Third Session - Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLVII No. 37-1:30 p.m., Wednesday, April30, 1997 ISSN 0542-5492

Member ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUA Y, Louise, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HEL WER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATH LIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWA Y, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. McGIFFORD, Diane MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon.

MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEWMAN, David, Hon. PENNER, Jack PITURA, Frank, Hon. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. RADCLIFFE, Mike, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack, Hon. RENDER, Shirley ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis SALE, Tim SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STRUTHERS, Stan SVEINSON, Ben TOEWS, Vic, Hon. TWEED, Mervin VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann Vacant MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-sixth Legislature Constituency Thompson Wellington Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Pembina Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norbert St. Johns Elmwood Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Osborne Assiniboia St. James River East Riel Emerson Morris Lac du Bonnet River Heights Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Crescentwood Broadway Kirkfield Park Dauphin La Verendrye Rossmere Turtle Mountain Fort Garry Swan River Portage Ia Prairie Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C.

P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. Lib. Lib. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

2121 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, April30, 1997 The House met at 1: 30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Committee of Supply Mr. Gerry McAlpine (Acting Chairperson of the Committee of Supply): Madam Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Tweed), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Flooding Disaster Assistance Hon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I have a sta tement with copies for members of the opposition. Over the past several days what I have seen and all Manitobans have witnessed will remain with me for the rest of my life. I can tell you that the footage and the pictures you may have seen on your television or in your newspapers does not even begin to convey the full extent of this flood. Lifting offfrom within the safety of a dike, one is completely overwhelmed by the immense str etches of water beyond its protection.

Even from the air, to see these flood waters reaching to the horizon makes one respect the power of nature . During our tours I have met with the mayors, reeves, municipal officials and residents to discuss the overall flood situation in their communities. I have nothing but the highest praise for the various local officials, emergency volunteers, provincial and cit y officials and the military who have been working literally around the clock to make the emergency preparations go so we ll.

The at titudes and spirit of the people I have talked to has reassured me that the people of Manitoba are not about to give up the fight. Let me assure you, Madam Speaker, no efforts are being spared to continue to fight the flood. However, thousands of Manitobans are currently out of their homes and can only sit by daily to watch as the flood waters continue to affect what many Manitobans have spent a lifetime building.

Our objective at this point is to provide them with the comfort, relief and assurance that the government of Manitoba and indeed all citizens of our province stand behind them and will continue to stand behind them when they have the opportunity to rebuild their homes, their businesses and their properties. Under federal-provincial disaster assistance guidelines and programs, compensation is provided to homeowners and property owners. The upper limits to individual claim amounts were set some 20 years ago and have not been revised or adjusted since.

Officials have reviewed the current guidelines that exist in other provinces. Most recently, in the province of Quebec last year after the disaster of the Saguenay floods, the Province of Quebec raised the limit. Accordingly, I am announcing today that the government of Manitoba is increasing the individual property owner claim settlement limit to $100,000. This will put us on the same level that exists in the provinces of Quebec, Alberta and British Columbia. Specific detai ls of the programming will be announced in due course.

The purpose of my rising to make this announcement today is to provide assurances to the citizens of Manitoba who have been affected or will be affected, as well as members of the opposition who raised the issue here yesterday, that we are sensitive to their

2122 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 30, 1997 concerns and will implement those changes immediately. I believe the Government of Canada concurs with these moves, and I will be seeking early confirmation from them. Madam Speaker, my heart and my sincere thanks, as well as those of all Manitobans, goes out to those people on the front line who every day face great adversity and the biggest challenge of our generation. The flood of 1997 is a natural disaster of the highest magnitude, and I am confident that the people of Manitoba can handle this emergency if we continue to work together. Thank you. *

(1335) Mr. Gary Doer (Leader ofthe Opposition): I would like to thank the Premier for his statement in the House today. I, too, and all of us want to continue our praise and respect for the thousands and thousands of Manitobans that have been pulling together as one community. Whether they are directly affected in this flood or whether they are removed from the flood, we are all working as one co-operative community together to deal with the crisis that we face and the crisis that our fellow citiz ens face.

I also want to pay tribute to our fellow Canadians that are also initiating efforts of help and support, whether it is in schools in Albe rta or communities in other provinces across Canada. This has obviously touched the value system of our country, a country that is tolerant, that is fair, and a country that cares about each other. I want to thank on behalf of all of us the people across this great nation that are also coming together on behalf of our citiz ens.

As the Premier has indicated, there are thousands of people working night and day on this effort to stop the river and protect their communities and protect the safety of their citizens. I will reiterate that we believe the first and No. 1 priority, as the Premier has stated before, must be the personal safety of our citi zens. We have already had loss of life with this flood and the waters in our province, and we will respect any decision and have respected decisions that have been made by the government, difficult decisions, when a loss of life or injury is at stake.

That must remain the No. 1 priority for all of us. In recognition of this, I also know that there are people that are fighting for their property and for their families. I have heard, as the Premier has heard, many people say that we built our communities by being fighters; we did not build our communities by being quit ters. Let us stay. Let us fight. Let us be able to fight all the water that is coming across those dikes and be able to drain that water so that we can protect the families and materials that we have built up over generation after generation.

I respect those very difficult decisions and will respect the government while they are making those decisions. We are all working as one province together in dealing with the common enemy, and that is, of course, the water and the flood that is right throughout the Red River Valley. I want to thank the Premier for his statement today about the limits of flood compensation. We, of course, have been reviewing this matter because constituents have been calling us.

When we looked at the limit of $30,000 and raised it yesterday in the Chamber and researched the material, it seemed to us that the Province of Quebec, the Province of Alberta, the Province of British Columbia had raised the levels to $100,000. They had raised those levels, and we had felt that the Province of Manitoba should similarly raise those values. We also believe that the federal government would have to, under that formula, treat Manitobans the same way as they treated the people in the Saguenay or the people in the Alberta situation flood of two weeks ago.

We are pleased the government has made this announcement. We believe today the federal lead minister has stated that it is up to the province to set the limits. I am glad they have raised it. It makes a lot more sense for the families who are going to try to rebuild from this disaster and will want to have peace of mind in that rebuilding process and some part of that peace of mind will come from knowing what actually will be in the compensation package announced today. Thank you very, very much, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker: Does the honourable member for Inkster have leave? [agreed]

April 30, 1997 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2123 Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, on behalf of my Liberal colleagues in the Chamber, I also wanted to say just a few short, brief words on this particular issue. We indeed do applaud the Premier and the government for taking very quick action to resolve an issue that many Manitobans were greatly concerned with, because after the flood waters recede the issue of compensation is going to be on the top of minds of Manitobans throughout the province. It is indeed encouraging, and I listened very closely to what the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) and the Leader of the New Democratic Party (Mr. Doer) were saying in terms of as we try to visualize just the significance of this particular event as we watch through cameras and so forth being first-hand on some of the dikes and participating, all the different things that are occurring, whether it is the people, it is businesses, it is levels of government, and what I wanted just to quickly make reference to is levels of government. Madam Speaker, I look at you, the member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau), other members of different political parties who are chipping in.

We see gestures from different levels of government, the city, the provincial and the federal governments, working in a very co­ operative fashion in order to resolve this issue in the best way in which we can. * (1340 ) It is encouraging at times, when we sit inside a Chamber and we expect to see a lot of advocacy on behalf of a political party, that it shows that political parties when it comes time or when necessary, in fact, we can work togeth er.

That is really encouraging to see as an individual that people are prepared to put the polit ics of the day to the side so that when I, for example, saw Madam Speaker, you, with Reg Alcock and the Deputy Speaker, city councillors like John Angus, when I saw at the Scotia line individuals like Gord Mackintosh and others parti cipating, trying to send a message that this is indeed a nonpolitical issue and let us get the issue dealt with at hand.

That is why I wanted just to, on behalf of the Liberal colleagues inside this Chamber, applaud the government on its very quick act ion in dealing with the compensation package. Flooding Emergency Response Plans Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, I would like to, along with my colleague the Minister of Government Services (Mr. Pitura), provide a brief update to the House on the matter surrounding the flood. The levels at the Red River rose a quarter of a foot at Ste. Agathe and three-quarters of a foot at St. Adolphe over the last 24 hours.

City of Winnipeg levels rose one foot in the downtown area to up to two feet in Fort Garry. In the Selkirk area the river rose half a foot, and levels from Morris southward are now steady. The relatively rapid rise from St. Adolphe through Winnipeg is due to a surge of water that has arrived from the record levels that are passing past Ste. Agat he. The record levels on Lake Morris have pushed through the lake's relatively narrow outlet in that area, and the roads west of Ste. Agathe have been washed out by the surge of wate r. The crest of the Red River is presently at Ste. Agathe and is expected at St.

Adolphe tomorrow morning and at the flood way structure and the city of Winnipeg late tomorrow. The crest will reach Lockport on May 2 and Selkirk May 3 and Breezy Point May 4. After the crest is reached at any given location, we should be reminded that these levels will remain relatively steady for the following five days or so. Crest elevations remain unchanged from St. Adolphe to Breezy Point. In addition to the record flooding along the Red River, serious flooding is also taking place in the downstream areas of the Red River tributa ries due to backup from the swollen condition of the Red River.

Levels at the Grande Pointe area rose another inch since Tuesday and will likely rise anoth er few inches before the crest late tomorrow. Severe flooding is anticipated on the lower Netley Creek in the Petersfield area. Flows at the Portage diversion have been increased in recent days to greatly reduce Assiniboine River flows, and, in fact, Assiniboine is cut to a very marginal flow as a result of this. This will result in a slight decline of the levels of the Red River in downtown Winnipeg beginning on Friday. The crest in downtown Winnipeg

2124 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 30, 1997 is expected to be 24.5 feet above datum late on Thursday. The highest previous level since the floodway went into operation 28 years ago was 19.4. The 1950 crest was 30.3. *

(1345) Hon. Frank Pitura (Minister of Government Services): Madam Speaker, with regard to an update on the Emergency Management Organization, I just have a couple of brief comments. Fir st, in the area of Natural Resources, the department is developing a pass system for those persons re-entering to look after their operations. The other area that I wish to inform the House about is a fact mentioned yesterday about a re­ entry committee being struck having representatives from many departments and agencies.

I would just like to inform the House that that committee is progressing well, and I think that in a matter of days they will have a system available for those areas that will be available to re-enter so that re-entry can be made safe for those returning to their homes. One other thing that MEMO is now doing is assessing the inventory of sandbags in the event that we do need additional supplies as the Red River passes through the city and onwards north up to the Jake, and each day daily information on conditions will be provided to all the local authorities of im pacted municipalities.

There is one other thing, Madam Speaker. I just want to inform the House, as well, that within-from April 26 to yesterday, the R.M. of East St. Paul, West St. Paul and the R.M. of St. Andrews have declared states of local emergency. That is my update for today. Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): Madam Speaker, again, thanks to the ministers for providing that information to the House and for the people of Manitoba. The Minister of Natural Resources makes a good point that I would like to reiter ate concerning the crests, the level of the water that we will be facing over the next little while.

I think the minister is correct in pointing out that it is not just a one-day event with a crest, that the pressure on the dikes will remain high several days after the crest has been hit. We must be absolutely ever vigilant with our diking and with our inspections of the dikes, and inspections of the dikes following the hitting the crest. So I would encourage the minister and the government to continue that line of communication and let people be absolutely aware of what they are in for once the crests hit closer to the city.

I think the lessons that we can learn are lessons that were hopefully learned by officials in areas further south where the crest has already moved through. I also want to congratulate the Minister of Government Services on mentioning the committee that is designed to increase the amount of communication between different government levels.

It is our hope that this will reduce the amount of confusion concerning some of the facts that are out there, because of course we want all Manitobans to know what the facts are so they can make appropriate decisions to protect their lives and properties and that way minimize the amount of harm that our citizens will eventually come across. So with those few words, again I pledge our co­ operation on this side of the House in working against a flood that could damage a Jot in our city and in our province. Thank you. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Flooding Disaster Assistance Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): I would like to again thank the Premier for his commitment today on the $100,000. I forgot to mention there are some pamphlets out, dated April '97, on the $30,000 limit. I think we should make sure that those do not confuse the public. They were just recently published and released. Yesterday I asked the Premier some questions dealing with the levels in other provinces, and it was unclear to us and it is unclear from the interviews today about who establishes the upper limit.

It was our under­ standing when we asked the question to the Premier yesterday that the provincial government is able to

April 30, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2125 esta blish the upper-limit ceiling. Today that was confirmed by Mr. Axworthy in an interview in the media. Does the province have the right to set that upper limit, and how does the confirmation work with the federal government that the Premier indicated? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): It is our understanding that we do have the latitude to set those levels, and that appears to be confirmed by Mr. Axwor thy's comments on CBC this morning. There are some issues to do with the eligibility decisions that have to be made.

I do not want to get into the detail of this because I think that it is best for us to at tempt to clarify all of this by some discussions with federal counterparts, but I am told, for instance, on a specific example, that there is an anomaly whereby a church which is considered to be a secular institution would not be covered and that it has been rejected in the past by virtue of some interpreta tion of their guidelines. * (13 50) There are a number of things as to the application with respect to businesses that would deem things ineligible.

We would hope to work out all of those things, so we wanted to make the major announcement toda y about the $100,000 limit now replacing the $30,000 limit and work out all of the detai ls to ensure that there is no contradiction in what we might be saying to people who ask us about eligibility. Disaster Assistance-Cleanup Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Yesterday I raised the issue of cleanup and repairs, which are discreti onary on the part of the provincial government. Red River gumbo and muck that will be coming from the river presents a horrendous cleanup problem for any of those victims in Ste.

Agathe, Rose nort, Aubigny and other farmhouses in our communities and other houses that may be affected. The provincial government, it seems to us, has the right to decide the cleanup and repair. Again, that is a question we are getting from people that have already gone through this tragedy, will that be covered or not. Will the Premier be providing the decision on cleanup of that Red River muck in the homes that have been flooded to date, and can we give a definitive answer to the people that are calling us and calling the Premier on this issue? Hon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): Subject again to the detail which I might not be aware of because of the federal government's guidelines and our own guidelines, I can say that the new pamphlet which the member referenced in his opening

preamble has been outdated now because the $30,000 limit being changed refers specifically to restoration to a predisaster condition as being an eligible cost, and it refers specifically to cleanup and debris removal including allowances for persons undertaking their own cleanup. So I believe it is covered, and unless there is any further clarification that can be provided by my colleague the Minister of Government Services (Mr. Pitura), that is my interpreta tion of it. Mr.

Doer: It is our interpretati on that this government can make that decision on the "may be covered," and it would be covered upon that decision. Disaster Assistance-GST Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): A final question: The Premier mentioned in his sta tement that the existing policy is dated in terms of its application. I asked yesterday the GST question which has come through since the flood relief policy and the disaster relief policy were esta blished. The GST is not articulated as an item to be covered.

We also note that some people unfortunately have been laid off because of the flood and the disaster that it presents. Motor Coach Industries has lost some people for some four to six weeks and the UI provisions or the EI provisions, whatever they are called now, have been changed dramatically over time affecting the livelihood of people. Will the Premier be looking at updating the April '97 guidelines to deal with the GST and unemployment

2126 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 30, 1997 insurance and be discussing that with the federal government in terms of its impact on families? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Since both of those would fa11 under the realm of responsibility of the federal government, I wiJJ undertake to put that on the agenda for my discussions with the federal government in the very near future. Flooding EI Benefits-Layoffs Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Madam Speaker, at this point in time some 25,000 Manitobans have been evacuated from their homes due to the flood waters.

In addition to the risk or Joss of property, many families are without income at this point in time. It is my understanding, in looking at the government's pamphlet, that loss of income is one of the ineligible costs.

I would like to ask the Premier whether or not he will be able to, in his discussions with the federal government, ask them to waive the two-week waiting period for those who have been laid off-and that is currently the waiting period under the unemployment insurance system-so that these families do not have to undergo further financial hardship as a result of layoffs due to the flood conditions of this province. Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): I will undertake to put that item on the agenda for discussion with the federal counterparts as well. *

(1355) Mr. Reid: I would like to also ask the First Minister, when he has his discussions with his cabinet, whether he wiJJ make a determination on whether or not-since the people who are eligible for unemployment insurance, having been laid off due to flood conditions­ this government will undertake to top up the unemployment insurance payments to these families, so that they do not, in addition, suffer financial loss as a result of the flood conditions. Will you top up those funds in addition through the compensation package to these families, since they are not eligible for 100 percent of their lost income?

Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, one thing that strikes me is that people do carry income replacement insurance, and there is such a thing available. Under our disaster assistance program, we do not normally cover matters for which people could insure themselves. I will take a look at that issue and see whether or not there are things that we might consider, but the first thing that strikes me is that there is insurance available for loss of income. Evacuations-Financial Support Mr.

Daryl Reid (Transcona): I would like to also ask the First Minister: Because there are many displaced families from southern Manitoba and families here within the boundaries of the city of Winnipeg who have been laid off, members of the workforce who have been laid off as a result of flood conditions, what financial assistance is the government providing to these families in particular who have been displaced? It is my understanding that in the Saguenay region those families received some $2,500 to assist them over the rough period of time.

Can the minister advise what support the government is providing to these families through this difficult period oftime? Hon. Frank Pitura (Minister of Government Services): Madam Speaker, in response to the honourable member's question, when people are advised to evacuate an area and they register at the local authority from which they are leaving, upon arrival at the reception centre, once they are registered, they are provided with, I guess, a variety of packages depending on what their accommodation will be. If it is a congregate setting, then there is a certain package of assistance that is available.

If they are staying with friends and relatives, there is also a compensation package available. If they are staying in a hotel-or motel-type facility, there is, as well, a compensation package available for aid to these families, so that they can in fact be looking after all their basic needs in terms of accommodation, food and other sundry effects. Flooding Disaster Assistance-Advance Payment Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Premier (Mr. Filmon). For some time the municipalities have waited for decisions to be made regarding their compensation for equipment and overtime costs.

The provincial government can apply

April 30, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2127 to the federal government for advance payment, thus speeding the process and providing cash to municipalities sooner. Can the Premier indicate whether the province will apply to the federal government for an advance payment to cover costs incurred in this flood? Hon. Frank Pitura (Minister of Government Services): Madam Speaker, of course that is something that we have had some ongoing discussion with the federal government about-advance payments.

At the present time, I would like to inform the member that we have applied for an advance payment for the 1997 flood. Mr. Struthers: I thank the minister for that answer. Can he tell me then when municipalities can look forward to receiving their first compensation package? Mr. Pitura: Well, Madam Speaker, that is a difficult question to answer specifically at this time. Right now we have municipalities that are still very much in the thick of trying to keep flood waters from doing more damage than they have.

I think that once the flood event is over and re-entry has taken place into a lot of the communities, municipalities at that time will be prepared to come forward with a request for assistance, and, of course, it is difficult to respond unless they ask for assistance from us in that regard. * (1400 ) Mr. Struthers: According to federal guidelines, the province must have already incurred the expenditure. I am wondering can the minister tell me: Does this mean that the province has to pay out money before the federal government releases dollars to the province? Mr.

Pitura: That is, of course, what has happened historically, and as a result it sometimes takes up to two-the province pays for all the flood costs up front and then applies to the federal government for the amount that is cost-shared. By the time all the paper work is done and the auditing is done by the federal government, it can take up to two years to receive our payment. In fact, I would share with the House right now that we are still awaiting federal compensation from the 1995 flood and also from the 1996 flood.

So, to have had to keep on going, we could have a tremendous receivable from the federal government by the time 1997 is over. Federal-Provincial Agreements Tabling Protocol Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, yesterday I asked the Minister of Education to table the federal-provincial agreement on training. The minister appeared to think that a government press release would suffice, but later outside the House her staff did provide that agreement. For that, I would like to thank the minister and to thank her staff.

I would like to table that agreement in the House and to ask the Premier if he would consider adopting a protocol on the formal tabling in the Legislature of all federal-provincial agreements signed on behalf of the people of Manitoba. Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, I think that is a reasonable request. Given time limitati ons-you know, I do not know if I could do it two hours after or the day after, but as long as we have some understanding that we will do it as quickly, as expediently after, then I would certainly undertake to do that-oh, sorry, as long as the federal government agrees.

They have the right to say no to that. Ms. Friesen: I would like to thank the Premier for that response. Labour-Market Training Urban Aboriginals Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): I wanted to ask the Minister of Education if she could explain to the House the roles of both the federal and provincial governments in this agreement in respect of the training of aboriginal people both on and off reserve since it appears to be the only agreement signed so far which has specific mention of urban aboriginals. Hon.

Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, I must clarify to the member, first of all, that yesterday I had indicated that

2128 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 30, 1997 I would gladly share the details of the agreement with her. Read Hansard, please. It says I will gladly "share the details later with the member." I brought it today to table. It is in the Legislative Library, which is about 20 feet there, and could have been picked up easily. It has been broadly distributed to a wide variety of groups around the province, but she did not know that and yesterday I did not have it with me. I just want to clarify that because in the

preamble I think the member owes me a little bit of an apology for having misled my answer yesterday. Madam Speaker, in answer to the question- Point of Order Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Thompson, on a point of order. Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): On a point of order, Madam Speaker, the first question that the member asked was to the Premier (Mr. Filmon), and the Premier did answer that question I think very satisfactorily, that those documents should be tabled.

Now the Minis ter of Education, in response to a supplementary that was on a specific question about this, is trying to answer the first question when indeed I think the Premier just spoke for the government. I would like to ask-[interjection] You might also ask the Minister of Education to be a little bit more patient when points of order are raised. I would ask that she answer the second question that was explained instead of trying to justify why she did not follow the government policy as outlined by the Premier, which is to table those documents.

Madam Speaker: The honourable Minister of Education, on the same point of order. Mrs. Mcinto sh: Madam Speaker, yesterday in Question Period the member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) asked if I would table the agreement because it was secret. I said it was not secret, and I would be pleased to share the details of the agreement with her. We did not get a second or third question. I subsequently had my staff take her the agreement and brought it here to table today. I was to rise today in response to that question. I have another one I want to rise on, too.

I only indicate for the record this is not a secret agreement; it is in the Legislative Library, and the Premier has indicated our willingness to table it. So the member, I think, has no point of order. I was responding to yesterday's request. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Thompson did have a point of order. I would remind the honourable Minister of Education to respond to the question asked. * * * Madam Speaker: The honourable Minister of Education, to quickly respond to the question asked. Mrs.

Mcinto sh: The member had asked if there was to be satisfactory work done between aboriginals and the governments in terms of training. [interjection] Well, perhaps then she could repeat it, Madam Speaker, because I understood her to ask what the federal and provincial governments would be doing in regard to training for aboriginals as a result of this agreement. [interjection] That is the question? [interjection] Okay. Then I indicate that we will be developing specific details on that. We expect to be signing a bilateral agreement on this particular issue only.

We have indicated in here our desire and intention to proceed to develop specific training for aboriginals due to the fact that Manitoba has a very different makeup in terms of population than other provinces and per capita numbers of native peoples in this province. Ms. Friesen: Madam Speaker, could the minister indicate what process she is going to undertake for consultation with aboriginal people in the preparation of that bilateral agreement? Mrs. Mcinto sh: Madam Speaker, we have a whole series of people with whom we are in regular contact.

We also have organizations with whom we are in regular contact in the aboriginal community. We have a number of programs currently underway that are provincial only, and those are headed by a wide variety of native leaders in Manitoba We have begun work as well on a whole aboriginal strategy government-wide, so all ofthose people and all of those organizations-the

April 30, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2129 member may be familiar with many of the people that we consult with on a regular basis and that we have on our aboriginal steering committee, native leaders in Manitoba. So we will be looking at all of those organizations as we work with them to develop items for that. Flooding Permanent Dikes Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): My question is for either the Premier (Mr. Filmon) or the minist er responsible for emergency measures.

There has been a lot of time, effort and resources put into constructing new dikes in many different areas of the province, particulaily in the south and in the city of Winnipeg. I understand that there is a bit of a problem in terms of compensation if in fact some deem that they would like to, through landscaping, make these more of a permanent diking facility. My question to the government is: Is the government currently looking at areas in which we could have some of these dikes remain as a permanent fixture with proper landscaping? Hon.

Frank Pitura (Minister of Government Services): Madam Speaker, I think the honourable member for Inkster poses a good question. It is one that we have had considerable discussion on with the federal government because, as you may be aware, under the disaster assistance policy, if a temporary dike is constructed, it must be removed in order to receive assistance. So, during the 1996 flood, as an example, we do have some outstanding claims as a result of temporary dikes being placed and not taken down and returned back to their original form, and so therefore assistance could not be paid.

Now the conversation that we have had thus far with the federal government would indicate verbally at this point in time that they are prepared to allow a temporary dike that has been constructed and then converted to a permanent dike to be available or at least have an allowance for compensation, but at this point in time I just want to assure the member that it has been a verbal exchange so far. We are awaiting confirmation on that, but we feel fairly positive that that is going to occur. *

(1410) Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, would the minister be prepared to share with the Chamber a list of those potential dikes that the minister makes reference to so that we also might be able to participate in lobbying or whatever might be necessary in order to allow for these dikes where warranted to continue on with the proper, as I say, landscaping? Mr.

Pitura: Madam Speaker, the types of dikes that are being put into place, either to protect a residence­ well, in most cases they are to protect residences, and if they are of earthen dike and made as a ring dike as part of the potential landscaping of the yard, the decision and the criteria under which the dike would be deemed to be permanent or temporary would have to be left until such point in time as an inspection takes place once a disaster claim has been submitted, and then the inspection would take place, and there would be evaluation of the diking structure at that time as to whether it can be left as a permanent dike or it would be considered temporary and should be removed.

Green Team Funding-Flood Cleanup Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): My final supplementary is to the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson), where we have a program known as the Green Team, which is an environment job creation for young people program. My question to the minister is: Is the government prepared to add additional resources so that this particular program can be expanded, given the cleanup effort that is going to be required? I think it would be a very positive gesture, and we would like to see the government make that if at all possible. Hon.

Glen Cummings (Minister of Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, the components of that program associated with Natural Resources and Rural Development, we have already had discussions in that respect, and certainly the intention is that we will be looking to have an expanded opportunity to assist with cleanup and using that opportunity to involve the youth and provide them with the experience and certainly the opportunity to assist in the very extensive cleanup.

2130 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 30, 1997 Man Globe Partnership Agreement Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): My question is to the Deputy Premier. Madam Speaker, on Monday, the minister once again attempted to deny information on ManGlobe by saying that he did not know what ManGlobe agreement I was referring to. Madam Speaker, since October 28, '96, this minister has taken as notice many questions about the Canada­ Manitoba Communications Agreement with ManGiobe, so he knows what agreement we are talking about, and I want to know: Has he found his copy of the agreement, and will he now table it in this House?

Hon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): I am trying to be as co-operative as possible with the member. He makes reference to questions that were raised in the House last October. We have researched the Hansard, Madam Speaker, and find that we have in fact responded to the questions that the member has asked and, given the information that was requested, because it relates to the private nature of the company we are dealing with, there are certain things that can or cannot be released.

However, I can tell the member that we have as a province participated in a research and development project with a company known as ManGiobe, of which the province has put in three different tranches of money which have equalled $500,000. The money was not used for travel in the magnitude of which the member has referenced. The money was not used to the magnitude that the member has referred to as salaries. The money has been used appropriately as it relates to the project, and that is what I have been told by my department. Salaries-Information Request Mr.

Jim Maloway (Elmwood): My supplementary to the same minister is-the minister is clearly afraid to release this agreement. I would like to ask the minister: If Tracey Deleeuw as the project director did not get a salary of$240,000, and if Karen Alcock as the project manager did not get a salary of $120,000 as phase one of the ManGlobe project as the documents indicate, will this minister table any information he has that suggests what their salaries were? Hon.

James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): As it relates to the questions and the federal government and the involvement of- An Honourable Member: Karen Alcock. Mr. Downey: Oh, that is right. Any questions may be better asked of the federal government as it relates to the participation of individuals whom he has mentioned. I can, and I am somewhat reluctant to do this, Madam Speaker, but maybe in this situation I will, because it just clearly demonstrates how inaccurate the information is that the member brings to the House.

But I am informed that the individual referred to received something like $130,000 for some 18 months of work, not $240,000 for salaries. Now that could have been for wages and other research work carried out by that individual. Again, it is a research and development project. There are some 10 to 12 jobs employed in this company. It is still operating, and they have new private-sector money involved in the project. Partnership Agreement Mr.

Jim Maloway (Elmwood): My final supplementary to the same minister is this: Since November 4 of'96 and on April 15, '97, this minister misled the House when he said the $500,000 was a loan, will he come clean and admit now that the $500,000 was indeed a grant under the Canada­ Manitoba Communications Agreement, and will he now table that agreement as asked for many times in this House? Hon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): I am not aware of the fact that I made reference to the fact that it was a loan. If I did, I apologize to the House. Mr.

Steve Ashton (Thompson): Apologize twice; you said it twice.

April 30, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2131 Mr. Downey: Well, I apologize twice then if that makes the member for Thompson feel better, but there was no intent to in any way, shape or form to mislead this House, unlike the member for Elmwood who continues to bring inaccurate information to this Assembly. Public Housing Reduction-Westman Area Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): I have a question for the Minister of Housing.

I have been advised by a constituent that Manitoba Housing is in the process of selling off some of its social housing inventory in the Westman area, including units in towns such as Deloraine, Melita and Boissevain. Can the minister advise the House if this is the case and the rationale for this reduction in social housing in the Westman area of this province? Hon. Jack Reimer (Minister of Housing): Madam Speaker, as the member for Brandon is well aware, part of the problems that the- An Honourable Member: Brandon East. Mr. Reimer: Carman. An Honourable Member: Brandon East. Mr. Reimer: Brandon East, I am sorry.

We are in the process of an evaluation of the offer from the federal government for the devolution of their portfolio to Manitoba. No decision has been made on that, but part of the analysis is looking at the total assets of not only the federal offer but also the assets that we have under Manitoba Housing. It is a position of evaluation of worth. No decision has been made as to what units would or should be sold off. It is just a matter of going through the process of trying to come up with an idea of what type of program the federal government is bringing forth for an evaluation process. Mr.

Leonard Evans: I am not quite clear from the minister's statement where they stand on this matter. I want to ask him then: Is he telling us that he is satisfied that Westman has more than adequate social housing for families in need, or is he suggesting that they may at some point have plans to improve the situation in those various towns where there is a need for social family housing? Mr. Reimer: Madam Speaker, what I was relating to the member for Brandon East was the fact that Manitoba Housing has placed a very high priority on accommodating the people's needs in particular areas.

The areas that he is relating to have a certain amount of homes and housing accommodations that we will evaluate from time to time as to the needs and the vacancies. The vacancies will dictate the amount of people who are living in the unit. The fact that we are in the process of doing this type of analysis is a normal process in trying to come to some sort of direction as to the decision that the federal government is bringing forth for us. *

(1420) Program Expansion-Brandon Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): I wonder if the minister could tell the House whether, in his work and his looking into matters, he has any studies of the social housing situation in the city of Brandon and, specifically, any plans to construct more social housing where there, indeed, are just too many slum housing units in the city of Brandon. Hon. Jack Reimer (Minister of Housing): Madam Speaker, Brandon has been well served with public housing. We are in the process of always evaluating the needs. There have been additional units put through through the EPH programs.

These are units that have been brought on stream since we have come into government. We are not in a process of expanding the program because, as the member knows, the federal government has pulled out of the cost-shared approach of expanding any type of public housing in Manitoba. We are of the position that we can always try to improve with creative partnerships with other organizations in places where there is a need. So we will continue to look at any type of innovative way to provide housing in and around Brandon or in any places in Manitoba. Canadian National Institute for the Blind Layoffs Mr.

Doug Martindale (Burrows): Madam Speaker, the Canadian National Institute for the Blind was organized in 1918, and they have provided many important services to the visually impaired since that

2132 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 30, 1997 time. A consumer group, the coalition for service accountability, has written to the minister with questions, and I would like to ask the Minister of Family Services the same questions. That is: Would she be willing to talk to CNIB in Winnipeg and ask them why they are laying off front-line service delivery staff and hiring more people in management? What is she prepared to do to see that people provide services to those who need the services instead of increasing the management staff? Hon.

Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Madam Speaker, I thank my honourable friend for that question. I want to indicate to him, though, that we have funded to a significant degree the CNIB over many, many years to provide a very valuable service, and we have maintained that funding.

If internally at CNIB they are making decisions that are not in the best interests of the clients that they serve, I think it is incumbent that we all know and understand and try to work towards ensuring that appropriate services are being provided, but those are decisions that CNIB makes, and from time to time there is criticism. We want to work with those that are receiving services to ensure the services they need are there for them when they need them. Mr.

Martindale: I would like to ask the Minister of Family Services what she is prepared to do, since taxpayers of Manitoba give the CNIB over a million dollars a year, to have them accountable for how they spend that money so that the maximum amount of service goes to people in the community that need the service, and whether or not those services are appropriate. She certainly has been prepared to step in, in other situations, like with W ASO and with the Anishinaabe Child and Family Services. Here I am only asking that she make inquiries on behalf of the clients who are served in the community. Mrs.

Mitchelson: Madam Speaker, I certainly am not going to sit by and see services for people who need those services being withdrawn. I do want to indicate that I have in other instances worked with members of the community. When you had those who are adventitiously blind and deaf that were experiencing some difficulty with the kinds of services and supports that were being provided, we worked very co- operatively with them and the Canadian National Institute for the Blind, and we came up with a solution that would allow them more opportunity to make decisions over the kinds of care they needed as a result ofthat.

We will continue with the United Way and the government of Manitoba, who are significant funders of CNIB, and we will be endeavouring to ensure that the services that are provided are meeting the needs of those that require those services. Membership Policy Mr.

Doug Martindale (Burrows): Will the Minister of Family Services also work with CNIB and with consumers to see that they have a more open membership policy so that consumers do indeed have much more input into the level of services and the appropriateness of services since this organization really needs to be restructured in order to serve its client group much more efficiently? Hon.

Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Again, I say to my honourable friend that we want to ensure the services that are needed by people will be there for those people, that they have some ability to make the decisions on how those services can be delivered. We do know that CNIB is a national organization; they have a Manitoba chapter. Again, I will repeat that, in the best interests of the people that need the service, we will work with them to ensure that that service is appropriate to their needs. Education System Canadian History Curriculum Hon.

Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, I took as notice some time ago a question from the member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) who had inquired about the progress of the development of the history curriculum through the western protocol, asking if it would be ready in time for this September and, if not, would we be continuing as we currently are with the current offering of history. The answer is that she is correct in her understanding that the western protocol is slowing things down a bit.

I think it is a good reason to slow down because we will end up with something that is completely acceptable to

April 30, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2133 British Columbia, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Alberta, Northwest Territories and the Yukon, but it is going to take longer. We had indicated to the field, in 1996, that until the new curriculum was ready, the current system would apply and that holds in the field. We will be having confirmation of that because our plan of 1997 has indeed been delayed because of the western protocol collaboration. Eaton's Store Closures-Garden City Location Ms.

Becky Barrett (Wellington): Madam Speaker, we have just heard on the radio and I would like to ask the Minister oflndustry, Trade and Tourism to confirm the fact that it is highly probable or it looks very likely that the Garden City Eaton's will be closing.

I would like the minister to confirm if that is his understanding, and if that is the case, what is his committee and his group doing to try and stem this decision, tum this decision around, and give us an update on what his committee is doing about the Eaton's situation in the city of Winnipeg which includes not only the Garden City Eaton's but the downtown Eaton's and the Warehouse Store. Hon.

James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Madam Speaker, I understand that information is accurate as it relates to the Garden City Eaton's store, that they in fact have given announcements or notices that they plan to close sometime. I think it is in February of 1998 that they have asked them to retain the operation of that store to. The committee is still working with Eaton's to try and make sure that they minimize the loss of stores in the province of Manitoba, including Brandon, the downtown store and the Warehouse Store. It is unfortunate.

However, I can assure the member that the province, the city and all those people who are interested in our province are working aggressively to try and bring forward some options that may well be part of the commercial part of the city, but the decisions will initially be made by Eaton's as it relates to their future and their financial backers. Ms. Barrett: Madam Speaker, I know we are all sorry to hear that decision that has been made by Eaton's, even though the implementation of it will not be until February of next year. Store Closures-Alterna tives Ms.

Becky Barrett (Wellingto n): I am wondering if the minister can share with us some of the areas of suggestions that his committee is working on with the city and with Eaton's to try and keep the closures of Eaton's throughout Manitoba to a minimum, if in fact any of them do need to close. What kinds of things are you looking at doing and working with Eaton's to try and make the losses as minimal as possible? *

(1430) Hon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Madam Speaker, I can tell the member that one of the messages that is going through to Eaton's is the fact that the province of Manitoba and the people who have bought retail products from them have been supporters of that company for many, many years, and the message is that we would hope they would give a lot more consideration to the province of Manitoba and to the business that they have carried out in the province of Manitoba.

As it relates to any specific options, I am not at liberty and do not have any of that information right at my fingertips. I do know there are a lot of people working and working very aggressively to try and maintain the services of Eaton's and/or a similar type activity in the province of Manitoba. Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. ORDERS OF THE DA Y Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister oflndustry, Trade and Tourism (Mr.

Downey), that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair­ [interjection] I understand there are some difficulties being experienced by the opposition in terms of the critic for Environment not being available this afternoon. The honourable opposition House leader and I have had some brief discussions. That was not made known to me a few minutes ago when we discussed it. I think prior to beginning Estimates, we may have to adjourn the House for a few minutes this

213 4 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 30, 1997 afternoon. So I suggest we recess the House for I 0 minutes. Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Just to explain. I think part of the confusion came because I did raise the question as to whether we should be sitting at all. We are in the situation now where there are several ministers, several MLAs who are being called out for flood-related emergencies. Given the fact we had already scheduled Estimates this afternoon, the suggestion was to go into Finance, because I know the Minister of Finance (Mr.

Stefanson) and the Finance critic are here, also Consumer and Corporate Affairs, which we could consider this afternoon. I would also suggest, Madam Speaker-and I know there have been various discussions back and forth between the government House leader-we should I think assess what happens tomorrow. On a daily basis we are seeing a more rapid flood crest than was expected. People are being called out into their constituencies, and I think we all realize, too, that should be the top priority.

I think our intent this week has been to try and operate as much as possible, but we have run into a situation today where there are several ministers out sandbagging, several critics. So what I would suggest we do, if we do that this afternoon, is assess tomorrow morning prior to ten o'clock and leave open the possibility of not sitting tomorrow and assessing that on a daily basis.

I want to indicate that, from the official opposition's standpoint, we are quite prepared to do that, not only not to sit but to reallocate any time that might be lost from the calendar plus set a calendar to another time whether it be Estima tes or bills. So that is my suggestion-Finance and Consumer and Corporate Affairs today, and then let us assess tomorrow morning whether we even in fact sit tomorrow morning. Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, those comments are helpful. Indeed, the honourable Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Doer) and I did discuss the potential of discussing the Estimates related to the Department of Finance. It was not made clear to me that that would happen instead of the Environment department, and I believe, having checked with the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson), that would be acceptable. I am always available and have been and so is the honourable member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) for discussions on how we might carry on the work of the House at a time when members do indeed need to be away.

The key to all of this is indeed working together in co-operation, and that has been evidenced by honourable members in the New Democratic Party and the Liberal Party and by members on this side of the House as well. So what the honourable member is suggesting, Madam Speaker, would call for an adjustment to the order of Estimates filed in the House on March 27 such that the Estimates for the Department of Finance would be moved from the committee and into the House. That would interrupt the proceedings with respect to the Department of Environment and move that down on the list after Finance.

So I think that describes what needs to happen. Is that clear enough for the table? Madam Speaker: Is there leave to have the Department of Finance Estimates moved from the committee outside the Chamber into the Chamber? [agreed] Mr. McCrae: I thank the honourable member for that and apologize for any confusion, but it had been my clear understanding that it would have been something different from what we are talking about now. This is just fine, because we do have a very co-operative Minister of Finance and that is very helpful, and it is especially helpful at this time in Manitoba.

With the accommodations that we are making, it should indeed be possible for us to carry on with the business of the people in this House while honourable members such as yourself, Madam Speaker, can be available to constituents, which is vitally necessary just about now. So I move, seconded by the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Downey), that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the honourable member for Pembina (Mr. Dyck) in the Chair for the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs; and the honourable

April 30, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2135 member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine) in the Chair for the Department of Finance. *

(1440) Madam Speaker: As the Deputy Speaker is unavailable, the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine) will be chairing the Committee of Supply in the Chamber, and the honourable member for Pembina (Mr. Dyck) will be acting as Chair of the Committee of Supply outside the Chamber. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) CONSUMER AND CORPORATE AFFAIRS The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Peter Dyck): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon this

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 255 will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. When the committee last sat it had been considering item 2.(

b) Residential Tenancies on page 25 of the Estimates book. Hon. Mike Radcliffe (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Mr. Chairman, I believe that as we adjourned last night my honourable colleague had asked me a question with regard to disposition of issues, the relationship between a landlord and a tenant in situations of domestic violence.

I believe that my response I had perhaps formulated but not got on the record was that my honourable colleague had posed that if there were two individuals, male and female who had signed a lease, one of the tenants was to go to the landlord and to say, I cajole you, I plead with you not to Jet the other tenant have access to the property because of domestic violence or apprehension thereof, what was the status of the law at the present time? My response to that is that at the present time, barring any restraint order, the landlord is obliged to give equal access to both signatories to the lease.

If there is an individual in the flat who is not a signatory to the lease but rather a resident only, then I believe that the tenant signatory would have the authority to advise the landlord to bar somebody from the premises, but the way to ensure any sort of security in a situation like this would be to get a restraint order. Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): In this kind of a situation involving domestic violence, what the minister is saying is that the victim must get a restraining order, and yet the earlier question, it was going to be up to the victim to then inform the landlord.

That was the other question, that it was up to the woman to inform the landlord, and that would still hold true that then once the restraining order-and that is the only way that there would be any legal recourse to prevent the entry of the abusive partner into the apartment. So there must be a restraining order, and then it is up to the victim to then take that restraining order and show it to the landlord in order to have the person who is, according to the lease agreement, justified to have entry into the suite to not have that happen? Mr.

Radcliffe: I would agree with most of what my honourable colleague has said; however, I would add to her remarks that my knowledge of the zero tolerance application of the law nowadays is that if a partner or a person in a domestic violence situation calls the police, the police are obliged to attend. If, on an initial scrutiny, it is apparent to the police that any violence has occurred or that there is any apprehension of violence that is about to occur they must take the offending person into custody, and that person is then released on conditions. *

(1450) My experience, although brief with this branch of domestic law before I left private practice, was that if there was a domestic situation where two partners were living together, the person would be released from custody on the understanding that the presiding magistrate would order that that person not attend at the residential premises where the alleged victim was found, and so these would be interim orders until such time as the charges were disposed of before the court.

So you can often have up to three or four months before one of these charges can work its way through the whole Provincial Judges Court process. During that interval both individuals would be functioning under an order of the Provincial Judges Court magistrate. The resident tenant alleged victim could then take a copy of

2136 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 30, 1997 those conditions of release, share that with the landlord and that would be, I would think, sufficient justification for a landlord to deny somebody access to an apartment and, in fact, further, call the police to have somebody barred from the premises and to have the balance ofthe Crown offered to protect any supposed victim. Ms.

Cerilli: So if all that occurred in the scenario that the minister has just described, then the landlord would have the responsibility for ensuring that locks are changed and keys are made for the tenant to ensure that the abusive partner does not have access to the suite. That is the first part of the question. The second

part is if all this scenario occurred, as the minister has just described, and a landlord still allowed the abusive partner into the unit, what could be the consequences legally to that landlord? Mr. Radcliffe: I believe I should correct the record because I do not know, and I do not want to leave on the record any remarks that might be imputed to me to say that there is a positive obligation on the part of the landlord to actually change locks. That might well be, and it makes common sense, what my honourable colleague has mentioned, but I do not know that there has been judicial

interpretation on that, and so I would hesitate to say that that is the status of the law. With regard to the second question posed by my honourable colleague, I would say to that that if a landlord knowingly flouted or assisted in enabling an individual to flout an order of the Provincial Judges Court, there is due process which is to haul that landlord into Provincial Judges Court on a contempt motion and have the landlord answerable to the magistrate with regard to the security of the person at question. Ms.

Cerilli: This could be for some very interesting cases if that kind of situation occurred and there were injuries or even death to a tenant after a restraining order or even police reports were made, and the landlord did allow access to the unit, and if then charges could be laid against a landlord in terms of assisting in an assault.

I am not sure of the legal terms that would be used, the types of charges that would be laid, but I think that these are probably scenarios that not everyone has thought through, and I know that the other day, when we were discussing this yesterday, you did say that this would now be included in the training and information that goes forward for landlords and for tenants to make sure that they know of their responsibilities in this area. So I think that this has been a worthwhile exchange. Mr.

Radcliffe: I can add to my honourable colleague's remarks that I have been a solicitor in some of these cases where, in fact, women have been shot, clients of mine in situations like this, so that I have had a working knowledge of it and feel quite intensely about some of this material. Ms. Cerilli: All right, then. That whole issue was actually raised by questions from the member for Osborne (Ms.

McGifford), and I had been, though, discussing issues around rent control, so I want to resume dealing with that issue and going back to some of the arguments that are being put forward by some of the landlord groups and asking for the government's

interpretation or their acknowledgement of some of their claims or if they have done any of their own research on this area. One of them is to do with the assertion, I guess you could say, that the rent control guidelines are contributing to having single-family residents ending up to have to have an increase in their property taxes because of the reduced assessment on the rental properties because of the effects of the rent control guideline, to put it succinctly, I guess.

So I am wondering if that has been part of the discussions in the department and through the ad hoc committee that has been working on these issues and if there is any additional research that has been done to clarify that type of claim. Mr. Radcliffe: This argument was made to me by one of the landlord groups when they appeared in my office in late January. For purposes of the record, I would say that the argument runs thusly: that the capital value of a residential tenancy unit, a multiple unit, is determined by the value of the income that it can generate.

The landlords, this one group of landlords, argue that if you suppress the revenue and suppress it unjustifiably to keep it below what market would demand, then that suppresses the capital value because the revenue, the

April 30, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2137 total income for that block, is depressed, and therefore the capital value is depressed, and therefore-and this is a real domino argument, and I would not castigate my honourable friend, but I might typify this argument as somewhat imaginative and reaching. Nonetheless, the argument then goes that the capital value of the building is depressed, and therefore the municipal authority is taxing on a depressed land base. I am familiar with that argument, and that is how the argument goes as it was explained to me.

I have no additional research on this at this point in time. There was an ad hoc committee assisting the director to consider many of these issues, and I received a report back from the director, I think, oh, about the second week in April, so all this material is quite fresh on my desk. I would advise my honourable colleague that I run a very open office where any pressure group or advocacy group is open to come to me and present their arguments.

However, my policy is that any issues that are raised are then referred back through the deputy into the department for such advice and consideration as the department may consider. I will take no action and form no opinion and do nothing until I receive advice back from that chain of command out of the department. *

(1500) I can advise my honourable colleague that the consensus, I believe, of this ad hoc group-which is not a widely consultative group, I would add as well. It is a select group of a small number of individuals who met long and hard, did come up with a number of different suggestions of issues that I might consider, but there has been no economic information provided to me either by the landlords nor by the ad hoc group nor by the director nor by the deputy to date.

I think, before we were to take any legislative direction or legislative steps on this, that some of those types of steps and research that my honourable colleague is suggesting would be well advised so that we can speak not from suspicion nor from a position of one particular advocate but rather from a balanced position and one offact. For example, I would like to know what the tax base is for residential tenancies in the city of Winnipeg within the redline district, without the redline district. Does that cause a diminution in tax rolls and tax income?

I believe that the argument may be spurious or may even be affected by the fact that I believe the City of Winnipeg has weighted their tax base-and I am no expert on assessment-against single-family residential rather than multiple and commercial, and that there has been a real shift or change in the policy of the City of Winnipeg over the last five or six years.

I can say that because I used to act for some foreign landlords, some foreign landowners, I should say, who owned land in the city of Winnipeg, both houses and businesses, and we saw the shift come from year to year in the taxes we were paying as we were administering their property. I do not know if one can conclude, such as my honourable friend has posed, but it is certainly an argument and it is something that I would like to address. Ms.

Cerilli: In his answer the minister has sort of agreed with part of it, and I guess the question would be if you can equate those two issues together, the fact that the city has transferred a greater tax burden to single family-owned properties, residential properties as opposed to businesses and residential tenancies, but equating that with these other issues is the question that he has raised. Just a quick question related to this, especially given that the minister has said that there is a need for more research and analysis in this area.

I am wondering what the capacity is currently in his department to do that kind of research and analysis or if they rely heavily on CMHC.

I know I get the benefit of a lot of their publications, as I am sure the department does, but I am concerned because I know there are a lot of changes happening over with CMHC and I am concerned if some of their research, the very good work they do in this whole area for the entire country is going to be reduced and if that is going to occur, is that really going to affect this department in terms of the Residential Tenancies branch and the ability for you to have access to information to do the kind of analysis we need to do for policy in this area. On a point o.f clarification for Mr.

Martindale, the member for Burrows, I want to be co-operative on this committee particularly because of the flood and I know that our critic for Consumer and Corporate Affairs may have received an evacuation notice today, so we are trying to give some more certainty to the proceedings of the committee. I am prepared to go until five o'clock,

2138 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 30, 1997 and I am wanting to ask the minister if at that time we could have the head of the branch for Vital Statistics here, so the member for Burrows would ask some questions and then after that we would proceed back with the critic for Consumer and Corporate Affairs. Mr. Radcliffe: Absolutely, I would be delighted to do that. My honourable colleague had asked me what the capacity for research was in the Residential Tenancies branch ofthe Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs, and I would advise that the director does rely on CMHC for their vacancy information.

They apparently have vacancy stats that they supply on a regular basis. I would also advise that Consumer and Corporate Affairs has a Research department, albeit modest, of two research analysts and a support person. The department is headed by Mr. Ian Anderson, and they research a whole plethora of activities for us right across the department.

So, for example, if there was an issue which as we are discussing now of what is the impact on the assessment rates on residential rent control on the capital value of commercial property in the city of Winnipeg, residential tenancy property in the city of Winnipeg, this is quite logically and reasonably an issue which could be referred to the Research branch of the department. In addition, I have seized the initiative. There is an advisory group oflandlords and tenants which had been dormant for some time, and I have just completed some appointments to this group.

It is my intention that this group be started up again and that they would meet. I do not believe they have met for a couple of years, and it has become quite inactive. They do not have research capacity per se, but what they do, I think, bring to the mosaic is public opinion, street sense. They would bring the milieu, the temper of the milieu in which we are functioning. So I think that, before one commits oneselfto any branch of legislation, you have got to do some consultation with the people involved.

I would cite to my honourable colleague that I had the experience in the Child and Family Services environment to travel across the country and found it very rewarding to speak to or hear presentations from an incredible cross-section of individuals in the province of Manitoba on Child and Family Services legislative proposed changes. That proved to me the value of consulting the individuals that you are going to be legislating over before you can take any such steps, and so therefore I would look to this advisory group to bring this sort of wisdom to the table. Ms.

Cerilli: The other part of that question, then, given that the minister has said that they would rely on CMHC for this type of analysis and research, does the minister have concerns or knowledge of changes at CMHC that could affect the availability of information in these kinds of areas, and is that a concern, I mean, if we are going to then have to seek to get that information elsewhere? Mr. Radcliffe: Mr. Chairman, we have no information at this time that CMHC is going to discontinue providing vacancy rates, information for the city of Winnipeg at this time.

So I can respond to my honourable colleague that in fact we do not see that any prospective changes of CMHC of which we are aware right now will impact on our research capacity in this department. *

(1510) Ms. Cerilli: One of the other things that the minister had said yesterday during this discussion was that public housing was filling a gap in the availability of accommodation at the low end for low-income Manitobans, and one of the other claims by some of the landlord groups is that public housing is unfair competition, that they would like to see the government "get out of the housing business." We see that the federal government, in a large way, is doing that, and provincial governments are following suit, even this provincial government.

Since the feds have stopped funding new construction of social housing in '94, there has been no new money from the provincial government of Manitoba either for new social or public housing. I am wondering how the minister and this government respond to the assertions of groups like AIM or other landlord groups that try and suggest that the government has no business in providing housing for low-income Manitobans or seniors or those with disabilities or any of the other Manitobans that benefit from Manitoba Housing properties programs?

April 30, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2139 Mr. Radcliffe: Well, Mr. Chairman, I am sure you are aware, as is my honourable friend, that when you occupy public office, you are subject to a full range of opinion from the entire spectrum of the business world in the department in which you administer, and one must be tolerant and open to listen to everybody's views.

But I can tell this particular member that I would have great difficulty-given the level of information and knowledge that I have at this point in time, the arguments that AIM has presented to date to me in support of abolishing subsidized housing or public housing because it was undue competition for their particular niche market, I do not believe it really has a lot of weight at this point in time. Ms. Cerilli: This gets me into another area that I want to spend some time on, particularly because I do have with me the rent market report for '96 from Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation.

This report provides more than just vacancy rates. It also provides the average costs for apartments in the province and breaks down the city of Winnipeg into different areas and then shows some comparison between capital cities across the country. So it is a really good resource, and one of the things that we are concerned about is the availability of a full range of housing across the province. I know, again, from talking to some of the landlord groups, one of the things that they have said to me is that there is a shortage of two-bedroom units in the province.

I am wondering if the ministry has any information of their own or if they could confirm that or produce some information to show that there is a lower vacancy and there is a need for two-bedroom units in the city or in the province. Mr. Radcliffe: In response to my honourable colleague, the information we have in the department is that we know what the supply of two-bedroom housing units is in the province, but we have no way of assessing what is the demand for that. Of course, obviously, all you can do is assume or conclude if the supply is very low that there is a high demand.

My honourable colleague's remarks now are the first that we have heard of this information that the supply of two-bedroom housing units does not meet the current demand for this type of rental accommodation in the city of Winnipeg or the province of Manitoba, and, in fact, we have no way of measuring the demand. We know what the supply is because we see the vacancy rates, but we do not know what the unqualified or unsatisfied demand is that is out there for that. Ms. Cerilli: I guess one would be able to make some assumption though.

If there is a higher vacancy rate, then you would know that there perhaps is a greater demand in there. But one of the other reasons that some of the landlord groups are raising this is because they believe that there is a problem in terms of-again, this deals with some of the rent control issues, but one of the things that they are concerned about is the cost. The difference between a one-bedroom and a two­ bedroom is reduced.

I guess they are equating this, that people tend to stay in the two-bedroom units, perhaps then the rent control guidelines, or there has not been as much increase in the rents because people stay there longer. What is happening is there is a skewing in terms of the rents in Manitoba.

I am just trying to look through the statistics here from this report and see if this is borne out in this research from CMHC, and I am wondering if that is something that the department has had raised with them through this ad hoc committee, through meetings that you have had, and if this is something that is of concern or being looked at. Mr. Radcliffe: Again, Mr.

Chair, on a general philosophical basis, whenever one enters an economic market with a regulation or a regulatory environment of any sort, be it on the Public Utilities Board level or on the Residential Tenancies board, you are interfering with the free flow of economic forces of supply and demand. So it cannot but skew the market to some extent or another, and I would define skew as to change away from the unchecked forces of supply and demand.

However, I have not been met with the argument that the people are retaining, unjustifiably or unduly, the occupancy of two-bedroom units to the detriment of people searching for that sort of accommodation or to deplete the market of that supply. If somebody were to make that case to me, I am certainly open to doing the appropriate research on it to

2140 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 30, 1997 see what is available, but this is the first time I have heard that. Ms. Cerilli: I guess it can just be added to the list. I am starting to, after listening to the minister, have more questions about this department's role through Research or the branch, the Residential Tenancies branch in trying to do some type of analysis. I am glad to see that you have your committee, your tenant and landlord committee up and working again, because I think that a lot of these issues will come forward.

I mean, there are all sorts of other issues we have not even started dealing with yet in terms of rental properties.

I guess what I am wanting to find out is the attention that is being paid in this department through Research or the Residential Tenancies branch to issues of social policy around residential tenancies, of trying to have-I do not know if there even is any kind of mandate within this department to pay attention to housing for low­ income people, to do research in this area, to look at some of the issues around, like I am wanting to get into yet, the percentage of the market that is available at the low end, or if the government simply views that as the purview of the Department of Housing, through social and public housing, and that there is no social policy role as part of the mandate for Consumer and Corporate Affairs and the Residential Tenancies branch. *

(1520) Mr. Radcliffe: In response to my honourable colleague, I would say that the cabinet in its deliberations from year to year where it sets the recommended level of increase, not an automatic increase, I might add, but the allowable ceiling to which rents can rise, taking into account the rising costs and the rise and the devaluation of our currency and all those sort of imponderables, does consider the overall impact of the availability of decent, clean, safe accommodation for our citiz ens at all ends of the economic spectrum. So from a broad philosophical base, I would say that is the consideration.

Then, more particularly, my sense, and albeit I am very new in the chair as the minister responsible for residential housing, but I can add that the sense I get from listening to the reports coming up from the department is that great focus is placed on mediation, resolution of disputes by conciliation, that there is a very collegial and open environment in the Residential Tenancies which tries to be open to the disenfranchised, those individ uals who do come forward, and albeit we only see the ones who do come forward, and I am aware of the argument that for every one that comes forward, there are probably many, many others who suffer in silence.

Nonetheless, I would say that the environment created by the director with his employees, with the processes that he invokes and with the constant checking, the constant education of the employees and the quality of the employees in the branch, are such that they are aimed at making this a responsive environment for both sides, not only for the landlords but for the tenants as well.

Of course, as my honourable colleague would argue, the landlords have an economic advantage that the tenants do not have, and they have the advantage of organization and probably access to research and development that individual tenants do not have because they do not appear in this province to be an organized group of individuals. However, I would not say that the department has a particular bent or a particular overriding philosophy in favour of one group or the other.

They try scrupulously to maintain a balance so that housing of all types are available to the citizens of Manitoba, and in fact, being mindful of the issue, that it has got to be a source of investment which is appealing to individuals so that people will invest their capital to produce private housing of a quality and nature that people want to live in. This is over and above the public housing which my honourable colleague has referred to. So I have not given you much specifics. I have given you sort of a generality of what the direction and focus of the department is.

From my observation to date, is there any special mandate.

I know of no special mandate at this point in time, but I can tell you that we are in a self-analytical evaluative process right now right across the department, in fact right across government, whereby we are looking at benchmarking, we are looking at measurements of objectives, we are looking at accountability from our departments and asking our employees to bring back to us their concept of measurement, so that we have government that is responsive so that we can then give some direction to the front-line workers rather than having it as a mindless reactive entity.

April 30, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2141 Mr. Chair. I was wondering if I could prevail upon the kindness of the committee to have about a two­ minute adjournment. I just want to step outside the committee room for one minute. An Honourable Member: Recess. Mr. Radcliffe: Yes, if I could have a recess for two minutes. [interjection] Wonderful, thank you. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): Is there leave from the committee? [agreed] The comm ittee recessed at 3:25 p.m. After Recess The comm ittee resumed at 3:27p .m . Ms.

Cerilli: I guess what the minister has said is in some ways then rent control is a social policy or social justice policy, and, other than that, there is not really a mandate to do research or try and develop other similar policies. But they do, through The Residential Tenancies Act, they have tried to develop a fair act, and their job is to uphold that act in a fair way. I accept that, and I know that there are some things built into that act to try and address the imbalance of power between tenants and landlords.

One that comes to mind is the fact that landlords are not to bring lawyers to Residential Tenancies Commission hearings. I know I have, though, had complaints given to me by tenants who feel that that has not been followed all the time, but that is another issue. I am stilling wanting, though, to press the minister a little bit more on this to see if I am understanding this correctly, if I am understanding his answer correctly, and if there are any other initiatives in his branch to deal with socioeconomic inequities in the whole area of residential tenancies.

You know, I was talking the other day about how low income people still really do get gouged in terms of renting housing, and the minister had also said that part of the responsibilities of his department is to create the climate for investment, ensure that is one of the purposes or one of the priorities of the department. I am wondering how the whole issue of the fairness and the social and economic justice for tenants fits into that in terms of other social policy and research and development in this whole area of housing Manitobans. Mr.

Radcliffe: I would add to my previous answer, I guess, to my honourable colleague, in

part in answer to this question that she has posed, that the

preamble to the act,

Chapter R 119 of Continuing Statutes of Manitoba, which was passed in September of '93, has a

preamble, about four whereases which set out the philosophical base for the functioning of The Residential Tenancies Act. In part, it says that the mandate is to preserve the ongoing harmonious relationships between landlords and tenants, require innovative dispute resolution which is informal, accessible, expeditious, amicable; that to resolve these disputes in an informal administrative setting and that skill be brought to the table by the individuals who are settling these disputes. *

(1530) That is perhaps the philosophy that has already gone into this whole area of governmental administration. Then in addition to that, I would add that

Section 125(3) ofthe act itself sets out some criteria, that before making an order under this section, the director shall consider the rents charged for rental units, the increase in actual expenses, change in service and facilities privileges, any grounds for objections from a tenant, findings by the director that the landlord is in contravention of an obligation to repair; that the residential complex has been sold, et cetera, et cetera.

So there are minutiae list of criteria there that go into the making of the order which, I guess, is the culmination of research, thought, policy planning of previous governments in previous years. Over and above that, the Residential Tenancies tries scrupulously so far as is humanly possible to maintain an impartial face to the community, so that they cannot be perceived as an advocate or as being prejudiced either for one group or the other in order to maintain a face of credibility. That is, in part, answer to my honourable colleague's question.

2142 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 30, 1997 The other part of her question was, are there any other facilities for research with regard to social planning within this department, and I would say no, not at this time. With the volume of work, with the area of responsibility that, in fact, the resources of this department are currently taxed, not beyond their capacity, but as you can see from the annual report there is a carry-over of issues from year to year, so that they are working to full potential at this point in time and do not have a capacity for research or think tank on social issues.

Now, having said that, of course, I think it is probably incumbent upon the minister from time to time, being responsive to the winds of opinion and needs of the community, to bring issues to the attention of the director and to have those directed either on a policy level, a regulatory level or, indeed, on a legislative level.

As my honourable colleague knows, if any minister of a department gets out of touch with the community whom he or she may represent, then there is a right­ sizing or a change that would be made in the fullness of time by the electorate, if any government is not truly representing the social policy that the community itself demands. So that is perhaps a global solution and goes into the thinking. I say that quite sincerely, that I think many of my colleagues and cabinet, when they sit down once a year to set the allowable rates, that they are mindful of those sort of issues of social planning.

Do we have a group within the department that looks upon domestic violence or on poverty issues? No. No, there is nothing within the department on the specifics that my honourable colleague is referring to. Ms. Cerilli: Well, toward the end there, the mini ster started getting into the kinds of questions or concerns or even suggestions that I might have, and that is looking at the big picture beyond just trying to have a fair process for a fair Residential Tenancies Act and then a fair process for enforcing and following that act. I understand that that is what the department is trying to do.

Beyond that, I know that-I do not know how recent the statistic is-but that low-income Manitobans and Canadians, the lowest quintile pay now more than 30 percent of their income for rent, and that has gone up since the late 1980s. The percentage of their income has gone up. On the other hand, the highest quintile of the population in terms of income, they pay only, I think it is 9.5 percent of their income into housing, that their percentage has gone down since the '80s and that this is a trend which shows that the gap between the lower-income citizens and higher-income citiz ens is growing.

I know that your government now is-through the throne speech, they have made claims that they want to address poverty. We have been raising a lot of these issues for a long time. Housing policy is one of the best areas to do that in terms of any department, whether it is social allowance, residential tenancies, housing, wherever. One of the other things that is always a concern is the millions of dollars that are expended through social allowance each year that go directly to landlords.

When the social allowance changes were made with the reductions this year, all those reductions were taken out of food and other allowances. None of them came out of rent. Now, in some ways that has guaran teed landlords that they will not lose any of their revenue from social allowance tenants, but what it means is there are a lot of low-income tenants on social allowance who have to take from their food budget and supplement their rent, and that that problem is getting worse as well. I have heard the figure of $90 miilion in Manitoba goes from social allowance to landlords every year.

That figure includes a lot of housing that is substandard, that as the minister has acknowledged, all these tenants are out there fending for themselves, and this is a complaint-driven process. I was surprised to learn when I became the critic for Housing that even the rent supplement programs in the Department of Housing, which benefit landlords, the SAFER and the SAFFR programs, there is no inspection tied to those programs. Again, provincial revenue or tax dollars are going to landlords without ensuring that prior to that the properties are meeting standard. So this is the kind of area that I am talking about.

April 30, 1997 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2143 * (1540 ) When I am talking about having a mandate to look at social policy, socioeconomic justice through all departments of government, and what all departments can do to try to close the gap between low-income people and higher-income people, realizing that housing is one of the areas where wealth is transferred from low-income people to higher-income people, that in paying rents-and I raised this the other day-if you have a house in the inner city that is divided into four apartments. and each of those tenants, for example, are paying I think it is about $286 now that can go toward rent-! am not sure that is the exact figure, I cannot remember off the top of my head-what ends up happening is the amount of social allowance that is allowed for rent is what ends up being charged in the market or by the private landlords.

Then what ends up happening is a given landlord who has separated their house into four apartments collects that amount from all those tenants and ends up often more than paying for their mortgage, more than twice what they are paying in their mortgage. They make quite a hefty profit on housing low-income Manitobans or those on social allowance. These are the kinds of issues that I am encouraging the minister to take a look at and asking if there is the capacity in his department, or if this can be raised with the social policy group of cabinet. I do not think the minister is part of that group. I know he is not.

These are the kinds of issues related to residential tenancies and housing that really need to be addressed, because as I have said, the trends are meaning that things are getting worse. That is the other thing I was going to ask the minister. From listening to his answers so far, I do not think he is going to be able to tell me if they have done any research on it in this area, or if there is any information to confirm that those trends are getting worse.

The rents being paid by lower-income Manitobans is getting higher and more costly, while it is not going up to the same degree for those that are more advantaged and affluent. Mr. Radcliffe: I would agree with my honourable colleague that I cannot tell you at this time, and I have no research which I have available, which I have at my fingertips. I am aware that there are policy people who research even beyond the limits of the department in government, but I do not know if they even have addressed this issue. The only response I can make at this point is to say, no, I have nothing at this point in time.

I think these are some very meaningful and very important issues and perhaps touches well on some of the other departments, that of my colleague Mrs. Mitchelson and perhaps even Mr. Praznik in Health, because I am mindful that poor housing begets the sort of mindless cycle of poor education results, poor health, lack of social motivation, justice, et cetera, which I am sure my honourable colleague is aware, so there may be some research in some of these other departments that I am not aware of. Ms.

Cerilli: To continue on the same vein, I would like to ask the minister then if he is confirming he will be having discussions with the Minist er of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson) and Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik). I could also suggest Education, because one of the other things that occurs, particularly in the inner city of Winnipeg with the problems with affordable housing for many families, is many schools in the inner city have their entire enrollment tum over in one year because the famili es move so frequently, and there is that disruption on the education of students.

I know that there are a number of agencies in the city of Winnipeg that do research on this. CEDA, Community Education Development Associations, are very active on these kinds of issues. They have staff who are looking at alternatives, as we speak, to develop affordable, stable, safe, up-to-standard housing for low­ income citizens, and as the minister said, there are issues related to health and all sorts of different areas. So I am wanting to just emphasize that and see if he is making then the commitment to have discussions dealing with some of these issues with his cabinet colleagues. Mr.

Radcliffe: I am certainly quite prepared to do that, to have that conversation with my honourable colleagues. I would add, Mr. Chair, as a model perhaps, I am sure my honourable colleague is aware of this, but I have had occasion through my contact with Child and Family Services to come in contact with an individual woman by the name of Josie Hill. Josie Hill was an aboriginal

2144 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA April 30, 1997 woman who was instrumental in starting up the Andrews Street sta tion. [interjection] My honourable colleague says she is aware. I have had the opportunit y to attend at the Andrews Street sta tion to meet a number of the residents who use that facility. In fact, I went there one morning and cooked breakf ast for them. I bought breakfast, cooked it and served it. It blew them away that a little boy from the south end would come up to Andrews Street and do this for them, and we had a wonde rful morning on that.

I think the telling point there was that Andrews Street sta tion, as I see it, was started with a modicum of seed money from the provincial government, but basically the empowerment, the motivation and the drive for that community activity came out of the community itself, rather than somebody coming from the outside and saying I am going to do good to you whether you like it or not.

In fact, I think the approach that was used there was, what do you want; what is meaningful to you; what are your real needs and, in fact, that the Andrews Street station started because a number of women in the district said look, we need a safe, clean, secure place where we can go and do our laundry, because many of the homes in that area did not have at -home laundry facilities. The local wishy-washer laundromat was across from a needle park. Their children were subjected to abuse and violence.

These women desperate ly wanted a place where they could go and, as I say, do their domestic chores in some sort of sense of security. Then the whole project expanded and layered from that, but the important

part is that the individuals who use the program drive it. My observation of it was that they have a real sense of ownership, they have a real sense of pride of accomplishment, so they are not subject to the atti tude of somebody from a paternalistic height giving them a handout, which is even more demeaning in itself. Rath er they have helped themselves. I would also recommend to my honourable colleague the issue of the Lions home on Portage A venue where a number of the individuals who reside there pay according to their means. I have some family friends that reside in that tower.

Again, there, there is the sense of pride of ownership which I think is essenti al. I think that that is an issue that my honourable colleague Mrs. Mitchelson is actively trying to promote; first of all, a truly consultative process to determine real need and then a neighbourhood empowerment, rather than something that is administra tively or bureaucratically ridden, something that comes out of the community itself. Ms. Cerilli: I think at the beginning there, the minister said that he would agree to discuss these issues with his cabinet colleagues. Mr. Radcliffe: Absolutely. Ms.

Cerilli: I also appreciate his enthusiasm for the Andrews Street Family Centre. I, too, have made and served breakfast there. I think that they make it a policy in trying to educate government and other agencies to invite people to visit there and make their staff breakfast. So I think they have done, and Josie Hill especially has done a great job of educating people about the realities of the residents in that community.

The other thing I do not know if the minister is aware of, that that agency is connected to William Whyte School, the Hope Centre and the north end housing project, and the study they did which was initia ted because of the number of substandard rental properties, boarded up buildings, sniff houses, crack houses in the area. They did a door-to-door survey which then, in tum, has led to a lot of the needs assessing that has gone into this centre that you are talking about. *( 15 50) So projects like that need revenue, they need support, and I agree that a lot of good things have come out of this centre.

I know one of the other things that that neighbourhood is looking at doing is creating a co-op to help with renovation and retrofitting of buildings, of housing. One of the groups that is looking at how to finance housing for low-income people is working out of that neighbourhood as we ll. My concern is that the population that we hear, in some ways, so little of. but in some ways a lot about in

April 30, 1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 2145 sort of a sta tistical way, is Manitobans who are really struggling. I am concerned that while we are in a phase of reducing government support through reductions in social housing- there have been reductions in social allowance, there have been cuts in all sorts of health care and education programs-that the housing standards drop as people have to take money that would have gone there and transfer it to purchase other services. Also, this is all occurring in a climate where the affordability of housing is just becoming more of a problem as well.

I think this whole issue needs some attention and I do not know if this minister, in co­ operation with the Minister for Housing- I did finish my Estima tes already with that ministry and they are preoccupied with the devolution of social housing from the federal government. I am concerned that there is no vision in terms of how-if the public sector is backing out-we are going to ensure that we are not getting into more problems for middle- and low-income Manitobans in terms of housing. Mr.

Radcliffe: I just want to put on the record and I am sure my honourable colleague has heard the rhetoric from my side ofthe House many, many times, but I just wanted to make the point that in health care there have been no global overall cuts and that, in fact, we are spending $1.87 billion in Manitoba on supporting our health care in Manitoba. We have heard the Honourable Mrs.

Mcintosh, who does not waste an opportunity to tell us that we are spending $115 million more over '88, albeit with the import of the school boards and the inflation and the growth of collective agreements, that less and less of these dollars are trickling down to program and more and more of these dollars are being consumed by wages in these areas. So, therefore, we are being cast as cutting back on education,

whereas overall year over year, there has been an increase and, in fact, I would point out to my honourable colleague, that last year just in the area of home care alone we budgeted for, I think it was $80 million to go into the home care budget and we exceed that by $60 million, and government spent that in support of home care. I would react and say that cuts to health care-there are changes going on in health care, there are technological advances.

I can advise my honourable colleague that, in fact, a member of my family had some surgery about two weeks ago, and she was in the hospital for two days on a procedure that a decade ago she would have been there probably for eight to 10 days. So there are radical changes that are ongoing with health care. I think we in many, many cases are better off for it, although, you know, we can always anecdotally point to particular cases where individuals have been released too quickly, they have gone home, and there has not been a support system for them.

I would also note, and I believe I was corrected by members opposite at one point in the Chamber, but I think that Manitobans can take pride in the fact that the category of children 12 to 18, if you remove the housing component from the social allowance award, they receive the highest level of support, that category of children on social allowance, of anywhere in the country. When I heard that figure I was ast ounded. I had the opportunity while sitting in Treasury one day to see those figures going by.

In fact, I do not think that this government gets enough recognition of that fact, that comparing it across the country, this is the best level of support for our marginalized and our poor in that category of people. The Manitoba government tries to at least maintain a middle of the road level of support for our less enhanced individuals.

But I just wanted to point out to my honourable colleague and for the purposes of the record in this discussion today that, in fact, this government is a pragmatic government and is doing its best with the resources that we have available to us without raising significant taxes, although costs are going up, to supply a sustained level of support. Now, my honourable colleague raises the issue of there are Manitobans out there whom we do not hear from who may well be the truly bereft. My reflection on that would be that there are probably what I would typifY as the working poor.

The truly socially sustained people on public assistance have access to a myriad, a plethora of programs that they can use for self­ advancement and devel opment, but probably the working poor are a category of people who get caught. I do not know that there is enough at tention paid to that category of people. These are people who are

214 6 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA April 30, 19 97 paying their bills, getting by, but they get caught. They are the first ones to suffer with the ravages of inflation. So I think, from a social policy perspective, that some attention ought to be given to that category of our population as well as the individuals who fall on the public assist ance rolls. Ms. Cerilli: I guess the purpose of these Estimates to some extent is to debate. The minister has opened this wide up in terms of other departm ents.

I am going to encourage him to take a look first of all at his reference to education and teachers' salaries, at the Administration line in the Department of Education. What he will find is it has gone up. So while the Minister of Education (Mrs. Mcintosh) has been harping at school divisions to reduce their education administra tion costs, her own department administration has increased. The other thing is, ask people who are going to get their eyes tested about costs in health care. Ask people who need drugs and the reductions under this government of Pharmacare.

The cuts, the real cuts in social allowance, as the minister has said, are affecting the people who are collecting social allowance.

I was amazed that the government rejected recommendations from its own Children and Youth Secretariat on the SAFER and SAFFR programs in the Department of Housing, where it was recommended that they promote those programs which I have already said are a guaranteed supplement for landlords to get the rent from lower-income people and rather than using that program to the utmost that it has budgeted in the Department of Housing, by promoting the program to low-income Manitobans, because the uptake on the program in the last couple of years has left approximately $300,000 in the budget, this government chose to eliminate $250,000 from that program budget line in the budget this year, even though they have recommendations in a government report suggesting that they promote it and use up the slack rather than cutting it out of the budget.

One of the other things that I will follow up is the claim that the minister has made in terms of if you take out the housing costs and this government being the most affluent in the country, but I would encourage him to look at the percentage of income spent by the people that he is talking about, the working poor, those who are earning $5.40 an hour to even like $8 or $10 if you have a family-you would probably still fit into that income level-and look at the percentage of their income that is going to housing.

I think that you will find that you will understand why there are 34,000 Winnipeggers using the food bank. * (1 600) I guess I am encouraging, and I have used quite a bit of time here in Estimates today, but I think it is worth it because I can see that the minister is taking notes, and I believe that he is going to follow these up. So I feel like the time here is well spent, but what we are finding is that, as I have said, rent issues and housing issues are a large part of the expense for these families and that the policy in this area is desp erately needed.

I am concerned that the situation is going to get worse as governments back out more and more of social housing, not only the buildings in public housing but even programs for rent supplements like SAFER and SAFFR and all those other ones. This government no longer has any program other than the Emergency Home Repair-[inter jection] the Home Renovation Program is gone. It is just the emergency loan program which is very small that still remains, so there is nothing anymore for people to improve the standard and quality of their housing. Some of those programs did not apply to residential tena ncies properties.

They were for homeowners. The point that I am making is this whole area deserves some at tention in terms of government policy. If you are really serious about dealing with poverty, you have to look at rental issues for these families. Mr. Radcliffe: I concur with many of the remarks that my honourable colleague has made with regard to these issues.

It is scripturally based that I remember a great leader and personal philosopher once said that the poor will always be with us, and that was in response to somebody wanting to wash his feet with oil, but one of the philosophical issues I guess, which I have often reflected upon and I had occasion to encounter this personally, is the universality of programs. I had occasion at one point-1 have a 20-year-old son and he had a lump on his head, so I had occasion to take him down to a surgeon. I was told by that surgeon after he

April 30, 19 97 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 214 7 had looked <!t him very quickly that I could pay $60 for a tray fee and come back at four o'clock on Thursday, which was the next day, and in five minutes the problem would be looked after, or I could line up and in six months the child would be looked after. So as far as I was concerned, there was no doubt what I chose. I chose the $60 route, and the child was looked after the next day.

Now I realized that my honourable colleague would be bristling with this, but I wonder why provision is not made for people who have the means to get service supplied to them immediately, where physicians and facilities are underutiliz ed-and I have done some survey of health care institutions across the city. I have had occasion to go into the St. Boniface surgeries, the Pan Am centre surgeries, and see facilities brand new, up-to-date operating rooms that are not being used. We say we are not using them because we do not have the money, and yet I know there are waiting lists for individuals who want service.

I know that there are professionals who are dying to supply the service and, yet, because of the philosophical bent of universality and a rigid, doctrinaire application of that philosophy, we are unable to put together the two components of the society, those people with the need and the means and those people who are willing and able to supply the service. I cannot but help reflect that that is also an inequity in our community today and should deserve some address.

Now that is, perhaps, a major leap from residential housing and rent control, but it touches on some of the resolution of poverty issues and social philosophy that we have been discussing today. Ms. Cerilli: It sure does and it sure is. It sure is a straying away from the issue of residential tena ncies, but it does relate to what we were just talking about in terms of social policy.

The question of universality is always brought up by the right who want means tests and then to institutionalize a two- tier system rather than having it be developed by starv ing the existing system is what we have seen happening across the country. Both situations, I think, are abhorrent and not what we want to see, but I will tell him and I believe that he is listening that the problem is-and what we are trying to do is redistribute services and we want to create more equity and condition.

We want to ensure that the services provided to all those people you are talking about are going to be the same quality and level of services. So you do not want to have a situation where someone who can afford the $100 to go the next day, is going to get better care, parti cularly in health care. The other point then is, what we really have to see is a change in the tax system so that people do pay, but they pay through their ta xes. Then it does not even just rest on the individual. It rests on society and those that generate wealth for the large

part in our society, industry and business and commerce. We could get into a long discussion about the inequities of our tax system and how we are not doing a very good job of ensuring that they invest into the community through paying, what I would say are, fair share in terms of taxes to ensure that the employees that work in their factories and offices do, indeed, have adequate health care and education.

So that is the big picture and I do not know if the minister is now going to defend the banks that some of his colleagues had and claim that the banks indeed are paying their fair share, but I know that from surveys I have done with my constit uents- recently I asked them about service charges and banks and regulating and having more accountability in that area and there is, I think, a lot of revenue that could go into our health care system, education system, systems to increase the quality and standard of housing in this country, if we would look to where the money is.

I agree to not continue to look to citiz ens as individuals to increase taxes, but to increase taxat ion in other ways. We could get into a long discussion about that. I mean, there are a lot of other ways we could generate tax revenue from industry, but I wanted just to put that on the record as why-1 know the party that I belong to has fought long and hard for universality, particularly in the area of health care. We could talk about fee for service and how part of the vision is to deal with that issue.

The other thing I wanted to raise with the minister in terms of the question I put to him about looking into the whole area of the percentage of income, from working poor families, that is going toward housing. The other part of that would be to look at the percentage of the

214 8 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 30 , 19 97 housing market in residential tena ncies that is available to those families, both that are on social allowance and then those that are not, but are st ill strug gling and are working at minimum wage. I do not know if the minister has ever sat down with any of his constituents and gone through their monthly budget, but when I do that with some of my constituents , whether they are seniors, whether they are single parents, I cannot believe it.

I cannot believe the way that they have to be often more frugal in terms of their budgeting than any Minister of Finance or any government official to try and ensure that they are able to buy glasses when they need them, to be able to ensure that they can get a bus pass, to be able to ensure that their kids are going to be able to go on a school trip. All those kinds of thi ngs that could come up and yet, when they are going to have to pay the ongoing expenses of hydro and rent and food. So, I think that if the minister is saying that he is wiiling to look at some of these areas, if he wo