VOL. 3 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD 10:00 a.m. - 1:00 p.m. FRIDAY, JUNE 26, 1981 NO. 68

June 26, 1981 The House met at 10:00 A.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape No. 2819 NM - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please~ STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased .to inform the House that negotiations have been successfully completed with the Aluminum Company of Canada to extend the Special Fund for a two year period to assist dependents of deceased workers at the former fluospar mine in St. Lawrence. MR. NEARY: A good Liberal concept,boy . . I negotia-ted that. MR.

DINN: The fund to which government and the company contribute 50 per cent each was set up in 1971 and was due to expire on 30th. of June this year. The amount involved is a maximum of $120,000 annually. The fund was originally recommended by Alcan in its brief in 1969 to the royal commission investigating radiation, compensation and safety at the fluorspar mine. MR. NEARY: Set up by a Liberal Government. MR. DINN: The fund will continue to be administered by a registrar appointed by the Worker's Compensation Board.

In making this announcement I would also like to acknowledge the· continued moral and financial responsibility shown bv the Aluminum Company of Canada in supportinggovernment'sprogramme to assit workers and dependents who have suffered as a result of working in the St. Lawrence mines. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Grand Bank . 7532

June 26, 1981 MR. THOMS: Tape No. 2819 NM - 2 Thank you ver y much, Hr. Speaker. MR. r-IORGAN: v7hat is wrong with your spokesman on labour? MR. THOMS: The spokesman on labour has been kind enough to let me reply to this particular one even though it is in his shadow because of course St. Lawrence is in the district of Grand Bank. And I must say I am very pleased to hear the minister's statement. MR. NEARY: MR. THOMS: They are just continuing a Ljberal programme. And those in St.

Lawrence who are dependent, even though the compensation is very low, it is very welcomed and there was a lot of concern whether or not the programme was going to be extended. And I am very pleased, on behalf of the people of St. Lawerence, to see that we now do have an extension of this programme. A programme, Mr. Speaker, whlch I understand was first implemented and negotiated by the Liberal Government of this Province and in particular by - MR. NEARY: MR. THOMS: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. THOMS: By me, I did the negotiations. - the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary). Hear, hear! Having said that, Mr.

Speaker, I am very pleased to hear theannouncement from the Minister of Labour and Manpower. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : MR. MORGAN: Hear, hear! Further statements? The hon. Minister of Fisheries. Mr. Speaker, just a very brief statement this morning on fisheries but it is an important one to fishermen. I am pleased to announce that the Fisheries Loan Board has adopted a new policy for fin~n~ i.ng, for the first time in our Province, of outboard motors for fishermen. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 7533

June 26, 1981 Tape No . 2819 NM - 3 MR. MORGAN: This decision, Mr. Speaker, was taken in response to representations front fishermen around tbe Province and more particularly from the Fishermen's Union and there are five guidelines outlined for the fishermen with regard to obtaining these loans. One,of course 1 is to qualify under current regulations .. The outboard motor must be used in a vessel which has a comntercial fishing vessel licence. The loan terms will be for a maximum period of three years based on the cost of these motors. The loans are to be insured. 7534

June 26,1981 Tape No. 28:l0 ah-1 MR. MORGAN: Only one loan will be made to each individual fisherman within a three year period, the period to pay back the loan. Mr. Speaker, I am sure that this new policy will be a benefit to fishermen not only along the Labrador coast but also around and throughout the coast of the Island portion of the Province. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MR.SPEAKER (Simms): The Leader of the Opposition has approximately one minute. MR. STIRLING: Thank you, Mr.Speaker. We certainly welcome this addition. The Fisheries Loan Board has been in a mess for years.

This kind of thing had been asked for fishermen for a long time. It has.had political interference, it has had the worse kind of management by the government. The have now appointed a new board. They keep trying to blame things on the board and they have tried to pass their responsibilities now over to the banks. And,· Mr. Speaker, I can tell you that the next major problem facing the loan board will be as the result of the government trying to back out of their guarantees and their subsidies and turning it all over to the banks.Now, Mr.

Speaker, we should use this opportunity~ If they really want to do something of benefit for the fishermen 1 the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) should 1 instead of waiting for years and years like he has done with this,because this is long overdue, he should now take a look immediately at the policy of taking that away from the control of the banks immediately, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKR: MR. MORGAN: The hon. Minister of Ffsheries. Mr. Speaker, I would like to respond to the statement made , Mr. Speaker.

I want to assure the House and to assure all fishermen that the Newfoundland government is not going to be withdrawing 7535

June 26,1981 Tape No . 2820 ah-2 MR. MORGAN: any subsidies from the fishermen through the loan board. The only ~·lithdrawal of subsidies is in the case of the federal government who has now reduced the subsidies of boats from thirty -five per cent down to twenty­ five per cent. We intend to maintain our subsidies, to ma .intain our assistance and to work with the fishermen and the Fishermen's Union of our Porvince. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.STIRLING: A point of order. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): A point of order has been raised by the hon. Leade.r of the Opposition.

MR. 'STIRLJ:NG: I did not ask any que .stions, Mr. Speaker, and it appears that ministers - MR.MORGAN: You made untrue statements. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please~ A point of order. The hon. Leader of th.e Opposition. MR. STIRLING: Yes, Mr. Speaker. The minister, on the nod from the .President of the Council (~1r . ~1arshall) , seems to have now agreed to a change in orocedure. The occasional time that a minister got up has now been changed to the time that a minister gets up every time. we did not ask any questions, we made some suggestions.

But it seems a new procedure now that ministers will have two cracks at a Ministerial Statement and we do not have the opportunity to respond. MR. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER: of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker. To the point of order. The hon . President I just want to say it is Frida~ and the wee .kend is coming 7536

June 26, 1981 Tape 2821 EC - 1 MR. MARSHALL: and I do not know why the hon. member wishes to attack me on it,and nods, but the fact of the matter is that I had thought the hon. gentleman asked a ri1etorical question that he did not express as sometimes he says things that he is not really expressing. MR . SPEAKER (Simms ): To the point of order, there is no point of order. I would like co ask hon. members to join me in welcoming this morning to the Speaker's gallery, the Secretary of the Vermont Agency of Environment, Secretary Brendan Whittaker,and his wife, Dorothy, who are seated in the Speaker's gallery.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Further statements? The hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. POWER : Mr. Speaker , yesterday evening one of the 4-engine DC-4 spray planes was called out to treat Block 217. While on route to this area, the spray plane developed trouble in engine one. Smoke and flames were detected, necessitating action by the flight crew. To prevent loss of altitude and a possible crash, the plane was forced to jettison its load of 2,600 U.S. gallons of matacil spray mix . The area in which this occurred is thirty-five miles West of Gander in the vicinity of Sunday Lake. Mr.

Speaker, I have a map that I can either table and show,or I can show you·now exactly where that area is in Gander. Spray block 217, Mr. Speaker, is down here near Nillertown and Sunday Lake is OV-9!: :here :1c.:::.z .apray block. 211 - Sunday Lake, where the spray was actually 7537

June 26, 1981 Tape 2821 EC - 2 MR. POWER: jettisoned. We can table the map and we will have copies of a smaller map for all members later on. The time was approximately 8:00 P.M. The aircraft immediately returned to Gander and landed safely. Upon landing and arrival at a loading area, it was noted that some residual insecticide was still leaking from the aircraft. The standard procedures were immediately followed to contain this material, decontaminate it and clean the area. Because of the approach of darkness, no evaluation of the dump site was possible.

All environmental agencies and the Canadian Coast Guard were notified according to the contingency plans and given pertinent information as is standard procedure in these matters. Plans were made to do a reconnaissance of the area in the morning to evaluate the dump site and carry out the necessary clean up procedures. This morning, Mr. Speaker, officials from this department and the Department of Environment have gone out to evaluate the conditions in the affected area. Any other measures will depend on field observations and recommendations of this evaluation from the team of officials.

When the evaluation is complete, further information will be made available, and I believe the Minister of Environment (Mr. Andrews) also has a statement to make on this matter this morning. In the meantime, Block 208 near Glenwood was treated with insecticide this morning, bringing the total area treated so far to 360 ,_000 acres. 7538

June 26, 1981 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): about one minute. MR. STIRLING: Tape No. 2822 SD - 1 The hon. Leader of the Opposition has I thought it was goipg to be followed up but we are doing them in two separate statements. together? MR. ANDREWS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. ANDREWS: Do you want to do both of them Yes. The hon. Minister of the Environment. Mr. Speaker, further to the statement just delivered by my colleague,the hon. Charles Power, the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands, I would like to confirm to the members of this hon.

House that an environmental official from my department has accompanied the forestry crews to the area of last night's spill to assess the possibility of environmental damage and to ensure that any remaining pesticide residues are immediately cleaned up in accordance with the procedures established under the contingency plan for such an event. In addition, samples of vegetation, soil and water will be taken for analysis. The only anticipated impact will be a localized effect on insect populations in the immediate area.

However, my department will continue surveillance and to monitor the situation carefully on a continuing basis. MR. SPEAKER: has about two minutes. MR. STIRLING: The hon. Leader of the Opposition Yes, Mr. Speaker. When we discussed the contingency plan it was obvious that there is no contingency plan for this kind of situation. The contingency plan simply says that if it is necessary to dump, no action can be taken 1 and there is no contingency plan. And, Mr. Speaker, this is being treated very lightly by the two ministers.

It gives the impression that it is just a routine thing and the plane carne back and they cleaned up the leaking residue. The truth of the 7539

June 26, 1981 Tape No. 2822 SD - 2 MR. STIRLING: matter, Mr. Speaker, is that there have been incidents like this in New Brunswick. I brought it to the attention of one of the ministers and I was told it was a different type of aircraft and this was not likely to happen. The truth of the matter is that this aircraft dumped it entire load in a very confined area." There are a number of questions that require a lot more of an explanation by the ministers.

We have had ten page, twenty minute Ministerial Statements in this House on garbage, and now we have a serious problem and we get a one minute Ministerial Statement,which is not debatable 1 and we cannot ask questions. Now, ?1r. Speaker, this is not good enough. We have had a serious potential problem in the area. Was there anybody in the area? I would like to have some answers to ti!~questions and I would ask the minister now to use the procedure that was improperly used by the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan); was there anybody in the area who had this material dumped on?

What kind of immediate steps were taken last night to kee? people out of the area? Has it been blocked off, roped off? Is it now under absolute control? MR. LUSH: is? MR. STIRLING: the boundaries? Do they know exactly where it Have they been able to set out any of this stuff still floating? Is it related to a water supply area? 7540

June 26, 1981 Tape No. 2823 EL- 1 MR. STIRLING: Was there anybody in the area? Are the children going hunting, fishing in that area today, the young people, do they know wnat Fias happened? Has there been any kind of a warning put out in Gander for people that were in that area? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! The non. the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, some of the ques- tions brought up by the Leader of tne Opposition are the things that are being evaluated this morning.

Obviously as it relates to the length of the Ministerial Statement, just because we give a one page statement, Mr. Speaker, does not in any way mean that we take things· lightly. It means that this morning at seven o~clock at the earliest point we had helicopters and people in the area. An evaluation is being done, Mr. Speaker. The spray; as it relates to our contingency plan, when the load had to oe jettisoned, the aircraft went to an isolated area; most of the. spray, as we can find out from last night, was dumped in a marsh, a boggy area. There are no peo~le in the area.

The clos-est camp, two miles from that is an Abitibi Price camp where no people were working. The camp people at Abitibi were immediately notified not to send any people into the area and our environmental officials and our departmental officials, along with probably some Canadian Environment people,are in there this morning doing an evaluation and an assessment and the answers to those questions will be done as soon as we get them, possibly before the House closes today. MR. ANDREWS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. tfle Minister of the Environment has an answer. 7 54 'I

June 26, 1981 Tape No. 2823 EL - 2 MR. ANDREWS : Mr. Speaker, to revert back to the procedure that has become common this morning, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition said that we did not have a con­ tingency plan. I have already tabled one in the House but for his information I will table another copy. MR. STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: osition. MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, by leave. Is there leave? By leave. The hon. the Leader of the Opp- Mr.

Speaker, I challenge the Min- ister to look into that contingency plan that he said was tabled and read to this House the part of the contingency plan that deals with the dumping of a load exactly in this kind of sit­ uation. Read out of the contingency plan,what it says. MR. ANDREWS: I do not have my copy here. I tabled it. ORAL QUESTIONS , MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opp- osition. MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, would the Min- ister of Forestry (C.

Power) indicate to the House what actual steps were taken last night when this load of matacil, in a concentrated form was now dumped on a small area, what steps were taken last night specifically to protect people and to keep people out of that area today? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of .Forests REsources and Lands. MR. POWER: Mr.

Speaker, it is important to understand the procedure being used oy aircraft personnel when jettisoning a load of spray in that form, not through the nozzles of the spray but through. actually jettisoning through, I think 1 two or three inch hoses or pieces of tubing that the spray is jettisoned from. The aircraft personnel did everything they 7542

June 26, 1981 Tape NO. 2823 . EL - 3 MR. POWER: possibly could to make sure that the spraying was done mostly around an area of a fairly large bog in that area. It is away from water supplies. it was away from people,because obviously all information about the 754:1

June 26, 1981 MR. C. POWER: at any given time Tape No. 2824 DW - 1 blocks that were to be sprayed in that area - where the spray was dumped is very close to another block,as I can show you on the map-which was slated for spraying also at the same given time. so, therefore, Mr. Speaker, there should be no people in the area. Abitibi-Price people were not there doing any cutting although they have a camp in that given area where the spray was dumped. Again, Mr. Speaker, some of the questions that caused the Leader of the Opposi- tion (Mr.

Stirling) concern also caused the Minister of Environment(Mr.Andrews)and myself great concern. Unfortunately, we cannot give the answers until the evaluation comes back from the team of officials that is out there today. Again, all I can say is that yesterday evening we notified the company which has an operation in the area, this morning we are in the area; I am sure, that any persons, for instance, trying to get into that area by permit would not get permission from our officials or the Department of Environment. It is also, Mr.

Speaker, important to note that when an aircraft travelling at several hundred miles an hour jetti~ a load of 2,600 gallons out through two three inch pieces of pipe that that is going to cover a fairly decent area, many square miles. It is not going to go out in one very small area. Hence the effect on the environment will probably be diluted because of the fact of the spray going over a larger area. MR. L. STIRLING: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. 7544

June 26, 1981 Tape No. 2824 DW - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. L. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, that is the very point that we tried to bring up in this House. My colleague, the member for Fogo (Mr. Tul k) 1who is our spokesman on forestry and is in his district this morninq, he brought up that very point .before the matacil spraying started to say that the contingency plan was not adequate, t'here was not a selected dump Site in advance,it was not pro­ tected1 it was not set out in advance. All of these things could be anticipated. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR.

W. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER: Oh, oh! Order, please! A point of order, Mr. Speaker. A point of order, the hon. President of the Council. MR. W. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman is making a speech. This is the Question Period . He should ask questions. MR. SPEAKER: Well, the purpose of Question Period is clear. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. L. STIRLING: Yes, Mr. Speaker, the purpose of Question Period is to tr y to get information. The purpose of trying to find out what the government is doing is to- we WcUnedthem in advance and now it is obvious, Mr. Speaker, that there was no contingency plan.

It is a disgrace to this House that this morn­ ing we are getting from the minister preliminary - MR. SPEAKER: AN HON. MEMBER: SOME HON. MEMBERS: Order, please! Order, please! Name him! Oh, oh! 7545 Name him!

June 26, 1981 Tape No. 2824 DW - 3 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! Order, please! The hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Stirling) now is debating and should ask a question. I would ask him to do so. He has a supplementary? I will allow some

preamble. MR. L. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, this is a very impor­ tant matter and if the government had done its homework we would not be talking about the niceties this morning about how you are asking a question. It is a preliminary comment. The question I have, Mr.

Speaker, is why was there no contingency plan in force so that this morning we could have in detail that in accordance with the contingency plan the pilot - because they knew there were going to be problems - went to a dump area, it was screened off, people were not allowed in the area, it was pre-selected; the number of people that they have on duty, the kind of - all of the information, Mr. Speaker, should have been listed down because there was no con­ tingency plan. And the question I have to ask him is specifically why it is that we have not got a full report this morning?

You do not know who was in the area! You do not know what the effect is! So why is it that we do not have a full report this morning instead of this kind of - no information, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: and Lands. MR. C. POWER: Oh, oh! Order, please! The hon. Minister of Forest Resources Mr. Speaker, I can understand the members opposite not understanding the contingenc¥ plan because many times they do not take time to read it. I cannot understand the Leader of the Opposition not under­ standing that in rural Newfoundland, in wilderness New- 7546

Jun e 2 6, 198 1 Tape No. 2824 ow- 4 MR . C. PO WER : foundland that you are go .ing to have a report done at ten o'clock in the morning when the first persons to get in there was seven o'clock- it is 300 miles from us and I am supposed to have a report in the House of Assembly. Now, Mr. Speaker, that shows at total lack of understanding on the forests of Newfoundland, it shows a total lack of understanding of how procedures are to be carried out. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! 7547

June 26, 1981 MR. POWER: absolutely impractical. MR. STIRLING: MR. POWER: Tape No. 2825 ah - 1 Mr. Speaker, that is totally and There is a conting.ency plan. Read it. If the member wants to read page 8, it has been tabled, it has been tabled before, but unfortunately none of the members opposite took the time to read it. MR .• SPEAKER (Simms): MR. NEARY: The hon. member for LaPbile. Mr.

Speaker, my question is a supplementary one to the_minister and I am really concerned about this matter and I would like to ask the minister to trace the course of events that led to the dumping of this matacil last night after the plane took off from Gander .• The hon. gentleman in his initial statement said that one of the engines of the plane started smoking and the pilot saw flames from one of the engines. Is that correct? Well, now, how much time did they have? Was there panic? Did they have to dump the load as quickly as they could?

Did they have time to look around for a bog area to dump their load or did they start to dump the load when they were coming back to Gander for an emergency landing and dumped it all the way back? Because if there was matacil falling from the plane all the way back, then it would fall into the water supply, Gander Lake, it would fall over communities - it had to pass over a number of communities. I believe this is the first question we have to determine~ Exactly what was the situation? Was it a panic situation? Was it an emergency landing?

Did the crew have time to go and look for a bog area or, after they took off and discovered the fire in the engine, did they have to then high-tail it back to Gander as fast as they could to get the plane down to put out the fire in the engine and on the way back kept dumping matacil all the way back? Because I understand from my usual reliable sources of information that there is a fair amount of 7548

June 26,1981 T'ape No. 2825 ah-2 MR. NEARY: matacil on the airstrip in Gander last night and this morning. Just trace the course of events so we can see what happened. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. Minister of Forests, Resources and Lands. MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, as I understand in talking with my officials in Gander yesterday and this morning, the course of events was this: We decided yesterday evening that weather conditions were proper to go out and spray block 217 which is 1 as I have shown on the map 1 a fairly significant ways from Gander and very close to Millertown.

On the course of the route in getting from Gander to Millertown,engine one of the aircraft was noticed to be having some troubles with it, flames were noticed and a lot of smoke. The OC-4 kind of aircraft which we tendered for this project, the reason we went for a OC-4 aircraft is because in using a four engine aircraft your safety chances are much greater than usin .g the single engine aircraft like the Avengers that they use in New Brunswick where if you get a problem with an engine then it is a panic, it is a crisis situation.

The reason for having the four engine aircraft is to give the pilot time to be able to look for a dump site-and there are selected dump sites both near Steohenville and near Gander. In this case that dump site was not used , 7549

June 26, 1981 Tape 2826 EC - 1 MR. POWER: not used because the aircraft wanted to return to Gander, obviously, with the problems that it had. They selected an area where there was a fairly large amount of bog close to a spray block that was supposed to be sprayed anyway. It is an area that is isolated and uninhabited, an area where there is no woods activity now taking place. Mr. Speaker, after the aircraft - and this in in the contingency plan, the reason for doing that is th~~, obviously, from a pilot safety point of view - and there are two human beings onboard, Mr.

Speaker, who obviously had their own lives to protect along with the aircraft - they decided to jettison the load in that given area and then return to Gander for an emergency landing, and all the emergency landing procedures that normally take place at any airport were in effect in Gander when the aircraft came back. It landed safely. Some insecticide .was still leaking. The member asked exactly how much of the insecticide did actually leak from the area of jettison to the area of Gander airport. I do not know, Mr. Speaker.

That is why we have a team of officials out in that area today to get those answers for us. All I can say is that the procedure and what happened is exactly as I have told the member. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : member for LaPoile. Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. A supplementary, the hon. the MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, it seems to me that that is the key question. The hon. gentleman .says he does not know. Well, surely, Mr. Speaker, the crew of the aircraft know.

When the hon. gentleman admitted that they could not get into the dump site - there was a dump site that the crew was aware of, I presume - they could not jettison their load of matacil on the dump site 7550

June 26, 1981 Tape 2826 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: because there was an emergency, it was a crisis situation, and in order for the crew of the aircraft to save their lives they had to have an emergency landing in Gander where emergency procedures were imple­ mented. So they selected an area. Now, the hon. gentleman, in my opinion, is handling that part of the answer very lightly. The area, he says, was bog land and it was uninhabited and there was no wildlife there, no moose there. Is that what the hon. gentleman is saying? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. POWER: there.

I did not say there was no wildlife MR. NEARY: Well, alright, the hon. gentleman just brushed over that very lightly. The hon. gentleman really does not know if there were people there or not, he does no ·t know how much wildlife was there, he does not know how much of that matacil was dumped in that particular area because the aircraft was moving probably fairly fast to get back to Gander airport as quickly as possible. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Is the hon. member asking a question now? MR. NEARY: Yes. MR. SPEAKER: It is a fairly lengthy

preamble. MR. NEARY: Well, I realize that. MR. SPEAKER: There are other members who wish to ask questions. MR. NEARY: But it certainly is a very heavy subject too, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Yes, I agree, but I would ask the hon. member to ask his supplementary question. MR -. NEARY: I am trying to find out if the hon. 7551

June 26, 1981 Tape 2826 EC - 3 MR. NEARY: gentleman can .tell us for sure that there were no people in the area, that no people's lives are endangered as a result of the matacil falling from the plane on the way back to land at Gander airport? Did the matacil fall on anybody at the aL.-port? Did it go into the Gander water supply? Did it fall over any other communities? Because that plane had to fly over a number of communities to get back on the ground in Gander. Now, these are the questiens that the hon . gentleman should address himself to . 7552

June 26, 1981 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Resources and Lands. MR. POWER: Tape No. 2827 NM - 1 The hon. Minister of Forest Mr. ·Speaker, I just find it hard to believe that any member of this House can expect a person at ten o'clock this ~orning, several hundred miles from where an accident took place, to have all the answers to exactly how many sparrows were in the area, how many caterpillars were in the area, how many moose, how many rabbits, how many ducks might happen to be breeding in the given area. Mr.

Speaker, we have a team of officials out examining the area so that we can get all the information which we will gladly give to members either at the end of today's sitting if we have it, on Monday if we do have it. Again, Mr. Speaker, I just find it hard to believe that we are supposed to have all those answers this morning. All I know is that the crew followed the . contingency plans as best they could and in protecting their lives they have to jettison a certain amount of aircraft. If someone wants to ask me how many sparrows are comparable to a human life I do not know. MR. NEARY: A supplementary. MR.

SPEAKER: A final supplementary - MR. NEARY: I yield. MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: Mr . . Speaker, we have heard quoted, and the ministers have not quoted the section, well I am going to ask a question dealing with the specific section. And in court we expect a minister at ten o'clock in the morning to have the answers in a contingency that should have been anticipated. 7553

..... June 26, 1981 Tape No. 2827 NM- 2 MR. STIRLING: Should a pilot find it necessary to jettison a load there is little that can be done to decontaminate the area. That is all that is in the con­ tingency plan, Mr. Speaker. No rules that the pilot is under the control of Forestry. No rules that it was under the control of Forestry. Mr. Speaker, it is a shocking admission of lack of management of this problem. Now let us suppose the same problem o~curs tomorrow, Mr.

Speaker, and the question I have asked the minister, now that a problem has happened, and you do not know at this point the concentration of the pollutant, you do not know at this point if any people were in the area, and you do not know about the damage that has taken place, what have you been doing since eight o'clock? You should have been out there last night eight o'clock. You should have been there all night. You should have been able to report to this Chamber this morning that you had it under control. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! Order, please! MR.

STIRLING: The question that I have to ask, will the minister please outline the type of control that they used last night over the pilots to tell them where they could jettison and what they did to make sure that there was warning to the people in that area? What specifically was done between last night and today? And since you are continuing this programme what plans do you now have in force so you are not in here tomorrow morning saying it is ten o'clock and I do not know what is going on. MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR.

POWER: Someone says in the background, -- What are they trying to prove by asking questions which we obviously do not have the answers for when our officials are trying to find out. 7554

June 26, 1981 MR. POWER: MR. STIRLING: it - Tape No. 2827 NM - 3 The obvious answer, Mr. Speaker - You should have been prepared for 7555

June 26, 1981 -Tape No. 2828 EL - 1 MR. POWER: is that again, Mr. Speaker, it comes up in this House that that side of the House is against a protection programme, is against - MR. NEARY: Oh, Mr. Speaker! MR. POWER: -protecting the 20,000 Forest jobs, as the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary} has shown - SOME HON. MEMBERS: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. POWER: Hear, hear! Oh, oh! And they will find every excuse they can, signing petitions or do anything else they can - MR. MORGAN: MR. NEARY: self. MR. POWER: What a disgrace. What a disgrace.

You should be ashamed of your- - to come in here and find that they do not want to protect the forest resources in this Prov­ ince - MR. SPEAKER(Simms}: Order, please! MR. POWER: - which we as a government have decided to do because it is absolutely necessary. MR. NEARY: Shameful. MR. LUSH: What a disgrace. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, they would want to continue to read it. Obviously, we have tabled this twice - nobody has read it. The Leader of the Opposition reads the first part - MR. STIRLING: I just read it through. MR. POWER: - that nothing can be done. Well, let us read all of it.

"Jettisoned aircraft load. Should a pilot find it necessary to jettison a load of insecticide, full or partial for safety purposes, there is little that can be done to decontaminate that area. In all cases, Mr ·. Speaker, a} a pilot will, if the situation permits, jettison load on . flat surfaces as far from water as possible, establish location on map, and advise the operations manager. Done! MR. STIRLING: He does not have to be told! 7556

June 26, 1981 Tape No. 2828 EL - 2 MR. POWER: Operations manager will advise the Coast Gaurd at 737-2083. Done, Mr. Speaker. Number 3, if jettisoned insecticide can be identified on the ground, the ' operations manager will commence cleanup and de-contamination measures will begin. Liquid that can be absorbed with the use of an absorbent compound or batts will be soaked up and put into sealable containers 1 i.e. 1 steel barrels 1and be disposed of by burying. Contaminated area will then be treat­ ed with caustic soda or farmers' lime depending on the type of ground,whether it is dry or wet. 11 That, Mr.

Speaker, · is being done this morning. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (.S irnrns l : A supplementary, the hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: I am amazed that member cin the other side would treat this matter·so lightly. I am·trying to trace, I am trying to get the minister to trace the flying pattern of that aircraft from the time she developed her trouble until she got on the ground, Hade an emergency land­ ing in Gander. Would the hon. gentleman tell us how many co~m­ unities did that aircraft fly over on the way back to Gander to make an emergency landing?

How many communities? Can the hon. gentleman just trace the cours.e of the aircraft? Or does the hon. gentleman know1 or is he concerned? Because obviously the aircraft had to fly over communities where the matacil was dripping from the aircraft. Did it fly over the town of Gander, for instance and over to the Gander Lake, which is the water supply for Gander? Surely the hon. gentleman - that is funda­ mental, basic information - the hon. gentleman should be able to give the House that information. 7557

June 26, 1981 "Tape No . 2828 EL - 3 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon . the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands . MR . POWER: Mr . Speaker, again, as the Min - ister of Fi sheries (J. Morgan) say s, they do not know their geography very well. I have shown them the map, that it is a.Tl area, Sunday La~e, an area west of Gander .

So far I can see on the map, a place called Frozen Ocean Pond, which is in the area; I do not think many people live there; Burnt Lake, I do not think too many people live there; Sunday Lake, Haye s Lake, Crow Lake, there do not seem to be any communities there and obviouly if the member wants the map he can look and see exactly where it is to . MR. NEARY : MR. POWER : unities there . MR . NEARY : In other words, you do not know. I am sa ying there are no comm - Well , how do you kno w? ~fuich course did the aircraft take when he was coming back for hi s emergency land in g? Did he fly over Gander? MR.

SPEAKER : Any further questions? 7558

June 26, 1981 Tape No. 2829 SD - 1 . MR . STIRLING: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Supplementary, the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: Is the minister really telling us that he had to get help from his colleague, the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan), to take a look at a map right now to try to guess at what the pilot did? You mean you do not know whether or not the pilot zigzagged, went through two or three sites? SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: MR. STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER: Oh, oh. Order, please! Do you not know what kind - Order, please! The hon.

Leader should direct his question to the Chair and not 'you', direct to the Chair. MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, maybe I would have a better chance of getting the Speaker to answer the-question. Is the minister now admitting that at this stage he does not :know specifically what route that the pilot took, what st-eps that he took, whether he went over a nu,mber of sites? Does he not know whether or not there was a lot of leakage going over the town of Gander? Does he not know what direction, which actual runway he came in on?

Is the minister saying he does not know and that he actually had to look at the map to see what route he would have taken? Is that the kind of complete lack of information that the minister has this morning? MR. SPEAKER: and Lands. MR. POWER: The hon. Minister of Forest Resources Mr. Speake,r, it is really-hard to believe that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Stirling) and the members opposite find it hard to sink into their heads the fact that this thing happened yesterday evening, the fact that flight plans - 7558

June 26, 1981 Tape No. 2829 SD - 2 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. POWER: If you want us to get flight plans from the Department of Transport in Gander,, v7e will gladly get the flight plans; we will gladly tab1e them by the end of the day 1 or Monday morning or Monday afternoon, we will gladly table the flight plans. MR. MORGAN: How can you control the flight plan? D.o not be so foolish, ooy. MR. POWER: MR. STIRLING: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, all I can say is I know you cannot control it - Oh, oh.

Order, please! - that we have done everything that is humanly possible and -it is continuing to be done today to make sure that there is absolutely a minimal amount of damage to the environment and a minimal amount of danger that any persons in Newfoundland are placed in. What we have to realize, Mr. Speaker, is that we as a government has decided to do a protection programme, we have 20,000 in Newfoundland, Mr.

Speaker, who make their living directly and indirectly from the forestry, we have to have a protection programme because we have lost 22 per cent or 23 per cent of our forest resource to the budworrn,and it is either, in our case, do a programme where there are risks involved, Mr. Speaker - no one denies the fact that when you use machines, use aircraft, use chemical sprays there are not some risks involved -we as a government have responsibly sat down and decided that we have to have a protection programme. It is just unfortunate that members of the Opposition are not equally so responsible. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, now the hon. gentleman is admitting that there is risk involved in this programme. 756n

June 26, .1981 Tape No. 2829 so - 3 MR. POWER: I always did. MR. NEARY: Now how much risk is involved? Are these aircraft safe? Mr. Speaker, are they properly maintained? What year are the aircraft? Who owns the air­ craft? Where do they come from? Are they properly maintained? Did the hon. gentleman's officials or the Department of the Environment try to get some information on this aircraft before it came down to Gander? 7561

June 26, 1981 Tape No. 2830 AH-1 MR. NEARY: Can the hon. gentleman tell -us about the condition of the aircraft? MR. MORGAN: Anything that flies is controlled by the Feds, boy. MR. NEARY: Just how hazardous is this operation? It is only now that we are beginning to find out that there is an unsafe element involved and they do not have a contingency plan. Can the hon. gentleman tell us about the condition of the aircraft? MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS) : Resources and Lands. MR. POWER: The hon. Minister of Forests, I will try and take a couple of ~inutes -, Mr.

Speaker, to say that when you live as a human being there are hazards in almost everything you do. If the Speaker gets up andleaves to walk out, he may trip and break a leg; if someone gets on an aircraft, there may be a crash. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKF.R: Order, please! MR. POWER: There may be a crash. MR. STIRLING: How irresponsible can you be? MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, I am not treating it lightly. I am trying to find how absolutely irresponsible and asinine some of the questions are that are being asked by the Opposition.

Now, finally, afte.r we have gone through a Royal Commission in this Province that almost none of the members opposite we·nt to, after we had a Royal Commission Report that was presented that most of them acknowledged not reading, and no'iT are trying to say - and I wonder why they have such hesitations about a spray programme. Mr. Speaker, it is only now they are beginning to realize that there are hazards involved with a spray programme. Now our government knew that all along. Every member on this side, every member who dealt with and read the Royal Commission Report knows there are hazards 7562

June 2ii, 1981 Tape No. 2830 AH-2 MR. POWER: involved. Mr. Speaker, I can only say that we as a government have done everything we possibly can to make sure that the dangers are minimal. Unfortunately the licensing of all aircraft, the licensing of all pilots falls under federal jurisdiction and I only hope and pray they do a better job with that than they do with most things. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS) : for LaPoile. MR. NFARY: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker. A supplementary. The hon. member Mr.

Speaker, I want to come back again to the - no wonder they brought in legis~ation barring people from getting injunctions against the government to stop this spray programme. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: Let us get back to the time element again. Would the hon. gentleman now tell us the amount of time we are talking about? From the time the aircraft left the ground, they discovered the smoke and the flames coming from number one engine and then dumped tne load, found a site to dump the load, how much time are we talking about?

From the time the aircraft left, dumped the load, got back on the ground again, how much time are we talking about there? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Forests, Resources and Lands. MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, in answer to a previous question from the Leader of the Opposition, I have agreed to get the flight plan and table it. MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. 7553

June 26,1981 Tape No . 2830 ah-3 MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, I believe that the Minister of the Environment (Mr. Andrews) received the first message last night while we were attending the dinner at the dining hall. Could the minister tell us what specific action he took from that point,which was about eight o'clock? The Minister of t.l}e Environment {t-tr . Andrews) is t-.he one responsible for this. The Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr . Power) is the one that is interested in killing the insects. The Minister of the Environment is suppose to protect us and the environw .P.nt .

Can he tell us step by step what information he too k- 1·1hat steps he took to get this under contro 1, because we still do not have any specific information as to when it happened, how long it took for that aircraft to get back, how much of that has been dumped in various places and how big the area is, what kind of control and what contingency plans were in effect before and under whose control? 7564

June 26, 1981 Tape No. 2831 DW - 1 MR. L. STIRLING: Was this all decided by the pilot or did the operations manager have some control over it? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. Minister of Environ- ment. MR. ANDRET,)S : Mr. Speaker, it is quite ob- vious to me that the decision to abort the flight was the pilot's decision. I was not on board at the time. I was notified at approximately eleven o'clock last night of incident. The hon. Leader of the Opposition was sitting next to me or just behind in the dining hall.

I instructed my people through my deputy minister, who informed me - it took him some time to track me down and that was three hours after the incident. It was dark at the time - the first steps were to clean up what drippings there was around the aeroplane as it landed. That work was in progress at that time with the contingency plan, Mr. Speaker. I also instructed my people to get to the area as soon as possible this morning. My understanding is that they left at seven o'clock this morning. MR. S. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: for LaPoile. MR. S. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

A supplementary, the hon. member Now could the hon. Minister of Environment (Mr. Andrews) tell us how much drippings are we talking about around the airport? Was it a large amount? Was it after the aircraft stopped, parked on the tarmac 1 that the drippings were discovered or was she dripping this matacil all the way into an emergency landing? Could the hon. gentleman tell the House that? And while the·hon. gentleman is on his feet,could he also tell us how they cleaned itup? How do you clean up matacil? What do you do to try to neutralize it? 7565

IU . June 26, 1981 Tape No. 2831 DW - 2 .. MR. SPEAKER {Simms}: The han. the Minister of Environment. MR. ANDREWS: I will turn to the contingency plan for the second reading of the day, Mr. Speaker. MR. S. NEARY: No, I want to know what you did last night. MR. ANDREwS: Mr. Speaker, it can be absorbed with absorbing compounds or batts. One of the petter ways of absv .. bing - neutralizing is Whiit we are talking about - this chemical is with a caustic soda and caustic soda would probably have been used last night - MR. S. NEARY: What did they use last .. night? I want to find out about,last night! HR.

LUSH~· Did they use caustic soda last night? MR. ANDREWS: I do not know if thev used caustic sOda last night or if they used batts. MR. S. NEARY: You do not know! Well, that · is the trouble, you do not kn0\<1'! MR . ANDRF-WS : If it was in sufficient quanti- ties to sop up they would have used batts and put it in sealable containers. That is the procedure. MR. S. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. L. STIRL1NG: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. L. STIRLING: I yield, Mr. Speaker. MR. S. NEARY: The han. gentleman soaked up more than they did in Gander last night. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: oh, oh! MR. S:PEAKER: Order, please! Order, piease! The han. Leader of the Opp9sitibn yields to the han. member for LaPoile. 7566

June 26, 1981 Tape No. 2831 DW - 3 .MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, is the hon. gentleman admitting that he does not the process, the procedure used in the clean up, that in actual fact he does not know how much drippings were - if it was all the way down the runway on the way in while the plane was landing, making an emer­ gency landing or just on the tarmac where they parked the plane? The hon. gentleman, why does he not admit it and just say that he does not know] Is that the situation? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the Minister of Environ- ment. MR. ANDREWS: Mr.

Speaker, the spill 1 to my information - or the drippings, I would not call it a spill - I would presume it was where maybe the cocks or the valves were not slightly - MR. S. NEARY: MR. POWER: MR. ANDREWS: You presume but you do not know! This is being investigated. were not properly closed. My information last night and this morning was that it was a small amount,whatever a small amount is 1in numbers of gal­ lons. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. 7557

June 26, 1981 Tape 2832 EC - 1 MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, it is very obvious that - they said that they had to track the minister down and they got him at 11:00 last night. Now, between 8:00 P.M. and 11:00 P.M., would the minister tell us specifically what action was taken, not what should have been taken according to a piece of paper that said, 'Now, this is what might have happened'? What action specifically was taken by the minister? MR. SPEAKER (Simms ) : MR. ANDREWS: The hon. the Min~=ter of Environment. The action taken by me, Mr.

Speaker, was after the fact, because I informed my personnel to have the contaminant cleaned up. They said that was in progress, if not completed "- this was the telephone call I received from St. John's - and it was done. MR. STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: Is the minister now telling us that the purpose in getting in touch with the minister was just to inform him that a problem had occurred and that action was being taken?

Now' · if I were there, if I were the minister, if there were anybody on this side with the minister, we would have the answers this morning. We would be here with answers. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. STIRLING: It is obvious from the fact that- a small piece of information: it seems that I have to give some information to the minister in order to get some. If there were no damage to the tanks ·as such, Mr. Speaker - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.

STIRLING: - if there were no damage to the tanks and they found when the aircraft got back in Gander 7558

June 26, 1981 Tape 2832 . EC - 2 MR . STIRLING: it was still spraying, it was still jettisoning matacil, can the minister categorically say that the jettison took place in a specific area the plane circled, or in fact, from the information he has given us this morning which indicates that there was spillage on the runway, that there was a continuous jettison from whenever the plane took .off until in fact it was still jettisoning matacil when it landed on the runway? Can the minister categorically deny that there was no jettisoning all over that route? ' MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. the Minister of Environment.

MR. ANDREWS : No, Mr. Speaker, I cannot. MR. SPEAKER: The time for Oral Questions has expired. ANSWERS TO QUESTI 'ONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Social Services. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I have the answer to a question raised by the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) yesterday with regard to the use of rented cars by my staff.

I want to confirm the answer that I ~~ve him, ' which is that to the largest extent rented cars are not used by my field staff, and, in support of that, I would like to give the following information: I have had a check made of my various regions, five regions in the Province 1and the figures are as follows. MR. NEARY: Could you speak up? MR. MORGAN: We cannot hear you, ·,Tom' • MR. HICKEY: I cannot speak any louder. It is not a matter of my not speaking louder, it is a matter of the people over there maybe not shutting up. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! 7569

June 26, 1981 Tape 2832 EC - 3 MR. HICKEY : Mr . Speaker, in the Eastern region, fifty -three of my staff use their private cars, one temporary employee uses a taxi, and no rente d cars are used . In the Western region, sixty-four staff use their private cars, thi rteen use taxis and four social assistance workers use re nted cars - ~nd I will explain the reason for that. In the Central region, thirty -three members of my staff use the i~ own private cars , sixteen use taxis and four use rented cars. 7570

June 26, 1981 Tape No. 2833 MR. HICKEY: in Labrador,thirteen use their own private cars, six use taxis, none use rented cars. In the situations where rented cars are used, NM - 1 Mr. Speaker, they are used because it is cheaper than using taxis. Under the Wage and Working Agreement covering my employees in the field 1there is no requirement that they use their own private vehicle. In othe+ words, they have an option of using taxis or private vehicles. MR. NEARY: I do not care what you say, they are getting away with something. MR. HICKEY: The incident as indicated by the member for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) I wish to comment on. I have checked the information that he provided and I can confirm that on Monday, June 15th., a car was rented from Beothic Rent-A-Car in Lewisporte by the district office of the Department of Social Services. The car was used by the social worker during that day to perform a number of horne visits in the course of his duties.

Later that evening, the social worker used the car to travel to another part of the community on personal business, On returning 1 he had an accident, Realizing that he really should not have been using the rent-a-car for his own personal use,he went to the rent-a-car agency and had the original contract cancelled and another contract prepared renting the car to himself personally and he paid the bill. MR. NEARY: . MR. · HICKEY: MR. STIRLING: I see. That is based on the information . (Inaudible) . MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, can I continue? If the hon. gentleman has a question he can ask me after­ wards. MR.

SPEAKER(Simms) : Yes. Order, please! 7571

June 26, 198 "1 Tape No. 2833 NM - 3 ORDERS OF TliE DAY: On motion, that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) : carry? MR. NEARY: MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. NEARY: COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE Order, please! Bill No. 86. Shall the resolution No, not yet, Mr. Chairman. The hon. member for LaPoile. Mr. Chairman, yestf!r ,day hon. members of the House will recall that I made some statements concerning the collection of this tax, 7573

June 26, 1981 Tape No. 2834 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: the revenue from the gasoline tax, which is the highest in Canada. We have the highest provincial gasoline tax in the whole of North America. There is not a state in the United States, I do not think, that charges 22 per cent of a gasoline tax. Twenty-two per cent is what the Province, this provincial government, collects, twenty- two cents for every dollar. When cons~ers go up to the gas pump and they buy gasoline,twenty-two cents out of every dollar they buy goes into the Treasury of this Province.

That is three times more than the federal government collects, and the federal government subsidizes gasoline in this Province. And yesterday I was tracing the usage of this money, the expenditure, what the money was to be used for. The money, I said, was to be used for providing the Premier with a $300,000 or $400,000 house, free of charge, rent free - the only Province in Canada who gives the Premier a rent free house. That does not seem to have sunk in to members' heads yet.

The only Province in Canada, the poorest Province of Canada, the highest taxes, the highest gasoline tax, the highest sales tax, the highest income tax, the highest taxes in Canada, record unemployment, the highest cost of living,and what do we do here? 22 per cent gasoline tax charged up to the consumers to pay for a $300,000 or $400,000 home for the Premier, and the private dining room and all the other fringe benefits. Well,yesterday, Mr. Chairman, you will recall that hon. gentlemen on the government benches challenged this statement and said that previously Mr. Smallwood was given a house.

And I heard the hon. President of the Council {Mr. Marshall) at that game-yesterday it was the Minister of Fisheries {Mr. Morgan) and the Minister of Public Works and Services {Mr. Young) who said, 'What about Smallwood's house', and I said, 'Yes, what about it?' 7574

June 26, 1981 Tape No. iB34 SD - 2 MR. NEARY: 'Well,the taxpayers gave him a house', they said. MR. CARTER: Tell us all about the Roaches Line, MR. NEARY: Yes, Sir, I can and that is precisely what I am going to do if the hon. gentleman would only just exercise a little patience. MR. HANCOCK: Can you get a DB into the House, Mr. Chairman? MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I am going to say something and I am going to table a document that has never been tabled in this House before. MR. HANCOCK: You should not say it yet. MR. NEARY: But before I table the document there is a story that has to be told. MR.

CARTER: A fine story. MR. NEARY: A fine story it is. And, Mr. Chairman, there was a house built on Roaches Line by Mr. Smallwood,Who built it? If the hon. gentleman wants to,he can go down in the registry office 1 the same as I did at 9:00 a.m. this morning,and he will find that there was a mortgage, Mr. Smallwood took out a mortgage that built that house. There was a mortgage on that house. He built the house the same as every other Newfoundlanders who would build it, out of a mortgage - mortgage money. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. HANCOCK: That is what he got for twenty-three years. MR.

NEARY: And that can be confirmed by just going down to the registry office and looking up the volumes down there. MR. HANCOCK: has ever seen. MR. YOUNG: MR. NEARY: The most honest Premier this Province What are you talking about? We are talking about Mr. Smallwood's house now and I am not going to be distracted by anything else. 7575

June 26, 1981 Tape No . 2834 so - 3 MR. NEARY: We are talking about Mr. Smallwood' s b?use, not who paid for anything else. The Minister of Public Works and Services (Mr. Young) is over there interrupting everytime we get up to talk about the Premier's $300,000 or $400,000 house. Yesterday he said, 'What about Mr. Smallwood's house?' Well~ I 75 76

June 26, 1981 Tape No. 2835 EL - 1 MR. NEARY: am dealing with it now. Now, the house was built, Mr. Chairman. Now, when the house was built out of Mr. Smallwood's own pocket, out of a mortgage that he floated with a trust company in this city-that can be confirmed in the Registry Office-then what did he do with the house? Did he then keep the house for him- self? No, Mr. Chairman, here is what he did. In 1963, Vol- urne 831, page 307, Mr. Smallwood conveyed to the Province of Newfoundland, to the people of this Province, his house. "Know all men by these presents, that I, the hen.

Joseph Roberts Small~, of PDacies Line in t!Le electoral district of Port de Grave, Newfoundland, Premier of Newfoundland, have granted and conveyed and do by these present~, grant and convey to the Government of Newfoundland•-and then it goes on to des­ cribe the land - together with all buildings and erectioris ~e- J. on and the appurtenance thereon to hold the sarre until the Govern- ment of Newfoundland for use as a country residence for future premiers of Newfoundland.• SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!- MR. NEARY: •And failing such use - MR. HANCOCK: You w£11 have that in a couple of years. MR.

NEARY: - ~ failing such use by a future premier at any time for such use, by the then Lieutenant-Gover- nor of the Province of Newfoundland, reserving however to me, the said hen. Joseph Ro~, Smallwood and to my wife surviving me, the exclusive right to occupy and use the said land and premises for the remainder of our respective lives, free of any rental but subject to the. conditions that we shall _be responsible for the repair and maintenance of the said premises during the period of such occupancy.' SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 7577

June 26, l981 Tape No. 2835 EL - 2 MR . NE ARY: Mr. Chairman, that house was ~onveyed to the people of this Province £or the large sum of one dollar, one doilar. And you know, Mr. Chairman, the one dollar was never paid. MR. CARTER: Is that still in effect? MR. NEARY: That is still in effect, and I am coming to that, by the way. I am coming to it. That is still in effect. Mr. Smallwood does not own a house in this Province, does not own a home. He does not have a home. The man who was premier of this Province for twenty-three years does not have a home.

He owned one, he gave it to the people of this Province, s.old it to them for one dollar. MR. CAR TER: MR. NEARY: Moo res - MR. HAN COCK : House, honest to God. MR. NEARY: th~s Province, one - MR. HANCOCK: He has got what he deserves. No. But, Mr. Chairman, when Mr. Boy, you are a disg~ace to the When Mr. Moores was Premier of A disgrace to the House. We should get a D-8 and run over you. MR. NEARY: - one o£ the last decisions he made, in one of his last Cabinet meetings, he decided, Mr. Moores, a decisi .on of the Cabinet was taken and Mr. Moores decided to sell Mr.

Smallwood back his house for the same dollar, for the same price he had sold it to the Newfoundland Government for. MR. CARTER: Thereby hangs a tale. MR. NEARY: Yes, thereby hangs a tale. 757 8

•June 26, 1981 Tape 2836 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: But lo and behold, Mr. Speaker, what Mr. Moores thought was fair and just, that the former Premier of this Province should own his own horne, the present Premier cancelled the Order-in-Council. MR . JI,fu\TCOCK : Oh, come on, that is not - MR. NEARY: The present Premier when he took over cancelled the decision of Cabinet - MR. HANCOCK : that? MR. STIRLING: Now, how about that, boys? How about Now deny it! Deny it! MR. NEARY: - cancelled it, and denied Mr. Smallwood the right to own his own horne. MR. IijlliCOCK: AN HON. MEMBER: AN HON. MEMBER: MR.

CHAIRMAN (Butt) : Get up on a point of order now! Your time is up. That is not a half hour already. No, the hon. member spoke,when he adjourned the debate, he spoke for eighteen minutes yesterday. He would have twelve today. MR. NEARY: So, Mro Chairman, the present Premier cancelled the deal. So the people of this Province own a house that the - and, you know, Mr. Chairman, I am amazed.

Not only do I have to educate, sornetimes,people on the other side of the House who make these snide remarks, who use these smear tactics, who use these low snake-in~he grass attacks on the former Premier of this Province, not only do I have to educate that hon. crowd over there, but these things have to be said sometimes to educate some of my own colleagues who thi~ that everything that is said over there is gospel when in actual fact - MR. HANCOCK: That deed is registered. MR. NEARY: That deed is registered in the Registry Office. I went there this morning at 9:00A.M., 7579

.· June 26, 1981 Tape 2836 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: did my search, have copies, and I am asking the Page to come down so I can distribute some of these copies to the press. I am going to table the deed, Mr. Speaker. But I think it should be distributed to the press. I hope that nobody ever again in this House or in the media will ever make the untrue statement, the incorrect statement, will ever add to the big lie that Mr. Smallwood was given a house by the people of this Province. As a matter of fact, the opposite is true.

He built the house- got a mortgage the same as every other Newfoundlander did built the house and then sold it to the Newfoundland Government, gave it to the people of this Province for the large sum of one dollar. And, Mr. Chairman, the present Premier cancelled the deal that Mr. Moores had passed in Cabinet. Well, now, the gentleman who cancelled that, what was he the beneficiary of? He was the beneficiary of a $300,000 or $400,000 house paid for by the taxpayers of this Province rent free - free lights, free telephone, free rent, free motor car.

That very same gentleman who thought that it was scandalous, a disgrace, for the former Premier of this Province to own his own horne, that it be sold back to him for the same price he sold it for, that very same gentleman was the benefactor of these huge gifts from the taxpayers of this Province who are now asked to cough up 22 per cent tax on gasoline to help pay for it, a $300,000 or $400,000 luxurious house, Mount Scio House up in the Pippy Park. Security - now they are talking about putting a chain link fence around it with gates that are electrified, bodyguards all over the place. Mr.

Chairman, what a - I cannot find an adjective 7580

June 26,1981 Tape No. 2837 ah-1 MR.NEARY: an adjective to describe it., Nhat a disgrace; Nhat an utter disqrace; in Newfoundland bodyguards going everywhere . 'rhe Premier cannot go out of the building unless he got a bodyguard tight to his shoulder. The bodyguard leaps in the car and he jumps in the back seat and they ~e - you should watch it. I have seen it on my way out of the building. What a performance. You would not see it in a James Bond movie, the kind of antics that this crowd are carrying on. The hon. gentleman is obviously paranoid.

But, Mr.Speaker, before my time runs out this particular sessio~,I want to lay this on the table of the House.And I dare any member of this House,on the government side,to be the first now to stand up and say - stand up ,I dare them now to ever again stand up and say that Mr. Smallwood was given a house by the taxpayers of this Province, by the people of this Province, rent free and free light : MR. CARTER: Sit down (inaudible). --ru:< -RON. MEMBER: Are you going (inaudible)him over there? MR. NEARY: No,I will answer that when I come back,do not worry,because that is completely untrue. MR.CARTER: Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) : The hon. member for St. John's North. MR. CARTER: Mr. Chairman, I do not know as much about the former, former Premier's present house as I do about his future house. I do know it contains a very large furnace and some gentleman dressed in red who stoke it continuously in anxious anticipation for their new guest. And I can assure you that he will live there a long time in great discomfort. So what the hon. gentleman is saying is absolute rubbish and I wonder, I really wonder at gentlemen opposite,that they should ever have a good word to say about that former, former Premier, 7581

June 26,1981 Tape No. 2837 ah-2 Mr. CARTER: especially the gentleman from the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts), because if it were not for that hon. gentlernan,he,today would be Premier. And anyone who does not believe that merely has to look at the election results in 1975. So I will be very interested if the hon. member for The Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts) has the gall to get up and say a good word about his predecessor in the party. H~ knows very well that he owes him nothing, absolutely nothing. Now,there are two or three reasons why I believe this to be true.

In the first place, a careful analysis of the 1975 election results will show you that the Liberal Reform candidates were pl~ced in areas where they could split the vote. MR. HANCOCK: Tell us about your crowd outting twenty-two cents on gasoline. MR. CARTER: And were it not for the Liberal Reform Party that ran,the Liberal Party,it appears,would have come very close to forming the government,if not actually forming the government.

Also,it is a fact -Hansard will back me up -that after the former, former Premier became a member in this House once again,in 1975 as leader of the Liberal Reform group, no cross word, no angry comment, no criticism whatsoever was made of the then Premier Moores. There was nothing but sweetness, harmony and light and praise for the former Premier by the former, former Premier. That is a fact and Hansard will bear me out.

The second fact that I have personal knowledge of is that when I wisely would not allow the television cameras to come in and record the nonsensical charade of the former, former Premier resigning, ~ very vigorous representation was made to me from former 7582

..:. June 26,1981 Tape No. 2837 ah-3 MR. CARTER: Premier r.toores to relent. Now , all of these lead me to believe absolutely that former Premier Smallwood knifed his colleagues, knifed them deeply , in the back, in the front, in the throat, in the side, everywhere he could push the knife he did and not only pushed the knife, but turned it and rubbed their noses in the dirt. And it is extraordinary to me, it is absolutely extraordinary to me that hon.members opposite can get up and say a decent word about him.

Because if it were not for that - I have to say hon. gentleman, those gentleman opposite would now,very possibly,be the government of Newfoundland . God help us! So perhaps we ought to give the former, former Premier some praise ,that he inadvertently did something for the Tory Pa .rty that he certainly was not willing to do for the Liberal Party . Now ,as to his lovely house, as to that pile of garbage set on something 7583

June 26, 1981 Tape No. 2838 NM - 1 MR. J. CARTER: like 4,000 acres of Crown land, something that no other Newfoundlander can get, had not been able to get in the past · and is not able to get in the present. AN HON. MEMBER: Who built the house? MR. CARTER: situated on 4,000 acres of prime agricultural land, the very best, topsoil down to your arm­ pits, situated on that is a very, very expensive house, far beyond the means - unless the hon. Premier was a very, very good manager, there was no way that that house was built by his own resources. There were a great many gifts given to him by craven hangers on.

Look at the driveway itself. It must have cost many thousands of dollars topave that. Look at those expensive pillars from the post office. Where did he get those? Did he pay for them or were they put out on tender? Nonsense. He was given them. Gifts. Gifts. Gifts. MR. NEARY: Who owns it now? MR. CARTER: MR. NEARY: Who owns it now? Who owns it all? It does not matter who owns it. Who owned it since 1963? MR. CA.'RTERi' ·- It is a well known fact that no premier is softheaded enough to want to go out in the sticks and live there.

He will live there as long as he wants t~ and his heirs can live there,because no premier in Newfoundland will be softheaded enough to want to go out and live in such a mausoleum as - MR. HANCOCK: (inaudible) it away. MR. CARTER: Your Premier v7as soft enough to -~~~ wh 01e place lacks in 'taste. It is just ahodgepodge of conflicting architectural styles, set in amongst a nest of flies and mosquitoes. Anyone who would be foolish enough even to go out there and visit would want his head examined. So let the fellow live in his manure pile, him and his heirs forever,as far as I am concerned. 7554

June 26, 1981 Tape No. 2838 NM - 2 MR. CARTER: But I am very, very surprised that the gentlemen across the way are softheaded enough to fall for that kind of nonsense. While I have the opportunity to speak about the matter under discussion,! would like to­ it has been suggested that we are trying to close the House in a hurry. Well, I would like to make my own position cruite clear. Some of us have to work for a living and, those of us who do, find the three hours per day of rest and repose that we can have in here.a very welcome respite from the work­ a-day world.

So as far as I am concerned,! am quite prepared to sit here all Summer. Our Leader has very wisely made it absolutely clear that he is not going to go into extended sittings. We are not going to sit morning, noon and night like we used to before. We will sit merely three hours a day. And,in fact , in this coming week we are only going to be sitting for four sessions. There is a holiday on Monday , I understand, and the House will be closed , until Tuesday. So merely four sittings a week is nothing. MR. STIRLING: Then there is Regatta Day. MR. BARRETT: That will be another day. MR.

CARTER: In my view,I think the House should sit permanently because where else could you have such free entertainment? Where else could the public of Newfoundland see Joey lovers? They are a rare breed. They can come in and see avowed Joey lovers. MR. STIRLING: MR. CARTER: see so many congregated. They are sitting up there now. You would have to go to a zoo to 7585

June 26, 198~ Tape No. 2838 NM - 3 MR. CARTER: I think the Speaker, or hls officers, sho~d charge admission to the public. I am sure they would do very well. And it would perhaps defray some of the costs of taxes that we have to .pay. I am sure people wo~d be very glad to see such freaks sitting in their seats. 7586

June 26, 1981 Tape No. 2839 DW - 1 MR. J. CARTER: Anyway as far as I am concerned, I would be very happy to sit here all Summer if necessary. As I say,it is a very welcome respit e:_ f_r.om physical labour. 'Ihe seats are comfortable, the backs are padded. I find sometimes, that I can even get forty winks or thirty winks and it is very welcome. So I am quite prepared to sit here as long as it is necessary. MR. D. HANCOCK: You are going to have to,because you have no choice. MR. J. CARTER: In the meantime, criticism is made against this government for raising the taxes as high as they have to be.

Well, of course, it is no secret why the taxes are as high as they are, the scorched-earth policy that we inherited from the former Liberal government has left us with very little discretion, very little room to manoeuvre. And I still say that if Newfoundland had not been mis-administered for twenty-three years ,we could have perhaps done something. But the moment we got into power we were faced with a $200 million deficit on behalf of the Stephen­ ville Linerboard mill.

We had several choices, we could have torpedoed the project- perhaps that would have been the best thing to do and let John Doyle pick up the pieces. MR. S. NEARY: That is what you did. MR. J. CARTER: No, we did not. We tried to make it stagger on until it .was shown to be absolutely unworkable. So very rapidly we found the public debt to be over $1 billion. It was quite beyond our control. Now inflation has taken its toll and we have been left with a current account problem that leaves us very little room to manoeuvre.

So I think hon. gentleman are being very unfair in criticizing ' us for the few cents we are trying to take in. I do not like taxes. I do not suppose anybody does. But I do have one suggestion that might have some merit and that is if avowed Liberals were to pay double the taxes,perhaps we would take in a 7587

June 26, 1981 Tape No. 2839 DW - 2 MR. ,J. CARTER: little more income. I think that,in justice .an avowed long-term Liberal should agree voluntarily to pay double sales tax, double income tax and double every other tax. I think it is the only fair way to do it. After all,they are the cause of most of the trouble, so there. MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt): of Belle Isle. MR. J. MORGAN: a while. MR. E. ROBERTS: Order, please! The hon. member for the Strait Oh, you have not been here for No, I have not been here for a while, Mr. Chairman, and I must say seeing the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.

Morgan) again I do not regret that I have not been here for a day or two. Seeing the Minister of Fisheries, Mr. Chairman, is like thinking one is having a bad dream and waking up anq realizing it is not a bad dream at all. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. E. ROBERTS: But, Mr. Chairman, let me, first of all, deal on the merits with what the hon. gentleman for Mount Scio (Mr. Barry) said and that will not take - I am sorry, St. John's North (Mr. Carter). Again I have done a disservice to the member for Mount Scio. It will not take me very long on the merits with what the hon. gentleman for St. John's North said.

First of"all, I would thank him for his testimony but I would remind him of the old saying , 'that v;hile the light holds out to burn the vilest sinner may return'. And there are many of us who believe that the Liberals would have formed the administration in 1975 if Mr. Smallwood had done what many of us believe he ought to have done. We will never know that. All I can say is that it is a great pity 1 because the Province would have had a considerably better government 7588

June 26, 1981 Ta .pe No. 2839 DW ·- 3 MR . E. RO BER TS: than, in fact, it did end up with. But that is neither here nor there. That is history and I am more concerned about the future. On the history tlJ,ough, you know, I think it is worth recording. As my friend for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) has said Mr. smallwood did give his house to the Province, the deed has been down there for nigh on twenty years if anybody wants to go look it up. And as far as I have ever been able to determine, it is a valid ~t - not a valid bequest, a valid gift to the Province and the house remains in Mr.

Smallwood's custody or pos­ session for his lifetime and that of his wife if she should survive him. Eoth Mr. and Mrs. Smallwood are very much alive and very much with us. After that, as ! understand it, the title remains where it now is, with the Provinqe. The right to possession also comes back to the 75 89

June 26, 1981 Tape No. 2840 MR. ROBERTS: Province and, as I understand it, if it is not lived in by the Premier then it is to be used as a - MR. NEARY: Summer residence. SD - . 1 MR. ROBERTS: - Summer residence. In the meantime 1 Mr. Smallwood maintains it and repairs it and insures it and keeps it up, not an ungenerous gift. My friend from St. John's North (Mr. Carter) would be well advised to remember the old adage, 'Not to look a gift horse in the mouth', He ?ersists in looking in the other end of a horse.

And seeing where he sits and who he must look at immediately in front of him, he looks at the other ends of horses. But there is a saying that, you know, 'One should not look a gift horse in the mouth'. And Mr. Smallwood,, by giving this House to the Province - and let it be recorded - has done considerably more for the Province than either of his two successors to aate. Mr.

Moores set a number of precedents, and the present Premier is carrying them on and embellishing them,and I would wager we are probably up to $250,000 a year in the all-in cost for Mount Scio house now, not only a very expensive accommodation for a person who is well paid, the highest paid elected official in this Province and one of the highest paid people on the Public Treasury of this Province, not only are we providing him with expensive accommodation but we are the only Province in Canada to provide a Premier with any kind of accommodation at all.

And that is a commentary on, you know, the values of a government in what is, they keep telling us and keep telling us accurately, the poorest Province in Canada at least in economic terms. You know, here we are, we are the poorest Province in Canada in terms of per capita income, we are the most heavily taxed and yet we can find about $250,000 a year, by my estimate, to provide an accommodation for a Premier who is paid - what? - $60,000 or $70,000 a year. I do not 7590

June 26, 1981 Tape No. 2840 SD - 2 MR. ROBERTS: know what the Premier's salary is but it is of that order. It is a veryhandsome salary. And I simply say that that is a commentary upon the moral values of the Premier. He is not here this mor~ing, he is off with the governors and the other premiers and that is well and good, that is fair enough, but I hope somebody draws those words to his attention because I say it is a very telling commentary. And the other gentlemen opposite, who are so busily currying favour with the Premier as is their wont, would be well advised to draw those words to him.

They may not please him but I will tell you that they are a very telling commentary on the moral qualities, the moral values, the moral absolutes of the Premier who not only permits it but has embellished it and encouraged it. And that has been the case. We are paying for five security guards - I think it is five security guards - housekeepers - MR. NEARY: MR. ROBERTS: That does not include the-bodyguards. Well, the bodyguards are a separate issue altogether, I am just talking mainly about the people who cut the grass- I mean, we are supporting an estate, a wealthy man's estate.

In fact, I doubt if there is an estate in Newfoundland that could equal it. Perhaps my friend from St. John's North (Mr. Carter) could confirm, there is not an estate in Newfoundland, not a residence in Newfoundland the equal of Mount Scio House, not even Government House itself. MR. CARTER: (Inaudible) MR. ROBERTS: Where? Mount Scio House? Tell me one that is better. Bowaters could not afford Strawberry Hill, they have it for sale. MR. CARTER: Go in and look around Murray's Pond MR. ROBERTS: Murray's Pond? I go in and look around Murray's Pond, I am one of the people who belongs to the club there.

There is another across Murray's Pond. I could name, but I will not, I could name each individual house there. It 7581

June 26, 1981 Tape No. 2840 SD - 3 MR. ROBERTS : could be the hon. gentleman from St . John's North (Mr. Carter)- there is not a house there that compares to Mount Scio Bouse nor is there a house there that has groundsmen supplied by the public chest and security supplied by the public chest . And I do not mean police security I mean the kind of security , the watchmen employed by my friend the Minister of Public Works and Services (Mr. Young) . What are there- he is sitting next to the member from St. John's there - five, six, seven men full-time, simply to be a night 7592

June 26, 1981 "Tape No. 2841 EL - 1 MR. ROBERTS: watchman? Not 5e=ity. And my friend fran IaPoile (S. Neary) tells me we are talking of a chain link fence - are we? I do not know if that is to keep the Premier in or to keep the people out. MR. NEARY: Yes. And gates that are electrified. MR. ROBERTS: Well, I mean it is-just absurd. It is hard to believe that in a Province we have a Premier who has lost touch with reality, and has so lost touch with the concerns and the needs of people in ·this Province that he tolerates it. You could see it if it were forced upon him.

You could see it if a gun had been held to his head and he had a choice between being shot or living up there. MR. CARTER: What was he to do with it? MR. ROBERTS: What was he to do? Let him sell it. I will tell you what should be done with it, let him put it on the block. MR·. NEARY: Right. MR. ROBERTS: And let the Premier do what every other Premier in Canada does, find his own accommodations. MR. NEARY: MR. ROBERTS: Turn it into a horne for battered children.

I he~rd the Premier in one of his voiceless - I am sorry, breathless voice clips on the radio a year or two past, after he became Premier saying, 'the reason I go for Mount Scio house, the reason I live there is I cannot afford to find a house in St. John's'. And here is a man making $60,000 or $70,000 a year. Well, what does that say for everybody else, the 99.99 per cent of the people of St. John's who do not look to that kind of income and who cannot expect to get it?

I do not want to go on about - I will simply say it is a telling commentary upon the moral qualities of the Premier of this Province, that he would not only tolerate it but he would ernbelish it and encourage it. 7533

June 26, 1981 --Tape No. 2841 EL - 2 MR. ROBERTS: What about the silver there? What is it $20,000 or $30,000 worth of silverware. MR. NEARY: MR. CARTER: MR. ROBERTS: MR. CARTER: MR. ROBERTS: about how it was built. MR. CARTER: Paintings. Tell us about - Tell me about - -how it was built (inaudible). How it was built - I know a little Tell us about that. MR. ROBERTS: Dr. Kavanaugh sold it under expropriation - it was expropriated, in fact, and there was either an agreed upon compensation or the procedures under the Expropriation Act were used. The house was then torn down. MR. CARTER: Why? MR.

ROBERTS: Because it was not adequate. And I could table, or the han. gentleman can get from the Public Works files the reports of the engineers. MR. CARTER: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: I did not tear it down. I was in the Cabinet that tore it down. MR. CARTER: (Inaudible) . MR. ROBERTS: The han. gentleman asked me, let him take the answer. It was a condition of the employment of Lord Taylor, the President of the university. Now, whether it was a wise condition or no, I do not know. It was a condition of employment.

The new house was built but how does that justify the Premier living in it, refurnishing it and remodelling it for $120,000, which is the figure that was tabled here in this House a year or so past, including silverware? My Lord, there is nothing in Government House to match that, where we have a hund­ red and fifty years of history. And we have the furniture in Government House, some of it, thanks to the present governor and his good lady, they have rescued it and refurnished it, refurbished the place. It is in splendid shape. The Paddons are going in now and will carry on that tradition.

Some of it is the original furniture, still at Government House. 7594

June 26, 1981 MR. CARTER: MR. NEARY: MR. ROBERTS: MR. NEARY: MR. ROBERTS: _Tape No. 2841 EL - 3 The original furniture. No, Moores tore up the furniture. No, at Government House. Oh, Government House. But nothing at Government House with one hundred and fifty years of tradition, to match at Mount Scio house. So, I say simply to my friend from St. John's North (J. Carter) it is a telling commentary indeed upon the moral qualities, upon the judgement, upon the values of the Premier of this Province, because the Premier has not only tolerated this, he has encouraged it. MR. CARTER: A bit of lawn. MR.

ROBERTS: I am sorry. MR. CARTER: A bit of lawn is all he has. MR. ROBERTS: A bit ·of lawn and $120,000 in re- furnishings in a house that had thousands more spent on it in the two or three years before that. And the silver and the crockeryware - what is there? - acres of lawn up there: Se=ity guards. MR. CARTER: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: You know, Mr. Chairman, now they are going to blame Mr. Moores, the former Premier. They can blame Mr. Moores, he started it. Mr. Moores, I believe, at least paid some rent. He did not come close to the economic rent. MR. NEARY: That is right. Exactly. MR.

ROBERTS: But he paid some rent. He paid some rent. MR. NEARY: $650 a month. MR. ROBERTS: So, there we are. And hon. members opposite can think about that as they - the lady who represents Gander (H. Newhook) and cannot find a few thousand dollars so people can have water fit to drink, cannot find it in her cap- acity as Minister of Municipal Affairs, can only find it 7585

.....l~- June 26, 1981 Tape 2842 EC - 1 MR. ROBERTS: for Tory districts, the lady from Gander (Mrs. Newhook) can mull on that as people come to see her and she says, 'We cannot find $10,000 for some se11rerage - MR. MORGAN: district. Garnbo? MR. ROBERTS : I never thought Garnbo was in a Tory The hon. member from Bonavista South would do well to take the advice given many years ago by a fi~:1errnan, that you learn more - MR. MORGAN: (Inaudible) Deer Lake (inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: The hon. gentleman from Bonavista South should keep his ears open and his mouth shut and then he might learn something.

I distinctly said Gander. And the hon. lady who represents Gander in this House cannot find a few thousand dollars for the people there in Griquet who have been told by the Department of Health officials that they are drinking sewerag_e. She cannot find a few thousand dollars for a survey, and yet, the government of which she is such an adornment and which she supports so slavishly, that government can find about $250,000 a year to put into a residence for one man and his family, a wife and two children, I believe, and can provide him with servants. MR. NEARY: MR. ROBERTS: That is right, maidsr chambermaids.

Well, housekeepers. And, you know, I say that to the lady from Gander who is a decent, honourable Newfoundlander. I do not know how she squares that. She probably squares it by not thinking about it. MR. ROBERTS: And I do not mind the gentleman from Bonavista South, he does not know any better, but the gentleman from St. John's North just does not want to think about that. MR. NEARY: Just look at the pity OL his face. 7586

June 26, 1981 Tape 2842 EC - 2 MR. ROBERTS: Anyway, ~~r. Chairman, I want ' to come to an even more serious thing. We are talking about a financing bill, we are talking about some money for the government. I want to talk about what came out in Question Period this morning, this tale of non-feasance amounting almost to mal-feasance on this spray programme. Now, let us look at what happened. The government have taken a decision to implement a spray programme. They have taken it, ~~ my view, about three years too late. They took it only after they were forced to take it.

They avoided and evaded it every way they could. It was a classic case of a Royal Commission being used as a shield for a group of cowards. The Royal Commission are not the cowards, the government that appointed them were cowardly, trying to shelter behind it. No new data came out - I read the Commission report - no new data, nothing new except the government .said, 'Well, now maybe we have a shield we can hide behind.' MR. CARTER: What about the Indian Bay fire? MR. ROBERTS: What about the Indian Bay fire in 1961? What does that have to do with it? MR. CARTER: The biggest forest fire ever in Newfoundland. MR.

ROBERTS: Sure. And it was fought magnificently by the late Ed Ralph, by Qr. Stuart Peters, the late Bill Keough was minister at that time, and I will tell you, Newfoundland has never been better served than by that minister and by his officials at that time, and by the hundreds of men who fought that fire. MR. CARTER: (Inaudible) Mr. Diefenbaker to give federal assistance to them. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Diefenbaker finally sent federal assistance to them, by devil, and sent us a bill for it which we never paid, nor would we, nor should we. 7597

Jun e 26, 198 1 Ta pe 2842 EC - 3 MR. ROBERTS: But, Mr. Chairman, we have this situation where the goverrune~t started a spray prograrnrile. The Minister of Environment (Mr. Andrews) who is turning out to be a weak and vacillating and irresolute minister - his ministerial duties are being attended to by inattention and by absence and by happenstance - the r,1inister of Envirorunent"tables a- that is probably not parliamentary so I will not say it - a half-baked contingency plan and the inevitable happens. Last evening, we do not know when, 7:0 ·o P.M. or 8:00 P.M., late in the day, an aircraft got into trouble.

Now, that is an entirely foreseeable event. The men flying the aircraft, quite properly ought to be concerned about their own lives and nobody would fault thent for that. The men flying the aircraft decided obviously - I say obviously because no minister has given us any information; they do not know any information, they are off at lavish dinners, slopping up the -food and the liquor, that is what they are doing. As opposed to trying to find out what is happening, they are off at lavish dinners. MIL CARTER: Envy will get you nowhere. MR. ROB ERT S: Envy will get me nowhere. I say to my friend from St.

John's North, the last thing I need is another lavish dinner. MR . NEAR Y: MR. RO BERTS: little of i t. Or liquor or booze. I need none of that. I take very But now, Mr. Speaker, 7598

June 26, 1981 Tape No. 2843 NM - 1 MR. ROBERTS: But now, Mr. Chairman, the ministers - here comes the Minister of Environment (Mr. Aridrews) lolling into the House - lolly gagging - let him come in and hear this. Because what he is about to hear is more relevant than anything he has told us this morning. We have an entirely foreseeable event, an aircraft gets into trouble. The pilot decides he must jettison his load, 2,600 imperial gallons as I recall it - MR. NEARY: That is right. MR. ROBERTS : - US gallons, smaller than imperial, 2,600 US gallons of matacil solution, dangerous, potent.

I do not know how dangerous or how potent, but very dangerous and very potent. We do not know really where that load was jettisoned or under what conditions? We do not know whether - it was not jettisoned according to the contingency p~an, it was jettisoned obviously in an effort by the crew to head off what appeared to them, and I have no doubt appeared to them genuinely, to be a threat to their lines. So they dumped it overboard the first chance they got as far as we can tell, just let her go. And I do not blame those men. I do not blame them at all.

They are not being hired or being paid to risk their necks unduly or to take that kind of hazard. And that aircraft then hightails it back to Gander. No minister over there knows where that aircraft came from or what line of flight it followed. We do know, it was brought out by a gentleman over here, that it dripped matacil, dripped or leaked or poured matacil all the way back to Gander. Did it cross Gander Lake? It almost certainly had to cross Gander Lake. If it did not cross Gander Lake it cros -sed Gander River. It probably crossed the town of Glenwood and may well have crossed the town of Gander.

Because if that aircraft, Mr. Chairman, was in a state where the crew said, "We have got to jettison this stuff," rather than take it back to Gander- remember they can 7589

June 26, 1981 Tape No. 2843 NM- 2 MR. ROBERTS: land with that fuel in it,or that solution in it. Obviously that is what you do if your air­ craft- if you have to abort your flight you take her back to your base with the matacil aboard. But no, the situation was more serious than that, more urgent than that. They had to dump it. They had to get rid of that weight. I do not know what it weighs? 2,600 US gallons of water would be worth- it would be 2,600 pounds weight, a lot of weight. Matacil ,I assume,is at least as heavy as water. So they had to jettison it. Obviously an emergency situation.

And then they went straight for Gander. They went straight for that airstrip at Gander. And I say to the Minister of the Environment (Mr. Andrews) that he is negligent in not having made the least effort. He was out at a party last night and his officials finally tracked him down. I do not blame him - it was a government dinner, I do not blame him for going to it. MR. ANDREWS: No, (inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: Good for him. And so he shopld have been. And,in fact 1if rights were rights he would be there as chairman but because of the Premier.

And I say to the minister that he was there not doing anything except being part of the applauding clap. That was his job. Part of the mob that applauded slavishly. MR. NEARY: - a slave. MR. ROBERTS: No, the hon. member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter) is a slave. The hon. gentleman from Burgee­ Bay d'Espoir applauded slavishly and lavishly. Now, Mr. Chairman, that air­ craft went straight for Gander. And we ask the minister - 7600

June 26, 1981 Tape No. 2844 DW - 1 MR. E. ROBERTS: he has not been able to tell us,but we have asked him repeatedly where it went, what it crossed? And we have also asked how much matacil flowed out of it when it aborted and dumped its 2,600 gallons of solution. MR. S. NEARY: The Gander town council are having an emergency meeting about it. MR. E. ROBERTS: Well, my friend for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) has just told me that the town council at Gander are having an emergency meeting about this - MR. S. NEARY: Right at this moment. MR .. E. ROBERTS : - right at this moment.

Because that aircraft I would say, in the absence of any further information from the minister, dripped matacil for every inch it crossed, every inch ittraversed from the point where it d~ped its load right back to the town of Gander, over the town of Gander and into the airport. The airport at Gander is on the Eastern side and that spill was on the Western side of the community of Gander. The area where it was dumped was to the left, West of Gander, the Western end of Gander Lake. So I say to the minister that he and his colleague, the Minister of Forestry (Mr. Power) - whatever his

long title is - are negligent in the extreme. They have made no effort to find out. I am not saying they should have been out there mopping it up but they damn well have a duty to-make sure somebody is,and they have a duty to make sure officials do what they are told to do. That is what ministers are about. That is why we have ministers. That is what Crichel Downs, that doctrine is all about that a minister answers for everything his offifcial does. 7601

June 26, 1981 Tape No. 2844 DW - 2 _ MR. E . ROBERTS : The Minister of Environment (Mr. Dawe) does not even know whethercaustic soda was used to neutralize that or whether bats were used. And I will say, furthermore, he does not care, he just does not care! MR. ANDREWS: Do not be so cynical. MR. E. ROBERTS: I am not being cynical. I am responding to a minister who stood in this House and mocked and joked and laughed. And I say to him, on the evidence before us today,he does not care! He has made no effort! He does not give a hoot or a holler! He does not know whether it was caustic soda or batts or straw or sand!

He does not know how much matacil was dumped, where it was dumped or on whom it was dumped! And he could not care less! All he talks - he gets up and he says,'I now read the contingency plan for the second time~ I think those were his exact words to which I would add,I hope he understands it for the first time. There is no con- tingency plan. And now we know why the government - we did not oppose the matacil, we did not oppose the spray programme, we opposed the government's efforts to block injunctions.

And now we have a legal situat~on in this Province where the Gander town council,thanks to the votes of the Mayor for Gander - not the Mayor,the member for Gander and her colleagues - MR. S. NEARY: The former Mayor. MR. E. ROBERTS: The former Mayor of Gander cannot go to court and cannot get an injunction to restrain this. They can only go after the damage ·is done. Oh, sure, when the damage is done then they can go in and take action. Then the writs can fly. But if the town council of Gander comes to the conclusion that the spray programme is still inherently dangerous there is not a thing can be done!

And the member for 7602

June 26, 1981 Tape No. 2844 DW - 3 MR. E. ROBERTS: Gander (Mrs. Newhook) did her

part in that. She voted for that legislation, she is part of the Cabinet, · she is still in the Cabinet, she supports it! MR. HOUSE: And will be. MR. E . ROBERTS: I hope she will be too. She has done more for the Cabinet than most of the members including the Minister of Health (Mr. House). She adds considerably to the stat~re of that Cabinet. I would simply say to the Minister of Health that if he left the Cabinet and moved to Hebron ,he would thereby raise the intellectual level of both communities. MR. W. HOUSE: (Inaudible) miss you out of the House again. MR. E.

ROBERTS: No, I do not care if he misses me or not. I would simply say that if he moves from here to Hebron where nobody is living,he will raise the intel­ lectual level of both communities significantly. MR. W. HOUSE: At least I know where Hebron is (inaudible). MR. E. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, the nurses will take care of the hon. Minister of Health in due course and in the proper way. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. E. ROBERTS: Now, does anybody else want to put his half-witted effort in"i' Does the minister want to try again"? No! MR. HOUSE: Well, then,let the minister be quiet. (Inaudible) half-wit. MR. E.

ROBERTS: MR. BENNETT: MR. E. ROBERTS: I am sorry. (Inaudible) . The member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter) -I am sorry, St. John's West (Mr. Barrett), part of the gas house gang - SOME HON. MEMB ERS : Oh, oh! 7603

June 26, 1981 Tape No. 2844 DW - 4 MR. E. ROBERTS: -the gas house gang,erupts himself again and makes a spectacle of himself here in the Chamber. Now, Mr. Chairman, let me come back to say that one of the many 7604

June 26, 1981 Tape No. 2845 EL - 1 MR. ROBERTS: things that the minister have not dealt ~rith in this matacil issue is whenever those air- craft have been checked out, what kind of fault caused the pilots of that aircraft to get to the point where they had to take emergency action, obviously justified only, and I am quite pre­ pared to believe that it was justified, justified only in their belief that their lives were in eminent threat, in eminent dan­ ger. Now, is that aircraft going back in the air today? What is wrong with it? What caused this kind of failure?

One of the four engines smoked, I think that is all we are told. The ministers are so uncaring, so unable, so negligent that they have not even told us if they have made any efforts. I will bet they have made no checks on that. .I will bet there are no mech­ anics that the ministers know of. You know, here we are with a spray programme, a ~ecessary programme,and I am not the least bit ann­ oyed at the canards being spread by gentlemen opposite that we are against it. That is just the mark of desparate men and intellectually dishonest men. I do not pay any heed to that. MR. CARTER: Why are you against it? MR.

ROBERTS: I just said it. It is the mark of intellectually dishonest men to say we are against it and my fri~nd from St. John's North (J.Carter) just confirmed that. Now, Mr. Chairman, let me come back again to say we have a spray programme. We have a situation where no person may use the courts of the land. The courts of the land have been closed to the citizens of this land by the fait of this government and we now have the situation where we have had an accident. Fortunately, as far as we pre­ sently know, no grave harm done, as far as we know.

We do not know what - that aircraft must have flown over Gander Lake - MR. NEARY: It did. It did. 7605

June 26, 1981 Tape No. 2845 EL -.2 MR. ROBERTS: which is the water supply for the town of Gander and, I believe , for Comnunity of GlenMX>d. MR. NEARY: They think a lot .of ths stuff went into Gander Lake. That is why they are having an em­ ergency meeting. MR. ROBERTS: And that substance was not all dumped. If the situation was that serious, then it had to be dumped immediately and that weight had to be got out of that aircraft then they went straight for that airport, straight right across Gander Lake, conceivably across the t~wn of Gander.

It is pretty hard to get to Gander Airport in any- thing from about 180 degrees on the compass to about 320 degrees on the compass without going directly across the town of Gander, just about impossible. And so, I will say to the minister that he has to tell us whether that aircraft crossed the town of Gander or not. And if it did cross the town of Gander, was it leaking and dripping and drooling matacil solution behind it as it went~ And if so, whathappens from there? You know, it is just not good enough, Sir. I have no quarrel with the Minister of the Environment (H. Andrews).

He got himself elected to the House, got himself in the Cabinet. Those methods speak for them­ selves. I do not need to say anything about them. Let him now deal with his office, that is_ all that worries me. I could not care less about the minister. I have no quarrel with him and I have no brief for him. He is the minister now. Somebody else will be the minister next year, somebody else the year after, it does not matter a hoot. You know, all these hon. gentleman over here, the hon. this and the hon. that, sure, they are hon. now.

They are ministers and they have all the prerogratives of office and all the perks of office and in due course they will all be out. Nothing is more sure and certain than that. The 7606

June 26, 1981 Tape No. 2845 EL - 3 MR. ROBERTS: only question is for the good of the Province, will they be out quickly enough; And the answer is no, not quickly enough. But that is neither here nor there. But the Minister of the En- vironment (H. Andrews) - really you know, I have said sorre harsh things about him this morning and I intended to because I think his performance in Question Period was abysmal. I think he came through as a man who had no idea what had happened.

I do not say he should have gone to Gander and taken a sponge in hand , but he should have been up at seven or eight o'clock this morning and made some efforts to find out. And if he was up and if he did make the effort,then he should have a few words with the officials who gave him so little information. He does not know what happened. He does not know what happened. And neither does the Minister of Forestry (C. Power). But I am not concerned about the Forestry Minister, his job_is to dump it. MR. ANDREHS : I was up at six o'clock. MR. NEARY: He was not even home then. MR.

ROBERTS: I do not care what time he was up. I could not care if he was up, down, in or out. I do not care about when the minister got up. I care about what he does as minister. I do not care when he got up. I do riot care where he slept. I do not care about anything, except what he does as minister and I 1.;ill say as minister, what he has done in this House today is cause us grave disquietude. He does not know what happened. He does not know where that aircraft went. He does not know what came out of that aircraft in the form of matacil. He has made no effort.

He has made no effort to find out or no satisfactory effort. And, Sir, he owes this Committee in this House and the people in this Province an explanation. Instead all we get is his third-class sarcas1n, an 7607

June 26, 1981 Tape No. 2845 EL - 4 MR. ROBERTS: unsuccessful CBC type. Third- class carcasm ,and I have seen lots of third-class carcasm . And some day the hon. member may even rise to the level of the gentleman from St. John 's North(J.Carter) and come to second-class sarcasm . AN HON . MEMBER: Oh, oh ! MR. ROBERTS : Some day. But let tbe gentleman from Burgeo- Bay d'Espoir (H.Andrews), as long as he is the minister, wheth~. it is a day or a week or a month or 76 08

June 26,1981 Tape No .' 2846 ah-1 MR.ROBERTS: a year or forever,as long as he may live~ let him do his job properly. The members are concerned about this matacil situation, deeply concerned,and I think the minister owes us better. No'V1, Mr. Chairman, this is all in order because we are talking about money for this government and the way they spend it. So, now, one of my colleagues may have a few more words to say because I am about out of time and then we will have some more to say depending on what, if any , answers we get from the other side. MR.

CHAIRMAN (Butt): Before I recognize the hon. the President of the Council I would like to welcome on behalf of all hon. members four student ladies from Quebec who are here attending English Summer school. Please welcome Dianne Venette, Louise Syrnard , and Ann Sankrnarse. Lucy Borjeau SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I am just going to have a few words, particularly in relation to what the hon.rrernber for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts)-with respect to his speech.

He mentioned that he was a bit harsh and I think he was a bit harsh all the way through his speech today. The first part with respect to -he dwelt on the present Premier's Mount Scio House. I think ,really ,that it is indicative,that the hon. member , I think, was probably burnt a bit because of comments made by the Premier with respect to the hon. - MR. ROBERTS: MR. MARSHALL: (inaudible) well done. Well,certain comments that the Premi .er made with respect to the hon. gentleman not being in the House type of thing,and I think he was hitting back 7609

June 26,1981 Taper No. 2846 ah-2 MR. ROBERTS: and that.But just let me say this, as far as the Premier and this government is concerned what is done by the Premier, what is done by any minister and what is done by any member of the government is done up front, the people of the Province know it. You are debating an issue that has already been debated ad nauseam by everybody - MR. NEARY: (Inaudible) the ~1inister of Fisheries(inaudible). MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt): Order, please! MR. MARSHALL: Alright, that is fine.

I know I am speaking to. cynics and I know my remarks will be greeted accordinglyjbut I am just making that statement and that is the "statement and I will just leave it at that. With respect to the statement that the hon. mernb ·er made concerning the unfortunate occurrence,the unavoidable occurrence that occurred last night and with which the hon.members consumed Question Period and that, they can have their own impressions, Mr.chairrnan, and I say this, that this was an unfortunate and unavoidable situation.

The situation has been dealt with in the most expeditious manner possible by the two ministers concerned. They have shown, Mr·Chairman, that they have given all of the information MR. STIRLING: Why do you not let the minister defend himself? MR. MARSHALL: - concerned. They have shown that they have been on top of the situation and they will continue on top of th .e situation. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. STIRLING: l-<hat a bluff. MR. MARSHALL: I find it, Mr. Chairman- what a bluff says the hon. gentleman. All I can say is it takes one to know one and the hon. gentleman is not even capable 7 61 0

June 26,1981 MR. MARSHALL: l\'T..R. STIRLING: Tape No. 2846 of being a bluf-f. You certainly are. ah-3 MR. MARSHALL: That is the situation, Mr. Chairman, and it is rather regrettable,out of an unfortunate occurence which the government has responded to in as expeditious and effective and efficient a manner as possible and is now responding to it, that the hon. gentlemen there opposite are trying to make a Small little political point out of an incident which occ~red. And that is exactly what they are doing, Mr. Chairman.

They are outraged, they are making all sorts of comments, they are not satisfied with this, they are not satisfied with that, they are not satisfied with the other things. The hon. the Minister for the Environment (Mr. Andrews) was working on this last night, the hon. the Minister of F'O!""'S1s, Resources and Lands (Mr. Power) was working on ti1is last night. He has a map there, he has pinpointed the thing, he has given this House as much information as is available. He has also shown that actions were taken and that expeditious actions were taken , Mr. Chairman, in this matter.

It is in good hands and we are doing the best we possibly can with, as I say1 an unfortunate and unavoidable situation, one that occured as a result of a programme which had to be implemented in order to safeguard the forests of this Province. And the hon. gentlerren seem to be absolutely delighted if something unfortunate happens. "'1-tev seem to dwell on unfortunate matters, Mr. Chairman. 'lheir hearts lear up when they hear of something that is unfortunate. They would love, for instance, Mr. Chairman, I am sure, to see such tltings as the cases 7 611

June 26, 1981 Tape No, 2847 SD - 1 MR. MARSHALL: that are before the court on recall of power from the Province of Quebec to fail, they would exult in that. They would lave, Mr. Chairman, to see, and as a matter of fact they are working actively,to deprive us of our rights to our resources on the offshore. If that happens they will be exulting in it, they will be delighted • And they have shown, Mr.

Chairman, this morning how small-minded they are and why the people of Newfoundland cannot look upon any member of them as an appropriate alternative in government.And not even as you look at them, and you see so many of their leaders speaking from time to time, none of those personages will ever occupy the ministry benches let alone any of them ever being a First Minister. Small-minded men, Mr. Chairman, make small-minded statements, we see it day by day but never in my life have I seen a more vivid instance of it than today both in the Question Period and in the speeches that have been made.

To insinuate in this House that not only the Minister of the Environment (Mr. Andrews) and the Minister of Forest Resources and Land (Mr. Power) but any minister, any member of this House, is not concerned and shows no concern, Mr. Chairman, is about the basest thing that anyone could do.

Not just the Hinister of the Environment or the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands, every minister in this House, every member in this House, as well as the hon. gentlemen there opposite, I would assume, and I know that they are, would be concerned about this So I say to them stop trying to make their negative little political points over an incident which was an unfortunate incident,but one which so evidently the hon. ministers are grappling with and are doing the best they possibly can in the circumstances.

Now,I know the hon. member will get up and he will rant and rave and he will say, 'This is not so', but he can rant and he can rave until the cows come horne, the 7 61 2

June 26, 1981 Tape No. 2747 SD - 2 MR. MARSHALL: fact of the matter is, the government is doing the best they possibly can - MR. CARTER: Hear, hear. MR. MARSHALL: -they will continue to do it,and the efforts to date of the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr. Power) and the Minister of Environment (Mr. Andrews) have been exemplary, Mr. Chairman, in this and I know they will continue to be during the period,until the effects of this have been fully assessed and until we have mitigated or lessened any possible damage that may have occurred.

The Minister of Forestry knew exactly what happened, he knew where the matacil had to be jettisoned, he knew the place where the plane was, the time, what is being done, what is in the process of being done now, that there are people deployed to the area and I do not know what more the hon. gentlemen there opposite wish. I know what the hon. gentlemen there opposite wish, disaster, disaster everywhere, Mr.

Chairman, because it takes, as he says 1 and I say to him, it takes a bluff to know a bluff, it takes a disaster to know a disaster and the hon. gentlemen there opposite both jointly and separately are living disasters. MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt): The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: Mr. Chairman, we have a very serious problem and we have just heard standard political speech number three from the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall). MR. ROBERTS: The great defender. MR.

STIRLING: Anytime that a minister gets in trouble,you hear the standard,same speech from the President of the Council, 10h, they are only making political points~ He is the master of deception, Mr. Chairman. MR. MARSHALL: MR. STIRLING: order except - A point of order, Mr. Chairman. You cannot bring out a point of 7 61 3

.._ June 26, 1981 Tape No . 2847 so - 3 MR. 2-'.ARSHALL : To accuse somebody of being the master of deception is to accuse someone of deceit and I must ask that the hon. gentleman be asked to withdraw that. It is in Beauchesne, page 106, it is out of order, it is ruled unparliamentar y and I hardly need to quote an authority on this - 106 - to say that someone has deceived or deliberately deceived or intentionally deceived . And when the hon. gentleman calle someone the master of deceit, the hon. gentleman then is uttering an unparlianentary expression . I ask that the hon . gentleman withdraw it. It is not, Mr.

Chairman- it is unparlia:rrentary. And if the hon. gentleman wishes to make his points he can make them negatively but he cannot make them by inpugning the integrity of people in this House. SOME HON. l-1EMBERS : Bear, hear. 7614

June 26, 1981 MR. NEARY: MR. HODDER: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) : MR. HODDER: Tape No. 2848 Do not be so foolish, boy. To that point of order, To the point of order. NM - 1 Beauchesne, page 110, "Since 1958, it has been ruled parliamentary to use the following expressions:" and deceive is one of the words that is listed there. And I would contend, Mr. ~nren, that the term 'master of deception' would come within that particular listing because, Mr. Chainren,, deceive - there is no listing for 'master of deception' in there but it has been ruled parliamentary since 1958 that deceive is parliamentary. MR.

MARSHALL: No, no Mr. Chairman. I have quoted Mr. Chairman,where it is unparliamentary to say it : '!he distinction is this, Mr. Chairman, if the hon. gentleman wishes to see it. MR. HODDER: MR. MARSHALL : And I quoted where it is parliamentary. N:Jw, if the hon. gentlenan wishes to see it ~ distinction is this, somebody attempts innocently to deceive the House without having any ulterior motives one way or the other, but when you say somebody deliberately deceives the House, what you are doing you are imputing motives to him. vou are imputing intentions to him , Mr.

Chairman, when somebody says somebody is a master of deception.He talks about one, two or three or four political speeches, sure they are consistent, Mr. Chairman, because they are common sense against ~-hE! n_e')ative waves that come across from this Opposition Now, Mr.

Chairman, this is the House of Assembly, and this is the Legislature of this Province and there is no member of this House allowed to impugne the integrity of somebody, And using the words 'master of deceit' does it and I am surprised that the hon. member,who obviously lets his tongue run away with him from time to time,has not been up on his feet by now withdrawing it. 7 61 5

June 26, 1981 Tape No. 2848 NM ~ 2 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt): Order, please! With respect to the point of order raised by the han. President of the Council (Mr. Marshall), I rule that there is a point of order and I would ask the han. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Stirling) to withdraw. MR. STIRLING: Mr. Chairman,! accept the fact that the~ has to maintain what he considers order. I accept that in this House the fact is not a sufficient reason and I do do whatever Your Honour wishes. MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. STIRLING: wish me to withdraw. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MiL MARSHALL: to .withdraw­ AN HON.

MEMBER: MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. MARSHALL: The hon. Leader has to withdraw. I withdraw whatever it is that you Oh, oh! ~r. Chai~~n ! you have asked him Shut up maw mouth. Order, please! It is not, Mr. Chairman - it is not,Your Honour~ whatever Your Honour says that he has to withdraw. Your Honour represents in this House the per~o~ w~o is in charge of enforcing parliamentary rules. I have risen on a point of order that the hon. member has accused me of being a 'master of deceit'. And, Mr. Chairman, it is not sufficient for the hon. gentleman to say, "Oh, I withdraw whatever Your Honour says." As a matter of fact, Mr.

Chairman, that smacks of contempt. What, Mr. Chairman, the hon. gentleman must do is withdraw the words referring to me as 'master of deceit.' ·som:-t!O~ •• MEMBERS: Oh, oh! --- MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! Order, please! In order to dispense with this matter I would simply ask the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Stirling) to make an unequivocal withdrawal. 7 61 6

June 26, 1981 Tape No. 2848 NM- 3 MR. STIRLING: I make a withdrawal, Mr. Chairman. Whatever it is that you want me to withdraw I withdraw. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. STIRLING: Mr. Chairman - MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt): The han. Leader of the Opposition withdraws. The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: Mr. Chairman, I take always direction from you. If you want to look at the tone in which something was said, look at the tone of t:_l],e_).as_t remarks by the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall), Mr. Chaiman. . MR.

MARSHALL: He is 9h<?- .U~z1.9:~~g Your Honour's __ ruling, _ )1:e is challenging the Chairman's ruling. MR. STIRLING : ruling that is over. MR. CHAIRMAN: Opposition. MR. STIRLING: You have already accepted the