Manitoba Hansard — 27 April 2000 (Sitting 17A, 37th Legislature, 1st Session)

37-1-17a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

� � First Session- Thirty-Seventh Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. L No. 17 A- 10 a.m., Thursday, April27, 2000 ISSN 0542-5492

Member AGLUGUB. Cris ALLAN, Nancy ASHTON, Steve, Hon. ASPER, Linda BARREIT, Becky, Hon. CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. CUMMINGS, Glen DACQUA Y, Louise DERKACH, Leonard DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary, Hon. DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry FAURSCHOU, David FILMON. Gary FRIESEN, Jean, Hon. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. GILLESHAMMER, Harold HEL WER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. LAURENDEAU, Marcel LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. LOEWEN, John MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. MAGUIRE, Larry MALOWAY,Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon.

MITCHELSON, Bonnie NEVAKSHONOFF. Tom PENNER, Jack PENNER, Jim PITURA, Frank PRAZNIK. Darren REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. ROCAN, Denis RONDEAU, Jim SALE, Tim. Hon. SANTOS, Conrad SCHELLENBERG, Harry SCHULER, Ron SELINGER, Greg, Hon. SMITH, Joy SMITH, Scott STEFANSON, Eric STRUTHERS, Stan TWEED, Mervin WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Seventh Legislature Constituency The Maples St. Vital Thompson Riel Inkster Brandon East Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Russell Selkirk Concordia Charleswood Pembina Lakeside Ponage Ia Prairie Tuxedo Wolseley River Heights Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon St. James The Pas St. Norbert La Verendrye Fort Whyte St. Johns Arthur-Virden Elmwood Burrows Lord Robens Minto River East Interlake Emerson Steinbach Morris Lac du Bonnet Transcona Southdale Rupertsland Carman Assiniboia Fort Rouge Wellington Rossmere Springfield St. Boniface Fort Garry Brandon West Kirkfield Park Dauphin-Roblin Turtle Mountain Swan River Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

N.D.P P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P.

631 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, April 27, 2000 The House met at 10 a.m. PRAYERS Committee Changes Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, I want to make some committee changes. I move, seconded by the Member fo r Brandon West (Mr. Smith), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Law Amendments be amended as fo ll ows: Rie l (Ms. Asper) fo r The Map les (Mr. Ag lugub); Inkster (Ms. Ba rrett) fo r Thompson (Mr. Ashton). Motion agreed to. Mr. Dewar: I move, seconded by the Member fo r Brandon West (Mr.

Smith), tha t the composition of the Standing Committee on Ru les of the House be amended as fo ll ows: We ll ington (Mr . Santos) for Inter lake (Mr. Nevakshonof f); Rossmere (Mr . Sche ll enberg) fo r Transcona (Mr. Reid). Motion agreed to. Mr. Dewar: I move , seconded by the Member fo r Br andon West (Mr. Smith), that the com position of the Stand ing Committee on Public Accounts be amended as fo ll ows: We llin gton (Mr. Santos) fo r Fort Rouge (Mr . Sa le). Motion agreed to. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr.

Spea ker, wou l d you pl ease ca ll debate on second reading of Bill 5. DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS Bill 5-The Wildlife Amendment Act Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the Honourab l e Minister of Conser vation (Mr. Lath l in), Bill 5, The Wild life Amendment Act (Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la conser vation de la fa une ), standing in the name of the Hono urab l e Member for Lakeside (Mr. Enns). Some Honourable Members: Stand. Mr. Speaker: Stand? Is there le ave fo r the bill to remain standing in the name of the Honourab l e Member fo r Lakeside? [Agreed] Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Just to cl arify, Mr. Speaker, there are, I understand, individual s on this side that wish to speak to it, and we are prepared to al low the deba te to remain standing in the name of the honourab l e member. Mr. Speaker: Agreed?

The bill will remain standing in the name of the Honourab le Member fo r Lakeside? [Agreed] Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin-Roblin): It is a pl easure today to stand and speak on Bill 5, The Wild life Amendment Act. I want to begin by congratu lating the Minister of Conservation (Mr. Lath l in) for bringing this le gislation fo rward for our consideration here in the Legis lature this morning. The le gislation, which is enab ling le gisl ation , will be fo ll owed by public con sultation, as the Minister pointed out yesterday .

I th ink that it is very important fo r us to recognize that, emphasize the fa ct that the pub lic will be consu l ted thorough l y on this issue. I want to point out that specifica ll y what The Wild life Amendment Act dea l s with is penned hunting or canned hunting. A number of diffe rent terms have been used to describe this disgusting practice that is present in a number of jurisdictions in North America which as far as I am concerned shoul d not be present in the jurisdiction of the province of Manitoba.

This is a topic which did produce some controversy , some debate, discussion, previous to the la st el ection. I am sure if members opposite have consu lted with Hansard fr om

632 LEG ISLAT IVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 27, 2000 question periods gone by, they will remember the terms that I used in terms of des cribing penned hunting, and they were not very fl att ering. It is definitely not a conc ept whic h I agree with, so you can determine that I believe that the legis lation is good legisla tion to ban or outlaw this pra ctice. The pra ctice , I think, is disgusting. The pra ctice of releasing an animal into an en closed pen, into an en closed par c el of land and then allowing a "hunter" to tra c k down this animal and shoot it, I believe, should not be allowed in Manitoba.

It does not matter to me if you def ine the animal as native to Manitoba or exoti c. You can put whatever term you like on that animal ; I still say that it is absolutely wrong to condu c t suc h a pra c tice in this provin ce. Now, you will hear a lot of arguments fr om differen t people of why we should be going ahead with this. You will hear the ar gument that it is value-added, that we are adding value to a pra c tice already established in Manitoba , and why not? Why should we not get as mu c h as we can fr om wildli f e in this provin ce?

Why should we not be capturing wild animals, releasing them into pens and then shooting them if there are people out there willi ng to pay good money for that? We ll, Mr. Spe aker, I just do not ac ce pt that argument. I do not think it is right for us to take hostage wild animals, en close them for anything, let alone penned hunts. It was my position that the pra ctic e of capturing elk, tha t the previous government began just over four years ago , I believe that pra c ti ce to be wrong. It is my absolute convi ction that wild animals should be left in the wild.

To take a wild animal, en close it and shoot it for money is even worse than just simply en closing an animal. The one thing that I want to make absolutely clear is that this legisla tion being brought forward by our minister does not have grave consequen ces for the el k-ran ching industry that has been se t up by the previous government, be cause I have been appr oa ched by people whose argument it is that somehow this legisla tion, spe cifi cally the changing of the definition of wildli fe, is somehow going to harm tha t industry . Mr. Speaker, that is not the intent of this legisla tion.

It is not the intent of this legisla tion and any attempt to misconstrue the intent of this legisla tion would not be an honest appr oa c h by anyone who is conc erned with Bill 5, would not be an honest approa c h by anyone who wants to partake in the discussion of The Wildli f e Amendment Act.

As we pointed out be fore , there will be many opportunities to partake in a discussion of the pros and the cons and the impa c t of this legis lation, be cause our Minister has, in fa ct, stated that the publi c will be consulted, that people who want to have a chan ce to speak towards this legisla tion will certai nly have their chan ce to do that in the up coming weeks and months. * (10: 10) Mr. Sp eaker, my thinking on this bill is guided by one prin ciple , a prin ciple that I think is very impor tant. Tha t prin ciple is that Manitoba ' s public resour ces are there for all Manitobans.

Not what we have seen fr om the pr evious governmen t where they believed it was okay to priva tize parts of our natural resour ces for the en joyment and for the benefit of the very fe w, whic h is exa c tly the appr oa c h that the former government took. That appr oa c h really bothered me , and I think it bo thered a lo t of Manitobans. That former government during the ele ction that took pla c e last fall ac tually changed its position under the pressure of groups of Manitobans who were conc erned about this legisla tion and also just general citizens of the provin c e of Manitoba.

That government changed its position, fl ip flopped in the middle of the last ele ction purely for crass politic al purposes. They could not take the pressure of taking a stand and de fending it. They had to change in the middle of that last ele ction. You know, Mr. Speaker , you could take the approa c h that the government finally saw the light. In a positive, upbeat, optimisti c moment, I thought, well, that is good. They have final ly seen that penned hunting is, in fa ct, a disgusting conc ept. It is a disgusting pra c tice , and it should be outlawed in Manitoba.

Well, I think that is now the position of the former government. I think the members in Opposition have now

Apr il 27, 2000 LEG ISLAT IVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 633 adopted the corre c t position on this. So , I am going to assume that the former government is being honest today , was being honest ba c k in the ele ction and has , in fa ct, taken the position that penned hunting should be disallowed , should be banned in this pro vin ce. I congratulate the members opposite for taking that stan d. I know that it is hard sometimes to cl imb down fr om positions that you have de fended in the past.

I think it takes real courage to do that , and I say congra tulations to the members opposite for seeing the light on this issue. I think on this issue, given what I believe to be the all-pa rty position of consensus on the issue of penned hunting , I believe that sinc e we have ac hieved that consensus , we as a Le gisla ture can move forward to ensuring that this disgusting pra ctice does , in fa ct, go the way of so many other spe cies in this provin c e and around the world. They can be extin c t in Ma nitoba.

My goal is that penned hunt in g be comes exti nct , and I am glad that the member s opposite are with us in that respe ct. I do though want to point out fr om the perspe ctive of this side of the House that we have been absolutely consistent on this issue. Be fore the ele ction , we said that penned hunting was a disgusting pra ctice, and we asked questions in the House over and over again of the former Minister of Natural Resour ces. Our position was clear. We went into the ele ction last fa ll with a clear , conc ise position on pe nned hunting. We said no.

We said no be fore the ele ction , we said no during the ele ction , and today we are saying no aga in . Today we are coming through with the promises that we made a number of months ago. That is something that I am very proud of , that we can take a position, we can stic k to that position, put it to the people of Man itoba, and then in government , one of the firs t pie ces of legisla tion that we bring forward for con sideration in this House deals with the promise that we made to ban penned hunting. I think that is the kind of model that any government should use.

That is the kind of model that we intend to use on this side of the House, not just for this legisla tion , but with others. I think that is an honest , straight forward appr oa c h to this. If there are people out there who do not like what we are doing with this legislation , they have every opportunity and every right to disagree with us, but those people know where we stand on this issue. There is no doubt about tha t If we have a good , old -fa shioned , honest deba te on it and we have a good, old- fashioned , honest disagreement , so be it.

I mean , not everybody in the prov in c e is going to agree on every thing all the time. That is the essen c e of demo cra cy. An Honourable Member: What is good about old- fashioned? Mr. Struthers: Well , the right member is asking about what is good about old- fashioned. I say there are lots of things good about old- fashioned , espe cially the old- fashioned , long-standing reputa tion , long-standing tradition that we like , on this side, to abide by, that we like , on this side, to strive towards , and that is of being totally up -front with the people that we represent.

I want to talk a little bit about an area that the provin cial government and many others are very mu c h conc erned about and very mu c h I think optimistic about , and that is the possibilities in this provin c e for ec otourism. Be cause one of the things that we will hea r from the opponents of Bill 5 is going to be that what we are doing is we are limiting the ec otourism dolla rs that will flow into this provin c e by taking away an opportunity to shoot an animal in a pen.

Now, aga in , if this is what ec otourism is all about , if that is the best we can come up with in terms of ec otourism , then I think we have got a pretty sad and sorry state in this provin ce, but I am optimistic enough to bel ieve that ec otourism is a lot more than the disgusting pra ctic e of shooting animals in a pen. I think there are huge opportunities for ec otourism in Manitoba with out having to resort to the abuse of wildli f e that has been apparent in parts of this prov in c e and evident in other jurisdictions. Instead of shooting wildli f e in pens , the Hon ourable Member for Burrows (Mr.

Martindale) would suggest , I am sure , that you should shoot them with a camera. Now, the last thing you want in the middle of a picture of an

634 LEG ISLAT IVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 27, 2000 elk or a bison or any other animal is a fe nce post and barbed wire. You want to be able to go out into some of the beauti ful areas of Manitoba with your camera in hand and snap some pictures of real animals out in Mother Nature 's backyard , something that is worth something. Anybody can go and take a picture of a penned animal. Anybody can shoot a penned animal. You do not have to be a great hunter to do that.

What this province needs to do , I believe , is enco urage people to come to visit us, encourage our own Manitobans to parti cipate in Mother Nature 's beauty , to go out and partake in ac tivities that are sustainable in our envi ronment and not have to destroy something along the way. It does not matter to me , if you have a hundred dol lars in your pocket or , if you have a thousand dol lars in your pocket or ten thousand dolla rs . it should not make any difference. I do not care how much money you have in your pocket to come and shoot an animal.

I think what we ought to do is outlaw this disgusting practice and capita li z e on those ecotourism opportunities that I think exist in Manitoba. *(I 0: 20) l'vfr. Conrad Santos. Deputy Speaker, in the Chazr We have-and I have tested this out when I can-some fa ntast ic canoe routes throughout Manitoba. Fairly recently , some fr iends of mine and I tra velled down the Manigo tagan River. We saw wildli f e along the Manig otagan River. Ama zingly , not one of us thought that we should take any of that wildli f e and put it in a pen and shoot it. It was a great trip.

The Grassy River , the one part of that Grassy River that I have been on fr om Wekusko Falls near Snow La ke right east to Setting La ke a t the town of Ponton . that is a beauti f ul trip if anybody ever wants to take it. We need to be showing those of f. That is ecotour i sm. Penned hunting is no t. I also want to deal with a tradition in this province that I think is an important aspect to Manitoba living. That is the tra dition of hunting , good old- fashioned hunting that is very pre valent in the Parkland area , part of which I represent. Many of my re latives were hunters.

My grand father ran a tra pline in the Swan River Valley. I have many of my family members who go out and they hope to get their name drawn for elk. They hope to get out there and shoot an animal to be put into their fr ee zers to fe ed their fa milies. I have a 15 -year -old nephew who was the proudest guy in the world not long ago when he shot his fir st deer. Now, there may be an argum ent. Some people. I understand , are not fans of hunting , but you co mpare hunting to penned hunting , and there is a big difference. There is a huge difference.

There is nothing wrong , in my way of thinking for a Manitoban , or somebody fr om outside of the province . to partake in what is a way of li fe, especially in rural Manitoba. Many people who ho m esteaded in the Dauphin and Roblin areas , in the Swan River area , other areas of the province fe d their families by hunting , fe d their fa milies by taking fr om nature food to fe ed themselves . There is nothing wrong with that , absolutely nothing wrong with hunting.

There is an argu ment to be made that it is a manage m ent tool that we have to undertake in order to keep po pulations of cer tain species under contro l. There is noth ing wrong wit h that . It is a lot different than what penned hunting entai ls. One of the reasons I think that br inging for ward th is legisla tion is a good step is we can now make an atte mpt to get rid of som e of the grey area s that are involved with the legisla tion , with the regulatio ns . with our approach to penned hunting . grey areas having to deal with

definitions. What we are doing is this enabling legisla tion is allowing us to work together with all ML As working together on suggesting regulations that need to be brought forward to erase those grey areas having to do with penned hunting The other grey area that I have noticed in this province has to do with the ethical question of the ethical standards for wildli f e in our province of Manitoba. I think we have to be clear on what we as legisla tors believe is ethically acceptable in our province when it comes to hunting.

I do not want to have legitima te hunters in this province to be painted with the same brush as those individuals who would shoot a hal f-tame animal within a penned situation, within a penned enclosure. I do not want that to look poorly , I do not want people to

April 27, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 635 look poor ly on hunt e rs jus t becau se some hunt e rs , so-ca lle d hunt e rs , wou ld shoot an anima l within a fe nc e. Part of th e gr ey ar ea, I me ntion e d th ere we re gr e y ar eas in te rm s of de finition s, ha s to do with th e de finition of pe nn e d hunting itsel f. I am gl ad that th e Membe r for Portag e Ia Prairi e (Mr. Faur schou ) agr ees with me on that.

I am sure that he is ke e n to distil th e de finition s, to mak e cle ar som e of th e de finition s invo lv e d with this whole conc ept . becau se ev er ybody can agr ee that what we hav e to do in this whole proc ess is mak e it fair and we hav e to mak e thing s stra igh tf orward and right in fr ont of pe opl e so that th e y know what we ar e de al ing with, so tha t th ey know that it do es not matt er what size th e pe n is tha t you put an an ima l in, it is still a pe n.

If you put anima ls into a pe n and fe e d th em, th e n you can imagin e-l e t us tak e an elk, for exa mp le , a ve ry socia l anima l. you feed him a fe w times. he is in th e pe n. There is no way th e ani mal is going to tak e of f wh en you driv e in in a ha lf -ton and your ri fle . He is mor e apt to com e toward s you than run away fr om you. If he is pe nn e d and he is fe d, like so many ar e. that is not fair . that is not a sport . that is not spor tsman ship. that is gr ee d.

So on e of th e de finition s that I want to de al with is this idea, th e myth that if you mak e th e pe n big en ough , if you hav e en ough acr es of land that some how that do es not con s titut e a pe nn e d hunt. We ll, Mr. Deputy Sp eak er, it do es. Wh ere is th e anima l going to go ? He is not going to run of f into th e wild and ge t away . It might tak e you a fe w mor e minut es to track th e anima l down, but he is not going to ge t away . He is in a pe n. That is pe nn ed hunting . As I stat ed be for e. if he 1s ha lf -tam e, he is not going to be pron e to run away in th e fir s t pl ac e .

It is a pr e tty ea sy kill . * (10:30) Wh e n I wa s thinking about th e word s that I wa s going to say this morning, I think back to a tough situa tion that th e form er Gov ernm e nt found itsel f in becau se, on th e on e hand, th e form er Gov ernm en t did not want to com e out and fu ll y support pe nn e d hunt s becau se th e y kn e w tha t th e pe op le of Manitoba wou ld tak e th e m to ta s k for that. On th e on e hand . wh e n th ey we re ask ed question s in th e House, th e y we re agr ee ing, oh, it is a bad thing, it is a dis gu sting sport.

The y had all th e rh e toric down and th e mini ste r of th e time kn e w all th e right thing s to say on that supe rf icial le ve l of th e he ad lin e in th e me dia, or th e fir s t story in th e me dia. But while th e mini ste r wa s saying that it wa s a dis gu sting thing to do , that it wa s te rrib le and that we wou la ne ve r al low this and our gov e rnm e nt wou ld ne ve r al low this to happ e n, at th e sam e time that gov e rnm en t wa s adv ert ising on th e Expl or e Manitoba we bsite a pe nn e d hunt.

Now. that wa s a little bit tough for th e form er Mini ste r to try to expl ain , that on th e on e hand th e y did not lik e this pe nn ed hunting but, at th e sam e time , th e y we re adv e rti sing a ranch , a location wh ere pe nn e d hunt s do actua ll y occur. It wa s right th er e for ev er ybody to see. All you had to do wa s cl ick on Expl or e Manitoba and go surfing on th e Net a little bit, on e of th e advanc eme nt s of te chno logy .

What th e form er gov ernm en t found out wa s that th ese advanc es in te chno logy some times al low th e public a pr etty cl ose look at what th e gov ern m en t is doing, and it is still th ere . Our gov e rnm en t is fac ed with th e sam e thing. We hav e to be up -front and hon est about this , and if we say we ar e not supporting pe nn e d hunt s and that we ar e going to ban th em, th e n we had bett er not be doing th e sam e kind of thing. But th e gov ern m en t had a tough situation.

On th e on e hand th e y had to look like th e y we re tough on pe nn e d hunt s but, on th e oth er hand , th e y had mad e some commitm e nt s . The gov er n me nt had . at that time , mov e d al ong th e elk ranching path, and I re m emb e r in this House being ridicu le d by some of th e me mbers oppo site , som e who ar e he re today, some who hav e go r.e on to oth er thing s . I re me mbe r being how le d at becau se I stood acro ss th e way wh e n I wa s in oppo sition and I said this will le ad to pe nn e d hunt s , elk ranching will le ad to pe nn e d hunt s.

It ha s in all th e stat es that hav e gon e into it in th e U.S. It ha s gon e this rout e in juris diction s in Canada. I said it wou ld go fr om elk ranc hing, wh e n you catch your elk for th e pur po ses of elk -ranc hing, it is going to carry natura ll y into pe nn e d hunting. The me mbers

636 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 27, 20 00 opposite wer e indignant. The me mbers opposite did not want to he ar that, becaus e I think th ey kn ew it was co ming as we ll . Anybody looking at this whol e situation with so me co mmon sens e woul d und erstand that when th e el k is finished. it has spent its time on th e el k ranch , what ar e you going to do with it? What ar e th e produc ers going to do ? Just going to let th e el k go back up into th e Duck Mountains, wher e it was captur ed fr o m in th e first pl ac e?

Just going to put it back in th e Riding Mountains, wher e this form er go ver nm ent lure d th em out in th e first pl ac e and caught th em ne ar McCr eary some whe re? That is not going to happ en. Of cours e it is going to lead to pe nn ed hunting. Of cours e this form er go vern ment und erstood wher e it was going on this. But as I said bef or e, I am very pl eas ed to see that th e fo rm er Go vern ment, no w th e pr esent -day Opposition, has in fa ct seen that . has in fa ct chang ed its position. un less it has chang ed its position again fr o m th e el ection.

I gu ess that kind of rem ains to be see n. Maybe th e me mbers opposite will stand and exp lain that to us today . I am ce rtain that th ey will . I ha ve ev ery faith that th e me mbers opposite hav e see n th e ligh t on this issue and that th ey will suppor t our gov ern ment in its quest to ban pe nn ed hunting , becaus e it do es make sens e. It is what th e pe op le of Manitoba want . The hunting co mmunity want s this legis lat ion. The Manitoba Wildl if e Federation did not like th e move s tha t th e form er Gov ern ment wer e making se vera l years ago.

The Manitoba Wildl if e Federation und erstood that this woul d lead to pe nn ed hunting . Now, my und ersta ndin g is that th e Bison Association. th e El k Association , th ese group s und erstand this as we ll . These ar e groups who und erstand that th e int ent of this legis l ation is not to caus e da mag e to th e el k-ranc hing industry. It is not de sign ed to caus e da mag e to th e bison industry. It is speci fica lly de sign ed to kee p pe nn ed hunting out of this provinc e.

I will be gr eat l y disappoint ed if me mbers opposite misconstru e this leg islation to be any thing oth er than that, becaus e that woul d not be an hon est approac h to this legislation. I woul d be very disappointed if oth er groups outside of this Le gislatur e tr y to do that. I do und erstand, though, th e argu ments that many Manitobans ha ve made to me . ha ve co me to me who ar e owne rs of el k, owne rs of buffa lo, bison, th ey hav e co me to me and th ey hav e said we ar e worned about this leg islation becaus e we ar e wor ri ed about th e defi nition of do mestic and exotic .

I appr eciat e that questioning. If I was an owne r. I would be asking, too. becaus e I und erstand that that is a livel ihood we ar e ta lking about. It is not th e int ent of this go vern ment to caus e har dship fo r those pe op le who ar e rai sing bison. It is not th e int ent of this go vern ment to ca use har dship for pe op le who ar e rai sing el k. As I hav e said bef or e, th e Me mber for Portag e Ia Prairi e (Mr. Faurschou ) aske d a ve ry good question. Ther e will be thorough public consu ltations on this bilL Ther e will be re gu lations brought fo rward.

Be caus e this is enabling leg islation. th er e will be re gu lat i ons brought fo rward. An Honourable Member: The most dang erou s kind . Mr. Struthers: Wel L th e form er minister , who was absolut el y caught in th e midd le of this dile mma on behal f of his gov ern ment, who kind of got his kn ee s ta ke n out fr o m und er him. I gu ess. in th e middle of th e la st el ection . just point s out that this is th e most dang erous kind of re gu lat ion. Wel L I will point out that th er e is a differ ent gov ern ment ov er he re that may tr eat re gu lation s a little differ ent l y than th e form er on e.

I appr ec iat e th e minister speaking fr o m exp eri enc e on that matt er, but th er e is a bett er way of doing thing s than sn eaking stuff in la te r, like we sort of got us ed to with th e form er gov e rnment. I want to al so mak e it absolut el y cl ear - An Honourable Member: Pe rfectly cl ear. Mr. Struthers: Per fect l y cl ear that we on this side of th e House hav e no int ention of causing hard ship to some of my constitu ents who ar e into th e gro wing of bison in th e Dauphin - Rob lin ar ea . That is not th e inte nt of this leg islation.

April 27. 20 00 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 637 I have in my riding people who have bison farms. They contribute to our local economy. They have families whose livelihoods are based on the farming of bison. There is no point in this or any other government taking on a legitimate operation like the one I am thinking of located just on the outside, the west side of the community of Gilbert Plains. It makes no sense for that. That is not going to happen. The basis for the concern from farmers who are working in the area of raising elk and raising bison in this province comes from a definition.

This is a grey area that I mentioned earlier that we would like to make crystal-clear through this legislation and through the public consultations that our minister has agreed to do and through the passing of regulation to make those sons of important details absolutely clear for the people involved in the bison industry and the elk industry, certainly. in other endeavours that the industrious people in Manitoba are putting forward, that other people are thinking of.

A lot of planning had gone into building farms based on the ranching of bison and elk and other animals, whether they be domestic or native to Manitoba or whether they are defined and considered as exotic. * (10:40) This legislation is not intended to affect anything else other than the penned hunting of animals. I cannot stress that enough.

I want to make it clear that once this bill receives Royal Assent, should it be passed through the regular processes of the bill proceedings through this House. at some point after receiving Royal Assent, what I would hope would happen is that we would prohibit only the hunting of captive, native and exotic wildlife. A person who possesses exotic wildlife who does not intend to hunt them will not be affected. Now, that, I think, should provide a lot of reassurance to people who are nervous about this bill proceeding.

That in itself should provide assurance for people who may be under the mis conception that we have some plan to provide a hardship for people who are legitimately ranching, legitimately farming, even those who are legitimately hunting in our province. So, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I am very glad to be able to speak to this bill today. I think it was a bill that was in the process for a long time. I would hope it would be a bill that the opposition would support.

I am a little disappointed that it took this long for a bill like this to come forward, but I am very glad that our minister, the Minister of Conservation (Mr. Lathlin), had the foresight to bring it forward here before Christmas in our session there in the fall and also to be able to meet with a number of groups before the bill was introduced and since it has been introduced. It is his intent to meet with as many groups on this as he can and to consult with the public thoroughly. Thank you very much. Mr. Deputy Speaker. I appreciate the opportunity to speak on this this morning. Mr.

Tom Nevakshonoff (Interlake): Good morning, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I rise today with great interest and eagerness to speak on Bill 5, The Wildlife Amendment Act. It is a matter of great interest to me as I am a member of a rural constituency, a great hunting constituency as well, I might add. There are many, many outfitters in the Interlake that are good friends of mine. It is on their behalf, as well, that I rise to speak today. I am also a hunter myself, which is another reason that this is so interesting to me.

At risk of possibly offending some of the members here or people in general who might take a moral stand against hunting, I would just like to briefly describe to you what I see as the meaning of hunting and what I think it should stand for. First of all, I think I would like to state that hunting to me first and foremost means the joy and the pleasure that I get in spending time in the forest, the outdoor experience, the fresh air, the exercise, the camaraderie with friends, fellow hunters that like to do this. I think that I would like to take it also to a higher level.

I think a person can experience this without hunting, but I think hunting takes you to the highest level of experiencing the great outdoors. It is the challenge that it entails. When you pit yourself against the animals in the forest, the natural inhabitants of the forest, this is the true test, I think, of how well you have adapted to the forest

638 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 27 , 2000 and how co mpatibl e you ar e with it. So I think that is something I would lik e to mention. Now, myself , wh en I sta rte d to hunt, sta rte d with a rifle . Aft er I had mad e my first two or th re e kills, at that point I was satisfied that I had de velop ed th e skills. Then I began to rea li ze that th e kill is not th e highl ight of th e hunt. It was an ticli mactic to me. Quit e fr ank ly, I was a littl e sadd en ed at th e de ath of th e ani ma l, but that was pa r t of it.

So to make it a littl e more difficul t I put th e rifle down, and I switched to th e bow and ar row. Now as oft en as I can I ge t into th e fo rest and I lik e to hunt elk with th e bow instead , which I find is ev en more chal lenging and more rewa rding and more exciting in that you ha ve to ge t in so clos e to th e ani ma l. You learn so much more about that individual ani mal by ha ving to be that much clos er , and I think that is a ve r y rewa rding exper ienc e.

The actual kill beco mes ev en more seconda ry, I think . especially sinc e I ha ve not manag ed to tak e on e with th e bow and ar row yet, but it has really mad e th e po int to me that it is th e pu rsuit itse lf . not th e actual ki ll that is what counts her e. It is th e sens e of fair pl ay that I ge t fr o m this. I think it can hon estl y and legiti mat ely be re fe rred to as a spor t in th e sens e that th er e is a sens e of fa ir pl ay inh e rent in hunting, that th e bottom lin e to th e whol e pr oc edu re is that essentially th e ani mal has a chanc e to escap e.

That is what mak es it spo rtsman -lik e. Onc e you sta r t putting wal ls ar ound it, onc e you el iminat e th e oppo r tunit y fo r this ani mal to escap e, as fa r as I am conc ern ed it is no long er cl assified as hunting. It is something enti re ly diffe rent. For those who ha ve to stoop to th i s le ve l , to hunt within a pe n, I would sugg est that th er e is a pl ausible alt ernati ve to this. Ther e ar e nu me rous co mput er ga mes, fo r exa mpl e, on e cal led The Deer Hunter, as a matt er of fact, Mr.

Deputy Sp ea ker , if th ey want virtual rea l ity hunting, which essentially is what pe nn ed hunting is. th en do it th e bloodl ess way, I sugg est, and go with th e co mput er ga me. It is a lot fa ir er . * (10:50 ) Mr. Deputy Sp ea ker , wh en it co mes to th e actual kill , I would like to say that taking th e li fe of an ani mal is not a ga me. It is ve r y ser ious busin ess her e. This is a God -gi ven gift that God gi ves to ou rsel ves, hu man beings, and to ani mals as we ll. It is a ve r y ser ious thing, a ve r y ser ious step wh en you de cide to tak e th e li fe of an ani mal.

You should ha ve ve r y ser ious int entions and reasons fo r doing so wh en this occu rs. As I allud ed to ea rl ier , it is not fun wh en you walk up to th e ani mal that is lying de ad on th e gr ound. This is

an act that you ha ve co mmitted. At that point you better ha ve, I think , ve r y good reasons fo r doing so. Your int entions should be to ultili ze that ani mal co mpl et ely : eating it. It is not just a tr ophy that you ar e aft er her e. It is much more than that. Pe rsona ll y. wh en I mak e a kil L I fe el re mor se, but I continu e to do so becaus e I bel iev e in th e va lu e of wild meat. I think it is pu re. Ther e ar e no add itives to it.

Quite fr ank ly. ev er y wint er I like to ha ve a lot of wil d meat in my fre ez er . fr o m gee se and duc ks to at least on e deer and hop ef ul ly some elk meat in th e da ys to co me . An Honourable Member: Withi n a li mit. Mr. Nevakshonoff: Withi n a limit. cer tainl y. On e a year . that is my limit. I am not used to being he ckl ed fr o m my own side of th e House her e. I did not antici pat e that. Just to finish up on th e kill ing within th e pe n her e, I think that pe op le who focus on pe n hunting, th ey ar e pr incipa lly int e rest ed in kill ing . Mr. Deputy Sp ea ker .

That is th e bottom lin e to th em. They tak e pl easu re in th e act of kill ing . As fa r as I am conc ern ed. taking pl easu re in th e act of killi ng . that means you ar e no better than a beas t yoursel f. You ar e no better than th e an ima ls that you hunt . You ar e a fer a l beast , to be pr ec ise, if you tak e pl easur e in th e actua l ki ll . Quite fr ank ly, I do not und er stand it. To tr ivia lize th e de ath of an ani mal, to tr ivia lize it. to make a ga me out of it. as is th e cas e with th e pe nn ed hunt, I think . is tr ul y a de spicable act. That is my opinion on it.

Now, de ath is pa r t of life. It surr ounds us. It is in evitable. We face it ev er y day. Witn ess th e fact that ov er th e past coupl e of days her e th e fi rst thing that this House add ress ed wer e issues relating to de ath. We de bat ed The Holocaust

April 27, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANI TOBA 639 Bill, which was a prime example of that. The second thing we debated were the horrors of breast cancer, the pain and the fear that women and their families have to go through in that respect. There is nothing light-hearted about death, and I think the death of an animal should be given some consideration in that respect. Now, myself, I am an outfitter. I run a fishing business up in northern Manitoba.

In this business for 30 years-it was my father's and then passed on to myself-over 30 years of being a fishing guide, I have witnessed first-hand man's capacity for cruelty. Sometimes it boggles the mind. You wish that a fish had a voice, that he could actually scream, and then that might draw people's attention to what is taking place here. I will give you an example. We took the stringer into the fish-cleaning shed one day. and my guest was a man of the cloth, he was a minister. He put these fish onto the table and these fish were still alive.

He proceeded to fillet a living animal, cut the flesh off this living animal. You could see it spasming in agony, and it meant virtually nothing to him. Like, myself, when I catch a fish, I bring it up, the first thing I do is I knock it over the head. I kill it, it is dead in the boat. fine. It was a quick, clean, humane kilL As far as hunting goes, a quick humane kill m the forest is legitimate. I wish I could maybe hit a few of my, you know. I know my dad was in the fish-cleaning shed that morning and he watched this.

He is a man of Doukhabour ancestry, and they took very seriously the death of anything, not just a human being but animals as well. He was abhorred by this sight of the pain and suffering inflicted on this animal. It was very traumatic for him. Now, as far as respect for living things go, I could even take it a step further, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I have some Aboriginal ancestry. Some of my English ancestors who came over to Canada here in the 18th century all married Indian wives, and as a result I have some Aboriginal blood in me. I was in the forest one day with my brother up at the fishing lodge.

We were cutting some big trees down, big spruce trees that we were using for stringers for our cabins, and we also cut stringers for our docks and so on and so forth. My brother filled me in on aboriginal practice where when the Aboriginals would take a life of an animal, for instance, or even a tree, one of the first things they would do is they would thank the animal for its contribution. They would explain to its spirit why it was killed and how it would be used by their family to keep their families alive and so on and so forth. This shows proper respect for the things that we find in nature.

We do not rule this earth, we are not gods of this earth. There is somebody above us who we have to answer for in the end. I th1nk that how much we respect nature and the land that we live on, I think, is going to count when it comes to facing our Maker there. I will get off this topic, I see it has stirred up the Opposition quite a bit here. I would like to speak for a moment on the established hunting industry in the Interlake and throughout Manitoba as well. This is a well-entrenched industry in our province. It has been in operation for decades now.

I know that it has given an opportunity for many people in my constituency, ordinary people, the opportunity to expand their operations and live a better life as a result of it. It is a good industry for the province in that it brings in foreign currency at little cost to the province itself. So, in terms of our balance of payments, it is a classic example. It is a form of tourism which is of great benefit to us. *(11:00) Now, as far as the hunting side of it goes, you have to ask yourself what makes Manitoba so attractive a place to come for these hunters.

My personal opinion is that it is the superior genetic stock that we have here in the province. Living so far up into the North, the rigid, hostile environment that these animals have to live in has strengthened their stock to the point where I would say that the stock here in Manitoba is second to none. It is some of the best stock in the world. You take the elk, for instance. I do not know if everybody is aware of it, but in Manitoba here we are dealing with our own unique subspecies. It is called the manitobensis subspecies of elk.

In comparison to the Rocky Mountain elk, for instance, or the Roosevelt elk, it is very limited in number, and yet in comparison to these other subspecies it scores very high. The world's

640 LEG ISLAT IVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Apr i l27 , 2000 largest elk ever killed was a man i tobens is. It was shot right here in Man i toba I think in the Gilbert Plains area. It scored in excess of 450 po ints, and it was the largest bull ever taken, wh ich is a good indicator of the stock here in Man itoba. Now. proponents of penned hunt i ng might say that , well, there is no non -res ident elk hunt ing a t th is po i nt in time, wh ich is true, but proponents of the pen ned hunt will also state that what they want to divers ify into next is the wh ite -ta iled deer.

That is the next an imal on the progre ssion, right ? So , on that fr ont, there is non -res ident hunt ing in th is prov ince, a we ll establ ished industry. The biggest problem I have with penned hunt i ng is when you star t to trap these an imals the next th i ng you kn ow you are start i ng to trade these an imals, to sell them into Saskatchewan . into North Dakota. into Cal ifo rnia , wherever. If we release our mono poly on th i s very strong gene pool that we have up in northern Man itoba . it is go i ng to be a direct disincent i ve to these very hunters that ha ve been com ing to Man itoba till now.

If they can ra ise the stock themselves on the ir own hunt ing preserves down in the Un ited States . what bene fit is that to us? None whatsoever . Mr. Deputy Spe aker. So, quite fr an kly, I th i nk on that fr ont that it is too late fo r the elk, but we should take steps to ensure that the wh ite - ta iled popula t i on does not become the next on the peck i ng order here. When you talk of wh ite -ta ils, fo r exa mp le-and I ment ioned that the la rgest bull ever taken wa s in Man i toba .

You just have to look across the border into Saskatchewan and the Hanson buck that was taken in Biggar , Saskatchewan. a fe w years ago scored 213 typ ical po ints and broke a record that had stood for over 80 years , wh ich is an ind ica tor of the strength of our stock in northern Man i toba here. So I th ink we should th ink lo ng and hard bef ore we sacr ifice what we have establ ished here just fo r tl, e sake of some investors or entrepreneurs who see another opport un ity to cap ital ize at the expense of the entrenched establ ished out fitt i ng industry. Now, Mr .

Deputy Speaker , I have been read ing in the newspapers here how people have been saying tha t the Humane Soc iety- ! th ink the Opposition might have ment ioned them -g roups like People fo r the Eth ical Treatment of An imals. that they are sett i ng our agenda on th is, that they are pull i ng our str i ngs , so to spea k, that they are dictat ing to us and ef f ect ively that they have dictated to us th i s bill in opposition to penned hunt ing. I take except i on to that. I disagree with that tota ll y. This or iginate d in our cauc us. It is our in itiative.

We are not succumbing to pressures fr om any outs ide lobby groups on this fr ont whatsoever. I will give you a pr i me examp l e of th is. It was no lon ger than a week ago that our Prem ier. Gary Doer, came out publ icly and stated that Man i toba would not be do ing away with the spr ing bear hunt. Tha t says it all, I th ink. He stated it very well . I. as a rural individual and a hunter. see that he has an understand i ng of this. a good understand ing of it in that he makes the ver y obvious po int that in terms of kill i ng the fe males . the cu b-bear ing sows. the la w s are al ready in place.

The laws are wr itten there . It is aga i nst the law to kill a sow. The hunter has a respons ibil ity to determ ine whether or not tha t bear that he is target i ng has cubs or not. If he makes a mistake . he is in direct contr a vent ion and violat ion of the law and will pay the pr i ce accord ingly. The law is there. The hunt is leg itimate. We have made that dec ision to stand by it. Now, there are a lot of bears. There is no shortage of bears , to be honest with you. As man expands as well, inevit ably the two of us ov erlap to the po mt where there is con flict.

Farmers, fo r instance, bee fa rm ers . the honey fa rm ers, they have lots of problems with bears. They kill hun d reds of them every year because they are threat ening the i r livel ihood. Go to any garbage dump . fo r instance , at night and shine your headl ights around, you will probab l y see I 0 or 12 bears in there . Myself . as a lo dge owner, I have to deal with bears every year. They come into the lodge. Fish guts are a pr ime attractant fo r bears . coolers with fo od, fo r instance, garbage , so on and so fo rth. So year l y I have to deal with bears.

There are not too many alternat ives, quite fr an kly . l give them a chance. The first couple of times I will shoot over the top of the ir heads, and if they

April 27 , 2000 LEG ISLAT IVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 64 1 get the message , as they usual ly do, they will depart. But if they are a problem bear then they have to be dealt with, and that usually means the death of that an imal, unf ortunate ly fo r it, but that is the way it is. The last bear I shot, fo r instance , was in the process of cra wling through my brother 's fro nt window. He was in his cabin. He has two young children , 3 years and 6 years of age. This bear was atte mpting to crawl thr ough the fr ont window. So , I am sorry , but that one had to die. So inev itably man overlaps with bears.

If they can be taken legitima tely in a hunt , then , as far as I am concerned , that is okay. Now , when I am speaki ng of bears , I would like to make a point , a very valid point , I think, and th i s is the fa ct that a lot of bears are being poached now , and they are being poached fo r some thing as simple as the i r gall bla dders. Now, this is where we are crossing the line. This is a trav es ty. Thi s is a crime, I th i nk , to kill someth ing fo r its gall bladder. It is a good indica tor to us of a very od ious pra ctice.

This is the trade in wild animal par t s that I am personally opposed to and I th ink all of society looks down upon in general. For exam ple , I th ink it was in the Duck moun tains a couple of years ago or in Riding Moun tain , the largest bear in Man itoba , probably in Can ada , a bear in excess of 900 pounds was shot and killed , and all that was taken was its ga l l bladder , a real traves ty, as far as I am concerned. *(11:10) Now, this trade in wild animal parts , we have seen numerous examples of it in Canada and around the world. They kill el ephants.

They make wastepaper baskets out of an el ephant's fo o t, fo r example , or they will kill a silverback gor illa . an endangered spec ies, and cut his hand of f and make an ash tray out of th i s gor illa ' s hand. If that is no t despicable , I do not know what is. The tigers in wes tern Siberia and the Bengal tigers in India are on the verge of ex tinct ion now because they grind their bones up fo r some medic inal value. Mr. Deputy Speaker, th i s is what has brought us to our current situation here in Manitoba . This is why we started tra pping elk in the first pla ce , was fo r their velvet.

Supposedly, it has some character istics as an aphr odisiac. How tr ivial can you be to go after something like this? Espec ially in the days when we have Viagra now, why do we have to go after the elk? If it is fo r the meat , Mr. Deputy Speaker, I have no problems whatsoever with fa rm ing elk if it is fo r the meat. That is the defin ition of agriculture, is it not? The creat ion of fo od essential ly. If it is on that fro nt, I do not have a problem with it. On that front, you can also take into considerat ion the Man itoba Bison Associa tion with whom I have met.

I had a good discussion with them, and they had concerns with this bill as wel l. I assured them that as long as they are in the product ion of meat, there was no problem whatsoever with Bill 5 and the i r industry. I have a document here, the i r position paper, as a matter of fa ct. For anybody who is interested, I could give them a copy, and I quote here: "The pr imary purpose of our bison industry is the production of high qual ity meat." Pure and simple. That says it all. If it is meat, we do not have a problem with it.

Putting it into the cage and mak ing a joke out of its death, then th i s government has a problem with it. The bison are a very good stock animal, Mr. Deputy Spea ker , a prime exa mple of a good prev iously wild an imal that can be captured and raised and used in the production of fo od on an agricultural fr ont. It is a class i c example of such an an imal. For example , they need no assistance whatsoever in calving. Out on the range by themselves, they will calve. They need no assistance which, as many cattle producers will tell you , that would be a big load off the i r mind.

They can be pastured 365 days out of the year on the pasture. They do not have to be brought into enclosures. They do not have to be watere d. Nobody watered the buffalo a thousand years ago here in North America. They ate snow. They require less fo od than cat tle. There are no steroids , no growth hormones. They require very , very fe w drugs and antibiotics which makes it that much cleaner and purer a meat fo r consumers . Quite fr ankly, they are very tasty as well, as I fo und out that night when I met with the bison producers .

642 LEG ISLAT IVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA April 27, 2000 So I do not have a problem with the bison producers. I think they understand our position, and I would not be su rprised if they ful ly endorsed our Bill 5 on that front as well. Bef ore I close on bison, I would just like to thank Ken Overby and Dave Giesbrecht of the Manitoba Bison Association fo r filling me in, fo r educating me on the virtues of t his animal. As far as the market ing of this animal, as well, Mr. Deputy Speaker, they have done a wonder fu l thing.

They have created a classic new generation co -op where they control not only the production, but the marketing and sale and processing of their meat as well, which is exactly the kind of agriculture that we want here in Manitoba. You know, fa rmers have to diver sify. If they can set up this type of a marketing co-op and have control over their stock, this is the way we want to go. It is unf o rtunate that the previous administra tion had not set the hog industr y up in this mode, you know.

By doing away with the single desk, they have basically handed control over to the large processors, who are now ve rtically integra ting down through the system and basically pushing out the small fa rmers, making this market inaccessible to them. So that was ve r y unf ortunate . This is something that we have inherited in our Governmen t, and it is going to be a big problem fo r us. So I applaud the bison producers in Manitoba fo r pre-empting this, fo r learning fr om that experience and setting this industr y up the way it should be set up.

Now, in my opinion, there has been a lot of disinformation coming out about this penned hunting. People keep saying that we are inhibiting the fa rmers, that we are preventing fa rmers fr om diversifying, and I take exception to this. Everything that takes pla ce in rural Manitoba, just because it is not done in the city, just because it is in rural Manitoba does not mean that it is fa rm ing. It does not mean it is farm ing. Why? Just because it is done in the country ? That does not make sense to me. It is an expensive industry to get involved in.

I think I read somewhere that it could cost up to a quarter of a milli on dol lars just to set up as an elk fa rmer today. This is not an option open to a strugg ling far mer who is gra sping fo r ways to diversify. If he had a quarter of a milli on dolla rs in excess change lying around, you know, I do not think he would be in that much difficulty. So I would just like to make the point that it is not necessarily fa rming we are talking abou t. This is investment capital. This is people coming in fr om who-knows-where investing in this industry, not necessarily fa rm ers.

So I think we should make this distinction. I can give you a good example, Mr. Deputy Speaker. In the production of cannabis, I think it is, you can look at it in two ways, right. The person who is grow ing canna bis to make hemp out of it, to make rope out of it basically or is growing it fo r the seed to make oil, that is agriculture. That is a legitima te business. Bu t you take the same pla nt and you want to star t growing marijuana out of it and making hash oil out of it instead, now you are a drug tra ffi cker . right ? Now you are a crimina l becaus e this is against the law.

This is the same product with two diametrically opposed uses to this product. It is the same with elk. You can either hunt them in the wild. This penned hunting is at the opposite end of the spectrum, as far as I am concerned. That is just an example of some of the disinf o r mation that the public has to dea l with in terms ofthis industry. Another argument that has been made is that other jurisdictions are doing it. They are doing it in Saska tchewan; they are doing it in North Dakota. Theref ore, why are we not doing it here in Manitoba ? Right ? Well, does that make sense ?

Just because somebody else does something, you know, that does not make it right. Two wrongs do not make a right. If I jumped of f a clif f, would you fo llow me ? Obviously not, because it is stupid. Just because somebody else does it does not mean that we have to do it here in Manitoba. If we always go and shoot for the lowest common denomi nator in dealing with an issue like this, there will be no law. We will be dealing with anarchy here instead. Government has to take respon sibility on something like this.

Although it might be unattra ctive to some people, it is going to be done because it has to be done, quite fr ankly. The determination of law should not be based on business principles. Just because it is

April 27 , 2000 LEG ISLAT IVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 643 economically viable to do something does not mean that the law should be based on that front. Economic viability is not always necessarily the best thing fo r our society. Now, on that fr ont , the law is necessary. That is our resp onsibility here in this Chamber , right ? * (11 :20) Now, on an agricultural front , let us go back there. You take drainage , for instance. Recently the Court of Appeal ruled that the Province has no jurisdiction, has no business regulating drainage. and there are a sel ect fe w out there that might endorse this.

But I think that , if you asked nine out of ten fa rmers , they would say, oh no , hold on here. Maybe it is not such a bad idea that the Province maintain control over drainage because , what is to prevent some guy upstream fr om running all the water of f his land onto your property and you are flooded ? If this man does not have recourse , if he cannot go to the Province fo r protect ion , then we get back to the state of anarchy that we have to avoid in this province. We have the International Bounda ry Waters Treaty between Canada and the Un ited State s.

If you can regula te drainage between states, then certai nly between individual s it is warran ted. One of the final points I would like to make, Mr. Deputy Spea ker, is the threat to the environment that this practice of penned hunting and the bringing in of non -indigenous species into the province to do so, the threat that it poses to the environment. We are stepping on a slippery slope here. It has happened numerous times in the past. Go to Austral ia. Some guy got the bright idea to introduce rabbits there. Now they are overrunning the country.

In Manitoba here we are dealing with a similar catast rophe and I am not saying- this is not just theore tical. It is taking pl ace now in dealing with wild boar. A lot of them have escaped. You go into the La Broquerie area; they are running around fr ee in the woods now and are causing a significant problem. They are not easy to kill. They are very intell igent , they are very destructive , and they are very dangerous also. Somebody eventual ly could die because of this atte mpt to diversify into boars , so this is something we should be careful with. What next ?

Are we going to be introducing Siberian tigers into Manitoba fo r penned hunt ? I am going to wrap up , Mr. Deputy Speaker. I would just like to close by stating that , quite fr an kly , the previous admin istration sat on their hands and tacitly approved of this pract ice. We are moving towards penned hunting. I am af ra id, if they had won the election , it would be a fa it acco mpli; it would be here in Manitoba. The New Democratic Party promised to fix this if we were elected. We were ele cted . Bill 5 is on the ta ble. We are going to fix this penned hunting industry. Thank you, Mr. Deputy Sp eaker. Ms.

Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): I am interested in joining this debate here today dealing with Bill 5, dealing with an issue related to wildlif e and an amendment to the Wildl ife Act, dealing with issues around biodiversity, dealing with- I think after listening to some of the speeches by some of my coll eagues -issues around ethics and values. It is interes ting , and I think it is good to hear people talking in this House about ethics and about values. I think that that is part of the basis of this legisla tion that we are seeing here today.

I am anxious to hear some comments on the record on this issue fr om members opposite particula rly , given the fact that under their government they said that pen hunting was already illegal. Then , later on , as I will get into more detai l, they said, oops, oh , it is not; we made a mistake. That is why we are here today fu lfillin g an ele ction promise and bringing in Bill 5 which is a specific amendment to The Wildlif e Act to allev iate a loophole.

It is amending the definition of wildl ife to include exotic animals that are wild in other parts of the world that are being brought here , enclosed , raised up and then of f ered up to hunters fo r a fe e fo r the purpose of often trophy hunting or perhaps fo r meat. I was hoping to have with me today a copy of the wildl ife policy that the then -Minister fo r Natural Resources , the Member fo r the Interlake (Mr. Enns) , signed, which has a very clear definition of wildlif e. Unfortunat ely , I do not have that document here with me today , but I

644 LEG ISLAT IVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA April 27, 2000 know from reading it in the past that it really is a good example and it is a very strong policy on wildlif e. I would suggest that in a number of areas, even though the fo rmer government signed on to that policy, in a number of areas they have not in the past had Manitoba live by that policy. It is interesting to know, after listening to the comments by my colle ague, the way that wildl ife is defined in the legisla tion to include only species that are indigenous to Manitoba. The Member fo r the Interlake (Mr. Nevak shonof

f) suggested maybe we will have Ben gal tigers next that are being brought here and being hunted . But I do not understand something else about what is happening. Currently, as I understand it, the penned hunt would include bison as well as species of deer. Now, maybe some of those species are not indigenous to Manitoba, but certainly bison and buff alo are. So that is one of the things about the current way that the definition is being fo ll owed that I do not understand and I think needs some cla rification and explana tion.

Beca use I under stand some of the animals that we are talking about fo r these penned hunts are wild boars, elk. some species of deer, as wel l as bison. I know that there are a lot of issues fac ing rural Manitoba, fac ing diffe rent areas of the province, and a number of the proponents of penned hunting will say that there is a need fo r diversification in the economy in those areas , that this is a great opportunity. I am going to get into some of the prof its or the value that it is being marketed with this practice.

They will talk about it as value-added and a way to supplement the income fo r fa rmers or other seasonal workers. We also, though, have to look at some of the very practical problems with it. The problems of escapes, appare ntly we have a huge problem in the province. I was just interested in reading that there have at times been more than 200 boars loose in one municipal ity, in the Municipality of Brokenhea d .

So what happens is boars that are captured either just for pure fa rms that are not going to be penned hunts, they are just being raised as wild meat, those can escape, but also animals that are raised in captivity fo r the purpose of penned hunts, those can escape.

So not only, as I read fr om the Free Press in October 1998, can this be a problem in some municipal ities-where they have the Crocus Grove Nudist Resor t , there was a concern tha t they were having 200 nudi sts and there was going to be 200 wild boars there at the same time-but also it is a concern to all of us because the problem with raising animals in captivity and then having them escape and go into the wild is the inter mixing of disease and po tentially also in terbree ding, and that causes all sorts of other issues when you are talking about wild species.

I know that that has also been a concern with the practice of elk ranch ing and similar ly wit h penned hunts, including elk as well as other deer and those kinds of species. Bu t what I wanted to talk about a little bit besides just those very sort of biological and concrete practical concerns about this practice is more the philosophical and some of the ot her issues related to the ethics and the va lues that this raises.

We live in a culture where I think that violence and perhaps even hunting is ver y deeply rooted in our culture In Canada we are par t of a predomi nantly Judea -Christian ethic, and we can look at how deep ly these kinds of values are rooted in our society, even throug h a variety of areas , whether it is mythical belief s , whether it is more cultur al things related to the kinds of fo ods that we eat but even when you look at mythological stories like the creation story of Adam and Eve. which fr om the ver y beginning suggests that we were created to be lord and master over all of nature . *( II :30) We know that other cultures do not share this.

If you look at Hindu cultures or Ba hai or Buddhist or many indigenous cultures including First Nations here in our part of the pla net, they do not share that view. They share more a view that we are not the lord and masters, that we are part of a web of lif e, that we are interdependent amongst all the other species not only biological but botan ical, and that we have to respect that. We have to recogniz e that we share the pla net with all these species and that they too have similar, I wou ld not say the same but similar,

Apri127, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 645 kinds of rights that we do. The kind of Eurocentric view that I was explaining earlier, I think, is though very deeply rooted in our society and perhaps in all of us. I know fr om a personal example, even though I know of very many good reasons, fo r examp le, to give up eating meat, I have not been able to do that . I know of all the reasons, whether they are health, whether they are sort of pol itical reasons, whether they are other sort of issues, it is such a part of my upbringing and my culture.

Even though I am concerned about the hormones and the antibiotics and all the other issues rela ted to eating mass-produced meats that you buy at any grocery store, I must conf ess that I still do that and I have not been able to make that change. I am using that as one examp le of , I think, the way that we can look a t some of these kind of issues that we are dealing with today that are part of Bill 5 and how difficult it is. Other people might suggest though that this is also an issue of viole nce, and violence is entertai nment.

We live in a culture where ever ything fr om viole nt movies, murder mysteries, war toys-and you cannot put this type of penned hunting, and other hunting fo r that matter, fo r recreational purposes into that same umbrella where we do things that are very violent by nature as part of entertainment or recreati on. I think that we can question all of that. I think part of us as a conscious civilization is to step back and try to look at what we are doing. L many of the members know now, have a two-yea r old daughte r. She certainly makes me step back and take a look at what I am doing.

I am always struck by how important animals are to little kids. We all know every childhood nursery rhyme and every childhood story includes either three little pigs and a big bad wolf and three bears and goats and billy goat' s gr uff. They are all rela ted to animals, and we must realize that those early stories are creating a view of the position and place of animals in our lives and in our society and our world fo r children fr om the very moment that they are born, and they get that small teddy bear.

I am always, on a personal note, very conscious to not just talk about the Big Ba d Wolf with my daughter, Mira. She has pictures of wolves howling in her bedroom and one of the things she likes to do at night is play wolf howls. So we howl at the wolves that are in her bedroom . She has some pictures of wild horses running and she has a picture of a bald eagle flying. I think all of those kinds of things that we can do with small children are going to create a value where they see the fa scination and the beauty and apprecia te animals in the wild.

I think to try to recognize as well that when we read stories like Red Riding Hood and the Big Ba d Wolf that we can convey the certain kind of attitude and I would even say pre judice towards animals to suggest that they are only to be viewed fr om the relationship to us in that sort of predator or even problem kind of mode. I think that when we are talking about the kind of ethics and values that we bring to this Legisla ture and we must base a lot of our debate on, we can look at all of those kinds of issues I have just talked about and how ingrained they are in our society, in our fa milies.

It goes all the way fr om chil dren's toys and literature right through teens, the kind of practices now that teens have with video games where they get points fo r how many people they can shoot in the video game, and perhaps there is also some in there, I would think, fo r shooting animals as well, right up to when people become adults and they then can partake in practices like penned hunting. It is interesting to note that there are organizations like the Humane Society.

I bet we would all remember a very dramatic and ef f ective campaign that they had that made the connection between human behaviour and the way that we treat animals and then human behaviour and the way that we will treat other people. They had a very striking pamphlet, the Humane Society did, that on one side had half the fa ce of a dog and on the other side had half the fa ce of a child. There have been studies done that show that people who are will ing and have a propensity to abuse animals will also be having a higher propensit y to abuse children and other people.

I think that we have to be cognizant of the kinds of practices that we condone and the kinds

646 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 27, 2000 of things that we encou rage through legislation. That is why I am really plea sed that our Government made a comm itment to elimin ate the pra ctice of penned hunting and now we are fo llowing through on it. As I did a little bit of research on just what happens in a penned hunt and to realize what we are talking about, we can have in some cases, some fo rms I have read that have this practice have 500- to 700-acre treed areas. The animal can be raised and then it is actu ally killed and hunted in that same pen.

On the other hand, I have heard that there are penned hunt areas that can be as small as 40 acres. which is approximately the size not much bigger than the grounds fo r this Legisla ture, and there are a mile-by-a mile pens. What essentially is going to happen is the animal is going to get cornered. To me it ends up being more like an execution than a hunt, the animal getting cornered. You have to think of it, this is an animal that was likely raised in that same enclosed area, perhaps became fam iliar with the very captors that are now then auth orizing and even part aking in the hunt.

According to my coll eague fr om Selkir k, they may even have such fam iliarity and comfort, even though they are wild animals, with their captor or the fa rmer that has been raising them that they would show not a lot of fe ar of that particula r person and may willingly just let them in the pen and stand there. That is why I would liken it more to an execution, in a way, than a hunt. [interjection] The Member fo r Lakeside (Mr. Enns) seems to suggest that those are strong words, but I am trying to picture this in my mind what it is like to have an animal in an enclosed area.

The other concern that I have about this, what is going to happen with this legisla tion is that animals will be raised in captivity specifical ly for the purpose of hunting. These will be wild animals; then they will be released, and then they will be hunted. I do not know if that practice is already occurring and if there are going to be regulations that are going to deal with that.

But that is one of the concerns that I have, that there will still be the room. fo r a similar kind of practice to occur. * (11 :40) When we are talking about penned hunting and we are talking about the planned hunting of species like wild boar or bison, we can also consider some of the other practices, the trade in animal parts that goes on.

One of the other things that I do not quite understand is why, on the one hand, there has been a lot of atte ntion to ban the trade in certain animal parts like bear gall bladders, bear paws and other parts. but, at the same time, things like the removal of elk antlers and the sale of elk antler velvet which is very lucrative is allo wed to go ahead. I guess one of the diff erences, as I think about it, is that if you are going to take a bear's gall bladder out, it is going to be dead. The elk that are going to have their antlers taken of f are not.

There are other examples like that, where there seem to be certain animals that the standard is diffe rent as compared to other animals. One of the other issues. fo r exam ple, is the problem of using strychn ine to kill wolves. Again, that is supposed to be prohibited in the province of Manitoba. Of course, it is a very dangerous prac tice to bury such a poisonous chemical in the ground, then hoping that the wolf would eat it. Of course. it is there, exposed, and it has the potential, and usually the result is that it will poison many other animals as we ll and could leach into groundwater and surf ace water.

There are all sorts of problems with that. So it is another example of the kind of approach that is being used to try to deal with wildlif e. One of the other things that I was interested in looking at when I was looking at other practices related to penned hunting is the whole issue of elk ranching. I know that has also been a matter of debate here in the province. You look at the fa ct that, along with the velvet sales which fe tch between $80 to $100 per pound la st year, the antlers which weigh 20 to 25 pounds can fe tch as much as $1 ,000 per acre, net.

I think that when you look, too, at the fa ct that the breeding market is strong with a cow on the average costing $15, 000 to $20,000 and a velve t-produc ing bull $2,500 to $4,000, the value of the animals infla ted due to supply and

April 27, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 647 deman d-I am reading from an

article here. I wanted to see how much money basically was potenti ally to be made fr om the initial invest ment. I cannot find the page. Anyway, I guess the point that I am coming to is that the purpose and the whole job of the now Department of Conservation is to protect and regulate industries fo r wildl ife. It is not there to sort of encourage wildlif e to become industrialized. I think that, when you look at issues like the way the fo rmer government expanded the elk capture fo r elk ranching in one year, they expanded it drama tically in one year because previously there had been an unsuccessf ul capture.

There had been a fe w deaths, but there were so many animals captured the next year, which was a threat to the entire population. The result of those large numbers of elk being captured and not being managed very well was that there were a number of elk that died in the capture because, particularly, the bulls were so traumatized and were so aggre ssive when they were captured that they ended up getting into fig hts and there were a number of injuries.

Again, to think of placing a wild an imal in that kind of situation, an animal that has never been captured bef ore , to be put in that situation with a number of other animals, particularly animals that they usually are not in close contact with-I would think that bucks are not usual ly in close contact with other bucks -to have that kind of a situation that is so not in keeping with the natural way that these animals would interact, I think that is a real cause fo r concern.

Again, to do that as a way simply of trying to tum wild animals into a profit-making venture and actually have them far med, I have a lot of concerns about that. Mr Speaker in the Chair That is why I was making the point that the job of the department of natural resources is to protect wildlif e, to regulate legal hunting and to ensure there is not poaching, and those kinds of things. It is not to industrialize wildlif e and create the fu rther sort of industrializ ation and fu rther exploit ation of wildlif e.

I want to go back to the point I made at the beginning, which was that the fo rmer government for over a year maintained that penned hunting in Manitoba was ill egal. I am curious to know what happened. I am curious to understand what happened. An Honourable Member: Well, we thought it was, but we were not quite sure. Ms. Cerilli: I am wondering, as the Member fo r Lakeside (Mr. Enns) is saying, that they thought it was, but they were not quite sure. What happened? They went and got a legal opinion? Did you have lawyers take a year to actually review the legislation?

What was it that showed that there was this problem with The Wildl ife Act and that, as long as species were not indigenous to Manitoba, you could capture them and have them raised and hunted in this fa shion? An Honourable Member: Well, fo r one thing, a species like bison was never listed as wildlif e. Ms. Cerilli: I think that is important, and I am interested to hear that the Member fo r Lakeside is saying that species like bison were never listed as wildlif e. I said earlier, it amazes me that that has been one of the main species that has been involved in these penned hunts.

Now, with this exemption, I would think fo r sure that is not going to be allo wed, but even previous to that, bison are the prov incial symbol. They were here long before any of us were, our ancestors, or even our species. I would think that they certainly are indigenous to Manitoba, and I do not quite understand why they have ever been able to be included as one of the species that are involved in penned hunts.

But I want to go back to this point of having a government go fo r that period of time saying that something is illegal, having the practice continue and flourish, and then having to come back and say, well, there is this grey area. I hope that we will hear fr om the members opposite and will get some expla na tion of how that occurred and why we are in this situation where we are having to bring in Bill 5 to close that loophole and to do something that in government the members opposite said that they did not support, said was ille gal, but did expand and grow and continue on here in the province.

648 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 27, 2000 Mr. Speaker, I wonder if you could let me know how much time I have left? Mr. Speaker: Fifteen minutes. * (11 :50) Ms. Cerilli: Okay. The other thing that has been raised with me in terms of Bill 5 by some of my constituents was the concern that with wildlif e including now in its definition "exotic animals" that they no longer were going to be able to have pets and similar reptiles or other creatures as pets.

I know that we had to look at this, and we have been assured that unless they are going to have people over to their house to hunt those animals that they can en joy their pets. They can keep their parro ts. It is interesting to note though that parrots often can live to be a hundred years old. So, people who have exotic birds like that should make plans to will those birds to children or even gran dchildren, because parrots live fo r an awful long time. Simila rly, other exotic pets that are kept in Manitoba are not going to be aff ected by this legisla tion.

I know that has been one of the concerns that has been brought up with the Minister. I think it is interesting to learn about the number of diffe rent kinds of organiza tions that have responded to the introduction to this legislation. I do not know if I knew bef ore this legisla tion that there was a parrot owners association in Manitoba and a number of other groups. I guess, we will hear from �orne of them at the public consul tation on this bill and will hear any concerns that they have. I imagine that we will also hear fr om the penned hunt owners, the operators of these type of fa rms at the public hearings.

I do not know if I will be on the comm ittee fo r this par ticular bill, but I am interested in this type of issues and look fo rward to them having the opportunity to present their case. I think it is important that we did notify people during the election that we were going to make this change, realizing that it will af fe ct a small percentage of people in Manitoba very directly. With those comments, I will conclude my remarks and look fo rward to seeing this bill become enacted. Thank you. Mr. Harry Schellenberg (Rossmere): Mr. Speaker, I rise to speak on Bill 5, The Wildlif e Amendment Act.

I take great interest in this act because I grew up in rural Manitoba, and theref ore I appreciate hunting and the outdoors. People who grew up in the Prairies have an appreciation and respect fo r wildlif e and en joy the outdoors and en joy hunting. Hunting is an activity that man has depended on fo r his liveli hood over the centu ries. In Manitoba, hunting was the livelih ood of the First Nations people and the early settlers. However, the meaning of "hunting" was based on fa ir pla y and animals had a chance to escape. Placing animals in a cage and shooting them is not hunting.

Hunting in captivity is very disgusting. In fa ct, if animals are in a pen or a cage, the hunter knows where the animals are and the hunter does not have to hunt fo r his prize. This is not hunting by my definition of the word. This also does not show respect fo r wildlif e and simply is unethical treatment of wildl ife species. During the last prov incial el ection we were comm itted to ending the pract ice of penned hunting, because it exceeds the legitima te agricultural and commercial use of wildlif e. Penned hunting runs counter to our approach to sustaining and enhancing wildl ife population in Manitoba.

We will continue to support legitima te hunting activities, and we will enhance opportunities fo r wildlif e species to thrive and grow. This can be done through greater protection of the natural habitat and greater cons ervation of the resources that our wildlif e population depend on, so our approach is quite diffe rent here. Our approach is to move away fr om penned hunting and support the natural habitat of our wildlif e. During the election we were committed to developing an ecotourism strategy that would bring economic development and environm ental education together in a sustainable way.

We realize that wildl ife population with a strong habitat is important to tourism and economic development. We support a hunting industry but not a penned hunting industry, though. That is where we vary. We fe el hunting wildl ife is very important to our tourism, to industry, to sports

April 27, 2000 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 649 and so fo rth, ther efore we have great support fo r wildlif e hunting. I realize that the Opposition members do not seem to be prepared to speak on this bill, on this issue. They are very silent at this point. No one has said that but just an observation. The Opposition is not speaking on the bill. I would like to hear what they have to say on this issue. I appreciate what the Member fo r Interla ke (Mr. Nevakshonof

f) said here, the Member fo r Radisson (Ms. Cerilli) said, fr om Dauphin Roblin (Mr. Struthers), it is very educational, but I would like to hear what the members opposite have to say on this bill. Why are they not speaking on this bill? The fo rmer government seemed to look the other way when penned hunting was mentioned and they did their best, it seemed that way, to avoid the penned hunting issue. In fa ct, I am inf ormed penned hunting was allowed to flourish under the fo rmer government; however, I hear they have changed their policy. At the present time it seemed they support Bill 5.

The passing of this bill will respect the values and traditions of Manitoba and also respect wildlif e. I would like to address some of the concerns of exotic animal owners. There is a concern that the government will use the opportunity to impose additional regulation on exotic animals. Some of my constituents have shown concern about that, but the bill will not aff ect exotic animals that are not hunted as has been pointed out this morning. There is no fe ar there. The bill will only prohibit the hunting of captive, native, exotic wildl ife.

A person who possesses exotic wildl ife and who is not or does not intend to hunt them will not be aff ected. Ranching is another issue that has come fo rward recently. The question: Will this legisla tion af fe ct ranching such as elk ranching, or you could say elk fa rm ing? Well, appare ntly Bill 5 will not affe ct it at all. There are other concerns about elk ranching that have been pointed out to me. Some of these elk fa rms or elk ranches where the animals are semi domesticated, there could be diseases there and these could be passed on to the elks that live in the wild, that are fr ee.

So there are all kinds of concerns about wildlif e. How will this aff ect wildlif e? What will it be like 10 , 20 years down the road? Whenever we interf ere with Mother Nature , we must be very, very caref ul. There could be devasta ting ef fe cts down the road. I would like to point out that ranching will not be aff ected by this legisla tion. Only penned hunting will be aff ected. That is what we want to change; that is what we said in our last election. That was a commitment we made, and we fe el it is disgusting to have penned hunting in our prov ince.

This penned hunting does not show respect to wildl ife or to Mother Nature, and that is what many environmentalists, many people in our province have pointed out to us. It should not just be profits. We should look at the values and traditions of Manitobans' respect fo r wild lif e, respect for nature . That is the whole key of Bill S. I would in conclusion just say that I would like to hear members opposite. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. When this matter is again bef ore the House, the Honourable Member will have 32 minutes remaining.

The hour being 12 p.m., I am leaving the Chair with the understa nding that the House will reconvene at 1 :30 p.m.

LEGISL ATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA ORDERS OF THE DA Y Debate On Second Readings Bill 5-The Wildlif e Amendment Act Stru thers Nevakshonoff Cerilli Schel lenberg Thursday, April 27, 2000 CONTENTS 631 637 643 648

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