March 30, 1977 ALBERTA HANSARD 553 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ALBERTA Title: Wednesday, March 30, 1977 2:30 p.m. [The House met at 2:30 p.m.] PRAYERS [Mr. Speaker in the Chair] head: INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 26 The Motor Vehicle Administration Amendment Act, 1977 MR. FARRAN: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to introduce Bill 26, The Motor Vehicle Administration Amend­ ment Act, 1977. The main principle of the bill is to further clarify the law in regard to mopeds, which was the subject of an interim amendment last year.

Very light-weight motor-assisted bicycles, declared last year not to be subject to certificates of registra­ tion since they were more analogous to bicycles than motorcycles, are now clearly defined as bicycles for all licensing and registration purposes. A new category of mopeds is introduced which will cover the heavier motor-assisted bicycles, more ana­ logous to motorcycles, up to 120 pounds in weight.

The bill also brings conformity with practices in neighboring provinces to use of dealer plates, clarifies the wording regarding traffic offence records of juveniles, and limits the power of a driver control board to vary a court suspension of driving privileges for offences under provincial statutes for which man­ datory suspension does not apply. [Leave granted; Bill 26 read a first time] Bill 27 The Mobile Equipment Licensing Amendment Act, 1977 MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to intro­ duce Bill 27, The Mobile Equipment Licensing Amendment Act, 1977.

This bill allows the cities to participate in the revenue generated from the licens­ ing of mobile construction equipment effective January 1, 1978. [Leave granted; Bill 27 read a first time] head: TABLING RETURNS AND REPORTS MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, I wish to file two copies of a letter, dated March 28, 1977, from the hon. Premier to the Prime Minister with regard to the proposed move of the Canadian Airborne Regiment. head: INTRODUCTION OF SPECIAL GUESTS DR. WEBBER: Mr.

Speaker, today in the members gallery we have 41 guides, cubs, scouts, and brow­ nies from the Parkdale area in Calgary Bow, as well as the St. Andrews area in Calgary Foothills. They are with their leaders Deanna Downton, Leona Brind- ley, Betty Spurgeon, Evelyn Corbett, Sid Brewer, and Barry Horton. I would ask them to rise and be welcomed to the Assembly. MR. FOSTER: Mr. Speaker, I take pleasure in intro­ ducing to you this afternoon, and to members of this Assembly, 30 students from Red Deer who are in the public gallery.

They are currently attending the finest public college in the province of Alberta, Red Deer College. They are accompanied on this occasion by Mr. Ed Kamps. I would ask them to rise and be recognized by the House. DR. PAPROSKI: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to introduce to you, and through you to the members of the Assem­ bly, some 30 students from the Northern Alberta Institute of Technology in the constituency of Edmon­ ton Kingsway. Mr. Speaker, I'd like to welcome them to the Assembly. I would ask them to rise now and be recognized by the House. head: ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Oil Sands Development MR. CLARK: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to direct the first question to the Minister of Energy and Natural Resources. It really flows from the minister's com­ ments in the committee meeting last night with regard to a third tar sands plant in Alberta. My initial question to the minister: [will] the minister indicate to the House the types of discussions going on between the government of Alberta and the government of Canada with regard to the broad parameters of a third tar sands plant? At what level are the discussions taking place? MR. GETTY: Mr. Speaker, I believe I've discussed this in the House before.

The committee is at the deputy minister level and other officials. They are discussing the various components necessary to bring a third oil sands plant into production. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, is the minister in a position to confirm that the timetable the two governments are looking at for a report from this group would be the middle part of this year? Is it a fair assessment that if we're going to continue the momentum in the tar sands, a final decision on a third plant would have to be made by the end of '77? MR. GETTY: Mr.

Speaker, I assume that all the infor­ mation given to the committee last night is also contained in Hansard. Therefore it's difficult to rephrase exactly and confirm things I said then. But I mentioned that the federal government is very anxious to see aggressive development of a third oil sands plant. They would hope we could have a report from the committee by the end of June. As a result of that report, they would hope a definitive decision

554 ALBERTA HANSARD March 30, 1977 could be reached as to a start or commitment to a third oil sands plant by the end of the year. That is a desire on their part. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, following along on the same question, what is the position of the govern­ ment of Alberta with regard to a third plant? What kind of timetable is the government looking at? MR. GETTY: Mr. Speaker, we are looking to balance the Alberta interest with the Canadian interest.

I can't prejudge either the information that will come out of the committee's recommendations; or how the government, either in cabinet committee or in cabinet, will in fact assess the results of that report; or how I think we might then handle subsequent negotiations with the federal government or with a private company which presumably would be involved in the third plant as well. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary question to the minister. Is it the position of the government of Alberta that a basic decision on a third plant needs to be made by the end of 1977, as opposed to the federal position?

MR. GETTY: No, Mr. Speaker, it is not. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, one further supplementary question to the minister on the same matter. It deals with the incentives and the kinds of incentives that at least the federal government has been talking about and perhaps is in a position to do something about. Has the federal government indicated that it's pre­ pared to consider seriously a commitment to have the price of tar sands oil above the world price? Is that one of the incentives the federal government is pre­ pared to consider seriously? MR. GETTY: Mr.

Speaker, I have no trouble dealing with matters raised in negotiations by our govern­ ment, but I do have some trouble in speaking for the federal government when they have not indicated to me that they would like to have public the information we are discussing. I've noticed that the Hon. Mr. Gillespie has not been discussing this matter publicly. Therefore I don't think I should be presumptuous, to express publicly those things he is discussing with us. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, can I rephrase the question to the minister.

Have there been discussions be­ tween the Alberta minister and his officials and the federal minister or his officials with regard to the possible federal government incentive to have the price of tar sands oil placed above the world price, as a means of encouraging investment or encouraging companies to go ahead? MR. GETTY: I think the answer would have to be the same as to the last question, Mr. Speaker. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the hon. minister.

Has the government of Alberta, quite apart from any negotiations with Ottawa, taken a view with respect to a price above the world price for tar sands oil or oil sands oil, as a needed incentive to stimulate the development of a third project? MR. GETTY: No, Mr. Speaker. Mobile Home Park — Airdrie MR. CLARK: I would like to direct the second question to the Minister of Housing and Public Works. Can he indicate to the House what progress has been made with regard to the Alberta Housing Corporation mobile home park at Airdrie? MR. YURKO: Mr. Speaker, considerable progress.

Pregrading is 72 per cent complete, sanitary sewers are 11 per cent complete, and storm sewers are 7 per cent complete. The work was started again about three weeks ago and is progressing. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, is the minister in a position to indicate what problems the Housing Corporation ran into that they weren't able to meet their target date of the end of last year for the first homes in the trailer park, as was indicated by the minister in the House, I guess during the spring session last year? What were the major problems? MR. YURKO: Well, Mr. Speaker, the usual problems a developer has to face.

Indeed, the Alberta Housing Corporation is a developer in this case. There were delays in terms of approvals. During the course of the winter there were some delays because of weather. The work was suspended because it was pregrading surface work. Work was suspended for awhile but, as I indicated, the work is now in full progress. Phase one, which I believe is 413 units, is scheduled for completion by October 31, 1977. MR. KIDD: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Could the minister advise whether the town of Airdrie has completely approved and co-operated during this mobile home subdivision construction? MR.

YURKO: Mr. Speaker, the town of Airdrie has certainly approved of the project and has co-operated with Alberta Housing in every possible way. I should point out that the project is certainly of great benefit to the town in that a water supply has been brought into the town. The new mobile home subdivision will assist the town considerably in terms of sharing the costs for the sewer line running to Calgary. Other considerable benefits are accruing to the town of Airdrie in connection with the mobile home subdivision. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary question to the minister.

What target date does the minister or the Alberta Housing Corporation now have? When will mobile homes be available on phase one of the Alberta Housing Corporation lot? MR. YURKO: Mr. Speaker, the lots can be sold at almost any time, but the board of directors set up a fairly elaborate procedure in terms of the manner in which lots will be allocated and sold. This procedure is being put together in a brochure which will be issued within the next week or two and will outline specifics of the manner in which the lots will be allocated and sold.

March 30, 1977 ALBERTA HANSARD 555 MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, to the minister. What tar­ get date does the Alberta Housing Corporation have for individuals to expect to either apply to the Housing Corporation or acquire lots at Airdrie? MR. YURKO: As I said, Mr. Speaker, a brochure is coming out very shortly. As soon as the brochure is released, an advertising campaign will be undertaken to indicate that the lots are for sale, then applications for purchase of the lots will be taken. I expect this will happen within the next two to three weeks.

I might say that one reason for the delay has been in naming the subdivision. There has been some difference in opinion on what the name of the subdi­ vision should be, and this has held up the brochure for a week or two. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary question to the minister. What plans are now in motion for the pedestrian crossover for Highway 2? MR. YURKO: Mr. Speaker, regarding the overpass, the permits for application for an overpass have gone to the department of highways, and as yet these have not been returned to the department and to the Alber­ ta Housing Corporation.

But I expect these permits will be back from the department of highways shortly, and before too long work should be in progress in this area. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, is it the position of the government that the overpass for pedestrians will be finished by this fall? MR. YURKO: Mr. Speaker, that is certainly our intent. Rent Control MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Attorney General. It's a follow-up to a question yes­ terday regarding cases where landlords are raising rents by changing from a monthly rate to a weekly rate.

I wonder if the Attorney General could advise whether he has assessed that matter and has any further information. MR. FOSTER: Mr. Speaker, I have not yet done that assessment. I'm not personally aware of the circum­ stances under which that tenancy arrangement is being changed, nor am I currently aware of the capac­ ity in the law for that to be done unilaterally on almost an immediate basis. But I'll have a look at it if you're concerned. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary to the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs.

Could the minister indicate to the Assembly whether he has received any further information regarding proposed rent increases and/or urban vacancy rates in the province of Alberta, in light of comments of the southern Alberta rent regulations directory that indi­ cate there have been hundreds of calls? MR. HARLE: Mr. Speaker, it has been brought to my attention by officials — and we're also keeping a check on our own mail — that some considerable number of units have been affected by notices of increases. As of March 28 — and I might say, Mr.

Speaker, that I received this material yesterday after­ noon after I had left the House, and couldn't respond to the member who asked the question yesterday — some 1,557 units had received firm information about increases. They ranged all the way from 14 per cent to 37 per cent. I might say that the officials in the rent regulation office have been asked to keep me up to date with information that comes to their attention. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary to the minister.

Does the minister have sufficient information at this time to decide whether or not rent control legislation will be introduced prior to the end of this month? MR. HARLE: Mr. Speaker, I can only say what I have said on earlier occasions in this Assembly. The gov­ ernment will be making its decision in April and of course will look forward to receiving any information citizens bring to its attention. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, supplementary to the minister.

Could the minister indicate the reasons the decision has to be made in April rather than prior to the end of the month, with the sufficient information he indicates? MR. SPEAKER: It would seem to me we're ploughing a furrow that has been ploughed about three times already. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, supplementary to the minister. Is the minister gathering further informa­ tion, and what type of information is required to make the decision in April? MR. HARLE: Mr. Speaker, I've said the officials have been asked to gather as much material as possible.

I might say there has been a news release by HUDAC, the Housing and Urban Development Association, which urges landlords in this province not to issue large and unnecessary rental increase notices. MR. NOTLEY: Supplementary question then, Mr. Speaker. Will the minister's target date in April be before the Easter recess on April 6? MR. HARLE: Mr. Speaker, I've said in April. I can't put it any closer than that at this time. MR. KUSHNER: Mr. Speaker, I've received two inquiries today. Is the minister aware of any abuse of rent control, in regard to a black market being practised? MR. HARLE: Mr.

Speaker, I don't know what the hon. member might be alluding to by the term "black market". I will say, however, that provisions in The Temporary Rent Regulation Measures Act make cer­ tain practices an offence against the statute. Whenever these are discovered and brought to the attention of officials on the Rent Regulation Appeal Board, prosecutions are entered upon. MR. KUSHNER: Supplementary question, Mr. Speak­ er. Has the minister had any inquiries [where] the

556 ALBERTA HANSARD March 30, 1977 citizens involved do not want to reveal or get involved? MR. HARLE: Mr. Speaker, I suppose that's one of the big problems in rent control throughout the world. Whenever you put in rent controls you find, notwith­ standing the good intentions of the legislation, that many tenants are afraid to bring their complaints to the attention of officials so that something can be done about them. Smoky Lake/Thorhild Boundaries DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to address my ques­ tion to the Minister of Municipal Affairs.

I'd like to know when the minister can report on how soon the minister or the cabinet will take action on recommen­ dations by the Municipal and School Boundaries commission calling for amalgamation of the counties of Thorhild and Smoky Lake. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, the Executive Council has dealt with the question of the boundaries, and I believe the orders in council should be available tomorrow.

With respect to the counties of Thorhild and Smoky Lake, I've requested that a plebiscite be taken to have a feel for local automony, to have a feel for that recommendation of the School Boundaries Advisory Committee which of course called for a merger. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister. Will the results of the plebiscite be binding on the minister? DR. BUCK: It depends on whether he likes them. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, we are always interested in the views of the two municipalities. Naturally in this case we have a unique situation because they are counties.

We have rural and urban representation on the two committees, the school committee and the municipal committee, and there­ fore will have to weigh very carefully in a plebiscite the distinction between the rural and urban reflections. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister. When the minister talks about a plebiscite, will the people in the towns and villages within the two rural jurisdictions have an opportunity to vote on the desirability? MR. JOHNSTON: That is correct, Mr. Speaker. MR. CLARK: Mr.

Speaker, one further supplementary question to the minister; it must have slipped the minister's mind, I'm sure. Is the government pre­ pared to give a commitment to the people in the two affected areas that it will follow the wishes of the plebiscite? Will that be binding? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, the hon. Leader of the Opposition is requesting that I prejudge the results of that plebiscite. DR. BUCK: No he isn't. MR. JOHNSTON: Of course we will not view that until we have the results of the vote. DR. BUCK: We'll wait and see what the results are before we decide what to do. MR. JAMISON: Supplementary, Mr.

Speaker, to the minister. When the minister requests a plebiscite in the two municipalities, a cost will be involved. I was wondering if the government was planning on picking up the tab for this or will the cost be on these two municipalities? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I anticipate that the costs of printing the ballots will be borne by the Department of Municipal Affairs. Natural Gas Supplies MR. PURDY: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to address a ques­ tion to the Minister of Energy and Natural Resources.

On a couple of occasions the minister indicated that we have enough natural gas supply in the province of Alberta for 30 years. But now the National Energy Board states that we need either new fields within six years or the Mackenzie Valley pipeline to be built. Does the statement made by the National Energy Board of Canada hold true for the minister's statement? MR. GETTY: Mr. Speaker, I believe the hon. member is referring to the National Energy Board's predictions as to reserves for Canada as distinct from reserves for the foreseeable future use of the province of Alberta.

The two comments he referred to are not in conflict. Alberta has all foreseeable future needs provided for, for 30 years, and a surplus in addition to that. I understand the National Energy Board's findings, and I do have the reports, are that by approximately 1981 — but there is some argument that it could be 1985 — Canada as a whole will require additional natural gas supplies. MR. PURDY: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

Has the minister had representation from Westcoast, Foot­ hills, or Alberta Gas Trunk Line regarding alternatives offered by the three companies for the building of the proposed pipeline from the Mackenzie Valley delta through the province of Alberta? MR. GETTY: No, Mr. Speaker, not in terms of submis­ sions requesting anything from the government of Alberta. Those companies have gone out of their way to keep the Department of Energy and Natural Resources advised of their proposals which are pres­ ently being considered by both the Berger commis­ sion and the National Energy Board. MR.

PURDY: Further supplementary, Mr. Speaker, to the minister. Will the minister be making any repre­ sentation to the United States Federal Power Com­ mission regarding the proposed route? MR. GETTY: No, Mr. Speaker. The matter is really a federal decision.

March 30, 1977 ALBERTA HANSARD 557 Education Objectives MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the hon. Minister of Education. In view of the debate on education that occurred at a big convention in Ed­ monton last weekend, is the minister more deter­ mined than ever to move forward by emphasizing the basic three R's in our schools and classrooms? MR. KOZIAK: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to thank the hon. Member for Drumheller for drawing to all members' attention the very useful policy conference that was held in the Macdonald Hotel on Saturday dealing with basic education.

The discussion was very useful, and many points of view were brought forward including the point that the educational system we now have is an excellent one that may require certain fine tuning to make it even better. Now, the hon. members of the Assembly will of course appreciate that on the Order Paper is a notice of motion for debate by which all members of this Assembly can express their views on what the goals and objectives of education should be, and what priorities should be attributed to certain of these, or all of them for that matter.

I'll be awaiting with great interest the input and points of view that will be expressed here by members of this Assembly. I hope those points of view will correctly reflect the views of their constituents. Tax Discounters MR. STROMBERG: Mr. Speaker, a question to the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. In light of the fact that the minister's office takes great pride in advertising against shysters and crooks, I wonder if the minister has given consideration to advertising the fact that Student Legal Services and CN Credit Union are offering non-profit tax discounting? MR. HARLE: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I'm sure the repre­ sentation today was a pretty good advertisement for it. MR. STROMBERG: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Further to my question of yesterday, will the minister consider for next year enclosing with all Alberta income tax forms a separate notice cautioning against tax rebaters? MR. HARLE: Mr. Speaker, I would have to say that any amendment to the income tax forms is a matter that would relate to the responsibilities of the portfo­ lio of the Provincial Treasurer, and in fact would relate to agreements reached between the federal and provincial governments. MR. STROMBERG: Supplementary, Mr.

Speaker. I think my question stated "enclosing" with income tax forms, not amending the Income Tax Act. MR. HARLE: Well, Mr. Speaker, it's my understanding that the federal government sends out the income tax forms. Postsecondary Institutions MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct this ques­ tion to the hon. Minister of Advanced Education and Manpower, concerning recent reports about remarks the minister had made pertaining to the growth of the universities in the province of Alberta.

Does the government of Alberta see a definite ceiling for the University of Alberta and the other universities in the province? DR. HOHOL: Mr. Speaker, I would respond by reflect­ ing the proposition that working together with the major institutions — indeed all of them, colleges and technical institutes — we do in fact use historical precedents in the growth and development of institu­ tions and the kind of service they can provide to students.

We arrive at some mutual understanding of the growth and development of people within certain sizes of institutions, and in quite a specific way relate that to what the institution is intended to do. We do believe, and the institutions agree with us, that there is an upper number. It differs from function to func­ tion. But there has to be some limit to the growth of institutions if individuals are to remain individuals within the large population enrolments. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the hon. minister.

Bearing in mind the minister's answer, is he in a position to outline to the Assembly the approximate limits at this point in time to the enrolments in the three universities in the province? DR. HOHOL: No, Mr. Speaker. This is something we're working on with the institutions at the present time, and in some months ahead will be prepared to give a tentative and somewhat interim report. It is something we are not turning our backs on, but we are working on it because we believe that the size of institutions relates very directly to the kind of service students receive. MR. NOTLEY: Mr.

Speaker, a further supplementary question to the hon. minister. The minister made reference in the reports to surveys on student enrol­ ment projections. My question to the minister, Mr. Speaker, is whether or not those enrolment projec­ tions were based on the assumption of greater or lesser accessibility to postsecondary institutions in the province, bearing in mind the drop and flattening out the minister predicted. DR. HOHOL: I believe the particular study to which I referred did not speak to the notion of accessibility. As I recall the study, I think the author assumed that spaces in fact would be available.

But he discerned there would be a shift in the kind of education and the places in education that students would find themselves at. He saw a declining enrolment to the mid :1980s, then a slight rise, then a flattening off. But secondly, and significantly, he saw a shift in the institutions which a certain percentage of students would attend. Thirdly, he was very clear that the age of students would continue to rise.

That is to say, people have come back a second or third time to one or another kind of postsecondary institution for updat­ ing or upgrading, or indeed entering for the first time for professional or other kinds of occupational training.

558 ALBERTA HANSARD March 30, 1977 MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister. Were any assumptions made in the survey the minister referred to as to tuition increases or changes? Further, beyond the two-tier question is the government considering any changes in tuition fees or the percentage of the operating costs of universities now borne by the tuition fees in Alberta? DR. HOHOL: To the best of my recollection, and I can check the study, I do not recall the author addressing himself to the matter of tuition fees. He assumed accessibility quite apart from fees.

At the same time I announced the fee differential, Mr. Speaker, I did say that we would put into place a significant committee of Albertans to examine the costs of education that students have to bear at different institutions taking different programs. Those costs would not be solely those of tuition fees but would include tuition fees. They would also include transportation, housing, clothes, all the things students have to face when they go to school in one institution or another. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary question.

Is the minister in a position to outline for the Assembly when that committee will be in a posi­ tion to make its report and when we'll be looking at some hard proposals? DR. HOHOL: Yes, Mr. Speaker. I feel very clear on this proposition that the implementation of the fees has to be in place before a committee begins its work on all the costs of education. If that weren't the case, in my judgment there would be confusion on the work of the committee. It could be viewed as a committee working solely on the notion of fees for international students. That wouldn't be the case.

The case would be on all the costs including fees. So next fall when all the foreign and domestic fees are in place, we'll also have in place a committee to look at the costs of education to the students. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, one final supplementary question to the minister. Bearing in mind the com­ ments the minister has made about changing enrol­ ment patterns, are there are any plans at this time to develop a campus for Athabasca University? DR. HOHOL: No there are not, Mr. Speaker. It will continue, at least in the foreseeable future, as an open university. DR. PAPROSKI: Supplementary, Mr.

Speaker, to the minister. Regarding the size of the university, I wonder if the minister would indicate whether he has studies which indicate that depersonalization or impersonalization need not occur because of the large numbers in a university. DR. HOHOL: Mr. Speaker, there are studies on this, not only in the education circumstance but in the military, industrial, and in institutions like hospitals. Some studies indicate no, depersonalization does not occur. But it quickly goes on to say that all the elements and circumstances would have to be ideal.

It would be difficult to manage the depersonalization past a certain point. It varies from enterprise to enterprise. Rental Accommodation MR. MANDEVILLE: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the hon. Minister of Housing and Public Works. Could the minister indicate whether his department is giv­ ing any consideration to new programs to alleviate the shortage of rental accommodation in Alberta? I appreciate the programs MAP and CHIP, but are any other programs under study? MR. YURKO: Mr.

Speaker, as the hon. member would realize the appropriation for CHIP was $75 million this year, and the appropriation for MAP was doubled to $20 million this year. Indeed, the number of senior citizens' self-contained apartments was increased to 1,219 this year, and 900 units of public housing were approved. The total package in the budget this year in connection with rental accommodation is quite substantive. MR. MANDEVILLE: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.

Could the minister indicate whether he has directed officials of Alberta Housing Corporation to investigate further methods of stimulating the con­ struction of rental accommodation for Alberta? MR. YURKO: Mr. Speaker, there are a number of new programs. For example, the residential land devel­ opment fund will apply to the possibility of building apartments in connection with purchasing land in the city of Edmonton and Calgary and other urban cen­ tres. Indeed, I announced a new program in connec­ tion with building senior citizens' accommodation by the private sector which is rental accommodation.

I can't think of any other initiatives at this time, but we're always thinking of new initiatives. Snowstorm — Southern Alberta MR. GOGO: Mr. Speaker, a question to the Minister of Agriculture. Could the minister indicate to the House the degree of livestock losses in southern Alberta due to last weekend's storm? MR. MOORE: No, I'm sorry I can't, Mr. Speaker. I would expect that perhaps it would be a week before we'd have a very accurate figure in that regard. Committee for an Independent Canada MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct my ques­ tion to the Minister of Energy and Natural Resources. Mr.

Minister, are you aware that the Committee for an Independent Canada is suggesting that the federal government take over Alberta's undeveloped oil sands and the heavy oil production? Are you in favor of such? MR. SPEAKER: Would the hon. member please use the ordinary parliamentary form. MR. GETTY: Mr. Speaker, I've been aware that the Committee for an Independent Canada does express a point of view in national debates regarding foreign ownership, and I respect their right in that regard.

But when they start to suggest the federal govern­ ment take over resources that belong to the people of Alberta I find their views, placed in the gentlest of

March 30, 1977 ALBERTA HANSARD 559 terms, objectionable, ridiculous, and I have to ques­ tion their motives. Smoking in Public Places MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Social Services and Community Health. Could the minister indicate whether the government or her department has given consideration to legisla­ tion banning smoking in public places? MISS HUNLEY: Mr.

Speaker, we have not dealt with it as a government, but I understand if the session lasts long enough all this Assembly will have the opportu­ nity to debate it when they consider the private member's bill on the Order Paper. DR. BUCK: You mean nine months. School Curriculum — Canadian Content MR. CLARK: I'd like to direct a question to the hon. Member for Lac La Biche-McMurray as the govern­ ment's representative on the Curriculum Policies Board.

Has the Curriculum Policies Board made any recommendation to the Minister of Education on the question of infusing more Canadian content into Al­ berta school curriculums? MR. TESOLIN: Mr. Speaker, following the usual pro­ cedure, I would like to pass the question to the Minister of Education. MR. KOZIAK: Mr. Speaker, the matter of the entire social studies program is one the Curriculum Policies Board will be reviewing.

In addition to that, I have indicated publicly that the Curriculum Policies Board will be reviewing the 13 units of Canadian studies presently being developed by school boards and teachers throughout the province. They will be look­ ing at each of those units, which are in the vicinity of four to eight weeks in length, to determine whether or not those units should be allowed within the school jurisdiction either voluntarily or to form a compulsory part of the social studies program to be used by all Alberta students in that particular grade.

As these units are developed and completed, I expect to receive the advice of the Curriculum Policies Board in that regard. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister. Is it the minister's intention to have any changes made in the social studies curriculum, with an emphasis on Canadian content, prior to the September 1977 school term? MR. KOZIAK: Mr. Speaker, at this particular time it would be difficult to indicate that in fact there will be any changes in that respect.

Because of the lead time required for teachers throughout the province, I don't think the 13 units of Canadian studies I referred to will be in a completed form in sufficient time to have that implemented on a compulsory basis for the fall of 1977, though it may well be that on a voluntary basis these units will be available by that time.

However, I don't wish to indicate or suggest that that will be the case, because I know the Curriculum Policies Board has a very heavy agenda before it, particularly during the course of the next number of months when it will be considering the goals and objectives of education and the priorities that should be attributed to those goals. As a result of that very important and heavy agenda, it may have to delay some of its other considerations beyond the normal time lag. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister.

Has the minister indicated to the board his priority for the board either dealing with the question of greater emphasis on Canadian content or the question of the overall goal of education? In other words, which area has the minister placed highest priority on to the board? MR. KOZIAK: Mr. Speaker, definitely the goals and objectives of education are the highest priority, because those are the matters this Assembly will be dealing with. As was indicated in the Speech from the Throne, the advice of that particular body would be useful in our deliberations here.

The goals and objectives of education cover everything that is done in basic education, social studies being one element of what flows from the decision on the goals and objectives. So we are all aware that the goals and objectives are singularly the most important decision we'll be making in education this year. I've asked the Curriculum Policies Board to address all its energies at this particular time to those goals and objectives. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, a further question to the minister.

Has the minister also asked the Curriculum Policies Board for its recommendations on how to implement a greater emphasis on Canadian content? MR. KOZIAK: Mr. Speaker, as I indicated in response to an earlier supplementary question, that of course is one of the matters the Curriculum Policies Board looked at initially. But because of the priority that has been placed on their workload [it] may have to be delayed somewhat, though the development of the actual units will not be delayed.

These are units being developed by 13 individual school boards throughout the province using the resources of the teachers employed by those districts, in some cases parents and students within the districts. The units of studies include not only print media but audio­ visual media, material which would be very useful. Now as I say, perhaps many of these decisions can be developed coterminously. However, the priority at this particular time has to be the goals and objectives. MR. SPEAKER: Might this be the final supplementary on this topic. MR. CLARK: Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary question to the Minister of Advanced Education and Manpow­ er. I would ask the minister if he's had discussions with the academic heads of the universities or the deans of the university faculties of education to dis­ cuss ways in which these institutions can better prepare teachers to handle Canadian content studies in an objective and, shall we say, very responsible way. DR. HOHOL: Mr. Speaker, the response fairest to the institutions would be that they are presently and have

560 ALBERTA HANSARD March 30, 1977 indeed set up structures within the universities to deal with the whole notion of Canadian content in universities. They are working hard at it. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I could simply ask the minister if he has had discussions with the universities? That was the question. DR. HOHOL: Well, not on the specific notion of how they can train teachers to do a better job of teaching Canadian content. But I have discussed with them the notion of Canadian content. Matrimonial Law MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct this ques­ tion to the hon.

Attorney General and ask whether or not the government is giving special consideration to the problem of ownership and possession of the matrimonial home, apart from the general question of matrimonial property. MR. FOSTER: Mr. Speaker, the question of the ownership of the matrimonial home is of course an integral aspect of the whole question of matrimonial law and matrimonial property generally. I think the question was raised earlier in the House by the Leader of the Opposition.

I indicated that the ques­ tion of this government's policy with respect to changes in the law of matrimonial property was before the Alberta caucus. MR. CLARK: Before the government caucus. MR. FOSTER: Before the Alberta government caucus. As a matter of interest, Mr. Speaker, it was a subject of very considerable interest and discussion at the recent meeting of the Alberta Progressive Conservative Party at the Hotel Macdonald. A ses­ sion of men and women and an extremely interesting debate . . . MR. SPEAKER: Possibly the hon. minister is going beyond the scope of the question. MR. FOSTER: Perhaps I am, Mr.

Speaker. But per­ haps I could conclude by saying that the matter is of even more interest to the members of the govern­ ment caucus. I expect it will continue to be discussed there, and I . . . MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister is persisting in that direction. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the hon. minister. What is the government doing with the specific recommendation of the Institute of Law Research and Reform dealing with introduction of legislation concerning the possession of the matrimonial home?

To be more specific, that it should remain with the spouse who has the children is a specific recommendation from the Institute of Law Research and Reform. What is the government doing with that, apart from the broader question of the overall issue? MR FOSTER: Well of course, Mr. Speaker, if we're dealing with a situation where one spouse has died and there is question as to the entitlement of the surviving spouse and children to the matrimonial home, that would follow in line anyway under The Dower Act. Without getting into the various aspects of matri­ monial law, I think it should rest on this basis, Mr.

Speaker: there will be a response from the govern­ ment in due course both to the institute's report and to a number of briefs, comments, and submissions made by many individuals, including opposition members. I think the opportunity will present itself at some time in the not too distant future to discuss all aspects of matrimonial law in the Legislature. I know a private member's bill is on the Order Paper, and perhaps we can have a good discussion of it then. MR. NOTLEY: One final supplementary question, in view of the minister's initial answer.

In reports at­ tributed to the minister several months ago in the city of Lethbridge that he was having some difficulty explaining this question of matrimonial property . . . MR. SPEAKER: Would the hon. member please come directly to the question, if it is a question. MR. NOTLEY: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I certainly wanted the minister to know the background to the question. My question really to the hon. minister, in view of the reports attributed to him that he's having difficulty convincing his caucus members and explaining the subject to them . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. NOTLEY: My question, Mr.

Speaker, directly to the hon. minister: is he getting any closer to persuad­ ing them and getting them to see the light? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. DR. BUCK: They'll never see the light. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Business Devel­ opment and Tourism would like to supplement an answer, if the Assembly agrees. HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. Syncrude Purchasing Policy MR. DOWLING: Mr. Speaker, yesterday the hon. Member for Clover Bar asked a question regarding the unsuccessful bid by a Fort Saskatchewan com­ pany to participate in a particular phase of construc­ tion of the Syncrude project.

I believe the hon. member was referring to a prod­ uct called Micro-Lok, which is not an approved prod­ uct or a product preferred for that particular phase of construction. However, the Syncrude organization indicated a willingness to consider its use in the project. They did this in the hope they would find it considerably cheaper, which it was not. They also found it was not an acceptable product because it does not meet their minimum specification for insula­ tion density, which is 5.5 pounds per cubic foot. Lastly, Mr.

Speaker, Syncrude's purchasing policy is based on Alberta first meeting the specifications,

March 30. 1977 ALBERTA HANSARD 561 followed by price, availability, and source of supply, in that order. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: May the hon. Member for Edmonton Highlands revert to Introduction of Special Guests? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. head: INTRODUCTION OF SPECIAL GUESTS (reversion) MR. KING: I thank the members of the House, Mr. Speaker. It's a happy coincidence today — having had a class from the best public college in the prov­ ince, introduced by the hon.

Attorney General; and the best institute of technology in the province, from the constituency of Edmonton Kingsway — that I am now able to introduce to the House a class from the best private college in the province. We have seated in the members gallery 18 political science students from Concordia College, who are accompanied this afternoon by their instructor Dr. Dua. I would like hon. members to appreciate that among their number is a daughter of the Minister of Business Development and Tourism, Lori Dowling.

Would they rise, please, to be recognized by the Assembly. head: GOVERNMENT BILLS AND ORDERS (Second Reading) Bill 3 The Appropriation (Interim Supply) Act, 1977 MR. LEITCH: Mr. Speaker, I move second reading of Bill No. 3, The Appropriation (Interim Supply) Act, 1977. [Motion carried; Bill 3 read a second time] MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, I move you do now leave the Chair and the Assembly resolve itself into Committee of the Whole to consider Bill No. 3. [Motion carried] head: GOVERNMENT BILLS AND ORDERS (Committee of the Whole) [Dr. McCrimmon in the Chair] MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Committee of the Whole As­ sembly will now come to order. Bill 3 The Appropriation (Interim Supply) Act, 1977 MR. CHAIRMAN: Are there any comments, questions, or amendments to be offered with respect to any sections of this bill? [Title and

preamble agreed to] MR. LEITCH; Mr. Chairman, I move that Bill No. 3 be reported. [Motion carried] MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Chairman, I move the committee rise, report progress, and beg leave to sit again. [Motion carried] [Mr. Speaker in the Chair] DR. McCRIMMON: Mr. Speaker, the Committee of the Whole Assembly has had under consideration Bill No. 3, begs to report the same, and asks leave to sit again. MR. SPEAKER: Having heard the report and the re­ quest for leave to sit again, do you all agree? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. head: GOVERNMENT MOTIONS (Committee of Supply) [Dr. McCrimmon in the Chair] MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Committee of Supply will come to order. Department of Agriculture MR. CHAIRMAN: We're on Vote 2, Production Assis­ tance, 2.2, Irrigation, $4,414,050. Ref. No. 2.2 MR. MANDEVILLE: Mr. Chairman, I would like the minister to comment on irrigation. In the event a new project is coming in — and I'm thinking of the V — V, who have a permit to pump out of the Red Deer River for 9,500 acres — would they qualify for any of this assistance under the irrigation grants on this project on Red Deer River? MR. MOORE: Mr. Chairman, I'm not completely famil­ iar with the aspects of that particular proposal.

But I would expect they would not, in that the dollars the Department of Agriculture is utilizing from the herit­ age savings trust fund are being allocated mainly through the existing irrigation districts, partly for re­ habilitation and partly for expansion. But the works carried out do not relate to any private landholdings. In other words, once an individual is on his own land his method of distributing water — whether by wheel system, pivot system, or canal — is his own responsi­ bility.

I would expect that the V — V Ranch proposal would be one on which they would have to pay 100 per cent of the costs after the water leaves the river. MR. MANDEVILLE: One further question. The minis­ ter did indicate, Mr. Chairman, that part of the money

562 ALBERTA HANSARD March 30, 1977 was going to be used for existing irrigation districts and some would be used for the expansion of dis­ tricts. Has the minister a ballpark figure on the amount of money that would be used in this vote for expansion of irrigation districts? MR MOORE: Well, in this particular vote really $2 million is involved with direct grants to irrigation dis­ tricts, which was a carry-over from before the deci­ sion was made to expend $200 million over 10 years on irrigation.

I would have to say that that grant is being utilized in much the same way as the grants provided to the irrigation districts from the heritage savings trust fund which, members will recall, amounts to $9 million this year under the bill passed last fall.

In that regard, the irrigation districts submit annual­ ly a project proposal that involves both upgrading of existing facilities, plus expansion, or intensification as they prefer to call it, wherein certain lands that are now within the irrigation districts and are not under water are brought under water by the utilization of these dollars and the heritage savings trust fund dollars. I don't have the figures with me as to what they intend to do in 1977. Certainly a fair amount of new land will be brought under irrigation.

But to my knowledge all of it will be lands which presently lie within or adjacent to an existing irrigation district, in which case they would have to go through the proper procedures of the Irrigation Council and perhaps the Local Authorities Board in order to bring that land into the district. All expansion will occur within that area. It's quite possible that some major expansion would occur outside existing irrigation districts or even per­ haps a new irrigation district. But I wouldn't expect anything of that nature to occur in terms of planning and so on until probably 1979 or 1980. MR. MANDEVILLE: Mr.

Chairman, one more question to the minister. Are any changes anticipated in the formula for distributing this money to the irrigation districts, taking into consideration that the older dis­ tricts need more for renovations than the newer districts? MR. MOORE: The proposal presented to me by the Irrigation Council a year ago was that the funds be distributed on an 86-14 basis up to a certain size level of a canal, which related to the cubic feet per minute flow. Beyond that, 100 per cent of the costs would be paid from grant funds.

The Irrigation Council recommended some slight changes to that formula which varies the payment between 86-14 and 100 per cent, depending upon the size of the canal. But we're still sticking with the 86-14 formula. The allocation of dollars is based on a formula involving a combination of the water rates charged by the district and the amount of land they have under irrigation. I don't have it with me, Mr. Chairman, but I'd be pleased to provide to the hon. member the formula that is being used in the coming year and that I've already agreed to for the allocation of funds.

It may be members will have some suggestions that might be made in years to come. Indeed, I'm involved at the present time in doing additional studies with respect to the 86-14 formula that was developed some years ago. It could be that down the road that would be changed because I've indicated to them that the formula we're using this year is for 1977 only, and they may expect to see changes in that formula in years ahead. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Chairman, to the minister. My questions are with regard to water licences, water rates, water rights, and the transition occurring at the present time.

I understand that the headworks and the main delivery canals in irrigation will become the responsiblity of the irrigation projects. Following that, at that point in time, the districts will be able to charge not only water rights but water rates when water is taken directly out of, say, above the head- works or in the main delivery canal. Up to the present time it hasn't been that way in all cases. So I was wondering if the minister could comment on that change. I believe it most likely would have come before the Irrigation Council.

The other question I have is with regard to getting a water licence to take water out of a main river such as the Bow River or the Oldman. Is consideration being given not only to changing the licence fee or arrangement, but also to charging water rates after the water is applied to the land, which isn't the case at the present time? MR. MOORE: I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman, I can't answer all those questions, in that the responsiblity with respect to water licensing outside a district lies with the Minister of the Environment.

Perhaps the Minis­ ter of the Environment would make note of them, and you could raise them during his estimates. I just don't have the answer whether consideration is being given to the change in licensing or the ability of an individual to draw water from reservoirs or streams that are the responsiblity of the Department of the Environment. MR. MANDEVILLE: One further question, Mr. Chair­ man. Can the irrigation districts use a portion of the grant most of them use on their delivery and on their canals for drainage for irrigation systems? MR. MOORE: Yes.

The funds are certainly being used in a variety of ways, most notably for canal lining in terms of upgrading. To some extent that involves drainage as well, because of the seepage problem that exists with poor canals. We have set aside about $500,000 from the $9 million allocated from the heritage savings trust fund for special projects. A considerable amount of that will be utilized in doing air photography work that will assist the irrigation districts a great deal in the ongo­ ing plans they might have over the next 10 years and more.

In addition to that, I'm considering some allocations with respect to drainage and canal lining for new, rather experimental-type projects like lining canals with a mixture of sulphur, which is a rather new and different technique that hasn't been tried before. So some of those dollars will go into those kinds of projects, some of them projects that are tried and true and some experimental in nature.

March 30, 1977 ALBERTA HANSARD 563 MR. MANDEVILLE: One further question, Mr. Chair­ man, with regard to reclamation of some of our alkali soils or alkali lands, or draining of sloughs, reclaiming some land. Has any consideration been given to coming up with a program to reclaim our alkali lands, or lands that are under water to put them into production? MR. MOORE: Well my information, Mr. Chairman, from visiting some of the irrigation districts this past fall, is that where they were able to effect some good lining in canals and stop the seepage, the efforts at reclamation of those soils were very successful.

In a matter of only two or three years they had them back in full production in many cases. So I don't consider it to be a problem that requires any additional research. We know what the problem is: it's see­ page. If we can eliminate that, the value of the land is so great that it almost automatically follows that the farmers involved will effect reclamation as quickly as possible. So I'm not aware that anything special is really needed there. MR. MANDEVILLE: A question to the minister, Mr. Chairman. There is a program administered through municipalities at this point.

I was just wondering how much the program is utilized. That's where the farmer puts up a third, the irrigation district a third, and the government a third. It's a program under the Department of Agriculture. Could the minister indi­ cate if this program is being utilized by many municipalities? MR. MOORE: I don't have that information with me. I expect it would be a program under the agricultural service boards wherein we provide grants for the operation of the service board and they are free, in many instances, to utilize those dollars for whatever they wish.

I'm not aware of the amount the service boards have allocated to that type of program. I expect we would have to ask the service boards for that information. But again, we could get it. Agreed to: Ref. No. 2.2 $4,414,050 Ref. No. 2.3 $6,955,623 Ref. No. 2.4 $2,853,145 Ref. No. 2.5 $12,978,273 Vote 2 Total Program $27,880,126 Ref. No. 3.1 $541,561 Ref. No. 3.2 $3,866,215 Ref. No. 3.3 $1,261,476 Ref. No. 3.4 MR. MANDEVILLE: Mr. Chairman, we have a large increase there, 176.9 per cent. Could the minister briefly outline what types of programs are involved in International Marketing? MR. MOORE: Yes I could, Mr.

Chairman. You will note the increase is from the comparable forecast of 1976-77. With the transfer of the activities of the Alberta Export Agency to the Department of Business Development and Tourism and the Department of Agriculture, there was indeed a period of time when a number of people were not on staff, and the activities of the international marketing division were being carried by the other marketing people in the Depart­ ment of Agriculture. We anticipate the international marketing area will have a full complement of roughly 16 throughout the next fiscal year.

That division is headed by an assistant deputy minister, Mr. Ben McEwen. We presently have an individual, Mr. Curtin, involved in the international marketing field in South America. We have another individual, Mr. Bill Robertson, who will be corning on staff May 1, with special responsibilities in the Japanese or Pacific Rim market. I mentioned the other day that he was formerly with Industry, Trade and Commerce in Ottawa. The other two positions, with respect to senior offi­ cers in international marketing, are the European market and the United States market.

Both are unfilled at present, but are being advertised. I would expect either one or both to be filled within the next month. In addition to that, there are a number of project officers, support staff, secretarial staff, and so on. To give you a rough idea of what's involved in the total of some $1,190,000, it would be our expectation that about $161,000 would be allocated to support Alberta's participation in international shows. In that regard, we're talking about the presentation of Alber­ ta's agricultural commodities and processed products at selected shows in our major activity areas.

Ex­ penses include travel of Alberta Agriculture person­ nel, freight, and grants to producer groups and indus­ try to cover the cost of displays and travel. Participa­ tion is planned at livestock shows in Mexico, Brazil, the United States, Argentina, England, and Scotland, with food exhibitions in western Europe, Washington, California, Oregon, and Japan, and perhaps a general exhibit in Iran. We will be spending an anticipated $141,000 on product promotion. Alberta or western Canadian promotions are considered effective methods of intro­ ducing specific products to new markets.

They would replace or follow international show presentations. These product promotions will be aimed at hotel, restaurant, institutional, and consumer markets for Alberta pork, beef, lamb, honey, rapeseed oil, pota­ toes, and a number of other products, in the United States, Japan, and Europe. Feed products, such as processed alfalfa and rapeseed meal, will undoubted­ ly be promoted in the same regions. We will be spending roughly $110,000 on buying and sales missions. That, Mr.

Chairman, is an effec­ tive form of assistance to Alberta exporters and is the partial financing of incoming buying missions and outgoing sales missions in respect of livestock, forage seed, rapeseed, and other food products. Travel and grants make up most of that portion of the budget. Some $60,000 will be spent on market develop­ ment missions.

Those missions are generally exploratory in nature — compared to more specific sales — trips such as market development activity that is planned in the Pacific Rim, the United States, Europe, Africa, and the Middle East, in respect to the export of livestock, meats, alfalfa, peat moss, and other products. An example of that, Mr. Chairman, might be the Alberta Swine Breeders Association efforts to promote the sale of Alberta swine breeding stock in a number of countries. They have already made some good contacts and sales in Japan. They

564 ALBERTA HANSARD March 30, 1977 will be following up with more efforts in Japan, also Singapore, Manila, and other areas. As well, it's expected the swine breeders may make a major sales effort in Mexico and Peru. Sixty-four thousand dollars will be spent on market studies with respect to certain feed grains, rapeseed products, meat, livestock, alfalfa, honey, et cetera. Seventeen thousand dollars in that budget is for financial services.

That includes financing and con­ sulting with respect to the technical aspects of cer­ tain agricultural export sales efforts, and are fairly significant functions of the international marketing sector. Mr. Chairman, the balance is for general serv­ ices, which include manpower, overhead costs such as travel, and so on, that are related to the staff. MR. CLARK: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to revert to the discussion we had in Public Accounts this morning with regard to a cheese operation in Wetaskiwin. If I recall the comments by the people from the Ag.

Development Corporation, it was basically as a result of a foreign market going belly up that some of the problems have been caused at Wetaskiwin. I raise the question with the minister: what kind of co­ ordination have we between these international mar­ keting people and, let's say, the Ag. Development Corporation? I was a bit taken aback this morning when I found out we had initially lent $300,000, but it gets closer to well over $1 million in the whole process at Wetaskiwin. The prime market was this Mozzarella cheese.

When that changed or went elsewhere, I got the impression that was one of the major reasons for the problem. It comes back to this question, Mr. Minister: how does the department tie in the informa­ tion you get from this international marketing group with, let's say, the Ag. Development Corporation especially? Then perhaps we could explore specifical­ ly the people in the Export Agency who are now working in this area. MR. MOORE: Did you have some further questions? Go ahead. I'll make note of them. MR. CLARK: No, I'd just like to know specifically: where are the people who were in the Export Agen­ cy?

Are they all working now in the international marketing area. If so, could we get their names, Mr. Minister, and their responsibilities? I appreciate you wouldn't have that with you right now. MR. MOORE: On the last question, Mr. Chairman, I think I just provided that. I'm sorry that I don't have the names of the secretarial staff and so on. But I indicated the major personnel in the international marketing division. I don't know particularly where individuals who were previously working there have gone to. They're undoubtedly employed in their fields of endeavor and expertise in other areas.

Insofar as the first question is concerned, there is definitely no problem whatsoever with the liaison between the Agricultural Development Corporation and functions of the Alberta Department of Agricul­ ture. Indeed on every single loan that is made, the international marketing branch — which came into being last August — is contacted. Their expertise in the area of international marketing is made known to the corporation and utilized to the fullest extent.

Our problem, quite frankly — and that's the reason the government has placed a high priority on interna­ tional trade and tariff matters — is not within any departments of the government of Alberta. The prob­ lem with respect to an importation of a large quantity of low-priced cheese is brought about by the federal Department of Industry, Trade and Commerce. That's why we are and will continue to be involved in trying to promote the interests of Alberta at such meetings as the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade cur­ rently under way in Geneva.

There's no problem whatsoever with liaison in the department about matters such as marketing and the market potential. MR. CLARK: Mr. Chairman, to get right at the ques­ tion then. Frankly this international marketing area seems to be rather a rerun of the Export Agency, only under a little different flag. MR. MOORE: That's your opinion. MR. CLARK: Yes, that's my opinion. MR. MOORE: It's not worth very much. MR. CLARK: Well, my opinion may not be very worth very much, but when . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Would you gentlemen please ad­ dress the Chair. MR.

CLARK: But when the minister gets talking about whose opinions are worth very much, and we look at his record and the government's record with regard to the Export Agency, they must not have thought the government's opinion was worth very much, or after we raised it they wouldn't have phased the whole thing out after they deliberately tried to stop us from getting information in the House by means of motions for returns. Yet we raised the matter sufficiently that the government finally wiped the whole thing out.

If we want to get involved in assessment of whose opinions are worth something and whose aren't, I think likely both the minister and I have areas we're more competent in. I may not even be quite as biased as he is, although he may not agree with that. But now to get back specifically, Mr. Minister, let's start with Mr. Bowns and Mr. Lang. Are they involved in the international marketing area? What are their responsibilities? MR. MOORE: Mr. Lang is not involved in the interna­ tional marketing division of the Department of Agri­ culture. As for Mr. Bowns, I would have to check that out. But surely, Mr.

Chairman, I've provided information with respect to the assistant deputy minister, the four senior international trade director positions — two of which are filled, two of which are vacant. In addition, I said there are a few project officers who are assist­ ing the international marketing division. In fact some project officers who are assisting the international marketing division are working in the regular market­ ing division of the department. There will continue to be a great variety of situa­ tions where other personnel in the department who have expertise are working on a specific project or for

March 30, 1977 ALBERTA HANSARD 565 a short time under the direction of the assistant deputy minister in charge of international marketing. MR. CLARK: Mr. Chairman, very specifically to the question: one of the people who was very much involved with regard to the Export Agency and the things involved there that we spent a great deal of time on last year in Public Accounts was Mr. Bowns, who took on the job, albeit on an acting basis, as the person in charge of the European operations. I'm asking frankly: is this gentleman still involved? Then, Mr.

Chairman, to the minister: what kinds of changes has the government made in its overall approach after its experience with the Export Agency? It upsets the minister very much for me to say that this looks to me like a rerun of the Export Agency under a somewhat different flag. But what changes has the government made, Mr. Minister, in the De­ partment of Agriculture? Then we can get down to the question: is it simply a different label for the same organization? Or has the government really made some changes there?

Give us some areas where you've changed the operation so the problems with the Export Agency don't happen here. MR. MOORE: Mr. Chairman, the changes have been well announced previously. We moved the functions of the Export Agency into two departments, one being the Department of Agriculture under an assistant deputy minister who reports to the deputy minister, who of course reports to me. Beyond that I really don't have anything to say, except that the functions of international marketing are well proven and have been successful.

It's my ambition to see that they continue to be successful and serve the function of providing additional market outlets to Alberta farm­ ers. We intend to carry that out to the very best of our abilities. MR. CLARK: Mr. Chairman, the only concrete example the minister is able to give us is that a change in structure is moving bodies around. Rather than having the Export Agency in one place, we've now got it in two places. We have part of it over in Business Development and Tourism and the other part here in Agriculture. The minister shakes his head. Then tell us what else has changed.

Well, the minister sits there. Obviously nothing else has changed, Mr. Chairman. Then the minister talks about the successes in the field of international marketing. Let's hear some of them. MR. MOORE: Mr. Chairman, I can go on and on and rehash a lot of things that have been done in the field of international marketing. But I can recall a year ago in this Legislature the hon. Leader of the Opposition getting up and saying, why don't you support the Alberta Canada All Breeds Association? Why do you think the Alberta Canada All Breeds Association ever got off the ground?

Who do you think is giving them assistance and providing funds, Mr. Chairman? It's the international marketing branch of the Department of Agriculture. Mr. Chairman, early in this session I talked in this Legislature about the sales of beef to Japan. A number of loads of beef were being flown to Japan to open a new market opportunity. Talk about hogs, swine breeding stock — there's a variety of areas where the international marketing group in this de­ partment has been active and effective in assisting Alberta farmers. All I can say, Mr. Chairman, is if the hon.

Leader of the Opposition doesn't think we should be doing that kind of thing to assist incomes to improve in this province, he has every right to vote against the vote. MR. CLARK: It isn't very significant just to vote against the vote. It would be more important if we could help the government not squander $4 million or $5 million again over the next period of time. The hon. minister makes a comment about assis­ tance to the All Breeds Association. Well done. That came as a result of initiation of the All Breeds people and the government.

But, you know, the minister would like you to think it was this government that thought about exporting cattle out of Alberta. The minister will admit himself that the Hereford Associa­ tion has likely done more to further the export of cattle from this province than any other organization, and credit to them. The minister has now talked about swine breeding stock and the assistance to the All Breeds people. What are some of the other successes, Mr. Minister? MR. MOORE: Mr. Chairman, all I can say is that the hon. member would have to review today's Hansard.

I don't want to have to go through the areas of expend­ iture again that are included in this vote. I already did that. I talked about international shows, product promotions, buying and sales missions, market devel­ opment missions. I indicated in some cases where those shows were, what countries they were in, what they involved. Now I don't know a year before the fact what kind of success we're going to have. All I can suggest to you is that in our judgment it's a valued concept in this government to try to expand the sales of agricul­ ture products from Alberta into foreign markets. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr.

Chairman, to the minister. I think we'd like to have a little more clarification with regard to some of the procedures these agents will use when they go to various countries marketing or promoting the concept of marketing. I recall in our discussion of the Export Agency that one of the marketing officials — I'm not sure if it was Mr. Bowns, but I recall that he was partly involved in it, and there were others — came back and gave an industry here in Alberta the feeling that there was a market for its product. On that basis it initiated production and made the product available.

Then all of a sudden the market was gone, and we found there was nothing in print. I wonder what the minister or the deputy minister responsible has done to try to rectify that kind of procedure. Is a set of guidelines available so that type of thing doesn't happen? Have there been courses? Have you been sort of educating them — I didn't want to use that word — on some of these pitfalls and their responsibilities back to not only the production centre but also the government? MR. MOORE: Mr. Chairman, we use appropriate pro­ cedures in terms of providing information. And that's exactly what it is — information.

If our people are on

566 ALBERTA HANSARD March 30, 1977 a sales or information mission and gather certain information with respect to sales opportunities in some country, as a general rule of thumb that's provided to anyone who wishes it. It's specifically provided to those who we know are interested in sales opportunities for those kinds of products, with the exception of areas where we're asked specifically by an individual group which has been trying to develop a market to assist them in some way. If they ask us to keep their efforts in that regard confidential, we do so.

But as a general rule we provide informa­ tion and expect those who are involved in interna­ tional marketing in this province to treat it with respect and to check out all the facts, not make commitments with respect to assembling product or some such thing here in this province until they have orders that they feel are reliable and can be carried through. MR. R. SPEAKER: When one of the officers is nego­ tiating or looking for a market for a particular com­ pany, is the government reimbursed for the time the officer spends working on behalf of the company?

Or is the officer, I guess — I don't know what the title is — just on the government payroll? The government foots the expenses and the bills and whatever, so that he maintains a rather neutral position? MR. MOORE: Well we're most often not involved directly with companies. Generally speaking, we're involved with something like the Alberta Swine Bree­ ders Association or the Alberta Canada All Breeds Association. In the case of our market development efforts in finished beef to Japan, we're involved with the Alberta Cattle Commission.

But indeed often­ times we do provide information, some assistance, that results in some cost to the government, to the private sector, and we don't receive any reimburse­ ment from that. But I should say that we certainly don't lean toward any one individual company. In whatever way we can we assist anyone who may require it. MR. MANDEVILLE: Mr. Chairman, the minister partly answered the question I was going to ask.

That is, does the international marketing division work with all the commodity groups in the province, and what type of liaison or what line of communication does it have between the international marketing division and the commodity groups in the province of Alberta? MR. MOORE: Mr. Chairman, a lot of that liaison is carried out by persons in the marketing division other than those who are just specifically assigned to inter­ national marketing. It takes the form of being present at meetings of their association, and letters, memos, telephone calls — a great variety of standard ways of communication.

And that has been very effective. I should say they have liaison with most commodity groups, if not all, that are involved in export market­ ing. There may be some, Mr. Chairman, which are not interested or involved in export marketing where the liaison is not that frequent. MR. CLARK: Mr.

Chairman, going back to the discus­ sion the minister and I had a few minutes ago, it seems to me that one of the problems we had with the former operation was the fact that either through the Export Agency or through funding from some other areas the government got involved in putting up capital funds or making money available to various groups. I think in terms of the buying of cattle and then having them here in Alberta before they were supposed to go to Mexico, and a number of other situations. Mr.

Minister, has the government made a con­ scious decision that any financing as far as agricul­ ture or agribusiness is concerned will be done through the Ag. Development Corporation? You will recall that in the past loans were held in a variety of places other than the Ag. Development Corporation. Has the government made that kind of policy decision as far as all agribusiness is concerned? MR. MOORE: Mr. Chairman, part of my problem in responding to the hon.

Leader of the Opposition is that I forget he is not aware of the public statements we made last September, I believe it was, when the Export Agency was phased out and the activities of the agency were assumed by the departments. In terms of the international marketing group, there is no ability whatsoever to make or guarantee loans. They do have the ability, and the dollars are in this vote to provide grants in some instances. But any assistance that may be required by someone who is marketing internationally has to come from a variety of sources, many of which are federal.

If it comes provincially, undoubtedly it would have to come by way of the Agricultural Development Corporation. There is a possibility of course — I can't think of an occasion — that the Alberta Opportunity Company may be involved. But there is no ability — and I said that last September — for this group to guarantee or make loans. MR. CLARK: Mr. Chairman, one of the reasons I keep raising the question is that when reading government press releases I sometimes find that what is said and what actually happens are two completely different things. AN HON. MEMBER: Oh, come on Bob. MR.

CLARK: One more question to the minister in this particular area. Mr. Minister, would you give us the undertaking to check with the international mar­ keting people in your department and give us a list of the people who were formerly in the Export Agency — I'm thinking in terms of the professional people who were formerly in the agency — so that frankly we can see what their assignments are now in the field of international marketing. And I think if you could . . . [interjections] MR. MOORE: Mr.

Chairman, the only staff presently in the employ of the international marketing group who were formerly with the Export Agency in terms of professional staff, and this is aside from secretarial staff and so on, are: Mr. Bowns, who was acting in a position under the assistant deputy minister as gen­ eral manager or some such title we haven't really defined yet. He is second in command to the assist­ ant deputy minister, Mr. Ben McEwen. The other two are: Mr. Curtin, whom I mentioned earlier, a trade director in the South American-Latin American area; and Clyde McMurchy, an information officer who was

March 30, 1977 ALBERTA HANSARD 567 previously with the Export Agency. All of the other personnel who may have been employed in the Export Agency have either left the government serv­ ice or joined Business Development and Tourism. I think the number that went to Business Development and Tourism was probably not more than two. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Chairman, just a couple of follow- up questions. First of all, Mr. Minister, you indicated that Mr. Curtin is the trade director in South America. Where do things stand as far as the government's intention relating to trade directors in Asia and Europe replacing Mr.

Presber and, I believe, Mr. McGrath, who was in the Far East? MR. MOORE: Sorry, Mr. Chairman, I mentioned that earlier. I guess the hon. member was out of the House, but I will review it again. We have four posi­ tions for international trade directors: the Pacific Rim, which is the Asian one; Europe; the United States; and the Latin and South American market. The South America area is filled by Mr. Curtin. The Pacif­ ic Rim area will be filled on May 1 by a Mr. Bill Robertson, who is coming to us from Industry, Trade and Commerce in Ottawa.

The other two positions are vacant but being advertised, and I believe in one case we're reviewing applicants now. I would expect both the European and U.S. director positions would be filled within the course of the next few weeks. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Chairman, to the minister. What will be the relationship between the international trade directors who are engaged by the Department of Agriculture under this particular vote? Will people appointed under Business Development and Tourism be doing similar work?

Are we in fact going to have parallel trade directors, one group dealing primarily with agricultural products, and another group dealing with other types of products that we produce in the province and want to sell? MR. MOORE: Mr. Chairman, a liaison function is established involving the assistant deputy minister of international marketing here, and the director of international marketing in Business Development and Tourism, and a specific day-to-day liaison between individuals who have responsibilities in the same market areas.

I'm not aware of the exact situation with regard to Business Development and Tourism, and the employ­ ees they might have in place now. But generally speaking, there will always be knowledge between the two parties about what the other department may be doing in a specific area. Many cases have already occurred where personnel in Agriculture and in international marketing will be following up on some­ thing not related to Agriculture if they make trips abroad, and vice versa with respect to the personnel that may be working in Business Development and Tourism.

The only other thing I can say is that no new personnel were hired in the division of the Export Agency. All the positions involved were split and went to either the Department of Agriculture or Busi­ ness Development and Tourism. But the division of the functions of the Export Agency has not resulted in any new staff. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Chairman, just to pursue this ques­ tion a little further. We all recall the announcement last summer when the Export Agency was disbanded and the functions were taken by this particular vote in the Department of Agriculture also by Business De­ velopment and Tourism.

In explaining the reason, the government indicated at that time that the ground­ work had essentially been done. Mr. Chairman, I wonder if this would be the appro­ priate time to put it to the Minister of Agriculture. When we get to Business Development and Tourism I want to raise it again. It seems to me, and I say this from the perspective of being critical of some of the moves made by the Alberta Export Agency — and we've had debates in Public Accounts on that subject — the concept of an export agency nevertheless strikes me as having a good deal of merit for a couple of reasons.

The first is that you can synchronize your export thrust under one umbrella. Quite frankly, Mr. Minister, it seems to me that the very arguments the former Minister of Agriculture advanced, when the initial ministerial order was signed by him and the announcement was made, still hold. We can argue over changes that should be made in the operation of the Alberta Export Agency, every­ thing from guidelines to what have you. This is the first chance we really have had in the House to talk about the reasoning behind the change.

One can talk about maybe even making changes in personnel, but the basic concept of an export agency which draws together people with this sort of expertise, so that we don't have needless duplication and can facilitate co-operation with the Federal Trade and Commerce people, seems to me to be basically a useful one. Frankly, with all the talk now about international thrust — trade and tariff negotiations, GATT talks, and what have you — I really wonder whether this was the time to dismantle the concept of the agency. MR. MOORE: Mr.

Chairman, those are fair enough comments, but we were really involved in a situation where there was a lot of expertise with regard to export marketing within both the Department of Business Development and Tourism and the Depart­ ment of Agriculture. Much of that involved some judgment on whether we would be able to produce sufficient supplies in Alberta, and that involved the production sector of the Department of Agriculture. So by the very nature of that work, there had to be a lot of liaison between the Export Agency and the two departments involved.

In some respects, what was probably beginning to develop was not one single agency but one agency and two departments with capabilities needed and required in the field of international marketing. It was our thought that it would be easier and we would serve the purpose better by having that expertise in international marketing in the two departments, and then creating a working relationship between two departments. Surely we should be able to do that.

I think we've been pretty effective in getting Business Development and Tourism and Agriculture to work very closely together, not only in this area but in our initiatives, tariffs and trade, and so on. Bear in mind I had individuals in the Department of Agriculture who were experts in terms of tariff and trade matters. They weren't in the Export Agency. I suppose we really had two or three routes to go.

568 ALBERTA HANSARD March 30, 1977 We could have strengthened the Export Agency by moving staff from both departments to go into the Export Agency. Ultimately we may have had 70 or 80 people employed there to do an effective job without departmental input. We felt this was a better route to take. In addition, I think it was fair to say we were concerned that the international marketing efforts be under the direct control of a minister and a deputy minister and be part of a department. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Chairman, I suppose the proof of the pudding will eventually be in the marketing in this case.

We'll see whether we do have the co­ ordination. I think this is the sort of concern we'll have to watch, that there is adequate co-ordination. One of the things that concerns me — and this just brings me back to a discussion that the Leader of the Opposition raised — is this very hazy area of what you do when somebody has a market opportunity that they think exists and they want to develop that in confidence. It seems to me that is an extremely touchy problem even for the most competent personnel.

My question to the minister is: when somebody comes and says, look, I've got a market opportunity, I want to receive some assistance from the interna­ tional marketing people to develop that opportunity, at what point is it the position of the people in Agricul­ ture that that information must be translated to the trade as a whole, so that it's freely available to everyone who might be able to take advantage of it. MR. MOORE: Well, that depends. That's a judgment decision, Mr. Chairman.

Of course I personally don't get that involved in those kinds of judgment deci­ sions, because those kinds of things are happening every day. It may be that some individual comes to us seeking assistance and says, I have made contacts and worked for a year, or six months or something, on this market; now my only problem is in securing adequate shipping or in getting competitive air freight quotes to carry through my project. In that case we assist him on a confidential basis. We didn't provide him with any information about a market opportunity.

He came to us and said, I found the market opportuni­ ty but I need some extra help to put it together. So we assist him. In the case of groups such as the Alberta Cattle Commission or the All Breeds Association, we expect them as producer groups to pass on information to whomever might be members of their association or have capabilities in that regard. Agreed to: Ref. No. 3.4 $1,190,569 Vote 3 Total Program $6,859,821 MR. CHAIRMAN: Vote 4, Rural Development Assis­ tance, Ref. No. 4.1, Program Support. Are you agreed? MR. CLARK: No. Ref. No. 4.1 MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Chairman, to the minister.

This deals also with the Agricultural Development Corporation, is that correct? MR. CLARK: Yes. MR. R. SPEAKER: This morning the question was asked with regard to the procedures used, and the minister outlined the procedure an application must go through to be approved or disapproved by the board. I want to recall when the concept of the corporation was introduced in this Legislature. The minister at that time, the Deputy Premier, said, we're going to use the district agriculturists to work with the pro­ gram, bring the farmer to the program and the pro­ gram to the farmer.

And we're going to do it around the kitchen table. We're going to help each other. We're going to talk about all the problems and all the alternatives, we're going to make suggestions, we're going to make it possible for the young farmer or the farmer who wants either to get into farming or expand — we're going to really make it happen. We had a terrific speech, a fantastic speech about this great liaison that was going on. Then I recall we talked about whether they would use the DAs to the maximum. Oh yes, there wouldn't be all this other staff. We're going to use what we've got.

Well now we've got regional officers. The DAs are sitting on the sidelines and are asked to come in and make a recommendation once in a while. That's the number one concern, and I'd like the minister to comment on that. The two things I'm going to talk about are the regional officers and the concept of sitting around the kitchen table. We have regional directors plus these loans officers meet with the people and do this job the district agriculturists were set up to do in the first place. I want to give two situations with regard to the job of the loans officer.

One of the loans officers in southern Alberta comes close to the concept of sitting around the kitchen table and discussing. He's sat down with people I've referred to him, discussed alternatives, and given them some help filling out that long application which I must say takes some time, and I'd like to comment on that. The other loans officer in the south takes a dif­ ferent approach. He sits in judgment on the applica­ tion. When the farmer comes in — the farmer doesn't like filling out a lot of applications — he'll say, here's the application. Go home and fill it out.

Here are the seven or eight pages you've got to fill out. So the farmer takes it home. Normally, then, the MLA gets a call: "can you come and fill out this application form for me?" So the MLA says, "look, could you just give it a try once, then after you've tried it once . . ." So they phone back about 10 hours later and say, "I'm still frustrated, and I don't know what to do with it. Can I come over?" So they come. The sittings with this type of thing, filling out that application form, have ranged anywhere from four to eight hours. After we're finished with it I say, "it looks good.

I think we've got all the detail and all the material. Your job now is to take it back to the loans officer." They take it back immediately the next day, because I tell them it takes a long time to go through the process. When they take it to the loans officer, he sits in judgment in his chair and says, I haven't got

March 30, 1977 ALBERTA HANSARD 569 enough of this, or there isn't enough of that, and you made a mistake here. Go back and look at it again. My concern is that the concept of discussion around the kitchen table is lost at that point in time. I've raised this with the board and with the director. I've said that is a concern to me. The loans officers were initially set out to do that task. They aren't carrying out that particular function. If they aren't, their role or their job should be reviewed and terms of reference should be established. It would be a lot of help to the young farmer.

If that role has changed, or the minister feels the loans officer is only to sit in judgment and not to take the application and look at the alternatives . . . I've found situations where we were able to rear­ range the thing and look at it from a different angle, such as saying the young farmer could maybe get winter employment. He said, excellent idea. I've had that before; I can do it again. So we add that as a part of the application. That has helped the application and it has gone through the process and been passed. We've talked about added collateral from parents.

By discussion, that has helped the application. Lowering the price of machinery — incidents where they went back to the vendor and the price had gone down. But the loans officer didn't really look at that and say to the young fellow, look, I want to talk . . . I'm really interested in your future. It was: when you come to me, I'm in judgment. If it isn't good enough, tough break. Go home and think about it some more. Come back with another application. These young people go back and forth and travel 40 to 80 miles to see this fellow once a week. It takes a lot of their time. They get frustrated.

I don't think that was the concept, and I'd like the minister to comment on that. If that isn't the concept, if this concept of sitting around the kitchen table has been lost, we should know about it. Secondly, if the role of the loans officer is to sit in judgment, we should know about that so we know how to approach the problem a little better from now on. Because it concerns me very much, I'd like to give one example of an application. We started on this application early in 1976, a very good application from a young fellow 19 years of age. He'd farmed two years. He'd rented his grandfather's farm.

The grandfather was giving the land at a reduced rate, a level way below the going price in the area. We went through all this rigmarole about filling out the applica­ tion — I don't want to rehearse that again, but it was just unbelievable. I asked the loans officer to outline the alternatives that would improve this application. We went through all the rigmarole. We spent at least nine months going around and around and around. Finally we got fed up and said this is ridiculous, nonsense. I said to the young fellow, go back to the Farm Credit Corporation. These guys aren't even lis­ tening to you.

You're a beginning farmer, you want to get into the business, the land is right, you've proven yourself, you have the best set of books. If I as a farmer had my books in that good shape, I'd be very, very happy. MR. NOTLEY: You'd know you were going broke. MR. R. SPEAKER: That's right. I'd know I was going broke. The best set of books I've ever seen. You'd go into his farmhouse and there they were — excellent situation. But the loans officer couldn't see it. The conclusion was that we went back to the Farm Credit Corporation.

Within 10 days they approved the loan and they said, what's the matter with this situation? I couldn't figure it out either. But that kind of thing is going on with the beginning farmer and the farmer out there. All I ask the minister is: has the concept really changed? If it has, maybe we should know about it. MR. MOORE: Mr. Chairman, first of all the hon. member makes some good points and gives a pretty accurate description of some of the difficulties that occur. After the next election, I'd be prepared to entertain an application from the hon. member as a loans officer.

With the experience he's had, I'm sure he would make a good one. [interjections] Mr. Chairman, if I might comment first of all on the suggestion that things have changed. I'm not sure they've changed at all, but it may surprise you to know that the idea and growth expectations of the Agricultural Development Corporation by the former Minister of Agriculture, I think, have been surpassed. That doesn't happen very often with the hon. Deputy Premier. I think he envisioned us lending four or five times as much as the old Farm Purchase Board, which was $1 million or so a year.

In fact we got involved in pretty extensive loans. Since the intro­ duction of The Agricultural Development Act, we've had to come back and increase the amount of direct loans from $50 million to $100 million and then to $150 million. We also put into place a program that involves loans guaranteed by the corporation over the four years, something in excess of $400 million. So it did grow and develop much more quickly, I think, than anyone might have anticipated at the time. For that reason we had a load on district agricultur­ ists that they simply couldn't handle.

It wasn't possi­ ble for our 62 DA offices to perform the function they were previously performing in terms of production assistance and so on and still do the loans officer's job. So we moved to provide additional staff. We presently have about one loans officer for every two DA regions. They're not in regional offices. In many, many cases they're adjacent to a district agriculturist. They may travel 100 miles or so once every week or two weeks to spend a few days in another office. So they're out there in the field.

The only thing I can say with respect to the perfor­ mance of our loans officers is that we don't have any particular magic when it comes to hiring people. We've got some darned good ones, some who are medium, and some who are poor. When that's brought to my attention, I try to do what I can to effect some changes that will result in improvement of the situation. It's not unusual, Mr. Chairman, for me to receive that information confidentially — I think that's the way it should be — from MLAs on a case-by-case basis. I appreciate receiving that.

So in case the problem the hon. member mentions is still occurring there, I'd be pleased to look at it if he would provide me confidentially with the information. On the other hand, I have to say there is a respon­ sibility on the farmer, whether he be an existing operator or a young farmer. I don't see anything whatsoever wrong with an individual taking eight hours to fill out an application for a loan that's going to be with him for 30 years or a lifetime. He's going

570 ALBERTA HANSARD March 30, 1977 into a new operation. Indeed it's my expectation that on most occasions a young farmer who is buying land and machinery and setting himself up as an estab­ lished farmer with 80 per cent borrowed money should spend several days on a loan application. One of the things I've tried to impress upon our loans officers is: don't just sit the guy down in front of you across the table, ask him questions, fill out his whole application, make assumptions about his cash flow projections, and so on. So there's onus on both sides.

I don't tell the loans officers they should hand him the application form and say, go away. But we do suggest that the successful farmers we've had in this program and the ones who were provided with financing under the old Alberta Farm Purchase Board were ones who spent a considerable amount of time thinking about what they were doing, projecting in­ come, expenses, cash flow, family needs, and those kinds of thing. If somebody else does it for them, they forget all about it when they go down the street to write a cheque. So it's not all one-sided.

If an indi­ vidual is coming to ADC to borrow a substantial amount of money, we expect him to spend a fair amount of time doing his own work on that applica­ tion form. But I agree with the hon. member, Mr. Chairman. There should be some guidance. Insofar as the conclusion of the hon. member's story is concerned, we ask that people go to the Farm Credit Corporation first, because we're a lender of last resort. We ask generally that they get a turn­ down from FCC so we know they've been there. Why this individual didn't go that route instead of the ADC route, I don't know.

As well, I should say that part of the job of the loans officer is not to fill out application forms to borrow money from ADC, but to assess the financial needs of the individual and determine before he fills out a loan or hands him a loan application form if there are other areas where he should be going to get his credit. If he needs short-term credit, he should go to the bank and get an FIL or an Alberta farm development loan. If it's long-term credit, he should first go to FCC.

Perhaps the mistake made in this case was that the loans officer, instead of sitting down with him and discussing his total credit needs and assessing where he should go, handed him an application form and didn't do anything further. I think that's not a respon­ sible way for employees to act, but it does occur. MR. R. SPEAKER: I'm sorry, I didn't add all the details to the story. It had a happy ending, so I didn't think all the details were necessary. Yes, he did go to Farm Credit in the first place. But in that nine-month period some of the details changed. So it was that way.

I'd like to ask the minister, though: are there in- service training courses where the loans officers meet and discuss their approach to an application, how to serve better the farmer or the farm group? I agree with you that the number one responsibility does rest with the young farmer or the existing farmer to fill out that application and think through the responsibility he is taking.

I guess the point I make — and I think that was communicated — is that it was a matter of discussing the alternatives to that application, how you should use credit and how you shouldn't, how you may need more collateral, the difficulties you can get into. I think the counselling

part concerned me to quite an extent. In the situation I'm thinking about I felt it just wasn't adequate. I myself pressed the fellow very, very hard and said, now if you feel the application should be turned down, are there some alternatives? Come back and give us some alternatives to help us think through this thing. You're the guy with experience. Well, that just didn't come back. I felt there was a vacuum there. Maybe some in-service training could help all of them to quite an extent. MR. MOORE: Mr. Chairman, yes we're developing more and more all the time the kind of thing you'd call in-service training.

Part of it involves bringing loans officers and regional staff to the corporation's head office in Camrose, letting them sit through part of a board meeting where the board of directors of ADC are discussing a loan appeal. In addition, the staff of the corporation, the senior loans officers have been travelling more extensively to meet loans offi­ cers from a particular region on their own ground. In addition, Mr. Chairman, we've really not had the loans officers in place for more than about two years. I am considering what type of rotation might be involved in terms of loans officers.

I think it's akin to some other situations where it's probably beneficial if there is some movement of loans officers from one area of the province to another, on something like a four- or five-year basis as a maximum, so they have some broadening of their experience. That has not yet been finalized, but we're considering that kind of approach. I expect we would probably be doing that. Agreed to: Ref. No. 4.1 $1,056,581 Ref. No. 4.2 $9,629,783 Ref. No. 4.3 $4,475,650 Ref. No. 4.4 MR. CLARK: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the minister would outline here what plans there are for this 4-H centre.

I've had the opportunity to look at just the model that went out to a number of groups across the province. I was later told that that really wasn't what was being looked at, and that the province was pre­ pared to put up some money on some basis — I forget if it was on a matching basis or not — if 4-H members across the province would raise a certain portion of money. So, Mr. Minister, just what is the status of that proposal? What kind of equipment has the gov­ ernment given the 4-H provincial council as far as funding is concerned, both capital and operational? MR. MOORE: Mr.

Chairman, I first became aware of the plans for a 4-H centre shortly after assuming responsibility in my department for the 4-H program. The 4-H centre idea was developed by the 4-H Advi­ sory Council, which has lay people from throughout the province. I had a meeting with them in Septem­ ber of last year, I believe, when I first heard about the plans for a proposed 4-H centre. I inquired of them how they proposed to finance the purchase of the land, the development of the facility, and the ongoing operating costs. At that point the 4-H Advisory Coun­

March 30, 1977 ALBERTA HANSARD 571 cil told me they were most concerned with raising enough funds for the purchase of land, which I understand is just something in excess of $100,000. I told them at that time that there had [not] been to this point, and would not be without some considera­ ble thought, any commitment at all from the govern­ ment of Alberta to assist in either the purchase of land, the capital construction costs, or the ongoing operating costs.

And it was my view that such a large capital and operating undertaking would have to have the full support of the 4-H leaders and 4-H commu­ nity and clubs throughout this province. I said that if the 4-H movement felt they could fund a substantial portion of those capital costs by way of raising funds through a foundation or some such program and could put together a package that would provide for the ongoing operating costs, we would certainly support the idea insofar as I was concerned. But before supporting it, we would have to know what the 4-H people throughout this province think.

I advised them to take it to the annual meeting of the 4-H leaders in November and fly it across the prov­ ince to see what happens. That's the position we're in right now. My under­ standing is that there is some good support for it. There are also a good number of clubs and areas that don't believe a single 4-H centre of that magnitude in the province is appropriate. MR. CLARK: Mr. Chairman, to the minister. Mr.

Minister, you're telling us there has been no com­ mitment as far as operation or capital funds from the province, and the kind of feedback the government has is a rather mixed response from 4-H leaders across the province? Is that a fair assessment of where it sits today? MR. MOORE: Yes it is. Agreed to: Ref. No. 4.4 $4,758,922 Vote 4 Total Program $19,920,936 Vote 5 Total Program $120,000 Ref. No. 1.0 $73,000 Ref. No. 2.0 $588,000 Ref. No. 3.0 $154,000 Ref. No. 4.0 $287,000 Ref. No. 5.0 $3,000 Department Total $1,105,000 MR. MOORE: I move the resolution be reported, Mr. Chairman. [Motion carried] MR.

HYNDMAN: Mr. Chairman, I move the committee rise, report progress, and beg leave to sit again. [Motion carried] [Mr. Speaker in the Chair] DR. McCRIMMON: Mr.

Speaker, the Committee of Supply has had under consideration the following resolution, reports the same, and requests leave to sit again: Resolved that for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1978, amounts not exceeding the following sums be granted to Her Majesty for the Department of Agricul­ ture: $7,309,975 for departmental support services, $27,880,126 for production assistance, $6,859,821 for marketing assistance, $19,920,936 for rural de­ velopment assistance, $120,000 for international de­ velopment assistance. MR. SPEAKER: Having heard the report and the re­ quest for leave to sit again, do you all agree?

HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. head: GOVERNMENT MOTIONS 1. Moved by Mr. Leitch:

Be it resolved that this Assembly approve in general the fiscal policies of the government. [Adjourned debate: Mr. Hansen] MR. HANSEN: Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleas­ ure to take

part in the Budget Address. First, I would like to congratulate the Provincial Treasurer, both on his budget and on the way he gave the address. I think a budget such as this with no increase in taxes is something all Albertans can be proud of. A lot of it has been covered by different speakers. I would like to bring out some highlights which help the province of Alberta. One of the first things I'd like to mention is the natural gas rebate plan. This $3,329.1 million increase helped all Albertans wherever they live. I think it should be mentioned.

Also our schools — a new direction and an increase of $50,885,000 brings their budget to over $548 million this year. We have a stress on small schools. I think that in this province we have one of the best schools systems there is. With support like this, I believe it will keep on going and keep its place. There has been a lot of talk about senior citizens and their grants, housing developments that have been made. I think we owe this to the senior citizens of Alberta. I'm glad to see it's increased in this budget. I think we're keeping our social services well up in this province as well.

Another thing I would like to mention is the budget for our highways and transportation. The govern­ ment itself is providing a budget of $229.4 million, which will build approximately 650 miles of primary and secondary highways. In this part, especially in my constituency, Mr. Speaker, roads are very neces­ sary, with the amount of industry developing in the oil business and also the tourist trade. I would like to see the budget for highways increased more than it actually is.

Since a lot of different points have been brought out in the budget, I would like to take a little time to speak on my constituency and how this budget affects it. As we know, the cattle prices have been low. The grants for the cow-calf operation help to keep the cow-calf operator in business for another year. But the cost of farming, whether it's haying or grain farming, is a very high cost, expecially in fuel. I would like the cabinet, the Premier, and the rest of the government to take a look at the 8 cents a gallon transportation subsidy to the farmer. I don't call it a

572 ALBERTA HANSARD March 30, 1977 subsidy to the farmer. I think it's a subsidy to the consumer. I think that with an industry we have in Alberta like farming we should be looking at maybe higher than 8 cents, because there is no tax on this gas. If we're going to keep farming at the head of industry in Alberta, we should be looking at these things. I was glad to see that our natural gas rebate raised from $70 million to $105 million would help Albertans. I'd like to go back and say a few things about our roads. With the industry and the tourist trade in my constituency, there is a lot of use for roads.

I would like to suggest to the cabinet and the Premier that one way we may help to expand these roads, espe­ cially in the towns that are trying to pave and build up their communities — I would like to recommend to the government that we use part of the heritage fund for paving roads in these towns. How this could come about is: if the towns are expanding their paving programs, they could buy oil without the royal­ ties, and the royalties would come out of the heritage fund. I think all our airports and roads and our expansion of highways are not only for the people here today.

They are something for the future, and this is why I'm suggesting this to the government. I hope they will look into this. It would be a great saving for all the towns and villages. Even the gov­ ernment, if they wanted to go that far in paving their highways, would have the oil to build these roads, highways, or airports free of royalty, which would come out of the heritage fund. I would also like to mention — I'm not going to go into it very far — our laws and our institutions. The cost of crime today is very high to the province.

I believe there is something seriously wrong with the way our institutions operate when we have strikes in our institutions that are caused by feeding them too much ham and too much turkey. I think adjustments will have to be made in this line. I'd like to say another thing while I'm talking about this. Last fall when we were in session I was through one of the institutions for young offenders, which is on the north side of Edmonton. We spent about three hours there. While we were going through looking at it, in one of the rooms we went through I tried to size up the young people there.

After we came out of that part of the institution, I specifically asked the one who was showing us around what one young fellow was in there for. He looked at me and said, well that's one of our top counsellors. I would like to advise the government that when they put counsellors into these institutions they at least make them dress so you can tell them apart. I was shocked at his clothes, his attire, his hair, and everything. I think that if we're going to have counsellors in these institutions, they should be dressed the way we'd like to see our young people dress — with respect.

So that is one thing I hope they will look into: when they have counsellors counselling these young people, they are dressed so you can recognize them if you go into an institution. Another thing I would like to speak on which is part of the budget, Mr. Speaker, is the court system in my constituency. I know that our government has a direction to have courts their own identity. This is fine. Over a year ago I had the Attorney General up in my area — Grand Centre, Cold Lake. We went through the courts, the jails, and the policing depart­ ment in my area.

I think the Attorney General agrees with me on this: that we have a situation in that part of my constituency that is like no other

part in Alber­ ta. The Grand Centre-Cold Lake area holds court above a dance hall. Mr. Speaker, in this day and age I think it is time we get a courthouse built in Grand Centre. We had a courthouse in Cold Lake — holding facili­ ties. It was a fair deal as far as facilities, but it was small. Some of the officials who worked in this court had a flare with the town about two years ago. Without my knowledge it was then pulled out of Cold Lake. It bypassed Grand Centre, a town of 3,000, and went about two miles south and ended up upstairs over a dance hall. They have no facilities for holding the prisoners. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to bring this to the attention of the Attorney General's Depart­ ment. We have not received our court that we talked about that night in Grand Centre and was going to have remedied. I would also say that in the budget 48 provincial courts are going to be either renewed or built this year. I hope he will consider that Grand Centre will be on a high priority. In the town of Grand Centre last year we were able to fix the side roads and one thing or another, which I thank the Department of Transportation for.

I also would like to say to the Department of Housing and Public Works that I see in last week's paper that our provincial building in Bonnyville, which has taken some time to develop, has been advertised. I would have to thank the previous minister of public works for obtaining the land. Now we have the provincial building advertised and it's going on, so for my constituency I would like to thank him. I would also like to say a few words, Mr. Speaker, to the minister in charge of fisheries. I think in northeastern Alberta we are neglecting our lakes, our sportsmen, and our commercial fishermen.

I would like him to look into this matter in his department. We have at least tripled our tourists in that area in the last four years. With this extra sportsmen and commercial fishing, I think it is time we put more back into the lakes after taking them out. Another thing we have to watch very closely — and this is part of the budget too — is to keep our lakes clean and to look after the water. In the budget I would also like to see them spend money on all lakes in Alberta, espe­ cially mine, to clean out the ling in some of these lakes so the fish can increase.

Now for some of the people here who may not understand what a ling is, it's a scavenger fish which feeds on other fish and eggs. We have some lakes in my area that have more ling than they can handle, as far as keeping the lake in good shape is concerned. They're just overrunning the lakes. They can be taken out by ling lines or special nets without hurting other fish. So I hope he looks into this. There's one other thing — it's in the budget for this year, and has been for the last few years — that I would like to draw to his attention. This is their bear program up at Marie Lake.

I wish I could convince that department to move it to somebody else's con­ stituency, Mr. Speaker. AN HON. MEMBER: Edmonton Centre.

March 30, 1977 ALBERTA HANSARD 573 MR. HANSEN: If Edmonton Centre wants it, Mr. Speaker, they're welcome to it, with all their bears. It's given us a lot of trouble. I would also like to say to the same minister that I am thankful the Cold Lake park is being built, and that he has promised to spend this year's part of the budget before July 1, 2, and 3, because up at Medley, our Cold Lake air base, those are the three days the air show will be on this year. They expect maybe it will reach between 50,000 and 60,000 visitors [at] that time.

So I'm thankful, and I'd like to thank him for hurrying up the program a little bit and getting the work done before those dates. I think we're inviting all Albertans and all Canadians and anybody else who wants to come. I would also like to say to the Minister of Housing and Public Works — part of the budget — that up in the Cold Lake area we are all thankful for the new senior citizens' home we had last year. It is finished now. I would like to say to the people who read this or hear about it that it isn't full yet and I'd like to see it filled.

One other minister I would like to say a word or two to is the Minister of Hospitals and Medical Care. He has now placed the Cold Lake hospital on a planning basis. I hope that it isn't only planning for too many years [and] that we can do something about the situa­ tion, because right now that hospital is running at full capacity. If this oil industry goes ahead in my area the way it's expected to, with another four plants coming on stream this fall, I think we should have the facilities in case of accidents. Thank you. MR. GHITTER: Mr.

Speaker, we've been here now for over a month and we've heard the bleating of the lambs — and whatever pheasants do — and we've heard all about rural matters in Alberta. I think it's probably time I gave my annual address in terms of what happens in the inner core of the city, just to remind my friends from the countryside that there is an urban core to a city. They too, while they're paying all the bills for the country people, do have problems, many of them. As a result, Mr.

Speaker, I welcome the opportunity to enter this debate to relate to some of the problems existing in downtown Cal­ gary and in downtown Edmonton beyond the walk from the Legislature to the hotel and around. There are people living there and trying to exist — many of the difficult things one faces [when] living in the core of a large, growing urban centre. First, like the others, I would like to compliment our Provincial Treasurer for what I think to be a very restrained and a very fruitful budget. Of course it makes one thankful for being in the province of Alber­ ta, Mr. Speaker.

I know we're all cognizant of the problems we will be facing in the not too distant future when our needs start growing and our revenues start diminishing, and when the tempta­ tions come upon us to dig into our heritage, as one would say — to look into the growing needs and diminishing revenues. Mr. Speaker, against the backdrop of prosperity that exists in the province right now, I would suggest there are areas of concern, and areas I think we should think in terms of as we said at this particular session of the Legislature.

Because, after all, I think this session will go down in history as being the one that finally brought in a planning act — and I'm pleased to see we have a planning act, albeit one with not too many surprises, but one I'm sure we'll enjoy debating in the not too distant future.

I think this session will be looked upon as a planning session and as one dealing with some very difficult problems, particularly those relating to rents, matters of hous­ ing, and matters [as to] what we should do in the sense of our highly controlled society and the society that is apparently going to be coming out of these controls in the not too distant future. Mr.

Speaker, I think the first area that has not really been discussed in this House, and one that I think should be — inasmuch as this is a Legislature that was very concerned with the rights of individuals, bills of rights, individual rights, and matters I know all members are very concerned with — is the impact of the restricted development areas on the rights of individuals as they exist in the city of Calgary, and of course in the city of Edmonton for a longer period of time. Mr.

Speaker, I don't for a moment criticize the necessity of having restricted development areas, as I think that when you have the very large, gr