Manitoba Hansard — 1 October 2003 (Sitting 16, 38th Legislature, 1st Session)

38-1-16

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

First Session - Thirty-Eighth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LIV No. 16 – 1:30 p.m., Wednesday, October 1, 2003

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY First Session–Thirty-Eighth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation AGLUGUB, Cris The Maples N.D.P. ALLAN, Nancy St. Vital N.D.P. ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thom pson N.D.P. BJORNSON, Peter Gimli N.D.P. BRICK, Marilyn St. Norbert N.D.P. CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. Brandon East N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CUMMINGS, Glen Ste. Rose P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary, Hon. Concordia N.D.P. DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside P.C.

FAURSCHOU, David Portage la Prairie P.C. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach P.C. HAWRANIK, Gerald Lac du Bonnet P.C. HICKES, George, Hon. Point Douglas N.D.P. IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri Fort Garry N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. JHA, Bidhu Radisson N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. The Pas N.D.P. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. LOEWEN, John Fort Whyte P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St. Johns N.D.P. MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon.

Lord Roberts N.D.P. MELNICK, Christine Riel N.D.P. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon. Minto N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. MURRAY, Stuart Kirkfield Park P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. OSWALD, Theresa Seine River N.D.P. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack Southdale P.C. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Carman P.C. RONDEAU, Jim Assiniboia N.D.P. ROWAT, Leanne Minnedosa P.C. SALE, Tim, Hon. Fort Rouge N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Wellington N.D.P. SCHELLENBERG, Harry Rossmere N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St. Boniface N.D.P.

SMITH, Scott, Hon. Brandon West N.D.P. STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. TAILLIEU, Mavis Morris P.C. TWEED, Mervin Turtle Mountain P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P.

1477 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, October 1, 2003 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PETITIONS Dialysis Services Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Mr. Speaker, I wish to presen t the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. These are the reasons for this petition: Kidney dialysis is an important procedure for those with kidney failure who are unable to receive a kidney transplant. Those receiving kidney dialysis treatment are able to lead productive lives despite the con- tinual commitment and time-consuming nature of the process.

Kidney dialysis patients from out-of-pro- vince must be able to access dialysis services while in Manitoba to sustain their health and lives. Although a person's province of origin cov- ers all of his or her dialysis costs while she or he is visiting Manitoba, individuals receiving dialy- sis are currently unable to visit this province due to the lack of dialysis nurses to oversee the procedure.

The travel restrictions placed on out-of- province dialysis patients due to the growing nursing shortage in Manitoba's health care system presents concerns regarding freedom of movement and quality of life for those on dialysis. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Minister of Health to con- sider enhancing training programs for dialysis nurses in Manitoba, such that staffing shortages in this area are filled. To request the Minister of Health to con- sider the importance of providing short-term dialysis services for out-of-province visitors to Manitoba.

Signed by Elizabeth Black, Ed Sarna and John Brandon. Mr. Speaker: In accordance with our Rule 132(6), when a petition is read, it is deemed to be received by the House. Supported Living Program Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. These are the reasons for this petition: The provincial government's Supported Liv- ing Program provides a range of supports to assist adults with a mental disability to live in the community in their residential option of choice, including a family home.

The provincial government's Community Living Division helps support adults living with a mental disability to live safely in the com- munity in the residential setting of their choice. Families with special-needs dependants make lifelong commitments to their care and well-being and many families choose to care for these individuals in their homes as long as circumstances allow. The cost to support families who care for their special-needs dependants at home is far less than the cost of alternate care arrangements such as institutions or group and foster home situations.

1478 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 1, 2003 The value of the quality of life experienced by special-needs dependants raised at home in a loving family environment is immeasurable. * (13:35) We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request that the Minister of Family Services and Housing (Mr. Caldwell) consider changes to the departmental policy that pays family members a reduced amount of money for room and board when they care for their special- needs dependants at home versus the amount paid to a non-parental care provider outside the family home.

To request that the Minister of Family Services and Housing consider examining on a case-by-case basis the merits of paying family members to care for special-needs dependants at home versus paying to institutionalize them. This is presented on behalf of Margaret Fehr, Mary Welch, John Schmidt, John Peters and others. Mr. Speaker: In accordance with our Rule 132(6), when a petition is read, it is deemed to be received by the House. Lake Sturgeon Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): Mr. Speak- er, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba.

These are the reasons for the petition: Historically, lake sturgeon have been im- portant to Manitoba. Lake sturgeon were once plentiful in Lake Winnipeg and the Nelson, Winnipeg, Red and Assiniboine rivers. Sturgeon Creek, in the west end of Winnipeg, was once a sturgeon spawning ground. Male sturgeon do not reach sexual maturity un til they are 15 to 20 years of age and females 25 to 33 years of age. Mature males spawn every one to three years and females spawn every four to six years. Lake sturgeon have increasingly been caught in the Red River by anglers and in domestic nets.

Overharvesting has depleted the population of lake sturgeon. Manitoba and North Dakota have attempted to re-establish lake sturgeon in the Red River but with limited success. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Minister of Conservation (Mr. Ashton) to consider implementing a con- servation closure for lake sturgeon in the Red River, including its tributaries from the St. Andrews Locks to Lake Winnipeg. Presented by Danielle Davidson, Terry Buchanan, Maurice Kingdon and others. Mr.

Speaker: In accordance with our Rule 132(6), when a petition is read, it is deemed to be received by the House. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Tim Sale (Minister of Energy, Science and Technology): I would like to table the Annual Report for the Manitoba Health Research Council for 2002-2003 and for the Department of Energy, Science and Technology for 2002-2003. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have with us the members of the family of J. M. Froese, who was a former member of the Legislative Assembly.

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy Cash Advance for Producers Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, today is day 135 of the BSE crisis and the situation becomes more

October 1, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1479 bleak with each passing day. As Joe Masi from the Association of Manitoba Municipalities pointed out yesterday, rural property tax bills are due at the end of this month and many cattle farmers will not be able to pay them because of the toll the BSE crisis is having on them. As Mr. Masi from AMM said, and I quote: We are hoping people pay their taxes, but in the case they cannot because of th e severity of the situa- tion, property taxes may go to the bottom of the pile for payment. Will the Premier heed the warnings of Mr. Masi?

Will he listen to the 12 000 farm families that are out there that so desperately need cash at this time and will he do the right thing, Mr. Speaker, and provide the cash advance? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Many of us have met Mr. Masi. I have met with him twice during this crisis. We certainly are aware that he and the president of the organization did take a strong view to their meeting in Windsor and called on the national government to have an emergency treatment of this issue. We have always maintained, Mr.

Speaker, right from the meeting in Kelowna, that this should be treated as a natural disaster similar to the issue of other crises under 90-10. The federal government came back with a 60-40 response and then they limited it to August 31. We think some of the concerns that have been raised by Mr. Masi are also being raised by comparable organizations in other provinces. There is no question that there are very, very uncertain times for cattle producers with the border being closed since May 20, with the one cow that was detected and rejected in Alberta.

We have put in place a number of measures to try to deal in the short term with that economic uncertainty and economic loss, and the member knows which programs those are. * (13:40) Mr. Murray: When the Premier talks about disaster, the only disaster, Mr. Speaker, is the programs they have that are not working. We have been informed by the R.M. of Cameron that they have collected less than one third of the taxes they had at the same time last year, and I would like to table this for the House. The R.M. has told us that half of these payments they have collected were made to avoid a tax sale.

Will the Premier recognize how serious this crisis is and today commit to the right thing and provide a cash advance? Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, one of the reasons we have $43 million in our Budget to be signed along with the federal government money, one of the conditions was that this money would be advanced to the people that are suffering loss of income in the agricultural sector. We would argue that those are not just cattle producers but other producers of livestock, and we fully expect part of that money will flow soon. Again, at the meeting we had with Mr.

Masi and the president of that organization, they said we had no other choice but to sign that framework agreement, a different opinion obviously than the member opposite has on that issue. Mr. Murray: Carole and Gerry Williams are just one of the 12 000 families that are struggling through this BSE crisis. Mr. Speaker, in a recent letter, which I would like to table for the House, they said and I quote: "There are many people out here who are quietly struggling and trying to figure out how to hang on but they need help and they need it soon." Mr.

Speaker, if the Premier truly believes his programs that he has in place are working then I think he needs a reality check. He can start by actually going out to rural Manitoba and sitting at kitchen tables and listening to families because they will tell him first-hand that his programs are not working. Will he do the right thing and flow the cash advance to the farm families that are so desperately in need or does he want to remain factually unencumbered on this issue? Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, I and the whole caucus have been out meeting with producers.

They have told us that they do appreciate the low- interest loan program. I think we are over $12 million now as of yesterday. They have told us and suggested to us that we needed a transpor- tation drought subsidy for cattle producers and other producers. We have put $12 million with- out the federal government into that program.

1480 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 1, 2003 They have suggested to us that we extend the August 31 program on the slaughter subsidy program to not have our producers already in a second disadvantage.

They already have the disadvantage of distance dealing with slaughter capacity, and at many of the meetings we have had the producers tell us that it will take a little time, but the idea of trying to get more slaughter capacity, more processing, something that was not in the reality letter that the Leader of the Opposition sent out to producers, that more slaughter capacity was also essential to getting more control over our own destiny in the hands of Manitoba producers. The member opposite lik es to think there is a Berlin Wall around Manitoba. This cow was discovered in Alberta on May 20.

We are in a national crisis, Mr. Speaker, and I would like members opposite to join with us and call on Ottawa to have a national response. Livestock Industry Feed Assistance Program Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): Yesterday the cattle producers, the PMU producers and the dairy producers met with the Minister of Agri- culture and told the Minister of Agriculture how badly her feed transportation program had failed the farmers of Manitoba.

When will the Minister of Agriculture recognize th e fact that horses and cattle also have to eat, and when will she include those two commodities in her transportation rogram to ensure they also have feed? p * (13:45) Hon. Rosann Wowchuk (Minister of Agricul- ture and Food): Well, Mr. Speaker, there is another flip-flop on the side of the members on the other side of the House. They have been talking about BSE and the drought and the impact of the drought on those people suffering from BSE.

I want to tell the member that I did meet with the dairy producers and I met with the PMU producers and what we talked about is the fact that the PMU producers still have a market for their product. The dairy producers still have a market for their milk, Mr. Speaker. The cattle producers, the beef industry does not have a market for their beef product. The program was put in place to help those people who cannot address drought by reducing their herd. That is the whole purpose of this program. That is the discussion we had with the Manitoba Cattle Producers.

That is the discussion I had in south- western Manitoba. Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy Cash Advance for Producers Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): We will ensure the dairy producers and the PMU producers get that statement from the minister to make sure that they know what the minister says in this House. Mr. Speaker, this Government has wasted tens of thousands of dollars on self-congratula- tory ad campaigns– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Penner: Well, thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

This Government has introduced spending to congratulate themselves by spending tens of thousands of dollars on ad campaigns. Nine out of ten Manitoba farm families have not received the needed aid th at they requested. The BSE program, the slaughter program, the feeder program, the drought program and the loans program have all failed miserably. When will this Minister of Agriculture recognize the need for a properly funded cash advance program in this province of Manitoba that will serve the needs of Manitoba farm families? Hon. Rosann Wowchuk (Minister of Agricul- ture and Food): Well, Mr.

Speaker, I can assure the member that he does not have to provide the statement for the cattle producers, for the dairy producers and the PMU producers as to what I have said in this House because I said exactly the same thing to them yesterday that I have said in the House today. He may have the habit of saying different things when he meets with people privately and what he says here in the House. Mr. Speaker, we explained to the Manitoba dairy producers and to the PMU producers that the drought program was part of our BSE

October 1, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1481 package. The BSE has caused serious hardship for beef producers and that is why we put that package in place. It is very much appreciated by the beef producers, and that money is flowing. Province of Manitoba Accumulated Deficit Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr. Speaker, how ironic that, at approximately the same time as the Premier (Mr. Doer) stood in this house and made statements regarding honesty, his Finance Minister was putting out a press release that spun more yarns about the state of this province's finances. He claims to have balanced the books.

What he does not say is that to provide the illusion of a balanced Budget he took $203 million from Hydro. He reneged on his promise to repay the $150 million that he took out of the rainy day fund this year and he relied on a further $23 million to provide this illusion. Can the Minister of Finance explain to Man- itobans in an honest and straightforward way. Could he answer the question: If the Budget is balanced, why has the accumulated deficit risen by $314 million? * (13:50) Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Mr.

Speaker, perhaps the member missed it, but just last week the Dominion Bond Rating Service gave us an upgrade in our credit rating, which followed on the heels of the credit upgrading that was given to us by Moody's in spring just before we broke for the summer election. So the reality is this: The debt-to-GDP ratio has been declining in this province, and that is the fundamental ratio that bond rating agencies look at.

The principal issue which is driving the increase in the accumulated deficit is the pension liability which in 1988 members opposite were told to address when they did their financial review, and they ignored it for 12 years. Mr. Loewen: Mr. Speaker, reality is from the Auditor General and he even admonishes the minister and states the deficit is $184 million. Today, every Manitoba man, woman and child owes $8,433 as their part of the net provincial debt, a $700 per-person increase since 1999.

While this Minister of Finance continues to tell fairy tales of balanced budgets, individual Manitobans owe more and more. How can the Minister of Finance expect us to believe he has balanced the books when our debt keeps rising? Mr. Selinger: As I indicated ea rlier, the bond rating improvement relates to the debt-to-GDP ratio. Our economy is growing faster than the debt is growing. The ratio is going down. The driving issue that grew from $1.7 billion to $3 billion was the pension liability, com- pletely ignored by members opposite. For the first time in 40 years, this Government has dealt with it.

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. I would like to once again remind all honourable members that when the Speaker is standing, all members should be seat- ed and the Speaker should be heard in silence. School Division Amalgamations Costs Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): Mr. Speak- er, we warned this Government time and time again that there would be significant cost in- creases as a result of th eir forced amalgamation scheme. Yet they failed to listen and to imple- ment a plan to deal with the cost increases.

Now Manitoba taxpayers are on the hook for the Doer government's decision to force our school divi- sions to amalgamate. This is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the cost increases that will be forced on the taxpayers of our communities as a direct result of this Government's botched amalgam- ation scheme. I would like ask the Minister of Education: What will the final cost be to the taxpayers of our communities as a result of this Government's botched amalgamation scheme? Hon. Ron Lemieux (Minister of Education and Youth): Mr.

Speaker, we do have a plan as a government and certainly we have looked at all the advantages with regard to amalgamation.

1482 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 1, 2003 There are many school divisions, for example, that are computerizing with other divisions that did not have those advantages to the children. The children and the parents are much apprecia- tive of all those advantages, and there will con- tinue to be more advantages into the future. Sunrise School Division Labour Dispute Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Finance has admitted that his political appointee, Mr.

Lloyd Schreyer, intervened in the collective bargaining process in Sunrise School Division by offering money to settle an embarrassing st rike dispute just two weeks prior to an election call. Neither the Mini- ster of Finance nor the Minister of Education (Mr. Lemieux) nor the Pr emier ( Mr. Doer) will come clean as to who di rected Mr. Schreyer to offer this money to end the dispute. On behalf of the taxpayers of Manitoba, I am asking this Government to come clean.

Will the Minister of Education admit today that this had nothing to do with providing better educa- tion for our children but everything to do with fixing an election in Lac du Bonnet? * (13:55) Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table a letter dated April 17. I would like to table the letter with the House. In the letter, the opening paragraph, and it is from the superintendent of Sunrise School Divi- sion, it indicates: "Thank you for your involve- ment in the recent mediation process between CUPE and the Sunrise School Division.

Your time and efforts were most appreciated." He goes on to say: "Government's involvement, through the mediation process, was critical in achieving this result." He concludes by saying: "Once again, thank you for the Government's involvement in general and yours specifically." That letter was addressed to Mr. Schreyer. He was very appreciative of the fact that these kids were back to school. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Charleswood. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable Member for Charleswood has the floor. Pan Am Clinic WCB Cases Mrs.

Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. When WCB day surgeries are forced to move to the Pan Am Clinic, they still want expedited care, wh ich means that they jump to the head of the line. Can the Minister of Health tell us why he supports allowing 850 WCB patients to jump to the head of the line at the Pan Am Clinic when, in the past, so many times he has railed against this as being two-tiered health care? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): I know the advocate for the Maples clinic has made this inaccurate cl aim in the House on many occasions.

The Workers Compensation Board currently purchas ed services from both for-profit and not-for-pro fit health facilities including Maples and Pan Am as well as hospi- tals. This was the case under the former govern- ment and this is the case under this Government, Mr. Speaker. Mrs. Driedger: We know this minister has a proposal out there to move WCB patients to the Pan Am Clinic and in return for providing WCB patients with expedited care at the Pan Am Clinic, we understand the Minister of Health intends to charge WCB more than they are paying right now.

Can the Minister of Health confirm that he will be charging WCB a $1,200 facility fee at the Pan Am Clinic, even though WCB patients can get expedited care elsewhere right now for between $400 and $600? Mr. Chomiak: As usual, the entire premise of the member's question is factually inaccurate. Mr. Speaker, I will quote from the CEO of the Workers Compensation Board: Has anyone from government directed the Workers Compensation Board to deal exclusively or otherwise with Pan Am Clinic and the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority? Answer: No.

October 1, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1483 On CBC radio yesterday, or today, Doug Sexsmith explained WCB views these negotia- tions as a business case and would not enter into any deal that did not work for WCB. Quote: We would look at something like this as a business case. We are not going to enter into anything with an irresponsible use of WBC funds. They have negotiated with Maples, Mr. Speaker. Maples has wanted to be purchased. They negotiated with Pan Am. In Alberta, the WCB bought a rehab centre. The WCB is not directed.

They carry on their best business case and the practice they follow is the same practice s under the former government. a Pan Am Clinic Expansion Funding Mr. Mervin Tweed (Turtle Mountain): In order for the Premier's (Mr. Doer) Pan Am Clinic Phase 2 expansion to work financially, the Workers Compensation Board must do the fol- lowing: It must refer 85 percent of their clients to the Pan Am Clinic; it must invest $1.6 million in health infrastructure; and today as we found out, they must pay $1,200 for a service they would normally pay up to $600 for.

My question: Can the Minister responsible for the Workers Compensation Board tell Mani- toba businesses why he is gouging them to prop up the Premier's Pan Am Clinic? Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister charged with the administration of The Workers Compensa- tion Act): There goes the member again. Yester- day, he got into suggesting there was direction to Workers Compensation Board to negotiate a deal involving the Pan Am Clinic. That is incorrect, Mr. Speaker, and in fact as the Minister of Health pointed out, the CEO of the Workers Compensation Board indicated very clearly there was absolutely no direction.

In fact, I can advise the member that in addition to the Pan Am Clinic, apparently the Maples clinic has approached the Workers Com- pensation to buy the Maples clinic outright. I perhaps wonder if that is why the members opposite are raising these questions. I want to assure the member opposite that the Workers Compensation Board will deal with any and all proposals in a businesslike way. They are concerned about the interests of injured workers and their families and the Workers Compensation Board. I wish the member oppo- site would understand that and appreciate the work they are doing. * (14:00) Mr.

Tweed: Mr. Speaker, we know that Work- ers Compensation rates have gone up 20 percent in the last two years, 20 percent. Will the Minister responsible fo r the Workers Compen- sation Board today guarantee to Manitoba busi- nesses that rates will not go up as a result of his Premier's Pan Am Clinic? Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, the member opposite knows the recent announcement in terms of rates was based very much on the situation right now in terms of the investment portfolio of Workers Comp, the same thing impacting all Workers Compensation Boards across the province. Mr.

Speaker, we still have the lowest rates in the country. I guarantee you one thing, this Government would not cut benefits to injured workers and their families. Perhaps that is what those members want to do in terms of rates. We have a fair rate system. We will protect the rights of injured workers and their families and run an efficient Workers Compensation system. Education System Physical Education Curriculum Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speak- er, Dr. Henry Janzen has produced an extensive report on the quality and quantity of physical education in Manitoba schools.

The report notes that the expenditures of physical energy by students and the experience produces a lot of positive outcomes, better mental health and improved learning. Will the minister consider seriously the fact that physical education has strong support in Manitoba from parents, teachers and admini- strators and that a rece nt survey commissioned by the Manitoba Association of School Trustees shows virtually unanimous support for the benefit of daily mandatory physical education for all students? In coming to a decision on this

1484 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 1, 2003 question, I ask the Minister of Education whether he will be introducing mandatory daily physical education in Manitoba from kinder- garten to Senior 4. Hon. Ron Lemieux (Minister of Education and Youth): Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the question from the member from River Heights. As a former phys ed teacher and a teacher, I cer- tainly can appreciate a certain perspective. In order to promote increase in sustained physical activity opportunities in our communi- ties and in our province, our Government feels that we should take a multifaceted approach.

We have, for example, Lighthouse Projects for at- risk youth. We have Neighbourhoods Alive! pro- grams. We also are keep ing schools open after hours. Also, we have made a $1-million com- mitment to Sport Manitoba and KidSport to assist youth in our province. It is not just about receiving phys ed in school, it is also about providing opportunities for our youth outside of school, which we are doing. Mr. Speaker, I am pleased also to announce that as Minister of Education, part of our efforts is also recognizing the importance of physical activity.

We are going to announce October 18 to October 25 as Manitoba High School Sports Week. Thank you. Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, my second supple- mentary is to the Minister of Education. Unlike the Conservative Party which campaigned in the last provincial election to emphasize core subjects and decrease physical education in schools, the Liberal view is that physical education is very important not only to improve learning but to improve teamwork, to improve ethics, co-operation, communication and discipline.

I call today on the minister to introduce mandatory daily physical education from kinder- garten to Senior 4. Will the minister today give the Legislature a clear answer? In contrast to recent weeks where he has provided evasive nswers to all sorts of– a Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Lemieux: Mr. Speaker, it is a very impor- tant area as I mentioned before. We believe in a multifaceted approach. There are certain people that believe that sport is important, as we do, in school and music and art, as opposed to what the previous Conservative government was going to look at certain cuts with regard to art, phys ed, music.

We are not sure exactly where their promise was going, but I can guarantee you this Government will ensure that physical activity remains a priority for our youth, and not only our youth, all citizens of Manitoba should get more active and that is our approach. Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, we should have a clear answer instead of evasion. Ma question supplémentaire au ministre de l'Éducation: Contrairement au parti Conservateur qui a promis à la dernière élection de réduire les cours d'éducation physique dans nos écoles, le parti Libéral pense que l'éducation physique est très importante pour nos jeunes.

Je demande au ministre de dire aux Manitobains et aux Manito- baines qu'il va introduire–as soon as possible– des cours d'éducation physique de qualité chaque jour dans nos écoles, de la maternelle au secon- daire. Translation My supplementary question to the Minister of Education and Youth: Contrary to the Conser- vative Party which promised at the last election to reduce physical educ ation classes in our schools, the Liberal Party thinks that physical education is very important for our youth.

I ask the minister to tell Manitobans that he is going to introduce–as soon as possible–quality daily physical education classes in our schools, from kindergarten through the secondary level. Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, we are working through many of the recommenda- tions that were made in the Healthy Child report by Doctor Postl, and nurses in schools, pre- ventative health care, wellness, a number of other recommendations such as expanding the phys ed recommendation long before Doctor Janzen, a person who I respect, made that recommendation.

So, in terms of its merit, it is a very worthy recommendation. We have to find a way to operationalize some of the aspects of it every

October 1, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1485 day for every grade, a challenge with the exist- ing facilities. Certainly we know kids watch too much TV, but I would point out when the member is being critical of the Conservatives that he still has not told us how he is going to pay for $980 million in tax reductions and the alternative budget he is going to have. We would remind him that he has a lot of accounting to do to the people of Manitoba. Wind Power Economic Benefits Mr.

Stan Struthers (Dauphin-Roblin): Re- cently we have heard what I think is some very exciting news about wind farm development in Manitoba. Can the Minister of Energy, Science and Technology share with this House more details of the project and explain a little more about the economic impact this will have on our province of Manitoba? Hon. Tim Sale (Minister of Energy, Science and Technology): I was privileged with my honourable friend, the Me mber for Carman (Mr. Rocan), to attend an open house in the St.

Leon area earlier this year at which the enthusiasm from the farmers of th at community for a constant source of income that will provide them with ongoing benefits year after year, the enthusiasm from that French-Canadian com- munity, the Franco-Manitoban community, to have the jobs associated with the maintenance of the turbines, the approximately 250 person years of construction work that will be involved in the building of the wind farm. So I think we can see a first development assuming that the negotiation of a power purchase agreement continues to go well but that is a decision for Hydro, Mr.

Speaker, and that the company is able to secure the financing required for this. I am ve ry enthusiastic. They have moved quickly and they moved a great distance in a short time. Crime Rate Provincial Comparisons Mr. Gerald Hawran ik (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, Statistics Canada reported this morning that Manitoba had the highest rate of homicides in Canada for the third year in a row. Winnipeg had the highest rate of homicides among cities across Canada, and that rate is nearly twice the national average. I ask the Minister of Justice (Mr.

Mackintosh ) why under his watch for the last three years Winnipeg and Manitoba have the highest rates of homicides in Canada. Hon. Dave Chomiak (Acting Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, I can indicate that, as we speak, the Minister of Justice is attending a Justice ministers' meeting in which he is taking the lead on a number of related public safety issues including increasing child protection, increasing support for police, strengthening bail laws, reforming conditional sentencing laws and eliminating preliminary in- quiries.

These are initiatives that all deal with crime, security and safety of the public, and I am glad that our minister is at the conference taking the lead on all of these issues across the country. * (14:10) Mr. Hawranik: Mr. Speaker, there have been 17 homicides in Winnipeg so far this year and Winnipeg is again well on its way to having the highest rate of homicides in the country for the fourth year in a row. Since 1999, Winnipeg has seen a 50% increase in homicides and a 50% increase in attempted murders.

I ask the Minister of Justice: Will he take responsibility for making Winnipeg the murder capital of Canada, and when will he finally take action to reduce the homicide rates in Winnipeg? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, I do not think it does anyone justice to talk about Winnipeg being the murder capital of Canada. That unfortunate statistic first occurred in 1996 when members opposite were the government. I do not think it was appropriate then. I do not think it is appropriate now.

What I do think is appropriate is that this Government has taken a number of initiatives including: increased funding for police; historic levels of support for Prosecutions; legislation regarding Fortified Buildings Act, and Safer Communities and Neighbourhoods; 26 drug dens, sniff and prostitution houses shut down; a gang prosecution unit and RCMP gang unit, Mr. Speaker, all definitive activities taken to reduce and improve the security and welfare of all citizens.

1486 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 1, 2003 Manitoba Arts Council Criteria for Grants Mrs. Mavis Taillieu (Morris): Mr. Speaker, mouse droppings, dead ladybugs and twigs in vinyl tubes are being portrayed as art, as jewelry, with help from this Government. The Manitoba Arts Council has given a grant to a local artist to display this bizarre array of rings, necklaces and earrings. Can the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Tourism tell this House what the criteria are for getting an arts grant? Hon. Eric Robinson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Tourism): Mr.

Speaker, I would like to thank the member for the question. The artist that the member is referring to is some- thing that was just brought to my attention during the lunch hour. The grant was received from the Manitoba Arts Council, which is an agency which operates at arm's length from the Government. I do not believe that we as a government should be interfering in what grants the Manitoba Arts Council provides to artists in the province of Manitoba. I am quite acquainted with Winnipeg Blue Bombers which also receives money to a degree from the Province of Manitoba.

I do not think we interfere in the Blue Bombers, for example, in yanking a quarterback. Mrs. Taillieu: Mr. Speaker, it goes too far. The artist uses her own fingernails, her toenails and her pubic hair that she has been collecting for a year. She has attached this to a silver clasp shaped as a vagina and she expects people to wear this around their neck. It is a pure waste of taxpayers' money, yet it is out there on public display, no doubt available for children to see. Manitobans deserve better than this for their tax dollar.

Will the Minister of Culture honestly tell this House if he can consi- der this art and, if not, is he prepared to stop this public pubic display now and review the criteria for future grants? Mr. Robinson: Mr. Speaker, I have explained the process of the Manitoba Arts Council. I believe it would be inappropriate for me to second-guess the grant appl ication process. It is my understanding that there is a comprehensive process in place, a pure assessment process as well and analysis that determines an application in order for these artists to receive the grants that they do receive.

There is an old saying that one person's waste is another person's treasure. Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy Cash Advance for Producers Mrs. Leanne Ro wat (Minnedosa): Mr. Speak- er, this Government's arrogance and stubborn- ness is enhancing the stress and uncertainty that is building within our farm families as a result of the BSE crisis. This past week, the Souris School newsletter stated, and I quote: We are very aware about the farm crisis that is taking place in our region. We understand that not everyone at this time can afford to pay all of their student fees. Mr.

Speaker, does the Minister of Education (Mr. Lemieux) not realize how important the cash advance is to the children he is supposed to be representing and will he today press the Minister of Agriculture to provide the cash advance to the families so they can pay their everyday expenses? Hon. Rosann Wowchuk (Minister of Agriculture and Food): Mr. Speaker, I do not know when the Opposition is going to realize that there is cash available for producers. There is $100 million in low-interest loans that are available. People apply every day. There are loans being approved every day.

Over $12 mil- lion has already flowed and I would encourage he Opposition to start talking– t Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. M r. Speaker: Order. Ms. Wowchuk: I would encourage the Oppo- sition to take advantage of this and talk to producers about taking advantage of this service, rather than putting out advertisements that say, call my office if you are facing emotional hard- ship with the crisis or experiencing financial difficulty, as the Member for Arthur-Virden (Mr. Maguire) did.

October 1, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1487 They are taking those ads out. They are not encouraging people to use the professional ser- vices that are available. They want to play politics with this issue, try to attract calls for their constituency office, Mr. Speaker, when indeed they should be talking about the pro- grams and trying to help people, those that are in need of cash. Assistant Deputy Minister of Health Salary Justification Mrs. Bonnie Mitchels on (River East): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health.

I have asked on several occasions for the Minister of Health to justify the expenditure of almost $100,000 on an assistant deputy minister who has no staff that report to him and no one responsible to him, someone who is supposed to be doing special projects. Could the Minister of Health today indicate to me if he can just tell this House one special project that has been undertaken by this ADM which could justify $100,000 in taxpayers' ex- penditure? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, as I indicated on many occasions to the member, both during the Estimates debate and the debate on concurrence, it is noted quite clearly in the Estimates boo k that this individual is responsible for special projects, many of which are related to policy decisions and long- range policy decisions with respect to those being undertaken by the Government. One of the specific most crucial areas that he is working on is long-term work force planning and policy areas. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. Speaker's Statement Mr. Speaker: I have a short statement for the House.

Members may be aware that there are two bins placed on either side of the Chamber for the purpose of recycling Hansards. The Hansards that are placed in these bins are used to provide copies of Hansard for libraries as well as providing extra copies of Hansards for members who may require more than one copy of a Hansard from a particular day. We are trying to be environmentally friendly by recycling used copies of Hansard. Given that this session will be wrapping up today, if members no longer require their copies of Hansard and would like to recycle them, please place the copies in the bins.

Otherwise, if mem- bers would like to keep their copies of Hansard, please place the copies that you would like to keep in your desk or take them with you. I thank all members for that. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Mahatma Gandhi Mr. Bidhu Jha (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, I am honoured to make this statement at the Thirty- eighth Legislature of Manitoba to celebrate the 134th anniversary of Mahatma Gandhi's birth. October 2 will remain a day to remind us that Mahatma, which translated into English means the "Great Soul," was born to give the world a new message of co-existence and peace.

Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi was born in a small town of Gujarat, India, on the 2nd of October in 1869. He was born in an educated and business class family of Porbunder. His parents sent him to higher education to several well-known, affluent schools for a high school diploma and later on to England for higher studies. As a young barrister, Gandhi went to join a law firm in South Africa and faced dis- crimination right from the railway station, which barred any man of colour to sit alongside of any white person in the first-class compartment.

Even though Gandhi had purchased the proper first-class ticket and was a barrister, he was thrown out of the compartment due to the prevailing law of discrimination. Ms. Bonnie Korzeniowski, Acting Speaker, in the Chair Gandhi decided to remain in South Africa and fight race prejudice. This was the beginning

1488 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 1, 2003 of the real incarnation of Mahatma, which means "Great Soul," in his personality. Our world wit- nessed a peaceful, non-violent evolution which liberated 418 million people of India to freedom on the 15th of August, 1949. * (14:20) His was an extraordinary life. As a true pilgrim of peace and non-violence, Mahatma Gandhi pursued his quest of truth with a rare strength of conviction of non-violence and fearlessness. All through his life, he worked for peace and harmony and ultimately laid down his own life for these ideals.

Madam Acting Speaker, in today's world, which is afflicted by anger, hatred, terror and violence, Mahatma Gandhi's message of toler- ance, love and compassion is truly relevant and is needed to heal the human soul. The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bonnie Korzeniowski): Order, please. Some Honourable Members: Leave. The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bonnie Korzeniowski): Leave is granted. Mr. Jha: Indeed, his ideas and philosophy of fighting wars with the most powerful weapon of non-violence and love, causing the enemy to surrender, have left an indelible imprint on this earth. He was remembered by many as a man of the millennium.

Many consider him as an incarnation of Christ and Buddha. I am also pleased to state, Madam Acting Speaker, that along with Doctor Vedanand, a true Gandhian scholar in Winnipeg, myself and many other community leaders are engaged in establishing a memorial to this great soul in order to preserve the legacy of his ideals and to promote religious harmony, non-violence and social justice. Thank you. Jarino Timmerman Mr.

Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Madam Acting Speaker, I would like to put a few words on the record on behalf of a great Canadian, a great Manitoban and a great constituent of Kirkfield Park, Mr. Jarino Timmerman. Mr. Jarino Timmerman was born in Rotter- dam in 1909, but he came to Canada at the young age of four and had a tremendous impact not only in his community but I think throughout the province. He settled in Hillbury, Manitoba, and later moved to Winnipeg. His father, Madam Acting Speaker, had been given a parcel of land. That was an incentive that allowed Mr.

Tim- merman to come to Manitoba and settle himself there and raise his family. With respect to community service, Mr. Timmerman lived a very, very rich life. I think it was very evident in the fact that he served as a Sunday school teacher for many years at the Salvation Army Church. He believed very, very strongly in what the Salvation Army can do. In fact, his son, Don Timmerman, continues, as does his family, on with the Salvation Army, knowing how well it serves the community.

He served as a treasurer and chair of the finance committee of the church, because he believed that they would be a fiscal and respon- sible institution in the community. For many years he served on the board of management at the Grace Hospital. Again, as a believer in community health and in delivering health care services to the community, he believed in Grace Hospital, again, which is a strong proponent and supported by the Salvation Army. He has been made a life member of the Salvation Army Advisory Board because of his contributions and because he was recognized as such a strong leader.

He has received many awards over the years as well as holding 19 records in master's swimming, something that he believes in in terms of physical education, in terms of ensuring that you always take care of your own self and your own body and ensure that your health is something that is much of a priority. He has spoken to schools and seniors' groups about healthy lifestyles and I would like to say thank you very much to the House. I would like to say that in June 17, 2003, he was presented the Governor General's Caring Cana- dian Awards to recognize the importance that he put on community living.

I am delighted that he

October 1, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1489 is a constituent and is somebody I am very, very proud of. Thank you very much. Mathias Colomb Cree Nation Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): Madam Acting Speaker, I am very pleased today to con- gratulate the Mathias Colomb Cree Nation, also known as Pukatawagan, on the signing of their Treaty Land Entitlement Agreement with the provincial and federal governments. This has been a very, very long process. Allow me to provide a little historical context. MCCN was part of the James Roberts First Nation of Montreal Lake, Saskatchewan.

Treaty No. 6 was signed with this First Nation in 1875. Mathias Colomb Cree Nation was formed in 1910 as a group which had separated from the Peter Ballantyne Cree Nation. Based on the original survey, there was a shortfall of 13 865 acres or 32 percent of the land amount to which MCCN was entitled. This is the basis for the TLE claim by Mathias Colomb Cree Nation. During negotiation of the 1997 Treaty Land Entitlement (TLE) Framework Agreement; in the entitlement First Nations negotiated the allocation of land and funding based on the relative shortfall of land which had occurred.

This resulted in an entitlement to Mathias Colomb of 234 371 acres. The TLE Framework Agreement was signed on May 29, 1997 by Canada, Manitoba and the TLE Committee of Manitoba which represented 19 bands with outstanding TLE claims. Under the terms of the Framework Agreement, each band is to begin ratifying the agreement within 18 months from the date of signing the Framework Agreement. Congratulations to everyone involved in seeing this process through. I look forward to visiting the community in the near future to talk to the residents about this landmark achieve- ment. Thank you. Women's History Month Mrs.

Leanne Ro wat (Minnedosa): Madam Acting Speaker, it is with great pleasure that I rise today to commemorate Women's History Month, which recognizes the achievements of women as a vital part of our Canadian heritage. I am very proud to recognize this year's theme: "What do you mean, women couldn't vote?" I am especially pleased to continue Mani- toba's tradition of women's active participation in our democratic process, a process that began in the kitchens and parlours of rural Manitoba. In the 1860s, women united in the pursuit of moral and social welfare which eventually turned into the suffrage movement.

Manitoba women were no strangers to this movement. Indeed, the fight to secure the right for Manitoba women to vote is one of the more colourful chapters in our province's history. Countless women dedicated thousands of hours of their time to ensuring Manitoba women became the first in Canada to vote. The drive to secure the vote for Manitoba women took many forms, one of them parti- cularly memorable.

In 1914, Nellie McClung, a one-time resident of Wawanesa, a progressive community within my constituency of Minne- dosa, led the charge when a women's mock parliament was staged where disenfranchised men petitioned women lawmakers. Ms. McClung's portrayal of then-Premier Sir Rodman Roblin was said to have brought down the house. Manitoba women secured the right to vote in 1916.

We are pleased to be able to claim Nellie McClung as a Manitoban for the years that she spent lobbying the provincial government in her work as founding member of the Political Equality League, and we recognize that it was only through the hard work of these pioneering women that young women today take for granted the right to be active participants in our political process. Mr.

Speaker in the Chair We hope that young women contemplating their future will look to women such as Nellie McClung as an example of what any of us can achieve through hard work, dedication and perseverance, and we hope that women will continue to look at ways to ensure their voices

1490 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 1, 2003 are heard and their contributions are welcomed in building a better future for Manitoba. To share a famous Nellie McClung quote: "Disturbers are never popular. Nobody ever really loved an alarm cl ock in action, no matter how grateful they may have been afterwards for its kind services." Mr. Speaker, we are grateful that so many Canadian women have taken the time to create a disturbance in order to secure the betterment of others.

I hope that all Manitobans will take some time during Women's History Month to ac- knowledge the dedication of women who have shaped and those women who have yet to shape the future of our fine province. Thank you. * (14:30) Canadian Centre for Disease Control Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speak- er, I call on all members of this Chamber to support the proposed Canadian Centre for Disease Control to be located in Winnipeg. We have an opportunity as a community and as a province to build upon the position that we hold in the scientific community in Canada.

This lab, if located in Winnipeg, would bring spe- cialists and related workers to the province, enhancing the research capabilities that are already– Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Russell, on a point of order. Mr. Leonard Derkach (Official Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, the provisions of this House have just been tremendously trans- gressed. I think it is a known fact that members of the Legislature respect this Chamber as one where electronic devices, including wirings, are not allowed in the Chamber. Mr.

Speaker, this morning we had the discussion as House leaders regarding this issue. It was my understanding that this issue was communicated to the Leader of the Liberal Party, to the independent member if you like, that this was not an allowable practice. We have a wired device in this Chamber right now, and I am asking you as Speaker of this House to rule that security seize this piece of equipment immediately. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Inkster, on the same point of order? Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr.

Speaker, I think that, out of respect for all members, maybe we can just kind of expand in terms of what has actually taken place. The Leader of the Liberal Party was approached to do a day in the life of the member from River Heights, if you like. The member from River Heights is not trying to offend anyone inside this Chamber. He was asked– [interjection] No, if we just go hrough it. t The leader of the party was asked if he would be comfortable in terms of wearing a mike throughout the day. We indicated that would be the case. There were some concerns in terms of being able to come into the Chamber.

We then indicated that we would have to get it confirmed. We contacted the Speaker's office. The Speaker's office told us that he would not be able to use a mike inside the Chamber. It was genuinely felt that, just like if someone carries in a cassette, which is a small tape recorder and it is turned off, as long as it is off, and that is the intent. The member from Carman, I believe it was, asked, and the leader at the beginning of Question Period indicated that it was, in fact, off. There was nothing that was done to intentionally offend people.

But, if members are offended, the Leader of the Liberal Party has already given it to me. I am more than happy to take it outside of the Chamber. I really do not think there was any intention on anyone's part, whether it is the Leader of the Liberal Party or myself, to try to take any rights away from the hamber. C With due respect and with co-operation, I am sure people will understand what has taken place. I do not necessarily see the benefit of having security take a CBC mike if they feel that there is some strategic value for it. I guess they can go on and do that. Otherwise, Mr. Speaker, I

October 1, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1491 would ask for consideration of the facts that ultimately led to today. I can assure you that no member's rights were being taken because it was off. In regard to the Opposition House Leader asking with regard to the CBC camera, I can indicate that, when we were asked about CBC being able to come into the press gallery, the press gallery is open to the press at any time. My understanding, I have seen CBC, CTV, other cameras inside the press gallery throughout the day. But I do not believe, Mr. Speaker, that is any change.

I am sure the individual who had the cam- era, who scooted out rather quickly, probably does not understand what the Chamber policy is. But, Mr. Speaker, with all due respect, whether it is myself or the Leader of the Liberal Party, we will, in fact, respect the rules of this Chamber and will continue to do so. Mr. Speaker: Before recognizing the honour- able Deputy Government House Leader, I would like to make sure that the recorder stays in the House until I deal with this matter. Hon. Steve Ashton (Deputy Government House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, I appreciate the explanation from the Liberal member, but I think this is indeed a very important point that is raised by the Opposition House Leader (Mr. Derkach). We have tradition in the House. We have rules that govern the use of recording devices whether it be in the gallery. We often have tourists who come in who are advised that they are unable to take pictures. There is different protocol, I realize, in terms of the press gallery, but I think notwithstanding the explanation, Mr. Speaker, that the device was not turned on.

I think this may be a real opportunity to make sure that it is a ruling that such devices should never be worn in this House. Mr. Speaker, we have a very public system. Members of the public are able to come here at any given point in time and observe the proceedings. Over time, we have developed a system where Question Period is televised. The sound of this Chamber right now is being carried, so there is no issue here of the Chamber itself, whether it is being covered or not. I appreciate there may have been some misunderstandings here, but my suggestion, Mr.

Speaker, is we should take the–I assume it was a point of order raised by the Opposition House Leader. I think it is indeed a point. Certainly, the use of those devices in this Chamber is inap- propriate. Quite frankly, I wish people would leave their cell phones out of the Chamber, as well, at times, but that is a personal comment, because often, again, people think the devices are turned on. We do not know. We find on occasion that they actually are, when people attempt to phone here. But this is a very serious matter.

One of the key elements of the priv ileges of this Legis- lature, the privileges of Parliament, is the ability that you have, Mr. Speaker, on behalf of mem- bers, effectively on behalf of the people of this province, to have rules that are clearly defined procedures and practices that are respected, and I think it is one fundamental situation here, and that is that wireless devices of any kind, whether they are turned on or off or whether they are brought in inadvertently or not, I do not foresee any situation in which that would be changed. It is clearly in violation of the rules.

In fact, when I was in parts of discussions earlier on behalf of our caucus as acting House Leader, we made it very clear that from our perspective such devices had no place in this Chamber when the House is sitting. I would urge you, Mr. Speaker, to rule that, regardless of the specific facts and purposes, from now on it be very clear that those kinds of wireless devices not be brought into the House, period. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for River Heights, and then I will go back to the honourable Official Opposition House Leader. The honourable Member for River Heights, on the same point of order. Mr.

Gerrard: First of all, I want to apologize to members of the House. I did not intend to do

1492 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 1, 2003 anything which was against the rules of the House. I had asked for the Speaker's office to be checked with this morning in terms of what was the approach. As of the time that I walked back in here, I had not been communicated with. I asked the Member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) to check with my assistant in my office and make sure that there had not been a message when we were in here. I think she was not immediately there so I did not have a clear answer.

What I think is important is that, if we are talking about electronic devices like cell phones not being in here or not being on, it be very clear in terms of policy. But I apologize to the House because I did not intend to do anything against the rules of the House. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Official Oppo- sition House Leader, on the same point of order, if you have new information. (14:40) Mr.

Derkach: Just new information and very quickly, not to prolong this process, but this is a transmitting device, I understand, and if it is a transmitting device, we do not know what private conversations may have been transmitted onto a tape that is held outside this Chamber. Because of my caucus member's proximity to the Leader of the Liberal Party, I have some real concern about what may have been trans- mitted onto tape from private conversations that may have been occurring around that member.

So, on that basis, I request that the tape that this was transmitted to be first of all seized by your office and then screened so that no private conversations would have been transmitted onto that tape. Mr. Speaker: Seeing no one else wants to make a contribution to the point of order, I have three issues to deal with. First of all, I received a call from the honourable member's office, not from him personally but from his office, and I dealt with it accordingly, because our rules are very clear that there are to be no electronic devices brought into the Chamber.

The only way any rule of the House could be bypassed would have to be unanimous consent of the House. In order to see if there is a will, I contacted both House leaders and there was a resounding that there was no agreement. The reason why we have that rule, and also I can understand why the House leaders did not agree to the process, is because for one thing, members that have privat e conversations are to be kept private. The other thing is, at times, I know it is a very rare occasion, but you get members heckling back and forth, and some- times the heckling can get a little heated.

Third reason is the privacy of the House. Only mem- bers recorded in this Chamber are the members that have the floor, unless there are loud conversations that are pi cked up by the floor mikes, or whatever. So that is the reasoning. I immediately con- tacted the member's office, and I relayed that message to the member's personnel in the office. I was assured that the message would get to the honourable member, that I would not allow electronic devices in the Chamber. Second, the gentleman that was filming here. We have a press club.

They have an acting president, and the media outlets belong to the Press Club Association. Any other media that do not belong to the press club have to seek per- mission from the acting president. Once that is obtained, we allow filming from the doorways, not from right over the balcony, because what could happen is some private papers could be filmed. That is the reason for that. Thirdly, if that is a transmitting device that is taping elsewhere, I would like to see and be given that copy of that tape so I can listen to it.

Right now, the House, myself as the Speaker, I do not condone the usage of that tape at this moment. I would like to be given that tape, so I can listen to it. In the future, to all members that are carrying or using electronic devices, and that includes cell phones, that is why we ask them to be turned off, that we do not allow electronic devices in the Chamber. So, if I could ask the honourable Member for River Heights (Mr. Ge rrard) that I be given the tape to listen to it, and then I will deal with it

October 1, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1493 after I have listened to it. I believe that should take care of the matter. The honourable Member for Inkster, on another point of order? Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Speaker, yes, just to hopefully conclude it. What I will do is I have the receiver that is in question and would ask a page maybe to come fo rward, and they can provide it to you in your office. The owner of this is CBC.

In terms of the Question Period portion or any time either before or after that that is perceived as the member having worn it inside the Chamber, we do not have any problem with the Speaker approaching CBC and asking to be able to take a look at that portion. We are quite happy with your ruling, and we will leave it at that if the Speaker is prepared to accept it. Mr. Speaker: We thank the honourable Member for Inkster, and, if you will kindly bring that here, I will deal with it as soon as we have time this afternoon. * * * Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for River Heights is on a member's statement. Mr.

Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, there are a number of reasons that Winnipeg would be the logical place for the Canadian Centre for Disease Control.

(1) We have the present lab and the virology lab, more formally known as the Canadian Science Centre for Human and Animal Health. Winnipeg has the best Level 4 lab in the world.

(2) Winnipeg is the centre of Canada. Shipping times can be shortened and the Central time zone works well for communication with the rest of Canada.

(3) Manitoba has an excellent reputation in infectious disease. Many of the prominent people in Canada connected with infectious disease have received their training in Manitoba.

(4) All public health areas are impor- tant to Manitoba. We are dealing with the all- party task force on smoking, have been talking about physical exercise and the importance of it in preventative health. So I call for all-party co- operation in this Chamber to put forward a strong, logical case to the federal government for locating the Canadian Centre for Disease Control in Winnipeg, Manitoba. Mr. Speaker: Before I call for Grievances, I would just like to let members know when I mentioned electronic devices, there has been agreement by all members of the House for use of laptops and Blackberries.

So that is not under the same rule as electronic devices– Some Honourable Members: Recording de- vices. Mr. Speaker: As recording devices, cell phones. That is just for clarification purposes. ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS Motions of Condolence Mr. Speaker: As previously agreed by motion, we will now deal with condolences. Reverend Donald Malinowski Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): I move, seconded by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Murray), THAT this House convey to the family of the late Donald Malinowski, who served as a mem- ber of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba, its sincere sympathy in their bereavement and its appreciation of his devotion to duty in a useful life of active community and public service, and that Mr. Speaker be requested to forward a copy of this resolution to the family. Motion presented. Mr. Doer: It is an honour for me to have the opportunity to speak to this condolence motion of the Very Rev.

Donald Marto Malinowski, or, as most of us called him, Father Don, a person who, besides being a war hero for democracy against oppressions of totalitarian regimes, was a person, a man of the cloth and, in terms of the North End of the city of Winnipeg, a man of the people. * (14:50) Mr. Speaker, I have had the opportunity to know Father Malinowski, and, certainly, I have always been impressed by his knowledge of his

1494 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 1, 2003 community and have always been inspired by his dedication to the people he served, sometimes the people that worked on the edges of our community in terms of economic opportunity, but he was always able to see the best in people and always saw the hope that was necessary for people that he represented. Mr. Speaker, Father Don, or the Very Rev. Donald Malinowski, had a 17-year career in this Chamber, a 17-year career.

Right now, there is probably only one other member who has had that long a period of time, or maybe two members, I am sorry, if we look at the period of time, who have been elected for this period of time. I know there are two members in this Chamber who did serve in his last term in office between 1981 and 1986. I know, certainly, he was elected in the Schreyer election in 1969. I believe it was in, I better get the right seat because I know he was the Member for St. Johns, but he was elected in Point Douglas in '69 and '73 and then in St. Johns in 1981. He won four elections. He won in '69, '73, '77 and '81.

He had a cherished career in this Chamber, and he performed, I think, admi- rably for the people of this province. I would like to offer my sincere condolences to his wife, Anna, his children, Octavia and Donald, and to his very, very extended family that had an opportunity to celebrate his life just recently with the service that was performed on his behalf. Donald Malinowski was the first priest to run for a seat in this Manitoba Legislature. He always said he felt at home with his dual role as a pastor and a politician. Mr.

Speaker, Father Malinowski was born in 1924 in eastern Poland, an area of the world that was caught between the Nazis and the Com- munists. He saw the brutality first-hand of Adolf Hitler and of Joseph Stalin. As a teenager, Father Malinowski fought with the Polish partisans who were loyal to Poland's government in exile in London. He was wounded three times during these hostilities. The Communist government of Poland arrested Father Malinowski and he was sentenced to death after he refused to pledge allegiance to the new regime.

After 78 days of imprisonment, he escaped to Sweden with the help of the underground and two of his cousins. Both cousins were sentenced to prison terms for elping a fugitive. h Later in life, Father Malinowski put one of his cousins' sons through university and helped another move to Winnipeg. Father Malinowski emigrated to Canada in 1950. He entered the Polish National Catholic Church seminary in Scranton, Pennsylvania in 1952. After becoming a priest, he married Anna Glazer, a nurse. They served in a parish in New York state before moving to Winnipeg in 1959.

In Winnipeg, Father Malinowski became deeply enmeshed in the life of the Polish com- munity and played a key role in developing seven housing projects in Point Douglas. He was also the parish priest in St. Mary's Polish National Catholic Church in north end Win- nipeg. By 1972, he was in charge of all parishes in western Canada. As a result of his exceptional service to others, he was made a member of the Order of Canada. He was awarded the Order of St. John of Jerusalem Knights of Malta and presented with the Polonia Gold Medal.

He organized the Polish Relief Fund which provided aid to Poland in the 1980s during the Lech Walesa Solidarity movement when they were challenging the Communist government. The relief fund also helped Polish refugees living in camps in Austria. This was a great area of satisfaction to Father Malinowski that he was able to be part of the aid to Poland to free the people from the brutal dictatorship of the Communists and to have his people begin the process of living in a free society, in a democratic society. Today, looking back, we remember the man's humour.

I certainly remember that he always had a smile and a joke and a little sug- gestion for us, his obvious passion that put his life in peril during those very difficult times, and his dedication to his constituents–his consti- tuents not only who elected him and re-elected him, and re-elected him, but the constituents who were of the world, the people of the world he saw as his whole constituency. He saw the nourishment of their spirit as also very much part of his role on this earth.

October 1, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1495 Former Premier Schreyer, whom Father Malinowski served with, told the story of how the bishop was arriving in Winnipeg and a welcome banner read: Welcome bishop, and the other term was "nasz," "nasz" meaning "our" in Polish. In the local paper, the sign was distorted and appeared to read: Welcome NDP bishop. It was a long-running joke between Father Malin- owski and Mr. Schreyer. I am not sure who laughed hardest about that joke, but, certainly, it is a story that Ed Schreyer tells all of us.

Today, I would like to join with my col- leagues in the House in paying tribute to the Very Rev. Donald Malinowski, a dedicated and unselfish human being and a distinguished member of this House, of this city, of this country Canada and of the people of the world who believed in freedom and democracy in their countries. Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I, too, would like to join the First Minister on behalf of a Progressive Conservative caucus to put some thoughts on the record in respect of the passing of Mr. Donald Malinowski.

Although I did not have the same relation- ship with Mr. Malinowski as the First Minister talked about, I was very, very impressed and touched by the fact that he was an individual who believed very strongly in causes, as was demonstrated in the fact that he was a Polish partisan fighting against the Nazis, somebody who was captured, was supposed to have been executed, but found himself pursuing freedom and, I think, the fact that he ended up being a man of the cloth and, as I understand, as mentioned, he was the first priest to run for the Manitoba Legislature.

I think it says a tremendous amount about the character of anybody who wants to stand and run, but somebody who obviously is a person of the cloth who believes in the greater being and the greater good of being on earth and trying to make a difference. I believe that Mr. Malinowski showed that, and whether it was here in this Chamber or whether it was out in the com- munity, clearly, he demonstrated leadership, and his first importance of being there was always the people that he represented regardless of any political stripe at all, Mr. Speaker.

I also find it interesting that he oversaw the construction of a new church on Burrows Av- enue, and spearheaded the construction of a seniors housing project in Point Douglas, Mr. Speaker, and, as mentioned, was awarded for that hard work with the Order of Canada, the Order of St. John of Jerusalem Knights of Malta and the Polonia Gold Medal, clearly somebody who was very deserving of those rewards. On behalf of the Progressive Conservative caucus, our sympathies and, frankly, our thanks for having somebody like that be part of this Chamber. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Hon.

Steve Ashton (Minister of Labour and Immigration): Mr. Speaker, when I was first elected to this Legislature as a young member, a new member, I still remember coming into this wonderful building, a building I would visit on occasion, but in a very different role, and as I first went to a caucus meeting, I was struck by what an impressive group of individuals I was privileged to be sitting with, both in the caucus and also in the Manitoba Legislature.

What I was struck by, by the way, was how quickly I was welcomed, how helpful people were and how very soon I started to appreciate the very unique nature of so many of the MLAs hat I was sitting with. t * (15:00) It always struck me that Father Malinowski was, in his own way, one of the most unique. The Premier and the Leader of the Opposition have referenced Father Malinowski's very courageous background in the Second World War.

You know, what always struck me, as I learned more about Father Don's background and from talking to people who knew about this background, is how it contrasted, you know, this terrible experience that so many people in Poland and all over Europe experienced, first with the Second World War and then with the subsequent Soviet occupation. What struck me was how Father Don never really showed the scars that he must have experienced, the scars of war, the scars of being held a captive, and the scars of having to have fled his home country to

1496 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 1, 2003 find a new future. The irony, of course, of the experience of so many people in eastern Europe who, having fought against one form of totali- tarianism, were then victimized by another. But, you know, Father Don had not forgot- ten this experience. I remember that at times, I think it was a different er a fortunately, we tend- ed in our Legislature to have comments that were thrown back and fort h that really I thought had no place. Some of them were perhaps in jest.

I remember when the NDP were called a bunch of atheists, and, of course, I looked around at Father Malinowski and I kind of chuckled at that. Sometimes we are called teachers and preachers, and I kind of looked around and I said, well, maybe there is some truth in that description. What used to strike me was the fact that this was still an era when people would throw other epithets, commie, which was thrown on more occasions than one. Father Malinowski– I remember the only time I really saw him not smiling was when that epithet was thrown, I think, at him or just generally.

I am not one that believes that that epithet should be thrown at anyone in terms of what it usually is meant to symbolize, because I respect all political views and opinions, but I remember one time Father Malinowski was particularly upset and I had never seen him that way. I remember him com- ing into the caucus afterwards, and he said that it really bothered him and it bothered him because, he said, when the Soviets took over, the first people they arrested were the socialists and social democrats. Mr.

Speaker, it was about the one time I had seen him angry because here was somebody who had been the victim, the country had been the victim of totalitarianism, and he had stood for freedom. It made no difference to him what the form of totalitarianism was. I thought his com- ments were really an indication that the Father Malinowski that we saw on a daily basis, who as the Premier (Mr. Doer) sa id, always had a smile on his face, never forgot what totalitarianism was all about. I think that was something that was important.

I cannot say enough how respected Father Malinowski was, in the Polish community for sure, and not just in terms of his role as a minister. I think that was certainly part of it, but he was such a passionate believer in Poland and Polish nationalism. As we learn today, those who are not aware of wh at he experienced to deal with that, I think you can understand the passion that I always find when I talk to many people of Polish background in Manitoba, who have seen a nation that had disappeared from the map but never disappeared in the heart of Poles.

Father Malinowski, I think, typified that, but there is something else about Father Don as well, too. He was elected in a very unique change in the era of political history of Manitoba, 1969, when many exciting things happened in this province, the Schreyer government. One thing about Father Don, he put his constituents first. One thing he did, he always had time for his constituents, and as a new mem- ber, I was always impressed by that. As I think back, I think that Father Malinowski will be re- membered in many ways. Those that will know, will know him as a hero.

There will be others that will know him as a long-serving member of the Legislature. Others will know him as a min- ister. I suspect there will be equally as many that perhaps never knew the real depth of Father Malinowski, who will remember him because he helped them out; he helped his constituents; he fought for the little people. We do not even talk that way sometimes, but there are a lot of people out there in society who do not have access to power, who do not have power. When they need help, they turn to people like Father Malinowski, and many did.

That is why he was so successful, I believe, politically but, more importantly, as an individual. I know he had a happy retirement after- wards. I remember talking to him. He particu- larly liked Hawaii. I know, certainly, he was one to go there, and when he was out on the coast. I always felt, when I heard the news about his passing, that if there was one thing, I wished I had one more chance to see Father Malinowski. He was always friendly, by the way, to not just myself, but to my wife and my two then young children.

Just to see that smile one more time would have been, I think a fitting way to say goodbye to a remarkable person, a h e r o i n m a n y w a y s , Mr. Speaker, and a fine member of this Legisla- ture.

October 1, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1497 Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I rise to say a few words about Donald Malinowski and his contributions. I had the honour and the privilege of attend- ing the funeral of Donald Malinowski. I did so because of his record here and because of his service not only to Manitoba but his service as a representative of the Polish community in Mani- toba.

He clearly had some extraordinary experi- ences in the Second World War, the tragic loss of many family members and, yet, he was able to build a life after the war in Manitoba to represent his community well, to help move things for- ward in providing for long-term care and for health care facilities. I would like to put on the record, Mr. Speak- er, my condolences to the family and friends of Mr. Malinowski and my deep respect for him as a representative of the Polish community and a representative who spoke for some of the impor- tant needs of people in Winnipeg in health care. Mr.

Conrad Santos (Wellington): Mr. Speaker, this Member for Wellington wishes to pay trib- ute to the three-term member of the Legislative Assembly for Point Douglas and then the MLA for St. Johns. Way back in 1981 I was assigned a seat beside Father Don. I did not complain because he was nice to talk with. One time I asked him: Being a veteran MLA, are you not regretful that you have not been a Cabinet minister? He smiled at me and said, Conrad, Cabinet ministers come and go, but I am always a minister.

When I was a studen t, I had friends from other countries, but the closest I came to, aside from people from the East, were the Polish stu- dents. I do not know why, but we ate the same food, enjoyed the same culture because we came from Catholic countries–maybe that was the explanation–and so I was very comfortable sit- ting with the Father. So I asked myself then and ask now: What can I learn from this gentleman, a partisan fighter, a preaching prie st and an elegant and effective politician?

If I were to summarize what I learned from him, it would be captured by three virtues: the virtue of commitment, the vir- tue of courage and the virtue of compassion. Commitment means voluntary pledging of oneself to a worthy cause or a grand purpose in life. The Father's commitment is the commit- ment to freedom and to democracy, and that was proven when he enlisted himself as a young man in the Armia Krajowa, as the Premier (Mr. Doer) alluded to, loyal to the Polish government in exile in the United Kingdom. He fought with the rest of the Partisans in the Swietokryskich Mountains.

That was their base of operation, hit- and-run kind of fighting against the Nazis. When the Nazis were driven out and the Soviets took over eastern Poland, as the Member for Thomp- son (Mr. Ashton) said, he was one of those who was arrested, and after a trial, he was sentenced to death. Luckily for him, he was able to escape, live a life of hit and run and somehow managed to get into a country called Sweden. * (15:10) Sojourning in Sweden for at least three years, he had observed and subconsciously absorbed in his system the basic principles of democratic socialism.

Some of these principles, among others, include the public ownership of great enterprises, utilities and transportation systems, the government regulation of economic activities of private corporations and private enterprises, and the extensive network of social assistance and pension systems for the Swedish people. That was absorbed by the Father, and when he immigrated to Canada and then to the United States, he carried these values with him.

The courage was shown and the com- mitment was shown when, as MLA for Point Douglas, he spearheaded and monitored seven housing projects, including the building of the Polish Manor in the district of Point Douglas. As the Premier alluded to, he also was active in the Polish Relief Program to help Lech Walesa's Solidarity movement against the Communists, and also to help the refugees who were living in camps in Austria. This is compassion at its best, not in words, but in action. So let me conclude by saying that Donald Malinowski's life is a life of commitment,

1498 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 1, 2003 courage and compassion. Life on this earth is so short, so uncertain, that Solomon said: As for man, he is like a grass, and he flourishes like the flower of the grass, but when the wind passes over, then he is gone and the place remembereth him no more. But we do remember the Father, because his virtues outliv e his frail, 89-year-old body. The virtues of courage, of compassion, of commitment outlive the physical physiological body of us, worthy of emulating in our short and uncertain life.

As the son of King David said, King Solomon: For the living knoweth that they shall die, but the dead know it not anymore. Even their love and their hatred and their envy are all perished. Go thy way. Eat thy bread with joy. Drink thine wine with a merry heart. Live joyfully with a wife whom thou lovest all the days of thy life of vanity, because that is your portion in this life and your share of all the labour that you have done under the sun. Whatever things you have to do, do it with all thy might.

Let thy garment be always white and thy head lack no ointment, for it came and I saw that the race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, nor bread to the wise, nor riches to the man of understanding, but time and chance happeneth to them all. Mr. Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt this motion? Motion agreed to. Mr. Speaker: Would honourable members please rise and remain standing to indicate their support of this motion. A moment of silence was observed. Mr. Nelson Shoemaker Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): I move, seconded by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Murray), THAT this House convey to the family of the late Nelson Shoemaker, who served as a member of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba, its sincere sympathy in their bereavement and its appreciation of his devotion to duty and a useful life of active community and public service, and that Mr. Speaker be requested to forward a copy of this resolution to the family. Motion presented. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, I rise today to reflect on the life of former MLA Nelson Shoemaker and also to offer my condolences and our condo- lences to his two daughters, his five grand- children and his six great-grandchildren.

Nelson was an active member of the Neepawa and Gladstone communities. I believe he was born in Grandview, Manitoba. He obviously had an ability to pick some of the most beautiful communities in Manitoba to re- side in. He served as a representative with great pride for 11 years. He certainly made his mark on his local community and placed the good of his constituents first and foremost. Mr. Conrad Santos, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair Mr. Shoemaker was elected in 1958 as MLA for Gladstone. He was re-elected three times subsequent to that, in '59, '62 and '66. In the 1969 election, he was just narrowly defeated.

This, of course, was in a time, as I recall, in history where former Premier Roblin was quite successful in winning a number of seats in the province of Manitoba. He, as a Liberal member, would have had to continue and be re-elected and re-elected again upon his own individual merit and his own community standing. He enjoyed a very active life before entering politics. He was a director of the associated hospitals of Manitoba. Then he was elected to a position on the council of the Town of Neepawa. * (15:20) Mr.

Shoemaker was also a member of the Neepawa Lions Club, the Real Estate Board of Manitoba, and the Insura nce Agents Association of Manitoba. He was an avid curler. He was secretary-treasurer of the Neepawa Curling Club from 1952 until shortly before his death. As a young adult in the 1930s, Mr. Shoemaker raised chickens and bees and traded fur, honey and eggs to make a living. He successfully weathered the difficult thirties and emerged to become a partner in Shoemaker- McGillivray Insurance in Neepawa, which

October 1, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1499 expanded beyond life insurance to include real estate and travel business. Later, Nelson reluct- antly retired and sold the business, now known as Gill & Schmall Agencies. I would think, and I am not sure for certain, but I am sure that Nelson would have known my grandfather, Sam Seaborn, who had a business at that time in Neepawa. It was a bakery and a store.

I know, in talking or listening to my grandfather and then later my mother about my grandfather's life, I know how difficult it was in Neepawa in the 1930s, and how anybody that was in business during the 1930s would make just enough to get by, be cause, as a member of that community, you had to make sure there was enough for other people to survive. I am sure the Shoemaker family would have known the Seaborn family in that beautiful community of Neepawa, where my mother was born. Nelson Shoemaker and his wife spent their retirement in Neepawa, travelling often until health prevented it.

Otherwise, he will long be remembered as a tremendous asset to his com- munity. I would like to join with my colleagues in this Legislature in recognizing a very successful political career, a very successful business career, a very successful set of activities in his community, and, obviously, a dedicated member of his family who leaves, as I guess the saying goes, a tremendous number of children, grand- children and great-grandchildren. I think it is the folk song that made the statement: We rise again in the faces of our children. With Nelson Shoemaker, certainly, that is a testament to his life. Hon.

Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I rise to express my condo- lences to the family and friends of Nelson Shoemaker. I rise to pay honour and tribute to the career of Nelson Shoemaker, who was born February 17, 1911, near Grandview on their family farm. He received his education in a one- room school. He began his business career in 1931, when he accepted the Neepawa dealership for Watkins Grandview. Nelson married Edith Ford, a teacher, in 1933. They have two daughters, Penny and Erin. I think it is of interest that over time his business career developed.

He assumed the busi- ness of McKenzie Insurance, in partnership with Jack McGillivray. Then, in time, Homer Gill became Nelson Shoemaker's partner. They worked together for many years. It is interesting, Mr. Homer Gill, who is here today, told me that when he became a partner, it was Mr. Shoemaker's habit to not have air conditioning in the summer when it was very hot. To accommodate this, he made sure he had his summer holidays at the hottest time of the year. Of course, that left Homer Gill as the partner who had to suffer in the heat. Homer, realizing the situation, determined that he was going to change this.

The next summer, the day after Mr. Shoemaker had left town on his vacation, Homer Gill arranged to have air conditioning installed in the office, and, of course, Homer Gill had a wonderful, nice, cool office for the summer. But when Mr. Shoemaker returned, when he walked in, he immediately opened the front door, propped it opened, so that in a traditional fashion there could be lots of air. He walked into his room, put his feet up and started looking around and surveying the situation and realized, hey, what is that? Of course, it was the air conditioner. Does it work?

His secretary said, sure, it works if you close that door. You can also then put away your fly- swatter. Of course he did, and after that they had nice air-conditioned office quarters. Mr. Shoemaker became an MLA in the Gladstone-Neepawa area for the Ste. Rose constituency and contributed for 11 years, from 1958 to 1969, to the service of people in Mani- toba in this Chamber. Mr.

Shoemaker covered quite a lot of ground in his various comments and speeches and questions here in the Legis- lature, and I would just point out a few of the areas that he was concerned with: From 1959, a concern about campsites, the Lynch's Point campsite; in 1963, concerns about roads and highways in the Neepawa area. A comment from 1967 in February to a speaker who was not being very clear, and Mr. Shoemaker said: I want to thank my honourable friend for the statement,

1500 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 1, 2003 and the only comment I have is that if it had been in Greek, why, someone probably could have understood it who understood Greek, but I am at a loss to know the implications of the statement, and certainly a lot of people in the province will still be at a loss to know exactly where the minister stands. He carried this wry sense of humour when he probed with Gil Molgat questions about the imposition by the Conservatives of that day under Premier Roblin of a sales tax.

When Gil Molgat was commenting on one hand and Nelson Shoemaker was commenting on another, it was noteworthy that the sales tax was brought through, apparently without a Law Amendments Committee. It went straight to the committee of the House, so that the many people who wanted to present were not able to do that. Mr.

Shoemaker brought forward a huge petition of people who had expected to speak at the Law Amendments Committee, and, of course, there was a little bit of frustration over this, and he raised this with some great measure of eloquence in the House, the frustration at the well of people who wanted to presented their concerns over this important measure at the Law Amendments Committee.

I think that the interesting things that he raised ranged from the parking meters, inter- estingly, on Broadway and the fact that one day he had come in and found every parking meter in violation, because it had been the practice not to ticket people parking near the Legislature on Broadway at that point. So he was trying to get a coherent policy where they would either remove the parking meters or start ticketing them, but not leaving them there as if they were functional. In March of '67, I have a record here of where Mr.

Shoemaker was talking about, again, some analysis of rural development and how the then-government of the day was putting 12 communities under the microscope. He came forward with the 12 reports and challenged for a bet of $1 the other members of the Legislature to see if any others had read all 12 reports. The only other taker was, in fact, a Liberal, but clearly, there were some reports which in that day might have been paid better attention to.

We still have problems, obviously, with rural eco- nomic development and something that we need to pay attention to, not only for the community of Neepawa and surroun ding communities, but for many other parts of rural Manitoba. Mr.

Shoemaker brought up problems of flooding in April of 1967, pointing out the problems that existed at that point because there was a lack of ability for the water to get out and the cemetery was flooded and it was going to be quite difficult for a period of time to have funerals in the community because of the flood. * (15:30) He spoke on tourism, the need for Mani- tobans to pay more attention to the opportunities to learn about their own province. He spoke about government waste.

On one occasion, the government had paid for 170 tons of hay for 74 horses, and here, well, you could have bought the horses for less than the government paid for the hay, pointing out that this government of that day, which had used the word "restraint" very frequently in their budget debates, could, in fact, have used restraint a little bit more themselves at times. There are many things that he commented on. I will close with one last thing. This is in 1968, in March, when the then-premier was noted and commented on to be one ready to make tough decisions when tough decisions were to be made.

At that point, there was not a full-time Minister of Agriculture. Nelson Shoe- maker said: My guess is that there is not a member in this House and there never was a member in this House since the first session was called back in 1870 that did not say it one time or another, that agriculture was the backbone of the economy of Manitoba. He asked then: Why, then, has the premier of the day not made a tough decision and appointed a full-time Minister of Agriculture?

Well, he was very concerned about rural communities and about farming, and, I think, not only about his own community, but about the welfare of communities all over Manitoba. There are many, many stories of his contri- butions. I will close with one from Eric Pettitt, who for 29 years shared a lawnmower with Mr. Shoemaker because they were neighbours. The

October 1, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1501 only problem, Mr. Deputy Speaker, was that they had fierce debates about who was going to pay for the gas. The problem was that they both wanted to pay for it. Anyhow, when Eric moved away to another part of Neepawa, Nelson Shoemaker insisted that he take the mower with him and, indeed, he did and used it for another 10 years after that. That is the kind of gentleman Mr. Nelson Shoemaker was. He would do a lot for his neighbour. He would do a lot for his community. He worked very hard fo r this province. Thank you. Mr.

Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I rise today to offer condolences on behalf of Nelson Shoemaker. I know that he represented the constituency of Neepawa-Gladstone, elected in 1958 and re-elected in 1959, '62 and '66. As has been mentioned by the First Minister and the leader of the Liberal Party, Mr. Shoe- maker was born in Grandview in 1911, received his schooling in a one-room school house, married Edith Ford, who was a teacher. They were blessed with two daughters, Penny and Erin.

Through their lives together with Edith and Nelson, they saw some five grandchildren and six great-grandchildren. I think, obviously, peo- ple looked up to Nelson as a leader. Clearly, as we have heard today, he was a true survivor in the sense that he got through the thirties, a very difficult time through Canada, throughout Mani- toba, through smaller communities. He survived by raising chickens and bees and trading in furs, honey and eggs, was an entrepreneur and por- trayed that spirit throughout his community and with his family. He obviously was a business leader.

He got into the insurance business, the real estate business and expanded into the travel industry, noted full well that he was involved in the Neepawa town council, and obviously had a tremendous impact. As most people in Mani- toba, any time the word "curling" is mentioned, it seems to get everybody's attention because it is a sport, I believe, that we dominate in not only Canada, but in the world, and anybody that is a participant in curling knows and understands that relationship. Mr. Speaker in the Chair It is my honour, Mr.

Speaker, to pay tribute to a hardworking Manitoban, a hardworking member of this Legislature, a hardworking mem- ber of the community who so very well rep- resented the constituents of Neepawa-Gladstone. I know that we have a current member on this side of the House that is a representative of that constituency now and I know wants to put a few words on record, but I, on behalf of the Pro- gressive Conservative caucus, would like to say to those in the gallery on behalf of Mr. Shoe- maker, that he had a tremendous impact on this Legislature, on this community and also on the province.

Our condolences to the family on our behalf. Mr. Glen Cummings (Ste. Rose): Mr. Speaker, I, too, rise to extend condolences on behalf of Heather and myself to Nelson Shoemaker's family. You will notice that I just about referred to him by his first name, and that is very much the way Nels was remembered in our community. The fact that Nelson Shoemaker was a Watkins dealer probably assisted him greatly when he moved into politics because there were so many people that he undoubtedly met during that time.

While I would not personally know of those years, I can remember my father many times talking about doing business with Nelson Shoe- maker. If I can be forgiv en a personal note, I think my family has probably done business with Nelson's insurance business from the time it began until this day. The fact is that Nelson Shoemaker was a representative of the com- munity. The first thing I think of when I remember Nelson Shoemaker is, first of all, in this House and in events associated with politics. I used to run into Larry Desjardins and Gildas Molgat , who always asked after Nelson and how he was doing.

I also remember that Nelson's house was right across the road from the high school where I went to school and actually spent the four years in high school in the same class as his daughter Erin.

1502 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 1, 2003 I suppose to some extent I cut my political teeth during the years when Nelson was the MLA. He came to our farm on occasion, par- ticularly around election time as a friend of my father's and seeking re-election. But one thing that I remember distinctly, the only other time I was ever in this building except after I got elected, was when Nelson who–I believe his seat at that time was somewhere near where the current Leader of the Liberal Party is.

In those days, the members were allowed to stand up and introduce the guests in the galleries themselves, and my high school class was, in fact, introduced by Nelson during those years. As you could guess, that would be quite an honour for us to see our member stand up in the Legislature and perhaps that is a route we should return to, when you consider it. Mr. Speaker, Nelson represented the area and represented it well. As has been mentioned in passing, I suppose, politics were sort of a blood sport around our area in the years that Nelson was elected the MLA.

Those were tough elections all the way around, as I recall, and I was somewhat of a passive observer, I would suppose, in those years, but because I knew Mr. Shoemaker somewhat personally, that, in fact, probably caused my interest in politics. I hope that this would bring a smile to everybody's lips. When I put my name forward to run in the area that he once represented, I could not quite get him to confirm that he might consider me in providing his support. But the fact is, that was the kind of man that Nelson was.

You could go into his office and you could do business, you could talk as a friend, or he might even dispense some well-meaning personal advice if he thought that was necessary. And that was part of what made him a popular MLA and what kept him elected, I am sure. * (15:40) Something else that I think, others have talked about his political years, but I think some- thing else that might reflect on the type of individual Nelson was. There was a junior rifle club that began in Neep awa probably about the time that he was first elected in the late fifties.

It is now the oldest club in the province or has maintained continuous operation till now. And Nelson, and people will be horror struck, I suppose, in today's society by what I am about to say, but Nelson put up for the top prize for marksman in that club, that he would present a .22 rifle, single-shot rifle, as the award for the top marksman. He carried on that award after he had retired. As he said to me, he was not going to turn over that responsibility to somebody that he did not trust. He said that tongue and cheek, I am sure, but not any person al reflection.

But, in fact, I remember very well and felt honoured that shortly after I was elected to represent the area, I got this call from Nelson and he said: It is about time somebody else did this; it is now your job, Cummings. In fact, that continues. That shows the dedication, I think, and the interest that Nelson kept in the community, and when he made up his mind to do something, he did not easily or willingly withdraw from that responsibility. I would simply add that during the years that he was representative for our area, politics was, those were more the days of two- party politics.

Of course, it was very much an achievement on his part, as others have said, to regain election in the years that he did, but I want to extend my condolences to his family and his friends who are here today. Mr. Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt this motion? Motion agreed to. Mr. Speaker: Would honourable members please rise and remain standing to indicate their support for the motion. A moment of silence was observed. Mr. Jacob Froese Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): I move, seconded by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Murray), THAT this House convey to the family of the late Jacob Froese, who served as a member of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba, its sin- cere sympathy in their bereavement and its appreciation of his devotion to duty in a useful life of active community and public service, and that Mr. Speaker be requested to forward a copy of this resolution to the family.

October 1, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1503 Motion presented. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, I would begin by offering my condolences to his wife, Mary, his seven daughters and his three sons and their families on the loss of Jacob Froese, a person who served in this Legislature from 1959 to 1973 and was, through many of those years, the only member of the Social Credit Party of Manitoba. This political career would span a number of different premiers: Premier Roblin, Premier Schreyer and Premier Weir, over the number of years that he served in this Legislature. Mr. Froese was known for his tenacious research.

He was considered to be by members who had served with him, including former Premier Schreyer, a person who was a one-person party, one-person research machine if you will, to generate the material, information and argu- ments he could make on behalf of his consti- tuents and also on behalf of the issues that were dear to him across the province of Manitoba. He had a reputation fo r tireless work.

It has been said, and I think it is worth repeating, because of this research and because of his integrity as an elected officer in this Legislature, he was considered by some, if not many, to be the conscience of this Legislature during the period of time he served. I noted it was recognized that he had a pretty capable talent for getting attention to his own cause. I understand he had placed a tent in the legislative areas to draw attention to the fact that, as one member, he did not have an office.

The then Tribune reporter, later the executive assist- ant to Izzy Asper, wrote the story up in the Winnipeg Tribune and was quoted as saying the story was covered quite extensively, as one could imagine, but Mr. Froese never stopped thanking the Lieutenant-Governor for that piece of journalism and the result, that he got an office, something that, of course, is not nec- essary in today's environment. Mr. Speaker, we know that Mr. Froese was involved in a number of organizations in Mani- toba.

It is very, very reflective of his values in his career that he was involved in the credit union movement in Manitoba, he was involved in his church and he was involved in education. I believe he served as a trustee for a number of years. I also believe he served as a representative of the Manitoba Teachers' Society as well. He served as vice-chairman of the Manitoba school trustee association for 15 years. He chaired his local school board for some 25 years. He was a member of the credit union movement in Manitoba, nationally and internationally from 1950 to 1973.

Political labels can sometimes be misleading in the sense of right, left, centre, et cetera. I know former Premier Schreyer always felt with his strong involvement in the community, his strong involvement in the credit union move- ment, his strong involvement in education, that he would be an appropriate member of, dare I say it, the government that Ed Schreyer was leading. So it is an interesting part of history that Ed Schreyer was so impressed with Mr.

Froese– he was extremely impressed with his talent and his commitment to his community–that he flat- tered him with trying to attract him to his party, not his way of thinking, but in terms of how they dovetailed. Mr.

Froese, Jacob, was a director of MCC Canada, the Eden Mental Health Centre, the Salem Personal Care Home, the Bethel Hospital board in Winkler, and was a director of Radio Southern Manitoba, which, I believe, even to this day, continues to have the capacity to have a broad set of people involved in a political debate and has a reputation of fostering debate and democracy in southern Manitoba, which I think could be a model for other media, dare I say that. * (15:50) He was president of the Winkler Cannery, founding director of Flax Growers of Western Canada, director of Palliser Wheat Growers Association and the U.S.

Durum Wheat. He served the Manitoba community and the people of this province extremely well. I know those of you who knew him directly will miss him. I had the opportunity to meet him, but not to know him. I do know, from my readings and my research, that he was a person who not only served this Chamber with integrity, but he also served this Chamber with knowledge because of the work he did and the preparation that went

1504 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 1, 2003 into everything he did in this Chamber on behalf of his constituents and on behalf of the people of anitoba. M I, therefore, today, would like to join with my colleagues in paying tribute to this dedicated Manitoban, to this hardworking individual and thank him for his service to this Legislature and his service to his church, his family and to the people of Manitoba. Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, I would like to join the First Minister and, on behalf of the Pro- gressive Conservative caucus, pay tribute to a very special man, that being Mr. Jacob Froese. I was quite taken, out of the background, when you realize what an incredible individual this is. What struck me is that anybody who will take the position, as it was clearly in his case–it says at 18, he received the assurance of salva- tion.

That, obviously, was something that was very near and dear to his heart and something that was inspirational to those who were around him, because how else could you possibly be a single member, as he was from the years being elected in 1959, re-elected in '62, '66, '69 and '73, as an individual, caring not only for his community, but, obviously, with his background, one that was involved in all sorts of activities? They are very, very numerous. The First Minister ha s listed whether it was a business, whether it was education, or whether it was the church. Mr. Froese was always somebody that took leadership.

I thought it was interesting that it said his motto was: "To serve and to be of service." It goes on to say he did that without expect- ing anything in return. Clearly, the leadership he demonstrated, and I think the fact that we have in the gallery so many people who were touched directly by him and understood his leadership and his dedication to humanity, to all the things he believed, I think, speaks volumes of the fact that, again, as an individual, he was so suc- cessful in his community because of the respect he earned by being a leader through his time here on earth.

I know we are very fortunate to have on this side of the House a member from Emerson, a member from Pembina, who, I know, will be more personal in their comments as I was not blessed to know Mr. Froese directly, but I can tell, again, on behalf of the people who are here to pay respect to a very, very special individual who put his faith, who put his ability to lead and put his ability to always serve the people of Manitoba that this was truly a very, very special human being. So I say to the friends and family it is with great respect that I rise to pay tribute to a very special man in the Legislature today.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise today to put a few words on the record and to add my condolences to the family on the life of Mr. Jacob M. Froese, long-time Social Credit MLA for the constituency of Rhineland. To me and, I think, to most of the members of that community, he was known as J. M. Froese. I never did know who Jacob was until later on in life. Jacob Froese was born November 28, 1917, and at the age of 18, had a life-changing spiritual encounter and began to practise the Christian faith.

This was an important part of his life, apparent in his willing-servant attitude, reli- ability and dedication. In 1935, Mr. Froese attended the Mennonite Brethren Bible School in Winkler for a year, and he was a lifelong member of the Old Colony Church. Mr. Froese had many connections to the community. Throughout his life, he served as the director of many organizations and institutions, including the Bethel Hospital Board in Winkler, Radio Southern Manitoba, Salem Personal Care Home, Eden Mental Health Centre and Men- nonite Central Committee Canada.

He was heavily involved in the Credit Union league at the provincial, national and international levels, and in the 1950s, Mr. Froese played an integral role in revitalizing the Winkler Credit Union after it encountered a seri es of difficulties. He was also the organizer and the chair of the property owners' association of the R.M. of Stanley. During the period of time that I was the president of the Winkler Credit Union, I remember Mr. Froese attending those meetings and asking a number of pertinent questions specific to the workings and the ongoing operations of the credit union. I could appreciate

October 1, 2003 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1505 the concern that he had through the experiences that he had encountered. These are but a few of Mr. Froese's many commitments. He was also passionate about education, taking on the task of vice-chair of the Manitoba Mennonite School Association, serv- ing for 25 years as chair of the local school board and 15 years as vice-chair of the Manitoba School Trustees' Association. Mr. Froese was a staunch advocate in this Chamber for teachers and students alike. He was instrumental in and wa s successful in securing improved pensions for public school teachers.

He also actively participated in the debate on school consolidation. He seriously questioned and spoke out against the formation of the unitary divisions, and I think that was a big part of the legacy that he will leave also within that community. During his time as public servant, he and his family, with the help of two hired men, continued to run the family farm near Reinfeld. His sons are here this afternoon who have continued in that. Although this was a busy time for Mr. Froese, his efforts both at home and for the public had a positive impact and reached many people.

As a small child, I remember, as my father and I were driving to town, how he would point out to me just northwest of Winkler that that was the field that belonged to the MLA. I can also, as a small child, visualize and remember the times when I saw Mr. Froese out there and I thought he was rather too dressed up for being out there and helping, I guess, his hired hands at that time with the equipment, but those are some of the recollections that I have. In addition to all of his other commitments, Mr. Froese also served the agricultural industry in a variety of capacities.

He was president of the Winkler Cannery, founding director of the Flax Growers of Western Canada, director of Palliser Wheat Growers Association, director and delegate to the Wheat Board and held active memberships in the U.S. International Wheat Growers Association and the U.S. Durum Growers. * (16:00) As in other aspects of his life, Mr. Froese was also quite the su ccessful politician. Although initially a member of the Young Liberals, by his middle years Mr. Froese became interested in and involved with the Social Credit movement.

He won his first seat in the Legislature in a by-election after the unfortunate passing of W. C. Miller in 1959. Mr. Froese served this Legislature as the only Social Credit MLA from 1959-1973, representing the constitu ency of Rhineland. Although he was the lone Social Credit member, he spoke passionately about issues of importance to him, such as education. For example, he had a great deal of interest in private schools. During his time in this Legisl ature, he successfully introduced a private school bill which would give provincial grants to private schools.

As the Premier already indicated, my recollection also was of the time where he was not given an office in this Legislature. Of course, this was the story back home of how our member of the Legislative Assembly had pitched a tent and then consequently did receive one. Those are some of the stories that I remember as a younger person. Under the tenure of four premiers, Doug Campbell, Duff Roblin, Walter Weir and Edward Schreyer, Mr. Froese saw a great deal of change in this province and gained a wealth of knowledge and experience during his time in ffice. o Mr.

Froese spent much time working in the Rhineland area and thoroughly enjoyed helping his constituents. It was also Mr. Froese who suc- cessfully campaigned to have Manitoba licence plates read "Friendly Manitoba." I was also not aware of that. Apparently, this was a part of his undertaking. For his many involvements with community, his unshakable principles and tireless efforts to better his constituency, Mr. Froese was named Honourary Citizen of both Winkler and Win- nipeg. Mr. Froese was known to many as a true gentleman, and his colleagues remember him as

1506 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 1, 2003 the conscience of the Legislature, a title few can live up to. He was a man of faith and principle, a reputation that afforded him the opportunity to say grace at the dinner attended by Queen Elizabeth. Having lived with diabetes and suffering from a cardiovascular condition, Mr. Froese passed away in his home at the age of 85, on June 14. Mr. Froese was not only a politician who served his constituency and the general public with conviction, but was a wonderful and dedi- cated husband and father.

As we can see, his personal and political model, to serve and be of service, was most evident throughout his life. Just one other thing that I would like to add to this. I had the opportunity to attend the memorial service for Mr. Froese, but I was also told, and they mentioned it there, that when he would go on his visits out of country or possibly out of province, that he would come back with gifts for all his children. He had seven daughters and three sons. I am also told that he would buy the girls dresses, and these were matching dresses, so I would not want to undertake that.

On behalf of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba, I would like to pass on our deepest sympathies to Mrs. Mary Froese, the Froese children and all of the

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	38-1-16
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	38th 1st hansardpdf 16.pdf
Language	en
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