Manitoba Hansard — 29 April 1980 (Sitting 49A, 31st Legislature, 4th Session)

31-4-49a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

ISSN 0542-5492 Fourth Session - Thirty-First Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 29 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Harry E. Graham Speaker VOL. XXVlll No. 49A - 2:00 p.m. , THURSDAY, 1MAY, 1980 Printed by W. T.Malwichyna. Ouaens Printer. Province of Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty - First Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, A. R. (Pete) ANDERSON, Bob BANMAN, Hon. Robert (Bob) BARROW, Tom BLAKE, David BOSTROM, Harvey BOYCE, J. R. (Bud) BROWN, Arnold CHERNIACK, Q.C., Saul CORRIN, Brian COSENS, Hon. Keith A. COWAN, Jay CRAIK, Hon. Donald W. DESJARDINS, Laurent L. DOERN, Russell DOMINO, Len DOWNEY, Hon. Jim DRIEDGER, Albert EINARSON, Henry J. ENNS, Hon. Harry J. EVANS, Leonard S. FERGUSON, James R. FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GALBRAITH, Jim GOURLAY, Hon. Doug GRAHAM, Hon. Harry E.

GREEN, Q.C., Sidney HANUSCHAK, Ben HYDE, Lloyd G. JENKINS, William JOHNSTON, Hon. J. Frank JORGENSON, Hon. Warner H. KOVNATS, Abe LYON, Hon. Sterling R. MacMASTER, Hon. Ken MALINOWSKI, Donald McBRYDE, Ronald McGILL, Hon. Edward McGREGOR, Morris McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., Hon. Gerald W. J. MILLER, Saul A. MINAKER, Hon. George ORCHARD, Hon. Donald PARASIUK, Wilson PAWLEY, Q.C., Howard PRICE, Hon. Norma RANSOM, Hon. Brian SCHROEDER, Vic SHERMAN, Hon. L. R. (Bud) STEEN, Warren URUSKI, Billie USKIW, Samuel WALDING, D. James WESTBURY, June WILSON, Robert G. Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfield La Verendrye Flin Flan Minnedosa Rupertsland Winnipeg Centre Rhineland St. Johns Wellington Gimli Churchill Riel St. Boniface Elmwood St. Matthews Arthur Emerson Rock Lake Lakeside Brandon East Gladstone River Heights Kildonan Dauphin Swan River Birtle-Russell lnkster Burrows Portage la Prairie Logan Sturgeon Creek Morris Radisson Charleswood Thompson Point Douglas The Pas Brandon West Virden Roblin Osborne Seven Oaks St. James Pembina Transcona Selkirk Assiniboia Souris-Killarney Rossmere Fort Garry Crescentwood St. George Lac du Bonnet St.

Vital Fort Rouge Wolseley Party NOP PC PC NOP PC NOP NOP PC NOP NOP PC NOP PC NOP NOP PC PC PC PC PC NOP PC PC PC PC PC PC Ind NOP PC NOP PC PC PC PC PC NOP NOP PC PC PC PC NOP PC PC NOP NOP PC PC NOP PC PC NOP NOP NOP Lib PC

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, 1 May, 1980 Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. SPEAKER, Hon. Harry E. Graham (Bir tle Russell): The Honourable Membe r for Crescentwood. MR. WARREN STEEN: Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of The Regent Trust Company, praying for the passing of

An Act to amend

An Act incorporating The Regent Trust Company. Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Charleswood Curling Club Ltd., praying for the passing of

An Act to Grant Additional Powers to Charleswood Curling Club. READING AND RECEIVING PETTIONS MR. CLERK: Petition of George Kent Gooden and others , praying tor the passing of

An Act to Incorporate Brandon University Foundation. Petition of lngibjorg E. A. Hawes and George W. Hawes, praying for the passing of

An Act for the Relief of lngibjorg Elizabeth Alda Hawes and George Wilfred Hawes. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Membe r for Roblin. MR. J. WALLY McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the first report of the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources. MR. CLERK: Your Committee met on Tuesday, April 29, 1980 to consider the Annual Report of the Manitoba Telephone System. Mr. Br own was appointed as Chairman. Your Committee also met on Thursday, May 1, 19 80 for consideration of the Annual Report.

Your Committee received all information desired by any member from Mr. Gordon Holland, Chairman, and members of the staff of Manitoba Telephone System with respect to all matters pertaining to the Annual Report and the business of the Manitoba Telephone System. The fullest opportunity was accorded to all members of the Committee to seek any information desired. Your Committee examined the Annual Report of the Manitoba Telephone System for the fiscal year ending March 31, 19 79 and adopted the same as presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: Mr.

Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Rock Lake, that report of the committee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minis ter of Economic Development. HON. J. FRANK JOHNSTON (Sturgeon Creek): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to table the Order for Return No. 4, requested by the Honourable Member for Brandon East on April 3, 1980. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . . INTRODUCTION OF BILLS MR. GARY FILMON (River Heights) introduced Bill No. 52,

An Act to amend, revise and consolidate

An Act respecting the Congregation Shaarey Zedek. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. HOWARD PAWLEY (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, we've heard from media reports that the budget is to be handed down on May 13 th. I wonder if the First Minister would like to confirm the media reports of last evening and this morning to that effect. MR. SPEAKEfl: The Honourable First Minister. HON. STERLING R. LYON (Cha rleslwood): Mr. Speaker, as with most media reports, I can't confirm the accuracy of that report.

I can confirm to my honourable friend that the budget, as my colleague the Minister of Finance, indicated a week or so ago will be brought in before the referendum date in Quebec. MR. PAWLEY: I gather from that the Honourable First Minister is avoiding the 13th in view of the . . . Mr. Speaker, further to the First Minister, would the First Minister undertake to file the Memorandums of Intention pertaining to the development agreements re the potash mine in St. Lazare and the proposed mine in Flin Flon involving government equity. MR. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, I'll have to take that as notice on behalf of my colleague, the Minister of Energy. I don't anticipate that there should be any problem but to be safe I'll take it as notice and consult with him. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Spe aker, the day before yesterday I posed a question to the Minister of Economic Development pertaining to the 3117

Thursday, 1 May, 1980 announcement of the transfer of the accounting offices involving 50-some employees, half a million dollars in payroll, of Beaver Lumber from Winnipeg to Toronto. The Minister of Economic Development advised that he would be meeting with the company. Would the Minister advise as to his success or lack of success involving his discussions with Beaver Lumber? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Economic Development. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I did not say that I would be meeting with them; I said I would have it followed up. I believe that's what I said.

The Deputy Minister of Economic Development was in touch with the, I believe, the president of Beaver Lumber in Toronto. Beaver Lumber, although their head office is registered in Manitoba has had their actual operating head office and executive offices in Toronto for a long time. In fact, it's on Beaver Square and I've called there personally when I was a manufacturer's agent and they did all their buyers and everything were in Toronto. They are moving the accounting department because it's a computerized accounting situation and there is no reason to have two. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to say that the encouraging part about the announcement from Beaver Lumber is that they are opening up in Manitoba merchandising buyers that will be able to buy Manitoba-made products from Manitoba companies without them having to travel to Toronto, as I used to, to be able to have to do to sell Beaver Lumber something. I can say to you, Mr.

Speaker, that says that as an old salesman and somebody that's been in the business world, unlike the gentleman over there, I can tell you that it's very encouraging to the people who sell products in Manitoba to know that they will now not have to go to Toronto to sell that company products. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I assume then that the First Minister was not advised by Beaver Lumber that they were moving because of the certain new ventures that have been undertaken in the last few days that were related to the type of adventures that they denounced, they denounced as adventures, socialist adventures of the last New Democratic Party government 1969-77. Mr.

Speaker, further to the Minister of Economic Development, can the Minister of Economic Development confirm that he is opening up an office in Mexico pertaining to Trade and Commerce which will result in a cost of some 50,000; that he will be travelling to Mexico next week on a three-day mission to open that office? Can he also advise as to whether or not there is not duplication between the functioning and responsibilities pertained to that office and other offices that are presently operating in Mexico by the Canadian government? MR. JOHNSTON: Yes, I am going to open the office, Mr. Speaker.

No, there is no duplication. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MRS. JUNE WESTBURY: Mr. Speaker, a question to the Honourable Minister of Economic Development. Would the Minister confirm that of the 10 products which he described at his conference as being developed and manufactured entirely in Manitoba, three of them were developed outside of Manitoba, that is, in Minnesota, Kitchener, Ontario and in Toronto? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Economic Development. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, the gentleman that wrote the

article also used semantics. If they want to use the word was as far as Schneider is concerned, I guess that could be regarded as something that might have been wrong. There were two words wrong in the 10, and I looked over my speech very well. Schneider's dried beef sausage of various types have been manufactured in several continents and in many countries for centuries. Schneider's head office is in Kitchener, Ontario; dried sausage manufacture is a very technical and time-consuming process to be done in a specialized plant .

They moved the specialized operation to Manitoba in 1 970 and since that time this plant has upgr aded, done all the design and technical work, to the Hot Rod that is presently sold. If they want to use semantics, Mr. Speaker, they can. This is from Mr. Settler of Harco, and at no time in my speech, Mr. Speaker, did I use the word invent. Those electrodes were ( 1) 5 percent of the production of Harco, was that electrode that we were speaking of that they mentioned was in Ontario; 95 percent of their work was designed in this province and by Manitobans. I might also say, Mr.

Speaker, that the one that was spoken about in the paper, agreed it was invented by some doctors in Toronto but the design that put it into the shape to make it a marketable product throughout the world was done by Manitobans in Manitoba. If the honourable person - or not the honourable person, the stupid person who wrote the

article - really wants to tear down Manitobans, he can, but I take pride in praising Manitobans for their accomplishments. Mr. Speaker, to further answer the question, there were three and I'll give her the third one. The word engineered, as far as L & M Manufacturing was concerned, could be construed as technically wrong. But, Mr. Speaker, the man who owns L & M said that there's no better place to be than the province of Manitoba, because of Manitobans.

When he goes out and sells a radiator, or his salesmen go out across Canada selling a radiator that's 10 by 10, which I said in my speech and I've seen them, they sit down with a customer and they design the need of the customer; but the engineering drawings happen to be done in the head office; but the production design of the plant is designed by Manitobans in Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, I make no apologies for praising Manitobans. MRS. WESTBURY: Mr. Speaker, in that case, why did the Minister not select 10 products that had been totally developed and invented and processed in the 3118

Thursday, 1 May, 1980 province of Manitoba, instead of having to make false remarks about some of these products that are partially completed or partially developed in the provice? Was it not possible to find 10 products which had been invented and developed? I could take him to places where he could find some products. MR. JO HNSTON: Mr . Speaker, I could have mentioned a 1,000 good products that were made in the pr ovince of Manitoba by Manitobans, Mr . Speaker, and again, I'm not ashamed to be proud of Manitobans. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge with a final supplementary. MRS. WESTBURY: Mr.

Speaker, then would the Minister explain to the House why he selected three products on which he had to give wrong information at his conference? -(Interjections)- MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please, order please. The question is repetitive. The Honourable Member for lnkster. MR. SIDNEY GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Honourable the Minister of Natural Resources. Would the Minister care to table the plan which automatically comes into operation when we are facing drought conditions?

Would he table it for the House so that all Manitobans can know about this automatic plan that comes into effect when there is a drought approaching? MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. BRIAN RANSOM (Sour is-Kil larney): Mr.

Speaker, I'm pleased to be able to confirm that my department, along with the Department of Agriculture, have done the necessary ground work and made the necessary preliminary decisions to put plans of action into place if it became necessary to undertake some activity, for instance, to enhance the water supplies for some communities or to provide means to increase the amount of water in farmers' dugouts. We have this sort of thing, the basic planning in hand, Mr. Speaker. Should it become necessary to implement that sort of thing, then we will be able to do so.

I think the honourable member is probably aware that there is no legislative base for such organization. It's simply done in the course of the work of the departments. I can also say, Mr. Speaker, that we are in the process of attempting to get the federal gove rnment to agr ee to a drought sensitivity program, which has been under negotiations for some time now, which would allow us to develop long-term strategy to deal with drought that might develop over a period of time. Part of that agr eement, Mr.

Speaker, would be to pr ovide additional water supply for the town of Morden and certainly we are hopeful that the federal government will soon be able to see fit to sign the agreement. MR. GREEN: Mr . Speaker, I wonder whether it wouldn't be wise, Mr. Speaker, without legislation - because it is not necessary - for the Cabinet to set up a committee of Ministers and officials to consider all of the possibilities with regard to drought conditions and all of the possibilities as to how they can be alleviated because, Mr. Speaker, this proved to be a very useful mechanism when we last faced this situation.

I am asking the Minister whether it wouldn't be useful to have such a committee set up and operating now on an ongoing basis; and if it is set up, Mr. Speaker, would the Minister care to consider the work that was done by the previous committee the last time we were facing drought conditions, because I'm sure it would be useful? MR. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker, I do appreciate the honourable member's concern and I also appreciate the work that was done, I believe in 19 77, when asimilar situation was developing and at that time there was a special interdepa rtmental committee formed which did some preliminary planning for action that might have to have been taken, had the drought persisted longer. That sort of planning and information is still in place, Mr. Speaker, so that the work of that committee, which was necessary at that time, is there for us to benefit from today. I have had discussions with my staff.

We are quite aware of the weather conditions that are prevailing now. We're aware of what types of actions might have to be taken. Should the situation continue to get worse, then we will be putting together the necessary mechanism to deal with it. Just by way of interest and response to the question, Mr. Speaker, I can confirm that historically when there has been a dry period during April of the nature that we have experienced now, that historically it has turned out that both May and June have been considerably wetter.

I think, on that basis, we can take some hope, at least, that this sort of situation will not prevail for much longer. MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Member for lnkster with a final supplementary. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, when the Minister is considering historical periods with regard to drought conditions, does he limit his consideration to between '56 and '59, such as he does with flooding around Carman, or does he take into effect all historical history to determine what drought conditions we can expect? MR. RANSON: Mr.

Speaker, I know that the honourable member is driving at an action that our government has taken that I consider to be a very responsible action to provide flood protection to towns such as Carman, along with many others, but the honourable gentleman is confusing an issue of runoff, from which I can advise him that floods result, as opposed to a situation where precipitation falls from the atmosphere. MR. SP EAKER: The Honourable Member for lnkster with a fourth question. MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, I would like the Honourable the Minister to table whatever engineering advice he has to the effect that flood conditions around Carman result from runoff from 3119

Thursday, 1 May, 1980 the fields. I wish he would give the House that engineering advice. MR. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, such a question I find rather astounding in that I would believe that such truths would be self-evident. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon East. MR. LEON ARD S. EVANS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to address a question, as a follow-up to the Member for Fort Rouge, to the Minister of Economic Development, with respect to his announcement yesterday of ten new products developed and put on the Manitoba market that he wished to highlight. Is it correct, Mr.

Speaker, that seven of the ten products were on the market and developed before October 19 77 and does that indicate that there has been some fall-off or some decline in new product development since October of 19 77? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Economic Development. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, this is unbelievable. At no time in my speech yesterday did I have any discussion about the timing of when these products were produced. We spoke yesterday about Manitobans and what Manitobans have accomplished and we have pride in it. The speech crossed party lines.

We were trying to say that Manitobans have accomplished great things in Manitoba. I don't know when they were accomplished and nor do I care, Mr. Speaker, and if he wants to bring the political attitude into the whole thing that we're trying to do at Manitoba, let him. MR. EVANS: I'm pleased to hear that all of a sudden our Minister of Economic Development is a non-partisan type. Mr. Speaker, I believe that at this particular luncheon there was a major statement made, according to the new reports at least, Mr. Speaker, that the Minister outlined the Manitoba government's economic development strategy.

So I would like to ask the Minister whether the MLAs of this Legislature were invited to hear him make that statement. In addition, my question would be why would he not make such a major statement indeed if the reports are true, the outline of a major economic development program; why would that statement not be made in the Manitoba Legislature? MR. JOHNSTON: Because it was made at lunch yesterday at the Convention Centre, that's why it wasn't made in the Manitoba Legislature, Mr. Speaker. MR. EVANS: Mr.

Speaker, I wish the Honourable Minister would get his priorities straight instead of announcing secondhand OREE announcements here, taking up the time of the House with federal announcements; and instead use this House, and the time of the question period and statement period, to issue worthwhile, I hope worthwhile, policy statements. So I'd appreciate, Mr. Speaker, and I would ask the Minister, if he would consider being so kind to issue a copy of that statement to each member of the House for their perusal and for their reference. I would like to ask another question.

Well, the question is, would he in the kindness of his heart consider giving a major policy statement on Economic Development to the members of this House? I assume it was a major economic policy statement. I'd like to ask the Honourable Minister - and this is a follow-up to a question asked by the Leader of the Opposition regarding the office that is to be set up in the city of Mexico - the Minister stated that there was no duplication.

Is the Minister now suggesting that the federal government has closed down its federal trade office, which also looks after tourism matters, is he suggesting that the federal government no longer is looking after the interests of Canadians, including Manitobans, around the world? And therefore, are we going to be spending provincial taxpayers' money to duplicate taxpayers' money that is being paid through the federal system to set up an office which will totally duplicate what's going to be done by the federal government? -(Interjection)- MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day.

The Honourable Minister of Economic Development. MR. JOHNSTON: They have, Mr. Speaker, the opposition when they were in government, had a man down there that the Member for Brandon East visited quite regularly. I might say, Mr. Speaker, that the first question, I believe, is about my major policy statement. I don't know that we call it a major policy statement; we spoke of it as the economic development plans for the province of Manitoba in the future . They were outlined in the speech yesterday and I will be so kind as to give the honourable member a copy of my speech. I like to be congenial at all times, Mr.

Speaker. The answer to the second question, Mr. Speaker, is no, the federal government has not closed up and my answer to the Leader of the Opposition is the same to the Member for Brandon East; we don't feel it's a duplication. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon East with a fourth question. MR. EVANS: Well, Mr. Speaker, the Honourable Minister referred to my making several trips to Mexico City. I can advise him I had one opportunity to visit Mexico City in connection with some industry and commerce business, one trip. But, Mr. Speaker, on the matter of the office - because, Mr.

Speaker, I think there's a question of wise use of taxpayers money - while the department used to have a travelling salesman with the Manitoba Training Corporation, there was never an office with all the MR. SPEAKER: Order. Order please. Order please. I suggest to the honourable member that perhaps he save his remarks for the debating time in the House rather than the question period. The Honourable Member for Brandon East. 3120

Thursday, 1 May, 1980 MR. EVANS: This was a preface to my question, Mr. Speaker, and I would ask the Honourable Minister to reconsider this expenditure because I would suggest to him, and I would ask him, to reconsider whether the cost will indeed be 50,000, or perhaps more like 15 0,000 or whatever, and that is it not truly a duplication of services already offered by the federal Department of Industry, Trade and Commerce which has already been paid for by the taxpayers of this province? MR. JOHNSTON: For the third time, no, Mr. Speaker, we don't regard it as a duplication of the federal government.

In fact, the federal government people have welcomed Manitoba to come into the Mexico area. That office will be used by business people if they come to us. In fact, a man yesterday, after that announcement was made, said, Mr. Johnston, can you make an appointment through your office for me to take my products to Mexico, and I said, We sure will. Mr. Speaker, I apologize if the honourable member didn't make several trips. If I was wrong, I'm wrong. So, Mr.

Speaker, I might add that the only criticism I've heard from the business people, or somebody, about opening the office in Mexico, comes from the Member for Brandon East. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. RUSSELL DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the First Minister concerning a question he took as notice a few weeks ago, about the high rent or leasing increases in the Clear Lake region of Manitoba.

In view of the fact that the President of the association has indicated that the Environment Minister has indicated he cannot put off the increases for a one-year moratorium; and in view of the fact that the Employment and Immigration Minister has said - or at least he didn't say it but the head of the association said - that they're not listening to him in Ottawa, this is two strikes and as is well known, three strikes and you're out. I just wanted to ask the Premier whether he has been able to check into this and bring his good offices to bear on behalf of the cottage owners in the Clear Lake region. MR.

SPEAKER: Order . Order please. May I suggest to the honourable member that the rules of our House are well known and it is not proper to be reading a newspaper in this Chamber. I believe the member has a newspaper on his desk. The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Well, Mr. Speaker, I'll repeat my question.

In view of the fact that two federal Ministers have apparently struck out in terms of a moratorium of the rent or leasing increases in the Clear Lake region, can the First Minister give us any encouraging news and can he report on what he has undertaken in terms of attempting to reduce these massive increases? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, I'll have to double-check with the office to ascertain the latest information in response to my honourable friend's question.

I can only say, by way of preliminary information, underlining what he has so properly said, that the advice that was apparently proffered by the federal Minister of Immigration to the leaseholders that they should not pay the rent, was indeed bad bad advice. To the best of my knowledge and information most of the leaseholders in the National Park have fortunately not taken that advice and have gone ahead and paid the higher rents as they were laid down in this Order-in-Council or in this Administrative Order from the federal government.

But I will endeavour to get the up-to-date information for my honourable friend. MR. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Cultural Affairs concerning the proposed ill-fated Ukrainian Art Show that was planned by the Winnipeg Art Gallery, in what was obviously going to be a major cultural event and what has obviously been a casualty of the present cold war, I would ask her whether she has looked into this matter in an attempt to protect the Winnipeg Art Gallery for any expenditures that they may have incurred, to ensure that they don't run any additional deficits or suffer in their programming as a result of any expenditures. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Cultural Affairs. HON. NORMA PRICE (Assiniboia): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The contemplated show from the Soviets was cancelled by the government of Canada. They withheld their funds through External Affairs and the transportation costs, as part of the policy to stop any sports or cultural programs that had been planned in the future. I believe any costs that would have been incurred would have been through the government of Canada. MR.

DOERN: Could the Minister indicate whether, given an improvement which I hope would take place in the next six to twelve months, given an improvement in the international climate, is it possible that the show could be mounted, say, a year from now? MRS. PRICE: Yes, Mr. Speaker, the show wasn't only slated for Winnipeg; it was right across Canada. In all the major cities it was contemplated, so I'm sure that at the first opportunity it will be resumed. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Johns. MR. SAUL CHERNIACK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I'd like to ask the Honourable First Minister whether he is able to report to us in connection with his undertaking of a month-and-a-half ago, on March 14 th, to investigate amongst his departments, Crown agencies and other agencies of government as to whether or not there have been any opinion polls taken on their behalf. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. 3121

Thursday, 1 May, 1980 MR. LYON: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I can indicate that the polling of the . . . It's probably an improper verb. The requests to the departments for this information are now all in. The indication that has been given to me by the staff is that there has been no polling; there may be one small caveat with respect to a sampling of information taken by one department concerning products of some sort, but I'll get the detail of that. The answer to the question is that there has been no polling undertaken of the kind that I believe my honourable friend was referring to, taken in the province of Ontario.

But I'll get the specific caveat just so that I'll be on proper ground in reporting it accurately. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker , I thank the Honourable Minister for his response. I'd like to direct a question to the Honourable Attorney-General to ask him whether he has accepted the responsibility or has delegated the responsibility to the senior staff of his department to participate in the censorship of books for sale in the province. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. GERALD W.J. MERCIER (Osborne): Mr. Speaker, I'd ask the Member for St. Johns to clarify that particular question. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Johns. MR. CHERNIACK: Gladly, Mr. Speaker; I thought he might be aware of it. There is a report in the newspaper, the Winnipeg Free Press, today that seniorCrown counsel, Wayne Myshkowsky has stated, and I quote as they quote, relating to the request by police that certain books be removed from the shelves of two retail stores, the quote is, Winnipeg isn't ready for it. We have the Court of Appeal's view on homosexuality; people go to jail for it.

He said the stores could be prosecuted for selling obscene material and he says, We think the law draws a great deal of distinction between heterosexuality and homosexuality. It's more tolerated in heterosexuality. The question more directly is: Without any evidence of any prosecution but an opini on, apparently , of the police and of this Crown prosecutor, that there may be a conflict with the law.

The retail stores were requested to remove books from their shelves and therefore my question is: Does the Attorney-General participate in having books removed from shelves in retail stores without launching a prosecution to establish by the court whether or not they are in conflict with the law? MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I've had no direct involvement with respect to that matter. I'll take the question as notice and enquire into it. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Johns with a final supplementary. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the answer of the Attorney-General.

I would like to request him that he investigate further to see whether there is not a danger involved in having officials request or demand books to be removed from shelves, in general and not related to this kind of a specific but rather related to possibly political material or anything else of a nature which is offensive to the Crown or the prosecutors. MR. MER CIER: Mr. Speaker, in taking that question as notice, too, I would indicate to the Member for St.

Johns that there has been a general concern in different areas of the community that the Crown, indeed, offer an opinion as to whether a matter or a film is obscene or not in their view, so that they could best judge whether or not to film it or sell it. But I'll take the question as notice, Mr. Speaker, and report back later. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, I then have a further supplementary. Will the Minister elucidate whether it is the policy of his department to give legal opinions on material of this type without following it through with prosecutions? MR. MERCIER: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I will report back on that matter. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Kildonan. MR. PETER FOX: Mr. Speaker, I realize that we're discussing censorship and on finding Page 3040 of Hansard, it appears that somebody censored the question period because about half of it is missing. Would you have the staff look at it, Sir, and find the missing tapes and put them in? MR. SPEAKER: Which particular issue? MR. FOX: Volume 47A, Tuesday, April 29, and it's Page 3040. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Transcona. MR. WILSON PARA SIUK: Mr. Speaker , my question is directed to the Minister of Health.

In view of the fact that the doctor at Notre Dame de Lourdes has closed his operation and was denied a request to have a two-week extension of his hospital privileges by the Hospital Board there, and in view of the fact that the people of that community are very concerned about emergency health situations, can the Minister assure the members of the House and the people of Notre Dame de Lourdes that the health needs, especially the emergency health needs, of people in that community will in fact be met by contingency operations put in place by the government? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON.

L.R. (Bud) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Yes, Mr. Speaker, they're not necessarily put in place by the government but the government ensures that they are in place and, if there is a gap in the system, the government would then act. The community is being served in the hospital there and personal care facility are being served as required by physicians from other adjacent communities, or let me qualify that statement by saying if, as and when Doctor MacKay 3122

Thursday, 1 May, 1980 leaves, that will be the case. It's been done in the past when Notre Dame has been without its own practitioner and will be done again. MR. PARASIUK: A supplementary to the Minister, in view of the fact that he promised to assist the town in finding a new doctor, can he report to the House whether he's been successful in his undertaking and commitment to help the town find a new doctor for their hospital? MR. SHERMAN: Not up to this point, Mr. Speaker, but as far as that's concerned, I haven't had a request from Notre Dame that we find them a doctor.

The Board of Notre Dame working in concert with the Manitoba Medical Association and the College of Physicians and Surgeons is pursuing that search. We will be of any assistance we can. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Transcona with a final supplementary. MR. PARASIUK: On a related matter, and on behalf of the constituents of Swan River, could the Minister indicate if he has been successful in the commitment and undertaking he made to the House one full year ago to help find a doctor for the hospital at Benito? Has he been successful in meeting that commitment he made over a year ago? MR.

SHER MAN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, we have established a Standing Committee on Medical Manpower. We are, through that committee, establishing a Placement Bureau of the Manitoba Medical Association; we have signed an amicable two-year agreement with the Manitoba Medical Association which recognizes the professional commitment they bring to medical care in this province; we have signed an agreement that includes a northern differential; we've improved the climate for medical practice generally across the province, and I expect the problem in Benito will be solved as a result, Sir. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Transcona with a fourth question. MR. PARASIUK: Yes, I don't know if the Minister understood my question. I asked him if he would meet the commitment he gave to the House a year ago, to find a doctor in Benito. Given the fluff he just gave us, can he now tell us the name of the doctor in Benito? MR. SHER MAN: Mr. Spea ker, I refer my honourable friend to the ancient fable about the boy who cried 'wolf'. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Transcona with a fifth question. MR. PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker, this item is of dire concern to the people of Benito.

I don't think there is a doctor in Benito by the name of Wolf. I'd like to ask the Minister if he has done anything over the last year, apart from study the matter, to meet the particular hospital and health needs of the people of Benito by finding a replacement doctor for a doctor who left there over a year ago& Has he taken any specific action other than studies? MR. SHERMAN: We have taken and pursued continuing action, Mr.

Speaker, we have met, and I have met personally, with representatives of the community and the municipality; we have met with the medical personnel in Swan River to ensure Benito is covered and we are working through the Standing Committee onMedical Manpower to try to find a permanent practitioner for Benito. Whether that search has been successful up to this moment, I cannot say. They may, in the past few days, have made a decision with respect to a physician there but the effort is continuing and has been. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

I should like to draw the honourable members attention to the gallery on my left, where we have five visitors of an AWCA Neighbours Group from Fort Garry, this is in the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Health. On behalf of all honourable members we welcome you here this afternoon. ORDERS OF THE DAY COMMITTEE MEETINGS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, this afternoon only one committee will meet in the House, tonight at 8:00 o'clock we will revert to two committees, in Room 254 and in the House.

In addition, next week the Public Utilities Committee will meet on Tuesday, at 10:00 a.m. to consider the MPIC Report and Thursday if necessary. When that matter of business is completed then we will go into Committee of Economic Development. Mr. Speaker, tonight at 8:00 o'clock Consumer and Corporate Affairs will be outside the House. Mr.

Speaker I would also advise with respect to the order of the balance of the estimates after Consumer and Corporate Affairs , Finance and Energy and Mines , then Agriculture , Municipal Affairs, Northern Affairs, Economic Development and Tourism, Legislation, Executive Council, Development Agencies, Canada-Manitoba Enabling Vote, Flood Control and General Salary Increases. Mr . Speaker, I would move, seconded by the Minister of Government Services that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider the Supply to be Granted to Her Majesty.

MOTION presented and carried, and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Radisson in the Chair for the Department of Health. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY - HEAL TH MR. CHAIRMAN, Abe Kovnats (Radisson): This Committee will come to order. I would direct the honourable members attention to Page 61 of the Main Estimates, Department of Health, Resolution 3123

Thursday, 1 May, 1980 No. 79, Clause 5, Manitoba Health Services Commission. Item (

b) Personal Care Home Program - pass - the Honourable Member for Transcona. MR. PARASIUK: Mr. Chairperson, this is a fairly large item and it is a pretty significant item of tremendous concern to the people of Manitoba. I thought the Minister might introduce this topic with a bit of a statement. I don't know whether he covered much of it when he introduced his ministerial estimates. If he is in a position to introduce this subject, fine, I'll sit down, otherwise I can proceed, but I don't know if he wants to make a statement. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Chairman, I covered the approach to Personal Care Homes and the Capital Construction Program in the Personal Care Home field in the lengthy introductory statement I made on my estimates.

I'm certainly prepared to attempt to supply the honourable member with any information he requestsand anything I can provide but I don't think it's very useful for me to repeat the statement that I made, both in the Throne Speech Debate and then subsequently in introducing by estimates about the Capital Program and the plans for 255 personal care beds approved in the Capital Program for this year, 16 5 in rural Manitoba and 90 in Winnipeg.

So I think unless the honourable member wants me to repe�t that information, perhaps it would be more productive to listen to what he has to say in his comments on the field in general, I'll attempt to answer his questions. MR. PARASIUK: Yes, I'll give a list of some questions and some material that I'd like to get from the Minister and then I'll proceed with my statements on this matter. I would like to know how the personal care homes themselves are financed; do they receive a per diem? Do they receive a per diem that takes into account the amortization of capital costs?

Do they receive a per diem that takes into account their operating costs? Do the operating costs take into account the different levels of care that are provided to the patients, that is, are they provided on an individual per diem for a level 1 patient and is that per diem different between level 1 patients, level 2 patients and level 3 patients in a personal care home? Are there differences in per diems between private profit-making entities and non-profit entities? Does similar information exist and operating procedures exist for extended care hospitals?

Perhaps the Minister could provide that in the next dfay or so. Mr. Chairperson, this is a very major area in the health care delivery system and we deplore the actions of the government since its election in October '77 in this area; we disagree with the approach that the Minister is relying on in promoting private nursing homes now; we believe that the government is barking up the wrong tree. They froze and cancelled the construction of personal care homes that were needed after October 1977. As a result these personal care homes are needed now more than ever.

We believe that the freeze was unnecessary, the freeze was stupid, it was wasteful and it was expensive. Now the government is trying to undo its past mistakes by lifting the freeze, in part; but the way in which it's lifting its freeze is incompetent.

We'll be able to show political motivations and orientations in it of a crass nature that isn't based on need, and the reliance of the new approach of this government is one where they base the bulk of the provision of personal care homes on the private profit-making investors while slapping non-profit community groups and religious groups right in the face when they've made application to try and expand the personal care home stock. Mr. Chairperson, the freeze in 19 77 was unnecessary because the need was there.

That need was documented; there were long waiting lists, and there was no reason whatsoever to put that type of freeze on while expenditures in other areas that were far less needy were in fact expanded. We've had big expansions in the Department of Economic Development with no impact and we've had tremendous cutbacks in the whole area of personal care home construction with tremendous implications on home care, tremendous implications for personal care, and tremendous implications for our hospital system.

The freeze has plugged up acute care hospital beds which are scarce and expensive with elderly people who don't need that intensive level of care; tHhese people need extended or personal care. As a result, our hospitals aren't operating efficiently; our personal care homes have huge waiting lists; staff are forced to mislead people on the waiting lists as to whether they are on the waiting lists or not; personal care homes are suffering by the freeze.

They are forced to carry, I think for them, abnormally high numbers of high level care patients, when indeed what you want in a personal care home is a good mix of low, medium and high level care patients so that you have a more vibrant community within the personal care home itself. Because of the freeze and because of the shortage of space, there have been so many high level care patients within the personal care homes that they have changed their character; they aren't as vibrant. The older people aren't reinforcing each other as well, and we've got very large problems there.

There have been cutbacks in the quality of food, there have been cutbacks in staff. If one goes around to the nursing homes, deals with them directly, yousee the impact of the cutbacks in terms of patients coming forward talking about the decrease in the quality of food, talking about the decrease in the number of orderlies, talking about the decrease in the number of support staff.

I recall last year going to Tache Nursing Home and finding situations where people couldn't feed themselves properly and were terribly embarrassed because no one was around to help feed them and these people were spilling food all over themselves. To me that's not the way elderly people should live and I am sure that the Minister either isn't aware of the impact of those types of freezes that have been put on the personal care program or if he is he certainly has lost out or hasn't fought hard enough in Cabinet to get the program properly expanded.

Because of cutbacks we've had increasing reports to us, as constituency ombudsmen, from concerned parents about problems where they feel the staff are relying far too much on drugs to sedate patients 3124

Thursday, 1 May, 1980 rather than providing human interaction with them as a substitute for drugs. Drugs indeed are becoming a first resort type of care for people when indeed, if used at all, they should be certainly used as an extreme last resort. This has been a chronic complaint over the course of the last two-and-a-half years. I would hope the Minister would look into this in great depth. It's a difficult one to prove.

It's just that there have been far too many people contacting me, far too many people contacting the people in the media that I've checked who have in fact received complaints of an on-going nature of this type, and it's one that causes great concern to parents and I think rightly so. And I think that is a direct implication of the staff cutbacks and the fact that these nursing homes have had to make do with far less than they really need.

So we have the problems in the personal care homes created by this government and we also have the problems extending on into the hospitals; both are operating at an inefficient level . We have complain after complaint from Concordia, from the Health Sciences Centre, from other hospitals, about the fact that too many of their beds are plugged up with elderly patients who should be elsewhere. There are games being played between doctors and relatives as to whether in fact relatives can come in and pick up elderly relatives of theirs who are in the hospital.

These, in many instances, aren't even close relatives, but the doctors themselves are frantically searching for ways in which they can get some of these elderly people out of the hospitals so that they can use those beds for acute care and for elective surgery that they have on tap. It's not a healthy system, it's not operating well when that happens.

And reports that I have out of the Health Sciences Centre place the number of acute care beds that are plugged up by elderly people, who need extended rather than acute care, as closer to the numbers of 125 or 15 0 rather than the number that the Minister has thrown out, which has been 70.

I've asked the Minister to give us a definition of what he means by acute care and extended care because the doctors have been complaining, and they've complained to the Hall Commission, they've complained to other people about the fact that far too many beds are being plugged up because of insufficient investment on the personal home care side, which is a less expensive way of providing needed and worthy care for the elde rly. That's why I say that the government's freeze and cancellation of personal care homes was both stupid and inexpensive.

Having created the massive problems in both the personal care field and the hospitals, the Minister has now been trying to undo it and the approach he's taken has been one of really recycling old press releases with very little action. I would hope the Minister would look at the statement that he made to the House last year, last March 15 , 19 79.

The Minister said, and this was an announcement on the Seven Oaks Hospital; I think that was the third announcement he had made on the Seven Oaks Hospital but while recycling that announcement, he said: The construction program will renovate and expand some hospitals and will put into place, throughout the province, 12 2 new personal care home beds. This was a year ago and everyone thought, isn't this great; we're finally starting to get a bit of action. Far less than is needed, but at least some action is better than no action.

Well we found out during the course of the year that a great majority of those 12 2 new personal care home beds were going to be provided by the privatesector, and we have the situation where not one of the private sector homes has been built. There has been no additions on the private sector side. They have failed miserably in that area.

They have not provided for the needs of the elderly; they have not relieved the pressure on the hospitals and, to compound the error of last year, the Minister has come forward this year with another announcement of additional personal care home beds again, with very heavy reliance on the private sector. The Minister comes along now and says we're talking about 255 beds and yet I have a press release here dated August 31, 19 79, where he's talking about 370 beds, or 390 - 370 to 390 replacement and additional beds involved.

Now he's scaling that down to 255 and I'm getting confused as to what the real program of the government is with respect to personal home care beds. We need far more than these phantom-type of announcements. If you go to Selkirk, which I did, to look at that particular situation, we have there a private run-down nursing home that has supposedly made a lot of profit over the years, supposedly has been amortizing its costs and it's been bleeding that facility without reinvesting. It's not reinvested any capital, in terms of capital improvements. The condition of that nursing home is terrible. It's decrepit.

You have situations there where I think it's a fire hazard; I think where you have linoleum spread over concrete downstairs and that provides the recreational facility for these elderly people . You have rooms upstairs where there are up to six people in a room, beds lined up in rooms that used to be verandas, that possibly have been insulated, possibly haven't.

And the tragedy is that right across the street from that Selkirk Nursing Home is a hospital that wanted to build a nursing home, that said that we can build a nursing home on the same ground as the hospital; we can take advantage of tacilities that are in the hospital; we can provide an extended level of care and we can do it quite efficiently, and that group was given the go-ahead. It was part of the long-range plans of the previous administration. This government came along, cancelled that particular project and turned the project over to the private group last year, with great announcements, great fanfare.

One year later nothing has happened. The Minister asked his staff to investigate it. I'd like to find out what criteria were used in that investigation; whether indeed linoleum spread over rough concrete in the basement is a good enough way in which to provide for the recreational needs of elderly people because that's what that facility had; whether in fact what criteria were used and whether indeed that facility will begin construction as of June. Because the Minister had made another major statement whereby he said that construction would begin in June for sure. I'd like the Minister to confirm.

Here's the headline, Winnipeg Free Press, February 8, 19 80, June start promised on Selkirk Care Home. We're on May 1st right now; surely he can tell us whether construction will begin in June, under what conditions, and 3125

Thursday, 1 May, 1980 whether indeed other private sector homes which were promised last year are indeed being built and will be built. Can he give us that assurance? Can he give us that confirmation? And secondly, is he now going to proceed with something that he had mentioned at that time, namely, that because the private sector has some difficulty meeting its commitment because it feels it can't make enough profit out of the provision of personal care, even though Mr.

Pollock, who runs the Golden Door Geriatrics Centre - and the Minister can ask the conciliator this - has been quoted as saying that ever since it's been put under medicare it's a pot of gold; whether indeed these private operators aren't in fact trying to milk the system dry without reinvesting properly, because they're squeezing the care on the patients.

But the Minister has believed other people who say that they aren't making enough profit and, as a result, what he has indicated he will do is he will give a per diem differential to private nursing home operators to enable them to make more money than non-profit groups and therefore to, in a sense, induce them to carry out the government's commitment to build, I don't know, 255 beds, 12 2 beds or 370 beds. I don't know anymore because we've had so many different figures bandied about over the last year. The point is, the private sector isn't producing and it will only produce if it makes a big enough return.

It's our position on this side of the House, that if you have non-profit groups ready and willing to undertake the task of providing personal care to elderly people in nursing homes because of their love of humanity rather than their love of a dollar, that it's far better, from a societal point of view, to put your program in their hands to deal with them, to co operate with them, to tie into hospitals which are run on a non-profit basis. These hospitals, and there are a number of them, want to build nursing homes as well.

We feel it's a far better approach to tie in with the non-profit program; to promote it; to keep the freeze on proprietary homes. It works, it's less expensive, you don't have administrators trying to squeeze out an extra dollar. Their whole intent is to provide best value for money in terms of administration. The non-profit administrators that I've seen have been very dedicated people. The non profit groups are very dedicated; they want to make sure the patient gets best value for money. They aren't interested in squeezing something out as an extra profit; their incentives are different.

The Conservative Party talks so muc h about incentives and they do not believe that there are people in society who are prepared to provide health care because of their love of humanity and provide it well. They believe somehow that health care for elderly will better be provided by private investors who provide health care for elderly on the profit motive basis. Which approach is better? I suggest that the non-profit approach is better. The Minister is doggedly pursuing this other approach of promoting the private profit-making nursing homes as more inefficient (sic).

Secondly, it's going to be more expensive, expensive in two ways: You're going to have people constantly trying to refinance those private institutions and they will try and build in that refinancing into the amortization charges that have to be paid for by the Manitoba Health Services Commission. The Minister would like to give us the impression that personal home care, the whole personal home care field, is one where the free market is operating and that's not the case at all.

We have a situation where demand far exceeds supply; we have waiting lists for every personal care home that I know of where you have full occupancy, or virtually full occupancy, apart from some frictional vacancy rates and what you need in that situation is a system that provides health care to the elderly, efficiently, expeditiously and in a way that taps other resources. These private institutions, they don't have a very good network for tapping volunteer effort. They aren't particularly concerned about their particular institutions.

Many of the owners of the private profit-making personal care homes aren't even there. There are some people on the private side who are concerned, who are dedicated, who have run operations, and they are owner-occupants or owner-managers; that's one group, one can have more sympathy for them. But there are another group of owners who treat this as one of five or six investments and all they're looking at is their comparative rates of return, one to the other, and that's the group that I'm concerned. That's the group that seems to be receiving the promotion of the Minister.

I don't know how he's going to explain the refinancing charge; I don't know how he can logically justify differential per diems between private profit making institutions and non-profit institutions. It's more expensive and it's totally and horribly unfair to the non-profit institutions. We have a situation where the Minister is trying to tell us that the waiting lists are decreasing; he's trying to have us believe that although we've had a freeze on the construction of personal care homes, although some personal care home beds have been taken out of circulation , because th ey were condemned, I gather.

That somehow, despite these things happening on the supply side and despite the fact that our population is aging and over the last five years we've had a 15 percent increase in the number of people 65 and over; that despite those statistical facts that somehow magically the waiting list for personal care homes has decreased, that's the position that the Minister has been taking. Well, I want the Minister to explain why the government has changed the way in which the waiting lists are treated. When the New Democratic Party government was in office there was one waiting list for personal care homes.

Now there apparently are three waiting lists: one is called the high priority list, the other is called the medium priority list and the third is called the low priority list.

I'd like to know who makes those decisions between low, medium and high or emergency priority lists; I'd like to know which ones are published; I'd like to get the breakdown for Winnipeg and Manitoba between those three lists; I'd like the Minister to indicate what used to exist prior to October, '77, because there are big differences there; I'd like the Minister to indicate to us what are the relative percentages in nursing homes of the three levels of care? I believe there are three levels of care, level one, two and three. One is hostel, I think, requiring, what is it? .5 hours of nursing care per day.

I think the other is personal care which averages 2 and 1/ 2 hours of nursing care per day. 3126

Thursday, 1 May, 1980 The other is extended care, patients which require more than 3 and 1/ 2 hours of nursing care per day. In the past nursing homes tried to get some optimum mix of these three levels and I'd like the Minister, he must have these types of statistics, indicate to us what the percentages of those different levels are and how they've changed over the last three years. Because, to me, that will be a very good indication of the change in the type of patients and the mix of patients within the nursing homes. The nursing homes tell me that they are having a much higher percentage.

It varies from nursing home to nursing home but they say that the percentage of high level care patients has increased dramatically putting tremendous pressures on them and really changing the complexion of that personal care home. I think the sociological and psychological dimensions of a personal care home are important as well. I think elderly people have to mix with each other and that isn't happening well enough.

It's not going to happen when you start putting in only your high level care patients and you don't have lower level care patients there to provide for some of the needs and provide companionship to other people and that's not happening under this particular program. I'd like the Minister to indicate whether indeed any attempt has been made over the last three years to carry on with the program that was being developed by the previous administration of providing enriched senior citizens housing often on the same grounds in proximity to nursing homes.

And what I'm talking about is a situation which would provide a level of care in between that provided in personal care homes and that provided in senior citizens' homes but which would allow for something quite critical to occur, namely, the preservation of a family unit. What happens right now is that many elderly patients require personal care, they are panelled, they wait and wait and wait to get in. Finally, they're allowed to get into a personal care home but can't take their spouse with them.

In that situation you have a wrenching of a family that has existed for a very long time where both these people have come to rely and depend on each other . A way in which to deal with that, Mr. Chairperson, is to provide for enriched senior citizens housing. Provide for it so that you can have couples living together and the person requiring the extra care can tap into the facilities and services available in the personal care home, receive that extra care, and yet be able to live in proximity to his or her spouse. It's a big gap that exists in our set of facilities and programs relating to elderly people.

I know the previous administration was working on it. I know there were plans in place and discussions taking place with hospitals on this, with nursing homes on this, and since that time nothing has happened.

There is no creativity whatsoever within this government in trying to pick out gaps and fill them so that people who I think face the terrible uncertainty and insecurity of old age and can in fact face that insecurity with a lot more confidence that they can move from one state of their existence to another state smoothly, without being terrified that you may not be able to get into a nursing home for nine months, or twelve months. Because the point is when you need a nursing home, when you pass a panel, that's not the time to be put on the waiting list; that's the time to be put into the nursing home.

And the government is setting things up in such a way that you are put on a waiting list after you've reached a critical situation, after you've reached the emergency situation, and their panelling isn't far sighted enough. It should start dealing with older people early on. I have a constituent who is 93 years old, getting around somewhat. I tried to get the person panelled. It was impossible to get the person panelled.

I only got the person panelled after he had broken his collarbone and was in the hospital and then that person was told that he had to go on a long waiting list, and they would put him on the emergency priority list at that time. But by that time it was too late.

So I say that we have a program that is badly being torn apart, that has been torn apart unnecessarily and that we have lost three years and that this type of catch-up that the Minister is trying to promote - and it's not happening because the private sector isn't producing as he thought it would - that this type of catch-up isn't happening fast enough and it's too little too late. The tragedy is that we will even have to invest even more in the future rather than just catch up.

The Minister has put us on a type of treadmill where we're not catching up to the needs of the elderly people and I say that since we have a population that is going to increase in percentage of elderly pretty dramatically over the course of the next 15 or 20 years, that we have to start now as a society in making those proper investments so that we don't reach a situation like fifteen years ago where the backlog is so large and the base of younger people to support that elderly group is small, is faced with other pressures, and we start developing those backlashes in societies.

I say the way to avert that is to deal with the matter now and to admit the mistakes of the past freeze and to not rely on these recycled press announcements to convey to the public the impression that something is happening on the personal care field, when very little is happening, and to correct the situation that exists right now whereby the whole engine - if :JOU use the First Minister's terms - the whole engine of this government's program will be the private sector that somehow needs an extra per diem to meet the program objectives. We believe that need should be defined on the basis of criteria of need.

We believe that need should be met through the public program and we do not believe that need somehow can be met with some type of tax incentives or per diem incentives to the private sector that has no purpose in trying to make profit out of health care. We disagree fundamentally with the Minister on that and we believe that a public program is called for and should receive support. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MRS. WESTBURY: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson.

I was very interested in hearing the Member for Transcona talk about the need for enriched senior citizen housing in close proximity to personal care extended care beds because in fact, a few years ago in the 19 60s, a board of the Winnipeg Municipal Hospitals was in fact talking to the government 3127

Thursday, 1 May, 1980 about that very thing, about the possibility for having that. That was one of the discussions that was being held. I think at that time I was still the chairman of that board and that was one of the discussions that we were having with Manitoba Health Services Commission then, about possible future expansion of the Winnipeg Municipal Hospitals. I must say that it is a compassionate proposal.

It's a proposal that considers the continuing needs of the very old, the continuing social and family needs of the very old and these, unfortunately, I feel in today's society with its emphasis on the beauty and virtues of youth, we forget about the really serious emotional family social needs of those who are becoming elderly and who have become elderly and infirm to the extent of having to be placed in a personal care home or in an extended care unit, the kind of unit that we have at the King Edward and the Princess Elizabeth where the probability is that some of those people will remain there for many many years and indeed possibly for the rest of their lives.

I hope that the Mi nister will go back to a consideration of that as a possibility and especially, I keep saying about the need for more services to be offered at the Municipal Hospitals in this beautiful 40-acre park. I cannot understand why governments for twenty years have allowed proposals to be developed, reach a certain stage of approval, one architectural fi rm after another developing the proposals, and nothing happens.

In the Speech from The Throne we had a commitment for modifications - I think it came out under questioning of the Minister - modifications to the former nurses residence there, which is not used as a nurses residence anymore, and that the Municipal Hospital that is to be used for an expansion of their Home Care Day Hospital Program, which was one of the first - I think the first - such program in Manitoba and one of the first in Canada and has been praised and recommended at national conferences across Canada; for some reason the work that is being done at the Winnipeg Municipal Hospitals, hospitals that are owned by the city of Winnipeg, operated of course according to the provincial health care program, the Manitoba Health Services Commission, and are one of those institutions which has consistently been in the forefront of providing care for the elderly in a setting that is unique in Winnipeg, and possibly unique in Canada, with this beautiful park.

The families and friends of the patients can take them to sit in gazebos in this park for all the months from spring through fall. They can wheel them through these beautiful grounds. The staff of the hospital has a huge picnic for the patients and again this is on the grounds of the hospital. Instead of being in concrete complexes, we have here an institution and . . . I know we're on personal care and I suggest that much of the care that's given in the Winnipeg Municipal Hospitals is extended care, yes.

Much of it is also in the personal care field and the last building program that was approved took into consideration the fact that the care that is given, especially in the Princess Elizabeth, is really in the nature of personal care rather than extended care. The staff of the Winnipeg Municipal Hospitals has consistently shown its desire to co-operate with budget requirements.

I can remember being present at a discussion - I was Vice-Chairman then of the Board - with Manitoba Health Services Commission when the first restraint budget was brought in and we were given a limit for the budget increase and the Municipal Hospital was able to point out that they had been, for some time, practising restraint and had in fact cut back considerably on expenses and received a congratulatory letter on the efforts that they had been making without being put up against the wall.

We hear from the hospitals that complain; we never seem to hear about the hospitals that don't complain, that just show themselves willing to co operate. In the area of personal care homes, I was interested to read a tiny little paragraph at the end of a column about the Golden Door Centre in which the owner, Mr. Pollock, was quoted as saying that he had requested permission to replace the Nightingale Nursing Home on Mayfair Avenue and was awaiting the Minister's consent or agreement to this.

I would be interested in hearing what the Honourable Minister has to tell us about that, if anything, since that is one of the nursing homes in my particular constituency. I have recently had an instance with a stroke victim who has been in the St. Boniface Hospital. She has been rehabilitated as far as it is believed possible to rehabilitate her. Physically, she is able to walk; mentally, she unfortunately has been affected to an extent where she cannot be left alone. She is incontinent.

Her 82-year-old husband was phoned about a week ago and told, come and get your wife and try looking after her at home for a few days and see if it can work out. The 82-year-old husband is well. He's healthy for his age. He's able to look after himself; he could help to look after a healthy spouse. If he is forced to look after, in a 2-storey house, a woman who is a stroke victim, such as I have described, that man is not going to stay in a healthy condition for very long. It will take its toll of him, and I just think this is totally unreasonable.

They have not been able to get this woman into a personal care home that will look after her, and the family is being told, take her home. Their only child is living in Saskatoon. I made some inquiries and said, what can we do; not from the Minister's office, I made some inquiries from professionals in the field of personal and extended care. I was told: Ask them if they can take her up to Saskatoon; they may have better luck there in getting her placed in a personal care home.

Which means separating her from her husband, but maybe they could get her into a facility in Saskatoon where this poor woman, who has contributed much to the life and fabric of her native city of Winnipeg, now there's nowhere for her to go when she's in her failing years. The improvements that are being proposed for the Winnipeg Municipal Hospitals are minor indeed after being promised and programming for extension of their hospital for, as I said, twenty years, three different programs.

The program changes every time there's a change of government and it seems to take all of the intervening years to come to a decision on what a program will be, then there's a change of government and they say, no, we're not going to do that, we'll start again. And so they start again from scratch, and twenty years later there's still no 3128

Thursday, 1 May, 1980 program at the Winnipeg Municipal Hospitals. But the expansion and extension of Home Care Day Hospital is very important. I am happy and every one in our particular community is happy that is being expanded. Something else that needs to be looked at here is a service that has been offered for many years at the Winnipeg Municipal Hospitals for an ailing spouse being looked after in the family home.

And this is the necessity of relieving the well spouse for periods of time so that person can have a brief vacation and know that the spouse who is ailing will be properly cared for while she or he is away having a rest. Too often, as I indicated before in referring to the stroke victim, too often we wear out the spouse who, for reasons of compassion and love and caring and conscience, wants to keep the ailing spouse at home for as long as possible. We went through this in my own family, Mr.

Chairperson, where somebody was - well the doctor finally insisted that the ailing spouse be removed from the home because the effect upon the well spouse was too detrimental. It is most important in a case like this where people are willing to look after the stroke victim, very often this would be at home, that provision continues to be made and become known its being made, because most people aren't aware of this; where the ailing spouse can be looked after while the well person has a short vacation or other instances, goes into hospital for care for herself or himself as well.

I am concerned about the fact that with an increasing number of senior citizens in the inner city we are continuing to encourage them to live in a ghetto-like existence. The housing for senior citizens is not a matter of this Minister's responsibility, but it is a matter of his government's responsibility and I am concerned about the fact that support services are not provided in areas in which we encourage older people to live, we don't provide the required support services to enable them to remain independent, and through that to remain healthy.

The alternative to providing these services is to put them all into institutions and I don't think anyone wants to do that. But the fact remains that in providing housing for the elderly government has not had a tendency to look at the need for providing support services for that housing. The elderly now consume over 50 percent of acute care health costs and this is going to increase as the population of elderly people increases. Costs for the aged are higher because they are likely to be more seriously ill than younger people and it would pay us, society, to keep them healthy and living in their own homes.

I'm concerned also, Mr. Chairperson, about the dying patients and I think this a matter in which professional people are showing more interest. We have to admit to ourselves that people for whom we care may be dying and we have to provide special things for the dying patient, special consideration for the dying patient. The President-elect of the Manitoba Association for Institutional Pastoral Care referred to this just a week or so ago. His concern was with the fact that so often dying people are put into a situation where they have no one to whom they can talk about the fact they are dying.

They know they are dying, their families can't bear to think about it or to talk about it and in fact get no instruction on how to approach the subject to the dying person. I think we have to give more consideration to this. Mr. Howard, the President elect of Institutional Pastoral Care Association said that patients who learn they are dying go through five stages; denial, anger, bargaining, bargaining with God - if you don't let this happen I will try to be a better person, depression and acceptance.

Visitors, their families and other visitors must learn how to understand what is happening, what s1age the patient is at and how to help them through that stage. The experience in the United States and in Europe increasingly is toward providing hospice for dying, especially dying cancer patients. I think we all know of instances where terminal cancer patients, for whom hospitals can do no more, are sent home to die and with very little in the way of support services. Home care must be provided and is provided.

The VON will go in, and the VON, I think we all know, an unpraised group of nurses who do wonderful things for patients at home. They need more than that, the terminal patient needs more than that. So often where there's pain they have to have pain-killing drugs, they are drugged to the point where they are really unaware of what else is going on around them;

whereas professionals now say they should only have the amount of pain-killing drug they need to help them bear the pain or not to feel the pain, not to drug their minds so they don't anymore know what's going on around them. So often when the family can't look after these patients we put them into the dullest wards of the dullest personal care homes but a growing number of people, not so far in Canada or Manitoba but in the United States and in London, England and in Europe, are looking for a better deal for dying people.

The hospice were originally established by religious orders in the Middle Ages - and I understand the word is derived from the Latin word meaning guest - to care for dying pilgrims and for travellers. More than 130 groups in the United States have organized hospice programs and about 20, more than 20 institutions recognized by the National Hospice Organization in the United States, are providing this kind of care. These people are doing pioneer work in the easing of pain and other systems of terminal illness; they offer psychological counselling for patients and for families. In London, England, St.

Christopher's Hospice was founded about 12 years ago. The primary goal of this hospice was to help people die with as little discomfort and as much serenity as possible and live as individuals during their last weeks and months. Now often this care doesn't have to be institutional care, often hospice care can be given at home, surrounded by family and friends. The first United States hospice in New Haven, Connecticut which was founded in 1971 has now built a hospice building as a backup for the home care but it was founded on home care and home visits by staff nurses and volunteers.

I have a quote from a physician who was dying of bone cancer and who made the statement that he has no desire to spend anymore time in hospital than he has to, having spent most of his working life in hospitals, and who wanted to die at home but wanted to have 3129

Thursday, 1 May, 1980 the emotional support as well as the opportunity for sufficient drugs to be applied without destroying his mental powers. He was one of the grateful people associated with this New Haven , Connecticut hospice. When you talk about this people are inclined to say, Oh, you are talking about a death house or a death ward, of course that's not what a hospice has to do. It has nothing to do with that, it's a Hitlerian term that has nothing to do with modern society and modern ways of doing things.

We are talking about a way of treating the terminally ill so they can know they are dying, they don't have to respond only to busy and brisk professional people. The professional people who call on them are trained in the particular psychological ways of dealing with people who are facing death, and sometimes in a most painful and frightening way, trained in helping them to ease their social and emotional problems. There is a move in the United States to push for legislation to allow hospice to be covered by insurance payments.

I would hope that in Manitoba some consideration will be given to perhaps an experimental program in this area so the particular needs of terminally ill patients can be considered in a way that I suggest they're not now. The Canadian Cancer Society was urged, not very long ago, by a Quebec doctor, and this was at a meeting in Winnipeg, to direct their efforts towards support for a hospice system of care for terminally ill patients. The Quebec doctor, Dr. Louis Dion, made the statement that with cancer the patient usually dies slowly with little medical intervention.

Cancer related death, he said, often occurs at home since there is little provision in hospitals for gradual death, and he suggests that hospice institutions with a homelike atmosphere as an alternative to this should be provided. The emphasis in a hospice, he says, is on patient control over his death by offering support to him and his family. The statement is made that such a facility is expected to open soon in Quebec. This doctor warned the Canadian Cancer Society not to rush blindly into such a program but to carefully examine what service is currently provided to the patient.

The cancer patient has a right to know what is happening to him or her; has a right to know what the treatment options are that are available, and I suggest too often he or she is not provided with these options, the decisions are made for the patient; must be told about other treatments it was suggested at this meeting by a Dr. Aiko(?), other treatments to which he may be attracted as a terminally ill patient and particularly he mentioned laetrile and herbal remedies. I am not suggesting that, I am suggesting only that be part of a study. I'm not carrying any brief for untried and unrecommended remedies.

Often indeed even clergymen are uncomfortable in circumstances where they are counselling terminally ill patients and I think they could use some assistance in this as well. There was an

article in the Canadian Churchman, the publication of the Anglican Church of Canada, referring to the case of President Tito of Yugoslavia. I would just like to read some of this report if I may, Mr. Chairperson. When this was written President Tito was dying but not being allowed to die. His deterioration began in January, continued through February, became irreversible in March. By the middle of February, doctors were admitting that even if there were a miraculous recovery Tito would never again be able to function normally. By the middle of March they were saying there was no chance of recovery.

He was suffering heart weakness, cardiac rhythm disturbances, complete kidney failure, pneumonia, diabetes and internal bleeding in his lungs and stomach. March 14 , official sources said he pulled through for about the sixth time so far. At that point his life was being maintained by a dialysis machine, an external heart pacemaker, intravenous feeding and an oxygen generator. The

article suggests, President Tito was not pulling through, simply that machines were winning out over a body trying to die. As with Eisenhower and Franco, it continues, the world watches the macabre spectacle of medical technology trying to maintain the frail shell of a once great man. We listen to the daily bulletins, we hear that his condition is unchanged or else deteriorating and how many of us think as each day passes, stop this outrage and let him go. This is significant because it refers to world leaders.

All of us know of instances where similar situations have existed in this country and in other countries. I believe that anyone with a religious background must feel that the worst possible thing that happens to one is not necessarily to die. And yet we . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member has five minutes. MRS. WESTBURY: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson. And yet we continue to act as though euthanasia means not allowing people to die when their time has come. I suggest to you, euthanasia and allowing people to die are two different things.

Euthanasia is bringing on the dying before its time, and that's not what I'm talking about at all; I am talking about the dignity of dying, the dignity of living one's last weeks and months in proper surroundings - proper is a foolish word - in suitable surroundings where the psychological and emotional needs of the patients can be cared for and where he or she can be with people that they care for. I wanted to read this

article about President Tito because I think it reflects . . . It has nothing to do with our own province and that's why I think it might be acceptable to read. I think it reflects the way many of us now are feeling about the dignity of death and allowing people to have the dignity of their last weeks and to go when their time has come. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. A.R. (Pete) ADAM: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I wanted to ask the Minister if he could . . .

Last fall the tenders for the Winnipegosis nursing home were unacceptably high, they were retendered and I understand that a new tender has been accepted. I wonder now if the Minister could advise me what is the amount that the tender came in for and what savings, if any, did we have by the delay, and if he could advise when construction is going to begin. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. 3130

Thursday, 1 May, 1980 MR. LAURENT L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, I also would like to take

part in this debate. I think that I'm very interested and I have the same concern as the members that have spoken so far, and I daresay that anybody in this House and many Manitobans have concern. I think it is something to concern ourselves about. I think that over the years you judge a country, you judge a civilization, a nation, by the respect that they have for the elderly and what they are doing for the elderly. It wasn't so long ago that . . .

Well, even the terms now of aldermen, or elders , they were respected and nothing would happen in a community, in a group, in a band, without discussion and without the consults of the senior citizens. But it seems now that in these days of government by pressure groups - and I think there's an awful lot of that - that they are unfortunately left behind. I don't think you'll have too many threats of 95-year-old, 90-year-old or 85-year old groups of 10, 000 people marching on the Legislative Building, for instance. The times have also changed.

The people now, because of the drugs and the advance in medicine and so on, the people live, even the crippled, the handicapped live much longer than they did just a few short years ago. The way of life, say the rat race seems to have changed also. At one time, and that's not too long ago, I think that we all saw that in any home, in our parent's home there was always - not always but often - some senior, grandfather or great grandfather that was very well taken care of. Now certainly you don't blame the government for that. Should you blame society or should you just accept it as a change that had to come?

What you have now where the families are busier . . . They seem to be busier. They haven't got the time for the old people anymore; in many instances both the spouses work, too often, to try to make ends meet. The people now, although they are healthier for a longer time, they are pretty well forced to retire in most instances at 65 years old, those that want to work, not only to keep from starving but because they feel that it is a need - and I think that this is very important - a need in their lives to be able to work as long as they feel they're productive, as long as they like it.

I am certainly not suggesting that everybody should be forced to work. Some people have the means and have not only the means, but the wish to retire. They can keep busy. They might have friends and relatives and so on and they would like to retire. In fact, they take an early retirement and that should be encouraged. I know that the Minister feels the same as I do on that. We've had these discussions before, these discussions when the position in the seating arrangements in the House was a little different and we agreed , although I guess we couldn't do too much at the time. This is something . . .

And now with all the unemployment there is an inflation and then all these new people in the workforce. As I say, both spouses want to work as much as possible, it doesn't look too promising for the senior citizens. As I said, it's not a pressure group. You won't have too many people that come here and criticize, but it is something that we should all know because most of us will go through it; we'll become senior citizens. If we don't die too early, this is what's going to happen to us and we'll be faced with the same problems. The problem is not just one that the people will starve.

I think there's certainly much more that's painful to older people than starving. I think that in Manitoba we had and have a blueprint and many of the pieces are in place for the best care for the elderly that there is probably in the free world. It's going to cost money but it's not necessarily going to be that expensive. It could be a lot worse if we just wait till the very last minute just to build acute beds and not to take care of the people immediately. But as I said, they seem to have everything stacked against them.

Even the medical profession will admit themselves, that many of them do not find it as glamourous or easy to take care of older people. So therefore, when people are sick and especially if they're over 65, well, they're doomed. The general hospitals are not too fussy in getting them in the hospital because they feel then they can't get them out because there are shortages of beds. You can't get them out so they'll do everything possible not to accept these people.

Whereas if - and it's like everybody else - if they were taken care of immediately they could go back, in many instances, if there wasn't that fear and that panic of trying to get a bed, panic for the senior citizens themselves and the family who are concerned - I don't want to use the word stuck but are concerned - about these people and they will not be happy and they will not rest until they're sure that somebody is going to take care of them and that he's going to have a permanent bed in a personal care home, and that is one of the reasons why there's such a demand for that.

Therefore, I feel that we could start probably where we should, not at the tail end of what's going to happen when these people are dying, but to keep them healthy and contented as long as possible. I think that they are contented and happy, most of them, when they live in their own homes. I don't think there's too many who want to go to a personal care home immediately, unless they're very sick, unless they can't take care of themselves. There's a lot of people with pride, a lot of people that are very independent and that is why we've talked.

I guess the first step would be a senior citizens' homes where older people will live together. You know, they are too often forgotten by their families now, or the family has problems with their own children and their own life and there's less interest. It becomes boring to go and visit the old folks. We've seen some right here in Winnipeg and in Manitoba, some of the senior citizens' homes where the people are so happy. I can think of one special ... Well, there's quite a few in my constituency. There's one at 101 Marion I think is a good example of that.

They're blessed there with having a person in her eighties, a Mrs. Lawson, who organizes everything. She's terrific. They have a do for everybody when they have a birthday. The last time I was there I had an uncle there who was 92 years old, 92 young, he was very healthy and he and my aunt live together. They have that little suite. They're very contented. As the Minister knows, I wasn't one that criticized so much the increase in per diem at personal care homes. When you do so many things it is costly and 3131

Thursday, 1 May, 1980 you give people a pension so they can take care of themselves; but if you do take care of them, if you give them shelter, and in some instances if you feed them, well, they need less, they are the very fortunate ones. So I don't think the Minister will hear me criticize too much, the per diem. As long as they have a few dollars to buy some of the necessities that some people might call frills, but that certainly shouldn't be considered as frills, I think they could be counted in the privileged ones.

But the next step - and I'm looking at the cost also - the next step should be enriched senior citizen homes, not necessarily near the hospital but more in conjunction or more associated with senior citizens' homes. Because the next step people are in these senior citizens' homes and they're happy but after awhile one of the partners might die or they might be there alone, and then they can't fend for themselves, they can't take care of themselves and feed themselves and they have certain needs.

Well, it wouldn't be difficult if in the planning - and this some of the things that we were working on that seemed to have a freeze on that - you would have an enriched senior citizens' home if some of these homes were built with a cafeteria kind of thing, where at least you'd know that they would be well fed. If there was a small room or somewhere near the lobby a place that you would have a nurse, that you would bring in home care in that area and it would be a lot easier because you'd have a concentration of people that need home care, some home care; it would be a lot cheaper.

You could have somebody that would call there or, if it's a large one, depending on the state of the people there, even a few people on staff. It would be a heck of a lot cheaper than building personal care homes. You'd still need the personal care homes, I'm not suggesting that you do away with them but you will need less. But the most important thing, you'll have more people happy. It's sad, Mr. Chairman, when you read the

article that was in today's paper and yesterday's paper about the elderly that were left homeless. You can't tell me that we're taking care of these people. Maybe they're independent; maybe they want to be there. But you see the picture of old boxes in the place. You see people that have to have a walker to get by; they might be 84 or 85, and they have to take the walker to the stairs and use the rail and take a long time to go on the second floor or on another floor to use the washroom and then come back. I mean, it would probably take them a half an hour or so to make that trip.

It seems to me that if we had these senior citizens homes we're talking about, we can have that and then the enriched senior citizens' homes where these people could be taken, but they would still be at home. They would still be at home. But they would have a facility to have their meals there. They would have some help and somebody would see them constantly, and that would not be very costly. In fact, it would be a saving. You would see that people would not panic as fast or as soon because they feel, all right I'm in a senior citizens' home and then there's an enriched.

There's another step, a small step, but a step where I can still take care of myself most of the time but I'll be able to have decent meals, and then, not only that, but the companionship which is so important because these people have recreation and you can use the volunteer. I know that the Minister is strong on volunteers and so am I and there's so much good that can be done and there's so much satisfaction. That might help some of the people that are 65 themselves and healthy, give them something to do, a challenge, feeling that they still productive, that they are helping their fellow man.

That is why, I think, this would be the first step. Then, of course, you have those who want to stay at home; you have Home Care. I think that Manitoba had the best Home Care Program there was. I think it's slipping a bit but I still think it's one of the best in the nation, where you have people that are staying at home and you have people that might be staying with sons or daughters. Also, the sons and daughters are ready, willing and able to keep them but they must also go to work or at times it is difficult for them to be there all the time.

So, if there is some kind of a home care, that program fits in the overall care of our senior citizen. Also there is many of them that are staying by themselves. If they could have this visit and you bring in Meals on Wheels is another thing, where at least they'd have one hot meal, one decent meal a day. Look at all these pressure groups that are talking about the schools where they have parents, young parents, to take care of them. The pressure for Day Care - I'm talking about for the youngsters and for hot meals at schools where there is a family to take of them. Very few people worry about these old people.

There is no way at all you would have the pressure. You could have a Day Care demonstration here that could be organized in no time, but you'll never organize a Day Care or Meals on Wheels or a group that are not satisfied with the senior citizens, because, as I say, they are not going to come here on their crutches or wheelchairs and so on to criticize. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't do something about it. We'll never cover all the angles; we'll never please everybody but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try it.

As I said before, I think that you look at a culture, a nation, a country, by the way they're respected and what they do for their elders. I think it is so important. Then you have after the enriched senior citizens' home, Home Care and all these programs, the visit of the nurses and the Meals on Wheels you have personal care beds. The personal care beds are also very important.

Now, in the requirement or the conditions - I think that last year we discussed that, I haven't got those in front of me, I think the Minister was going to get a copy to the Member for Transcona, the requirements or the guidelines where somebody would be panelled to go into a personal care home. We were looking mostly at just the physical health. It is very important but it's not the only thing.

Some of these people, I have read and everybody has read, and it's depressing to read that and to talk about it, but I think it is a necessity, some of these people there, it makes you sad just to look at that and see what they have to go through. And some of these people should be in personal care homes at this time, but you try. I don't say build everybody a bed; you're going to have a lot of difficulties and it is not humanly possible, it is not financially possible. But there's a lot of other programs that seem like extras, that seem like, you 3132

Thursday, 1 May, 1980 know, those are frills that are not and that would keep the cost down and would keep people happy. For instance, we used to have, but now there is such a shortage of beds that these beds are used practically in a permanent position. Now you have people that are taking care of their parents at home and they are ready to do it but, they themselves, in this kind of life they need holidays. They want to be able to go for a few weeks. This is one of the reasons, and I know people that would like to keep their parents but they don't want to be tied down continually.

They are afraid of that gamble so, therefore, they're looking for a personal care home for them, a bed for them. Now, if there was, and I know these beds exist but it seems that, unfortunately, there is not enough of them and, unfortunately, because of the lack of beds in personal care homes they are now used for a regular patient, a regular personal care home patient. I'm talking about beds where, Mr.

Chairman, if you're taking care of your father or your mother, and you are willing to do it and it's a difficult time, you might get some help from Home Care, but you want to be able to get away from it all for a couple of weeks. If you know that you can take your parents in these beds in certain hospitals for a couple of weeks or a month or something like that, you will come back and you will gladly go and get them and all set to go for another year. And those things are not very expensive but that's what makes the difference between respect and having people enjoy as good a life as possible as long as possible.

As I say, the acute beds, the medical care is also very important. This is why I guess I took it so personally when the Minister and the government said that there were all kinds of scandals in the departments when we had this administration. This is the kind of work we were doing and when you are told, well, you're just trying to throw money at these people. In 1976, and I have in front of me there, the five year plan that was announced; the government froze it immediately. I'd like them to really realize what they've done. Maybe it's too much for them to admit it but at least to realize what they've done.

Practically every single program that the Minister has announced two or three times since they've taken office fits in or was part of the five-year program. The first question would be, how much more did it cost you, or is it costing you, for all this delay that you have had? And we used to say it's at least 10 percent more a year, but with inflation, with the cost of money the way it is to borrow money which is at its peak now, it is much more than that. In the meantime you didn't have these beds, you had concern, because I've never seen so much demand for personal care beds than we have now.

So this is a thing, it's cost, there has been a freeze and they've had to go gradually. This is what we're faced with. In the program, for instance, this year there were three areas, three of the smaller ones that were not in the plan. And that plan was a five-year plan - that doesn't mean that after five years we were going to stop, they were going to develop and after another year there would have been others and things change a bit. But there were three and one was Elkhorn, a small change at Elkhorn.

Maybe I should look at the Minister's - one was Reston, a new personal care home for the community, exact location and size under discussion; Elkorn, renovations to the hospital to provide personal care beds. These were the two and then, of course, there is one in Lundar and that's the one that I accused the government of playing politics with that. The Minister talked about restraint, talked about the difficulties and the priorities. We've heard that so much and now they're going to double the beds in an area.

I might say that it is very easy for the Minister to keep on with the programs because it wasn't invented by the former government. The former government, they just took the report and recommendation of the Manitoba Health Services Commission who had no reason to be partisan in any way and we looked for the needs of the people when they made their recommendation. This is an instance when the government chose not to do that for political, for partisan reasons. Now we're faced with an area of priorities and then they more than double the area we're talking about.

The facilities at Mount Carmel, we hear also from the member of Cabinet that was probably instrumental in getting the bill to get Lundar, we know what he thinks of Mount Carmel here. He's worried about who is running and he's not looking at the needs of the people in the area and I think that this is the important thing, Mr. Chairman. So the first thing is to look at the cost, what has neen lost and then the people that haven't been taken care of. Now I also want to say again a few words about proprietary nursing homes.

I think also that in a society such as ours we don't need any private operators, we should not accept private operators to take care of our people. I'm not saying that the government necessarily should run and build everything. I'm saying that there's enough non-profit groups such as the Oddfellows, there's one that is mentioned, some of these groups; the Salvation Army, who have done good work; the Grey Nuns who have done good work, certainly their work is known. These organizations, their work is known with the senior citizens.

Now I am not concerned and I don't want to ridicule or criticize the operators, these people. They are motivated for different reasons, but it is a profit-making scheme, it is a business that they're doing and they must make a profit. It is misleading for the Minister to make an announcement and say that all these beds - and the same announcement referred to by the Member for Transcona - that all these beds will be paid for entirely by the private sector. That is not the case.

Originally when the construction is going to go up, of course; but we know how it works and we know they carry, whatever debt they have they carry that and the per diem rate has to reflect all these things. Mr. Chairman, the government had a freeze and then they said, well, the proprietary

section will take care of certain beds. The Minister - and that's another question, the second question I want to ask him - on August 31, 1979, not quite a year ago, the Minister said that the government had announced approval for the building of from 370 to 390 personal care beds, about six proprietary groups . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Five minutes. MR. DESJARDINS: You're kidding. I came after three; she went till past three. 3133

Thursday, 1 May, 1980 MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm sorry, I had you marked as 3:52. MR. DESJARDINS: Okay. MR. CHAIRMAN: I'll give you another opportunity anyway after that. MR. DESJARDINS: I'll certainly have my chance to respond to this. It doesn't matter, it's just that I noticed that the Minister, after the Member for Transcona spoke, the Minister allowed other people to discuss. We're on the same subject, so I thought that it might be easier for him to answer after, Mr. Chairman, but I'll abide by your decision of course.

So the concern is that also the Minister and the government is now saying, well, all right, we've approved. You can wash your hands and you can say, well, we haven't got that responsibility anymore, we've passed the buck. But I want to ask the Minister how many of these 390 beds announced have been built. This is one thing that I want to know and is there a deadline. When you approve something, do you tell them that they must be in place by a certain date.

I think this is important because you are approving something, you will have to pay for it; you are approving something that is needed and it is not enough to say you have the approval, whenever you're ready and whenever you want to you can go ahead and build. And these people, there's some of these firms come from Ontario, they have their headquarters in Ontario and they're building places like that pretty well around the country.

It's easier to build in Manitoba because Manitoba was the first one that covered personal care homes under the - well, the same as the hospitals, not necessarily the same as the hospital, because there's a per diem rate but there was a universal program in this area. Mr. Chairman, this is a concern that I have. I'm not saying that the government necessarily has to build all of them, but at least a non-profit organization. There is temptation and you see what is going on.

If the Minister and the government want to be consistent, if you want to give the private sector something else, if you want to give them the personal care homes, there is no reason in the world why they cannot do like other countries who have proprietary nursing homes, that you do the same thing with hospitals. There is no reason in the world. It is not an ideology at all; it is something that is the responsibility of the public to do, to take care of our senior citizens.

It is our responsibility and it's not going to cost - if anything it's going to cost less money - for the same services, that's the important thing. It's been pointed out that these people can run a facility cheaper. I don't doubt that at all and I want to make it quite clear that I'm not accusing any of them that are running these facilities here. I don't know, I'm not saying it's not done but I'm not accusing them either. There's some areas where they are kept, like the Member for Fort Rouge said, it's very easy to keep them under sedation for so long.

You need less staff; you keep them doped, you know, they might as well be dead. They're out of it, they're out of it completely all day, or tied in a chair someway. That is not what we want; that is not what I would want for my parents and there's nobody here that would want that. Then they cut down a little bit; you know they would cut down on food a little bit.

We're criticized if we say that and it's a joke if you say you have one less slice of bacon but those things add up and that's the reason why it's done, because it adds up and because that could be the margin of profit, of the necessary profit to keep these things going. And that is why it's not a question of ideology at all, because we don't want to see the hospital ... There's been abuse and in this case, in the field of health, there should not be, especially that the public accept the responsibility like we do in Manitoba here like we do for the hospital, Medicare and personal care home.

I guess I am going over the five minutes. Well, I'll sit down and I'll have a chance to finish later on. I'm sorry. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to pose some questions to the Minister, first pertaining to a case involving one Annie Hoydalo. The Minister will recall there was some coverage to this case a year ago; an elderly lady that was in the Selkirk General Hospital and had been there for quite some time. It had been una ble, apparently , to find alternative accommodation for her in a personal care home.

I've been asked to raise this as apparently the matter still remains unresolved. The lady in question is a typhoid carrier and my question to the Minister is whether or not he shares the view which has been expressed by Doctor Walters in his department that the personal care homes, any one of the three in Selkirk, ought to accept admittance of this lady. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, I would ask the indulgence of the committee in not attempting at this hour to start responding to the numerous important issues that have been raised. I would be just as happy to defer to my friend, the Honourable Member for St.

Boniface, and give him another five minutes and then I can enter the debate this evening. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR. DESJARDINS: Thank you , Mr. Chairman, maybe I can use these few minutes for some of the questions, then,I would like to have. I would like to know what the added cost was for the capital project delayed because of the freeze, if that could be calculated.

I'd like to know also the waiting list for those that have been panelled; the total waiting list that is, the waiting list of those that are in the community or in private homes, broken down if possible, as well as those that are now in acute beds in hospitals but that have been panelled. I'd like to know also the revenue derived from the people who are in acute beds and have been panelled to go to personal care homes. In other words, they are accepted as personal care patients but they are in an acute bed because there's no facility at this time. I had another list; I was kind of taken by surprise there.

Maybe we should call it 4:30 at this time, Mr. Chairman, if nobody else wants to give questions. 3134

Thursday, 1 May, 1980 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. PAWLEY: I would like the Minister to advise whether or not he will be prepared to deal with some questions pertaining to this case after the supper hour. MR. SHERMAN: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I will attempt to update myself on the specific case referred to by the Honourable Leader of the Opposition, and answer questions on it. He has asked me a question which turns on the matter of medical judgement and professional medical opinion, I will give him an answer. I would like to address it between now and the time committee resumes.

I can use these two or three minutes to respond to the Honourable Member for Ste. Rose but he has left the Chamber and so perhaps I'd better even withhold my response to his question about the personal care home project in Winnipegosis until we reconvene at 8:00 o'clock. MR. CHAIRMAN: The time is now 4:30 p.m. I am now interrupting the proceedings for Pr ivate Members' Hour and will return to the Chair at 8 o'clock this evening. PRIVATE MEMBERS' HOUR MR. SPEAKER: Order please. We are now in Private Members' Hour. The first item of business on Thursday is Private and Public Bills. We have none.

Proceed to resolutions. RESOLUTION NO. 9 - APPOINTMENT OF CLERK'S ASSISTANT /CHIEF ELECTORAL OFFICER MR. SPEAKER: The first resolution on the Order Paper is Resolution No. 9, the resolution of the Honourable Leader of the Opposition, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Transcona, who has seven minutes. MR. PARASIUK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. With the time I have left, I would like to just summarize my position on this issue.

I believe very strongly in the necessity of the impartiality of the Chief Electoral Officer; I believe in the necessity of the impartiality of the Assistant Clerk of the Legislative Assembly.

We are talking about both positions in this resolution, and I believe very strongly that impartiality has been compromised by the arrogant actions of the Conservative Government of Manitoba and that has been rather unfortunate for the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba because although at least one of the functions is to be an official of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba, the way in which the government has acted in it's executive function in appointing this individual has really, I think, undermined the traditio ns of the Leg islative Assembly of Manitoba and undermined the way in which it might operate in the future.

The problem, of course, is the way in which the position of Chief Electoral Officer has been filled and that's namely been without consultation with the opposition. That is a courtesy that one does to ensure that all parties in the Legislative Assembly have confidence in the impartiality of the Chief Electoral Officer. That function is important not only during elections but that function is important between elections, especially with respect to the Electoral Boundaries Commission and also with respect to by-elections that would come up. That position has been compromised by the actions of this government.

The problem is also with the way in which the Assistant Clerk's position has been filled. In my estimation, this is the more serious offence in managerial terms, in that consultation with the opposition is a courtesy, it should be done, it wasn't done.

But filling a position of the official of the Legislative Assembly without going through the Civil Service Commission, without bulletining the position so that Manitobans, indeed Canadians, would have the opportunity of applying, is wrong and I think, very critically, the government not involving the Clerk of the Legislative Assembly in the selection process was terrible. I know the Clerk was involved in the selection process for the previous Assistant Clerk to the Legislature, and rightly so. That took place under the Civil Service Commission.

It's rather ironic and, indeed tragic, that this government that made so much fuss about the decline of the merit principle under the previous administ ration, has very deliberately, callously, blatantly gone against what they practised all through the bureaucracy and has acted very deliberately and directly with respect to this appointment. Needless to say, the government didn't consult with other members of the Legislative Assembly on this appointment as well, because there were two appoint ments made. This incompetence ... Because acting in this way, Mr.

Speaker, was incompetent and then, in a sense, beating their chests about it, chuckling about it when the issue has been raised at the Legislature indeed has been arrogant and I think the people of Manitoba don't like that. I think arrogance is a characteristic of this government that is not particularly appreciated by the people of Manitoba and they have been exceedingly arrogant with the way in which they proceeded with these two appointments. Unfortunately, the government's action clouds the appointment and it makes it more difficult for the holder of these two positions to carry out his tasks well.

That's been unfortunate for us, as Legislators, because I want the Assistant Clerk to be a servant of the Legislature, an impartial servant of the Legislature; I want the Assistant Clerk to have the full confidence of Members of the House; I want the Assistant Clerk to be able to look everyone directly in the eye and not feel embarrassed. The government compromised that individual and that's been unfortunate for the individual and I feel sorry for the individual for that. I know the individual.

I believe the individual has integrity but I feel that this government does not have integrity in the way in which it's acted. Let us be clear about what we are talking about here in this resolution. We are deploring the action of the government. We are not deploring the individual; we are deploring the way in which the government has acted and because of their actions and because 3135

Thursday, 1 May, 1980 of the way in which the government has acted in handling this appointment, in not bulletining, in not consulting, of not even, at this stage, admitting they were wrong in proceeding the way they did is inexcusable, Mr . Speaker, and that's why it's important for the Legislature, as a Legislature, to tell the government that the government has acted improperly in this matter and that's why it's important for the Legislature to adopt this resolution. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre. MR.J. R. (Bud) BOYCE: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I would just like to underline a couple of things that the Member for Transcona has just mentioned, to put my view on the record that no judgement should be made relative to the individual themselves but the actions of the government has been but one more manifestation of an attitude which started even before they had a legal right to exercise judgement, with the firing of civil servants on a Saturday before they took office . But is with the matter of c�nsultation with the opposition in the Legislature, I think, Mr.

Speaker, which has to be emphasized and underlined and repeated until the message gets through that if this Legislative process is to function, then there are certain traditions which cannot be whi

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	31-4-49a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	31st 4th hansardpdf 49a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	0465e5ebf395d55e8e7c3326c5171b2df86c2818

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