VOL. 3 .. PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 2:00p.m. - 6:00 p.m. THURSDAY, JUNE 15, 1978 NO, 9.1

.• June 15, 1978 Tape 4423 EC - 1 The House met at 2:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I would like to welcome to the House of Assembly on behalf of han. members 117 Grade VI students from Grand Falls Academy, accompanied by a number of their teachers including Doris Young, Valerie Marsh, Emily Stoodley, Leslie Percy and Jacqueline Thompson. I know han. members join me in welcoming these students and their teachers to the House of Assembly. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. GOUDIE: MR. SPEAKER: MR. GOUDIE: present a petition - HR. HODDER: HR. SPEAKER: Hear, hear! PRESENTING PETITIONS Hr. Speaker.

The han. the member for Naskaupi. Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to Mr. Speaker, a point of order. I have called Presenting Petitions if the han. gentleman is standing on a point of order. HR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I was recognized yesterday on a petition from the member for LaPoile(Mr.Neary), a petition which he was presenting when the member for St. John's East d~cided to bring in his motion. NR. F. ROWE: Go to Orders of the Day. NR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The han .. gentleman submits that he wishes to speak on the petition which was before the House yesterday before the House passed to Orders of the Day, so this is a new point. When one calls the routine orders ,:.rhich are the first six items on the Order Paper, this brings up the question of whether there was interruption

• - . June 15, 1978 Tape 4423 EC - 2 MR. SPEAKER: on one of those routine orders the previous day, it is reverted to, or wheth~r yesterday, having passed to Orders of the Day, the House starts off on a clean slate, so to speak, with new routine orders being called and under Petitions, then only petitions presented today. If an hon. member or two on each side or any side Vish to present brief argument I will hear it, If not, I will use my inclination or judgement, because I am sure there is no direct authority. Opposition. MR. W. ROWE: The hon. the teader of the Mr.

Speaker, I would have thought the House Leader on the ~overnment side would have risen. He obviously wants to collect his thoughts, having no arguments to present on the matter. My argument, Sir, is that a petition was presented yesterday. Presenting of petitions, by the way, Sir, as Your Honour well knows, is not in the nature of a debate or something which is closed off as in some other normal procedures of the House. It is a matter of the petition being presented and then a number of people speaking in support of the petition - MR. NEARY: of the Day preference. stop later on. MR. W.

ROWE: All it does is it gives Orders That is all it does, it does not Right. What happens with regard to petitions, of course, is that a petition is presented by an hon. member, supported by a number of members in the Hotise, and Your Honour, I believe, has follo~ed the traditions and precedents .of this Hotise in that until the number of people who wish to speak is exhausted, then people can rise in their place and speak for five minutes in support

-- June 15, 1978 Tape 4423 EC - 3 MR. W. ROWE: of the petition. Yesterday there were a number of people who did want to speak. My bon. friend made mention of that when he rose. He was not able to speak in support of this important petition because a motion was made to revert to Orders of the Day. Now, Sir, that petition was tabled and there were a number of members who did not have an opportunity to speak to it, a very important petition.

As Your Honour knows, it is not a matter of a motion being passed or a debate on a particular resolution or anything, just a matter of people wishing to speak in support of a petition for up to five minutes, and my hon. friend would like to do so. He did not get the opportunity to do so yesterday, and I would like to do so, as well as some other members, especially on this side of the House, Sir. They were not permitted to do so because of the motion that was made and wou1d now like to do so today.

I do not thirtk, as Your Honour said, there is any precedent ,for this particular point because, Sir, the use of that tyrannical and dictatorial :otion which was passed yesterday is one which is luckily not resorted to or has not been resorted to, so there is no precedent to go by.

But, Sir, I would say that if- in the matter of a petition concerning which there is no deadline on the number of people who can speak or the time that can elapse on the speaking of petitions, if this motion which was resorted to yesterday can be used to cut off any support of a petition every time a petition is brought to the House, Sir, and if Your Honour does not allow the matter to be reverted to the next day and the petition to be supported, Sir, i~ would be a very unhealthy

June 15, 1978 Tape .4423 EC - 4 HR. W. ROWE: precedent to set in this House and w6uld have the effect of a government majority, Sir, having the power never to allow any petition presented by a minority,for example, ever to be supported in this House. It could have that kind of an effect, and I would say, Sir, that Your Honour should try to use Your Honour's office to uphold the rights of minorities in this House

June 15, 1978, Tape 442~, Page 1 -- apb MR. W.N.OCWE: and outside the House to have to have petitions presented and supported in this House and not· allow a government majority to cut off all support of petitions merely by rising and moving that the Orders of the Day be reverted to and 1 therefore, all talk on petitions be cut off. On that ground alone, Sir, I think that it is necessary that we be permitted to rise and support a petition. Remember, Sir, that we do not have unlimited right to do so.

After my hon, friend has spoken for five minutes and I have spoken for five minutes and all members who wish to speak for five minutes have done so, that is the end of the matter. I It is not something that can be dragged out ad infinitum, forever. It is not a matter that can be used to obstruct the ordinary business of the House forever, Mr. Speaker, it is simply a right of hon. members, particularly minorities in this House and outside 1 to have their due right to have problems discussed in this House and supported in this House for a brief period of time by hon. members who wish to do so. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Government House Leader. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, if I may have a word on this point of order. Fir~tly, the act is the act of presenting the petition. The petition was presented and delivered to the Table of the House by the hon. the member for· LaPoile (Mr. Neary) , and that take's care of the presentation of the petition. There is, under our rules then, the right of any hon. member who wishes to get up and have a few brief, non-debating comments in support of the petition to do so. But that does not affect the validity of the presentation of the petition.

We have had many petitions in this House over the years where the only person ~peaking was the han. member who presented the petition, no support from either side in the sense of support of •

.. . ~ June 15, 1978, Tape 4424, Page 2 -- apb MR. HICKMAN: anyone entering into discussion concerning the petition. That does not affect the validity of the presentation of the petition. The petition is presented by the presenter and, Mr. Speaker, I can think of once this session,at least, I believe on one day, one of the short days we ran out of time, we did not get to Orders of the Day at all.

Now, if that rule, as suggested by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, was carried to its logical conclusion, that if for instance, say, on a Private Member's day, which is a short day, we had a lot of petitions and a lot of members got up to support a petition, and if a petition was presented and tabled in this House, say, at five minutes to six, and some other hon. gentlemen who was then speaking in support thereof, to take that to its logical conclusion, then the following day ~hen you would come to Orders of the Day,Mr.

Speaker would have to say, 'Now, before we go any further there was a petition tabled yesterday, Does any hon. member want to speak to that petition because the orders, the time, the clock prevented hon. members who wanted to speak from saying something! This rule 21, which is a rule of this House,did that yesterday, but that certainly does not, in my opinion, allow for the extension of the rule beyond the presenting of the petition. I do not know what the situation would be if an hon. member was in the proce.ss of presenting the petition and got cut off before he or she had an opportunity to do so.

Then the petition, you might be able to argue,was not presented. But this petition was indeed presented and the non-debating speeches that are made thereafter does not affect in any way·· the validity of the petition under the rules . MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: I will hear the hon. gentleman.

• June 15, 1978, Tape 4424, Page 3 -- apb MR. NEARY: I should like to draw Your Honour's attention to Standing Order 22, which states: "A motion for reading the Orders of the Day shall have preference to any motion before the House." Now, I think, Mr. Speaker, it is a matter of

interpretation. The hen. Government House Leader just put up a very illogical and weak defence, Sir, for what happened yesterday. Mr. Speaker, if a precedent is created in this House which could be a very dangerous precedent, I believe Your Honour, as Your Honour indicated, has to use his owh inclination on this matter. There is a piece of unfinished business before the House and the unfinished business, ·sir, was that members who wished to rise in their places, and I believe my hen. friend had been recognized yesterday, if Your Honour will remember, the member for Port au Port (Mr.

Hodder) had been recognized and is only now, Sir, exercising his right as a member of this House, asking Your Honour to recognize him again to continue his support ·for the petition and any other members who wish to support it. Because, Sir, all the member did yesterday was say that he would like to have Orders of the Day called in preference to discuss'ing this petition. Well, that is fine, Sir. We .have no objection to that except we feel that it is closure, it is dictatorial, but that is our

June 15, 19.78 Tape 4425 DE - 1 HR. S. NEARY: opinion. Your Honour does not decide that.We will do all the politicking with regard to that in preference to the petition. S.o that is fine, the member got his >•ay, the government showed 1vhat bullies they are in the House. Hith brute force they outvoted us. llow all we are asking, Sir, that we .. ·.· .··· get back to the piece of unfinished business that Has before ;.-··· the House yesterday.

The member has had his o~m way, the government ·.- ;.· have had their own way, and they gave preference to. the Nordsee debate. lvell, that is fine, Sir, t~1ere is nothing we can rlo about that. They have the majority and they had' their preference. So now we want to come back to the petition again. So, t believe, Your Honour, in all fairness that my colleague should be allowed to get up and support this peition that I supported yesterday. S011E HON • 1-:El-IBEP.S : Hear, hear! NR. SPFAKEP.: TI1ere being no further argument, I will adjourn for no longer than five minutes.

June 15, 1978 Tape 4426 PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! r am prepared now to give my decision on the matter which came up a few minutes ago. I have listened to the argument presented by hon. gentlemen on both sides. I am certainly aware of the submission by hon. gentlemen to my right of the requirement, tradition, convention, precedents, equitable parliamentary practicel however one defines it,of the duty of the Chair in the protection of rights of minorities. would point out, of course, the Chair has to do that within the rules, and in its use of judgment and discretion and

interpretation where there is an area for the exercise of such. But it must be done, as everything the Chair must do has to be done,within the rules. Just to revert to what specifically happened yesterday and where the House was before Standing Order 21 became operative,a petition had been presented by the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary), had been spoken to be a number of han. gentlemen. At a certain point at least two hon. gentlemen rose, the hon. the gentleman for St. John's East (Mr. Marshali) and the hon. the gentleman for Port au Port (Mr.

Hodder),- there may have been others I do not recall- and as is customary when members on both sides wish to speak on a matter the Chair will alternate within reason, At that time I said;'I will recognize the hon. member for St. John's East, and following him I will recognize the hon. member for Port au Port." This is done not infrequently, and done fairly frequently in Question Period. would point out, of course, only one person can be recognized at a time. And what in fact the Chair was saying was that it would recognize the other han. gentleman when the first han. oentleman had finished.

I do not think that is an operative factor> however, because what then happened yesterday was that when the House carried by a majority the motion to proceed to the reading of the Orders of the Day, everything in the routine orders was passed over, and the House went immediately to the Orders of the Day. Now today we start off· with a new Order Paper and a new series of routine

June 15, 1978 Tape 4426 PK - 2 Mr: Speaker: orders, not a continuation of yesterday's routine orders. For example, the Oral Question Period today will be thirty minutes. It will not be sixty because there was none called yesterday. The petition which was presented yesterday is no longer on the Table of the House; it is either at the department to which it was referred or in the process of getting there. So, in my opinion, this being a new day we start off on routine orders, ab initio, from the beginning. There is no method of adjourning debate on a petition. There is no debate and there is no mechanism

• ... June 15,1973 Tape No. 4427 AH-1 l:!!.:_?~: for adjournment. Therefore,as far as the rules and their 1in my opinion~ logical application suggest we do today is start off with new routine orders and when, as has happened, routine Order No. 2 is called it for the presenting of petitions today and not the continuation of comment on yesterday's petitions. I would have to conclude by saying only with leave of the House may any hon. member spaak on a petition which was presented yesterday. SOME HON.M&~BERS: By leave! By leave! ~LR.SPEAKER: By leave.

And to keep our procedure straight,I had recongnized the hon. member for Naskaupi and he will be recoznized for a new petition because I understand the House has now given leave for further submissions on yesterday's petition. The hon. member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, it gives ~e great pleasure to support the petition presented by my hon. friend and.colleague from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) on behalf of 2,000 people from the towns of Springdale and from the Avalon Peninsula. Mr.

Speaker, I want to make reference to a statement which was made here in this House yesterday that enough has been said about the spruce budworm spray. Now that statement was made by the member for St. John's East (Mr.Marshall) and I say to the member for St. John's East (Mr.Marshall) that he should hold his head down in shame because, Hr. Spaaker, the people of this Province outside of the Avalon Peninsula are going to be subjected to a spray which is unknown, which there is no information on, a new spray which has been just recently registered in Canada and which we have no history of. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to say that there are only two or three days left before the spraying begins and many people on·the West Coast of this Province and throughout Central Newfoundland are very, very concerned about what is going to happen during that spray period. Now, Mr. Speaker, it came to my attention not more

June 15,1978 Tape No, 4427 AH-2 MR. HODDER: than a couple of days ago that a group of students from a church camp will be in the spray area during the time that that particular area is going to be sprayed. Among those children who are going to be there are two of my children and i feel that I have every right to get up and do everything that I can,say everything that I can to stop this government from spraying this Province this year. Nr. Speaker, there are two issues here, one is the health problem and the other is the problem concerning the forest, the ecology itself.

As far as t~e health problem of this spray is concerned there are no long-term studies, there are no studies whatsoever which show what the long-term effect on the health of human beings will be.

As far as the forests are concerned,there is evidence after evidence that once a forest is sprayed,if you interfere with the actual process of that forest, after one spray, once this government drops that spray on the forest not only will the spruce budworm be killed but other untold insects, birds and everything else,which will upset the ecology of these forests, and if you stop spraying next year you have done great damage to the forests of this Province. The history of spraying in this Province has been to spray first and ask questions afterwards.

If we look at what has happened in our sister province of New Brunswict. , they have used about four different chemicals • ~·enitrothione was the one that w~s used l~st year and the year before last in New Brunswick. They found that it'was harmful to the ecology and l~st year they started to spray, they sprayed one point five million acres with this matacil and there are still no studieR done as to what the effects of that particular insecticide will mean to the forest or the health of people in that particular ?rovince. I say , Mr.

Speaker, that the history of spraying in North American has been to sorav - there have been five different spravs used so far- find out t:hat the spray is harmful to something and then to switch the sprav to somethin2 else which no one knows anything about. Now the one thing that interests me,

_ .. .- • June 15, 1978 Tape 4428 Dli - 1 ~iR. J. HODDER: :1r. Speaker, is that t~P.re is all sorts of information been coming across my desk en the harmful affects of that spray Qut at the same time the government has not given one bit of documentary fact, not one stud:r !lave I seen tvhich says thu.t spraying should go ahead or that there is no harn in sprayir.g, there is no harm to the ecology, there is no harm to _henlth. And, Hr.

S!leaker, the minister- I will end on this particular point the 111inister has said w.any, many times that it is accepted by the Federal Government. 1: t-rant the cinister to show me documentary proof, I tvant him to put documentary ,roof on my desk showing just eYactly what the Fe<:i.eral Government says about spraying and why the Federal Government says that this particular chemical is safe because I have not seen it and I do not believe that the minister has made it public. SO:-IE RON. !"E{llf.?-S : Hear, hear: }1R_. SP:O:AKER : The han. member for Windsor - Buchans • '!R. G. "LIGHT: Mr.

Speaker, I want to rise to support the netition so c:bly presented yesterday and to adcl. a few more tvords. ~!r. <:pea!~er, that is fifty-four names, two consecutive days, f:',Jo consecutive petitions, fifty-four people who have petitioned this ~ouse. AN !WN • lfENll~R : '-1J',. G. FLIGHT: Fifty-four hundred people. I am sorry. Fifty-four hundred people who in two days Hith two consecutive petitions have petitioned this House. And the basis o: the concern, ~Ir. Speaker, is getting now to the people's fear of what rnatacil tvill do either to the human ~ealtr. or to the total environment.

Anc, Yr. 'pea!,_er, I cannot understand and the people of this Province cannot understand that. Hhy it ir. that that minister and this government is so insersitive and so ada'lk'lnt about the selected ,,_reas to be sprayed? Less th-nn 10 per cent of the timber producing lands in this Province is being sprayed. That means the governmen~ would have had a choice if they had to spray they would have had a choice of 9~ per cent of the producir.g forests in this Province.

June 15, 1973 Tape 4.!.20 :rn.. G. FLIGHT: So why is it, '·fr. Speaker, that they adamantly,insensitively insist on spraying the ·area Rrourtn Gander Lake, town water supplies, spray areas in '"hich there are communities located rjght in the spray bloc~ or right on the environment. And I suspect, Vr .. Speaker, and the r.1inister is not prepared to admit it but the trut~1 Hi.ll have to come out, .I suspect that the minister is not in control of this programme.

The spray programme itself is under tae ausp:l.ces of the paper companies of tcis Province and they he.ve designated where the spray will take place and not the ~!inister of Fcrestry and Agriculture. I read an editorial yesterday in the people's paper, 1.rhere the minister has been saying in this l House that no spra::iing lvill take place under conditions with wind speeds over 5 miles per hour.Yet the people who are doing the spraying,· the pilots and the companies doing the spray says t~at they will spray up to 12 miles per hour. How let the minister explain t!1at ,one. 'tlho is running the show?

Hho is running the spray programme? Is it the Departr•ent of Forestry and Agriculture or is it the people who ~¥ill do the spraying? Five miles per hour, . 1-lr. Speaker, by the government submission. THelve m1.les per hour by the con:panv who ~<Till be doing the spraying. :'here is a very great danger here, Mr. Speaker, that the Department of Forestry i and Agriculture isl in the clutches of the companies.

I I being sprayed in this And I would suggest that the timber Province is the timber designated by the two paper companies because t!1at is the most economical 1.rood supply and they are not too ~uch concerned about the spruce ~udworrn,young or old grm.rth,infested timher that is outside of the areas that they consider economical tircber. The paper comparries, ~·!r. Speaker, in this Province have high graded over this past fifty years and they are still high grading and now they are going to say to the government

June 15, 1978 Tape 4428 'iL G. FLICIIT: of !·lewfoundland, "You spray this particular tiimber ')ecause '·Je want to keep cutting ;dthin the tilnber that is easily accessible and ne,rer'· mind the environmental effects or t~e affects that the·· spray ~till have on the health of the people or on the total e:lVironment." :~r. Sp2al~er, the people of this Province are totally, completed turned off with the Department of Consumer Affairs and ;.nvironment. They ~uestion the!r a')ility to monitor the affects of the spray programme. r.1is year we are going to have to have t":-70 applications.

Lt!S t year He monitored a progranune that only had one ~pplication and it was monitored by eight or ten students from ~~emorial University Hho were probably more interested ir. earnlr:g a Sumrrer 's wages than they were in telling the people of Ne1-1foundland what the adverse affects of the spray programme Has. And, Mr. Speaker, lve have· seen .no evidence. l..re have seen no evidertce.Hot once in this House has .. the :~inister of Consumer iUfairs · and Environment rose to defend his department . • AN HOl:. ~'ElfiE?.: ; 1R • SPEAim::t: Order, please! Order, please! Hon.gentleman both to my right and my left. G.

FLIC-P.T: So, ~tr. Speaker, the people of th&s Province and the people petitioning are not necessarily petitioning totally and wholly against the spray programme. Down the road maybe ~e have to look at a' programme but certainly we have to lmat at ~>lith the· better interests of the people concerned taking into account their fear for the health of their childrenjand the total ...

June 15, 1978 Tape 4429 PK - 1 Mr. Flight: environment and total ecology. And we should not be spraying the areas we are spraying. And the only reason we are is because the Minister of Forestry have not had the intestinal forti tude to stand up to the paper companies and say, "I will decide where we spray in this Province, and 1ve will also decide where you cut~' because we are deciding either. Mr. Speaker, I support the petition. SOME HON; MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Lewisporte. MR. F. WHITE: Mr.

Speaker, I just want to say a coup 1 e of words on this petition that was presented yesterday by the han. gentleman for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) and make a couple of points. One of the points that I would like to make, Mr. Speaker, is that the government are spraying this year when science is on the verge of massive breakthroughs in pest control. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR; F. l•IHITE: And I think that is evident, Mr. Speaker, not only in Canada but throughout the United States. And I refer specifically, Mr. Speaker, to a new thing that is being developed in the United States, and now in New Brunswick as well.

And I saw a television programme the other night where this particular development is going ahead in New Brunswick, it is call Pheromone. And, Mr. Speaker, what it actually is is the development of the scent of the female worm or bug. Now in the United States they developed this particular - it is still a chemical, but it does not harm anything - they developed this particular scent that they sprayed over the bollworm,which is the moth that is yery similar to the spruce budworm which attacks the cotton fields in Calfornia and other Southern States.

And last year where they sprayed in Southern California with this Pheromone in an area that they sprayed in there was only a 10 per cent damage by the bollworm, and iri the area that they did not spray in there was an 80 per cent damage factor by the bollworm in the area that they did not spray in. So what we have, Mr. Speaker, is the development of this female scent that is sprayed over the forest, and it attracts

June 1 5 , 1978 Tape 4429 PK - 2 Mr. White: the male worm or the male bug and it sort of goes on indiscrimate orgies and so on, and all of a sudden. the female scent is no longer attractive to the male. And this is a major breakthrough that is being used in the United States at the moment. It is also being developed in New Brunswick , which I am sure the minister knows about, and I am sure he has some research done, and it looks like within a year that particular chemical will be available to be sprayed on all forests in New Brunswick, and it will naturally do away with the killer pesticfdes that are being used.

So, Mr. Speaker, I would support this petition that is brought in. I think the government should put an end to the spray programme for this year. They should declare a moratorium for this year on the spruce budworm spray programme. The egg mass counts are down on the West coast, they are going down in Central Newfoundland. And one final thing, Mr. Speaker, this year's cold weather in the Spring, cold,wet weather,has had a damaging effect on the spruce budworm. Two employees of the minister's department in Central Newfoundland took me into the woods,showed me larvae. that were dead this year, Mr.

Speaker, because of the cold temperatures. And they also showed me new growth on damaged timber from last year, which shows that tke forests in Central Newfoundland are on the way back this year. and the mfnister has not dealt with this issue. There has not been a sufficient survey done to indicate that new growth is appearing everywhere in Western and Central Newfoundland and. suggest, Mr. Speaker, that it will appear during the next few months in Eastern Newfoundland as well.

It is a needless spray programme when we are on the verge of a major breakthrough in science that will look 'after this particular epidemic in Newfoundland. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Stephenville. MR. MCNEIL: Mr. Speaker, I rise just briefly to support the petition presented by my han. colleague for LaPoile (Mr. Neary}. I am afraid, Mr. Speaker, the government is playing a cat and mouse game with regard to general information going out to the public, like, for

. · .. June 15, 1978 Tape 4429 PK - 3 · Mr. McNeil: example, the information like the maps, the area that is going to be sprayed. These things are not common knowledge to the private citizens. and I think that this should be, For example ·when the areas were first designated, when the minister made the statement, he said ·that it would be in all areas, it would be easy to get the maps to locate the location of where it was designated to be sprayed.

And the infonnation I get from The Hestern Star correspondent I in the ·stephenville area, he has stated to me that he had great difficulty in finding the locations that were going to be sprayed. And I hope that the·minister will correct this situation, if it still exists .

.. June 15,1978 Tape No. 4430 Ali-1 ~k. Speaker, another problem. In the Stephenville area, one of the sites of the spraying programme,the government has commissioned a private company to do the spraying. The government is putting ti•is company up in the community college and providing them with board and lodging. Mr. Speaker, I think this is doing the community a grave injustice because this company is a private company, paid to do_a job With the taxpayers money and now we are subsidizing the private company with board and lodging. I think,Mr.

Speaker, that if we are going to carry on such a programme, we are dealing with. a programme that is controversial, at least we should handle it in a very strict manner in that it should be so kept if there is a."ly benefit to be gained by that company in the area then the local businessmen,' entrepreneurs should receive some gain. But again here is another mistake by the department. Mr.

Speaker, 1 call upon the Minister of Forestry to change the setup, If this private company.is getting free board and lodging on the taxpayers of this Province then I wou~d hope that he will change this.And I fully support the petition so ably presented by my colleague SOME HON. MEMbERS: Hear, hear! . MR. SPEAKER: Han. memb~c for Eagle River • MR. STRACHAN : Mr. Speaker, there is one aspect of the spray programme that I would like to deal with in supporting this petition , namely, the use of the aircraft and the kind of aircraft being used to spray the forests.

We are talking here of using fairly large four engine DC -6's, which are a fairly large aircraft carrying a large load of insecticide, i When we look at the history of spray planes we find that [a great many spray planes, in fact qutte regularly spray plane crJshes occur, a I great deal of aircraft come down. It is a very difficult 1 operation, essentially because you are flying many times in still air and if anybody .has flown ~ush flights or bush planes they should know that still air is one of the hardest conditons • the roughest conditions to fly,especially i at low level.

Most people realize that take-off and landing with aircraft

~· .... . ti June 15,1978 Tape No. 4430 AH-2 are the most dangerous parts of the operation and while cruising at fairly high. heights there is no danger whatsoever • What we are talking about are f~ur engine DC•6's f~yi~g tr~etop level, 200 to 400 feet levels,spraying the insecticide, What I am concerned about is that this aircraft in this kind of spray programme is ideally suited to the prairies, it is ideally suited to New Brunswick,possibly,with large areas of forest but what we are talking about here is spraying in Newfoundland with the hilly terrain, a great deal of rough ground, a great deal of thermal upurafts and upcurrents and a great deal of variation and atmospherics.

Obviously what is going to occur here is that the pilots and so on are going to have to react very, very quickly to changing conditions whether they are flying over water or flying over treetops. If anybody has been in a bush plane and flown over forests and all of a sudden comes out of the forest and over the edge of a lake then they will realize exactly what happens. I can guarantee you from flying them that you can soar 1,000 .feet or be sucked down 1,000 feet very, very easily and in many cases you only alternative is to be able to add power and sometimes put your flaps down in order to give you some height.

Obviously what is occuring here and what I am concerned about is that these aircraft will be flying ~t a very low level, over very hilly terrain and there is no way that the pilot in his skill.judging can shut off the spray in time from villages. There is absolutely no way flying at the speeds he has to fly in order to maintain momentum. through ·these 4inds of drafts,that the pilot can close off these quick enough.

This is why many areas, many tOWns.and many playgrounds have been sprayed in the past, because of inconsistencies with the pilots·who are·not able to judge the wind speed or the updrafts and ~hut off the spray early _enough. This is why, I think, the buffer zone· is a foolish buffer zone. There is no way in flying that one can keep to that buffer zone, it is almost impossible.

I think that a great deal of damage will occur and I say to the minister that I bet from now until the spray programme finishes that every night he prays that one of these.large DC-6's does not crash into Gander Lake with a large quantity of insecticide and that the people's health is not damaged because of it. I think there is a

June 15, 1978, Tape 4431, Page 1 apb MR. STRACHAN: very serious concern here in using these aircraft. I do not think they are made for Newfoundland. I think it is fine in a larger forest to use, from an aircraft point of view, spraying and certainly I think the use of large aircraft adds a danger,especially at these heights. I think that the minister should really consider .. ~t very seriously because if anything occurs with these large aircraft there is going to be danger.

The idea that they can only go from five miles an hour - the minister says five miles an hour - is even more dangerous because anyone knows it is impossible to spray in still air because the spray remains up in the atmosphere. Only 30 per cent ever gets on the surface, the other 70 per cent drifts. If you are looking for any wind speed whatsoever, then you have a danger of dritt with the wind speed so it is a no win game, absolutely a no win game. Secondly, to spray in early morning is possible, I agree, because flying in the early morning is the ·only time one can carry out these kinds of conditions.

I think that the minister should look at it, should really look at it and suspend the operation of these large aircraft which, if they crash, if there is a crash the minister will be in real serious trouble .and really in the hot seat. I support the prayer of this petition. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. W.N .ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support the petition so ably, competently, admirably presented by my friend·and colleague from LaPoile district . (Mr. Neary) . MR. NEARY: Mucho gracias. MR. W.N.ROWE: Two thousand names were attached to that petition, Mr. Speaker, and that,! would

.. June 15, 1978, Tape 4431, Page 2 -- apb MR. W.N.ROWE: submit, indicates the se.riousness of this situation, this proposal to spray the poison matacil into the. atrnosphere,into the soil and into the water of this Province. Mr.

Speaker, any programme involving the health of our Province and the health of the people of the Province that demands an advertising programme and .all the media in the Province in order to support it, in order to try to cram it down the throats of the people of this Province, Sir, any programme involving the health of the Province that requires that kind of an advertising programme, spending thousands and tens of thousands of dollars of public money in order to make it palatable to the people, Sir, should on principle be abandoned. Mr.

Speaker, any programme involving the health of the people of the Province which is so fraught with inconsistencies, which has such contrary arguments proposed for and against it by people who are expert in the field, Mr. Speaker - I am referring to medical doctors - any programme which risks the health of our people should, with those kinds of inconsistencies and contrary arguments given by medical practitioners, should on that ground alone be abandoned. ·And, Mr~ Speaker, let us ·get straight as to who should bear the burden of proof in this matter.

I see statements made by the Minister of Forestry and .. other members of the government on occasion that somehow, Mr. Speaker, it is up to the people of the Province to prove that this poison chemical, matacil, is going to harm their health or their lives. The Minister will rise and say there is absolutely no evidence, or nobody has .produced any evidence. He will say, "Nobody has produced any evidence - MR. NEARY: They want bodies, do they?

June 15, 1978, Tape 4431, Page 3 -- apb MR. W. N . ROWE: - that this chemcial, matacil, is injurious to health." Mr. Speaker, that argument is a reprehensible argument, it is an argument which should not be accepted for one minute by any thinking person. It is not up to the people of the Province to prove that the poison chemical is dangerous; surely, Sir, it is up to the person seeking to use this chemical that its safety is beyond question and that it poses no danger and no risk whatsoever to the health and safety of our people. Mr.

Speaker, another inconsistency which on principle should make this programme be abandoned: When you get a minister who will rise and say the spray programme will not take place if the wind is over five miles an hour in the Province, as my hon. friend from Windsor - Buchans (Mr. Flight) mentioned, and then you get the company who are going to do the spraying say that the wind has to be over twelve miles an hour before they will - MRS. MCISSAC: Not over twelve. MR. F.B.ROWE: Not over twelve. MR. W.N.ROWE: It has to be over twelve miles an hour before they will stop spraying.

In other words, Sir, they will spray in winds up to twelve miles an hour, Sir. That inconsistency alone should raise grave fears in the minds of people in this Province and it should be abandoned, Sir, on those grounds, the groundS that the minister

June 15, 1978 Tape 4432 EC - 1 MR. Y. ROWE: does not appear to know what he is talking about. He is pushing something by advertisement and by public statement and he does not know what he is talking about. The egg mass count has gone down and is going down, Mr. Speaker, and the burden of proof is on the minister. What does he want, Sir? Does he want damage to health in the corning year before he has his proof and his evidence that there is some problem with regard to this matacil?

I say, Sir, it is too risky for that, and that in all the circumstances and with the grave problem, Sir - I see the hon. the member for St. John's Cent!e (Hr. Murphy) is about to *o to sleep again; he uses the House, Sir, as a dormitory. And he is so interested, Mr. Speaker, irt this ~atacil problem and the danger to the environment and the damage to the, environment, Sir, that it raises your morale, it raises your enthusiasm for the government.

Here he is, Mr.Speaker, lookl ··the Minister of the Environment who t•kes no interest whatso~ver in this grave and serious problem, will not answer questions on it, will scurry off now. And we intend to keep it up, Mr. Speaker. Do not let the hon. minister be uneasy about that, we intend to keep it up, Sir.

And my time having run out, let me sit down by saying, Mr.Speaker, that the minister should abandon thia programme on the grounds of a half dozen inconsistencies and problems and questions, Sir, either one of which would be sufficient evidence and sufficient grounds for taking this programme and throwing it out the window and never implementing it in this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for St.George's.

June 15, 1978 Tape 4432 EC - 2 MRS. MciSAAC: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support the petition presented by the member for LaPoile (Mr.Neary). I have some co~cern about it too, since one of the ateas to be sprayed is near the St. George's area, and while it may not be directly over what the ~inister would consider the water supply, which is the Dribble in St. George's, it will definitely affect three of the ponds that supply water to this Dribble - the Dribble Ponds, we call' them.

And they are in one of the areas to be sprayed, from what I can understand, and there is no way that you can spray those ponds, the ponds that empty into the Dribble,without contaminating the water supply in St. George's. And we found last year that there were traces of it found in the water supply in Corner Brook. And I am sure the Premier must be concerned about that and members of the Humber area must be concerned about that. I am wondering also how long this matacil stays in the environment. We do not have any information on it. The minister has not passed out anything concrete on it.

All we have is what we have been able to gather, and we have made an all-out attempt to gather information, but all we can find or most that we have found is against. We have not ~ound anything that says matacil is safe and we would like for the minister to come through with it. Last year, from what I can understand, they were a mile and a half off target with the spray. Who is to say they are going to be on target this year? What happens as far as crashes are concerned? We know how many crashes they have had in New Brunswick. They have had two already this year.

I heard figures quoted, and I could stand to be corrected on this, I understand that

June 15, 1978 Tape 4432 EC - 3 MRS. MciSAAC: they had last year or the year before, seventeen crashes. Maybe it was last year and the year before combined, but out of seventeen crashes I understand that eleven of them have been proven to have been caused by pilots being overcome by the spray. So if this is the case, are we not taking an awful chance? And there are 600 young children between the ages of ten and fifteen years going into the area this year with the 4-H. That is all planned. Okay, all that has to be cancelled.

But do they not have the right to be notified by the minister or by somebody that all this is going to happen and where it is going to happen and When it is going to happen? Or are we all going to be sprayed in the middle of the night when nobody knows what is going on? ~ I do not have much confidence in the Minister of Forestry. I have said that before. And I have no conf~dence in the Minister of the Environment and the Minister of Health.

• ... June 15, 1978 Tape 4433 PK - 1 Mrs. MCisaac: confidence in the Minister of the Environment and the Minister of Health . They are not doing one thing to prove·the Minister of the Environment, the Minister of Forestry, the Minister of Health are the three ministers who should be concerned about this, who should be trying to. get the information out to the people to assure the people that there are no harmful affects. So I am not even going to consider those ministers. am making my plea to the Premier of this Province to take control of this thing before it gets out of hand.

And we have three ministers here ~~hom I feel are not responsible, and if there is ever time for a Cabinet shuffle this is it. And the Premier of this Province knows iast year,: as well as I do, that the spray got into the water supply in Corner Broo~. I know this year that if they spray in the St. George's area ~s planned that it is going to get· into the St. George's water supply. And, ot course, we know that it is going to get into other water supplies.

So like I said, if there is ever ·a time for a Cabinet shuffle or if there is ever· a . ' time for the Premier of this Province to stand on his feet and say this spray will not be carried out this is the time to do it. SOME HON: MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MRS. MCISAAC: And if the Premier is the man that I think he is this is exactly what he will do. He will stop. those people from creating a disaster iri this Province that can never be corrected. Thank you. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Naskaupi. MR. GOUDIE: I wish to present a new petition, Mr. Speaker.

I assume all .members who wish to take

part in the other one have already done so. I beg leave to present a petition, Mr. Speaker, on behalf of 295 residents of Chruchill Falls, the Westernmost community of my district, the district of Naskaupi. have added my signature as well which makes it 296. The prayer of the petition, Mr. Speaker, reads:'we the undersigned residents of Churchi 11 Fa 11 s, Labrador~ Newfoundland. wish to make known to our elected MHA, Joseph Goudie, and· request him to strongly represent

·~ ·~ June 15, 1978 Tape 4433 PK - 2 Mr. Goudie: us and make known to the Provincial Government of Newfoundland our displeasure with their policy towards Labrador, and their inactivity towards the Trans-Labrador Road, and strongly urge them to commence work on this road in 1978." As I said, Mr. Speaker, there are 296 signatures attached. They are ta 1 king about the Tate Road. They ;~re not requesting in this petition that the Tote Road be upgraded to an all-weather highway or anything like that.

But one of the ugencies involved in the concerns of the people is that the Tote Road exist now, but because of an extremely heavy runoff during one and a half weeks this Spring,several sections· of the road have either been washed out or the bridges or culverts washed away. And there are three rivers in particular, another area known as Pope's Hill has been fairly heavily damaged. The Minister of Transportation and Communications has already given instructions to his highway crew at North ~lest River to begin work on the road, and I understand that they have already begun.

But there is a fairly lengthly time frame involved in this procedure, Mr. Speaker. We are talking about a 200 mile stretch of gravei road, Last .. vear it took four weeks and two I days to complete the work, to make it passable so that people can get out of Churchill Falls with there vehicles to take advantage of the ferry.

Now I know after having visited Church i 11 Fa 11 s on the weekend past that there are a dozen or two dozen families who have made reservations to catch the ferry, The Sir Robert Bond for July 8, and that does not leave very much time between now and then for the highway's crew to complete repairs to this road.

But the only alternative open to the residents of Churchill Falls is to fly out and if you have a family of four or five people, you are talking about an airfare alone of. in excess of $1,000, plus the prospect of renting a vehicle after they get out to the Island part of the Province for their holidays, for a month period, or whatever. So tt runs into

June 15, 1978 Tape 4433 PK - 3 Mr. Goudie: a considerable amount of money. If this road is upgraded to a passable condition in timelor near the time for the ferry service coming into effect on the first week or so of July,it will certainly make a difference to them. and to their holidays which they propose to take this Summer. So I support the petition, Mr. Speaker. commend it to the han. House, and ask that it be placed on the Table and referred to the department to which it relates.

... • i i I ·. ). June 15, 1978 Tape 4434 EC - 1 HR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Eagle River. HR. STRACHAN: Mr. Speaker, I support the prayer of this petition, the petition~in fact, presented by the member for Naskaupi (Mr. Goudie). And the government side supports all that the Leader of the Opposition and myself have said for a considerable time now concerning the whole road, the idea of the road from Labrador City to Esker, and now, of course, the Churchill Falls to Goose Bay road. I support the petition because I think that what the people are asking for is extremely reasonable.

They are not as~ing for the $300 million four lane, paved highway that the Premier has promised them or stated will.be given to them or stated he will work · o~. What they are asking for is something very sensible. They are asking for upgrading of the road to a passable condition so that they can drive out from Churchill Falls and they can get.to Goose Bay and utilize the services of the Sir Robert Bond which I believe will be coming into Goose Bay around July 4th.

The member indicated and I am aware that this year there was a very heavy run-off in Labrador and it will take at least four to six weeks in order to try and get the road back into condition, which means that·~or many of th~m there may.be delays on that because some of the rivers are very heavily washed out. I also would like to suggest that the idea of using culverts on .some of these large riv~rs, it does not matter what size of culvert one is using, should be questioned. I think the minister should ex~mine it very carefully because it makes no difference, a culvert becomes a focal point for ice

June 15, 1978 Tape 4434 EC - 2 ~. I HR. STRACHAN: jams, and it makes no difference whether the culvert is ten feet wide or twenty feet wide or thirty feet wide· It makes no difference at all because it is an ice jam situation and, of course, once anything hangs up, everything hangs up and the sandbank situation there forces the river to wipe around and every year you have more and more work to do. It is not a simple matter of replacing the culverts, you therefore have to put in more culverts and continue on.

And what I suggest they should do here is that there should be a very serio~s bok at the building of bridges on that area to maintain it; if not, certainly br~dges which can be moved or taken apart, because the people are not looking for a beautiful highway. What they are looking for is access~ the Freedom Road, as they call it, to allow them to get out of isolation and to travel back to the Island.

And I think it is shockingin that one part of this Province, the people in Churchill Falls in order to go for a holiday have to spend in excess of $1,500 for a family to come to the Island and go back to Churchill Fall~ And I think t~ any part of this Province where you have to spend a lot more than you do to go from St. John's or Gander to London, Paris or Prestwick, ia a ridiculous situa~ion and a bad reflection on the government for not moving more quickly. Churchill Falls and Goose Bay are primarily supported by the federal government or Churchill Falls hjdro.

Labrador West is individual, on its awn, supported by mining towns, and Goose Bay is supported primarily by D.P.W., D;O.T. and various federal Jf government organizations. There is very little provincial money going in. $67 million of provincial money for h~ghways this year and hardly a p•nny of that is going to

i' June 15, 1978 Tape 4434 EC - 3 HR. STRACHAN: be spent iri Labrador. tt is typical. I have been arguing this for years, I have been arguing it the last three years here, and if it continues this way no wonder the people in Labrador have become frustrated. They cannot drive out, they cannot have freedom and they have much higher costs than anyone else in the Province just to come back to that part of the Province that they want to come back to.

And if there are many more years of it it will mean that the people will say, 'To hell with it, we will go elsewhere for our holidays; we will fly elsewhere, ·go West or go elsewhere and they will forget their:.ties and lose their, ties because of this neglect. And I think that the petition presented by the government member supporting exactly the same as we have been talking about for weeks is excellent and I commend the minister. And I say, move quickly. Get some money into this kind of project. It is not a great deal of money that is requited.

It is not a $300 million job - it is rnuch less than that - and get the road built so that people can have some freedom and can remove themselves from this isolation. I support the prayer of the petition. SOME HON. MEMBERS: ;1R. SPEAKER: Labour and Manpower. MR. ROUSSEAU: Hear, hear! The hen. the Minister of I wholeheartedly support the petition presented by my friend and colleague from Naskaupi (Mr. Goudie). Between 1972 and 1975 I ~epresented Churchill Falls and I have thought during this past session' you could almost call Churchill Falls the forgotten part of Labrador, really. The emphasis

June 15, 1978 Tape 4434 EC - 4 MR. ROUSSEAU: appears to be on Western Labrador or on the coast of Labrador or on the Happy Valley - Goose Bay area, and ofttimes we tend to forget the small community in the middle of Labrador, Churchill Falls. It was a difficult community to contact whefi it was in the district of Labrador West because it is not connected by road to Labrador City - Wabush. It is just as difficult now to connect it physically with Goose Bay - Happy Valley and the other areas that my hon. friend represents, including Churchill Falls. The advent of the ferry, the roll on roll off that we had going in from

~- June 15, 1978 Tape 4435 n~-r - 1 ~:rt. RO:JSf>EAU: Le~1isporte to the C-oose Bay - Happy Valley area is one that was t,,elcomed very much by people up there. Of course they could then bring their cars out, or those people from Churchill Falls C-ast could drive to Happy Valley - r.oose Bay and cake their reservations many months in advance and ha~e their cars back on the Island pe.rt of the Province instead of having to pay for them by air freight.

It is a very important link with the Island part of the Province.- I .fully support the petition and I know that the people there in Churchill Falls t~ould be very pleased with it as would the people in Labrador City - l-labush who may some day soon be able to drive their cars over to the Happy Valley - Goose Bay area and also put them on the roll on roll off ferry. So, I have no hesitation lvhatsoever in enthusiastically supporting the petition so ably presente~ by my friend and colleague for t:askaupi (Hr. r,oudie). The hon. ::1ember for Terra :-:ova. i-1?... Lt:SH: l·!r.

Speaker, I ~1ant to support this petition so well presented by the member for Naskaupi, on behalf of 2J5 residents of Churchill Falls many of ;vhom,I expect,are friends of mine that I knm.; when I was there, when I lived there for five years,and was a teacher there. Although the complexity of the tetvn has changed t~emendousl7 since I have been there I understand that still many of the people that I knew, many of my friends are still there. :-rr. Speaker, it is a road that I knotv vlell.

Although· I have not driven the entire distance from Churchill Falls to Goose Bay I have driven the first sixty miles, the sixty miles on the Churchill Falls side of it. I went over it many times, shot many geese on that road, caught many fish on that road.- On the road? r1R. LUSH: On the road and I exactly - with respect to shooting geese I mean exactly what I say,on the road. llot the fish. of course. we had to go to the ponds for these but not too far remOved, caught t:le fish in the ponds adjacent. A beautiful scer.erv,

... :. .. June 15, 1ns Tape 4435 '·ffi. LUSH: ~-~r. Speaker, driving t~at road, a narvelous scenery and it is too bad that the road luts not been kept in good conc!ition. !!ut as I say 1 it is a road that I !rnmv well and I oniy wish that I could drive over it sometimes in .:; the morning, on a Saturday, be able to go on that road and go out and hunt and fish. T)lJ - 7. As a matter of fact, !·~r.

Speaker, the first time that we were allowed to drive on t~at road the,citizens of Churchill, the proletariat the first time we could drive on that road,even though the road was through long before the first time we could drive through>it was in the election of 1971. Prior to that only yellow cars could go on that road and yellow cars,of course. -that were the company cars, the big shots and we, the proletariats . we ;were not allow£d to go on it.

But during the ~J.ection in the Fall of 19717 the word came out that •.ve proletariats could use the road and there was a great onslaught by the ten or ~rel ve of us who had cars onto the road going as far as we could go. But, 1-~r. Speaker, this is a marvelous idea to do this road bEcause it will give the Churchill Falls people a link with the Island part of this Province; and with Goose Bay or >ve should say, tvith a part of this Province.

Link the ttvo parts of Labrador together giving us a link to ·the Island - C.oose Bay with Churchill and Churchill Hith Goose Bay giving us a greater affinity," a greater feeling towards eac!1 other. Right now people have to leave Churchill via Esker, ·forced to go to Quebec and that is a very expensive route• That is the route ·that I had to use tvhen I was there with my family. Drive your car to Esl-.er, put it ·on the train there and the car would go to Seven Islands and then~of course; you woulrl fly to Seven Islands to pick it up and rlrive up the ~!orth shore, the Quebec North shore up to St. Latvrence.

Very expensive unless a person wanted to make a trip out of !t but-~ost people want to come home directly they do not want to spend all of this money before they arrive home.

June 15, 1978 ~!R. LT.;SH: So this thing will serve two purposed,r·ainly, ~-'r .- Speaker; the social purpose of bringing· the tlvo areas together, these two isolated areas Goose Bay and .Churchill Falls and then making a connection ~•ith the Island because 9eople,naturally,put their cars on the beat to come .to ~lorthern ;leHfioundland. And so it ;vill serve a great social reason, a great reason of bringing us; ·binding us together. The other one,of course;is a matter of economics.

Because right now it is very expensive for people in Churchill coming out of there, as I said before, having ·to drive their cars to Esker and having the cars placed on the train and taken to Seven Islands and then,of course, having to fly to Seven Islands and then DH - 3

,.. .. "'· June 15, 1978 Tape 4436 PK - 1 Mr. Lush: drive the car all the way up through the Quebec North Shore and down through the Provinces of Quebec, New Brunswick, and Nova Scotia, a long, long run to ~et back to the Island, and as I have said, very expensive. I do not know what it would mean AN HON: MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. LUSH: Pardon? MR. ROUSSEAU: (Inaudible). MR; LUSH: That is right! That is right! So it is a long route, and an expensive route for the people trying to get home, to get to the Province.

And as I said, going the other way will service the purpose of bringing us together, bringing Goose Bay and Churchill together, and then the further link to the Island part of·the Province. And I would hope that the Minister of Transportation and Communications will be able to say today that the necessary funds will be allocated and, Mr.

Speaker,an attempt to keep the road upgraded as much as· possible so that it can be used for·a great part of the year, so that these two areas can be kept together and eventually, ·of course, this to become a part of the Labrador Highway connecting Labrador City and Wabush to it·as well, and an extension of·roads to the coast. I would hope that .the government certainly will be able to say today that they are going to do as requested by the petitioners for the sake of Labrador, and for the sake of the Island part of this Province, and for the sake of the people livin~ in Churchill Falls.

I certain)y ho~e that the·minister will be able to respond in the positive, respond yes, that some action wi 11 be taken. Mr. Speaker, it gives me great delight. to support the petition. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Tourism. MR; MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, in supporting the petition put forward by my colleague for Naskaupi (_Mr. Goudie),that road I am quite familiar with ·having travelled that road with the· member for ·Naskaupi last year; There is a very definite need ·for a link between Churchill Falls and Goose. That .is very obvious, because of the fact that taking into

I ! June 15, 1978 Tape 4436 Pk - 2 Mr. Morgan: consideration the CN ferry service which will now be restored again as a result of the boat modification being carried out, and the people in Churchill Falls~naturally,many of them want to come bacR to the Island part of the Province for their vacation. However,! do have some concerns in having the road opened up· in its present condition, and these concerns were expressed last year.

Hopefully, of course, the only solution is to find sufficient funds,hopefully from the federal level as well, assistance from there to carry out a major reconstruction of the road up to a standard to the level of paving. But in opening up the road in its present condition there are some 'hazards, because unless the people, for example, agree to travel in convoy there is no servicing on the road, there are no service stations, there are no outlets, the road is a dangerous, narrow, winding road with many potential hazards. For example, there are many deep embankments with no guardrails etc.

So in order to carry out a ·prope·r. job we need, of course, a massive amount of funds; we are talking, I 'think, of $35 million required to do that job of reconstructing the road from Churchill Falls to Goose. AN HON. MEMBER: Just to drive on. MR; MORGAN: Not just to drive on, It is to reconstruct ·the road to a standard to , well, a Trans-Canada Highway standard, if you wish, and paved.

But to open the road in its·present condition, of course, r am hoping that the people will agree if the road is opened up - last year I recall when I was Minister of Transportation and Communications we arranged to open the road by filling in those gaps that were washed out, and the cost was not a great cost, around $100,000, and these gaps were filled in, and the road was used by people trucking goods back and forth, in fact, 'from Esker Railway Station down to Goose.

But I am hopeful, if funds are fo~nd to open the road up this year for use of the (hurchill Falls residents,that the residents will also comply with the request that·they travel in convoy and use the road Hith extreme care because the road is a dangerous road. ·sOME'HON: 'MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

June15, 1978 Tape 4436 Pk - 3 Mr. Morgan: And I am looking forward to the day when this . government in conjunction with the federal government can allocate enough funds to do a major reconstruction job all the way from Goose of course across to Labrador City and Wabush. Mr. Speaker, I support the petition and hope that funds can be found to at 1 east open the road this year for the use of the residents of Churchill Falls. MR: SPEAKER: . . MR. WHITE: The hon. the member for Lewisporte . Mr.

Speaker, I ~10u 1 d just 1 ike to say a word or two to support the petition as presen.ted by my hon. friend, the gentleman for Naskaupi (Mr.J Goudie). Of course, I have a vested interest from a district point of view, Mr. Speaker, in wanting this road upgraded, and naturally I will speak for it whenever I can and whenever I get a chance to. 'The·Robert·Bond, Mr. Speaker, is going to be coming into Lewisporte on the 3rd. of July, in a couple of weeks, to start its re9ular ferry service to Northern Newfoundland.

We are told that there are !lOing to be two trips a week out of Lewi sporte; the vesse 1 wi 11 not be coming into St. John's this year. However, there is a bit of a problem in that by the third week in August ·or the fourth week in · August there is going to be very little for The Bond to be carrying. So we are looking at five or six weeks of operations for that particular ferry service and then there might be some danger that the number of trips per week,the frequency,will have to be cut back and will diminish, and maybe we will be

•. ·• June· 15,1978 Tape No. 4437 AH-1 MR.WHITE: down to one trip a week,or maybe the ferry will have to go to the Argentia run or somewhere like that. So in order to keep the ferry going between Lewisporte and Goose Bay,I would hope that the government would make some attempt to have the road from Churchill Falls to Happy Valley-Goose Bay upgraded so at least it can be used this year. Now, Mr. Speaker, the last speaker on this petition, the Minister of Tourism, indicated that it would cost $35 million to bring that road up to standard and I think that is a deception, Mr. Speaker.

I am not suggesting it is a deliberate deception but I do not think it would cost $35·million to make that road passable to the extent that - MR. MORGAN: Not passable, no, MR. WHITE: Well,this is what I am suggesting, that if it were made passable this year by the expenditure of some money. ~ the former speaker, the minister. said $100,&00 last year made it passable -so if you had $800,000 or $900,000 this year I would suggest that it would be in as good a shape as some of the gravel roads in my district, Mr. Speaker, and people find it okay to ride over them from time to time.

So I would suggest to the minister that all the people of Churchill Falls are asking for is some small expenditure of money to make the road adequate, Mr. Speaker, so they can drive their cars down to Goose Bay and put them on the ferry. It is only 200 miles and 200 miles of gravel road is a long trip,I know,but I am sure some of the people in Churchill Falls would be .glad to do it in order to get their cars to Newfoundland and to spend their vacations at home. So I would support the petition, l1r.

Speaker, and I would u;ge the Minister of Transportation and Corrmunications to clear up this myth that it would cost $35 million just to get the people goin" nver that road, ·It would not be anything near that amount and I think- t1R. D90DY: 11R.WHITE: (Inaudible) But,you know,$35 million leaves the wrong impression. I know it means to bring it up to the standard of the Trans-Canada ·Highway but· I would ·like to know how much it would cost to just make it passable so that cars can use it this year.

June 15,1978 Tape No. 4437 AH-2 HR. WHITE: I support the petition, Hr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: Hon. member for LaPoile. r!R. NEARY: ~1r. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure,Sir, to support the petition presented by the member for Naskaupi CMr. Goudie) on b~1alf of 295 voters in the community of Churchill Falls in the district of Naskaupi. l1r. Speaker, .the prayer of the petition is a very simple one and a very reasonable one. The people want the road· upgraded from Churchill" to Goose so that t!1ey can connect with the CN ferry coming down to the Island part .of the Province here.

I believe, I am not quite sure, but I believe this is the first petition presented · on behalf of citizens of the new community of Churchill Falls. AN HON.MEM.BER: Yes. i1R, NEARY: It is a historic day, Sir, for this Province. !t is the first petition ever to be presented in this House by citizens ' ·I who live·in.the community of Churchill Falls. AN HON.HEMBER: And presented by a good Liberal. MR. NEARY: And presented by my hon. friend,the member for Naskaupi CMr.Goudie) who I believe last week attended a ceremony at Churchill Falls. I do not know if that is when the hon. member was passed the petition or not.

I understand it was a very impressive cermony, The former Premier of this Province, I believe, did the honour,and rightly ·so, having had so much to do with the development of· the Upper Churchill, Sir. Mr. Speaker, let me say this in support of the petition. Apart from the fact that it will give .t~e people an out, I they can bring their cars and campers and vehicles an~ so forth out I and they can get across on the ferry, I really belieye,.

Sir, and I am sincere when I say this, that instead of Newfoundlandj aydro buying the Philip Place to house the Churchill Falls Corporation.and the Newfoundland and Labzr.ador Power Corporation, I believe, Sir, that the Churchill Falls Corporation should be located in Churchill Falls, not: h·ere on the J.sland

.. june 15,1978 Tape No. 4437 AH-3 HR. NEARY: of Newfoundland. It should be located at Churchill Falls. Why should it not be, Hr. Speaker? lve managed to get it moved out of Hontreal. ~!R. SPEAKER: Order, please! I feel that the hon. member should support the petition concerning the roads. c!R. NEARY: Yes, Sir, but this makes the road all the more important, Mr. Speaker, and that is the link that r am trying to make there. and if Your Honour had not jumped the gun on me. r··believe that

June 15, 1978 Tape 4438 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: all the business in connection with the Upper Chur~hill and in connection with the development of the Lower Churchill,· Gull Island, I believe that it should be done from a head office in Churchill Falls, and that makes the road all that much core important, Mr. Speaker. And I really and sincerely believe that, Sir. I do not think we should have the Churchill Falls Corporation here in St. John's.

And Churchill Falls would then grow and prosper, the population would increase, and then with the development of the Lower Churchill with all the activity going on in the construction stage and so forth, this could become a very important road link between Churchill Falls·and Happy Valley -Goose Bay. I believe it is now called the Freedom Road, is it not?

It would indeed.be truly a Freedom Road, Sir, if the government would take this matter seriousiy in Labrador and accede to the wishes and the requests of the people in Labrador West and get the road finished from Labrador City righc on down to Happy Valley - Goose Bay. Then it would be worthy of being called the Freedom Road, Sir. But I believe the first stage would be to get the upgrading done now on the Churchill Falls - Goose Bay part of that road.

Last year - last Fall, I believe, I was there, in October month I think it was - and the reason I remember the month is because the Leadership was on at the time and I was down there doing a little politicking and a little campaigning, and I believe Mr. ·Woodward was moving some trailers or some eq~ipment out of there around that time. And there may have been other people using th~t road, but they told me that they had to bipass the bridges and so forth, ~hey were washed out. They had to

June 15, 1978 Tape 4438 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: make their own bypasses. So I imagine the road at this particular moment is in pretty bad shape. MR. STRACHAN: Where the rivers are. MR. NEARY: Where the rivers are, that is right. Where the rivers and streams are they had to make their little bypasses and so forth. But they did manage to get these big trailers down from Churchill. As my hon. friend knows, down n~w parked at the Goose airport is all kinds of equipment that is being brought down from the Lower Churchill and from the Upper Churchill development. They were gradually moving it in.

It is a very important stretch of road, Sir. It should be upgraded and I would like to see the government take this matter seriously. I congratulate the hon. gentleman for making history in this House today on behalf of the people of Churchill Falls by presenting the first petition e~er presented by the new community of Churchill Falls. I support the prayer of the petition, Sir. I do hope that the government will take it seriously and do something about upgradins this road. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Transportation and Communications. HR. DOODY: Mr.

Speaker, as I speak in support of the petition presented by my hon. friend from Naskaupi (Mr. Goudie) there are one or two points that I would like to mention. The first one has already been touched on by the member ~resenting the petition to the effect that the Department of Highways people are already

June 15, 1978 Tape 4438 EC - 3 MR. DOODY: at work on that road. The intention is to bring it to at least the same condition as it was last season, which made it passable, ariveable but certainly not up to an acceptable standard as we recognize road conditions today. But ~s has been indicated, it is a condition which the people in Churchill would appreciate, be~ause it is far, far better than to be completely isolated as they are right now. Our people are working on that. The Robert Bond; I understand, the first sailing is scheduled for the 8th of July.

I would hop~ that the road will be passable and drivable by that time. Surprisingly enough, my information from the department's people in the area is that the road is in reasonably good shape considering the Winter that we have h~d and the Spring with the heavy water run-offs. There are some sections of the road which are in very bad shape, but by and large the road has stood up very well.

The major item, I think, that government has to address itself to in working on that road and getting it open as a permanent link would be the establishment of three permanent structures, three permanent bridges over the three brooks, the names of which I will not mention to the han. House. MR. NEARY: MR. HICKMAN: MR. DOODY: Why not? Why do you find that amusing! The hon. member finds it amusing that I am too shy to mention the names of these rivers, but I quite honestly am, Sir.

,..; ~. .. June 15, 1978, Tape 4439, Page 1 -- apb MR. DOODY: I will leave it to some people who are a lot braver than I am, more familiar with that sort of terminology. The intention and the hope would be that we get these permanent structures in place. So that would be not only a big step forward in terms of making the road passable, but it would also.indicate a degree of stability and permanence that has not been demonstrated on that road in the past. I would suggest that that would be the first step that government should apply itself to during the next season.

This season, as I say, the object which is now underway is to get that road in driveable condition and made accessible to the people, from Churchill to Goose, for the opening of the Robert Bond's.scheduled sailing. To that end the people in the department are working assiduously and I sincerely hope that they reach that deadline. Thank you, Sir . MR. SPEAKER: The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. W.N.ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I would like a brief word in support of this petition, presented by my han. friend the member for Naskaupi district (Mr. Goudie), and signed by 295 residents of the corilmunity of Churchill Falls.

Sir, this petition really, I suppose, more than any other petition that has ever been presented to the House, or any argument that has been presented to the HOUf!e, indicates the fragmented nature of our Province, ·particularly the Labrador part of our Province. We often talk in terms of, and hear people speak in terms of the several parts of Labrador. Sometimes people even go so far as to say they have very little in·common, one with the other. You have Western Labrador with the two communities,Wabush and Labrador City; you have Central Labrador which is usually considered to be the Happy Valley -

June 15, 1978, Tape 4439, Page 2 -- apb MR. W. N. ROWE: Goose Bay area - but I think you would put the Churchill Falls area in Central Labrador rather than Western Labrador - and you have the coast of Labrador and you have the Straits of Belle Isle. And sometimes I believe people are right when they say some portions,at least,of this Labrador landmass have very little in common with the other. But here we have two communities which are supposed to comprise a region of Labrador, a Central region of Labrador,and.even these two communities, or these two areas where people live, Mr.

Speaker, the Churchill Falls _a~ea and the Goose Bay - Happy Valley area, even these do not have an adequate link one with the other. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. W.N.ROWE: That is right,the hydro. Mr. Speaker, how pathetic is it really, how utterly pathetic is it to have one of the great developments on the face of this globe, Upper Churchill, and here we are in this little House of Assembly talking about a road so you can shove a jeep on it and drive out of this great hydro development to the nearest population source in Central Labrador, Goose Bay - Happy Valley.

How utterly pitiful and pathetic is it at all? Sometimes you wonder what you are doing here. Two communities in a central part of the Province, fairly close together, still not even linked up by a modern transportation link, Mr. Speaker. _MR. NEARY: Shocking! MR. W.N.ROWE: It makes one despair that we are ever going to do anything in Labrador or with the Province,generally,by way of realistic development. But, Sir, I do not think .there is any need to be pessimistic about it ..

I think that if a government, either this government here or the next government, the government that succeeds it, if they do the right thing, Mr. Speaker, the .right thing both economically and in a social sense, they will link up those two parts of Labrador, they will link up

' ' ,- June 15, 1978, Tape 4439, Page 3 -- apb MR. W.N.ROWE: that part with Western Labrador, and they will link up those parts, Western and Central Labrador with the coast_ of Labrador and the Straits of Labrador and the Island part of the Province, Newfoundland. That is what a government should do and not at the cost of $300 million - the next time the Premier talk~ on it we will probably be talking about $500 million because it goes up every_ time he spea~s - not at a cost of $300 million but at the cost of several tens of millions of dollars to link up Labrador, Mr.

Speaker, open up that tremendous landmass, that reservoir of natural resources and make sure that the development takes place that should take place there, Sir, not only in economic terrns,but for the benefit of the people that live there. And we should not think only in terms, Mr. Speaker, of the 38,000 or so people who _live in ·Labrador, because as I have mentioned in past debates in this House, if the right things are done in Labrador, particularly by government leadership and the government lending a sense of direction to the development of Labrador, Mr.

Speaker·,. the whole economic and social and population centre of gravity of this Province will move Northward,

... June 15, 1978 Tape 4440 PK - 1 Mr. YL Rowe: and we will find, Sir, that, if the right things are done that there will not be 38,000 people living in Labrador in the next number of years, in the next generation, the next twenty­ five years, say, we will see many more scores of thousands of people, Sir, perhaps, even hundreds of.thousands of people living there.

And, therefore, Sir, the government should make the moves now which open up that tremendous landmass, open it up to exploration, open it up economicr.lly, open it up socially and link up the centres of population for the benefit of people living there, and the future generations, Mr. Speaker, who will be living there as well. ·soME HON. 'MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR: W. DOODY: Hear, hear! NOTICES OJ=' MOTIONS The hon. the Minister of Transportation and Communications. Mr.

Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave of the House to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Highway Traffic Act." And as the Minister of Public Works and Services, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave of this House to introduce a bill, "An Act To Require The Provision Of Facilities In Buildings For . Physically Disabled Persons.". MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. MR. MAYNARD: Mr.

Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce the following bills, "An Act To Amend The Public Service(Pensions)Act", "An Act To Amend The Department Of Forestry And Agriculture Act, 1973." MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Rehabilitation and Recreation. MR; HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I give notice· I will on tomorrow introduce a bill, "An Act To Provide For The Administration Of Certain Facilities Constructed For The Canada Suinmer Games." MR .. STRACHAN: MR. DOODY: MR. NEARY: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Do you want me to read mine again? Yes, read it again.

June 15, 1978 MR. STRACHAN: MR. SPEAKER: MR. HICKEY: Tape 4440 PK - 2 We could hear on this side whether the Act was a bill - If the hon. minister wishes to read it again. A bill, "An Act To Provide For The Administration Of Certain Facilities Constructed For The Canada Summer Games." SOME. HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh~ MR. HICKEY: What is that? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Provincial Affairs and the Environment. AN HON. MEMBER: Oh, oh~ MR. HICKEY: (Inaudible) the City Council. MR. MURPHY: Mr.

Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce the following bills, "An Act To Amend The Automobile Insurance Act","An Act To Amend The Management Accountants Act". MR. NEARY: Is that Mullaly's bill? MR. MURPHY: "An Act To Amend The Accident, Sickness Insurance Act", "An Act To Amend The Real Estate Trading Act." And I would like to amend one about building supplies on Bell Island, Sir, but that is all passed in the court. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health. MR. H. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce the following bills; a bill, "An Act To Amend The Hospital Insurance (Agreement) Act", and a bill, "An Act Respecting Dispensing Opticians." MR.NEARY: What was that? MR. H. COLLINS: Dispensing Opticians. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROUSSEAU: Oh, oh! The hon. Minister of Labour and Manpower; I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Workmen's Compensation Act," and I hope tomorrow or Monday, Mr. Speaker, to have copies for distribution to the House of the Review Committee. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

June 15, 1978 Tape 4440 PK - 3 MR; ~L HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce the following bills, A bill, "An Act To Amend And Revise The Law Respecting School Attendance," and, a bill, "An Act To Amend The College Of Fisheries Act, The College Of Trades And Technology Act, And !hePolytechnical Institute Act." "MR; SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. MR: HICKMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I give notice that will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce the following bills; a bill, "An Act To Amend The Registration Of Deeds Act", a bill, "An Act To Amend The Prisons Ac.t", a bill, "An Act To Amend The Constabulary Act", a bill, "An Act To Remove Anomalies An~ Errors In The Statute Law", and as Minister of Finance, a bill, "An Act To Provide For The Payment Of Accelerated Pensions To Employees Of The Government Of Newfoundland Transferred To The Services Of The Government Of Canada At The Date Of Union", a bill, "An Act To Amend The Increase Of Pensions Act:', a bill, "An Act To Amend The Liquor Control Act." And on behalf of my colleague the hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy, a bill, "An Act To Clarify The Nature Of A Payment Made In 1974 To Certain Mining Companies", a bill, "An Act To Amend The Quarry Materials ACt", a bill, "An Act Respecting The Newfoundland And Labrador Hydro Act, 1975","The Electrical Power Control Act", "The Newfoundland And Labrador(Loan And Guarantee Limitation) Act, 1975", "The Newfoundland And Labrador Rural Electricity Act",; and "The Britt sh Newfoundland Corporation.

L imited(Lower Churchill) River Lease Act 1967-1966".

.. . June 15, 1978 Tape 4441 EC - l ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN :1;;.. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. MR. HICKHAN: I have but one. The hon. the member for LaPoile (Hr. Neary) on May 31st asked a question No. lOS of me and he asked for a statement of the number of cases where charges were laid in the calendar years 1972 to 1977 inclusive where no con~ictions resulted from the actio~ in ·the three ~ourts.

That data is not kept by the department as such, and to give an example as to why, over 20,000 charges were laid last year by the RCMP under the code and thousands are laid for breaches of provincial statutes, so I am sorry, I cannot provide the answer asked by the hon. gentleman. }!R. SPEAKER: Opposition. HR. W. ROWE: ORAL QUESTIONS The hon. the Leader of the Mr. Speaker, I am going to ask ~ question of the Minister of Forestry; I would like to ask the Minister of Public ~orks what is he trying to turn the House into? Is it a place to hang meat or.what?

Yesterday when it was 26 degrees, Sir, we nearly perished with the heat and today when it is 10 degrees outside he has the air conditioning on. But my question is not for him, Sir, my question is for the Minister of Forestry. Late last night, Mr. Speaker, I got a 'phone call from a lady who is the President of the 4-H Club .in Newfoundland and sh·e told me that she had 600 children under her charge who were going to go camping in North Pond in the Gambo area in a short t~me, and she wondered whether sh~ should give the children their money back and tell them not to go camping or whether she sh~uld

June 15, 1978 Tape 4441 PK - 2 Mr. W. Rowe: continue with their plans to go camping. She said she inclined towards telling them that the camping trip was off because this area,r undersand,is within the spray area. Now what I want to ask the Minister of Forestry and the Minister of Health and the Minister of the Environment is when I call back this lady, this afternoon or tonight as I promised to do, what should I tell her? SOME'HON: MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. l~. RmtE: Should I tell her - she tried to get a hold of the minister, Mr. Speaker, to no avail.

MR: NEARY: And the member, by the way, she tried to get a hold of the member. MR: w: ROviE: And the member, she .did get a hold of the member. She did get a hold of the member but she said - .MR. NEARY: Oh,she did, eh? MR: w: ROWE: ~ I will not say what she said, Mr. Speaker, because it was not rude or nasty or anything like that, but she did not get much satisfaction. But she does want to know what she should tell the children. Should she tell the children not to go camping under·the 4-H Club? SOME . HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. W. ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, I do ·wish the question could be treated with some seriousness, and we would not see laughing and galoot-like behaviour across the House, Sir, about a serious matter which is causing this woman great anxiety and uneasiness,and the parents. I would like to ask the Minister of Forestry what is the answer to that question? Should children go camping in that area when the likelihood · is that there is going to be a spray programme during the period of time or should they not? What is the answer? ·MR .. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. MR. MAYNARD: Mr.

Speaker, we have had correspondence from the group in question, and as I understand it the camping starts somewhere around· the first week in July. They cannot start the first week in June because they are still in school at that time. That

. ·• .•. June 15 1 1978 Tape 4441 Pk - 3 Mr~ Maynard: being the case,in all likelihood the spraying programme will be over by that time. So there is certainly no reason that we know of :"hY:the children should not go camping. And certainly, you know, we have no intentions, as we have said before, we have buffer zones around park areas, and I would assume that they are in a location that is fairly well identified. And we have no intentions if they are camping at the time of the spray programme of causing any concern to the people in question.

But it is my understanding that the spray programme in all likelihood will be over before the camping starts. "MR~ NEARY: MR. W. ROI~E: . MR. SPEAKER: MR. W. ROWE: would be afaird to have my young fellow - A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. Well. what is the hon. minister saying? Is he saying that because the spray programme in all likelihood 11ill be over by the time these camping trips are planned, therefore, it is all right to go camping? And that if not - MR. NEARY: How about if it is not over? MR. \ol.

ROWE: If it is not over, Sir, that it is not all right to go camping in these·a~eas? . What ~xactly is he saying, Sir? Because the answer to this question is as inconsistent and as confusing as all other public statements which have been made. Should they go camping if there is a likelihood of the spray programme going on at the time? The 26th. of June,my hon. friend has said , and I believe that is the date that this camping trip will take place - MR:. NEJI.RY: Yes,that is right. MR. w; ROWE: -for 600 children. Should they go camping ·if the spray programme is not over -

June 15,1978 MR. W.ROio/E: Tape No, 4442 AH-1 at that time, if there is a risk that the spray may in fact land on the camp either by direct discharge or by way of wind drift, Mr. Speaker? 1-/hat is the answer to the question? ~JR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. }JR. }!AYNARD: Mr. Speaker, there is no reason in the world why anyone should not go camping because of the spray programme at any time. What I am saying is that if they are concerned about being in the woods at the time that the spray program is going on,then we will take note of that fact if the spray is going on at the time.

But it is my understanding that the spray prog~amme will in all likelihood be over at the time. But in any case, there is evidence of a group on the West coast last year, a Girl Guide troop that were in the spray area when the spray planes went over,and there is no evidence of even the·remotest kind of illness from the fact that they were in the area. We had people in the spray areas :ast year and we will have them there this year. Our technicians are there out in the woods, the environmental people will be in the actual area while it ic being sprayed.

They were there last year and they have no evidence of any sickness of any kind, there is no evidence from any health reports or environmental reports that it would cause.any damage. But as I say,if they are concerned about it and if the camp is identified-and if the spray programme happens to be going on at the time,then we will take note of it in order not to cause them any concern. There is no reason why they should be concerned but we certainly will not try to cause them any concern: MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary by the original questioner. MR.W.ROWE: In trying to zero in on what the minister is saying, Mr.

Speaker, what he is saying is ti1at they will try not to spray on the camps as far as I can understand. What if there is a group of children out in the woods somewhere MR. NEARY: :-JR. W. ROWE : On a hike. - and the hon. minister should know or probably does know or anybody who is involved with air search and rescue knows how difficult it is to see anyone from an aircraft in the woods, it is very difficult. As a matter of fact it is almost luck to be able to see

.. June 15,1978 Tape No. 4442 AH-2 HR.W ,ROIVE: anybody if you are looking for them. Mr. Speaker, if there are a group of children or a group of adults for that matter- I do not want to over-dramatize the situation-but if a group of people are hiking in the woods away from the buffer zone,what safeguards if any are going to be taken to make sure that the spray is not going to be sprayed on people like that? Are there any safeguards, number one, llr. Speaker?

And if the spray is discharged on people in the woods once or twice or several times, what kind of reaearch is being done to show what effect it might have in the long-term on people who might have the spray discharged on them or sprayed on them once or twice or three or four times? what kind I of research isknown about the long-term effects, Sir? First of all, the safeguards against that kind of discharge to start off with and, secondly,what research ~o show what effects it might have in the long- term on those people?

In other words how long has the research been going on and over what period of time with matacil to show what long- ter.u effects there might be? NR. SPEAKER: Hon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. MR.t·!AYNARD: Hr.

Speaker, the precautions that are taken so that we try not to have any spray,because people are nervous about it,land on anyone either travelling through the woods or on the highways or whatever, with each spray aircraft there is a spotter plane with a· forestry technician aboard who flies very low ahead of any spray plane and the· job of the spotter plane is to give instruetions to the spraying aircraft.

If the persons aboard the spotter plan spot anyone in the woods, and I am sure that a troop of one hundred or fifty or sixty people or whatever is going to be fairly easy to see, the spray plane is given specific directions to turn off its nozzles or turn the~.:; on.· If anyone is spotted they--are given specific directions to turn off their nozzles. If there is any traffic on a highway when they are passing over they turn the I".ozzles back on after they pass the highway. With the amount of study that has been done into the aminocarb that we are using this year and given to us·by Dr.

Routon who is chief of the pesticides control branch with the Department of Argiculture, Canada.

• - : .. · -, ·June 15, 1978 Tape ~io. 4443 .r.r - 1 1·'R. ~1AYUAPJ): TI1e reports, ~s I understand it, are all available. A copy of the bibiolography outlining the reports •.vas supplied to some doctors in Gander a fe" days ago and the depth of the study on ,...aricus impacts on the environment and people - not on people obviously because they do not test che~icals en peoplej they test them on laborator; animals and translate that into the possible factors of the h~4n health. There has been thirty-e:!.ght studies done on the environnental in:pact on fish, birds ~~d ma~als.

There has been seventy-five chemical studies regarding the persistence in the forest environment; for exarnple,soil, water and spruce spoilage. There has been fifty-three toxicology studies done regarding the possible affect on mammals and then translated into the human factor. These studies have been going on for 1 the last t;.;elve years by the Federal agencies who are responsible for regulating pesticides in Canada and the formulation that is being used by us is approved by the Federal agencies as being safe for spraying.

If anyone happens to be in the forest at the time,whether they are children or adults· or 1o7hate,rer,it has been proven by these studies that there uill not be any effect on these people. ~. FLIGHT: 'lR. SPEAI'..E?,: ~. FLIGHT: ~lr. Speaker,· a supplementary. A supplementary, the hon. me!:lber for l·7indsor-Buchans·. ·11r. Speaker,.my supplementary is to the minister Hith re?,ards to the spray programme.

Would the minister care to clear up for the Hou:;e the inconsistency that was alluded to during the· supporting of the petition a .little earlier and that is that the ninister has indicated to the general public and through press releases that sprayine ~:ill not tal~e ?~lace in tdnd speeds over ten rrlles an hour,yet Conair, the company contracted to ·do the spray progra=e,have indicated that they can 11nd tvill and may spray in uinds up to tl·relve miles an hour and that is O'rer one hundred per cent difference? to clear tip that inconsistency? ~·'R •.

SPEAKER: The her.. mini~ter. '·7ould the minister attempt MR. M.AYJ'1AR!:': i~r. Speal:er, I heard rumours that so!:le pee? le from Conair s?.id that they ,.~ould spray up ~o tc·Jel'IC to fourteen :niles per

June 15, 1978 Tape No. 4443 JM- 2 MR. MAYNARD: hour. I immediately had contact made with the Conair people and paased along instructions that they were operating for us . and not for themselves and they would follow the regulations or there would not be ·a programme go on. Now the regulations are,and I do not have the document here with me but I will have it tomorrow morning to table.

They are not regulations as such but they are guidelines for spraying that are set out by the Federal authorities,and the wind speed factor set out by the Federal authorities is for a maximum .ground speed of zero to five to Six miles an hour: Now the aloft speed 1.and I am not sure .what that means in aeronautical terms or in distance I above the ground,goes from zero to ten. I assume that that applies to sudden gusts of wind or whatever.

But the ground speed is set out as a maximum of five to six miles an hour and the people in charge of the Conair planes have been told very specifically and very definitively that they are not under any conditions to go outside of those regulations. MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. member for Windsor-Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr.

Speaker, the spray programme will start now very shortly in the next two·or three days and we assume that the Department of Environment will have people there monitoring the spray programme as well as representatives of· the Department of Forestry.

Will the people who are opposing the spray programme or.people who want to determine whether or not .the regulations are carried out· to their satisfaction, the various groups who have petitioned or who have become organized for the·purpose of opposing the spray programme and who obviously have a great deal of interest, will they be permitted on site to monitor and to be present with the spray programme going on?

As a· matter of fact,! am. the forestry spokesman at this stage until the hon.·Leader of the Opposition decides· otherwise~ Would the minister ··give me permission, for instance,to fly with Conair when this spray programme is taking place so that I can· see myself and for the people whom I represent that the regulations that he has indicated will be strictly adhered to in this "House has indeed been.adhered to?

• June 15, 1978 Tape No. 4444 P.T-1 :'R. SPEt.KE!': Ron. ~·:inister. If the hon. gentleman wants to observe the spraying programme at some point in time throughout the progr~e period, t~.en I am sure that He could arrange for him to go aboard one of the spotter planes, for instance, which is - I'R. T. HICKEY: Put him in ~rith the lobsters. Put him in t~ith the lobsters in a tJater bomber. SOl!E RON. ~!D~REr.S : 0h, oh! l~. E. HAYNARD: Hell, if he is afraid of the chemical he can go aboard the spotter plane and there are no chemicals aboard that one.

Not that I am trying to save him for the future or anything like that, but we can certainly arrange that, If the gentleman wants to go on a flight, no problem. I think the question ••as related to ,.,ho is going to enforce the regulations, t••ell - l'P. G. fLIGHT: (Inaudrble) groups that want to be in on those flights. l!ll..

E. ~'AYNAPD: I have not had a request from any groups that they •·rant observers and obviously not a lot of people could be accommodated because the spotter plane would take one or tt-to people other than the pilot; but if any group t•ants to send an observer to the operation then I vould try in every possible >Jay to accommodate them on the spotter planes Hhile the operation was being carried out. ,..,. J.· ... F. ~'!UTE: Hon. ~linister. SPEAKER: lfuich hon. gentlemen are asking for supplementaries? final supplementary, the hon. gen'tleman from Lewisporte. !'r.

Speaker,· my supplementary is to the l'inister of ::'orestry and Agriculture. I ~>muld like to know - I .,,ill put i~ in t~>ro· parts - ~>rhether or not· any studies have been· done hy his Department, or are being done by h:f.s Department, concerning what I mentioned on the petition,· the pheromone experiments that are going on in Net¥ Brunswick, •.<hether or not he ·is looking into th:!.s here in Nev•foundland; and also,

.. June 15, 1978 Tape No. !.444 F'.T-2 :-'F.. F. !-!RITE: is there a

schedule laid out for the spray programme, and will the various areas to be sprayed be announced beforehand, and Hhen is the first spray supposed to take place. I tr.ean, has the srray programme already missed the start-up because_ of !veather conditions? I understand that it was supposed to start three or four days ago, last Sunday. Is this so, and ~7hen it is supposed to start, ~'r. Speaker? lV' • SPEAI<Ell: ·Han. Hinister. :m.. E. ){ATI!ARD: The first part of the question, ;1r.

Speaker, the ·research is going on into the theromones and the other bacteriological research that is going on is, of course, being co··ordina ted now by the Eastern Spruce Budworm Council which takes in the five eastern provinces and the State of !-1aine, of tvhich my deputy minister is chairman.

The anst-rer to the question as to whether my Department is specifically into the research business on that particular field is, 'no', but the research that is going on in all the universities now and the Federal Governments, both ti.S. and Canada, is being co-ordinated by the Council and, of course, everything is made available to us. He know that there-are a couple of very real possibilities on the horizon now that may be operational in the· next year or so.

One of them we used in a small quantity last year, t;hich is a BT, a bacteriological control, but the dispensing equipment has not been ··.Jorked out, on the mechanical details at this point· in time. However, that may be corrected by next year. As tci the· timing of the spray, it is very difHcult to pinpoint an exact day as to when the spraying will go ahead. · llo•.;ever, it is generally assumed that the bud..,orm will be at the development stage early next week when the first application of insecticides could be applied.

That •·iill depend upon the reports from the field; our field people are out no•• ·studying the insect, and they t•ill send back reports and determine !-,hen a block is opened up or appropriate for spraying. :rot• the exact day that the spraying go_es ahead depends, of course, on the ''eat her conditions. A block may very ~!ell he opened up for ttco or three

... June 15, 1978 Tape :;o. t.t.t.t. F.T-3 days before you get the proper wind factors, the proper cloud cover, or lack of clouc'. cover, or whatever, in order to actually spray, but these announcereents will be made as soon as a block is opened up. Tt,e announcel'\ents tdll be made on radio that there is a possibility then from ·that day on, or from the next day on, that spraying •,Till be carried out. Is that the total answer? YR. F. tmiTE: Supplementary, Yr. Speal-:er. ~·~..

SPEAKER: I had indicated· that it t<ould be the final supplementary so I think I have to recognize an hen. member on a ne~~ -sul:-ject now. The hen. member for LaPoile follotved by the hen. gentlem•m from Port au Port and Baie \'erte-!fuite Bay. 1-'P. S. NI:APY: J have a couple of questions, :~. Speaker, for the V:l.nister of Trc>.nsportation and Communications. that have to do tvith the. future_ operations of Eastern Provincial Airways in this Province.

Vy understanding, Sir, is that there is some kind of an insidious schel'\e, plan, now in effect to cut down the operations of Eastern Provincial Af.rtv?.ys ~-n this :>rovince to the bare essentials, . ' .. ~··. J !

June 15, 1978 Tape l\o. 4445 RT-1 " ~~. S. NEARY : to a skeleton cret;. And if the hen. :·'inister of Transportation cannot ans~;er my questions, perhaps the Government's representative on the Board of Directors, the "!inister of Health, the !!\ember for Gander (l·!r. Collins), can answer - AN HON. 1-':EVBER: No. :~1' . S • llEARY : Yes, sir. The hen. gentleman is a director of Eastern Provincial Airways, or ·~as up to a year ago. MR. DOODY: Where do you get your news? ~'P.. S. NF.APY: \"ell, maybe.. Pell t·'hoever.

I do not knm·r ~rho repreEents the Government now, but whoever represents the Government !:lay be they can ansto~er the question, . Sir. It is my understanding, Hr. Speaker, that as a result of the establishment of the training centre in Halifax that EPA are nm·r in the process of shutting det·rn, or moving out, a lot of their cret;s, ·flight attendants, ground cretvs and maintenance creHs to Halifax.

Pould the l'in:l.ster of Transportation and Communications tell the House how r.:uch he knows about this, if he' knovr anything about it, hot• much they are going to shut down, hot• much of the operation is going to be left fn Netvfoundland, hm.r much of it is going to be transferred to Halifax to this centre that was financed by DREE and the Government of Nova Scotia that this Province gave up .by default? YR. ~PEAKEP: Hen. Minister ·of Transportation and Communications. N".. F. DOODY : :-:r. Speaker, .there Hns a series of. questions there, I tdll try to remember them and reply to them as best I can.

The .first item for Clarification purposes and for ·the sake of the record ·is that the hen. r·anister of Health, the member from Gander, is not one·of the directors of· EPA; he certainly has not been for some time~ The two Government directors on EPA are and I stand· to be cor=ccted on this .:.·the !leputy ~inister of Finance and the Deputy ~:inister of Industrial Development, I think they are the two government appointed directors.

.. I ,I June 15, 1978 Tape No. 4445 PT-2 As to an insidious plot, it sounds pretty dramatic but it is not very accurate. I have t.ad occasion to discuss the same rumours <<ith some of the senior management people of EPA and they consistently deny any intent, or any desire, to move their operations out of Gander. It :!.s a matter of grave concern to the Government of Newfoundland and I think we have demonstrated our faith in the airport to~m of Gander by supplying assistance in the funding of the facility that EPA now use in Gander.

It would appear that the arrangement· is a permanent one and I am sure that such a facility 10ould not have been put in place if the company did no't have every intention of so remaining. I know that a facility has. been erected in Halifax. I kno"W that it is nOl-' part of the operation of EPA. I knm• that this 1vas jointly funded by the Government of :leva Scotia who had more success in persuadi~g the Government of Canada to assist them in putting up that structure. HR. S. NEARY: You made no effort at all. ~·'P . \oT.

DOODY: This particular Province made a great deal of effort - YP. • S • NEARY : You made no ;;.one. No effort at all. YP • !•!. DOODY: •tO obtain DREE funding - ~P... SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! lffi. H. DOODY: - and I can. assure, Hr. Speaker, I can assure you and this hon. House that this Province made a great deal of effort to obtain DREE funding. Our efforts were made subsequent to the deal that olova Scotia obtained from the Government of Canada and we were refused point blank. ~ .. ~ .. s. NEA?.Y: Not true. :·'R. lo'. no'onY: And now the hon. mem~er opposite says that this is not true.

I undertake that it is true and I assure this House that it is true and I can ·demonstrate that it is true. Now the hon. member opposite, I do not know what he wants to do about all that sort 'of thing. He can ·sl.t there and squawk and say that it is not true, but I can assure the Fouse that this is ·.rrong. It is very true. The Government of

'·" \ .;une 15, 1978 Tape lie. 4445 P.T-3 l··:R • lo!. DOODY : Newfoundland tvere stuck ~~ith the full bill for the job in Cancer

whereas the Government ·of Nova Scotia·were able to persuade their colleagues in l:ttawa to jointly fund the facility. in :1alifax. Despite .that sort of thing, Sir, the Government of Newfoundland are still dedicated to retaining that vital industry and that vital hub of communications here in this Province.

It had been originally a ~;ewfoundland facility, a Newfoundland airline, and despite the efforts and activities by the Government of Canada and/or the Government of Nova Scotia to lure that facility away from this Province, I can assure you,- Sir, that this Government will do everything that it possibly can to see that that does not happen. SOYE HON. ~!E}ffiERS : ~!R. SPEAKER: }!R. S. NEARY: Hear, hear! Supplementary. Ur.

Speaker, I wish.to ask the hen. member one or two ·supplementaries~ First of all, I would like for the hen. gentleman to tell ce how many captains and first officers have already been lured away from this Province, as my hen. friend says, by the Government of Canada, which has nothing

... June 15, 1978 Tape No. 4446 JM- 1 MR. NEARY: at all to do with it, Sir. It is a Newfoundland airline. It is an insidious plot on the part of the operations manager - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. gentleman was recognized to pose a supplementary question but not to get into a debate on the matter. MR. NEARY: No, Sir, I claim it is an insidious plot on. the part of the operations manager to get this Newfoundland airline to get the balance of power over in Nova Scotia.It has nothing to do with ·the Government of Canada, Sir, absolutely nothing.

Can the minister tell us how many captains and first officers have already been transferred and what the effect will be on the economy of this Province? How many flight attendents have been transferred to Halifax? How many ground crew have been transferred to Halifax and how many of the maintenance staff have already been transferred or lured. ,as the bon. gentleman says,right under his uose to the new operations that they h8ve opened over in•Halifax; over in Nova Scotia? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. DOODY: Mr.

Speaker, the first thing I would .like to.comment on is the fact that despite the protestations to the contrary by the member who asks a question,! feel reasonably certain that there is no insidious plot. However,since the hon. gentleman insists that it is an insidious plot and since he is obviously far more expert on that sort of. operation than I with his years of experience in the caucus opposite that I will defer. to his knowledge and concede the point . .

I will ask him to help me to determine exactly the extent of this particular plot, who are the perpetrators and how we can possibly circumvent. any adverse affects. on our particular responsibility to the people of this Province. Now how many captains, how many first officers, - MR. NEARY: (Inaudible) I will gladly do it. ·MR. SPEAKER: interrupt. MR. DOODY:· Order, please!. The hon. gentleman should not ·Thank you, Sit. How many captains, how many first officers, how many flight ·attendents and how many maintenance people are now

,. June 15, 1978 Tape No. 4446 JM - 2 MR. DOODY: stationed in or have been lured away into Halifax from Gander, To the best of my knowledge~my information was that there were few if any. However I will be most happy to make inquiries. Certainly this is an area that government is very concerned about and if there is any documented proof or any evidence to indicate that this is indeed going on I would be most happy to have access to it so I can try to chaae_it down because it is certainly not something that this government wants to be part of nor do we want to see it happen.

It is a far, far too important part of our economy and our way of life. MR. NEARY: A final supplement_ary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Final supplementary. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I am glad now that I finally got the gentieman interested enough that the hon. gentleman and his colleagues may become concerned about this situation.

I want the assurance of the hon. gentleman that he can give this House the assurance that the balance of power as far as this Newfoundland airline is concerned~ which the hon. gentleman referred· to as an industry, that the balance of power will remain in this Province and not be moved over to Nova Scotia because it was the taxpayers as the hon. gentleman knows of this Province who financed that airline~ $12 million I believe of taxpayers money have gone into that airline - that the balance of power will remain in this Province and that the hon. gentleman will undertake to find out how many people so far have been transferred under this insidious plot that I referred to to Halifax, Nova Scotia.

Will the minister assure the House that he will take every effort and take every step to stop any more·transfers and that Newfoundland will just not become a station stop for EPA, that they will have station ·stops like Air Canada,just the bare essentials, skeleton crews in this Pro_vince? Will the minister guarantE-e the House that the hon. gentleman would undertake to ·see that .this does not happen to Newfoundland's airline? . MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, as I have already indicated we feel s

June 15, 1978 Tape 4447 PK - 1 Mr. Doody: It always has been a very important part of this Province and I would hope, Sir, ~despite the efforts of others to get that facility away from us, we will ·be successful in maintaining it here in the Province, and I would hope that all hon .. members of this House will do everything they can to assist us in that· resolve. ·soME.HON~ MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

SPEAKER: I stated that I would recoqnize the hon. the member for Port au Port next. '·fhen I reco~ni zed .~the hon. gentleman ,, for LaPoil_e I ."said,sollowed by the hon. gentlemen for Port au Port and Baie Verte-White Bay:• So the hon. gentleman for Baie Verte-White Bay. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Health.

It has come to my attention that during the· move from the old General Hospital to the Health Sciences Complex that a large amount of the equipment apparently was mislaid or stolen, I suppose, is the proper word,from the Health Sciences Complex, like, for example, those large refrigeration units and so on. I wonder if the minister could tell the House what is· missing and what was stolen, and how much equipment is· missing in the move into the Health Sciences Complex? MR. SPEAKER: 'MR; H.COLUNS: The hon. the Minister of Health. Mr.

Speaker, a similar matter was brought to my attention,probably the same matter to which the hon. the member alludes, only this morning. I really cannot give an answer now, but I will certainly give the answer to the House as soon as I get some information on it. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR: HICKMAN: Motion 10. Motion, the hon. the Minister of Justice to introduce a bill, "An Act To Provide For Change Of Name", carried. (Bill No. 64}. On motion , Bill No. 64, read a first time ordered read a second time on tomorrow . . MR: HICKMAN: Motion 11. Motion, the hon.

Minister of Labour and Manpower to intr-oduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Newfoundland Teacher (Collective Bargaining)_ Act, 1973", carried (Bill No. 66}_.

June 15, 1978 Tape 4447 PK ~ 2 On motion, Bill No. 66, read a first time ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. HICKMAN: Motion 1. On Motion that the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole to consider a certain Resolution, ~r. Speaker left the Chair. COMMITIEE OF THE !~HOLE MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! RESOLUTION That it is expedient to bring in a ·measure further to amend the Income Tax Act. MR. CHAIRMAN: Does the resolution carry? The hon. the Minister of Finance. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Chairman, if I may have just a couple of words on this bill. There are really only two matters the bill itself that may or may not require some explanation.

Section 0), r~r. Chairman,of the bill ,the principle embodied in in Section (1) is an amendment that is necessary in orrl.f'r for the Province to avail of the proposal that was contained in the Budget of the hon. the Minister of Finance of Canada when the Budget Speech came down recently. Hon. gentlemen will recall that at that time it was indicated by the hon. Mr. Jean Chretien, the Minister of Finance of Canada that 1n the Atlantic Provinces for a period of six months ending October 7, 1978 with the concurrence of the Provinces there would be a reduction of 3 per cent in Retail Sales Tax.

Now the formula to accomplish that is a some~1hat complicated formula,The, amount of money that is due this Province the estimated amount due this Province during that period is approximately $24 million, I had the figure here a minute ago, and

• ... ~- June 15,1978 1:-iR. HICKL'W~: Tape No. 4448 AH-1 if that is not so I will correct it. l:o,$14 million, I am sorry. This will ~ot be paid by the Government of Canada issuing a cheque to the Province of Newfoundland for $14 million! '<mat they are doing is assigning for a six month period under these complicated formula that no one understands but they always seem to deliver the goods 1 the first $100, extra $100 of tax points that Newfoundland has, they transfer this · to the Province~ !his will yield, it is estimated,$14 million.

The actual loss to the Province, if loss is the word, the actual amount that the Province would have received by way of Retail Sales Tax if it had continued at eleven per cent from March 17th to October 7th,is $24 million. The agreement is that the first $100 worth of tax points will be assigned to the Province and if that does not yield $Z4 million,which is the amount that we loose by reducing our Retail Sales Tax to eight per cent~they will make up the balance in cash.

The calculation to the nearest million is that the first $100 of income tax will yield the Province during that six month period $14 million and that ·there will be a direct cash payment by the Government of canada to the Province of Newfoundland of $10 million. Pardon~ MR.NEARY: One - thirtieth? HR. HICI<l-'.A.L'i: That is the income tax provision. See,it is done by way of the assignment. MR.NEARY: r see. NR.HICKM&'i:

Section 1 of the bill relates to the federal government's .offer of last April to stimulate the economy by compensating the provinces t"or reductions in their Retail Sales Tax rates for a period of,say,six months. This section.is designed and will increase the amount of provincial personal income .tax payable by an individual by the amount equal to the reduction of the federal personal·income tax payable. In other words,a Newfoundlander will not pay ariy more income tax but more of it will be assigned to us by taking it away from what the government of Canada would have retained.

Now I am sure that is as clear as mud but that is what would be ·accomplished es a result of that desirable piece of legislation.

.. • June 15,1978 MR. HICKl11u'l: the next

section - MR,J ,NOLAN: HR. HICKMA...'I: MR,J, NOLAl'l: MR. HICKHAN: that we do aot lose. AN HON . MEMBER: NR. UICKMAN: Tape No. 4448 AH-2 Does the hon. gentleman~before I move on to Do we lose money or do we not loose money? Let me go back over it again. Do we get the money or do we not? We do not lose but this is·the foroula to insure They shift the money But we are not shifting it by way of a cheque for $24 million. It is an assignment of personal income tax points for six months.and that gives us $14 million of it.

Calculated now,there is a deficit of $10 million which the Goverrunent of Canada will issue us a cheque for over that period, SOHE HON, NEHBERS : Oh, oh! MR. HICKl11u'l: Our cash flow will not be improved at all, it will be maintained as it was estimated at the time the budget of this Province came down, AN HON, MENBER: l-lR, HI CKl-!Al.'l : What about the individual?

There is no increase to the individual at all in his or her income tax, that is in Newfoundland, but obviously there will be during that six month period a reduction of three per cent_on the Retail Sales Tax on the goods that are covered under this act which by and large are non-consumables, The other part, Mr. Chairman,

Section 2 nf the act -is the principle that was enunciated in the Budget· Speech brought -down in this legislature on ~~rch 17th with respect to government strategy with a view to helping small enterprise aud larger companies suffering from low profit levels as a result of the current economic situation in an attempt to-stimulate the economy. This

section provides for a reduction in the provincial income tax rate from fourteen per-cent to twelve per ·cent for those companies who qualify under

Section 125 of the Federal Inconle ·Tax Act. In o