VOL. 3 THIRD SESSION OF THE THIRTY-NINTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 10:00 a.m. - 1:00 p.m. FRIDAY, MAY 11, 1984 NO. 36

May 11, 1984, Tape 1522, Page 1 -- apb The House met at 10:00 a.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER(Russell): STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS HR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, in response to a question posed by one of my colleagues a few moments ago, when he said, 'What is all this fitness stuff?', I wish to inform the han. House that beginning on Sunday, May 13, and running through to May 21, 1984 millions of Canadians will be participating in a unique nine-daycelebrationknown as National Physical Activity Week.

National Physical Activity Week is a major promotional campaign designed to stimulate g~eater participation in physical activity. In keeping with the first National Physical Activity Week, launched in 1983, this year's campaign will again feature a number of nation-wide mass participation projects sponsored by national and provincial health and fitness associations, provincial governments and Fitness Canada. Mr.

Speaker, in Newfoundland and Labrador last year approximately 60,000 people were involved in numerous events during that particular week and this year we anticipate an even greater participation: somewhere between 70,000 to 100,000 Newfoundlanders and Labradorians will participate. An enormous amount of volunteer work has gone into this campaign, with over 3,000 volunteers helping out. There are thirteen towns that are hosting week-long events during National Physical Activity Week, along with fifteen provincial Health and Fitness Associations, and over 50 small,individual 3896

May ll, 1984, Tape 1522, Page 2 -- apb MR. SIMMS: communities that are also hosting tht¥ir own singular events. My department has been co-ordinating the national and provincial projects with these provincial associations . and the above groups , ensuring that as many people as possible get out and become active during National Physical Activity Week , 1984. Even some provincial government departments have taken the initiative and are participating in various projects throughout the week.

The success of National Physical Activity Week can only be made pos sible by the ded .icated work of these numerous volunteers and various associations and groups . And, indeed, it is because of their volunteer activity that I have agreed to make this statement thi s morning to help promote that particular activity. As the Minister responsible for Fitne ss, Mr. Speaker, I want to urge all hon. members and, indeed, all the people of Newfoundland and Labrador to take

part in as many events as possible during the week of May 13 to 21. Now, as part o·f the han . members of this Rouse commitment to fitness , 3897

May 11, 1984 Tape 1523 PK - 1 MR. SIMMS: I hereby challenge all members of the House of Assembly to join with me Monday morning, 9:15 A.M. in the lobby of Confederation Building for the kick-off of a very special project known as Stairway to Health. The idea will be to climb as many stairs as possible and to avoid elevators during National Physical Activity Week. So I look forward to seeing all han. members there 9>15 Monday morning. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SU1MS: han. members - AN HON. MEMBER: MR. SIMMS: private elevator, of course. MR. SIMMS: Hear, hear! I might add 1 also,wherever Avoid all elevat.ors.

That would exclude the - may be during National Physical Activity Week,I want to urge them to contact their town office Recreation Department or my own office and get personally involved with this unique fitness celebrations. Consult your television, radio and newspaper for the

schedule of events in your area. I have a badge for everybody, you will be happy to know 1including the press. And to conclude my statement, Mr. Speaker, I want to quote a bit of philosophy from a famous Greek philosopher who once said 'Fitness is not only a state of mind but also a state of ·motion'. So,as that familiar line on televisioTh says, 'Don't just think about it/ Do it, do it, do it! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hea:~> , hear! MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The han. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, when the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth (Mr.

Simms) such as this, one cannot help but get up and support it. I believe, Mr. Speaker, while the statement may have been r:ade in a light-hearted rrood, 3888

May ll 1 1984 Tape 1523 PK- 2· MR . WARREN: there is also a serious connotation, because I believe we are all too dormant , we are all sitting back on our laurels too much and not doing enough .activity. In fact, the Department of PUblic Works has a man who holds an elevator for us on the . floor where our offices are to bring us up here . MR . SIMMS: At your request. MR . WARREN: Mr . Speaker, why do we not use th e stairs more often? Mr. Speaker, I would li .ke to say one thing; the minister challenges us at 9:15 A.M. on Monday morning . I do not think that is good enough, Mr.

Speaker, because I think we have 9:15 until 3:00 o'clock before we come into the House, and we have lots of time to get our breath. So why do we not start 2:45 P.M. on the main floor and come all the way up the stairs to the House of Assembly and we will be here by 3:00 o'clock. Then we will see who ha s the stamina to get from the main floor up to the House of Assembly before 3:00 o'clock . That would be a challenge for all members. As the bon. member said, if the Rou se then sat at 3:00 o'clo ck, 3899

May 11, 1984 Tape No . 1524 SD - 1 MR . WARREN : probably the Speaker would say , 'We cannot start the House because we do not have a quorum; half the members are some\'1here between the main floor and the tenth floor of Confederation Building ' . So, Mr . Speaker, I will take the minister up on his challenge. Furthermore , I feel that r am in such good physical shape that at any time I t-1ill race up the stairs with any member in this House . MR. SI.Mt-15: Mr. Speaker, I to1ould just like to respond to something there. MR. SPEAKER tRus ·selll : Order , please! to respond? SOME HON . t-1E~ERS : MR.

SPEAKER : Recreation and Youth . MR. SIMMS : Does the hon . member have leave By leave . The han . Minister of Culture, I would not want to detract from the proje ct that this group has organized for 9:15 Monday morning , so I have to emphasize that the project is at 9:15 a.m. Monday morning 1 but t-1e can also be here at 2:45p .m. and join the han . member for Torngat Mountains (Mr . Warren) at 2:45 p.m. ±n th e lobby, too, and do that as well, but 9:15 a.m. Monday morning is the b±ggie. 3900

May 11, 1984 Tape No. 1524 SD - 2 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : HR. WARREN: The hon. member for Torngat Mountains. Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Education (Ms . Verge} a question, and if the minister wishes to pass it to the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn) it is okay with me because it does have to do with employment and education combined. I understand this year many of the graduates from Memorial University,in particular in the Engineering Department 1 are having difficulty in finding employment.

Could the minister advice the House if she has had any concerns · express ·ed by the graduates from Memorial University concerning employment this year? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Education. MS. VERGE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I "Till be happy to field this question and make some comments and 1 with the cons~nt of the members opposite, perhaps I can turn it over to the Mini ·ster of Labour and Manpo~r. In fact, I have not been approached by graduates of Memorial Universit y this Spring with expres-sions of their concerns about finding jobs.

However, I do understand,and I was apprised of this in a direct way last year, that students in co-op programmes, in particular Enqineering and aus·iness I who have to find employment to fulfi·ll thei-r work term requirement for graduation 1 !:lave had a lot more , 3901

May 11, 1984 Tape No. 1525 NM - 1 MS. VERGE: difficulty finding jobs to satisfy those work term requirements over the last couple of years. However, the administration of the university, the personnel at the university who try to find these work term placements 1 have been quite innovative and I do under- stand that through a lot of effort on their part, as well as a lot of effort on the students', most of the students last year, at any rate until now, were able to find jobs to fulfill their graduation requirements. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. member for Torngat Mountains. MR.

WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I have another question for the minister. Has she any statistics or any indications that many of the students within the past two o·­ three years are out in the job market but are unable to find suitable jobs and subsequently are returning to university or to trade schools for some other further degree or further education? Has the minister any statistics on what the studentswere doing,say,two years ago or three years ago andone year ago? If they cannot find a job, are they, for the sake of doing something, going back and getting a higher education? . MR. SPEAKER: Education. MS.

VERGE: The hon. Minister of Mr. Speaker, I do not have those statistics in my head although I would think some data to indicate the incidents of what the han. member describes would be available from the post-secondary institutions and perhaps officials of my department. It does seem that there have been many such cases. It also seems from the data available that people with the advantage of post-secondary ,study, with 3902

May 11, 1984 Tape No. 1525 Nl-1 - 2 MS. VERGE: university degrees an~ technology diplomas, have a much easier time getting employment than those with inferior formal education requirements . So clearly there does seem to be a big advantage to people in finding jobs and also finding jobs that are suitable for them and fairly well-paying to embark on post -secondary study. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER (Ru ssell) : The hon . member for Torngat Mountains . MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, another question to the minister : In view of the fact that there are so many young Newfoundlanders and Labradorians attending trade schools, vocational schools , and the university, and 3903

May 11,1984 Tape No. 1526 ah-1 MR. WARREN: getting their diplomas and thei'r degrees but unable to find sui table employment, is . it a futile attempt for those young Newfoundlanders and Labradorians to continue spending thousands and thousands of dollars to get a reasonable education and then be unable to find employment in the market? How does this affect the policy of this present ac' 0i .:nistration when we have so many people graduatin~ without employment. MR.SPEAKER (Russell): The han. Minister of Education. RS.VERGE: Mr.

Speaker, as I already indicated in my answer to the previous question,it is felt by this administration,with the benefit of research and statistical information,that while in the present economy finding employment is more difficult than it was a few years ago for that one narrow purpose,it is still tremendously beneficial for the people to have university degrees, technology diplomas .and vocational training certificates. Higher education does give people competing for jobs a big edge over those without equivalent university,college or vocational school education.

And higher education in the view of this administration has more than that purpose.It has as a fundamental purpose aiding people in their self development, aiding people in their pursuit of a productive,meaningful and happy life. It benefits people in the part of their lives outside the paid workplace,which is becoming an increasingly big part of people's lives with changing technology. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Finance (Dr.Collins). 3904

May 11,1984 Tape No. 1526 ah-2 MR.BARRY: This is concerning correspondence that I have received from individuals who have to purchase medical supplies, specifically 3905

May 11, 1984 Tape 1527 EC - l MR. BARRY: these are supplies required for diabetics. One gentleman says that his regular supplies in one month totalled about $130. In addition, he purchased a machine,for checking his blood sugar levels, costing $220, so his total expenditures for one particular month was $350. On that amount, he was required to pay provincial tax. • Now, I wonder if the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) has obtained representation and what the situation is at the present time with respect to provincial sales tax on the various diabetic supplies.

I know the matter has been raised before with respect to other forms of medical equipment or medical supplies, but, specifically, has the minister received representation concerning various items required by diabetics and is he prepared to see that provincial sales tax is removed where it might exist now with respect to these medical supplies? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hori. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, we have received enquiries and suggestions along that line and I have already written, in one instance, about it and I am in the process of having another letter composed with regard to another enquiry. But, in essence, Mr. Speaker, we have already taken care of thatsituation. Han. members will recall that in the budget - I just cannot put my finger right on the comment now - but in the budget we did exempt a fairly wide range of medical equipment and medications,and that type of thing, which patients suffering from relatively chronic diseases use themselves in the home.

We exempted that from retail sales tax. And I believe that, if not the total range, 3906

May 11, 1984 Tape 1527 EC - 2 DR. COLLINS: the significant range of equip- ment and medications have applied to diabetics ; it came under those deductions . And, if there are any other ones that we have inadvertently overlooked - I do not believe we have, quite honestly - but if there are any that were inadvertently overlooked in the published list 3907

!1ay 11, 19 84 Tape No. 1528 HJ - 1 DR. COLLINS: that has been sent out 1 I will be glad to receive information alonq that line and we will do whatever we can about it. ~1R. BARRY:' Hr. SJ?eaker. MR. SPIDU<ER (Russell) : The han. the member for ~ount Scio. MR. BARRY: I \'Till pass this on to the ni~ister, Mr.

Speaker, but there are a list of items ranging from a glucometer P.CK 1 elhich presumably is the instrument for measuring glucose or blood sugar levels, there is an instrn:mP.nt. r."'JJ .en an autolet, they are disposable swabs, visidex, dextrostix and many other i terns. ':•7ould the minister assure this House that he will take a look at whether the exemptions that presently exist as brouqht in in the recent budget- and the rninsiter is to be complimented 1and his department, for bringing in the exe!"\otions IIThich are there now- but 117ould the minister chec~ and ensure that these exemptions go far enough in dealing with these necessities of life for diabetics and other medical patients? ~~R.

SPEAKEP.: DR. COLLINS: The hon. the Hinister of Finance. Mr. SpeakP.r, yes,I can certainly give that unequivocal undertaking 1 but I do want to reiterate that I think l>le have already covered that list that the han. member ~entioned.

These exemptions were put in the budget, of course, upon recommendations corning for\Olard from the Department of Health 1and I am sure that the Department of Health took considerable care in trvina to cover all significant i terns tbut I certainly >I' ill have the list reviewed and we will do l>lhat is necessary if there is anything that vlas overlooked 1 which I really do not think there has been. MR. \•7ARP.EN : ~1r. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the me~ber for Torngat Mountains. 3908

r1ay 11, 1984 '!'ape No. 1528 ~!J - 2 M..~ . NARREN : Mr . Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development (Mr . Goudie) . I under<>tand that a r..erman research vessel called the Polar Stern will be doing some kind of research work ~orth of Nain ,· Maybe tbi s question could have been rli rected to the ~nister of nevelopme nt (~ .

Windsor) , But I noticed in todav's ~ap er it said that the LI.l\ '-'Ould be !'le eting with the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Dev elopment because they are quite concerned about Nhat th is ship will be doing t:ro!'!l Nain to Davis Inlet. Does the minister have any idea of •·That this ice research vessel ~·lill be doing in that area? 3909

May 11, 1984, Tape 1529, Page 1 -- apb MR. SPEAKER(Russell): The han. the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. MR. GOUDIE: Mr. Speaker, no, I do not have any knowledge of what this particular vessel will be doing in the area in terms of research. Neither do I have a request, up to when I left the office this morning, for a meeting with the LIA, other than a request to meet in June month with a combined effort of the LIA and the ICNI, dealing with aboriginal matters under the Constitution. Other than that, I have no knowledge. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister. I would like to ask the minister if this research vessel is carrying on some experiment pertaining to bringing liquified gas and other petroleum products down through the Davis Strait and down along the Labrador coast? If this does tie in with the hearings that were held in Nain about a year and a half ago, will the minister be making representation on behalf of the people who are very concerned that it may disrupt their traditional way of life? • MR. GOUDIE: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. MR. GOUDIE: Mr. Speaker, it is difficult to address one's self to not just hypothetical questions, but ques ,tions dealing with hypothetical si-tuations. 3910

May 11, 1984, Tape 1529, Page 2 -- apb MR. GOUDIE: If the experimental vessel up there is carrying on work relating to the shipment of gas or oil or whatever, then, obviously, we would have a concern about that. We have already expressed our concern, I think, a couple of years ago, in relation to the possibility of transporting natural gas, at leas~, down through the Labrador Sea to other markets in the world. My colleague, the Minister of the Environrnent(Mr. Andrews) would certainly have an interest in that. What I will undertake to do, Mr.

Speaker, is make some enquiries to find out specifically what this vessel intends to do. Perhaps it is related to the fishing industry. I have no idea, no knowledge at all. As I have said, there has been no request from the LIA at this point, not to meet with me, anyway. But I will make enquiries into the matter and I will advise the House, probably next week, now. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER(Russell): The han. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, a short supplementary to the Minister of the Environment.

I would ask the Minister of Environmenh if his department, to his knowledge, has been contacted by the operators of this German vessel, or by the Department of External Affairs, which, I understand, has chartered this vessel? Has the minister been contacted by any of those people? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of the Environment. 3 g 11

May 11, 1984 Tape 1530 PK - 1 MR. ANDREWS: Not to my knowledge, Mr. Speaker. I will take the question under advisement and check with my department, but I know nothing of this vessel. _It could be, of course, for many, many reasons from ~ fisheries to ice research. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. member for Mount Scio. MR. BARRY: In the absence of the Minister responsible for Energy (Mr. Marshall), who has stepped out somewhere, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins).

With respect to the references by the Minister responsible for Energy on this so-called Nova Scotia secret letter - ]).1R. WARREN: The minister is back. MR. BARRY: Well 1 I will direct it to the Minister responsible for Energy now since he is corning back.

I wonder if the Minister responsible for Energy would confirm as to whether this so-called secret letter is the same letter that I referred to 1 that was raised on an earlier occasion as well- I found one reference in Hansard on April 12 ? ~vhile the Minister responsible for Energy was going through the report on the Venture gas field and pointing out the conclusion that there was very little economic benefit to the Province of Nova Scotia, I pointed out that on the same page that he quoted there was an assumption there made with respect to a dollar for dollar loss on equalization. And I pointed out that Mr.

Chretien, while he was down,had made a statement to the fact that there was a special agreement on equalization. Is that agreement on equalization the secret letter to which the Minister responsible for Energy referred? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. President of the Council. 3912

May 11, 1984 Tape 1530 PK - 2 MR . MARSHALL : The reference I made was not at the time referable to any statemen "ts made by the hon. member . It was only afterwards ,because either I was not in the House at the time or I was not really paying attention to th e full import of the question - I must have been in the House but tilat had escaped me - but as I .1au said before, of .ny making a reference to a secret accord between the federal government .- and Nova scotia, that came to me from sources outside of this House and sources that I regard to be quite ;eliable, as I have already indicated in Question Period. 3913

May 11, 1984 Tape No. 1531 SD - 1 MR. MARSHALL: When we ~-.rere into negotiations with the federal government, part of the agreement"that was reached - of course, when I say 'the agreement that was reached 1 r mean the agreement that was reached before we went on to Montreal, when there \<!as a complete reversal by the federal government as to its position.- but the position quite definitively was that equalization would decrease in the same manner now as then provided in the Fiscal Arrangements Act.

The thing is the present Fiscal Arrangements Act was to expire, if my memory serves me correctly, was to expire within 3.bout three to four years, and it was realized that development would not occur until after then and it had not been determined as to what would be the arrangement under a future Fiscal Arrangements Act. So it was agreed between us that this 15 per cent maximum reduction in equalization would continue to apply to the agreement. And it was represented to us that this had already been agreed with the Province of Nova Scotia.

Now 1to my complete surprise - and, I think it is worthy of note, it came not through what the hon. member said in the House but through other sources outside the House the actual reduction is 10 per cent 1 and then th .ere is another separate agreement as well, or within the agreement there is a separate arrangement as to to when - for·want of a better word- the reduction could start kicking in 1 that this was, in fact, a secret accord between the federal government and the Nova Scotia government which was not put before us at the time but which the Premier of Nova Scotia was now anxious to have ingrained in future federal legislation.

MR. BARRY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell): MR. BARRY: 3914 Mr. Speaker. The hon. member for Mount Scio. Is the Minister responsible for

May 11, 1984 Tape No. 1531 SD - 2 MR. BARRY: Energy (Mr. Marshall) aware that within a day or two, maybe even the same day, that this report on the Venture development project was submitted and released to the public 3915

May 11, 1984 Tape 1532 EC - 1 MR.

BARRY: that Premier Buchanan of Nova Scotia made a comment to the press, which was carried in the press - I have not had a chance to check the reference. ~hich I referred to in this House of Assembly early in this session - where Premier Buchanan stated that there did exist an agreement between the Province of Nova Scotia and the Government of Canada which dealt with equalization in a way which saw less than a dollar for dollar reduction, and for that reason, Premier Buchanan pointed out, this report on the Venture development project,which the minister has referred to in a fashion critical critical of the Government of Nova Scotia, for that reason that report on the venture project was flawed, and specifically the conclusion that the net impact to the Province of Nova Scotia wastsmall to negligible'?

Was the minister aware that, in fact, far from it being a secret letter or a secret agreement, that Premier Buchanan made a public state­ ment shortly after the release of the report on the Venture project? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. the President of the Council-. MR. MARSHALL : Mr. Speaker, the report on the Venture project"came out long afteL the negotiations tnaE occurred between ourselves and the federal govern­ ment. It came out long after the Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources for Canada, at that time the hon.

Marc Lalonde, sent down to this Province,the day after it was signed, the agreement between the federal government and the Province of Nova Scotia, which he 3916

May 11, 1984 Tape 1533 NM - 1 MR. MARSHALL: purported to represent to us as representing the entire agreement between the parties. It came out long after negotiations with Mr. Chretien where it was represented that it was a 15 per cent reduction. I have no quarrel, Mr. Speaker, with the Province of Nova Scotia or what the Premier of Nova Scotia has said. It was not the Province of Nova Soctia or the Premier of Nova Scotia who made any representations to us whatsoever as to what represented the agreement. What the Province of Nova Scotia decides to do or not do is obviously its sole and entire business.

But the point that I am making is this, and I know it is a very valid point, that on the one hand we were entreated to accept an agreement which was presented to us as representing all the basic elements of that agreement and •· 7e now find that there was another accord, a supplementary or a side accord, a side agreement between the parties at the time with respect to equalization. As I say,I have absolutely no quibble with the Province ofNova Scotia as to what they do, that is entirely and absolutely their prerogative.

But it was also reported to me at the time when I received this information 1 from what I regard to be quite reliable sources or I would not bring it to this !fous.e 1 it was also ;reported to me at the time that Mr.

Buchannan, the Premier of Nova Scotia 1was very concerned over the report that had been issued on the Venture project which everyone knows styled the benefit to the Province of Nova Scotia as being from small to negligible, As a result, and in direct reaction to that report,that gentleman then referred to this side agreement because he thought that this side agreement would sweeten the deal in the eyes of Nova 3917

May 11,1984 Tape No. 1534 MR. MARSHALL: A?parently there is in Nova Scotia, and here again I do not want to enter into Nova Scotian politics, but I am just repeating ah-1 it from the point of view that there is a certain amount of ground swell of people there who feel that Nova Scotia should have acted with respect to its offshore in a more decisive, stronger way, kindred to the way the Newfoundland government has done it.

And it was for this particular reason,in my understanding,that we now have this so-called secret accord being put to the public or being mentioned; number one, to try to diminish the adverse aff~ ~n Nova Scotia of that report on the1r agreement and, secondly, also for the purposes that Mr. Buchannan,understandably 1 in dealing with the present federal administration wanted this particular provision not now left to its secret accord but wanted it in legislation, so that was the reason. Now 1whether it appears in federal legislation or not I am going to be very interested to see.

I understand it has caused both the Premier of Nova Scotia,which is regrettable because what he wants to do is his own concern in his own Province,and the federal government, which is not regrettable because they are accountable in this since they have represented something to this Province and urged us to accept something and they were not dealing- and I say this again- fair and square with us. So I hope I have answered the han. gentleman. It was after the venture agreement and that is the reason why it was put out of the venture agreement.

I think the salient point in all of this is the fact that it is very highly regrettable that 3918

May 11,1984 Tape No . 1534 ah -2 MR.MARSHALL: in negotiations of this nature that the federal government presented to this Province and urged us to accept a deal giving us the Nova Scotian agreement and in effect saying, 'Look 1 this is all we have signed with Nova Scotia,' but they subsequently tried to get us to accept that Nova Scotian deal when they flip-flopped from Mr . Chreitien 's position .

But I think it is very , very co ncern .ing , and it should be concerning for all people to know that whatever agreements with the province of Nova Scotia is both of their business , but \"hen they rep:~:esent to us that this represents and is the =ull and entire agreement and one that we should accept,and we find out af terwards that they did not give us all of the facts and all of the rest of it,it is a matter of deep and abiding concern for the people of this Province . MR. BARRY: A supplementary , Mr . Speaker . MR .SPEAKER (Russell) : Scio .

MR .BARRY : The bon. member for Mount The minister 's point is a valid point if that side agreement was entered into before January tl983,wbich 1 I be~ieve the minister would agree ,would be the last time there was any significa nt discussions with respect to L~e offshore betwee n himself and the federal minister . 3919

May 11, 1984, Tape 1535, Page 1 -- apb MR. BARRY: My question is has the Newfoundland minister enquired as to the date when this side agreement was entered into between the Province of Nova Scotia and the federal government? Perhaps that was an agreement that was entered into since January of 1983, and perhaps it is something that,if the minister has stayed at the bargaining table with the federal minister,he might have either uncovered that information,or had the same offer made to him.

And I am not saying that would be sufficient to make an appropriate agreement for Newfoundland, I would ask the minister if it is not a fact that if he had stayed at the table he would have established the date of that side agreement? As part of that question 1 I would also ask the minister what enquiries he made after this statement by Mr.

Buchanan, which appears to have been in January, as to the contents of this agreement before deciding that there was no point in continuing the negotiations or resuming negotiations on the offshore, with the federal government following the decision of the Supreme Court of Canada? MR. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER(Russell) the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker.

The hen. the President of As far as the date of the agreement, it is my understanding from the information that I have received, from what I consider to be a very, very reliable source, that this agreement had been entered into at the time, or around about the time that the Nova Scotia agreement was entered into itself, and that is what gives it its serious concern. Now, I know the hon. gentleman is hung up as well, he is asking serious 3920

May 11, 1984, Tape 1535 , Page 2 -- apb MR . MARSHALL : questions here, and I am trying to respond in a serious manner to him , but he comes into the area 'if we had stayed at the table.' Well , we had stayed at the table for as long as we could stay at the table at that period of time . We were and remain prepared to go back to the tabl~ when people deal with us in good faith, when people are prepared to negotiate an ag:reerrent. And we had negotiated an agreement, let there be no doubt about it , Mr . Chretien and I had negotiated an agreement .

It was he who said outside his office, a£ter the sixth or seventh exploratory meeting between us, that all that remains to be done is to put the ag reement in writing. It was he who told me, after he had put dO\m the telephone after having an obviously acrimonious exchange in French, which, unfortunately, I do not speak, but you do not have to speak a language to know that it was acrimonious, it was he, himsel f, sittin g down with me 3921

May ll, 1984 Tape No. 1536 SD - l r-1R. M.J>,RSHALL: who said to me, "That is.Lalonde. He is furious because he says, 'You have given everything away to Marshall in the negotiations.'" This was because he had seen the final agreement. Now, Mr. Speaker, we had gotten an agreement and we had dealt with-these ~eople in good faith, as we always have. In dealing with them in good faith and knowing that we had an agreement, we gave them our bottom line.

And the hon. gentleman know what our bottom line is but I always sum it up on the basis of equality - equal joint management and an equal chance with respect to revenue to see that the people of this Province, our young people particularly, get a chance to have an equal per capita earned income to the average of their counterparts in Canada. We had negotiated an agreement. I can feel for Mr.

Chretien, he was put in an embarrassing position, and, instead of resigning, which, quite frankly, it would not.have been necessary for me to do but I would have done it if I had been in exactly the same circumstances, he opted to stay in the Cabinet and to try to make the best of a bad deal. But the fact of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, we had seriously negotiated, come to and concluded an agreement, as the gentleman himseif said outside his office, and that, 'It just remains to put it in writing.' Subsequently, a few days later, he refused to put it in writing but that is a matter of history.

And during that period of time we had discussed these issues, including the equalization, and, as I stand here, it was represented to me that there was a 15 per cent reduction in equalization and that there was going to be a continuation of the present situation under the Financial Administration Act, notwithstanding the fact that it would have expired. Now it is equally apparent to me from 3922

May 11, 1984 Tape 1537 EC - 1 MR. MARSHALL: what I hav-a heard from a very reliable source that that was not true, that it was not 15 per cent, it was 10 per cent, and that, I would suggest to the hon. gentle­ man and to everyone, is an extremely grave and serious situation when you are dealing in that manner. MR. BARRY: respect to equalization? MR. MARSHALL: What was the offer made with As I say, 15 per cent. It was the 15 per cent reduction. The same way as the hon. gentleman knows, the Fiscal Arrangements Act as it presently exists now reads 15 per cent.

We were concerned when the agreement with respect to when the equalization agreement expires. I cannot pick the exact time now, within a year or two, whether it was 1987 or 1988 or 1989, the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) can respond to that. When that expfred, the development of Hibernia would then be underway, and there might not be any agreement with respect to equalization, and we wanted that continued. We had an undertaking that it would be continued at 15 per cent and, at the time.that we did it, it was our under­ standing that that is what had been agreed with the Province of Nova Scotia.

Now, we find differently, and I say, and I repeat again, that this is a most ominous and serious situation. The hon. gentleman, in his question, indicates that the Premier of Nova Scotia released this after the Venture study. It is very consistent to me the reason why he released it after that report, because of the embarrassment over that report itself to try to show that the deal was better for Nova Scotia than the report stated. But I hasten to add, Mr. Speaker, that that 10 per cent would not in any way sweeten the deal for this Province 3923

May ll, 1984 Tape 1537 EC - 2 MR. MARSHALL : to take the Nova Scotian agreement because the elements of .equality are not there. But the whole point of the matter .is, on a matter o£ deep concern to tnis Province, of real concern in the negotiations, we were not dealt with. by an even hand and, as far as I am concerned, from that report that we got, it is quite obvious that we were not dealt with .in good faith and we were not dealt with honestly. I do not say th.at with respect to the Province of Nova Scotia, that is 3924

May 11, 1984 Tape No. 1538 MJ - 1 MR. !Jl..ARSH.IIJ.,L: their concern ~nd I want to emphasize that,but I am talking with respect to the federal government. SOHE HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! HR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! The time for the Question Period has expired. A...l\JSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR '<'7HICH NOTICE HAS BF':f1\T GIVEN DR. COLLINS: Hr. Speaker. MR. SP?AKER: The hon. the Hinister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: ~J. Speaker, I wish to respond briefly and verbally to t~e hon. the rne~~er for Torngat Mountains (Mr.

Warren) 1 who yesterday, in my capacity as acting Hinister of Health, asked me about two matters, the Salmonella outbreak in Central Newfoundland and 1secondly, some restrictions placed on hospital visitations in Baie V~rte in regard to 2 'flu epidemic. In regard to Salmonella 1 there will be a fuller report available on Monday. Specifically I hope it will answer the hon. member's questions in regard to the cause, if the cause is determin.able,and also the numbers involved.

But I just want to say now in regard to the restrictions - .in case there is some continuing concern about that - in reqard to the restrictions, the restrictions have been liften in Gander and the restrictions now are confined just to the pediatric ward in Grand Falls. Now vlhether one can take from that that the ePidemic is declining I suppose is a matter of judgement anyway.

That · may be a reassurance to people ,,.,ho may be concerned about it over the weekend and so on until we have a chance to report more fully on Monday, but the restrict:~ ."n" J-.."'W' h">~n lifted in Gander and are now just confined to the children's 3925

l-1ay 11, 1984 Tape No. 1538 t-4-J - 2 DR. COLLINS: aspect of things in Grand Falls . In regard to the flu epidemic in the Baie Verte area , the hon. member asked about the restrictions there, I believe they to~ere put im peace " P.sterday or the day before by the medical s-taff at the hospital , They will remain in effect for about a week and L~en it wil l be reassessed by the medical staff.

In regard to the hon . member's question as to the seriousness of the thing , r think all I can say is that the medical staff did consider the incidents of influenza out there serious enough to place on visitation rest .rictions . They are not total restrictions., ilrlrl>ediate relatives can visit but not the general public. 3926

May 11, 1984 Tape 1539 PK .- 1 DR. COLLINS: But they ·will review the situation after about a week. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Before I call Orders of the Day,it is a pleasure for me to welcome to the galleries today thirty Grade XI students and three of their teachers from Appleton - Glenwood, in the district of Gander. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. MARSHALL: Motion 6. Motion, the han. Minister of Labour and Manpower to introduce a bill, "An F.ct To Amend The Shops Closing Act". Carried. (Bill No. 31). On motion, Bill No. 31, read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR.

MARSHALL: Motion 1. MR. SPEAKER: Motion 1. is the Budget Debate. It was adjourned the last day by the han. member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. warren) 1 who has ten minutes left. MR. WARREN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Yesterday when I was speaking in the Budget Debate I did allude to several concerns that the members for Bonavista North (Mr. Cross) and Twi}lingate (Mrs. Reid) did not allude to, and that is the concern that this government and its members are taking towards Newfoundlanders and Labradorians.

Now,as I said yesterday, I do not believe the picture is as rosy as both members indicated yesterday,and I am sure within the next ten minutes there will be indications that it is not all rosy. I understand Dr. Tony Gushue, a dentist , who is I think the President of 3927

May 11, 1984 Tape 1539 PK - 2 MR. WARREN: the Dental Association or involved with the Dental As~ociation,had meetings a few days ago with officials of this government, and their concern was the number of par ents who are bringing their children into the dental office ...,eL ig required to pay 150 per cent increase over the fee that they had to pay last year. As Dr. Gushue said , this is causing much hardship to the many, many families in this Province. I have to read what the Minister of Finance (D r. Collins) said in his opening Budget ' remarks under The Children's Dental programme .

Here is what be said on page 12. He said, 'Government is very proud of its ongoing programme of providing subsidized dental care to children up to the age of 13 ' · Now he said, the government are pretty proud of this. I think the government should be proud 3928

May 12, 1984 Tape 1540 NM ~ l MR. WARREN: that they were doing a subsidized dental care programme for children. He said he was very proud of it, and then in the next sentence he said, "However, I am going to jack the price up from $2.00 to $5.00." Now that is what he is proud of. He is proud because we are doing a subsidized programme for the children in this Province in dental care. "However," he said, "I think they have had enough of it. I am going to jack the price up 150 per cent." Why did not the han. member for Bonavista North (Mr. Cross) yesterday say some­ thing about that.

I am sure there are children in Bonavista North, I am sure there are children in Twillingate. No, all the two han. members decided to do was pat the Premier on the back, saying what a good government it is, and kick Ottawa. Why does not once in a while the backbenchers stand up, like the membe;r- for Bay of Islands (Mr. Woodrow) who spoke the other day about the Tory Administration, and talk about the things that ~his government is doing that is hurting the people of this Province. I believe, Mr. Speaker, regardless of what party you belong to, why do you have to toe the party line?

You were not elected to toe the party line by certain people in this Province. Nobody was. You were elected by the people to speak up for the people, to speak up and be counted, neither one of those two members I heard yesterday spoke up and condemned this government on the dental programme. They said it was all Ottawa's fault - everything that is happening is Ottawa's fault. Mr. Speaker, we need members in this House, backbenchers or Cabinet Ministers alike, who can stand 3929

My 12, 1984 Tape 1540 NM ~ 2 MR. WARREN: up and support the people who went to the polling booths on April 6 and gave the members the opportunity to come in this House and wmrk on their behalf. It is high time for them to get up and be counted. Mr. Speaker, look at Municipal Affairs again, whose dealings with the municipalities are causing hardship to over 300 communities in this P~ovince. And then the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) goes on and says, "I am pleased to announce that as of midnight tonight" - what was the date?

Let us see, March 20 - "as of midnight tonight retail sales tax will be removed from all manufacturing capital equipment." Now, Mr. Speaker, there are not too many people in the small coves and inlets in this Province who are worried abo:ilt the taxes coming off capital equipment, they are worried about the taxes on clothing. They are worried about the 12 per cent that this government has placed on clothing in this Province '. They are worrying about the 12 per cent sales tax; even if they go and get a lunch in a restaurant they have to pay taxes on it. Where were the two members yesterday?

Were they talking about the sales tax? No. Again they were talking about Uncle Ottawa, Mr. Speaker. I believe it is high time that the hon. members speak up and be counted. Where were the hon. members yesterday when we were talking about numerous other , things? Mr. Speaker, before I go any further, I have to laugh at this one. I only have four or five minutes left, but, Mr. Speaker, I am sure the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development (Mr. Goudie) is going to get up and chastise me.

However, on May 9 the Minister sent a Telex to the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans, Pie~re De Bane, saying he was protesting against 3930

May 11, 1984 Tape No. 1541 so - 1 MR. WARREN: the hunting requlations which provides that seals can only be hunted with a shotgun or a rifle with an 1,100 foot-pound muzzle energy. Now what he meant was that he was objecting against the hunting regulations that you use a shotgun or a high-powered rifle. Now, Mr. Speaker, he sent that telegram on May 9, 1984. Now have a guess when that policy came into effect? Would you think it W?-S March 9, 1984 that it came into effect? Mr. Speaker, talk about a minister being asleep for the last eight years! That policy came into effect in 1978.

In 1978 the policy came into effect and here on May 9·, 1984, exactly six years later 1 the minister decided to send a telegram and say the policy is wrong. Mr. Speaker, the minister was a minister in 1978, he was a minister of the government of Mr. Frank Moores, I believe. Surely goodness he could have requested a change then. And, Mr. Speaker, he can request the change now, by all means. I disagree with the policy,too. For some reason, it is the same thing with the fishery policy. The minister came in about a month after the telegram went and again said let us do something about it. Now, Mr.

Speaker, in my closing remarks- I am sure I am going to be given leave to continue for the next half an hour - SOME HON. ME.MBERS: Oh, oh~ MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to beg this government and beg its people that if we want to see Newfoundland and Labrador survive, if \ve want to see the people in Newfoundland and Labrador receiving a just position in society 1 then I believe that it is useless, it is pointless, for a backbencher on that side to listen to the Premier or chase the Premier around and hold on to his coattails. Why do you not take a leaf from the member for the Bay of Islands 3931

May 11, 1984 Tape No. 1541 MR. WARREN: (Mr. Woodrow)?J:nill just call him'Lukey' f or a moment , r:r,y hon. friend, my good friend from the Bay of Islands . ~ut so - 2 ~ he can get up and say that the government is not doing enough for tourism ,surely goodness the member for Bonavista North (Mr. Cross) and the member f o:r.- "'Hil lingate (Mrs . Reid) and the meml:ier for St . John's Centre (Dr . '1cNicholas) and the me.mber for Burin - Placentia West (Mr. Tobin) can get up and say, ''Look, \ve \vant this dental care plan changed. We want this gov ernment to as·sure MR.

HODDER: Every year they try to wipe it out a little more . MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, in my closing remarks I am quite pleased to see students in the galleries and many of them, I am sure by looking at them , are less than thirteen years of age . .ll,nd I know that the parents of those students 1 in order now to go and get their teeth examined by a dentist , are going to have to cough up 150 per cent more than they did last year. And I thin}: 3932

May 11,1984 Tape No. 1542 ah-1 MR.WARREN: it is a shame that this government \'lill allm ·T the parents of such people, the future of this Province such as are in the galler~· today, that their parents will have to pay 150 per cent more for dental care in this Province from now on because of this budget that the hon. Minister of Finance (Dr.Collins) has brought in and Labrador. to sock it to the people of Newfoundland AN HON.MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR.SPEAKER (Ayl ward ): Order, please!

Before I introuduce the next speaker 1 I would like to welcome to the galleries eighty grade V students and four teachers from Macdonald Drive Elementary School in St. John's. SOME HON \MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: SOME HON.MEMBERS: MR.SPEAKER: Hear, hear! Shall I call the question? Call the question. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the amendment moved by the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr.Neary) and seconded by th~ hon. member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk)? All in favour 'Aye', contrary 'Nay'. the budget. MR.CARTER: MR. SPEAKER: North. MR.CARTER: I mo ve that -the amendment is defeated.

I call the main question on Mr. Speaker. The hon. member for St. John's Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I think it is time perhaps in this debate to talk about principles for a change. There has been an awful lot of talk about policy but, I think, perhaps our policy is determined by our principles and therefore it is perhaps worthwhile to talk about principles for a change. 3933

May 11,1984 Tape No. 1542 ah-2 MR.CARTER: I make no apology for being a Conservative. I am sometimes looked upon as an arch Conservative, I am as Conservative as it is possible to be, I think, and I think it is a very defenceable position. I do not think I need to defend the position but I think it does not hurt from time to time to restate what eoncervatism stands for certainly in this Province and certainly as I understand it. And I will be very interested to see to what extent my remarks are concurred with both on this side and on the other side.

It is true that I hate Liberals; it is perfectly true, I really do. I have nothing personal against them,it is a much larger issue than that 1 but I do hate Liberals and Liberalism.Because I regard Liberalism now although possibly in the 19th century it was a workable philosophy~ I believe that it is now a bank~upt philosophy. It has degenerated into a mere stratagem for winning elections. MR. PATTERSON: MR.CARTER: In Newfoundland particularly. In Newfoundland particularly , as the hon. member for Placentia (Mr.Patterson) just said. HR.BUTT: money.

MR.CARTER: Bribe them with their own Bribe them with their own money, promise them anything but get the government, get the government at all costs. So what is my stand as a Conservative and what are Conservative principles? Well, there are eight of them in my vie~. These ar~ principles that I have taken from other authors who have written on the subject,and to me they make very sound sense and I certainly agree with them. There are eight Conservative 3934

May 11,1984 .Tape No. 1542 ah -3 MR.CARTER: principles that I think are worth enunciating. The first is that a Conservative philosophy is not a doctrinaire philosophy. \'le believe in evolution and not revolution . That is to say that change should come about gradually and slowly 1 and 1 in fact change \vill always occur . There is no way to stop change and therefore allow change to come 3935

May 11, 1984, Tape 1543, Page 1 -- apb MR. CARTER: about naturally and slowly, in evolutionary process, and not try and throw out the baby with the bath water. The second principle is that we are the trustees of our heritage, we are the trustees of our Province and not the owners of it, a~~ it is our duty to transmit our heritage to our successors at least in as good a position as it was when we found it.

That is to say, if we give away our resources now, we are betraying our decendants and, therefore, the people who went before us and gave away the Labrador power, and those who are prepared to give away tae offshore are not being good trustees of our heritage. In that regard, Mr. Speaker, although it would be a symbolic gesture, this Legislature had a great deal of power and I think it will be a very worth- while gesture at some point of looking here at a map of Labrador and the Churchill Falls catchment area.

Apparently the reservoir is called Smallwood Reservoir, and I think it is high time that was changed, because that is a continuing insult to Newfoundland, bearing in mind that it was the former Premier Smallwood who gave away Churchill Falls power to Hydro-Quebec until the year 2024. I may be alive to see that contract expire, I will be ninety-one, andif ever there was an incentive for me to live to be ninety-one, I will tell you I will grit my teeth and bow my head and just keep on living. So that is the second principle, that man is the trustee of his heritage.

The third principle is that Cb~tives believe in incentives. Those who work harder, those who contribute more should receive more. I do not think Conservative philosophy, certainly the conservative philosophy that I adhere to believes in a levelling doctrine whereby people, regardless of their effort, will all receive the same amount. 3936

May 11, 1984, Tape 1543, Page 2 --apb MR. CARTER: The fourth principle is tha·t freedom is enhanced through the diffusion of pa;v-er. It is no good saying that you can have freedom if you do not have an alternative. If, for instance, everything is controlled by the state, then what possibility is there to have any free<'iorn to dissent. And a· very good example of this is Winston Churchill in the 1930s. He was refused permission to speak on the government owned BBC in order to warn people of the danger of Hitlerism.

He was certainly free to speak in the House of Commons, in fact, he was an elected member of Parliament, but he was not given p·erl:llission to speak on the BBC during the 1930s. At that time he was a backbencher. He did not become Prime Minister until 1940, when the danger was all too apparent. But 3937

May 11, 1984 Tape 1544 EC - 1 MR. CARTER: during the period when a good public debate might have made all the difference, certainly would have made all the difference, he was refused permission, and I suggest that a government that controls everything will not be open to the dissenting opinions of outsiders. I think it is the people who dissent who are probably our greatest friends and our greatest benefactors and, in that sense, Mr. Speaker, I think that a good Opposition is probably a very worthwhile thing, but,unfortunately, we have not seen a good Opposition in this House since 1971 and it is just too bad.

Perhaps ten of us should just cross the floor. One of us could be Leader of the Opposition and another could be House Leader and we would take away these ridiculous salaries from those drones over there .and run a decent Opposition. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. CARTER: The questions then, Mr. Speaker, to the minister, could be: Why is the minister doing such a good job? Why is the Premier such an excellent Premier? Why is the Minister of Finance so wise? - sensible questions like that. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

CARTER: But seriously, government is not the first place to look for solutions; in other words, do not go spoon-feeding, encourage people to find their own solutions first. Government cannot do and should not try to do everything. Number six: 'Those who challenge institutions, not those who sustain them, must justify their position. ' In other worcls, it is up to those vrho feel that there is sor.lething w-rong t·Jith societ y 3938

May 11, 1984 Tape 1544 EC - 2 MR. CARTER: vrho -v:ant to change it, to offer their argument. 'The institutions that >•re have very often are the result of an accu,:nulated long-term .,.,isdom and should not be thrown aside. We should not have to defend our institutions. So those '"ho want to change things, let them prove it rather than t~ose who sustain them. The seventh principle is that the duty to country is more important than the duty to any one single faction and,therefore, the adherence one may have to a particular

section or particular geographical part of the country should not be as strong as one's adherence to the country as a whole. And, of course, it is getting harder and harder to be good Canadians when the Central Government at Ottawa is constantly kicking us in the face. This, I think, is a great pity and I would hope that rather than blame Ottawa, we would blame the individuals concerned.

It is far better for us to blame the Lalondes and the Chretiens and the Trudeaus of this world than to make a blanket denunciation of Ottawa, because that only will interfere with the feelings of loyalty that we should have as Canadians in the whole Canadian system, and I think it works counter to good Conservative principles. The eighth principle, that I think is probably the most important of all, Mr. Speaker, is that it is possible to pay too high a price for political power.

If the price of getting elected means that we have to give away our resources, it is not only better that we were not elected, I would suggest it would be better if we had never been born. And, unfortunately, we have seen that happen. 3939

May 11, 1984 Tape No. 1545 MJ - 1 MR. CARTER: Although it did not ''lork, it did not help the Smallwood regime one bit to give away the Churchill Falls power,nevertheless this was his intention, it was his -intention to create a flurry of jobs at any cost and to hope that this would return him to power and in that context he hurried up the Churchill Falls programme, gave away the power, signed anything, the first thing he could possibly sign ne signed, gave it all away, had a flurry of jobs, it still did not help him because I think a lot of people saw through him.

Now those are the general Conservative priciples that I adhere to 1 but I think it is important that the electors should know how an individual politician works, what he thinks is important. I think all those are generally important but I do have some particular =cerns of my m-1n. One of my most particular concerns is one about the difficulty of individuals owning land in this Province. I think it is a great mistake, I think it is very shortsighted on the part of our administration to make it impossible f.or individuals to own large tracts of land in this Province.

Now I know - and ]. am not the only person who knows him - I know an individua~ in this country who has a small holding on the Southern Shore, I do not think there is a tree within sight of his cabin and yet he dearly loves it and spends as much time down there as he possibly can. I am sure that that gentleman would like nothing better than to own fifty or a hundred acres of that area. He cannot get it. I do not suggest he has tried. I think probably he is aware that it would be no good for him to try.

It is not agricultural land, he cannot even get an agricultural lease and the government is um-1illing to give him 'a grant. Not all of the land in Newfoundland is agricultural and yet it is felt by many to be desirable 3940

~lay 11, 1984 Tape No. 1545 MJ - 2 MR. CARTER: to own large tracts of land. The government disagrees. They say, 'No, if you start parcelling out the land like that people will just sit on it, you will have absentee landlords.' My response to that is that I think the individuals would be prepared to buy land from the government, they would be prepared to put up with any kind of zoning and if necessary even to pay a tax on it to prevent people from just sitting on land and leaving it idle.

I think it is wrong and wrongheaded of the government to prevent individuals from being able to get hold of 1and to hold responsibly 1crown land or land that is now held by the government. Proof that the government is not doing a good job with the land that they do hold is the tremendous amount of spruce budworm damage that has occurred all over Newfoundland.

I say, as a small land holder myself,that a spruce budworm would have a short life on my place because if necessary I would spray it with whatever I had to spray it with to get rid of it and if I had to cut down the trees and make a bonfire of them I would get rid of it. But if'the land in ~ewfoundland were privately owned, owned by responsible individuals 1I would say that budworm infestations and forest fires and general neglect of property would be a thing of the past.

In these straightened economic times I cannot think of a better long term policy for our government than to encourage the private ownership of large tracts of land. That is where I stand. I have believed this ever since I could first think, I suppose, and I do know the joy and the pleasure of owning a few small acres of land and working at it is probably 394 'l

May ll, 1984 Tape 1546 ?K - l MR. 'CARTER: one of the greatest joys that- a per son can have, in my own personal 09inion. And I think further, that I would rather see this state of affairs come about than to see six Churchill Falls and th~~~ Hibernias succes~fully come about . So this is what I think and I think.it v ery stron gly . Now having made statements and offered some opinions ,it is perhapstime f or a few facts. And I have a few facts to give out. The Labrador Churchill Falls power is 5500 mega1V"atts. MR. CALLAN : A quorwn call. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward): Order, please ! hon. member for Belleyue. MR.

CA~: No quorum ? MR. SPEAKER : MR. SPEAKER: Is it agreed to continue? SOME H.ON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAirnR: MR. CARTER: MR . SPEAKER: two minutes . has elapsed . John ' s North . 3942 We have a quorum call by the We have a quorum , do we not? call in the members. QUORUM CALL Order, please! There is a quorum pre sent. Nay. No~ it is not agreed. It is. not agreed. You have to wait another Order, please! The time There is a quorwn present . The hen . member for St .

May 11, 1984 Tape 1546 PK - 2 MR. CARTER: I would like to end my few remarks, Mr. Speaker, with a few facts, which is perhaps unusual, it is not unparliamentary 1 I do' not think, to bring a few facts to bear in debate. It is unusual but not unheard of. The Churchill Falls power total capacity, Mr. Speaker, is rated at 5,500 megawatts.

The Lower Churchill , if it were to be brought into play would be around 1,700 megawatts, Muskrat would be about 800 megawatts ; Twin Falls is about 225 megawatts; and the miscellaneous certain headwaters that are shared w·ith Quebec would be about 1,000 megawatts, giving us a total on Labrador of 9, 225 megawatts.

In Quebec, Jarres Bay is esti.rrated at 16,000 megawatts, other underdevelooed sources at about 3,000 megawatts, other developed sources at around 10,000 rregawatts for a total of 29,000 megawatts or 1 combining the two, Labrador and Quebec power both potential and actual,gives us a total of 38,000 megawatts. And if 5,000 megawatts are worth $800 million per year,then 38,000 megawatts are worth something like $6 billion a year, or roughly the equivalent of 240 million barrels of oil per year and that is at 65 per cent load capacity. And when you remember, Mr.

Speaker, that it is now the fashion to charge customers more for capacity than for actual use,and in any case always to mix the capacity charge with the use charge,then we are talking about possibly an equivalent of 3 million to 4 million barrels of oil per year in perpetuity and even Hibernia going full steam would never bring in this amount per year. So we are talking about an enormous potential. And I think it is tragic that Quebec and Newfoundland cannot aet together and negotiate a sensible agreement for power Because the incentive is certainly there.

And I do not blame our government, I think the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) at the 3943

May 11, 1984 Tape 1546 PK - 3 MR. CARTER: end of Question Period today outlined in no uncertain terms that it was just impossible for him to deal with the present crew in Ottawa. But that crew are about to change in one way or another. I hope they change to a Conservative stripe. But in any event even the Liberal stripe is going to change and goin~ to cr>nge dramatically . 3 g 4 t~

~1ay 11, 1984 Tape No. 1547 SD - 1 MR. CARTER: I hope that maybe as a result of the pressure that these figures must put on Quebec and Newfoundland that an eventual settlement, very, very beneficial to both parties and to North America as a whole, will come about. An_ before I sit down I would like to welcome all the young people to the galleries and say that although some people suggest that laws are · ·like sausages 1 it is better not to see how they are made 7 I think perhaps it is. SOME ' HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (A yllvar

d) MR. WARREN: Thank you very much. *~.~~-The hon. member for Torngat Mountains. Mr. Speaker, I was trying to finish my remarks this morning on the vote of nonconfidence that we moved and in fact, Mr. Speaker, we were so kind to the hon. gentlemen opposite that th.e hon. minis ·ter attempted to get up but he was too ashamed to speak. So therefore, Mr. speaker, that is why my hon. colleague for Bellevue (Mr. Callan) did not speak. MR. S"IMMS: The young people in the galleries are more important. MR, li'TARREN: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I agree with the han. minister that the young people in the galleries are more important. Because, Mr. Speaker, -the hon. minister brought in a Ministerial Statement - MR, SINMS: You are misleading people. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! · MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I like to be heard i·n silence. The hon. minister brought in a Ministerial Statement today that does affect the young people as well as th.e old people because, as the minis·ter said in his Ministerial Statement, 3tarting next week we have, I think 3945

- !Jf May ll , 1984 Tape No . 1547 SD - 2 MR . WARREN: it is called, National Physical Activity Week and I am sure that Ne are going.to see all those young people in the galleries this morning 1 as well as ourse l ves , as well as the older people sho,.,ing that we are not losing the stamina tha t we had years ago . I remember \'lhen I was going to sehool, Mr . Speaker, that almost ~very sing·le day - in fa ct, it is a good thi.ng that the hon . member for Bona vista North {Mr .

Cross) spoke because he \'las my teacher ; E'he hon. member was my teacher back in 1956-and I l ived about a mile and a quarter from the school 1 and every si·ngle day I \'lould walk or run from school to the house,not only going and coming once but go back for lunch and come back again . And I would bet, Mr . Speaker, not 10 per ce.nt of the students, the boys and gir l s going to our schools today,·~ve that exercise of going to and from school if it is a mile or more becau s e we have the school buses that pick them up and drop them off .

And I am afr aid, I would like to say, Mr . ' Speaker, it is our government that has brought the school bus into being . I am afraid that,althought it is a great help in our educational system in getting our ?chool children to and from the schools 1 one thing it is doing is that it is making us a litt l e more lazy because it is not giving us the ini tia ti ve to walk or run 1 3946

May 12, 1984 Tape 1548 NM - 1 MR. WARREN: because we have the school buses, they know the sd1.ool buses are going to be there to pick them up and drop them off.

So I believe at least once a week, especially from May 13 to 23, which is next week, at least one day next week all the school boards in the Province should say to the children, "For Physical Activity Week let us walk to school, or let us walk home." I know now the students are going to say, "No way!" But I believe that would be a good move, it would be a good move on behalf of the students to show that the school buses are not going to stop us from doing our real physical activity, although I am sure in school we have the gymnasiums and things like that. So, Mr.

Speaker, we have to show that we are in as good physical health today as we were when the hon. member for Bonavista North (Mr. Cross) was a teacher. Now, Mr. Speaker, I want to get back to some other things and one is a concern that I have which has be .en expressed by emplovees of the Motor Registration Division. HR. snms: T•lhat is that? MR. WARREN: I want the hon. Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) to hear this because it is very important. The Department of Transportation is one of the highest spenders of public money in the government, Mr.

Speaker, the reason I am bringing up this is that on two occasions now I had the opportunity, and it is a very legitimate concern. I had the opportunity of visiting the Motor Registration and when you go into the inner office there is a switchboard there and there is one girl working at the switchboard. And the phone, Mr. Speaker, is continually 3947

May 12, 1984 Tape 1548 NM - 2 MR. WARREN: ringing and all the girl can say, "Hold for a minute," and then· say to the other line, "Hold for a minute," pick up another line, "Hold for a minute," because Mr. Speaker, we have people in the Province who do have problems, who do have concerns, and they call the Motor Registration for information. And they to wait as high as a half hour on the telephone because the girl there as a receptionist cannot do what is needed to be done because there is just too much for her to do.

Now I would like to ask the minister to check with employees over there and he will find out that there is another person definitely needed on the switchboard at the Motor Registration Office. It is definitely undermanned or underwomaned,whatever you want to say. ~he girl there is completely overworked and surely goodness with the Summer coming up and with so many students in the Province looking for work we can find some employment and pu~ somebody over there at least to man the phone, or woman the phone, whatever you want to say, 3946

May 11, 1984 Tape 1549 EC - 1 MR. WARREN: because, Mr. Speaker, there are customers throughout the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador who need answers they are unable to get under the present system. Mr. Speaker, in the budget, the minister announced a lot of doJ1ars for school con3truction. In fact a few nights ago, I attended a meeting of the ~ount Pearl Central High School. They have this corning year some 1,200 to go into that school and they have the classroom facilities, Mr. Speaker, but it is impossible for one gymnasium to take care of the needs of those students.

In Conception Bay South the schools are overcrowded. Mr. Speaker, in my district of Torngat Mountains, in the town of Nain, we have students who are being taught in the school corridors. There are no desks for them. They are sitting on the floors in the corridors as a result of overcrowding. so · I believe if this govern­ ment wants to spend money, let them spend it on school construction and make sure that the school children, the men and women of tomorrow, will be given the facilities by which to obtain a better education. And I believe government should be blamed for this.

They brought in Grade XII a little too quickly because, although the introduction of Grade XII was a great move, a great advancement in our educational endeavours in the Province, our infrastructure was not ready to meet the demand. Mr. Speaker, during the past number of years, there has been concern expressed all the way from Roddickton right up to Nain concerning the 3949

May 11, 1984 Tape 1549 EC - 2 MR . WARREN : International Grenfell Association . I have concerns too, Mr . Speaker . I notice that the residents of Port Saunders said no to the International Grenfell Association taking over th eir clinic . I believe , Mr . Speaker , the day has come - AN BON . MEMBER: The time is nmv- . MR. WARREN : ~ the time is now, that we should take a serious look at the question of what future role the IGA can play in our Province . I believe it is identified with Labrador and with Northern Newf oundland/ and the identification will still be there, but I believe, Mr.

Speaker, it is time to reasses s the situation and set up one Newfoundland and Labrador health board, bring it all under one umbrella . I am sure there could be improvements made in health in other part s of the Province , but major improvements are needed in the areas of Cartwright , Black Tickle , Nain and Hopedale. 3950

May 11, 1984, Tape 1550, Page 1 -- apb MR. WARREN: If there is a pregnant woman ready for delivery, or if there is someone else brought in, there is only one room. I do not think that is enough in this day and age. Mr. Speaker, I am glad the Minister responsible for Energy, or the Acting Premier is listening, because I believe sometimes he is fairly intelligent in things like this.

The han. member heard me last week but I want to repeat this again, because there may be a leaf we can take from the Ontario Legislature's book and try during the tourist season to say to people from out­ side the Province who have pu~chased clothing or anything else during that period of time, Okay, you have thirty days after you return to your own Province or country to send in your sales slips and get a refund on your sales tax. You know, it would be a real good initiative by this government to increase our tourist trade.

We may lose dollars on the sales tax, but we will encourage people to buy more clothing, more souvenirs, more arts and crafts, because the sales tax will be refunded. It is a good gesture, it is working well in Ontario. Since Ontario brought this into being some three years ag~, they have increased their tourism industry. And I did not know this, Mr. Speaker, · until a chap in Goose Bay told me about i~, how they bought some materials up there and when they got back, about a month later, they received twenty-nine dollars and so many cents back from the Ontario Government.

It is a good gesture and I am sure the Minister of Finance(Dr. Collins) , who is back in the common room, is listening to my suggestion. Now, Mr. Speaker, let us come to some other nuts and bolts in our government industries. Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro, I had the opportunity to write a cheque to them this morning, or Newfounland 3951

May 11, 1984, Tape 1550, Page 2 -- apb MR. WARREN: Light and Power, whatever you want to call them, for $235.75, and that was for electricity for last month, electricity, when people on the Avalon Peninsula were inconvenienced because of nature. And you can listen to the open line programmes, or you can listen to people talking and Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro ~s still socking it to the customers. What profit was made last year? Instead of seeing that some of this goes back into the pockets of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, where is is going?

The han. member does not know where it is going, I do not know where it is going, so, therefore - MR. S IM!'1S : Oh? MR. WARREN: - - and this is what I am coming to, Mr. Speaker, there should be a full investigation into the operations of Newfoundland Light and Power and Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro to find out what is happening, why are the people in this Province being ripped off? MR. SIMMS: It is terrible. MR. WARREN: The han. member agrees that we are being ripped off, as far as hydro rates are concerned, in this Province. MR. SIMMS: Absolutely disgusting. MR. WARREN: We are bein~ ripped off.

And why can we not have a uniform rate throughout the Province? 3952

May ll, 1984 TaJ;>e No. 1551 MJ - l HR. WARREN: vlhy is it that the peoole in Hopedale, Labrador, or in Black Tickle, Labrador, or in Burgee - Bay d' Espoir or in Ramea, '"hY is it these people, through no fault of their own have to denend on generating power with small genera tors that thev have to pay 4 6 J;>er cent more for than the people in St. John's or the people in Happy Valley - Goose Bay, who are getting the lowest electricity rate in all the Province? The peoole in Hapoy Valley - Goose Bay, and I believe in Labrador City too, are getting the lowest electricity rate in all of the Province.

I believe there should be a uniform electricity rate. There has to be a uniform electricity rate. Hr. Speaker, there should also be a uniform telephone rate. I believe, in fact, that the telephone company has come pretty close to uniformitv in their rates, but electricity rates are way out of whack, crnd this government is letting it happen. This government is letting these things happen. \-Thy? v1hy should the Minister of F~nance (Dr. Collins) allow such a catastrophe to fall on the people of this Province? The only reason, Mr.

Speaker, I beg to say, is that the minister and this government have so many flunkies connected with the Public Utilities Board and Newfoundland Light and Power and Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro that they are afraid to put their foot do~ and say that the electricity rates have to stop climbing. Mr. Soeaker, it is amazinq! ~e ~ore the electricity rates rise in this Province the ~ore profits those two big companies are making and they are making it on the backs of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians. I believe it is high time, Mr.

Speaker, that we have a hard look at Newfoundland Light and Po\'Ter and Newfoundland and Labrador Hvdro. HR • . :ii1-I...MS: MR. WARREN: Are you going to be another \-lhile yet? I will be another hour an d a half, 3953

l·!ay 11, 1984 MR . tq])..RREN : MR. SL~1S: MR . \'l]L~N : come back . Tape No . 1551 MJ - 2 or something like that. Will you \.,ait until I get back? Yes, I will wait until you Mr . Speaker, hoN can we get the people who are on able-bodied social assistance, who have no alternative because there is no employment around, or \.,e are led to believe there is no employment around, hoN can we get some of those people off social assistance? I would like to throw another suggestion to the Minister of Finance {Dr . Collins) through the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands {Mr . Power).

We have so much timber in this Province that has been destroyed by the budworm that it is practically useless for commercial needs. ~ow, Mr . Speaker, there are so many people in this Province today who have turned to wood as an alternative fuel • I am sure that I could look at the member for Bonavist .a North (~~. Cross) again as an example, I do not know if there are any other me .mbers over there , and I am sure that 3954

May 11, 1984 Tape 1552 PK - 1 MR. WARREN: the member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan) realizes it, that many Newfoundlanders and Labradorians made their dollars by the sweat of their brows, cutting wood with AND Company and Bowater Company etc. And, Mr. Speaker, we should not be too proud. I believe that is what is wrong w~th our society, we have people on able-bodies relief, able-bodied wel£are who are too proud to go and cut wood. Mr. Speaker, these people should be requested by the Minister of Social Services (Mr.

Hickey), who is paying those people social assistance to go in and cut the wood that has been destroyed by the spruce budworm, cut it for senior citizens or for other people who cannot cut it. Mr. Speaker, for doing that they can be paid X numbers of dollars and they would be doing a service for the Province. Instead, many of those people are sitting back because there is no employment . ~x. Speaker, government should encourage those people to cut that wood, and then a proper reforestation project could be started. We need it. I believe , Mr.

Speaker, the time has come when this government have to look at who really needs social assistance and who do not. MR. PATTERSON: lvho brought the shrews to Newfoundland? MR. WARREN : Hr. Speaker, I do not know who brought the shrews to Newfoundland but I can tell you one thing, I am sure that the hon. member for Placentia (Mr. Patterson) if he agrees with what I am saying this morning, and I believe he does agree but he is afraid to stand up and say it - MR. PATTERSON: What are you saying? I do not know what you are saying . 3955

May 11, 1984 Tape 1552 PK - 2 MR. WARREN: Well, Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member does not kno~1he should stay in his seat and then he would know what I am saying. MR. PATTERSON: upstairs to send it down to me. MR. WARREN: Now, Mr. Speaker, to get back I will get the translators Mr. Speaker, I would like to advise the hon. member that he should stay in his seat and act like a gentleman, which I presume he is, ~nd he would be better off. MR. PATTERSON: Tell us about the Norma and Gladys. MR. WARREN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I would be only too glad.

In fact, I will be finished with Social Services in a second and I will tell the han. member about the Norma and Gladys. Social assistance should only be paid to those who need it, to those who cannot find a job. But, Mr. Speaker, if the government could see the liaht at the end of the tunnel, this w·ood ~T~ich has been destroyed by the Spruce bud~Torm ~ITood has to be harvested, because if it is not harvested it is going to obstruct reforestation. MR. PATTERSON: (Inaudible) marketable. MR. WARREN: Now, Mr. Speaker, the han. member for Placentia (Mr. Patterson) is awful testy.

I can understand why he is testy, it is for the sane reason that I nr:M want to call a quorum. He cannot even keep his members in the House. So in view of this, Hr. Speaker, I IITill ask for a quorum call. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas) : Mountains. 3956 QU9RUM CALL Call in the members. Order, please! There is a quorum. The hon. member for Torngat

May 11, 1984 Tape 1552 PK - 3 HR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, before the quorum call the hon. member asked me about the Norma and Gladys and I am sure, Mr. Speaker, other members want to know my position on the Norma and Gladys. 3957

May 11, 1984 Tape No. 1553 SD - 1 MR. WARREN: In fact, Mr. Speaker, I had a call from CBC in Goose Bay this morning,about 8:15 a.m., asking me some questions on the Norma and Gladys, ans asking me my position. Mr. Speaker, the Norma and Gladys should never be allowed to sail the North Atlantic again. MR. WAlSH: The North Atlantic? MR. WARREN: The North Atlantic. MR. WALSH: How about the South Atlantic? MR. WARREN: No, Mr. Speaker, it should not be allowed to sail,period. Mr. Speaker, wherever the Norma and Gladys is now - where is she in Grand Bank now? MR. HODDER: . Yes. MR. WARREN: She is in Grand Bank.

I strongly suggest, Mr. Speaker, that maybe for a tourist attraction we should pull her ashore in Grand Bank and set her up. AN HON. MEMBER: Put her in Terra Nova Park. MR. WARREN: No, Mr. Speaker, do not put her in the Terra Nova National Park, No, No way. As far as I am concerned, Mr. Speaker, it is up to the federal government to make sure that there are enough tourist attractions in the Terra Nova National Park, not this government. Put her in Clarenville. MR. PATTERSON: Put her out in space. MR. WARREN: No, Mr. Speaker. If the han. member for Placentia (Mr.

Patterson) .would like to see her in space, I am sure that the han. member would like to take a trip with her. MR. PA!l'TERSON: Then we could communicate with Mars, and Venus and all of them. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I know the han. member for Placentia is awful testy,especially knowing that some 522 people from his district came into St. John's the other night to vote Liberal. However, I do not like to get distracted, Mr. Speaker. The Norma and Gladys has to be used 3958

May 11, 1984 Tape No. 1553 SD - 2 MR. WARREN: as a museQ~ and I would prefer either Grand Bank or Clarenville. That is my position, either Grand Bank or Clarenville, but definitely no way should it go into the Terra Nova National Park. I mean, that is over and done. AN HON. MEMBER: How about Nain? MR. WARREN: No, Mr. Speaker. In fact, I am glad the han. member asked me the question because this morning CBC asked me a similar question. One of the people who was interested in purchasing the Norma and Gladys was going to use her to sail back ~nd forth the Laprador Coast. M~.

Speaker, he asked me what I thought of that suggestion. I have to tell you now just in case no one hears CBC Monday morning, I have to tell you what I said.

I said, 'The people along the Labrador Coast are more interested in both governments getting adequate transportation and communications along the Labrador Coast first, that is what they are concerned about ;. not the Norma and Gladys making a trip up there. 1 And then the gentleman came back and said, 'What about if you had the proper transportation i·n place 1 then would you agree with it?' And I said, 'Under no circumstances would I agree with the Norma and Gladys going along the Labrador·coast,because the people along the Labrador Coast do not want to be responsible for the Norma and Gladys sinking and then having Air/Sea Rescue looking for the Norma and Gladys off of Smokey somewhere.

And, Ut:. Speaker, I hooe the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth C?-tr. Simms), who is anxiously waiting for my few minutes to elapse 1 3959

May 12, 1984 Tape 1554 NM - 1· MR. WARREN: can stand up and tell us MR. WALSH: I hope the minister now Would you agree that the schooner in Nova Scotia is one of the main tourist attractions? MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I have to go back to the hon. member for Menihek (Mr. Walsh). The people in Nain, their first concern is to make sure there is adaquate transportation for them to get back and forth, and then have some other boat for a tourist boat, maybe the Astron. And, Mr. Speaker, about ten days ago tenders closed on the acquisition of the Norma and Gladys. Now the minister is going to get up in a few minutes.

In fact,the minister could make headlines today. He has already tried it on his Physical Activity Week, but if he could tell us what is going to happen to the ~orma and Gladys maybe it would satisfy a lot of people in the Province. I have to sit down, I am sorry, Mr. Speaker, but~ will close up with these last remarks. I would like for the minister to take my advice and let us take the Norma and Gladys - she is in Grand Bank tied up at the wharf 1 is she? - MR. SIMMS: Yes. MR. WARREN: - Okay, back her up in the harbour, and put her on full steam ahead, and where she lands let her stay to be used as a museum.

Thank you. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas) : The hon. Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, I have been reading with some interest the speech made by the hon. member last Wednesday ; relating to the resolution presented by my 3960

May 12, 1984 Tape 1554 NM - 2 MR. S·IMMS: colleague, the member for the Bay of Islands (Mr. Woodrow),and in that,of course, he raised the same question about the Norma and Gla dy s, and Several other questions and matters that I hope to respond to in more detail during the debate on that particular resolution this coming Wednesday. I will have to keep the hon. member in suspense for another little while with respect to the Norma and Glad ys. The situation with that matter has been well publicized. The matter is in hand and a decision will be made in due course on that particular issue. Mr.

Speaker, I want to address myself more specifically to the budget debate and the question of the budget,and I do not wish to make direct comments towards specific members and what they had to say specifically in the debate because it is all very familiar, it is all old hat, it is the same stuff over and over. Even the hon. member for Mount Scio (Mr.

Barry) is caught up in that particular syndrome 1 and is repeating all the things that his leader has been saying for the last ten years, and I am sure we will hear more of it 1 because I understand the member for Mount Scio is going to have a few words to say later on. Mr. Speaker, I believe it is evident that the members of the Opposition,whose party has been in opposition now for some twelve years MR. PATTERSON: they won an election, 1966. MR.

SIMMS: No, it is eig~teen years since 1966, yes, but they have been in Opposition now since 1971/72, so they have been in Opposition for twelve years and I believe the members of the Opposition are suffering from that well-know.n disease known as Opposition Because if you ever noticed in any of the debates, 3961

May 12, 1984 Tape 1554 NM - 3 MR. SIMMS: or any comments made outside the House by any member opposite, they do one thing and they do one thing only, and I do not personally believe they do it very well, and that is criticize. 3962

May 11,1984 Tape No. 1555 ah-1 MR.CALLAN: Oppose. MR.SIMMS: No, you criticize,and there is a big difference. They criticize everything, not just the odd thing or the big issues, they criticize everything. Theycriticize the use of the private elevator and silly little things like that. But I suppose that is part of their role,at least they believe that is part of their role, but I think the people of this Province, indeed those that I talk to just about every day, say should they not also offer some alternatives and some alternate solutions to some of the issues that they severely criticize? But , Mr.

Speaker, they never do. It is always the same old thing, criticize, criticize, criticize. But, Mr. Speaker, there is an old adage that I believe in and that is that sometimes the best way to convince a person that he or she is wrong is simply to let them have their own way. And that is applicable, I believe, Mr. Speaker, in the case of the Opposition,and a tactic which I admit we have used on this side.

And I submit,also,it has been very, very successful,because they have lost the last five general elections at least and the reason,as I say, is because they constantly criticize, never offer alternatives and _in most cases at least they are always wrong. Now, Mr. Speaker, the budget presented by the Minister of Finance (Dr.Collins) I believe deserves a word of congratulations because I think he did a tremendous job in preparing and presenting his budget.And this is especially true because of the difficult economic times that we face and I believe he has the admiration of the people of 3963

-"" May 11,1984 Tape No. 1555 ah-2 MR.SIMMS: Newfoundland and Labrador for showing such responsibility when handling the public purse. We Ell know that the years 1982 and 1983, Mr. Speaker, were very, very difficult years and,to put things into perspective,! think it is fair to say that the entire Western world and 1 indeed, I guess, some countries in the Eastern block of nations have also experienced very, very difficult times as the world has slipped into perhaps one of the most severe economic recessions that we have seen since the depression of the 1930s. Mr.

Speaker, we all know that our country is influenced heavily by economic conditions in other countries,particularly in the United States. And now, even though the United States had established some economic recovery, Canada really is only beginning the long climb back up the economic ladder. And in this Province, Mr. Speaker, where our economy is so dependent on external resource-based markets,we are optimistic that the worst of this recession is behind us.

As a matter of fact,the Conference Board of the United States recently stated that Japan, West Germany, the US and Canada are leading all other countries when it comes to growth prospects. And given the fact that our Province exports a large percentage of goods to those countries,then I believe we can look forward to a brighter future. As I said, Mr.Speaker, the last two years 3964

Hay 11, 1984 Tape No. 1556 HJ - 1 MR. SIMMS: have been very, very difficult ones,but I firmly believe that the worst is over and I am sure the'people of Newfoundland and Labrador will experience better times ahead. Even though we have experienced a very difficult economic recession, I believe and I am proud to say that this administration has lived up to its responsibilities as a government, Hr. Speaker, while at the same time establishing a sound fiscal policy. We have been able to do this without running up exorbitant deficits,and we have been successful in maintaining our present credit rating while doing so.

Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for some of our sister provinces. As a direct result of spiralling deficits during the past tTIIO years, British Columbia, Hanitoba, Quebec, New Brunswick, and Nova Scotia all have experienced a dmmgrading in their credit ratings. The simple fact that this Province has been able to maintain its credit rating is proof, I believe, that we do have the confidence of the international economic community.

I also believe that we have the confidence of the local business community in Newfoundland and Labrador and that is evidenced by the comments in the Board of Trade's News and Views paper which says and I quote, a quote from the Board of Trade in St. John's,and it is headlined, "A Sensible Budget:' "The Board of Trade has endorsed the provincial government's budget for 1984 as a reasonable and responsible approach to fiscal policy, one that reflects current economic realities.

The Board's reaction to the budget was an indication that the approach taken by government to the real problems they are facing was the kind of approach we are looking for. One could quibble endlessly over the specifics of the budget~' - as we often see the Oppos~tion do - "However, as we are seeing with the reaction from labour, the essential points would likely be missed." 3965

May 11, 1984 Tape No. 1556 MJ - 2 M..~. SIM?-i.S: They go on to say, "Soc iety must live within the limits of its economic resources and for the time being Newfoundland 's economic resources are simply not able to keep up with the demands being placed on it . Consequentl~ those demand s have to be reduced. ~~ far as deficits are concerned,certain political leaders in Newfoundland appear to not understand the reality of the situation.'' Mr. Speaker, that is the response of the St. John's Board of Trade representing the business co~~unity in this area. They say the l'l..ini ster of Finance (f'r .

Collins) presented a very, very sensible budget and I believe that ~o~e have consistently illustrated, as an administration, Mr. Sl?eaker, that 1-1e are living up to the responsibilities as the government of this Province. Since 1980 we have realized a 62 per cent increa se in expenditure in the areas of education, health and social welfare. We have been able to successfully respond to the social needs of the people of the Province, I believe,in spite of the fact that we have gone through a very difficult economic time . 3966

May 11, 1984 Tape 1557 EC - 1 MR. SIMMS: And this government, Mr. Speaker, as evidenced by the Budget Speech presented by the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) ,anc as has been enunciated on numerous occasions by other members of the government, will continue to respond to the social and economic needs of all Newfoundlanders and Labradorians. We have witnessed the revitalization of a new high school system, we have hospital construction completed in Port aux Basques and underway in Clarenville and Bonavista.

We will see the start of a new hospital in Salt Pond on the Burin Peninsula, and,I am happy to say, planning will continue for the redevelopment of the Central Newfoundland hospital in the district of Grand Falls. As the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth, Mr. Speaker, in this administra- tion, I am also extremely proud of the fact that we consider it very, very important to support cultural and artistic endeavours, and this we must do, I believe, if the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador is to prosper and mature as a unique part of this country. Mr.

Speaker, there are four key elements to the 1984 budget strategy as presented by the Minister of Finance. First of all, this govern- ment is committed to reducing the current account deficit; secondly, we intend to reduce this deficit but, at the same time, avoid major new tax measures and major tax increases; thirdly, we are implementing a broadly-based expenditure restraint programme; and, finally, we are introducing measures to promote economic activity and encourage private investment. ~"'~0"'7 J...,b

~.: May 11, 1984 Tape 1557 EC - 2 MR. SIMMS: I am totally supportive of the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins), Mr. Speaker, when he says we cannot permit a trend of escalating deficits to develop. We must do everything in our power to ensure that deficits are reduced. If we did submit, Mr. Speaker, and our deficit began to rise, we could very well find ourselves in a similar position to that of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Quebec, Manitoba and British Columbia. However, Mr.

Speaker, while rising deficits are unacceptable, so too are heavily increased taxes and, as a result, this government took the responsible position of avoiding new tax measures and major tax increases. So how do you go about decreasing t.he deficit without major tax increases? ~'I ell, Mr. Speaker, by implementing an expenditure restraint programme Government has acted responsibly and, for the most part, the budgetary levels will remain the same as they were in 1983. One-half million dollars, Mr.

Speaker, has been allocated to start various planning studies associated with recommendations made to government by the Royal Commission on Hospitals and Nursing Homes, and I know that the people of Newfoundland, particularly out in Central Newfoundland of which I can speak ~vi th some authority, are very, very pleased with that news. I think we have acted responsibly, Mr. Speaker, while implementing that restraint programme. For example, while trying to avoid layoffs in the Public Service, different departments are holding staff allocations as they become vacant.

The salary costs of about 150 positions will be saved through not filling additional positions as they become vacant. But, at the same time, there will be no large scale across-the-board layoffs. 3968

May 11, 1984 Tape 1557 EC - 3 MR . SIMMS: In dealing with the social sector, Mr. Speaker, there are many other very, very positive programmes which you never hear about, espec­ ially from the Opposition . There is $25 million that will be made available to the municipalities throughout the Province through a systa~ of guaranteed loans . This money, I believe, will go a long way in assisting councils to establish such things as water and sewer programmes and street construction and paving programmes.

The budget has provided for a substantial increase in the shelter allowance for social assistance recipient s, in fact , an increase on the average of about 65 per cent . SOME HON . MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR . SIMMS: Mr . Speaker , time does not permit me to outline 3969

May 11, 1984 Tape No. 1558 SD - 1 MR. SIMMS: ali the positive social aspects of this budget, but I am extremely proud of the fact that this administration has been able to significantly increas-e s·pending in the social sector while at the same time following a policy of social, responsible, and sensible fiscal management. Mr. Speaker, this brings me to the major thrust of the budget and that is, namely, the introduction of measures to promote economic activity and encourage private investment. This government has undertake ,n a number of initiatives. The retail sales tax, Mr.

Speaker, has been removed from all manufacturing capital equipment purchased for the use of manufacturers in the Province. Members of the Opposition frequently say, oh, that is nothing, that is no big deal, but I as ·sure members opposite that that is a very positive step forward and will undoubtedly encourage industry to expand and upgrade equipment in the manufacturing sector. In fact, I hope it will be of ·particular significance to Central Newfoundland, as· it applies to Abitibi-Price. And I believe this measure will help encourage the growth of secondary industry all throughout Newfoundland and Labrador.

Als-o, Mr. Speaker, this budget allows for a 2 percentage point decrease in the corporate income tax,wh±ch also is a very positive measure, and this will undoubtedly provide encouraaement, I believe, to the private sector. We also provided incentive and protection to small businesses in the Labrador West area of the Province by lowering the retail sales tax. Government has decided, as well, Mr. Speaker, to continue the programme whereby the rate of retail sales tax on building supplies will remain at 8 per cent.

This will continue to provide incentive for the construction industry and will go a long way in helping our recovery. So all in all, Mr. Speaker, these 3970

May 11, 1984 Tape No. 1558 SD - 2 MR. SIMMS: tax reductions are very, very significant and I am sure they will meet their objectives. But again, unfortunately, the Opposition never ever point to the positive features in any of our programmes. We stimulate the economy in other areas: More than $15 million on an expanded h~~hway and bridge reconstruction and rehabilitation programme; $21 million to be spent on upgrading our secondary roads and constructing new bridges. A total of $39. 7· million will be spent on highways through various cost shared programmes with the federal government. This activity alone, Mr.

Speaker, will create some 7 ,60.0 jobs for Newfoundlanders and Labradorians during this coming Summer. With respect to the Marystown Shipyard ,the budget calls for the construction of an ice class ferry at an estimated cost of $8 million; $17 million has been allocated for the construction of the new Institute of Fisheries · and Marine Technology; $90 million will be spent on the Cat Arm hydro project this year; $55 million on a capital programme for the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation during 1984/85. And, Mr, Speaker, as I sard earlier, again I could go on and on.

But I think it is sufficient to say that th .e government is certainly contributing signi ·ficantly when it comes to providing some stimulus · to the economy of the Province. Now, Mr. Speaker. . I want to reiterat:e what has been already said by the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins-)_ with respect to our offs ·hore resources. In recent months there has been a lot of attention given to the opinion that the economic hardship experienced in this Provi~ce during the past two years is directly related to a lack of development of this Province'·s offshore resources. I submit, Mr. Speaker, that that is not the case.

As is the situation in other areas of Canada, we are heavily dependent on economrc recovery in other countries, particularly the United States, 3971

May 11, 1984 Tape 1559 PK - 1 MR. SIMMS: and I believe we can look forward to ·a very bright ecomomic future as markets once again open up. But, Mr. Speaker, we must not neglect or ignore the question of development of our offshore oil and gas deposits. If we are to expand our economic base and in turn develop as a viable, contributing partner to this country, then we must ensure that all of the natural resources of our Province be developed so as to provide maximum social and economic benefits for the residents and people of the Province.

The Supreme Court of Canada re~ently handed down what we all recognize as a narrow legal opinion,that Newfoundland and Labrador does not own the resources off the Coast of this Province, but, Mr. Speaker, I still maintain that regardless of any strict legal ruling one fact remains clea~ if Newfoundland and Labrador had not joined Canada in 1949 1 the federal government would have no legal claim to those resources. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR.

SIMMS: The Province brought the great wealth of the Grand Banks into Confederation and therefore there is a maral and ethical consideration, I believe,to be addressed here. I would just like to read a quote from an editorial, Mr. Speaker, with respect to the Province 's ongoing efforts to get a fair share from those resources. It comes from a paper in Grand Falls, The Grand F·alls Advertiser. It talks about the Premier's ongoing efforts and his fight,and it says, 'If the record'­ this was after the decision was announced - MR. CALLAN: brother? MR.

SIMMS: Was that written by your No, it was·not written by my brother. This was written by the editor,I presume,of The Grand Falls Advertiser. 'If the record is any indication, 3972

May 11, 1984 Tape 1559 PK - 2 MR. SIMMS: Premier Peckford will continue undaunted in his effort to educate the unenlightened and 1 to this hour,those not wanting to be enlightened on this Province's argument. And maybe in the long run he will pay quite a price for what he is doing, as some suggest.' SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMS: 'However, as we see it he has little choice. He is fighting in the best interest of the Province and its people. Newfoundlanders,therefore, owe him their support. ' SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMS: Mr.

Speaker, the moral and ethical consideration that I referred to I believe is based on equality. And if we are to be treated as equal partners in Confederation,then we must be treated in the same manner as those Prairie Provinces were back in the 1930s. Those provinces and the federal government of the day worked co-operatively to realize a constitutional amendment that gained control of the natural resources for those Prairie Provinces, thereby granting the Prairie Provinces equal status within Confederation. And, Mr.

Speaker, if we are to receive fair and equitable treatment as a Province we should not expect any less. In fact, Mr. Speaker, we cannot settle for less than what can only be described as equality. Mr. Speaker, f.uture prosperity and a strona economic base depends on getting a fair share of those revenues, and this government is determined to see the resources on the Grand Banks of Newfoundland developed so as to provide maximum benefits for the residents of this Province. And I say to members of the Opposition, Mr. Speaker, 3973

May 11, 1984 Tape 1559 PK - 3 MR . SIMMS : I will give them a little quote , a quote from Mark Twain, because they can try and try all they want to deter us from wt~t we know is right. Mark Twain once said, 'Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions, small people always do that' . And I suqgest, Mr . Speaker, that quote of Mark Twain~s is very, very applicable in the case of the Opposition . Mr . Speaker, the bud get we are debating today is proof positive that 3974

May 11, 1984, Tape 1560, Page 1 --apb MR. SIMMS: this administration has set a sound and stable course for this Province's economic future. We have received favourable responses from the business community, as I alluded to earlier, with respect to this particular budget, and the St. John's Board of Trade has expressed its approval of government's economic policies, as has the Scienc~ Council of Canada. So in all, Mr. Speaker, I think it is fair to say that we have acted in a responsible manner when providing for the future of Newfoundland and Labrador. And I say to the member for Port au Port(Mr.

Hodder), who is smarting over there, of course, smarting because he is the leader of the Turner camp, in the leadership campaign in Newfoundland he is John Turner's right-hand man, right-hand organizer, and the rnern!:er for Stephenville(Mr. Stagg) will now be able to add this particular little political excursion of the member for Port au Port to him ongoing list of defeats. He is the leader of the Turner forces, and what has happened in Newfoundland with respect to the electio~ of delegates, Mr. Speaker, for the Liberal leadership?

Chretien has outdone Turner two to one, and one for John Roberts, of course, the member for Torngat Mountains(Mr. Warren). And then again, of course, a recent poll this morning shows a big, big change from what it was a few days ago. The Tories are back on top again, shows a Carlton University poll. The Tories are back on top again. MR. BARRY: Do you call that a big change? MR. SIMMS: Well, a big change to what the Tories were in the Gallup poll. MR. HODDER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER(Aylward): A point of order, the hon. the member for Port au Port. 3975

May 11, 1984, Tape 1560, Page 2 -- apb MR. HODDER: I would just like to point out to the han. member that there was a poll done recently in the Province which showed that with eight here and forty­ four o.ver there, we are fifty/fifty. MR. SIMMS: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER(Aylward): To that point of order, the hon. the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. SIMMS: To that point of order I say this, Mr. Speaker, whenever wise men speak it is because they have something to say, whenever fools speak, it is because they just have to say something.

That is what I suggest the member for Port au Port(Mr. Hodder) has just done. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order,I rule there is no point of order. The han. the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. SIMMS: Now, Mr. Speaker, the han. member is obviously trying to use up my time because he cannot stand the devastating attack and criticism of the Opposition. SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave. MR. SIMMS: Since I.have a bit of leave, Mr. Speaker, I want to allude to some of the latest scenarios, political developments being talked about on the Opposition side .. Do you want to hear some of these latest scenarios?

Bill Rompkey resigning his seat in Grand Falls - White Bay Labrador to go to the Senate. Now, that is an old rurnour from about a year ago, but somehow it has gotten pushed aside lately for various reasons. Now, 'Ed Roberts' is going to run in Bill Rompkey's seat of Grand Falls- White Bay­ Labrador, thereby opening up a safe seat for 'Leo Barry' from Mount Scioto run in, 'Ed Roberts''seat, the Strait of Belle Isle. Now, that is one scenario. MR. BARRY: I will run in Grand Falls. l·1R. SIMMS: I would welcome you, my friend, I would welcome you. I would have to spend two days in the district then. 3976

May 11, 1984, Tape 1560, Page 3 -- apb MR. SIMMS: Here is the other scenario, 'Ed Roberts' resigning to go to the Senate, and 'Leo' going to the Strait of Belle Isle, provincially, or just 'Bill' going to the Senate and 'Leo' running federally for the Liberals in Grand Falls - White Bay - Labrador. MR. WALSH: Come on down! MR. SIMMS: But I say to the hon. the member for Mount Scio(Mr. Barry) if he is considering that, and he is thinking about that so-called poll that was done for him, do not forget that poll was done with him as a potential Tory candidate. MR. WALSH: That is right. MR. SIMMS: Here is another one.

Here is another one. MR. HODDER: Tell us about your poll. MR. SIMMS: Listen now! 'Steve Neary' resigning and going to the Senate and 'Leo' then running in LaPoile. MR. BARRY: That one makes sense. SOME . HON. MEMBERS: Hear{ hear! MR. SIMMS: MR. HODDER: of thern. MR. SIMMS: about polls. MR. BARRY: MR. SIMMS: a poll. MR. HODDER: accurate. MR. SIMMS: There are all kinds of them. They are trying desperately We know you have done polls. Tell us the results You know what John Diefenbaker said The member does not like his polls. My polls? I did a poll. Yes, I did If you did a poll it would not be very Oh, no?

Seventy per cent support is fairly accurate, in my opinion, even if it is out 10 per cent. MR. BARRY: That must have been a poll of your executive. 3977

May 11,1984 Tape No. 1561 ah-1 MR. SIMMS: Hr. Speaker, it is obvious that they are trying desperately to find a seat for poor old Leo, a seat where he can run and maybe just be successful in taking over the leadership of the Liberal Party. Here is another bit of news: There is no question now ~t Ridmurl Cashin running for the leadership of the Liberal Party, no question in the world.

I am aware from a very, very reliable source, a well-to-do fisherman in this Province who received a phone call from Richard about four or five days ago .only, four or five days ago, and he wanted to know if this fisherman would offer him his support if he ran for the leadership of the Liberal Party in Newfoundland and Labrador. And the fisherman,after about two seconds consideration said, no, n-o. 'I am a Progressive Conservative fisherman.' And I suspect, Mr. Speaker, there are literally thousands and thousands of Progressive Conservative fishermen in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador today. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: MR.BARRY: MR.SPEAKER (Russell): Scio. MR.BARRY: Hear,hear! Mr. Speaker. The han. member for Mount Mr. Speaker, I am very disappointed to see the member sit down without going a little more into those polls that he is having carried out. I was interested to hear the member for Menihek (Mr.Walsh) discuss the poll that was carried out with respect to myself. Was that in the district of Grand Falls - ~'7hi te Bay - Labrador: MR. WALSH: Yes, and you would run for the Tories. SOME HON. Mm".BERS : Oh, oh! MR. BARRY: I knm11 that a poll was being done but I could not await the results of that before 3978

May 11,1984 Tape No. 1561 ah-~ MR. BARRY: MR. WALSH: MR. BARRY: MR. SHillS: against you versus Rompkey. taking my decision. Five to one. Five to one? You against Rompkey, five to one MR. WALSH: I was voted second as a Tory. Jls a Tory ncM, and I vms second. MR.BARRY: Just imagine what it would be against the member for Menihek (Mr. Walsh). I am being very,enticed by that thought that has been put out here. (Inaudible) by the polls in that regard yet? MR. BARRY: No, but there are many useful suggestions being put forward here today, Mr. Speaker.

That is why I was very disappointed to see the member for Grand Falls (Mr. Simms) sit down. I was very interested in his comments on this recent poll which he took as being satisfactory for Mr. Mulroney and the federal Conservatives. MR. SIMMS: I said it was a significant r.han ge showing the increases the Tories ha ve compared to what Gallup said 'lle have. MR.BARRY: I think we would have to conclude that even· the Carlton Univer~ity poll shows that there was something drastically wrong with the second last Gallup poll.

The last Carlton poll and the last Gallup poll seem to be very close in terms of indicating that there could be a horse race, there could be a horse race , Mr. Speaker, 3979

May 12, 1984 Tape 1562 NM - l MR. BARRY: in the next federal election. And, Mr. Speaker, if there is a horse race 1and 1 you know,I have to say that as an individual who decided to commit himself to provincial politics, the member for Menihek (Mr. Walsh) will breathe a sigh of relief at that point MR. WALSH: No way. MR. BARRY: - that one has to keep an open mind as far as what might happen federally but, Mr. Speaker, the very least thing that these recent polls would indicate, or should indicate to government, is that they shoul~ not put all their eggs in the basket of Mr. Mulroney being the next prime minister.

SOME HON. MEMBERE: I did not say he was. MR. BARRY: Now, Mr. Speaker, I wonder about that last Gallup Poll and maybe even the last Carlton Poll 1 DiG the Premier have a sneak preview of the Carlton poll or was it out when we had his statement yesterday that. "Mr. Chretien is not all that bad a guy." We have sat here, Mr. Speaker, and the day after Mr. Chretien was down, we had the Minister Responsible for Energy (Mr. Mars~all) get up and Mr. Chretien was blamed for everything from a breakdown of the offshore oil and gas negotiations to the outbreak of salmonella in Grand Falls and everything in between.

Every ill of the Province was laid on Mr. Chretien's doorstep. Now we see, Mr. Speaker, a change in tactics. And the Premier, you know 1we have to give him his due, he has shown himself to be one who has been able to sniff out the winning side in federal elections. And we saw the Premier indicate this when he tore very serious strips off Mr. Clark in the course of the federal ele.ction which the Premier suspected Mr. Clark was not going to win. 3980

May 12, 1984 Tape 1862 NM - 2 MR . BARRY: So the Premier has shown himself to be an astute analyst of the federal scene . Now I wonder if this sudden S\o~itch by the Premier indicates something about his analysis of the next federal election. Do we all of a sudden have a situation where government is realizing it is not safe to continue with their stategy of putting all their eggs in the basket of Mr . Mulroney being elected as Conservative Prime Minister.

Members on this side of the House have warned themself hoarse recomme nding, advising, urging that go vernment conside r getting back to the : negotiating table. And; Mr. Speaker, we have had the Premier, we have had the Minister responsible for Energy (Mr . Marshall) saying , "No way . It is a waste of time . It is useless talking to atl those fellows . But everything is going to solved when there is a change of government in Ottawa." Now I wonder, Mr. Speaker, · whether this sudden change in stance , how much is that due to an analysis that maybe Mr.

Mulroney is not going to win, and how much is it due to this other factor, Mr. Speaker, the other factor, Mr . Speaker, 3981

May 11, 1984 Tape No. 1563 SD - 1 MR. BAR..~Y: that even if Mr. Mulroney were to win, the statements that he has been making or not making , depending upon your point of view, the conflicting statements coming out from Mr. McGrath and Mr. Crosbie 1 all of a sudden that too would indicate it might not be safe to put all our eggs in the basket of the next government being Tory in Ottawa. Now, Mr. Speaker, maybe there is hope yet ,with respect to the strategy being adopted by members opposite on the offshore. Maybe they will, ·Mr.

Speaker, agree to go back.to the bargaining table with the federal government on the offshore. Maybe, Mr. Speaker, we will not have to wait until the next federal election. Maybe on June 17 - the convent±on is th .e 16th, r think AN HON. MEMBER: Yes. MR. BARRY: - we can expect that a communique will go from the Premier or the Minister responsible for Energy CMr. Marshall). to the next Liberal Prime Minister of Canada, and members of this side of the House, Mr.

Speaker, strongly recommend that that letter be drafted today, that we have that letter drafted and ready to go out - leave the date open or put in June 17 now 1 Ml7. Speaker - we would strongly recommend that the Premier and the Minister responsible "for En -ergy consider the day after tn .e L±beral leadership convention 1 when we have anoth .er Liberal Prime Minister of Canada ,that there be an invitation go forth for the resumption of negotiations , a recommencement of negotiations with respect to the offshore, And,·Mr.

Speaker, I am sure if that is done that within a month ,, I am prepared to put it on the line and say tnat within a month ., whether it be Mr. Chretien or Mr. Turner , tnat th.ere could be an agreement on the offshore, within a montn. Now, Mr. Speaker, the Minister responsible for 'Energy got up earlier tYli 's morning and raised serious doubts about the good faith . of .M:r . Chretien in terms 3982

~-1ay 11 , 1984 Tape No . 1563 so - 2 MR . BARRY : of \-lhat was revealed abo ut the Nova Scotia agreement . Now it seems to me that there is some serious division of opinion here . The Premier ,on the one hand ,out ef Ottawa is saying that Mr . Chret ie n is not all that bad, he should be able to talk to Mr . Chretien once Mr . Trudeau is gon e. Now how do \ole expect th e Premiel. to be able to talk to Mr . Chretien if the Minister responsible for Enerqv (Mr . Marshall) is accusinq.Mr. Chretien of outright fraud 'at the very minimum? MR . MARSHALL : I see . MR . BARRY: You see. It sounded more like a fraudulent attempt to get the Newfoundland gove rnment to sign an agreem e.nt without 3983

May 11, 1984 Tape 1564 EC - 1 MR. BARRY: fully knowing what was on the table which had been signed for Nova Scotia. Now, Mr. Speaker, that to me, does not appear consistent with an indication by the Premier that he would be prepared to go back to the bargaining table - I hope that is what he is saying- on June 17, the day after the Liberal convention. Now, Mr. Speaker, I understood that I was to speak for only ten minutes and adjourn the debate. I am not sure if the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) is ready or if the Minister of Finance (Dr. Colli~

s) is going to propose the loan bill, but I understand that we are going to move on to adjourn the Budget Deba