VOL. 3 PRELI.HIN.:\RY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 2:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. TUESDAY, ~-~Y 30, 1978 NO. 72

VOLUME 3 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 8:00P.M. - 11:00 P.M. TUESDAY, 30th. MAY 1978 NO. 73

1 ::ec:ber c,(:o is ::on tl:tc "'iaister of Industrial 9evelopt7:cr.t, ;;:;.c ot::er, for .:...:J::.ost t!:e entirr. period about •;hic.h ~rc nrc tnlkic.c. on. ::c reference to the Public '!r·ndcr !,c:::. 7\:c.re _;:; t:he document I 22V.:!, ·•:::-. S!'eaLer 1 if the page uculd cone by, t::1c c:echa~c:!.al co:".tra.ctors which I ··auld like to table. )Tow, \'r, Speaker, I r.:J.iscd u question a fct· :::ti;:~utcs azo about tthere does this !.eave t!te srr:all contractor? ':·7:1e::-e 2.oes t:t:!.s leun t:te fellm" t:ho ls st:rugr;l:!.ng? In po.rticulnr t'.ou vith the econony dot-m, where does it lenve the r:or:t:::'nct:or? Perit-:J.p::;, cnll. ; 8340

Tape 1744 (~light Session) n:• - 1 Ot'der, rolease! Hould the Clerk of t~e House count the House please? :-::?,. LV:-:Ur..IGA!:: I am info~d a quoru~ is pt'escnt. ::r. Spea!:er, a pain': of order. ~'?,. SI'E.\F:ER: A point of order has c. orne up. '~r. Speaker, when the hon. !"!em'?cr stood in his place and he said that he demanded that there be a quorum call there were twenty-five ~etr.bers present in the House, :-:m.; the hon. r.enber of course has alreadv taken up twelve hours of t!'le legislative time on his speech here today. Twelve hours?

And he has put everybody through the erubarrassr:ent of having to listen to~twelve hours has disru!Jted the affairs of our Province, he has robbed the opportunity from all t!:e r:tembers of the F!ouse to carry on the debates of the constituencies in tha Province. That is quite bad enough but to stand here and call a quorun, Your Honour, when there were twenty-five ~~mbers present in the Legislature is not only an abuse of the rules but it is totally disstructive. :'T,. S .~ll!IRY: ''R.

Ll!i'!DlUG.~~: Sit down boy. ;ro-w, Your Honour, first of all there was no lack of quorum the hen. member and the record show and the people of this Province should be at~are that the hon. member called a quorum with twenty-five i.lerr.bers t-1hen fourteen rr.ei.lbers had presence to make n quorun. There were twenty-five members present and he called a quorum with ~Dre tlum a quorum on their o~m side, Your Ponour, walked out of the House to get a quorur.1. ::ow that is a slap in the teeth for the people of this Province. SO~U: HO:l. ~!E-!BERS: Hear, hear! !T.. LU:IDR!GA!i: Hr.

Speaker, I do not rr~nC this hen. gentlet:>.an standing there for tHelve hours and abusinll: every last one of the metr.bers in this Legislature and robbing tr~mbers of the 8347

"ny JCI, 1?7? Tape 3744 ('lip,ht Session) f'OI.] - 2 ooportu:1ity to oresent their cases and to get involved in t~eir causes. ~ffi. SI!~!O~S: }T,.. SPEAKER (COLLINS): !ffi. SU!YONS: A point of privilege, 'fr. Spea!:er. A point of privilege has come up. !!r. Speaker, in tioe I t,rill speak to the point of order which has been raised hut I want now to speak to a point of privilege ~hich is quite seoarate from the matter he has raised. He just said I have abused members of the Eouse. "r. Speaker, the member for Grand Falls (!!r.

Lundrigan) may not like Hhat I am saying the way he has weasled on the C:rand Falls Hospital issue I can tmderstand w"h1 he would not like - I cannot expect :lim to like. Hr. Speaker, he cannot say that I have abused the members of the House some of the them may not like to hear what I have had to say I know other members Hho have been happy to hear what t have had to say. And, Hr. Speaker, he must t-tithdrau the charge that I have abused any member of this House. HR. ~!ORGA.t-t: !-fR. SI~~!O!-TS: You have abuser! the rules of the Jlouse.

And, Hr.Speaker, and the ?-'inister of Tourism must also withdraw any implication that t have .:tbu!'led the rules of the House as well. SO~!E HO!T. MEMBERS: A;{ P0}1. ~!F:!1BER: his •,-tay back in with the Premier. An HO~l • ~!EMBEr-~ ',t:;, 1IHITE: '-""' NEAP.Y: in ;.fith the Premier. Hear, hear~ Hithdraw. Bob Loder is trying to suck Bob Loder cannot deny it. Fe vas flicked out of the Cabinet. He is trying to suck his uay back

) ::me 3744 (~light Session) 11'·' - 3 :fR. SPtAit'!.R(rOLLI!1S): nrner, please! A point of priviler;c is before the Chair. "!.R, SIM}!ONS: I am try·ing to speak, Hr. Speaker, to the point of privilege but the member for Bonavista South (Hr. Morgan) has got unparliamentary notY and r.:ade some remarks that require uithdrawal as -;;ell saying that 1 have abused the rules Dut I t:ant to spenl: first to the nember for Grand Falls point. In raising his ?Oint of ot."Cer, ''r. Speaker, he has said quite clearly that I have abused oernbcrs of this House. :row I know the memher for St. John's ::lorth r,~r.

Carter) will get up and say I have abused him but that I take pleasure in, ~#r. Speaker, that is a different issue altogether. But otherwise except as it is entertaining to do so in regard· to the member fat St. John's ~:orth I say I have abused no member of this House. nor do I intend to. HR. RIDEOUT: :'i:I HO:T. ~,ffi~'BER: ~lR. SPEAKER(COLLINS): ~dr the right to.do. That is wrong. Han. minister. Mr. Spefficer, !,realize that on points of privilege debate is not permitted but I do submit that there is noc a point of privilege raised by the han. gentle~An for Burgeo- Bay d' Espoir (Mr.

Simmons) there has been no - the rest that one could say is that there is a rather sharp difference of opinion between two han. nembers of this House and that most definitely does not fall vithin the point of privilege ruled or a matter which is to be raised on a point of privilege and as Your Honour, is aware points of privilege as Beauchesne says must be raised very rarely.in this House and only on occasion vhen there is sorr~ very stron~ prima facie evirlencc to indicate to it such prir.m frcie meml::er. And, :~r.

Speal:er, also if you look through Beauchesne the list of the things that are nnparliarr:entary and constituent breaches of the rules I see all kinds of things here but I certainly do not see amongst them the very mild, mild gentle~~nly parli;;;."l'.entar;• conments uttered by the hon. menber for r:rand !"alls.

) Tape 37!..4 (':ight Session) Sorry. Sir. I dratJ your attention to 3eauchesne, Sir,

section 155, page 131. sub-

section 2 Bourinot, Sir, page 361 gives the following exai:!ples of unparliamentary phrases,~ that his remarks are insultins to ::he House and to the rountry, 83.:;;a

May 30, 1978 Tape 3745 (Night) PK - 1 Mr. F. Rowe: Now, Sir, the member for Grand Falls (Mr. Lundrigan) said very clearly, very clearly that the member - MR. STRACHAN: He lost his cool. MR. F. ROWE: - my colleague was insulting the members of the House and the Province in the methods that he was using here tonight. Sir, I will draw your attention to that particular citation because think it is quite operative here, and I think this constitutes a point of privilege raised by my colleague. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): Order, please!

The point of privilege is tbe one before the Chair and prior to that there was a point of order. In dealing with the point of privilege the question is, the han. member for G~and Falls is saying that the hon. the member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir abused members by his remarks. And secondly the han. Minister for Tourism by saying that he abused the rules of the House. That this constitutes a breach of privilege.

I think that this does fall into the area covered by Sections from 154 and 155 in Beauchesne, and this deals really with points of order, in other words, whether certain things are unparliamentary as opposed to privilege. So I would have to rule that this matter is not one of privilege, but it may be of order and I think it should be dealt with on that basis. Now in looking at these two sections~ very briefly threatening language is unparliamentary. The use of hypothetical words to convey imputations is unparliamentary. The imputation of bad motives is unparliamentary. MR. HICKMAN: Mr.

Speaker , can I draw your attention to number 4? MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS: And number four which I was coming to because I just finished number three, number four says He did not know that. MR. SPEAKER (DR, COLLINS): - urt is not out of order to say that a member has obstructed the business of the House1or that a speech is an abuse of the rules of the House." SOME HON. HEMBERS: Hear, hear~ 8351

May 30, 1978 Tape 3745 (Night) PK - 2 MR. SPEAKER (OR. COLLINS): Then going on from there, "It is not unparliamentary to say that the statement is untrue. but it is unparliamentary to say that it is untrue to the knowledge of the member addressing the House. Then to say words like, 11 purchased by legislation",and it is a well-known principle that a statement made in the House cannot be contradicted by a statement made by a person who is not a member of the House. 11 Then in

Section 155, in regard to guidance to members it is unparliamentary for them to impute false motives, to misrepresent the language of others, and to make an accusation of misrepresentation. Charging and uttering a deliberate falsehood. And then abusive and insulting language, and there is a large list there which I will not go into. And then coming to the

Section brought up by the hon. the member for Trinity-Bay de Verde (Mr. F. Rowe) gives the following examples of unparliamentary phrases, 11 No member may be pennitted to say of another;that he can expect no candour from him, that he only affected to deplore the distresses of the country,thAt his remarks are insulting to the House and to the country, that he is in the habit of utterinq libels in the House, that he is guilty of gross misrepresentations. t!lat :te has acted baselv from base motives, that he is smiling observed indulginll: in a smile unworthv of ;:a m:~n." and so on.

And in Subsection (3) to question and honour of an honourable member to say that an honourable member is going about the country telling lies, and similar in that vein. 11 Now in considering all of these I do not see where an han. member saying that another hen. member is abusing hen. members by his remarks. I cannot see that that phrase fits into this very precisely, because it seems to me that this is a subjective

interpretation, that one hen. member ~ay feel that remarks made by an han. member are all right, and another han. member may take exception to them and feel abused by them. So I would feel that if an han. member states another han. member abuses him by his remarks that this is not an unparliamentary thing to say, it is merely 8352

) May 30, 1978 Tape 3754 (Night) PK - 3 Mr. Speaker (Br. Collins); his

interpretation of the han. member's remarks. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: MR. LUNORIGAU: Oh, oh: Insulting, Your Honour. On a point of order. Mr. Speaker, there is a fairly serious point of order here. The han. the member for aurgeo-Bay d~Espoir (Mr. Simmons} stands in his place having spoken for twelve hours - MR. SPEAKER (OR. COLLINS: Order, please! Just for clarification. The hon. member for Grand Falls (Mr. Lundrigan) is on a point of order which had been temoorarily interrupted by the point of privilege. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Exactly. Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (OR.

COLLINS) So the hon. member is on a point of order. MR. LUNORIGAN: Mr. Speaker, he stands in his place having been here, keeping the House and the public business engaged by himself for twelve hours, and he turns around to members, twenty-five whom are present and said, think, it is time to call a quorum. /liR. 5 IMMONS: There is no point of order. MR. LUNORIGAN: I think it is time to call a quorum, 8353 ;

May 30, 1978, Tape 3746, Page 1 -- apb Night MR. UJNDRIG;N: as if the han. member has the dominance to be able to make his own rules. He walks out through the door, Your Honour - MR. SIMMONS: A point of privilege, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER(Collins) : A point of privilege. MR. SIMMONS: My matter of privilege is that the member for Grand Falls (Mr. Lundrigan) has lied to the House, Mr. Speaker. He has lied to the House. There were five members sitting on that side of the House, Mr. Speaker. We have a total of twenty in this caucus. The member for Port de Grave (Mr. Oawe) was not here.

Even if all were here, there would then be twenty-five. The fact is that I can account for at least three of our members who are outside the building on other assignments right now. There were not, physically, twenty-five people in the House, Mr. Speaker. The member for Grans Falls is now lying to the House. At most, Mr. Speaker - MR. SPEAKER(Collins): Order, please! Order! MR. SIMMONS: - there were fifteen or sixteen - MR. SPEAKER(Collins) : Order, please! Order, please!

I do have to interrupt here and I do have to point out that it is quite clear - and this point has been stated quite a number of times, certainly in this session, that the accusation of lying, and I would reiterate because I have stated this once before not too long ago, that what a member feels is not germane, it does not matter whether a member feels a certain thing it is what he states that is the issue to be judged by the Chair - it is quite clear in Beauchesne and in other authorities that it is unparliamentary for a member to state that another han. member is lying.

It is immaterial what he feels, what he thinks, what he can prove, but it is the statement that is the unparliamentary act. In view of that, and I am sure the 8354 ;

May 30, 1978, Tape 3746, Page 2 -- apb MR. SPEAKER(Collins) : han. member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) on reflection, would want to withdraw that remark. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, if that is the requirement I shall be happy to do it, but if Mr. Speaker would just allow me one sentence first as to why I said it. I understood that in making a point of privilege you can make an allegation and then if it is not substantiated the case - AN HON. MEMBER: Sit down, boy! Sit down! MR. SIMMONS: The clear case, Mr.

Speaker, is the one about which we had the all night debate where the allegation was made about'deliberately misleading' and then once disposed of the members concerned were required to withdraw the allegation - after the matter had been disposed of. I submit, Mr. Speaker, that the only way I can bring the matter of privilege before the House that the member has lied, is to say that word and then if subsequent events do not bear me out, well then, under parliamentary rule I Night would be required to withdraw the term as being unparliamentary. But to make my point of privilege, I submit, Mr.

Speaker, I would have to follow the same course that was followed here a few nights ago when we had the all night debate where the term 'deliberately misled' stood during the duration of the proceeding and once it had been dealt with, the proceeding had been dealt with, then the term had to be withdrawn to conform within the parliamentary rules. I would submit it was in that context I used it and I would ask Mr. Speaker to take that under advisement and if he still feels I need to withdraw it I shall, of course, heed what his advice is to me on the matter. MR. MARSHALL: MR. HICKMAN: MR. SPEAKER(Collins): Mr.

Speaker. Mr. Speaker. The han. House Leader. 8355

May 30, 1978, Tape 3746, Page 3 -- apb MR. HICKMAN: on now, a point of privilege - MR. NEARY: at a time. MR. HICKMAN: MR. SPEAKER(Collins): John's East. I do not know what we are The han. House Leader. One oh, I am sorry. The han. member for St. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, this is entirely and completely - you know, this House is just going to tumble down around our ears. Your Honour has ordered, has ruled that an han. member of this House withdraw an allegation that another member has lied. Your Honour's authority is now being challenged.

The fact of the matter is- and Beauchesne is full of this, May is full of it - that when an allegation like that is made it calls for the prompt intervention of the Chair, which was done. When Your Honour makes a ruling it is to be complied with by members whether they like it or not. It is not to be debated, but it is to be complied with and complied with immediately. MR. NEARY: MR.

MARSHALL: Now, Your Honour, I suggest - (Inaudible) rule. - I suggest that the rules demand that the han. member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir immediately, unequivocally, without reservation whatsoever withdraw the allegation of lying against the member for Grand Falls, with no back-talk no nothing but do it immediately and if he does not the consequences are there that the han. member should be named and bear the consequences accordingly. Because this is parliamentary terrorism at its worse which is being practiced day after day in this Assembly. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER(Collins) : Order, please!

The issue before the Chair is one of privilege. I thank han. members for their submissions. 8356

) May 30, 1978 Tape 3747 (Night) EC - 1 MR. SPEAKER: (Collins) The bon. the member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) following remarks I made, made a submission in which, in my view, he did state a case with some validity in that his case was that he was making a point of privilege and that to make his point of privilege he had to state that he considered that a lie was being told. I think that there is a difference here than if in the course of a debate without the statement being made on a point of privilege, in debate, ~at a member accuses another member of telling a lie, I think this is quite clear cut.

I thank the bon. member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) for his submission, but I would point out that I had not actually made a ruling. If bon. members will remember my remarks, my remarks were I informed the han. the member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir of my

interpretation of Beauchesne and then I stated words to this effect, I was sure he would wish to withdraw. I made no such order to do so. And I think that with the submissions before me the question now is merely, Do we have a valid point of privilege? MR. SPEAKER: I am making. I ~!as just stating my point as I knowit. Order. please! If I may just finish the remarks In other words, do we have a valid point of privilege before the Bouse? And this revolves around the numbers that were present when a quorum was called. The bon. the member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir wishes to make another submission, I believe. MR.

SI!1MONS: While I t~as raising my point of privilege, of course, !lr. Speaker properly interrupted me to clarify the matter of whether I was being parliamentary and that is where the matter rested. I did not get an opportunity 8357 ;

~!ay 30, 1978 Tape 3747 (Night) EC - 2 !fR. S I~U!ONS: until now to conclude my point of privilege, and that is why I rise right now. I clearly remember that there were five members on the opposite side of the House in their places at that particular time -five members. ~R. NEARY: Five out of tltirty. HR. SIHHO~S: Five out of thirty, Hr. Speaker. And of course, Mr. Speaker in the Chair would be number six, but five on that side of the House. On this side of the House, Mr. Speaker, as I remember, there were probably eight or nine, probably as few as seven members. There is no way, Mr.

Speaker, if you do the mathematics -and this is my point of privilege - there were five on that side - HR. MORGAN: Show your allegation. AN HO~l. HEMBER: Oh, shut up! MR. S UIMONS : I am proving the allegation. Mr. Speaker, is there any way to set straight the member for Bonavista South? HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Yhilst a point of privilege is before the Chair, I think the rule of only one spe=king at a time sltould be strictly adhered to. !lit. SIHHONS: I can see why the Premier has so much trouble with him, Hr. Speaker. There were five members on that side of the House, Mr. Speaker.

There are only twenty in this caucus altogether, and while our attendance record over here is very good, Mr. Speaker, there were not twenty of us here at that particular time, indeed, there were about eight or nine here. So at most, Mr. Speaker, there were not twenty-five here, Mr. Speaker. There were anywhere from thirteen to fourteen or fifteen altogether. ~ow, Mr. Speaker, 83513 ;

:Iay JO, 1978 Tape 3747 (~ight) EC - 3 :m. SU1l10!1S: thirteen is not twenty-five; fourteen is not twenty-five, and I say therefore, Mr.Speaker, I say first of all that the member knew the difference. Now if he did not know the difference, if he cannot count twenty-five let him stand up and admit that and I will withdraw my charge. But I assume he can count to twenty-five and if that is the case, Mr. Speaker,he has lied to the House.

He has informed the House there were twenty-five people in here at a given time when any of us who were here know that at most there were fifteen and perhaps as few as thirteen at the particular time. It was so close to it being a quorum or not being a quorum, ar. Speaker, that I was constrained to get a few more in here, particularly on the government side of the House. After all, it is the government's responsibility with thirty people on that side to keep at least thirteen or fourteen of them in the House. If they only have five there I am going to call a quorum no matter how many are sitting over here.

But on that particular occasion, Mr. Speaker - !IR. :WRGA!-i: :vhere are the rules? HR. SPEAKER: (Collins) l!R. SIMMONS: Order, please! - there were thirteen to fifteen at the most, and therefore, the member is lying to the House when he says there were twenty-five. That is just not true, Mr. Speaker. It is not true, and he should be asked to withdraw the false, lying information. And if not, I am prepared, Mr. Speaker, having, I believe, established my prima facie case, to move the appropriate motion that he be disciplined for lying to the House. SOHE HON. HEl!BERS: HR. SPEAKER: HR.

HICKMAN: SOME HON. ~EMBERS: Hear, hear! The han. House Leader. This is the most extraordinary - Oh, oh! 8359 ;

Hay 30, 1978 Tape 374 7 (Night) EC - 4 HR. SPEAKER: (Collins) Order, please! I recognized the hon. House Leader, and I Yould point out that it is a precedent in this House if one membe~ wishes to defer it

:!.:1y 30, l9iS (~ight.) Tape :1o. 3748 ~;:{ - 1 ;!?,.. SPEAKER. {DR. J. COLLI~S): to another this is in order. But .J.t this poi:J.t in tice I had recognized the han. House Lender. :!P.. NEARY: ~-1r. Speaker, :JR. HICJ%'.~: If the han. gentleman does not wish to spe.:1k, ::1r. Speaker, than you for recognizing me and I realize again on a point of privilege that Your Honour will not tolerate debate. But this, }fr. Speaker, is not a point of privilege. It is not even close to a point of privilege. The bon. gentleman from Grand Falls (Mr. Lundrigan) is making a perfectly valid point of order and he is - a perfectly valid point of order. He is giving his

interpretation of the number of ::~embers he saw in the Rouse at the time a quorum call was !Rsued and, !ir. Spealcer, it is the most extraordinary thing that I bave ever seen happen, an bon. member stands in this House and calls another han. gentleman a liar, which, Hr. Speaker, calls for the prompt intervention of the Chair and there was prompt intervention and there was no withdrawal thereof, and that the very, very most one can say is that the han. gentleman from Burgee -Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) is not prepared to say that there >-ms not a quorum here.

He was up to nine plus five, that is fourteen on both sides of the House and the han. gentleman for Grand Falls (~tr, Lundrigan) Y:as saying somethinp; more. Now apart altogether from what I have to say, and I concur \·lith what the han. gentleman said from St. John's East (~r. Marshall) that this House is deteriorating into a jungle and the language that we have seen in the last couple of minutes, Hr. Speaker, if we do nothing else we should oake good and sure that anyone who wants to see how democracy wo r:ts not come to this House. SO:ffi_ HON. ME1!BERS: Oh, oh! 8351

"!ay 30, 1978 \tR, Lt'":iDR!C:\.!1: !1R. SPEAKER: !1R. LUNDRIGAN: Tape No. 3748 NH - 2 Hr. Speaker on that question of privilege, The han. member for Grand Falls. ~r. Speaker, there is nobody who was not present in the House five minutes ago who could not attest to the clear, candid fact that there were tventy-five members present. SOME RON. !-!EMBERS: No. No • ~,!!\. LUNDRIGAN: 'ffi. SPEAKER: HR. LUliDR!GAN: - because I counted them. Order, please! Order, please! Mr.

Speaker, there is nobody who cannot attest in the House that the han. member when he stood in his place and called a quorum was absolutely out of order, that there was a clear unequivocal quorum in the House. MR. MORGAN: There was a quorum. HR. LUNDRIGAN: What he has really done effectively is he has abused me a little bit by calling me a liar, he can call me all he wants, I have been called a lot mare than that, even worse than what was on the tapes this afternoon, on a few given occasions. But it proves the altitude of the individual, the altitude of the individual, Mr. Speaker, to stand in his place - :1R. F.

WHITE: !-tR. LUNDRIGAN: Personal attacks. - and absolutely give the clear impression that he knew how many peoole were in the House. I have been here all night counting the peoole in the House for a variety of reasons, as a variety of han. members can attest, for a variety of reasons. I am totally, absolutely, I would lay my life on the line that there was a clear, undoubtable quorum in the House tonight. :m. MORGA.'l: Yes there was. !1R. LUNDRIGAN: Way beyond the quorum, Hr. Speaker, there were twenty-five members in this House. That is what I counted - ~IR. Sr~IO~S: i1R.

LUNDR!GAN: !here were not twentv-five. - Mr. Speaker, when the han. gentleman called a quroum. A.~d the reason I rose on a point of order which has became 8352 ;

:!ay 30, 1973 To.pe No. 3748 :rx - 3 :m. LUNDRICA}1: more substantive at the present ooment, was that the peoole of this Province \Jere being gypped their rights under a parliacentary system by having an han. member act as if he has got the autonomy and the hypocrisy to turn around and say now it is time to call a quorum and walks out and leaves the House. And all of his members walk out. !!!t. SPEAKER (DR. J. COLLINS: Order, please! ~tR. LU111JRIGAH: ~iow, ~r. Speaker, on the question of privilege .. !!R. SPEAKER (DR. J. COLLINS): OrCer, please! Order, please! '·0' •• S:t:C!.O~St Sit down boy~ Sit down~ !iR.

SPEAKER (DR. J. COLLINS): I think that we must keep distinct the point of privilege from the point of order and I feel the hon. member may have been getting into arguments in terms of point of order. I ;.rould ask the han. member to keep to the point of privilege, whether the han. member is justified in accusing the han. member ~n a question of lying. !·!R. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker, look it is quite simple. It is quite simple. It needs no interjection from me. The rule is clear and candid and there is no reason for me to interject or to stand for my rights. The hon. member has abused the rules.

He has also taken advantage of the fact that Your Honour is a diplomatic Chairman tonight to stand up and repeat his charges. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! XR. LUNDRIGAN: And repeat his charges, Your Honour. He is totally against every rule of the Legislature in his accusations against me. But, Mr. Speaker, I would suggest, leave it on the record and get on •,.rith the business. I would like this to stand on the record as an example of the way that that bon. gentleman as one, and several others. are trying to destroy the parliamentary system in this Province. Leave it on the record. 83S3

) May 30, 1973 Tape No. 3748 ~1M- 4 ~. SPS~R (DR. J. COLLINS): Order, please~ I have heard a number of submissions on this and I certainly do not wish to cut off anyone who wants to make substantial contributions but I would say that 83&4

:!ay 30,1978 Tape No, 3749 (Night) Al!-1 XR.. SPEAKER: (Dr. Collins) unless an bon. :nember has something very substautial to say it would be as well if this :natter was ruled upon. Ron. member for Conception Bay South. MR. NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, without in any way attempting to abuse your definition of substantial I merely have something to say.

There has been a charge that there were twenty-five members in the House of Assembly if we always assume as we must that all han. members are honourable members it can be settled very quickly new without even attempting to pass on the judgement to, Your Honour, that is all hon. members who were in the House when the quorum was called stand up and let us see if there were tventy-five and we will settle it that way. }fR. YORGAN: There was n ouorum present. MR. SPEAKER;{Dr.Collins) Hon. member for St. John's East. l!R. MARSEALL: Now, Hr.

Speaker, the member for Grand Falls (Mr.Lundrigan) may wish to,and I can understand his wish to let it go,but I do not think the House can let this go. Mr. Speaker, I refer you to Beauchesne - MR. NEARY: Page one. MR.. MARSHALL: I am addressing the bon. Speaker. tm. NEARY: Mr. Speaker is not a mind reader. MR. SPEAKER: (Dr.Collins) Order, please! MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I do not choose to have any discourse with the voice I am hearing from the other side. HR. SPEAKER: (Dr.Collins) Order,please! While there is a point of privilege before the Chair I will ask that only one member speak at a time. MR.

NEARY: That proves to be to the advanta~e of the hon.gp"T1PmP"• MR. SPEAKER: (Dr.Collins) Order, please! MR. MARSHALL: Hot the Bell Island Enquirer. MR. NEARY: He thinks he is at the Bull 1!1 1 Bear now. MR. MARSHALL: 108 (3) page 98 of Beauchesne. MR.SPEAKER: (Dr.Collins) What was the citation? 83\:;5 ;

May 30, 1978 Tape No. 3749 (Night:) AH-2 MR. MARSHALL: 108(3) on page 98. I will leave cbe judgement: cbe bon. member has already passed by che bon. che Chief Justice Hr. Mifflin. MR. NEARY: Justice will triumph. MR. MARS BALL: Page 98 108(3). "Libels on members have also been constantly punished: but to constitute a breach of privilege they must concern the character or conduct of members in that capacity." Now wbat greater libel can there be chan to say that a member has stated a lie. It is further.on, Mr. Speaker, I think you have already alluded to it tonight under the rules of debate.

I will find it here now in a moment. I know what the statement says, the statement says, "It is not out of order to say a statement is untrue" Yes, here it is, page 130 of Beauchesne, paragraph 154(5) "It is not unparliamentary to say that a statement is untrue, but it is unparliamentary to say that it vas untrue to the knowledge of the member addressing the House." Now, Mr.

Speaker, I have to put this to, Your Honour, that if a member of this House is going to be allowed to say any other member lied under any guise whatsoever without being sharply drawn to order on the matter, immediately and required to withdraw it unequivocally that all this place is going to turn into is really going to be a beer garden and perhaps it has decended to it right now.

But this is one of the prime rules in parliamentary debate, that you cannot call another member of this House a liar.without withdrawing it and withdrawing it immediately at the instigation of the Chair without any ifs, buts or ands, whatso ever otherwise the whole procedure, Mr. Speaker, breaks down. And while the han. member - and I can understand his feelings may not care from whom the barb is caste, because as they say we know a man's character by the character of his enemies, Mr. Speaker.

The fact is that this is an abuse , an abysmal abuse of the rules of this House and in the interest of the future operation of this House in accordance with British parliamentary practice I say the bon. gentleman has to withdraw and withdraw without equivocation whatsoever. MR. SPEAJ(ER: (Dr.Collins) Han. Leader of the Opposition. 8358 ;

May 30,1978 Tape No. 3749 (Night) :\H-3 MR,W,ROWE: Mr. Speaker, Your Honour, was sitting in the Chair and saw how many members were in this han. House at the time that my colleague rose and said that there was no quorum which is his undeniable right to do, nobody disputes that. And the fact that he may rise and call a quorum when there is a quorum in the House or a quorum not in the House is not the subject of a point of order.Everyone has the right to call a quorum and have the matter ~culated and ascertained. Rising on a specious point of order the member for Grand Falls (Mr.

Lundrigan) states or tries to state that the han. member for Burgee-Bay D'Espoir (Mr. S~ns) does not have the right to rise and call a quorum or to call a quorum at any time which is his undeniable right to do. And in order to substantiate a specious point of order to begin with he makes an a*legation or makes a statement as to how many people were in the House at the time that my han. colleague mentioned the quorum. He said there were at least twenty-five 8367 ;

~'ay 30, 19i8 (iHght) Tape ~o, 3750 which was clearly an untrue statement. Your Honour knows that. Everyone in the House knows it. ! happened to be sitting outside, I know it, It was an untrue st.:J.tement. ~1y han. colleague feels that it is a breach of the privileges of this House for an bon, member, the member for Grand Falls (Mr. Lundrigan) to rise and to make this untrue statement. He characterized it as a lie. In other words an untruth, known to be an untruth at the time it was stated.

He raises this as a breach of the privileges of this House he seems to make a prima facie case for Your Honour to decide ~;rhether a point of privilege or the privile~es of this House are in fact involved. Now Your Honour has to decide whether there is a prima facie case of breach of privilege here.

I would submit, Sir, that there is a prima facie case of breach of privilege. 1f Your Honour so decides then I would understand tdthout having conferred 1·ith my colleague, his willing_ to make a motion that the han. member be dealt with by this House for breachin~ the privileges of the Rouse, uttering an untruth at a time and in a way in which he knew that an untruth js. being uttered by himself, Now, Hr. Speaker, the way Your Honour has to decide this is usin~ Your Honour's discretion and judgement in the matter.

Your Honour has to decide whether in fact there were twenty-five members in the House or anywhere near twenty- five members in the House at the time, whether any hon, member, reasonable han. member, could in fact have misconstrued or miscalculated so badly that he thou~ht there were twenty-five members in this House or whether in fact Your Honour believes that the han. t::etlber was either deliberately misleading the House, that the privileges of the P~use are so involved by an attempt to lie or deliberately mislead 8358

~b.y 30, 1978 Tape ~o. 3i50 rtH- 2 ~!R. tt. ROWE: the House to make a specious point of order. If Your Honour comes co the conclusion that the privileges of the House are involved by his statement, by his untrue statement, that there is a prima facie case, that the privileges of this Rouse are involved by a member getting up, abusing the orders and rules of ttis House, makin~ an untrue statement to substantiate a sp•cious point of order, then Your Honour has very little choice but to rule that there is a prima facie case of breach of privilege.

I would submit that Your Honour has ~le authority, precedent and evidence 1 the evidence of his own senses, to rule that there is a prima facie case of breach of privilege of this House, that the han. member for Grand Falls (Mr. Lundri2an) uttered an untrue statement, And that this is a prima face case of breach of privilege. Your Honour does not have co go any further than that. Your Honour does not have to name the han. member.

Your Honour does not have ~o do anything else, Your Honour only has to make the prima facie ruling that the privileges of the House are involved and my han. colleague and I, and others on this side of the House, will then be prepared to make the substantive motion to deal with the callous disregard of the rules and privileges of this House by that hoc. member. SOME HON. >!EMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (DR. J. COLLINS): Order, please! ~ffi. HI~L\N: What the han. the Leader of the Opposition has just said - SOME RON. MEMBERS: Dh, oh! HR. SPEAKER (DR. J. COLLINS): Order. please! Again I would just - HR.

NEARY: Sit down when the Speaker calls order. Sit down. XR. SPEAKER (DR. J. COLLINS): I would just reiterate the point that to make sure that the whole matter does not become confused and difficult 83S3

) ~ay 30, 1978 Tape No. 3750 ~. SPEAKER (DR. J. COLLI!IS): to unravel that submissions certainly will be welcomed by the Chair but I would encourage members to cake sure that these are substantial points. ~. HICK:!AN: ~. NEARY: MR. HICKMA.f.{: The hon. House Leader. I simply give to Your Honour a citation. The second time. 102 - t do not ~,ow how many points of privilege we have before the House now. l!R. NEARY: ~. HICK¥JL~: The han. gentleman from St. John's East :t'M - 3 (~r. Marshall) was talking about the use of very unparliamentary language from the han. gentlemen opposite.

There is the point of alleged privilege with respect to the number of people in the House and I direct Your Honour's attention to Beauchesne 102, paragraph 113, ''1·!embers often raise so-called 'questions of privilege' an matters •.vhich should be dealt with as personal explanations or corrections, either in the debates or the proceedings of the House. A qucsrion of privilege ought rarely 83'.?0

:lay 30, 1978 Tape 3751 (Night) :c - l ~!R. HICKHAN: to come up in Parliament." And then it goes on to deal vith the various kinds. But I draw Your Honour's attention about half way down that paragraph - ''But a dispute arising between two members as to allegations of facts,'' and this most assuredly constitutes allegations of facts, ''does not fulfil\the conditions of parliamentary privilege." And, Mr. Speaker, I realize we had to deal with the other question later. HR. WELLS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: (Collins) The hon. the member for Kilbride. HR. WELLS: Mr.

Speaker, the point here is a very - HR. :iEARY: You are out of order. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Kilbride was recognized by the Chair. HR. HELLS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the point here is a very, very narrow and clear one. The pain~ is this, it does not matter for the purpose of this discussion whether there were twenty-five members in the House or two members in the House. What is at issue here, Mr. Speaker, is that the han. the member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) has called another member of the House, namely, the member for Grand Falls (Mr. Lundrigan) a liar.

Now Beauchesne, page 130,

Section 155 says, ''It will be useful to give examples here of expressions which are unparliamentary and call for prompt interference. These may be classified as follows:

(1) The imputation of false or unavowed motives;

(2) The misrepresentation of the language of another , etc.; and (3) - here is the one, Mr. Speaker - Charges of uttering a deliberate falsehood.'' Now that is a lie. That is the 83'71.

May 30, 1978 Tape 3751 (Night) EC - 2 an.. \JELLS: word for a deliberate falsehood. The han. member made that charge. He has made it since two or three times. Your Honour asked him to withdraw and he has refused. 3o one asked me. HR. WELLS: Your Honour asked him to withdraw and he has refused. MR. SPEAKER: (Collins) Order, please! MR. WELLS: Now I am making my submission, Hr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! HR. WELLS: Your Honour asked him to withdraw and he refused. Now that is the issue before the Chair. When that issue is dealt with, Mr.

Speaker, then we can discuss the matter of whether the Grand Falls member was mistaken or whatever. But the word 'lie' is not permitted in Parliament 1 !lr, Speaker - MR. NEARY: !!R. SPEAKER: MR. WELLS: withdraw and refused. MR. NEARY: HR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: Sit down and do not be making a fool of yourself. Order, please! - and he has been ordered to Hr. Speaker. The bon. the member for LaPoile. Mr. Speaker, the han. gentleman, Sir, who just spoke, obviously, Sir, forgets where he is at the present time.

The han. gentleman is not down before judge and jury, the hon. gentleman is in the Legislature of this land, the highest court of the land where we operate in a half democratic way, and Your Honour, the hon. gentleman, the instant constitutional expert feels that the issue is that my han. friend called my hon. friend a liar. 83'72 ;

Xay 30, 1978 Tape 3751 (!light) EC - 3 HR. !lEARY: My han. friend, Sir, has made a prima facie case for a breach of the privilege of this House. AN !ION. MEMBER: llR. NEARY: Right. That is the issue that the Speaker has to rule on, not whether my friend used unparliamentary language, because the only way that my han. colleague could make his case, as the han. the Premier knows - and the han. the Premier should come in the Rouse more often and show a little leadership, because - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! As I mentioned, I would have to rule that the submission should be substantial.

There should not be side issues. ~!R. NEARY: Well, I think really, Hr. Speaker, the breakdown is that there is no leadership on the other side and everybody is jumping up all over the place. The han. the Premier should be here to speak for his side of the House or delegate the responsibility and the authority to the Government Rouse Leader, because ~hat started it all was lack of leadership - members jumping up helter-skelter all over the place. But the real issue, Sir, before Your Honour is whether or not my colleague has a prima facie case that the member for Grand Falls (Mr.

Lundrigan) did indeed deliberately - AN HON. ~!EMBER: Raise a point of privilege. MR. NEARY: Point of privilege - ~id indeed deliberately, to try to justify his case, mislead the House by saying that there were twenty-five members in the House when in actual fact there were probably around thirteen or fourteen cembers in the House. That is the issue, Sir. 8373 ;

>Iay 30, 1978 Tape 3751 (~ight) EC - 4 XR, NEARY: And my hen. friend from Kilbride somehow or other thinks that Your Donour directed the member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) to withdraw, and Your Honour has made it abundantly clear. AN HON. MEMBER: That is right. HR. ~EARY: Will the member for Kilbride (Mr. Wells) get this - the Speaker did not ask the member for Burgee- Bay d'Espoir to retract at any time or withdraw or apologize or anything else. Your Honour merely expressed a view, an opinion, and did not direct my hon. friend to withdraw anything.

My hon. friend does have a strong case, Sir, and Your Honour may need a few minutes, by the way, to go out and consult with Hansard or to think it over, and we are quite prepared on this side of the F.ouse, Sir, to agre~ to that if Your Honour wants to do it. I do cot think it 8374 llut, Sir, ;

May 30, 1978 Tape 3752 PK • 1 Mr. Nearv: is a kind of a situation where a snap decision must be made, everybody must now speak, but we seem to be going back and forth and everybody shall have an opportunity to speak on this breach of privilege. AN HON. MEMBER: They got about a dozen over there. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): Order, please! I thank han. members for their submissions, and I feel that this is a serious matter. But I also am of the opinion that it is ground that has been covered before. We are in an area of fairly recent precedents.

I think the first matter that has to be dealt with is whether unparliamentary language can be used in making a point of privilege. I think this is an important matter to settle before anything else. I would direct hon. members attention to Beauchesne,

Section 111, which states as follows: 11 The journals of the United Kingdom House of Coi11Tions11 , and as han. members know we first would go to our o\'m Standing Orders, then we \>IOuld go to the authorities that are usually used, and in our particular case, it is Beauchesne, and even though Beauchesne quotes the United Kingdom House of Commons, which is, shall we say, down the line in terms of the authorities we go to, the fact that it is quoted by Beauchesne, think, it is legitimate to consider at this time.

It gives the following examples of speeches and writings which have been held to constitute breaches of privilege. And it states a number one of which is imputations against members of corruption in the execution of their duties. Now in my

interpretation this clearly means that if one is to make a charge of breach of privilege you have to state that a serious matter has happened such as you have to charge a member with corruption. And that was the example I cited. I therefore would consider that charging a ~erson with lying is in the same area. And if you can therefore in making a point of privilege charge someone with corruption, I think, it is clear that in making a point of privilege you can charge someone with lying. 8375 ;

May 30, 1978 Tape 3752 (Night) MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): So I think that the hon. member therefore is not outside our rules or outside privilege in stating a point of privilege in making a charge, SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! riR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): -which in other circumstances would be clearly aut of order. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! t~R. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS) But within the SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PK - 2 MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS) Order, please!

But within the context of making a point of privilege, I think, that it is implicit that a charge of some sort has to be made, and the citation I mentioned, I think, is the type of charge that can be made,and the charge there, one of corruption is clearly a very gross one. And I would think, therefore, the charge of lying would certainly fall within that general ambit. Having settled that point, the next point to settle, I think, does a prima facie case or privilege exist? And I would direct han. members to Beauchesne,

Section 105, Subsection {3) of the third paragraph thereof, and it states as follows: "A dispute arising between two han. members as to allegation of facts hardly fullfils the condition of a privilege question 11 , and it goes on from there. And also in the

section that was cited by the han. House Leader,

Section 108, Subsection (3), which states - no I am sorry - t~R. HICKMAN: 113 MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): 113, yes, which states as fallows: "Members often raise so-called''questians of privilegenon matters which should be dealt with as personal explanations or corrections", and so on. aA question of privilege ought rarely to come up in Parliament. It should be dealt with by a motion giving the Hause power to impose a reparation or apply a remedy. 11 And further down, 11 But a dispute arising between two members, as to allegations of facts, does not fulfill the conditions of parliamentary privilege. 11 I think that these two authorities quite clearly

May 30, 1978 Tape 3752 (Night) PK - 3 MR. SPEAKER (OR. COLLINS): points out that if we are dealing merely with facts, privilege as such cannot be the issue at hand. i 8377

May 30, 1978, Tape 3753, Page 1 -- apb Night MR. SPEAKER(Co11ins): In the absence of our keeping continual count, or perhaps in some photographic means, there clearly is no way that the numbers of han~ members who are in the House at any point in time, unless a count is taking place at that time, there is no way that the numbers in the House can be ascertained. I am not in a position myself, nor would it be proper for me to put myself in that position, to state the numbers that were in the House when a quorum was called, certainly not in any precise number.

And despite the reasonings that I heard in submissions as to numbers of members in one caucus and numbers in another, and numbers of members who clearly were not here because they were away elsewhere, I do not hold or do not feel that these reasonings were sufficient to pin down the numbers with any certitude and I would so rule that this is a matter of dispute as to facts and facts which cannot in any way, to my knowledge, be proven with any certainty.

In other words, it would be an impossibility to assert whether there were twenty-five, twenty-four, twenty-six, twenth-three, eighteen, sixteen, whichever number one wishes to consider, to ascertain with absolute certainty the numbers of han. members in the House when the quorum was called so that we are therefore left with a c1isnute !-Jee.;reen t<Jo han. ner..bers not a t:lOint of privilege As that is the case I would ask the han. member if in the light of these facts, and in the light of the discussion that has gone on, and in the light of the impossibility, in my view, of proceeding further, I would ask the han. member if he would withdraw the remark 'lying' which unless a point of privilege were proven - and therefore the whole matter would have to be debated - in view of the ruling that this is not proven or, in my view, cannot be proven, I would ask, therefore, that the han. member would withdraw the remark that the han. member lied. 8378 ;

May 30, 1978, Tape 3753, Page 2 -- apb HR. SIHHONS: Mr. Speaker, I was probably being a little too forthright with the House and I should have said that he uttered a complete untruth. I therefore withdraw the term 'lying' because it is unparliamentary. SOHE HON. HEHBERS: Hear, hear! MR. LUNORIGAN: To ny point of order, Your Honour. Night MR. SPEA.~ER(Collins): Is the hon. member rising on a point of order? MR. LUNORIGAN: My point of order, Your Honour,is that the - MR. SPEAKER(Collins) : A point of order. MR. LUNORIGAN: - as I was starting to say earlier on in my remarks - MR.

NEARY: Do not be wasting the time of the House. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker, the han. gentleman when he stood in his place today to challenge the statement that I made that there were twenty-five members present - somebody on this side said that he thought there were twenty-three, somebody else said twenty-one - the hon. members, both across the way, the han. member who called the quorum and the hon. House Leader who got up and spoke on the question of privilege, both admitted that there was a quorum present in the Legislature at the time. What is your point of order? State it. SOHE HON. HEHBERS: No, no. DR.

FARRELL: Order! Order! ''1(,. S • ~JEA?Y: There is no point of privilege. MR. SPEAKER(Collins) : Order, please! Order! SOHE HON. !1EHBERS: Oh, oh! OR. FARRELL: Order! Order! MR. SPEAKER(Collins): Order, please! Order, please! 8373 ;

May 30, 1978, Tape 3753, Page 3 -- apb MR. SPEAKER( Collins) : I understand the han. member as speaking to the original point of order with regard to a quorum. MR. LIJNDRIGAN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, and I was interrupted twice with questions of privilege. My point of order, Your Honour, is that I think the people of our Province are being gypped by the tactics that a member can stand in his place and know that there is a quorum present in the House, call a quorum, remove themselves from the presence of the House to have a quorum forced on the House, Mr. Speaker, I think, Mr.

Speaker, it is about time that that type of member got cracked on the knuckles for slapping the teeth the people of this Province here today. That is the point of order I have. :-:eep yl)ur cool, MR. LIJNDRIGAN: You wait and see who is cool. MR. SPEAKER(COLLINS): Is the hen. the Leader of the Opposition speaking on the point of order? MR. W.N.ROWE: Oh yes, Mr. Speaker, if I may. MR. NEARY: If the han. member for Grand Falls (Mr. Lundrigan) will allow him, Sir. MR. W.N.ROWE: By calling it a point of order, Mr. Speaker, is gracing it with a connotation that does not exist at all.

Sir, it is the clear, undoubted right, as I mentioned earlier, for any member of this House to call a quorum at any time. As Your Honour said, these matters are not subject to calculation or scientific analysis on the spur of the moment, it is the undoubted right to call a quorum at any time whether there are one hundred members in the House or two members in the House and have that matter ascertained, whether there is a quorum or not. That is the undoubted right of any member of this House, point number one, Sir. 8380

) May 30, 1978, Tape 3753, Page 4 -- apb MR. W.N.ROWE: Point number two: Our Standing orders, Sir, clearly state that no one has to stay in the House when the matter of a quorum is being ascertained. The person who calls the quorum or calls that a count 8382

:ray 30, 1973 (~lighr) Tape ~To. 3754 N!--1- 1 ~!R. W, ROHE: for a quorum to be taken is under no obligation to remain in the Houqe, ~!r. Speaker. So, Sir, this point of order, like so many more by this in some ways pitiful hon. ~£mbers across the House there, the r::.e~er for Grand Falls (Hr. Lundrigan) - ~!R. SDn-!ONS: Bagman. Bas:;m.an. :m.. t:. ROWE: - Sir, is specious, without foundation of any kind, rising, Sir, in some way to gain attention or something - ~!R. R. HOORES: Press coverage. :,nt.. W. ROWE: - hoping to get a little press coverage perhaps by the fact that he is present in the House.

I do not know what the problem is with the han. member. Is his vision obscured by problems of egoism or something, I do not know, Hr. Speaker. All I know is that it is an abuse of the privileges of this House to allow that han. member to get up day after day, hour after hour, Sir- :!R. F. WHITE: Interrupt the House for hours. MR. W. ROWE: - and raise these specious points of order, interrupt the course of business of the House, Sir, for a good hour now on this nonsense - SOHE HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! ~,m., H. ROWE: -Hr.

Speaker, and piously bleat out something to the effect that we are insulting the intelli~enee of the people of }lewfoundland or wasting the time of the people of Newfoundland, Sir, uhen it is he, that han. eember, who is abusing the privileges of this House by rising on these specious, usless points of order, Sir, which have no foundation, no substance whatsoever, Sir, and I would ask Your Honour to rule that there is no point of order and to say directly to the han. member that he should not rise on his specious points of order for whatever obscure reason he might have for doing so. SO~ HON.

MUIDERS: Hear, hear! 8382

~!ay 30, 1978 Tape :lo. J754 ~. SPEAKER (DR. J. COLLINS): The hon. member for St, John 1 s North. ~- J. CARTER: ~r. Speaker, to that point of order and there is a further matter that should be brought up, a further point that should be made. That is that if a member calls a quorum t,.hen there is clearly no quorum present and there are -=nembers in this Rouse who will guarantee that there was well in excess of a quorum here, now ~y point is this, that if a member calls a quoruc under those circumstances and then leaves the House, leaves his place, the member was speaking, I suggest, Mr.

Speaker, that the member has forfeited his right to continue. It is the same as if he ceased to speak. Now I can ~11 understand, Mr. Speaker - MR. NEARY: But if you leave the savoury patch, do you give up the right to go back again1 MR. J. CARTER: ~1r. Speaker, I wonder could you protect me from Darwin's delight over there? MR. SPEAKER (DR. J. COLLINS), Order, please! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (DR. J. COLLINS): Order, please! There is a point of order before the Chair so a submission should be on the point of order rather than bringing up any other matter. the han. member for St. John's North.

MR. J. CARTER: That is right on this point, Mr. Speaker. But I can understand an bon. member calling a quorum lf there is some doubt, if there was fourteen, fifteen or say sixteen ?COple. I am well aware that the bon. member cannot count and in this case does not count. But there is no question about it that there was clearly "•ell in excess of a quorum end I su3s:.est that he. has forfeited his right to speak by ceasinsz to speak and moreover leaving the Chamber and I think, :-!r. Speaker, that this point should be ruled on quite vi~orously on because otherwise a member may delay - obviously the member, 83S3

::ay JO, 1973 Tape ~io. 3754 ~8.. J , CARTER; havin2 spoken for about four days not•, :u:o is looking for any excuse to drag out his speech, anything will do, even noticing a fly on the wall would be sufficient excuse for the member to delay thi~ House. AN RON. ME>!BER: He spoke for twelve hours. ~m. SP~~R (DR. J. COLLINS): Order, please!

Again I think t!-!at this is a ::~atter on which a ru!imc can be made. ::;ow if i1on. members :1ave something very substantial I '~.Till hear it but I must insist that at this point in time, because a lot of time has passed, if there is not a very substantial point being made, rather than reiteration of previous points, I will have to intervene. The han. member for LaPoile. ~-!R. NEARY: Hr. Speaker, my point 1 Sir, is very substantia! indeed, that the han. member for Grand Falls (Hr.

Lundrigan), Sir, in my opinion is abusin2 the rules of the House by raisin~ these points of order and merely to draw attention to himself, Sir, and as I saiJ earlier, Mr. Speaker, the real problem on the government side of the House - ~m. SPEAKER (DR. J. COLLINS): Order, please! I do have to intervene. I am hearing phrases that I have heard very recently and I would ask the hon. member to abide by my instruction if he would, that if he has a new substantial point to make, I would be glad to hear it. ,m. NEARY: ~lell, Mr. Speaker, my substantial point.

Sir. is this, that the hon. member, Sir, keeps interrupting my hon. friend here and keeps accusin~ my han. friend, which is a very sErious matter, of delayinR the proceedings of the House, when in actual fact it is the member who is raising these so-called points of order who is delaying - Hy han. friend could have finished his speech by ten thirty if my hon. friend had not gotten the House in an ~proar. 8384

Tape No. 3755 (Night) AH-1 11ay JD,l978 MR. NEARY: So I would say, Sir, that there is no point of order, Mr. Speaker, it is just a difference of opinion between a couple of members. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, to that point of order. MR. SPEAKER: (Dr.Collins) Government House Leader. MR. HICKMAN: I draw to, Your Honour's attention 4(

a) of the rules of Standing Orders. 4(a)"Any member may direct the Speaker's attention to the fact that there is not a quorum present. "so that imposes upon the han. gentleman standing, he cannot stand up and look around and say, Mr. Speaker, there is not a quorum present and then have three or four members scurry out off the House. The scurrying has to be done in advance of it being directed to the attention of the House because when the bon. gentleman - and this rule has been followed ever since I have been a member, when an bon. member stands up and says, Mr.

Speaker, I draw to your attention there is not a quorum in the House it has to be factual that there are less than fourteen in the House. A.~ HON. !!EMBER: Hear, hear! MR. HICI<MAII: And that, Mr. Speaker, I submit is very germane to the issue that is before the House on this point of order.

The same precedure is laid down except the method of counting is different in parliament because Beauchesne of 61 says again 11Any member may direct the speaker's attention to the fact that there is not a quorum in the House." and that imposes the obligation upon any hon. gentleman in standing in the House calling for a quorum the first assurer that in this House there is less than fourteen 1 if there is not he cannot count and anyone who scurries out there after is - you know that is not only not playing the rules of the House but Your Honour would be quite right in counting them as having been in th~ House at the time of the quorum call.

S0!1E HON. MEHBERS : Hear, h<;;ar! MR. SPEAKER: (Dr.Collins) Han. member for Burgee-Bay D•Espoir. 8385

Hay 30,1978 !ape No. 3755 (Night) AH-2 HR. SI!1l10NS: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Justice very conveniently quotes only part of

section 4, 4(b), }~. Speaker, our Standing Orders 4(

b) says :!A member need not remain after notice that a quorum is nee present." Now he talks about scurrying out of the House. ~1R. HICKMAN: "After giving," You left out the word11giving." MR. SIMMONS: I am sorry. I did not mean to. "A member nef!.d not remain in the House after giving notice that a quorum is not present." Under the rules of the House, Mr. Speaker, there is no onus on me to remain in the House. Alright! He talks about scurrying out. I left I thought rather gracefully, Hr. Speaker. After looking over - I think it is my obligation, Mr.

Speaker, and 1 think I exercised it ~ell, it is my obligation to let the Province know. If the member for Grand Falls Q{r. Lundrigan) wants to tell the Province things tell the Province that only five members out of thirty on the government side of the House were sitting in their places when I called a quorum .• SOliE HON. MEIIBERS: That is ri~tht. HR. SIMMONS: Only five out of tldrty. That is true. And, ~x. Speaker, I looked around and in a quick count I saw either eight or nine counting myself. Eight and five are thirteen, nine and five are fourteen. MR.

HICKMAN: Ask the bon. gentleman who called the quorum did the other eight gentleman decide to go out MR. SIMMONS: Well there is nothing wrong with that, Hr. Speaker. HR. HICKMAN: ¥!ith some speed. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, with my leaving and I believe even without my leaving there was not a quorum present and therefore, Mr. Speaker, was obliged to do as (

d) requires that he shall cause the bells to be rung. There is no rule here saying that people that we~e here when the quorum was called would have to stay in the chamber during the intervening period, that is ridiculous in the extreme, of course it is. We are quite in the habit here, Mr. Speaker, when there is an intervening 8356

Xay 30,1978 Tape No. 3755 (Night) All-3 llit. SU!}10NS: perio4, a lull in the business or we are waiting for time to count the House that individual members valk out of the House and then come back in as the case may be. MR.J.CARTER: Hoisted by your own petard. MR. SIMMONS: Now, Hr. Speaker, I vas not hoisted by any petard at all. there were thirteen members, Mr. Speaker, thirteen members in this House to my knowledge - AN HON. MEHBER: They are walking out on you. Look they are all laugning at you. MR. SPE.AKE.R: Order, please! HR. SIMMONS: Now, Hr.

Speaker • the real point- that we have made by this quorum call is that only five of thirty members on the government side were sitting in the Chamber, only five of thirty. there was not a quorum in the House, Hr. Speaker, and there being not a quorum in the House it was my duty, Mr. Speaker, under 4(

a) to bring it to Mr. Speaker's attention. If Mr. Speaker thought that I had acted improperly he could have and should have I suggest immediately informed the House a quorum was present and did not do that. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for St. John's East. HR. MARSH.ALL: Mr. Speaker, look the rules are taken in Standing Order 4 on quorum and there is no doubt that a member need not remain in the House when he calls a quorum and any member may direct to the Speaker's attention the fact that there is not a quorum present as the House Leader has said.

But I also refer Your Honour to Standing Order 4(d)which says that"When the Speaker's attention has been directed to the fact that there is not a quorum present 7the Speaker shall cause the bells to be rung. Now I would submit, Your Honour, that really what that means is that any member could direct I could direct Your Honour's attention to the fact, just say now there is not a quorum present but Your Honour has to look and see. His attention has to be directed to the fact. That I say it does not direct Your Honour's attention to the fact 8387

•:n.v 30, 1978 Tape 3756 C':i~ht Se~sion} m:- 1 :m. ;::\?SHALL: that there is not a quorum present it would be sort of ludicrous you could bring ~~e proceedings of the House to anybody who wished to, If I wish to say all I could do every time get up and say there is not a quorum present so we ;.rill ring the bells for three minutes all throu~h the day and when we come back I ~ill say it again. ~~ point iS the purpose of that particular Stariding Or1er there, Standin9 -Jrder 4 and particularly t. (cl) is that, \-.'hen your attention is called to the fact that there is not a quorun, Your Honour. ascertains by looking around the House quickly whether or not there is a quorum. tf there is obviously a quorum present he does not ring the bells.

And if the han., member tlho calls the quorum chooses to go out of the House then another member may rise and be recognized. The fact of the matter is. Your Honour, it has to be that way or othe~tise the proceedings of the :!ouse could be rerlucerl to a complete nbsurdity. In other Horrls if I say nou it requires two things n nember. directs the .::l.ttention of the !louse to the effect that there is a quorum but the seconcl step is that, Your Honour, has to then detemine by l~;~okinfl" around and if it is nhunrlnntly clear t~at there is a ~1mrum prer;ent we just continue on Nitl-t the proceeriings of the House.

That is the uav it goes. A~! llO~i. ~T~ffiFR: \.fR. "ARSHALL: 'ffi. SPF:\KER(COLLD!S): Is thnt right? Yes. f1kay? Or.cler, please! I thin~ that this matter may re clarified if I read pnrts of StnndinP Order 4 in total, that is sub-section (a), (':.J) • and (d), (

c) does not applJ!. 4 (

a) reads a,; follo;,;s; "Any member t:!ay direct the :::peal:er's nttention to the fact that there is not a quorum present" .:row clearly this means that the member in his view feels that less than fourteen is present in the House the onus perhaps is on the hon. mernl:ler to rr:ake a count before~ and but I do not knoH if it is t!te Chair's business 8388

':ay 31, 1:!78 Tape J 756 CHght Session) to assut:1e that the hon. rember is absolutely accurate in his count. 4 {

b) states as follows; ,,A oember need not remain in the House after giving notice that a quorum is not present. ;~

interpretation of that would be that if it requires the member's absence or removing himself from the !!ouse to validate the non-quorum that our rules would make that in order I t!::ink t~at can the only sense that could be tnl:cn as of that rule or that sub rule being in there if it did not r.:ean that ! can see no reason why such a point should be ~ade. So, from that it would seem to me that in reducing the number in the House to below fourteen requires the hon, member of bringing the matter to the Chair's attention leaving t1hen he is vithin his rig~ts ::o do so and this would constitute 'loss of quorum.

And then in (d); ''l~en the Speaker's attention has been directed to the fact that there is not a quorum present, the Speaker shall cause the !Jells to be rung and shall cause the count to commence ~,:hen three ::~inutc.s ~ave elapsed after the ringing of the bell." It dnes not state there that the member himself should make a count at that point when his attention is directed to the fact that there is not: a quorUJ:l present the rule states that the Speaker should ring the bell and commence a count at a later ooin t.

So the rule seer.s to me to imply this that if a quorum is stated not to be present and there clearly is a quorum present, in other words 4 (!J} does not come into effect if it clearly is a quorum present I think it would be ~uite within the r::~air' s right to make that cor:::.:.ent and allow the debate to continue. If on the other hand a r:etnber removes hit:'self from the House and at that point in time by his removing hill'.self from the Rouse at that point in time a quorum is not present I think there is nothing for the ~1air to do but to ring the bells as 4 (

d) states, :·low at the point that the quorun', •,;as called the hon. rnet1her directed the Chair's attention t!1e quorun was not present and then left the Eouse. 'lml I ar:t nuare thnt other 8383

:·ay 3:1, 1978 Tape 3756 (Night Session) "R· SrEAKEa(COLLI>lS): nernbers left with hi~ ~ut at t~e point in time that he left the House there "~<;as less in ny view than a quorum ?resent so that the Chair tmless it was nerely to state an untrnth, in other words that a quorum was present 8390 DP- '3

May 30, 1978 Tape 3757 (Night) PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER (OR. COLLINS): The Chair was placed in a position that I had to say that a quorum was not present or at least had to make the statement let the bells be rung and the members come in. In other words, at that point in time it would have been impossilbe for the Chair to make the statement that a quorum is present, when the han. member by leaving, and incidentially other members leaving with him left the House without a quorum, there was no alternative. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (OR.

COLLINS): And I ~<ould say though that on that matter I do not feel that there was any other alternative, but clearly it would be specious for members to say a quorum is not present, when self-evidentially and from that point on there continued to be a quorum present. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The han. the member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir. MR. NEARY: A point of order, Sir. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): A point of order has come up. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, during the time, Sir, that the hon. the member for Grand Falls (Mr.

Lundrigan) was talking about the dignity and the decorum of the House in raising a so-called point of order, Sir, the han. member used the lowest form of unparliamentary language, Sir. And Your Honour will remember that the member for Grand Falls accused my han. colleague, and I want to refer Your Honour by the way to Page 131 of Beauchesne, Section (2), accused my colleague here, Sir, of'insulting the House and insulting the people of the Pro vi nee .• And just go down Your Honour to 1, 2, 3, 4, and Your Honour will see~that his remarks are insulting to the House and to the country~are unparliamentary. MR. W.

ROWE: And must be 'Jithdra>m. MR. NEARY: And must be withdra~<n, Sir. AN HON. MEMBER: Be serious. MR. NEARY: beg your pardon? AN HON. MEMBER: Be serious. El38:1

May 30, 1978 Tape 3757 (night) IB-2 MR. NEARY: No, this is a valid and a serious point of order. My hon. friend from Grand Falls (Mr. Lundrigan) did say that, did make that charge that the remarks of my han. friend, his behaviour. his remarks and so forth were not only insulting to the House but an insult to the people of the Province, the country in other words. That is unparliamentary, Sir, and I would ask Your Honour to ask the member for Grand Falls to withdraw these remarks. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. House leader. MR. HICKMAN: Mr.

Speaker, that point of order is frivolous and vexatious inter alia because Your Honour will recall that on that same point of order the hon. gentleman for Trinity-Bay de Verde (Mr. F. Rowe) rose in his place read that section, that provision to Your Honour. .A,t the same time it was drawn to Your Honour1s attention t1e provisal in sub paragraph (4) of 154 which saYS"It is not out of order to say that a member has obstructed the business of the House or that a speech is a abuse of the rules of the House." Your Honour has already made a ruling on that and it has been dealt with.

To raise it again is not only specious7 nat only frivolous, not only vexatious but demeaning to this Hause. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MR. F. ROWE: Sir, to that point of order. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. MR. F. ROWE: It was my understanding, Sir, that - I'Jhile was speaking to the point of privilege at the time and Your Honour disregarded that particular reference because it was a separate and a different thing because we were considering the word 1 abuse1 at the particular time. That is the only reason why - Your Honour did not rule on that particular citation MR. HICKMAN: He did.

MR. F. ROWE: No, no, no. Your Honour did not rule on that particular citation, Mr. Speaker, because it was a different point of privilege. MR. PECKFORD: You are a11 mixed up. MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, am not all mixed up. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh~ 83;32

May 30, 1978 Tape 3757 (night) MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. F. ROWE: Your Honour, Sir, I submit, ruled - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. SIMMONS: Straight from Beauchesne. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hen. member has difficulty making his remarks. IB-3 MR. F. ROWE: Yes ! am, Mr. Speaker. Your Honour, Sir, ruled quite clearly and specifically on only one thing and that was the question of the use of the word 1 abuse 1 at that particular time and you disregarded completely my reference to that particular citation because it was a different reference and a different point of order.

And now it is being resurrected at this particular time. It is a different point of order, Sir, and Your Honour has not ruled on that particular point of order. And this is a clear case of where a citation is made. There is nothing vexatious about it whatsoever or frivolous or anything else. It is one of the few occasions, Sir, when a person gets up on a point of order and makes a direct citation from Beauchesne. MR. PECKFORD: Sit down. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I am not going to sit do;m for the 'Walrus• from Green Bay over there just because he says so. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! It has been alleged that the han. member made certain remarks, that his remarks imply insult to the House and to the country. At this point in time am not in a position to know whether these remarks were made or not. would have to consult 8393

:tav 30, 1978 Tape 3758 Uiight) EC - 1 ~!R. SPEAKER: (Collins) Hansard, and I will bring this matter back to the nouse at the earliest opportunity. Burgee -Bay d'Espoir. SOHE HON. HE!-!BERS: :-!R. SINMONS: The han. the member for Hear, hear! I have thirty seconds left, ~·!r. Speaker. Let the record show, Mr. Speaker, that the member for Grand Falls managed tonieht to use one hour and fifteen minutes since quarter to ten when he raised the matter, and do not let anybody suggest, Mr. Speaker, that I used that time in speaking or the two hours that the member for Kilbride (Mr.

Wells) used up the other day on those specious points of privilege. All right, Mr. Speaker. Now there are a number of other issues, but it is now five, four, three, two, one. I move the adjournment of the debate, ~r. Speaker, it being 11:00 P.M. SOME UON. MEMBERS: :.!R. HICK!!AH: Hear, hear! ~r. Speaker, I was going to get up and move the adjournment of the debate, but we have had no debate in the last four days. I move that the remaining Orders of the Day do stand deferred and that this House on its rising do adjourn until tomorrow, Wednesday, at 3:00P.M. and that this House do not adjourn.

On motion, the House at its rising adjourned until tomorrow, iVednesday, Hay 31, 1978 at 3:00 P.~r. 83;')4

~lay 30, 1978 Tape 3723 IB-1 The House resumed at 8:00P.M. t,lr. Speaker in the Chair. 11R. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker. The han. member for Burgee-Bay d1 Espoir. liR. SPEAKER: f'R. Slt'!IONS: Oh~he is back. We missed him this afternoon. Haw is the savoury patch? I'R, RIDEOUT: There was a good sale on savoury. MR. NEARY: Spray matacil on it. MR. SIMMONS: am not sure what the member is saying. Yes, that is right. Would the member agree to have it sprayed with matacil? We were going to try it on the Minister of Tourism but we thought we should try it on something useful instead.

So perhaps the savoury patch, Mr. Speaker, would be a good one. was just delaying there for the minute, Mr. Speaker, because was lookina at the transcript - MR. LUSH: Moroan is out. MR. SIMMONS: Yes-! think they have given him the flick. MR. J.CARTER: It is hard to keep them seated after a good meal. MR. SIMMONS: As soon as we are all settled down now. I know we have eaten well and all that but I want - MR. NOLAN: Were you down in the dining room? MR. SIMMONS: No, some fellows do not get invited to the dining room. r was just perusing this famous transcript again, Mr.

Speaker, because I read it very differently from the member for Kilbride (Mr. Wells). I wish he would come in at some point so we could have a chat to him. This business. Mr. Speaker, of dealing witil part-time members is awkward because just as you want to say something that they should be present for they are absent and then you will get accused at some noint of sayin9 something in their absence. MR · J. CARTER: Is it better to hP a part-time member or a fu 11-time mouth? MR. SIMMONS: The member for St. John's North (Mr. J. Carter) would we 11 know the answer to that question. rtow, Mr. Speaker, if ~-Je may.

Let me get my notes organized here. There are a few other things 8287

May 30, 1978 Tape 3723 MR. SIMMONS: I wanted to say on the subject before quitting. MR. MORGAN: Ten and a half hours. MR. SIMMONS: What? MR. MORGAN: He spoke ten and a half hours. MR. W. ROWE: Not at all. IB-2 MR. SIMMONS: It did not seem that long at all, Mr. Speaker. Just made a few remarksJ Mr. Speaker, about a number of important issues about - MR. NOLAN: If he had anyoonscience the member for Green Bay (Mr. Peckford) would help you on it. MR. SIMMONS: Yes. Well the member for Green Bay is hardly worth getting to. MR. W. ROWE: No, not these days. MR. SIMMONS: Only a shadow of his former self.

The poison pen column has taken all of his energy. He has little time for anything else. The member for Humber Valley (Mr. House), r1r. Speaker, is a man I have spent a little time on not that I have anything against him personally but we have said a few things in this debate about his performance or lack thereof insofar as the education matter is concerned and the word that keeps pouring into us is he is the source of continuing disappointment to all the people around the Province. And I would say to him there are only thirty or thirty- five school superintendents.

One of those days he is going to have to apply for a job and the way they are talking these days he is going to need some recommendation I will tell you. AN HON. MEMBER: "e does it well. MR. SIMMONS: Well, Mr. Speaker, I sincerely hope he does it better than he is doing the education portfolio right now. Ah, there he is Nr. Speaker. We have got the member for Kilbride (Mr. Wells) back with us at least for a little while. Good to see him. It looks like he has eaten well. Certainly hope he fed his body a lot better than he fed the minds of the people of Newfoundland tonight 8288

May 30, 1978 Tape 3723 IB-3 MR. SIMMONS: on television. I hope he \vas more truthful with his glands than with the peoples' minds. Perhaps there should be a requirement of tabling Mr. Speaker, that we circulate it to the people of the Province. It would be a tremendous cost but with the very rough paraphrase they got from the member tonight perhaps the only way that they are going to get the truth on this is if they all get a copy of what he said. His rough paraphrase incidentally is a matter of no consequence, that it is all over now and that kind of thing. It is misleading at the very least I say to him.

I wish he had quoted what he said and then followed it with his statement and then people could judge whether he was telling the full truth or not. I wish he had said that his buddies over there were so boozed up they did not know what they were thinking or that they had no idea what they are doing anymore or some of these other choice terms that we read this afternoon. What was most incredible, Mr.

Speaker. instead of the member saying to CBC - and I am talking about the CBC news segnent this evening, the local news and the insert into it which we shall kindly call the Walsh Editorial Period - during that particular period, during the Walsh Editorial period we were told - understand Mr. Speaker, no criticism of CBC or any other mediuf'l for what the member says. It is not CBC's fault that he says it. But the most incredible statement this evening, Mr. Speaker, on the Walsh Editorial Period to the effect that this was a matter of no consequence and 8259

I \ ~'r. Spea}·er, helped Sy the script, tb.e script for the. ~·!llsh editorial period 1ihich f>liled to point out: at all anything about the aller::ations in this paper here thnt the c.en;;er thought his friends vere boozing it up in Cabinet, d:!d not knou ·~hut they Fere doing. :.io reference to the fnct that tl:le:" Lave not got any sense left over there. flo not '.,rwv any n:ore ·.·'hnt they arc.> do:i.ng over tl-.c.re. ;;o refe:rence to that. :!a reference to his disagreel'>ent over the_ Dayle decision or over the :Srinco decision.

There t.;as a reference on the item t.bat somebody was fillinP, their pocVets • .. o reference to the fact that he felt t:here '"as no t,-'ay to deal P1_th t1:.ern any more. ~a referenc.r>: to his concern that they Here rlest:royinr, the::!.!' credability. to the 1>Unch of crool-:S' conment, and it: Lind of takes t:/Je rner:1ber off the hook on that one. Perhaps I read too much into i::. P.ut l:'.y untlerstanding of it., and the understo.nti.ing of others I shc....,ed this to is that: it is pretty clear "Who the r:ten:ber is talkinp. about when he -refers to a bunch of crooks.

Out he came off rather t.rell nnd rather badly this evening- 1 :·r. Speaker. 1-lell in the sense that he uas ahle to pnrtray, he uas able t:o rr:i.ninize the dnmage of thi$ document to :litt".Belf 1 and he ild.S t';iV'en the CBC forum to do it, to minimize the damage. That sho~.:ed at thet time that there is a larre listenin~ alJdience:, one of the lnrEest, ,. 1:elieve, of any television period during the day on any channe.l, ''nd he ··-·as given the opportunity to ~isuse, to Oadly l'l'ilOOuse, ~tr.

Speake-r, the pubUc media, b;;:~.dly nisuse the public media to misrep-resent '·1hat is in this Cocurnent:, ":Jadly r:;i~;-represent it. ~~.nd then in this very offhand way to say, t.:e11, actually it is a dead issue. I!e hopes, '-'r. Speaker, he hopes lt is. n dead issue. I can see -..1hy he vould 82SO

'.'ay 1", 197!:1 Pnrc 2 - r,s ~;otJ, ~·r. Speaker, the transcript itself !.s nQt a r.1ntter that T unnt: to spend a lot of tir:1e on. but T ;,·ant to use it to draw attention to the larger problen over there. and it is a problem Hhich permeates the c•hole government process, whether you are talking about t:H~ scandal in Public L'orks, uhether you are talking about those scandalous t'ohhin deals, ~<.-tether you are talkinr about t~c Scrivener scandal. The problem is one and the sane that fer some strange reason over there they have a:l got to hang together.

It i.s only one t-;ord for it I say to the r.Jet:~her for St. John's ~:orth (:•!r. J. C:arter). I would li!·e to be kinCer, :,ut I also have got to be factual. I have also r,ot to ~e a bit factual. So for so!l"le reason, ~·r. Sreal'er, overtly or othcr,,dsc they decided to band together over there, !1ecause thev realize, t!ley rcnli:!e, lHe a - the analO?Y t,•ould not t,e parliamentnry - they realize, ~·r. Speaker, i.t is either ~ang to~cther or they hang separately. So, ~fr, Speaker, the incredible spectacle today of a rnember over there can now acknowledce on the public record that he said all those things.

Then Le t-:ants us to helieve that it is just a mild criticism. And then to adC insult to injury he goes on the public airwaves and p:ives a very :nisleadinp representation of what nctually happened. VR.F.ROHE: ''P. STV''!1~S: He '\'ants to refer it to n committee nou. ~:o,,•, ~fr. Speaker -yes he wants to ref;,r it to -"!. co~ittee not>' because somehm< - it is n dead issuP., he sa'rs, but it is soing ton comm:fttec. Fell, ynu see, t.re are playing into ~is 1-:n.nds ! say to my collearue frmr, Trinity - Bay Ce 1!erde (}!r.F.

Rowe) in this sense, that you should hnve learned one lt>sson from this vhnle episode, do not tnl:e him too seriously. Do not take him ton seriously. T.f he can stU] get 8291.

In:rc no. 372!, :b 7er! •:it~ rcoule t'1nt :1 tldn!:s nre a hur:c:.h of crcot-s z.n.:1. "c0zers and people 1:ho fill their mm poc!:ets :md i"'.c can r'"c:.onci1e th:lt, thn.t is thinking witt'>. his stance, and .o>"; t,e same time he can also make much ado r~is afternoon _,rout ,..,r:o lonur"' lr.ter C1"'. ti'e television it is rtll over, he says. It is a dead issue. 8232

'~~~' bfornat:tc:t, They our;:.t to hrtve sot::e rel~ticnship to rc2.lity. I Jo r.ot ~:nm:, •-•r. Spe::d:er, aftet" th.:1t stntenent t~is :J.ft.c~oon and ti1c trilli:mt pcrfor:nance ft'om the l"lenber fron !:ilbriCe (!:r. Hells) on t:1e ,u!;llic o.i!"'.:a::-s,aided ~nc! abetted by ~.Jhacvet' '->rites t:1e !:'alsh editorial ?e:c!oC: on \.EC, it t1:1s a. dis~r:1ccful per:orr.nnce, c!i::;::;r:1.ce:fuL :-rcLcciy !;oti1crs to asl- ny colleague from LaPoile (Hr. Neary) if that is the ~nly CO';';.'Jersation he i1.as. ~Iobody bothered to :!s!: ::in r..rhy 1: is t'~ct t:E:. '::'e':':'.l:er :rol:', !::ilCr!.de t!r.

Hells) loni.-~ed so relieveC. ~-:hen ~E! sees the conversation and realizes it was not the conversation he feared it ~-~:!.!1' at all. '!'her~ is r:orc to c.o::;e, yes indeed. ! fear, '\r. Spea:,:e::-. thnt sor.e paople have r..isscC the (!C'.tit'e ~,oi:1t en this P3_S hoping '-':; no;,.• tl-te \fini~te!' nf '"anpowe!" (~!!'. t:>.nusscnu) ·:oultl t..:;; ':Jock in his seat but ~e :f.s not n.t the mnme:lt. I see the P=e~ier has joi~ed u~ ~o~P~tarily. Pnr~~ps, Yr. "n2-o.~:et", at this t:i::1e ·.;e should give the Pre::-.ier a::. oppor:::.unlt:y to Is i<: a couple of ·,;ee::s ago ::ow? 1'-fR. F.

ROWE: Over a rr,ont:h ago now. A non::.h ago, tJell :1c had tine, T~e Prenicr :nonis'-!G. ~m. F. ROW"E: The members telephone bills. sr::.::):1s: ::.:.nc J:!.r::ctar of cl:e specin.l action group. •-:'ell :::1at i:;; '.Ji.tac t~<e ?r~.::::.ier pt"onised us a ::o::.:::.i-1. ago he 11as ;;oing to cable anC. :::.h.:: job :.:c.sc:r:!.~ c::.oa .:or 82S3

lJi:: ::ol.! · ~ .:.-:: .::;:;r-:;-· S'-'veu t;tousar.L clollars. :r:wt is :::~c jc:; ~;;::5cript.l.c~, ··=· .,.hat reaso:r.. t!o:: ·.;e ::.:1ve a ;;art-t:!.l:l.e fellou ;.rho Joes not uor:: fu..;.l tine f:.::r :or:y seven. t:Oousan.;! Callers. DiC: ~1e get the joJ "ot tdt~:,!:;ta."lL.i:lg the. f.:1ct that .te C.iC. not r:c.et t!~e job description l.c.icl <:!ct-m fir=t for t::is job .:md the ~erson first offered this job was given a job deoc.ription spelled out, ! have sc::;n ti1.e job r.lescripticn. Is t'1at the sac.e job description under which ~!r. Cole '--ras !tired? If so ::r.

Spea:'"er, I cu:: 1>~11 ycu !:no~: that he does not cect that job descri;;tion at all. \·'as ::c ::!r!!d L'ec:mse :v.= is a good :;elfin:; buC.dy of t 1;c Pn;.::~br? Is ::his 1!ac:t and ! ,,,ill scr.'l.tch yours? Is that ~is ~n.in qunllfication, he is a ;ood ::;olfi:lg huddy of the Prer::ier? Is his second ::;.ualification that ;,c. is a good golfing buddy of '<;r. :>obtir., \>lho is nlso Luddy of ::he !'renicr. Does the job description ;rovide tl:!.:!t he Hill ''"' Cocked a day or ti.;o? t·:'ill they usc ::cli.copte-::-s far the golfing an~ i; they do uho vdll pay for t'::lem? ';Till t~~c ·~on. rr.ember for St.

Jo::n' s ::ort'1 C::r. Cnrter) be allow~ci to ':-e :::.c .::addy? c!R, RIDEOLT: That is if ile is qualified for that o ''- helicc~ter caddy. l'r. Spea.i-:er these 'lUCt>tions c:oul:! all 'Se anst>tere.J if ;:e. ju:;t bud tl-.e co:1tract tb.at the Prerr:icr ?remised us n r:ont!-1 ago o that is 8234

May 30, 1978 Tape 3726 !8-1 MR. S !MMONS: treacherous ground, very treacherous ground, Mr. Speaker. I tell you for your own good, do not hold your breath if the Premier promises to do something for you. Ask the people of Grand Falls. Ask the member for Grand Falls (Mr. Lundrigan) who was promised a hospital extension. Ask dozens and hundreds and thousands of oeople throughout this Province. Ask even Craig Dobbin. The Premier promised to deliver an office building to him. He promised to deliver our Cabinet to him. talked to a businessman as late as yesterday, Mr.

Speaker, a very reputable businessman in the city, a man I do not know well but I have met a few times. He told me that - and he was away, Mr. Speaker, when this whole issue was, I do not know if he was physically away but I think he was out of St. John's whether he was out of the Province or not I do not kno~ but he was not immediately on the scene when this whole matter came up in the House.

So yesterday I happened to run into him at another meeting and he asked me - I am nat sure if it was yesterday or, yes yesterday guess it must have been - he was asking me about the issue and I told him about the signature business and what we said was a deal and I tried to put to him what the government's argument was and must say l did not do it very well at all but I tried to give it some semblance of impartiality. Half way through he interrupted me. He said, "What are you ta 1 king about?".

He said, 11 Sure Craig told me about twa months ago he had the deal in his pocket. 11 I said, uwhat?" 11 Yes 11 , he said, 11 on1y about two months ago in the presence of six or seven people Craig patted the breast packet of his coat and he said, 11 Sure I have got the deal in my pocket signed. 11 He was bragging about that, Mr. Speaker, as late as two months ago, the deal that the Premier said they never had. Then the Premier goes and gets his old golfing buddy one day to date a letter, the very day that we are having the debate in the House, that same day. \</hat an insult to the House!

Get his buddy to sign a document. That was on the Wednesday. Then on the Friday Mr. 8285

May 30, 1978 Tape 3726 IB-2 MR. SIMMONS: Dobbin and his lawyer came to see us in the Opposition. On Friday he came down and he had a chat with two or three of us who were there at the time, myself, the member for Trinity-Bay de Verde (Mr. F. Rowe) I believe was there during part of the time when Mr. Dobbin visited and the Leader of the Opposition spent most of the time with him. During that exchange, no question about it as far as Hr. Dobbin was concerned, there was a deal, no question at all about it, no question. But as I say, Mr.

Speaker, talking about the Premier 1 s promises whether they are promised to this House to table a document involving the contract of Mr. Cole or a promise to construct some hospital or a promise to deliver for his old golfing buddy, they are all in the same category. Do not take them too seriously. Do not lose any sleep over them. Now, Mr.

Speaker, in addition to the verbal promise let the word go out if you got a piece of paper signed by the Premier, even an $80 million agreerr,ent signed by the Premier and witnessed by one of the ministers or the other way around, even if you have his signature on a piece of paper, a 1 ittl e advice to you, Mr. Speaker, make sure you get it autographed by everybody else in the Cabinet. Make sure you get it autographed by everybody else in the Cabinet or, Mr. Speaker, get the Premier to tell you whether it is his tentative signature or his final, irrevocable signature. It could be either one you see, Mr. Speaker.

It could be just a tentative signature that does not mean a row of beans or it could be the final, irrevocable signature. How you tell the difference by looking at them I do not know but there must be a way. He found a way. 8236

-,c. ~ig::1.aturc in pr:.nciple. "". ;:·";•-~T?'S: ------ ;s :-:y colleacue fron fnglc liver -.1 "r. Spen.Yer, just ~-efore t:e vcrtt to ::;nrrer, •Je vere tall ir:z at-out a couple of r::atters thnt had ccr.e up in the ?ublic 1'ccounts. These either Cid not cor-e out di:-ectly or did not get elaCcrated on at tlte tir::e, ;,ec.::us"" '·'C. 1.:-ere involved in another ;;~.:J.jcr issue at the sar::e tir:;e. But I •-:as brinr:tnr: !:he Eouse up to date just and ar;:1in, :·r.

Spe.?Yer, I n~ prepared to tahle n couple. of C.ocu:r:ents t-.•h:tch relate the fire captain 1 s report 1-·hich indicate.:> t!-:.:1t it 'YOS a fairly miner fire and then the report by 1-'r. Angus r.ee= of th? C::epartment Phich indicated thn.t the total cost of thf' fire •·ns sor:1et~-inp: of the order of ~103,\!M), but tlmt d:e cost related to e.lrctrical •,:as S30,,100. : .. nn as vc rose nt si:<. o'clocl: ·~·n.s pointing out that the :i3n,ooo on electrical subsequently l··ent to Sflf,OOO ~>lith not a tender callcC for any of it.

I >-:ish ti':e '·'inister of '·'anpc•,•er ~-:et'e ;,ere richt novr, because there are some questions t:-tat needed to be anst-:ered about tLis, Po•.r does it go on? ! rr:e;m T as!-.ed :::inisters - en r::e ot1::er si.rle -;,'ho are running other Ccpnrtrcents, is thnt any ·-:ay to ru:: a departtr..ent, tht1.t you run up 8616,1"-r'JO for t:hich first of all there is no budget iter.:: any· .. :ay. It is .:m er.:erccncy iter.., l suppose. ~ere is,_.-, ~)uC.get itetl for it. ,\nd the cnly cnr:trived nr nfter th· fnct tcud;::ct itc:r is infor:e.atir:'n fror. one 82~7

) ) Page :2 - ::1s ":r..!.. Si~:::ons. it runs uo to SM6,00n. ;:;o tender calle2 for any of it. 1 Mean ';o;J is it possible? Hm.• can you run a dernrt:Jent so badly? EoH can you be such a lousy minister that this goes on right under your nose- 5616,000, no tenders called, nncl every last cent paid out to one contrnctor. Every last cent ?aid out :a one contractor. And one more thing, not one ::lr:'lount, not one individual payment ovet" 515,000. Every last o~e. every invoice, every 1,·ork onicr, unCc.r Sl5,000 !.ndiviCually. •:on, Hr, Speaker, is that all a coincidence?

Does that not concern anybody over on that side, ~t". Speaker, that Hhat ;:ou have here, "'r. Speaker, at the very least, if you just go by appearances only, is some awfully sloppy administr3tion, some a~vfully flagrant abuse of all the rules, a flagrant abuse of the rules, !''r. Speaker. Either the crowd dmm there mts completely stunned, including the minister, in t:h:!.ch case they should all be fired or, !1r. Speaker, there 1ms something willful, something rnischevious, something malicious poinp, on. A::d I cannot, !·'r.

Speaker, I cannot for one mtnute believe that that expenditure- and I am only talking e:~ut one building nor.r -where the cost went from $30,000 to $616,000 on electrical. t am only talking about one building. I cannot ~elieve fat" a minute that that vent on over.an extended reriod of ttme, t~;o and one-half years, thirty nonths, without the active ~:nmrledr-;e of people at the political level. without ~ 82S8

'~ay 30, 1978 Tape 3728 !B-1 the active knowledge of a minister or ministers. I do not think it is possible, probably possible but not very probable, anymore, Mr. Speaker, that I do not believe that the whole gear racket that went on in the Department of Fisheries went on without the knowledge of the ministers concerned. believe the former minister, Mr. Crosbie, was aware of what was going on over there. I believe the Hinister of Health as he is now knew what was going on there when he was Minister of Fisheries. MR. H. COLLINS: You would not say that outside the House. MR. SIMMONS: I may have to. I may have to.

If the member will educate me as to the reasons he would like it said outside the House I mi9ht consider it. MR. H. COLLINS: I am implicated. MR. Sir'iMONS: Mr. Speaker, the member may not believe that but I believe it and I believe it very implicitly and I will demonstrate to him why I believe it. 11R. H. COLLINS: Be 1 i ef has nothing to do 11i th it. I asked you to state your impressions. Will you say that outside the House? 11R. SIMMONS: I may well do it. I am not saying I will not. All right.

The member believes and belief has a lot to do with it, the member believes that nothing should be said inside the House that cannot be said outside the House. MR. H. COLLINS: That is an abuse of the immunities of this House. HR. SIMMONS: No, Mr. Speaker, we have irrrnunity for another reason too. the kind of reason I demonstrated last Spring. If I did not have the protection given me under irrmunity I could not have stood here in the first week in June when there was a money bill going through the House and demanded a public enquiry.

I could have done it but I could not have given the documentation required to convince the government that there was no way out but by public enquiry. And I predict that to this day there would not be a public enquiry if it was not for that vehicle l'thich I was allowed to use because of immunity. r stood here most of the day. I started 8239

May 30, 1978 Tape 3728 IB-2 MR. SIMMONS: about ten-thirty or eleven 0 1 Clock in the morning after Question Period if members will remember and I went through - when we started again in the afternoon at three 0 1 Clock the Minister of Finance as he then was the,Minister of Transportation now, got up and said, 11 We11 the Premier is in Toronto.~~ It was at that point I said to him, 11 Well they have phones in Toronto, do they not?u And we talked until five-thirty. And at five-thirty the minister got up and announced that the Premier in Toronto had agreed to a public enquiry.

And I would submit to the member for St. John1 s North (Mr. J. Carter) that we would never have succeeded in getting that public enquiry if I had not been able to lay out here the documentation with the protection of the immunity of the House. MR. HICKMAN: The only concern about immunity is with respect to the laws of 1iable, right? That is the real concern, that the laws of liable do not apply. MR. SIMMONS: No, well in my debate at that time - MR. HICKMAN: No but what I am getting at is that truth is a defense to a liable action. MR. SIMMONS: Of course. Ah yes you can say truth is a defense. MR. HICKMAN: Yes.

MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, yes and no. MR. HICKMAN: Yes it is. MR. SIMMONS: Yes and no and here is what I mean. MR. HICKMAN: There is no yes or no there. MR. SIMMONS: Truth is a defense provided you have more money than the other fellow to defend yourself. MR. HICKMAN: Oh, nonsense, absolute nonsense. MR. SIMMONS: A lot of innocent men, Mr. Speaker, have gone to jail not because they did not have truth on their side but they did not have might on their side. They did not have money on their side. MR. HICKMAN' Nonsense! Tommyrot! 83::'0

May 30, 1978 Tap3 3728 IB-3 til. SIMMONS: have a number of things, Mr. Speaker, 1 would like to say but tell you now, Mr. Speaker, I will not say them without the protection of this House, nat because they are not true but because I want to stay out of jail. It is a terrible thing to say but it is true and I believe it. MR. HICKMAN: Do you believe that you could go to jail for liable? MR. SIMMONS: Well you know I used the expression. What I mean is I want to stay aut of court. Put it that way, I want to stay out of court.

I am sure the Minister of Justice is used to the expression in its general context, to stay out of jail. I mean of course to stay out of court, stay out of a situation where I am the subject of prosecution for something I have said. And there are a lot of people, Mr. Speaker. Let us not lase sight of that. A lot of people have been taken to court because they said things I>Jhi ch were true but never had the money to prove that they were true. ~IR. HICKf1AN: That is a terrible reflection on a judge. MR. NOLAN: A terrible reflection on a court. MR.

HICKMAN: That is what I mean, a terrible reflection on a court if that is true. r4R. SIMMONS: It may well be that but no, it is also a reflection on the quality of the defense that the guy can mount. AN HON. MEMBER: Legal aid is there for that. MR. HICKMAN: No, legal aid applies to criminal cases. AN HON. MEMBER: You mean you cannot get legal aid? MR. Sirf-JONS: Pardon? MR. WELLS: think the member has it mixed up. It is mixed up. MR. S!M~ONS: Well help me unmix it, will you. MR. HICKMAN: Well the Attorney General is- MR. SIMMONS: No, no.

I hear what the Attorney General is saying and I hope he hears what I am saying too, that there are all kinds of cases, Mr. Speaker,

Tnpe no. 37:!9 rare 1 - rrs t.:hcre innocent people, hy speaking out on tLe truth, have gotten the shaft, not 1-,ecause the judge was malicious, ~ecause the judge given the facts presented to him in court ~nde a decision 1Jhich "'ent against the innocent person, 'Jecause the innocent person could not mount a good defence. I!e diC not have t!'le money. There are all kinds of cases like t!:l.at. ;rp. WELLS: rh, no! '-'P. S!'~'I1!~S: ------ ~Iobody in this House believes, Yr. Speaker Co they? r'P. HICK!'N!: t'e have a stronger judicial system than w~ have ever hnd.

Nobody in this House believes tl'at tl:e poor man is there anybody in this House, ~!r. Speaker, "ho ~el:ieves - does the uinister of Justice believe that the poor man got the same chance in <1 court of ln• ... • as the rich !:!an in ~leFfoundland? Yes. 'JP NOLJ..N: Hhat a lot of nonsense! 1\ lot of nonsense, ~tr. Speeker. '!P_. HTCKY.i:i: ~·:'hen he has retained counsel, yes. Absolute nonsense! Ehat did he say about retaining counsel? Hhen he has retained counsel, yes. "'0 • SIYYONS: There is the catch, "r. Spenl-er. There is the cntch, ~~r. Spcni:er. That is vhy we have legnl aid, is it not? YP. sn~ro:.1s: Yr.

Speaker, does not the minister understand nt all that r ;.;ill always, ·~::ettet> I nr. in the right or the wrong, or whether I am teing wrongly acCU.''~ed or rightly accused, ! will ahrays have - and listen to what I say - the hest de fence I can huy. There is the c,,tch. I can only afford so nuch. -\nd ~ f T am up against a person Hho happens to have a few millions en

Tnpt> !\O. 3729 :Cet:ter case thnn ! 11ill. ·ur:o • ~rt ·' ~· : ---- \·,'hct.t you 11re saying is that the justice scale nnd stlver have a great affinity for one another. Yes, ve would ~e naive if ue clid not c:·.in}; that, :•r. Speaker. h'hat we ought to be do:!ng instead of "ranrlin(! over the obvious is looking at vays to put sene extra :-'one'-' -lntc the legal .1id oreanization, T.t is $600,000 noH, nh, yes, but I uas coming to my next pnint. ,\nd t!1en. Yr. Spea~:er, finning it up so it can~ot ':·e abused by the la•-:ryers, firming it up so it canr.ot be abused 'l<.t the lmryers.

Is it doinrr any good? r.~~. no~ of course net. \>!here has the minister been? ~!ell, I asked that because •-:e l-:nvc n '·oo.rC r:.onsistinz of lat:yers and lay persons. •-rell, ;.~r. Spe:1ker, I will give the minister - f.nd the ~uditor Genernl does the nuditing. - I uill ~ive the minister one example ·:J,t>rP. it is nL,used.

Tt is nhused in effect. ~~ow what I {<Jill overt is 7 su11r:tit .it is n overt abuse. !3ut it is abused in this sense: You ::;,e favourite trick - you cnn read :!.nto the reasons you "'·ant - th?' favour-ite trick is to havP. the case held ever to rmother dny, "'ecauf':e there is another trip out of tm-n. T cnn give the Minister r:xar:n>les of very straightfr11:~mrd cases. very straichtfor·'<l.r'd cn.:;es th;:~t are cnrriP_t' over and carri.cd over :mel t:11rricd over and carried over. roes anyhody over here knoH ahout those cases? 83~)3

Tape no. 37:2? '"at-: if you ,:o, you Lno•.• - I rio ~ot '",1nt ::C>u to :c:ake it pcl'lic, :,ecause t:e nay ::;e li!oelling softie r~rscn •d;o ~ s not in " :-osit!on to defend his or herself. lot if t~e fan. ccntleman has .any ev:!.dence of ahuse vou!G ·.·cc pll'nse ?i'Je it to me, and I •Yill ~vithout nny hesitancy :;ive it to t~e board and to the ,~.uditor Gener<'l!. 111}" Co you not tall: to 'i'~Ot"C of your legal colleaFues •"•he will tell you? 'rot only that hut the r;ork is pawned of h:: t!1e N'ay on the jun:i.ors. TI1e seniors .:tre zone on h,ustness trips. l.'Jh NRAR"Y'-':~-­ YR !......

I!:.IQ!.li : 1IlC{''!~': ~·o, no! And anybody who wants legal aid go to tie junior. The lawvers ~et - The what? It is pawned off on the juniors. You snid it Pould s;c up to ~J(1r',f"00 cr :Lat is rieht. And can you rer.err:h~r 'lhat T said? You said it •,;auld no::. ! snit! ve should sot.e Cny c:ntcb. up ?itL :'et-· !1runsuick l·thich is $l.F million. "r. Speakf~r, I have no .:trgument ·,.;j th thP nrr.ounts involved, ·~·hether it is $1,0'10 or $£1'10,0(10 as lone as tt-e people for tlho:n it is irtended eet the ~enefit fran it. -'·11 right?

"o<.J it is et;~ally tJrong if there is only one dollar :in the fun~ if the people for whom it is intended do not get the benefit of thnt one dollar. TI·.e anount :Is it',portant only in t!1e sense t'::nt it meets ~·h;tever t:Ce need is, uhether it is enourh tc !1Pet tfo.e neeC. ?ut T um

Page ~~ t.lli:tns al:Jout t:l:e need, the need nf t!!C person ,d;o cam:ot <1f:orcl legal aid or legal services on his otm. I ;:_rn not tn.Hing a!::out the needs as a lawyer. The lat.-yer cn.n find other uays, But I understand, :-!r. Speaker, ! }-nov: of cases ":.:here - and there nay :le good reason, the lawyer is :10t telling his client what the good reaerns are - of fuirl;.- routine cuses '1eld over, carried over to another day, a t-~eek after, or t>m <Jeel:s after. I k::o;.; nne t:,in2 it r::eans.

It ~eans that a latv")"er hn.s to go back to the community again, next •-.:eek this time and a week after this tirre :md ;:. •·eeL after this tin::e. The Crown is at the request of the court. 83!35

flay 30, 1978 Tape 3730 I8-1 MR. SIMMONS: I will tell them when, Sir. I will get a little more documentation because I do not have - MR. NEARY: More for the convenience of the lawyers than anybody else. MR. SIMMONS: All I am saying to the minister - MR. HICKMAN: am serious about that because I think that we have kept a very close rein on our legal aid fund compared to what I hear from other jurisdictions. That is why we have had the Auditor General doing the audit.

And if the han. gentleman has one I would have no hesitancy at all in sending it down to the board in confidence and let him see the result of their investigation. MR. SIMMONS: All right. Well that is what I began to say to the minister just now. just got into this as an aside and I did not have documentations here. MIL HICKMAN: I appreciate that. MR. SIMMONS: But it is only in the last - I~R. NOLAN: Why must the member do it when lawyers know it. when lawyers are talking about it, Nhen lawyers are ashamed of it. You are a lawyer. You do not need us to tell you. MR. NEARY: And you are a Minister of Justice. MR.

HICKMAN: I wish they would come and tell me. MR. NOLAN: Just goes to show how much they trust you I guess. MR. HICKMAN: I think I have a very good raport with my legal colleagues and I think they trust me and I hope they trust me and I cannot see any reason why they should not. MR. NOLAN: Well then they must tell you in - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: MR. HICKNAN: They probably do not tell me any doubts. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! Past experience has indicated to me that when an han. member is speaking and other side issues and other members then

May 30, 1978 Tape 3730 I8-2 MR. SPEAKER: get involved that could well have a tendancy to lead to disorder. So r would ask han. members to desist and also I would point out that when this practice develops it sort of happens with a certain informality and people speak of views and talk to one another in a manner which is at variance with the rules. Put it that way. The han. member for Burgee-Bay ct•Espoir. fiR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, the member for Conception Bay South (Mr. Nolan) is right of course that a fair amount of the information is available directly from the lawyers.

But in addition, the minister has asked me and I will undertake to get him some information. I will undertake to get him some information because it is an amount of money that we cannot afford to abuse and if any part of it is being abused then of course rse have got to put an end to it. Now, Mr. Speaker, the page is near. I promised a moment ago that I would table these documents. These relate to the fire in the U.s.a. Building which was to have cost $30,000 electrical, wound up costing $616,000, all lashed out to one contractor, a good friend of the administration without any tenders even being called at all.

MR. NEARY: Is that the one that is under scrutiny now at the institution on Duckworth Street? MR. SIMMONS: What institution? MR. NEARY: The Court House. MR. SIMMONS: Oh yes, that is right. This is the same contract that is involved in the courthouse thing and the fire ha11 thing, the central fire hall and a number of others. A good friend of the government, Mr. Speaker, a very good friend of the administration. Fewer people these davs whn want to admit that he is their friend but nevertheless they are friends. MR. NEARY: The member for Placentia, his friend. The member for Bonavista North. MR.

SIMMONS: I must say the member for Placentia (Mr. Patterson) is one of the men who helped uncover this whole thing last Spring. I have to -

May 30, 1978 Tape 3730 !8-3 t-!R. t~E.A.RY: Well nevertheless he supports the administration. ~1R. SIMMONS: Well he is another one of the people like the member for Kilbride who may well be guilty by association before it is all over because the member for Placentia like few others in this House, Mr. Speaker~ knows what we vJent through trying to get the information out publicly. I dared say he was leaned on privately. I dare say his friends advised him in a number of ways. But he persisted at the meetings and he helped us smoke out this unseemly set of events at a time, Mr.

Speaker, when there was a lot of muttering on that side about l'thether we should allow them to come out. And there were all kinds of filabusters. attempts to shut up the Committee, everything you could mention. But I think, Mr. Speaker, the member for Placentia takes a degree of pride now as I do in the fact that the Committee has smoked it aut with his assistance. But it does put him in a bit of a quandering. He must feel a certain affinity for the member for Kilbride because he, like the member for Kilbride is now in the position where he has to embrase those that he keeps at arms length. He has, Mr.

Speaker. the member for Placentia, to embrase those that he keeps at arms length. And what an assignment. Now if he is having trouble doing it I would suggest he talk to the member for Kilbride because he has got it down to a veritable art, almost a science, embracing those you keep at arms length. The Fisheries College job I hav~ made reference to.

} ~~.:ty 30' 1973 Tape 3731 G!:-1 I want to go another job. Tl1is one involves another contractor. One of the contractors, ~!r. Speaker, on the list, t!1is list by the way, ~:r. Speaker, is a list that was sent to oe a year ago by a person who called me on the phone. I do not know to this day who that person is. I assuce, but I do not know, that that person worked or probably still works in the Jepartment of Public Works, but at the very least he did tell ne that he did have so~e access to what was in l."ublic ;:arks, He could not ~ive ne his name.

J:e called me first in the office and asked me if he could call me at home and ! said he certainly could and he did call ae at home and he gave ~e some information. Then he said this is the list of contractors, :rr. Speaker, electrical contractors. lie then said to ~e, :Ir. Speaker, on the phone one night at cy hone, he said,"! can get you certain i:1formation' and lo and behold a couple of days later certain infornation turned up in the nail, and I can only assune that the zentlenan on the phone was responsible for sending the inforraation.

It was not signed· it ~as just in an ordinary envelope and this was one of the pieces of infornation which was in that envelope at that tine - ~ list of electrical contractors and a number on that list, the first is the ~lalsh company, the second is !ioel 1 s Electrical, third is Cahill, G.J. Cahill, iR. :lEARY: :IR. snmo~rs: ~!R. NEARY :tR. sr:!:wus: the fourth is Gaulton Electric. \-l'"ho? Gaulton £lectric. Gaulton Llectric?

Yes, thnt is r..1.11lton i:lec.tric over on Siena! ~ill ~and - t~is fire that happened there two or three or four weeks ago, re~enber, the fire which burned out the building at the botton of Signal Hill Road. VR, :-TEARY: Where were thev working and what kind of work were they doing for the government?

:!:ly 30. 1973 Tape 3731 (' ·~- 2 :m. sr:r~w::s: ~lell, they were ~oin3 electrical work for the government. the job - HR. :-lEARY: ':Hthout tender? :-m. S l:f!!O~l'S: Yes, without tender, yes. "" •• ro.. :!tARY; Uha t about the list? :!R. S I:!HONS: Yes, yes. I H:tnt to tell you n.bout this list first and I will co~e b~c~ perhaps to th~ denise of the prer.:ises because the two may be re13ted, '!r. Spe.1.ker the two nay be related. It is possible that :he two nay be related. The fact that they are on this list here and the fact that the demise of the premises may be related.

This list cane to me, as I say; probably as n result of the telephone conversation which I had. It cane to Me in the nail. I went into a rncetinr of the Public Accounts Connit:ee and I beran askin~ questions. I said with thi~ list tucl:ed auay in the botton of my file, ~lr. Speaker, without rna!:i~w any reference to it in committee, I s~id to a witness from the Department of Public Works ''Do you know of a list: do you use a list?' And the member said, ms a matter of ~act I hnd hetter Rive credit vhere credit is due I think it wa9 my collea~ue from Lewisporte the ~ember fron Levisporte (~r.

F. ~l1ite) who actually first asked the question 3bout the list nf a ~entleman who worked in the Depart~ent of nuhlic Harks and still works there. T~e ~entleman from Public Vorks said well he would have to - he could not answer that and h- auld have to thi~k about the answer or somethinG to tltat effect but he would have to think about it for awhile.

So. ~;c went away and the ne~t week that ~itness uas not present 3t the ncctin~ for other reasons, and tltere was anotl1er gentleran there. ':!e put the question to hir.1, nnd he >1lloued t!-1nL ;'es, there night be a list; t;ell, if chere was n list, tllerc was certainly a group of na~es that they routinely used. ! ilsked where that group of nanes ca~e from. t!ell. he never saw tl1e list hirnself but ho sot it fro~ his superior, the gentleDan who was nou ~~sent froc :he ~eetin~ and t:ho ras~onJed t~e 831.0

:lay 30, 1978 Tape 37Jl week before that he would like to .:ave a week or so to think about it. So. eventually the first ~entlen~n cace back to the meeting and undez further questionin~ he said well he tltought there night be a list and that kind of thing. Then I said to hio. ''~-<ell, if you sa'" a list. would you recognize it?' He thought that perhaps he would.

Then we had the clerk of the committee, the law clerk of the Douse, tlte then clerk of the connittee take this list that I have ~ere down to hi~ and he sl1owed it to hie, gave it to hia, and I said now you are looking at a list of electrical contractors - is that the list that you use in your departnent in caking decisions about who got jobs without tender? He said '"Yes, it is··. asked hie where the list came from. He told me. of course, that the present Minister of Industrial nevelopoent gave hin the list soon after that ninister cnne into office back ic January or early February, 1972. Now, ~r.

S2eaker, you l13ve for the purpose of the debate tonight to take cy word for what I have just said, but if you want sane back-up I refer you to the minutes of 831:1

T.::p2. ~io. 373:! t~:e other r:e:1;,e.rs of the: Cr'"" ... ::-.ittee r i1::T: sure •.!ill .attest :h.:u:: it cx:;.e to :,e rubl:!.c l~not-:ledse. Nou •.1here did t~c li:;t: cor.e f-:'c-::? T:-:e Est, :lr. Speal:c.r, cn.ree fron the nan t~lto is r.o"' 4 -!.r.i.ste.r of In.Cu;.;tr::!.al Jevelcpner.t. He ::c.s :-:.o: r<cnied :::::n: it tcld it cn~e fron th.::t ,'!entlcmen The Pu~'lic ;.,ccounts Committee !1.3s been told thnt it cene from thnt: qentlc'!':'an. F8 ,.,t :10 tin:.e '',:!S d!!ni.cd '!.t. SP;niot ::ublic servants have saiC. !t came frc-1". :r. orde.r, A.::. 't7o.lsh E~_ectric, ::eel's l::lectriccl, G.J.

Cal:ill, Gn:.:.ltcn ZlectrLc, Cra::.n Elect:r:!.c, All Llectric., CLtr.:~:vi!L:;, ?oll:?!t:'s Electric, Grand ::'alls, Loc .. : 13 :1ec.tric, Fr;m::'s Slc;ctr:.c, 8312

J "1' 3732 :. ::t ,,:: Gaulton got a fair ~':'.ount of ·o.:o:::. '"" u:SR: r.o~ C~:7:e the .\uditC't' Gcr:ercl ::ii·:: cot :.-i:d::.:: ;:e.s the cause of that fire :t: ·r.:1;; caused by wiring. '·'? .• :1-::"' ..... V: ::'aulty <;tlr!r.g, ~:'el::.. ~:e are ;:alting >:ith interest to " .. v. ::r_'.R'!: nf::cr 83~3

• 3732 dccu"1e.:::ts. ,,a, the Sc.rlver.cr ::'.conC . .:J.l. The Scrivener scandal docu::.e:-.ts :;ere t[l_blccl. ~!R. NEARY: Th::tt '4US the same day as the Elizabeth Towers ffre. '~ T'.'~ PY ' About :our :.ours ::.a:::<::r. :~:J::s ' ,','!nut :our ;o:.:r::; l:J::cr, .J.::8r ::.,:;:; -::Au!.::o::: 21-:!ctric,and Gaulton :::lectric c.;::.::; cO'"':?htcly ')Ur>~ut:. ·.cut. ::r:::::·x::

::ay 30, 1973 '!::. ". ?..0:-:::: of events. ~-!.~ :o think that but it is not - '·!R. sr:rto:rs: will find it enbarrassing? Tape No. 3732 4 t!c. is :Onck ::c cl\e 6ronologicn.1 or:icr The hon. gentleman r::d.ght ~e able \\hat did the t:rlnistcr say? l•1lo ~!!t. H!CK)!A!l': Ke t:ill do w:1at -.:e do on occasior. when we ;et the facts. I a~ only listening. ~. :v. ROUE: 'Jhile P.ome burns. 8315

) May 30, 1978 Tape 3733 (Night) PK - 1 MR. SIMMONS: No, Mr. Speaker, I was giving a little time for the minister, thought he was just about to tell us something. Because we have asked him - he asked was I insinuating something? No I am not insinuating anything. I certainly have a lot of questions in my mind, Mr. Speaker. I have a lot of questions in my mind. And one of the questions I put publicly to the minister about three or four weeks ago.

I asked him on the subject of the Elizabeth Towers fire and the Gaul ton Electric or the Signal Hill Road fire I asked him whether there was any possibility that arson had been involved there? I asked him that in a Question Period in the House. MR. HICKMAN: I said I did not know. MR. SIMMONS: That is a kind paraphase of what the minister said. More particularly he gave me a lecture on what kinds of questions I should ask and so on. But I remember that among other things he said. he did not know. Does he know nov1? MR. NEARY: No. No answer. MR. HICKMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I gave my information what I knew 'then to the House. MR. W. N. ROWE: Hhat about now? MR. NEARY: What about now? MR. HICKMAN: And I have no more information today than yourselves. MR. SIMMONS: Now, Mr. Speaker, - MR. NEARY: Not quite. MR. SIMMONS: Now, Mr. Speaker - MR. RIDEOUT: Can he tell me what he has left, right? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. RIDEOUT: The Government House LeRder is causing disruption in the House. MR. NEARY: There is nothing private, nothing private. AN HON . .MEMBER: No cover up. MR. SmMONS: Mr. Speaker, the second - 8316

May 30, 1978 Tape 3733 (Night) PK - 2 MR. NEARY: No cover up. MR. RIDEOUT: It is not me I am not going to be party to a cover-up. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Although han. members are speaking quietly there is no great tumult. Certainly the procedure could be that four or five debates be going on at one time, and while that might expedite matters it would not make it easy to follow the debate and it would be very difficult for Hansard. So I must insist that han. members not carry on completely separate conversations while somebody else is speaking.

The han. member for Burgee-Bay d1 Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, the second company on that list of electrical contractors is Noel 1 s Electrical. I just want to illustrate, Mr. Speaker, to illustrate to the House the way this work order system worked or was made to work. I just want to table the document which consists of several work orders and several invoices. Now, Mr. Speaker, the members of the Committee went to the LeMarchant Road Building, we had a look at the electrical installation there, and if you get time sometime v1hen you are over