VOL. 2 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THER PERIOD: 10:00 a.m. - 1:00 p.m. FRIDAY, MAY 16, 1980 ' NO. 44

May 16, 1980 The House met at 10:00 A.M. Mr. Speaker in the Cha~r. MR. SPEAKER (Silllms) : MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: Tape No. 1593 NM- 1 Order, please! ORAL QUESTIONS: The han. member for LaPoile. Mr. Speaker, we have finally reached the ultimate in life in this Province. We are now in the same category as Calgary, Alberta, as far as an increase in the cost of living is concerned. Alberta, as han. members know, is the wealthiest province in Canada'.' Newfoundland is the poorest province. MR. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER: the Council. MR. MARSHALL: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. A point of order, the han.

President of I dislike to hear the han. member begin the morning by making a speech. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member has a question. He is entitled to a short

preamble, while I should direct him- MR. NEARY: I wa~ just going to ask my question, if the han. member would just restrain himself and not be so nasty. The question is for the Premier by the way. Is he aware that the cost of living in Newfoundland last month rose by 1.1 per cent, the same as Calgary, Alberta( And two of the reasons given for the increase in the cost of living are housing and the price of automobiles and electricity rates. These arathree reasons given.

Is the han. gentleman aware of this and if he is aware of it what does the government intend to do about the high increase in the cost of housing in this Province? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I am aware of what is happening across Canada as it relates to inflation and what is happening in this Province. The whole question of housing, according to some of the people in the St. John's area, the Real Estate Association and others, the cost of housing has not risen appreciably and I am sure the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing (Mr.

Windsor) when he comes to his seat can 4163

May 16, 1980 Tat>e No. 1593 MM - 2 PREMIE R PECKFORD: elaborate more on that. We are looking at th .e situation. There i's not that much that is in the arsenal, if yo u will, of a provincial governmen~ to do to try to alleviate those kinds of things. Because on the one hand if you eo something in one sector then you have to il'lcrease somemi.:lg in another or reduce activity in anoth .er. But we are aware of the situation. It is a serious situation.

The major responsi .bility lies in the national government to try to put in place a national policy which will assist in this way ~d why , by the way , that I co-ordinated some time ago, and it was the hon. member for t.al'oile who critic ized me for so doing, that I indic ated to the Prime Min:i:ster some time ago, and I had the other premielS for Eastern Canada also support me, not so much t:hat the interest rates were eighteen and nLneteen per cent at the time, but even if they came down, this was my argume11t, that it was going to take a fairly long time for them to get near where they had always been , at ten per cent .

So that in that interim year, or two year period, 4164

May 16,1980 Tape No. 1594 AH-1 PREMIER PECKFORD: perhaps nationally we should get together and try to put some programmes in place to help the housing industry. Of course the federal government has responded to me by just saying, no, we are going to let our existing policy stand, that we thL~ we are going to do something for home owners but they really have not moved in to try and do anything.

So we are willing to participate at a moment's notice with the other provinces and the federal government to try to help as it relates to interest rates which have a direct impact upon the housing market and upon hqus:i.ng in general. So if that is one of the contributing factors towards the ris~ then we are on record as trying to help to do something about it. On electricity rates, obviously, we are concerned about that and we are trying to keep them as low as possible.

Right now there is a subsidy on electrical rates in this Province of somewhere around ten, to twelve to thirteen million dollars a year out of the provincial treasury directly to keep electricity rates down. And we will continue to try to be as responsible as we can in that direction. In the whole question of cars, of course, there is very little we can do there,in the purchase of automohiles,to help. we can just try to ensure that proper practices are being used from time to time. But we will continue to monitor the situation, Mr.

Speaker, and assure the han. member that anything is really in our power to do we will do. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): A supplementary. The han. member for LaPoile. MR •• NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, the hon. gentleman raised the matter of interest rates and the hon. gentleman was the first one to criticize and jump on the Government of Canada for the high interest rates to get a little political mileage but then when the rates went down and had gone down for ~~e fifth week in a row, the interest rates have dropped, I did not hear the han. gentleman complementing the Government of Canada for their policy. But what I want to ask the han. gentleman now is if he is aware that one of the reasons for the high cost of houses,especially in 4165 ~ ·----·· -- -- ·-- ----------·----

May 16,1980 Tape NO. 1.594 AH-2 M.R. NEAR~: the St. John 1 s area, is due mainly becacse of the execucives of companies ~~~t. are affiliated with the offshore oil. drilling offering people high prices for cheir homes, for their houses. Is the hon. gentleman aware of this and if the hon. gentleman is aware of ic what does he L~tend to do about it? M.R. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr . Speaker, I do not think it is fi .rmly established chat the higher price of houses chis year over last year, thac th e primary reason is what the hon. member gives .

It is a factor towards inflating prices in the housing market in the St. John 1 s area. I do not know. We can continu e to monitor the situation just co see that there is no 4166

May 16, 1980 Tape 1595 EC - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: gouging going on, if you will. But we are not aware - the housing market for a while seemed to take off, but I think it has sort of levelled off again now in the St. John's area. As it relates to building of homes in the St. John's area, there are a lot of serviced lots available. In the New Tcwn area there are hundreds of serviced lots available at prices which have been established,so that there is a f~i ~ amount of that. What will then affect the building of houses - not the purchase of existing housing stock - the building of houses, will be the interest rates.

That is what we have to get at. And as far as that goes, my whole argument on the interest rates, as I have told the hon. member, "'as not so much whether the policy that the federal government 1oBZ:e using was wrong as it related to interest rates, I do not argue with that 1 what is wrong is that there is a period of time, and it could be a year, it could be two years , when interest rates are still going to be substantially higher for the purchase of homes or the bor~wing of money for anything, a lot higher than it had been up to the beginninq of 1979, for that two or three year period.

I do not argue with the present policy that the federal government are using as it relates to interest rates. What I am saying is that those people who are goinq to be most affected by it should thereby qet some relief in that interim period of time on the purchase of money over the broad spectrum, not just for money to borrow to build houses but on a whole bunch of other areas. But we need perhaps sone temporary measures like that, and that can only be done at the federal level to be of any great meaning. MR. S , NEP.R:! : MR. SPEM<ER (Simms): for LaPoile. JIR· S • NEAR¥ ; A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

A final supplementary, the han. the membex: As the hon. gentleman knows, there is a desperate shortage of apartments and houses in this Province. In my own district of Port aux Basques there is a desperate housing shortage. Will the hon. gentleman tell the House and the people of this Province what plans the government have this year - give us a few details, be 4167 . ·---..- ·---. --,----

May 16, 1980 Tape 1595 EC - 2 MR. S • NEARY : specific about it - what plans the government have to construct new houses, to construct new apartment buildings in this Province this year? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hen. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, we have a housing programme in place now in rural parts of the Province to assist Newfowtdlanders. That is already in place 1 that was announced in the Budget - very specific - to help people get into houses. MR. S • NEARY: Yes. PREMIER PECKFORD: So the only areas that have not been covered are in the St.

John's area as it relates to the bo=owing of money and that is where our great concern is now. On the whole question of apartments in St. John's, I think the vacancy rate right now is arowtd zero and it is wtacceptable and we have to do something about it. I think there are a number of proposals now on the drawing boards to build a number of apartments in the St. John's area. Some of them h:ave been before City Council over the last few weeks. So we have to alleviate that. That is where the great problem is right now in St. John's. MR.

E. :ROBERTS: (inaudible) the Rental Tenancies Board PREMIER PECKFORD: The Rental Tenancies Board - there are - MR. E. ROBERTS : - (inaudible) tax system in st. John's. MR. D. BOLLET'l': that is right and D'Unicipal <;ovemments. MR. L. THO.MS: That is right. That is the big problem. PREMIER PECKFORD: A number of weeks ago I indicated in talking about the apartment problem in st. John's - and I did, as a matter of fact, so long ago as when I was Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing - that one of the big problems in St.

John's - and the government have been trying to get the city to change it - is to go from a rental value to a capital value system. That is a biq 1 big problem in the whole question of apartment construction in this city. 4168

May 16, 1980 Tape No. 1596 SD - l PREMIER PECKFORD : The Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing (Mr. N. Windsor) has met on two or three occasions with the Local Home Builders Association and they have complained to the minister about the whole question of the Tenacies Board. '!here is a feelinCJ by the contractors and the home builders that the Tenacies Board is more in favour of the tenant rather than the owner of apartment dwellings and that it mitigates against new ones being built. So these are two factors that go into the whole question of the apartments but outside of St.

John's there is a pretty, pretty reasonable effort being made by the qovernment to try to ensure that Newfoundlanders and raral Newfoundland because they do not want to live in apartments anyway, they want to liw in their own homes - MR. S. NEARY: Port aus Baaques(inaudible) PREMIER PECKFORD: ...are able to &:! so. so , I think on that score we are doin9 a fair amount. Some of it then in St. John's has to ~ with the municipal setup as well as other factors but there are, I think, a number of plans on the dr-ing boards now to build some additional apartment buildings in the St. John's area. MR.

SPEAKER (S _i.mms): MR. E. ROBERrS: The hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle. Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. J. Morgan) arisin9 out of the announcement yesterday or maybe the day before, anyway, the recent announcement by Mr. De Ban' the Minister of DREE at Ott-a,that the plant at St. Bazbe, the proposal to develop a plant at St. Bazbe had'been rejected at least insofar as DREZ were concerned.

Now, DREE do not have the riqht to approve or disapprove whether a plant is built, all that CREE can say, of course, is whether they will help to fund it or not and at this sta9e they have said no. What I want to know from the minister is can he indicate, please, whether the government's position with respect to the plant at st. Ba%be has changed in any way? The minister earlier indicated in the House and I believe in letters as well that he and his colleagues strongly supported the initiative to put a plant at st. Bazbe, could the minister indicate - whether that has changed in any way, please? MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. 4169

May 16, 1980 Tape No. 1596 so - 2 MR. J. MORGAN: No, Mr. Speaker, it has not changed f:r:om the time we held the last meetings with the federal officials of Fisheries and Oceans. and when we were asked to comment to CREE. tor some strange reason DREE suddenly decided to ask us for comment on the St. Barlle plant and most other projects connected with Fisherie~ there was very seldom a request for a comment hut they asked us to coDIIIent or give the Department of CREE our opinion on a St.

Barile p:r:oposed plant. 1\nd we w:r:ote to DREE and we also met with them, when I say we - the officials of the Department of Fisheries - and put forward a position to them that ve were concerned initially with the possible effect it would have on the operations at St. 1\nthony. So oar position was taken that we had no objections to the plant at st. Bazbe on the condition that the supply of raw material would be coming fzom the feeder plants, I can not list them off now hut I - MR. E. :ROBERl'S : Anchor Point, Flowers Cove MR. J.

MORGAN: Anchor Point, Flowers Cove and these feeder plants operated ., and in fact mostly if not all, by 'l' .J. Hardy from Port au Basques and, of course, T. J. Hardy is now owned by Nickersons. MR. S. NEARY: Get out of here. 4170

May 16, 1980 Tape No. 1597 EL - 1 MR. J. MORGAN: There is no, there is no - Mr. Speaker, MR. NEARY: That is slander. MR. J. MORGAN: - it is an absolute, absolute correct statement. MR. NEARY: That is slander. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Order, please! MR. NEARY: That is slander and an attempt to smear a good Newfoundlander. MR. J. MORGAN: It is not slander Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. the Minister of Fisheries is responding to a question. MR. J.

MORGAN: I am answering a question proposed and I am not using any smear tactics, I am merely giving a fact on the situation that the feeder plants that were own~ by - MR. NEABY: That is not true. MR~ W. MARSHALL: A point of order, Mr·. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : A point of order,the hon.the President of the Council. MR. W. MARSHALL: Your Honour; has made a ~ing a moment ago. The hon. the Minister of Fisheries(J.Morgan) is responding to a question from the hon. the Opposition Bouse Leader. Your Honour just called the hon. the member for LaPoile(S.

Neary) to order, and he is flagrantly ignoring the ruling of Your Honour and, you know, I mean, the ·House does not belong to the bon- the member for LaPoile. SOME HON. MEMBERO: Hear, hear. MR. E. BOBERrS : . 'rO the point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: TQ the· point of order, the hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. E. BOBERTS: Mr. Speaker, just aa the House does noj: belong to the member for LaPoile, it does not belong to the gentleman from St. John's East (W. Marshall) , Sir.

My colleague is being outraged by the Minister of Fisheries' repetition of statements, which I assure the 4171 ------- --- ---- ·

.=. May 16, 1980 Tape No. 1597 EL - 2 MR. E. ROBERTS: minister are incorrect.The shareholdings are fifty-fifty. Fifty per cent held by Nickersons and fifty per cent - AN HON. MEMBER: MR. E. ROBE.Rl'S: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : MR. E. ROBERTS : Fifty-one. No, Mr. Speaker, I am sorry - Order, please! To the point of order. - the shares are fifty-fifty . But, in any event, my colleague is simply being outraged by the Minister of Fisher­ ies repeating statements which my colleague believes, and I believe, correctly believes but, in any event, believes to be untrue.

I am sure my colleague, it is not that I am sure he is able to restrain himself, I know he is able to. I would simply say to the House leader, could he do the same with the Minister of Fisheries (J. Morgan), please? MR. NEARY: Right on. MR. W. MARSHALL: Further on that point of order. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. W. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, the issue is ·purely and simply that Your Honor, drew the hon. member for LaPoile (S •• Neary) to order.

The issue is purely and simply that when a member is speaking or a minister is answering a question, for that matter a member of the Oppos­ ition speaking, he is entitled to be heard. The issue is also, Mr. Speaker, surely, that a legislature cannot operate when there is utter chaos,when one member tries to take the Assembly on his back, like the hon. member continually attempts to do. MR. SPEAKER: A final submission to the point of order, the bon. the member for the Strait of Bell Isle. MR. E. ROBE.Rl'S: we are back on the tit lior tat theory and we have heard one side, now we can have the tat.

Mr.Speaker, the issue is not as put by my bon. friend, who seems to have an ongoing battle with the gentleman from LaPoile. And I wish he would not interrupt the Legislature's work and conawne the work and the time of Question Period with 4172

May 16, 1980 Tape No. 1597 EL - 3 MR. E. ROBERTS : these quite inane submissions. The gentleman from LaPoile (S. Neary) is not defying Your Honor's ruling. Your Honor was quite clear~ha gentleman f~ LaPoile is simply outraged tiy the Minister of Fisheries (J. Morgan) and he momentarily had to struggle to get himself under control. Because the Minister of Fisheries is a most outrageous person indeed, Sir, in this sense. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. E. ROBERTS: there is ~~rtainly no - MR. MORGAN: MR. E. ROBERTS: Oh, oh. And that is what has happened in this and (Inaudible) I am sorry, now.

Am I allowed to make my point without being interrupted by the Minister of Fisheries, Mr. Speaker? I simply want - You know, I would like to get back on the question because there are some very important. points. There was no attempt to defy Your Honor's ruling, Sir. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : With respect to the point of order, I will s :imply repeat what has been repeated in this House many, many times.

The person speakinc; has the right to be heard in _silence and then presumably, during Question Period, if members of ~~e Opposition to my right, are asking questions, then presumably they want to hear the answers. It does become difficult if there is a lot of objection or interruption across the House. So perhaps we could consider what we have always done in the past and that is to allow the person speaking the right to be heard in silence. The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. -.J 4173

May 16, 1980 Tape No. 1598 DW - 1 MR. J. :-iORGAN: Mr. Speaker, as I '~as saying. the feeder plants, mentioned by the Opposition House Leader (~r. Roberts) who is more knowledgeable of the area than I am it being his own district or neighbouring, part district, these feeder plants were operated by T.J. Hardy and our condition to the recommendation of approval, I guess you can call it that, or recommendation of support, was on the condition that the supply of raw material would come from these feeder plants for the proposed St.

Barbe fish plant to be built by Nickerson's. we wanted to make sure there would be no adverse affect on the operation now owned by Fishery Products at St. Anthony - MR. E. P.OBE!'tTS: And Port au Choix. MR. J. :-!ORGAN: - and Port au Choix. That was our condition~ In fact, I had the courtesy to send a copy of the letter to the hen. gentleman to let him know what we were saying to the Federal Government. However, I am convinced that the federal authorities in the Department of Fisheries and Oceans have not given their full support if any support,to the proposed plant at St. Barbe. Now, Mr.

Speaker, it was not relative to the question that was asked but because of the comments made in the House with • regards to ownership of certain companies, and looking at Mr. T.J. Hardy as con­ nected with that operation proposed for St. Barbe, the fact is that no longer than a month ago Mr. Harold Nickerson sat in my office in front of witnesses,;the officials o~ the Department of Fisheries and Mr. Peter Nicholson, the Vice-President of Nickerson's, at the same time he confirmed to me when we were discussing a.fish plant operation for the Fox Island River area in the western part of the Province. Mr. T.J.

Hardy was sup- posed to move in there and put a plant there. We 4174

:tay 16, 1980 Tape No. 1598 DW - 2 MR. J. MORGAN: arranged to put a water supply in, when I say 'we', the Newfoundland Government and I said, 'Well, I know you are involved in Mr. T.J. Hardy's business , Mr. Nickerson so what is the story on Fox Island River?' And his comment was he was more than involved he controls T.J. Hardy. His comment was he controlled and he was qoing to 90 back and instruct T.J. Hardy to put a fish plant in Fox Island River. So, Mr. Speaker, what I am saying is that the bon. gentleman whose district T.J. Hardy's plant is in, one of the plants,nobody is slandering ~r. Hardy, Mr.

Hardy is a wonderful Newfoundlander. All I am saying is I am passing on.information passed on f~om Nickerson's that they now own and control T.J. Hardy Company - XR. s. NEARY: I will find out right now. MR. E. ROBERTS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): A supplementary; the hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. :1R. E. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, the dispute as to who owns what obviously cannot be resolved here. I understand, just to make my own comment clea~ that T.J. Hardy Limited is owned fifty/fifty. That is all I understand, I do not know about anything else. Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the minister could tell us whether the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador are still prepared- now I do not want to get into the Northern cod thing,so if that is ' . 4175 ·- ---- ----- -

May 16, 1980 Tape No. 1599 NM - 1 MR. ROBERTS: relevant, just note it and put it asi de, because it is not the point I am trying to get at - are the Government of Newfoundland still prepared to issue a licence, as they were formerly, in respect of the St. Barbe operation, and I say that on the assumptio~ which may or may not be correct, that the interests putting together the new fish plant are still prepared to go ahead on some scale even though they are not going to get apparently the DREE funding~ And let me just add to that if I might, Mr.

Speaker, that I agree with the government's position that it should go ahead, ass~ng it does not hurt adversely the plants at Port aux Choix and St. Anthony. But that is really by the by. Would the government still licence it if the St. Barbe Fish Plant Limited, or whatever it is called, come back and say, "We would like to go ahead. We are prepared to find the money. We can satisfy this condition." Would the government be prepared to issue the licences~" And I do not want to get into the Northern cod right now, because that is not what I am talking about. MR. SPEAKER (S:imm.s) : The hon. Minister of Fisherie& .

MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, yes, that question was also posed by Mr. Nickerson, not at recent meetings on the Northern cod issue, but separate meetings about a month and a half ago. And at that time I lboked at what was given to Mr. Nickerson's company by my predecessor, the licences ' issued or the - MR. ROBERTS : Mr. Carter. MR. MORGAN: or at least approval in principle to issue licences to them for the plant at St. Barbe.

And I told them then that, Look it was the Newfoundland Government : commitment to give them the licences and that commitment would be honoured by the Newfoundland Government except in one case 1and I think Mr. Nickerson recognizes our position on that, it was in connection with herring, the herring species.

They had a licence for a number of species, including herring, but I did say that we had some reservations about granting a licence for the processing of herring because of the problems on that part of the Coast in particular with the processing plants we now have in the Bay of Islands area,for example, and the 4176

May 16 1 1980 Tape No. l59~ NM- 2 MR. !o!ORGAN: supply of, or ladt of su?PlY of, he=ing stocks . So thae is t . .'te only condieion that is now aeta.ched to that. In other words, whae we are saying to Nickerson 's is, "We will give you ehe licences but as for the funding all we can do is put forvard our views to DREE which we have already done. AN f!ON. MEMBER: MR. SPEAKER (Sinuns): the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBER'l'S : Delightful. A final supplementary , t.,e hon. member for If I might, Mr .

Speaker, the minister I i<now will appreciate that the matter is of surpassing interest in that portion of our Province, part of which is in my district, part of which is in the district represented by my friend, the member for St . Barbe (l{r. Bennett). And in view of the fact that there •.till be some controversy aboue DREE • s decision, and the Province's :ole in input into it, ! wonde,r if the minister would consider, 4177 -------- ·- -·-- - -·

May 16,1980 Tape No. 1600 AH-l MR. ROBERTS : and is he prepared to make public the submissions which the Province made to Ottawa in response to Ottawa's request for comments about which he told us in response to the first question which I asked this morning, Mr. Speaker?

You know, that would establish clearly and I do not have any reason to question where the Province stands,but that would establish clearly just where the Province stands and it would - I think the minister would know what I am getting at, he would obviate any suggestion being made by any source that'look, it would have gone ahead except the Province put the kibosh on it. And I am anxious that we know exactly who took what position and who is responsible for what, because I believe the people in that area , Sir, have a right to know. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : MR. MORGAN: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. Mr.

Speaker, some time ago when I was asked the same question by the same hon. gentleman I said t~en I would not table or ~ake public the documents that we had forwarded to Ottawa based on the fact that at that time there were ongoing negotiations - MR. WHITE: They are over now. MR. MORGAN: - between the company and DREE.

Now that the conclusion has been reached, in this case by the federal department, and I have already indicated this morning to some extend,at least,the major content of our position to Ottawa and to the House here which means it is public, there is no objection to tabling the document we forwarded which I can supply to the member for the area as well. Our position is made quite clear and I think it is clearly obvious in the document that we forwarded to the federal authorities that that was not the reason.

It was not the reason, there was no financial assistance granted to the company far the construction of a plant in St. Barbe. MR. SPEAKER: The hen. member far St. John1,s North folla;:~ed by the han. member foe St. Mary's-The Capes. MR.J.CARTER: I have a question for the Minister of Transportation · and ·C~~ications (Mr.Brett). This being the start of the 24th weekend a lot of people are concerned that the provincial parks 4178

May 16,1980 Tape No. 1600 AH-2 MR. J .CARTER: may be overcrewd .ed and they are afraid that if they park, say, in gravel pits or in just cleared areas off to one side of the road they may be prosecuted. I would like tile minister to clear tip thi .s once and for all. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. BRETT: Mr.

Speaker, the hon. member just indicated a few minutes ago that he was going to . ask me a ·question and I said I did not object • As far as the department is concerned,when we are finished with a gravel pit,or if there is a contractor working for us who is finished ., we go ~ and we will. take out the culverts, we will actually remove :the entrance to the gravid pit and put in the dit<::h and leave it. Now actually what happens,as far as we know, isthat private people go there with a shovel and they fill in the ditch et-ough to get their cars and their campers or whatever into the pit and they use it.

Now,we have no poliey, we have nothing to indicate that they cannot. I do not knoW if it is legal or illegal. All I know is that sometimes environment or touriSl!l or sombody may call up a.ild ·say, 'Look, will you take one of your dozers in and remove the access to a gravel pit'and,of course,we have to do it ~ 4179 --· ... ~ --·- -·--- =---.. - _ ..

May 16, 1980 Ta9e 1601 EC - l MR. C. BRETT: From the department's noint of view, we wish that people would not use them for the simple reason that there is no control. People go in there and nine times out of ten they ~ome out and they leave all kinds of garbage -glass, you name it - and there are no garbage cans, there is nothing, so we would prefer that people did not use them. Now,we recognize there is not enough park space, but in the meantime, we still do not want to see them using gravel pits. Actually, we do not have any control and our department will not prosecute people if they do go there. MR. L.

STIRLING: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : I have indicated I would recognize the hen. the member for St. Mary's - 'lhe Capes (Mr. D. Hancock) • Does he wish to give leave to the hon. the member for Bonavista North! MR. D. HANCOCK": Agreed. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Bonavista North. MR. L. STIRLING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A question for the Premier. It" is really a question that was asked a couple of weeks ago and the Premier knows I am going to ask it again.

It has to do with the Greenspond Causeway. lhere is an indication that the combination of the provincial and federal people will be proceeding ·with the causeway this year. There is some question about whether or not the government have actually applied for the federal funds, and the question I asked the Premier - I think it was two weeks ago, and I realize he has been busy - the question I asked the Premier was if the federal people come up with their funds - and I understand there is enough savings just in maintenance that the provincial government can complete their share of the causeway.

And I ask the Premier again whether or not · he has had an opportunity to get a commitment from his colleagues on behalf of the people of Greenspond? MR. SPEAKER: The hen. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: The hon. the Minister of Transportation and Communications (Mr. c. Brett), Mr. Speaker, can answer that question. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Transportation and Communications. 4180

May 16, 1980 Tape 1601 ' EC - 2 MR. C. BRETr: Mr. Speaker, I received some correspondence from the federal member for the area, Mr. Baker, who indicated in the correspondence that the federal government was willing to foot the cost of the causeway on a 50/50 basis. Now, of course, Mr. Baker does not have any authority, at least I do not think he does. I do not think he has the authority to make that kind of statement. We have no correspondence, we have no commitment, we have nothing from M.O.T. or anybody else in t.'1e federal government who has the authority to make that kind of decision.

We have nothing from them indicating that they would pay 10 per cen': vr 50 per cent or whatever. So we are going to be looking for a lot more than 50 per cent. So up to now we have no commitment from the federal government. MR. L. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER (SilliiiiS): A supplementary, the hon. the member for Bonavista North. MR. L. STIRLING: The question which I asked the Premier and which I have asked the minister has nothing to do with the federal government.

The question I asked arises out of discussions that we have had privately and that was that my understanding was that the federal government had committed themselves to put some money in for improving the ferry service, improving the terminals. Let us leave the federal question out of it. 'lhe indication that I had from the minister is that there was enough savings from maintenance and the subsidy on the ferry service that the Province would certainly be able to put up their share. NoW, just assuming that either Mr.

Baker or the federal government are prepared to do something, is the Province prepared to put up its share? 4181 ·---· ---

May 16, 1980 Tape No. 1602 NM- 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. Minister of Transportation and Commwlications. MR. BRETT: Mr. Speaker, the Province is willing to put up money for the Greenspond Causeway. But how much we will put up or how soon the causeway starts or finishes depends on how much the federal government is willing to pay towards the cost of the causeway. And obviously we are looking at it from a point of view of what the ferry system will cost and what the savings will be down the road. But how much we put into it or how soon we will go ahead with it depends on the final negotiations. MR.

SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. member for Bonavista North. MR. STIRLING: Yes, because I could only have a couple of questions in supplementaries, the final supplementary then has to be, based on the information that Mr. Baker has provided, has the government at this stage made an application to the federal government for any portion, or any amount of money in a specific application asking the federal government to put up specific figures, or specific amounts? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. BRETT: Mr.

Speaker, I do not know if we actually said that we wanted ninety per cent, or eighty per cent. I cannot answer that. All I know is that we have been negotiating with the federal government. MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROBERTS : The hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. Mr. Speaker, we have only a moment or two left so a quick question for my friend, the memb~r for Gander (Mrs. Newhook) , the Minister of Consumer Affairs.

We haye not heard anything at all from the hon. lady about the fate of the report of the special Environmental Assessment Committee set up to review the proposals by BRINEX, I believe, or BRINCO, somewhere in the BRINCO corporate structure, by BRINEX I believe it was, to develop the uranium mine in Labrador. Could the minister 4182

May 16, 1980 Tape No. 1602 NM ~ 2 MR. RD:S.ERTS : confirm, Sir, please if the report has recommended that that project not go ahead? MR. SPEAKER (Sirrans) : The hon. ~~nister of Cons~er Affairs and the Environment. MRS. NEWHOOK: Mr. Speaker, the report of the BRINEX hearing board will be distributed to the public in a few days. And I am sure the hon. member then will be able to read the full report of the board. It will be delayed now for a few days because in reviewing the report there are a couple of statements in it that our department is seeking clarification on.

And just as soon as we receive this clarification this report will be distributed to the public. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary. MR. ROBERTS: A supplementary, a final one, Sir. The minister obviously did not understand my question or does not want to answer it. If she does not want to answer it I cannot make her but I can try to see if I can "make it 1t10re clear. I was not asking what the government intend to do About it, I asked the minister if she would confirm that the committee have recommended that the project not go ahead? Yes or no would be all I need. MR. SPEAKER: The hon.

Minister of Consumer Affatrs and the Environment. MRS • NEWHOOK: Well, Mr. Speaker, I cannot say whether it is a clear recommendation, whether it should or should not. And there are various recommendations in the report and I am sure that the hon. member, probably, would like to draw his own conclusions from it. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! 4183

May 16, 1980 Tape ~To. 1603 ow - 1 ~R. SPEAKE~ (Simms) has exgired . The time for ~ral Questions :-tR . S. NEARY: A point of privilege, ~!r. Sp eaker. ~1R. SPEAKE~ : A point of privilege, the hon. member for LaPoile. MR. S . NEARY: Mr. Speaker . you have to raise a point of privilege, as Your Honour knows, at the earliest opportunity. Well, about a half an hour ago, or twenty-five minutes ago the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) made a very wreckless and irresponsible statement regarding an outstanding Newfoundlander who is in the fish processing business in this Province, Mr. T.J. Hardy.

The statement was misleading and could only damage Mr. Hardy's business, a man who is not a member of this House, who cannot defend himself. asking Your Honour - ~~~ . J. MORGAN: Did you call him? !\nd I am MR S. NEARY : I called Mr . Hardy on the phone when the hon. gentleman made the statement,I got him at his home. He denied that Nickerson's owned 51 per cent or 50 per cent of T.J. Hardy Limited. He says it is not true! And the hon. gentleman should retract his statement and apologize, Mr.

Speaker. :rt is a breach of privilege of this House, it is an abuse of the privilege of this House and it is just typical of the wreckless statements that the hon. gentleman has been making in recent days in this Province . MR . J, MORGAN: Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER: To the point of privilege, Order, please! To the point of privilege, the hon. the Minister of Fisheries. 4184

1~ay 16, 1980 Tape No. 1603 1)!-1 - 2 .MR. J. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, in qivinq informa- tion to the House of Assembly I make every effort and every ?Ossible effort to give factual information. And today in the House of Assembly I gave information regarding a meetina which ~as not a confidential meeting . It was an open dis- cussion eetween the company, Nickekson's, and ourselves, the officials of the Department of Fisheries, not just .Mr.

Nickerson and the Minister of Fisheries alone, with witnesses there, lots of them, in fact it was a very large meeting, a gatherinq in the office of the Department of Fisheries whereby Y!r. Nickerson stated - now who do I believe~-it does not really bother me that much except that I notice the company, Nickerson's, is making substantial investments in the Province over the past couple of months by buying out local companies and taking them over. And in this case we were discussing a plant operation, nothing to do with st.

Barbe, in this case an operation in Fox Island River -·we have invested dollars, taxpayers dollars to put a water supply system in for a proposed plant by T.J. Hardy- and it was then that Mr. Nickerson informed us that they do control T.J. Hardy , they control the company to the point where they were going to go back to Mr. T.J. Hardy and instruct him - the words were, 'instruct him to put a fish plant operation, a processing operation in Fox Island River' whe~e we had invested dollars with the belief that there were going to be some investments made in that community by the company T.J. Hardy.

There is no condemnation of Mr. T.J. Hardy, there is nobody~making inflammatory statements about the hon. gentleman from the district, in this case it is a constituent of his, Mr. T.J. Hardy, a fine Newfoundlander, a fine gentleman. But the fact 4185

:1ay 16, 1980 Tap e No . 1603 Dl•l - 3 ~IR. J. MORGAN : it and Mr. Hardy says no. is one company says they control That is a difference of O?inion between two companies not these House of Assembly.matters. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. R. MOORES: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) Resign, resign! Order, please! With respect to the point of privilege there is obviously not a prima facie case and no point of privilege. Not only is it a difference of opinion between the two companies,! suggest it is a difference of opinion between the two hon . members as well. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER (Simms) Order 40, Bill No . 44.

Second reading of a bill entitled, "An Act To Adopt A Flag For The Province~. On the amendment, the hon. member for Windsor - Buchans. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. G. FLIGHT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise to say a few words on this amendment. And, 1~r. Speaker. what is amazing in this is that I am speaking, that I am following the hon. member from the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts). We sat here yesterday afternoon, Mr. Speaker, waiting, in our ususal co-operative way, for some­ one from the other side to stand and address himself to this bill or this amendment. Mr.

Speaker, we waited in vain and the Minister of Tourism, Recreation and Culture (Mr. Dawe) again moved up and th~~~~t he could close off the debate - AN BON . MEMBER.: (inauciibl.

e) MR. F, .ROWE: Now let us shut that up right off the bat. 4186 ---- -------

:·lay 16 , 1980 Tape No. 1603 ::w - 4 "·1~. G . \"LIGHT: 3ut, ~r. Speaker, there is one :~ing becominG very, very obvious that there should be a loc of shame atcached to it. !cis obvious. Mr. Speaker , t~at t~e hon. crowd on the other side ha ve not got che backbone or the courage to stand up and s~ ate where they stand on this !lag issue. One of two things has ha;> pe ned, :·lr. Speaker. either the Premier ha s told them, in . ..,hich they ha7e not got the backbone to defy the Premier and stand u~ or else they are afraid . ~ hey are cowardly, Mr. Speaker. :-ta. 'I'.LOSH: I would say it is both . ~!L G.

FLIGHT: They are too cowardly to stand up and indicate where they s~and on this flag issue - MR. '!'. LOS!i: :1a . G. !! LIGf!T: It is a combination of " both. - for fear that the word will get back to their constituents - 4187

May 16, 1980 Tape No. 1604 SD - l MR. LUSH: It is a combination of both. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): I ask the hon. l!l!mber to withdraw the termi.noiocnr 'cowardly'. It has been ruled parliamentary. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh. MR. F. !lOWE : He is being provoked. MR. G. FLIGHT : I so withdraw, Mr. Speaker. SO, Mr. Speaker, as this debate qoes on, Mr. Speaker, it will becollll! obvious that it is not a debate, it is an exercise, I suppose, in rhetoric. A debate , Mr. Speaker-_ over the years I ha- been in this House, Mr.

Speaker, I recall one instance in particular where the Premier, the then Minister of Mines and Energy, introduced a pieee of legislation in this Bouse and after four or five hours of debate accepted an allll!ndment to that particular piece of legislation. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is my

interpretation of debate, where people get to make points and point out the weaknesses of certain legislation and that kind of thing ·. Well, Mr. Speaker, it became very obvious the day that this debate started, it was not debate for that purpose, it was not debate so that the people who were speaking aqainst this flaq or for this flaq; that the points they would make would have any bearinq on the desiqn. No, Mr. Speaker, the Premier had his mind made up and the Premier had his mind made up the day that he appointed his Royal Collllllission. Let us look at the p:r;efomanee of the Committee, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Pratt gave a ultimattllll to the Colnmittee. Ieven llll!llilers of this House of Assembly, he gave the ultimatum that' I will desiqn so many flaqs and you will ha- the choiee to pick the flaq of your choice but it will have to be an uilanimous decision by the Collllllittee. And if we have a unmdmoUII decision by the Coadttee there will be no modifications allowed; Now, Mr. Speaker, there was indeed a unmdmous decision. aot the first choice of the Calllllittee the second choice was the only one there could have been a unanimous decision on. Now, Mr. Speaker, Mr.

Pratt must have known that that eo-ittee was simply a collllllittee of this House of Assembly, that the mandate of that Colllll.ittee was to go out,listen to repz:esentation from 4188

May 16, 1980 Tape No. 1604 so - 2 MR. G. FLIGHT: the Province, hold public meetings and then co- baclc and recommend a design based on what they had gleaned from those meetings, the kind of feedback they got from the people. Now, Mr. Pratt must have known that and certainly the Colllllittee knew it. so, Mr. Speaker, I do not suppose- I would not go as far a.s to charge the COII!IIIittee with contempt Mr.Pratt with contempt hut the fact is,Mr.Speaker, there are fifty-two melllbers in this House, there were six members on the Committee and, Mr. Speaker, if Mr.

Pratt wanted unanimous aqreement from the Comm.i::tee and the ultimat1m1 was 'no modification~ he must have taken for granted, Mr. Speaker, that when it cane baclc into this House that there would be no call for modification, that we were going to accept carte blanche without question the coumittee. Now, that was a known fact Mr. Speaker, and I suspect that there was collusion, I suspect that the Premier of this Province knew, it did not matter what that design was, Mr. gpeaker, it did not matter, that flag was going to be the flag adopted by this Rouse. And, Mr.

Speaker, it was known if not by all of the Collllllittee certainly by some members of the Colllllllittee, members who we:z:e in a position to say, - can be unanimous, we can accept anything that Mr. Pratt designs beca'CU!e the debate in the House of Assembly will be irrevelant, the Premier has indicated that whatever you come in with i• going to be accepted.

The only debate - we will go through the motions, we will let the opposition or -mbers speak their mind on the legislation, ~ut then he let the word go out to his IIIBIIIbers, ministry and backbencher& al.U:e, •I intend to Supp)rt this flag, this is going to be the flaq of N-foUDdland, this is going to be my flag and you 'VOte far it." Now,that ia what hu happened, Mr. Speaker and that is the zeason why we are not getting any mo:z:e speakers up on the other side. The Minister of Municipal Affairs and BOWling (Mr. N. Windsor) has not spoken yet, the Minister of Lallour and Manpower (Mr. J. oinn), 4189

May 16, 1980 Tape 1605 EC - l MR. G. FLIGHT: the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. J. Morgan), and, !~r. Speaker, the one minister who did speak, it is unreal. I would like for the ministe r to stand up in the House of Asembly and read a message - ~~e Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. L. Barry - read a message that he received based on the speech that he gave in this House. The hon. minister stood up and said, 'I do not like the flag. It is not symbolic, it does nothing for me. I do not like it.' Well, if that is all true why would he vote for it?

Wny would one vote for a flag that one did not like - any aspect of the flag he did not like? You know , that is courage, ~.r. Speaker, that is a man of conviction! MR. L. STI"RLING: In a free vote. MR. G. FLIGHT: Maybe some of the things he is going to be negotiating for us on behalf of this Province, Mr. Speaker, he might not like. MR. S. NEARY: Hear, hear! MR. G. FLIGHT: It might go against the grain and he might not like it. He might recognize it as a bad deal, but because· there is some reason. some unseen force, some pressure - MR •. D. BOLLE'l"l': _ .. Because the Premier wants him to. MR.. G.

FLIGHT: - because the Premier wants him to, he might go ahead with a deal like that with that agreement. So what can the people of this Province think, Mr. Speaker, when the minister stands up in this House and gives every reason in the 'iierld to vote against that flaq and then he votes for it? What can one believe? MR. s. NEARY: He likes his ministerial salary. MR. G. FLIGHT: He likes his ministerial salary, MJ:.Speaker. MR . F. :ROWE : When the Premier says, 'Jump,' he says, lloW fa r? ,-- .. - -.- -- MR.. s.

NEARY: And the Dmllber for Bay of Islands (Woodrow) vents to worm his way into the ~inet. ·!ll{";-~GHT": · That is ri9bt, Mr. Speaker. Now, Mr. Speaker, I want to be on record - because I would presume - I understand there may well be a subimendment or two subamendments or three subamendments, it depends on how much time we have to buy for the people of this Province to mount the kind of opposition to prove to this bunch of dictators that they do not want that flag, that 4190

May 16, 1980 Tape 1605 EC - 2 MR. G. FLIGHT: ·they do not intend to live with that flag - t.l1e hon. bunch of dictators. Mr. Speaker, the advantage of speaking now in this debate is one of speaking from hindsight. One knows now. I spoke in the second day of the debate of this House 1 Mr. Speaker, in this particular debate, and I was in a position to have to pretty well register my own concerns with that flag - with the design and with everything I saw about the flag and about the design. But now it has - .. - been two weeks, Mr. Speaker, and we have the benefit of hindsight.

We have the benefit of knowing what is happening ou~ there in the Province. We have the benefit of knowing the universal opposition to this flag. And it is unbelievable, Mr. Speaker, that speaker after speaker getting up and registering their protests, registering the feelings of the people of their Province, of their districts, why it is this government still persists in railroading this bill through. Why the haste, Mr. Speaker? What would be wrong with allowing the people of this Province a month or two or three? What is wrong with modification of this flag, Mr. Speaker? \lihat is wrong with it? Mr.

Speaker, one of the big arguments by the government- as I pointed out already in this debate, but I will do it again - one of the big arguments is that, 'Well, this will blow over. Look at the debate with the Maple Leaf, the flag of Canada. ' Well, Mr. Speaker, there is a difference - a~ least the new flag of Canada had symbolism. But more important, Mr. Speaker, when tt.e federal government of the day brought in that flag, their first choice, the heavyweight of design3 was three Maple Leaves. But the people of Canada op- -· -· .. ~ poaed that and sugges~ed that one Maple Leaf would be moze appropriate.

And the government of the day, Mr. Speaker, made that concession that the flag could be modified. Now, why is it that this government is not prepared to allow modification of that flag? Why is it that it is not prepared to permit something in that flag that would make it, you know, relatively acceptable across the Province? Why? ·It is utter and total contempt, Mr. Speaker, and arrogance, all for the vanity of one man, Mr. Speaker.

The Premier of this Province wants to be able to stand up eight or ten years from now - or ten days from now when this debate ends and say -· > 'That is rrry flag I' 4191 --- -- ----- --

May 16, 1980 Tape No. 1606 NM - 1 MR. FLIGHT: The vanity, Mr. Speaker, of one man, the Premier of this Province, the man who was going to have open government, the man who was going to let people have a say in the affairs of this Province, Mr. Speaker. He said quite recently that you would get a lot more commissions in this Province, that his kind of government was going to be the kind of government that reflected the will of the peopl~. We were going to have royal commissions.

We did not have a spray programme because he was so concerned about the feeling of the people, he wanted to get a royal commission out around and test the air and let the people have some input. That is not much in keeping with the way he is handling this particular debate, Mr. Speaker. MR. F. ROWE: He has not even handled it. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, the commissions that we have in the future, if the Premier treats or ignores the royal cammissinns or the select committees of this Ho~se the way he is ignoring this one, his committees will not have too much credibility in this Province, Mr. Speaker.

The Premier, Mr. Speaker, is paranoid. The Premier of Newfoundland is paranoid over this issue. And he has got the whips on. It was very obvious yesterday, Mr. Speaker, when he stood there and indicated - there were a few people over there who wanted to get up. I know them over there who want to get up. And may get up and they may vote for the flag, but they want to slip into the answer some little concerns they have, so they can go back to their district and say, "Look, I tried and I said this and I said that, but it had no effect." He is not even permitting them to do that.

He is not giving them the opportunity to do that. And let me tell this House of Assembly, and let me tell the members opposite too, what the Premier has done by allowing the kind of a f~e vote that he has allowed. MR. F. ROWE: MR. FLIGHT: MR. F. ROWE : The hon. member for St. John's Centre. No 1 Luke Woodrow' - Bay of Islands. 4192 ----------- · ---- --

May 16, 1980 Tape No. 1606 NM- 2 MR. FLIGHT: -Bay of Islands(Mr. Woodrow), the hon. member for Baie Verte - MR. F. ROWE: White Bay. MR. FLIGHT: - Baie Verte-White Bay (Mr. Rideout), the hon. members from the Corner Brook districts, the hon. member for Gander (Ms Newhook) , where only two people showed up to represent all the people she represents, and the hon. minister did not bother to go to the Committee or go to anybody and say, "I am sorry, that does not represent the views of my people. We have to find another way to find out how the people of Gander feel." Mr.

Speaker, had the government and had the Premier not been so hypocritical and said, "This is a party vote," he would have let some of these people off the hook in the eyes of their constituents. Because they could have gone back - they know the feeling now - they could have gone back to the district and said, "Well 1look. I do not agree with the flag any more than you do. And I stood up in the debate," or "I argued in caucus," or "I argued in Cabinet, but I mean that is it. You know I could not control it myself and I could not cross the House." Only same people can do that, Mr. Speaker. MR. WARREN: Right on.

Right on. MR. FLIGHT: " So, Mr. Speaker - MR. WARREN: (Inaudible) changed. MR. FLIGHT: So, Mr. Speaker, they would have at least had that refuge. But now, Mr. Speaker, they go back and do not think for a second they are not waiting back there in the districts, do not think they are not waiting, the organizations and the individuals - MR. STIRLING: A .free vote • MR. FLIGHT: to ask them about the flag and why you allowed that monstrosity to be designated as our Provincial flag. MR. STIRLING: On a free vote. 4193

May 16, 1980 Tape No. 1606 NM- 3 MR . FLIGHT: V.'ha: is the ans,.;e::: going to be then? And I know so:ne people over there are concerned about their polit:ical lives, who would go to any length, any length in the world to retain the support they have. What are they going to say then? They are going to have to face it. But they could have, .like I said, if the Premier had not been a dictatorial as he was. lie is so dictatorial but wanting to appear to be democratic, 'It is a fre e vote' . Some free vote, Mr . Speaker, some free vote. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I want to r.efer for a second - in my last speech I got up and I spent fifteen minutes of the speech, I suppose ,defending t~e Union Jade. And I want to make it very clear - and it was the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (M.r. Roberts) who reminded me, in a sense, chat I want to be on record as to how I feel about the Onion Jack in the flag. And, Mr. Speaker, I have :to des ire in the world to continue to fly the onion Jack. I would not be particularly conce~ed myself if the Union Jade were or were not incorporated. But, Mr.

Speaker, the reason that I would say why not incorporate the Onion Jack is this. Newfoundlanders are compassionate peop le, Mr. Speaker. 4194

May 16, 1960 Tape No. 1607 EL - 1 MR. G. FLIGHT: Newfoundlanders are the kind of people who would make that kind of .concession, WOuld it have been such a great concession? You know, we are talking about all the members of the Canadian Legion, all the veterans over the years. We have had hundreds and thousands of Newfoundlanders who died over the years in conflicts . ----- -- We have had Newfoundlanders burried at sea shrouded in the Union Jack. Now, would it have been such a great concession? so, I am making the case in the sense that if I, you know, - AN HOl'l. MEMBER: (inaudible) the flag down. MR. G.

FLIGHT: Whii.t does it say there, thirty minutes? MR. F.B. ROWE: You know, I think there is an error there , Mr. Speaker, with all due respect. MR. SPEl'IDR: (Butt) Yes, the hon. member's time does not expire until 11:08- MR. F.B. !lOWE: · That is right. That is right. MR. SPEAKER: And I will give you a five minute warn- ing at 11:03 MR. G. FLIGHT: I am going to move a subamenc:Dent to say all I h~ got to say gentlemen. so, I mean, I will just have to do it. Mr. Speaker, would it have been that great a concession?

If I and I suggest to you that most Newfoundlanders feel this way, most Newfoundlanders, that .if they hated the Union Jack, if they did not want to see it ever again, they would be prepared to make that concession to the people who gave so much to this Province over the years. SiiiiPlY make the concession. Would it have been such a sacrifice? Now,that -I want it on record, Mr. Speaker, ·.is the concern I 4195

May 16, 1980 Tape No. 1607 EL - 2 MR. G. FLIGHT: have about the Union Jack. And that concern, Mr. Speaker, is held by thousands and thousands and thousands of Newfoundlanders. There are very few Newfoundlanders in this Province today who · would deny having the Union Jack incorporated into that flag for the reasons I have given, not because they want to continue flying the union Jack, not because they feel any special allegiance, not because it is the flag of another country, not because we are five hundred years old and it flew over them.

They want a distinctive flag, but Newfoundlanders are big enough to make that little concession. And the generations coming after us will applaud us for doing it. But no we are too small, Mr.Speaker. The government of this Province and the Premier and the ministers who support him are too small to make that concession. Too small to make the concession to allow the union Jack to be inco .rporated in that flag OR. J. COLLINS: It is incorporated in it. AN HON. MEMBER: Oh, oh. MR. G.

FLIGHT: In the mind of the minister, the abstract minister, some of the figures I see coming out of Finance must be considered in the abstract, too. MR. L. S'riRLING: MR. G. FLIGHT: ----- .. MR. L. S'riRLING: MR. G. FLIGHT: MR. D. HOLLETT': MR. G. FLIGHT: - ' --· It i!_certa!~ly symbolic. It is symbc1ic, ----~ S~lic is the word, Creative accounting. Now, Mr. Spaake:r., the univeJ:sal. - - - - 'nla f':r:o111 ~e (i~aadible) symbolic:.

The other point I made with regard to the lack of symbolism in the flag, Mr.Speaker, again it has become obvious now, with hindsight, that practically everyone in this Province wanted some symbolism of Newfoundland. They wanted some symbolism. It could have been any one of twenty things, I suppose. If the Cammittee could 4196

May 16, 1!180 Tape No. 1607 EL - 3 MR. G. FLIGHT: have been unanimous on that flag, on that design, certainly they could have come to a unanimous decision on some symbol, whether it was the Pitcher Plant or the Coat of A:r:ms, or a blueberry or a bakeapple or a codfish. It could have been anything. If they would have been unanimous, Mr. Speaker, we would not have to be going th%Cugh this debate we are going through. We would not have to be trying to buy time to let the people of this Province have some input and show their concern. MR. S.

NEARY: They were calling in from Ramea last night to find out where the hen. gentleman was (inaudible) MR. G. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, let me read a letter and I would hope-and if anyone in this House is small enough to do it, I will table it. I do not want to table it because it is from an individual and it is really not necessary to table it. I will read it and I will table it .• MR. S. NEARY: -, NO 'Graham 1 they do not ·- - - ·; see liAY point at all because he got his mind made up J' they aze going to follow the leader, anyway. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. S. NEARY: IIR. G.

FLIGHT: That is why they (~audible) llP We will get it later, Graham. Is that so? Mr. Speaker 1 listen to this. This should make some people on the other side happy. I would say to the House of Assembly, Mr. Speaker, that this is a constituent of mine and I thought that I knew all my eonstituents, could recognize them. I have never met, to my knowledge, this constituent. I vould not know him if he were to walk into the House of Assembly but he was concerned enough to write me a letter and I regret that I have obviously left the second page of the letter on my desk. ·'Mo, I did not. I have it. I have it. And, Mr.

Speaker, if so~~eGne is in the House Slllal.l enough to ask me to table it, I will table it. However, it is really not necessary. 4197

Hay l6 , 1980 Tape No. 1607 EL- 4. MR. G. FL;J;Gii'r: The Pre!IU.er 'ls qetti.ng thoUSandS of letters a day and he is not br ·inqing the111 to this House. All of the111 opposing. MR. S. NEARY: And phone callts and telexes. MR. G. FL;tGHT: And this should makee-- the first line or two here, which iS not ~rtant to the letter, aJ; far as I am con- c.emed. MR. S • WARY: ltnCIW thelll all, MR. G. PLIGHT; It says,·~. Fl.ight, Mr. Graham · Flight, MBA, COnfedt~rat~ :SW.lding, St. John's, Newfoundland. Dear Mr .Fliqht. This is just a note 4198 ----. ---·-' _____ _.,.... ____ .. ---~-~-~- .. . ·~,~--

May 16,1980 Tape No. 1608 AH-1 MR. FLIGHT: hoping that you are one of the MHAs opposing the new flag. In most ~ecent elections I have voted for the PC candidate feeling that the PC government has been doing a credible job. However,I cannot vote for a party that railroads through the elected Assembly a flag that ordinary Newfoundland people cannot identify with. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. FLIGHT: Now that is the unimportant part of this letter. Of all the letters that have been written in this Province, Mr.

Speaker, of all the letters that I received and other members that I have seen and all the conversations I have heard 1 no one letter comes so close to reflecting the concerns and the feelings of the majority, tlie silent majority out there. Just listen to this, 'Railroad is the proper word. Even while the tegislative Assembly is apparantely debating adoption of the flag, picture; of it with the l'lhel, "This is our new flag" are being posted at public buildings including schools~ Now, Mr.

Speaker, obviously that man has the insight, he recognized the hyprocrisy of what is happening in this Province, what is happening · in~this House of Assembly. EVen while the Premier brings in a bill, Mr. Speaker, to say we will debate the flag and presumablt>the House of Assembl~ after the debate, will adopt that flag. But the day that that debate started - and the Premier knows this,the day that that debate started there were flags shuttled out across this Province with signs, "This is our new flag:··"-in schools. And we talk about hyprocrisy. They are a bunch of hypacr"Ites;-·r-~r.

Speaker, and every person, Mr. Speaker, who stands up to support it, Now listen to the next paragraph, Mr. Speaker, 1 Some couunentators have ~bserved that there was initial opposition to the new Canadian flagr that oppositon now being ·virtually dead~ aight on~ 1 Bowever, the op~si~~~ then was not because the symbolism of that flag was to abstract for the people to identify with, there is nothing abstract about the Canadian flag, but - MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : Order, please! I have to ask the hen. member to withdraw the word 'hyprocite'. It is unparliamentary. 4199

May 16,1980 Tape No. 1608 AH-2 MR. FLIGHT: I am sorry. If it pleases Your Honour I withdraw it. 'However, the oppositon was then not because of the symbolism of that flag, because it was to abstract for people to identify with ,but rather because the symbolism was clearly Canadian instead of reflecting and including the British and French elements to remind us of our past. Now,in addition,at that time a flag with three leaves was the initial strong contender but the Canadian government was willing to listen to the people and allow modification: Well what is wrong with this government?

Why are they not prepared to listen to the people and allow some modification? It will still be their flag. The Premier could still go around and say, "This is Peckford's pennant" Why is he not prepared to allow some modification and why is he allowing the kind of a charade that we are seeing on this debate? A charade, an insult to the intelligence of the people of this Province, Mr. Speaker, to all the people and the Premier knows it. Now listen to this, Mr.

Speaker. ~he new flag tries by very abstract symbolism to indicate our heritage and our future.aowever, a flag that ordinary people'- and here is the key, Mr. Speaker -•a flag that ordinary people•-not m~ers of the House of Assemblyand lawyers and doctors and artists, the snobbish elite of this Province, Mr. Speaker, and you are not in this place very long before you become one of the snobbish elite 7 I will guarantee you. You see yourself as one, Mr. Speaker. That flag is not meant to please the aristocracy of this Province, it is meant to please the ordinary people and the ordinary people of this Province, Mr.

Speaker, no ·t only do they not sit in this House of Assembly if jhis -debate go~s through they are not represented in the House of Assembly. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Right, Right on. MR. FL.I.GHT: And then it 1Jd.ys,~This, the new flag cannot help but remain an artist's flag~ Is that what the Premier wants? Does the Premier want an artist's flag or does he want a people's flag? Does he want a flag that the people of Newfoundland will be proud of 4200 '.

'May 16,1980 Tape No. 1608 AH-3 MR. FLIGHT: or does he want a flag that he can be proud of? That he can go around and point to and say,'That is my flag. I did that. That is my one contribution to Newfoundland'. Now, Mr. Speaker, I am running out off time and there is one other thing that I want - I cannot believe, Mr. Speaker, 4201 -- ·--- - -·- c. -- ----·

~~ ar 1-6 ' 19 8 0 Tape llo. 1609 01·1 - 1 :1R. G. FLIGHT: this government denied the Royal Canadian Legion the right to appear before the Bar of this House. Now, Mr. Speaker, in the second ~aragraph of this letter it is very obvious to me that the man who would have made this presentation he may not have wrote it and he may indeed have wrote it - AN HON. ME!~BER: ~lo way. MR. G . FLIGHT: -was my worthy o~ponent · in_ the last provincial election who is now the first Vice- President of the Royal Canadian Legion, the san who would have made the presentation. And I stand here, Mr.

Speaker, and I say that I defend that man and that organization's right to-have appeared before this House. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hea.r, hear! MR. G. FLIGHT: There is not a member sitting in this House of Assembly toda~~I am prepared, Mr. Speaker, to exclude the two veterans who are in this House. And hav~ng excluded them I say to you -~here is not a man, a member sitting \ in this liouse,who has earned his ·right to be in this House any- more than the Royal Canadian Legion and most of them have not come close to deserving that right.

And they sit here in their snobbishness, they sit here in their all importance and deny the Royal Canadian Legion. But for the members of the Royal Canadian Legion and their ancestors, we might not be sitting here debating in this forum. ·I might not have the right to stand· up and say what I am saying. Certainly God, the people who made it possible for u~~~ ~o through what we have gone through this past two weeks in this debate should have had the right to come and stand before the Bar of this House and make a presentation. What was the Premier afraid of? You talk about denying.rights, Mr. Speaker, 4202

~lay 16, 1980 Tape llo. 1609 DW - 2 ~1lf. G. FLI GHT: Did Dalton Camp have just as - •,ras what he talked about in this House just as im?ortant . more important than what the Legion would have said~ Let me read a paragraph. Mr. Speaker. here , Mr. Speaker. I may have to move a sub-amendment Mr. Speaker, I tell you I do not understand the design of that flag. If there is one country or province or state or island in this world that canr.ot be represented by straight lines it has got to be Newfoundland. This Province is the most c~ooked piece of real estate in the world. And the oerimeter of - ,1R. L.

TEO:-ts : It has been for the past eight years. '1R. G. FLIGHT: And now it is beeo~ing corrupt. Mr. Speaker, the one place in this world that should not have been represented by parallel straight lines is the Island of Newfoundland and Labrador, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the day that that flag - Now, MR. SPEAKER: You have thirty seconds remaining. ~IR. G. FLIGHT: I will get another chance, Mr. Speaker, this is not the only amendment. The only hon. gentlemen ~ght just as well sit back. This is not the last amendment that this debate is going to see and so, ~r. Speaker, I will get another chance.

I will just end up, Mr. Speaker, by saying that there is no question about the outcome of this debate. This has not been a debate as I said, it has not been a debate that would have been conducive to new ideas and the possibility of having changes made in that flag. It has not been a debate where a member could have felt that he had a chance to reflect the feelings of his constituents or the the people of this Province. That did not matter, that is insignificant. Had the deal been 4203

llay 16, 1980 Tape No. 1609 ovr - 3 "·lR. G. C'L IGBT : struck, ~ r. Speaker. that only one speaker stood on this side and one on the other side, Chat ·would have been the end of the debate ·If it goes on to July, Mr.Speaker .,it will not make any difference we may see closur .e. Sybe that is what we should do. l~e should make the Premier fight for hi~; pennant. we should kee .p her open and force him to have closure. He is prepared to fight, let him get his flag the hard way. His flag, not the people's flag, his flag. And, Mr.

Speaker, let every member who stands in this House of Assembly and supports this flag know that they are doing the people of ~ewfoundland a grave injustice. You talk about famous ~ I have heard about Speaker, the day that that flag - famous flags, Mr. MR. SPEAKER• (Butt): Order please! The hon. member .. s time has expired. MR. L. STIRLING: By leave. MR. G. FLIGHT: The day that that f l·ag, Mr. Speaker, is adopted in t.his House it will be a day of infamy for this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 4204 - ---- ·----

May 16, 1980 Tape No. 1610 NM- 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. member for Grand Bank. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MR. THOMS: I do not think the han. member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Andrews) should be as presumptuous as he obviously is now by banging on his desk there. Mr. Speaker, I would like to have a few words to say on this amendment. And I think maybe I can best start off by quoting the great Irish playwright, Brendan Beehan, who once said that, "critics are like eunuchs in a harem, they see the trick done every night and cannot do it themselves." Now it is very easy, Mr.

Speaker, it is very easy for one to stand in this House and criticize this new design. There has been evidence to me that there has been a cop out, to an extent, on both sides of the House. It is a free vote. It is a free vote and I guess I interpret that as being able to stand here and criticize the argument put forward by any member of this House. But I have heard a lot of excuses, a lot of excuses for voting for the flag, and a lot of excuses for voting against the flag. There has certainly been evidence of a lack of conviction. And I guess this was most evident by the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr.

Barry], who certainly gave the impression that he did not like the flag. The flag did not grab him. But he was going to vote for the flag anyway. Mr. Speaker, I would also like to correct some of the impressions given about the Committee and Mr. Pratt. Mr. Speaker, Mr. Pratt does not deserve the criticism that has been levelled at him in this House. He just does not deserve it. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear~ MR. THOMS: Mr. Pratt was no more than a professional person, a professional person, who gave "assistance to the Committee in designing the flag.

There was no attempt on his part to force a particular design on the Committee. The Committee made up its mind of its own free ~~11. There was no force. There was no coercion. And I really see nothing wrong with how the choice was made when it came to the Committee. There were seven people, seven. The seven people could not make up their own minds of 4205

May 16, 1980 Tape No. 1610 NM - 2 $. THOMS: whi _ch design they wanted, which. design they wanted. So it is a well known method, we could all . agree on Q_ne partiCUlar design that we would take as our second cboice. Certainly it was not the one that I wanted. The design that I wanted out of the silc: that were preser1ted by the artist nobody else wanted. Nobody else wanted it. It had a lot more red in it, Mr. Speaker. I am partial to red. I like red. It is the Liberal colour and I like it. I alii partial to red. MR. NEARY: HR. 'll!O ~: red and less Tory blqe. MR. NEAAY: HR. MORGAN: MR. THOMS: MR. HOLLETT: MR.

NEARY: Nicer than Tory blue. And I would have liked to have seen more Right on. -Hear, hear~ A most partisan flag. Mr. Speaker - Yes, two-thirds blue. Go out, boy, a(l d apologize to your cons ti tuen ts. 4206

May 16, 1980 Tape No. 1611 so - l MR. L. THOMS: I am concemed about what is happening in this Province. The flag issue is part of it. Right at the mment this Province is in confrontation, is at loggerheads, it is at war with Nova Scotia. It is in a confrontation position with Ottawa. Mr. Speaker, you talk about offshore oil and gas, you put me in the seat occupied by the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. L. Barry) in this Province and I will have an agreement with Ottawa within twenty-four hours that 90 per cent of the people of this Province will accept. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. IOORGAN: MR. L. THOMS: Hear, hear.

You are going to give it away, are you? lind I i!llll not going to give it away but I can assure you that 90 per cent of the people of this Province - the other 10 per cent being the real greedy people will not accept it - but 90 per caat will accept it but this government does not want an agreement with ottawa because that is not confrontation politics. Mr. Speaker,. one of the more serious confrontations that we have on the go right now, I saw it in Marys town at the Fisheries conference, we have lfewfoundlanders set - MR. SPEAKER: (Butt) Order, please! order, please!

The hon. gentleman is speaking to the uendalant on the flagi' MR. L. THOMS: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I am speaking to the amancD.ent on the flag, yes t and I am trying to show how these conf~ntations are analoqoous to the flag confrontation that we haw in the Province today. MR. S. NEARY: Hear, hear. A good point. MR. L. THOMS: But we do have Newfoundlander against N-foundlander, we have the South coast fistwu:man against the Northeast ' coast fishermen. MR. S • NEAll!': we had a vicious attack today on T.J. Hardy mi. outsttanding Newfoundlander. AN RON. MEMBER: He.r, hear. MR. L.

THOMS : We have, I believe, in this Province a very serious threat to confederation. 4207

May 16, 1980 Tape No. 1611 so - 2 MR. S. NEARl:: Right on. MR. L. THOMS: - a very serious threat. MR. NEARl:: Separatists. MR. L. THOMS: The minister of Mines and Energy(Mr. L. Barry) said he was misquoted. He did not mean to say, "It was a serious threat :but that there would be a disenchantment with Ottawa," well, Mr. Speaker, that together with the controversy that is raging in this Province albeit aided and abetted by certain members of the pz:ess, these are things that deeply concern me as a Newfoundlander · but I see it happening, I see it happening with this administration.

I have to take exception when my friend from Windsor - Buchans (Mr. G. Flight) quoted from a letter and the person writing the letter said that in his opinion the PCs have 'done a , !credible job. Now, I am sorry but I could not - anybody who would make a statement like that - I could n9t acc:.pt the statement about the flag f = him. I just could not accept it. The man does not know what he is talking about. I would not take advice f- him on the flag. Mr.

Speaker, I said ci>n the first day this debate began that there was one condition laid down by the connittee that I did not know was fulfilled and that was the fifth condition. And while I think about it,Mr. Speaker, the Flag COmmittee did .. 4208

Mav 16, 1980 Tape 1612 EC - 1 MR. L. THOMS: consciously decide that all seven members would not go to every meeting, that we would split up - some would go to one meeting, some would go to another meeting. And the reason that I was not at the meeting held in my district is the reason I stated the other day, that I was unable to travel at the till'S. I was in a body cast. I want to get that on the record because what I am saying today is going to go out to my constituents and I want them to know why I did not attend the meeting in Grand Bank. But, Mr.

Speaker, as I said, the one thing that has bothered me throughout this, and more particularly now, is the one condition that the flag would have to be accepted by a majority of the people. In the Chairman 1 s report it ended up by saying, 'be widely accepted' • And, Mr. Speaker, there may be - and there probably is - a great silent majority in this Province today in connection with the flag. There may be a great silent majority, a large number of whom really could not care less whether we had a distinctive flag or not, really could not care less whether the Union Jack is retained as the flag of this Province.

There may be a lot of others who like the design, who like the flag. But I do know that there are a lot of people out there who do not like the design of this flag. SOME HON. MEMBERS s MR. L. THOMS: Hear, hear! I am not prepared to say it is the vast majority out there who do not like the flag. What I am saying is 1 of those who responded, a vast majority of them do not like the design of this flag and they do not want it. Now, Mr. Speaker, I also question whether the majority o:f this House wants this particular design. I question that.

There has been a definite lack of participation in this debate by government merilers. I have not heard from Fortune - Hermitage, I have not heard from Menihek or Gander or Bonavista South. And I can go on and on and on. Hl.llliler West has not been heard from, except on the Open Line shows trying to defend his position. 4209

May 16, 1980 Tape 1612 EC- 2 MR. L. THOMS: Now, Mr. Speaker, this is an important issue. It is an important debate, it is an important bill. Everybody on this side has gotten up. SOME HON. MEMBEIIS: Oh, oh! MR . L. THOMS: You just listen. Everybody on this side has gotten up and stated where they stand on this ilnportant issue. SOHE HON. MEMBEIIS : Rear, hear! MR. L. 'mOMS: Kenny Roqers would have had a lot of cowards of the county, Mr. Speaker, to choose from around here. But I resent the arroguce and the lack of participation by government lllelllbers in this debate.

And they are showing- the same arrogance - the Qebate would have been over a dozl!n times - the Minister of Tourism, Recreation and Culture (Mr. R. Dawe) has been on his feet a dozen times attempting to close this debate. It is a bill sponsored by the Premier himself, and he has not had the intestinal fortitude 4210 ------ ..-·-·-:·••:.,.-.·--~--~-....- '=""~--~·- -:;;.:..1~-. ~ : _;r.:_ ~ ....

May 16, 1980 Tape No. 1613 NM- l MR. THOMS: to stand in this House and speak on this particular bill. He has not had it. And do not tell me, do not tell me, because the minister has been on his feet to close the debate with the Premier in his seat. MR. NEARY: . Hear, hear! MR. THOMS: So for him to say that he is going to speak is incorrect. He would have been happy - the Premier of this Province would have been happy to close this debate without having spoken. Now,I am supposed to support this piece of legislation in view of what has happened since last week in this House? SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. THOMS: MR.

NEARY: MR. THOMS: in view of what has happened? MR. WARREN: MR. THOMS: on the other side of the House? MR. NEARY: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. THOMS: Oh, oh! Since what has happened? Cowards. Am I supposed to support this legislation With a bunch of cowards. In view of what I have seen happening Weaklings. Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker, I would like to hear silence on both sides of the House if I may. MR. SPEAKER {Butt) : Order, please! Order, please! The hon. member wishes to be heard in silence and that is his right. The hon. member for Grand Bank. MR.

THOMS: As I said, there are a lot of things, and this flag debate is bringing it out, Mr. Speaker, it is showing me what is happening· in this Province. Everything is being - it is a real ramming session. This is being rammed through the House. We have got confrontation on every front, every front. Newfoundlander against Newfoundlander, Canadian against Canadian, province against province, and I do not like the direction that this administration 4 211

May 16, 1980 MR. THOMS: MR . WARREN : MR. THOMS: Tape No. 1613 NM - 2 is taking this Province. I do not like it. Right on. Mr. Speaker, the hon. the Premier gets up on his feet in answer to a question,yesterday, that I asked, 'Would he reconsider permitting the Canadian Legion to speak before the Bar of this House?' And the Premier got up and talked about theaffront this would be to this House and to the parliamentary procedure. Well, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to remind the Premier of this Province, and I would like· to remind every hon. gentleman and lady on the other side of the House, that we would not have any parliamentary democracy, we would not be here if it were not for those who now form the Canadian Legion. For the Premier of this Province, Mr. Speaker, to get up, have the audacity to get up, have the audacity to rise in his seat and compare the Canadian Legion to the Monarchist League or the Orange Lodge, or the Knights of Columbus, Mr.

Speaker, is a real insult to every man and woman who fought in the two great wars and the Korean conflict. It is an "insult to them. It is an insult to them. MR . NEARY: Hear, hear! MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, I probably have as many or more Orangemen as any district in this Province, and there is not one Orangeman in the district of Grand Bank, Mr . Speaker, who would not appreciate and respect the enormous sacrifice that was made by the Newfoundlanders who went overseas. Not one of them. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. THOMS: Not one of them. But, Mr.

Speaker, I saw a lack of respect yesterday in this House - MR. WARREN: By the Premier. MR. THOMS: I saw a lack of respect in a letter from the President of the Council to the Canadian Legion, and I saw a l~ck of respect when the Premier got on his feet to try to justify and weasle his way out of refusing to permit a member of the Canadian Legion to come before the Bar of this House. MR. NEARY: Right on. Right on. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! 4212

May 16 , 1980 Tape No. 1613 NM - 3 ~IR. THOMS : Can you im agine, Mr . Speaker . XR. HANCOC:.'<: You would not know but it was ~~e first time it was done . MR . THOMS: Dalton Camp was percitted to come befo re the Bar of this House . MR. WARREN: lo/ho is Dalton Camp? MR . THOMS: Dalton Camp, the on e- time Liberal who turn ed Tory . What did Dal ton Cam p - he was Presid ent of th e Tory Party . MR. NEARY: Right. MR . THOMS: He had mor e right to come befo re the Bar of this House than somebody representing the Canadian Legion . MR . i:iANCOCK : Or re presenting rfewfoundland . 4213

May 16, 1980 Tape No. 1614 AH-1 MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, that to me is an insult to the Canadian Legion that I cannot accept. I cannot accept it. The canadian Legion should have been permitted - if any organization, any person was ever permitted to come before the bar of this House of Assembly, Mr. Speaker, it should have been a representative of the Canadian Legion. And as I said, Mr. Speaker, and I make no apologies for it, and I have as many Orangemen as anybody, that you cannot compare an organization such as the Canadian Legion to other organizations. It cannot be done. MR. FLIGHT: MR.

THOMS: Without the people who fought in World Wars l and 11- We would not be here. That is the simple fact of it, we would not be here, we would not have our parliamentary traditions. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, I am not voting against this flag. I am voting against what this government has made it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. THOMS: I am voting against the arrogance which is shown by the lack of participation. That is what I am voting against. I am trying to point out to the people of this Province what is happening to this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear,hear! MR. THOMS: Mr.

Speaker, I throw out the same challenge, the same challenqe that others on this side of the House hawe thrown out. I would like to hear where you really stand on this issue, where you really stand. I know where the member for St. John's Center (Dr. McNicholas) stands. I know. MR. WARREN: Good man, good man. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (BAIRD): Order, pl.ease! MR. NEARY: Do not be so cowardl.y. MR. THOMS: I know where the member for St. John's Center (Dr. McNicholas) stands. And a few of the others, even though it has been wishy-washy, and you know why they are voting that way.

But 4214 ---- ------ ----

Hay 16,1980 Tape No. 1614 AE-2 MR. TliQMS: I 1o10uld suspect, Mr. Speaker, that those who have to stand on the other si .de of the House and support this flag are deathly afraid · that what they say may somehow be reported and get back to their constituents. That is why I think they are. not standing in their seats to be counted. I do not think it is going to 1o10rk. Mr. speaker, it is not going to 1o10rk but that is what is happening. That is what is ha:Ppening. It really boggles the mind.

I mean, here we have the Premier, the Premier's bill and the Pl;:'E!llli.er has sat in• his seat on occas:lon after occasion quite wi -lling to let the minister rise and close the debate without the Premier fir .st having spoken. AIId do you e:Xpect me to support a government bill under those conditioll$? Mr. Speaker, unless I cal). hear some good arguments on the other side,some l;>et .ter arguments than I have heard so far, I will be voting fo:~; this amendment.

And if ~s amendment is defeated I will be voting for a bill that was brought in by the Premier of this Province who did not have the il;ltestinal fortitude to stand qp and defend his own bill. Thank you very 1111.1ch, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, h(!ar! MR. sPEAKER (Baird) : You have a lovely voice this morning. r reC'ognize the hon. member for Bonavista North. 4215 -----------~--- - • • -r..,...-·--·---·

May 16, 1980 Tape No. 1615 EL - 1 MR. L. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, I heard the Minister of Labour and Manpower (J .Dinn) say that he would like to speak if we have him a chance. Now, I would gladly yield if a minister from the other side, anybody, other than closing off the debate, not the trickery of closing the debate. So would the Minister of Labour and Manpower like to speak? MR. J. DINN: No, I am speaking on the main motion. MR. L. STIRLING: To speak on the main motion. You do not wish on this one. MR. D. HANCOCK: Be is hoping, he is going to have a heart attack between now and then. MR. L.

STIRLING: Would the other part of Bonavista Bay, the member for Bonavista South (J. Morgan), would you like to now speak? MR. MORGAN: I am not in my seat at the present time. MR. L. STIRLING: Would you like for me to wait till you get to your seat so that you can speak? I!IIR. J. MO!GJ\N: Carey on. MR. SPEAKER: (Baird) Does the member wish to speak? MR , L. STIRLING: Well, you see, Mr. Speaker, during the last (inaudible) debate, during the debate, Mr. Speaker - MR. S. NEARY: A young boy in the woods. --- --- MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The Chair has g:nsat difficulty hearing. MR. L.

STIRLING: During the last coiiiiii!Jlts made by my colleaque, my courageous colleague - SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. STIRLING: happening, Mr •. Speaker. MR. F. STAGG: r MR. SPEAKER: MR. L. STIRLING: MR. D. HANCOCX: Bear, hear. - from Grand Bank (L.Thoms). See what is You do not have the courage to stop me. Order, please 1 If we only had television in the House - I would like to know how they would miss you. 4216

May 16, 1980 Tape No. 1615 EL - 2 MR. L. STIRLING: If we could only have &ound in the House. The member for Stephenville (F.Stagg), who yesterday . refused to allow television in the House, who refused to allow to have sound in the eHouse ,at the colllll!ittee meetings, the member for Stephenville who-is so concerned that what gets out is his own private,edited version. If they could only see, this morning, what is happening. _!f ~ -people of Newfoundl.and could only see what is happening. And what has happened? And what has happened is that a member of the Flag Committee - MR. D.

HANCDCK: Have a good weekend and make it a couple of months. MR. STIRLING: A member of tha Flag Committee, a good Committee, a Committee that did a job to the best of their knowledge and ability 1 we saw a member of that Committee say on the fifth condition that they had set up, a good Collll!littee, a good condition, the fifth condition was," it must be accepted by the majoritypf the people and he was ,~straightf~rward he was one of the first members to speak in this de!Hite and he gave the reasoning of the Committee • .

Now, then the Royal Canadian Legion and people from all over the Province - early in this debate when I was accused of shouting and screaming and being emotional,and I was refleCting the concerns expressed to me by the members of my district, the people in the district and the people of the Canadian Legion, a~ least .one member of the Ccmmi~tee was listening, hacl an open mind on the situation and I said, Well, maybe the Royal Canadian Legion has a point.

The very least -' I that we can do - this was an opelllllinded znember of the Committee who said, 'Well, look, maybe, just maybe the Royal Canadian Legion has a point that they want to make. They want tci make it strongly. We should liaten to them. Let us bring them before the Bar of the House. I ha·J~ = ;::pen mind: he said, 'as a member of the Committee. Let us hear what they have to say~ 4217

,_. May 16, 1980 ~ape No. 1615 EL - 3 MJl.. L. STIRI..ING: Now, that seemed reasonable. The first person who sugqested something like that was the member for Torngat ~unt ,ains (G. warren). He said, 'took, the reason you are not getting any reaction from the people is that the COmmittee are the only ones that saw this design!

And the co111111ittee brought it into the House of Assembly and t11e Premier illlllledi.ately made it government policy and then the next day, after pre ,ssure started to come in, said; Well, it can be a free vote: The lll8lllber for Tornqat Mountains said; 'LOok why does the eom.ni.ttee not take this back out to the people? Let us go back out and let them make their comments! Very reasonable. Unless it is not in keeping with the Premier's intention of declaring war somewhere in the next day or two or the next month' or the next year~ 4218

May 16, 1960 Tape 1616 EC- l MR. L. STIRLING: We do not need a new flag to go fight a war somewhere - I do not think we do. Very reasonable, a very reasonable suggestion. And then it appeared that although the Premier said it is a free vote, you have the most outspoken members of the Cabinet, the most outspoken members on the other side silenced, embarrassed, and the minister who introduced this being embarrassed, try­ ing to get up because none of his colleagues got up.

Anybody who attends the House knows the sequence of one speaker on one side, one :=paaker on the other side, and I think it should be noted, Mr, Speaker, that nobody from the other side has spoken on this amendment, this very reasonable amendment. I must say, the last time I spoke on this particular subject I was followed by the House Leader on the other side (Mr. Will. Marshall), who accused me of just making politics - that is all that it is -by his very nature,then, being political. I heard a report on the radio this morning, and, Mr.

Speaker, if it were parliamentary to say that he was misleading the news media and he was misleading the people of Newfoundland, if it were parliamentary to suggest that, I would do it. But since it is not parliamentary to suggest it I will not suggest it.

But the House Leader, very familiar with the rules of the House, very familiar with the procedure , came out to try to convince the people of Newfoundland that what the Opposition had done yesterday was to say, 'We are going to vote for the flag six months from now.' Now 1 in any other setting - if you were outside the House, if I were not speaking in the House, I would be able to say that he was deliberately misleading the press, but in the House I cannot use that lti.nd of thing. And I would say outside the House that he was deliberately trying to twist things around.

Outside the House I would say it, but I cannot say it in the House, because this is a House where we are supposed to have respect for the views of the members of the other side. What did we really do yesterday? We agreed to a request made by the Royal Canadian Legion, made by people from all over this Province to say, 'Let us have a look at this thing and let us debate 4219

May 16, 1980 Tape 1616 EC - 2 ~· L. STIRLING: it and let us decide. So what we moved was to delay it for six months. In the House of Assembly there are only certain things that the Opposition can do, and that is one of the techniques used to kill a bill, to delay it fer six months. The House Leader (Mr. wm.

Marshall) did not say yesterday - he did not try to give the impression to the news media - the correct impression - that we waited until we had only two speakers left, because only somebody who has not spoken can move an amendment, and it was part of the very limited tecimique that we have in this Ho,; .se to give the people a chance to be heard. And we heard from one courageous :member of the Flag Col!lnittee this morning, and I would anticipate that others on the Flag Committee will say, 'Well, that is reasonable.' If we are right we will be just as right six months from now. we are coming up to the SUIIIIIer.

We have so many important things. They would like to give the impression that we are delaying things, when it is the government who have decided every day to introduce the flag bill. MR. S. NEARY: Right on! MR. L. STIRLDIG: Every day we have asked them, How about doing something on the Budget? The Budget has just been sitting there. We have hundreds of bills - we have the ·Fisheu.n' s Wo:rkers' Compensation Act, we have environment bills, we have the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. J. Dinn) playing games with the Statistics Canada figures.

He gets up and he finall.y gets them to rally around the flag and thump on their desks yesterday because he made a spectacle of himself cziticizing the federal statistics - never did one thing about dealing with the real problems. Well, let me get it clear, Mr. Speaker. Let us make it clear for the benefit of anybody who has any doubt about it. Nobody in the House has, but the same House Leader who can say to the press - the same House Leader who outside this House can do so118thing which I cannot say in the House. Outside the House I can say he deliberately misled it, but in the House I cannot.

But to make it clear - this side will give unanimous agreement right now to put this flag debate off until 4220

May 16, 1980 Tape No. 1617 NM - l MR. STIRLING: a debate in the next session, six months from now, Fall session, the session next year, and get on to the budget, get on to unemployment, to Worker's Compensation, because they are the ones who decide what we are going to do every day, except on Private Members' Day. Now, a couple of comments that I must give thanks to my colleague from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) for. I did not realize, I should have realized, I could have, that wherever this Committee went, wherever the Committee went they kept a Hansard.

So I spent until two o'clock this morning going through ~ll the reports ~~at I could get my hands on and I would suggest that members on the other side would find it very informative if they did it. I may be able to point out a few things to the Flag Committee, that because they were meeting here and there and a lot of other things intervened, I might be able to point out a few things to the Flag Committee that they may not have even realized themselves unt~lyou read all of this and get a pattern. Let me say I have great respect for the intellect of the Chairman of the Flag Committee. I really do. MR. NEARY: MR.

STIRLING: MR. WARREN: MR. STIRLING: I do not ltnow. I really do. I have second thoughts. No, I have great respect for his intellect. And I do not even know if he realizes it, but from the first Committee meeting he was trying to direct the witnesses in a specific direction, and I would like to - I am not accusing him of doing ~,ything deliberately, and I said I have great respect for the Chairman.

Let us take the Gander meeting~ everybody who made a presentation at the Gander meeting, everyone who made a presentation at the Gander meeting, and there were only four or five of them, all made reference to the fact they would like to keep the Union Jack. Now, I do not know if the Chairman realized this but in the very earliest meetings he said- see if I can get the reference, it is in AH-3, in case the Chairman would like to check it out, and he was talking about 4221

May 16, 1980 Tape No. 1617 NM - 2 MR. STIRLING: "What about an abstraction? Can we put in something abstract." Now this is in the Gander meeting. And everybody at that meeting, one after the other said, "Nothing abstract. We do not want anything abstract. We want the Union Jack. And we want something about Labrador." But everyone at that Gander meeting said, "No abstractions." Everyone of them. Another thing came up at the Gander meeting. Maybe the Committee intended this from the beginning. Maybe they did.

But he said at the Gander meeting which was in February that at that time they had given the assignment to Mr. Pratt. That was back in February. I do not know if members on the other side are aware of it. I am not suggesting that the Committee meant to cover that up. But in the February meeting they said they had given the assignment to Mr. Pratt to design the flag. Since February. All the rest of the meetings the people were being given the opportunity to present their views and Mr. Pratt would do the designing. That is as early as the Gander meeting. MR. NEARY: A foregone conclusion. MR.

STIRLING: Another thing that shows the foregone conclusion of the Committee, or at least Mr. Carter. And he said,- ."We automatically tend to bind both sides." Because they are going to bind both leaders. MR. NEARY: their caucuses. MR. STIRLING: Gander meeting. MR. NEARY: MR. STIRLING: MR. NEARY: MR. HOLLETT: MR. STIRLING: MR. NEARY: (Inaudible) That is right 1 the leaders can control That is what Mr. Carter said in the The leaders. Yes, automatically would bind both sides. That is right. on behalf of the Premier and Mr. Jamieson. That is what he was talking about. Binding both sides. That is true.

Read it out for them. 4222

1-'.ay lG, 1980 MR. STIRLING: on the Gander meeting. MR. HOLLETT: MR. STIRLING: Tape No. 1617 NM - 3 No. I do not want to use all my time Read out that though, that is important. He said it all through. It is not only that Gander meeting. "We have engaged Chris Pratt," that is the exact expression he used. DW-1. I did not want to mark this up because it was somebody else's copy. DW-L That is DW-2. Now- 4223

May 16, 1980 Tape No. 1618 AH-1 MR. HOLLETT: MR. STIRLING: MR. HOLLETT: MR. STIRLING: They will give you leave for this. They will not give me leave for that . They will not give me leave? I will have to use up my time. The exact expression was that we have engaged Chris Pratt. On February 12th this is what he said. Then he got into talking about stylistic abstractions. One of the people at the Gander meeting, a Mr. Baird, put his finger on it right then. MR. NEARY: Not the Speaker? MR. STIRLING: I think he said he was in his seventies so I presume it was not the Speaker but only the Speaker would know that.

What Mr. Baird said at the Gander meeting; he said, 'I hope you are not going to stir up animosity amongst all Newfoundlanders.' What a prophetic statement. 'I hope your new flag will not stir up animosity amongst all Newfoundlanders.' That is out of their own meetings. MR. HOLLETT: democratic about ~~. would it? AN HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: MR. STIRLING: It would not have done if they been Your time is up. Your time is up. A student by the name of Samuelson made a presentation at one of the meetings at which he spoke. He said, 'On behalf of a lot of the young students at the university, retain the Union Jack.' MR.

HOLLETT: On behalf of the students? MR. STIRLING: Yes. On behalf of the students. On March 28th at the Colonial Building all of the presentations with one exception, all of the presentations, March 28th, asked for a retention of the Union Jack. At the Port aux Basques meeting I am sure that my colleague the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) - AN HON. MEMBER: MR. HOLLETT: MR. STIRLING: Do not be so boring. No, it is interesting. You have to make up your mind, Mr. Chairman. 4224

May 16,1980 Tape No. 1618 AH-2 MR. STIRLING: The last time I spoke I was accused of shouting and screaming and being emotional and now I am just quoting the Chairman and you say do not be boring. So you have to make up your mind which way you want it. I was quoting the Chairman and the Chairman has to decide whether it was boring or not. MR. HOLLETT: They were his words. Right? MR. NEARY: He made some awful blunders and awful statements when he was there. MR. STIRLING: Se~ what the Chairman said in Port aux Basques, at the Port ~ux Basques meeting. MR. NEARY: save the taxpayers dollars. MR.

STIRLING: Where they told him to go back and The Chairman said, there are two feelings coming through. Now, this was in the Port aux Basques meeting. There are two feelings coming through. Everywhere we go there are two feelings. One is w~ should do som~thing to retain Labrador and the other one is that we have to retain the Union Jack. That is what the Chairman said. MR. HANCOCK: He did not? MR. STIRLING: That is what the Chairman said at the Port aux Basques meeting. And when he talked again about abstractions they said, no abstractions. The one consistent view he got in every one of the ~P.etings - MR.

HOLLETT: The flag is totally opposite. MR. STIRLING: I am just quoting the Chairman because I had the opportunity to put it all together to try to reach a consensus and I am just quoting the Chairman. He said, two feelings coming through, Labrador must be considered and the Union Jack must be considered. This is a new method of - MR. HOLLETT: MR. STIRLING: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. STIRLING: Good research. Oh,yes. Silence! There should be a few seconds of silence,Mr.Speaker. 4225 ~

Hay 16 , 1980 Tape No. 1618 Ah-3 MR. NEARY: MR . STIRLING: Ne should have a t'<IO minute si ~en ce. Somebody was asking about how do we - Mr. Speake:-, I reall'z' bad thought that 'Mr. Carter ' would comment on some of these things because I am quoting him and I really am being very serious. I am taking the advice of those who said, "Do not be emotional." I am trying to look at what the Committee itself found. The Chairman, and maybe he is concerned for what I am about to say, when they ·..ere saying how are you going t.o get agreement?

And he said providing we do not come up with a design that is too awful - AN BON. MEI•!BER: Too what? MR. STIRLING : Too awful. a-w-f-u-1, o-f -f-a-1, the same ki:nd of thing, yes. The same kind of cC!nnot;ation ,, MR. WARREN: The same meaning. MR . STIRLING: I am only quoting the Cha~ of the Committee and you have to decide whether th ey are- 4226

May 16, 1980 '!'ape No.l619 SD - l MR. G. WARro::N: He is on your side. MR. L. STIRLING: The Olairman of the Committee MR. S. NEARY: He does not know whose side he is on. MR. L. STIRLING: - in explainin~ - MR. D. HOLLETT: He is symbolic. MR. L. STIRLING: - the Chairman of the Col!llllittee said, "P.z:ovidin~ we do not come up with a desi~ that is too awful~ we expect to ~t it passed." HR. D. HOLLETT : They are going to bind both sides. MR. L.

STIRLING: And he used, for example, Mr. ,Pratt's name and said, "David Blackwood had called him up and said he would like to sublllit a design." David Blackwood, and the Chairman knows this because out of courtesy I told him about my call from David Blackwood. I wrote the Premier about the call frem David Blackwood and now in the newspapers you can see Mr. Blackwood has expressed his own view. Mr.

Blackwood who is probably one of the greatest of N-foundland' s artists, one of the greatest Newfoundlanders of all time was in discussion with the Olai:r:wm of the Committee on a number of occasions and said, "Yes, I will be sublllitting it." Now, since I started to do a little research into this I found that a nwrber of artists, and I do not want to nama them but they are of the same caliber and I am sure that the Chairman has been told this, a nmnber of artists said, "Look, you do not design a flaq out of just thin air.

First of all you ha'ft to research all other flaqs then you ha'ft to put to~ther various combinations." And Mr. Blackwood, now this is the thinq that­ I admire my collea~ue fran Grand Bank (Mr. L. 'l'homs) for havinq tha couraqe to see 1 and the openaindadnesa to see the wisdom of this -ndllent- the six month delay, Mr. Blackwood sublllitted two designs and I ha- seen them. I think that they are designs that may not fit wut the Chai:DIIan of the Committee wanted,but they certainly would fit what the majority of Newfoundlanders would like to see in their flaq. SOME RON, MEMBERS : Riqht on. MR. D.

HOLLE'l'T: That is who owns the flaq,riqht~ 4227 -- .

May 16, 1980 Tape No. 1619 SD- 2 MR. L. STIRLING: But the insult to Mr. Blackwood or Mr. Pratt or anybody else was that they were going to decide on the flag on April 30th regardless, and as the 0\airman told liB, Mr. Blac:kwood 's design came in a day or two late - AN HON. MEMBER: Oh, oh. MR. L. STIRLING: - and he did not even consider it, did not ewn show it to the C:OIIIIIittee 1 It did not get five lllinutes consideration. MR. S. NEARY: Whatsan ignori!IIIIUs. MR. D • HOLLE'l'T : Because cf one or two days? ··-- ··- MR. S • NEAAY: (inaudible) parliamsntary, Sir - MR. L.

STIRLING: And I wrote the P%9111ier and said, "Look, what more evidence do you want of the need for a delay'? Here is one of our greatest NewfOundlander'artists - MR. D • BOLLE'l"l' : Yes, Sir. MR. L. STIRLING: - who has sublllitted a design and it was thrown out because it missed the deadline, as if we had to haw a war tOJDDrralf. " MR. D. HOLLE'l'T: Different from Pratt but still - MR. S. NEARY: Who set the deadline? MR. L. STIRLING: Who set the deadline is right? Why did it have to be April 30th? MR. S. NEAAY; The Bouse is the one that - _MR. J. ~ARTER: Would the member give way? MR. L.

STIRLING: Not if you take it out of rrry time. MR- h- NZARY; Get up and make a speech yourself. MR. L. STIRLING: Not if you take it out of my time. MR. L. STIRLING; So, Mr. Blackwood, a constituent of mine - and I hope you will respond, Mr. Chairman, because I am just quoting- you. Mr. Speaker, what i• the ruah?

We have managed for 400 ~ars to survive without this flag - C'OO or 500 years without this flaq - and - had a flag that managed to get us through two wars and unless - are anticipating a war the day after toJIIDnow I would think that it would be IIIUch 1110re appropriate to puC in the ambulance service, it is muc:h 1110re of a deadline, much more appropriate to put in the WO:dcers' C:OII'()IInsation for fishe.~:~~~en with a de edline , 4226

May 16, 1980 Tape No. 1619 SD - 3 MR. G. WARREN: That has got to go through the system. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. L. STIRLING: But the Chairman showed right from the· be- ginning-at the Gander meeting he talked about abstractions and everybody rejecte? it. He talked about two triangles - MR. 0. HOLLETT: Did he? MR. L. STIRLING: - and he had Mr. Pratt appointed at that stage MR. D. HOLLETT: He had it in mind then. MR. L. STIRLING: Oh, yes, at that stage. MR. D. HOLLETT: He had the triangels in mind then. MR. L. STIRLING: Now, in Grand Bank he tried it again. Now, he said something in Grand Bank - MR. G.

FLIGHT: Amusing is it? MR. L. STIRLING: No, it is not a1'11lsing. Again, it is something · that you might consider MJC. 0 •. HOLLETT: A serious note. MR. L. STIRLDIG: - you might consider - MR. G. FLIGHT: The Chairman said this? MR. L. STIRLDIG: No, ln Grand Bank;- again. if I -ra outside of the House I might be using the word misleading. MR. D. HOLLETT: You a:z:e not supposed to be emctional so you a:z:e going to be very serious. 4229

!Iay 16, 1980 Ta9e No. 1620 DW - 1 1·1R. L. STIRLING: No, no this is- MR. D. HOLLET'l': Right? !-IR. L. STIRLING: Yes, he was in Grand Bank.All these pages - just let me see what happened - let me read you some of the concerns in Grand Bank. Another great Newfoundlander, a man who put together this great fisheries conference last weekend, Mayor Fred Tessier. MR.. B. TUL!C: What did he say to them? MR. L. STI~LING : He had to interrupt the Chairman because somebody else was making a representation. He said, 'Excuse me, are you saying that your committee has the final decision in the name of the Legislature?' MR.

G. FLIGHT: That is right. There is a question fo:·them to answer. MR. L. STIRLING: Here is what_the Chair~an said, 'Well, obviously the Legislature·has the final decision but since we are proposing' - Mr. Tessier interrupts, 'Who recommends to the Legislature?' Mr. Chairman says, 'Well since we ;ue ccmposed of both sides of the House', Mr. Tessier says, 'Yes' - 'And we have been instructed to come up with a design, to reject our design would be almost to making non- sense of the exercise•. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. D. HOLLETT: The 29th. of April it is all over, is that what they are saying? MR. L.

STIRLING: Mr. Tessier said, 'The point I aake is this,will it come up on the floor of the House?' Mr. Tessier could not believe what he was hearing. He was doing something very important, 9robably one of the greatest Newfoundlanders and one of the greatest residents of that area, one of the greatest councillors, Mr. Fred ~ 4230

:·lay 16, 1980 Tape )Ia. 1620 Dl~ - 2 :!R. L. STIRLI!!G: Tessier was attending this meeting. And he said, 'Yes, but the point I make is will it come to the floor of the House?' ~r. Tessier wanted to keep at it. He said, 'Yes, there would be debate on it', this is the Chairman.

I can imagine the Chairman - I maybe should change to the soft spoken voice of the Chairman instead of shouting - in his very soft-spoken voice saying, 'Yes, there would be debate about it ~ But I would think, unless the design was quite obnoxious to a number elements of society that it would be improper for the House to reject it. improper for th2 House to reject it: Now this, - again I have to be careful because the member for St. John's North (Mr. Carterl is such a gentle, soft-spoken person that you do not realize what is happening when he says it so in it than he did. He said, In order to get Mr.

Te•sier off, I may put a little more emphasis 'The House might amend it'. .~he House might amen~ it~ No~ do not forget that they made the deal with the artist that they appointed way back - and I do not know if _the Collllllittee is awan of solll!l of this sort of thing - right? He said, •The House might amend it, might make some minor changes but to reject it out of hand would make nonsense of it'. Another prophetic statement made by lfr. Tessier, He says, 'Well, obviously it would become a tool for political games'. Mr.

Speaker, again he brought up the question of abstractions and again every­ body at that meeting threw . out the question of abstrac­ tions, everybody! Mr. Speaker, I could not find anywhere in all the presentations - they said they took all of the presentations and gave them to the ~rtist - when 'the Chairman tried to plant that question, I could not find anywhere that somebody came up and said, 'Yes, we will agree to an abstraction'. MR. D. HOLLETT: They all dhagz:aed. - ·~- -·--- . - -~- - . 4231

:·1a·t 16 , 1'380 Ta"'e :-lo. 1&20 DW - 3 :1R. L . S':'IRL!NG: All the co~s istencv . '·!r. Speaker , in Corner Brook they tried the same thing again, the Chairman talked about abstractions . I ::auld not find the concensus, Mr. Speaker, that seemed to co me out of these meetinq s. just using the Col!llllittee's Mr. Speaker, I think that own material , and if you put together what the member for Torngat Mountains (Hr. warren) said and you take the open-mindedness of the member of Grand Bank (Mr. ~h orns) .. - 4232 . ..

May 16, 1980 Tape 1621 EC - 1 HR. L. STIRLING: who said, 'Look, it is possible that we are not infallible. ' It is possible that the majority of Newfoundlanders - that the condition that this Committee wisely set has not been fulfilled and now the government is forcing it through - called it a free vote. Mr. Speaker, if you were outside the House you would be able to say that it is misleading . for the Premier to give the impression that it is a free vote and then not let the people speak on the other side, and that it is a government measure. Mr.

Speaker, there is no doubt that the Premier can force this through the House, absolutely no doubt. And from a purely political point of view, I certainly hope that he does, but for the sake of all the Newfoundlanders who may not know what they agree on but they know what they do not like - and what they do not like, Mr. Speaker, has co1re out time after time after time in the Collllllittee's own meetings, and I would suggest that you should take a look at them. And the Olairman (Mr. J.

Carter) very properly said it, what they agreed on, in illl of these meetings evezybody agreed on, a distinctive Newfoundland flag. It must have Labrador. MR. SPEAKER (Baird) : tims is -ap. MR. n. STIRLING: SOME HON. MEMBERS : ·-. I'" MR. L. STIRLING: MR. L. THOMS : pri vileqe. MR. SPEAKER: the member for Grand Bank. MR. L. THOMS: I should like to info:ca the hoD . -.ber _ his_ -,.-· . - By leave to finish that thouqht. By leaw. Okay, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of personal A point of personal privilege, the hon. Mr.

Speaker, it has just been brouqht to my attention that when I finished my few brief remarks o::· the amendment this IIDrninCJ that I stated that I would be voting for the amendment and for the main IIDtion. I would like to make a correction. I will be votinq for the amendment, but I will be voting aqainst the main motion for the adoption of a flaq. I just want to make that clear to the House and to the hon. the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. J. Morg-an). SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! 4233

May 16, 1980 Tape 1621 EC - 2 MR. 14M. MARSHALL: On that point of privilege, Mr. Speaker, that is not a point of privilege, that is just a declaration that the whips are on in the Opposition. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER {Baird) : To the point of privilege. The hon. member has taken the opportunity to clarify his thoughts. Are we ready for the question? MR. G. WARREN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. G. WARm:N: Mr. Speaker, I am obliged to stand up for the second time around to speak for this amendment.

I believe that in my earlier speech last week when I spoke against the flag resolution, I said then I was against it due to the fact that it has not trickled out to Newfoundland and to Labrador. The people have not had a choice, they have not seen the design. One day it was ·put in the papers and the next day it came into- the House of Assembly. Now, since that time, Mr. Speaker, I have had the opportunity of contacting all the CODIIIuni ties in my district. I spoke to the principals of the schools. The schools did a survey of the students from Grades V to ! and XI.

I want to go on record and read out this survey to shaw this government that the children of today are the parents of tomorrow, the children of the future, and just show what the people alonq the Labrador Coast are sayinq about the governmenl; trying to ram this piece of rag down our throats. Mr. Speaker, in Nain there are seventy-five students, thirty-six against, eight for and thirty-one did not care. Now , the reason the thirty-one did not care , which I think has been echoed timB and time again by members on tilis side of the House , is because the government have their priorities wrong.

Somehow or other, there is a room upstairs in the government's head not finished. I do not know which room it is, but there is a room up there not finished and they have their priorities upside down. - .-MR. s& NEMY: - glands to finish the room. MR. G;-WARREN: MR.S.~: otiler side. -~ .i~!ly_ t:,tley are asking for pituitazy To fiaish their room with. (Inaudible) gentlemen on the 4234

May 16, 1980 Tape 1621 EC - 3 MR. G. 1-r.\RREN : In the survey taken of twenty -four tea.chezs in ~ain, sixteen teachers a(]ainst and eighc for . In Davis Inlet where there are the only Naskaupi Indians in ttewfoWldland today, the only Naskaupi Indians that are living today - and there are 224 of them in Davis Inlet - and here we say t.l)eie is a desiqn 4235

May 16, 1980 Tape No. 1622 NM- 1 MR. WARBEN: reflecting the Naskau~i origin. Now in Davis Inlet alone, one hundred per cent against. The only Indians that we have in our Province ana they are completely against it. Something worth noting, completely against it. MR. NEARY: MR. WARREN: What was that again? Repeat that again. I have to repeat this one again 1 yes. In Davis Inlet, the only Naskaupi Indians that we have,and here in Davis Inlet they are one hundred per cent, one hundred per cent against this design because it does not show anything at all about a native origin. It is just a bunch of bologna. MR.

NEARY: And they are theoldest civilization in North America, 30,000 to 40,000 years old. MR. WARREN: So we go into Hopedale- eleven teachers. In Hopedale there are eleven teachers - here is an interesting figure, and I wish the Chairman was'back in his seat because it would really make him probably shout with joy - eleven teachers, five for, five against, and one does not care.

Because as one said, "Look our school is in such a deplorable condition the Minister of Education (Ms Verge) should come up and see it." We go down to Postville, in Postville the teachers and the students and the people in the community, the older men, the younger men, completely against it. eighty per cent against. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. WARREN: MR. NEARY: all the kids are £or it. MR. wrumEN: MR. NEARY: MR. WARREN: MR. CARTER: In Makkovik, the teachers, the pupils, They did not want it. Eighty per cent against. I suppose this crowd will be telling us In Rigolet - It will grow on you. I beg your- pardon?

Will you table it? 4236

May 16, 1980 Tape No. 1622 NM- 2 MR. WARREN: I will table this. Sure. I will table this. MR. NEARY: It will grow on you. MR. WARREN: In Rigolet, the students, the teachers, the parents, everybody against. The students in Rigolet said it was a bunch of triangles and they said, "We have teachers here in the school who are teaching us that all day long." SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh~ MR. WARREN: We know what a triangle is. MR. NEARY: They hate it. It reminds them too much of geometry. They hate it. MR. WARREN: So they said, "Why