VOL. 2 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 10:00 a.m. - 1:00 p.m. FRIDAY, DECEMBER 2, 1983 NO. 70

December 2, 1983 Tape No. 3616 SD - 1 The House met at 10:00 A.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! ORAL QUESTIONS MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have to ask my usual question. Is the Emperor going to be in his seat today, can the han. gentleman tell the House 1 or do ~'le have to direct our questions to the junior members of the Cabinet? No response. Dummies. Mr. Speaker, in that case I will direct my question to the Minister of Hanpower and Industrial Relations (Mr. Dinn).

I have here in front of me the unemployment figures right hot off the wire from Statistics Canada which shows that the labour force - MR. ANDREWS: The Canadian unemployment figures 1 are they not? MR. NEARY: No, I am talking about Newfoundland and Labrador, Canada, the world. Now, Mr. Speaker, the figures show that the labour force for November dropped by 11,000 people, went down from 225,000 down to 2~_4_, 000. The number of people employed dropped by 13,000, went from 185,000 down to 172,000. And the unemployed rate increased by 2.3 per cent. The unemployment rate in this Province is now 19.7 per cent.

The official figures say that 42,000 people are unemployed. If you add the 11,000 drop in the labour force, you are talking about close to 60,000 Newfoundlanders and Labradorians who are currently unemployed, hopeless-ly walking the streets looking for jobs that are not available. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! 7926

December 2, 1983 Tape No . 3616 SD - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : I think the Chair has allowed a pretty fair

preamble starting off th,e Question Period and I would request the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) ta ·direct his question. MR. NEARY: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Manpower (Mr. Dinnl what plans the administration have to deal with record unemployment, the highest unemployment in our whole history? MR. SPEAKER: and Manpower. MR. DINN: The ho n. Minister of Labour Mr. Speaker, first of all 1 for the benefit of the hon. Leader of the Opposition,the 19.7 per cent unemployment rate is . not tl:le highest in history. We have had worst times.

The 172,000 who are employed is not the wors ·t thing that has happened to the Province of New£oundland. What has the government 7927

.. December 2, 1983 Tape No. 3617 NM - 1 MR. DINN: done or what is the government doing? It is very difficult to deal with a 19.7 unemployment rate. But the government has, through the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) as an example, through his plants programme and guaranteed loans to companies, provided 6,000 to 8,000 jobs. The Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey) ,with the $6 million that we provided in the budget and an additional $3 million, which is $9 million, has provided something like 5,100 jobs.

The Department of Labour and Manpower, through the NEED Programme, which was federal/provincially funded, we signed the best,despite what the hon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) likes to put· out in the public that we can~ot sign agreements, we signed the 'best NEED agreement in Canada this year between the federal government and any other province; we got $30 million from the federal government­ or $27 million and we put $3 million with it, and with that funding we provided 5,000 jobs. The Cat Arm Development peaked out this year with 800 jobs.

Offshore, contrary to what the hon. the Leader of the Opposition likes to put out and despite the fact that he is against our local preference policy in the offshore, that peaked out this year at 2,500 jobs. He was in power,for some ten years 1 disbursin~ building supply funds over on Bell Island opposite to what the regulations said- We, Mr. Speaker, did something about the offshore. When he was in, and if somebody in the Opposition,when they did not have a Question Perio~ had been able to get up and ask him what he was doing about jobs he 7928

December 2, 1983 Tape No . 3617 NM - 2 MR. DINN : would say he was creating a few over on Bell Island for building supplies - MR. NEARY: That is right . Hear, hear! MR. DINN: - but no jobs offshore. we cu .rrently peaked out this year at 2, 500 offshore, Mr. Spe ·aker, and just to continue on,the Minister of Culture , Recreation and Youth (Mr. Simms), who just walked into the House of Assembly, created 200 jobs this year. The 7929

December 2,1983 Tape No. 3618 ah-1 MR.DINN: Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) 1with an expanded highway's programme,created 4000 jobs this year. Mr. Speaker ·, I could go on but I do not want to take up the whole Question Period as to what the government is doing. Sm1E HON. MEHBERS : MR.DINN: on, Mr. Speaker. By leave. By leave.

Well,I will continue I have not got the stats in from the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs Newhook) 1 who created more jobs this year, but just from what I have gotten,I have checked some of the resource departments, and just from what I have gotten the governrnent,with federal/provincial funds,and with mostly provincial funds in the other resource departrnents 1created something like 25,000 jobs this year and we want to continue on with that programme so that we do not have a 25 per cent unemployment rate. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon.

Leader of the Opposition. MR.NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the spokesman in the administration for the Telephone Company just got up and babbled like the baboonthat he is, Mr. Speaker, and side-stepped my question as to what plans the administration have , what policies they have in order to help the highest number of unemployed in our whole history in this Province, what they intend to do about it.

Now could the hon. gentleman tell the House what extraordinary measures , what specific plans the administration have to help those people who are unemployed,especially young people who are unemployed, who are properly trained and cannot find jobs,who should be working at the most crucial 7930

December 2,1983 Tape No. 3618 ah -2 MR. NEARY : time in their 1 i ves , Mr . Speaker, embarking upon their careers? Could the hon. gentleman tell us what extraordinary measures , what specific measures ? Never mind babbling about the few hundred jobs that would have been there anyway , that any administration worth its salt would have created , most of them financed by the Government of canada. MR. MARSHALL : Mr • Speaker . MR.SPEAKER (Russell) Order , please ! The hon . President of the Council on a point of order. MR .MARSHALL : Mr .

Speaker 1 the hon . ge ntleman is making a speech and this is Question Period . MR.SPEAKER: The point of order is well taken . The hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr.Neary) was giving a speech and indeed he should have been directing a very precise and ver y specific question . MR. NEARY: Well , Mr . Speaker, I have asked a specific question . 7931

December 2, 1983 Tape 3619 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: Would the minister also tell the House what the administration plan to do to help large numbers of construction workers, fish plant workers and fishermen who, for the first time since Confederation, do not have enough stamps to qualify for ~nemployment insurance benefits this coming Winter? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. DINN: Mr.

Speaker, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition .asked me to be specific with respect to what government is going to do about unemploy­ ment in Newfoundland and I tried to be very specific the last time I stood up in this House. I told him that the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan), through his department, provided something like 6,000 to 8,000 jobs because he provided loan guarantees to fish plants. That is relatively specific. The Minister of Social Services (Mr.

Hickey), with a special programme this year, provided 2,600 jobs with the $6 million that was provided in the budget, and we just approved another $3 million which will provide 1,800 jobs for a total of 4,400 jobs. That is relatively specific. Through a NEED programme with the federal government,where $27 million was provided by the federal government and $3 million was provided by the provincial government, we provided 5,100 jobs, and it was the best NEED agreement signed in Canada this year. We have an energy development out in Cat Arm that provided this year 800 jobs.

We have a local preference policy for the offshore which this year peaked out 2,500 jobs. These are specific things. 7932

December 2, 1983 Tape 3619 EC - 2 MR. DINN : The hon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr . Neary) asked what speci fi cally are we going to do, for example, for the unemployed fishermen in Newfoundland who do not qualify for unemployment insurance. The federal government has a programme in place that should take care of that problem, in that $9 million is provided, which should look after approxi­ mately 2,500 job s or will bring the people in the fishing industry \o/hO do not have enough stamps up to the require­ ment so they will get UIC th.is Winter .

The extra part of the highways programme this year, I have not checked with my colleague, the Minister of l-1unicipa1 Affairs (Mrs . Newhook) , but the highways programme this year provided 4,000 jobs, that is in construction. we had the biggest construction year ever in government this year, the 7933

December 2, 1983 Tape No. 3620 MJ - 1 MR. DINN: biggest construction year ever which 1 provided many construction jobs, We have hospitals being built, we have the addition to the Confederation Building being built, all of these things are relatively specific. Despite what the hon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) said here in the House last year when we were struggling to keep Baie Verte and to do something about Baie Verte, we now have 310 people working in Baie Verte when he said it was impossible, it would never happen. We have 310 people working in Baie Verte,which we are proud of.

The Flintkote operation has increased in size this year; we have ninety working at Flintkote instead of seventy last year, Trinity Brick, because the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Young) is so interested in attempting to keep Newfoundland industry alive, in the specifications for the Confederation Building Complex, the addition to Confederation Building, we will keep that going fairly well with thirty-one people employed out there. MR. SI~ffi: Basques. M.._~. TOBIN: the Burin Peninsula. MR.

DINN: The hospital at Port aux The hospital at Clarenville and I could go on for the rest of the Question Period with specific things that the government has done this year . and will continue to do to attempt to alleviate the high unemployment situation in the Province. MR. SIMMS: ~m. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Opposition. MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! Good answer. Mr. Speaker. The hon. the Leader of the Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman indicated that some of these programmes he mentioned are being 7934

December 2, 1983 Tape No . 3620 MJ - 2 MR. NEARY: funded by the Government of Canada 1and let me say in response to that that if it were not for the Government of Canada people would be starving in this Pro vince toda y . Now, Mr. Speaker, let me come back again. I did not ask the hon .-gentleman to rehash the few paltry jobs - MR. DINN: Twenty-five thousand jobs. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, it is doubtful if many of them are there now at this moment. And the Social Services one is merely to get people off social assistance onto the unemployment roll to save the Province a few dollars, Mr . Speaker.

That is the purpose behind that plan. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, ohl MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR . NEARY: hon . gentleman again. Order, please! Now , let me come back to the Could the hon. gentleman tell the House now, Mr. Speaker, never mind rehashing and babbling about these handful of jobs that would have been there anyway no matter what government was in power, what does the administration plan to do? What plans do they have?

Let the han. gentleman articulate the plans, tell the House, tell the people, tell the young people of this Province what plans the administration have to deal with this horrendous unemployment problem we have in this Province, not what happened yesterday 7935

December 2, 1983 Tape 3621 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: or the day before yesterday or last week, what will happen in the days and weeks ahead to help these people find jobs? What can we look forward to in the way of new business and industry? What can we look forward to in the way of job creation projects~ Never mind about babbling about what happened yesterday and the day before yesterday. Give us the plans or, Mr. Speaker, let them admit that they do not have any plans to deal with this problem. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): and Manpower. MR. DINN: The han. Minister of Labour Mr. Speaker, the han. Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary) obviously cannot hear, he has another deficiency,and possibly Mr. Speaker could provide him with a hearing aid so as he could plug ip. What are we specifically doing now? As I said to the hon. member,who cannot hear; the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey) was provided in the Budget with $6 million with which he provided 2,600 jobs. MR. NEARY: unemployment problem. That will not solve the MR. DINN: It will not solve the unemployment problem. Now the hon. Leader of the Opposition - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKE.R: Order, please! MR. DINN: - he cannot take it. He cannot listen.

Fe wants to break the rules of the House. MR. NEARY: All you are talking about is tie federal =le. ·MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I have to remind han. members that when a member is speaking he does have the right to be heard in silence. I 'MJuld csk all han. members to obey that rule. 7936

December 2, 1983 Tape 3621 PK - 2 MR. NrnRY: And that applies to roth sides of the House. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): I said all bon. members. MR. DINN: So , Mr. Speaker, he asked me to be specific and when I am specific, then he interrupts. I MR. NEARY: What are your plans? MR. DINN: Now he is breaking the rules again. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. DINN: Now he is there sitting in his seat- MR. ME-..RSHALL: Mr. Speaker, on a point. of order. MR. SPEUER: Order, please! The bon. President of the Council on a point of order. MR.

MARSHAL .L: Your Honour gave his ruling a moment ago and the bon. gentleman persists in flaunting Your Honour's ruling. When Your Honour gave the ruling the han. gentleman said quite distinctly,'It applies to both side~'or words to that effect, with the obvious innuendo with respect to Your Honour's partialty. After Your Honour gave the ruling, Mr. Speaker, the han. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) persisted, there was hardly a second transpired from the time Your Honour sat down when he was shouting across the House again.

Now this House does not belong to the Leader of the Opposition, it has traditions - MR. NEARY: It does not apply to you either. SO~lli HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. MARSHALL: - much older than all of us, Mr. Speaker. And there is an obvious remedy to deal with the han. member that 1 I would suggest,will have to be brought into play. 7937

December 2, 1983 Tape 3621 PK - 3 MR. NEARY: of order . Mr . Speaker, to that point MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please ! The hon . Leader of the Opposition to that point of order. MR . NEARY : Mr .. Speaker , there is the big bully now , 7938

December 2, 1983 Tape No.3622 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, there is the big bully now. Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is that the tradition in this House is there is banter back and forth and 1 despite what the han. bully boy says,the han. gentleman who looks down his nose at anybody else who is not in his social class, Mr. Speaker, the St. John's mucky-mucks who think they own this House of Assembly, who turn down their nose at the outport people - MR. SPEAKER (Russell) .: Order, please! The han. Leader of the Opposition was recognized to speak to a point of order 1 which he certainly is not doing .

I indica ted earlier that wh .en an han. member is speaking he does have the right to be heard in silence and all . hon. members s·hould adhere to that. If hon. members persist interrupting anybody when they are speaking,then the Chair will have no other alternative than to name them. l.ffi. NEARY : MR. SPEAKER: Leader of the Oppos ·i tion. MR. NEARY: A point of order, Mr . Speaker. A point of order, the han. Mr. Speaker, the han. gentleman indicated in his remarks that aspersions and reflections were being cast on the Chair.

I think what I said was that the rules apply to both sides of the House and Your Honour agreed. So, Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman should get up and withdraw th .ese remarks and apologize to th.e H:ouse because all he is doing with . these points of order is trying to use up the time of the Question Period. MR. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER; President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. To that point of order, th.e hon. Hr.

Speaker, from the way th .e han. gentleman performs in Question Period,it is he who is trying to caus ·e the time to elapse because he has · very little of substance to ask in the House. Now the position is when any membe .r of; this House on any s:ide ma .kes a statement that 7939

December 2, 1983 Tape No. 3622 so - 2 MR. MARSHALL: the han. gentleman indicated that he made 1 and everyone heard him make 1 that the rules apply to both sides, it can be construed as nothing other than an asperation on the authority of Your Honour and this House. And any member who makes that should be called upon immediately to withdraw it. Now instead of the han. gentleman having the good grace to withdraw it, he gets up and tries to press it even further in his point of orders, It is despicable MR. SPEAKER (Russell): To that point of order, the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary) did not raise a valid point of order. MR. NEARY: The han. Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, my question to the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn) is this: one of the programmes he keeps harping on is the Social Services make work programme. Now would the han. gentleman indicate how that helps solve the unemployment problem? Is it not true that all that does is transfer people on social assistance to the unemployment insurance roll? Is it not correct that it transfers people from the provincial payroll to the federal payroll? Now could the 7940

December 2, 1983 Tape No. 3623 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: han. gentleman explained to the House how that creates additional jobsr MR. SPEAKER (Dinn) : The hon. Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. DINN: I am sure the hon. member would want to have total accuracy in an answer provided by me 1 so for that part of the question I will defer that ·. to my colleague, the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey) 1 who undoubtedly will answer that, But before I get to that, I did not quite get to f~sh my reply to the question which was asked by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary) last ·time· As~ Your Honour will recall 1 there were interruptions from the hon. member. I was attempting to answer the question, he was breaking the rules of the House, and a point of order intervened and I did not get to answer the question. But I would like to say that we are not proud of a 19 per cent unemployment rate in this Province, I do not think any government could be proud of itl but we are attempting to deal with it.

As I said, just to repeat some of the things that I have said, just to make it clear what has happened, is that through loan guarantees to fish companies we did provide 8,000 jobs. We have a restructured fishery now. Some parts of it the hon. the Leader of the Opposition does not agree with. We, for example, tried to get foreign ships to supply the resource-short plants so that we could provide some employment there and that was opposed by the Opposition and I think that was an unwise move.

We did have a NEED programme this year that created, as I said, something like 51,000 jobs and those are continuing, tb.at is not past. These are not jobs that started last year and are finished. They will continue up to something like June or July of 1984. 7941

December 2, 1983 Tape No . 3623 NM- 2 MR. DINN: As I said, the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey) through his department, with $9 mi _llion to ~t~:t out, we put $6 million in it and the programme was so successful that I believe we added another $3 million this year,and that is i.mrnediate, that is now. We do have a proposal, as a matter of fact my colleague, the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth (Mr. Simms) and I, to the federal government his year for a job Sharing programme with the federal government for youth unemployment.

We were not successful in getting anything there , as a matter o.f fact we did not get the courtesy of a reply, but I will be discussing that, youth employment, among other things with the Federal Minister of Employment and Immigration (Mr. Axworthy) in January. We ha'.l our deputy ministers meet this week,as a matter of fact, Monday and Tuesday, and I will be meeting with the minister in January to see if we can put something together for the next year. ·As I said, just about 7942

December 2, 1983 Tape 3624 EC - 1 MR. DINN: everything government can do -we have, of course, our programmes in Municipal Affairs and Housing and Transportation - just ~bout everything government can do. The Minister of Public Works (Mr. Young) specifically said, just to keep the Trinity brick thing going a little bit longer - MR. NEARY: The rules apply 'to both sides, do they not, Mr. Speaker? The answers to questions should be brief. MR. DINN: The hon. member asked me to be specific, Mr. Speaker, and to be specific I have to go through t~e programme. MR.

DAWE: If he has a point of order, he should stand up and state it. MR. DINN: As my colleague says, if he has a point of order, he should stand up on that point of order. But I defer the part of the question that relates to the Department of Social Services to my colleague, the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey) so that he can provide specific details to the hon. member with respect to the programme I talked about earlier, the $9 million. SOME HON. .MEMBERS : MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAXER: Opposition. MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker. The hen. the Leader of the _Mr.

Speaker, the hon. gentleman again is talking about federal programmes to create jobs, the $175 million for restructuring,and the only thing I can say to that, my only comment, is thank God for the Government of Canada coming to the rescue of the fishery that they 7943

December 2, 1983 MR. NEARY: MR. SIMHS: MR. NEARY: Tape 3624 EC - 2 brought to the brink of ruin. Get down on your knees. Yes, we should thank God. for Confederation and for the Government of Canada. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. NEARY: Order, please! Order, please! Now, Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman keeps harping on this Social Assistance programme that, as he is aware - MR. DINN: You want tne answer but you would not let the minister speak. MR. NEARY: No, Mr. Speaker, I am not going to ask one question and then have the two ministers passing the ball to one another tc get up and answer. MR.

WARREN: He does not know the answer, that is why. MR. NEARY: No, the hon. gentleman does not know the answer, that is true. Would the hon. gentleman tell the House why young,able-bodied men and women, boys and girls who cannot qualify for welfare, who have been cut off from welfare by the Minister of Social Services, cannot qualify for these jobs under the Social Assistance make-work programmes, Mr. Speaker? Why can they not? Can the hon. the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn) give us the answer to that? MR. WARREN: The Minister of Labour and Manpower, right. MR. SPEAKER: Social Services. MR. NEARY: MR.

HICKEY: The hon. the Minister of Oh! Pass the ball around! Mr. Speaker, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary), since he has been in this House - and he is the senior member of the House - has used one tactic over the years 1and he continues to, 7944

December 2, 1983 Tape 3624 EC - 3 MR. HICKEY: and it is contemptible! He wil l talk about another ministry, d~rect his questions to another minister who is not responsible - MR. NEARY: order . - MR . SPEAKER (Russell) : Mr . Speaker, on a po~t of Order, please! Order, please! The hon . the Leader of the Opposition on a point of order. MR. NEARY : Mr . Speaker , when I a sked Your Honour if the rules apply to both sides of the House, Your Honour said yes . I directed a question to the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn) and he referred it to the Ministe .r of Social Services (Mr . Hickey) • I would not mind if the Minister of Social Services were answering the que stion , 7945

December 2,1983 Tape No. 3625 MR.NEARY: but what he is doing is heaping abuse on me, Mr. Speaker. The hon. gentleman is questioning my motives. Perhaps the hon. gentleman did not hear the question that I put to the Minister ah-1 of Manpower (Mr.Dinn). I would submit that the minister is completely out of order and if the rules apply to both sides of the House, Mr.Speaker, then I ask Your Honour to enforce these rules. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. MR.SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. President of the Council to that point of order.

MR.MARSHALL The hon. gentleman is obviously getting tired and it is indeed time for the hon. gentleman to take flight to the Senate when the time comes •. Mr. Speaker, if the hon. gentleman is asking for information,he will get information from the government. If he asked the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr.Dinn) for an answer to a matter that is not within his jurisdiction, and it is in the Minister of Social Services• (Mr.Hickey) and he responds,what is the hon. gentleman interested in? Is he interested in information or is he interested in trying to turn the House of Assembly into a circus?

MR.NEARY: No, a beer garden like you are turning it into over ther. MR.MARSHALL: Now the hon. gentleman has once again, and I draw it to Your Honour's attention, has once again used the words 'do the rules apply to both sides of the House?' and I can only say to Your Honour that has a connotation that calls into question the impartiality of Yo.ur Honour. SOME HON . :!-'!Er·1BERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! 7946

December 2,1983 Tape No. 3625 ah-2 MR. MARSHALL: Now Your Honour's impartiality in this chamber is not just a matter for Your Honour, it is a matter for all members of this House to protect. This Assembly, Mr. Speaker, is the Assembly of the people of the Province of Newfoundland,and every single member in it is charged with the protection of the traditions of the Assembly. Now the hon. gentleman has made that accusation to Your Honour and I would suggest that the hon. gentleman should be asked to withdraw it. smm HON .MEMBER: MR.NEARY: MR.SPEAKER (RUssell): Opposition. MR. NEARY: Hear, hear: Mr.. Speaker.

The hon. Leader of the We have just seen another classic example of the class distinction in this House of how the hon. minister tries to bully the Chair, how to browbeat the Chair. That is the purpose of that exerc.ise, Mr. Speaker. I in no way cast any aspersions. Not only that,it is also intended to distract from the issue that we are asking ques.tions about, the record unemployment in this Province. 7947

December 2, 1983 Tape No. 3626 SD - l MR. NEARY: That is the purpose of the exercise, to browbeat and bully the Chair. Y..Je know how to appeal Your Honour's rulings if we so desire, we did it already once this s·ession. And we follow the rules of this House, Mr. Speaker. That is more than you can say about that si.de. And all we are asking- and Your Honour told me earlier, nodded to me and said yes - is that the same rules apply to that side as apply to this side. And we have no doubt but they do. But we are asking to have the rules enforced as far as the answers to questions are concerned. MR. HISCOCK: MR.

SPEAKER [Russell) : hon. member for Eagle River. r-iR. HISCOCK: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. To that point of order, the Mr. Speaker, we have seen time and time again in this House that the Opposition here respects the Chair and parliamentary procedure. But we have seen, time and time again 1 the Presiden~ of the Council (Mr. Marshall) to get up on points of order and putting the Speaker in a position of having to defend himself.

And I think that is w~ere ~he abuse ~omes from, the President of the Council .?tandi~g periodically, four or five times throuqhout Question Period 1which is supposed to be the time for this side of the House, but we find the President of the Council gets up and puts the Speaker in an embarrassing position to have to defend himself. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, which was originally raised by the Leader of the Opposition (.!1r. Neary-)., he had directed a question to the hon. Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr.

Dinnl and perhaps the question rightfully should have been directed to the Minister of Social Services (.Mr. Hickey)_. However 1the Chair did recognize the Minister of Social Services and shall recognize him in answering the question. The hon. Minister of Social Services. 7948

December 2, 1983 Tape No. 3626 SD - 2 MR . HICKEY: Thank you very much, ~tr. Speaker . All r can say is what an abysmal state of an Opposition and we will just leave it at that! ~tr . Speaker, the bon . gentleman is obviously not interested in gettin g f acts from my depart ment or he would ~ave very appropriately and very simply put the question. But let me give him some anyway, Mr. Speaker. He makes the unfounded charge that we take people off social assistance and transfer them to a federal pa yroll . I want to deny that categorically . We do not do that, Mr. Speaker . The unemployment insurance programme is but a part of the community development programme of my department. 7949

December 2, 1983 Tape No. 3627 MJ - 1 MR. HICKEY: If the hon. gentleman finds it so awful that through the process of rehabilitating people and helping them back into the labour market we use the unemployment insurance _t:>rogramme, let r.1e ans~-1er by putting a few questions to him. Does he not favour equal rights for people who are on social assistance,the opportunity to in fact draw from the unemployment insurance programme? Is that not a profound right of a social assistance recipientithe same as it is for any other citizen, point number one, Mr. Speaker.

Point number two, is he not aware and does he not support the direct initiative by the federal government to create jobs simply to provide three, four, five or six stamps or contributions to enable people to go on that very programme he is decrying that we are using? Is he not aware of that? And, Mr. Speaker, finally let me give the hon. gentleman a few figures that he might consider.

As opposed to what he says, as opposed to how he plays down the importance and the success of this programme,over the last seven or eight years my department have removed from the social assistance payroll approximately 23,000 family heads and put them into employment:. Out of that, Mr. Speaker, because I got sick and tired of hearing the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) say we were just putting them on unemployment insurance, two years ago, Mr.

Speaker, I commenced a survey of those people whom we removed from the case load to find out where they had gone, what had happened to them and what had been their experience. And this year, Mr. Speaker, that survey is in its second phase,doing profiles on those people to see the success ratio of those people who were removed from the case load. I can tell the hon. gentleman, out of random sample of 6,000 all over the Province 1 that were surveyed,78 per cent, Mr. Speaker, were not on social assistance, 22 per cent were but 7950

December 2, 1983 Tape 3628 PK - 1 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. HICKEY: -78 per cent, Mr . Speaker, has found their way into employment. MR. NEARY: On a point of order , Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (.R ussell ) : on a point of order. MR. NEARY: Order, please! The hon. Leader of the Opposition Mr. Speaker, while we appreciate the hon. gentleman in his ivory tower, in his dream world, the hon. gentleman .who will not give funding to the Senior Citizens Committee in Gander to expand the home to cre~~e employment- MR. SI~1S: This ~ s not a point of order. MR.

NEARY: - while we appreciate his r~ings . and his babbling, Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman is not following the rules of th.e House. One of the rules of th is House is that during the Question Period the answers have to be brief. Now, Mr. Speaker, all we are doing is asking Your Honour to direct the hon. gentleman 1who is babbling 1to answer the question and be as brief as he can in his answer. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! To that point of order, it is basically correct that for the ~se of the Question Period questions and answers should be as brief as possible.

However, on some occasions that may depend on the type of question asked. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Asking the question on policy or prograrnmes.maybe the answer is a little longer than perhaps it should be and we have to take a look at that. Anyway 1 the time for the Question Period has expired . 7951

December 2, 1983 Tape 3628 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: Well,the question I put he certainly was not answering it. PRESENTING REPORTS OF STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER(Russell) : The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, the Province of Newfoundland Pool Pension Fund Financial Statement for The Year Ending June 30, 1980; For The Year Ending December 31, 1981 and For The Year Ending Decemper 1, 1982. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PRESEN~ING PETITIONS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to present a petition on behalf of ninety­ one residents of the town of the Goulds, and I believe these residents reside in the provincial district of Ferryland. The ninety-one residents who signed this petition live along the road known in the area as the Shoal Bay Road. Now, Mr. Speaker, the pra¥er of the petition is that these people are protesting the fact that a sewer line currently being installed in the Upper Goulds will go directly through their property, go along by their front doors and their back do~r~, 7952

December 2, 1983 Tape No. 3629 MJ - 1 MR. NEARY: and they will not be able to hook into this sewer line, they will not be connected, Mr. Speaker, because of the type of sewer system that is being installed in the town of the Goulds. The town council of the Goulds,as the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs. Newhook) is aware, adopted a force fed sewer system for the town and rejected a method that the residents feel is far superior. A better method could have been adopted,called the lagoon system,and it would have been less costly to the provincial treasury .if they had put in the lagoon type system. Mr.

Speaker, if they had followed this strategy, then a sewerage line would have provided service to all residents of the Goulds. We are told that 20,000 families could have benefited by the lagoon system

whereas now,the petitioners tell us,that only 6,000 will benefit by the system that is currently being put in. I might say, Mr. Speaker, for the benefit of hon. members,that two of the gentlemen who circulated this petition and who are very concerned about this matter are seated in the public gallery today, Mr. Fred Squires and Mr. Paul Shortall. Mr. Shortall, as the hon . the member for Ferryland is aware, is a former member of the council . Now, Mr . Speaker, that '.is one problem.

Another problem with the Shoal Bay Road is that there was a commitment ori the part of the Department of Municipal Affairs to upgrade that road. Now that commitment somewhere has been lost, a commitment of $185,000 that has either been put on hold or the people in authority cannot explain what has happened to that $l8S,OOO. Another problem :in connection with the 1o1ater and sewer line, Mr. Speaker, is the fact that people whose -property. is being expropriated are only getting 7953

December 2, 1983 Tape No. 3629 MJ - 2 MR. NEARY: fifty cents per foot for their land,and land is being expropriated to the extent of lots 25 by 100 which,as Your Honour knows,is the equivalent of a building lot. Now, Mr. Speaker, although residents are complaining about the fifty cents per foot 1 they are not complaining about the expropriation if, Mr. Speaker, they were hooked ito the sewer line,and they cannot be hooked into it 1as I indicated 1because it is a forced fed sewer line that th~ Department of Municipal Affairs and the council decided to put in.

And there are 700 families, by the way,in the lower Goulds area who will not be serviced even though it is costing $3.8 million to put in that system, 700 householders will not be able to be hooked jn, If they did hook in in the lower Goulds, what would happen, ~rr. Speaker, under a forced fed system is that the sewerage would be forced into the houses of the people and come up in their kitchens and in their bedrooms everywhere. So it is .impossible to hook into it. Now the member for the area, the member for Ferryland (Mr. Power) did write a letter to the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs.

Kewhook) that I have in front of me raising all of these questions to the minister 1 I have not seen any reply, I do not know if the member has received a reply to his ·MR. POWER: I have. MR. NEARY: Well, if he has then the people have not been given the information yet. I trust the hon. the member for Ferryland will be passing the information along to his constituents. Fnd I do hope that the answers are satisfactory to the constituents 1 because the minister should really take a good hard look at this development, Mr. Speaker, to see if the consultants gave the right 7954

December 2, 1983 Tape No. 3630 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: advice. It should be thoroughly investigated and a remedy should be taken to rectify the-situati~n so that,for the amount of money that is· oeing s·pent, all residents of the Upper and Lower Goulds will be sure that they will be getting adequate water and sewer services. I am delighted to have the opportunity to present this petition, Mr. Speaker. I ask that it be laid on the table of the House and referred to the department to which it relates 1namely 1the Department of Municipal Affairs.

And I· look forward to any comments that the minister may have to make on this particular matter. MR. SPEAKER (_Russelli: The han. Minister of Municipal Affairs. MRS. NEWHOOK: Mr. Speaker, there has been an ongoing study with regard to the sewer outfall and the sewer system in the Goulds. It is completed now, of course, but it was a very intensive study and we have been consulting with the town council and with Delcan,which is the town's consultants.

And finally it has been agreed with the consultants and with the town council that the methods we are using now 1 that th .e route being taken with the sewer line, the sewer outfall, is the best and the only one that can be approved at this time. There are environmental concerns with regard to an area with the lagoon system and it is not feasiole for the town of the Goulds. So the town council has agreed to the present system being used, the present design. The~e has been contact with Delcan, the work is underway and our department, our engineers, are convinced that it is the best way to go.

With regard to the expropriation of land and the road paving, the road will ·be paved when the sewer line goes through. I am sure that the people of the 7955

December 2, 1983 Tape No. 3630 SD - 2 MRS. NEWHOOK: Goulds must realize that you cannot pave and widen the roads and upgrade them if they are going to tear it up again. So that will be done. And, Mr. Speaker, our department is quite satisfied with the studies and that the route being taken and the design that has been done are the best ones. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. member for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: Mr. Speaker, to that petition, I also support the petition. The Minister of Municipal Affairs (_Mrs.

Newhook) did not say when the people on the Shoal Bay Road, the Lower ~oulds, will be getting water and sewerage. We realize why tl"oey are not getting it_n?w: We also realize that with regard to once it is done, the force fed . --· '\ phase goes through now, we will end up getting a new paved road there, but they have expropriated land and still not said when the 700· families will get a sewer system. I would assume if they do get it in the future 1they will have to tear up the road again and end up having .to repave it again. It is something that this government does.

But with regard to the petition, I am sure the 700 residents are wondering when they are getting it and what a waste of money to expropriate land and then repave a road and then tear it up again at some other date. But with regard to that, Mr. Speaker, we find that this is not only prelevant to the Goulds; the same thing happened with Makkovik, the same thing happened with Rigolet and L '"Anse-au-Clair, L'Anse- au-Loup and many places in my district 1that only half the community is getting water and sewerage or one-quarter is getting water and sewerage,and the other

part 1 because it is on the side of a ~ri_dg~ c:n~ __ expenses involved, are not getting it. The problem that happens with the Department of Municipal Affairs is the consultants. The consultants have to be recommended by the department itself and I find sometimes if we go and 7956

December 2, 1983 Tape No. 3631 NM- l MR. HISCOCK: check the political party label we find that a lot of patronage is involved there. And I think we as taxpayers in the Province are paying a lot more for these water and sewerage systems than is really needed, and they are not for the benefit of the people but sometimes for the construction companies and for the consulting groups. So I support the petition, Mr. Speaker, but I have to say what a waste of money to expropriate land and end up having to pave it and at some later date find out that we are going to end up having to put water and sewerage in. MRS.

NEWHOOK: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs, a point of order. MRS. NEWHOOK: That is completely false what the member for Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock) is saying. We do not appoint the consultants. If they are working on the town system, they have done the work, they are familiar with it, then we just make recommendations to the council and the council approves the consultants. MR. HISCOCK: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: the hon. member for Eagle River. MR.

HISCOCK: To that point of order, We find out that with regard to the consultants that the Province has a list and they recommend to the council two or three 1 and it is up to the councils to pick out one out of those two or three. That is the rule. MR. SIMMS: MR. HISCOCK: 7957 That is not what you said. Probably still three Tory firms.

December 2, 1983 Tape No. 3631 NM - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! The point of order raised is a difference of opinion between two hon. members. ORDERS OF THE DAY: Motion, the hon. the Minister of Social Services to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Social Assistance Act, 1977", carried. (Bill No. 82) On motion, Bill No. 82 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

Motion, the hon. the Minister of Health to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Newfoundland Medical Care Insurance Act", carried. (Bill No. 92) On motion, Bill No. 92 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. Motion, the hon. the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Wilderness And Ecological Reserves Act (No. 2)", carried. (Bill No. 93) On motion Bill No. 93 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. SPEAKER: Motion 1.

The resolution introduced by the hon. the Premier 1 and the hon. the member for Torngat Mountains adjourned the debate yesterday. MR. WARREN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Yesterday when I was speaking in favour of this resolution, I did indicate, Mr. Speaker, at the time that the Premier made a 360 degree turn since November 24, 1981. And it is public record, Mr. Speaker, that the Premier in 1981, at the 7958

December 2, 1983 Tape No" 3631 NM - 3 MR. WARREN: time the Constitution was in the process of being brought horne to our country the Premier was content, at that time the Premier was contented to go ahead, having the 7959

December 2, 1983 Tape 3632 EC - 1 MR. WARREN: unanimous support of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians of retaining the word'existing•in Clause 34. And it was, Mr. Speaker. The the Premier cannot get any credit what­ soever for this resolution that he brought in yesterday. The credit for this resolution lies solely on the native people across Canada. The native people across Canada have stood up in force with the backing of the federal MP, Warren Allmand. Warren Allmand was one of the backers, one of the MPs,along with Peter Ittinuar, an Inuit who represents the Eastern Arctic.

He and Warren Allmand were the two federal MPs who were backing the native people across Canada in order to have the word 'existing' deleted or have something added to it. But the resolution that the Premier brought in yesterday did what the native people wanted done in 1981, it extended the word 'existing' to include any other ongoing talks between the native people and government. Now, the Premier said yesterday that so far the federal government have not been willing to look at the land claims of the native peoples. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is incorrect.

I would like to quote from a statement of the Labrador Inuit Association under the signature of Enoch Obed, who was the Land Claims Director for the Inuit Association: "The Supreme Court of Canada came very close to saying that the native people had traditional and aboriginal titles to their land in January, 1973. The government at that time got scared that if the Inuit and Indians ever went to court, it might get beaten and the native people would win their case. In order to forestall this possibility, the federal govern­ ment reversed its 1969 policy and on August/ 6, 1973, 7960

December 2, 1983 Tape 3632 EC - 2 MR . \'1ARREN: announced that it was prepared to settle land claims with natives without treaties if those people could show that they had traditional interest in their lands ." Now, that was on August 6, 1973, Mr. Speaker, some ten years ago. Now, Mr. Speaker, the Premier was the gentleman who said yesterday that the federal government was not concerned about land claims. It is this Province that is not concerned about land claims. This Province is concerned that what will happen is the native people in this Province will have some say about their destiny.

The Premier met with the native leader on November 23rd. I want to read for you, Mr. Speaker, what the native people said on November 24th: 7961

December 2, 1983 Tape 3633 PK - 1 MR. WARREN: 1 We met with Premier Peckford this morning where we were presented with a new version of

Section 34 that the Premiers across the country had agreed on last night.' Again I reiterate, Mr. Speaker,'The Native people were left out of these consultations and we were asked to support a document that we knew nothing about. 1 We hope that Premier Peckford will support the request of the Native peoples of this Province and have the word dropped) in other words, the word , 'existing' • And, Mr.

Speaker, if that was dropped then " at that time,November 24, 1281, the Native peoples of this Province would agree wholeheartedly with the constitution and the Premier would not have been required to come into the House yesterday with his tail between his legs and expect hopefully that everything would be forgiven. Mr. Speaker, in the remaining few minutes I have left, for the record let us look at what this government has shown in favour of the / Inuit people, Let us look at what they have shown in the past and see if there is any desire in this resolution to be better to the Native people. ) Mr.

Speaker, in September, 1978,the Premier,who at that time was the Minister of Rural Development,on September 18, 1978, at that time issued a directive to all the managers of government owned stores in Northern Labrador that the stores would be no longer carrying hardware, furniture or appliances. Now the Premier made that , as Minister of Rural Development at that time, in 1978, he made that decision without even consulting the Inuit people. Instead who did he consult? He consulted two individual business people who were living 7962 .;

December 2, 1983 Ta:pe 3633 PK - 2 MR. WARREN: in Nain, who wanted to carry those commodities. Instead of stocking them in the government store 1 he was receiving federal mon~y for the operation of government stores in the communities,this government just turned their backs on them and sta,rted taking things awa.y. 1 This· is another sorry episode,' :this is what the statement said by the Inuit Association in 1978, 'this is another sorry episode of government officials listening to and being·influenced by a couple of white businessmen and discarding the opinions of the true citizens of Labrador.' Mr.

Speaker, it asks as final questions, 'What about the people who live th.ere? What about the people that this agreement is meant for?' Now, Mr. Speaker, this res<?lution will1I hope-I do have a little confidence in the Premier-I hope that he will now have learned his -~, / lesson that-the Native people will no longer be trodden on. I am surprised also , ·Mr. Speaker, that the Premier said yesterday, he said,'We have done'extensive, detailed research and can find no evidence to support the aboriginal title by the people Of Conne River.1 That, Mr. Speaker, is 7963

December 2,1983 Tape No. 3634 ah-1 MR. WARREN: not correct, that is not ?orrect, they have not done an extensive search. They may have done research 1 but not an extensive research .Because if they had done extensive research 1 tney would have came up with some ideas supporting the Conne River indians. All the Premier has done was listen to some research from his flunkies, that was the research that he listened to. There is research that he will not ever listen to at all, Mr. Speaker, that was done by a Memorial University professor. He will not evern listen to that because he thinks it is no good.

But why does he not play all the evidence? Maybe the Conne River indians do not have a claim to any terriotory, maybe they do not,but I believe it is unfair for the Premier to come into this House and say they did extensive research which they have not done. The Pre~ier also said,'We are prepared :to sit down with the groups,• meaning . the Indian groups, •and recognize right from the start that they are different from the rest: of us on the Island.' Mr.Speaker, what a laugh! What a laugh!

It was only just last Winter, Mr.Speaker, when this government had it in its power, and the money was there available to assist the native people in recovering their skidoos and their caribou meat that was left in the country because of bad weather 1 but this government did not see fit to do it. This government could not stand on its two legs and support those people, instead we had to go to the Germans to help those Inuit and Indian people and help them to retrieve their caribou meat from the interior. Does this government care? No, Mr. Speaker, this government does not care. If it 7964

December 2,1983 Tape No. 3634 ah-2 MR.WARREN: cared it would have been in there the first day it was requested. And from that day, Mr. Speaker, this is one of the reasons why the Executive Assistant to the Minister of Rural Development (Mr. Goudie),Mr. White,was released of his duties, because Mr. White stood up for the principles of the Inuit people at that time. He requested that the department act and help those people to get their meat and their skidoos out of the country. And I wonder if this is one of the reasons why Mr. White is no longer employed with that department? Mr.

Speaker, in conclusion - MR.CALLAN: Are you going to read the letter? MR.WARREN: I will read another letter after. MR. SHIMS: Are you going to table it? MR.WARREN: I will table any letters, yes, my friend. Mr. Speaker, I want to quote a copy of a letter that I received in 1979 and it shows and I hope that this will sum up, Mr. Speaker, the frustrations of the native people of Labrador as it pertains to governments. I am not pointing particularly to the provincial government but to both governments. Mr.

Speaker, this letter was written by the late William Edrnunds,who was then the President of the Labrador Inuit Association. It is not necessary to repeat the '--, first paragraph, it is just congratulating me on my election and so _on. The second paragraph, 'I am sure you will agree with me when I say that the Torngat district is one of the most neglected financially not only in the Province but in the whole of Canada.I could add that there is also 7965

December 2, 1983 Tape No. 3635 MJ - 1 MR. WARREN: 'a special area in another sense as it contains in your Inuit population in the Province. This fact alone makes it completely different from all other districts. The Inuit peop ~ e are different, they have different dreams and hopes than does the average Canadian.

Theirs is not a world of pavements, highways, automobiles, offices and high-rises' - suc.'l as the Tiffany _ToNers.- 'but of water, ice and snow·, hunting, trapping I and fishing and a healthy environment.- which the minister is trying to destroy at Strange Lake, their healthy environment. •Government Services such as housing, social services, are geared to the outside world and are more often detrime~tal than beneficial to the native population. HR. SH1HS: What are you reading from there? MR. WARREN: I will table it,do not worry. Mr.

Speaker, it says the problems are, and I repeat, 'Alot of these problems 1 by the way 1 are initiated by the provincial government.' Mr. Speaker, the native people in this Province do not have any ambitions of running this Province, they also do not have any ambitions of separating from the Province. The only ambition they have is to be respected. They were the first born of this Province, they were the first settlers of this Province before it became a province, Tney were the first ones here,so let us respect them and let us not take away the little ~~at they have left. I am hoping, Mr.

Speaker, in concluding,and I am sure that the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development (Mr. Goudie) 1 who espouses being a Labradorian and being proud of being a Labradorian, will show his convictions and naturally will support the resolution as I will support the resolution. And not only support the resolution, but to stand up and show once and for all that we have to respect 7966

pecember 2, H83 Tape No. 3635 MJ- 2 MR. r7A..~: these people, ~hat these people cannot be trod on any longer . It is through the good graces of the Labrador Inuit Association and the I'~ Association, these two groups have been the powerful force that is forcing th is government to at least listen to their desires and their ambitions. And their desire and ambition, Mr. Speaker, is to be treated as true Canadians and true Newfoundlanders and Labradorians. With that, Mr. Speaker, I support the resolution that was put forward by the Premier and I hope and pray, Mr.

Speaker, that this resolution will open the Premier 's eyes to realize that the native people who live in Labrador are part of this Province. There would not have been any need for the Premier to bring in this resolution if he bad done his homework in November 198l,but, Mr . Speaker, he was too headstrong 1as he is in many other things 1and what has happened now is that 7967

December 2, 1983 Tape No. 3636 SD - 1 MR. WARREN: we have to have this debate 1 and I hope that the benefits derived will be the benefits for the minority groups in this Province. And sometimes, Mr. Speaker, it is worth our while to listen to what those minority groups have to say~whether they are French Canadians, whether they are natives or whether they are some minority religious group,because, no matter who they are, whatever they have to say sometimes let us not be to high and mighty not to listen to them because they are ,an important segment of our society. And with that in mind, Mr.

Speaker, I support the resolution. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. , MR. SPEAKER (Aylwardl: The hon. Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. GOUDIE: Mr. Speaker, I am not quite sure how to begin this debate this morning. After listening to the gentleman who represents Torngat Mountains (~r. Warren) yesterday and again today,perhaps I should not say I am embarrassed to follow him as he 9bviously does not understand what this resolution is about and he sure does not know what he is talking about.

All he has done for the last hour or so,combining his words yesterday and today 1 is quote from letters from some place or other, letters that he has not tabled-and I do not care wh.ether he tables them or not, it does not rna tter to me - quoting so-called experts on native peoples in Newfoundland and Labrador and in Canada, offered nq_ __ C)r:>in.ion MR. SIMMS: Yes, and British Columbia. MR. GOUDIE: In British Columbia, yes, of course. He offered no opinions on anything.

I have to congratulate him for one thing and that is in the last couple of minutes of his speech he did make reference to one of the greatest and certainly most effective native leaders we have had in this · Province 1 in my recall of the last thirty · years or so,and 7968

December 2, 1983 Tape No. 3636 SD - 2 MR. GOUDIE: that is the late Bill Edmunds, and I want to have a couple of words about him a little later on. MR. WARREN: A good man, a good man. MR. GOUDIE: I must compliment him for that 1 although I think he just happened to slip it in as an after thought at the tail end,which is the way he usually approaches things. In any event, Mr. Speaker, the gentleman says he is going to begrudgingly support this particular resolution.

The only elected representative in this Legislature who represents the majority of native peoples in this Province is going to begrudgingly recognize the righs of native peoples in the Constitution of Canada. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Shame, shame. MR. GOUDIE: The man should hang his head in shame and resign from the House of Assembly. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear. MR. GOUDIE: I never thought I would ever be embarrassed, Mr. Speaker, to recognize a fellow representative from a Dabrador riding in this Province. MR. WARREN: MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

A point of order, the hon. Mr. Speaker, if the minister would look back over Hansard he will see that right from the beginning I said that I would support· the resolution. I said today on two oc~asions I would support the resolution. And that is more than the minister would do in 1981, and he is a true-blooded Labradorian. MR. OTTENHEIMER: To that point of order 1 Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the hon. Minister of Justice. MR. OTTENHEH1ER: Obviously it is not a point of 7969

December 2, 1983 Tape No. 3636 SD - 3 MR. OTTENEEIMER: order but it is a point of great rudeness because the han. gentleman from Torngat r1ountains (.Mr. Warren) spoke for over an hour without one interruption or a point of order from the han. minister 1 and he should extend the same courtesy to that han. gentleman who has only spoken for a minute and a half. MR. HISCOCK: MR. SPEAKER (.Aylward) : member for Eagle River. To that point of order, I-tr. Speaker. To that point of order, the han. MR. HISCOCK: Mr.

Speaker, he may have spoken for an hour but he did not at any time end up saying that the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development (Mr. Goudiel should resign. The member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warrenl is,like all members of the House of Assembly, in here ny the due wishes of the people cmd it is up to the people of each district to turn around and decide whether they should resign or turned out of office in a general election. So it is not a point of order, Mr. Speaker, whatsoever and it is not a point of rudeness either. MR. SPEAKER; MR. SIMMS: MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. To that point of order, the han. Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, I just want to make the point that the member for Torngat Mountains raised the point of order,and it is very pleasant indeed to see that his colleague from Eagle River (~. Hiscockl now agrees that it is · not a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, I rule there is a difference of opinion between two hon. memners. The hon. Minister for Rural, Agriculture and Northern Development. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear, MR. GOUDIE; Thank you, Mr. Speaker. 7970

December 2, 1983 Tape No . 3636 so - 4 MR. GOODIE: I did not say that the non. gentleman from the Torngat district (_Mr. Warren } did not support the resolution. I said he supports it begrudgingly, which was obvious for the last hour that the hon . gentleman spoke to this resolution. ae has no interest, . ' 7971

December 2, 1983 Tape No. 3637 MR. GOUDIE: I do not think, in promoting the welfare or raising the concerns 1 or acting upon the concerns of the residents of Torngat district, again I will repeat, the district in this Province which has almost a total population of Native people. There is one other community in Labrador, in my district, the community of Shesheshit,which has an Indian population, there is a community down here on the Island part of the Province, Conne River, that we are all aware of, and there are Native peoples in a few other communities scattered throughout the Province.

NM- 1 So that gentlemen represents the majority of native peoples in this Province, and he stands here and begrudgingly supports this resolution. MR. BAIRD: He should resign. MR. GOUDIE: He is confused, Mr. Speaker. He deliberately miscontrues information, he has been doing it since he has been a member of this Legislature, and persists in doing it again. Just let me give the hon. gentleman, through you, Mr. Speaker, one example. He says that the Premier does not consult, I ~hink he meant with anyone in the Province but he certainly referree specifically to Native people, that he does not consult with them.

He raises something about a resolution that was brought in here a couple of years ago and expresses great concern that the Premier, and myself, he mentioned me specifically several times, did not have the nerve to support Native peoples, etc., etc., etc. I want to assure the han. gentlemen and all members of the Legislature, Mr. Speaker, that I most certainly support native peoples. Perhaps 1 thankfully, in my opinion, but perhaps the gentleman may be upset that he 7972

December 2, 1983 Tap e N o. 363 7 NM - 2 MR. GOUDIE: is not sitting around the table in Ottawa involved in these discussions, an opportunity which I have to take

part in - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. GOUDIE: - and something which I do with a great deal of pride, Mr. Speaker, and will continue as long as the Premier and this government designates me as one of the people to represent Native people in this Province at the national level in the constitutional talks. When that particular resolution that he referred to, which was brought in a couple of years ago, Mr. Speaker, was dealt with, I met with all the leaders of the native groups in the Province and talked with some individuals about their concerns.

They wanted to be assured that their rights and aspirations were going to be covered under the Constitution. The proposal put forth by the Premier, as I understand it - perhaps I misunderstood it but as I understand it- was to assure the native peoples of Canada that within a year 1 I believe, subject to correction by the Minister of Justice (Mr.

Ottenheimer), he is better informed on a lot of the details than I am, but I understood within a year or two that native peopl~s' ri~hts would be debated under the constitution and appropriate amendments made thereto, which is what we are in the process of doing here right now.

Talk about consultation~ The Premier and myself made telephone calls, his staff made telephone calls, sent letters to the leaders of the three native groups in this Province, the Labrador Inuit Association, the Naskaup~ Montagnai~ Inuit Association and the Federation of Newfoundland Indians, indicating to them, prior to the first First Ministers'Conference,that such a conference was taking place dealing with ~boriginal 7973 .·

December 2, 1983 Tape No. 3637 NM - 3 MR. GOUDIE: issues, and rights, etc., are you prepared to come into St, John's, or select a location, to talk about your concerns so that we may address them a little more accurately and in turn present them during the discussions at the First Ministers' level? There was one response, Mr. Speaker, from the three groups 1 and that was from the Labrador Innuit Association. The other two groups, the NMIA and the Federation of Newfoundland Indians, either did not have an interest or did not care that we wanted to represent them during the constitutional talks.

They did not wish to meet with us. As a matter of fact, they stated they do not recognize the Government of this Province ,and I believe they furthe _r do not recognize the Government of Canada but I am not sure about that, but they certainly do not recognize the Government of this Province. I sat in for about three hours, Mr. Speaker, along with my colleague, the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer), the Premier, and representatives of the LIA, downstairs in the Cabinet Room, and discussed their concerns and they had with them a Mr.

Charlie Watt, a gentleman who I believe at that time was with the ICNI, the Inuit Committee on National Issues. And the discussion I thought was extremely fruitful. we presented our position to them on constitutional matters. They in turn presented theirs, and we walked out of the meeting with agreement,as I understood it. And the positions that they put forth were subsequently put forth by myself, by - . - --- - ·- -- ----- - - my colleagues the ~inister of Justice and the Premier,at these constitutional talks.

So do not anyone get the impression that the Government of this Province does not consult with Native peoples or any other groups in Newfoundland and Labrador. It does and will continue to do so. 7974

Dece~er 2, 1983 Tape 3638 PK - 1 MR. GOUDIE: The Premier, he says, betrayed the Native people, betrayed the Native people of Labrador,specifically he was referring to,and made reference to an activity which took place last Spring involving the West German Air Force at Goose Bay airlifting some caribou from the interior of Labrador out to Nain,and also assisting the hunters with their equipmen~ and so on1which was in the country because of an early and heavy thaw. Mrc Speaker, what the gentleman does not mention'-and, of course, why whould he rrention this?

It is not in his best interest, although it is in the best interest of the report that he presentee- AN HON. MEMBER: And in the people" MR. GOUDIE: -And in the people,obviously.- my staff and I were in touch with leaders up in that area and explained to them that funding was available under the Native Peoples agreement.'If you want to hire a chopper in the next hou~hire a chopper, hire an aircraft, go in, haul out what you want.' No, Mr. Speaker,they'rwould not take advantage of itr would not use the funds. So someone else is brought into the fray.

That was at the time the only way that the government of this-Province could assist. We agreed to make choppers available, we agreed to pay for the helicopters, we agreed to fly the meat out and everything else , which was done by the West German Air Force, which I though was a great humanitarian act on their behalf1and they have been complimented, I personally did it myself as did my former executive assistant,_ .J ....... --·--- MR. WARREN: So did I. MR. GOUDIE: Good! Good! At least he had the decency to do that. In any event, Mr.

Speaker, it was late in the game when the West German Air Force finally came in and did something about it~ some of the meat was spoiled 7975

December 2, 1983 Tape 3638 PK - 2 MR. GOUDIE: and there were other difficulties as well. All I am suggesting is that the government of the day, this administration in place now, made an offer to resolve the problem:the offer was rejected. I do not think we can go any further than that. If we had made the decision to go ahead and do it anyway,then the han. gentleman would stand in· the House and say, You are making decisions on behalf of the Native people and ramming it down their throats. MR. ANDREWS: There you go. MR. GOUDIE: So what do you do? You do the best you can. AN RON. MEMBER: You did what? MR.

GOUDIE: Now, Mr. Speaker, I want to make reference to a gentleman. One of the other things that the gentleman representing Torngat disrict did not do was talk about Native people. He did not discuss them at all. I do not know if it is because he knows nothing about them or has no concern for them,cr is just furthering his political future~ I understand h~ is running for leadership of the party. I was also told that he is going to decide by the 24 of November-whether or not he was going to go'and make his announcement.

Now I do not think he made an announcement, I - - I did not hear an announcement, _ Perhaps he did, I have no I idea, I did not hear it. MR. &~DREWS: It was a quiet announcement. MR. GOUDIE: A quiet announcement. Well 1 perhaps he is delaying a little bit further until after the by-election is over before he makes that type of announcement. E do not know. MR. BAIRD: Pro'Jably he is looking for a seconder. ' 7976

December '2, 19 .83 Tape 3638 PK - 3 MR. GOUDIE: That is the problem, trying to get a seconder. I do not know what his asperations are for not talking about the Native people .or their concerns in his discussions on the constitution - MR. ANDREWS: He knows nothing about them. MR. GOUDIE: - and I cannot and will not attribute motives to the hon . gentleman, but I did compliment him on one thing, and that is the only thing I can compliment him on in his speech which lasted an hour or so, and that was his very minor reference to the late Bill Edmunds.

I thought Bill Edmundsr in my knowledge of him, I knew the man for about thirty-five years, spent twenty-five years at Goose Bay working for the most part with the American Forces, walked out of there with awards of ' ' 7977

' December 2, 1983 Tape 3639 EC - 1 MR. GOUDIE: all kinds from the American Forces for the contribution he made to their particular service in the Goose Bay area, twenty-five years of operating heavy equipment, snow re- moval equipment, without an accident, without a minute of down time. He dragged himself up by his bootstraps and went on to become a contributor to the lifestyles of several communities on the Coast of Labrador - HR. ANDREWS: An interpreter for CBC. MR.

GOUDIE: - an interpreter for CBC, amongst other things, raised a family and became, in my opinion, the most effective leader the Labrador Inuit Association has ever had so far. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. GOUDIE: Perhaps there will be greater, I do not know, but he, until his death, was certainly the most effective leader I have seen up there and had the respect not only of his own people, his oWn peers, but the respect, I am sure, of every member of this caucus and 1 certainly, every member of this government. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! HR. NEARY: And the previous government. MR.

"GOUDIE: Well, someone else, Mr. ~peaker, can speak for the previous government, I suppose, I do not wish to at this particular time. I sat around the constitutional table, if you will, in Ottawa, in company with other repre- sentatives from this Province and it gave me a little bit of pride. I think I was the only person who can be referred to as 'native' who was sitting as a member of a government at that particular time, other than the Northwest Territorial Government, which was represented in part by James Washee, and which, after the most recent election will continue to ' 7978

December 2, 1983 Tape 3639 EC - 2 MR. GOUDIE: be represented by him, as I understand his portfolio to be. But one of the things that caused me a little bit of chagrin - I do not know what about other people who attended that conference - was that the gentleman from Torngat Mountains (Mr . Warren) continued to berate the Premier of this Province, which is his right, it is the way he does things. But I have to say one thing, Mr.

Speaker: I was not particularly proud of our Prime Minister, the First Minister of this country, when he stood around that constitutional table and said, 'Are we going to have to go through these prayers again?' The native leaders of this country stood there, in their faith, in their commitment, and wanted simply to begin the constitutional talks with a prayer, and that was the response they got from the Prime Minister of Canada! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Shame ! Shame ! MR. GOUDIE: Now, that is something to be proud of! That is something for the Liberal caucus of this Province to be proud of! MR. ANDREWS: MR.

GOUDIE: Re is not a statesman. Statesman! He had a reputation for being a statesman for a few years but he has cert~inly gone down, and t think that was obvious in the remarks of summation by the native leaders at the end of that First Ministers' Conference when they,rightfully so and very effectively, put him in his place, and,hopefully, he will stay there. In any event, Mr. Speaker, I should not spend all my time, I suppose~ referring to the remarks of the hon. gentleman from Torngat Mountains or the Prime Minister. MR. WARREN: No, boy, say something good. 7979

December 2, 1983 Tape 3639 EC - 3 MR. GOUDIE: I thought everything I said so far was good, Mr. Speaker. I most certainly thought it was appropriate. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 7980

DeceiDber 2,1983 Tape No . 3640 ah-1 MR.GOUDIE: One of the items covered in this resolution, Mr. Speaker, that I want to just make a brief reference torand I do not recall the hen. member for Torngat Mountains (Mr.Warren) referring to it, he may have and I may have missed it, but one of the great inequalities in terms of legislation, which has been in place in Canada for a great number of years,hopefully is soon to be abolished, and that is what is referred to as the Indian Act. I do not know if han. gentlemen opposite know the Act, I do not know it in detail, I know of it, I know some of the things it says.

But,as the Premier pointed out in his remarks yesterday,there was division between the native peoples themselves in terms of whether or not female Native people should have - what?-equal rights, I guess is the proper term to use. Under the old Indian Act, for instance, if a Native woman married an non-Native she automatically lost her rights; however, the reverse is not true. If a Native male married an non-Native 1 he did not lose his rights. That has been a great bone of contention for a great number of years, obviously from the female point of view more so than the male. I think that is understandable.

I understand there is a Standing Committee,or a committee of the House of Commons which is addressing itself to the Indian Act and I think one of the preliminary indications is that the Act will probably be abolished. Now that is only a suggestion, I do not think the decision has been made. But certainly the Native female leaders of the country made their case very well known at these constitutional talks and,as a matter of fact,in the proposed amendment now they have progressed far enough 7981

December 2,1983 Tape No. 3640 ah-2 MR.GOUDIE: that rights of males and females will apply equally. And I think they,along with the other leaders of the country,are to be congratulated for the efforts put forth into that. The gentleman who just finished speaking before I stood,indicated that I should be embarrassed, I think, about the role our Premier played and I played in relation to dealing with Native ~eoples and the subsequent discussions on the resolution. I do not recall any particular reason why I should be embarrassed or ashamed of the way that I deal with Native people.

I was involved on the periphery in most cases, and in some detail at the tail end of it,in helping to put in place a $50 million agreement over five years, a federal/provincial agreement,which will inject funds into the han. gentleman's district. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.GOUDIE: I was involved, again in a peripheral. · way in dealing with other Native people, if you will , in Labrador, people of my racial background who live in other parts of Labrador,where another $50 million is going into the coast of Labrador over the next five years.

As a matter of fact,I think the two gentlemen who represent coastal ridings in Labrador, Torngat and Eagle River,could be at least a little grateful to me,and evern more grateful to the government of this Province ·for getting them re-elected. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR.GOUDIE: They would not have been re-elected, Mr. Speaker, if it were not for the government of this Province. They should show a little gratitude, a little bit of gratitude. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 7982

December' 2,19-83 Tape No . 3640 ah-3 MR.GOUDIE: Now, I would think, Mr. Speaker, that that type of information presented in that way does not go into his campaign literature either for the leadership or for re-election in his district. All I am saying, I think, Mr. Speaker, in a.ll of this is that I thought the bon. gentleman opposite,who just assumed his seat before I began to speak , I was a little disappointed that he did not offer any opinions, whether or not this is a good or a bad thing . He did begrudgingly say that he was going to support it. And the impression I got was that he would not support it except for Native people and Native peoples ' rights, 7983

December 2, 1983 Tape No. 3641 MJ - l MR. GOUDIE: but certainly, if it were something that the Premier himself only was involved in and dealt with other matters, he would not support it because obviously he is dead set against the leader of this government. Why, I do not know. I believe our leader here has made a greater contribution to this Province, to native peoples in this Province than any other leader in history, and that can go back 400 or 500 years. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. GOUDIE: He did make reference to the fact that we have not outlined our policy in relation to land claims etc.

And I.find that a little confusing as well, because I sat in a meeting room in Coppermine in the North West Territories two years at which there were representatives of the Labrador Inuit Association, the late Mr. Edmonds being one of them, Fran Williams, the present leader was another, and outlined the policy of the government of this Province in relation to land claims. They called for it, we had outlined our policy about a week prior to that publicly, and I outlined it again. ·He expressed some frustration about the fact that the Premier or the government has not dealt with the Conne River reserve situation.

I think the only comment I can make on that is to remind the hon. gentleman that the - leaders of Conne River have the case in front of the Supreme Court of Canada at this point in time, and it has been there for some time. They are dealing with it. Obviously, when they are done with it and a decision is rendered, then we will. But at this point in time, we have stated quite clearly to the residents of Conne River - I have personally, so has the Premier that we do not recognize aboriginal rights 7984

December 2, 1983 Tape No . 3641 MJ - 2 MR. GOUDIE: in the community of Conne River. We recognize them on the Island part of the Province . ~m. ANDREI'VS : Anywhere else? MR . GOUDIE : That is correct. Specifically in this case to Conne River. We recognize aboriginal rights in Labrador for the Inuit and the Naskaupi Mantangnais Indians and they in turn have gone on to offer some claims partially in the Province of Quebec. l-1R. ANDREWS : It would be interesting to find out what the Liberal position is on aboriginal rights on the Island . MR. GOUDIE: It most certainly "would.

I have never heard it addressede Never ever heard the issue raised other than a criticism,or a comment of criticism such as the type that was put forth this morning. HR. ANDREWS: MR. GOUDIE: Ikles the Opp::>sition have a t;esition? I do not know. I would · ' gladly yield if one of the hon. gentlemen opposite want to outline the Liberal position or policy on native rights in this Province. MR. CARI'ER: MR. GOUDIE : Or even their theories. No, no takers, Hr. Speaker. Well, all I want to do is indicate to the han.

House that I still fully support the amendment that is being put forth here toda y that was moved by the hon. the Premier. I certainl y do not do it grudingly, Mr . Speaker, never did, never will 1and I look forward to continuing in January 1for instance 1 in Yellowknife, in February in Toronto,and hopefully in March in Ottawa 1in continuing to have an input into these Constitutional talks. I will part of the provincia~ delegation to attend and take

part in the discussions,and the native peoples of Labrador and Newfoundland know, as they have known since I have been the :. minister responsible for administering agreements, that I am available to them, the Premier of the Province is 7985

Decembe r 2, 1983 Tape No. 3641 MJ - 3 MR . GOUDI~: available to them to discuss their concerns . As a matter of fact, the bon . gentlemen might like to know that I have made arrangements already to sit down with some native leaders,when we get together in Yellowknife,to discuss the speci£ic concerns of their communities - never mind the Constitutional issues, that obviously is a major significance- but we are going to sit down and discuss other concerns to them as well with a view to resolving their problems. That is the way it has always been , that is the way it will always be.

And I support with a great deal of pride, Mr. Speaker, not only because the Premier of this Province has moved the resolution, or the governmel!t of this Province is involved in the' discussions, but because, Mr. Speaker, the talks taking place now,and the talks that will take place 7986

December 2, 1983 Tape No. 3642 SD - 1 MR. GOUDIE: in the future 1will ensure for all time the rights, the privileges,and guarantee the aspirations of the native peoples in this country not only to a fair and equitable living and lifestyle,but will most certainly give them a greater deal of hope for their future than they have had in the past,and will put in place guarantees for them to assure that their aspirations are met. And I support this resolution with a great deal of pride, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hear, hear. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward).: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, it is unfortunate indeed that the hon. gentleman who just took his seat spent the first ten or fifteen minutes of his few remarks berating my colleague 1the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren), who made one of the finest speeches that I believe I ever heard made in this hon. House. Mr. Speaker, one thing that the han. gentleman should not do is to accuse my hon. colleague of not having the interest of the native peoples at heart 1 because hon . members supporting the administration do not believe that.

If there was ever a man alive on the face of this earth who is doing more to further the rights of native peoples, Mr. Speaker, it is my colleague 1the member for Torngat Mounta .ins. Mr. Speaker, I do not believe anybody in this House believed what the hon. gentleman said about my colleague not being sincere, not having the interest of the native peoples· at heart. statement? Is it? MR. GOUDIE: MR. TOBIN: if he runs for the leadership. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, is that a true Yes. Garfied is going to beat you too Mr.

Speaker, we talked this morning quite a bit about observing the rules of this House~ Ignorance is one thing that is not tolerated in this 7987

December 2, 1983 Tape No. 3642 SD - 2 MR. NEARY: House. The Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) seems to have some kind of a class hang up; if you are not in the hon. gentleman's class then you are accused of all kinds of vile things in this House. Mr. Speaker, I ask to have the rules enforced. I did not interrupt the hon. gentleman who just spoke and who just took his seat. And I think it is time, Mr.

Speaker, for the crowd there opposite to realize that they are not out in Feathers or in Friends or in the Sea Breeze or in some of the other taverns of this Province. they are in the House of Assembly and it is time they realized that. MR. TOBIN: ~·re do not know about clubs. - MR. NEARY: to enforce the rules 1please. MR. SPEAKER (.McNicholas): Mr. Speaker, I ask Your Honour Order, please! MR. NEARY: You would swear you were in a beer garden to listen to the comments of some of these people. They are not at a hockey game, they are in the House of Assembly. MR. HOUSE: The hon. qentleman is revealing an obsession.

He is ah1ays talking about beer qardens. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, one indication of how the Labrador Inuit Association feel about my colleague was when he managed to pursuade the West German Air Force to remove that meat that was on the ground that would have spoiled if my colleague had not come to the rescue of the Native people in the Northern part of this Province. Now, Mr. Speaker, this is only one illustration. I'have met in the last year or so, since I became Leader of this Party, leaders of the Inuit Association, I have been in Goose Bay and I talked to Native peoples.

They have come to Confederation Building and they have come to my office. Mr.' Speaker, I do not think that they have a more warm ·and friendly feeling for anybody in this Province than they do about my colleague who worked among th .em for 7988

tieceffib er 2, 1983 Tape'.No. 3643 MR. NEARY: . so long. And I dare anybody to dispute that, including the hon . gentleman who just berated my colleague for not being sincere and having the interest of the Native people at heart, Mr. Speaker, And I will read just one letter,as testimony to what I am saying, from the Labrador Innuit Association. "2 May 1983 1 Mr. Garfield Warren, M.H.A., Torngat Mountain District, Confederation Building, St. John's, Newfoundland. Dear Garf ield, Please accept NM - 1 our gratitude for the role you played in averting a potential catastrophe of major proportions.

The contact and influence you were able to execute on our behalf was a decisive factor in puttin~ together the caribou airlift operation in such a short time. Final counts indicate that 15,000 pounds of 9aribou were saved and an estimated $79,000 worth of machiney, gear and fuel. "The membership of the Labrador Innuit Association nas been informed of your contribution. · ''Yours truly, Frances Williams, President of theLIA ." Now, Mr. Speaker, that is just one letter of testimony to my hon. colleague for the outstanding work that he is doing for the Native people of Northern Labrador~ ~nd he is , Mr.

Speaker, hon. members cannot dispute 1 that my colleague is about the finest district member in this House . Even the media of the Province acknowledges that. MR. TOBIN: Bill Rowe said it the other day. Bill Rowe sald it the other day. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, could Your 7989

December 2, 1983 Tape No. 3643 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: Honour enforce the rule? !s there a rule against ignorance in this House, Mr. Speaker? MR. TOBIN: If there were you would not be here. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas) : ·order, please! MR. NEARY: If it is not there,we should one in. We should amend the rules that ignornace would be one of the reasons why you would be named in this House. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, even the media acknowledge the fact that my colleague is a hard worker, that he is sincere, that he is a good district man, and is doing a good job for the 1m.

WINDSOR: That is who you should get "to campaign in Terra Nova. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the han. gentleman just gotthe fright of his life down in Terra Nova. If I were the han. gentleman now I would just keep quiet today • .. . . ,..... - -· ~-- .. . ·~ MR. WINDSOR: You come on back down With rre • We will see who gets the fright. MR. NEARY: Now, Mr. Speaker, the han. gentleman who just took his seat obviously was smarting under some of the remarks made by my colleague about the Premie~ in the constitutional discussions, how he let the Native populat~on of this Province down. I will be very kind to him.

I would say he let them down, Mr. Speaker. Now how does Mr. Adrian Tanner feel about the hon. gentleman who made these remarks? My han. colleague was quoting from the report earlier and we are prepared to table it. These are not my words, not my d0Tleague 1 s-~words, these are the words of Mr. Adrian Tanner, 7990

December 2, 1983 Tape No. 3643 NM - 3 MR. NEARY : who is-what? The chief advisor to the support group. He said, "The speech of Joe Goudie, Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development, added very little except to make Goudie sound very ill at ease with the issue. Although he made a great thing of his Indian and Inuit heritage,he was unable to explain his own contradictory position. He admitted that the previous Tuesday he had stated publicly that he was in favour of reinstatement and could only explain his support for Peckford's action in dropping the clause by saying the end result would be the same.

The debate faded away without a vote." Now, Mr. Speaker, we are prepared to table this report if Your Honour so desires. And that statement is not made by a politician. What I am saying, - . Mr. Speaker , ·'is -.that . I-.will stack my han. colleague's sinceritY and his good .. intentions up against the member for Naskaupi (Mr .Goudie) any day in the week. Now, Mr. Speaker, what are we debating here? Well 1 we are debating a resolution that will, if passed by all ten provinces of Canada, will bring about a resolution of an item that was not included in the Canadian Constitution when it was passed.

That is what we are debating here. And the Premier had as good an opportunity as anybody at that time to remain adamant, 7991

December 2, 1983 Tape 3644 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: to stand firm on behalf of these people and say No, there is going to be no constitutional agreement unless and until the Native rights in this Province were protected. But he was jumpy and jittery, I suppose,like all the other premiers were and anxious to get an agreement, so , Mr. Speaker, he agreed;the hon. Premier agreed to drop that particular item in the constitution, he agreed to drop it. But, Mr.

Speaker, the sad part of it is this,then he brought a resolution into the House of Assembly in order to cover up for his letting the Native people in this Province down , to distract from the fact that he had shown a great sign of weakness, that he had not stood up for the rights of the Native people,then he brought a resolution into this House. And ,listen to what the resolution says, Mr. Speaker, 'Rights of the aboriginal peoples of Canada. 34

(1) The existing aboriginal and treaty rights of the aboriginal peoples of Canada are hereby recoqnized and affirmed.' Now the key word there is the 'existing'. That is what my hon. colleague objected to when this resolution came before the House, Mr. Speaker. That is what my hon. colleague objected to, 'existing~, because as hon. members know,and the member for Naskaupi (Mr. Goudie} probably is more aware of it than any other member of this House,that they have no agreements, there are no existing agreements. And therein lies the problem and that is why my colleague objected to the resolution. MR. WARREN: MR.

NEARY: But he supported it. Then the member for Naskaupi , I am reminded by my colleague, supported the resolution knowing that it was futile, it was useless, it was a useless amendmen~'the existing aboriginal and treaty right~ And that is the key word, Mr. Speaker, and that is 7992

Dec:ember 2 , 19 8 3: Tape 3644 PK - 2 MR. NEARY : what my colleague objected to and that is why my colleague said ,and he has very strong feelings on this ,that he grudgingly supports the present resolution before the House . The reason he use that word 'grudgingly' is because too much tim e is being wasted in rectifying this matter, and there was too much of an indication of weakness on the part of the Premier of this Province when he walked away from the Native rights at the constitutional conference , Mr. Speaker. That is why my hon . friend use~ the word 'grudgingly '.

My hon. friend supports Nativ~ rights wholeheartedly,but he just wanted to make a point about tbe fact that the Premier had let down the Nativ e population,aided and abetted and supported by all hon. members there opposite • 7993

December 2, 1983 Tape 3645 EC - 1 MR. WARREN: And the lii nister was his key supporter. - . . -- MR. NEARY: We should thank my hon. colleague that that resolution did not go through back in 1981, that that resolution did not pass this House, because God only knows, if it had - MR. WARREN: The natives would have been worse off than ever. MR. NEARY: - if it had passed and the constitution had been amended, God only knows what would happen to the native population in this Province with that kind of wording. It was very cleverly worded, 'existing'. So, Mr.

Speaker, what has happened now is that wiser heads have prevailed and the ten provinces of Canada are now in the process of having a resolution that obviously was drafted by somebody other than anybody in this administration, because if this administration had their way they would have the word 'existing' in there·, which does not mean anything, that could do more harm than good, that could strip the native population of their rights and privileges. MR. TOBIN: They call it provincial Report. MR. SPEAKER (Dr. McNicholas): Order, please! MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, this resolution obviously was worded by somebody other than anybody in the present administration, because the wording now says: "Any rights or freedom now exists by the way of land claims and agreements or may be so acquired;' Underline that, "or may be so acquired." MR. WARREN: That is right. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, these are the key words. That makes a big difference, Mr. Speaker. MR. CARTER: The member's time is up. MR. WARREN: No, he has lots of time yet. 7994

December 2, 1983 Tape 3645 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: My hon. colleague, the member for Naskaupi (Mr. Goudie) can twist words all he wants, but we are wholeheartedly supporting this resolution, because we believe native rights should be protected. Mr. Speaker, the han. gentleman raised another matter that is dear to my heart 1 because I had the opportunity When I was Minister of Social Services to renegotiate a native agreement. All the hon. gentleman is doing is carrying on a procedure that was brought about by the terms of Confederation when the native population in this Province were put under provincial jurisdiction, provincial control,

whereas, as hon. members know, in other parts of Canada they come under the direct jurisdiction of the federal government. And this is the only province in Canada where the provincial government looks after the native population , native rights and so on. When I was minister, I had an opportunity to renew an agreement. All the hon. gentleman did was to carry on something that we had started. Now, Mr. Speaker, it could be argued, I suppose, that it was a mistake at the time of Confederation to so do . The hon . gentleman nods. You know, on reflection, Mr.

Speaker, I might b~ tempted to agree with the han. gentleman. What I am arguing now is it may have been a mistake not to allow the native population of Newfoundland and Labrador to fall directly under federal jurisdiction as is the case in other parts of Canada. MR. GOUDIE: We might not have the same problems if things had been done tha t way. MR. NEARY: Probably not. My .hon. friend says that we might not have the same problems. 7995

December 2, 1983 Tape 3645 EC - 3 .MR. NEARY: Getting back to the agreement, my hon. friend did renegotiate and sign an agreement. But, Mr. Speaker, it is one thing to renegotiate and sign an agreement but it is another matter to deliver on that agreement. .MR. WARREN: That is right • MR. NEARY.: I do not believe many houses have been built in Northern Labrador in recent years. MR. WARREN: three years. MR. NEARY: Not one in Nain in the la st My hon. colleague says not one in Nain in the las .t three years, and I understand they need fo .rty or fifty houses up there now.

So the big problem with the agreement is that: the hon. gentleman has not delivered on the agreement. And I must say that I went to Northern Labrador last year with my colleague,and last Winter I went to 7996

December 2, 1983 Tape No . 3646 MJ - 1 MR. NEARY: Rigolet, Mr. Speaker, I went to Davis ·Inlet. Now hon. members may recall that Davis Inlet was one of the communities in Northern Labrador that was relocated back in the 1960s. When my hon. colleague was living in Northern Labrador, living and working there, Davis Inlet was relocated and it was one of the most beautiful communi ties 1 I suppose 1 in Northern Labrador .- two rows of houses, two roads , beautiful trees - it was a beautiful place.

I went back there last Fall and I must say I got the shock of my life, I could not believe that a communit y could deteriorate so fast. It was heartbreaking, Mr. Speaker. So something has gone wrong, something has gone off the rails in Northern Labrador 1and·that is why we hear my colleague day in and day out in this House raise these matters. They are very serious matters and we hear of professional people making statements and compiling reports outside of the House.

So the han. gentleman may have an agreement that was p~ded for by a Liberal administration in this Province~ - and I not arguing about the merits or demerits or whether or not the native population should have been provincial jurisdiction or federal but the agreement is there 1 and what my han. friend should do is deliver on that agreement. So, Mr . Speaker, I do not know if there --±s very much else I can say about this resolution. As I indicated,the key words are, 'or may be so acquired.' Now, Mr .

Speaker, I feel that if we had proceeded with the original resolution, the one that was drawn up by the administration there opposite, the wording no doubt drafted by the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) or in the Premier's office, the native population, Mr . Speaker, ·would lose confidence in their elected representatives and in 7997

December 2, 1983 Tape No. 3646 MJ - 2 MR.NEARY: their government and in this House of Assembly. and they would be wide open for abuse. God only knows they are getting hemmed in enough now, their lives are being so regulated for them now that they can hardly turn. Their hunting and their fishing rights, their traditional rights, Mr.

Speaker, practically every Session that goes by in this House there is some intrusion into native rights ,simply because the people who make these regulations and draft the legislation do not understand the background, they do not understand the tradional rights of these people and they do not understand their culture. You cannot regulate fishing and hunting for native people or trapping people the same as you do for the people on the Island here. You cannot do that, Mr. Speaker, !1y hon. colleague realizes that we are moving that direction 1 we are he1nrning the native people in as much as we can. MR.

WARREN: both of them. MR. NEARY: And the federal government too, At both levels of governmentJ we are boxing them in and we are frustrating the people, The hon. gentleman knows that. MR. WARREN: fishing licences. MR. NEARY: They have got to pay for their Yes, that is right they have to pay for their fishing licence now. That is right. MR. GOUDIE: MR. NEARY: their caribou licence. MR. GOUDIE: MR. NEARY: licence,do they? MR. GOUDIE: MR. NEARY: MR. GOUDIE: What about caribou? I do not think they pay for Unlimited number of caribou. They do pay for their caribou No. They do not need one. No. 7998

December 2, 1983 Tape No. 3646 MJ ·- 3 MR. NEARY: Anyway, Mr. Speaker, we are over-regulating, we are making life very, very frustrating for these people, we are gradually boxing them in. 7999

\, December 2, 1983 Tape No. 3647 SD - l MR. NEARY: And now once the Constitution- MR. WARREN: Just look at the Strange Lake development. MR. NEARY: Yes, that is right, Strange Lake, which was raised yesterday, is an example of that. Because, Mr. Speaker, I do not know if hon. members there opposite really got the point yesterday when my colleague raised this matter and I asked some questions about it. What is happening in that area now you have aircraft flying in and out of there, the Iron Ore Company of Canada built a landing strip on the Queoec side of Labrador, they have camps down there.

And what they are doing, r1r. Speaker, they are interferring ~.,i th the movement of the caribou - MR. WARREN: And the calfing ground. MR. NEARY: - and the calfing ground. That is what they are doing. They are doing that now - MR. WARREN: According to biologists. MR. NEARY: - according to the letter my colleague had from a provincial biologist employed with the administration, with the provincial government. And yet they shrug it off with the feable, weak excuse that there is no need for an environmental impact study at this moment.

No, wait until it is wiped out,like everything else they d0, then lock the barn door after the horse is stolen, Mr. Speaker. There is need right now for an environmental impact study on that problem in Strange Lake 1which could develop into a jurisdictional problem and then become more complicated then it is at the moment, Mr. Speaker. So we are,whether we care to admit it or not, we are infringing on the rights of Native peoples every time we pass a bill in this House that gives the bureaucrats the right to make regulations, Mr. Speaker.

I remember once when I was in Northern Labrador when a gentleman had his " skidoo and his guns and ammunition and all his belongings seized by the Department of Resources ' because he shot a white bear contrary to th .e regulations, 8000

December 2, 1983 Tape No. 3647 SD - 2 MR. NEARY: my han. colleague will remember, and one of the regulations was that you had to put up a sign, a sign had to be put up to indicate to the people that it was illegal to shoot white bears now in Northern Labrador. Well,this particular hunter had been out hunting when the sign was put up. And when he went hunting he did not know that you were not allowed to shoot white bears so he brought back the bear skin.And what happened?

They seized it on him and they took his skidoo and his guns and his ammunition and everything else belonging to him 1 and I fought the case and I got it back for him. They charged him. It was ridiculous, it was so ridiculous that the Crown would not proce·ed with the case once I got hold of it,and they gave him back his skidoo and his ammunition, his guns and all his belongings and everything else, Mr. Speaker.

But the point I am making is that this h~s happened too often. r remember one~ when I landed in Postville, I had a group of people come up to the aircraft and say, 'Look, theY: have taken our skidoos and our ;rifles and everything else belong to us ·' • And we had to fight that one to try to get their things back for them. 8001

December 2,1983 Tape No. 3648 ah-1 MR.NEARY: So I think, Mr. Speaker, it is time that we had something entrenched in the constitution. The Premier missed a golden opportunity to do it. He walked out and he patted himself on the back and tried to take credit for bringing about the compromise, he tried to take credit for it. And in the process of trying to get himself a little pat on the back to try to make himself look good,he walked 'away from the Native population in this Province. I would not go so far as to say he betrayed them,but certainly he let them down.

He let them down in the interest of his own image and in trying to leave the impression that he made a major contribution to the compromise that brought about a resolution of a long,drawn-out constitutional debate. So, Mr. Speaker, let us hope that we will get on with the business of passing this resolution, let us hope that the other provinces of Canada will not delay its passage in their legislatures and that pretty soon Native rights in this Province and in other provinces of Canada will be fully recognized and entrenched in the Constitution of Canada. That is the way it should be , Mr. Speaker.

On motion, resolution carried. Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Consolidate The Law Relating To Compensation To Workers ~or Injuries Suffered In The Course Of Their Employment~" (Bill No. 80) SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR.SPEAKER (Aylward) : and Manpower. Hear, hear! The hon. Minister of Labour BD02

December 2,1983 Tape No. 3648 ah-2 MR.DINN: Mr. Speaker, it gives me a great deal of pleasure this morning to introduce "An Act To Consolidate The Law Relating To Compensation To Workers For Injuries Suffered In The Course Of Their Employment." Mr.Speaker, this legislation brings about a significant realignment of the workers' compensation system in this Province. This is the first time since the original Workers' Compensation Act , passed by the legislature in l95l,that the legislation and administration of the ' workers' compensation system has been completely overhauled.

At the same time the legislation governing workers' compensation in this Province has been dramatically revised to improve the benefit system to claimants and the methods of financing the various programmes offered under the workers' compensation system. MR.NEARY: Mr • . Speaker, a point of order. MR.SPEAKER (Aylward): A point of order. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR.NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I just want to draw to the attention of the House,and especially the Government House Leader,that my friend opposite is reading from notes. Now I do not object to that sort of thing, Mr.

Speaker, I just want to make a point. He can carry on , he can read a speech or he can read from notes, it will not affect me a bit. But I just want to draw it to the attention of the gentleman who turns up his nose at anybody who is not in his class, the upper classes of the big shots in St. John' ·s, that it is against the rules,but we are not objecting to it, Mr. Speaker. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. 8003

December 2,1983 Tape No. 3648 ah-3 MR.SPEAKER (Aylward): The hon . President of the Council to that point of order. MR. MARSHALL: I know Your Honour will view that as being a nuisance point of order from a gentleman who is in the habit of raising such points of order, but the hon . Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn) is introducing a very important bill . The hon . Minister of Labour and Manpower,as he indicated in Question Period this morning ,is quite capable of responding without having to read anything as he is not doing now.

All the minister is doing is just using notes in the process of which he is making his speech. MR.SPEAKER: Order, please ! It has been ruled many tiznes 800 4

December 2, 1983 Tape 3649 PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : in this House that any hon. member is allowed to use notes while they are speaking. It is not permitted to read a speech, but anyone is allowed to use extensive notes~ and I-tanpower. MR. DINN: The hon. l-:l.inister of Labour Mr. Speaker, first of all let me say it is regrettable, I think 1that this piece of legislation, . if one looks at it,cuts down the Workers' Compensation Act by about two-thirds.

And it is a very good piece of law and it is something that is very technical in its content, and I think I would be remiss if I did not cover the points that need to be covered during the introduction of the bill. So, Mr. Speaker, perhaps before getting into the changes that are being introduced by this Act,it would be appropriate to briefly review the history of Workers' Compensation in Canada and give a short

summary of the system as we know it today. ·First of all, the Workers' Compensation system can be described rather briefly as a mandatory, no-fault, work injury insurance programme ._ which is funded totally by employers. It guarantees prompt payment of benefits to the victims of industrial injury and disease without litgation,and protects the employer from legal action. The Newfoundland system of Workers' Compensation is based on the same principles as the systems in all other provincial and territorial jurisdictions in Canada. Thus our system is part of what is commonly known as the Canadian sy~tem.

The Canadian system of Workers' Compensation is in many respects a work injury insurance programme that is unique in the world. The Canadian system was developed by Sir William Meredith of the Supreme Court of Ontario in the early 1900s and was formulated around certain basic principles. Briefly,these 8005

December 2, 1983 Tape 3649 PK - 2 MR. DINN: principles were that the compensation system must be,one,without fault; two , based on collective liability; three, funded by employers as an ordinary cost of operations; four, administered and adjudicated by an independent commission with exclusive jurisdiction by that commission; five, exclude recourse to the courts and,six; assure security of payment to the claimant.

Previous to the development of the system by Sir William Meredith, a worker could only obtain compensation for lost income as a result of an on-the­ job injury if he could prove fault on the part of the employer. This adversary system,based on the common law principle of individual liability,was also in effect in Newfoundland previous to 1951. The worker was required to prove his case before the courts and this involved costly litigations which was not always successful. In many cases the worker was not willing to take the legal action against the employer for fear of future recriminations.

The employe~ of course, had the resources to defend ~lf against 1~ actions by an employee and quite often,after protracted litigation, the employee ended up with no compensation at all. It should be noted here that in many countries this is still the case, including mas~ of the States of the United ·States where the compensation system is built around the litigation or the adversary system. Under our system the employee gave up the right to sue his employer;in return,the employee was assured of immediate compensation benefits.

The employer no longer had to defend himself against court actions by the employee who was seeking compensation. The employer and employee are both equally protected under our system. 8006

December 2, 1983 Tape 3649 PK - 3 MR. DINN ': Judge Meredith also saw that, in order for the system to work p:r;operly, the adjudication of . compensation matters should be removed entirely frotn the court system and placed in the hands of an independent judicial tribunal. This judicial tribunal is what is known as the .Worke:r;s' Compensation Board. Removing the jurisdiction from the courts to an independent tribunal allowed cases to b.e deternii.ned on their real merit and not on st ·rict legal precedent.

Further 1it meant that no decision was final, and by instituting an inquiry system the .re was no once-and-for'-all recovery since cases could be reopened and decisions altered if new evidence came to light with respect to the injury for which compensation was be ·ing . sought. It also,of couz:se 1 freed both parties from the courts and the trauma of long 1 drawn-out litigation procedures. By the time that Newfoundland entered Contederatian in l949,all of the other Canadian provinces had adopted a compensation system based on the Ontario model. 8007

December 2, 1983 Tape No. 3650 SD - 1 MR. DINN: When the Newfoundland system of Workers' Compensation was being developed,it was natural, I guess.at the time, that we do the same thing. Our act in 1951 was primarily centered around the Nova Scotian system of workers' Compensation. It was undoubtedly at the time as progressive as any legislation in the other jurisdictions in Canada. Since the original act was passed in 1951 1 there have been numerous amendments 1 sometimes as many as three in one year.

These amendments in the main dealt with benefits payable and the extension of coverage to certain groups who had not previously been covered by the legislation. While the changes throughout the years were clearly not dramatic ones in the context of the philosophy of the system or the method of administration, it appears that there were no fundamental changes in other provinces throughout that period of time.

It is significant to note 1 however,that the original concept of Workers' Compensa~ion,as outlined by the Ontario system in the 1900s,was to compensate for loss of income, or 'ilhat is termed today as wage loss compensation. However, for some unknown reason,perhaps because of the administrative complexit 'ies of truly adherinq to the wage loss compensation -.. -. --·· system 1 all of the boa-rds drifted it away from the strict wage loss concep~ --~nd paid on the basis of physical disability with little or no regard to the amount of wages lost caused by the disability.

Consequently 1 the workers' Compensation sytem in Canada had by the middle of the century become firrnlyentrenched into a concept of compensation on the basis of physical disability. However 1 in the mid'70s many of th~ jurisdictions across Canada began to question this sytem as to whether or not it was really the most appropriate form, since the basic concept of compensation is 1 and should be,a wage loss insurance programme. BOOB

December 2, 1983 Tape No. 3650 SD - 2 MR. DINN: Because our system was first introduced in the Province in the early 1950s 1 it was inevitable that we would follow the entrenched system then in place across Canada. Sasketchewan was the first province to proceed with positive action in bringing the \\:'orkers' Compensation programme back to it original concept of wage loss compensation. So it was in 1979 that we in the Province took the step of appointing the Chairman and the former Chairman of the Workers' Compensation Board, Dr. William May, to review our Workers' Compensation system.

And a year later, in September 1980 1 we set up a review committee which presented a report to go~ernment. And I might add, Mr. Speaker, it is -probabl~ one of the better reviews ever done on a compensation system in the world. It involved the members of the committee,and I want to pubicly thank them here in the House toda~ Dr. William May, Mr. Richard Fagan 1 who is a former member of the board, Mr. George Brown 1 who had worked for years with the Workers' Compensation system, Mr.

Donald Murphy,who is from my colleague's district in Grand Falls, I believe, and worked with Abitibi- Price and represented the employers, and Martin Saunders was the labour representative.

So they basically went about this Province and they also reviewed all the compensation systems in Canada and carne up with this Review Committee Report,which government took late in 1981, and th .en we went though. a long ,consultative process with the union representatives in the Province and the employers·' representatives in the Province and came up with what we see . . .. ----- . - .. . . -. ·-- ..... before us today, which. is a bill which, I think, number one, .-. . . --- :-- ~ = -· -- • . - • .::-.

""-- .... - - is easy to read, it is a good piece of legislation, and it bas .ically changes the Workers' Compensation system fairly dramatically in this Province. So, Mr. Speaker, when the committee finished its report and we did our extens ·ive review ,we also did an analysis of not only the 8009

December 2, 1983 Tape No. 3650 SD - 3 MR. DINN: Review Committee Report but the legislation that we had in effect at the time, and decided, because of the many amendments that took place oV'er the years since 1951 1· that what we needed was that law consolidated into a more readable and better piece of legis ·lation. And that took some time, and the board, .... ·- --.· --- along with the legislative draftsmen, I think have come up with a piece of legislation that I think we can all be proud of. 8010

December 2, 1983 Tape No . 3651 MJ - l MR. DINN: It is perhaps appropriate at this point to give a brief outline of the level of benefits that have been made available to injured workers through this system and compare them to what has happened over the years since the inception of the Workers' Compensation system in 1951. So, I have here page 10, which for han. member's purposes I can table if they wish, but it basically outlines, for exarnple,the maximum compensable earnings in 1951 were $3,000.

In other words,the maximum that a person could get in 1951 on a compensation system was 75 per cent of the $3,000 which was the maximum compensable earnings at the time. It is significant to note that in 1983 as a result of the change we made last year, the maximum compensable earnings today in Newfoundland is $45,500 1which is the largest compensable earnings level of any compensation system in Canada. As a matter of fact,the average in Canada is $28,000.

This has been a matter of discussion between, as I say, the groups in the Province, the employers• representatives and so on,and I want to just state what that really means. Of course, the other change that we made was that we changed it from a 75 per cent of gross e~rnings to a 90 per cent o= net earning.

What the $45,500 means is that a person who works, for example in ~ur offshore fishery , who makes considerably more than, say,$15,000, they could run in the range of even $50,000 a year, gets injured on the job or gets totally disabled on the job,he can get,through the compensation syste~ almost a total replacement of his wages if he is completely disabled." The difference between,for example, here and,say,the Province of Ontario 1 which has a maximum compensable earnings level of $28,000 - and they use the 90 per cent of net - is that guy who makes the $50,000 is automatically reduced dramatically to about $20,000 a year 8011

December 2, 1983 Tape No. 3651 MJ - 2 MR. DINN: so that it really is not, even in the other provinces, in the other jurisdictions today, and Saskatchewan particularly - it really is not a wage loss compensation system. So what we are talking about in wage loss is is that in the other systems 1where they set the maximum compensable earnings level at say $26,000 or $2B,OOO,that about 60 per cent of the population in those jurisdictions who do get injured will get wage loss compensation; the other 40 per cent,from our determination our system will