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November 25, 2014

41st Parliament, 1st Session

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Hansard Transcripts

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

Hansard Transcripts 2014-Nov-25 (PDF)

L032 - Tue 25 Nov 2014 / Mar 25 nov 2014

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ONTARIO

ASSEMBLÉE LÉGISLATIVE DE L’ONTARIO

Tuesday 25 November 2014 Mardi 25 novembre 2014

ORDERS OF THE DAY

Better Business Climate Act, 2014 / Loi de 2014 visant à instaurer un climat plus propice aux affaires

Wearing of scarves

Wearing of ribbons

Introduction of Visitors

Board of Internal Economy

Visitors

Oral Questions

Energy policies

Government accountability

Ontario public service

Health care

Access to information

Government accountability

Electronic commerce

Transportation planning

Nuclear safety

Northern transportation

Heritage conservation

Ring of Fire

Employment standards

Services for the developmentally disabled

Protection for workers

Wildlife management

Visitors

Deferred Votes

Time allocation

Members’ Statements

Violence against women

Ron Colasanti

Campbellville tree lighting

Huron Manufacturing Association Awards of Excellence

Windsor International Film Festival

Ottawa Rape Crisis Centre

Dillon Carman

Violence against women

Adoption Awareness Month

Reports by Committees

Standing Committee on Government Agencies

Standing Committee on Social Policy

Introduction of Bills

Healthy Decisions for Healthy Eating Act, 2014 / Loi de 2014 favorisant des choix sains pour une alimentation saine

Statements by the Ministry and Responses

Healthy living / Saines habitudes de vie

Petitions

Air quality

Diagnostic services

Environmental protection

Alzheimer’s disease

Hydro rates

Child care

Asthma

Office of the Ombudsman

Hydro rates

Off-road vehicles

Fishing regulations

Prix de l’essence

Government services

Orders of the Day

Safeguarding Health Care Integrity Act, 2014 / Loi de 2014 de sauvegarde de l’intégrité des soins de santé

Security for Courts, Electricity Generating Facilities and Nuclear Facilities Act, 2014 / Loi de 2014 sur la sécurité des tribunaux, des centrales électriques et des installations nucléaires

The House met at 0900.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Good morning. Please join me in prayer.

Prayers.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

Better Business Climate Act, 2014 / Loi de 2014 visant à instaurer un climat plus propice aux affaires

Resuming the debate adjourned on November 24, 2014, on the motion for second reading of the following bill:

Bill 7,

An Act to enact the Burden Reduction Reporting Act, 2014 and the Partnerships for Jobs and Growth Act, 2014 / Projet de loi 7, Loi édictant la Loi de 2014 sur l’obligation de faire rapport concernant la réduction des fardeaux administratifs et la Loi de 2014 sur les partenariats pour la création d’emplois et la croissance.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Further debate?

Mr. John Vanthof: It’s always an honour to be able to stand in this House and represent the views of my party, the NDP, and also the views of the good people of Timiskaming–Cochrane and specifically on this bill, Bill 7.

I’d like to read the official title first:

An Act to enact the Burden Reduction Reporting Act, 2014 and the Partnerships for Jobs and Growth Act, 2014. The title has all the right words. “Burden reduction”: Business likes to hear that because business is burdened by a lot of regulations. “Partnerships for jobs and growth”: Again, those are things that business likes to hear. From that, I give the official title top marks. It’s a really good title. Then we go to the unofficial title, which is the Better Business Climate Act. Once again, great marks. The title gets great marks.

Just to clear the confusion, if there’s any confusion, we are going to support this bill, by the way.

But we do have to read further than the title, because one thing we’ve learned from this government is that they are really good at the great titles. Then, sometimes when you read the bill further, which is our job, you realize that what the bill says and what the title says are two different things. The reason they give the really good titles is so they can say, “Well, how could you vote against something like that?” But they’re basing that on the title. That’s why it’s important: When you’re in government and you have a really thin bill, you need a really good title. That’s really important.

Everyone at home should remember that: If the bill is really small, a big title is really important. It’s got to get all the catchy words like “partnership,” “growth,” “jobs” and “burden reduction.” It’s really important.

The next thing we’re going to look at in this bill is the explanatory notes. Basically, for the folks at home, the explanatory notes are kind of like the Coles Notes of what this bill is about. If you don’t want to read all the legal stuff, which we do, but you want to get a quick read of what this bill is about, you check out the explanatory notes; very important.

This bill has two main parts.

Schedule 1 is the Burden Reduction Reporting Act part—again, very important to business. I’ll read the explanatory notes, because they’re pretty interesting, actually. “Schedule 1 enacts the Burden Reduction Reporting Act, 2014, which requires the Minister of Economic Development, Employment and Infrastructure to publish an annual report with respect to actions taken by the government of Ontario to reduce burdens.” Basically, this is a piece of legislation that forces the government to produce a report. That’s something the government could do without a specific piece of legislation.

It doesn’t really say what the government is going to do to reduce the burden. Good regulations are there to protect the population. For those who are worried that some good regulations will be gutted, it doesn’t say how that’s not going to happen either. It’s basically a report. So is a report good? Sure, a report is good. Does it warrant the brouhaha of the great title? I’m not so sure. We’re talking about a report; we’re passing legislation for a report.

But there is a second part to the bill which may be, perhaps—let’s hope—much stronger than the first part. The second part “enacts the Partnerships for Jobs and Growth Act, which states that the Minister of Economic Development, Employment and Infrastructure may”—not he shall or not he must, but he may—“prepare plans with respect to the development of clusters. As part of the preparation of a plan, the minister must consult”—there’s a “must”; that’s good—“as he or she considers advisable, with persons or entities that have an interest in the development of the cluster.

The plan must contain specified items, including the objectives and intended outcomes of the plan and performance measures. The minister is required to review the plan and make public a report”—oh, another report—“with respect to the results of the review. The minister is given various regulation-making powers with respect to the plans.”

We’re talking about clusters, and clusters are a good thing. We’ve got the high-tech cluster in Waterloo, a cluster that a lot of people—in my region we have several, actually, right close to Temiskaming Shores. Because in northern Ontario we are one of the biggest agricultural areas, we have an agricultural service cluster in Temiskaming Shores, in that area around Earlton and New Liskeard. Whenever farmers in northern Ontario, northeastern Ontario or northwestern Quebec need parts or service for their equipment, they go to Temiskaming Shores or Earlton. That’s where all the dealers are; that’s an agricultural service cluster; that’s where there are a lot of elevators.

The Minister of Northern Development and Mines was just in my region, and I’m sure he appreciated how much agriculture is there. That area, those elevators, those dealerships, those service people, they service the whole northeastern Ontario and northwestern Quebec. That’s a cluster. A lot of people don’t think of it that way, but that is what it is. It developed, I’d say, autonomously, as many other clusters did as well.

If we use that as an example, I’m not sure how this bill is going to help them or hurt them, because in most cases clusters develop for reasons of geography or the people who are there, or in the case of Waterloo, because there were one or two companies and excellent universities, and that’s why they developed. I’m not sure and we’re not sure if this bill is actually leading the charge or just hooking a caboose on the train and trying to get some mileage out of someone else’s work. It’s not clear what this bill is going to do to actually help the cluster.

Again, the title is much stronger than what’s actually in the bill.

There are a few things that the government could actually do regarding both parts of the bill. The first

part is reducing burden, and I’ve got a couple of examples in my riding. I have the honour of representing a company in my riding: Mohawk Garnet. They developed a garnet mine—not like gemstone garnet, but sandpaper garnet, 3M garnet. One of the very important things about that that’s very noteworthy is that it’s the only wholly-owned First Nation mining operation in Canada. That’s incredible. And they started this from scratch. By chance, I happened to the meet the manager of this operation. I met him a few years ago when I was travelling on behalf of the federation of agriculture to the Think North Summit in Thunder Bay. Remember the Think North Summit? That’s where I met Mr. Bob McMurdy.

I’ve talked a lot to Bob, and I’ve followed his progression in trying to develop this mining opportunity. He could tell you horror stories about the hoops that he’s had to jump through to get this going. Believe me, the First Nations are not out to break rules; neither is the management of Mohawk Garnet.

It’s issues that could and should be solved very easily, but, I would say—what’s the word I’m looking for?—the attitude of some of the members in the bureaucracy is not an attitude of, “Okay, let’s see what we can do to fix this problem” or, “How can we make sure there’s a remedy in place to get this done?” The attitude is more, “Well, you know what? These are the rules and you are just going to have to sit tight until we get there.” That is one of the things that has to change.

But I don’t see it, and I think that’s what business is hoping for when they read titles of bills like this. When you actually read what is or what isn’t in the bill, it’s not the same as the title. At least with this bill—and I will give credit where credit is due. At least what’s in this bill isn’t exactly the opposite of what the title is. That has happened in this Legislature in the last government.

But at least with this bill, what’s in the bill somewhat represents what’s in the title—as opposed to the fighting fraud bill, where basically they were saying they were going to lower insurance rates, and how they were doing that was not allowing victims of accidents to sue. Actually, the title was misrepresenting the bill. In this case, at least the bill and the title are somewhat along the same vein.

Another issue, a very important one to the people of my riding—when we’re talking about clusters, we have in this province a public transportation cluster. We’ve got Metrolinx, which moves people and which is owned by the people of Ontario. We have the ONTC, which has refurbishment shops which can rebuild cars owned by Metrolinx. Now, that would and could be a cluster that would benefit the people throughout the province. What are the minister and the Premier doing to help that cluster? I dare say, Speaker, not much, if anything at all.

We knew the writing was on the wall when ONTC lost the Metrolinx contract to an out-of-province company. Instead of responding with “Okay, what can we do to get this on the road as they were promised?” instead of saying, “Let’s see if we can get a strategic alliance,” which they were promised with Metrolinx—a strategic alliance is another nice word for cluster. Instead, no—no strategic alliance. Instead, it’s announced that the ONTC shops can refurbish some of the cars on the Polar Bear Express. That is not going to save the ONTC shops.

The ONTC shops and the people who work there are as good—no, they’re better than anyone else in the country.

To make matters worse, shops that can rebuild and refurbish train cars are in extremely high demand right now—extremely high demand to rebuild railcars. If you remember the Lac-Megantic disaster, a lot of those rail cars can’t be replaced quick enough, so they’re having to rebuild them and passenger cars. There are huge contracts out there to rebuild wheels, which you can do at the ONTC shops, which would make extremely good sense for the people of Ontario. Yet this government seems paralyzed to actually make decisions that would benefit the people of northern Ontario, benefit the people of Ontario.

Yes, we stopped the sale of ONTC. We stopped the giveaway of those shops, and now it appears that this government is willing to let them die on the vine when there is a huge demand for their services.

I demand that the Premier actually answer the question: Is there going to be a strategic alliance with Metrolinx, which would benefit all the people of Ontario? Instead of spending time with bills like this and talking about how the Minister of Economic Development could make plans for clusters and should make plans for clusters and may act on those plans, how about this government actually does something with a cluster that they own, that we all own? We own shops that fix railcars, and we own public transportation that uses—guess what—railcars.

It seems like a pretty good fit, and yet while these shops are in huge demand in the rest of North America, in North Bay we’re laying off painters because there’s not enough work, because the government will not give the people the tools they need to actually access that work. That’s wrong.

That’s wrong, and on behalf of the people of northern Ontario, I demand that the government, the minister, the Premier, actually make their plans public, what they need to do, and actually come forth with their promise and provide a mechanism so that the ONTC shops can develop a strategic alliance with Metrolinx and actually benefit all the people of Ontario and actually do what the great title on this bill says.

On another issue within this: Let’s talk about a single regulation that could be impacted with this. I talked about how in Timiskaming–Cochrane, we have a regional agriculture cluster. I’ve listened several times to the Minister of the Environment and Climate Change talk about the effects of climate change in the environment. I have to say that this summer in my riding, we have experienced a summer and a fall that we have never experienced before. I know farmers who have farmed—Roy Schubert, for one, has farmed in my area for 55 years, and he has never left crop in the field.

Yet this fall, it’s estimated that over 50% of the crops in Timiskaming are in the field, and they’re going to stay in the field because there is snow. The people who have crop insurance, hopefully, will be able to make their payments, because we have never experienced having to leave half our crops in the field.

A regulation change that would make a difference in the Crop Insurance Act—I believe we’re going to discuss the Crop Insurance Act in the near future. A small regulation change—for example, a crop like soybeans, which we haven’t grown in Timiskaming for a long time because our weather wasn’t conducive to soybeans, but in the last decade or so, and likely due to climate change, soybeans work in our area. This year, because we’ve had rain all summer, and now snow a month too soon, the soybeans are lost. But because of a regulation that’s across the province, crop insurance won’t release the soybeans until a certain date, even though they know it’s going to be a loss.

Where that impacts the farmers of Timiskaming in a big way is that basically they can’t do their fall tillage until those soybeans are released. In Timiskaming, we have to do fall tillage because of our soil and because in the springtime, fields that are tilled heat up much quicker than fields that aren’t tilled. So if those soybeans aren’t released, a lot of the fall tillage won’t be done. In fact, those farmers will be paying for two years for this problem.

It doesn’t sound like a big issue. But if half your crops are in the field, and not only can’t you get your crops off but you’re not allowed to do your fall tillage in a place where fall tillage is necessary, that regulation needs to be changed. Maybe it has to be more site-specific.

I’m sure they weren’t thinking about that regulation when they were talking about this bill, but that’s the type of regulation that should be changed, and it needs to be changed very quickly. I don’t know if we’re going to get it done; I need to talk to the minister again about it. But it’s things like that. We have to be much more responsive.

I hear the other side talk a lot about climate change. Well, it’s time to actually look at the regulations, and not just look at the big picture but look at the small regulations that actually are impacting people now. That’s one that would make a big difference for the people in my riding.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Rick Nicholls): Comments and questions?

Mrs. Marie-France Lalonde: First, I would like to thank the member from Timiskaming–Cochrane for his great words on the bill. It gives me great pleasure to speak on this bill, because my husband and I were business owners, and my husband still is, actually. I used to manage a retirement residence in my previous life, before having the great chance of being elected in this House.

When I think about this bill and everything that we were able to accomplish for small businesses like mine, when I used to own and operate this retirement residence, it is extraordinary. We have been able to remove over 80,000—and I want to reiterate it to the members—80,000 unnecessary burdens for small businesses. This has helped me, as a business owner, be more efficient and cost-effective in putting the resources in my business where they should be.

Mr. Speaker, I think the bill is about partnership, and we haven’t heard this very much. We’ve partnered, and we want to partner, with the businesses.

I look at my husband. He’s an operator of a small restaurant, and he comes home and he has to do a lot of paperwork. It takes hours of his time. By having this bill passed, and everything that we’re moving towards—the online system—I look at myself, and the WSIB. If I had an injured worker, because of this bill and everything we’ve moved forward, I was able, with a phone call or the online version, to just say that my worker did not need to take time off. This is cost-efficient, and for a business and a small business owner, this means a lot.

For me, I’m glad to hear that the third opposition—the member will be supporting our bill, because we need to work in partnership.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Rick Nicholls): Further questions and comments.

Mr. Jeff Yurek: Thank you very much, Speaker, and good morning to you. It’s good to see you this morning. I’m pleased to comment a little bit on this bill and thank the member from Timiskaming–Cochrane for his great insight over the last 20 minutes.

My concern in the bill is with regard to the red tape portion when, really, this is a bill to study red tape, at the end of the day, and not really act upon it. This government, for the last three years that I’ve been here, has had ample opportunity to start fixing red tape throughout this province.

I’ll take this story back to my own riding, where Railway City Brewing Co., a craft beer operation that started on its own in downtown St. Thomas, Ontario, has seen tremendous growth with their beers. Dead Elephant Ale, for instance, is an excellent beer. I really like the Canada Southern Draft; it’s my favourite from their products. They also make a wheat beer; I always call it the Woody Traveller, but I always get it wrong. It’s an amazing beer for the summer. At Christmas, of course, they always come up with their Christmas cranberry beer, which has actually taken the Canada Southern Draft and thrown some cranberries in it. It makes it really excellent.

Back to my point on red tape: The craft beer industry in this province is overburdened by red tape, and it’s basically with regard to the silly rules that this government fails to address. Two of them that I’ll hit on—number one is transporting their beer. There’s the rule and the regulations, the red tape, that won’t allow craft beer companies to share transportation with other craft beer companies. They have to purchase their own truck or rent their own truck to take their beer to, say, the LCBO. The LCBO says, “No, you can’t have more than one craft beer on the truck.” I think that’s utterly ridiculous.

For a government that’s so pro-small business, you’d think that would be an easy fix that could have been fixed three years ago. However, they keep that regulation, that red tape, on the books so that the expense ever increases.

The other thing they don’t tackle is cross-selling between craft breweries. I think that would be an excellent way for craft breweries to grow. If, per se, Bell’s can sell Railway City or vice versa, that would increase the amount of craft beer throughout the province without costing the government a dime. All they have to do is take their pen out and scratch out those silly regulations.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Rick Nicholls): Further questions and comments.

Mr. Taras Natyshak: I’m pleased to add some comments to the comments by my colleague from Timiskaming–Cochrane on this bill, the Better Business Climate Act.

The bill prescribes in

schedule 1 that the Burden Reduction Reporting Act be enacted, “which requires the Minister of Economic Development, Employment and Infrastructure to publish an annual report with respect to actions taken by the government of Ontario” to reduce regulatory burdens. I guess that’s a good thing. We’d like to know exactly what actions are taken on behalf of the government to address or, at the very least, acknowledge some of the low-hanging fruit when it comes to regulatory burdens in our small, medium and even large-sized businesses in the province of Ontario. That’s pretty reasonable.

“Schedule 2 enacts the Partnerships for Jobs and Growth Act, 2014, which states that the Minister of Economic Development, Employment and Infrastructure may”—as my colleague so clearly pointed out—“prepare plans with respect to the development of clusters.” So they may do something, maybe. Maybe, they may do something.

I guess that’s where we have some issues with the clarity of the bill or the vagaries that are built into the bill. One of those “mays” is: What is it, in fact, that they will be doing? We know that there are regulatory burdens that exist within all ministries and all sectors. Who, indeed, will be in charge of initiating or championing the review of those burdens? Then, what measures will be needed within those ministries to actually do something about those burdens? It’s incredibly complex. We know that regulatory burden is certainly something that the business community has been talking about for quite some time.

We need to look at a whole suite of issues ranging from the fact that we have people who—income inequality. Business needs customers. That was clearly articulated in a TD report just recently released. Let’s look at all of the tools that are available in this Legislature and try to do something constructive and proactive.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Rick Nicholls): Further questions and comments.

Mr. Mike Colle: I was listening to the member from Timiskaming–Cochrane, and he asked some of the same questions I asked about this bill. What’s this bill about? I know he was quite interested in the title. I wasn’t that interested in the title, but what I found out about it is that essentially what it’s doing is responding to a request from the Canadian Federation of Independent Business, the Toronto Board of Trade and the Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters association. What they wanted was a reporting mechanism; they said, “You say you’re reducing red tape.

You can say you’re doing it, but show us.” So now they’re going to be reporting what they’re eliminating. It’s a reporting mechanism. It’s the same thing they do in Alberta and BC. That’s the first part of it.

The second part of it is basically—I think you’ve raised a good question: What comes first, the chicken or the egg? The cluster by itself, or does government create clusters? And I think on that part, what this bill is going to try to do is try to give the minister a bit more power to encourage and essentially facilitate cluster building and enhance what they’ve already done or what they’re going to do. You said you’ve got an agricultural service cluster in Temiskaming Shores. I think there are these clusters all over the province these days.

So what can the government really do to ensure that these clusters get the connection with government that they need, rather than creating them by themselves? It’s some kind of help, facilitation of something that’s already going on. Hopefully, by clearing this up to a certain extent, there will be a better connection between government and clusters so they can get a bit of help from the government as they expand, as they service people in the area. That’s my understanding of it, anyway.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Rick Nicholls): Back to the original debater, the member from Timiskaming–Cochrane, for his final wrap-up.

Mr. John Vanthof: I would like to thank the members from Ottawa–Orléans, from Elgin–Middlesex–London, from Essex and from Eglinton–Lawrence.

To the member from Ottawa–Orléans: She made a point of talking about all the things that this government has done or that she thinks this government has done. She may have a point on some of them. But specifically this bill doesn’t necessarily move that along.

The member from Elgin–Middlesex–London pointed out some concrete things that he feels could be done right now, and he has a point. This bill doesn’t really move that along.

I appreciate what the member from Essex said, but I’d like to focus on what the member from Eglinton–Lawrence said. He did explain the purpose, in his mind, what the bill is about. I somewhat agree, but there’s nothing in here that really needs a bill. You don’t need a law to create a report, and that’s all that you’re really doing here—or to help along clusters.

At the end of the day what this bill—and we should talk about this more in the House. The minister is given various regulation-making powers with respect to the plans. So we can talk about the title and we can talk about the bill, but basically it’s the minister who makes the decisions. That’s a big problem with this Legislature. I’ve learned, and hopefully the people in the back row on the other side will learn, that at the end of the day, as long as we keep doing this, this House never gets to review these regulations, never gets to find the good ones or the bad ones. At the end of the day, it’s the minister. So all we’re doing is debating the title.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Rick Nicholls): Further debate?

Mr. Ernie Hardeman: I rise to speak to Bill 7,

An Act to enact the Burden Reduction Reporting Act, 2014 and the Partnerships for Jobs and Growth Act, 2014. I just want to point out the word “reduction” in the title. My good friend the previous speaker mentioned that this was a very good title, a very nice title, but the word “reduction” doesn’t need to appear in the title of the act because there is absolutely nothing in this bill that’s going to reduce red tape.

It was also mentioned earlier that what we need to do for business in the province is to do a report so they can see it, because they don’t really believe that red tape is being reduced. In my notes we’ll be speaking a little bit about that. The fact is that I think the government would be much better served, and the people of Ontario would be much better served, if the people could actually see the red tape that’s being reduced. You shouldn’t have to report at the end of the year, “Look what we’ve done.” The business should be able to realize that there’s less red tape that they are having to deal with.

In the first

schedule of the act, it would require the minister to report annually on regulatory burdens and red tape—they would have to say how many they reduced annually—but there’s also a

section of the act that identifies what red tape is. The minister first gets to decide whether it’s red tape before he decides whether they’re going to report on whether it has been reduced or not. In fact, you could say, “We don’t have any red tape so obviously there’s not much to report.”

We understand that red tape is not only frustrating for our businesses, taxpayers and municipalities, but that there’s a real cost in terms of time, productivity and lost opportunity. In some cases, businesses are forced to hire experts just to deal with the red tape. In fact, it’s estimated that red tape burdens cost businesses in this province over $11 billion a year in productivity.

As one small-business owner said, “We are constantly spending more and more time updating manuals, filling out paperwork and participating in government programs trying to make sure that all our programs and regulations are kept up to date and current. It has almost become a full-time job to manage those things.”

This government has now been in power for 11 years, and for most of those they have been agreeing that red tape is a problem. In fact, in 2008—six years ago—they launched the Open for Business initiative, but today red tape is still one of the biggest problems we hear about from the businesses in Ontario.

In a Canadian Federation of Independent Business survey from earlier this year, over one-third of its members found that the cost of regulatory compliance is so burdensome that they would not have gone into business if they had known about the actual impact of government regulations. CFIB Ontario’s vice president said, “CFIB estimates that government red tape costs Ontario businesses a staggering $11 billion a year, making it the second-highest small business concern, after taxes.”

Every year I do a survey of Oxford businesses. It gives me an opportunity to hear directly from them about the challenges they’re facing. This year, 73% of respondents said that red tape has increased over the last four years, which is slightly higher than they reported in the last survey. Again, that comes to the part about reporting it: Maybe it would be helpful, and then even the government would see that they’re not reducing it.

It’s clear that this government’s efforts to address the problems aren’t working. I recently heard from one small business person in my riding who said, “While there are a number of reasons we have chosen to exit the business, one of the main ones was the endless barrage of ‘compliance’ to regulations, and the documentation required for those requirements. The continual increase in the size of government just leads to more regulation, which in turn continues to make it less possible for small businesses to survive in this province and country.”

I would like to believe that publicly reporting the red tape burden and the government’s progress will make a difference, but in 2012 this minister launched a consultation with small businesses and at the end he issued a report that found that, “Common themes began to emerge: complicated and burdensome application processes; outdated requirements; lack of clarity and understanding of compliance requirements; complaints related to Workplace Safety and Insurance Board (WSIB); and support for one-window access to programs and information.”

Two years later, red tape is still the biggest issue facing our businesses, our non-profit organizations, and our municipalities.

I hope that by legislating the requirement to report annually we will see more attention on the impact of these burdens, but passing legislation can only do so much. Last year, the Long-Term Affordable Housing Strategy produced by the Ministry of Municipal Affairs and Housing says that one of the provincial responsibilities is to produce an annual report on province-wide programs, but four years later we have not yet seen a single report.

Several weeks ago we marked the one-year anniversary of the Local Food Act being passed by this Legislature. The legislation contained a number of requirements for the government to complete within one year, such as creating targets for access to local food, local food procurement and food literacy, as well as a requirement for an annual report on local food. This government avoided the requirements simply by not proclaiming those sections. In fact, after a year, some sections of the Local Food Act still haven’t been proclaimed.

It has become a frequent occurrence for annual reports to arrive late. Often, we receive two or three annual reports from an organization at the same time. Sometimes, the government seems to just ignore the requirement for annual reports. For instance, Ontario Place hasn’t submitted an annual report since 2010. As we debate the future of that property, wouldn’t it be useful for everyone to be able to see the report from its last year of operation?

When the Minister of Tourism appeared at the estimates a few months ago, he was also unable to explain why the annual reports of the Metro Toronto Convention Centre for 2011 and 2012 hadn’t been tabled, even though it is a legislative requirement.

According to the deputy minister, the 2012 and 2013 annual reports from all 16 of the agencies under their ministry that are required to table them were in progress. That means, in spite of the legislative requirement for these reports, 17 months after fiscal year-end, they still hadn’t been tabled.

I hope that this time, the government will follow through, that they will report back each year as required, and that they will provide an honest assessment of the burden facing Ontarians. But with all that, Mr. Speaker, I have to question it.

Another one of my concerns is the definition of the burden, and I think this is very important. The minister has to report “a cost that may be measured in terms of money, time or resources and is considered”—and this is important—“by the minister in consultation with other members of the government of Ontario to be unnecessary to achieve the purpose of the statutory, regulatory, procedural, administrative or other requirement that creates the cost....”

I’m sure everybody that was bothered by the regulations in the breweries—

Interjection: The craft breweries.

Mr. Ernie Hardeman: —the craft breweries will be very impressed with that definition, because it will do absolutely nothing to deal with the problems they’re facing with their red tape.

This means that the government doesn’t have to report paperwork or regulatory requirements if they simply deem them necessary. Every regulation was considered necessary by some person at some point in time. This approach doesn’t take into account the impact of these requirements on business. It doesn’t force the government to look at how much time and productivity they are costing, and it doesn’t push the government to reduce the overall burden.

As the Ontario Chamber of Commerce stated in their report Emerging Stronger—and incidentally, they issue the report each year—“The cumulative regulatory burden on business should be reduced to improve Ontario’s business climate.”

As the Ontario Restaurant, Hotel and Motel Association said, “There are specific regulations in place that need attention but the overall consensus of industry operators is about the whole package of well-intended regulations that need to be there but create nightmares in the amount of paperwork and supportive documentation requirements.

“Many well-intended regulations demand an abundance of documented policies and posters on the walls, another ‘binder’ on the shelf and a significant amount of time and effort into paperwork completion.”

This definition of “burden” contained in this bill is open to much

interpretation, which means that there could be efforts to reduce the red tape burdens reported which don’t actually reduce the impact of regulations on Ontario.

Several years ago, I obtained an internal memo from the Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs. It was advice to civil servants on how to implement the Open for Business initiative. That memo recommended removing the duplication between regulations, which sounds good, except that it says, “Numerous regulations detail processes and requirements related to tribunals. Rather than having those requirements within each regulation, include them within a single regulation and then reference those requirements.”

That would reduce the number of regulations that the government has to report, but it doesn’t do anything to reduce the burden to Ontarians’ businesses.

The memo went on to recommend moving requirements to forms, because “Forms were not included in the count, per Open for Business. Rather than stating within a regulation that a stakeholder must submit his name, address and phone number (three requirements), simply state that the stakeholder must complete the form (one requirement). That form could then require the name, address and phone number.”

It also recommends changing the

definitions to reduce the burden count. “For instance, if a regulation required ‘sheep, cattle and goats to be shaved and branded,’ we would count six burdens, based on the multiplier of two requirements on three types of livestock. However, if the regulation stated that ‘livestock must be shaved and branded,’ it would count as two requirements; but presumably, in this scenario, livestock would be defined within the definition

section as being sheep, cattle and goats.” So, in fact, it changed absolutely nothing.

The memo recommends tricks like changing the wording from requiring an annual report to be prepared and submitted, which would be two burdens, to requiring the annual report to be submitted, which only counts as one burden, or moving the requirements into commission regulations, which the government decided not to include in the burden count.

I raised that memo in this Legislature, and the only response from the minister was to issue an internal memo to staff, warning them not to share internal information. There was no attempt to address the fact that people were deliberately trying to mislead the public into thinking that the regulatory burden had been reduced.

When we surveyed Ontario’s farmers, 77.2% of respondents said that red tape is increasing. In fact, they reported that, on average, Ontario farmers spend 154.2 hours a year just filling out government forms, the equivalent of about four standard 40-hour work weeks.

In response to the survey, a farmer from the Golden Horseshoe said, “Costs of all businesses in Ontario is too high due to overregulation and red tape. A reckoning will have to come for Ontario to stay competitive at all.”

When the government boasts about how many burdens they have reduced, we have to ask ourselves how many were just wording changes or moving the burden from one place to another.

If this is an example of how seriously the government took their effort to cut red tape, we shouldn’t be surprised that it is still a significant problem. And if they are taking that same approach with this new act, the results won’t be much better.

This red tape burden not only impacts business; it also impacts municipalities across Ontario. Every regulation and reporting requirement takes time for municipalities to fulfill. Some require significant expenditures to comply with the new regulations and legislation. While some of these burdens are necessary, it is still important to measure the overall burden they place on municipalities.

As the Rural Ontario Municipal Association—another organization that puts out reports—said in their report A Voice for Rural and Northern Ontario, “A frequent challenge faced by rural and northern municipalities is overregulation. Often when new policies are released, there are a number of new requirements attached, from administrative requirements to new responsibilities.

While large urban municipalities also object to these additions, these municipalities are often in a position where they are able to comply (at a cost to the taxpayer),” of course. “Per capita costs in most rural and northern areas are higher than those in urban communities as a result of smaller populations. As a result, rural and northern municipalities do not have the capacity, or the tax base, to continue to absorb new costs.”

They also explained the difficulty that some of these smaller municipalities have in accessing provincial programs. It says, “The obstacle is in ensuring that those communities who could truly benefit from the programs are able to apply. Reducing the ‘red tape’ and the burden of eligibility and application procedures of current and future programs of interest for rural communities and municipalities could dramatically increase the functionality and uptake of these programs.”

Just last week, we heard about a red tape burden that the province is putting on municipalities who are applying for assistance to help with the costs they had incurred because of last year’s ice storm. The Ministry of Municipal Affairs and Housing is requiring municipal staff to complete a two-hour seminar on how to fill out the paperwork before they can submit it. The seminar isn’t even put on by the ministry staff; they have hired LandLink Consulting to do it for them.

Mr. Speaker, this isn’t the first round of paperwork that they’ve done for that same project. Some municipalities are reporting this is now the third round of paperwork they are being required to submit. In fact, in their frequently asked questions on the program, the Ministry of Municipal Affairs and Housing said, “Municipalities and conservation authorities will likely need to devote a significant amount of time in assembling their claims.”

These forms and guidelines aren’t even online. Municipalities are required to contact a local municipal affairs office to obtain them. Mr. Speaker, that doesn’t show any desire to reduce red tape or to respect the limited resources of our municipalities.

The other part of this act is that it would allow the government to create clusters. As the minister said in his leadoff, the development and success of these clusters has been driven by the private sector, which makes it concerning that the government is giving themselves more ability to create regulation surrounding the clusters. They’re already being built by the private sector; now the government says, “There go my people.

I better run so I can lead them.” While I realize the government’s intentions are good, I hope they will recognize that often the key to economic success is to get out of the way of the private sector. I hope that they will not use this regulation-making ability to create more red tape or implement restrictions that will end up causing new challenges and burdens for our businesses.

Our critic for economic development, employment and infrastructure said in his leadoff that we will be supporting this bill. It may have sounded like I wasn’t going to but, yes, I will be supporting this bill. But again, as was said in the earlier comments, because of its nice title and the fact that—what do they say? Hope springs eternal? I hope that at the end of this, the government will finally realize that if they go to this much trouble to introduce a bill that does nothing but obligate them to do a report, they will actually come through and do that report.

We have pushed this government for years to make a meaningful reduction to the burdens placed on our businesses, our municipalities and our taxpayers. We are pleased to see them take this step, and we’ll be watching to ensure that they follow through. Again, I say that the act is to create a report, but I would hope, as they’re creating it and as they decide what a burden is, that they turn around and actually eliminate that burden, rather than just tell us that it’s there and they’ll do that next year.

I just want to end with this: Many years ago there was a provincial election, and I remember that one of the parties—the better of the parties, in my opinion—said, “We’re going to reduce red tape and we’re going to appoint a person, a Red Tape Commission”—I believe the former member from London West, Mr. Wood, was the chair of the Red Tape Commission—“to look at finding the redundant and unproductive regulations or legislation and remove them.”

Not to be outdone, the other party came up with, “We are going to reduce 50% of the red tape.” I remember going door to door in my riding and saying, “Now, think about this for a minute: Red tape is totally redundant and useless legislation that is not accomplishing anything of benefit. If you know how much there is, why would you only reduce 50% of it?” I think that’s really the problem that we’re seeing here: that they’re looking at reporting, but are they actually looking at reducing it to benefit our businesses?

Going back to the start of the presentation—I think somewhere here I have a copy of the bill. It’s

An Act to enact the Burden Reduction Reporting Act, 2014 and the Partnerships for Jobs and Growth Act. I do hope that if they move forward on the reporting and also look at reducing the red tape, they actually may be able to assist in the partnership to help create jobs in Ontario, because the way they’re doing it now, it isn’t working.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Rick Nicholls): Further questions and comments?

Ms. Jennifer K. French: I’m pleased to address the comments made by my colleague from Oxford and also to add more to what we heard earlier from the member from Timiskaming–Cochrane speaking on Bill 7,

An Act to enact the Burden Reduction Reporting Act, 2014 and the Partnerships for Jobs and Growth Act, 2014.

Burden reduction sounds good. Partnership sounds good. However, this bill addresses clusters, regions of activity where related businesses work together to thrive. We know that when businesses do well, communities do well; people do well. Coming from Oshawa, of course we have a famous cluster. Our most famous would be our automotive cluster. We’ve seen through the years how a cluster can become a part of that community. It’s the government’s role to help our businesses grow and reduce obstacles—fairly reduce obstacles—and hurdles. I think that’s a good thing.

While we’re at it, the government could also consistently encourage a climate of fairness to workers in terms of wages, in terms of training, in terms of health and safety or paid internships—and education, while we’re at it. It does take more, though, than a bill to convince anyone, so this government needs to philosophically believe in opportunities for growth, philosophically believe in opportunities for growth of clusters, and community growth as well.

We need a climate where businesses can flourish and collaborate. We need a climate that businesses are attracted to. We would like to see a resurgence of faith in Oshawa and encouragement for businesses. Government needs to support the development of our regional clusters, needs to listen to key stakeholders, and reducing unnecessary government regulations that can deter businesses from coming to Ontario sounds like a step in the right direction.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Rick Nicholls): I’d like to thank the member from Oshawa.

Further questions and comments?

Mr. Mike Colle: I was interested in listening to my colleague from Oxford talk about the challenges that people face with regulation etc. I think he made some very legitimate references about the reality that people face, especially in an agricultural community.

I just want to say that what the bill itself tries to do is to essentially put some kind of accountability in this attempt to reduce regulation and eliminate so-called red tape, because as governments can say they’re going to reduce this, this is again a request from the Canadian Federation of Independent Business and the Toronto Board of Trade, saying, “Listen, we want accountability.” So that’s what this act does on that red tape aspect.

The second thing, in terms of clusters, is that clusters sometimes come about organically, but sometimes they need help from government. I know I have a very successful clothing manufacturing cluster in my riding. We manufacture one of the best winter coats you can buy anywhere in the world, and that’s manufactured by Canada Goose. Canada Goose even sells winter coats to China; they sell winter coats to 50 different countries. They manufacture them in Ontario, in Toronto, with about 350 people, and they’re going to expand to 500 people, because it’s such a good-quality, Canadian-made coat.

So if you’re going to buy a coat for Christmas, buy a Canadian-made coat; don’t buy those cheap imports. I’ll give you a reference; you can come and buy a Canada Goose coat. It’s expensive, but they’re good quality. So don’t go to Walmart and buy your coat; buy one locally, made in Chatham–Kent, made in Timiskaming, made in Oxford.

That’s what we’re trying to improve with this cluster support in this bill.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Rick Nicholls): I’d like to thank the member from Eglinton–Lawrence.

Further questions and comments? The member from Haliburton–Kawartha Lakes–Brock.

Ms. Laurie Scott: Very good, Mr. Speaker. Thank you very much.

It’s always an honour to follow the member from Oxford and his insight. He’s been in the Legislature for a few more years than I have is and has done a lot of work, especially in the agricultural sector and municipal affairs before, and now municipal affairs critic.

He mentioned the perfect examples of what we experience in our ridings, especially in the agricultural sector. We also went out and did business surveys, and the member came and visited, in Haliburton–Kawartha Lakes–Brock, Sunderland Co-op, a perfect example of the redundancies that the agriculture community have to fill out in their forms, in their regulations. It’s time-consuming. He mentioned $11 billion lost in productivity because of red tape. It’s the second-highest concern of small businesses across the province, not just in agriculture.

He mentioned in detail the forms that were to be filled out and how it actually misled the public in saying, “We have reduced red tape, we reduced the forms, we reduced regulation,” where in fact it had not; it increased it. His survey said that 77.2%, I believe, of respondents from the agricultural community said red tape has increased, at an average cost of 154.2 hours per year in paperwork, which is a loss of doing what they do best: producing the quality food that we want to eat, and growing their businesses.

The CFIB, the Ontario Chamber of Commerce—I mean, the message has been consistent: The cost of doing business in Ontario is too high to stay competitive.

I debated this Bill 7 yesterday. Really, it’s “Maybe we’ll do something, but we’ll put it out there with a good title and hope it all works out in the end.” Really, Mr. Speaker, we don’t have confidence that it will.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Rick Nicholls): Further questions and comments?

Mrs. Lisa Gretzky: I’m pleased to stand and add my comments to those of the member from Oxford and also my colleague from Timiskaming–Cochrane.

As he pointed out, this bill has a really strong title, but it’s not necessarily a strong bill. The bill states that the minister may take action, but there is no commitment to actually taking action. It suggests that the government may do something that they already do. We’re saying that we’re giving them power to do something that they already have the power to do, so I’m not quite sure of the point of introducing a bill.

The bill speaks to clusters, which is a good thing. However, in my riding of Windsor West, people want to hear about and also see action around our automotive and manufacturing clusters.

We welcome new ideas, we welcome new technologies, and we certainly welcome new businesses. But equally important to my riding and the neighbouring ridings of Windsor–Tecumseh and also Essex are the automotive and the manufacturing sectors. As the member from Oshawa had pointed out, it’s important to her riding as well, and I’m sure that it’s equally important to ridings all over Ontario.

If the government is going to bring forth bills to create a better business climate, then they should be developing bills that actually require action and not just suggest that it may happen or that they’re going to write reports about it.

I believe that this bill actually adds to the red tape. Again, we’re talking about a bill that’s giving the government the ability to do something they already do, so it’s kind of a redundant bill.

As I pointed out, I believe that there needs to be a strong plan around not only creating a better business climate but attracting businesses to my riding and ridings all across Ontario.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Rick Nicholls): Now we’ll go back to the member from Oxford for his final wrap-up.

Mr. Ernie Hardeman: I want to thank the members from Oshawa, Eglinton–Lawrence, Haliburton–Kawartha Lakes–Brock, and Windsor West for their comments.

I just wanted to add a couple of comments. The member from Eglinton–Lawrence mentioned, and I agree with him, that it’s good to look at reporting and so forth. But I do believe, and I stand to be corrected, that the Open for Business legislation that went through this House a number of years ago in fact required each individual minister to report as to how they were making out.

The main part that I was a little concerned with is the working—and he said the government needs to help the private sector build these clusters, and I totally agree, but the minister says that the private sector is already doing it. Then, when I look at the explanatory note—and I think that’s the important part, Mr. Speaker—in the

schedule it states that “the Minister of Economic Development, Employment and Infrastructure may prepare plans with respect to the development of clusters.” These are the minister’s plans.

“As part of the preparation of a plan, the minister must consult, as he or she considers advisable, with persons or entities that have an interest in the development of the cluster.” In that part, it doesn’t even say he has to talk to anyone. He is making the plan.

“The minister is required to review the plan”—this is the same plan—“and make public a report with respect to the results of the review. The minister is given various regulation-making powers with respect to the plans.”

It was mentioned by the last speaker, from Windsor, in fact, that this is nothing but red tape. I mean, gosh, the minister gets to make a plan and to talk to whoever he wishes to talk to, or no one. Then he gets to review his plan and then he gets to report it to the people of Ontario: “I have prepared a plan and I reviewed it. It was the best plan that ever existed. Now here it is”—end of story.

I think that’s red tape if I ever saw it.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Rick Nicholls): Further debate.

Mr. Jagmeet Singh: I would love to add my voice to the debate. We are debating Bill 7,

An Act to enact the Burden Reduction Reporting Act, 2014 and the Partnerships for Jobs and Growth Act, 2014.

Essentially, this bill has two parts to it, two sections.

Part 1 talks about reporting on regulatory burden reduction—so red tape reduction, burden reduction, regulation reduction.

Part 2 talks about clusters.

I think it’s important to understand what a cluster is, in a simple term. Clusters are basically—in a particular geographic area, in a particular region, there are similar businesses and they work together. There is a synergy between these businesses. So the bill has two components: talking about regulations and talking about, in certain regions, certain areas, where there are similar businesses that work together—how do you promote them? Okay. That’s what the bill purports to do.

The bill has an okay name. It’s somewhat factual to what it is actually going to do.

Here is the issue: There’s not anything really that is overly opposable in this bill, but there’s not really anything very supportable in this bill. The reason why I say this is because everything in this bill—everything—can be done already without a bill. There is nothing in this piece of legislation that you actually need legislation to be able to do. Let me clarify: The minister can currently report—any ministry can report on anything they want, anytime they want. So you don’t need a bill to be able to report on anything. You want to report on the steps you are taking to help the environment. You can report.

Tell us. Why not? You want to take some steps to improve the employment standards or employment regulations or streamline them. You can report that. There is nothing barring you from doing that.

This bill talks about the steps you are going to take to report on steps you’re going to take to reduce regulations. You can do that. I don’t think you need a bill to do that. I’m actually very certain you don’t need a bill to do that. I’ll give some of my suggestions in terms of the direction you should go. But let’s just be very clear: There is absolutely nothing—and I’ve reviewed this quite thoroughly. There are no additional powers in this bill that you don’t already have through regulation-making authority. You already have, as a government—any government would have—significant regulation-making authority. So you are not increasing that. There is nothing really significant in

schedule 1, or

schedule 2 for that matter, but let’s focus on

schedule 1.

Before I continue too far, I’m sharing my time with the member from London West. Please make note of that. Thank you so much, kindly.

There are certain regulations that we absolutely need. So when we talk about streamlining the process for a business to be successful, we absolutely support that. We support businesses doing well. We know that businesses have often a lot of difficulty navigating all the different rules and regulations that do apply to them, and that’s something that we need to help businesses with.

I also ran my own law practice, and I know that it’s important to make sure that businesses are able to move and navigate the different laws and different regulations that exist. We need to encourage businesses by making it easier for them to be able to set up and to develop and to flourish.

But that being said, we absolutely need to be very vigilant around two areas where regulations are very, very crucial and important. Where it comes to the environment, we need to make sure that we properly consult with experts in the field to make sure that our regulations around environmental standards are maintained and protected. And employment standards—we need to maintain appropriate employment standards to ensure that people in Ontario are protected and that in their workplace they are safe and they are secure. So those are two areas where it is absolutely crucial to have regulations.

We need to make sure that we’re doing the right things in terms of the environment and we’re doing the right things in terms of our people. Those are two areas where we certainly want to see proper, enforced and thoughtful regulations. But, in general, of course, if there are areas that are redundant, if there are areas that are non-essential, if there are areas that are putting an extra burden on businesses that aren’t improving the environment and aren’t improving employment standards—and why are they there in the first place—we absolutely support streamlining those.

With respect to the second schedule, it talks about clusters. “Clusters” is simplified terminology for geographically similar businesses concentrated in an area. Obviously, when clusters are successful, that’s a great thing for our economy, and it’s great for a particular region. Some of my colleagues spoke about their particular regions. It’s great to have the automotive sector in southwestern Ontario, and the fact that there are surrounding businesses that support each other, that work together, whether it’s different parts or different manufacturers working with the automotive industry to build a cluster base—and it’s a great source of employment.

What is the government going to do, though? The bill’s quite interesting. It talks about what kind of ideas should be in the plan; it talks about the steps they’re going to take to prepare a plan; if they don’t want to go ahead with the plan, it talks about how to stop the plan; and it talks about reviewing the plan. But it doesn’t actually have a plan; it’s all the steps around an actual plan. So we’re not voting on a plan. They might say, “To create a cluster, we need to invest in uranium. That’s our plan to create clusters.” There might be no connection with their plan and the actual cluster.

They can say anything. The plan is not here. We’re not voting on any plan. We’re voting on what should maybe be in a plan. We’re voting on how they can prepare that. We’re voting on amendments, how you can change that plan, how it could be reviewed or how it could be stopped. But there isn’t a plan here; there isn’t a strategy here.

A number of folks have talked about a particular strategy on developing clusters, that this is a specific way that government can actually encourage a cluster. There are ways. There are a number of factors that go into promoting a particular sector. For example, right now we see a lot of start-up companies in the technology field. We had a recent event in Toronto, which was a phenomenal event. It was a Start-up Open House. They had all the start-ups in Toronto basically open their doors to the public. We had phenomenal start-ups doing great work around new, innovative bicycles.

We had start-ups doing work around various web-based applications, coming up with new apps. We had some really amazing start-ups. They’re all clustered together around certain parts of the city. I’ll give you some examples of what we can actually implement to help these out.

One thing that cluster-type businesses could benefit from is infrastructure. If we invested in good infrastructure to help these businesses move around, to help them move their services around, to help them physically get around, to help them move their products around, that would be a plan. If there was a specific plan saying, “We need to invest in increasing investments in infrastructure with a view to supporting certain clustered businesses or certain regions that already have existing businesses that need to move around quickly”—

Interjection.

Mr. Jagmeet Singh: That’s not in this plan, though. It doesn’t say, “We will implement an increase in funding for infrastructure in this particular region.” It just vaguely talks about steps to come up with a plan, then to review this plan and then to discuss how to end this plan. It’s odd. There’s nothing wrong with it, but there’s nothing right with it either. You can just do this anyways. It speaks to what I’ve brought up before: What are the priorities of this government?

When we have a number of issues that are pressing, that are of great concern, why bring forward a bill that has so little in it, that doesn’t actually increase the powers of the government already? They don’t provide new powers. You already can report. You can already take steps to improve businesses that are clustering. There’s actually nothing innovative in this bill. There’s nothing new in this bill. There’s nothing that gives additional powers that don’t already exist in this bill.

There are other bills, though, that I think we need. For example, the anti-SLAPP legislation was something crucial. That was something that would encourage democracy. That bill was not brought forth. Why is this government not prioritizing democracy? The fact that people need to voice their concerns, voice their dissent—and folks who do so are being hit with strategic lawsuits that discourage their public participation. Why didn’t that bill come forward instead of this bill which, again, sounds great, but doesn’t provide anything of substance, doesn’t provide anything new?

I note that we’re close to the time, so I’m happy to end my comments here and pick them up afterwards.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Rick Nicholls): I’d like to thank the member from Bramalea–Gore–Malton. It’s also duly noted that you were sharing your time with the member from Windsor West. So when debate resumes, I would assume it will be with—

Ms. Peggy Sattler: The member from London West.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Rick Nicholls): Sorry, London West. Forgive me on that.

Second reading debate deemed adjourned.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Rick Nicholls): Since it is now 10:15, this House will recess until 10:30.

The House recessed from 1015 to 1030.

Wearing of scarves

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The Minister of Community and Social Services on a point of order.

Ms. Helena Jaczek: Mr. Speaker, I believe you will find that we have unanimous consent for members to wear purple scarves in recognition of the United Nations International Day for the Elimination of Violence against Women.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The Minister of Community and Social Services is seeking unanimous consent to wear the scarves. Do we agree? Agreed.

Wearing of ribbons

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The Minister of Children and Youth Services on a point of order.

Hon. Tracy MacCharles: Good morning, Speaker. I believe you will find we also have unanimous consent to wear white ribbons in the House. Today is the International Day for the Elimination of Violence against Women, as designated by the United Nations. It’s also the first day of 16 days of activism against gender violence. In recognition of this day, we have available to MPPs white ribbons, an international symbol and a pledge to end violence against women.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The Minister of Children and Youth Services and minister responsible for women’s issues is seeking unanimous consent to wear the ribbon. Do we agree? Agreed. Thank you.

It is now time for introductions.

Introduction of Visitors

Mr. Ernie Hardeman: I want to introduce page captain Joshua Liao. He has some family here today: his mother, Michele Curry; his father, Dr. Liang Liao; his stepmother, Marlene Buwalda-Liao; and his grandmother, Ching Tzu Liao. They will be in the gallery later and we thank them very much on behalf of Norm Miller, my colleague from the riding of Parry Sound–Muskoka, who wasn’t able to be here.

Hon. Reza Moridi: Please help me welcome the presidents and the board chairs of Ontario’s 24 colleges to the Ontario Legislature. They’re going to have an event this afternoon from 5:30 to 7:30 in rooms 228 and 230. I invite and encourage all members to participate in this wonderful event. There will be a musical performance, performed by the students of our great colleges in Ontario. Please join me in welcoming the presidents and the board chairs.

Mr. Randy Hillier: It’s my pleasure to welcome some wonderful people from my riding and from eastern Ontario. They’re representing the Ontario Real Estate Association and they are here to be entertained at question period this morning. We have Paul Martin, Christianne Newton and Lisa Cyr-Auld joining us today.

Hon. Tracy MacCharles: It’s my pleasure to welcome Don Lovisa. He’s the president of Durham College. It’s wonderful to have you here at Queen’s Park today.

Mr. Bob Delaney: On behalf of the member for Brampton West, I’m pleased to introduce in the public gallery this morning Mr. Rodney Vis, who is the father of page Tyler Vis. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

Mr. Lou Rinaldi: It’s a great pleasure to welcome, in the east gallery, from Loyalist College, Maureen Piercy, president, and Brian Smith, the chair. Welcome.

Mr. Peter Z. Milczyn: I’d like to welcome the family of page captain Claudia Velimirovic: her mother, Daphne Velimirovic; her father, George Velimirovic; her sister, Julia Velimirovic; and her brother, Nicholas Velimirovic. They are in the members’ gallery.

I also want to welcome the grade 10 class from Bishop Allen Academy in Etobicoke–Lakeshore.

Mr. Jeff Yurek: I saw coming in today Peter Devlin, president of Fanshawe College in London. Welcome, Peter, to the Legislature today.

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: I would like to welcome Lorne Rachlis, who is a member of my community in Ottawa Centre and also the former director of education of the Ottawa-Carleton District School Board, and his son, Joshua Rachlis, who are with us here today. Thank you and welcome to Queen’s Park.

Ms. Sophie Kiwala: I would like to welcome Glenn Vollebregt, the president of St. Lawrence College; Steve Thompson, the board chair at St. Lawrence College; and also Chris Yaccato, who is becoming a permanent fixture in this House.

Mr. Rick Nicholls: I noticed this morning that the president of St. Clair College Windsor is in the gallery this morning. Welcome, John Strasser.

Hon. Helena Jaczek: I would like to recognize all of the Violence Against Women stakeholders and advocates who have joined us today at Queen’s Park. Among them, in the east members’ gallery, are Anne Armstrong, chair of the Ontario Executive Directors Group; Charlene Catchpole, chair of the Ontario Association of Interval and Transition Houses; and Clare Freeman from Interval House.

In recognition of the United Nations International Day for the Elimination of Violence against Women, you will see these advocates wearing purple scarves as part of the Wrapped in Courage campaign. We invite all members to join us on the grand staircase following question period for a photo in our purple scarves.

Ms. Eleanor McMahon: I’m pleased to welcome to the House today Diane Beaulieu, the executive director of Halton Women’s Place. Further to the minister’s statement, all of these women are here today with respect to the Violence Against Women sector and in recognition of the UN International Day for the Elimination of Violence against Women. Welcome, Diane.

Mr. Mike Colle: I’d like to welcome, from my riding of Eglinton–Lawrence, social-political entrepreneur extraordinaire Josh Rachlis.

Hon. Bill Mauro: Please help me welcome to the Legislative Assembly, from the Thunder Bay real estate association, Ms. Wendy Ferris.

Hon. Mitzie Hunter: I would like to welcome to the Legislature Ann Buller, the president of Centennial College, in my riding of Scarborough–Guildwood. I also noticed my friend David Agnew, president of Seneca College.

Hon. Madeleine Meilleur: I would like to give a warm welcome to four members from the Ottawa Real Estate Board: Janice Myers, executive officer; Patricia Verge; Rick Snell; and Janie Bilder.

Mr. Arthur Potts: Bernnitta Hawkins is in the public gallery. She is also a member of the Red Scarf Brigade and is the executive director of the Red Door Shelter. David Bellmore, who has joined me as a constituency and legislative assistant, is in the members’ gallery opposite. Thank you, David. Welcome.

Hon. Ted McMeekin: I’d like to introduce my former deputy minister, government services, and the new president of Mohawk College, Mr. Ron McKerlie.

Ms. Ann Hoggarth: I’d like to welcome the president of Georgian College, MaryLynn West-Moynes, and the chair of Georgian College, Chris Gariepy.

Hon. Michael Gravelle: As part of this special day, for which we are wearing the purple scarves, I want to introduce Debbie Zweep, who is the executive director of the Faye Peterson Transition House in Thunder Bay. Welcome, Debbie.

Mr. Han Dong: I want to give a personal warm welcome to my good friend and former colleague Chris Yaccato. I know his name was mentioned earlier, but I just want to give my personal welcome to him.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): In the Speaker’s gallery with us today is a friend of mine, and also a former member of the Canadian Parliament for Haldimand–Norfolk who served from 1988 to 2004, Mr. Bob Speller. Welcome, Bob.

Also in the Speaker’s gallery—and I’m glad somebody didn’t step on this for me—a friend of mine and a friend of ours, from the riding of Fort York in the 35th and 36th, and Trinity–Spadina in the 37th, 38th, 39th and 40th Parliaments, Mr. Rosario Marchese.

Applause.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Get it all out now.

Board of Internal Economy

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I beg to inform the House that in accordance with

Section 87 of the Legislative Assembly Act, the following changes in the names of persons appointed to serve as commissioners on the Board of Internal Economy have been communicated to me as chair of the Board of Internal Economy:

The Honourable Yasir Naqvi, MPP, is appointed by the Lieutenant Governor in Council from among the members of the executive council in the place of John Milloy;

Yvan Baker, MPP, is appointed by the caucus of the government in the place of Donna Cansfield; and

John Vanthof, MPP, is appointed by the caucus of the New Democratic Party in place of Cindy Forster, MPP.

Sylvia Jones, MPP, continues to serve as a commissioner on the appointment of the caucus of the official opposition.

Mr. John Yakabuski: Some continuity at least.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I would hope that at least during an announcement like this, I could avoid somebody interjecting.

A point of order from the member for Nickel Belt.

Visitors

M me France Gélinas: Some of my guests came in late. Rob Ruthart and Mary Scourboutakos, who helped me introduce Healthy Decisions for Healthy Eating this morning, are with us at Queen’s Park.

Oral Questions

Energy policies

Mr. John Yakabuski: My question is for the Minister of Energy. Minister, winter is just around the corner, and all across Ontario, residents and small businesses are worried about their ability to pay their hydro bills. A senior living on a fixed income and heating their house electrically, which many of them are, doesn’t know how they’re going to meet the obligation. While air-conditioning is not necessarily essential, heating most definitely is. For some—and I get this from people in my riding all the time—their electricity bills are higher than their old-age pension.

Peak rates, under your plans, are now 14 cents a kilowatt hour, and that doesn’t include all of the added surcharges as a result of your energy policies.

Minister, your policies have taken Ontario from one of the lowest-cost electricity jurisdictions to one of the highest. Are you going to continue to punish our residents and ratepayers, or like winter, is a change in energy policy just around the corner as well?

Hon. Bob Chiarelli: Speaker, the member will know that when our government took over in 2003, we had a deficit of electricity, we had a dirty system, and the system was unreliable.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Stop the clock. I would ask for order, please. Thank you.

Hon. Bob Chiarelli: Over the course of the last nine years, we rebuilt the system with about $30 billion in transmission and generation costs. We have moved from a deficit of electricity to a surplus, from a dirty system to a clean system.

That put pressure on prices. Those price pressures were in our long-term energy plan in 2010 and 2013; they were there for everybody to see. We took very significant mitigation measures, which those parties voted against. That includes the Ontario Clean Energy Benefit and the Ontario Energy and Property Tax Credit, saving qualifying individuals up to $963 per year.

In the supplementaries, I’ll talk about the other issues.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. John Yakabuski: Minister, you give with one hand; you take away with the other. That is cold comfort to those seniors who don’t know how they’re going to pay their bills this winter—pun intended. Shame on you. You can do better than that.

In estimates this morning, it was clearly pointed out to you that hydro rates—all in—in the province of Manitoba are one third what they are in Ontario; in British Columbia, one half. How can you explain to the people living on that fixed income how they pay that much more in Ontario? It is because of your energy policies—your failed policies. You have decided to choose the most expensive options when replacing coal in the province of Ontario.

That has also led to the loss of 300,000 manufacturing jobs—

Hon. Deborah Matthews: Oh, come on.

Mr. John Yakabuski: Oh, yes, 300,000 manufacturing jobs here across the province of Ontario. Your policies are driving businesses away.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Order.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Huron–Bruce, come to order. The Minister of Finance, come to order.

Mr. Steve Clark: Go get ’em, John.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Leeds–Grenville, come to order. And I’m keeping count.

Wrap up, please.

Mr. John Yakabuski: Companies like Heinz, Caterpillar and Xstrata have all cited energy prices as reasons for leaving the province of Ontario. When are you going to get the message? Stop listening to your minions over there—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you.

Minister?

Hon. Bob Chiarelli: Businesses will come and go in Ontario. The reality is that there are more coming in than are leaving. It’s very significant.

We have the highest rate of investment capital of any jurisdiction in North America—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I’m going to get attention, one way or the other.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Chatham–Kent–Essex will come to order.

Carry on.

Hon. Bob Chiarelli: The member knows well that we have implemented a very significant number of programs to assist businesses to come to Ontario with reduced electricity costs and to stay here. The ICI, the industrial conservation initiative, has just been expanded, with probably upwards of 300 companies receiving a 20% discount on their electricity. There are other programs, which I’ll mention in my next supplementary.

We have taken significant steps to mitigate prices, because the price pressures came from us investing because of the damage that they did—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. Be seated, please.

Final supplementary?

Mr. John Yakabuski: Businesses come and go: That’s quite an answer. Well, they’re going at about a 10-to-1 ratio, Minister. That’s not very good on your part.

Minister, those companies that are coming here because you’re giving them a one-off probably appreciate that, but they know that that is at the cost of everybody else in the province of Ontario.

Xstrata, Caterpillar, Heinz: They cite energy costs as a reason for leaving. I have not heard one single business ever say, “We’re coming to Ontario because of its energy policy”—not one. They may come here in spite of your energy policy, because they know you’re giving them a one-off handout.

Minister, last month, the IESO said that the global adjustment, that little-understood little trick of yours, amounted to over $1 billion. That is the cost, the difference between the value of electricity purchased and the amount you have paid to your contractors, the amount you have paid for electricity. The difference between its value and what you paid is $1 billion.

That goes on everybody’s hydro bill. That is driving people out of this province, and that is driving seniors into poverty. When will you reverse the policies?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Stop the clock, please. Be seated, please. Thank you.

Minister?

Hon. Bob Chiarelli: We have one of the best job-creation records in this province. That’s number one.

Number two, there are more businesses coming here and investing money than in any other jurisdiction in North America.

Ontario’s industrial rates compare favourably with other jurisdictions, despite what the PCs claim. Industrial rates in northern Ontario are among the lowest in Canada, and lower than in 44 American states. Industrial rates in southern Ontario are lower than in Alberta, Michigan, New Jersey and California and in line with rates in New York, Virginia and Tennessee.

We have the programs to attract businesses and to create jobs in this province. They have no solutions in any shape whatsoever.

Government accountability

Mr. Randy Hillier: My question is to the Minister of Infrastructure. Minister, you have not been clear whatsoever with the people of Ontario about the value of MaRS and that debacle.

CBRE appraised phase 2, if it was 100% leased, at $303 million. We know that it’s not fully leased, and a building filled with bureaucrats is not worth as much as one filled with research scientists. That’s because the rental rates for office space is $44 to $45 per square foot. For research space, it’s about $60 a foot.

Minister, you’ve placed taxpayers at significant risk. Will you admit to this House that if phase 2 is filled with bureaucrats, the value of the building will be 25% less than the appraised value?

Hon. Brad Duguid: I’m not really sure what the member is referring to when he says this government hasn’t been clear when it comes to our way forward on this particular file. We’ve released 700 pages of documents publicly, so the member can have access to them. In fact, we’ve offered to the committee the opportunity to see all of those documents with absolutely no redactions. I think that’s being pretty open. I think that’s being transparent. I think that’s being very clear.

We have also identified a path forward in seeking the best experts we can in our economy, Michael Nobrega and Carol Stephenson, as we move forward. They have confirmed that the asset that we have lent money to MaRS phase 2 for is worth more than the investment we’ve made, which means what the member has just said is absolutely incorrect. I think what’s unclear is the ability of the member to understand what a secured loan means.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Randy Hillier: Back to the expert panel response again.

Minister, mankind has often wondered if there is intelligent life on Mars. Well, you’ve proven that there’s not at phase 2 or even in your ministry.

Let’s recap the problem you’ve created for taxpayers. The value of the building is the land costs plus the leasing revenue. When the leasing rate drops, so does the revenue. When the revenue drops, so does the value of the building. When you go from charging $60 a square foot to $45 a square foot, the value drops by 25%.

Minister, will you admit that you will not be able to recover the $405 million of taxpayers’ money you’ve already sunk into MaRS phase 2?

Hon. Brad Duguid: Mr. Speaker, the member may want to insult my intelligence. But look, I’m just a kid from Scarborough; I don’t pretend I’m the smartest guy here. But I think if there was a vote taken in the House that compares the intelligence quotas of these two members who are exchanging right now, I’m not sure, but I think I might just edge him out in that respect.

Mr. John Yakabuski: Oh, my God.

Hon. Brad Duguid: I may not—but let me say this: What we’re supporting here is a part of our economy that is extremely important. Some 50% of our life sciences economy in Canada is located right here in Ontario. In and around that building, about 10% of the bioscience cluster is there.

This government stands by our bioscience cluster. This government is going to continue to make investments that are going to grow innovation in this province. The party opposite may want to not support those kinds of approaches. That’s up to them. We’re building the next-generation economy, we’re creating jobs, and we’re going to continue to make those important investments.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Final supplementary?

Mr. Randy Hillier: There is no cluster there except a cluster of bureaucrats, Minister.

Let’s recap the story here: There never was a business case. The private sector won’t rent there. The banks and the investors won’t touch MaRS 2—it’s like an empty Taj Mahal, but full of bureaucrats, not tourists.

ARE got a $65-million bailout. The taxpayers loaned $224 million. Then the taxpayers are on the hook for another $106 million in interest costs, and MaRS gets a free building that the taxpayer fills up and pays rent on. Minister, your responses have been lubricious, at least to this House, and this expert panel—I can’t imagine that it was hired for anything other than to camouflage the slippery language that has been going on here.

Will their report be transparent about the obvious facts or will that expert panel simply shield you from further accountability to this House?

Hon. Brad Duguid: Speaker, the member’s information is simply incorrect, as usual. I think what I want to do in responding is to suggest, what is his alternative? What’s his party’s alternative? Because from what he’s saying, that party would have just let MaRS phase 2 rot in the ground. That would have been irresponsible.

What we’ve done is, we’ve made some important investments to ensure that this project could continue. We’ve taken the best advice from Michael Nobrega and Carol Stephenson to make sure we’re moving forward in a way that’s responsible to taxpayers, in a way that’s responsible to our commitment to create jobs in this province. We’re looking for further advice from those individuals, which we should receive very soon, and then we’re looking to move forward on a project that had challenges, but challenges that we’re going to fix to ensure that this project has a positive future. That is leadership.

Ontario public service

Ms. Andrea Horwath: My question is for the Premier. Yesterday, we learned that the Liberals are on track to fire 10,000 people. Does the Premier really think that now is the time to put out 10,000 pink slips?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Mr. Speaker, I’m not sure where the leader of the third party would have gotten that information, because that’s not the case. Maybe she is confusing it with the platform of the Conservatives, but they were going to fire 100,000 people.

What we’re doing is, we’re engaging in negotiations. We believe in the collective bargaining process, and we are going to make sure that we have a good ongoing relationship with our public sector partners. We are going to continue to constrain salaries and benefits because we know that that is important if we are to remain on our path to balance by 2017-18.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary.

Ms. Andrea Horwath: This is what the head of the Ontario public service union had to say about the Liberal plan for public service: “It is ... worse than anything Mike Harris tabled.” That’s a quote, Speaker. Now, the first step of this plan could mean 10,000 people get fired. Is the Premier really ready to hand out 10,000 pink slips and fire 10,000 Ontarians?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: What is going on right now is that negotiations are beginning with OPSEU. Everything I know about negotiation is that it is much better for the discussion to be at the table. To bargain in public and to start to make overblown statements about what is or isn’t happening is not helpful. When I was in Thunder Bay on the weekend, I had the opportunity to talk to some folks who were expressing their opinion. On the driveway when I was leaving the venue, I had the opportunity to speak with some folks who are part of the union.

I made it clear to them that it is our commitment to have a fair negotiating process at the bargaining table because we want a collective bargaining process that allows for a very good dialogue between the employer and the employee.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Final supplementary.

Ms. Andrea Horwath: Speaker, you may recall that Don Drummond said that the Liberal budget would mean the firing of 100,000 people. The Liberals are already privatizing information technology. We know that that’s the case. People will be fired through that process. With the holidays around the corner, we now find out that the Liberals are getting ready to hand out 10,000 pink slips to Ontarians. Will the Premier tell Ontarians who exactly she’s planning on firing?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I am not going to engage in the fantasy that the leader of the third party—I’m not going to lend credibility to the numbers that the leader of the third party is throwing around, because that is simply not the case.

We are engaging in a collective bargaining process that will be fair, that will have integrity, at the bargaining table. We are not going to bargain in the media. It is not helpful, and it is certainly not helpful at the very beginning of the process. This is the beginning of the process. We want there to be an open dialogue between the employer and the employee so that there can be a good, solid, negotiated agreement. The leader of the third party, I would say with respect, is not advancing that process by her line of questioning.

Health care

Ms. Andrea Horwath: My next question is also for the Premier. People suffer when services are cut, but the Premier’s Minister of Health doesn’t believe that cuts are real. He told a reporter he doesn’t believe that patient care has suffered in Ontario. Health Quality Ontario, on the other hand, says that one in seven hospital beds is occupied by people who would be better off in their homes or in long-term care. As a result, last week in Sudbury, ER wait times shot up and seven surgeries were cancelled.

Now, will the Premier, on behalf of the health minister, apologize to people whose surgeries were cancelled and set the record straight about the health care cuts in Ontario?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I know that the Minister of Health and Long-Term Care is going to want to speak to the details of our plan, but let me just say that the leader of the third party has identified exactly why it is important for us to continue with the plan that we have in place, because our plan is transforming the health care system and is providing care for people at home, where they need it, when they need it. Are we in the middle of a transition? Is it clear that there is more that we have to do?

Absolutely, but we’re changing the model because, as the leader of the third party herself has said, people want care at home and will be better off if they get care at home in their communities. So that’s what we’re doing. We’re investing in those services. It is clear that we have to make more investments, and it is clear that we have to work with the sector to make sure that people are getting timely care. That’s what we’re in the process of doing.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary.

Ms. Andrea Horwath: Patient care is suffering in this province, but this Liberal government refuses to admit that they’re cutting the services that people rely on.

Here’s a news bulletin for the Premier: In Windsor, Essex and Sarnia, daily nursing visits have been cut by 33%. Those are services that people rely on, health care services that are being cut by this government. PSW services are being rolled back to 2013 levels.

But yesterday the minister claimed that these cuts to home care were simply not true. He called them myths and said there were no cuts at all. This is outrageous, for the minister to deny cuts that patients are actually experiencing, cuts that have been spelled out in black and white in CCACs’ own board minutes.

How can the Premier and her minister have the audacity to deny that these cuts to patient care are happening under this Liberal government’s watch?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I just want to make it clear that, on this side of the House, we understand that the transition we’re going through does mean there are changes to service that people may be experiencing. We’re fully cognizant of that and we understand that it is part of the transition process.

But the leader of the third party would have people believe that somehow we don’t have to go through this transition and somehow the aging population and, quite frankly, the demands that people make on the health care system—some of those demands are that they want to stay at home. People don’t want to move into a long-term-care home or into kinds of living situations until they are ready.

For the leader of the third party to suggest that somehow we can just go through this transition, that there will be no change in service and that there will be no adjustment that has to be made, is just to lead people astray. It’s not the case. We are investing. We invested more last year than we did the year before. We will continue to invest in that transformation.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Final supplementary.

Ms. Andrea Horwath: The Premier can’t have it both ways. She can’t answer part one of my question and say, “We’re putting the money into home care and PSWs,” and then in the second question pretend that I didn’t just say that there were major cuts to both PSWs and home care services. I don’t understand what this Premier is trying to say.

It looks like changes equal cuts as far as the Liberals are concerned. Cuts to health care are real. They’re happening under this government’s watch and they’re happening on purpose: cancelled surgeries in Sudbury, cutting nursing by a third in Windsor, chronic gridlock in the Thunder Bay hospital, more than half of sick people can’t get in to see their doctors, seniors waiting 111 days for long-term care, and half of the patients in this province that suffer heart failure are not able to have their necessary one-week follow-up.

Does the Premier agree with her Minister of Health that health care cuts are not real and don’t affect people?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: To the Minister of Health and Long-Term Care.

Hon. Eric Hoskins: Rather than listening to the leader of the third party with regards to her declarations about the state of health care, I would rather actually refer to Health Quality Ontario’s report that just came out last week. It’s important to point out that their report states that “Ontario’s health system is performing better than it was five and 10 years ago.” These are great indicators that our plan is working.

And it’s just not true. We’ve increased—in fact, this year alone, nearly a quarter of a billion dollars invested in home and community care. We increased the Erie St. Clair CCAC’s budget by $3 million this year compared to last year. In fact, the funding to the Erie St. Clair LHIN has doubled since we came into power 10 years ago.

So the allegations that the leader of the third party is making are absolutely false. I think it’s important that she recognize that the situation in Ontario is improving. Health care is of the highest quality it can be.

Access to information

Ms. Sylvia Jones: My question is to the Premier. Ben Levin, from your transition team, has been charged with seven counts involving child pornography, some happening while he was working for you in early 2013. When you learned of these charges, what internal investigation was done to ensure no government property was used and/or compromised by Mr. Levin?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I believe that this is a case that is before the courts and I really cannot comment on any of the details because, as I say, it’s a current and active legal file.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary.

Ms. Sylvia Jones: Premier, I didn’t ask about the police investigation; I asked about your investigation. Did you order an internal investigation when you learned of these seven charges? What assurances can you give us that government resources were not used to distribute or access child pornography while Ben Levin was on your transition team?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: This is a case that is before the courts; I cannot comment on any of the aspects of the case.

Government accountability

Mr. Percy Hatfield: My question this morning is for the Premier. Good morning, Premier.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Good morning.

Mr. Percy Hatfield: In 2012, MaRS got a special innovation grant from the city of Toronto worth $23 million over 10 years. One of the conditions of that grant was that 98% of the property had to be used for biomedical research. We now know the secret cabinet plan that authorized the first MaRS bailout said that more than half of the building would be used to staff the Ontario public service.

The question for the Premier is whether the Liberal government plans to break the deal with the city of Toronto and waste another $23 million on MaRS.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Minister of Economic Development, Employment and Infrastructure.

Hon. Brad Duguid: I think the member knows that we have a couple of esteemed individuals, Michael Nobrega and Carol Stephenson, taking a look at the opportunities forward in terms of the best way to protect the taxpayer investment and the best way to ensure that the innovation agenda and vision of MaRS can be continued. We’re looking forward to getting those recommendations. I don’t want to in any way step all over those recommendations before they come forward.

I’ve been very clear, and I think the member would be able to read through my comments here, that there has been no momentum whatsoever with regard to the idea of putting bureaucrats into MaRS phase 2. I’ve been very clear about that; there’s no momentum behind that idea. But I don’t want to prejudge what Michael Nobrega and Carol Stephenson bring forward. I want to make sure, and I’ve told them that I want their recommendations to be completely unfettered, as I expect them to be.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Percy Hatfield: The agreement with the city of Toronto is clear: 98% of the building must be used for biomedical and scientific research. If the conditions aren’t met, the city can take back the $23 million.

The Liberal government seems unclear on what they’re going to do. To keep the grant, they need high-tech tenants, but they can’t find high-tech tenants so they might use MaRS for office space, but then they would lose the $23 million. Which will it be? Will the Premier keep the building two thirds empty, or will she lose $23 million?

Hon. Brad Duguid: I welcome the member’s question, and I think I can read through his question that the NDP are in support of continuing to ensure that MaRS’s vision continues, and that phase 2, in fact, as it moves forward, takes that into consideration. I think that’s valid advice. I expect that may well be the advice we receive from Michael Nobrega and Carol Stephenson. I’m looking forward to that advice.

Certainly, this government remains committed to MaRS’s vision. Certainly, we remain committed to ensuring the 51,000 jobs in the bioscience sector can remain to be supported. MaRS is an important part of our innovation agenda, so I take the member’s question as support and a recommendation for us to continue to invest in MaRS’s vision going forward. I’ll be happy to receive the advice that we get from Michael Nobrega and Carol Stephenson going forward.

Electronic commerce

Ms. Harinder Malhi: My question is for the Attorney General. Attorney General, certain members of my constituency have expressed an interest in a piece of legislation, the Electronic Commerce Act, that relates to electronic signatures in real estate transactions. As most of us know, the purchase of a home is one of the most complex and time-consuming transactions a person can make. I, as well as some of my constituents, would like to know more details regarding this act.

Could the Attorney General please inform this House how the Electronic Commerce Act is making the sale and purchase of real estate easier and more efficient for the people of Ontario?

Hon. Madeleine Meilleur: Let me say thank you to the member from Brampton–Springdale. She is right; the purchase of a home is a big moment in anybody’s life. The idea behind the Electronic Commerce Act is to make this process more efficient.

Ontario’s 2013 amendments to the Electronic Commerce Act will allow people to electronically sign paperwork and email it to their real estate agent. The proposed regulation would support the reliability of electronic signatures on agreements of purchase and sale of land by stipulating that each signature must be reliable for the purpose of identifying the person who signs, permanent, and accessible by people who are entitled to view it. These amendments are intended to reduce the time needed to complete a deal.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Ms. Harinder Malhi: I thank the Attorney General for the answer. This is great news for my constituents, as the purchase of a home can be a stressful experience. Any opportunity to make the process more efficient and easier for individuals or families should be looked at. Since this is arguably the biggest purchase of an individual’s or family’s life, I feel as though the protection of our consumers should be paramount.

My only concern regarding this legislation is that of fraud. Speaker, through you to the Attorney General, could this House be informed on how the Electronic Commerce Act protects consumers from fraud, specifically regarding the use of electronic signatures?

Hon. Madeleine Meilleur: Thank you again for this important question. The issue of fraud is part of the reason we are currently in a consultation period until December 31. Lawyers and real estate agents are already required to verify the identity of their clients. These rules apply to electronic transactions as well as paper-based transactions and remain in effect. Whatever is approved for use must be safe, secure and easy to use for consumers and small businesses.

The real estate industry in Ontario has been requesting this change for some time, and we are pleased to be moving forward with it, so the deadline for comments is until December 31, 2014, and if people want to comment, we welcome their comments.

Transportation planning

Mr. Michael Harris: My question is to the Minister of Transportation. Yesterday we learned of the Minister of Transportation’s $61-million Pan/Parapan transportation plan. It featured lots and lots of encouragement for commuters to examine their commuting options, encouraging them to work flexible hours and stockpile supplies.

After spending $61 million of taxpayers’ money, the minister is asking them to stock up and stay home and off the roads. Is this the best advice he could come up with?

Hon. Steven Del Duca: While I thank the member for asking that question, it’s unfortunate, I would think, that he didn’t pay attention to all of the elements of the very ambitious and robust plan that we have to deal with transportation issues that will be occurring during the Pan Am/Parapan Am Games.

As I talked about, and as ministry officials talked about yesterday when speaking about this, we have a variety of options in front of us that we’re presenting to the people of the region to make sure that not only are the games the extraordinary success that they will be, but that we also keep our region moving.

The “transit first” approach, the additional temporary HOV lanes that will be made available, not just to people associated with the games themselves but to the public at large, the fact that we are, this many months in advance of the games, providing clear communications materials and letting people know what the challenges will be bodes well, and I look forward to responding with additional details in the supplementary.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Michael Harris: The Wynne Liberals have had years to get this right, and yet we’re left with a mixed bag of ingredients that add up to a recipe for traffic chaos. Not everybody can carpool or bicycle in, and flexible hours simply don’t exist in some occupations.

Surely the minister knows that taking out 235 kilometres of current lanes from commuters for HOVs adds up to major traffic gridlock. Rush hours on reduced lanes will mean significant delays. That’s obvious.

Speaker, the minister has the studies. Will he tell us today how long, on average, rush hour commuters will see their daily drive to work delayed during the games?

Hon. Steven Del Duca: I thank the member for the supplementary question. I think it is important to recognize, as I said in the response to the initial question, that it is a very strong plan to make sure that the region continues to move throughout the games—

Mr. John Yakabuski: Leave on Tuesday, get there Wednesday. Bring a picnic basket.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I got pushed. The member from Renfrew–Nipissing–Pembroke is warned.

Carry on, please.

Hon. Steven Del Duca: Speaker, thanks. As I was saying, a very strong plan that the Ministry of Transportation has developed to make sure we can keep our region moving during the Pan Am/Parapan Am Games and also make sure that the games themselves are a success. It is important to stress, as I did yesterday during the briefing, that we have relied on working with more than 30 partners on developing this plan, that we have actually taken the best experiences from what has taken place around the world in jurisdictions that have hosted games. I am a little bit surprised that this particular critic would ask this question, seeing as how he didn’t even show up to yesterday’s technical briefing.

Nuclear safety

Mr. Peter Tabuns: My question is to the Minister of Energy. Minister, as you know, radioactive heavy water leaked from a reactor at the Pickering nuclear station this past Friday. My understanding is that five to 10 tonnes of radioactive heavy water leaked over roughly a two-hour period. My understanding is the public was not notified of this leak until Monday of this week. Why was the public not notified within 24 hours that the leak occurred?

Hon. Bob Chiarelli: I thank the member for the question, and we did have some discussions on this this morning at the estimates committee, Mr. Speaker. We did bring, of our own volition, Paul Pasquet, who is the chief nuclear officer from OPG, to the committee. He was available to answer questions, and he answered them extremely well. He confirmed that we followed all of the protocol, and the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission was notified. They have confirmed that all protective protocols were followed to ensure the public safety of the public and the employees.

I have to say, they also, of their own volition, without a requirement to do so, sent notices to all the mayors, to all the public safety organizations that would have anything involved in the issue, Mr. Speaker. It was comprehensive, and they followed all the protocols.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Peter Tabuns: Speaker, it seems like everyone was informed except the public.

Minister, I think you would agree that a leak of five to 10 tonnes of radioactive water is no small thing, and, quite frankly, I’m surprised that OPG would wait three days to notify the residents of neighbouring communities that a leak of this magnitude had occurred nearby.

Will this government change its protocol for notifying neighbouring communities so that residents don’t have to wait three days to learn of a serious leak?

Hon. Bob Chiarelli: Mr. Speaker, I’ll just confirm that OPG followed all of the protocols of—the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission’s protocol RD-99.3 states that OPG will communicate in one business day of unplanned events exceeding regulatory limits or off-site effects. Mr. Speaker, they did; they went beyond what they were required to do, notifying almost immediately all the public safety officials of all the municipalities in the area.

I think the member thinks he has got some little technical twist to try to embarrass OPG. Mr. Speaker, they were outstanding in how they responded. There was no danger to individuals, to the public, in any way, shape or form. It was totally 100% contained, and the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission has confirmed that after the fact.

Northern transportation

Ms. Daiene Vernile: My question is for the Minister of Northern Development and Mines. Yesterday we saw some of our colleagues on the other side of the House head for Sudbury to debate their ideas for the north. It’s good to see them visiting that part of our province.

The Premier has made it very clear that our government is committed to building Ontario up, and this means not only investing in urban areas but also our smaller and our northern communities as well.

Minister, there are more than 11,000 kilometres of provincial highways in northern Ontario. That’s about 60% of the entire provincial highway network.

Mr. Speaker, can the minister please tell this House how our government has invested in transportation infrastructure in northern Ontario?

Hon. Michael Gravelle: Thanks to the member for Kitchener Centre for the question. Yes, it was terrific to see the opposition actually going above Barrie and actually visiting northern Ontario, a part of the province they ignored during—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Timmins–James Bay will come to order, and the member from Eglinton–Lawrence. Thank you.

Finish, please.

Hon. Michael Gravelle: Mr. Speaker, in fact, I would certainly encourage the members of the opposition to visit other parts of the north, places like Kenora, Red Lake, Hearst, Geraldton, Longlac and Thunder Bay, because this would give them a real opportunity to see first-hand the investments our government has made in roads, highways and bridges across northern Ontario.

Since 2003, our government has approved over 4,000 kilometres of highways—not bad—and 245 bridges. We have constructed hundreds of kilometres of new four-lane highways along with a bunch of new bridges. We have invested more than $5 billion in northern highways since 2003—an unprecedented—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. Supplementary?

Ms. Daiene Vernile: Thank you to the minister for his response. It’s very encouraging to know that we do have a very balanced and comprehensive plan for Ontario and for improving our transportation network. This will, of course, add to strengthening our economy—it’s going to create jobs—and it improves our quality of life for all Ontarians.

We know that this year our government is going to be investing $2.2 billion to repair and expand our provincial highways and our bridges. For northern Ontario, this includes $527 million. Can the minister please share with us the recent investments that we have made to build and fix transportation in northern Ontario?

Hon. Michael Gravelle: Thank you again to the member for Kitchener Centre, because certainly investment in transportation infrastructure is one of our government’s top priorities and certainly one of the top priorities for northern Ontario.

Let me just tell you a bit about the past construction season in 2014 in northern Ontario. We upgraded 499 kilometres of highways and 33 bridges. We constructed 58 kilometres of new highway, including two new bridges, and that, of course, included the construction of 13 kilometres of new four-lane highway, Highway 17 between Thunder Bay and Nipigon, a great project. We are continuing work on the expansion of Highway 69 south of Sudbury, including new interchanges and bridges.

It was another remarkably successful year for the northern highways program and, I think, a real commitment—by continuing to invest in the expansion and the improvement of vital transportation, we’re helping to support a dynamic business climate in the north and improve the lives of all northerners.

Heritage conservation

Mr. Todd Smith: My question is for the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Sport this morning.

Minister, are you aware that your ministry has signed off on a report that states that locating wind turbines in Prince Edward county, specifically in South Marysburgh in Prince Edward county, would cause negative effects on several local heritage sites?

Hon. Michael Coteau: I appreciate the member’s question. I’m not aware of the specific issue. I would love to sit down with the member and get some more information and provide him with the information necessary.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary.

Mr. Todd Smith: This is part of the problem with this government: They’re acting in silos. They don’t know what one ministry is doing from one to the other.

Minister, the provincial policy statement from 2014 for your ministry states: “Significant built heritage resources and significant cultural heritage landscapes shall be preserved.” According to your own ministry, that includes the steeple at Mount Tabor Playhouse in Milford in Prince Edward county in South Marysburgh. However, the project that would denigrate these sites was posted onto the EBR, the Environmental Bill of Rights.

Minister, what should I tell my constituents in Prince Edward county, that you will ignore your own policies, you’ll trample on the Ontario Heritage Act and you’ll bend over backwards to help a wind developer before you’ll help the people of Prince Edward county?

Hon. Michael Coteau: What I think you can tell your constituents back home is that you’ll book an appointment, sit down with me, have an exchange and a conversation so you can update us on what’s going on and work with us in order to find a solution. I would expect that if there’s an issue that’s taking place, I think as MPPs in this Legislature we need to work together to get to the bottom of it and find solutions. You know my office is accessible, so any time you want to address these issues, please come and see me.

Ring of Fire

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Algoma–Manitoulin.

Mr. Michael Mantha: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and good morning to you. My question is to the Minister of Northern Development and Mines.

International mining giant Cliffs Natural Resources has spent $550 million in the Ring of Fire. It had a plan to create thousands of jobs. It can no longer do business with the Ontario Liberals. The CEO of Cliffs Natural Resources made headlines last month, saying that he had “zero hope” for the Ring of Fire and that the project was “beyond the point of no return.” Last week, he went on to say that every investment made here was a “disaster.”

Does the minister concur with Cliffs’s CEO’s assessment that the $60-billion Ring of Fire project is dead?

Hon. Michael Gravelle: I would like to think that the member opposite would agree with me when I say that that could not be more wrong. We are moving forward very, very diligently and actively in terms of the Ring of Fire and are working forward on a plan that we are indeed actually implementing.

May I say this about Cliffs Natural Resources: Yes, indeed, they were one of the major companies involved in the Ring of Fire. They obviously have got some challenges of their own. We saw a decision that they made last week related to another one of their operations in another province.

The fact is, there is significant continued industry interest in the Ring of Fire, let alone the fact that we are working so closely with the First Nations, Matawa First Nations and other First Nations organizations, to move this project forward. We recognize, and I think everyone in the House does, how important it is that we make sure there are ensured benefits to all the First Nations communities as part of that project.

In my supplementary, I’ll look forward to expanding on the plan that we have.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Michael Mantha: Minister, in the seven years your government had to develop the Ring of Fire, it has failed to come up with a plan that will create jobs, build infrastructure and reduce the high price of electricity. Your government has promised a development board that was supposed to include partners in industry and First Nations. But besides four bureaucrats sitting at a table playing euchre by themselves, we see nothing.

Your government’s regional framework agreement with First Nations isn’t working when Matawa chiefs say the government is excluding them from the development corporation board and is not consulting them on mining permits in the Ring of Fire.

Minister, will it be another seven years or more of us asking questions?

Hon. Michael Gravelle: Mr. Speaker, it certainly needs to be noted off the top of my response that indeed the party opposite put nothing in their platform in terms of supporting the Ring of Fire. We have a $1-billion commitment in terms of transportation infrastructure.

And in relationship to the other part, about—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Stop the clock, please. The Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing knows better than to put up something that is not supposed to be put up, and I would thank the deputy House leader for providing the material.

Hon. Michael Gravelle: So, while we have made an absolutely firm commitment, $1 billion towards transportation infrastructure, there has been no support on the other side of the House. May I say, it would certainly be gratifying to get support from all sides of the House related to the federal government matching those dollars. We know how important that is in terms of investor confidence.

As for the Ring of Fire Infrastructure Development Corp., that is focused very specifically on bringing all those partners on board. That’s what we’re doing. That’s what we’re actively doing. Indeed, as I said before, the work that we are doing with the First Nations is vital. We would seek your support. This is—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Stop the clock, please. I do want to remind this particular minister that when I stand, you sit.

Hon. Michael Gravelle: I’ve been better lately, haven’t I?

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): With no editorial.

New question.

Employment standards

Mr. Shafiq Qaadri: Ma question est pour le ministre du Travail, the Honourable Kevin Flynn.

Speaker, workers in my own riding of Etobicoke North, as well as across Ontario, deserve to receive the compensation that they are due, the paycheque that they’ve earned through their own hard work. Unfortunately, we continue to see certain unfair practices, incidents which occur in workplaces across Ontario where people aren’t being treated fairly by employers. Whether it’s not receiving vacation pay, scheduled breaks, parental leave, minimum wage or other issues, workers in this province are concerned that they aren’t getting everything they are entitled to.

Speaker, my question is this: What is the Ministry of Labour doing to ensure that basic employment standards are upheld and workers in Ontario are getting what they’ve earned?

Hon. Kevin Daniel Flynn: Thank you to the member from Etobicoke North for that very important question.

The Employment Standards Act sets out the minimum requirements that deal with the payment of wages. That includes overtime pay, vacation pay, public holiday pay, minimum wage. It also includes pregnancy and parental and personal emergency leave, and it talks about termination and severance.

We proactively inspect workplaces in