Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 42A (30th Legislature, 4th Session)

30-4-42a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBL Y of MANITOBA Tuesday, April 19 , 19 77 TIME: 2:30 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Honourable Peter Fox (Kildonan): Before we proceed, I should like to direct the attention of the honourable members to the gallery where we have 100 students Grade Nine standing of the lsaac Newton School under the direction of Mr. G. Litnak. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Burrows, the Minister of Continuing Education and Manpower. On behalf of all the honourable members, we welcome you here this afternoon.

Presenting Petitions; Reading and Receiving Petitions; Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees. MIN ISTER IAL STATEMEN TS AND TAB LING OF RE PORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. HONOURABLE LEONARD S. EVANS (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker' I would like to table The Annual Report of the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corpo ration for the year ending March 31st, 1976 . ., MR. SPEAKER: Any other tabling of reports? Notices of Motion. In troduction of Bills. ORAL QUES TIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. STERLING R-LYON (Souris-Killarney): Mr.

Speaker, I have a question tor the First Minister. Yesterday, I asked the First Minister about the policy of the government with respect to permitting Executive Assistants of Ministers to go into schools with NDP propaganda films. Is the Minister prepared to answer with respect to the policy of the government in that respect? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HONOURABL E EDWARD SCHREYER, Premier (Rossmere): Mr.

Speaker, as I indicated yesterday, there is only a difference of degree as between the Honourable Leader of the Opposition or I going in with respect of propaganda and, therefore, I do not see what the particular point is. If there is any substantive basis for believing that the material involved is different than would be involved if my honourable friend or I were going directly into any public speaking place, then there would be a problem. MR. LYON: Well, Mr. Speaker, I wish to hand across to the First Minister a copy of a letter, a photocopy of a letter, dated the 25th of March 1977 ... MR.

SPEAKER: Question, please. MR. LYON: Well, I am getting to it, Mr. Speaker. A photocopy of a letter dated March 25th, 1977 from the office of the Honourable the Minister of Municipal Affairs and purporting to be signed by his Executive Assistant, Mr. Bill Aiken, which has apparently gone to schools within the constituency of the Minister of Municipal Affairs. I pass this copy to the ... MR. SPEAKER: Question please. MR. LYON: ...

I pass this copy to the First Minister and ask him to comment upon the advisability of this kind of propaganda practice being carried out -(Interjection)- to comment upon whether or not his government supports this kind of propaganda practice? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. Order please. Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for Flin Flon. MR. THOMAS BARROW: Mr. Speaker, I address this question to the Minister of Mines.

Is there any truth to the rumour, are they valid, of the ore body that is supposed to have been found four miles from Flin Flon and, if so, does the government have any input into the exploration end? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. HONOURABLE SIDNEY GREEN (lnkster): Mr.

Speaker, I have always indicated that if there is ever any announcement with respect to mineral discoveries, they will be made by the people who have been responsible for the work in making the discovery, whether they be in the private sector or whether they be the moles that the Honourable Leader of the Opposition has said are not capable of finding anything. If there has been a discovery and it followed the enactment of our regulations in 1975, then it is very likely that there would be Crown participation in any such discovery. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR. SIDNEY SPIVAK: Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Industry and Commerce, the Minister in charge of the Manitoba Housing Renewal Corporation. The cost of living index for Winnipeg and other cities has just been released and would now indicate that again housing in Winnipeg and housing in Manitoba is the highest in the country. This, I believe, is the fourth consecutive month. I wonder if he can indicate what action if any the government is undertaking to 2065

Tuesday, April 19 , 19 77 try and relieve this increased cost of living in this province. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister for Industry and Commerce. MR. EVANS: Well, Mr. Speaker, I haven't seen the figures the Minister refers to. lf they are correct I'm not sure to what extent a provincial government can do that much. I'm talking about material costs, materials, a great deal of which are made or manufactured outside of the Province of Manitoba. The fact is we have the phenomenon of inflation at work and unfortunately the City of Winnipeg is not excluded from that particular phenomenon.

The government is concerned about the costs of servicing land in the City of Winnipeg, and as has been indicated, Mr. Speaker, we are endeavouring to bring serviced lots on stream into the marketplace in the near future in the City of Winnipeg. Perhaps that will have some beneficial impact on lessening the inflationary trend, but only time will tell. I'm not suggesting it will, but it will certainly be a step in the right direction. But the honourable member talks about material costs and so on, I'd like him to suggest to us exactly what a provincial government is supposed to do in that respect? MR. SPIVAK: Mr.

Speaker, to the same Minister. I wonder if he can indicate why the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation Report was not submitted forthwith to the Legislature at the commencement of the Legislature? MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I only obtained it this morning and I understand the staff worked on it � very hard and prepared it as expeditiously as possible. MR.

SPIVAK: I wonder how the Minister can indicate that answer when the Letter of Transmittal was January 25, 19 77 . . . copy and it coincides with the time of his Estimates and the inability of this side to be able to prepare properly for the Estimates without this information. MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I repeat the printed copies were only delivered to my office a matter of hours ago, just a matter of hours ago and I believe the Corporation had only received them from the printer this morning. I believe that is the case, so you have been able to obtain it and have access to it in this form within hours of myself.

MR. SPIVAK: I wonder if the Minister could indicate when the copy was submitted to the printers. MR. EVANS: I'm not aware, Mr. Speaker. I know the staff have been very concerned about getting it printed and available as soon as possible. They worked very hard and very long on this. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Radisson. MR. HARRY SHAFRANSKY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question to the First Minister in his capacity as Minister reporting for Manitoba Hydro, and I would like to first of all indicate a notice that the critic for Manitoba Hydro for the Conservative Party is not here. MR. SPEAKER: Question please.

MR. SHAFRANSKY: I would like to wish him well, having had a similar experience some time ago. I would like to ask the First Minister if he has received any communication from the Conservative critic on Manitoba Hydro apologizing for the blatant lies made by the Leader of the Opposition, namely the waste of some $605 million of taxpayers' money by Manitoba Hydro. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. LYON: I rise on a point of order. A MEMBER: What do you know about points of order? MR.

LYON: I notice that we have a few expended volcanoes on the other side that emit a bit of cr.aff now and then. Mr. Speaker, on the point of order, there was an unparliamentaryword used. Ordinarily members of the House pay no attention to what is said by the Member from Radisson. I want to assure you, Mr. Speaker, that the same feeling obtains today, but an u nparl iamentary word was used by the member. I draw it to your attention, Sir, for the usual treatment by the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Radisson. MR. SHAFRANSKY: Mr.

Speaker, I will withdraw that word and just indicate that he is a stranger to the truth. But the word he used to me, I never asked him because I don't expect anything else but the fact that he is a stranger to the truth. While I am up, Mr. Speaker, .. . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. We have completed the point of order. The Honourable Member have another question? MR. SHAFRANSKY: Yes, Mr. Speaker. This morning I would like to indicate that I erred in a particular ruling on a motion made by the Leader of the Opposition and I would like to quote Beauchesne, and this is on Page 58.

"The Speaker exceeds his authority if, without having been specially instructed by the House, he takes upon himself to alter any of his rulings which, once given, are under the exclusive control of the House. There is no precedent to show that the Speaker of the United Kingdom House, who is vested with great powers, and whose decisions are not subject to dppeal, has ever reversed his own ruling. We have had different experiences in Canada. On March 26, 19 16 , the Speaker ruled that an amendment having been voted in the affirmative there was no need of putting the question on the main motion as amended.

He was told at the next sitting that his ruling 2066

Tuesday, April 19 , 19 77 was not in conform ity with parliamentary practice. Having thus been advised from the floor of the House, he reversed his ru ling. In this case, the House took the initiative in the procedure required for correct ing an erroneous decision. On Febru ary 1s t, 19 12 , the Speaker ruled that a Motion regarding the placing of telephones in rural post offices was out of order on the principle that it appeared to involve a charge upon the revenue.

The following day he stated that upon more careful and mature consideration, he was quite sure the ruling would not be held to be well founded and he said it would b� in order if the member who had that Motion in charge to move, to have it re-instated on the Order Paper as otherwise it would be dropped." Now, Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Official Opposition made a Motion to have Mr. Spafford appear before the committee. I ruled that it was out of order. I find that I was incorrect and that the Honourable Leader will have the opportunity to make his Motion at the next sitting of the committee. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for Wolseley. MR. ROBERT G. WILSON: I have a question, Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Corrections. Can the Minister confirm that in the last twelve months that two residents of half-way houses have been r:: harged with murder and attempted murder in Winnip eg? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Corrections. HONOURABLE J. R. (Bud) BOYCE (Winnipeg Centre): Mr. Speaker, I am fu lly apprised of the situation to which the memb er refers and the answer to his question is yes. MR. WILSON: A suppleme ntary, Mr. Speaker.

What guarantee of proper supervision do we have in Wolseley and other areas that alcohol abuse will not continue on Sherburn Street and Palmerston to ensure the safety of our women and elderly people who have rights as well? MR. BOYCE: I am sorry, Mr. Speaker, but I can give no other assurance to the people in the constituency than I can give that some bailiffs will exercise proper constraint on exercising what is supposed to be their responsibil ity. Mrt. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Flin Flon. MR. BARROW: Mr . Speaker, I direct this question to the Minister of Public Works.

I understand there is a new government building going into the Flin Flon area and my question is, when will we start construction, and have you arranged a site for such a building? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Public Works. HONOURABLE RUSSELL DOERN (Eimwood): Mr . Speaker, a proposal for a provincial government building in Flin Flon is under consideration but I cannot provide any details as to site or timing at this point in time. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Roblin. MR. J. WALLY McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, it is very interesting to see the NDP hold their caucus meeting in the Legislature. Mr .

Speaker' I have a question for the Honourable Minister of Highways who is not in his chair and I will therefore, direct it to the Acting Min ister of Highways, Mr. Speaker. The question is, Mr . Speaker, I wonder if the Acting Minister of Highways can advise the House if the Department of Hig hways or the Min ister has received a petition from the residents of the Ebb and Flow area re the deplorable conditions that presently exist on public road No. 278? The second question will be, Mr.

Speaker, I wonder can the Min ister advise the House, or the Department, if they have acknowledged receipt of that petition from the residents of Ebb and Flow? The third question I would ask, Mr. Speaker, of the Minister of the Department, would he advise the House if this public road No. 278 can be brought to a standar d to meet the needs of the Ebb and Flow commun ity and the outlying area? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr . Speaker, the specifics with respect to the condition of PR 278 will be checked.

Naturally we will try to bring the surplus condition of the road up to the best possible standards commensur ate with available funds and utilization, and I should think, Sir, that it should not be too much of a chal lenge to bring it up to the standards that prevailed when my honourable friend had some say about it. MR. McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, I thank the Fi rst Min ister for those kind comments. I will send the w.:>rd out to the people of Ebb and Flow the road will be taken care of. MR.

SCHREYER: So will I, Sir, with respect to their memor y of what the condition was when my honourable friend had some thing to say about it. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Leader of the Opposition. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Honour able the Min ister of Municipal Affairs. Can he confirm that the letter, a copy of which was sent across to the Prem ier this afternoon, dated March 25 , 19 77, did go forward from his office, from his Executive Assistant in the terms as shown on the letter' and if so, how many letters of this nature were sent out? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able First Minister. MR.

SCHREYER: Mr . Speaker, having had an opportunity to peruse the letter, I find as I suspected, that it has to do with an offer to speak to school classes with the assistance of visual aids or slides, and that reference in the letter is, that in the event that the Minister is not available, he would 2067

Tuesday, April 19 , 19 77 be able to do so. So it does differ only in degree from a circumstance in which a Minister or any memb er of this Assembly does in fact address a school class. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, my question to the Minister of Municipal Affairs still stands; would he please answer it? MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I was asked a question, then I was forwarded a letter. I've perused tre letter and I've just answered.

If my honourable friend isn't satisfied with my answer, that's another matter, but I want to now put it clearly on the record that it is indeed only a difference in degree as to whether a Minister makes a speech or if he does so with the accompaniment of slides, or if he has someone on his behalf do so, with the accompanime nt of slides. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, my question to the Min ister of Municipal Affairs still stands. Did this letter go forward from his office, and how many copies were sent out? A MEMBER: The answer was given by the First Min ister. MR. LYON: No it wasn't.

Can the Minister not answer for himself any more? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honour able First Min ister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I have no problem with each and every one of my colleagues answering. I assume that the Minister of Municipal Affairs will answer in a matter of moments. I have no problem with respect to the conduct and deportment of my colleagues and I, Sir, do not manipu late behind the scenes. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister for Municipal Affairs. HONOURABLE BILLIE URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I regret that I wasn't in the House yesterday.

The matter that the Leader of the Opposition raises - there was a contact made with the superintendents of two school divisions and an offer made from my office, and the information given by the superintendents was that we should contact individual school teachers who teach public affairs if they desired such a program. As a matter of fact there has been a response to have this presentation shown in one of the schools. There has been an interest shown.

And if the Leader of the Opposition feels that this in some way will propag andize the people of Manitoba, I think he belittles the integrity and the knowledge of the people of Man itoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Leader of the Opposition. MR. LYON: I wonder if the Min ister, Mr. Speaker, could tel l us how many of these letters were sent out from his office? MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Speaker, there are several high schools in my constituency. ! would assume that teachers who conduct public affairs' programs and classes in their schools would have been contacted by the names of the superintendents of the school divisions presented us. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Point Douglas. MR. DONALD MALINOWSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise on a point of privilege. I have here a copy of the Free Press dated April 15, in which it is reported that I am a Conservative MLA. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. MR. MALINOWSKI: Mr.

Speaker, that report has caused me a very embar rassing weekend because of the many calls I received from both in and outside of my constituency. I simply wish to take this advantage and opportun ity to draw attention to the inaccuracy of the Free Press from which my honou rable friend , the Leader of the Opposition, gets his information about Man itoba Hydro. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. STEVE !='ATRICK: Mr . Speaker, I have a question for the Honou rable Minister of Urban Affairs.

Can the Min ister indicate to the House if he has received or when will he receive the Bellan Report into the Land Inquir y Commission? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Finan ce. HONOURABLE SAUL A. MILLER (Seven Oaks): I haven't received it as I think I indicated about a week ago. As soon as 1 receive it, it will be made available. I am not sure, I bel ieve it is sometime in Jun e that it was indicated it might be available. MR. PATRICK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

Can the Min ister indicate to the House if the Bellan Inquiry Commission is working under a certain budget or if they have no budget, and can he also indicate what is the total staff? MR. MILLER: Well, as far as staff is concerned , I will have to take that as notice. I don't know. As far as a budget, yes there is a gener al budget, but depending on the length oftime it takes, of course, that may be more or less. I haven't got the figure available. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. BOB BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I direct my question to the Min ister of Ind ustry and Commer ce and would ask the Min ister if he could inform the House whether the position of director of Projects Development Branch in his department was bulletined for in the normal man ner? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. MR. EVANS: Well, I will have to inquire, Mr. Speaker. I will look into the matter. MR. BANMAN: I wonder if the Minster could also check to see if there was any competition allowed for that position. 2068

Tuesday, April 19 , 19 77 MR. EVANS: If it was bulletined in the normal manner, there would be a normal civil service competition. As I indicated last night during your Estimates, Mr. Speaker, a numb er of the positions in the department are filled by contract and that is by definite policy because of the nature oft he work involved and we find that that is a very useful technique for some of the positions in the department. I am not aware of this particu lar one that the member is referring to so I will look into it. MR.

BAN MAN: I would like the Minister to confirm that this appointment was made by Order-In Council on April 13 th. MR. EVANS: Again, I will have to check to ensure that we are talking about the same position. But if the honourable mem ber is referring to a position that was approved by OC, this is because it was a senior officer position and all senior officer positions have to be approved by OC. I believe that person was promoted within the department and has been a long-term employee of the department. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Brandon West. MR. EDWARD McGILL: Mr .

Speaker, my question is for the Honour able the Min ister of Continuing Education with respect to his annou ncement of the appointment of a new head for the Youth Secretariat. Could he tell the House if that position was bulletined in the normal manner ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Continuing Education. HONOURABLE BEN HANUSCHAK (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, the incumbent of this position had been serving as an acting-d irector of Youth Secretariat for the past year. Prior to that, he was the assistant director of the branch and so this was merely a promotion in the normal course of events. MR. McGILL: Mr.

Speaker, to the same Minister. Was a civil service exam ination and competition held for the position? MR. HANUSCHAK: I will check, Mr . Speaker. MR. Me GILL: Mr. Speaker , I wonder if the Min ister would confirm that this appointment was made by Order-I n-Council No.41 2 of the 13 th of April, 19 77. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr . Speaker, if the honourable memb er checked the records of the Privy Counci l, if that is the number that the Order-I n-Council bears, then I have no arg ument with it.

So therefore I can neither confirm nor deny that is the number of the appointment and the appointment was at the senior officer level and hence it required Cabine t approval. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for St. Matthews. MR. WALLY JOHANNSON: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Education. Is the Min ister prepared to investigate the distribution of hard-core pornography, pardon me, propaganda, and the political indoctrination activities being carried on by an organ ization called Junior Achievement within the Winn ipeg schools since the early 19 60s? MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

The Honou rable Minister of Education. HONOURABLE IAN TURNBULL (Osborne): Mr . Speaker, I believe that teachers in schools and the people responsible for the administration of schools are adult enough to know what kinds of programs and what kinds of information they want to see dissem inated in the schools. I believe that Junior Achievement, sponsored by various business organ izations, is one form of such propaganda and indeed there may be other kinds of information or propaganda that is disseminated in schools in various forms.

I believe that students being exposed to this kind of information are likely on graduation better able to make decisions with regard to their economic well-being or their political electoral decisions at election time. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Fort Rouge. MR. LLOYD AXWORTHY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Education.

I wonder if the Minister can explain to the House what was the basis for his deciding to release a position paper concern ing the teaching of French language schools prior to a meeting with parents and organizations that were involved in the subject and wanted to ask for some revision or reassessment of that program? Can he tell us the reason for the release prior to that meeting? MR. TURNBULL: Mr .

Speaker, the Member for Fort Rouge appears to be confused between the program which is under way in various schools and is the responsibil ity of schools in which the Department of Education will not intercede , and the position paper that the Department of Education, under my auspices, issued last week.

The position paper is one that I have been asked for by representatives of the French commun ity for some months and it was my understanding that this paper wou ld be the basis for a meeting that was scheduled between representatives of the various Francop hone groups in Man itoba, the Prem ier, the Minister of Health' myself and some other representatives of the govern ment. The paper was released because I had been asked to release it by the various groups who, once they got it, felt they didn't want to discuss it. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr . Speaker, to the same Min ister.

Can he indicatewhether he was in contactor in any consu ltation with those organizations prior to the release to determine whether they felt that the position paper should be released at that time, or did they prefer to have it discussed or examined during the meetings that were scheduled between themselves and the Premier and the Minister of Health? 2069

Tuesday, April 19 , 19 77 MR. TURNBULL: Mr . Speaker, the position paper is no more rea lly thbn a reiteration of what is already the case. The position paper, I think, could quite easily be interpreted as a status quo document, and therefore it did not seem particularly necessary as it was airestatement, as much as it was an elaboration of existing policy to discussJt with the various groups '4ho were to be represented at the meeting that was to be held last Friday. MR. AXWORTHY: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

Can the Minister then indicate if they have had any discussion or communication with those organizations to determine whether a new meeting will be rescheduled to discuss this position paper and any other matters relating to the teaching of French language in the schools. MR. TURNBULL: Mr . Speaker, since I became Minister last September 22nd, I have met with representatives of these various organizations on several occasions and I would expect that at their request I would be willing to meet with them in my office or the Office of the Premier at any time.

Inde ed a good part of my working day is taken up with meetings with various groups interested in this and a variety of other programs related to education. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Fort Rouge, final supplement. MR. AXWORTHY: Thank you, Mr . Speaker.

Then I would ju st ask the Minister, considering that there appears to be a misunderstanding about the release of the position paper and the ir.tention of the government in so releasing it, will the Minister make any effort to communi cate with those groups that are concerned about the matter and invite them to meet with him to discuss it rather than just simply leaving it as an open invitation? · MR. TURNBULL: Mr . Speaker, I am quite happy to meet with representatives of this group at any �ime they wish. I believe, though, the initiative is theirs.

The meeting was established as a res ult of a demonstration that they organized. Between the time of the demonstration and the time of the scheduled meeting last Friday, I did meet with some of these representatives. I believe that as they have cance lled the meeting without any notice formally to me, that the initiative for future meetings is in their hands. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Honourable the First Minister.

Could the First Minister advise the House whether, now being seized of the information about Executive Assistants and movies or slide projections in schools, whether he will permit that policy to continue or not? MR. SCHREYER: Mr .

Speaker, I'm prepared to review the matter in its global context and by that I mean that if it is indeed the case, which I believe it to be, that not only I but other honourable gentlemen, including honourable gentlemen opposite do receive and accept from time to time, invitations to address school groups, then any Minister is free to do likewise, and any Minister is free to do likewise using slides and it follows then by delegation he is free to do so using slides and having someone stand in as his representative. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, on the point that was raised by the First Minister.

Does the First Minister not distinguish between an Executive Assistant saying that he will show the slides and that the Minister may also come along , and the Minister taking the initiative. Does the First Minister approve of paid political representatives of his government taking the initiative to go in and to politicize school children in Manitoba? MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, it seems to me that it is a principle of delega tion that is involved ht.. re.

If an honourable gentleman of this Chamber, be he a Minister of the Crown or not, is in a position to accept an invitation or to carry out an undertaking to address a school class, then whether it is done by that person or someone directly delegated by him or her, I re ally do not see a great distinction to be drawn. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, to clear the point which perhaps escapes the First Minister, would he not agree that these words are self-explana tory, "If you would prefer Mr. Uruski, your MLA, has indicated that he would also be delighted to make the presentation." Who is delegating to whom, Mr. Speaker?

MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, not to be unkind, I would say to my honourable friend that I really believe that he well understands that anything that an Executive Assistant writes is by delegation of his emp loying Minister. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for Lakeside. MR. HARRY J. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, would the First Minister also concur that Opposition Member s do not have the use of government stationery, nor do they work from government paid-for offices, nor do they send it out with government postage. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able First Minister. MR.

SCHREYER: The Honour able Mem ber for Lakeside having asked the question, I would simply answer by pointing out that he and all other members of this are in receipt of Legislative Assembly stationery. They do have caucus stenographic assistance, and I believe since this government has been in office, there has been a significant increase in the availability of caucus research funds to cover that kind of thing and more. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Matthews. 2070

Tuesday, April 19 , 19 77 MR. JOHANNSON: Yes, Mr . Speaker, I have another question for the Min ister of Education. Does the Min ister of Education approve of the distribution of pro apartheid literature by a Conservative Member of Parl iament in the high schools of this province? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Education. MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Speaker, the distribution of racist literature by Conservative Party Member s I regard as a matter of their conscience. I would not distribute such literature to children under my care and I certa inly would not tolerate it if I was a parent of such children.

However, Mr. Speaker, 1 think we have to recognize that if our children are to graduate from the schools with some understanding of the world community, that perhaps it is useful to read racist literature from South Africa, distributed by Mr .

Epp, the Member of Parlia ment representing the Conservative Party, and that literature read in conj unction with literatu re which attempts to give a more balanc ed view of what is going on in South Africa or other parts of the world with relationship to various problems is useful for children in learn ing about the world and in learn ing how to make judgm ents about international situations and other matters. A MEMBER: Hear, hear. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Leader of the Opposition. MR. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, in light of the Minister of Educ ation's response, could he advise the House if he has authorized through his department, his own political party to engage in other propaganda activities in the schools of Manitoba of which we're not aware? MR. SPEAKER: The Min ister for Education. MR. TURNBULL: Mr.

Speaker, I have not authorized the department to distribute political literature, that I think could be called that, nor have I authorized them to distribute racist literature from South Africa, nor have I asked them to distribute slides of the NDP or the PCP or the Liberal Party or the Social Credit Party for that matter.

However, I think that a mix of information in the classroom, when you're dealing with students who are reaching the age of maturity, is a useful teaching technique and I would not, Sir, as is implied by the Leader of the Opposition, want to engage in censorship of material that is distributed in the school if that material is legally acceptable in the courts. MR. LYON: Is the Minister of Education then saying, Sir, that he condones the practice of his colleague, the Min ister of Municipal Affairs, in having his Executive Assistant show NDP propaganda films in the schools of Manitoba? MR. TURNBULL: Mr .

Speaker, I bel ieve that the question of delegation is a matter for individual �in isters to deal with. I believe that whether the Leader of the Opposition speaks in schools in Fort Garry is a matter for the school trustees there and the school princ ipals and teachers there to agree to. I happen to find it somewhat reprehensible that he is in the schools there talking to students about the particular propaganda that his party would like to dissemina te. MF:. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Radisson. MR. SHAFRANSKY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question to the First Minister.

In view of the questions put forth by the Leader of the Official Opposition with regard to the film strips produced by the NDP caucus, would he extend an invitation to the Leader of the Opposition to attend the Radisson nominating meeting at which the First Min ister is going to be a guest speaker and also we will have those slides so he can have the first opportunity to see how a democratic process operates. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Agriculture. HONOURABLE SAMUEL USKIW (Lac du Bonnet): Mr .

Speaker, some days ago, memb ers of the opposition had posed a number of questions with respect to the use an allegedly new chem ical for the control Dutch elm disease.

I simply want to advise members that we have done some research into the subject matter and would like to advise all people to be, again, extremely cautious in the use of any chemic al and in particular as to their expectations of the results in that the information we have is that there is nothing new on the market. it is basical ly a formu lation of a similar chem ical that has been used for a long period of time and there are no guarantees as to the success of the eradication of Dutch elm disease or its control through the use of either chem ical on the market.

So one has to use these chem icals with a great degree of caution. it is also pointed out that the costs range from $80 for an annual application to up to $300 for an application involving a bi-annual application. We are continuing to do tests in the Selkir k area, in a number or areas of the province, and hope to : lVe some additional information some time in the future. But there is no conclusive evidence that �ny chem ical that is now available will eradicate the disease and therefore the consuming public should act accordingly. Mr.

Speaker, I also want to respond to a numb er of questions put to me by the Member for Lakes ide, not only questions but ind eed, Mr. Speaker, the memb er took advantage of the House in issuing a statement to the effect that someone was losing money whether it's the taxpayer or the pork producers through the contract with Japan for the sale of Manitoba hogs, over the last three or four years. And he did so on receipt of the Annual Report of the Man itoba Hog Producers Mar keting 2071

Tuesday, Apri1 19 , 19 77 Board which was distributed at that time. Without spending too much time in analyzing that report, he made those statements, Mr . Speaker, which is quite typical of my honourable friend, the Member for Lakeside.

I would like to advise him that if he looks at that report again he will find that the deficit on the Dressed Pork Division has nothing to do with the Ja panese pork contract whatever, but rather another arrangement where the Hog Mar keting Board has involved itself in custom slaug htering and the sale of pork cuts to places like California, the Uni ted Kingdom , Vancouver, New York and Japan, but above and beyond the contract referred to.

So that accounts for that particular deficit. ! am advised by the Manager of the Marketing Board today that they are realizing a higher price for rork exported to Japan at this point in time pursuant to the formula contract entered into three years ago, higher than the domestic price here in Man itoba. So I simply want to correct the Memb er for Lakeside and suggest to him that it is not always possible to mislead the people of Man itoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Lakes ide. MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I thank the Honour able Minister for that response to a belated question.

My supplementary question to the Minister is would he not concur with me that it would be easier for the Member for Lakeside, and indeed others, if the reports stated the facts and one wouldn't have to guess at what arrangements and what prices pork is being sold. My second supplement ary question is, yes, now that pork prices are low, an average low for the last three or four years of some 48 cents, was that in fact the case when pork prices were retailing at 70 cents here in Man itoba? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister for Agricultur e. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, that was the precise nature of that contract and that was to allow, by way of formula, for averaging of prices so that when prices are low here they may be higher in the export field, or vice versa. In the long term. it's a stabilizing effect that is sought after by the producers. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Morris. MR. WARNER H. JORGENSON: I'd like to direct a question to the Ministero f Agriculture and ask him would he not concur that the report of the Hog Marke ting Board is incomplete unless it contains the details of all the pork that is sold, not just isolated instances? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister. MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I draw attention to the fact that the Hog Marke ting Board has an obligation, by contract, as to confidentiality of their particular arrangement for very obvious reasons; the reasons that they are in the business of competing with other ju risdictions, both at the producer level and at the processing level, and at the buying level. So in essence that kind of question is a lot of nonsense. Secondly, Mr.

Speaker, the Member for Morris knows full well that pork is not purchased at any given price per day by all buyers of pork in Man itoba or anywhere, but there may be ten different prices on a given day which are averaged out for the benefit of producers. So that in essence there is a difference in the prices that Canada Packers pays on the same day within any purchase on that day, and also differences between Canada Packers and Swifts and Burns and so on. So that is nothing different, Mr. Speaker. They all operate and function the same way. MR. JORGENSON: lt just occurs to me, Mr.

Speaker' that the details of all pork sales could well be included in the ... MR. SPEAKER: Question, please. MR. JORGENSON: I'd like to direct my question to the Minister of Mines, Resources and Environmental Management and ask him if he now has the answer to the question that I posed last Tuesday. I'll refresh his memory on that question. When was the last time that officials of his department, or whatever department does the investigation, conducted mercury tests on fish coming into the province of Man itoba? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister for Mines. MR.

GREEN: I thank the honourable member for reminding me of the question. I can tell him that my procedure is that the department gets it today and usually I have a response back earl ier, so I'll try and trace down where the response is. I thank the honourable member for bringing it to my attention. I didn't see a response as of yesterday. There was a question that the Memb er for Lakeside asked yesterday ofthe Min ister for Renewable Resources, but I'll deal with him personal ly since he has left the House. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: Sorry, time's up. Orders of the Day. The Honourable Min ister of Mines.

BUSI NE SS OF THE HO USE MR. SPEAKER: Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. LYON: Could the House Leader advise what committee, if any, will be sitting on Thursday 2072

Tuesday, April 19 , 19 77 next? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker' I don't expect that there will be a comm ittee meeting on Thursday but I expect that on Tuesday we will be going into Public Accounts, Tuesday at ten in the morning and then, I expect, we'll be meeting every Tuesday and Thursday although that's not a definite commit ment. I am not able to have a return of the Hydro committee because of the commitments of the Chai rman but we have other committees to deal with and I'll try to line them up now as quickly as I can. MR.

LYON: I take it the House Leader will advise us as soon as convenient as to when the Public Uti lities Committee will reconvene discussing Manitoba Hydr o. MR. GREEN: I can tell my honourable friend that it might be some time and that we have given considerable time to Hydro, and that we will be dealing with some of the other matters that come before the committee first. MR. LYON: For clar ification again, Mr. Speaker. Can the Honour able the House Leader advise us what the procedure will be on Fr iday with respect to the Bu dget Speech. When will it be delivered? MR. GREEN: Mr .

Speaker, I discussed this with the Minister of Finance and, given my understanding of the rules, since the Budget takes precedence we can annou nce at 2:30 in the afternoon that the Budget Speech will be delivered. ADJOUR NED DE BATES - SECOND RE ADI NGS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I wish now to proceed with the adjourned debates on second reading of the bills in the order in which they appear on the Order Paper. MR. SPEAKER: Adj ourned debates. Bill No. 5, the Honour able Memb er for Birtle-Russell. MR. HARRY E. GRAHAM: Stan d. MR.

SPEAKER: Bill No. 14, the Honour able Member for Wolseley. MR. WILSON: Stan d. MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 16 , the Honour able Member for Gladstone. MR. JAMES R. FERGUSON: Stand. BILL (NO. 22) -

AN ACT TO AMEND THE PERSONAL PROPE RTY SECUR ITY ACT AND CE RTAIN OTHER ACTS REL ATING TO PERSONAL PROPERT Y MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 22, the Honour able Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr . Speaker, on this particular bill, I provide an apology to the Attorney Gener al, who I expect would be anxious to get this legislation through, but it was a bill that I felt because of its detail, required some very careful attention. I apologize if it was an inconvenience. But not being trained in the matters of the specific law, it took a while to digest fully what might be the case.

I should say that my interest was particularly aroused because of my own concern about the issue of filing of measures relating to the Land Titles Office on personal properties, and the kinds of disclosures and availabil ity of information that there is conce rning who holds land, who holds collateral on land and so forth, and I wanted to see if there is anything in this bill that would be pertinent to that concern which I think ultimately has to be done to take a basic re-exami nation of the whole system of filing of land titles and who has interest in the property and its titles. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR.

AXWORTHY: But I would say that I will not pursue that matter, Mr. Speaker, at this time because it is not of germane interest to this bill. I wanted to see if any of the sections are related to the kind of entries that had to be filed with the Land Titles Office, if it would pertain to that question of the disclosure of who held interest in properties, and how far back they could be traced.

I would only ask the Min ister, perhaps he might think about that particular issue and relate it to us, although it is only a partial inclusion in this bill, that there is still I think a necessity to amend our reporting systems so that we'll have a much clearer defin ition as to the ownership and retention of property and therefore be able to make a much clearer ju dgment as to whose interests are involved. On the bill itself, Mr.

Speaker, I will only say that I, in talking with those who are in the legal profession and concerned about such matters, their primary comment is that the bill is just simply overdue and it could have been brought forward earl ier. But I assume no criticism because I realized that these things take priority. There are a couple of matters though that the Minister might want to take a look at. One is that there appears to be an omission in this particular set of amend ments that relate to a

section of the bill that talks about the transfer of collateral by a debtor, and that is, a problem arises when a debtor transfers and doesn't notify the transferee, it means that the third party - that a signature that must be required by that transferee - is not notified and the third party then really has a problem, because then they are fo rced into a position where they almost have to persuade or cajole the transferee to recognize their interest in the property. I think it's something that is not covered in these amend ments according to the assessments that I received on it. 2073

Tuesday, April 19 , 19 77 The other issue that has caused some small concern , but probably can be dealt with in Committee, is the issue of apparent hiatus between the passage of Bill 29 and April 1s t deadline that are set to it. I think that has been brought to the Minister's attention. lt may in fact be corrected in Committee when we can take a look at the starting dates of these bills and to bring it into line with the kind of notification that must be filed in the offices. So, Mr.

Speaker, 1 have no more comments than that to say that I was interested in the bill and had taken note of some of the aspects of it in relation to the procedures in the Land Titles Office, and may have an opportunity to say something further about that when we get into a debate in the Farm Allowance Bill. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Attorney-General shall be closing debate. The Attorney General. HONOURABLE HOWARD PAWLEY (Selkirk): Mr . Speaker, I don't think that much comment is required from me at this stage in connection with th!s bill.

I t�in� it's more prod�ctive t��t we si� ply process the bill on its way to Committee, proceed w1th subm1ss1ons and deal w1th spec1f1c questions in detail at that stage. QUESTION put, MOTION carried. MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 28, the Honour able Member for Rhineland. MR. ARNOLD BROWN: Stan d, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 33, the Honour able Member for Minnedosa. MR. DAVID BLAKE: Stan d. MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 39, the Honou rable Memb er for Gladstone. MR. FERGUSON: Stand, Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 44, the Honour able Memb er for Minnedosa. MR. BLAKE: Stand. BI LL (NO. 54) -

AN ACT TO AMEND THE INTOXICATED PERSONS DETENTION ACT MR. SPEAKER: Bil l No. 54, the Honour able Memb er for La Verend rye. MR. BANMAN: Mr . Speaker, I held that bill for the Honour able Member for Swan River. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Swan River. MR. JAMES H. BIL TON: Mr . Speaker, I've read the current statute to which these amend ments are intended to update, and we on this side feel that anything that has to be done, those affected by this alcoholic disease, will find no objection on this side of the House. In the begin ning, Mr.

Speaker, in dealing with these amend ments to The Int oxicated Persons Detention Act, I question a peace officer having the authority to take a person into custody without charge' because he is intoxicated. That struck me as something a little unusual. I would ask the Minister to take into consideration the removal of that sort of stigma. I would suggest to the Minister' if I may, Mr. Speaker, that the term that should be used is "protective custody" for the purpose of this Act. Without any further ado, Mr .

Speaker, we would be very pleased to let this matter go to Committee, but again , I would appeal to the Minister to take this matter under consideration, to remove what I feel is somewhat a stigma. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister for Co rrections shall be closing debate. The Honour able Minister. MR. BOYCE: Mr. Speaker, the Member for Swan River has raised a good point and perhaps we could consider this at Committee. QUESTION put, MOTION carried. MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 56, the Hono urable Leader of the Opposition. MR. LYON: Stand . BILL (NO. 57) -

AN ACT TO AMEND THE MANITOBA TELEPHONE ACT MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 57, the Honour able Mem ber for Fort Garry. The Honou rable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr . Speaker, if the member has a stand, I wonder if I could have leave of the House to speak to it, as I may not be here . . . MR. SPEAKER: Which bill? MR. AXWORTHY: Bill No. 57, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Very well. The Honour able Mem ber for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I appreciate the opportunity to speak.

I wanted to make some comments on this bill because I think it's an important one and I'm not sure if in the next day or two I'll be available in the House to talk to it, so I thought that I would like to make a contribution at this time. I do so for two reasons, Mr. Speaker. One goes back to the debate that we initiated with the 2074

Tuesday, April 19, 19 77 Min ister during his Estimates concern ing the activity and role of the Man itoba Telephone System and the real lack of any accountab ility for much of what it does. And I think that that is an issue that 1 want to come back to and examine with some depth because I think it certainly is evident in this bill that once again that the ability of the public regulatory authority, the Public Uti lities Board is being by-passed in large part. But let me say first that I think one specific provision of this bill, Mr. Speaker, is illegal to the point where it is perhaps even unconstitutional . And I guess it would be really the basic principle that's embod ied under

Section 43 which I've heard referred to in some circles as the snitch portion of the bill, mean ing that the government is now requiring suppliers of eql!ipment to tell, inform if you like, about all the equipment that they sell and then must submit that kind of information to government. Mr. Speaker, that comes very close to the old adage of Big Brothers that we always have to be in some guard against. The government is now requiring any supplier or retailer - and I presume, Mr.

Speaker, that that would include even people out of province who sell such matters or supply them through wholesale to a retail outlet - to so inform on any sale that they make in any of the electronic equipment that can be connected on the Man itoba Telephone System line. - (I nterjecti on) - MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Co-operatives. MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Speaker, how else cou Id the Man itoba Telephone System or any other common carrier be able to keep a central registry and prevent damage to the carrier itself? MR. AXWORTHY: Mr . Speaker, I think the Ministerd oesn't see the point I am making.

My question is, granted that there may be some concern on the part of the Manitoba Tele phone System that there are uses being made of its lines they object to and even granted that there may be some loss of revenue per se, to balance those concerns which are organ izational concerns, maintenance concerns, perhaps even some small revenue concerns against what I bel ieve is a serious infringement again on the abi lity of individuals to operate with a fair degree of private activity and not once again be told what they must do and have another list of records, another list of central index of who is doing what contained in some filing cabinet or some locked up registry, that is the issue.

We are now saying that the Minister in this whole bill, and that comes back to the central principle that ur.je rlies much of the activity of the Man itoba Telephone System and Man itoba Hydro and a number of so-called public agencies, that they consistently and constantly these days put their own peculiar convenience and interests against what I think are some basic principles about how we should conduct government in this day and age and the degree to whictl government compels and requires people to subm it to those matters of convenience.

When it reaches a stage that we are now again undertak ing this kind of almost mass identification in every retail outlet, supplier, wholesaler, distributer, requiring them to do so- and I presume, Mr . Speaker, and it hasn't been spelled out, but there is no penalty attached in this bill so I assume that the penalty would come under The Summ ary Convictions Act which means that someone might be liable up to two years.

If someone disobeys this, someone doesn't obey it, I presume The Summa ry Convictions Act would apply and therefore someone may be liable or vulner able to very major penalty under the law.- (Int erjection)- Well, Mr. Speaker, the point still remains.

This principle of want ing one person to tell on another, as we keep continually carrying it into further extremes - we talked about the thing the other day with the Minister of Continuing Education, we now require, if you want a student aid loan, that we have rights as a government, they say, to take all the income tax forms and pile them up - (I nterject ion) - The consent is that the person doesn't get student aid if they don't sign the waiver. What kind of consent is that? That is a very interesting concept of consent.

In other words you don't get money, you will get no assistance unless you sign a waiver and the Min ister is trying to imply that is consent. Well, what a strange, strange logic. Strange logic goes on in the mind of the Minsiter of Continuing Education. You know, Mr. Speaker, -(I nterjec tions)- this gentleman will have -(l nterjec tions)- MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. AXWORTHY: ... occasion to raise the issue with this Min ister about the curious way that he requires consent to be gained during his Estimates debate.

If he wants to prepare his own position, we can forewarn him that he will be required to defend it in no uncertain terms. I am simply saying that if you look at the numb er of Acts that we passed in this House last year, The Workplace Safety Act and other Acts requiring inspectors to go into workplaces, buildings, to go in and take materials and documents. Mr.

Speaker, the Min ister of Mines and Resources seems to feel that this is a big joke to have someone to walk into a house at any time within 24 hours, at any time, walk in and seize documents without any prior notice, that that somehow is a funny thing to talk about. That really is hilarious, Mr. Speaker: The Minister has - of course we all know his strange sense of humour- ! suppose he gets delight out of that kind of intervention, of being able to walk into someone's place of business and taking the documents and records without any warn ing. That really gets the laugh line of the year, doesn't it, Mr.

Speaker? lt really is a great source of amusement, I am sure, to memb ers opposite that they have all these powers at their disposal to begin requiring private citizens to continually find their own freedoms limited in a variety of ways simply for the convenience of some civil servant of some department or agency who feels that this will help their operation, that 2075

Tuesday, April 19 , 19 77 this will help them provide for - that is the kind of issue that we are raising, Mr. Speaker. - (I nterjecti on)- Yes, Mr. Speaker, I would be glad to. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Mines. MR. GREEN: Before, in 19 55 I was the Director of the B'nai B'rith Camp. I was instructed by my board of directors to say that anybody who wished to send their child to camp at a subsidized fee would be required to verify their income by the submission of their income tax return.

Do you think that the B'nai B'rith Camp board of directors, a commun ity group of people such as the honourable memb er says he is always trying to facilitate, were asking something unfair of a person asking for a subsidy for their children going to a summer camp? MR. AXWORHTY: To beg in with, Mr .

Speaker, what a subm ission to B'nai B'rith camp in 19 54 has to do with the discussion of a Manitoba Telephone System bill escapes me, but if the Minister is prepared to sit in his seat, I am prepared to give him an answer. - (I nterjection) - I know that the Min ister doesn't want an answer anyway because he is simply there to make his point and then he runs. You know it is the classic tactic of the Min ister of Mines and Resources hit-and-run because that is the tactic that he wants to apply. So if he doesn't want an answer, fine, he can go into whatever business he has.

He asked the question; I am prepared to give him an answer. If he doesn't want an answer, that is fine, Mr. Speaker. -(I nterjecti on)- You know I am prepared to speak to Ministers when they are in their seat, when they are prepared to get back to debate, whenever it is possible to do it. But the fact of the matter is that almost always organ izations and groups in many cases are prepared to put a deg ree in trust that when someone puts a declaration of what their income is, that they are prepared to assume that that is an honest declaration.

That is the basic problem with this government, it has no trust in people. lt ju st simply has no ability and no interest to trust what is going on. Going back to the smug Min ister of Continuing Educ ation, there are already very adequate procedures of audit and review that test out when those may be broken and to determ ine what the incidence is instead of continually multiplying the numb er of people who are going to be exam ining, surveying, collecting information on all kinds of private activities that people in this province are engaged in.

This government seems to have a total blindne ss, an inabil ity to understand that princi ple, that there is and must be maintained continually a defence against invasion of privacy in this province. They have no understanding of that at all, Mr. Speaker. lt becomes clear in piece after piece of legislation, in statement after statement of the Minister, that they simply have forgotten. lt is a kind of myopia that is acquired after being too long in government and that, Mr.

Speaker, is indicated day after day in this House, that they have lost the sensitivity and capacity to understand that there is a need to be solicitous about one's questions of privacy in this society. Mr. Speaker, to require this is again one more exam ple of how ... treated with some - Well, they say the public service people want it; the Man itoba Telephone System, it would make things easier for them . Let's go ahead and put it in. Let's not bother checking this out. That I think relates, Mr .

Speaker, to the general problem with this bill, that again it is a bill that first, I would suggest, has been designed purely for the convenience of the Manitoba Telephone System not been well thought I would suggest, is not a bill that has gone through the kind of policy review and assessment that the Department of Telecom munications was set up to do.

I would suggest to the Minister, and I would welcome his answer, that the Department of Telecommun ications has had nothing to do with this bill, that as a policy-mak ing body set up, granted a white paper mandate, that again the government is ignoring that department because they don't agree with this kind of thing either and they find that kind of action taki ng place in this area has a high deg ree of reprehensibility about it. I suggest, Mr.

Speaker, that again it is a question of which tail is wagging which dog and one more Min ister now succumbs to the ever-present cajol ing and persuasion of his officials to say, "This is the way things should be," as opposed to operating in a much more well-defined Ministerial role, and that is providing the kind of judgment that elected persons should apply against the civil servant which is so often immune to that kind of sensitivity we are talking about as proclaimed in

Section 43. But beyond that, Mr. Speaker, there is another factor, that this bill gives the Man itoba Telephone System complete control over any kind of connection wh atsoever, not just the little devices that the chairman was so concerned about, but any device, any kind of connecting device, data processing, cable connection, any kind of linkage into that system is now totally under the control of the Manitoba Telephone System. Now the question is who is controlling the Manitoba Telephone System in terms of the decisions th�y make on any of those linkages?

Now the only requirement for the MTS to go before the Public Util ities Board is on telephone matters, where there is a so-called non-competitive provision, but on the other matters which are defined in an abstract way as being in the area of competitive price setting, they are not required to go, and that includes things like linkages for data processing and cab le systems and all the rest of it. 2076

Tuesday, April 19 , 19 77 So what we are saying, Mr . Speaker, is that in this bill, that many of the areas which we are now giving Man itoba Telephone System complete command over are in fact not subject to the review and open exami nation through public hearings of the Public Uti lities Board. I think it should be spelled out much more explicitly by the Minister, first within the whole range of connections and linkages that can be establ ished under this bill, which ones are in fact regulated under that open regulatory procedure, and which ones simply stay unaccountable.

I think that becomes a very important principle in this bill because it does mean that in many of the critical areas, and particularly as society develops much more into that electronic network system which theorists and so on talk about and which I think when the previous Minister responsible for Telecommunic ations issued his white paper talked about, what was it, the electron ic city, or whatever phraseology was used, depicting a kind of magical world all plugged into the cable, all fixed into this wide system of telephone cable linkages. Well, if that prediction has any truth to it, then I would suggest, Mr.

Speaker, that we are giving an immense amount of power to the Man itoba Telephone System which is not covered under the regulatory body which was originally set up to ensure that when it comes to setting rates and all the other kinds of questions related to it, that there is the opportunity for some form of open hearing, for some form of adversary process, for some form of representation by different groups who are interested.

What we are really say ing is we are really writing a blank cheque, that if the commun ications technology continues to develop with the kind of speed and rapidity that it has, expanding into a vast number of areas, providing a much more complicated information network, many of which we couldn't even have predicted ourselves, but happenin g with such a degree of rapidity and speed that it staggers one's own imag ination and provides for a serious time lag in legislation to keep up with it.

Certainly the kind of questions posed in the sem inar in this province held here last Saturday concern ing the use of computers in the invasions of privacy related to that particular electronic hookup, and the data processing linkages that go along with it, raised a number of important issues which deal directly with the kind of issues related to in this bill, the difference being that there there was warn ings saying, "Be careful, there is an immense amount of power, an immense amount of control contained within this new technology." The warning that came very clearly from that seminar was you must ensure that there is a maximum amount of protection and accountability provided.

And here we are, one week later, dealing with a bill which in effect provides almost no protection and accountability at all in those areas that were being talked about. Mr.

Speaker, that really is a paradox and itdoes sugge st that the bill is not a good bill at all and that the problem, and other mem bers may be able to speak specifically to the problem of the hookup devices and so on that the Manitoba Telephone System came down with, their slide show and so on to present, but the fact of the matter is that we are enga ging in a very serious time lag here with not understand ing the tremendous importance and consequence of new information technologies and really passing over a great deal of power which is highly removed from scrutiny to the Man itoba Telephone System in this very sensitive and important area.

And that, Mr.

Speaker, is as much the import of this bill as the question of talking about someone going to Radio Shack and buying an extension telephone that plugs in and the Man itoba Telephone System says, "We don't like doing that." No question, that probably is a problem from there point of view, but what they haven't looked at is the other side oft he problem, the other side of it which comes down to what is the role of government in this area in relation to the rights of individuals and what is the kind of accountab ility that you hold over large Crown corporations in the exercise of a very important and growing field of activity in this society?

Those are the unanswered questions which were not dealt with at all in the Minister's introduction to the bill and seemed to be of little concern so far because, when we discussed it in his Estimates, again there was a lack of interest almost in that kir.d of question.

And 1 suggest one reason is that in part the direction set forward, again in the White Paper that I Dferred to; which I still think is a legitimate and good document, did raise those questions and somehow again, maybe because of longevity and that kind of inertia one begins to acquire when one has been too long sitting on government benches, that they have not bothered dealing with an issue that they themselves raised two or three years ago and passed by.

And they set up a Department of Telecommun ications specifically desig ned to deal with issues like this, to make the policy advice, and then beg in bypassing it. When really important issues come up, then that department that was set up for purposes .... So let's get rid of the department if we are not going to use it, like many other kinds of agencies that have been set up, I think more for public relations purposes than for real intent, then we should get rid of it.

If we want to save money, let's get rid of those agencies which if given a legitimate job to do and did it, would be important additions to the governmental network of this province, but simply occupying an office and twiddling their thumbs and being asked to do peripheral work, means that we shouldn't be spending the money on them. And that is what the Department of Telecommun ications has been put into. That is the kind of position it now occupies in these kinds of policy matters. 2077

Tuesday, April 19 , 19 77 Communications policy is not being made by the department, it is being made by the Manitoba Telephone System and it comes down to the same issue that we have raised with Man itoba Hydro. Energy policy should not be made by the Crown corporation which is the production delivery agency, it should be made by a department which is able to look at a much wider set of factors and bring a much different set of considerations to bear. So we have seen the problem in energy, we are seeing now the same kind of problem in the question of commun ications.

Who is making decisions, who is making policy? So, Mr. Speaker, those are the kinds of concerns that we have about this bill and they are serious concerns because it does really relate to the kind of role the government is playing, and the kind of power and control that they conventional ly operate.

We think that if a Minister wants to pursue his concern about protecting against the damages and costs related to the conne cting links of those Radio Shack telephones that they seem to be so concerned about, then he should equally address a much more deep and important ingredient to this whole issue, , and that is what kind of protections are we using. I think certain ly he should find a better way of dealing with it than asking suppliers and retailers to start snitching on their neighbour s. MR. SPEAKER: The motion will remain in the name of the Honour able Memb er for Fort Garry. The Honou rable House Leader.

MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honour able the Minister of Tourism and Recreation that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into Comm ittee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented. BUSINE SS OF THE HOUSE MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Mines. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I would just like to make an announcement with regard to the Proceed ings of the House. I bel ieve it would be convenient to have a meeting of Private Bills Comm ittee on Thursday at 10 o'clock.

There are some bills before the comm ittee and as well there is a consideration of a motion, ift he comm ittee chooses to pass it, to extend time, so perhaps that could be at 11 o'clock rather than at 10 o'clock so that members would not have to be here an hour earlier. I think that 11 o'clock would be sufficient time to consider the two bills. Eleven o'clock on Thursday, Private Bills Committee. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Fort Rouge on the procedure. MR. AXWORTHY: Yes, Mr .

Speaker, I have a question for the House Leader conce rning his annou ncement that we wou Id ho Id a meeting of the Commit tee on Private Membe rs' B i lis. What does that indicate in terms of those Private Memb ers' Bills which are still on the Order Paper, that is would he be scheduling other members on that, or ... MR. GREEN: Those bills won't be affected. lt's just that we have an open Thursday and I thought it would be convenient to hold the meeting. There are some things that have to be done in Private Bills Comm ittee, including the extension of time, so I say at 11 o'clock.

That won't affect the bills that are now on the Order Paper unless some of them move further today, in which case we want the people who are sponsoring or dealing with those bills to appear on Thursday at 11 o'clock. I believe 11 o'clock would be sufficient time. lt gives the mem bers an extra hour. QUESTION put, MOTION carried and the House resolved itself into a Comm ittee of Supply with the Honour able Member for Log an in the Chair for Conti nuing Education and the Honourable Member for St. Vital in the Chair for In dustry and Comm erce. 2078

THE LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBL Y of MAN ITOBA Tuesday, April 19 , 19 77 CONCURRE NT COMMITTEES OF SU PPLY ESTI MATES - IND USTRY AND COMMERCE MR. CHAIRMAN, Mr. D. James Walding (St. Vital): We have a quorum gentle men, the Committee will come to order. I would direct the attention of honourable memb ers to Page 40 in their Estimates Book, the Department of Ind ustry and Commerce. Resolution 77 Man itoba Housing and Renewal Corporation. (

a) General Programs. The Honourable Minister. MR. EVANS: Mr. Chair man , by way of introduction to these Estimates, I would like to take this opportunity to make a numb er of observations. I'd first of all like to point out how the activities of the Man itoba Housing and Renewal Corporation, how they have contributed towards the improvement of the housing situation in the Province of Man itoba.

Since the election of the present government in 19 69 the primary thrust of Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation's activity has been in the area of providing housing for those people least able to cope with their housing problems, our senior citizens, our poorer working people, and gener ally those in greatest need who cannot help themselves, including people such as poor single parent families. This activity has resulted in the development of in excess of 11 ,000 public housing units, including almost 2,000 units in 19 76 alone.

In fact, in recent years Manitoba has developed the highest number of public housing units per capita of any province in Canada. The magn itude of MH RC's accomplishments, under the present government, can best be appreciated when compared with the situation we found in 19 69. In existence since 19 67, the corporation had only managed to develop some 568 units, all in the City of Winn ipeg, and since that time, that is up until 19 69, since that time MHRC has developed some 7,41 2 units in Winn ipeg, including 2,731 fam ily units and 4,681 elderly persons units.

In place of the total vacuum of activity in rural Man itoba MH RC has developed some 3,733 units since 19 69, including 1, 942 fam ily units and 1, 791 elderly persons or senior citizen units. Taken all in all this represents a twentyfold increase over the social housing stock in place in 19 69. Had the previous admin istration contin ued in office to develop social housing at the rate that was then in existence, I would suggest, Mr. Chairman , we would be well into the 21 st Century to obtain the present stock, which is conservatively estimated as having a value of about a quarter of one billion dollars.

In 19 76 MHRC developed almost 2,0 00 housing units at a capital cost of about $53 million, and it is intended that in 19 77 MH RC will at least match that level of activity, if not exceed it. Sen ior citizen housing will, of course, continue to be a major priority. lt has of course always been a matter of concern to this governm ent, that for many of our elderly, after spending their lives building this province, are relegated in their later years to living in the discomfort and indignity of substandar d shelter.

I am sure that all mem bers of this House will agree, in view of the recent trag ic fires, that despite the high production of senior citizen units to date, we can by no means become complacent in this respect. In addition to the 6,000-plus subsid ized senior citizen units developed to date MHRC has also developed nearly 5,000 units of family housing, that is ten times the numb er of units in place in 19 69.

Moreover, not only have we been concerned to produce family units in numbers sufficient to make up for the lack of such units in place eight years ago, but to assure that they be sufficient in terms of the quality of life afforded their residents.

The thrust establ ished in the development of family public housing units prior to 19 69 emphasizes the objective of producing units as cheaply as possible, and therefore' in as high a concentration as possible, witness the fact that all ofthe 432 family public units that were developed before 19 69 were concentr ated in two areas in the City of Winn ipeg, Burrows Keewat in and Lord Selkir k Park. I submit, Mr. Chair man, this is the old style of so-called urban redevelopment where, unfortunately, you concentr ate too many people together in one relatively small area, and almost ghettoize such persons.

No thought was given to the tremendous social and human problems that resulted from such developments in other cities, and I would suggest that - as I indicated a minute ago- that there is a danger of providing, in the future at least, some form of ghettoized slums.

Since 19 69 it has been MHRC policy to avoid high concentrations of family public housing in any one development. lt is rare that any one site has been developed in excess of 50 family units, and for this reason and a host of other related special considerations that go into the planning and development of our units, we feel that we have gone a long way towards ridding public housing of the stigmas conventi onally attached . In effect, not only in terms of the overall production of units, but also, in terms of the livability of our developments MHRC is doubtless in the forefront of social housing activity.

The corporation's prog ress in this latter respect, perhaps best exemplifies the govern ment's stated comm itment, when it first took office, to improve the qual ity of life of all 2079

Tuesday, April 19 , 19 77 Man itobans. At the same time MHRC' s activity in n.Jral Manitoba should serve to demonstrate the strength of the stay-option policy enunc iated by this govern ment early in our administration. Besides the 3,700- plus units developed in rural and northern towns since 19 69, under the Public Housing Prog ram, 800 additional units have been provided to remote commun ities under the Rural and Native Housing Prog ram, to the extent that the provision of housing represents a significant contribution to the infrastructure of our rural economy. I would submit, Mr.

Chair man, that the activity of MHRC has been most central to the stay-option effort. Of the 4,500 subsidized units developed outside ofWin n.ipeg some 1, 500 have been put in place in northern Man itoba, including the non-subsid ized units developed in the north, MHRC is by far the leading housing developer in the regions. This fact is indicative of the role that govern ment must play in housing where the private sector does not find it advantageous to do so.

This necessity is recogn ized under the National Housi ng Act, and the public sector housing role is increasingly expanding in the south as well, both in Man itoba and in other provincial ju risdictions. Thus, according to CMHC data for 19 76, out of the total of 6,71 8 housing starts in the City of Winnipeg some 2,990, or 45 percent were publicly subsid ized directly or indirectly. However, if we exclude the number of single detached housing ,starts in which, to date, public sector assistance has been minimal, and look at the various multiple housing type starts, that proportion increases to 77 .,ercent.

And if we further restrict ourselves to the highest density form, apartment starts, the proportion again increases to an amazing 91 percent The growing inability on the part of the private sector to supply its traditional markets at affordable costs without massive public subsidy has necessitated the development of a more comprehensive program package on the part of this govern ment. As I indicated earlier, the primary thrust of the govern ment's housing policy has been to assist low income Man itobans to obtain decent shelter, and this will continue to be a major priority area.

In addition to the provision of new rental housing for low income Manitobans, this government has also rehabilitated some 30,000 units owned by people in the lower income scale, lower portion of the income scale, at a cost to date of some $14 million under the Critical Home Repair Prog ram, and its predecessor the Pensioner s Home Repair Program .

For the current year an additional $5 million has been allo cated. -he twin objectives of housing rehabilitation policy are: (1) to ensure that lower income family and pensioner home owners may have the opportunity to maintain their older units so that they may take greater pride and live in greater comfort in their own homes, and (2) to contribute toward the preservation of our housing stock for future gene rations. lt is intended that our rehabilitation programming, which has been hailed as a pioneering effort, both by other provinces who have followed us, and outside of Canada, will continue to hold a sign ificant place in our overall housing prcg ram.

Programs geared to the needs of low income Man itobans do not however, in this day and age, represent a comprehensi ve housing policy. There are a growing number of Manitobans in the moderate to middle income ranges who have traditionally aspired to the ownership of their own homes, who are, due to perverse market conditions, being den ied this opportunity. The phenomenal rate of inflation el<perienced in the last five years was, in itself, not so damaging to this group, in terms of most essential cost of living items, that these fam ilies were not able to keep pace minimally.

However, with respect to housing prices, the rate of inflation was nearly double that ofthe overall rate of inflation, and with the result that many such families require some form of subsidy to realize traditional home ownership aspirations. And, on this subject this government's conclusions appear to be in agreement with those expressed by the private housing industry.

In 19 75, the Housing and Urban Development Association presented a brief to us and the Federal Government, in which they indicated that without institution of a program pro viding for subsidies to the industry, or directly to householders for families with incomes belqw $15, 000 per year, they could not receive an adequate return on their development investments. The enorm ity of this problem as perceived by HUDAM can be appreciated when it is realized that according to 19 75 tax data 70 percent ofthe Man itoba families had earn ings less than $15, 000.00.

The H U DAM subm ission served as testimony to the fact that even with the range of subsidies already available through the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation' not to mention various tax incentives, the private sector is by ant;� large incapable of serving all but the highest income Manitobans today. Adm ittedly MHRC has not yet made a sign ificant impact, insofar as the moderate income housing market is concerned.

However, as was announc ed in the Throne Speech, we will shortly be initiating the servicing of some 500 acres of our 4,000 acre Winn ipeg Land Bank. lt is intended that the first group of lots will be on stream by the fall of this year. Our subdivision plans are geared to the development of homes predominantly for those in the moderate income range. We are confident that the lot prices and unit end prices will be significantly below what is considered to be normal market levels. Our· pricing will oe based more closely on actual costs than what the mark et will bring.

At the same time we will attempt to ensure that while we are not taking full potential market profit, perspective purchasers, 2080

Tuesday, April 19 , 19 77 who might wish to specu late on the taxpayers investment, will not easily be able to do so either. And, although we know that we cannot fully effect mark et stab ilization, we are confident that we will effect a sign ificant lag on the rate of increase of housing prices over the long run, I must emphasize over the long run. I cannot expect this in the short ru n. Mr .

Cha irman, there are other program thrusts which have been undertaken by MHRC since 19 69, and we will be able to discuss some details ofthese if members so desire, including our support of co op housing , for instance, including our Rural Mortgage Lending Program , including our assistance to non-profit housing corporations where these seem to fit the bill, and so on.

The important point, however, is that since 19 69, since my col leagues and myself have been around, we have had a very active housing program , MH RC has been delivering a very comprehensive programming package and I am pleased to observe that MHRC is indeed one of the most dynamic Crown housing agencies in the entire country. On that note I would be very pleased to discuss the Estim ates of this corporation. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Member for River He ights. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Chairman , on just on the point of privilege, Mr. Chairman, before we begin, and not to take away from the first speaker.

I wonder, because the officials are here, whether the Minister is now in a position to indicate when the report oft he Manitoba Housing and Renewal was sent to the printers for printing, the letter of transmittal was Jan uary 25th. MP. EVANS: On March 22n d. MR . SPIVAK: Wel l, I wonder if there can be an explanation for the delay, 1 mean, 1 think it is incredible to ask us to deal with something that was ju st presented to the Legislature today, in view of the fact that the transm ittal did take place on Jan uary 25th. MR. EVANS: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I can assure the honourable member that I have been as anxious as he awaiting this report, as a matter of fact, there was a danger that we wouldn't have it for today, and it simply is coincidental that we did get it from the printers today. As I indicated in the Legislature earlier this afternoon, I have del ivered it to the mem bers virtually within an hour or so of having received it. MR . SPIVAK: The requirement under the Act is that this report is to be produced forthwith. That is a requirement under the Act.

Well, I would suggest that if it went to the printer a month after the Legislature started, that isn't a procedure that would indicate forthwith, and if you want to I think you should speak to the Clerk as to whether that is or is not, the requirement under the Act. MR. EVANS: Well, Mr . Chairman , I only repeat that the staff have worked very hard on this and have been very conscious of the need to avoid any delay, and as I am advised, it was printed and prepared as exped itiously as possible. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. J. FRANK JOHNSTON: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I would ju st like to elaborate on the factthat it is very disappointing to receive a report on the MHRC the day we are going to be working on their Fc;timates. I think that the Minister must realize the importance of the amount of money that is being spent here.

The fact that the Minister has elabor ated very much on the fact that the amount of work that has been done since 19 69, and he continually mentions that particular year, I would go over with this Minister, who is a new Minister, in this public housing situation, and remind him that previous to 19 69 the efforts were basically on urban renewal within this province, and it wasn't until Mr. Andras became the Minister that large sums of money were made available to housing and the format was changed by the Federal Govern ment .

Given the opportunity to spend that type of money, I would say that any govern ment in power, with any sense, would have carried on a public housing program, and I assure you it would have been done under our government. So let us ju st clear the air on that one right now, and we will now talk about what is happen ing in the Man itoba Housing Corporation. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. Matthews state his point of privilege. MR. JOHANNSON: I fail to see that the Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek was talking to a poiflt of privilege, but back to the point of privilege raised by the ... MR.

CHAIRMAN: No, the Honour able Member for Stur geon Creek was not on a matter of privilege, he indicated a wish to speak to this resolution and I so recognized him. MR. JOHANNSON: On the point of privilege, Mr. Chai rman, raised by the Member for River Height s, if the Minister just received the copy of the report from the printer an hour before, I don't see what else he could do. I\IIR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Min ister. MR. EVANS: Mr. Chairman , on that same point, I would like to read the

section of the Housing and Renewal Corporation Act which refers to the tabling of the Annual Report, this is

Section 4, subsection 3: "The Corporation shall make a report annuall y to the Minister upon the affairs of the Corporation, and the Minister shall submit the report to the Lieutenant-Governor -in-Council and shall lay the report before the Legislative Assembly if it is then in Session, or if it is not then in Session, at the next ensuing Session." There is no word "forthwith" included in this, and I would advise that 2081

Tuesday, April 19 , 19 77 this particular

section dates back to the Act passed in 19 66-67, so we have tabled this report, in fact, there is nothing illegal if the report wasn't even prepared by today, and I am pleased that it is prepared finally - I have been waiting for it very anxiously myself - but, the fact is that there is nothing illegal or irregular in tabling the report as quickly as I have been able to tab le it. I\II R. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for River He ights. ,JIR.

SPIVAK: The Min ister received the report on or about the 25th of Janu ary. lt seemed to me that he has been rather slow in getting it to the printers, and if it was referred to the Board and not referred to the Minister until later, then I think we should know that as well, because it would seem to me that there was an obligation for a Min ister to be able to present the report, for us to be intelligently able to discuss the Estimates, and to vote in favour or not in favour ot the amounts that are asked for. 1t would seem to me that there is an obligation incumb ent upon the govern ment, and incumbent upon the Min ister, to at least produce it in such a way that we can deal with it adequately And while we may not have any alternative but to deal with it now, I think that the objections should be raised because I think that this has been rather sloppy in the sense that it should have been with us before.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Member for St. Matthews to the same point. MR. JOHANNSON: Yes, Mr. Chair man, the only thing that is sloppy here is the research of the Honour able Mem ber for River Heights. The Minister has spelled out the fact that there was no point of the legislation broken, contrary to what the member told us, and the mem ber is simply wasting the time of the Committee with frivalous matters. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. We heard the

section ofthe Act read out by the Minister, the Chair is of the opinion that none of the honourable mem bers have a point of privilege. May we return to the debate before us, Resolution 77, the Honou rable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. J. FRANK JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, I am going to refer to the Auditor's Report of the year ending 19 76, and in Management In formation and Contro l Systems, no effective action has been taken regarding our main concern pertainin g to development and operation of an effective management information system including the internal reporting procedures at fiscal controls.

We have been advised that steps will be taken to obtain assistance to resolve this matter. Mr. Ch.lir man, the Minister, I think at th is time, should explain what has been done - because in the Auditor's reports in the previous years he has mentioned the same thing, and he has also said regarding our main concern. Now what steps are being taken to solve the problems that the Auditor has reported in this particular statement of his? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Minister. MR. EVANS: Yes, Mr .

Chairman, I can advise the Comm ittee that, in view of the Auditor's concern and recommendations, we have now interviewed three major consulting firms who are special ists in financial management systems, I could give you the names if you wish, but we have interviewed three of them and we have asked for, as a follow-up, written subm issions. I believe we have received one ·v ritten subm ission and the other two are due very shortly and we will be making a selection of one of these to assist us in strengthening the financial control mechan isms within the corporation. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Well, Mr .

Chairman' as the Hono urable Minister has just received this report and I take a quick gla nce at it, I find that the Churchill Housing Authority as of December 1, 19 75, "however, before essential losses of $932 ,14 4 on the operations of Churchill Housing Authority has been in the books of the Corporation for the year ended March 31 , 19 76." But, Mr . Chairman, that's nearly a million dollar loss on the Churchill Housing Authority. I wonder ifthe Min ister could explain what is being done and what control do you have over the Churchill Housing Authority? MR. EVANS: Excuse me, Mr . Chairman .

I wonder if the honourable memb er could indicate where he is reading in the report. MR. F. JOHNSTON: I am reading from Page 42 of the Report. MR. EVANS: Page 42. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Towards the bottom of the first column under Item 2. Now, I read that as a loss of $932,000.00. MR. EVANS: Yes, that figure relates, Mr. Chairman, to the rental subsidy that is provided for the public housing in that area. We have 10 4 housing authorities in Man itoba; they all deal with subsidized situations of course.

This is the nature of the program, 50-50 federal-provincial subsidy program, and this amount of money, I am advised, is the amount of money which would be paid out as a rental su bsidy through the Churchill Housing Authority. MR. F. JOHNSTON: How many housing authorities did the Minister say there was? MR. EVANS: I believe there are now 10 4 housing authorities in Man itoba. I would like to elaborate, Mr. Chairman, very briefly on our arrangement. Manitoba is very unique in this respect. I believe we are the only province that has delegated the responsibil ity for administering the properties of the corporation.

We have done this by estab lishing what we refer to as a Local Housing Authority. The biggest, of course, in the province is the Winnipeg Regional Housing Authority but we have them in the cities and towns where public housing exists. 2082

Tuesday, April 19 , 19 77 The boards of these Authorities are appointed by the Minister in this way. One-third of the board is nominated by the Municipal Council; one-third of the board is elected for nomination by the tenants of public housing, whether they be senior citizens' housing or family housing ; and one-third are citizens chosen at large. These names are submitted to the Minister who then appoints the board. Nor mally boards are six or nine memb ers but they may vary from that but this is the normal size.

The board, once constituted, has the responsibility, as I said, for maintaining the property, for collecting the rents, paying the utility costs and so forth. And they also have the responsibil ity for screening applications, they hire the manager, the caretakin g staff, etc. Unl ike most other provinces, therefore, we do not have a large staff within MH RC required to work on the maintenance of these properties scattered through 10 4 commun ities in Man itoba. Unl ike the Ontario Housing Authority, we do not have hundreds of civil servants in effect required for this work.

We have delegated it, it has been decentralized, the commun ities are involved, the tenants are involved and I think it seems to be working gener ally fairly well. In the case of the Churchill Housing Authority, the same applies. One-third of that board is suggested for appointment by the Town of Churchill; one-third would be elected by the tenants; and, as I said, one-third at large. And it is that Housing Authority legally constituted, that would receive various subsidy payments by the Manitoba Housing Corporation. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Chairman , again in the report of the aud itors, it mentions housing authorities and it says, "H owever, difficulties in controlling these operations are being encou ntered because the Corporation does not place sufficient emphasis on monitoring the administrative practices of these authorities or giving special supervision to those authorities who have demonstrated weaknesses in internal admin istration. This lack of adequate direction and control results in ineffective rent collections and other inefficiency practices resulting in subsidies to these authorities being higher than necessary.

The difficulties mainl y arise from the staffing deficiencies which the Corporation is trying to overcome." Now, that's the second time in the Auditor's Report that I have ment ioned that the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation are trying to overcome something. Now, the crux of the statement that is made by the auditor there is because of bad administration over these authorities, it is costing the province more money than it should. Now what particular control is the Man itoba Housing and Renewal Corporation going to take to take steps to save the people of Man itoba money. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister has one minu te. MR. EVANS: Thank you, Mr. Chair man. Very briefly, we have retained two more housing (::0- ordinators, these are field co-ordinators, to help us get a better handle on the operations of the housing authorities and we have hired an additional financial person, an auditor type, who is located in the Man itoba Housing staff in Winnipeg and we feel with the addition of these three positions, we are going to be able to come to gr ips with some of the prob lems that the auditor refers to.

I would point out' of course, there has been such a rapid expansion of this type of housing throughout the province that it is hard to keep up with. The Corporation has been so very active. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. In accordance with our Rule 19 (2) , I am interrupting the proceedings of the Committee for Private Memb ers' Hour. I will return to the Chair at 8 p.m. 2083

THE LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y of MANITOBA Tuesday, April 19 , 19 77 ESTIMATES - CON TINU ING EDUCATION MR. CHAIRMAN, Mr. William Jenkins (Logan): I would refer honourable memb ers to Page 16 of their Estimates Book. I would also refer you to the sheet that you received making a correction in Resolution 40. lt is broken down. This was distributed, all the mem bers have it, or should have it. Resolution 40 is split into Sections (a) (

b) and (c) . The new

section which was distributed as a sheet to members; Resolution No. 40, Support Services Intern al, Program Description (

a) Minister's Compensation - Salary and Representation Allowance. The Honour able Minister of Continuing Education and Manpower. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr . Chairman, in presenting the Estim ates for the Department of Continuing Education and Manpower, I should like to deal with those aspects of the operation of my department which I did not mention in my remarks earlier in this Sess ion, during the debate on the Throne Speec h. At that time I dealt in some detail with certain aspects of the work of my department that were relevant to that debate.

In particular I mentioned the special programs being offered to help the handicapped and disadvantaged through special university programs and through New Careers. These are important programs, but it's not my intention to repeat what I had said earlier. At that time, Mr. Chairman , I dealt also with some aspects of the Manpower side of my department, and I will not cover these points again, but I will draw the memb ers' attention to some of the relevant data relating this

section and to the Community Colleges. I comment briefly on the sign ificance of the change in name of my department. lt has been apparent for some time that the changing nature of the work of the Department of Colleges and Un iversities Affairs suggested that a more encompas sing title could better describe the department. As honourable members know, Special Projects has included a wide range of activities, only some of 1 which involve university or college programs. New Careers is job based. The Park lands activities in the field of commun ity education. it seemed desirable also, Mr .

Chair man, to focus responsibil ity in the govern ment on Manpower activities. From all this was concluded that the title "Department of Continuing Education and Manpower" would be more descriptive of the areas of responsibil ity encom passed by this department. Mr. Chair man, I should now like to give you an overview of the Estimates from my department. The fir st

section in the Estimates deals with the normal admin istrative functions of any department and is well summarized in the brief statement printed in the Estimates. All memb ers are well aware of the programs offered in the Commun ity Colleges, and of the sign ificant contribution that is being made by the three colleges, namely Red River Commun ity College in Winnipeg, Assiniboine Commun ity College in Brandon and Keewatin Community College in The Pas.

This contribution js being made, not only to the province to strengthen and extend the economic development of the province, but most importantly, to the citizens of Manitoba who enrol as students in the colleges. Em ollments in the colleges have grown steadily, even though post-secondary enrollments are now levelling off and are projected in a year or two to beg in to decline, the colleges are still experien cing an increase in demand for cou rses. Members will know, Mr. Chairman, that many students enrolled in the colleges are placed there by . Canada Manpower, for training, retrainin g or for upgrading.

I should like to digress briefly here, Mr. Chairman , to acknowledge the exce llent work being done by the Manpower Needs Comm ittee, which is a join t body between the Federal Government and the Provincial Government and eo chaired jointl y to exam ine the needs of the labour market and the economic indicators, to develop a statement of the training program required for Manitoba to submit to the Federal Department of Manpower and Imm igration.

This Comm ittee is widely representative of both governmen ts and has developed well documented and well supported proposals to Ottawa which have resulted in a level of training in Man itoba that has helped many Manitobans to secure training and later to secure employment. I will have more to say about this, Mr. Chairman, in the fo llowing section. lt is difficult to present enrollment figures that are meaningful with respect to the Commu nity Colleges, because of the diversified learn ing opportunities that are available through the col leges. There are full time students taking a full year's program .

There are apprentices, who although they attend full time, do so for only a limited number of weeks. Sign ificant numb ers of students take evening school or other short courses in the colleges. However, to quantify the enroll ments so members will have some idea of size, may I say that in cumula tive enrollments for all students, the numbers for 19 76 are as follows: Red River 22,984' Assiniboine 4,940, and Keewat in 4,287.

Now if one were to ask how many students are actually at the colleges, it is best to pick a representative date and say that in March 19 77 the enrollment was 5,14 2 at Red River, 1, 13 6 at Assiniboine and 61 1 at Keewat in in daytime attendance. 2084

Tuesday, April 19 , 19 77 Because the colleges are oriented toward job trai ning and to the labour market, there is a continuing need for all those connected with their operation to keep under review the demands of the lab'our market, both now and for the future. I have indicated that this is done by the Manpower Needs Committee. lt is also done by the Man power division, by the Planning and Evaluation section, by the colleges and by other government departments.

The results of this continuing review can lead to term inating programs where needs have reduced or changed, estab lishing new programs where new needs develop or modifying programs to keep them and their graduates in tune with the labour market. The col leges obviously cannot be fine-tuned to the labour market to produce only the right numb er of people with the right qualifications, because neither the labour market nor individuals are predictable.

Nevertheless the necessary steps are continually being taken to achieve a desirable balance for the benefit of graduates and to meet the needs of the province for trained people. lt would be appropriate for me to mention here, Mr . Cha irman, one aspect of the reorganization that I referred to earlier. We have brought together, under the Assistant Deputy Min ister responsible for the colleges, various aspects of post-secondary educati on that it seemed useful to consider as a whole, as one unit. This new structure is just nicely underway, so I shall not go into much detail.

Because of the nature of operations of Spec ial Projects, New Careers and Community Education for which the Estimates are in

Section 5. These sections have been joi ned into the whole which I have just mentioned. Memb ers will note a new

section in the Estim ates for the colleges entitled Planning and Evaluation. This

section operated previously as Instructional Planning and Evaluation and was included in Division Admin istration. Its role has been widened and it seemed more appropriate to estab lish it as a separate entity. Basica lly it does the plannin g and evaluation, that I referred to earlier, that needs to be done centrally. Each college has an educational development officer who carries out course development and evaluation at the college level, and who works in a close relationship with both the college and Planning and Evaluation.

Accounting and information systems have been established which allow us to monitor closely our training delivery and associated costs. Quarterly exam inations of the data, that is the actual dollars spent and the actual training delivered, have enable us to operate very close to the money available from Canada. Considering that our budget from Canada is $10 million to $1 1 million I consider this to be a noteworthy achievement.

I might also mention, at this point , that the work that my department has undertaken, with respect to the development of cost analysis systems and other administrative information and analytical systems, has resulted in our colleges realizing a level of operating efficiency which can best be illustrated by the fact that our cost, per training day, will only have risen 19 cents from 19 75-76 to 19 77-78. Now clearly this is an achievement of which we can all be justly proud. I mentio ned earlier, Mr . Chairman, the important need to keep course content relevant to the demands of the lab our market.

Honourable mem bers will note that this is a concern shared by Canada inasmuch as they support fully the Training Impr ovement Program for the courses provided and the various areas related to adult basic education and skil led training. As well as on-campus courses, all the colleges have extensive off-campus or extension courses.

These courses range from 52 week courses, in adult basic education to raise the academ ic level of adults who need this training to improve their job qualifications or to proceed to skill train ing , to short intensive courses in various areas related to agricu I tu re for exam ple, to improve their ski lis and capacities of those working in that field. These off-campus courses are scattered over the whole province wherever Canada Manpower can identify a sufficient number of students to enr ol I in a course.

Local facilities of all kinds are used in this program, as well as local people as instructors where possible. 1 should like to conclude this

section by mentioning the very successful program being offered at Red River Community College for deaf students. In addition to attending regular classes during the school year students take summer courses to help them get ready for the college program and to familiar ize them with the college. Students are provided with interpreters who help them to keep up in regu lar classes and thereby enabling them· to make reg ular progress in their training program. While the major contributor, under a �hared cost agreement for students outside Manitoba is Saskatchew an, there are students under this agreement from two other provinces. .. I would now wish to turn to the next

section of my department dealing with the Un iversities Grants Commission. Now I'm sure, Mr. Chairman, that all memb ers are aware of the situation in our Ur, iversities, as well as the general situation in Canada because of the wide coverag.e that is provided them by the media. I am sure everyone is aware also that the University ofManitoba is.ce lebrating its centenn ial this year and we would want, I'm sure, Mr.

Chairman, to extend best\ wishes to the Un iversity. · The history of the Un iversity of Manitoba and its constituent and founding colleges is inextricably bound up with the history of our province. lt is popular these days, Mr . .C hairman, for many people to say that the heyday for education is \ ) 2085

Tuesday, Apri1 19 , 19 77 over. The implication is that educational funding has been so generous that educational institutions are going to have to manage on less. I'm sure, Mr. Chair man, that anyone who stops to think for a moment knows there is something wrong with this arg ument. Of course, in the recent past there were high levels of capital spending for all education in the rush to provide needed facilities. As enrollments mushroomed, operating costs increased substantially.

We are now in a period of enrollment stabi lization at the post-secondary level and a decline in the school system. lt is only reasonable that cost increases will slow down. just Now a brief overview of the universities. I ju st want to highlight a couple of points. We're continuing to propose that additional funds be provided for our universities and St. Bon iface College because enr olments are still rising - albeit at a slow rate - and I will deal in some detail with that later on. In flation continues to push up universities' as well as all other costs. We expect, Mr.

Chairman, that our universities will have to look carefully at their operations and costs, as will all branches of government and other agencies associated with govern ment. We recognize the importance of universities in the life of the province and in the future lives of those who attend and who profit from their attendance. We think that our proposal to increase the funds for universities by almost 11 percent is a reasonable and a proper one, and will permit the universities to continue to fulfill and discharge their responsibil ities to the people of Man itoba.

I think it would be appropriate for me to remind all honourable members, Mr . Chairman, that our universities operate under

an Act of this Legislature - the Un iversities Estab lishment Act -a nd that is the Un iversities of Brandon and Winnip eg, and the Un iversity of Man itoba operates under

an Act of its own. I mention this, Mr. Chairman, because people sometimes want to know what the government or what I am doing or going to do about matters involving the universities. I want to stress and emphasize, Mr. Chairman, that the role of government is in the funding of the universities and matters related thereto. After the amount of that funding has been determined here, the Un iversities Grants Comm ission, by statute, has the responsibility to distribute these funds. I do feel, Mr.

Chair man, that the Un iversities Grants Commission has, over the years, discharged its responsibil ities in a very s2tisfactory mann er. I have mentioned that the grants to the universities will show an 11 percent increase for the forthcoming fiscal year which, translated into dollars, means this would result in an operating grant of $94,433 ,600.00. That is an 11 percent increase over the amount provided in last year's Main Estimates.

As I have said, I do bel ieve that this compares very favourably when one looks across Canada and one finds that provinces such as Ontario and Br itish Columbia have only provided for a 10 percent increase in their grants to the universities with in those two provinces. At the same time, we do bel ieve that it is unnecessary for universities to implement any tuition fee or any significant tuition fee increases, but we recognize that under existing leg islation only the universities have the right to estab lish tuition fees.

Therefore, if any one of the institutions decides to increase tuition fees, it certainly is not the intention of this government to object. That is a powerw h ich the universities have. Now, in addition to the figure of $94.4 million in the current Estimates, I would ju st like to draw to your attention that you will also be asked to authorize the borrowing of $4 million for Miscellaneous and Special Capital Purposes, and a further borrowing of up to $3.5 million for Major Capital PJ rposes, making the total Supply for Cu rrent and Ongoing Capital Purposes in excess of $10 0 million - $10 1. 9 million.

And the corresponding figure, Capital and Operating, for the fiscal year just ended, was $89 million made up of $85 million the Main Estimate and $4 million Capita l. As I have indicated , the growth of un iversities is levelling off after having experienc ed a very rapid increase in enrol ment. For exam ple, in 19 60, the full-time enrolment in our universities was 6,200 students; in 19 70, 16 ,760 students and in 19 76, six years later, 17 ,426 students.

So during the first ten year interval that I have referred to, the increase was from 6,2 00 to 16 ,700 students, roughly about 250 percent increase, or well over, about 16 6 percent increase - one being 266 percent of the other-s o the actual increase about 16 6 percent. Then in the six years that followed the increase was in the order of, well less than 10 percent of the 19 70 figure.

The full-time enrolment for the forthcoming year shows a modest increase from the figure of 17 ,400, that I have mentioned , for 19 77, 17 ,775. 1\.ow, the increase in part-time enrolment in 19 60, well it showed an increase in this field, which is climbing perhaps at a somewhat more rapid rate than it had been all along although that is tapering off somewhat too. ln 19 60, the part-time enrolment was 4,369 and it quadrupled by 19 70 to 17 ,395 and then it began tapering off over the last six years, 19 76 it stood at 21 ,253 - another 25 percent increase from 19 70, roughly.

The increase in part-time enrolment, especially in the last decade, shows a new degree of public commitments to continuing education in universities. Of those enrolled part-time in 19 76, 11 ,707 were in the regular winter session and 9,546 in the summer session. Several years ago, it had been estimated that part-time enr olment would overtake full-time enrolment in the mid Seventies. Clearly, the number enrolled on a part-time basis is now greater than full-time enr olment.

Another measure of growth appears in the increase of gross operating expenditures which have risen from $1 1. 3 million in 19 60-61 to $24 million in 19 65-66 and $89 mil lion in 19 75-76. The 2086

Tuesday, April 19 , 19 77 universities budget figures for 19 76-77 are estimated to be $10 1 million and these figures do not include grants in lieu of taxes of approximately $6.5 mi llion. In the period from 19 60-61 to 19 76-77, the universities' revenues from tu itions fees have increased from $2.1 million to $1 0.9 million, an increase of about 41 9 percent. Provincial operating grants have increased from $4.4 million to $94.4 million in 19 77-78, including the $7.2 million for grants in lieu of taxes, an increase almost five times as great as the tuition fee increase.

Research income has increased from $1 .6 million to approximately $1 2 million, an increase of 650 percent. In the same time, by way of comparison, full-time enrolment increased from 6,232 to 17 ,426, an increase of 18 0 percent. So I would suggest to you, Mr. Cha i rman , that in considering the Estimates of my department and considering the level of support that the universities receive from the province, that these figures be kept in mind and that these matters be placed in their proper perspective - the increase in enrolment on the one hand and the increase in the level of provincial support.

In particular, the increase in the level of provincial support commencing 19 69 as it contrasts with that prior to 19 69. The Clarkson-Vayda Report which has reference to the redevelopment of the Health Science area, has an impact on the Un iversity of Man itoba and its Faculty of Medicine. One of the recommenda tions in the Report deals with the question of enrolment in the Faculty of Medicine.

The Chairman of the Un iversities Grants Comm ission has been appointed to chair the Medical Manpower Committee formed under the joint sponsorship of the Ministry of Health and Social Development and the Min istry of Continuing Education and Manpower to deal with this and other important questions relating to the supply of positions. lt is inevitable that under the pressures of rapid growth, each university should tend to think of its own expansion and isolation from other universities both within the province and in the Prairie Region.

Without suitable controls, unnecessary and undesirable duplication of programs and facilities could result. These controls are exercised in Man itoba by the Un iversities Grants Comm ission under its statutory powers. And inter-provincial ly, on the prairies and in British Columbia, by the Western Canada Post-Secondary Co-ordinating Committee which includes Min isters of Higher Education of the Western Provinces and officials designa ted by them. In Man itoba, our three universities and St. Bon iface College all offer programs at the undergraduate level.

During the past year, the Universities of Manitoba and Winnipeg have agreed to co-operative teaching arrangements leading to joint Masters programs in limited fields. As the figures already quoted above show, the costs of post-secondary education have been increasing at a phenomenal rate and both the Federal and Provincial Governments have had concerns about the nature of measu res which would control these costs while continuing to guarantee education at a high level of quality to all those who want it and can profit from it.

Federal cost-sharing of post-secondary expenditures provided for in the Fiscal Arrangement s Act will cease as of March 31 , 19 77. The provinces and the Government of Canada have concluded alternative fiscal transfer arrangements. The universities and the commission are paying particular attention to the reduction or restraint of costs but without reducing needed services. I am sure, Mr. Chai rman , that the committee will be interested to learn that some of the recommendations included in the report of the Task Force on Post-Secondary Education have been implemented.

These refer to the category method of budgeting and the financing of the institutions and to graduate studies and research planning. The Un iversities Grants Comm ission determined that it wished to change the format for budgeting and undertook to provide the basis for the subm ission of the institutions' budgets on a categorical basis. This, of course, in accordance with the legislative powers of the Grants Comm ission. Other recommen dations in the Task Force Report are being implemented or actively studied.

The government and the Un iversities Grants Comm ission, faced with a more moderate enrolment growth, have become much more cautious in approving any new capital or academ ic programs. We are also well aware that previous enr olment forecasting methodology based upon historical trends is no longer valid. Although university enrolments are increasing marginal ly, the growth rate has slowed down perceptibly. Substantial numb ers of high school students are turning to other forms of post-secondary education - many going directly into the world of work.

Some steps which have been taken by the Un iversities Grants Comm ission to clarify the enrolment trends and to make better use of our univers

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-4-42a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 4th hansardpdf 42a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	02ea2fb312115fe30b69e43deca4e5f05c4916b4

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