be t!1e next speaker over there because of all over there, ~Ir.

Speaker, of all over there - ~m.. i1. RO\oiE : pen pal. Green 3ay is not getting up ~s he? Poison ';.'ell we ;.;ill need a ruling on that as to vhetl<er you can re.:J.d letters in t:~1e :rouse, read your o"'-n. ·:au ::an read other letters but. tbe::J. you '.1avc to tabl<:!. t:1e:n. Z.ut what l1appens u:tc:J. you read your ovn lcttii!rs, :!r. Spea::cr? Is that p<lrliaoentary. But, :·tr.

Speaker, seriously, those people who have not stopocd writing me because they are afraid their letters are going to be snatched in the dark of ni~ht down in ::1y office or i;: my hor::.e some ~ .. -eek when I un out of to'<.rn, those people who ~ve :1ot stopped telephoning me '::lecause son:.e of the things they told ::1e on the ohone in strictest confidence ~ave somehow become less confidential, those oeoole, ~!r. Spea!:cr,

'::c.pc ::o. 3S:!.'J s:; :~P •• SI~:roxs: ;.;;10 still vrite ::te and wi10 ;;; till p!1one o.e t:,:;ll C'lC. enouhh that I k .. "'l.ow, ~tr. Speaker, that: t~le Scrivener and the Public #arks scandal are just but the tip of the ice berg. t~ell as I say 1 talked about these things. I did not spend a lot of ti~e on the scandals. r wanted to dra~ attention to the=. But I wanted also to talk about the financial position, the job situation, t:1e position of the t:l:.!erly, the job chat: the ::inister of SducatiOlt is doing to ar!ucation :.!.n this Province. I t.all-:cd about t::lat at sorr:e lengt~.

It is very dear to C'lC, I spent a lifeti~e in education and r would like to talk long and hard about it, but I am a·,.,nre of oy possible conflict of interest there because being so close to it I ~ny ~ot be able to see t~c forest for the trees in so!71e respects and I say that to hi:ta honestly. /md so I have not talked cs r.luch about that issue as ! -...auld like to. But from the feedback I get, ~!r. Speaker, from the concerns of my friends in education and people generally and parents and youngsters, students, I know, '!r.

Speaker, that what is happening in education, and the r:l.inistcr :nust take a lot of the responsibility, ~Jill be ;tith ut for a long ti:e to come. Hell, :tr. Speaker, that is just by -...ay of preliminaries, just to bring you up to date because I did want to take the past ten or fifteen minutes or so just to enforce, ;;ecause it has been such o. long ti:::e since I :irst began talking and there has been so ~any interruptions, one day we did not get to the speech at all because we could not get through Question Period, last Friday if you rer.lember.

So it has been over a •...;eek or so airce I first began talking. I just ~anted to brin~ you up to Cute about tLe various issues !:hat ! have talked about in the few hours that I have stood here.

June 1, 1978, Tape 3811, Page 1 apb 11R. S INMONS ' Now, Mr. Speaker, there are other issues many of which we are not going to get the time to talk about. Mr. Speaker, I talked just a moment ago about the financial situation of this Province and I ask you, Mr. Speaker, how much worse, as bad as it is, how much worse would the finanical situation of this Province be if the federal government were not bailing this crowd out all the time?

The just bailed them out on the Trans-canada Highway and the Hinister for Tourism said, 'Over my dead body'. 'Over my dead body' he said to Frank. 'Over my dead body' he said, the Minister of Tourism. The Minister of Tourism said, 'That Trans-Canada Highway agreement, no way! Over my dead body' he said to the Premier. And do you know what, Mr. Speaker? They did it over his dead body. They did it over his dead body. If I h'ave ever seen, Mr. Speaker, a politically dead specimen - MR. MORGAN: I will be here when you are long gone. ~m. SIMMONS: Up she comes! - a politically dead specimen, Mr. Speaker. MR.

MORGAN: Time will tell. HR. SIMMONS: It goes to show, Mr. Speaker, the advisability of that sign,which I shall now paraphrase, in various offices. "Those who are politically dead please fall down." He does not have the courtesy, Mr. Speaker, to fall down although he is - over his dead body they were going to do it and the Premier took him on and did it over his dead body. But, Mr4 Speaker, the feds have bailed them out on the Trans-Canada Highway, the feds are bailing them out generally, on transfer payments of various kinds, the feds have bailed them out on tourism, bailed them out on the Trans-Canada.

June 1, 1978, Tape 3811, Page 2 -- apb SOHE HON. ~!EBBERS: Oh, oh! HR. SIH.'!ONS: Mr. Speaker, I am only quoting the words of the Minister of Tourism. He does not like either - or has he changed his mind now? - he does like what happened in Transportation, he told the whole Province that. He had to take it back to stay in the Cabinet. Like the other day, Mr. Speaker, he did not agree with the srpuce budworrn decision, but the he took it back, ~. Speaker, to stay in the Cabinet. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, to a point of order. HR. SPEAKER(Collins): HR. NEARY: Order, please! Order! A point of order.

I do not mind the han. gentleman forSt, John's Center (Mr. Murphy), Sir, having a nap but would somebody close his mouth when he is sleeping. SOHE HON. HEHBERS: HR. DOODY: fell asleep because - HR. WHITE: HR. S Ht'!ONS : Hear, hear! I would make no wonder he He has been asleep for years. I think in fairness, Mr. Speaker, the member for St. John's Center is well advised to keep his mouth open. Any sign of life over there will do because if his colleague behind him thinks he is dead he will bury him. HR. SPEAKER(Collins): Order, please! I feel there is no matter that the Chair can deal with here. The hon. member.

MR. SIMMONS: Mr. undertaker friend from Harbour Grace (Mr. Young) is always on the job. MR. WHITE: He is even dressed for the occasion.

June 1, 1978, -Tape 3811, Page 3 -- apb }ffi. SI~lliONS: AS they say, he is the last man to let you down. He is dressed and I say to the member for St. John's Center, the hearse is waiting outside. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: now, look! MR. W.N.ROWE: all. MR. NEARY: to suit him. MR. SIMMONS: When is the funeral? He is gone off disappointed The member was not dead after He wants to see if he has one He wants to make sure the flowers are still fresh, I guess. MR. NEARY: e is gone out to see if he has a five foot box to fit him. MR. WHITE: A hat box will do. MR. SIMMONS: Mr.

Speaker, I want to talk about the gentleman who is not asleep. He may be politically dead but now asleep, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Tourism. He dug his heels in - MR. WHITE: For a good cause too. MR. SIMMONS: - on a good cause, the Trans- Canada Highway issue. If he had done what the member for Grand Falls {Mr. Lundrigan) had done, he would have gotten the accolades of everybody on this side - and that is not important, I say to him.

Do not ever be overly impressed by the nice things we say over here about you, when we say them we have a reason for saying them - but more importantly he would have had the accolades of every person who drives over that Trans-Canada Highway. He dug his heels in on a very important issue, but then, Mr. Speaker, just when you are beginning to say, now there is a man of principle, he backs off because the practical issue is more important to him that the principle. Hanging on in Cabinet, Mr. Speaker,

June 1, 1978 Tape 3812 EC - 2 ~R. SIMMONS: so they should - concern, ~lr. Speaker, that is being fuelled because of the lack of any real, definitive information on this whole issue. So, Mr. Speaker, in that context, the other night we were on this heart rending debate. And we all over here did not agree -I hope the government noticed that. We all over here did not particularly agree on the solution to the problem. There was no vote involved as such - no substantive vote. And we gave our position freely.

I tried to get up in the debate but did not get an opportunity, and knowing I had this opportunity I did not want to crowd out some other people who also wanted to speak. But we had a heart rending debate the other night. It was the spruce budworm thing. And it is one that we do not have the easy answers to. You see, Mr. Speaker, if I may use a crude analogy, when you do not have the answers, when you do not have the definitive answer on an issue be it the spruce budworm or anything else there is only one course of action, Mr. Speaker, and I use a crude ananogy to make it.

If the fellow is condemned to be hanged but there is some doubt, you do not say well, we will hang him and we will find out eventually if we did the right thing, because it is hard to get life back into him after you have hanged him, you see. And that is the principle which must be operative here if there is a reasonable doubt, And certainly, Mr. Speaker, all the 800 who went to the meeting in Gander last night are not crackpots. There may be a few people there with axes to grind - a few people out to get the minister from Gander or the minister from Green Bay or the Minister of Forestry - there may be that.

There may be people there out to get me or the member for Windsor - Buchans (Hr. Flight)

June 1, 1978 Tape 3812 EC - 3 :!R. SUH!Oi1S: or the member for Levisporte (Mr. White), but that aside, Mr. Speaker, I am sure that of the 800 the overvhelming majority of people vent there for one reason and one reason only. They vent there because they had a concern over the spruce budworm issue. And as in my crude example about the man about to be hanged, if there is a reasonable doubt, there is only one possibility - AN HON. HEHB ER: When in doubt leave it out. HR.

S!HMONS: - delay it until we can find out what it is we are doing here, what we are meddling with here - whether we are meddling with the health of youngsters next year or five years down the road. HR. NEARY: Hear, hear! HR. SIHMONS: That is the issue. I do not care what the economic consideration is, I do not care what the dollars involved are. Who is going to put a price on a human life1 Who is going to put a price on the health of some youngster? If there is any doubt at all - and that is where we admired the Minister of Tourism the other night.

The man had the guts to get up and say something that he knew was going to get him into some trouble politically, but he had the guts to do it. the guts to do it first of all. Nobody had !1R. ROBERTS: flesh is weak. HR. SIMXONS: The spirit was willing but the You see, he has alnost enough, Mr. Speaker, the Trans-Canada Highvay issue and the spruce budworm issue illustrates that that minister has got almost enough courage - !-IR. H. ROHE: To open the barricade. MR. SDetoNS: They sing in the evangelical

June 1, 1978 Tape 3812 EC - 4 MR. SH!MONS: churches a song and one verse is 'Almost persuaded', and the last line is 'almost, but lost'. A-N HON. ~1EHBER: never get saved. HR. SIHMONS: lost. 'Jim', you will 'Almost' - that near, but

June 1, 1978 AN HON. HEHBER: AN HON. !>!EMBER: HR. SU!HONS: Tape 3813 EC - 1 Alleluia! Alleluia! Praise the Lord! And the minister illustrates the other aspect of what I want to say to him. Not enough to mouth the words, not enough, Xr. Speaker, to say the alleluias -you have to identify with the cause, you have to do so~ething about it. He started to do something about it the other night, Mr. Speaker, and he almost got there, but then somebody said, 'Jim, Cabinet. You will have to give up Cabinet.' The old devil speaks in his ear, 'Cabinet'. AN ;w:t. ME}113ER: Twelve grand. HR. S IMHONS: 'Cabinet.

Do not forget Cabinet, Jim. Are you sure you want to give up Cabinet and all its perks? - sitting around the table of important men two or three times a week solving the great problems. Cabinet, Jim -'Tourism, conferences in Quebec City, Vancouver. The Premier might even invite you to South America when he goes on his job hunting tour next year. Simmons over there recommended South America - the Premier will probably take him up - go to South America.

He might even not take the Kilbride member next year, he might take you, Jim- Cabinet, trips abroad, helicopters, Jim - all you are going to have to give up.' And of course, he gives in. Almost, but lost. Twice he has done it, Mr. Speaker - once on the 'highway' issue, now on the spruce budworm issue. If I were preaching, as he suggested, I would call to mind a verse of scripture which in paraphrased version only, !1r. Speaker - I assure you I cannot quote it exactly - in paraphrased version it says something to the effect, 'How much longer shall my spirit strive with man?' How many core chances will he be

June 1, 1978 HR. S D!HONS: more? SOHE HON. XEI-!DERS: HR. WHITE: You are going to burn! AN HON. HEHBER: AN HON. MEHBER: the budworm! HR. IIHITE: Tape 3813 EC - 2 given, !lr. Speaker? Hott many Oh, oh! You are going to burn, boy! Like the rest of them. He is going to go the way of It is a nice day. We should adjourn and go out on the lawn. ~!R. SIHMONS: No, there is a chance there, you see. There is a chance for him before he is eternally lost. There is a chance before he is completely, irrevocably, eternally lost. There is a chance. There is going to be another issue. This week we will give him another issue.

This week we have in the cards. This week we have another chance for the Minister of Tourism, and perhaps this time, having heard the warnings he will heed them. Perhaps this time he will have the courage to say, 'Yes, Cabinet with all its perks, helicopters, trips all over the place, the chance of going to South America next year with the Premier - all these, yes, I know, but I have ~y principles to worry about. I believe that the government should not have caved in over the Trans-Canada Highway deal,' he 'Will say. 'I believe the government should not be callous about this spruce bud'Worm decision.

I believe they are a bit premature. I believe,' on the new issue we are going to put before them this week- 'I believe the course the government is taking is the wrong course. And for that reason I will take the only honourable way. It hurts me to do it, but it would hurt me an awful lot more if ! did not do it. I believe it is the only way, because I have to look

June 1, 1978 Tape 3813 EC - J HR. SIMMONS: in the mirror tomorrow morning.' AN HON. HEMBER: We use the same kind of hair spray over here - MR. SIMMONS: Now while we are talking, Mr. Speaker - because I am sure there has been no doubt during the past few minutes about the finances of the Province - I want to get into another issue. When I got off on the Minister of Tourism- I admit, a favourite subject for me, I have a certain admiration for him, l!r. Speaker, I cannot put it into words but it is there - but, t!r.

Speaker, when I got on that subject I was talking about the federal government and the way it was bailing this government out on tourism and on transportation, two issues that the minister knows an awful lot about.

June l, 1978 Tape 3814 PK - 1 Mr. Sirrmans: t-1r. Speaker, the Minister of Tourism a few minutes ago said, 11 Ah, negative. All you do is criticize. 11 ~1e11, Mr. Speaker, I am going to make a positive suggestion now, Mr. Speaker, a positive suggestion. vou see, Mr. Speaker. I have been having a look, Mr. Speaker. at this Term 29 about which we had such a fuss, and let us set the record straight an Term 29, Mr. Speaker.

Let us set the record straight because i'lhen it was raised by a government member sometime ago he did not bother to mention again, he did not bother to mention who it was that just about run us into the ground on Term 29 in the first place. He did not bother to mention that it was his great buddy, the Right Han. John G. Diefenbaker, who tried to run us into the ground on Term 29. He did not say that it was he who felt I>Je should get even less than we are getting, not more as has been suggested but less according to Mr. Diefenbaker in that day. He did not say that it was Mr. Oiefenbaker who split the P.C.

Party asunder back in 1957 - AN HON. IIEMBER: Started the United Newfoundland Party. MR. SIMMONS: Not 1957 but well just after that and started the United Newfoundland Party. He did not mention those things. But, Mr. Speaker, to the substance of the matter. This Term 29, Mr. Speaker, the financial term of our agreement where two nations - now let us be understood about this too, we did not go begging or screaming into the arms of Canada. We went screaming somewhat because only fifty point something or 51 per cent of us wanted to be part of Canada at the time. But it was not a one sided deal, Mr. Speaker.

There were as many on the Canadian side as I will show you from some documentation who wanted Ne1vfoundland to be a part of Canada as there were in Newfoundland who wanted to be a part of Canada. There were a lot of people in the then Canadian nation who had good reason to want Newfoundland to be part of the bargain, to be part of a new nation. So two nations came together, Mr. Speaker, and one of the tenns, the financial term, the now famous Term 29, the McNair Commission set up by the federal government found in somewhere around 1958 or 1959 having analyzed our ability here to provide public services,

June 1, 1978 Tape 3814 HR.

SlMMONS: water and sewer and the other services we need here, having analyzed our ability to provide them and having analyzed our ability to pay rs-2 for those, and this is the whole spirit of Term 29 you remember, having analyzed these two abilities, the ability to pay on the one hand, the reasonable taxation that we could levy here on the one hand and on the other hand the requirement for services, having analyzed these two the McNair Commission, and this is not a Newfoundland commission, this is a federal commission, came to the conclusion that there was a revenue deficiency, that there was a shortage of funds, there was a short fall.

In othere words we needed more services than we could pay for even if we lashed it out in terms of taxes to our people. There was a deficiency. rn that day in 1957, Mr. Speaker, in the 1957-1958 year the McNair Commission found that there was a revenue deficiency of just over $8 million, $8~102,000. Now to put it in other terms, Mr.

Speaker, what the commission finding was savinq is this~ that even if Newfoundland has to provide services, not equal to Canada or Ontario or B.C. but equal to the Maritime Provinces which we know have always been in terms of services, I think the minister will agree, in Atlantic Canada still behind say Ontario or B.C. Right? And it was in this context that the McNair Commission was talking. To provide services equal to the Maritime Provinces we could nat find the tax dollars even if we taxed as high as the highest province in Canada, the highest tax in Canada. \.Je would still be $8 million short in 1957.

Now, Mr. Speaker, let us be clear what that means. Did it say $8 million forever? No, Mr. Speaker. It took the expenditures for 1957-1958 and subtracted one from the other and said right now they need another $8 mill ian. Now rtha t happens, Mr. Speaker, if the value of the dollar changes? What happens then? lf $8 million in 1957 dollars is $8 million but in 1960 it is only $7 million or in 1970 it is only $2 million or $3 million, did the McNair Commission, were they so stunned as to think that somehow everything would take care of itself and that if you had $8 million in 1957 but only $3 million

June 1, 1978 Taoe 3814 IB-3 i·lR. S H·ii·IDNS: or $4 million in 1970 that that v10uld be enough. How could $3 million effectively in 1970 do what $8 million was supposed to do in 1957? Well we all know the answer to that. It cannot. So, Mr. Speaker, we have got to look, and I was disappointed because I put this question to the Premier about

June 1, 1978, Tape 3815, Page 1 -- apb MR. SHL'10NS: a couple of weeks ago here in this House. ~1'e have to look again at term 29 and we have to say, What was the spirit of it? What was the spirit of the commission finding? What was the spirit of the McNair Commission finding? And the spirit was clearly this - it can be nothing else - the spirit was this, ~~.

Speaker, in simple blunt terrns,'We have as a nation to continue to help Newfoundland to meet the difference between what they can afford to raise in taxes on the one hand and the cost of providing services equal to those in the Maritime Provinces on the other. That was the spirit of it, Mr. Speaker. At that time that spirit translated into $8 million. The spirit of the McNair report was to see to it that the difference was paid by the nation in a transfer payment, if you like. That was the spirit. Now here we are, Mr.

Speaker, in 1978 and of course we all know - if you remember, those listening to my voice, if you will just remember your salary in 1958 or 1959. I remember mine. I was teaching in St. Anthony. I was a principal, no less. A great, big two-room school. Principal of a two-room school. Not only was I getting a teacher's salary, I was also getting what they called a principal's bonus, fifty dollars a year for each classroom under your jurisdiction. You were allowed to count your own for that. AN HON. MEMBER: On hundred dollars? MR.

SIMMONS: A hundred dollars a year for being principal that was, plus the title of course. And it worked out, Mr. Speaker, to $187 per month before taxes - $187 per month is what I was getting in 1959. I suppose, Mr. Speaker, in terms of what I could buy it is probably worth $600 today, $500 or $600 today in twenty years since just about.

June 1, 1978, Tape 3815, Page 2 -- apb HR. SUlHONS: This $8 million, Hr. Speaker, if it required $8 million in 1959, of course, it requires a lot more today. Because you see, Mr. Speaker, I am told that the 1957 or 1958 dollar - get this, Mr. Speaker, the 1957 or 1958 dollar worth a dollar in 1957 is worth twenty-three ce;nt~ today. Twenty-three cents today, not a quarter of what it was worth in 1957 or 1958, not a quarter. So the $8 million of 1957 or 1958 or 1959 with McNair's Commission report, is worth perhaps $2 million or so today. AN HON. MEHBER: Three. HR.

SIHHONS: No, what I meant is that if you had that - no, I see what the minister is saying, but I am just going in the other direction. All right? Put it this way - the minister is one step ahead of me on translating it in the other direction, but what I am saying to him is that the $8 million could only buy what two or three would have bought in 19 - I am sorry - the $8 million, 1957 dollars, would only buy $2 ~illion or $3 million worth today. That is what I am really saying. Okay? And to buy $8 million worth today you would need something of the order of $35 million, just over four time as much.

That is the point I am making. The $8 million of 1957 if you had it today could only buy really, $2 million or $3 million worth. If you extrapolate that, or if you translate it means that the if the commission meant in 1957 to give us $8 million I am saying, and the minister is helping me say it, I am saying that today that should translate into something around $35 million. How do we argue that, Mr. Speaker? We argue it simply - and I am not going to go through the entire argument, but just to state the spirit of it - we argue it, Mr.

Speaker, by saying clearly and simply that the spirit of the McNair Commission findings

June 1, 1978, Tape 3815, Page 3 -- apb MR. SIHHONS: was to allow us to keep pace, to allow us to keep pace with services in the Maritime Provinces in two ways: As much as possible by our tax rate, which is the highest in Canada, and then to do the rest by a makeup payment from Ottawa. I say, Mr. Speaker, that is the government would only begin negotiating this one with Ottawa in serious terms - and I was disappointed when I asked the Premier about a month ago about this subject that nothing is really in the works on it, or that was the impression I got from him. The revenue deficiency now is so serious, Mr.

Speaker, that Ottawa would have to jack up the payment by something over four times the amount. ~tr. Speaker, I have here

June 1, 19i3 Tape :io. 3816 Jel - 1 !-!R. SUJ}f{)NS: a letter written back in 1959 by a ~!r. Kerstead ~ho ~as a professor of political economy at the University of Toronto. He said, Hr. Speaker, - AU HON. HEMBER: (Inaudible). H.f\. S L""Gi10NS: Hay have been. He ~as a professor. I will get his initials now. B.S. are his initials. B.S. Kerftead written in 1959, ar. Speaker, on the subject of Term 29 and to my knowledge he is not a ~ew~oundlander. I do not know that he is or is not but he is at the University of Toronto at this time and he is WTiting about Term 29.

I think it is important to establish that he is probably not a Newfoundlander because he is not just peddling our narrow viewpoint on this. He is putting forth what I believe is to be a sound economic argument and he is talking about TerQ 29, :--lr. Speaker. I think perhaps, )lr. Speaker, it might be helpful when I am through reading this or part of ittas I am required under rules to table it because it is something that all members should have a second loa k at. It is a letter from a Professor B.S. Kerstead which I will table in a fe~ minutes and it was written back in 1959.

It says in part, "Term 29 of the Terms of Union between NeYioundland and canada is part of a contract into which both contracting parties entered in 1949. At that time the Canadian Government was gravely disturbed over the economic and political instability of Newfoundland and about the possibility of Newfoundland becoming the possession of the United States. Union was earnestly desired by Canada but was rather unpopular in Newfoundland. Only the leadership of Mr. Smallwood was able to prevail upon the opposition of the business interest of St.

John's. \Ihen the Newfoundland negotiators came to Ottawa both they and their Canadian counterparts had no knowledge of what ittwould cost to set up public service in Newfoundland comp.:t.rable to the tolerable minimum of such services else~here in North America. 3ecause of its strange history of neglect Newfoundland at the time of union possessed very few public services and those of a primative sort. Thus :iewfoundland

June 1, 1978 Tape i-io. 3816 refused to enter into union with Canada unless provision was made after an experimental or a transitional period for a considered revision of the financial terms of union. Hence Term 29 ~as included in the act of union at the insistence of the Newfoundland delegation.u Now, ~r. Speaker, I quoted that first of all because I think it puts in perspective a comment I was making earlier that the impression that is abroad lately that somehow we were a bunch of beggars taken in by an unwilling Canada. It is not exactly the scenario that was in place at the time at all. In fact, ~!r.

Speaker, there were a number of people who saw good argument, good strategic arguments at the time, good political argument to have Newfoundland as a part of the Canadian nation. And so in that spirit, Mr. Speaker, they were willing to agree to Term 29 which provided for that so-called wake up money, that money which would provide the difference between what we could afford and what was required to give us services at least up to ~hat was then or is not operative in the Atlantic Provinces. I table the letter, Mr. Speaker, and I would suggest hen. members have a good look at it.

I would like to have a copy myself I say to the page when he gets around to it. I believe, Mr. Speaker, that the government ~ill want some positive suggestions about financial matters. I believe, Mr. Speaker, that Term 29 of the Terms of Union between two nations, Canada and Newfoundland, indeed that term contains a great opportunity for us if we will explore it properly, if we made it the subject of some meaningful and serious and ongoing negotiation, if we couple with it the finding of the M~~air Commission Report, a commission set up by I believe then Prime Hinister St.

Laurent and later acted on or procrastinated on by :1r. Diefenbaker. But a Mc.."lair Commission Report if 'We coupled that with the Term of Union we would find, !--tr. Speaker, that we have a very strong case for requiring the money to be paid in today's dollars and today's value and today's prices if you like rather than at 1957 or 1958 prices. I think it is a crucial issue,

June 1, 1973 'I'ape 3817 "!r. Speaker, and I cannot stress it too much. It alone would give us the extra $25 million or $28 million and that alone could make some difference i~ the - it would make a fair dent in our position to meet 'our committments to pay our bills. ~!r. Speaker, these are some of my ccmcerns about the financial position. I want to talk for a few minutes about another subject r.hat is I 'Je.lie•Je is crucial to our development and that is the fishery. The fisher'.' of this Pro•.'"ince, •:r.

Speaker, much has been said about it it is di:ficult to aviod getting caug~:t up in the rhetori and to be too rosy in your descriptions in your pontifications about it. But the fact of the matter is, ~!r. Speaker, that I happen to believe that the fisl:er::' holds r:1ore promise than any of the other resource possibilites potential we have. Ho!.ds r:1are possibility for a number of reasons and I am not advocating that we abandon the others they have thei~ place and in time I or other speWters h~re will come to them. But Mr.

Speaker, the fisher!es resource especially because of the 200 mile limit and it did two things it did the obvious thing of giving us access to more fish but it also did somthing psychologically - I think the ~Unister of Fisheries agree with it as it did the advent of the 200 mile limit ~as a great boom psychologically for us it changed attitudes and I re-said it to the House before about ny teaching days when you tall: to students and you talk to teac!tefs and the_attitude aame through clearly t~at there was something despeccable something 3econd class about being in the fishlnt, business.

Hell that is c.hanginr, c!1angin~ ver; dranatically, ps;rcholorically it :!.;; very rUfferent nm1 the whole business of the fishery is very different and people look to careers in the fishing industry. ~10'..;, Hr. SpeB.ker, a couple of central :acts that ~.;e need to underline about the fishery. ;-Jueber

:m. sr:r;:~o:rs: one; fish you see, ;1r, Speaker, fish is the only source of protein - 't.;e are talking about the needs of a hungry ~.:orld, 1ve are talking about scarce food reso!.lrces expensive fooQ resources. Fish, lfr, Speaker, is the only source of protein you do not have to feed. The only source of protein you do not have to feed, it is there all you have to do is catch it conserve it of course. Do not sacrifice it. Do not plunger the fishery. r.iven a proper conservation, r.~na~e~~nt an?roach all you have to do is catch. It is the only source of protein that you do not have to feed. I am told, Pr.

Speaker, that Britian for example is short of ~hite fish stocks codfish for example. ~ere is a great opportunity there for exports from ,;e•;.;foundland. I am told though that !3ritian is not -.taiting for Newfoundland to act or for Canada to act I am told that the tremendous shortage of white fish stocks is being made up in part and let us be clear the short3ge came about largely because of the implications for Britian and C~rmany for example of the 2.00 mile limit.

And that shortage which they now have that short fall is being made up in part by a new supply from Argentina suprly of hake from Argentina and because of the codfish shortage and because they cannot get the cod!ish they want from us. Because we have not developed our markets over there. ..,,, - I have come quickly to the subject of marketing, }lr. Speaker, because I have a feeling that tr.Ost of the other factors involved in the success of fishery are going to in time take care of themselves.

That is not to say we should not give attention to them or do things to hasten their development but I believe the crucial aspect of the fishery and whether it survtves as a successful resource based enter?rise or continues to be an industry that we apologjze for over the years. W~ether it is the former or the latter will depend on how well we establish new markets. The United States market h;-,s always been hefty mind you, large in volume but always a bit uncertain, always the question of new terms al;;ays the

June 1, 1978 Tape 3818 EC - 1 HR, S IHMONS: question of to ~hat degree the United States and particularly now the could begin to meet its own semi-finished requirement without looking to Canada and to Newfoundland in particular for it. So there is a need to look to the market of Europe. And I am concerned on this angle very much in this way. I am told by the British people that they are developing the purchase of hake from Argentina. I have been assured by them that that is only a short term thing.

They are only doing it until the codfish shortage is made up by some other nation, preferably Canada - possibly Canada. But what happens, Mr.

Speaker -let me raise the question - what happens if we are so long putting our house in order on marketing in Europe that the arrangement between Britain and Argentina becomes fairly permanent and that the hake, which I am told is an inferior fish - and I am not in the position to discuss this - but I am told is an inferior fish to the codfish and which is only going to be marketed for certain of what I will call the lesser products, the fish stick type products,where apparently, all they are interested in is a white fish and they are not particularly interested whether it is cod or not. What happens. Mr.

Speaker, if ~hat is to be a temporary arrangement bet~een Britain and Argentina becomes a fairly comfortable and successful and perhaps lucrative long term arrangement? What happens if ~e allow the Argentine supply to supplant the Canadian supply? -what could be the Canadian supply, the Newfoundland supply. t.Jhat happens if we find that the market we ~ere sure is there, is there, but it is being

June 1, 1978 Tape 3818 EC - 2 MR. SIHMONS: used by somebody else who can deliver a cheaper, albeit inferior product? And that is why I say, Mr. Speaker, thac marketing is imporcanc and we do not have a loc of cime to get on with it. I have mentioned white fish and codfish. There is a great market in Europe, I am told, for herring. I a~ told, Mr. Speaker, that the Europeans are not particularly happy with the quality of herring they are getting from us at this particular time. AN HON. MEMBER: The Europeans - Yes, the British - I ac sorry - the British in particular I am talking about, A!I HON.

HEUBER: (Inaudible) MR. SUL'IONS: Yes, I am talking about the British. I am quoting directly from a note I made after talking to a representative of the Findus group in England - Findus - F-i-n-d-u-s, I believe - and he particularly said that they were not at all happy - MR. PECKFORD: The Scandinavians - }1R. SH!MONS: Yes, well, the quote that I made when I talked - I am not sure, I say to the Minister from Green Bay, because there are obviously exceptions - you know, and he and I know that - MR. WHITE: Six million pounds from my - ~'!R.

SIMMONS: He and I know that operation in Little Bay Islands and, you know, it is a meticulous and well run operation. But I was talking generally and

·>'nL. J P!l.ELI~'!NAI'.Y \1!FniTED TRA:'~sr.rnrT !lOUSE OF ASSI'"ELY 2:00 p.c. - 11:00 p.3. 'i'!n~RSD,'\Y, JT!PF l, 1!17~ ~:o. 7F.

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·::or our products. Int.leet!, as r snLi !~<;>fore, it is t:h<: :~ 0 .S. r:nr:~et ".;y at least t:C.irty-five percent over the ne:~t five; ::nars. :y :'tat : :-.s;:m ·.:e. n-<> 1topb.g to ':o.ve at least r::::irty-fivc rerc~nt n:: :o ;:;o.:Ln:;:; to t""\e ~~ .:::. r:arLet. ··r. Spea':.er, t''e joint ver:.ture cor..cepts :1ave :~na~t e:tere is n certain :tnou~t of opposition tr. t~.,at concent in t!-:.c ::ut joir.,t •.;entcrcs ~re t'-·c ;,cccr:t~cl tJ.....inf" :!.n t~~is "'rovi~ce: •.:e ::r1o·." t~·ey 8640

June l. 1978 Tape JB39 GII-1 HR. \{. CARTER: of that ~ompany that, we believe, will allay the fears of certain people with respect to foreign take-over and foreign investment. Mr. Speaker, when you realize ~he restrictions that are being placed on that ~ompany Oy both governments, federal and provincial, it is difficult to reconcile some of the objections that have been raised to it by people, and some people in prominent places. For example, that company before it can operate a plant will have to apply to the ~inister of Fisheries in Newfoundland for a licence to operate.

We issue the licence to operate the plants, and that licence, of course, can be withheld or revoked if. the terms and conditions under which it has been issued are not being adhered to by the company. The company is unable to operate one ship - one ship - without first of all obtaining a licence for its operations from the federal government and. again, that licence can be withheld or, if the terms and conditions under which it has been issued are not followed, then the minister has the authority to revoke that licence.

So, if the company does not live up to its expectations or the conditions under which it was granted permission to operate under the Foreign Investment Review Agency, well. they can be actually put out of business by either of the two governments, provincial or federal government. So, certainly it would not be in their interest to start playing games with the Newfoundland fishermen or the newfoundland people or with the province or with the federal government. It ~ertainly would not make sense. The proposal does have some very worthwhile benfits as far as we are concerned for the province.

It will brin~ with it, apart from the catching capability, three freezer trawlers, worth I suppose if you were to get them built today anywhere from $10-15 oillion each, three wetfish trawlers, costing I suppose anywhere from SS-7 ~illion and other expertise in the harvesting 8641

June l, 1978 Tape 3839 GP.-2 and processing sectors of the industry. It will provide jobs for 450 people directly in the processing sector, not to mention the 60 or 80 people that will be employed on the ships as crewmen and, of course, in tioe officers and so on to serve on the ship. It wil