Volume XL Thursday • ~ - ~ Province of Newfoundland FORTIETH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Fourth Session VERBATIM REPORT {Hansard) Speaker: Honourable P.]. McNicholas Number sz· 9 June 1988

The House met at 2:00p.m . MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, pleas~~! MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker . MR. t>PF.AKFR : Tho hon. Lho Minister of Intt:~lngovelnnmental Affairs. MR. DAWI~ : Mr . Speaker, if you and the· Leg·islaturr:~ 1.1.r111 b~~ar with rnc:!, l indicatE!d last week that, upon some sl:tJdy into cornrnE!ITts made by the member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk), I would be br·i ng i ng f o rwar·d a point of privilege. Mr . Speaker, I would like to point out, and all hon. mr:HnbE!rs are aware, that ·this is the first time in the nine years I have been in the legislature that I have had occasion to do this.

We have found over the past number of weeks thai: more and more rnembE:~rs of this House are obliged to take exception and to voice what they consider to be legitimate lnfr·inges upon thEdr ri.ght.s as members of this Legislature. Mr. Sp eak er, ther e ls a spec ific, and the s peci fie rela te s to corum ents mad e by the rnc-:1mber for r:ogo . l quot e f or Your Honour and for tl1 e liOIJse from Hcl nsa rd, Ju ne 2, Pd g <:1 2606 . In thr:~ context of referring to an item dectling wil:h a conflJ .ct of interest which was alJ.eged a gat n s t my c o 11 e a g u e , l: he mE:~ m be i'' for St. John 1 s South (Dr.

Collins), whi.ch, as the Legislature is aware, had no foundation, the member for Fogo said, and 1 quote frorn Hansard, ''~'lie have had a rninistr:H· in this House lie to us." NouJ, Mr. Speaker·, the next statement, I am not sure! whE!thE!r it refers to thE! minister he referred to in that L2800 June 9, 1988 Vol XL statement or L~Jhether it re!fElrs to the rnirdst.E!r ' h0 r0fers to in the next statement, but he said: "Il: has boon established beyond any shadow of doubt we have had a Jn:inJ.stE!r' ·.i.n lh .Ls Hous~~. the ForrnE!r Minister of Transportation, USE! ptlbl. Lc funds i.ltlp;nop<:1r·ly ." NotA! , Mr.

Speaker, that is a VE!ry se;"Lou s al1Aga t-Lon. It i.s, I contend, a serious breach of th t:• p;- ··.iv .LJ.eg(:~S of· rnr~ clS a rn·inist.f!r ctnd ds a. Jn e rnbt~l" of th i.!; I...E!g .. i.s latt..~r·e . That J s Uw s p e cU:- L c I lAJa n t ·to refer to, and this is thE! gE!neraJ. to p .L c w h :l c h I b t:' 1 i. (~ v e r E! F l E:~ c t s o n this Legislature and metnbt:'rs on both sides of thi s Legislature .

In an obvious attempt. that has been made over· lht:1 past nwnber of months, contrary to the i n:L t.:i.aJ. comments by the Leader of the Opposition that he would not engage in name calling and pettiness in Hw LegisJ.at.urE!, that he would takE:1 the high road, 1'1r . Speaker, that has bE l(Hl anything b u t a c c u r· a t e i. n 1~1 h a t h a s transpired over Hw past nurnbE!Y' of months. Instead of taking his stated dirE!Ction, the LE!ader· of the Oppos i.tion and the Opposit ·ion in general haVE! taken a pE !rsonaJ. dl:tack on indiv icludJs on l:hls sJde! of the House, Mr.

SpeakE!r, tAJhich I bel i.(:!VC .i.s cln .Lnf ;~ ingE!rnent i:.Hld certainly a breach of the priv LlGgE! S of all rnernbGr s of thi s Legj slatur·e. I wou1d commit to Your HcHtour' s study, as l ('l.lfl sur·c: ! he tAJi .. l.l, Beauchesne, Fourth Edition, Page 9 8 , S e c t .Lon J. 0 8 ( 3 ) , S e c t i o n 1 1 2 (1) and 113, and Erskine May, EightE: ~enth Edt tion, Page 148. I rnight also point out, Mr. Speaker, that in aJ.J. points of privilege !)Jhe re this Legislature has come into some doubt, ei thE!r as it reJ.ates to an individual No . 52 R2800

rn ern b E:~ r , o r a s .L t r· c-:<1 a t c s 1:. o l h E:~ Legj slature as a whole, this House and Lh0 members ln thls Legislature have the opportunity Lo set Lhe record straight. Precedent, Mr. Speaker, begins with one situation. In this instance, I am suggesting that I do not believe this is a precedent. I think there is enough identifiE!d precedent in the rE!ferences that we use in this Legislature, but certainly there is an opportunity for us to return this particular Legislature, in the eyes of the public, to the level to which it belongs.

Comments made by members opposite and made by the Leader of the Opposition certainly reflect on all of us as rnember·s of lh:i.s Legislature, and I do not have to quote lhe kinds of refr,~inences the Leader of the Opposition himself has put foinwaind over· Uw past number of weeks. To the specific, Mr. Speaker, what [ bel·iE!VC i.s a brt::~adl of wy pl"ivileges as a member, this allegation by the member for r·ogo that the former Minister of Transportation spent Funds improperly, and I quote, 11 Is in complete contradiction, Mr. Speai<E!r, to the facts. 11 MR . DOYLE : That is right. at that . And proven facts, MR.

DAWE : At the beginning of last Fall the member for Merd.hE!k made a numbE!r of initiatives that he has publicly acknowledged were wrong. fhey have done h·im c.:l lot of damage, and I think members of the OpposilLon, and l look specifjcally at the member for St. Barbe (Ml". Furey), who, .i.n d hoi::::! 1. J obby in Corner Brook, patted me on the shoulder and told me what a L2801 June 9, 1988 Vol XL b 1 an k e t y- · b .l i.~ n k ~;l e a z e t hE! rn ember for Menihek (Mr.

Fenwick) was to bring th.i:.> issue up, because they had had a look at it and there was noUdng to .il.:, and they certainly would not be pursuing it. Well, Mr. Speaker, a very short few hours later that vet~y member was in front of the media cameras doing what he did best in his former capacity as a drama teacher, doi.ng the very thing he used derogatory tE!rms against the member for Mr:~nihek for doing just a few days before. So I can only draw the conclusion, Mr. Speaker, that it was a deliberate and caucus approved acl:i.on to change JJJhat IAJas statr,~d to me by thE! member For St.

BarbE• and to get i.nvolvnd Jn a matl:E!r of discrediting an individual in this I.Gg ·LslattH't~, namely, rne, as Minister of Transportation at t..hat part .Lcular pooi.n l·. .Ln l:irne, and that, Mr. Speaker, has continued stnc0. that point i.n time. NeE!d I poi.nt oul, Mr.

Speaker, that a servant of this Legislature, the Auditor General, whE!n asked by the PubJ.ic Accounts Committee, a Committee, of course, which was not in existE!rtCe pl~ior l:o 1971, I guess, or 1972 ·-- thE'!re was no accountabiJ.ity - but certainly the Public Accounts CommitteE!, as is its d.ght, based on sorne concern, asked l:he Auditor General in his capacity to haVE! a look at tl1e expend:i.tUines tAJhich were involVE!d.

Certain rnli:~mbers of the media, rnosl: of t.he media, tAJho had an opportunity to look at l:hE! par l i. c t.rl.~, r s i. t u a 1: 'i. on , c a l.l e d rn e immediately, and right throughout the pro ces:.; inE! Fused to cornme nt on or publish thi.s kjnd of poJ.iUcal n cHn0. C a J.l J ng 1.: hat lfl(:1mbE! I" S 0 p po S :.L tE! u.JerE! involved in. OnJ.y tt.uo TnE!dia Look on lhe cudgel., i.f you IAJi.l.l, No. S2 R2801

of the Opposition to try and draw some kind of a conclusion that certainly was not there. AN HON. MEMBER : Name him! Name him! MR. DOYLE: It certainly was not there . M r .

S p e a k e r , 1: he {lu d i t o r G e n <-:! ,~<.d. in lhis background document i.nd.ical:es that: the deve1opment And maintenance and paving of the roads ln l:h<,~ Topsall Pond c.'lnd Topsail Round Pond area over the p a s t s <:~ v <:H' a l y e r.1 r s h fllJ e b e e n a continuation of this long-term development plan, and he r·efer·s to a five year developrnE!nt plan that t.>Jas eslablish<:1d back "i.n 1974- tAJh-Lch had a rotating ·five year program to it. Mr.

Speaker, the Auditor Generr.~l is thE! man who determines whether members of this Legislature, whether ministers of the Crown, whether the adminis l:ration, in his opinion. spends rnonE!Y improperly - again, Mr. Speaker, a very serious allegation, spends money impropE:~rly. That is determined by the Auditor General. Mr. Speaker, I t.Aiould like to quotE! again f;~om the AudJlor G<:'neral. 1 s Report on that particular issue.

I 1.: says. 1 The devel.op1nent anJ paving of the Round Pond Road and roads i.n lh:::- iuuned"i.ai:e a;~ea was consistent with the policies and p r a c t i c ~::~ s of t: h e ll (~ p a r· t m G l"l'l: o f Transportation relating to the maintenance and t~pgrading of roads u nd <:~r thE! g E! ,.,e ral block funding s allocated to speciFic Provincial districts. 1 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! L2802 June 9, 1988 Vol XL MR. DAWE: He went on to say, 1 Funds were providC:~d at t h<:~ rE!q u e-st of ·the member of the House of Assembly for the D:is trict of Conception Bay South. 1 I might point out, Mr.

Speaker, that o11l of this allocation, which is obvious, and the AtJCHi.:or C<:HH:H'al satAI it tAJas obvious, and those from the media and other·s sat~J i.t IAJaS obv ·ious, i.t was a continuation of a program thai: t~Jas s l.ill''t.od uwny, many year's ago . The member for ConceptJ.on Bay Soul:h, sjncE~ 19'19, through captl·:al funding from the Department of Transpor·tati.on, hi'lS ,~ecoived in the order of $31 million. rJJl~. Speakc-:!r', of that monE!Y.

Last yea,~ there was a small portion of that money spent :in a program of developing an infrastructurE! that would allow residential development in a re-zoned development area, an area that was in the process of being re-zoned. And, Mr. Speaker, would you not know thai: the mE:~rnber who was the Minister of Transportation is a mernbc~r of whom SE:~nator RotAJE:~, t:he liberal Senator Rowe, says in a nurnber of h i.s books. "t:he DatAl<:' name is the oldest rE!cordE!d name i.n Net.>Jfoundl;:~nd .

" It .is reported that John Guy on his way to settle C u p ·i d ~; • r e p J. e n i. s hod h .L s tAla tc,~ r ~;uppJ.y at DC\t~Je 1 s t~Jell, .i.n 1610. Wo hi.We been i.n Concepl. :.i.on 11ay for a long time, Mr. SpE!aker. and IAJOI.IJd you not knotAJ !··.hat. sornetAJhere in Conception Bay, in proxirni ty to some road the Provi.ncial government was involVE!d in, somE! kilometre away from this particular paving, thE!re might bE• a person by the name of Dawe. And, Mr. SpE!aker, stretching that to :its ultimate, membE!rS of the Opposition decidE!d that somE!~lOW No . 52 R2802

this was the reason the roads were done. Mr. Speaker, as I .i.ndlcdtc~cl. peoplr:~ in this Province and most of the people in the media and others who looked at the situation, just laughed al il. But it caused some concern, and that is an issue for another day. r"'r.

Speaker, the Auditor GenE:'r'al says, 'In connection with my examination and based on the standard attributes and the verification of expE:~nditure, I have found that adequate procedures were followed in the calling and awarding of tenders relating to these! projects Rnd that adequate procedures were followed in authori.za l·.i.on paymenl: and recording of invoices relate'd lo these projects. ' Mr.

SpeakE!i~, I commend Lo ycHJ thr~ Auditor General's Report and point out that il is ln direct contradiC'tion to the statements wadr:~ by lhe HtEnnbr:~r t-or Fogo lAJhc~n he said that the former Minister ot- Trr.t.nsportati.on, and he could not have been referring to anyone else. As I understand i.t, the member for Fogo is a former Engli.sh teacher and he kn01~1s that if he re,ferred to 'a 1 Minister of Transportation it could have been any former Minister of Transportation, but when you refer to 'the 1 former Minister of Transportation, it can only mean the predecessor to the existing Minister of Transportation.

Mr. Speaker, thr.t.t is the specific. The genE,raJ. is what I alluded to at the beginning. I think this is pe,rhaps a more serious breach of privilege of the rnc->.mbers of this LegislaturE!, all han. mE:~mbers of th'i.s l .. ng.i.sla'l:l .lr'e, who have been duly elected and put L?.803 June 9, 1.988 Vol XI. here by the people of this Pr·ov.i.ncr~ nnd the constltu~;:~nts they represent. I can onJ.y . say, based on cotnmE:~nts rnadn to me by the member for St.

Barbe, and then lhal direction changed again a few days later, that it is a conccoHltl~a tE!d dt l:~;:~mp l: by l:he LE!adE!r of the Opposition, and I thtnk the events of the past number of weeks have indicated that it is continuing, to discn~di.t not only indi~idual members but to discredit this Legislature and the people of thts Provtnce this Legislature represents. Mr. Speaker, that is a VE!ry serious breach of my privileges ~nd the privileges of each hon . member in this Legislature. I co rnm i. l 1: hat l o You,~ Honour for what I arn sure wilJ.

CE!rtainly bE! an adjudication that uri.ll r·e ·F'lect what we have been seeing in cast ·i.ng doubt on Yo1.11n llonour in public statements, in casting dorJbi· on thf! mnmbor foi~ St . John's South, and in casting doubt on o 1.: h e r rrHHn b <~ i~ s of t: h L s L e g i s 1 a l: u r e , both inside the Legislature and publicly cts well. With Your Honour's indulgence, in order to substanti.ate and perhaps provide Your Honour with some insight. into tAJhat the Opposlti.on is trying to do in respect to thE!

LegislaturE! and to the membE:~rs herein, I would respectfully submit that Your Honour provide an opportuni. ty for one other member on this side of the House to comment on this particular po:i.nt of priviJ.ege, and I t h i n k i l: I~.Ji 11 b e c o rm~ c 1 <~ a r t o Your Honour, it wil1. be,cornE! clE,ar to the people in the gallery, it is certcd.nly clear to Tnli:'rnbers orr l::hls side of Ute Legtslature, and hopefulJ.y it will, and I am sure it l~lil.l OVlc!r ti .Tn(:~, bE:~COITIO Cl(-?.ar to the people of this Province the kJ.nd of backhandoc:l al::b:!lnpl: mr:HnbE!rs opposite are trying to make in No. !)~ R2B03

order to discredit this Legislature in its totality, and certainJ.y individuaJ. mE!mbers who have been duly elected by the people from their constituencies. I tAJould ask Your Honour. as I am sure Your Honour will, to pay attention to what I have outlined and respectfully r·equest lhal Your Honour permit an additional comment From thts side of ths !louse on what I believe, and I am sur·e aJ.l hon. me:~mber'!; t.1.Ji.J.J. agrse, j s cel~tainJ y a g1nos s breach of the privi.J.eg<:~:; or th.i.s J.cg.lslr:lturs .i.n what members of the Liberal Opposlt ·i.on arE! l:iny .Lng to do to this House. SOMF HON.

MEMBERS: Hear. hear! MR. TUI K: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : THe han. the member for Fogo . MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker. I am glad the han. gentleman finally has h-I.s rPseRrch done and under notice of priviJ.ege has now agreed to bring in this so-called point of privilege, as he chooSE!S to call i.l. Mr. Speaker, he attributes words to me, and he says I f·un an F:ngl i.sh teacher and, therefore, I should knotAJ thai:. '[ t.uas taJ.k i.ng abord lh(:~ former Minister of Transportr:ltion. II- h(~ IA.Ir:-lni ·.s me to b.:~ a bit mot~e specific. I tAJill say to him t:hr.d: T. I.1.JdS l:al!dng aboul: the nrember For St.

George's when I made that statement. SOMF.: 1101\J . MEM6F.:RS : Hear·. hear! MR. TULK: Mr. Spt:~a k E!r. improper use the of l.1.JOY'dS public L2804- June 9, 1988 ar·e. 11 An funds. 11 Vol XL Those werE! thE! words and they were said, I say to the hon. gentleman, very carefully. It is amazing that the hon. gen tlc"!man could refer that statement to Round Pound Road. How did he know what I was taJ.king about? How did thE! hon. gentJ.c:Hnan !<now l.I.Jhat I uJas taJ.king about if he did not have som'~ feeLi.ng h·Lmsolf t.hat t.h:is rndy have be~1n an improper use of publ.i.c funds?

Mr. ~')peakC'!r', I ask how .the hon. gentlE!ITlan knew l.I.Jhat I tJ.JrlS tr.dki.ng abouL. I do nol believe he will Find Round Pond Road anywhe:'n~ :i.n my staternC'!I'll.:. SOME HON . MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. TUL.K: Mr. Speaker, I say to the hon . gentleman, Y('!S. ther·e was an improper use of pubJ.ic funds in building that road. Does that accuse the hon. gentleman of stealing from the public purse? No, not quite. Not qu:l.te at aJ.J..

Does t.hi.'ll: say he used t·.he funds he was entrusted to use by the people of t h i s P r o 1; 'L n c ~1 • a s M i n i s t. e r of Transportation. properly? Again l:he anSI.AJE:~r is no, :l t doE:'S not. The han. gentleman did not use them FH'Op0.i"l.y. NoL•J, he refers l:o Lhe Auditor· Gener·al' s Report. I will tE:'J.J. him I~Jhc\l: l:he ()ud :i.l.Oi" Cc~nera'l.' s RE!po rt. says. iF he:~ is J.istening. so that h8 e<:Hl g•~l: i.i: straight.

Thr:~ Auditor General's Report says the conu~;:;tc; l.::> tAJer·e c:ttA.JardE~d de cording to the correct procedure procedure! lie rlid not s.~y thal: the funds were used in a proper manner. The Auditor G.:'neral di.d not say that the former Minister of TrRnsportat..ion, clS he nou.J is, was using public 'funds propE·r·ly. No. 52 R2804-

He did not say that at all. The tru l:h of the matlc:~r is, the hon . gentleman was using the funds i.HJproperly. All tAle are l:alking aboul: herE! i.s covered under

Section 19 of Beau c he s n e , C\ n cl t h .i. s L s a d J s p u i: E! between two hon. gentlemen about the facts in this case . Lei: mC: 1 USe SOmE! of his 01AJI1 letters: One dated to one Mr. Chuck Furey, M .H.A., Sl.

Barbe district, 'Concerning the upgarding of a branch road to four residential premises in Castor Ri.ver North, the r·eques t has been listed for future consideration, however, due to the r·athe:~r lengthy requests of a similar nature, I cannot make any commitment at this time when this road wilJ. be constructed at an estimated cost of $3,4-00. ' Yet it was fine, it was the proper use of publ ·ic funds · i.s l:hi'll: 1.11hat we are being told? - to construct a roi'ld lhctl: e:1nd(~d. r.'s tl1f~ rnc~1nb(~r· for Fortune - Hermitage (Mr. Simmons) and rnysGJ.I- ~;r.~w l.ds l.

Fc1.lJ., tAdth a trN~ in front of it, on a square bank, lead ·i.ng l:o h.Ls ot~.m relatives cabins. Was that proper? AN HON. MEMBER: That is not true . MR. TULK: Again to the member for Eagle River (Mr . Hiscock) : 'The cost to construct this road' - a road in Paradise RiVE!r ·-'is significant:: when considering the very small population of Paradise River.' l tell hirn there are forty hornes in Paradise River. Was Round Pond Road appropriate? The USE! of funds on Round Pond Road, was that appropriate in this particular case:1? 1.?.805 Jt1ne 9, 1988 Vol XL.

Let me give him some morE! of his otAlfl I..Uords, r.tddr·es scd l:o 'Mr. Seymour Green, North Boat Harbour Oevcl.opHHHlt Comm·.i.tl· :e:H:!, v·ia Cooks Harbour. I would like to point ot .li: l:haL you;n des.i.ros for a pav e:1d road is no different than thE• desirGs of residents of many communities throughout the Pro1Ji .nce, ctnd giv E~n l:hE! many demands placed on my department for road upgrl'ld'i.ng Clnd paving projects not all wishes of the communities CC\n be fulfilled.

When government is deciding its road prog1narn, pr·.ior·ity must be given to those areas where the need For r·oad i.mprovements is the greatest.' SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR . TULK: Round Pond Road - grE!at need for i rn p ;no u c 111 c~ n l: i. n r· o d d s ? Y E! s , t h e hon. gentleman was about to consl.rt1c:L r.l cabi.n, Mr . ~:lpeaker . l.el'. rne gJvP. 'Mr . Wilson 13elJ.r~tJur~ 1984-/12/11. MR. PATTERSON : him a no I-. her CaJ.J.an, d J s 1: r .i. c 1: , one to r-'1. H. A .• dated lie j_~; a good rndn. take you. We o.AJO u 1 d not MR.

TULK: You have nevc,~r had the-?. chance, rny friend, and you never wiJ.l . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Go on! Go on! MR . TULK: 'The department is not prepared to assume:~' ·- this t•Jas AndE!rson' s Cove Road - 'jurisdiction and provide rncti .ntenance to t.his netAJly requested

section of Anderson's Cove Road un1 : il i L has b~ :!en ungraded to a standard whereby the 1\Jo . !) /. R2B05

normal maintenance services can bE! provided without inconvenience or damage to our equipment. 1 I do not know hotJJ r.he equipment: coul.d get over Round Pond Road. I almost had to carry a small car. MR . SPEAKER: Order, please! MR . TULK : Now, Mr . Speaker, does he need more? MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! Order, please! n11 th101sE:1 si.tn-llar, ~;o 1nead mor'E:1. MR. TUI..K: letters there i. s are very no tlC:!Gd to Mr . ~3peaker, J.et rne:' gJt)E! you one that is a little different . This is to the member for the Strait of Belle Isle, Mr .

Chris Decker 1 To undertake the paving of Straitsview without undertaking the paving in other areas would be quite unfair. 1 Improper is another word for unfair . I say to the hon. gc-:!ntlernan, and I say to anybody who car·es to hear it, that he used Hw public funds of this Province improperly for the Round Pond Road . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

TULK : Ir he Wl'ln ts l·:o r·a.i.s8 Uw rnat-.l :e;-· i.n this !louse lo dispute that fact which .r make under a -fdlse gt!"i .:;t:' of pdvilege, then, I say to hirn, b o prepArE! d to do .i. t d 1: <Hl y t .i. rn l~ and I wilJ be prepared to respond c-.:1 t any t.i .me. 1\Jow, Mr. Speaker, let rne addr'e!;s the general ovE:1rall point the gentlc,1man i:i:=~lked about, 'in t;.Jhich L2806 June 9, 1988 Vol XL he accuses this sidE! of trying to smear members of this House. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. PEACH: Your Leader is a master at it, boy . MR. SPEAKER: Or·der·, please! MR. TULK: Mr .

Speaker, let rne tell _you wh clt .i.s really happ ening in thi s Legislature . The hon. gE:~ntlE!ITian, dJ.ong tAJ"i.'t:h lhe r·es i:. of h""i. s colleagues on the other side, know fuJ..l t.1J0.J.l that there has bE!CI'l a change of att:i tude on i:hE! part of l:h8 Oppos·i.·l::i.on in rPg<.~J~cl l::o t:.hc~d.r· conduct in this House. The hon. gentlemen knew they had painted themselves into a cornE!r, and noLIJ they are l:rying i:o take away the sting of the kind of misbEd1avior we hi:tVe se:::!n in this House, frorn that side, by saying that th E• Opposition is on a personal attack . Mr .

Speaker, I happen to J.ike the hon. gentleman somewhat as a person. As a person I happE!n to like him, but as a Minister of Transportation in this House - and I am obligated to question his action~; -· T say the hon . gentleman was not o n l y a d i s a s t E! r , b u t t hat , i.n fact, he,' di.d use funds tAJhich were entrusted to hirn by thE! FH~ o p l e o r -1: h i. s P r o lJ i. n c e oi m p r· o p e r· 1 y when he buiJ.t that piE!Ce of road thc\L J:::1d to notAJhC:11'(~ exct: 1pl:". to cabins be] onging either to himself or · 1-.o h·i.s f,:urd .l y. Those <.H 'e the facts of the case, Mr. Speaker.

Th0. hon. gontleman l'ld~; J'H:1VE:1r disputed those facts . He cannot d·lspute those facls, because it was as plain as thE! paVE!mE:1nt on U1e:1 ro,:td not tho nose on your face, the paVE!mE!nt on the road where it was going . No . 52 R2806

Mr. Speaker, if the bon. gentl.~~man '"'a n ted to d t s put e thE! fa c t s , then , T s i'1. y to h :i rn , h '~ c o 1.1 J. d h <'llJ e done it last Fall - MR. DAWE : I did. MR . SIMMONS : WhE!n ho IJ.JC\S duck.i.ng :i.nl:o ol(~lJators. MR . TULK : when he was elevators trying to the cameras. ducking into gr:~t cl.E:~Clr' of Mr. Speaker, he also referred to the Auditor General saying 'this was done consistent with the policies of the Department of Transportation.' The Auditor General must have bc:H:~n a prophet, because he was exactly right .

Through block funding, this minister became very well known as the Minister of Pork BRrrelling, but, in this particuJ.ar casl':1, hE! went ovr:H·board C1. litU .e too Fr.~r . DR. COLI. .TI\JS : Would the han . member permit a quesL:Lon? MR. TUI..IC : No, Ml". Speaker. I am on a point of prlvilogc. l:f lhe hon . gE!ntlentan wants to get up and s pea !< a FtC:~ n.\lc'l r d s , h (~ can . Mr.

Speaker, what we soe hero, what WE:~ have SE!en by the Government House L(~ac:IGr, the Minister of Health, and now the Minister of Transportation · I am wondering why Your Honour is letting it go on - in the last three attempts by those three han . gentlemE!n, is an attempt to muzzle this Legislature, under the guiSE! of privilege. MR. PATTERSON : (Inaudible) after the next L280'7 June~ 9, 19B3 lJoJ. XL eJ.oction . MR. TUI..I< : My friend, I hope you call the next e J. 8 c: i: Jon now. You I" retirement would be over, and we tuou1d be in I:JOlJeinnment . Mr.

Speaker, we have now spent thE! bes l: p.:~r l of thlrty minutes on this point of plnivilegE! tJJhich is not a polnt of priu.Llege. This is thE! third timE! in as many days we haue h~d this done. It is a consistent attempt by the gover·nmC:~nl~ to rnuzzl.E:! the Opposition. I say to the han. gentlemE!n, through the SpE!aker, that this side of the House IJJiJ.l not bc1 muzzled IJJhen it cornes to talking about what is wrong in this ProvinCE! . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. TULK : If we belieue the Minister of Health is in conflict as thE! M:i.n:i .~; l:r:!r of lleall ::h, IAIE! IAitll say so.

If we believe the hon . g en ll c:! l'fJC\ n 11 G c,~ d f 1.1 n d s i rn p r· o p (:~ r l y , tue wi 11 say so . DR. COLLINS: i-or lllhctl : flllrposr~ d.i .d h8 USE! thorn? MR. TULK: For what purpose did he use them? DR. COLLINS: Yes, tor what purpose? MR. fULl<: To build a road to now hE! rE!, go:i. ng novJhere. DR. COLLINS: For his own profit . MR. TULK: Going nowhere, Mr . Speaker . 1\Jo. 52 R2B07

DR. COLLINS : You i.'lre accusi .ng the hon. member of using money (inaudible). MR. TULK: r arn accusing the hon. gentJ.ernan of using funds improperly to build a road to his own relatives 1 cabins, and we know he did it. MR . DAWE: That is not true . MR . SIMMONS: The public profit. MR. SPEAKER: Order, p.l.cc:lsc! MR. TULK: CE~rb:cinly No, the public certainly profJt. cl i.d not did not 1\J ou.1, M r .

Speake i" , T s cl y 1.: o , '( o 11 ,~ Honour, that what is happening here is an attempt to distract this House and to muzzle it, and to haue the government side of the Legislature ride roughshod over this Province and, I say to Your· Honour, that should not be allowed to continue. and that the next time the hon. gentleman chooses to rise in his place on a spur·-.ious point of priviJ.ege, as has been happening the last two or three days, Your Honour should immediately call him to order. Thank you very much. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear. hear! MR. RUTT: Mr. Speakei". MR.

SPEAKE I~: ThE~ hon. the Minister· of Culture, Recr·ecll:ion and Yo11U1. MR. BUTT: Thc:1n!< yotl, Mr. Speaker . L2808 JUnE! 9, 1988 Vol XL I would like to make a brief submission For Your Honour on this matter. Since the road in question is in the district of Conception Bay South, I want to jus I:: cl.ari.fy a few things. The comments made just recently by the Opposition House Leader, by the way. wer•e to thE! effE!Ct that this road leads to nowhere. M r .

S p e a k e r , i n 1 9 7 9 • tAl h e n I lAJ a s el.ec .ted to this LE!gisl.ature, most. of the roads under thE! controJ of the Department of Transportation in the district of Conception Bay S011th WBi"O not pi'llJE!d; i:her•e I~JE!rE! gravel roads alJ. oVE!Y' thE! placE!, fdi" too many. fls the forrnE!r Minister of Transportation points o u t: • ~; :L n r: e 1. 9 7 9 • I s cl y rn o ck! s t 1 y • through some effort on my part, thei"r~ hr'lve b0.<~n $:Jl m·i.llton spent t.o address that. SOME HON. MEMBERS: llc;:~r, hea1n! MR.

BUTT: To zero in on the road in question, Round Pond Road, Round Pond Road is no different, Mr. Speaker, than any other road in the Topsail Pond, Three Island Pond area. It just so happens that in this case relatives of the Minister of Transportation - not him but his relatives - had land a kilometre in the road from there. Now, Mr. Speaker, we have been sqlH:1etky clei"ln on thi.s. As a matter of fact, I would havE:~ J.ikE!d to h i"\lJ e p 1.1 i.: t h <:-1 t r· o <'1 d C:'l r· o u n d t. o connect with another road, going ln Angel 1 s Rodd, which was done the previous year. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. m:i ni s ter is not s pE!aki ng to the point of order. No. 52 R2808

MR. BUTT: Okay, Mr. Speaker, I will zero in. Because of the sensitivity of land in question, the road was only bu i.lt to lhe end of L•Jhc-)r'e a rezoning was taking place to permi.l: resi.denl:ir.d. build·i.ng. Tn fact, I had requests, writtE:~n rc~que:;ts f;nom const:L t11ents IJ.Jho wanted to build there. I say this for Your Honour'~; bc~nef.ii:., l~o po:int out that, in fact, it no LJJaY refl.ected on i:he f·or·rner M:i.n:i.ster· of Transportation, but on the me m b (~ in for Co n c e plio n B.:-1. y ~3 ()II t h who wanted to have that road paved. Brie-f as it is, Mr. SpE:H-l.ker, that is the fact.

It has be!en brought out by the Auditor General when he investigated, and so on. So every single matter brought forward today by the hon. member for St. George's is true and factual. Tt is just another - MR. PATTERSON: Nail in their coffin . MR. BUTT: That is right. It is just the 0 p p o s i l i o n pi c k i n y o 1 1l · i. ncb 1d. d u R 1 ministers over here, trying to d E:~ s 1: r o y l h cd r c h a r ,~ c b~ I" · c'l. -1.: g r c~ ;:-d: expense, I might say, to that Jfli::ll1 1 :; Fc:Hn:i.ly, 1..\Jh:i.l.e they arr~ do i.ng H: - and :i.n so doing, Mr·.

Speaker, I lh .i.nk the hen. rnetnber·' s privileges were breached and I ask You1n llonour to j 11ci9E! r.tc;corcl:i.ngl.y. SOMF. HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: I will recognize the hon. member for Menihek now. MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker, to tell you the truth, I found that whole SE!ries of events I went through, along with, I think, the Minister of L2809 Juno 9, 1988 Vol. XL TransportaU.on at l::he l::ime:~. l:·.o be a very distasteful E!XperienCE!, and one, I found in retrospect., · I wished I had not gone through, but reallzed in retrospect that it was very important to do that.

The:~ qUE!stion you have ber:~n asked n 01~1 j_ ~' : Is l: h (~ e1 1 J. e g c1. 'l: :ion by members of the Liberal Party that f 1 1 n d ~; 1-'1 (! i" C:' .i. tn pro p E! r·l. y s p ('! n t , or impl"operly comrnil:t.E:~d. a breach oF the hon. membt:!i"' s pri.,ri.l.E!9E!? I think that is u.Jhat you are going t o h a 'J e t o ct cl cl r e s s . Persona1ly, I would hope that you 1..\JO ul d r ul o t h a t IAH::l y , 11 o t be c au s E!

I think there is a brE!ach, but because I ·thin!< i.t is appropric:~te that this Legislature is eventually given an opportunity for everybody to listen to all the details of that particular episode. I think it is important thRL is should have been aired here. The fact that the l_egislaturc~ tJJas closEH1 was one of the frustrations we went through ell: the time.

And t.h€~ M:inist.<:!r fo1n Transportation at the time obvio1 .1sly had a pr·obh~m, t.oo, because he could not respond to the:~ th.i.ngs thai: tJJcH·e bE:~ing r·aisE:~d. r.JJ in , s p (:' 0 k e in I :i. n J. 0 0 ld 11 g t: h r () l.J g h the Conflict of Interest gll·i.deJ.-i.ne!;, oi.n re:~lrospoct, the flaw in them is the

section whereby lhe Premier ls the sole judge of whether a conflict has oc:c;urred, ctnd lht:'lt is l:he probl.t:'m that we had with it. There is no doubt in my mind that what was spent was improperly spent, in thE! sense that it was immoral to spend money on that particular road in that particular w:ilderness. leading to the member's family's cotl:agE:~s. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! No. 52 R2B09

MR. FFNWICK: It was immoral that people on that part of the road had tried years ago to get pc-:~rm:i.ss:Lon to build houses there and were told they could not becaus~~ it u.Jas not. paved, and, more importantly, was not maintained by the Department of Transportatjon.

They, therefore, sold these lots al·.: a very low price and, later on, when people picked th(,~ITl up and the road then became maintained, which I think is an even bigger conflict. myself, thE! property values up there ar-e much highc-:~r as a r-r:~suJ.l: of those activities, aJ.l of which ar('! undr:~r th(,~ contr-ol of th(~ Minister of Transportation. Mr'. SpeakE!r, ctll:hough I do nol: like going over this situation b e F o r' e u s , T cl m c o ntJ J n c e d J n rn y ou.u·1 mind that what was donE~ was consistent: wJ lh the u.Jay .i.

L IAJas described by the member for Co n c e p t. i o n B cl y So 1.1 t h (r•l r' . B ' 1 1:.1. ·. ) • I believe that he is the inditJi.dudl tuho ask(~d Fo1~ th<~ road to be paved. The conflict was of thE! thctt the Ministsr Transportation, knowing property behind the road, should have then told the Premier that he had a personal interest in what was going on ·there and he should have done that in writing, according to the way the Conflict of Interest Regulations were written. I wrote the Premier and he IAJroh:~ mr:~ back say -Lng no such lettE!r exists, and that is whE!rE! the conflict its('!lf exists.

Not that he initiated it, but that hE! passed it on to the Cctbinet for approval without signifying his interest in the whole aFFair. Mr.

Spectk('!r, thr.tl: and f:l ~AJhoJ.e bunch of ot he1n things, IAJhich I IA)OI 1J.d be t;ery gJ.ctd ·I:. a go 1:hr·ough again ·- ~AJel1, not glad, but I 1..11011ld go U11~0119h e~gcti .n rndke Ill(! l.2810 June 9, 1988 Vol XL say that even though I do not b e Li. e t; e t h cl +: -L t .i. s a v i o 1 ct t. i o n o F the pr·ivileges of the ·member,· I, for one, would be very happy to get everything in Hansard, ever-ything on th(:~ r't:!cord, produce all the documentation we have, because, Mr.

Speaker, there are people out there who WE!rE! hurt in Ud.s whole pr'OCE!SS, :in addition {:o the minister, the mE!mber for St. Georgr:~ 1 s, peoplE! who soJ.d pr·opel''ty at a VE!ry 1ow price only to find out later that through other actions on thE:~ par't of the Department of Transportation and on the part of thE! governrnE!nt, thE! J.and became much rnorc,~ valw:'l.b1E:~ and they lost out as a result of it. These people, ln my opinion, should, quite frankly, SUE! 'l:hE! g OLJ er'nrne nt For reclrc:! s s, but ti'lf:' y have not at this point.

I would ~>i'IY to you Lhat .if thE! rrwrnbE!r 1 s privileges are not breached, if y o 11 cl o no l: I ALi s h to go t.: hat IAJa y , then another avenue may be that Uw offi .ci.al opposil'i .on, ourselves and the government, may wish to haue a spE:~cial debe:1l:.E! on l::he circumstances of what lAJent on at Round Pond Roc1d. I, ·for one, would be very glad to open it r:~galn, dnd I thi.nk everybody else should hear about it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WELLS: Mr. SpE!aker . MR. SPEAKER: The hon. t:h<~ LcadE!Y' of t. hE! Opposition . MR. WELLS : Thank yo11, Mr. ~3p(!i:d<E!r .

T 1.11 .i. ll j w; t: b ~~ t; E! r y b 1~ i. e F . I cannot and I do not att1nibute any mot-.:i.t;:;!s Lo UH~ hon. rneiTII:H~l~ For' St:. No. 52 R2810

Georgo' s. I have not, up to now, and I will not, attribute any motives. I do not know why he paved that road. I do not know, c\nd I s l~.ill cannot undc~rs land why he allowed that road to be paved. The Facts thi'll: have bE!I:Hl alJ.c,~ged are facts. Anybody who wants to, can dr'c\IJ.J tJJhal:c:~vor conclttsions they JAd s h from j t. That it was i.mproper in the pol .. it ·i.r:r.~J Sf~nse l:o pave that 1noad, I think eVE!J"ybody r:dn make that jttdgcutent and corne clearly to that conclusion. I: arn goi .ng to addrt~s~; my r~~rne1.rks in the main, Mr .

Speaker, to the comm~::~ni:s of the hon. mE!llJber 1.1.1i th respect to what he called the gc~ner·al, dnd h"i.s suggestion to this House that is was part of some kind of scheme orchestrated by me to disrupt the House and make terrible statements. Nothing could be more untrue, Mr. Speaker, or incorrect. No judgement could be more incorrect than that. On the othE!r hand, l~.he mernb~::~r for Fogo was quite correct when he suggested that. what we Rre seeing with thE!Se points of privilege is an attempt. to gag and muzzle the Opposition.

The Opposition has a r·esponsibili .ty they must di .schcH'gc and they JAJill dis charge, M1n. Spec:·lker . 1 can tcdl thr. hon. gen ·Uernan, and all other han. genl::J.errHHl, and t~.he han. J.Rdy in thi~ House, that I take no pl.ec:t~>ttre Jn criticc :\Jly cornment ·.i.ng personally on any one member of thi.s House no rnall.:er· who :i.t is. It is a source of great rE:~gJnet to me thdt i.t 11dS on occRsi.on to be done, because that is the responsibility oF the Opposit.:ion. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I assure han . members that we will not shirk from that responsibility no matter how rnflny points oF pr·lvi .lege they raise. It is not only quite L2811 June 9, 1988 Vol. XL propE!r, i.t -Ls our· responsibility to raise these questions when thE! facts and circumstances tJJarrant it, Mr. Speaker, and we wjJ.l not be dr:~tE!rr·~::~d fr·orn do·oi.nq so by claims of breach of priviJ.ege and by suggestion that our acti .ons cAre in any manner improper. TherE! is, T s ugg~:-~st t:o yo11, Mr.

Spc~aker, no prima facie case of privilege, but T. do IAJani: to ornpi'JCl.~d.ze Lhi:tt iF Your Honour is disposed to so F :i. n c:l , IAH :~ h <.w o n o r· (~ 1 u c ti:-Hl c e l o debate any motion that is btnought ci OI~Jn . SOME HON . MEMBERS : li E!i:'l r , I·H~ a r ! MR . SPEAKER : Order, please! I am going to study what hon . members had to say, and after the weekend I should be abJ.e to ruJ.e on Uw mattE!r. Before calJing for Statements by Mi.nistc~!rS, I JJ.JRnt to welcome 30 Grade VIII students 1.uith four t.eac hers, Clayton Brenton, Marys town LorrRine McCarthy, and Shari Central High SOME HON.

MEMBERS : il(~ar, hoflr! MR. SPEAKER : I lAiould also like UAJtHJI:y i-i.ve Ginade lX with their teacher MacKinnon, Kathleen Wall, from School. to W(~!lCOHIE! studE!nl::s, Mr. Ron s u 11. 'i. lJ i'\ n ' r in 0 m Harbour GJnace. ( ... _,_ • .) l.. F r "' n c i. s ~3 c h o o l. , SOME HON. MEMBERS : ilc~dr, l'lE:~c\r! MR . SPEAKER: And thir·ty Grade V studenl:s fJnorn St. Paul's School, NE•wfoundJ.and Drlve, with the:dr t:each(:~r, Mr. Williams, and Chaperon, Mrs. Evans . No . 52 R2811

SOMf liON. MfMBERS: H~~ar, he~r! MR. SPEAKER : The han. the leader of the Op~osilion . MR. WELLS: Mr. Speaker, before calling for Statements by Ministers, ( haue spoken to the han. the Deputy Pr'E!mier about. l:his matb,~r and told him I would address this. I lAJOLJld like, Mr. Speaker, to ask all members of this han. House to join with me in congratulations to a young man who is part of this House, and who has just stepped behind Your Honour 1 s Chair in the cour·sc~ of his duties, i;l.ncl is carrying on his duties, upon achievtng a ve:~ry pr·8sU .gioiJS aLAJard.

On SattJrday, he:1 will be aiAJarded the Duke of Fclini:HJrgh GoJ.d Award. HE:~ LA.Jill travel to Cor·ner Hrook to recelue th~t award. SOME liOI\J. MEMB 1:: RS : HPcH', he:1ar! MR. WE.l.l.S: Mr. ~3p(~aker, thesE:1 awcu"ds off101r our young people opportunities to broaden their tnterest and experience in areas of physical fitness, community service, outdoor exploration, and development. oF pE:~rsonal and soci.al s k i 11 s . That award is not easy to achieve.

It is not awarded merely for entering and making an application, it is awar·d~::1d on thE! basis of performance and discipline and commitmE!nt. . nd.s young man has done all this and achieVE!d this atAJar·d. And if hon. mernbE!rs want sorne measure of Lhe significance of this p~rU.cuJ.~r· award, :it can only be aLAJarded or del i.tH~red by ~ tnE!mber of :·:he :?oydJ. Family, as opposed to the other D11kc~ of F.:cli.nbltr·gh av..Jr:-,rds. L2812 JUn<c' 9, ]988 Vol XL Mr.

SpE:1akE:'r, I think this spE!aks L~W ll o f i'l y o 1 1 n g rn ~ n LJ.J h o s i i.: s e lJ e r· y day and l~ushes around at our beck d n cl c ~ J J. , i'l n d J t h .i. n k IAH~ a 11 o u g h t. to join and give him a VE!ry t.~Jarm round oF dppl.dUSE:~. S'incer'P congratulaU .ons! SOME HON. MEMBERS: HE:1ar, hecir! MR. WELLS: It is incidentally . his name. MR. SPEAKER: John I did Fitzgerald, not mention ThE! hon. the Minister of CuJ.turE!, Recreation and Youth. MR. BUTT : Thank you, Mr . Speaker.

Wr:1, too, on this sidE!, would t o a s s o c i d l: e o 1.1 r s o l v e s IAJi. t h remar·ks of the Leader of want i::he the Oppo:d.l.::i.on. As~ mal:i.er of Fc~ct, Mr.

Speaker, on Saturday of this lllf~0.k f u.d1l. be ·~o :i.ntj 1-.o Cor·nt'!l~ Brook to participate in the cc-~rernon:i.es w:llh /lis Royal Highness, Price Edward, after which appropridte recognition there is no problem in doing it nOLA! ;:~nd ( IAJelcomr:! the opporl:un:i.ty, but there will be others, very !>mall in number but very f:ine Newfoundlanders, who will receive similar al.~o.Jards -Ln Cor'ner Brook on Saturday, at which time the government will g:ive appropriate recognition. I do not have all the names of tht::' recipiE!nts r·ight now, but I wiJ.l know them on Sdturday.

I tAJelcornE! the lead taken by the Leader of the Opposition in thi!> cc~'sc,1, and certainly we, on this side, a s s o c i d 1-. c o u r s e l tJ E:1 s w i t h t h e v E! r y positive remarks on one our newest Pages ·i.n t:he HOI.IS0.. :)DrJf E 1101\J. MFMBEf~S : No . 52 R2812

Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member· for· Menihek . MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker, we would also like to take the opportun:i l:.y to congratulate our - I do not know wha L you would call him. Colleague? - probably future col.le:~ag11e, I IAJOIIld hope, for· hi~; accomplishments and the r·~!cognibon of h:i.s .:1ccompl:i.shrnent.s and thE:~ awcu~d that he IAJill be receilJJ.ng. On bohaJ r or· Ollt' s i g n j f i cant c au c u s here , we !AtO u 1 d 1 :i. k e L o '='xi· ·. c,~ n d o 11 r con g ,~ f.l t 11 J. i'l t .Lon s as welJ . SOME l-ION. MF.MBF.RS: Heal", hear! Statements by Ministers DR. COLLINS : Mr.

SpeakE:1r . MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Minister of Health. DR. COLLINS: T.llr. Speaker, the hon. the Prl;!Tn~i .er is engaged in other duties, as I am sure hon. members are aware, and I make this statement on his behrlJ.f, i.n hi .s r·oh! RS Minis t-.er oF l.ne1ngy . l t is ruy pleasure and privilegE:~ to labl.<~ for thl::! inFor·rn<:tL :i.on of· 1ny colleagues in the House of Assr:nnbJ.y, "O.i .l And Gas RE:~SOIIr'ces Of NetAtfoundJ and and Labrador, 11 t hat :i. s t h o n d me o f <;t d o c urn~=~ n t , Mr·. Spe:~akC:H', which wilJ. accompany t.h"i.s sl:a ·Leme:1nt.

TL i.s a r~:~port which provides an up-to-date rev~i.ew of t·:he:1 petr·olc,~•Hn pote:~n t il'll and the latest events which bear on the development of that L2813 June 9, 1988 Vol XL potent-ial . For some time now it has been ob1Ji.ous that th<':~rC:1 has been a real need for a high quality report tAJ~dch prOlJ"i.cles infor·rnation on our petroleum development situation for the benefit of potential investors and other financial and de v e 1 o pHH :~ n t J n b- } r c:! s t ~; t.o~ti thin and outside of the Province. I bel:i.eue that this document produced by the staff of th E!

DeprH 't-.menl-. of f.nei"9Y ftll.F .i1Js this need and pi~esents cornprEd'1E~nsiVE! ·i.nforrnaU .on on Olli" potr·ol.< :!UITI potential in an at tractive and re~dily d·i.gestlble form. The information contained in the r~1po1~ L pro1;id~~s l:ho re?.ctder with a broad outline of the importance of the Newfoundl.and petroleum resource within the context of the nation<:~.l pet.rolot~m supply cAnd demand situation.

It describes the geol.ogicctl s~1tting of the Province - both onshore and offshore - and outlines the evolving legislative and administrative framework for the management of exploration and development of the petroleum resource. It highlights the :i 111 p r e s s 'i. v e s 1 1 c c e s s r· at i. o of petroleum exploration on our conli.n~:~nl:aJ. mr:-tr•g.i.n par·L · . .i.cul.ar·l.y in the Grand Banks area - and cle<:=trly "i.ndicr:=ttes the i:ldV<:-lnced nature of both Hibernia and Ten·a Noua as development prospecLs.

Other significant discoveries t~Jiri.ch ha1.Je L;:~kr,H1 pli :~Cl:! in r·ec~ :!nl :: ye:~ar·s are also dE!SCI"il:wd. IL J n C .lt I d e S t' 8 f e I' I?J n C: 0 'i: 0 l: h e Come-By-Chance refinery and pro 1)J cl (:1 s d l:1 U-d J. s abo u t: rn cl j o r projects funded under the Offshore Dc,'ueJ.opmcnt: Fund. I mlght add, Mr. Speaker, it also refers to onshore possib"i.lities for oil resources. No. 52 R2813

Equdlly trnpori:i:l.nt the r'C:1polnl·. :.i nd:lcates thE:' dE:1termina'tion of thE! government to c:~nstli~E:1 Lhr.\'1.: t.ht.! peopJe, the business community and 1: h <:~ :i. n s 1-: :i. ·1·.11 t Jon s o f l: h E:1 Pro lJ :i. n c f.! take ever·y opportunity to improve t. h l~ "i r· s k J 1. l s <'111 cl E! x p E:~ r· 1: · i. s e t n l: h e highJy sophj sticated sphere of offshore petroleum technolo~y. It ts our· "intention to us£:1 thi~; report as a promotional document to increctse awareness in Canada and abroad as to the importance of the Province 1 s petroleum resources. Mr.

Speakc:~r, I did gi.v~~ the han. the Leader Opposition (Mr. Wells) belatedly, but he has a may wish to comment also. MR. WELLS : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPFJlKf.:R : The han. the Leader· Oppo~dt.i.on . MR. WF.Ll.S : a copy to of the s ome1.~.1ha t copy. He of the Mr. ~)pedker, [ h<•w0. nol: had t:1n oppo1nt:unity to look at the dOCI.IInC:Hli:. bl:~Ci:HISe, s i.nc:e I h i'\lH! gotten j.t, 1.ue have (~ngage:'d. bec,~n otherwise T. clo IAJ<:1lcorne:~ stJch ctn pt1bl:icc:1t.'i.on.

Assuming it contains basically Factui'll i.nfor-rni'l t:ion I c:\S l:he han. minister indicated, it can provide readily available information for anybody who was interested in it, people in Nc:~IAJfoundland, as \).Je11 i3.S people investing in Nev.Jfoundland. So it is a commendable effort from that point of view.

My OrH·) caution to fH:loplc;! in Newfoundland, in particular, is not to get cRr-ri.ed atAJi.'\y r.tgdin by the now nev..1ly created hype in 1-1 i b E! r n -i Cl • I f r:1 n d IAJ h e n H i. b (:H' n i. i'l comes, and I sincerely hope it I./. 8 ll~ Juno 9, 1.9BB lJ o l X 1.. doe s s h o r t J.y , :i. t IAri. 1 J. c 1~ E:~ i'l. t e a great many jobs in this ProvinCE! ;:md lrtr:~ke:.~ r.1 gr·ec.d ·. con l:l"ibution economically to the Province. But let us not all think it is go-.i.ng to be the:~ bE:1 all and end all for NE:1wfoundland. It is not goj ng 1:. o b (! L h e s o J. t~ s a v j_ o 1 1 r .

We s 1:. i 11 have to look at alJ. our other things in this Province and pay grE!ater attE!ntion to the r·est of the economy of this Province. So, as good as this may be in terms of providing information and making it. readily available to people within the Province and without who may want it, I caution people not to get too carried away with great expectations out of Hibernia. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hc,~c'lr'! MR. FENWICK: Mr . Spea I< E!r' . MR. SPFAI<F.R: The.~ hon. Lhe rnotnb(;H' for Menil·wk . MR. fENWICK: Mr.

Speaker, I was looking at thE! brochtlr'e he;"e, sol""l-. of Fl. i.pp:.Lng through :it and trying to remembE!r when 'T. 1<·1st SdiAJ i'l brochtH'e similar to it. I think the last one I saw IAJdS j;>~lt out by Mr. SmalltAJood bcl<:k in the 1960s and it was HH :' onE! lc-.luding t:h<,~ hydr·o pol:ent:-.ia1 ·.in Labrador and saying how much energy we had up there and how much we could do with it. The r·~~a son I Tnf~nt-i. on +.:hat. now is because I feel we are in a similar posi.i:ion here;!. MR. BAIRD: We sre not giving anything away . MR . FENWT.CK: The judgement on the Peckfor·d ~.Jo . r;?. R28l4 .

administration will not be on anything other than the way in which they handle whatever development deal '"'ill occur, t.uit.h not only Hibernia, but the Terra Nov a s t r· u c t 1.1 r· e . We h a v e t hi s v l-:1 r y uneasy feeling in a world where the r c~1 i. s a 12 mi ll:i on bar· t' (~ l cl dRy surplus of oil, that signing an agr(:!ernent over Hlis pr:1r·.iod of l::"i.mr:1 is an extremely chancy thing, one w~1.i c h WE-) may l i IJl-:1 to r l-:~ g r 1::~ t. ton or twenty or thirty years from now. T.

SRY l-.o the government oppo!d.l:e, I do not care whe n you are going 1: o c i'l l. 1 t h !::1 c~ l. e c U. o n , I rl o n o -L k now hot.u you ar'E:1 going to call it, I do not: cr::~r0 '"'hal: ·.i.sstt(~!; you are go:i ng to WOI"i< t.ui th, if you sign a lousy cler:\l., IAJe IAJ:i.ll r11n you CIH)ry s:ingle inch of the way. MR. I..ONG: HeRr, hc,~dr! MR. FFNWICK : We will tell you, we are not going to go in for another Churchill. Falls deal just because you want to get re-elected. Wc~1 ar'E! go··Lng to demand we get something out it in employment and in l.ong-t(H'tn rE!Venue.

Quite frankly, what 1.ue are seeing today leads us to b~:1J.ic~ve t.ue r:\re going into another disaste!r. Ml~ . LONG : Hear·, hear! Well said . MR. WARREN: Mr . Speaker . MR. SPFAKER: The h on . 1: h (:1 M ·i. n j_ s 1:. f:11" or 1\J or t h r:! r· n DE!VeJ.opm~:!nt.. rl!R . Wt1RI'~EI\J: Mt". Speaker·, I am pleasr:1d announc0 the s"i.gnin9 oF federal-provincial agreements to t.IAJO for L2815 June 9, 1988 Vol XI.. the benefit of the Native peoples of Labr·Rclor·. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. WARREN: T~w l'19t'(~~em~~n l::s rH'e ·for· a one-yr,~ar period and are extensions to th(:!

Canadd-Newfoundland Inuit Agreement and the Candda .... Nr,~u.JfoundJ.ancl Innu Agreement, valued at a total or $9.9 m:i.J.l. ·i.on. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hoi'\1", her-.lr! MR. WARREN; The agreements make available fttn1:1'i ng and pl"O<.F'r.\mmi .ng :i.n :><'!VlH'al areas, including: u.Jater· c~nd set.uage, housing, communiLy development, education, training, f' :i. s h f:H' i. l::~ s a n d , o f c o lH' s e , t: h e operation of the five government stores. Communiti.es primarily involved in the agreements are Nain, Hopedale, Postville, Makkovik, Rigolet, Davis InJ.ed: and S ~w s hat s hi t . Mr.

Speaker, ·1:hE:~sr:1 agreemE•nts WE!re extended for 1988-1989 to alJ.ow time for comprehensive and detailed planning of new long-term rlgre~~tnl-:Hlls to t.r'll<e:~ place bE•tt~J~ :!en the Native peoplE! of Labrador and t:ht1 fc~~d(~raJ. dnd t.:hc:! prOI).inci.cll g o v e r· rmH~1 n t s . I would also like to thank the lnll·i.l·. i:lnd Inrllt people:! of Labr ·ador· for the positiVE! and pt"Ofli:~ssional manner· ·.i.n lllh i ch l·hey rH'G proceeding with the planning l he I'H:1lAI ~> r o c e s s a n d l 1:. r· 1 1 s ·l·: t h a t long--t.errn agreements will SE!r'VE! as i'\ mode]. ror· t:he futt Jre. Mr.

Spe!aker, there was i.n gel~ing these agreements put in force, No. 52 some delay extension and that R2815

was due to unfortunate arlrni.rd~>t.:r·at::i•J(~ c·i.rcurnstr.tncos. Hot.uevel", as I announced on Apt"il l3, Lh<:~ Pi"O•Ji.nce, U1r:~ Go•J<·)r11HH)r1i:. of Newfoundland and Labrador, sh:~ppod Jn ctnd conunc :!nced cotmnrtn ·i.i:y funding in thli:~ absEHlce of signed agreelllents l:o ct•Jo i.c:l ."'\ny adrl :i.l.: :i.onF.\1 hclrdship for the communities and Uw l1c1nd CortncLJ.s Lhr.t-1: t:h i.s dc ,~J.ay IJJOUld CciUSe. Mr. Speaker, the hon. Minister· of I nbH'go v E! n11nr:~ nb'1 1. Af fc;1 ir·s , 1·: hr:~ han. Ron DatJJE!, and myself signE!d those c:'tgrE!emc-:~nts for the Provtnct,~ and the hon.

William McKnight, Minister of Indian and Northern Affairs, signed on behalf of the federal government. I tJJould once agc.dn, Mr·. SpeakE!Y', in conclusion, thank the Native people of Labrador for their support of these agreeme~ts and congratul.i.'lte both t.:ht:1 fc-:!derdl. <Hlcl provincial officials on finalizing i·:.ht~ negol.:"i.dti.ons l<:~(:ld.in•::J to Lhc-:~ signing of these two documE!nts. MR. KEL LAr.JD : Mr·. Sp<:~c:tker . MR. SPF.AKCI~: The hon. the-:! mE!fnbet" for Nas kaupi. SOME liON. MFMBFRS : H e a r· , h e a , .. ! MR .

KELLAND : I thank the minister for a copy of o n e:~ o f h 'i. s r· "' r· E! s t. at 1:~ mE:~ n t s t n i:: h «::1 HOUSE:~. My initial comment, Mr. Speaker, is I tJJould not tJJant anyone to b«::~ misled or have the issue clouded because the tt:H'm 'Nat-i.v<:~ P«::wpll:!S 1 Agreement• is USE!d, and that is used in the context of cl.oudtng the issue that this is nothing mor·«::~ than yr:~t . ctnotl'lHr l:~XtE~ns-i.on to a federal - provincial agreeiTIE!nt, L2131.6 June 9, 1.98B tJol XL . on which the Peckford r.u:lm:i.n:i.:;trat i.on seems to thr·ive.

T can think of the Coastal Labrador ~·::Jt'E!(!IIIenf: r.Hld thE:~ Rur·aJ. Development Agreement tJJhich cannot l:w p11t: :i.n p.lr'1CC :i.n Limo, desp-Lt:.C:! what is supposed to be the optimum condi .t·i.ons bei::I~HHHl Ol.:i.:diAid and this Province, and a forrn of crisis flli'Hli.:'I9C-)If18111: l.:r:~kes plt'ICe.

Ar·ound thE! eleventh hour an E!Xtension i.!; t~Jotnked 0111 ~ . ~)o all thE'! mi.n.i.ster is talking about is an E!X'lE!ns.ion l~o c:Hl C:1grr,'t'!l"nent bE!CC\IJSE' of the;! inability of Ottawa and the provincial gouarnment here to reach a long-term agrE!eme nt tAJhi c h, by thts timr:~. should already be in place. Although it is probably i n d d v (,~ r t c,~ ,., t. , M r· . S p e a k E:1 r , I f :i. n d the ministE!r 1 s choice of words a little patronizing to the Native people. Of course, thE!Y arE!

S(~ri.ous ;:~bo1.1l.: .-i.l·., of course, they are positive about it, and of COIIr'Sl-:~ Lh(~y iH'E! profrdSSi.Ondl. about reaching agreements with the ProtJ i.nc'~ dnd IAJ L l:h Ol:i.:arJ.Ja. 1.,11·1y would they not be if their present t.uay of l:i.fc •'1nd l:he.i.r· frtl·.ur·(~ hangs in the balance? I find those C OlflmEHl (: :; l: 0 b{) cl 1 i. t i:.J. f.:' condescending and patronizing, p()lnhdps Jnad•JE:~r· l:cnt on i.:hl'~ par·t of the minister and pe:~rhaps hE:! should IJ1 k e s 1: e p s L o a J. 1. c,~ u i ~~ t ~:' l.: hat. impression.

I do not believe the Native people hi:l.Vf:' r:-1ny choice b11l :: go c:~long IAJlt· .h the E!XtE!nsion bE:!CaUSE! the long -·ter·rn agr·c,1errll'!ni:.s havE:~ not bC'!en able to be worked out. Rather than do without ful.l Funding, despite any cJaims of stepping in by the provincial government to help them out in thE! interim, in order to get some kind of full funding, they would have to and fc,~l.t for·ced -Lnl.o acc«::'pt::Lnq an extension. 1\Jo. ~>:? 1~2Bl.6

The:~ stor·y that the provincial government tells with respect to the relationship between the Province:~ and thr:~ Native p~wple:~s of Labrador is vastly different than ·the Native peopl.E:~s thc-:!mselvr:~s ar·r:~ saying. I think the media and correspondence we have all seen is a clear indication of that. I tAJould SclY Jt i.s about t·ime the;! Minister responsible for Northern D E:W e 1 o p rn c,~ n t ( M r . W ct r· r· c,~

n) f ul f i. 1 1 e d his role as Labrador1s representative i.n put all of his the CdbJnE:~t dnd efforts towards m a k i, n g s 1.11n C-:l IAH~ d o n o -1:. h d lJ e f 1 1 r· t h E! r extensions, but rCJ.thE:~ln long--tE!riTI, jJE!r'llli'l.rlE:~I'li: f.~grE~E:~TnE'!ntS IAJh'"i.ch IAii.J.l benefit the people of labrador. MR. ~"(.)RRU\J: Hr.we no fE!al". MR. I<EI..I.ANO: lie,~ sho111c:l tCJ.kP lhe not Forget that dE!Lin:ition that a .if IAJ(:~ ME! tis person is if that is apply - OI1E! oF 1n.ixc,1d dncestry, the only definition tAle AN l-ION. MEMBER: Arr:1 you onE!? MR.

KELLAND: then the lar·gr:~st segment of thE:~ indigr:~nous peoplE! of Labrador ar·e very well Metis and may not be covered by the aspects of the a g Y' e,~ e me,~ 11 t t h (;! rn"i. 11 J S t.:f~ r i. S 11 OIAI spE!aking of. So I IAJould like to assurE! him of my support l.o~JhE!I'l hr:~ lc'\J.k·i.ng dboul: hE:~lping the:~ pE!ople of Labrador For· m u c h need e,~ d f 1111 d :i 11 g For· ·I: h f) · i. r· pr·ogt"arns and thEdi" futtH'E:~, but ask h -i.1n l: o E:1 x p (:~ 11 cl c~ lH) r· y p o s s i. b J.

E~ E:~ f for· t and not be patron i z i n g a n d 1101~ pl.r.ly pol:i.t.·ics For· l:hE) pos:;:i.bJ.o SE:~pternbE!I" E:~J.E:~ction this yE:~ar·. SOME l-ION. MFMElFRS: L2H17 Ji.ll'lE! 9, 19B8 Vol. XL Hear, hear! MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member of Menihek. MR. FENWICK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The member for Torngat Mountains, l:h(;! M:i.ni.stt:~r· l"esponslbl.e ·For Northern Development, just r'E:!"i".:UI"nec:l, T beli.E:~ve, fi"UITI a conference in the Northwest T f'! r· r ·J tor i. r~ s and the Y 1.1 k on tal. I< .i n g to the NatiVE! pr:~ople in thE!

Nor·th clnd ·.i.n ol:hc~r· pr.,lt'l:s of Cancldi'l. One of the comrnE!nts hE! rnr.1de t-.o rn~:! ·in g·i tri.ng sor·t of a m:i.rr:i. ·r·epor'L t-.o us Labrador· MI-lAs IAJas i'lOIAJ much better off the Nctti.ve peop.Le in the Northwest Ten·i tor·ies clnd the Yukon tAJE!Y'O ·i.n t·.er·1n~; of UH:! support they are getting with programs and so on. I Urink :i.f he~ holds that. idea, maybe we can star··l: doing a lot of l:h"ing:; for the,~ Native people of Labrador as well. There is only onE! point I IAlould likE! t.o make 011 tl·l"i.s, Mr.

SpE!aker, and that is I think if IAIE! rE•ally IAJant t.o support. the Innu and Inu:i t in Labrador, jf WE:~ want to rna.ke SIH'(c1 thc3.t Uw-Lr land cli::l:im sett1ement goes ahE!ad, thE!I'l, 1 think, IAJ<:~ should i:'lgr'e(,~ 1.o~1i.th l::he position taken by Labrador' Innuil: ilssoc:i.at::i.o11 dnd th;.~t. J:; l·.:hat. l:hE!:ir land claims are the highest Flln ·i. ()I" j_ 1:: y i:'\1'1 d IAI E! s h 0 ul cl Ll s (:' whatever levers we have to make thorn moue forwctrd.

A~; Lhey hr:WE:1 :>~lggcs"l:ecl, "i.n thE! prlst, a.nd still suggest, u1hat IAIE! sho11ld do :i.s lell l:he pE:•opl~:! 1~.1ho arr:~ expanding thE:' low leVE!l flying -Ln l·lappy Val.lr:~y, Coosl':"! Bay, I~H~ iH'I:! not going to all.ow any expansJ.on No. ~:;2 R281'7

-- ---.:.t until the land claims agreement is sigm~d. That., I thin!<, "i.s one:: ' of the few ways to put enough pressur(,~ on UH:~ fE!der'i:ll goue::~rmnen'c to get some mouenH :~nt in that cl i r (:~ c t .i. o n b e c r:11.1 s e , q 1.1 i. t o f r i'l n k l. y , even though we sit down at the tt~ b l. (:~ I IAif::' a In f::~ .i. I'T (:~ J. e

l) d n i: IAih en :i. 1: comes to the Jand clatrns <.~gr·eernenL. T·L .is 1:1 f(~dei''i'll n~sponsjbj]ity to deal tAIH:h Native peopl~~. !""hey 0:11ne Uw one~; lAiho hav(~ to be push(:~d, they arE! thE! ones who have to move . If they lAJant a NATO base, if they wctnl expanded low level flying, let us make them pay for it by giving a good Land claims agreement to our Native groups in Labrador· so thai: t.hey can live .in a style and dignity they deserve. MR. LONG: Hear, hear! MR. R. AYLWARD : Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER : The Hon. the Minister of Forest Resources . MR. :~. (l'fi.Wt1RD: Thank you, uer·y much, Min.

SpeakE!r . f.H t.his tjrne I tAJould like to mab~ known 1-.o aJ.J. hon. rne:~mber ·:; of t:h ·i.~; !-louse that tlAJo CL ·-215 aircraft fr·om l.:hr::~ pr·owi .ncidJ. fle(:~l-. '•Jer ·e d:i sp<:ttched to Thunder Bay, Ontario l. r~l s i: lAH~ H k . This \Aii\1 s fa c .i.l i. 1.: d t·. (~ d by an agreement be tween the ft:~dc ,~r·;~ll gov~:!rn1nent, Lhe ptnovinces, and the territories which established a mutual aiel resource-sharing agency which is coor·dinah~d and adrninlstE!r'ed by the Canadian Intra-Agency Forest FirE! Centr·e, basc .:.d in Winnipeg, Manitoba.

The go v E! r nrne n t of Ontario 1.2818 June 9, 1988 Vol XL approached the agency for c1 s s ~i s l: a n c t?. a n d i n 1: 1.1 r· n Hw a g e n c y contacted the Department · of Forestry in this Province asklng for the assistance of aircraft fr•om I·: he c:I(:O!pdi' '"l:rn~::~nl:' s flf~E!t. The request was made after numerous f·j_;n(;~S Jn ·i:hf.! 1\Jor·thlAIC~ster"n r'f~g:Lon of Ontario broke out . and thE! capal·i.JJties of l.:he province for controlling and containing thE! f.i.r·es on thE~ sl:r'E!ngLh of lhl-~ir· OIAJrl forest fire fighting resources were deemed 1mposs.i.ble .

Temperatures have been rangjng i.-HlYl.AJI'Hc~re fr·orn 30 l~.o 40 degreE:~ Celsius in the region due to a h(:~i:lt IAJdiJE! tAJh·i.ch has been r·aviOtging Western Canada and the woodlands of Northwestern Ontario for the past two WE!Ed<s or so. Thts is UtE! cause for the nurn~::~rous forr.~st fires in thE! Thunder Bay r'E!gion. Becaus12. the:~ tAJOods ar'E! so dry, the forests are burning at an alarming r·ate, thus necess ~itating the extra reinforcements in this area. The govC;~r·nrnE!nl". of Oni.:ar ·io, Ml".

Speaker, have also requested assisti:lnce from the governments of the Yukon, Northwest Territories r:~nd (lJbeJ"I ~a thro11•:;1h l~he Ce1n<. ·1d.ian Intern-AgE!ncy Forest Fi1ne C(:'l'Jtlne in Winnipeg. If cond .i.t.i.ons det(:H·iorate tn the cH'E:'a and rnor'E:' . l . . I a s s ~1. s : a n c 0 ·1. s r· c,~ q 1 1 1 r· C'! c: , additional aircraft from pr·ou:i.nce 1 s fl t:!t~ l-. rn<·ly be sen 1·.~ Thunder Bay . l:hen the t.o The Depf.lrtme!nt of Fores tr ·y is pleAsed to be tn cl posit lon to offer assistance to Ontario during Uw-ir' t·ilflE! of rH =~ecl.

Hon . rnernbc:!rS will recclll the dl':~vastattng forest fires i.n Central Newfoundland during the Summer of 1986 . At that time we received invaluable assistance, through the agency, from Ontario and other provinces in controlling and finally ~Jo . 52 R2BlB

containing our fires. Tn no way, Mr. Speaker, has the for·t:~st Fire 1-ight"i.ng capctbil .. i.ty i.n this Province become jeopardized or diminished in any way. The decision to send the two CL-215 ar·icr·aft to Thund~H' Bay IAJclS made~ by my depart.me!n·t 1 s provincial firE! committee. This decision was based on the fact that the weather situabon 1.~o.1ithin thE:~ Pr·ov Lnce has been wet and damp and this situat-ton i.s expected to continue for a little while longer.

Coupled with the fact that the Fi1ne Index :in NEHJ..Jfoundland at the p r· ,,~ s E:~ n t ·i~ i me,~ l s J. ol.r.J, I~JE:~ 1~1e r· E:~ -.i. n <'l position, and still arr::~ in a pos:i.L:ion, to a!;s'i.st·. l~hc,~ protJinc(~ of Ontar·io. The department recognizes however, cw c n ·t:hOI((:J h 14Jeal:he r c ond .i. t ·i.ons ar· c IAIE.~t and thE.~ rilnE:~ Index is 1.ow, the :d. 'L l.l c:'l t .i. () n c C\ n c h c:'l n 9 e q l,d, c k l. y . T. r ti1E:~ occasion ar·ises where the a i. r· c r· .:~ f t s s e n t 'l: 0 0 n ti:w i. 0 c'lr' ~~ needed back in Newfoundland for F i. r <'!

F i g h U . n g , i: h e a i r c r· a f 1:. lAd 11 b c,~ n~called without delay and p1noper action will be taken. The Department of Forestry and our For·est Fi.re CounnJt:tee 1.r.Ji.l.l continue to monitor this situation. Mr. Speaker, just to inform han. members, if th(~ occc-.lsion does arise, we can haVE! our CL-·215s back in this Province within cl twenty-Four hour period. MR. SIMMONS: r-'1 r· . s p (:~ a kf,~ r· ' MR . SPt::AKF.R: The hon. the rnernber for· Fo1ntune - Hc:H'rni. t.agE:~. SOME HOI\J. MF.I'-1R Fr~!3 : HE!iH' I h<~<H'! MR. STMI'-10NS: 1..2B19 June 9, 1988 Vol XL Mr.

Speaker, I thank the minis tE!r for s 11 p p J. y i. n g nlf.! wJ L h an a cl van c t=! d copy of his statement. I weleoTTIE! h i. !; s t a i:E:~ mE! n t . I t 'i s C1 g 0 o d example of what well co-or·dinatE!d interprovincial cooperation can achieve. I am delighted, as a N~~IJ..JfoundlandE:H', to br::! ablE! to hr::~lp directly through this initiative the people of Ontario at a time when they need our heJp. I notice i t .i. s c!l r· (~ c i. p r· o c i.'l t i o n of I).J h c.~ t t h e y were able to do for us in 1986.

Perhaps the key SE!ntE!nCE! othE!I"WiSE! i.n t.he lfli.n.ish:1r 1 ~> st.:at~:!I'Tiont 'is towards the end of the second page ·i. n 1~1h 'i c h he ass 1.11 <:~ s 1: h P H oust-:! , through you, Mr. SpE!aker·, ·l:hat the Forest Fir8fighling cctpabtlity ln this Province has not become j c~ o p a r· d i. /f~ d o r· d i 1rri . n i s h l:~ d . T beJieve that to bE! the case, but. Hli'li- i.s koy lo Hny such collaboratJ.on we have in tE!rms of rna k "i. n 9 o 11 r· I" P. so 1.1 r· c e ~; a v c:\ -L 1 i!l b l. E:~ l~ o other jurisdictions in Cr-1nadr.1, Hldl: "i.n the proc<~ss, I;.JE! do not leave ourselves exposed.

I believe we haue not so done. rhe rnini.s'lE:~r notes at UlE! mornE!rl't the Fire Index in Newfoundland is ver·y low. If I rne~y ge! -t t.he minister 1 s ear for just a rnornE!I1't, thc:·\t stai::E:~ITIE!nt. allot).JS me to piggy-back a concern I have. I support fully the forest fire r·~~91Jldt:ions ·i.rnpl.ornent~~d sornE:~time last month and which wi11 stay in !:'fft:!C l. T. i:JE:'] iOV(-:! IJn-1: il ~)ept.E!TnbE!r.

But I would hope the minister rnight IJ.Jc:\nt ·i·.o refJ.ecl·_ on t:he atmosphere in which those I" f~ g 111. a U . o n s I~Jl,1 r E! f i r· s t promulgated, at a time when we IAJE:~rc,~ Fdced IJJi'l'.h e1 t)E!r'y sc,~r·ioiJS forE:~st fir·e hazard sorne yPars c'lg () , No. 52 R2819

I submit to him, +:hey sc~~rved us well during those periods, but at the pr·eseni: t. i.rne, tuhen the Index is very low, there might be a more f1E:~xibh~ m~~chanism whi.ch IJJouJ.d allow us to suspend the rE:H!JI~la tions or a1lo1JJ For some more activity at varjous times. l~ :ight now, for exampJe, I know of Lndi.t;idudls IMho I~J<Hlt l:o do sorne bur·ning C!l'ld somE:~ cutting CIS IJJell. fh!Cdi.ISE~ of l:he r·eg11li'\L.ions, i'\n extra constr~int is imposed that ·i.s r·e:~i'll.ly nol.: j1~s ·l::i.f -i. ed 1~1hen l:he Indr~x is qujtE! lotJJ, as :it is at lhe pre:~seni ·. mo1nen·:- ..

That s1.1btni.ssion, Mr. 5p( ~~<:tk:~r·, i.n no way should be construed to mean I~<Je IJJCHlt d hi.;tphcn :ard si t.uai.:ion during the height of the fire season. The minister 1 s first priority in that respect has to be ensuring the:1 for·ests an1 properly protected from fire hazard. But if hE:~ l.o~.Jould cons:.Lder· that l:hought in tandem with the early one, that perhaps there is need For a little more flexibility for the convenienCE! of r·~~s:Ldents, I wouJ.d be most grateful. We s u p p o r t t h e i. rd. U . c1 i~ i. 1; e , M r . Speaker, on this side.

Oral Questions M R . l..lJ !311 : 1'-1r'. 5pei'..t bH' . 1'-1f~. ~IPFAI<FR : The hon. th e llll:~tnbE!r For [Joni'\IJ i.s La Nor·t.h. MR. LUSH : My question is for the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Brett). No1JJ that we:1 have->. had an opportun.l t:y Lo analyze in morE! dE!tail the figurE!S of 'l: he Cap i. t. a l lrJ o In k s P r· o j c~1 c t. s L2820 JunE! 9, 1988 Vol XL announcc~~d for· th'i.s f-Lscal year·, it is only appropriate that we ask Lhe minister some questions that he can answer publicly. In that r~~spect, Mr.

Speaker, I I~<JondE!r' can the minister can specify the d~~glnf~E! of cor•rt1l.i'\t.i.on br~i·:' ."Jr:1f"!l'l the criteria used by his department to aJ.J.ocdh~ 11111n.ici.pal . capil':.c'll funding as compared to thE:~ correlation !Aril:h ·l:he i'lcl:ual. dlliOIIni: s of morH ,~Y allocated to municipalities, p ~' r t: i. c 1.1 l. •'l r· l y .:i. n IJ i. e 1.11 o f i.: h C.:! l. d r' g P and excessive discrepancies in 111on:i .os r'HC~1-i.lJed by cl.i.si:r•.-i .ct.s on the Opposition side of the House? MR. SPEAKER : The han. the Mi.n ·i.s Le::!r of Mun :i.c..i .pal Affairs. MR. BRETT : Mr· .

Speaker, ti'H->. han . gentlE: 1rnan is already aware that the program iHHlOLinCE!d by me b~.Jo or three days ago was almost exactly as it was put forward by the Capital Proj ect s Committee. The re wa s ver·y 1ittl.e c h cmg (,~ by the Ca binet or anybody else. It was based on neecl r.lnd , consi.der· i.ng t.he fact we had rE!quests of in excess of $160 million, T th:i.nk 1~1e chd tH!r'y IAJE!l.l i nd e c~1rl . The hon. gc,,ntlernan and somE! of his co J.le ~' g 110 s h t:w c b c:'C'! i'l 11 ~; t n g F i. g 11 r· e s thcd: a1"e incorr'E:1ct, and I IJJ'ish hE! I~JOIIl.d no!: do l:h<:·ll'.

Thoy L:r·i .('!d to g~~t thJ s point ac1noss the:! dcly that T "' n n o 1 1 n c r~ d l: h e p r· o g r· i·11TI . T h e y <.;t r• e using the figure of 11 per cent as g o :L n g t o t h (,' o p p o !; j, t i. o n . r h d 1·:. .l s incorrect. They know it is -i.ncorrec l:. Thei"8 IAJi:tS r:-ll.lflOS l:: $20 million in grants, subsidie s, l

C) i:l l'l S , I~J h d 1:. h i'\ I) (~~ y 0 II , t h d l:. 1.1.1 e I') t. i n to the Cap i t a 1 ci t y t hi s y e a r· . ThE!re <'ll"l:' l·wn mernb('!t's :in the Opposition who represent districts in the capital clty and, therefore, they are included in t.hat. No . 52 R2820

So, Mr. Speaker, I make no ~poJogies for the way that the money ~~Jas rli.s l:ri.b11ted . As T. indici:l·ted, ti'H:~re 1/JC::H'e in excess of $160 m:i.J.J.i.on in roq11esi :s. and T think we did a ver·y good job . I feel sorr·y For· the couununities and the town councils throughout the:~ Prov:i.ncE:~ thai: d·.i.d nol.: g<-:1t mom1y. Many of them are upset and that is to be expected. I under·s !:and that.

There is frustration when one has sewerage runnlng in the ditch, or so it is suggE!Sted, but !:he:~ hon. m<-:~mbe:1rs rea1iZE! that:. it is impossible, from a financjal point of vieiAI, to cure in one y<-:1ar· all the ills with respect to water and sewer that we hclve in the Provjnce . This is one of the bigg!::~Si:. progr ·r:~ms l:hr:d·. 1/Je have had. ·j_f not the largest. in years and ye:~ars, dnd IAJ<-:1 <:lre addr·es s i.ng i.:hc,1 pr·oblem, taking into conside:1ration the clmounl.: of f11nds 1··.hat: 1~1e ha1Je. M R . IJJ :·w : n supplementary, Mr . Speaker . MR.

SPfAKfR: A supp le rnt>r1tary. th~::' hon . 1:hu me~mber· for Bo navis ta Nort. h. MR. LUSH : I ask the minister i.n dll fair·ne s s. Mr. Speaker. how can he r·at:lonal --i.ze:1, out of cl tot :al budg(-:!t of $43 million, Opposition districts r·f~ceiv:lng only $5.1 million? Now, Mr. Speaker, these are Ul!::1 facts.

HOIAJ can the minister, out of a total budget of $43 million, just under $6 m'ilJ.ion, if we include:~ the total Opposlt .-J.o n, $5.1 m:i.ll:i.on by jus ·!: counting the official Opposition, h ot/J can t h c-:'! m i n l s t :::! r· j u :.; t·. 'i. f y 1: h d t apparent, unfair and callous tr·eat.lnE!nl of mlmi.c.ipcd.i.L:ies thr·oughou ·t the Province of 1\h~I~Jfouncll;;uld and l.i.'l~Jr'ador·? MR . SPEAKER : 1.2821 June 9, 1988 Vol XI. The hon . Lht-:! M:in·i.s i.C'!r' of r-1uni.cipi'll Affairs . MR.

BRETT : Mr. ~3pE:1r:lh1in I i:h<-:1 sarnE:! gr.·llfl!d t:hat goes on every year, I gue ss , not o n 1 y h e r' c,~ i. n N e 1~1f o IHl d 1 a n d b u t 1. n every province in Canada. When everybody does not get all they want, then they comE ! up with this sor·t. of thing. Aga-i.n, I r'emi .nd th€:1 hon. member that these figures were given J.a st y E~ a r , o v c,~ r· a n d o v CcH' a n d o v C:~ r . b y the hon. gentleman who carne be:,for·e:~ me, the form er minister of the department. There are districts that are t. 0 1: cll.l. y s (:~ r

l) i. c ('! d I M t' . s p e r~ k E! r' . You cannot stand up and say that bE~CdiJ~;r~ IAJe hdlJE! 30 per·ct;!nl:: of thE! members in the House, therefore:1 we s h o 1 1l d 9 e I· 3 0 p e r· c c.-:~ n 1.: of t: h e funding. That dOE!S not makE! any s<~nse . Yo11 do no ·l: p11l.: IAJatc,~r and sewer into a community if they r'\ 1. r•

E) d d y h o"' l)(~ .i. 1-. . (\ 1'1 d y () II d 0 l'l 0 t pave r·oads in a town :if they do noi: nf:Hc1d l:o be-) pi:Wt: 'd, clnd you do not recap them if they do not need l:o bt:1 r(~Ci:lppPrl. ~;o --i.t: i.~; l::ht~ 1 lies, lies, and thE! damn statistics, 1 this gam e thE:1 hon. gentlemen are trying to play. I rE!peat that thE! Opposition got more monuy this year than they ever got beforE!, at least sinCE! I have btHHl ln UJC House and t:hat is seVE!nteen years . And I am very pr·oud. Mr . Spe;~ker·. t.hat: I lAJc~s thE! minister who was able to introduce one of Hw lar·g est pr·og r·ams th,~ t we have had.

The funding 1..ua s donE! base:H :I on nef'!d, i.t IAJas donr::1 fair·ly, and thE! Opposition ITIC:11TlbE!Ins got, as F;:~r cl.S I arn concE!r'n(:!d, a fair· share of the dollars. MR. LUSH : Mr. :>pt~akc,H', a fi.nal S'- tppl Pment.i.'lr·y. No. S2 R2821

MR. SPFAKER: A final supplementary, the han. the member for Bonauista North. MR. LUSH: Mr . Speaker, I ask the minister is hE:~ not at.uar·e '!:hat t.he percenti:tgt,~s of 11 per cent or 12 per cent, 11 per cc-:~nt ln tha 1.: i:lrHi.~, hdue b~~en the same for the last number of y c-:~ a r· s t n hn· ru s o f t h e r· a l: :i. o , l: h ~~ pt"opor·tJon of the-:~ budget au.Jar·ded d i. s t r· J c t.: s on t hr. 0 p p o ~d l: i. on ~; i. de? Not.~.J, Mr.

Spt:~akc-:~1", in v:i ew of Ud.s I dS k hot~J C<Hl l.ht:~ rr6 n i. s b.;!r ex p.lrri n to the people of Newfoundland that l:h.i.s does not snrel.J. of political patr·onagE?., that this does not S HIe J.l. 0 (" pol. :i. L i. c d l. p or k bat'Tc->.11-.i. ng, r·and d, political pork bcu·r·c~l.l. i.ng of the,~ 1.uorst.: kind? MR ·. SPEAKU~: The han. the Minister of Municipal Affa"i.r·s. MR. BRETT: Mr. SpE!aker, the political pork barrelling is this: Bonavista North, rE~pres en ted by the han. member, got $59 5, 000. That l s the political pork barrelling! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Ml~.

BRETT: Gi:lndel", $4-00,000 . That is tht:~ p o 1 j_ t i. c '-" J. p or· k b r:H'r e 1. 1 i. n g ! ~3 L r· .:d. i: of Belle Isle, $1,283,000 . That i s 1.: h o p o l "i. L ..-i. c d 1 p o I" k b a r· i" Co! ll 'i. n g that. hl':! j_s ti:l]k:ing about. MR. W. CARTFR : Mr. Speakor . MR . SPF::AKF:l~: ThE:! hon. the mernber for Twi.l1ing<"te . MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, my question goes to L2822 June:~ 9, 191l8 Vol XI_ the Minister of Municipal Affairs. Earlier, Mr. Speaker, U1e m:i.n:i.stc;!r rna.dc,1 r·eferE:HlCE! to -'l:he Capital Projects Committee, I th"'Lnk he:~ c<:J.lled tt.

That is a committeE!, I believe, of SE!nior· ctvi1 Sf:'!rV<.-lnl- :s I~Jho ar·e supposed to rE!Commend to the m"i.niste•r projects t~o be undt~rl· .:akE!rl by hJs dep<:H'tment. T wo nd ~~ r· i.s the thE! Ill i. rd. S 1:. C:! In p r• (-:~ p <H' e d to table Y'E!COTIIITIE!ndations of l:hi:lt . cornnr.itl· .c:!e? MR. SPFAKFR: r h e h o n . UH :! M i n :i. s 1: e ,, o r M ll n .. i. c- i. p a 1 AfFairs. MR. BRETT: T 11.1 i. ll 1·. a k t,~ l: h a L 1.1 n d ,,. r a d u i. s l~! me n t , Mr . Speaker. MR. W. CARTER : A st.tppl.t:~mc,~ntary, Mr· . Spealu~r. Ml~.

SPEAKER: A supplementary, the trH~mbc-:~r for· Tu.JiJlingate. MR. W. CARTER: han. thE! Mr. Speaker, I am surpriSE!d the minister· did not agr,;!e. Tf it ·is being done as fairly as he says it -i.s , why IAJou1d he object to tabling th(~i.r r·ecolnHI~~ndat:.-Lons? Mr. SpE!aker, my question to them rni. n i. :; l-. e I" : Y c' :d: E! r• d .:1 y i. n UH,~ t. OlAJn of Summerford, wh"i.ch is probably ·1··. he s e con d 1 a r· g t~ :; l: co rnm u n tty :in TwiJlingal:e district, a community oi- SOI"Il(! l/.00 peoplr-~ •.o\flj:li"OX..i.ITI< ~1 h:1ly, the entir·e council r·esigned.

They r·c,' s .i.g l'lC!d be,~ Cdl ,l s <-:! oF shabby treatment. My question, Ml". ~-) p t~ a k c,~ r· , ·1-. o t-. he rn..-i. n "i. s t (~ r' : In light of thE! fact that thE!SE"~ c:ounc:i.JJor·~; hc·"I'H~ r·es:i.gnE!d, have seen fit to resign because of rau.J sewra9e tn their roadside ditches, in their community, will the minister now accede to their request and make funds available No . 52 1~2822

to t. hem in or·d er to allE:~ via te the problem they haue? MR. SPFAKFR: The han . i:he Mi .ni .st:ei" of r"'ttni .r:i .pi'tl (.)ffair·s. Ml~. BRETT : Mtn. Speaker·, this is an annual e:w l~ n t . :: v <·H' y s i n g l e y c ct r a b o 1 1 t: this time of the year thE!re are any number of cotJnci 1s 1~1ho threaten to resign because they d i d tl 0 t g (c~ t UHc1 f u n d :i n g t h ct 1: ti'ICc~ y applied for. This year is no exception. We have had one resignation so far. I have reluctantly accepted the resignation of the total council.

We will appoint someone to look after the affairs of 'the town until such tlme as we can get another town council. T CMI tell thE:1 hon. tfH:~tnbt:~r that Summerford is not the only place Pro •Ji. n c e wher·e there ·i. ~; in the d:i tches. If he i.n thi.s Sei~Jage l~JOtll.d J j_ k r~ t: 0 1·: <:1 k e ·1-. h e ·U HH~ 0 I I L over· thE:~ wee 1«->.nd, I wi lJ tal< e hirn o 11 l: 1: o T r i n i. l: y No r l: h a n d T t.lri. ll. show h:i .rn sewage in the dil:ches.

Ry the tlJdY, the bon. m1,~Hiber di .d not exact] y t.lJear out the carpet c:otni.ng to l:h~:~ urinist1~r' s ofFi .cP. looking for funds for his district Ud s y c,~ ct r· . I do no t·. r (:HII em bE:~ r e •J t:H' seeing him in that part of ConfE~dfH'ation Building. But, meanwhile, Summerford, I suppose, is Frustrated and upset, as was Bell Island this morning, as are many councils i:hroughou t l:his Province, but I am afraid, Mr. Speaker·, they ar<c~ go i.ng to haVG! t.o wait another year . To the fact that th<~Y have resigned.

UlfJr<,~ is not very much I can do about that, but I am afr·<.dd ti'H:!y art:~ going to have to w<-.li t a not her y ea1" to s E! e i. f 1: h 1'::~ y r:H' (,~ i 11 C 1 U cJ e d i. n n (~ X t year '' s program . I_/. B ?. 3 .T11ne 9, l9BB Vo1 XI . MR. W. CARTER: "finr.1l supp'J.(~Illenl:.i'lry, Mr. SpE:~d!<c,~r. MR. SPEAKER: n f ·i. na 1 s II pp l.etlle n h:~ ;ny' U1E! ho 11 . the member for Twillingate . MR. W. CARTF::f~ : Mr. Speaker, the han. minister is nol ·: l-.e11i.ng Uw trul.:h, and he knows it. He knows, Mr.

Speaker, 1-: h r.l t: T h H t) <-:! s c;! 11 t l (~ l: t E! r· S t: 0 h i ITI concerning thE:~ need fotn IJJatE!r and sew(H' i.n SummE:~rfor·d. MR . SPEAKER: OrdE!r, please! MR. W. CARTER: I n fa c t , i n t h i. s v e r· y H o 1.1 s e I h a v E! done it. MR. SPEAKER : Or·dc;!r, pl(:!aS<.;!! I would ask the han . member to t~t:i.HldrRtAJ Utat r'l '~tndrk about the minister not teJ.ling the truth. MR. W. CARTER : T IJJ'i.Ulclin;;tl,o.J H, ~k. ~1pedkEH', but I think the minister knows what I am l·.d l !d ny r:'lbou L :If:~ knOIAJS lJf:H'':J l.>.ll:~l.l.. Mr.

Speaker, my question to the m'i.n:i.s U;•r ': Thl'::~ rJJ;~yor· of that community who resigned yesterday is cl Mayor of seventeen years E!Xperience, one of the most highly respected and credi.ble people in Twillingate district. W:tll t:hE:~ minlst.E:~r· now l::hen l:ell th<'! people of Summerford, Mr. Speaker, t:hrough thoi.s iiouse, IAJhat t:hE!Y can do when they have raw sewage in UH,~ s t. r· I'::H;! t. , l: h C-?. t. h r• E! a t. o f a n epidemic?

Again I ask the rni.rds·I: .C:!r : Would h< ~ underl:.ake to give them some hope by telling ·1·: hE:! m t h c:1l: t. her· e tAli. l 1 b (;! f IJI'l cl s madE! availablE! this YE!ar·, at lr::'i'.lSt to trlakc,~ a s b:'lrt. h)t.lJdi"ds cor'r'(~ct·i .ng their very serious and life 1\Jo. r>? R2B23

threatening situation? MR . SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. BRETT: No. Mr. Speaker, I cannot giue him that assurance. MR. EFFORD: Mt" . SpE:1aker. MR. SPEAKFR : The hon . lhe member for Por· 1: dE:1 Ct"aue. MR. FFFORD : Tl'ldl'lk YOII, rJJr . SpE:1i.-\kc~r . Mr·. Spe.:lkE!r, my y11esi:·i.on i.!; l:o l:ht~1 hon. the Minister· of Health (Dr. Co 1 l. i n

s) c o n c e r n ·i. n g lJ o r y s r:1 r· i. o 11 ~; problems in our health care sysb~m. In relati.on t-.o the::1 minister· 1 s statement yesterday whe::1n I·H:! said hE! has t:1 conlinuall.y open channel to the Health Sciences Complex and its management, I ask the minister is he aware, did management report to him - it was submitted to rnanagernt.;!nt at the Health SciE:1nces Complex - that for twenty-seuen days out of thirty lhe hospital was operating in a short-staff sit.uaU.on? Df~. COLUNS : Mr . Speai<E!I" . MR . SPfAI<FR : The::1 hon. i'.h101 rJJi.ni.stE:1t' of llt~1a'l.-t-:h . DR. COI .. LTI\J~): Mr.

Speaker, the hon. member br-011ght 11p l:h i.!; l'fli:ll:hH' yeshH'ddy. At. thr:1 ·U111E:1 :r sald I had some ·i. nf or·m,:l U. on from 1:. he rna nag eni!::Hll: 11 p thE:!r·e, and I do haue to state my uietAJ U1al T g('Jt IIHH'O dCCIH'mi:E:' information from the management of the hospi.1::al. l::he~n T do corn :i.ng L2824 June 9, 1988 Vol XL across the floor from the hon . member. But I said that I would try to get d bit rnorr:1 infor·mation because I only had a brief report at that t.ime. I hauc SIJCcet~de::'d in doi.ng this, and I madE! a fetAJ notE!S on the information dawn in the department.

I did not get it person<:'llly, so111e of lilY s l:.a ff got this, from the managE!ITIE!nt oue1n ther'l~1. T'ht~1 TIIC:le::11:.ing ·i.n CjLI~~st :i on, and this is lAJhere t.hE! han. nleiTibl.;!r' 1 s Cfli(~S L:i.on -J-·oday stt:!ITIS from, I think, was in thE~ euE!ning of .T 111'1 t~1 7 , i':1. n d i_ l: w a~; d rn E~ e t·. ··i. n g called by the unions of those IJ.JCH' bH' ~; i. n l". he h o s pi . l r:d. L h c~ r e , by NAPF, by NLNU, and by thE! AWHP, l.:he Associ_a·l:cd ~IE:1r.d.I ·h Wor·kt:!rs.

We co11ld not-. dwt· .r~1r'ltrLrH :1 , I~Je rhd no l haue any information on who chaired the::1 Tnf:!C~i ::i.ng ".. I do no ·t know that - but it was called by t he 1m i o n rn C::Hrt l:w r' s h -t p to d i s c u s s 'i on matters among themse]ues, pr·esurnabl.y fr·om a union point of uiew. Now, Mr. Speaker, I did inadvertently give a bit of incorrect information yesterday.

Thc.:1 unde::'rstandi.ng 1 had from the brief report I had was that this IAJt'l s a lfH~ e t: .L n g IAJh E:H' E:~ 1:: h t:1 s +.:a ·F f tJJE! 1n e expressing tht:~ir· concerns to mmnagE:1tnen·t-_, Th<:lt IJ..JClS .i.ncorrect because there was no management at 1 ... h r:1 Til f~ e t.i n g . l h E~ 1 Hl"i . o n rn e t together in the audi tori urn of the r"'l~di .c al School, IAJ~ri ch .i.s au.:d.l.<:1bl.E! for meetings of this sort.

I th·i.nk yo11 held to pdy a l:i.tLle FeE! to use it, bul:. that is lAJhat thE!Y c:l'i.d. lL: IJJi'lS t·.o d·isCII<;c;, fr'OI'fl d lln .. _Lon point of uiew, financiCll r·estr.·l i.nts (-.hl:\1.: Lho hosp:i.l:.dl j,s under, as almost al1 operations of gotH1rnrnr:1n+: drE:' and rightly so l.i.mi. t.E:'d budgt:''t:, No. 52 ll n d l:H' r· H s t r· a i n t , because we have l:i.rni.i::c:'d .incornl~1 i.n R2824

this Proui.ncc,~ and we~ hduc~ t:o bri.ng in restraint for ~11 matters of gout.~rnlllf:Hll operc1t.i.ons. But thc-:'y IAJ~n·l:c-:1d to c:l·i.sctlss 1-hH r·est.raint effects on the hospital, r:lnc:l l.:h~:!y •'llso I~JRnl:ed to d ·i.sct~s~;"' mat"Lr::1r that I was askc,1d about in i::h(~ HotiSf! a fetAl dr.\y~> .:~go r.lnd responded to, thal ·ls, a pending number of lctyoffs at the hospi .t~l. Out of the lat"ge staff th12~re l:hi.':H'e -Ls a small number of J.ayoffs pending.

The management told us that it was dec ided by the union mernber·s that they would likely have some demonstrations cilt lunch ti.me over· the next weeks or months to demonstrate their concern about restraint and about the pending l.ayoffs. Hou.1euer·, on 1nqu i.r·y th121 management apparently determined that l:he me~!'l. :ing IAJas not one l·.:hat·. engaged in hospital bashing, or indeed in bdshing the etdrn:inistrat·.ion. That is the word thc~y 9dlH:1 liS. l'hi.':H'E!

IAJi:l:) no h o s p :it a J bas hi n g • t h E:1 r e was no ad mi. n i_ s ·1-. r a 1: i. o n b a s h i. n g , a n d t: h e I'IIE:~C U ng IAJaS ler·med Cl rairly good one. The Pr'l,1s ·i.dE!I1 '1: of 1\Jf)Pr:: i.ndicat-ed thc:1 numbE!Y' at lE:HJding was C~bot~t a co1~pl.e of htmdr•ed . MR. l.ONC : () point of or·der·, Mr. Speaker. plo<:~se! MR. SPF.AKER : The han . the member for St. John 1 s East, a point of order. MR. LONG: Mr. Speaker, I have been very patient with the answ8r by the minister, but he l1as not yet, in aboui: eight minutes, addressed the specific question which was put to h.im.

We only have a short l·.:i.tne, so I plead with the Chair to call the minister to order, and haue I 282.S June 9, 1988 Vol XI.. him either address the question put to him or to sit down. MR. SPEAKER: Thc-:H'e -i.s no poi .nt. of or·dc:!r . I I~JOII.ld though, t'l~rnark~; i'l ~; k ~:he hon. t hc,~ 1ni .n'is I·:~H', if he wo u 1 d kE:' (:1 p h i s dS br·:i.(-:1f .::~s pos s:ib"l,c,~. Dl~. COLUNS : Ml". Speakr::1r, I may haVE! o lJ 1.;! r· s b-) p p e d Ul'i. n g s a 1 ·i. l 1:.1 e b :L t , but I was trying to give some ·i.nf<H'tnat. :.i.on that I said I t;.Jould give.

In terms of the hospital not havoi.ng l:ht:~ ntHnber of staff that they would 1 i. k E! to hau e available to them, you know, I have indicated that any numbE:1r of ti.mt '!S. I h<we s<:dd that. the hospitals at this t:i.rne of l:hE! y<::!<H', i'IS at other· t.i.mE:1S o'f l:he year, are decreasing the number of be:1ds t:hat t:h8y ;u·r.:~ go i.ng to make available for care. They arE! nld !d 119 tH o~ rl s au .:d l. a b l E:1 For' a c 1.1 t e care, emE!rgency carE!, but not 1,1 J. E! c l·. i. \J t:1 r: ,,, r e .

T h e r· 1.'' d ~; o n IAJ h y they a1"e doing that i.s becauSE! -Lhc ,1y halJ(-} sornl.':' si' :C~f( c:li.f f.i cult .ic~s and it is not aJl related to rnoney. Thr~y cdnno 1: ge-l: ~;orne->. of thE! staff they wouJ.d like to get:. di-. 1-h i.s p.u·ti ct l1.:n· 1-:i .tne of l:hE! year for· obvious rE!asons, rE!asons r~lJE!l''':JiHlE! knOt.\JS ~b011l:. MR. EFFORD : Mr. Speaker . MR . SPEAKER : T h f'! h on . ~: h ~! JTH~ tni:HH' f CH' Po r· 1:. cl E! Graue. MR. EFFORD : M r' . S p e a k e r , t h e h o n . t: h "' M :i n i s ·te:' r· of Health did not even touch on the->. quc,~sti.on I dSk(?.d h'i.m, close to it.

I will not even ask the Minister of Hedlth a different question, a supplementary. Gi.uing UH,' M i n :i. s i: E! r of ii e R l t h t h c->. b e rw f L t No. 52 R2825

-- -------- of the ciOiibt t:h<.~t hE! bi:-)lj_c~V('!S il: 1.uas a union meeting, today some of the staff cRlled me and ssirl if the Minister of Health did not get h.is tnvit.al~ion fr·om th~:-~ Pt·em ·Ler, the staff of the hospital are willing to meet with the r"'inistc~r· of Health and/or his representatives to tell them about the problems they are having, about safety of the staff and the safety of the patients. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR . SPEAKER : Order, please! PleRse pos~:-~ .~ yuest·i.on . MR.

EFFORD: Wi]J the Min :istE:~r of Health agr·ee to m:~e 1-. l.Ui i.:h the s +:a f r 0 r -I:. he Health Sciences Centre to listen to I: he pi~obJ.ems t~hr:~y •H'E:' ha'J i. ny wi.th the safE:~ty of working condit-i.ons and l:hr..' s<.·\f<,~ly of l:hr:~ patients? It has nothing to do t.u·i.t.h union problr:~ms. MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Minister of Health. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is saylng that the administration over there lies to me. I do not think they do l.·i.<:~ to rne. I rc,~al.ly do not think they do.

The executive people at the hospital told the officials in our dt!pdrtrn! c~nl: l::hdt: UH>. meel:-i.ng IAJas ca11€~d by Hw unions on a joint bas-is, Nt:lPF:, 1\11.1\JU dnd the ~\IAHP. Now, J arn r·c->.poJ~ting what the i'tdrn-Lnts l:r'<:lLion tells rne. Tf l·.hc.~ hon. memb~:~r· chases t.o believe o-l :hc-:~l~l.u .. i.se, U·1dl: is hi .s rn· ·i.wi .J.oge. J cun l"E~por·t:i.ng to the->.

House what I h d v (:! tH~ CO! 11 :-. <) l d ' -1-. h i.d: L his I~Jd !; d weE~tj ng that 1.uas cal led by t·hose i":hi~(:!e s(=!par'•:\t".{:! uni.ons so thai:. ·l:ht~ L2826 June 9, 1988 Vol XL tHd.ons could hdlJt::~ a join+ : lll!:~wli.ng and discuss matters and relate t.heir· have concerns i::o one another. · . I no doubt that the union 1ne111bt::~rs hi'tve cerl~.aln concc-?.rns. The administration has concerns, the Department of Health has concerns, the government has concerns, everyone has concerns! What is new about that? MR. EFFORD : A s '' ppl tHnE:Hlt<:H' y, Mr· . ~3pe a k e r. MR. SPEAKER: () final.

Slippl.E:!rnc,~nt.ary . MR. EFFORD: l.E:!t rrw clsk the minister this q u f:' s 1: "i. o n , s -.i. n c e h ~~ i ~; s 1·. j_ l. l bringing in tht:~ managr:'rnent, and the rn.:Hlaljc'nnr:'nl: i.s noL .. Ln I:·Jri.s situation. Will the ministE!r i:\t,:jr'E~E~ to rneet I~J.H::I'l [·.he IAJOt'kE!Y'S if I personally sel: up thE! meeting? :r. 1-. h a s not h :i. n 9 1-. o d o IAii t h tHl i o n s .

If th(:~ concerns do not carnE~ dot.un i.:hcd: IAIE!r'e brouyh t: ou-t: i:he other night, if those people do not tE•J.l the rn-i.ni.stc,~r 1::.1-w sanw th i.ngs they told about the safety of thE! patients, I will personally get down on rny knees and apologize to the Minister of Health. MR. SPEAKER : ·rht~ hon. the Mini.ster· of Health. DR . COLLINS: Mr. Speaker. I am tempted, rE~ally l·~t~rnpt.ed. 1 hi'\V{~ rnet IAJ 'i. t.h I~. he management and staff of thE! GooSE! IJ,:~y 11osfd .l~.i'l.l, L...JE!Sl:eJ"n Mornor·.i. c:,ll Hospital, StephE!nvillE!

HospH~al, 11 e ll. ( s l..-:1 n d : I o s p :i. t-.• :~ 1 , G t' a c e Hospital, the Gener·al Hosp:itc~l. ,;~nd so on dnl'l so on. T do not. need the hon. member to set up llltc'(~U.ngs For· liii'J, J: hcwc,' HWr:~t :i.ngs a] 1 the tirnE:~. Meetings corning out o 1- rn y e a r s ! T ,;~ rn o p e n to a n y invitation tha ·l anyone IAJants to s E! n d l'llfc~ <~l n d T ~~~ U. l t'l o rn y b e s t 1·.·. o No. 52 R2826

accommodate th~::~m. I m~H·)t wi.th people who come into the office, to l:h~::~ dE:!partrn~::~nl.:. T go l:o t:ht:~ hosp"itaJ.s, and so on and so forth. So I do noi: rH:~erl l:hE:~ hon. member to set up meetings. I have a v 1::~ r y g o o d g r· a s p of Ill h '" l: i. s g o i. n g on at thE:~ Health Sc:i E:H1ces Complex, a J.ot: bettc:H' U1dn 1-.he hon . IIH :~rnber·, I 1~10 u J d !> u g g est . MR. FENW[CK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPF.:AKfR: The hon. the member for Menihek . MR. FENWICK: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Minister of Labour (Mr. Blanchard).

It has to do with the general. question of health and safety at the Newfoundland Envi.roponics operation. We have been told by peopJ.e lAJho opt:H'f.ll:e thf~ ambul.anc(:~S in this city that they have r· e c e i. v E:~ d f r· c-:~ q u o n 1: c a 1 l. s 1.: o t h c,1 Newfoundland Enviroponics o p e r a 1·: i o n 1~. o pi c k u p i ru :l i. IJ i. d u A l s IJJho have been injured in i.ndustr·i.Al. dcc'"LdE~nts,. l:he Hlos ·l·. serious of which are involved with hed 1: pr·o~; tr·a t:i.on. My qur,~s 1.: i.on l:o t.hc,~ r·ll'i.n.i.ster· ·i.~;: Have you r·E~ceivCi:~d any cornpJ atni:s d b 0 l.l 1: l: h i.

S p <'\ r t i C II J. d r k 'l n d 0 F pr·obJ.c,~m through your· Occupational 1·1 e aJ L h ''~ n d Sa f E:~ 1:: y 0 f f t c f.~ , r:l n d IAJ h a 1: have you done as a r·esult of it? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Labour. MR. BLANCHARD : The anslAJE:~r is no, Mr. Speaker, I have not receivE:~d any, but that does not mean that the Occupational Health and Safety Diviston may not have received complaints.

But I IAJ.i.ll undertake L2827 June 9, 1988 Vol XL l·.:o E:~nq11 "i.r·t~ ~~nd l.t:!'l~. the hon. m~Hnber· know tomorrow whether we haVE! r'E:1C~d'H~d any cornpl,:~in"Ls of unsafe conditions at the Newfoundland Enuiropontcs operdtion. MR. FF.:NWlCK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplE!mentary, the hon. thE: ' IIIC:'!Iflbr-H' !'Or' r"if.Hl:i.hek. MR. FENWICK : r"' r . ~) p e a k e r , a s 1··. fw m i n i s t. e r knows, it is requil"ed undE!r The 0 c c u p r.l i". i. o n a 1 H t:~ i'l l. 1.: h c:J. n d Sa f e t. y A c t to have cornmi ttees establishE!d in each work location.

Could the minister stand up and assure us t.hat a cornrnit:Lc-:!c has bE!BI'l established then!, that it is function:i.ng, is moni.tor'.ing the health hazards in that part:i cular operation, and that it 'is in a situation to make sure that ~~rnploy~~c,1s l~hc:!r'c,~ ar·~~ lAJor·k "i.ng under safe conditions? AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Labour . 1'-,R. BLANCHARD: f\J o , r"' r . ~> p e .;, k r~ r' , r. c cl n n o t a s ~; u r· C"! thE:~ hon. mE~rnber· at: this par·t:J.culiH' l:'i. rne, b11t, ag.:l ·i.n, 1 IMi.ll chE!Ck that ouL.

There is a requil"E:1mE:Hll ror· I~Jor·kpli:'\Ce ll(:~i'111:h i'll'ld SafE!ty Cornrni ttE!BS and I will check that ou-t: dnd lc'!t ht1n kno1.~oJ l::he dl"lSIAJE~r· l:.o both questions tomorrow. MR. FENWICK: Mr· . Sp~::~ak(:~r, f Lnal supplernen tary. MR. SPEAKER : A final supplementary, the hon . t:h(:1 membE:~r· for· Mc:!niht:~k. MR. FENWICK: No. 52 R2827

T h 0. F :i. n i;t} s h or L q 11 e s L :oi. o n t s IAH-:! have been told by ind :ividuals who IAJOr'k '!:her'(,~ that i·:he t-.E!Inpr-:!r'a l:11r ·u on a sunny day around two or· three o ' c l. o c k i n 1-: he a f i: ~~ r no o n r· i s t:! :; above 125 degrees Fahrenheit. Could the Minister ask his inspectors to inspect the operation on a continuing basis on sunny days over the next week or so and bring back to this House some indication on whethE!r or not indeed these are the working conditions these individuals have to endur·(:~? MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Minister of Labour. MR. BLMJCHAIW: Mr.

Spe~ker, the way is open to dny employeE! -i.n dny !AJOi~kp1dC0., whc-'!ther thE:H'e :i.s a committee or not, to tnak:~ a colflpl.dini·. 'l:hro11gh the:~ D~~paH :r11ent of Labour·. It does not halH~ to done in .-1.ny IAtr·:i . Lten form or anything l:ike that . They C r:'l n p :i. C k II p l: h C:' t (~ J e p h 0 n l) . 1 r'" they c~Jled my office I would r· e f c:! r i·. hE:' rn . B 11 1:. l: h ~) i'l n s we ,~ r i. s 1 have not had a single compl.a:int. I do no ;: know L F my De p 1.1 i··. y has , or whe:~i:he1n the actual clerical staff or inspectors hdve hcid i'l complaint.

We are very concerm~d a b o u t. '" n y c o 1n p 1 a i. n t. s a n d t h e y <H' e followed up promptly. So I will get answers to ·that for the:~ han. ge:~ntleman by tomot'TOIJJ, Mr·. Speaker . MR. KFLLAND: rJtr . S p C:~ a k E! r· . MR. SPI ·~r1KER : The hon. t.he mE!mbE:~r for· Nasl<aupi. M r~ . K E I_ L MJ D : Thank you, Mr·. Speaker·. T IAJOU] d to i··.hp L2828 like to direct a question r-1t n :i. s u~ r· or l·h~ al : h . r n JuncC! 9, 1988 Vol XL l. <~ y :i. n g t-. h f.;! b a s i ~; f o ;· ·t. h e q 1.1 c,~ s I: ·i. o n , Mr.

Speaker, I would likE! to rm:Hl'i:. :i. on +.: hd 1.: "'- f f~IAJ ruo n·t h s ago· an announcement was mad .e of CE!rtain c u 1-: s 'i. n s 1:: a f f t'l n d s f~ r v "i. c t~ <:l t t: h e GrenfelJ. Regional Health Servi.CE!S, the object bei.ng to save about $250,000 to the end of the 1987 -- 1988 fi .scal year. There IAJas some implication, or an impression at least, that these cutbacks were temporary at the tirTH:1. I arn wond .er·ing IAJOIJl.d the;! minister confirm whether or not that is so? MR . SPEAKER : ·rhe hon. the~ M-Ln-Lst~;:~r· of Hec:J.l.th . DR.

COLLINS: lhes~~ arr;! :i.n U·w Gr ·enfell Hc,,al.l ::h Services? MR. I<FLLAND : Gr•r ,~nfC "!ll. Hr:~i::t l l:h s{ ~rv ·i.CC:~S . 01~. COl.. I.. rNS: Mr. Speaker·, I do not have the clc! 1:. c:-1. J J. ~; r· i. lJ h 1-. -L n f r' o n 1·. o F llH:~ n OIAI . I '"Ji.J.l haVE! to take :Lt as notice. l'l11l: my llndc.;!rstr.tnd-Lng is t·.hat the Grenfell Hospital is by no TnE!ans 11ndc"Jr pr·essiJrt: ~ i.n b>.nns oF bl =!ds. As a matter of fact, they have beds th.:lt r.·une und(.;!rl.ll:. ·i.lized' . The MeJ.ville Hospital has quitE! a numbe:H' of flex 'i.bi .l..it.:ies.

There are many beds there that are und~?.r·uti.l:i.zed. WhE!tl I IAJas in it last there was a whole war·d tol::dl.ly empty . My understanding is that the amount of money that was giuen th is year, which was greater than last year - there wa s a percentage increase tn the funding given this year over last yedr ts d.dequate Funding for their nE!eds. NOIAJ, t.I·H,~Y rni:ly IAJe11, l.i.kc,~ all hospitals, at par·ticular tirnes h d lJ e a c.l"i. f f t c 1 1 J. t y I~J h E! n s om(~ o n e goes on holiday, because t:hE!Y do n o t: h d

l) e l d I" g e , J. d r· g e n u rn b (;! In s o f No . 52 R2828

specialist nurses or specialist laboratory technicians, in some of those hospltal.s. If someone has to take annual leave, they may be under· a bi 1.: of di.ffi. Cli1l:y and may have to reduce their ser·vices S OmC->.IJJhd t. to check i.nto l:hE! the hon. merni:H:~ r 1 s T IAr"i.ll deta:ils ques U .on, h:i fll. hdve of dnd l wi. ll. g e L br:'\Ck l".o MR. KeLLAND : A supplomenlary, Mr. Speaker . MR. spr:11KER: A suppleruentar·y, the hon. the rnt'!lnbc,n· for Naskaupi. . MR. KELUlND: I IJJas not just ref erring to the Melvil.lr:~ Hospital., Mr· .

Speaker·, but rather the Grenfell Regional Health Services which serves at least four districts. There were cuts not only in the major hospital but also along the coast, the n u r' s l n g s t a 1:. ions and so on , security staff and maintenance staff, thi. ng s of l:.ha 1.: na tur·e, thE:~ object being, as I said, to save $250,000 by l:he end of the fi.scr:~l year. MR. SPEAKER: Order, pJease! MR. 1\FLI..flND: Ju~;L as dl1 c,~ x p J. dna t :i. on , Mr· . ~:Opeai<E:!r. Thes~ ,! Jayoffs d:id t~kE! place and SOifiC:' pos:i.i :·Lons IAJE!i~<;! no!: ·fi.lJ.ed.

I arn IAJond~~r·ing if the rn:in:Jster· would u n d e:~ r t i:l k c,~ i: o a n :; IAJ e r IAJ h o t h ~>. r· o r n o '1:. any of the positions that lAJere deleted al: UH ,~ time, i.n IJJhat IJJas believed to be a temporary measure, IAJere r·c,~instat~;;!d, or IAJi.ll some of them be reinstated, as far as he knows? L2829 June 9, 1988 Vol XL MR. SPE~KfR: The hon. the Minister of Health . DR. COLLINS: r"' r· . s p e d !< (:~ r , A s 1 m ~~ n t :i. o n E! d , I will have to check into that to m a k c~ s 1.1 r· c,~ I do no ·i: g i. v e a n y misleading information.

But I tll.i.'.!Jhl: Jnc,~ni:..i.on, r:~J.so, l:hat: !::he Minister responsible for Northern nf j-i.-d . r• :; (r'lr . ~,Ji'\ I" i" E! r1) IAJ"i.l.l be having meetings shot~tly with l:hE! c; r' e n f C! J. J. 13 o .:1 i" d , ·'lrlll L: h c,~ C r' P n FE~ ll Board itself has I:H:~gun an :ind€:~pth study of i:hH hPdll:h rweds of the ar·ea and what resources are neE!ded l:o III~H:~ t U1o sf:! nt :~Pch ; , t.o ~; fH~ :if there is an appropriate tailing toge !.:her or· com"i.ng t.ogE!i::hf:!r' of thc,1 needs with the resources available. I will have to get dE!tails . The hon. member said there were some layoffs .

I wiJ.l have to ge:~t the detai.l.s if there were and what they were, and the nature of thE! layoffs, the extent of them . MR. KELLAND : A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker . MR . SPEAKER: A final supplementary , the member for Naskaupi. r'lr~. KEI.I .. AI\JD: th e hon .. My final supplementary, Mr. !3pe: ~aker': T 1.: has bc~E:~n po·et Ly IJ.I(!ll established that a new hospital is re:~q wi . red for 1.: hf) Hd pp y Vall C:! y Goose Bay area. In viE!IAJ of l:hat a n rl i n td ,,, w o F 1: h E:~ fa c l:·. 1: h i!t 1:. t: h E• Grenfell annual rE!port indicated that demand +.: h e r· t'!

"i. s a n i. n c r· u d s E:~ ln for services, is the m:i.ni.s l::co!r' i:IIAJ<H'c,~ of r.\ny ant i.c .ipated further cuts in funding to the Grenfell sysl:em wh"i.ch may result in fewer positions filled? MR . SPEAKER: The hon. the . Minister of Health. No . 52 R2829

DR. COLL 'Cf\J!":): Mr. Speaker·, the Gr·enfell Boctrd has bc-:~c~n inFtH'Hir.-:~d of l·_hE:~ Fund i.ng ~ssigned to them for the year as a r r.-:~ s 1.1l.l of 1.: h ~) b 1.1 rl g e 1: pas s "i. n g i. n this House. ThE:1Y, I bE:~lieve, have->. l'fictde i:h1:dl" plans 011 lhH b~s i.s of thE:~ fund:.i.ng availablt~ to them. I a1n not awar·e of c\ny ongo i.ng restraints that they are going to have to put .in place. I be1iE!V~:> they have already gotten their plans fully ar-ranged, how to us{~~ the money we have allotted to them. MR. BAKER: Mr. SpeakE:~r. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. thE:1 member for Gander. 1'-1 R .

B A I< E R : rhank you, Mr. Speaker . To the Mi.ni .s l:tH' of C;H·eer· DeVE!lopment and Advf.lnced Studies (Mr. Mc:~i.:l :he,lJS): ll·w rrdni.stc!r' i.:; CII~JaJ~e of thE:' casE1 of Cl gir·l fJ"om G.~ nd (;! t' 1~1ho, c:~ft (~ r s pt:! nd :i. nlj i·.:t~Jo weeks ~t Harbinger, is now r·espons ·i.b1E:1 for· a full yei:H'' s tuition. I would like to ask the rnini.s·l:.{-O!r, fi.r·st of aJ.l., how rnany other students WE!re r·ipped off in a simi_l.i:H' rnr:tr111<->.r·? L'llhd.t IJJOul.cl the total amount of money involved be?

Does the minister believes there may be other students in the Province in a similar situation whose cases thE! minister· doE:1S not know about, t.uhi c h may come to light in the future? MR. MATTHEWS : Mr . Speaker. MR . SPEAKER : The hon. the Minister of Career Dev<::~lop!TI{-O!nt and Advi:\l'lCtHI !.3+.-.ucl'.i.,~s. Mr·. Sper'\!<er, 1 t.:t1ank 1~11<,~ hon. mernbE!I" for· his qUE!Stion . For· the 1_?.830 J u rw 9 , 1. 9 a !3 Vol X I_ y e a r· s '1. 9 n 6 l 9 ll 7 l-. h '~ r· e a r· c~1 F o u r· students who have been affE!Cted in c:t nPg<'li.il)t~ l~li:IIJ, and tn l9B7- 1988 some eighteen students.

And i:he l:otaJ arnoun L: of 111oney 'Lnuol.v~>.d is 25,700-and-some-odd dollars. So Uw pari :_.i.c11J.ar s t:udE!I'li: the hon . member has talked about is owed some money Frorn Har·blnger· because of thE! bankruptcy, in E!SsencE! shE! i s a c r· E:1 d j_ t o r of t h e s c h o o 1 . ' I have talked to the hon. member abo u.t i t. on a n urn b tH' of o c cas ions and what we are in es sence suggesting to those students is that they make representation to the Secretary of State (Mr. Crombie), who is responsible for thE~ progr·am. It is a Cani:-lda Student Loan Program. And ~Je are \) E:1 t' y w:i.

J.l. i. n g 1: o i'l s s 'i. s t stu cl E! n t s .in prE! paring documentation to ask thE! ~:) c c r e L d r· y o f ~3 t "' U J t o c o n s i. d e r· writing off the:1 debt. WhE!the:H' l-.:hr.-:1y IJJ :i.ll or·· no! : is too <~~arly to prt:~dict, but we ar'E! VE!ry wj.lJ.ing +:o ass i.si: -i.r·J i"Cpr(~sent:dJ-.: ·:i.on t:o make the->. Secl~t:1-Lar·y of State aiJJiH'E! of r:~ l.l o r 1: he f .:1 c 1.-. s and 1.: h (;1 n t h <~ y may just cons'idE!r writing of LhE· cl e b 1.:. MR. B()KER : The m'inister is a~Jare, Mr . SpeakE!r' Ml~. SPEr:lKER : Order, please! The time for Oral Questions has elapsed. MR.

BAKER: Mr. SpE~akrH', ·Uwr'r.-:' iH'E1 l:IAJO rninul:r:1S left . 0 0 0 A po:i.nt of or·d<:H', Mr·. Sp~~aker· , l\Jo . ")/. 1~2B30

MR. SPEAKER : A point of order, l:he:1 hon. the:~ member· for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr . Speaker, I am not questioning the,~ SpeakC:~r's r·uli.ng f:ll·. r!tl.l, b•1t I am just wondering if there has been a mistctke made. [ understand from the table that when Your l1onour scli .d l:he l:i .1111:~ For Oral QuesLLon Pe,H·:iod ex pi red, there was c:~ t lt·) i'l s i: i!l 1rri. n 11 L e J. of 1: . MR. SPEAi<F.[~ : I tool< note of when we started and it was 3:0S, clCcor·d·i.ng l:.o wy t·.iu1e . MR. TUI.i<: It Js not quite 3:35 yet . r~r~ . SPEAKER: Wht::HI I called for the next i tern, .it. was 2 5 mi. n u b:~ s to . MR.

MATTHEWS: Check your· eyes . MR. YOUNG: Go to the Speaker and get your eyes tested. Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees DR. TWOMEY : Mr. Speaker· . MR. SPFAKFR: The,, han. the M:inistE.H' of Public ~"llorks . DR. TWOII-1f.'(: Than I< you, Min. Spea I< r::~r. I IJJ:lsh to t.:~b1e .i.n l:lri.s han. 11\)JISc-:~ a Repor·t of the Public Tender Act I:XCE!pl.ions for· thu rnont:h of M1 :-1y, 1988. SOME HON. MEMBERS: L2831 JurH~ 9, 1988 Vol. XI_ Hear, hear! MR. BLANCHARD: Mr·. Speake:~r. MR. SPEAKER: T h 0. h o n . 1:: h t,~ M 'i. n -.i. s t {H' of L a b o u r . MR. 3 U~NC11A RD: Mr .

Speaker, I wish to prE!SE!nt to +·. h e h o n . l-1 o u s c-:1 L h e f i.r- ~; 1: a n 1·1 u i!tl report of the Workers' COinpE!I"lSdl...i.on App~~r!tl Tr·:i.b•.1ndl. of Newfoundland i:Hld Labrador·. Notices of Motion MR. WINDSOR: Mr ·. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : 'J"he hon. l:.hc,~ M-Lni.sl-: .c;!r of F:inance. MR. WINDSOR: M r .

S pea k e r· , 1 g .i. v e no ti c e t h a t I will on tomorrow move that the l-1 o u s e,~ r· c->. s o l v e .i. t: s ("! l f .i n t o a Committee of the Whole to consider c e r· +: cd n r· c-:~ s o l u t "i. o n s r· e l a t .i n g to the advancing or guaranteeing of cor· La i.n J.oans rni:\de under· Th(~ Loan and GurH'ant.~H~ Act, 1957. MR. BRETT: Mr . Spectker . MR . SPEAKER : Tl 'l(o! hon. the Ministc:H' of Mun:i.cipc~J. Af ("·~d. Y' ~; • MR . BRETT : Mr. Speaker, I give not:ice that I IAI"i.J.J on LOIIIlHTOIAJ dsk l.t:!dVt'! l":o introduce a bill entitle:•d, "An Act To A1111;:~nd r·hf.!

MIHdci.paJ.lties Act.." T i'l.l.so give nol: -i.ce tomorrow ask leaVE! bill entitled, Incorporate The No . 5?. l:hdt 1 1.~.dl.l on to introduce a "An Act To City Of Mount 1~2831

PE:~arl . 11 ::mr~F. HOf\J. MEMB F: RS: He<:.~r·, h~~ar! Answers to Questions For which Notice has been Given DR. TWOMEY: Mr . Speaker. MR . SPEAK~R : The han. the Minister Works and Services. of PubJ.ic DR. TWOMEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I 1.1.1 is h !: o tab 1 e .i. n t: his ii o us c,~ UH~ answer to a question on the Order Paper. T'he Qut~stton number is 179. It was asked by the han. member for Burgeo - a.:~y c:l' Espoir· (Ml". Gil. bert) . Orders or the Day DR. COLUNS: Mr.

Speaker, I r"'o t i. on 1. 1. . r haVE:! agl"eement Lhe Hou s (,1 t:o E:!it:her bi"ought am going to call 1.1 n d e r s t d n d IAH::~ d o fl'·om all pt:lrts of h"' IJ e this rno t: i. on Forward now for acceptance or voting, without debate, OJ" pE:~rhaps by very bri~~f debclte. That is Motion 11 . rt ls thE! one that ·!:he han. Minister Responsible for Nor·thern Development (Mr. Warren) gave noticE:~ of yesterday and i 1: r·elr.:ttes to the action of the British Parliament in regulations on the fur products. rc'lgar·d labE!lling to of I lhink that we intend to get this mo 1: i. on v o t '"~ d on 1-. o d ct y .

W h '"~the r· IAH"~ do it without debate or very brief d(>.bctb:~, 1 do not knoiAl. You IAJi:lnl: L.283?. June 9, 1988 VoJ. XL five minutes, is it? MJ HON. Mf.MB r: R : Oh, no. OR. COLLINS : Okay. Mr . Speaker, I call Motion 11. then, and the hon. mi.nlster will just read the motion . r"'R. TU l .. K: If I could, Mr. Speaker, L:he M:i.ni.s 1-.:c:!r' for· Nor· t·.:hc:!r'n :into lt. MR. SPEAKER : The han. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: bE!fOr'E ! g E! t s We'! !'lave agreE•d with thE!

MinistE!r for Northern Development that indeed the question should be put, •:l n d ·t-. h ct t .i. 1: s h o ul d be p 1.1 t. wi t h o u t debate. So we arE! rE!ady for th~:! vote on !.:hal~ question. MR. WARREN: Mr· . 3pc~dkel" . MR . SPFAKFR : ThE:' hon. t-hE! Minister of NorHwn1 D c-) IJ o 1 o f>IIIE:~ n l: .. MR. WARf~EN: Mr. Speaker, I have no problem tAd l:.h i. l·:. Ther·e i'li"(?. just !:.tAJO IJJor ·ds I wish to chc-lnge in ·t:hE• l~oso l1Jt:·i.on: 11

WHEREAS the Fed~>.ral governmE!I1t, on W~:!dnesday, Mc-1y 31, 1 9 H 8 , 11 I wo u 1 d 1 i. b:~ to c hang e t h i. s by saying, 11 Unanimously condE!mns such action . 11 I have r'E!ad a transcript of the debate in the iiousE:~ oF Cornrnons c:lnd that is actuaJ.Jy what the twenty-two mtHnbers spokt::~ of, fr·orn thE! thr·ee parties - "unanimously condE!rnns such action." In the third last SE:'ntE!nCE!, I I.IJC:Hlt to say, 11 Advi .se +:.hE:~ Govr~;"nment of Britain, 11 instead of saying, 11 U n i i::::! c:l I< J. n g d o rn . " ~,Ji. 1:: h t h E! s (~ No. 52 R2832

a111endments, I have no probl.(:~m . MR . SPEAKER: Is the House ready for the Question? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Yes . MR. SPEAKER: All those .in favour· please say, 1 Aye 1 • please s;:~y, 1 Ndy 1 • 0 r UH~ rno 1.: ~t () n Those against Th(:~ rnoLion is cctrri.ed, IHlctnj.lfiOt.lsly . ~~ o i:. i. o n , s E:~ c o n d r· e ad .i. n g o r i:l b l.l. l. , 11

An Act l~espc-'!ctjng Thf=~ N~:!IJ,JfoundJ.dnd Hosp ·it .dl r-Ind Nt.lr's ing Home Associat:ion. 11 (Rill No. 20) MR. SPfAKFR : r h c-) h o n . t h e rJt 'i. n i s l: e r o f H e i'l1 t h . DR . CO I_ L li\JS: Mr·. Speaker, just a briE!f wor ·d of explanation about our order of business. The han. the Minister of Justice (Ms V~H·gc~~) .i.s not available today. On th~<:~ last day we adjourned debate on Bill 23, that is The Act To Amend The Legal Aid Act. The han . Mlnls ter· of Justice will be back on Tuesday, I thlnk, and we have had agr·eement that we would delay further conslderatlon of that bill un til she returns. ~3o 1.ue are now on Bill (20), 11

An Act Respc~cL-Lng ThE! Neu.Jfoundlr.\nd Hosp:ital And Nursing HornE! Associ .dLi.on. 11 Th :i.s 'i.s a IJC'!i"Y sltor·t bill, Mr. SpE:~aker·. It is in lhe f"onn of a neiJ,J bill, a1UJOtlgh t.he::~ rc-'!ason why lt is in the form of a n I::~IJ,J b i. 1.1 'i. s t-.11 d t 1-. he :1 c L i. s so !;hol~t that wher·~<:~ thEH'e has to bE! i:l fHIAJ rH~~CE:~SSi'lry arn~~t'ldlllE:~ni·:.S, IJ,JE! just said WE~ may as WE:~ll br·ing in ct new bill rdlher than try to c1111end thE:~ other one, which was very brief dnyway.

L2833 Jum~ 9, 1988 Vol XL The Newfoundland Hosp ital Association Act was passed in 1960 and 1-.hat cr·eat.ed The Ne1.u ·Foundland Hospital Association. In 1985 the Department of HeaJ.th t.ook over responsibiJ.ity for chronic care lnstitutlons from the Department of Social Services. At that ·l:irnc~~ the Assoctation broadened lts mandate so that it not only dE!al t with hospitals, but also dealt with nursing homes . Indeed, the nursing horne aspect h a s be c om e::~ ;:~

I) l:! r· y :i. rn p or· U :~ n t par' t of this association now to thE:' :~xLerJ'i·. th;:~l~ the:' pr·o.~;i.d~!ncy of thP association has bE!E!I'I sornE:! pE!OplE! frorn l:hc,~ ntn·s:i.ng honll~ sc~~ct.:or·, not: from the hospital sector. The new b :i.J.l. n 01~1 IAJ:i.l.l lvw e:~ a n eiAJ n a nH~ an cl , as was mE!ntioned in intr·oducing tho. ord~:-H', i.l : u.Ji.ll no1~1 bP. call.e::~d not The Newfoundland Hospital Associ.r.lti.on, but Tht~ N~~t.ufoundland Hospital And Nursing Horn e Associati.on. Thai:. :is l:!s~>E~I'l'l: .'l.alJ.y, Mr. Speaker, the main point of thi.s bi 11.

The rc-:~s t of thE~ bi11 lfiE!iHJS VE!ry little change from what was in the older bil.l. ThE:~re are no sjgnificant changes. For instance, Clause 3, sets out j u s t Uw o b j E'! c t i. v e s of L he association; ClauSE! 4, SE!ts forth cc,~r·+.:di.n poi>~JE:~rs of l::hl:! i·lssoc .i.ijlt:ion not different From the powers that tm,~re:~ ht~J.d by Thl~ Hospit:aJ.

Association; Clause 7 g:ivE:~s a s Li"IIC l'.llr'f:~' l:hc, 1 fJOr.li"d of o-i.r' E-)Ctor·s; CJ.aus~<:~ 8, the association rnay make bylaiJ,Js; Cl.r.~1~sc~ 9, 'i.l :. rnr.~y este1bJ.:i .sh a pension plan for the bE!nE!fj t of ernploy~-:~es dnd ~;o on. fJ!r . ~:l p e"' b:! r , I 9 u c:! ~; s Uw only other · point to be brought to hon. rn c;! 111 b l~~ r· 1 s d L 1". E:~ n +:. -.i. on ·i. s 1·:. hat thE! older biLl. held in it.: a pr·ovisjon thdl· .: upon r·l~~quest, i.n IAw·.i ·l:"i.ng, t:he No. 52 R2833

L:i.(~U ~:(~nant ·GOUE!t'nor :i.n Counci .l. couJd ask the association to t' e n d e r' r.1 n Cl c c: o u n 1-: o f i. L s properties and affClirs. Now, in ·i:he I:IJ.Jenty -ont! IJE:~r:li~s of c,~x.i.sten,:e of The:~ HospitCll Association, they l1lc!lJI:~r· had Lo do thr:·\'1.-. becaiJse ·l:hl:~ LieutenClnt-Gouernor in Council just never considered t~ necess~ry to ask for a rE!port j n that way. It i. s a v l:! r· 1J IAJe J. l. r 1.1 n orgClnization. That provision of thE:~ act IJ.Jas netH~r usc~d. ~>o, l::hlC! rH:~Lu bill now wiJ 1 just dJ"OP that provisi.on. So with those words of explanation, Mr.

Speaker, I moue second reading. MR. EFFORD: Mr . Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the mernb.:!r for Pot' t de Grave:~. MR. fFFORD: rJlr· . ~) p r,~ c:'l k (:~ r , t l·w h 011 . rwL n .i. s l: E! r· i. s qu:i.te corrE:!Ct in what he j.s saytng. It 'i.s jus L a mai:tr,~r· or housekeE:~p:i.ng to combine The i\h~lJ.Jfoundlc:Hld Hospital ~ct iHJd ·rhr,~ Nursing Home Association Act under o n E:~ a c L . :1:'1... i s q u i l'. e:~ L i' 1.1 e , '" s L h l:~ mi11ister said, prior to 1984 it I'Jds IHJclr,)l" l:.hE! fh!p.u·l'.rnr,~nl'. ol~ Socidl.

Ser·v:i ces and since then has now com~:~ under Lhe M:i.n:i.s l:or· of HeaJth' s r·esponsibility. While it is simple housekeeping to c om b i. n e 1: h ~~ 1r1 u n cl fH' H1 E:~ o n e d cl:. , the problems surrounding the h e a 1 t h c a r· E! s y s t E! m i n ti'H :1 hospitals in our Province and e s p e c i a 11 y , if HHC! r e i. s an y t h .L n g more special than hE!al th carE!, it .i.s 1~.he:~ ag i.ng c1nd thl:1 nur·sing hornc,~s situation in the Province. Ther·e ;u·e a number of are going to hctue 1,_ :>. B 311. June 9, 1.98H qu0sttons we to ask the Vol . XL lid ni S l'.E:~ r· rHld he:~ "i.

S go'i. ng to hi:lV Cc! to be responsible to see these qtH:~st·i.ons •H'P. iHISIAJE!Y' ·P.d .i.l'l · i:'l cot"rect manner that satisfies the 0 p p o s i L .. i. on . ll·. :i. s no 1·. the:~ Opposition, I should not say that, I:H~Cdi~SO IAH~ cH'~~ asking tl·wtn on behalf of the people of Lhe Prov'i.nce. this into ~'lie~ clo nol: IAJr:ln'i': l:o political rhetoric gc->.t and l'.h~~ qtJesl:'i.ons !::hat: ar·,~ ansJAJer'(->.d get thrown back as an att.ack on the Opposi.t'i.on for the irresponsibility of trying to br·'i.ng politlc;:\1. i:ltl:ent .. i.on to themselUE!S because this is not: the o as ~::1 , I as s IH' e the Minis t: e r of Health and this han.

House. The situation with the aged of our P r· o v i. n c l'! i s b G y o n d t h e e:~ x p l a n a t i o n of words.

The seriousness of l:he condition in wh.lch the peopJ.r:~ are living affects the questions we h "' v l:~ I:H~ E! n a s k i. n g UH'! 1n .l rl'L s t e r i n the House over the last several tAIE:HC! k s , con c e r· n in g t h ~~ s j, l··. u c1 l.: i. on 61 t the hospitals and the cost of opr=!r·ai ·.·i.ng i:.hl:~ hospitals. r h ~::~ 1·1 o ~; p -L La 1 A ct. , very clearly, tells us that the board is r·espons.ibl.r,~ for· l:he r•lclrni.n'.i.sl:r·at..i.on and the running of the hospi taJ.s. t h ·i. ~; :i. !) IAJ h 1;! r C:~ 1·: h E:' S t;! p I'

l) b l. ~:! ITI S C 0 rn (:~ fr·om. If LJJe look at LhE! numbE!r of bE:'ds t·.a!<E:~n 11p ·i.n l·:hE! hosp:i.i:.als IAJ·ith chronic care and IJ.Je combine that t~dth i:ht~ I'ILIJIIbr:H' of I:H:!ciS cJ.osc,~d each year, the min:lstE!r tells us t h o s f'~ b <:! d s a r· P c 1 o s <'' d in 1:: h C:' Summertime because peopJ.e do not prefer to go into hospital in Summertime, that is the reason IJ.Jhy he t e 11 s u s U~t:! bE:~ d s <:l r e c 1 o s E! d , nevertheless, the beds are closed . Dr. Young, the former President of l·:hl:~ M~~cl-:i.cal. Assoc·i.mi-..lon, S1:l.Ld uc->.ry publicly last week, and very 1\Jo. S2 f~283lt.

clearly, that the r·eason why the bt~ds ;-u·e closed i.s beccwse of budgetary cuts and because of the restra ·ints and l:he amount of rnoney that each individual hospital has to oper·ate on. Thc->.y havt~ to do this each YE!ar in order to come tAlithln the budget. It: is a furthE!r strain put on thE! rnanagc->.rnent dtld the~~ adm'intstr·ator·s of all the hospitals. We arE! not talking specifically about the Heal Lh Sciences Con1plex .

That is the pr·oblern we arH tr·yJng l-.o gc- )1: through to the Minister of fh~ al t h . l t .i. s n o t: j u s t 1·.: h e H e a l. 1: h Sciencc->.s Complex who is ~~~ncounl·.(:!r··i.ng thHse probJ.t:~ms i.n UH"! health care system, but it is P r• o v .. i. n c c,~ 1.~J"i. d c:~ , ·.i. n e\J. J. t h E:~ rna j o r· hospitals and in all the smaller· hos pi.l'·.aJ. S. rherc~ J. S no d :i. ff"erc~Hll: t:~ fl~om one hospital to another in 1-. h e P r o IJ i n c 8 . T h C:' pro b l. 01 n w F.! h .:w e h t::~ r c,~ t ~' 1: o g o t thE~ rnin:ister to unde!r'stand, or to aclrni.t thei"e ·Ls <'~ problc,~nl th(~f'(~.

It is not caused by the wanage:HntHl'l.:; 'i.t i.s no+. caus(~cl by the hospital boards; it is not c a u s e d b y 1: h E! s 1: a f f ; 'i. t _L s c a u s t~ d by the fact that these peoplE! do not have the morH~Y to administer and to properly run the hospital i n t he be s t tAla y . The y c c->. r t r:d n 1 y know hotAJ to do the job, but the funds ar·t~ not avai l.able. Thr:d: Ls the problem, Mr. Speaker. Th(>. rninis+:c:!r hirns<:1lf is L:he f.ir·sl.: person to say that they are giving $6211 · HJ.il.l-i.on and il i.s no+: f~·'lSY to acce ss mor·e money to give to the h o s pi t. a l. s .

We 1.1 n de r s t·. d n d 1:. h r.1. L , but if he is serious about IJJhat he -i.S Sr.l.~ri.ng, I;Jhy 'i.S he o'l}J.Oi)J'i .ng numbers of beds 1: o be taken up by 1·. hE:~ s loHd. tH' c: i. 1·. :i. ZC"! n ~; or· 1: he chr·on:ica] ly ill of OUI" Pr·ovince? [n SOlliE! of !:he;! hospi.Lr'll.S •U'OUI1d N~~wfound] and, therE:~ aJ"e as high as l·.:tAH:~ni":y-f:i.v(:! hJ forl:y b(:!C:I~; l:aken up L2835 June 9, 1988 Vol XL and these beds cost thE! taxpayer·s and the hospi.tdl adrnin:i.s l:rr ,\t .. ion a lot of money, three timE!S ·the amount of morwy i.l: would cost to put them into a senior citizens howe.

It i.s s.imple, bas ·.ic economics. If it cost $700 a day to I<E!E!p an i.ncl'.ivldual in 1·1ospi.t.al and .Lt cost $150 or $175 a day to keep a pr.:~rson Ln Cl senior· clt . .i..ZE!I'lS home or ~nstitution, then is it not mot'f:1 economical ·1-.o do thdt .? Would that not save monE!Y on thE! heaJ.th c r.t r e s y s 1: r~~ rn so IAJe co u 1 d +.:hen h cl v c;! more rnoney available to hire on 1: h t:~ (~ x l·: r· d s t·. r.1. F f l: h d l:. a r· r.:~ net::! d f:! d , a nursing assistant, a nui~SE!, a lab l: o c: h n i c .i."' n or· , :i. n ~; 1·. <o1 a cl of c 1 o s .i. n g forty bE:~ds in thE!

HE:~alth Sc:i(HlCE!S C t:~ n I: r· r:! a t d p ,,, r· I: t c 1.1 J. a r I: ·.i 1 n e:1 , c o u 1. d we possibly have to only c1oSE! t.l;Jeni:y bt :~ds? Ther· e tAJould solve some of the problems. What the minister and the DE!par'i:rnc,~n-1-. oF l-IE:~alth J,~,riJl not do is give the peopJ.e the o p p or· tun j, t: y , 1'.: h ~~ l·i. c c-:! n s (~ , t: o construct more nursing hornes in the Provlnce whlch are so de!sperateJ.y needed.

They arE! not on1y needed by t.he:1 people out in the Province, they are nE!eded by hi.s OIJJn depar·trnc~!nl :. to save money for thE! taxpayers, to saVE! rnonE!Y on the runnlng of the hospitals so they can effectively get out there a n d d o -1-. h (~ j o b 1·: h e y d r· c->. q u '.i. t E! capable of doing. T h <:1 r· <'~ "i. s n o bod y :i. n 1-:. h l s h o n . H o u s c;! and thE!rE! is nobody in tl·d s Prouince who w 'i.11 ever say tha t the people working in these .i.ns l·.:i.'t:tJl·.iow;, '"'nd '~JOI"k ·i.ng i.n l::hE! hosp:i tals, art:' not capablE! . ThE:!Y o"'' r· (:~ q I I "i. I: (:~ c a p ;~ b l.

P. d n d 1:: h p y a (' e morE! than willing. ThE!Y ar'E! notAl LLJOrk-:i.ng l:hernsc, ~llJe~; br:!yond dny human imagination. ThE!Y ai"E! be:ing b 1.1 r· I'd'. 0 u 1: b e c: ;:~ 1.1 s c:! 1·: l·ll:' y c'\1'' u s 0 No. 52 R283S

c a p a b 1 e I s o "i. n ~~-(H' E:~ s t (:~ d a n d s o dedicated to their professions. Tl-w Mi. ni. s I:E!r oF Hei :ll i::h I lrL s department and this government are not rE~cogni.zi.ny 1-.:hai:· .. 1\JOlAJ I beds t~Jhcli: c-~lsc ,~ dor~s 1-:he c:J.ostH'E:~ do? The c1osure of beds of in l:h!:~ Sutmner· tllonl·.hs i.s c:<~lu!dng i:1. backlog in E!lectiVE:1 sur·gery. ThE:~ backlog i.n 1.: hE! 1-1 e .~-l l. 1: h ~:) c i. :~ n c: r,, s alone goE~s back to 1985.

Ther'E! are i•ldtn:i.s!; ·i_on !;l ·i.ps d."''l ·.r,~d 1.9BS where people were ready to be a cl rn :i. 1: t·. (:~ d ·l: o h o s p :i. 1.: "'1 r:'l n d d r· o s 1·. -L l. .1. not admitted. NolAJ 1 this is 1988. T h (:1 y h i:l v e b f~ e 11 U.Ji.d 1-. i. 11 g i: h r E! e y (:! oH' s to gE:1t in hospital. It is only co rnmo n sense I .i. t i . s on 1 y l. o g i c , t. o unders-tand lAJhy.

If t h e r E-) i::t r· l':1 ll-3 0 b (;! d s c 1 o s e d t h .i s Summer and those people who did not tAJant, as the mi n.i s '\:(~r· says, l:o go in hospital in JunE! and Jul.y, thE:1r(.;!fort.;! those 4-30 p(:'OPlE~ mt~s t want to get in j n Septembe!r, OctobE!t', NoVE:1tnb(-?.r, or Jmnuar·y I whenever· it is possiblE! for thE!ITI to get ln. For the number oF people thE:1n who lAJcll'lt to get in at U1d t.: pdr l:.i c l.ll.dr i:i .rn(:1, Lh{~ bHd s again iH'(~ not : thE:1r·e. How can thE! bf~ds hi:lndle -l.:hd-1-. ~)XI :rr'l br:lcklog?

If thr-.:11: cont tnu~::1s fotn four· year·s, you l'ldlH1 r:t 2, 000 or 3, 000 br:lcklog, bE~tausE:l peoplE:1 do not choose the i::ime t~o gE!l: s·i.ck . Whi.J.e the-:! minis U1r· is tt··ying to tell us they ttl;:~y choo ~; (;! th(-) L·i.tnr -) l~o <jO i.ni·.o hospj ·tetJ, tl'tE:1Y canno·l:: choose lJ.Jhen ·they g~>.-L s·i.ck. Pf~opl.!:O! gc~l: s·ick ·i.n July. People get sick in January. It is corr~on sense. SOME liON. MEMBF.RS : Oh, oh! AN HON. MEMBER : Go on! MR.

EFFORD: NotAl, 'ti-H>. two hon. rrtc::1rnber·s in l:he I 2836 JunE! 91 1988 Vol XL backbenches do not understdnd anything like that, because they arc,1 so +:akt;!n up - MR. REID: If you were back in Bay you t~Jould servr,1 your better. MR. EFFORD: n cl () c -1: () r· backbenches . J' ,, ·"' nc>.c :!dt1d Rob E!rts I d :i s t r· ..i. c t: ·i.n thE :! Mln. SpC:1akE!r', this is thE! pi"Oblern we are h~u i ng. This is not a joking situation. This is not somoUling tAJt1 can jok(,1 about. It may be thE! hon. mmnbE!r himself tornor·r•otAJ lAJho 1nay have to go in to ['l. senior citizen 1 s home.

I suggest he ls getting close to it - MR. REID: I would say you should be there now . MR. EFFORD : a s l.o~.H.;! ll. ,., s all going to Udngs one of thE! situation. IAH~ all. dr(,1. \1\JE>. i~trE! have to face those th(~se days.

Thc:1t :i.s I am not concerned about myself fl 0. ;n !) () 11 a J.J. y ·l·. 0 d i.~ y . [ IAJi .l 1. bE' concerned a few years down the r () '" d ' J r [ h r:llJ (! +: 0 fa c (:' a situation Li.ke this wher·e I coul.d be lying in an Jnstitullon for four or five hours not able to help 1nyse.lf, t~Jdi.l'..ing on sorndJOdy to carne and give me the basic E!S S ~>.nl ·.i.;:-11 .!;1 +:o help f(,'t!d tn~=· or· t:o giVE! rne a 11E:'E!dle or· u.Jhal:eVE!r, and l:h!:1 nur·s<:~s C<'lnnol· . . do il·:. It. J.s economics. That is the wholE! probl~~tn. U: ··