VOL. 3 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. -6:00p.m. Thursday, May 7, 1981 NO, 35 r.·

May 7, 1981 Tape 1334 EC - 1 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to welcome the Premier back, Mr. Speaker, and in the process, direct this question. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. FLIGHT: In the process, Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct this question to the Premier.

Would the Premier inform the House what action he plans to take in view of the --latest initiative taken by the Prime Minister of Canada whereby the resolution of the offshore ownership be set aside and that a joint provincial-federal agreement be reached for the purpose of future offshore development and production, under which agreement,for the purpose of revenue sharing and control, the resource will be treated the same as if that resource were located on land? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, last night and this morning I have been going over the comments made by the Prime Minister on a visit to our Province, some of the statements that he made on television and some of the statements he made before a meeting that he addressed down here. I have not had the benefit of going through these in detail; I have the paper, the written statements now from the television station and his recorded speech to the group which was recorded and now have it all typed up to see exactly what the Prime Minister said. 3 7 31

May 7, 1981 Tape 1334 EC - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: I guess my initial reaction would be it is unfortunate that the Canadian federal government apparently changes its position on issues so important to Newfoundland and to Nova Scotia and to British Columbia as this is, that he chooses to do it this way rather than at the discussion table during the Constitution discussions all last year and during the discussions that Nova Scotia has hela with the Canadian federal government. That is numlier one. I mean, he should deal with the governments on thes.e matters.

Secondly, it is not ~lear in my own mind,because I have not gone through the statements in detail, wfiether in fact the impression that is left in the minds of a lot of people is really valid,that there has been a change in the Canadian Government's position on the offshore. If, in fact, however, there is a change in the way the Canadian federal government wishes to deal with the whole question of the offshore, then we have said repeatedly, Mr. Speaker, that we are willing to sit down and discuss that. We have discussed it all last year. Nova Scotia discussed it after the constitutional discussions were over.

We are willing to sit down today, this evening, 3732 •"""'

May 7, 1981 Tape No. 1335 SD - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: sit down today, this evening, tomorrow morning to pursue what seems on the surface to be some change in the Canadian government's position. We have never taken the position that we should not sit down and discuss these matters. Whether in fact there is an appreciable, substantive change in the way the Canadian government wants to proceed on the whole question of the offshore jurisdiction and the dispute that is there remains to be seen.

For our part as a government,we are ready to sit down at any time and discuss these matters with the Prime Minister or his designates to see whether in fact there is that kind of appreciable change which seems to be in the minds of some Newfoundlanders. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. FLIGHT: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Hear, hear. Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary, the hon. member for Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the Premier would confirm that in staking out the provincial ground in the first instance, his original demand was that the offshore be treated the same as if the resource were located on land, treated the same as forests or mines. Those were his words verbatim and it is documented thatthat is what he wanted, and that is what the Prime Minister had offered. Now it would seem to me, Mr. Premier, that the Prime Minister has held out a possibility of breaking this stalemate, he is interested in breaking the stalemate.

What I want the Premier to tell me if he will now initiate-because I think the ball is now in his court- will he initiate a meeting whereby he can discuss the various ini.t i var ious proposals outlined by the Prime Minister with regard to break­ ing th.e stalemate and giving Newfoundland what they want, the offshore in the sense that it were situated on land, that the Premier originally requested? 3733 ..... ,.

May 7, 1981 Tape No. 1335 SD - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, unfortunately the information that backs up the question that the hon. member asks is not asclear as the hon. member makes it seem.

First of all, as I have said, and I have gone on record already in the last few minutes, that I am willing to sit down and discuss what seems to be, what superficially seems to be-and perhaps substantively, I do not know- a new initiative and a change of direction by the Canadian federal government as espoused by its leader, the Prime Minister ., in Newfoundland over the last number of days.we are willing to do it immediately, just suspend the House and stop everything and sit down and discuss what seems to be a change. No problem there at all. That is number one, Mr. Speaker.

Number two, when the member for Windsor - Buchans (Mr. Flight) says that what the Province has been saying is that we want the offshore oil and gas resources to be treated the same as if they were on land, I hope the hon. member knows what h.e means by that because there are other qualifications in the Prime Minister's statements which talk about 'until you are a ' have'province' then it is no longer treated as if they were on land.

I hope the hon. member understands its effect upon the fishery, T.he rate of development, the role of Petro-Canada, the role of the Newfoundland and Labrador Petroleum Corporation are all facets of the issue which are not solved by saying that it be treated the same as on land until you are a 'have' province, which must be dealt with concomitantly of a legal one. MR. FLIGHT: with any other kind of agreement outside MR. SPEAKER: Windsor - Buchans. MR . R. MOORES: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary, the hon. member for He is getting away with his junk. 3734

May 7, 1981 Tape No. 1335 SD - 3 MR. FLIGHT: Mr . Speaker, would the Premier agree-now the Prime Minister went out of his way, not at the meeting but in front of all Canadians 1 I suppose,because some of the progranune was carried nationally 1 and certainly for all of Newfoundland, to talk about the revenue sharing 3735 """~"'" ~--

May 7, 1981 Tape No. 1336 EL - 1 MR. FLIGHT: split the same as if it were located on land and he said, Mr. Speaker, th~t today in Alberta 45 per cent of the revenue goes to the government of Alberta, 45 per cent. And the hundred per cent we are talking about is that 45 per cent. We would get 100 per cent of the 45 per cent. so, in other words, what he was saying was that the resouce would be treated the same as if it were on land. In other words, the same for revenue shar­ ing purposes as the resource is treated in Alberta. Now,I would want to know if the Premier would confirm that that is his

interpretation of what the Prime Minister said~ MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: First of all, I am very,very happy that the Prime Minister has clarified his statements at Mem­ orial University where he talked about 100 per cent of the revenue and people all over the Province during that time were saying 100 per cent of all the revenues. Now he has come back to the pesition that we had taken after his speech at Memorial and said, '100 per cent of what is available to a Province', which is really 40 or 45 per cent. So, I am happy to see that the Prime Minister has clarified that.

Secondly,let me go on to say, see­ ing the han. member for Windsor-Buchans (G. Flight) wants to get into detail,that the Prime Minister did not answer that question when he talked about comparing it with Alberta. App­ arently the member for Windsor-Buchans does not realize that the offshore Newfoundland under federal law,proposed and in existence,is different than oil and gas on land in Alberta. Is the han. member for Windsor-Buchans aware that the Canadian Federal Government is treating, under law, under legislation, under regulations,the frontier areas differently than they are 3736 .~· .

May 7, 1981 Tape No. 1336 EL - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: treating Alberta? So it is not apples and apples, it is apples and oranges. So when asked the question, and I have it here before me on page four of the written transcript, about Petro-Canada's involvement, the Prime Minister's response came back and dealt with Alberta and the 45 per cent. The unfortunate part about it was that his answer is not applicable in this case because the offshore, under his own government's law, under his own government's regulations, is being treated differently today in existing law than Alberta's oil and gas is being treated.

So therefore the answer - MR. LUSH: smart aleck. · PREMIER PECKFORD: SOME ijON. lmMBERS : MR. SPEAKER (Simms): You are being arrogant and a No, no. Mr. Speaker - Oh, oh! Order, please! PREMIER PECl<FORD: I am very sorry, Mr. Speaker, I am sorry that the member for Terra Nova (T. Lush) takes that as being smart-alecky. I am sorry. The legislation is that Petro-Canada's interest would be increased from 25 to 43 per cent on frontier areas, not in Alberta. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Lapoile. MR. NEARY: I yield for a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the memner for Windsor-Buchans. 3737

May 7, 1981 Tape No. 1337 ow - 1 MR. G. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, I will simply say to the Premier that his

interpretation of what the Prime Minister is saying and other people's interpreta­ tion is not the same, it cannot be reconciled. So now I would ask a very simple question: will the Premier, for the purpose of breaking the stalemate,give the House a commitment that he will take the initiative and request a meet i ng with Mr. Trudeau and his federal counterparts to see if whether or not an agre ement, under the condi- tions laid out by the Prime Minister,can be reached, yes or no. MR. SPEAKER (SIMHS): The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER PECKFORD: I am prepared to sit down with the Prime Minister of Canada - or any members of the government are - to sit down with the Government of Canada tomorrow morning to see whether, in fact, what the Prime Minister has been saying verbally will translate into a change in position by that government so that we can get some kind of an agreement on the offshore as quickly as possible. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. S. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. S. NEARY: SOME RON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. The han. member for LaPoile. Mr. Speaker, my question is - Oh, oh! Order, please!

Order, please! The hon. member for LaPoile. Mr. Speaker, my question is for the hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! 3738

May 7, 1981 Tape No. 1337 DW - 2 MR. SPEAKER "( Simms): Order, please~ Order, please! The hen. member for LaPoile. MR. s . NEARY: I, too, would like to welcome the Premier back and I admire his beautiful colour today. But the problems are still here: even though the Premie .r may have been awa~ the problems are still with us. And one of the big problems in Newfoundland today in certa .i.n coi!Uauni ties, certain municipalities is the implementation of the propert y tax. !\1"'" would the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs.

New­ hook) tell the House how many munici pal ities are having assessments done at the present time with a view to imple­ menting the property taxes? MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Municipal Affairs. MRS. NEWHOOK: Mr. Speake r , we have requests for assessments in e x cess of sixty for this year, sixty-odd. And I really cannot say just how many of these will be assessed this year or how long it will take, but we are working onthose Ji xty-odd requests. MR. S. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: for LaPoile. MR. S. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

A supplementary, the hon. member Out of the sixty requests, and a number are going ahead at the present time, I presume, a number of municipalities are actually in the process of doing the assessment on the property, would the hon. minister tell the House how many violent objections have come in to the department where residents of municipalit~es are violently objecting to the property tax and the way it is being forced on them, the way it is being implemented, the undemocratic manner in which the property tax is being implemented? MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Municipal Affairs. 3739

May 7, 1981 Tape No. 1337 ow - 3 MRS. NElffiOOi<: Mr . Speaker, we have not had any at all, not one violent objection . The town of Bonavista has expressed their concern and what they are asking for is more information on it. And we have just completed a circular on property tax which will be mailed to every householder in Bona vista. MR. S. NEARY: A supplementary, ~tr. Speaker. 37 40 .:.

May 7,1981 MR.SPEAKER (Simms) : member for LaPoile. Tape No. 1338 AH-1 A supplementary. The han. MR.NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the han. minister raised the problems that have developed in the old and historic town of Bonavista.

Would the han. minister tell the House why she has refused to acceed to the wishes of a committee that wished to meet with the minister in Bonavista, why she refused - and the information communicated through the member for the district- why she ha"' refuseC. so far to go down to Bonavista and sit down with the committee or with the people or hold a public meeting to explain the matter of the property tax to the people in that town? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs. MRS NEWHOOK: Mr. Speaker, the request for a meeting in Bonavista carne to my department and was for officials to go down.

My officials have visited Bonavista and there was a meeting and I think about possibly 100 people attended. So we feel now that the distribution of this circular will get into every household in Bonavista and this is a better way to get the information across. MR.NEARY: A supplementary. SOME HON.MEMBERS: MR.SPEAKER: hon. member for LaPoile. MR.NEARY: Hear, hear: A final supplementary.

The Does the hon. minister realize that the government is sitting on a powder keg in Bonavista, that the implementation of the property tax in that comrnunity,without allowing the people to vote whether or not they wish to have the property tax and how much it should be, the non-democratic way in which it is being implemented, is the minister aware that she is sitting on a powder keg 3741 {.

May 7,1981 Tape No. 1338 AH-2 MR. NEARY: as far as Bonavista is concerned? And that the people did look forward to the minister corning out. It was not the officials that they wanted. They wanted the member and the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Newhook) to attend the meeting in that community. Will the minister indicate whether she will be going to Bonavista in the very near furture to discuss this matter before it get out of hand? MR.SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs. MRS NEWHOOK: Mr.

Speaker, I visit as many communities as I can and no doubt i will be in Bonavista, but I would like to wait to see the results of the circular that we are forwarding and I do feel that when they get the right information and when they are all aware of the information contained in that circular that there will be no more problems in Bonavista. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: A final supplementary. MR. SPEAKER A final,final supplementary. The hon. member for Lapoile. MR.

NEARY: Would the minister inform the House whether or not information is included in that circular to give the residents of Bonavista and the other communities that the property tax is being forced on, will they be given the right to decide for themselves and not have the property tax hoisted on them from St. John's, will they be given the right to a secret ballot to vote whether or not they wish to have the property tax? ---­ MR. SPEAKER: Affairs. MRS. NEWHOOK: The hon. Minister of Municipal Mr.Speaker , under our legislation, the new Municipalities Act, it is mandatory that there be 3742

May 7, .19_81, Tape 1339., Page .l -- apb MRS. NEWHOOK: property tax i.f the. town is serviced SQ per cent wit~ water and sewer or water or sewer. And the resi.dents· of Bona vista, now, are asking for an expansion of their water servi.ces and what we have said to them is that it i.s mandatory · that there be property tax i.f you wish . a continuation or an expansion of these services to your community .. MR. THOMS: Mr. Speak.er .. MR. SPEAKER(Si.rnrns}: The hon. the member for Grand Bank. MR. THOMS: A supplementary ·, Mr. Speaker, if I may, to the hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs(Mrs. Newhook}.

I can assure the mini.s:ter that if Bonavista is not a powder keg, then Frenchman~s Cove in the district of Grand Bank is. Because you are going to have troubles, and I give you fair warning to that, But there was water put into the community of Frenchrnan~s Cove, there are eighty-seven homeowners,thi.rty-seven of them connected to the water. There are fifty homes in the community of Frenchman's Cove some of whi.ch can not afford to put t~e service .s in to receive the water even if they wanted to, they just do not have the money •. They are now being charged ~ MR. SPEAKER: Order, please .! Order, please.!

The hen. member must ask his question. MR. THOMS: I will get to the question. They are now being charged $120 a year, which is - what? - three times what I am being charged in St. John's and my question to the minister is this, is there any way that these people can get relief from this tremendous burden to them? The community council simply says, 'Look, we are -being forced into charging you $120 a year by the Department of Municipal Affairs'. But is there any way 3743

May 7, 1981, Tape 1339, Page 2 -- apb M.R. THOMS: that these people can get relief from this overtaxing burden? MR . SPEAKER(Simms): The hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs. MRS. NEWHOOK: Mr. Speaker, I am looking into the problem in Frenchman's Cove. I do not think it is quite as serious as my hon. colleauge there has pointed out . But it is a practice that if the council provides water services or sewer services to a community and it brings it to the property line of a householder, then that householder then is deemed to be available to be hooked up to the service.

And if the cost· for service has been put across the property, then that owner is supposed to pay for the services regardless of whether he feels he should hook onto it or not. And in the cases where people cannot afford to hook on to the services, and if these are welfare recipients, then the Department of Social Services will p~y fOr them to be hooked on 3744 ....

May 7, 1981 Tape No. 1340 NM - 1 MRS . NEWHOOK: to it. But I am looking into that problem in Frenchmen's cove just to see how serious it is. MR. NEARY: How about the other problems? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. member for Port au Port . MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Municipal Affairs as well.

The waste disposal committees across the Province have been transferred from the Department of the Environment to the minister's department, and I understand- well 1 the question I have for the minister is I understand that the waste disposal committees that now exist will remain in existence, but has the programme been abolished? Will new waste disp gsa l -committees be p ut in place in are01s •·•here t here are no.e_e'; --MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs. + MRS . NEWHOOK: Mr.

Speaker, this is the first year that Municipal Affairs will have full control over waste disposal all across the Province for incorporated and un- incorporated areas. And right now we are working on a new policy and it is not completed yet but as soon as it is I can surely say to the member that I will a~t him with regard to that policy. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: A s~pplementary, Mr. Speaker. The minister says it is a new policy and she cannot give me the answer.

But I have run into the experience whereby an un- (; incorporated community has applied for a waste disposal site and has been told that they cannot have one because the programme 3745

May 7, 1981 Tape No. 1340 NM - 2 MR. HODDER: is abolished. Now I would ask the minister if she can tell me - I would ask again if she can tell me whether a community must be incorporated into a local service district in order to get a waste disposal service? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs. MRS . NEWHOOK : Mr. Speaker, not if there is already a service area, The services that are there will be continued the same as is. MR. ·HODDER: What about the new ones? MRS.

NEWHOOK: With the new ones we have not formulated the policy yet, it is not completed so I cannot give you all the details on it. But I do not see any serious problems for unincorpoated areas. Certainly that service will be available to them. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please~ If I may, I notice some people leaving from the galleries ~nd I did not get an oppo~tunity earlier to welcome to the galleries. I do not usually do it during Question Period, but I will do it now because we do have some special guests in attendance.

We have with us today twelve special education students and two teachers from Grand Prairie, Alberta; and forty students and three teachers from Fort Langley Junior Secondary School in British Columbia. We hope that they enjoy their visit with us today. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) 1 And the question I have for the Minister of Education,being in charge of school tax authorities, under the Department of Municipal Affairs 3746

May 7, 1981 Tape 1341 EC - 1 MR. HISCOCK: agricultural land is not taxed. Now that the Minister of Educatio~ (Ms Verge), in charge of School Tax Authorities ·has more tax authorities being set up in this Province and are going throughout the Province assessing not onl y businesses and private homes but they are also assessing agricultural land. And particularly on the West Coast, this is becoming an extremely grave problem because its taxes go up to $2,000 or $3,000.

The community councils or the towns in those parts of our Province are not taxing them at all, but here we have another department in government as a contradiction because this - MR. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER (Simms ) : On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Order, please! Order, please! The hon. the President of the Council on a point of order. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, the purpose of the Question Period, again, is to ask questions and not to make speeches. I think the hon. gentleman was - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR . SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.

MARSHALL: - giving certain introductory remarks but they have now come into the area of a speech. MR . SPEAKER: There is a legitimate point of order. The hon. member is aware of that as well . SOME'HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! There is a legitimate point of order and,obviously, there are other members who wish to ask questions so I would ask members to keep their

preambles as brief as they can. I would ask the hon. member to direct his question. MR. HISCOCK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question . to the Minister of Education (Ms Verge) is, now that this is becoming 3747

May 7, 1981 MR. HISCOCK: of agricultural land Tape 1341 EC - 2 a serious problem in the Province being taxed by the School Tax Authority, will the Minister of Education (Ms Verge), who is in charge of that, exercise her authority and do away with this tax as Municipal Affairs had, by not taxing it in the first place? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MS VERGE: The hon. the Minister of Education. Mr. Speaker, most school tax authorities at the moment impose simply a poll tax.

There are some authorities, those in areas where property assessments have been carried out - and my own area of Corner Brook is one of them- have imposed,based on property assessments, school taxes on farms. There is a provision which is being used by the Corner Brook School Tax Authority, to give one example, whereby the authority requests of the Minister of Education an exemption or a partial exemption for agricultural land because of the special nature of farm land. As I say, that provision has been used.

We are sensitive to the special aspects of farm land and, you know, I can say that this really has not been a problem so far. Most of the farming areas of th~ Province -Cormack, Pasadena area, Codroy Valley - are not within school tax authorities which impose any tax on that farm land. MR. HISCOCK: MR. SPEAKER: member for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. A supplementary, the hon. the As the minister informed this House, with regard to her own riding there is a special provision. I do not see why there should be a special provision just for one area of the Province.

Will the Minister of Education ensure that since Municipal Affairs is not all owed to tax agricultural land, that she will instruct ne~1 tax authorities 1 as well as the ones alr eady in existence, th!t they are not allowed, or will not be allowed to charge a tax on those lands? 3748

May 7, 1981 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MRS. VERGE: Tape No. 1342 EL - 1 The hon. the 1-iinister of Education. Mr. Speaker, I did not say, nor is it the case , that there is any special arrangement for the Corner Brook area. I merely gave one example of an authority which has requested of the Minister of Education an exemption or partial exemption for farm land where assessments have been carried out and where there is a commercial tax. Now, most authorities ormany authorities do not have a commercial tax, they simply have a poll tax 1 so the issue does not arise. MR. SPEAKER: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: MR. LUSH: The hon. the Depu~y House Leader. Oh, oh! That could be considered partisan, The hon. the member for Terra Nova. Mr. Speaker, when my colleagues are through with their chuckles here, I have a question for the Minister of Education. Insomuch as the one of the prime responsibilities of the minister must be look after the welfare and the interests of teachers, I wonder if the minister is aware of the fact that her government unilaterall y interferred with the teachers' collective bargaining act within the last twelve to fifteen months ? MR. SPEAKER: MR.

FLIGHT: The hon. the Minister of Education. A good question. Now let us have a short answer. A short question, a short answer. MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, I am really not sure what the member for Terra Nova (T. Lush) is alluding to. One of the issues which is outstanding in the present dispute be­ tween government, the Federation of School Boards and the New­ foundland Teachers' Association has to do with co-ordinating 3749

May 7, 1981 Tape No. 1342 EL - 2 MS. VERGE: principals and I suspect that what he is getting at. The position of co-ordinating princ­ ipal was introduced in a different era in education in the Province after reorganization,and in recent years it has been generally acknowledged in most areas of the Province that the functions which co-ordinating principals orginally had were no longer needed because of the changes that had occured in the years since.

Over the past couple of years, with recommendations that came to us,and after and long with dis­ cussions with the Newfoundland ~eachers' Association executive, it was decided that the position would be phased out at the end of the term of the collective agreement which is still outstanding,which was the end of August, 1980. Now, 'there were problems which developed after that. The Newfoundland Teachers' Association expressed displeasure after the event and the matter was re­ ferred to an arbitration board.

The arbitration board has ruled, has given a decision,indicating that there has to be some compensation paid to the people affected. The amount of compensation is to be negotiated among the parties. Failing an agreement of the amount of compensation, the matter is to be referred back - SOME HON. MEMBER: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : erder, please! MS. VERGE: - to the arbitration board and I am satisfied that a fair resolution of 3750

May 7, 1981 Tape No. 1343 SD - 1 MS. VERGE: that a fair resolution of that issue will be accomplished. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Order, please! A final supplementary, the hon. member for Terra Nova. We have about thirty seconds left for a question and answer. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I can certainly ask the question, I only wish the minister could make her answers as precise and as much to the point as I can make the questions precise and to the point. MR. FLIGHT: Hear, hear. MR. LUSH: Mr.

Speaker, I will want to follow that point a little later,but on to a new poin~ In so much as that the strike vote takes a day and it looks like we are going to be faced with a teachers' strike, that is the word that is getting out, again in view of the fact that the minister is looking after the interest of the teachers and in so much as the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn),when there was a strike at the College of Trades and Technology, he signed a card supporting these workers - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.

LUSH: - can the minister indicate \V'hat she is doing to support the teachers? Would she indicate where her interests lie? ·-----MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The time for Oral Questions has expired. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. THOMS: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! A point of order has been raised by the hon. member for Grand Bank. MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, are we not permitted to give the minister opportunity to answer tne question, if 3751

May 7, 1981 MR. THOMS: the House? ----SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Tape No. 1343 SD - 2 she so desires, with the leave of By leave. Order, please! The Standing Orders are quite '-[ clear; / ~thirty thirty minutes are allowed for Question Period. The minutes have expired. Is there'leave? SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave. SOME HON. MEMBERS: No leave. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I have heard a 'no', there has not been leave granted. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! SOME HON. MEMBERS.: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! We have to proceed.

ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The ·hon. Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. ANDREWS : Mr. Speaker, in answer to a question yesterday by the hon. t he member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan). The number of applications for big game licences in~ere 36,444. There were 14,354 party applications and 7,736 individual applications. In total there were 13,085 licences issued consisting of 10,453 party licences, 2,632 individual licences. In total, there were 36,444 people who applied for big game licences in Newfoundland.

Of that, 23,538 people were successful and were issued licences last year. And there were 7,000 moose and caribou killed. 3752 .......

May 7,1981 Tape No. 1344 AH-1 SOME KON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh~ MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Orde:r;, please! MR. ANDREWS: I think this question was alluded to: The hunter safety test - in 1978, the first year of the hunter safety test,there were 35,630 who took and passed the test. In 1979, 6,200 - a large drop considering that 1978 was the first one, 6,294. In 1980, ~,842 and this year it is anticipated, because of the new prograrnm~ that 7,700 people will take the test --and that is an estimate- bringing the total since 1978 to 52,4~9 Newfoundlanders who will have taken the hunter safety course by this year.

That is not necessarily the number in the Province now who are eligible to apply for a license because some of these people are deceased or have left the Province. MR. SPEAKER: Any further answers to questions? MR. NEARY: A point of order Mr. Speaker. MR.SPEAKER: A point of order has been raised by the hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker,now that the Premier is back in his seat,I wonder if he would issue instructions to the ministers to answer some of the written questions that are on the Order Paper. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please~ There is no point of order. - - Further answers to questions. The hon.

Minister of Municipal Affairs. MRS.NEWIIOOK: Mr. Speaker,I have an answer to question number thirty-three presented by the hon. member for LaPoile. MR. FLIGHT: She is not allowed to read it. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! 3753

May 7,1981 Tape No . 1344 AH-2 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Further answers to questions? MRS NEWHOOK: It is requesting the number of trips I have made since I have been Minister of Municipal Affairs and --I pave not made any. SOME HON .MEMBERS: He_ar, hear: ORDERS OF THE DAY ~IR . SPEAKER: Order, please! Order 15, Bill No . 41. Seco nd - reading of a bill entitled, "An Act To Amend The Financial Administration Act 1 1973 . " I believe that the last day the debate was adjourned by the han . the han. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary), who has about twe nty minutes remain .ing. MR . NEP.RY: Mr .

Speaker. the last time I participated in this debate on this bill , we welcomed the reform as far as separating the responsibilit i es of the Comptroller o f the Treasury and the D_eputy Minister of Finance . And as I indicated at that time,this was a recommendation that was made by the Public P.ccounts Committee as the result of wrongdoing . 3754

May 7, 1981, Tape l345, Page J. --- apb. MR. NEARY: It is unfortunate, Mr. Speaker, that government were more or less forced to separate these two posit£ons because of wrongdoing. This bill would not have been before the House today if it were not for wrongdoing, the mismanagement and abuse of the taxpayers:• money. What brought it to a head was the improper spending of money in the Department of Public Works. And that is history now in this Province­ although the matter, I hope, is not closed, I hope the matter is still open.

I hope that the government is­ making every attempt to recover the literally hundreds of thousands of dollars that were defrauded in the Department of Public ~vorks. And the other two items that brought it to a head were the McConnell Advertising spending in this Province, and the Devine Advertising scandal involving a political poll that was paid for out of the public treasury, paid for out of punlic funds. These are the three major items, Mr. Speaker, that brought this reform before this House.

And, as I say, it is tragic, it is unfortunate that it took crimes against the public treasury, that it took a criminal action in order to bring about this reform. We would not have had this bill before the House today if it were not for the crimes that were committed.

And one individual, as we know, only one, out of all the skulduggery, the impropriety, the mismanagement, and abuse of public funds, of all the crimes that were committed only one individual, only one has paid the price, the others have walked away scot-free, and that one individual, I might say, has remained up to now very tight-lipped, very tight-lipped. 3755

May 7, 1981, Tape 1345, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: If that gentleman ·would only talk, Mr . Speaker, if he would only spill the beans, I am afraid that we would have more than one Cabinet minister get the shirt-tail run out of this House. I have been paying very strict attention to these matters and I must say that I am rather disappointed that there has been no follow-up by the Justice Department, no follo~~-up by the Minister of Finance or the Comptroller of the Treasury . Is is the responsibility, Mr. Speaker, it is the direct responsibility of the Comptroller of the Treasury to follow up on these matters.

The Minister of Finance(Dr. Collins) should follow up on these matters to see what civil action can be taken to recover the funds that were defrauded . We know abou t hundreds of thousands of dollars ·- I would suspect it is in the millions .nyself - of 3756

May 7, 1981 Tape No. 1346 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: money defrauded from the public ~reasury in connection with the Public Works spending. And prior to this, Mr. Speaker, prior to being caught and sentenced and probably still serving time - I am not sure if the gentleman is out yet or not - prior to that,the individual set up a trust company so he could put all his equipment and all his assets into a trust company, so he will come out of prison·- serve a year or so in prison over at Westmoreland, on the farm over there- . serve his sentence, come out and still be a wealthy man. I ask you, Mr. Speaker, is that fair?

Is it fair? Are the government afraid or are they scared to follow up on this matter to re­ cover the money? I think we are still within the statute of limitations as far as this matter is concerned. And I demand, Mr. Speaker, that further action be taken on this particular matter and that the government just not sit on it and just allow one individual to pay the price to society and then by serving a nine month or a one year jail sentence, and then that is all there is to it, ~he matter is over and done with it.

And I am sure there are ministers on the government side of the House breathing a great sigh of relie£ that they hope that the matter is closed, that the file is closed. Well I hope it is not closed. I hope Mr. Mahoney in his report will open it up again. I understand one of the major recommendations of the Mahoney Royal Commission is to take whatever action necessary to recover the funds, take whatever action is necessary. That is one of the major recamendations of the Mahoney Royal Commission that so far the government has refused to table in this House.

I do not know if they will give us a list of the recipients of the colour television sets or not. There is no reason for the delay in tabling this report. Editorial writers have already started writing editorials about it. The longer the government keeps 3757

May 7, 1981 Tape No. 1346 NM - 2 MR . NEARY: it under wraps, the more air of mystery will be created about it. MR. HISCOCK: It will probably appear with two or three pages gone . MR. NEARY: That is right 1 and I hope none of the pages will be removed as we saw in the last report that was brought into this House. But , Mr . Speaker, t he government should take immediate ac tion to recover the funds that rightfully belong to the Public Treasury and were defrauded from the Public Trea s ury , and I hope that because Mr. Mahoney identifie s certain ministers as being too friendly with Mr . A. B.

Walsh, and Walsh ' s companies that defrauded the Public Treasury, I hope it will not just die, be 3758

May 7, 1981 Tape No. 1347 ow - 1 MR. S. NEARY: allowed to die. There have been violations of the Financial Administration Act just the same as there were violations of the Financial Administration Act in connection with McConnell's and in connection with Devine Advertising. And, again, Mr.

Speaker, I have to say this, even though I was a member of the committee that made a unanimous report to this House in connection with the irregularities and the crimes that were committed there in connection with the spending for McConnell's and Devine Adver­ tising, even though I was a member of the committee that en­ dorsed the report, the unanimous report recommending that these funds be recovered and that certain action on the part of the Premier of that day was reprehensible, even though, Mr.

Speaker, I was a member of that committee, I have to say this, that I hope that the blame for the crimes that were committed and the theft and the robbery and the fraud, I hope it will not just be pinned on one man, Mr. Speaker, namely 1 Mr. Frank Moores. If han. members will take the trouble to read that report they will see that there are practically four or five paragraphs, almost a page and a half, that deals with collective responsibility. And I hope that Mr. Moores will not be the fall guy. Mr. Speaker, we can only table a report in this House.

We cannot initiate action,it is up to the government to initiate the action. Now in this particu­ lar instance of McConnell and Devine 1 who will they take action against? They cannot take action against the Tory Party. The Tory Party was actually innocent of the whole thing. They certainly cannot take action against one individual, namely, Frank Moores, the former Premier. '•lould that be fair, Mr. Speaker, when they were all in cahoots together, to lay the blame on one man, to make a fall guy out of one man, to use Mr. Moores as a scapegoat? Is that what they are attempting to do, Mr. Speaker?

If it is,that would be very unfair and justice will not be done. Every minister in the 3759 .....

May 7, 1981 Tape No. 1347 ow - 2 MR. S. NEARY: government at that time is responsible , every minister! There is no out, no excuses! They cannot say, 'Well, we have a loss of memory '. They cannot say that. They cannot say, ' Mr. Moores did not let us know what was going on ' . That is a weak and a cowardly excuse and would only show the characteristics of somebody who had a yellow streak up and down his spine. They cannot say that . 3760

May 7, 1981 Tape 1348 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: Mr. Moores can only accept his share of the blame the same as the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan),who was in that Cabinet, has to accept his share of the blame. The Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey) is equally to blame. And the Premier at this moment, who was a senior minister in that government, has to accept his share of the blame. Eleven or twelve ministers in the present Cabinet cannot weasel their way out of this. They cannot skirt around it. They cannot shirk their responsibility.

We happen to be working under a system, the British parliamentary system, that says - and this is the heart and soul of the system and how it works - that every member of the Cabinet was equally responsible. Collective responsibility it is called. AN HON. MEMBER: Right. MR. NEARY: as the fall guy. MR. MORGAN: MR. NEARY: And Frank Moores must not be used Leave him alone, then, boy. That is right. Mr. Speaker, I would say this, I would just as soon leave him alone if he is going to be the scapegoat and the fall guy.

The present Premier of this Province, a senior minister in the government, . was one of the ones, one of the principals, who did one of these four and one-half minute films that were to be shown on Provincial Affa ·irs and, Mr. Speaker, can he sit in this House and tell ~e that he did not Know that that four and one-half film strip that he did for political purposes to be shown on Provincial Af·fairs, that he did not know that it was political? MR. STAGG: I was on there too. MR. NEARY: The hon. gentleman was not on like ' the Premier. MR. STAGG: I had my picture taken in Gander (inaudible) 3761 ....

May 7, 1981 Tape 1348 EC - 2 • MR. THOMS: Y·es, but the camera broke • MR. NEARY: There were four film strips made and the Premier appeared on one of these films by himself. MR. STAGG: It ended up on the cutting room floor. MR. NEARY: No, Mr. Speaker, it did not e,n.d up on the cutting.room floor, it ended up being seized· by the RCMP. MR. FLIGHT: MR. NEARY: Ma. FLIGHT: now on it (inaudible). MR. NEARY: That was where it ended. That was where it ended up. And there is a recommendatio .n in So, Mr .

Speaker, can the Premier, who was a senior minister in the Moores administration now say, ' I did not know, I do not remember. I did not know what Mr. Moores was doing . ' Because that is what they have been saying. They have been parading now before the Public Accounts Committee one a£ter the other, and,like a crowd of cowards, they have been saying, 'We do not remember,' or 'We did not know what Mr. Moores was doing, he did not tell us what he was doing.' Mr . Speaker, they approved the money, the allocation for that spending, 3 76 2 (,"

May 7, 1981, Tape 1349, Page 1 -- apb MR. NEARY: and they knew that Mr. Moores, everyone of them knew that Mr. Moores and Mr. Maynard and Mr. Thomas and Mr. Bob Cole nad been given authority to sign invoices in violation of the Financial Administration Act. Everyone of then knew it. And if they try to skunk their way out of it now, Mr. Speaker, I would have to say that .it would be the most cowardly and dastardly act that I have ever seen performed by a minister or a member of this House. The money has to be recovered, Mr.

Speaker, in the case of McConnell Advertising, and Devine Advertising, where the public reasury was defrauded of over $.100,000. We know of $100,000, it is probably more because in McConnell's case the Auditor General tells us that it was impossible to verify the invoices. So we do not know i£ the spending was authentic or not. And I hope that matter has not been dropped. And in the case of Mr.

Walsh,who very cleverly set up a trust company, funnelled his assets into a trust company so that when he comes out of prison he can waltz into this Province a wealthy man and he can say, '·Ah., I served my sentence, I paid the price to society for what I did, for my wrongdoing.' And everybody else, including the ministers, can walk away scot-free. That will be some justice, Mr. Speaker. Not only must justice be done, but justice must appear to be done. So let us hope, Mr. Speaker, that these matters will be dealt with quickly by an adminis.tration that is trying to portray the image of being honest and open.

That is what they have been telling is all along~ 'We are honest and open, we are not going to tolerate any skulduggery or wrongdoing'. Well, here is the chance for 3763

May 9, 1981, Tape 1349, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: them to prove their sincerity. And if they do not take swift action, then we can only come to the conclusion, Mr. Speaker, that this is all public relations, it is all PR, they have no intention of trying to recover the money or lay charges against those who are responsible. Mr. Walsh has been the scapegoat and now they are trying to make the scapegoat out of Mr. Moores. Well, Mr. Speaker, the only thing I can say about that is that poor old Mr. Moores ., if he i.s foolish enough, and Mr.

Walsh is foolish enough, to allow themselves to be the scapegoats, well,I would say there is not much hope for us. Walsh could tell us more than he did, Mr. Speaker. He could tell us more than he did. And I am sure if Mr. Moores i.s pushed that he will tell us a few things, a thing or two about the present Premier and the ministers in the government. I would say, Mr. Speaker, that they will walk very gingerly, they will be like they are treading on egg shells, they will be like they are walking on glass in their bare feet, the way they will deal with this situation.

We will soon find out how they are going to run a government of honesty and integrity and an open government. We will soon find out. They have had the Mahoney Royal Commission in their possession now for the last three weeks and the flimsy excuse the President of the Council(Mr. Marshall) gave us the day before yesterday for not tabling it in the House, 'It is in the 3764

May 7, 1981 Tape No. 1350 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: final stages of being studied,' whatever that means. MR. THOMS: MR. NEARY: The Cabinet does not have it yet. 'The final stages are being studied.' Mr. Speaker, you can read the report in one evening when you go to bed;you take the report to bed with you,and before you go to sleep, you can read it, but ,'it is in the final stages of being studied .• All that is, Mr. Speaker, is a stall, The fact of the matter is that they do not want the people of this Province to have the report. And so, Mr.

Speaker, I welcome this division of authority in the Department of Finance where th.e Comptroller of the Treasury will now have the sole responsibility-and he is our agent, he is the agent of this House, Mr. Speaker; he is the only safety valve that we have in this House and the people of this Province have,to see that there is no skulduggery or to see that there is no improper spending or abuse of taxpayers' money - the only safety valve we have. There are a couple of clauses in this bill that are of some significance, I am sure my hon. colleague the member for Grand Bank (Mr.

Thoms), our spokesman on Justice, when he speaks in this debate will refer to these other clauses that need further explanation, I might add. One clause there says that the provincial government can withhold all funds that are due people who have been convicted, not charged - I am not sure if it says charged or convicted in a court of law. I do not know what that means. Perhaps the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) can tell us when he closes the debate exactly what that clause means. I do not understand it. DR. COLLINS: What clause? MR.

NEARY: The clause that has to do with withholding funds of people who have been convicted - is that 3755 ...... -.

May 7, 1981 Tape No. 1350 SD - 2 MR. NEARY: What is it, convicted? AN HON. MEMBER: Charged. MR. NEARY: Oh, charged~ Not convicted, Mr. Speaker, charged or in dispute with the government. MR. THOMS: You are guilty until proven innocent. MR. NEARY: Guilty until proven innocent 1 as my friend says. Charged. Does that mean that somebody could ·' go to arbitration under a clause in a contract with the government and they could put the dispute to arbitration and then the government would withhold their funds? Is that what it means? If I could get the hon. gentleman's attention - DR. COLLINS: I will explain. MR.

NEARY: But am I making a valid point? DR. COLLINS: You are making a point and I will reply to it. MR. NEARY: But if there is a situation that develops under a contract with the government where a company has exercised its rights under the arbitration clause of an agreement, can the government then, with this amendment, withhold funds? These are some of the questions I would like to see answered, Mr. Speaker, and I am lo~g forward to hearing further debate on this matter. MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : The hen. member for Grand Bank. MR. W. MARSHALL: The hon. member has spoken before in the debate. MR.

THOMS: No, t~e ~on. member, Mr. Speaker, has not spoken before in this debate. That I can assure the hon. t~e President of the Council (Mr. Marshall). I had only planned to speak for two or three minutes to this bill but I will probably go to a half an hour now, Mr. Speaker. MR. BAIRD: A half hour for what you could say in two minutes. MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, at least I get on my feet and I say what is on my mind& I am not like the member for Humber West (Mr. Baird) who sits silently since he was elected back in June of 1979. 3766

May 7, 1981 Tape No. 1350 SD - 3 MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to have a few words in the debate on the amendment to the Financial Administration Act. I can honestly say I probably did not understand or realize the importance of the Financial Administration Act until this amendment came along. So I have learned something since this debate started. I wonder if my friend from Humber West (Mr. Baird) has learned anything since he has been elected.

But I have learned something since this debate has started and that is that the Financial Administration Act could very well be the most important piece of legislation that we have in this Province. Mr. Speaker, it did show me one thing,and the Public Accounts report showed me the same thing,and that is that we have sitting across from us in the Tory administration today some of the greatest - I think we see the greatest act of cowardism that ! have ever seen in my life.

I think we saw that before the PAC when minister after minister paraded before the PAC very conveniently suffering from selective amnesia, not being able to remember what went on in Cabinet or what was approved in Cabinet, very conveniently, Mr. Speaker,forgetting it. 3767

May 7, 1981 Tape No. 1351 NM - 1 MR. THOMS: But, Mr. Speaker, the Premier of this Province, who was a member of that Cabinet; the Minister of Finance (Dr. Co~lins) who is bringing in this amendment, who was a member of that Cabinet; the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn) , who was a member of that Cabinet. I do not know if the hon. member for Ferryland (Mr. Power) was a member of that Cabinet or not. Were you? MR. POWER: I was not (inaudible). AN HON. MEMBER: Yes. Yes. Yes. MR. THOMS: You were not1 You are very, very fortunate. The Minister of Social Services (Mr.

Hickey) 1 whom I have said publicly is the one minister in the Tory Administration who treats the Opposition with any sort of decency when they go to him with a problem, and will give action even though you may or may not agree with him, or with the result. The Minister of Health (Mr. House) was another member of the Cabinet who in 1978 and now has got to bear the responsibility for the decision made by the then administration. MR. MOORES: Hear, hear! MR. HISCOCK: Right on. MR. THOMS: Now I can talk about the administration that was in existence in this Province in 1978, or 1975. - MR.

NEARY: It is Practically the same one now. ' MR. THOMS: I was not a member of the previous, previous, previous administration. I am not tarred with any administration. I have not had that privilege yet. Call an election though, call an election and with the good graces of the present Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Stirling) I will probably get a chance to form a part of the administration of this Province. 3768 I •

May 7, 1981 Tape No. 1351 NM - 2 MR. THOMS: But how many were there, Mr. Speaker? How many of the present Cabinet? A goodly number - MR. NEARY: Eleven or twelve. MR. THOMS: - a goodly number,- eleven or tweive my friend from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) tells me MR. NEARY: That is right. That is right. MR. THOMS: -were members of the Cabinet who in 1978, on April 20th., approved a Minute 'of Cabinet 347-'78. Now, Mr. Speaker, under the principle of collective responsibility every member of the Cabinet at that particular time was responsible for the decisions made in Cabinet.

And that is a basic principle to our way of government, tfiat every minister is responsible for the decisions of Cabinet, if they sit in that Cabinet. Even, Mr. Speaker, even if a Cabinet minister is vacationing in Nassau MR. NEARY: That is right. MR. THOMS: - if there is a decision made in Cabinet while he is in Nassau,he is as responsible for the decision made in Cabinet as if he were here right on the spot. The Public Accounts Committee says, "The Cabinet's decisions are ultimately unanimous. If a minister cannot support every decision of Cabinet he must resign. MR. NEARY: assume - MR. THOMS: responsible - MR.

NEARY: MR. TH:OMS: decision.' MR. MOORES: And nobody resigned so we can only If he does not resign he is equally Right on. - with other ministers for every It is a long-standing - 3769

May 7, 1981 Tape No. 1351 NM- 3 MR. THOMS : No wonder the President o f t he Council (Mr. Marshall) never misses a Cabinet meeting. No wonder he never misses a Cabinet meeting, because he knows what can happen behind his back . Re may not read the minutes MR . NEARY: But he is still responsible if it happens behind his back or not . MR . MARSHALL: Would the hon . gentleman permit - HR. THOMS: You will get a chance to have your say a£ter r am finished . MR. MARSHALL: r just want to say (inaudib l e ) . MR . THOMS: Re is equally responsible with other ministers for every decision. 1-ffi. R.

MOORES: r knew he would record it. MR . THOMS : rs that a ques t ion or a comment from the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall)? MR . NEARY: That is the coward l y way out. That is the usual smoke screen to distract from the real issue. 37 70

May 7, 1981 Tape 1352 EC - 1 MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, the Public Accounts Committee goes on to say, "It does not matter whether a minister is present at a Cabinet meeting when a decision is taken." MR. STAGG: Dwell on the past. MR. THOMS: Do not talk to me about the past! I can regurgitate every time the hon. the member for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg) gets up or the member for Placentia East (Mr. Patterson) and all we know about is the Smallwood era. AN HON. MEMBER: That is right. MR. THOMS: They know more about the Smallwood era than they do about the Moores or the Peckford eras. That is all they know about.

I would like to inform the member for Stephenville, I was not a member, neither a backbencher nor a member of the Cabinet of any Smallwood administration - MR. NEARY: Or any Moores administration. MR. THOMS: - or any Moores administration. And, Mr. Speaker, it is even less likely that I will ever be a member of a Peckford administration. But, Mr. Speaker, if I am ever a member, I will accept my responsibilities. I will not cower before the PAC and say, 'I cannot remember anything about that. I mean, I was signing papers, Mr. Speaker, all day - I cannot remember anything that went on that day, anything in Cabinet.

I cannot remember any papers coming across my desk. What do you think I am?' MR. NEARY: And besides, it happened three years ago. I mean, how do you expect me to remember back that far? MR. THOMS: But if you take that attitude, as the ministers did who paraded before the PAC, Mr. Speaker, then you are shirking your responsibility. Now, that is nothing new for the members of the Peckford administration. The Minister of Education (Ms Verge) does it naturally. I mean, her shrug is as good as Pierre Trudeau's. 3771

May 7, 1981 MR. THOMS: MR. STAGG; on Pierre. MR. THOMS: Tape 1352 She does it naturally. Let us have (inaudible) EC - 2 Now, Mr. Speaker, the PAC report also goes on to say that•a minister is provided with a copy of all decisions and he is expected to read them.' MR. NEARY: Right. MR. THOMS: 1 If he fails to do so he does so at his peril as ignorance is no excuse from the collective responsibility of Cabinet.' SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR·. THOMS: So if the Minister of Lands and Forests (Mr.

Power) has any illusions about not being responsible for a decision taken at a Cabinet meeting he missed.yesterday,then he had better think again. MR. WHITE: He had better read his material. MR. THOMS: He had better read his material because he is responsible. Mr. Speaker, another interesting comment in the PAC report - and, Mr. Speaker, you know, this is a report that just was filed by my friend from Lewisporte (Mr. White). My friend from Windsor - Buchans (Mr. Flight) is a member, my friend from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) is a member. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. THOMS: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. THOMS: Kilbride.

My friend from Kilbride (Mr.Aylward) - Used to be a member. - used to be a member. But there are four - what I am trying to get, there are four members, there are four backbenchers all trying to claw their way into the Cabinet on that side who are on the Public'Accounts Committee. There are no minority reports or anything in here. As far as I know, this is a unanimous decision of the PAC. MR. NEARY: Right on! 3772

May 7, 1981 Tape 1352 EC - 3 MR. THOMS: so everything that is written right here, everything that is written about collective responsi­ bility in a Cabinet is agreed to by the Tory members of the Public Accounts Committee. And the Tory members of this Committee say this: 1The collective responsibility of Cabinet extends beyond decisions taken at Cabinet meetings . Each Cabinet minister is responsible to the Legislature and to the people of the Province for matters within his department's responsibility .· Now, recommendation number one of the Public Accounts Committee report says this: "The government should act to ensure that the protection of the Public Treasury provided by

Section 3l(

a) of the Financial Administration Act remains effective." The greatest act of cowardice that one could see - the minister~ in this Tory administration ; 37i3

May 7, 1981 Tape No. 1353 EL - 1 MR. THOMS: took the former Premier of this Province and threw him to the wolves. Everyone of them who carne before the PAC, everyone of them who carne before the PAC put all the blame on the Premier. They put all the blame on the Premier. They were not prepared, they were not prepared in 1978 to accept their responsibility as members of the Moores administration. They were not prepared to accept their res­ ponsibility. They should not be in the present administration:. They should not be there because, Mr.

Speaker, there is nothing to indicate to roe that those eleven or twelve who were in the Moores' administration are any more prepared to accept their responsibility today anymore than they were when they carne before the PAC. Nothing to in­ dicate it, nothing. Mr. Speaker, there ~s some very very interesting-and this PAC report should be required reading for every Cabinet Minister. As a matter of fact, those who are in the Cabinet should have to eat every page of it. They re­ fer here to the Premier of the Province at the time, the Premier, to t~e Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins), the Minister of Public Works (H. Young) and the Minister of Health (W.House) , Social Services(T.Hickey), Fisheries(J.Morgan) - do not mind Fisheries, he would throw anybody to the wolves, anyone. But this is what the PAC says, 'aside from Premier Moores•other actions, his treatment of Mr. Thomas was reprehensible.' Now, Mr. Speaker, - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: Fonse will look after you. MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : Order, please! MR. THOMS: Mr.

Speaker, if the actions of the Premier at that time were reprehensible, if his actions were reprehensible,and the PAC report says they were reprehensible, 3774

May 7, 1981 Tape No. 1353 EL - 2 MR. THOMS: then, Mr. Speaker, you have to carry this further because of the principle of collective responsibility. Because of the principle of collective responsibility, then the Minister of Health (W. House) is just as reprehensible, the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) is just as reprehensible, the Minister of Public Works (H. Young) is just as reprehensible, the Minister of Fisheries (J. Morgan) is just as reprehensib~e, the Minister of Social Services (T. Hickey) is just as reprehensible - MR. HODDER: What about the Minister of Health? Do not forget the Minister of Health.

MR. THOMS: Oh, I did not forget the Minister of Health. He is just as reprehensible. The Minister of Manpower (J. Dinn) is just as reprehensible. MR. DINN: I had nothing to do with it. MR. THOMS : There you go, you see the selective amnesia. He had nothing at all to do with it - MR. DINN: MR. THOMS: it. Read the PAC report. all to do with it. Nothing to do with it. He had nothing at all to do with It says in black and white, you had MR. HODDER: washing his hands. MR. YOUNG: He is like Pontius Pilate, he is They are collectively washing their hands. At that time (inaudible) . MR. THOMS: That is it.

Maybe he does not un- derstand, maybe he does not understand the theory, the principle of collective responsibility in Cabinet. Maybe you do not under­ stand that. Maybe instead of French lessons, Mr. Speaker, we can have some lessons in government, for the Minister of Public Works, so he can learn something about it. Now, Mr. Speaker, I have mentioned the fact that the Minister of Health, and the Minister of Public Works and the Minister of Social Services, the Minister of Fisheries, the Minister of Finance, I have mentioned the fact that they were 3775

May 7, 1981 Tape NO. 1353 EL - 3 MR . THOMS: reprehensible and they remain re- prehensible because they have to accept the responsibility, their legal responsibility as members of the Cabinet of that infamous day, April 20, 1978. Mr. Speaker, I have left one out. I have left a member of that Cabinet out. It just came to mind who I did not mention when I was going through the list of Cabinet Ministers. I missed one. Who did I miss, Mr. Speaker? 3776

May 7, 198~, Tape ~354, Page~~~ apb MR. THOMS: present Premier! None other than the He was a member of the Moores:'- administration in 1~78 - MR. NEARY: A seni.or mi.nister. MR . THOMS: Yes, a seni.or mi.ni.ster. He was a member of the Moores t admi.ni.stration whi.ch the - PAC report says was reprehensible. So i.n additi.on to the Minister of Health(Mr. Housel,and the Mini.ster of Publi.c Works(Mr. Young),and the Mi.nister of Fi.nance (Dr. Collins), and Social Servi.ces(Mr. Hickey}, and Fisheries(Mr. Morgan) etc. - MR. NEARY: And Manpower (Mr. Di.nn J_. MR. THOMS: And Labour and Manpower, MR.

WHITE: The President of the Council (Mr. Marshall} was smart enough to ge.t out. MR. THOHS: - the Premier of this Province must accept his share of the blame. He was just as reprehensible as anybody else. Can you imagi.ne, Mr. Speaker? Somewhere in this report it says certai.n individuals did certain things - yes, th.ey are referring to Mr. Thomas who says he was intimi.dated, in his testimony. He indicated he feared losi.ng his job i.f he­ did not certify the i.nvoi .ces. I thought, Mr. Speaker, from listening to that crowd over there that the - MR. R. MOORES: Honourable. MR.

THOMS: - this hon. crowd - I thought that the only ti.me anybody ever feared los:i.ng a job was in the bad, bad twenty-three years of Smallwood administration in this Provi.nce. MR. NEARY: We were told Moores brought freedom to Newfoundland. MR. THOMS: That is the onl y time, I understood,that people were afraid of losing their jobs. 3777 .....

May 7, 1981, Tape 1354, Page 2 -- apb MR. THOMS: _jobs was when we had twenty-three years of the Smallwood administration. I do not know, Mr. Speaker, I do not know. I was not a member, neither a backbencher nor a member of the Smallwood administration. I was not around then. But listening to this hon. crowd on the other side of the House, we had twenty-three years of dictatorsh£p when everybody was afraid of losing their jobs. MR. STAGG: Hear, hear~ MR.

THOMS: And lo and behold, Mr, Speaker, a couple of days ago, here we have a report, a unanimous report presumably signed somewhere by four Tory backbenchers wh£ch says that Mr. Thomas feared losing his job if he di.d not certify these invoi.ces. Here we have the PAC Report saying that the treatment of Mr. Thomas was reprehensible and that treatment, Mr.

Speaker, whether they want to accept i.t or not, whether they can lie in bed at n£ght and not be concerned about it, that treatment is as much the responsibi.li.ty of the present ten, or eleven, or twelve members of the Peckford administration as it was of· the Moores administration. This Cabinet is not only reprehensible in that sense, of what they did to Mr. Thomas, but as far as I am concerned, they are reprehensible in what they did to Mr. Moores. Whether he deserved it or not, they threw him to the dogs. MR. NEARY: He is the sucker • MR. THOMS: He is the fall guy.

Two years ago he was Premier of this Province. The t-1ini.ster of Public Works (Mr.. Youngl and the Minister of Finance. (Dr. Collins) were walk£ng the proper distance 3778

May 7,1981 Tape No. 1355 AH-1 MR. THOMS: behind the man, trying to touch the hem of his garment. He no sooner resigns as Premier of this Province than the Cabinet ministers parade before the Public Accounts Committee of this Province , on which sit four Tory backbenchers,and threw him to the wolves, threw him to the dogs, cut his throat~ there was nothing good about him.And Mr. Clean,with the beautiful from tan from Nassau, as we saw this afternoon, he comes along, not responsible, not responsible, Mr. Speaker. 'We are startingoff from scratch. I am going to forgive myself/he says.

I am going to forgive myself and in the process I will forgive the Minister of Public Works (Mr . Young), and Health (Mr. House), and Fisheries (Mr. Morgan), and Social Services (Mr. Hickey), and Finance (Dr.Collins), and Manpower (Mr. Dinn), etc.- MR. NEARY: Industrial Development. MR. THOMS: -Industrial Development (Mr.Windsor). I will forgive them all.' But he cannot, he cannot just come in here, he cannot come in here like a Pontius Pilate and wash his hands of the actions that he was a part of as a senior member of that administration. MR.

HODDER: And what did he do to the Minister of Fisheries who broke the Public Tendering Act? MR. THOMS: When I see what. ~~ey did to the former Premier of this Province, the one they served under, I have one piece of advice for the present Premier of this Province;for God'ssake do not turn your back, do not ~urn your back because they will have the knives out just as quickly. fhey will cut him in half. They will chew him up and throw 'about the bits. MR. HODDER: It is starting already. MR. THOMS: And then they will come in lily white and claim no responsibility whatsoever. Now, Mr. Speaker, 3779

May 7,1981 Tape No. 1355 AH-2 MR. THOMS: just to conclude in -::he three or four minutes that are left to me, I am expecting action on this report. I am expecting action on the PAC report. Some people might say that I am overly optimistic but I have great faith in the present Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheirner) of this Province. I assume he does not come under the collective responsibility I was talking about because he was the Speaker of the House at the time. But I have great faith in that man's ability and that man's honesty and integrity. Somebody should be sued, Mr.

Speaker, there should be some charges brought under the PAC. Now who is going to be charged? Who is going to be sued? Who is going to be sued to get the money back? You cannot sue the PC party. Legally the PC party does not exist any more than the Liberal party. Legally it does not exist and cannot be sued. Are we going to really rub it in and sue Mr. Moores or are we going to sue the civil servants who are involved in this? My suggestion to the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer),Mr. Speaker, is that he sue the people who should be sued and the people who should be sued are sitting in this House today.

At least ten or eleven of them are sitting in this House today.cAnd I will say again that the people who should be sued, the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Young) , the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins), the Hinister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan), Social Services (Mr. Hickey), Health (Dr. Collins) and the present Premier of this Province, he should be sued to get the money back that was illegally spent and found to be so. Somebody is responsible and that somebody, these somebodies are the Cabinet of the time. They have to accept their responsibily and I hope the Minister of Justice (Mr.

Ottenheirner) shows us just what justice exactly that. ~ is all about in this Province and does Thank you, Mr. Speaker. 3780

May 7, 1981 Tape No. 1356 DW - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Butt): The hon. member for Carbonear. MR. R. MOORES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We have the issue, there is no question about it. We have the topic that I believe most represents,of all the topics that this House has ever been confronted with, the tenor and the substance and the meas­ ure of this government. No question about it, Mr. Speaker. But before we get into the issue, before we get into my thirty minute time allocation on this,I would like to take a brief moment or two to address my hon. colleague, the member for the district of Stephenville (Mr.

Stagg) when he made perhap~ one of the lowest references to me, to my personage,that has ever been made in this House in the six years that I have been here. Generally speaking, Mr. Speaker - MR. F. STAGG: MR. SPEAKER: for Stephenville. MR. F. STAGG: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. A point of order, the hon. member I think, Mr. Speaker, we are discussing the Financial Administration Act and an attack upon an bon. member has no relevancy here. MR. T. LUSH: man. MR. G. FLIGHT: MR. SPEAKER: Sit down and take it like a There is no point of order.

Under second readina there is usually broad-range discussion and witK' each member speaking, I think the Chair will be flexible enough to allow a brief

preamble because we are discussing 3econd reading. So I will allow the hon. member to continue. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 3781

May 7, 1981 Tape No. 1356 DW - 2 MR. R. MOORES: Mr. Speaker, what but . for what impartiality of the Chair , would all of us be? What would we be indeed, Mr. Speaker? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. R. MOORES: The remark - so that I can put the issue in perspective,the remark that the hon. member fo.r Stephenville (Mr. Stagg) so unwisely made was when he was getting up to report on the findings of the Estimates Committee on Government Services,he very nobly and very gentlemanly and very honourably said, 'The member for Car­ bonear (l-1r. Moores) was on that committee but he did not attend any meetings'.

And the truth was never plainer than the fact that the hon. member for Carbonear was not at the committee meetings, did not ever intend to go and does not ever intend to go. The hon. member for Carbonear, like a number of members on both sides of this House,has always felt that the scurrilous method by which this government has re-directed debate on the Estimates in this House to committees outside of the House is beyond, Mr. Speaker, reprehensibility. That "is why the member for Carbonear does not attend Estimates committees because the Estimates Committees should never have existed.

It should be debated here in this House where all of us can have a go at it not under this - MR. F. STAGG: That is where we were. We were in the House. MR. R. MOORES: -supercilious , silly, stupid method of decreasing the significance of this House and the debate that goes on within it. But more importantly, Mr. Speaker, the crux of this matter is not it does not matter what the member for Carbonear says or where he was, the crux and the substance of this matter is that a beguiling member, a colleague in this House comes into this House 3782

May 7, 1981 Tape No. 1356 m-1- 3 MR. R. MOORES: and so ignorantly tries to bring ignominy against another member. And it is not only the member for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg) but it is some press members in this Province. Gille spie of CBC on television made note of my absence at committee meetinqs and did not even have the decency to phone me and ask me . Where were you? Why do you not come to committee meetings? '' Well, I will tell you why. I will tell you why my record in this House as a member resPonsible to my constituents is above any man's here, and that is because I tend to the problems of my district.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. R. MOORES: And I am in my district - when this House of Assembly is not open 3783

.May 7 1 1981 Tape No. 1357 NM - 1 ,. MR. MOORES: I am there ever y day that I can humanly possibly be there. MR. STAGG: Why did you sneak away from - MR. SPEAKER (Butt): Order, please! now prefaced his remarks - MR. MOORES: MR. SPEAKER: I believe the hon. member has Thank you, Mr. Speaker. - regarc;J.ing the Estimates Committee and would deal with the second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Financial Administration Act". MR. MOORES: The likes of the member for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg) to bring my representation of my district into question in this House. MR.

LUSH: Wait until that member scurries back to his law practice. MR. MOORES: Ye~, you had better be careful I do not get one of my university student .s to take the PC nomination from you. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. MOORES: is how weak you are. MR. STAGG: the university now? MR. MOO~S: He-ar 1 hear! You had better be careful. That The hon. inember is in charge of That is how weak you are and how insignificant your representation has been in your district. MR. STAGG: Let us bring the hen. member out. 3784

May 7, 1981 Tape No. 1357 NM - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Butt) Order, please! MR. MOORES: Now, Mr. Speaker, the han. member for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg) is no more significant,! might say, or less significant, than his colleagues in the government when it comes to corruption, when it comes to the misuse of public funds in this Province.

The one thing that the public of this Province perceives us to be, perceives us to be equal, all of us, whichever side of the House we sit on, the public of Newfoundland perceives us to be equal in that we are all corrupt and for a long time I felt that that was an unnecessary feelin_g on the part of the public in this Province and generally on the part of the populations all over Canada and North America. r always felt that we merely, as human beings, mirror the people we serve, ·and if any of you ever go sometimes to a building materials dealer, or a super­ market, or a dry goods store, or anything else, you will know what corruption is.

You will know the legal theft that goes on within this Province, how shopkeepers, how entrepreneurs how businessmen rob us and thieve from us every chance they ge~ and in many cases they are protected, they are protected in doing that by the principle of free enterprise, a principle of free enterprise,by the way, that has outworn its use- fullness in a world that is encumbered by inflation, and encumbered by a middl~-class that is overtaxed. MR. STAGG: Is the hon. member leaning to the left? MR. MOORES: I have always been leaning to the left.

If I was Roman Catholic and residing in Northern Island, I would probably be a member of the IRA. If there was a decent NDP Party in this Province,! might just be a member of the NDP . But the fact of the matter is that the only 3785 .-

May 7, 1981 Tape No. 1357 NM - 3 MR. MOORES: alternative to the present government in this Province is the Liberal Party. And the only alternative that has ever been to the PC Government in this Province has been the Liberal Party. And I think myself, Mr.

Speaker, that we on this side of the House are not as much appalled at the idea that government misuses money and is corrupt in itself, in its actions and the way it deals with the people in this Province, but we are appalled more at the fact that this government, this government presently in this Province, is getting away with corruption and misuse of public funds right under the noses of the people. MR. THOMS: They sit there and take it without even debating, not even debating. MR. MOORES: I~ is just incredible, Mr.

Speaker, what the press in this Province is not doing to uncover the kind of rape of the puhlic treasury that is going on. And time and time again we have brought it up in this House and there has been no significant publication given to it. Do you know that the Report of the Public Accounts Committee got about 500 words of coverage in both daily newspapers in the City of St.

John's, and a moment or two on most of the radio and television stations, a repor~ that concluded unequivocally that the former Premier of this Province and his Cabinet abused the finances of this Province, bullied the officials that they had working 3786 ...... ·: ....

May 7, 1981 Tape No. 1358 SD - 1 MR. MOORES: for them,actually corruptly misused public fundsr It was made very clear in this report, there was no question of it, it was an unaminous report, there was no dissension, no objection,even,in the findings of it. And what happened? What action did this government take, what action has anyone taken to make these people accountable for what they did? A public inquiry, a select committee of the House, perhaps, judicial committee of some sort, what?

Hunderds of thousands of dollars taken and wasted and squandered on political propaganda and party usage, brow beaten officials in government, misuse of public funds, no public tenders and what has been done? What will be done? The answer is nothing.

We know that, I mean, we are not ~i~ve enough on this side of the House to think that the Premier of this Province, the white knight of Newfoundland - no, not so white right now, he just got back from Nassau - but the white ,knight of this Province, a senior- one of the top three ministers in the Moores' administration, one of the top three Cabinet ministers responsible for formulation of policy and government decision in the Moores' ~abinet,wno now says he cannot remember what went on, He did not know that these things were going on right beneath his nose,yet the decisions were made in Cabinet.

And this same Premier- this same Cabinet minister now sits as Premier of this Province and denies any responsibility, any collective responsibility for the decisions that were made by a Cabinet in which he was a member. MR. LUSH: A senior member. MR. MOORES: Not only senior, never mind the senior part of it, the fact is the man was Minister of Mines and Energy , Th~s was perhaps the most critical portfolio in the Moores' government in policy formulation. He of all th.e ministers in the Moores' administration had every reason to want to get re-elected, to want his government to get re-elected, 3787 .-.,6 •

May 7, 1981 Tape No. 1358 so - 2 MR. MOORES: and to do that, to have his government get re- elected, to continue to soften his nest, to continue on his path towards the premiership of this Province, he allowed Frank Moores, who, by the way, was,without question,the most corrupt Premier in this Province's history , and that takes in ~lderdice - well it takes in - MR. THOI-1S: Re was pretty corrupt. MR. MOORES: - a dozen infamous premiers over a period of one hundred and some-odd years and Moores, without question, was the most corrupt. He makes Joey Smallwood look like the angel Gabriel.

That is how bad he was and we kept saying it from 1972- well,not quite 1972, it to~ a year or so for us to catch on . MR. FLIGHT: And his ministry knew it. MR. MOORES: But we kept on saying that from 1973 until 1978, we kept repeating it, we kept telling the people of this Province, we kept pointing out certain things.And I might point out to you that the Moores ' administration started off with exactly the same pious goals as this government. MR. FLIGHT: The Premier himself on one of the pages (inaudible) . MR . MOORES: No different!

I recall Frank Moores so clearly, on television and on a tape recording in front of Memorial University students in 1972 1 3788

May 7, 1981, Tape 1359, Page 1 -- apb MR. MOORES: so clearly telling us that the time for the people of Newfoundland had come ., that he was going to absolve the people of Newfoundland for twenty-three years of dictatorship and corruption etc., etc. And what di.d he unleash? A cloud of darkness and a curtain of doom, Mr. Speaker. For almost ten years he unleashed it on the people of this Province. He took away any vestige that the people of this Province had for good, clean politics.

And more importantly, when the eleven former Cabinet members of the Moores' government,now sitting in this House, and the riow Premier, were asked to become accountable, were asked to stand up like men with some courage, some sense of manhood, and say, 'Look, yes, boy, I was a part of it, I was a part of that Cabinet and I am sorry to say that tliere was nothing that I could do, I had to keep my mouth _ shut, I had to toe the line because I wanted to become Premier of Newfoundland someday, and I was not going to kick against Frank Moores when I was a senior Cabinet minist ·er and get myself flicked, flung, kicked out of Cabinet.

I was not going to do that, I was not going to do that at all. What I was going to do was to stay in the Moores~ Cabinet, agree to whatever went on, agree to i.t, go along with. it-' - not only that, but encouraged it, encouraged all the corruption that they could encourage because the faster Moores went down hill the faster the present Premier would become Premier. And that happened, you know, that scenario is not theoretical 1 that is actual and factual when you look from hindsight. There is no theory there, that is a fact. MR. NEARY: Power at any price. MR. MOORES: Sure!

I mean, this Premier saw what was happening to the Moores government. The Moores government was finished in 1978 and they knew 3789 ....

May 7, 1981, Tape 1359, Page 2 -- apb MR. MOORES: it. Every man in it was crawling under whatever rock he could find and hoping to hell that he would not get beaten in the next election. And what happened? They watched Moore& fall. But Frankie baby - you know, I have known him, by the way gentlemen, for twenty years off and on. I do not know the man personally, that is to say intimately, but I do know him because I am from Carbonear and that is whE~a Frankie baby was born too.

He grew up in Carbonear and Carbonear being a small town you cannot got to the outhouse without people knowing you are doing it etc., like most small~ in Newfoundland. And there is one thing about Frank Moores, he was not on an ego trip. He saw the writing on the wall and the shrewd guy got out. He said, 'There is no way that I am going to give the people of Newfoundland the satisfaction of kicking me out of office,I am going to get out now and make it appear like I am retiring like a gentleman •·. MR. THOMS: He certainly got klcked after he got out. MR.

MOORES: I will guarantee you he got kicked and not by the people of Newfoundland. MR. FLIGHT: Et tu Brutus! MR. MOORES: The present Premier was not too slow in denying Frankie baby three times before the rooster crowed, not at all. And what then, if one looks at the behaviour of this government and its Premier when they were members of the Moores •· Cabinet, does that tell you about how they are acting now and how they would react to certain issues? Well, first of all they knew what corruption was..

And anybody who knows: what corruption is, or who has participated in some manner of wrongdoing, then they know how to conceal it that much 3790

May 7, 1981, Tape 1359, Page 3 -- apb MR. MOORES: better. And that is what is happening right here wLth this government, tney have learned how to conceal theLr corruption, their misuse of public funds, their browbeatLng of certain officials, how they appoint la·ckeys and cronies, political appointees to very important positions of government and agencies, how they aid and abet wrongdoing in this Province by not laying down 3791

May 7, 1981 Tape 1360 EC - 1 MR. MOORES: the law to certain officials who are running amuck with the people's money, and one example of that is Newfoundland Hydro. Dear God, Mr. Speaker, if there are no reins put on that agency of government, if somebody does not step on Vic Young pretty soon, man I am telling you that it will be another Quebec Hydro. The borrowing capacity of Newfoundland Hydro in this Province right now is $200 million a year.

Five years ago it was nothing and now it is placing upon the public debt of this Province and the taxpayers, $200 million a year and that is parallel to Hydro Quebec and Ontario Hydro. These same corporations, government agencies, started off at virtually nothing, under direct government control, and now they have grown to be absolutely uncontrollable monsters that in the case of Rene Levesque in Quebec, he cannot stop this guy, Boyd- is it? - Robert Boyd. He is so powerful in Quebec now that he actually besmirks the government. MR.

HODDER: Quebec Hydro is more powerful than the Quebec Government, and the same thing is happening here. MR. MOORES: That is correct. MR. FLIGHT: And now, too, Vic Young is more powerful than the Premier. MR. MOORES: Let me point out to members of the House, to prove my point that this is not all something that I contrived, fabricated, a couple of weeks ago, Parrizeau, the Finance Minister in Quebec, severely intervened in the operation of Quebec Hydro. A couple of years ago, Levesque appointed a Hydro Board. Prior to that it was operated by oasically the chairman and two other members.

Two years ago, Levesque changed that and set up a board of directors, most of whom were government appointees, to take back as much control of Quebec Hydro as he could. Now, two weeks ago, 3792

May 7, 1981 Tape 1360 EC - 2 MR. MOORES: Parrizeau went even further and has intervened and said, 'Quebec Hydro, you no longer can borrow any money. We are saying to you now that it is finished. You no longer run this government. You no longer further burden the taxpayer of Quebec.' And the same thing is happening in Newfoundland with Newfoundland Hydro. MR. FLIGHT: Only the government cannot step in. MR. MOORES: And the Premier of this Province knows what I am saying is right. He knows what I am saying.

And this guy, Young, of Newfoundland Hydro, you know, if you let him go he will destroy this Province environmentally and he will destroy it from a point of view of its financial burden on the taxpayer. MR. FLIGHT: MR. MOORES: What is the Premier's stand on the Cat Arm - He does not care about how much money is needed to produce electricity. MR. FLIGHT: MR. MOORES: rivers we can divert- MR. NEARY: to the consumer. MR. MOORES: - environmental? Produce it anywhere.

Divert whatever linaudible) the cost and sock it - and give it to them, and then whenever we need the money to do it, go to the government lackeys on the Public Utilities Board and we will get it anyway. Now, there is the truth of it and I wish that some young investigative reporter with the People's Paper would sit down one of these days and say, 'I am going to research that.

I am going to go to the libraries and go to the Quebec papers and see if I can determine some pattern of development of Newfoundland Hydro, something that would indicate to me their phychological intent in this Province,' and see if what I am talking about is not true, that we 3793

May 7, 1981 Tape 1360 EC - 3 MR. MOORES: have a young man at the helm of Newfoundland Hydro who wants to become titular head of the Government of Newfoundland. Just another example of the Government of this Province concealing its abuse of its authority by not using it. MR . FLIGHT: Aided and abetted by the Premier and the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr . Barry). DR. COLLINS: If it is a Newfoundlander, tear him down, boy ! MR. MOORES: Do not talk so foolish, boy! Where do you think I am from, New York? I do not have the right to objectively assess somebody's 3794

May 7, 1981 Tape No. 1361 EL - 1 MR. MOORES: performance in an agency, in a corporation that is spending hundreds of millions of dollars of public money? Do not talk so foolish then. And,you know, look here, a statement like that from the number two'minister of government is just ex­ actly what I am talking about. MR. FLIGHT: Hear, hear! MR. MOORES: No more regard for the public of this Province than a cat.And that is the crux of it, Mr.Speaker., the very substance of this bill that we are bringing in,

An Act To Amend the Financial Administration Act~ The Financial Administration Act,for the benefit of those people who do not know 1 is that piece of legislation which governs the a·iminist­ ration, the expenditure of public funds, how you do it, the proper procedure for which it is accounted. It encompasses the entire gambit of spending by the government. And because it does that, this amendment is a very wide-ranging debate~ in fact, almost as wide-ranging as the Budget debate because of the significance of the piece of legislation. And I find it difficult, Mr.

Speaker, so very difficult,after we have seen the financial administration Act circumvented so often. We have seen the financial administration act of this Province circumvented so often that the Auditor General is worn out informing this House in the Auditor General's report, annual reports, of circumvention of the Financial Administration Act,that it is a tragedy in this Prov­ ince. The man is worn out telling us how often it is done, the seriousne~s of it and how this government has no regard what­ ever for the regulations therein. They could not care less that there is a Financial Administration Act.

We are all the same as if we were in Bogota, Columbia or something, a banana republic, no accountability and do not care. Just as we have seen the Public Accounts Camdttee'sreport on government spending .3 7 9 5

May 7, 1981 Tape No. 1361 EL - 2 MR. MOORES: corruption, misuse of funds, brow- beating, fraud 1 just as we have seen - .here it is, here is the report. It is a public document, available to anyone in this Province.And now the Premier of this Province,just back from Nassau, fresh and revitalized and re-energized,should stand up in this House 'and say, 1 Mr.

Speaker, yes we are the good,clean government that we said we were and say we still are,and we are going to take these people, Frank Moores, Frankie baby, and the few others involved here and we are going to place them right before Criminal Court where they should be, right before court where they should be,and let them pay back the money~And Frankie baby can,'afford it, according to Torngat Investments. Mr. Speaker, it is a great privilege to speak on this, makes us all so equal. We are all one and the same,as far as the people are concerned,and they have a right to believe that.

They have a right to suspect it particularly. I mean, what can you expect the people to believe when you see this kind of stuff going on and still going on? Do not forge~, still going on this very day, it is going on in this government. ~ut they have learned to conceal 3796

May 7,1981 Tape No. 1362 AH-1 MR. MOORES: it, they have learned to cover it up and more importantly, Mr. Speaker, you cannot disclose it to the public because the Tory press in St. John's are just simply not interested in letting the people of this · Province know just how corrupt and slimy and dirty this government is underneath. And there it is, Mr. Speaker, not the members of the Opposition, we are not responsible for concealing it, it is the government and in turn the Tory press.

If you ever read some of the editorials on Chretien's visit and the letter in Bellevue district, the editorial-just because it went on in Smallwood's regime it is permitted here, just because Hitler exterminated six million Jews we can do it here, just because it went on in the past. They are bought and sold this Tory press, bought and sold in St. John's. Thank you. ~ MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Is the House ready for the question on the amendment? No.

Well,before the hon. member speaks 1 and I do not wish to interrupt him when he speaks, I can tell hon. members now that pursuant to Standing Orders 3l(h), it being 5 o'clock I can inform the House I have received notice of three motions for debate at s:3o when a motion to adjourn will be deemed to be before the House. First a notice is given by the han. member for Bellevue (Mr.Callan) arising out of a question asked the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth (Mr. Andrews) and the subject matter is the awarding of big game licenses. The second notice is given by the hon. the member for Grand Bank (Mr.

Thoms) arising out of a question asked the han. the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs Newhook) and the subject matter is water taxes 3797

May 7,1981 Tape No. 1362 AH-2 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): in Frenchman's Cove. And the third notice is given by the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) arising out of a question asked the hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs Newhook) and the subject matter is the introduction of the property tax. On the amendment the hon. member for Torngat Mountains. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I would be only be too qlad to take my seat if there is some member on the government side who would like to get up and say a few words. And I can understand, Mr.

Speaker, if I were a member on that government side I would not have the gall either to get up.So , Mr. Speaker, I can understand why m~s on that side do not feel inclined today to get up and speak in defence of this bill. Mr. Speaker, if I were a membe~ and the Premier just came back from Nassau, I would hang my head in shame too to know that this bill is coming before this hon. House and no one on the other side has the intestinal forti tude, to g.et up and speak in response to the bill. Well, Mr.

Speaker, I presume that the general public will draw conclusions of why there are thirty­ three members - SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. WARREN: - on the government side and no one will get up and speak in defence of this bill. It must be , Mr. Speaker, if I am reading it correctly, it must be because they are guilty, because that government is guilty. Mr. Speaker, if you are not guilty at least you are going to get up and try to defend yourself. So I would say the guilty stay quiet in this regard . Now, Mr. Speaker, if we can reflect 3798

May 7,1981 Tape No. 1362 AH-3 MR. WARREN: back - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh ! MR. SPEAI<ER (Simms) : Order, please! MR. WARREN: If we can reflect back. MR . SPEAKER: Order, please! The Chair cannot hear a word that is being said. The hon. member I am sure would want to be heard . MR. WARREN: If we can reflect back , Mr. Speaker , sometime back in March, around the end of March. 1979 1 the Premier of this Province to~as campaigning to become leader of the Progressive Conservative party. AN HON.MEMBER: He was successful too. MR . WARREN: Thank you, hon . member. He was successful at that time.

And in June 1979 , he was campaigning then to become Premier of this Province . Again he was successful. So, Mr . Speaker, you can see the Premier has been successful on two occasions, 3799 ..

May 7, 1981 Tape No. 1363 DW - 1 MR. G. WARREN: successful in winning the leader- ship of the Progressive Conservative Party, successful in winning the last provincial election. However, Mr. Speaker, during the same period of time he was saying, ':•lash me and I shall be whiter than snow'. Now, Mr. Speaker, he was also saying that, 'Wash me and I shall be whiter than snow'. However, Mr. Speaker, he failed on that one. He failed on that one. The Premier of this Province failed. He won the first two but he failed on the third one because - MR. R. MOORES: And he knows it. MR. G.

WARREN: And he knows it too, and his government knows it. 'wash me and I shall be whiter than snow! Mr. Speaker, I think it is exactly the reverse. And this is where the Premier of this Province and his adminis­ tration fall down into the hands of justice, Mr. Speaker. This is where the Premier falls down. He won the first two however, he did not win the third one. What he gave his soul to; he gave his soul to the people of Newfoundland, 'Look, give me a chance and I shall be whiter than snow'. That is what he gave the people. He said, 'Give me the chance'.

Now, the people have given him his chance and two years have past, two years this.coming June, and we can see today more corruption in this government than has been in Newfoundland since 1949. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. G. WARREN: I believe, Mr. Speaker, that this bill was introduced for two reasons. And why was it introduced; It was introduced because of last year's findings of the Public Accounts Committee and confirmed by this year's findings of the Public Accounts Committee. Now, Mr. Speaker, you know, I suppose the Public Accounts Committee is the biggest farce that this government condones. Because, Mr.

Speaker, this government does not even believe in the Public Accounts 3800 ·-:

May 7, 1981 Tape No. 1363 DW - 2 MR. G. WARREN: committee,this government does even believe in the committee - MR. MOORES: Not in the members. MR. G. WARREN: Not in the members. Here is a Public Accounts Committee and this government will not even take seriously what it prints. They will not even take seriously what it prints. And on this committee there are four members from the government side. We can recall, Mr. Speaker - MR.

SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please~ If the hon. member would permit me,I would like to take this opportunity to welcome to our galleries today, a Member of Parliament for New Westminster, B.C., Mrs. Pauline Jewett. We hope she enjoys her visit. SOME HON. M!:MBERS: Hear, hear~ MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. G. WARREN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I am sure the hon. minister from the federal government will - AN HON. MEMBER: Member. MR. G. WARREN: - member from the f~al govern- ment will know that there is corruption in the Newfoundland gov!3rnment. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. G.

WARREN: Committee is made up of - SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. G. WARREN: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker, this Public Accounts Oh, _ oh! Yes, Mr. Speaker, I could see why the lady left. It is because of the corruption in this government, because she was ashamed to know that this govern­ ment is full of corruption. She never thought,right from B.C. to Newfoundland 1 that she would have to come all the way to Newfoundland to find out that there is corruption in this government. That is why the lady left. 3601

May 7, 1981 Tape No. 1363 OW - 3 MR. G. WARREN: Now, Mr. Speaker, the Public Accounts Committee last year - MR. MORGAN: (Inaudible) . MR. G. WARREN: Maw mouth over there is going off again . Last year , I believe , the Public Accounts Committee said something about maw mouth. The Public Accounts Committee said something last year about maw mouth but the Premier said noth ing wrong - SOME HON . MEMBERS: MR. L. THOMS: MR. SPEAXER (Baird) : MR . G. WARREN: Oh, oh! He is lily white. Order , pleas e} Right, lily white. Nothing wrong with the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan), nothing wrong with him. Now, Mr.

Speaker, this year the Public Accounts Committee comes out with their recom ­ mendations again. Now,I want to read recommendation number four; 'The Minister of Justice 3802 . .,.,. .

May 7, 1981, Tape 1364, Page~ -- apb MR. WARREN: (Mr. Ottenheimer) should direct his officials to immediately initiate law suits to recover the funds paid out under the Devine contract', immediately take steps - MR . THOMS: He has to sue his own ministers. MR. WARREN: - immediately take steps, Mr. Speaker. Now, I am ashamed to have to stand up in this hon. House and know that the Public Accounts Committee have recommended that the Minister of Justice take immediate steps. Now, there has to be something wrong. MR. NEARY: misunderstanding between two - MR.

WARREN: They tell us it' is a Well, that is what the Premier said last year about the Minister of Fiaheries, about maw mouth from Bona vista South. (Mr. Morgan J., but, Mr. Speaker, the Premier cannot say the same thing now, can he? The Premier cannot say the same thing now about this report. Mr. Speaker, what is the purpose of the PAC? Mr. Speaker, it is of no purpose whatsoever because the Premier of this Province will not take anything worth its salt that is in there.

That is why, the Premier does not care what is in the report, it is just passed over as the case of the Minister of Fisheries was pass .ed over last year, and he was given a blessing. So, Mr. Speaker, I believe that if we are going to appoint committees in this House and those committees are going to make recommendations, in particular - Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Fisheries to close his gob. 3803

May 7, 1981, Tape l364, Page 2 ~~ aph SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER(Baird): SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: Oh-, olL:' Order 1 pleas.e.!" Oh-, oh~ Is. the member for Torngat Mountains continuing his speechl If s.o, could we have a 1i ttle silence so the Chair can h.ear? MR. WARREN: .Mr. Speaker, it .is very difficult when you have the ~'linister of Fisheri.es (Mr. Morgan) on the other s.ide, and my =olleagues. on thls side trying to keep the m.inister down • .Mr.

Speaker,we are supposed to have a Publ.ic Accounts Committee that .is for the interests of this Prov.ince and I bel.ieve it i.s only fair for ttis government and thls Prem.ier to realize that there are things going wrong within th.is admin.istration, there are th-ings going wrong that were carried over from the Moores' administration .into this. administrati.on. Now, Mr. Speaker, .if I remember correctly, there were some films shown to the Public Accounts Committee members and in those films that were going to be shown on Prov.inci.al Affairs on CBC was the. Premier of the day. MR. NEARY: out of public funds. MR.

WARREN: Right. And pa.id for They were to be shown on Provincial Affairs and they were pa.id for out of the people's money for the P.C.Party. I want to read paragraph_ 2 on page 4 7, and thls is what the Premi.er •· s press. secretary, the secretary of the past Premi.er, Premier Moores, and the same press secretary that ~here is what 3804 ..... I •

May 7, 1981, Tape 136 4 , Page 3 -- apb MR. WARREN: Mr. Petten said - when asked if everyone associated with the filming of the political ads, including the ministers, had known that the ads were being created for the P.C.Party and not for the governmnet, what did Mr. Petten say, I wonder? He said that everyone had been told that the films were being produced for Povjncial Affairs and that he assumed they would have thought the films were being produced for the P.C . Party. Now I believe, Mr. Speaker, that was a good assumption.

And every minister who was in the Moores ' administration, . including the Premier of the day ­ because at that time he had his eye on the leadership and he said, 'Well, here is 3805

May 7, 1981 Tape No. 1365 EL - 1 MR. WARREN: a great chance for the Newfoundland people to see me on television and see me in this film on PrOvincial Affairs and sure I know about it and so therefore- AN HON. MEMBER: Did you (inaudible) MR. WARREN: No, thank God. And here it is, it is from the Public Accounts Committee - I believe that the Public Accounts - MR. SPEAKER (Butt): Order, please! MR. WARREN: - and here is a member on the Public Accounts Committee, so Mr. Speaker - MR. NEARY: Bring the film into the House. MR. WARREN: l-'IR. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER: ent of the Council. MR.

MARSHALL: Yes- A point of order, Mr. Speaker. A point of order, the hon. the Presid- Mr. Speaker, look we are discussing a bill. Actually it is an amendment, I understand, a si~ month hoist posed by one of the members opposite, if ' memory serves me correct,by the member for Trinity- Bay de Verde (F. Rowe), and the nature of the motion is that this bill not be read now but it be read six months time. The matter that is before the House which is to be read six months time according to the motion, is the Financial Administration Act. And, Mr.

Speaker, I know that certain items with respect to the Public Accounts Committee may be relevant to this, but I do think that perhaps is not the latitude, so that - the House, after all, Mr. Speaker, does have business to trans­ act, does have important business to transact and I think that the member speaking at least have some modicum of relevance. MR. HODDER: MR. "SPEAKER: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker. To the point of order, the hon. member for Port au Port. 3806 ......

May 7, 1981 Tape NO. 1365 EL - 2 MR. HODDER: To that point of order, t1r. Speaker, there is no order. The member is dealing with the Public Accounts Comm- ittee Report which comes under this particular act and, Mr. Speaker, if the member has strayed at times, it is perhaps be­ cause the government House Leader (W.Marshall) and the govern­ ment opposite have arranged the public debate of this House in such a way that we can only get on the Budget Speech once a week,and in order for the Opposition to get anything out at all in this House now, we have to try to get it in on public bills. MR.

SPEAKER (Butt): To that point of order, the Chair has allowed a broad-ranging discussion during second reading. However, I think it is a fair observation by the President of the Council,and I would ask the hon. member for Torngat Mountains (G.Warren) to confine his remarks to the six month hoist moved by the hon. member. The hon. member has thirteen minutes left. MR. WARREN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, thank you. I believe this Financial Administration Act, 1973, to amend the act, does leave much to be desired, and it is desired from this government that is in power at the present time,because this government in power, Mr.

Speaker, is abusing the people of Newfoundland and is actually, acc~rding to the Public Accounts Report that was tabled only a few days ago, costing the people of Newfoundland. It has cost a lot of money. It has cost the people of Newfoundland. Mr. Speaker, why has not all of the information been given to the Newfoundland population concerning the political poll that the past Premier of this Province carried out? Why was not all the information given? Do you know why, Mr. Speakerf Do you know why it was not given?

Because the people of this Province would be so upset with this administration that they would be in here day after day with pickets asking this administration to call an election because this administration at the present time, with the skulduggery that is still going on, should not be allowed 3807 .,•t= •

May 7, 1981 Tape No. 1365 EL - 3 MR. WARREN: to govern any longer. Now, Mr. Speaker, - ' MR. HODDER: The same thing (inaudible) government . MR. SPEAKER (Butt): Order, please! MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I am wondering, also, in speaking about the finances of this Province, the expenses incurred in this Provi.nce, why has not the Mahoney Inquiry been released yet? The minister annou~ced in the· Committee the other day that taey have already read it but it has not been released yet. Why, I wonder? . But, the Premier can come in today, the first day back form down South, and sign twenty- five year certificates 3808 .. ~ ·~-

May 7, 1981 Tape No. 1366 SD - 1 MR. WARREN: that he hopes to get out in the mail in a few days time to try to cover up, all those certificates are to try to cover up the bad doing. AN HON. MEMBER: What certificates? MR. WARREN: The twenty-five year certificates, fifty year certificates, thirty -five year certificates for employees in the civil service. And so he has a big bunch down on his desk now. By the way, have they been .passed in the House yet? MR. NEARY: (inaudible) • MR. WARREN: I should get one of these, I have my There it is and he is going to send those out now to cover up for all the bad feelings.

That is what he is going to do - MR. DINN: (Inaudible) civil servants. MR. WARREN: - just try to cover up and tell those civil servants, "Look, we never did that bad after all here is a certificate for you, you know:' MR. TULK: A piece of paper. MR. WARREN: A piece of paper with twenty-five years or thirty-five years marked on it. MR. NEARY: Eigh~ per cent on a certificate. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. TULK: Eight per cent on a certificate, yes. MR. NEARY: And a medal at Christmastime. New Year's honour linaudible) will be medals plus 8 per cent. MR. WARREN: Recommendation number 6, Mr.

Speaker, in the Public Accounts Committee says: 'It is the recommendation of the Committee that the full amount of those political expenses be determined and that an action be initiated on behalf of the Government of Newfoundland to recover the full amount that was expended on those political ads: MR. HODDER: Now,there is your certificate. 3809

May 7, 1981 Tape No. 1366 SD - 2 MR. WARREN: Now, Mr. Speaker, here it is,money owed to the people of Newfoundland by the PC Party and instead of this government initiating action and getting this money back into the Treasury where it belongs, get it back to the people - MR. TULK: Is (inaudible) going down to Bonavista? MR. NEARY: No, he will not come down. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, what would $50,000 do for the people in my district? I will tell you one thing, Mr. Speaker, it would do, it would help to repair housE-s that people are living in that are unfit for human habitation. That is one thing it would do, Mr.

Speaker. There are residents in my district living in homes that were built by this government that are unfit for human habitation, Mr. Speaker, That is what some of that money would do. MR. MARSHALL: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : A point of order raised by the hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: (Inaudible) deliberately wish to flaunt the ruling that Your Honour has made. MR. HODDER: The hon. Speaker did not (inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: MR. MARSHALL: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. gentleman - Oh, oh. Order, please! MR. MARSHALL: -Mr.

Speaker, the hon. gentleman is debating the matter of a six month hoist of the bill and he is now getting into area~ of what $50,000 could do for his district. There is ample provision for him to speak on that in the Throne Speech in the budget debate. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. THOMS: MR. SPEAKER: The principle of this bill - Oh, oh. Order, please! You should be ashamed of yourself. Order, please! 3810

May 7, 1981 Tape No. 1366 so - 3 MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, is this kind of conduct allowed to go on in this House or, you know, are we going to conduct this House as a parliamentary formum which _ it is -i.ntended .- to be? MR. FLIGHT: (Inaudiblet for eight vears. MR. MARSHALL: Listen to this, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : Order, please! The hon. President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) on a point of order. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is drifting off into areas of irrelevancy, having been called to order by Your Honour before.

I know he does not deliberately wish to flaunt Your Honour's ruling,but there is a certain order procedure in the House and it has to be followed, Mr. Speaker, if there is to be any progress. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, if the hon. gentleman wants a threat -it is not for me to give a threat but if the hon. gentleman wishes to act, you know, the way he is acting now and usurp the order of this House the way he is doing, and acting in a manner that is non-parliamentary, there is an obvious way of doinq the hon. gentleman cannot ·presume to take the House on his back as he is attempt- ing to do it. MR. FLIGHT: (Inaudible) honestly do. MR. MARSHALL: There is a remedy, Mr. Speaker, he can be named if he has to be named. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. MARSHALL: So, Mr.

Speaker, I am making this point of order and I am also appealing for order in the House, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! 3811 (,'

May 7, 1981. Tppe No. 1366 RA - 4 MR. SPEAKER(Butt ): Order, please, it is every hon. members right to be heard in silence. On this point of order I was about to call the hon. member to order, the hon. member for Torngat Mountains (Hr. Warren), because he was straying away from the amendment before the floor right now. MR. J. HODDER: MR. SPEAKER: MR. J. HODDER: MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, to the point of order .. Well.! have already ruled on it. Muzzled. The hon. member for Torngat Mountains has about five minutes to conclude. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.WARREN: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, what I am talking about is the honesty and integrity of this government which is way below par. Mr. Speaker, it is dis­ gusting when you see a minister of the Crown getting up and trying to have another member stopped from saying what he should say about this irrespo .nsible government, and this is the 3612 i

May 7, 1981 Tape 1367 PK - 1 MR. WARREN: government that said two years they are going to . be whiter than snow. MR. FLIGHT: They cannot take it. MR. WARREN: I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, to the member who just spoke, the President of the Privy Council (Mr. Marshall) - J1R. TULK: No 1 not Privy Council, MR. WARREN: The President of the Council who just spoke, he is a man, Mr. Speaker, a man of this Cabinet that is a long ways from being whiter than snow. He got a guilty conscience by getting up on points of order, Mr. Speaker.

And I would say that this £~nancial bill that we are discussing today - He got the Minister of Fisheries on his conscience. MR. WARREN: And it has come out in the last two years in the Public Accounts Committee concerning the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) contravening ,the Public Tendering Act,concerning the political poll 1 so, Mr. Speaker MR, 'l'ULK: Knowingly. DR. COLLINS: The reason for (inaudible) it is imJ?ossibl~ to keep (_ina,udiblaL, MR. WARREN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, that is why the hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde (Mr. F.

Rowe) brought in the six months hoist,because we are so upset because we are getting calls day after day from our constituents saying, What is the corrupt government doing? They are going to corrupt this Province, so will you fellows, on behalf of us,help.us try to find out some information? And all we are doing in this bill, Mr. Speaker, is trying to find out some information on why the PC Party of this 3813

May 7, 1981 Tape 1367 PK - 2 MR. WARREN: Province is allowed, is permitted to go and use the people's money to gather data for an election, and this is what is happening. And this is why, Mr. Speaker, we are asking for a six month hoist. We do not think that this bill should pass until we get enough information. Mr. Speaker, if the Premier of this Province would take seriously some of the recommendations - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh: MR. SPEAKER (MR. SIMMS) : Order, please! MR. WARREN: - that have been presented in this hon. House - MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR.

WARREN: (Inaudible) I have ever seen~ Order, please! - when the Public Accounts Committee Report was released - MR. WARREN: -the Premier would do justice to the Province if he would honour those recommenaations, and ask his Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimerl to take immediate steps to recover this money from the PC Party . MR. NEARY: No1 not from the PC Party (inaudible). MR. MOORES: It is the member for Eagle River CMr. Hiscock) who moved the six month hoist, not Trinity Bay de Verde (Mr. F. Rowe). Correct that because everyone is under the impression- MR. WARREN: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, there is a correction that my hon. colleague for Carbonear (Mr. Moorest brought in. It was the member for Eagle River who moved the six month hoist, not the member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. Now, Mr. Speaker, my time is getting short but,however,we want to say we are dissatisfied with the operation and · the administration of this government. 3 81 4 .....

May 7, 1981 Tape 1367 PK - 3 MR. WARREN: We are completely dissatisfied _with it, and subsequently, we believe it is a good idea to have both sections divided, both sections separated from each other. However 1 let us hope and pray that it will work better and let us not let the Premier try to forget that he was one of the keys in the Moores administration AN HON . MEMBER: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (MR. SIMMS) : Order, please~ MR. WARREN: - and it is not Mr. Moores who has to take the blame,it is the Premier, ·and the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan}, and the Minister of Health ~r.

Housel, the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey), Those are the ministers who were in the previous Moores administration, and those are the ministers who must take the credit for being part of this propaganda. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WARREN: Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL : I just got a minute, Mr. Speaker, to observe how edifying it has been this afternoon. We had this bill brought on, there was a six month hoist proposed by the Opposition when the debate adjourned.

They got up and they debated all afternoon, they did not even realize they proposed the six month hoist so that is how relevant they have been. MR. THOMS: MR, MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKBR: MR. MARSHALL: 3 81 5 (Inaudible) your responsibility. Mr. Speaker, you have got to - Order, please! Oh, oh~ Order, please~