April 5, 1976 ALBERTA HANSARD 547 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ALBERTA Title: Monday, April 5, 1976 2:30 p.m. [The House met at 2:30 p.m.] PRAYERS [Mr. Speaker in the Chair] head: NOTICES OF MOTIONS MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, I would ask unanimous consent of the House to file a notice of motion which would appear in today's Votes and Proceedings. Mr. Speaker, by agreement with the Leader of the Opposi­ tion, this motion is to be the designated opposition motion for discussion this Thursday, pursuant to the Standing Orders. In order that the Leader of the Opposition may make the necessary notification by 4 p.m.

Tuesday, I beg leave to move that this motion be printed in Tuesday's Order Paper. Mr. Speaker, the Government House Leader, the Leader of the Opposition, and the hon. Member for Drumheller have received copies of the motion. [Motion carried] head: INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS MR. KOZIAK: M. le President, je suis tres heureux de vous presenter, et par votre intermediaire de presenter aux membres de cette Assemblee, des visiteurs du comte d'Edmonton Strathcona, Soeur Alice Trottier et des etudiants d'une classe d'histoire au College St. Jean, qui sont venus adjourd'hui d'assister aux deliberations de cette Assemblee.

M. le President, je demandrai presentement a ces visiteurs qui sont assis dans la gallerie des membres de se lever afin de se faire reconnaitre par cette Assemblee. MR. SPEAKER: Est-ce que M. le Ministre a une traduction pour l'Assemblee? AN HON. MEMBER: Oui. AN HON. MEMBER: It's easy for you to say. MR. KOZIAK: Mr. Speaker, I was going to address you again as "M. le President" because the common phrase left my tongue. Mr. Speaker, the introduction I made was of history students from a class at College St. Jean, accompanied by Sister Alice Trottier.

They are visiting the Assembly, and I would ask the Assembly to welcome them in the normal fashion. DR. WEBBER: On your behalf, Mr. Speaker, I would like to introduce through you to the Assembly, 24 Grade 6 students at Patricia Heights Elementary School, located in the riding of Edmonton Meadow- lark. They are accompanied by their teacher, Mr. John Zurawell, and parents, Mrs. Myhus and Mrs. Bayley. They are seated in the members gallery, and I ask them to rise and receive the recognition of the Assembly. MR. ASHTON: Mr.

Speaker, I wish to introduce a group of Grade 6 students from Campbelltown School in Sherwood Park. Campbelltown School is Sherwood Park's first school, and one of the best. I will ask them to rise and be recognized by the Assembly. head: TABLING RETURNS AND REPORTS MR. MOORE: Mr. Speaker, as required by statute, I'd like to table copies of the 1975 annual report of the Alberta Department of Agriculture. MR. GETTY: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to table an answer to Motion for a Return No. 149. head: ORAL QUESTION PERIOD U. of C. Faculty of Education MR. CLARK: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to direct the first question to the Minister of Advanced Education. The question deals with consultation between the minister and his department and the universities in Alberta. First, has the minister had an opportunity to have discussions with the University of Calgary, either the president or the dean of the Faculty of Education, as a result of the outside evaluation of the Faculty of Education at that university? DR. HOHOL: Mr.

Speaker, it would be eminently fair for the president of the University of Calgary who commissioned the report to have his opportunity to read, study, and examine it, and make the first statement if he chooses to perform in that vein. I'm certain that he will. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister. Have incidents of harassment or intimidation of students in the Faculty of Education at the University of Calgary in the course of this academic year been brought to the attention of the minister or the department? DR. HOHOL: Not to me personally, Mr. Speaker. MR. CLARK: Mr.

Speaker, a further supplementary question to the minister. The question basically is this: in light of the report from the University of Calgary with regard to the Faculty of Education, is it the intention of the minister to view the report? Is the minister in a position to indicate what effect this report will have on the employment of graduates of the University of Calgary's Faculty of Education this year?

548 ALBERTA HANSARD April 5, 1976 DR. HOHOL: I will simply enlarge my initial answer to the question of the hon. Leader of the Opposition by indicating that the several constituent groups in the University of Calgary must, in fairness, have their opportunity to assess this report. One constituent group surely has to be the Faculty of Education and its leadership, the board of governors of that institu­ tion, and the students collectively as an association and individually. That is the context in which a report of that kind of significance must be dealt with.

I'm looking forward to receiving a copy as soon as possible, reading its contents, and making my own judgments at that time. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the Minister of Education, once again from the same report. First of all, is it the intention of the Minister of Education to have the Board of Education and Teacher Certification view the report and, secondly, meet with the faculty or the president or the dean at the University of Calgary, in light of the comments about teacher training at the university?

These same students will be applying to the minister's department for certification as soon as the academic year is over. MR. KOZIAK: Mr. Speaker, as the hon. Leader of the Opposition is aware, the report was commissioned by the university for the university, not by the Depart­ ment of Education or the Department of Advanced Education. I have not seen the report. I have only received comments by the press in that regard. I've asked for an actual copy of the report to study. Until such time, I think it would be unfair to comment on the contents of the report.

If, in fact, the conclusions the report has reached are true, then there is cause for concern. But at this time, I think that my position must be that I should see the report itself and not rely on the press comments of its contents. U. of A. Faculty of Engineering MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the Minister of Advanced Education. Again, it deals with this question of communication between the universities and the Department of Advanced Education.

Were there discussions with the Minister of Advanced Education and officials from the University of Alberta prior to the University of Alberta taking the decision to put a quota on the number of first- and second-year university students in the Faculty of Engineering? DR. HOHOL: It would be inaccurate, Mr. Speaker, to speak of matters as serious as this and to apply the term "quota". It's not my understanding that it would be a literal quota. Next fall there may have to be restrictions, and there could well be, on some faculties in some universities — in this instance the University of Calgary.

On the matter of consultation, it's just a way of life between senior officials of the department and the institutions in advanced education, and certainly between me and the leadership and the constituent groups in advanced education throughout the province. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister. Whether or not we call it a quota, is the minister in a position to confirm that there will in fact be 200 fewer places in second-year engineering next year than there are this year at the University of Alberta? DR. HOHOL: No, I'm not able to confirm or deny it.

I'm not clear at this moment as to the exact figures for each faculty, each school, or each program of studies for the coming fall in every institution of advanced education. There could well be, and it would not be in the worst interest of Albertans by any means if there was some managed entry into the institutions of advanced education. Alberta Engineers — Preference MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, just one last supplementary question to the Minister of Business Development and Tourism, on the question of engi­ neering students.

Is it still the policy of the Government of Alberta to insist upon preference for Alberta engineers in industrial work in Alberta? MR. DOWLING: Mr. Speaker, as the hon. Leader of the Opposition well knows, all industrial permits granted in the last little while, since some responsible conditions have been put into industrial development permits, indicate that preference will be given to Alberta engineers, labor, and content. U. of C. Faculty of Education (continued) MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the hon. Minister of Advanced Education, for clarification.

In the light of the very unfavorable publicity given to education students attending the University of Calgary, is it the intention of the department to conduct an evaluation of this report and to make that evaluation public at an early time? DR. HOHOL: I should like to respond in two ways, Mr. Speaker. I'm not clear that it was the students who received unfavorable comment. The nature of my reading is that that kind of description was directed at the faculty rather than the students, though obviously there would be some relationship. I'm sure that's what the hon. Member for Spirit River-Fairview means.

It goes without saying, but certainly I'll say it: the report will get the closest kind of study and attention from the department and me. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary question to the hon. Minister of Education, in light of the fact that students graduating from the University of Calgary are now on the job market. I would ask the minister if he can advise the Assembly what priority the Department of Education would give to making an independent evaluation of this report so the graduates would not in fact run into job-finding problems.

April 5, 1976 ALBERTA HANSARD 549 MR. KOZIAK: Well, Mr. Speaker, I don't see the relationship between an evaluation of the report and the job-finding abilities of students. MR. CLARK: Read the report. MR. KOZIAK: As I indicated in my response to the hon. Leader of the Opposition, the actual contents of the report are not now in my possession, although I've requested a copy. I've also indicated to the Leader of the Opposition that the reason the report was not in my possession was that it was not prepared for me. As I understand, it was prepared as an independent study by the university for the univer­ sity.

We are attempting to get our hands on that report. I doubt that it would be correct to make any comments on a report now, when the only information dealing with that report in the possession of the Department of Education is clippings or press releases. Until such time as that report has been studied in detail, no plan of action can be discussed at this level. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, one final supplementary question to both ministers. Can the ministers then advise the Assembly whether, as a result of this report, there will be any informal consultation with the faculty and the student association? MR.

SPEAKER: It would seem this question, by its very text, is somewhat previous, inasmuch as the question implies that the minister will have seen the report. Perhaps it could be put after he has seen the report. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. The question really didn't relate to the report. It related to the concern and the unfavorable publicity caused by the report. So again my question to both ministers is: in light of the unfavorable publicity, will there be informal consultation with the faculty and the student body as well? MR.

SPEAKER: I would regret to see it established as a precedent in this Assembly that we would group ministers as objects of questions. Perhaps the hon. member might make a selection. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, in that case I'd be glad to. I'd like to direct the question to the hon. Minister of Advanced Education. DR. HOHOL: Mr. Speaker, the normal course of events on all matters of consequence that relate to education and my portfolio would lead me to conclude that we will talk about this, as well as many other things.

I meet with the federation that represents the students of all the publicly administered institutions, the colleges, the universities. We speak of all long- term and short-term matters. Certainly this will be no exception. Finance Ministers' Conference MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct the second question to the Provincial Treasurer and ask if he's in a position to give us, within the confines of the question period, an assessment or the successful results of the treasurers' conference on fiscal ar­ rangements, in Ottawa last Thursday and Friday. MR. NOTLEY: Just the successful ones. MR.

CLARK: It may not take long. MR. LEITCH: Mr. Speaker, I'd have very little diffi­ culty, within the confines of question period, giving the successful conclusions reached at that confer­ ence. I should remind the members of the Assembly that this was really the first in what I expect will be a number of conferences, both at the finance ministers' and provincial treasurers' level, and undoubtedly at first ministers' level, with respect to the whole field of federal-provincial fiscal arrangements.

On the topics that come within the heading of federal-provincial fiscal arrangements, it was very much a preliminary meeting and will be followed by others. I may mention that the federal government's pro­ posed change in the method of calculating the revenue guarantee — that is, the funds that would be paid to the provinces on a guaranteed basis as a result of their acceptance of the change in the tax system in 1972 — met with unanimous and forceful disagreement from all provinces, including Alberta. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister, on the specific question of medicare.

Is the minister in a position to indicate the position of the Government of Alberta on the proposition I understand was put forward by the federal Minister of Finance, that in fact the federal government would get out of 50-50 cost sharing in medicare, and a larger portion of that financial responsibility would rest on the provinces? MR. LEITCH: Mr. Speaker, that falls within the general heading of shared-cost programs.

While the shared-cost programs were discussed at that meeting, in a sense it was really premature to discuss them there, because they're a subject which I expect will be discussed at a later date by first ministers. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary question to the Treasurer or perhaps to the Minister of Federal and Intergovernmental Affairs. At the conference, when the federal government made the proposal to change the basic guidelines for medicare, did the province of Alberta express deep regret at the federal government trying to opt out of its agreement of several years back? MR. LEITCH: Mr.

Speaker, the Leader of the Opposi­ tion is laboring under a misapprehension. That was not raised or proposed by the federal government at this conference. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the hon. Premier. Has the government of Alberta made any formal representation to the federal government with respect to the new proposed changes in cost sharing on medicare between the federal government and the provinces?

550 ALBERTA HANSARD April 5, 1976 MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Speaker, I would refer the question to the Minister of Federal and Intergovern­ mental Affairs. MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, over the course of a number of months, representations have been made both at the ministerial and the officials' level with regard to concerns we've had over shared-cost pro­ grams generally, many of which have been reiterated over the past four or five years. In particular those parts of shared-cost programs which restrict the province's ability to set its own priorities have been referred to the federal government, officials, and ministers.

We have also been monitoring very closely the suggested changes recently put forward with regard to cost sharing in respect of moneys particular­ ly. I presume this will be the subject of a number of further discussions, submissions, and representations by Alberta at a number of levels for at least the next four months. MR. NOTLEY: A supplementary question to the hon. minister. Will there be any specific representation made to the federal government proposing changes or suggesting that we retain the present funding formula for medicare and hospitalization in the country? MR. HYNDMAN: Mr.

Speaker, a number of changes have been proposed and further changes will be proposed. At this time, though, I think it would be premature to make information available on a piece­ meal basis as to what Alberta's position is. However, in due course, before too many weeks, I would think that the position of Alberta with regard to shared-cost programs generally will become apparent. MR. SPEAKER: Might this be the final supplementary on this topic. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, one final supplementary to the hon. minister.

Is it not the intention of the government of Alberta to protest the proposed changes announced by Mr. Lalonde? MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, I think we'd have to say, not necessarily. This government has been cognizant of the need to exercise a degree of restraint with regard to the rate of escalation of government expenditures not only in the province of Alberta but across Canada. So I think the answer to that question would be: we would not necessarily be taking the position suggested by the hon. member. Legislative Assembly Easter Break MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the hon.

Minister of Federal and Intergovernmental Af­ fairs. Will there be an Easter break? If so, have the dates been finalized? MR. HYNDMAN: Yes, Mr. Speaker. The tentative proposal at this time relates to the procedure which I think was used on one previous occasion. Two days prior to Good Friday, that would be Wednesday, April 14 at 5:30, the House would rise. It would begin its deliberations the following week on Wednesday, April 21 at 2:30 p.m.

This would mean that the Assembly would not be sitting the day prior to Good Friday and the day after Easter Monday, in order to give members an opportunity to check opinions in their ridings, and to do other work in the ridings they would feel necessary. Gun Control MR. HANSEN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to address a question on gun permits to the Solicitor General. Has the provincial government made any stricter laws for those who carry handguns from one club to the other? MR. FARRAN: Mr. Speaker, in regard to restricted weapons, the law which covers handguns is the Criminal Code, which is a federal law.

Like other parts of the Criminal Code, it is administered by the provincial authorities; in the case of handguns, by provincially appointed local registrars. So far as members of bona fide pistol clubs are concerned, they can obtain registration of their weapon and a permit to convey, on a blanket basis, between approved pistol clubs and approved ranges within the province. If they feel aggrieved by the decision of a local registrar, they can appeal to a provincial judge within 30 days.

The only requirement is that they be bona fide members of a pistol club, which means they're active and not merely social members or people who might have purchased something that purports to be a membership card in a pistol club at the time they bought their weapon from a gun dealer. MR. HANSEN: Has the minister's office made any complaints to the federal government on its proposed gun legislation? MR. FARRAN: Yes, Mr. Speaker. As I mentioned in the House the other day, the Alberta government expressed to the Minister of Justice, the Hon.

Ron Basford, the view that the proposal to license the owners of shotguns and rifles is a costly bureaucratic exercise of limited public benefit. DR. BUCK: A supplementary to the hon. minister, on a point of clarification. Did the hon. minister say that the gun clubs could get a permit from the local registrar? Does that mean the local RCMP detach­ ment, or does it mean here in Edmonton? MR. FARRAN: Mr. Speaker, in the case of big cities like Calgary and Edmonton, or where a municipal police force exists, the registrar is normally a member of the municipal police force.

In rural areas where the RCMP functions under the provincial contract, the commander of a detachment can take the application for a permit, which is forwarded to the registrar in K Division headquarters. This is necessary for checking records to make certain the applicant hasn't got a criminal record. Private Adoptions DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to address my question to the hon. Minister of Social Services and Community Health. I'd like to know if the hon. minister or members of her department are looking at

April 5, 1976 ALBERTA HANSARD 551 conducting studies into private adoption practices in the province. MISS HUNLEY: Yes, Mr. Speaker. We are doing a kind of cursory examination as a result of some concern expressed about private adoptions throughout Canada. Alberta is in a little different situation than most provinces because of the involvement of the depart­ ment in any private adoption, or subsequent to any private adoption taking place. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary to the minister.

Have any complaints been brought to the hon. minister that there may be some irregularities, in that babies are being bought? Have there been any notices brought to her attention? MISS HUNLEY: No, there have not, Mr. Speaker. There was some discussion along that line at a recent federal-provincial conference; not so much that babies were being bought, rather that mothers were encouraged to go to the United States particularly, to receive hospitalization and perhaps a lump-sum payment. But to my knowledge, this has never occurred with Alberta citizens. Gaming Regulations MR. LITTLE: Mr.

Speaker, may I address this question to the hon. Attorney General? Is the Attorney General in a position to advise this Assembly whether his department is experiencing a substantial increase in the number of applications to conduct casinos in this province? MR. FOSTER: Mr. Speaker, when I announced, essentially, a freeze on the level of gaming and lottery activity in the province last fall, I anticipated there would be a levelling [off] of the number of applicants.

I indicated then that the law enforcement agencies of the province — indeed, of the department itself — are not adequate to cope with the existing level of, in this case, casino activity. I have been somewhat surprised by the very substantial increase in the number of applications, particularly for casinos, in Alberta, and share a very considerable growing concern about interests outside Alberta, principally from the United States, promoting a very expanded casino initiative in the province. I think, Mr.

Speaker, in the next few months it will be important for members of my department and me to assess carefully these applications and come out with firm guidelines as to the level of casino activity we're prepared to accept in the foreseeable future. MR. LITTLE: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Is the Attorney General indicating that many of these are being operated by professionals from outside the province and outside the country, rather than by the sponsors of the casinos? MR. FOSTER: Mr.

Speaker, essentially applications are coming from very worth-while charitable and religious organizations whose objectives are for social purposes, all of which are laudable. Unfortunately, I have little confidence that the organizations them­ selves can in fact control their cash and be account­ able for the resources of the patrons; for example, limits to table stakes that change in the course of proceedings. I've discovered that the incidence of irregularity in the larger casinos is high.

In fact, if I could, I'd issue a warning to many groups in the province which are currently being approached by outside interests to sponsor casinos. I have no hesitation in saying that there are underworld connections, in the province and outside the province, who are actively promoting in this area. We'll have to take a serious position with respect to the limits on the regions in which we'll allow casinos to operate, the numbers within any specific region, the size of table limits, reporting mechanisms, licens­ ing procedures, and I could go on and on. I point out, Mr.

Speaker, I have no quarrel at all with the social objectives of many of the organiza­ tions. Unfortunately, in some cases these organiza­ tions are being set up by private interests to take advantage of the very considerable cash flow that a casino will realize. MR. LITTLE: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Is the Attorney General indicating that steps are being taken to monitor or control the operation by organiza­ tions from outside the province? MR. FOSTER: Mr.

Speaker, I indicated some months ago that neither the police forces of the province nor my department had the capacity to regulate and control the level of casino activity currently being experienced in the province. Now, the police forces of the province are increasing their capacity to regulate in this area. I have recently retained the services of a top gaming expert, a person formerly in the RCMP and who was one of the experts in Canada, to act as an adviser to me in this area.

He will be advising and assisting in establishing regulations, procedures, and guidelines, in addition to an expanded investigative capacity, which we hope will enable us to get a handle on the situation and to adequately advise and assist organizations which are interested in getting involved in casino activity. I think it's fair to say it will involve a higher degree of background investigation by law enforcement agencies with respect to the operators of these casinos. MR. NOTLEY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

Will this investigation be an automatic procedure, or will it only take place if a church group or a charitable group requests it? MR. FOSTER: Mr. Speaker, the problem as I see it does not rest with the small casinos — the half dozen tables. Those do not attract underworld interests. In fact, I think it would be highly desirable to limit the size of casinos and various other kinds of gambling activities. If you limit the size to small community- based operations, you don't attract the underworld interests. It is simply not profitable for them to get involved in that kind of operation.

So with respect to the modest or very small operations, I don't see the need for a substantial investigative capacity. However, when you are faced with 40- and 50- table operations, such as are proposed to function during Klondike Days and exhibition periods, you then

552 ALBERTA HANSARD April 5, 1976 have to be extremely careful as to the number and expertise of your operators, cashiers, handlers, and those who provide the equipment. I simply say that I know much more about many of the personalities involved than I'm at liberty to disclose publicly, or even in this House. I'm also acknowledging that we need to know much more about the background of certain promoters who are actively engaged in this field.

I've already indicated that some interests from outside Canada are currently coming into Alberta on the assumption that they are looking forward to a bonanza for casino activity in Alberta. I am simply giving notice today, as I gave notice some months ago, that there will be no bonanza in Alberta. There will be no substantial loosening up of the level of casino activity. If anything, I suggest to you that we may be reducing both the number and the size of casino activities in this province. Mr.

Speaker, I expect that following a discussion with my colleagues, I'll have something more to say on this in the near future. MR. CLARK: I wonder if I might ask one further supplementary question of the hon. Attorney General. Really, the question is twofold. First of all, is the Attorney General in a position to indicate to us when these guidelines which he talked about will be finalized? Secondly, is the Attorney General going at this in co-operation with the metropolitan police forces in Edmonton and Calgary, and the RCMP? Is it a joint venture on a province-wide basis? MR.

FOSTER: The second question first, Mr. Speaker. Yes, obviously we must work with the law enforcement agencies. I should indicate that at the present time our policy is to limit casinos, for example, to one casino for a region. Unfortunately, there are those who anticipate that we may be moved off that policy, that we may permit two, three, or more casinos in a region. If we are consistent in our policy, Mr. Speaker, it means that we will be approving perhaps one major casino during the run of Klondike Days or the Calgary Exhibition & Stampede.

If that is the case, we would probably limit that casino to operations on the grounds. We would likely not allow major casinos to operate in a half dozen hotels in the cities of Edmonton and Calgary during Klondike Days or the Calgary Exhibition. I am simply saying to you now that we have tremendous numbers of applications for casino activities in both Edmonton and Calgary, prin­ cipally focused on that interval of time. All the groups which are anxious to obtain these casino licences are very worth-while charitable and religious organizations, with highly desirable social goals and objectives.

No one would doubt that. I simply want to make it clear to this House and to the public of Alberta that my concern in this issue is to protect the patrons who come in to gamble and, moreover, to worry about the law enforcement impli­ cations. My concern is not the worthiness or other­ wise of the social objectives of the groups. MR. KUSHNER: A supplementary question to the minister. I wonder if the minister is in a position to inform this House how long casinos have been operating in Alberta. Rather than going on specula­ tion, have we had any bad experience to this point? MR. FOSTER: Mr.

Speaker, I don't know how long casinos have been operating in Alberta. Perhaps I should. I can't bring that figure to mind. The short answer to the [second] part of your question is, yes. We've had some very bad experiences. Land Ownership MR. MANDEVILLE: Mr. Speaker, my question is also to the hon. Attorney General. Will data collected under the authority of The Land Titles Act, 1974, concerning citizenship of companies and persons purchasing Alberta land, be made available to members of the Legislature? MR. FOSTER: Mr.

Speaker, I have been receiving information from the Land Titles system, pursuant to the legislative changes made in this House some time ago. I haven't received all the most current informa­ tion. But I have requests from some members of the opposition for this information. I anticipate making it available to them, yes. MR. CLARK: When? MR. MANDEVILLE: A supplementary question. Couldn't he give us a tentative date when the information would be made available? MR. FOSTER: I anticipate it will be made available very shortly, Mr. Speaker. Hospital Staff Relations MR. NOTLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to direct this question to the hon. Minister of Hospitals and Medical Care. Is the minister in a position to advise the House whether he's received any reports of hospital workers in Lethbridge, Wetaskiwin, and Grande Prairie being requested to work one day a month without pay, in order to avoid staff layoffs? MR. MINIELY: Mr. Speaker, I haven't heard the specific reports referred to by the hon.

Member for Spirit River-Fairview, but as I've indicated to the House, I do know that the individual decisions relative to how the hospitals will reorganize in a manner in which they can meet the budgetary guidelines that have been granted to them are of course decisions of individual hospital boards.

I'm not surprised if indi­ vidual hospital boards are in fact asking members of their staff in certain cases to work longer hours and move towards some additional efficiency, because after all, in the longer term, not just in Alberta but throughout Canada, I'm sure that one of the things we're looking at in controlling costs is somewhat more efficiency in job functions and tasks. Neverthe­ less, that's a decision of the individual board that the hon. member is referring to, if in fact that's the case. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the hon. Minister of Labour.

In light of the recent Fuller decision by the Board of Industrial Relations, will any directive go to employers in the

April 5, 1976 ALBERTA HANSARD 553 province, but in particular the hospital boards, pointing out that it really isn't proper to ask employees to go without a day's pay? MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member has referred to a specific decision of the board. From time to time I read sample decisions of the board in order to be familiar with the types of cases that are coming before it. I don't recall the one he's referred to. I'd be interested in looking at it before trying to make any response. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary question to the hon. Minister of Hospitals and Medical Care.

Has the government received any reports or complaints that some hospital workers are being threatened with layoffs for a few weeks during the summer so the hospitals can stay within the budgetary guidelines? MR. MINIELY: Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member has any specific that he would like to bring to my attention — I can say that no specific complaint in writing of any factual situation such as the hon. member suggests has come to my attention. I think he would understand that while adjustments are being made by hospitals, many rumors and discus­ sions go on internally in a hospital.

In meetings with the hospital boards, I have certainly indicated to them, and they know, that they should communicate with their staff as accurately as possible, particularly in large hospitals where the communication and the way an employee might receive something may not be related to the factual situation at all. Mr.

Speaker, in this context I'd like to point out to the hon. member that certainly nothing the provincial government is asking of individual hospital boards implies in any way that the decisions they might make relative to the reorganization would violate any regulation of the Board of Industrial Relations. That's a question which, if a hospital board is not aware of it, they certainly should be meeting the law and regulations of the Board of Industrial Relations in these matters. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary question.

Has the department at any time sent a directive to hospital boards in the province, making it clear that all employee-employer relations must be consistent with the regulations set down by the Board of Industrial Relations? MR. MINIELY: Mr. Speaker, I would assume that hospital boards in Alberta which are autonomous bodies — as the provincial government with our staff — are aware of that.

If there's any specific instance which the hon. member would bring to my attention where a board, in fact, is not applying whatever they are doing in this adjustment period to the existing law or regulations of the province, then I would like that specifically brought to my attention or to that of the Minister of Labour. Zone Policing MR. KUSHNER: Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct my question to the Solicitor General. It's a question following up Friday's question period.

Can the Solicitor General inform this House if zone policing is one of the approved programs that will be acceptable for extra law enforcement grants? I'm particularly referring to the city of Calgary. MR. FARRAN: Mr. Speaker, as I intended to explain when my estimates came up, the basic rule for the extra law enforcement grants is that, first of all, they must reach the basic requirement of an adequate police force, which was the policeman-to-population ratio used for calculating the grants last year. That was the first year of the starting of the basic law enforcement grant.

In the case of Calgary, which the hon. member mentions, it is one policeman to 550 people. Provided that a municipality reaches that basic requirement, the extra grants will be paid for approved police projects to enhance law enforcement or crime prevention, in accordance with the priorities allotted by the police commission and the chief of police. Broadly speaking, so long as it's a meretricious police program and is within the police department, they should encounter no problems.

However, it's certain that the estimates of my department were exempted from the 11 per cent budget restraint for good reason as a conscious policy decision by the government. Those grants are not meant to be diverted into other social service areas. So, if they believe that an extension of zone policing is high on their priorities for the use of these extra law enforcement grants, they would be able to use them for that purpose. Hospital Finances MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Hospitals and Medical Care.

Would the minister confirm that the Calgary General Hospital will be forced to reduce its bed capacity by 150 because of revenue needs? MR. MINIELY: Mr. Speaker, I cannot speak for the actual number the hon. member indicates. However, as I've indicated in the House, I do know that most hospitals, particularly in our larger metropolitan centres where our greatest active treatment bed capacity is, and has been historically, have indicated to me that they will be reducing the number of their active treatment beds during this particular period of expenditure restraint.

I did meet with the Calgary General when I met with all Calgary boards. They did indicate to me that, based on the initial budget granted to them, they felt they would have to make cutbacks. At that time, they did not delineate actual numbers. The other factor is that the Calgary General also did appeal their budget. The final disposition of that appeal is not yet settled. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary to the minister. Would the minister indicate whether the Calgary General Hospital received the 11 per cent increase in revenue, rather than the 8 per cent revenue the board has indicated? MR.

MINIELY: Well, Mr. Speaker, even though I'm a chartered accountant myself, I would not particularly

554 ALBERTA HANSARD April 5, 1976 want to get into a mathematical debate with an individual hospital, except to say that it is not unusual for the actual calculation of the figures by the individ­ ual hospital to be at variance with the calculation of my officials in the Hospital Services Commission throughout the entire hospital system in Alberta this year. Frequently, the difference is the level of approved spending for 1975 that the percentage is applied upon. I would make the point that that is not unusual.

For instance, if the hospital in fact spent more money in 1975 than their approved level of expenditure, certainly they have placed themselves in an additional difficulty. The percentage at which they are applying the increase is different from the base upon which we are applying the increase. MR. SPEAKER: Might this be the final supplementary on a topic which is perhaps more suited for committee study of the estimates. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, is it the intent of the minister or the government to ensure that every hospital has the 11 per cent increase in total? MR. NOTLEY: Some chance! MR. MINIELY: Mr.

Speaker, I think I've indicated in reply to earlier questions that there are two variances to that fact. One is that it's based on the 1975 approved level of expenditure. Secondly, each hospi­ tal was generally granted an 8 per cent inflation factor. Another factor that was applied on an individ­ ual basis was the annualization of programs which were instituted in a hospital at midyear, or during the term of the year. Basically, the 11 per cent was a provincial overall budget.

As much as possible within that overall policy, we've tried to apply it equitably to each individual hospital situation, realizing that is difficult in certain cases during this period. Nevertheless, we must accomplish the overall objective of dampening the general cost escalation in the hospital system. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I might ask one further question of the minister.

Is it the intention of the minister, once this program is fully implemented, and as a result of the guidelines being applied the way they are across the province, to have 300 fewer active treatment beds in operation in Alberta than there are now? MR. SPEAKER: In fairness to other hon. members, I think when there's an indication of a final supple­ mentary, we should perhaps stay with that. Again, I would say I think this is a topic which could very appropriately be brought up in committee study of the estimates. Hospital Visitors Committee MR. BATIUK: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct my questions to the hon.

Minister of Hospitals and Medical Care. With regard to the annual report of the Alberta Hospital Visitors Committee that you tabled, on page 3 there is a statement that the members visited "many patients and found them, with rare exceptions, to be well satisfied Could the minister advise whether any recommen­ dations have been made in regard to concerns with these rare exceptions? Has anything been done to resolve the concerns? MR. MINIELY: Mr.

Speaker, I believe the hon. member, who has sat on the Hospital Visitors Committee, is aware that the committee is structured legislatively as an advisory committee formerly to the Minister of Health and Social Development and, under reorganization, to the Minister of Hospitals and Medical Care and the Alberta Hospital Services Commission. Individual recommendations by the committee are brought to my attention. We try to act on them as quickly as possible.

As the hon. member knows, sometimes the Hospital Visitors Committee is utilized as a positive force in terms of difficulties that are really on a local or community level, rather than the provincial level. Those frequently do involve persona­ lity difficulties within a hospital or in fact within a community. As such they are termed advisory to me, and we hope to take action to help the situation. MR. BATIUK: Even though there may be a certain amount of confidentiality that must be practised, is the minister in a position to pinpoint or signify the areas of concern, or maybe even table them? MR.

SPEAKER: I suggest that the hon. member might put that question on the Order Paper, since it goes into specifics. MR. BATIUK: Mr. Speaker, another supplementary. Could the minister advise whether he is satisfied with the performance of this Hospital Visitors Committee? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER: Perhaps the hon. member could get that information under other circumstances. Consumer Price Index MR. COOKSON: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to ask a question of the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs.

In view of the continuing concerns of employees with regard to the freeze on escalating salaries, I wonder if the minister could advise the Assembly whether his department has been monitor­ ing the consumer index rate. If so, could he explain to the Assembly whether the controls we have now initiated in Canada and in this province are having a positive effect on consumer costs? MR. HARLE: Mr. Speaker, that's a pretty tall order. The government and my department obviously receive material from Statistics Canada, but that material comes out somewhat after the event.

It would, I think, be very difficult at this state to indicate completely an answer to the hon. member. Preaudit MR. LEITCH: Mr. Speaker, a week or so ago the Leader of the Opposition asked me whether I could confirm to the Assembly that the preaudit process was working effectively in all government

April 5, 1976 ALBERTA HANSARD 555 departments. Mr. Speaker, I believe the question was directed to the audit referred to in

Section 59(1) of The Financial Administration Act, whereby each department is to audit the details of accounts submitted and is repons- ible for the correctness of the examination. That is done by departmental personnel, but the Auditor's office has been examining the procedure for this audit and recommending changes to departments where the Auditor's office thought they would lead to improvements. This is a continuing process, Mr. Speaker. But the Auditor advised me recently that he is not now aware of any deficiencies in the auditing practices being performed by the departments. That does not mean to say, Mr.

Speaker, that either the Auditor or the Treasurer's Department are not constantly actively pursuing ways of improving the preaudit system, as we are always considering changes which might strengthen the procedures. ORDERS OF THE DAY [Mr. Speaker left the Chair] head: GOVERNMENT MOTIONS (Committee of Supply) [Dr. McCrimmon in the Chair] MR. CHAIRMAN: The Committee of Supply will now come to order. MR. CLARK: Mr.

Chairman, before we become involved once again in the estimates of the Depart­ ment of Agriculture, perhaps for the last day, I wonder if I might ask the Provincial Treasurer if he has had an opportunity to discuss with his colleague, the Acting Provincial Treasurer, the request for information we made last Wednesday. I think it was last Friday that the Acting Provincial Treasurer indi­ cated he had checked out some conflicting information in the department, and that in fact he would discuss the matter with you upon your return.

It really revolves around the object of expenditure information we have been getting and the comparable forecast for '75-76, the comparable esti­ mates for '75-76, and the comparable actual for '74-75. MR. LEITCH: Mr. Chairman, I take it the Leader of the Opposition is referring to his letter dated March 31, 1976, to my colleague, the Minister of Hospitals and Medical Care. At the moment, Mr.

Chairman, I can only respond to that by saying that while it is not a physical impossibility to supply the information requested in that letter — and I've reviewed the request with the people in the department — it would certainly involve 30 or 40 people and a matter of some months to turn out all the information requested. It may be that I can pursue with the Leader of the Opposition a form [of] additional information that will meet his requirements. Mr.

Chairman, I should simply point out that really three things here have led to some difficulty [for] members making a comparison: first, the reorganiza­ tion that occurred following the election; secondly, a change in the auditing office as to coding, which took place not as part of the approach in program budget­ ing, but the two have come together; and thirdly, of course, program budgeting. Mr. Chairman, I think it's worth while my making this point too, because I'm not sure all the members of the House understand it.

For example, if we go to the estimates book we were using last year or in preceding years, you might find in one of the details such things as travelling expenses. I'm just picking an example, Mr. Chairman. But you couldn't go through this book and pick out all the travelling expenses, because travelling expenses would not be treated separately in every vote. They may not be included at all, or shown rather as a separate item. But [they] would be included under the heading: Other Expenses. MR. CLARK: If they were small. MR.

LEITCH: If they were small, [it would] depend on the criteria used at the time the estimates book was being prepared whether they had to be included as a major item in the line-by-line comparisons. For example, when you get a change in departments or a change in the format, we would have to go back to give the actual figures for 1974-75 on that level of detail. On the budgetary code detail level, we'd have to go back and sort through the cheques, payments, and what have you and try to allocate them. We've done that on a program basis.

While it's physically possible to go to the detail the hon. leader has asked for here, it would take an astonishing number of man-hours. In addition to that, Mr. Chairman, when we got finished with it, I'm not sure it would have the element of accuracy we normally like to have, because a number of those things are going to be judgment calls. As I say, I'm satisfied we can't do what the leader has requested in this letter, from a practical point of view.

But it may be that I could discuss the matter and find out whether there isn't a level of information we could provide in a reasonable period of time that would meet his requirements. For example, we'd go through by program and pick up totals. But to break it down into elements is literally impractical, impossible. MR. CLARK: Mr. Chairman, might I say to the Provincial Treasurer that I'll take advantage of his offer to discuss the matter with him this afternoon. Our prime purpose in wanting the information is some meaningful comparisons.

If we can do that on a program basis, that at least would be a step in the right direction. In the course of the afternoon, or perhaps when we adjourn at 5:30, I'll meet with the Treasurer, if that's agreeable, and pursue the matter there. Department of Agriculture Agreed to: Ref. No. 4.2 $13,872,560

556 ALBERTA HANSARD April 5, 1976 Ref. No. 4.3 MR. PURDY: Mr. Chairman, I have one question. Is this the vote market gardens fall under? MR. MOORE: No, I don't believe it is, Mr. Chairman. This vote covers the cost of operation of all the regional offices of the department in Lethbridge, Calgary, Red Deer, Vermilion, Barrhead, and Fairview. That's all the costs of the regional offices. MR. PURDY: Have we got a particular

section there — we may have gone past it, Mr. Chairman — in regard to market gardens? MR. MOORE: Yes, Mr. Chairman. That would be under the horticultural

section of the department's budget. I believe that it would be under the rural development assistance vote, Vote No. 4. MR. R. SPEAKER: What steps has the minister taken to revise the role of the district agriculturist and the home economist? About a year ago, the DA was doing more work with regard to agricultural loans; they do a bit of work in the appeal procedure. But since then we've had a fleet of regional agricultural development people placed about the province to pick up applications and get them to Camrose quickly. So really the DA is sort of there, but he isn't there in a role.

I find a number of the functions they serve overlap with the private sector, particularly in the area of consulting in fertilizer, weed control, irrigation, things like this. A number of private companies have developed good services. In the area of home services on the farm — water, sewer, this type of thing — there are private companies that can give very good advice. Continuously, as I watch the district agriculturist and home economist, I note their role eroding. Observing the home economist and DA in my own area, I would have to say they do a very excellent job of attempting to define their role.

They're doing some good community development work that I'm impressed with, but I note a changing role in the different communities. They're even working closer into recreation areas for rural communities. But I see a changing role. I don't have any good comparison between my area and others, but I was just wondering what examination of this program the minister is doing at present. Is he really examining it in relation to the private sector and in relation to the new government programs, implemented in the last three or four years, that have eroded it?

One of the worst ones, and certainly we were responsible for that, was the 4-H program a number of years ago. We pulled that out from the DAs and removed them to quite an extent from the home environment. I keep seeing this happening. I think maybe we should be asking questions, and I'm asking the minister if he's asked questions about it. MR. MOORE: Mr. Chairman, first of all, I don't believe in a general sort of way that there has been any erosion at all of the duties and responsibilities of the district agriculturists and the district home economists.

You may recall that some months ago we moved to provide, throughout the province, a loans officer attached to the Agricultural Development Corporation in about every second dis­ trict agriculturist area. That was not in any way to erode the responsibilities or work of the district agriculturist, but rather to relieve them of some of the extensive loan application work they were doing. The DAs are still involved in helping potential applicants for loans to establish a farm plan and an operational plan over a period of years.

Indeed, the function of the district agriculturist and the district home economist throughout the province has been and continues to be one of extension services, really a service of providing education to rural people in a variety of ways. It's my understanding, from talking to DAs and district home economists throughout Alberta, that generally they have a broader role to fill today than they've ever had, in terms of the number of new things required by the farming community, new technology and that type of thing. Some members, Mr.

Chairman, could quite easily be confused between the services offered by the district agriculturist and the district home economist and those provided by the rural development specia­ lists, as they're referred to, who are attached to such things as the small farm development program. Those persons are in the employ of the Alberta Department of Agriculture but are paid for largely by Agriculture Canada as the result of our ARDA agreement on the small farms development program, which does expire at the end of the fiscal year we're in now; in other words, April 1, 1977.

Under the terms of the agreement, we're required at that time to bring these people into the Department of Agriculture to ensure that their jobs are maintained, if in fact that ARDA agreement is not continued beyond April 1, 1977. I'm not sure at this point whether it will be or not, or whether it might take some other form. There again, a variety of different work is being done by those people. In some areas they are closely connected with the kind of thing the hon. member mentioned, recreation and family life.

That, however, is not a role we generally see our DAs or district home economists playing any differently than they have in past years. I'd be pleased to know if there are, in fact, district home economist or DA offices in the province where members feel the role they are serving is not as useful as it might be, and what direction it might take. But generally I've been pretty satisfied with the requirement for them to be there and the kind of information and educational function they serve in providing service to our farmers. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr.

Chairman, I think the basis of my question was the relationship of their role to the private sector. In the last four or five or 10 years, the use of fertilizer has increased to quite an extent in our area. For example, the Wheat Pool, the oil companies, and fertilizer companies have become a lot more sophisticated in being able to give advice to the farmers. In the last four or five years we've enlarged the soil sample research centre, and a lot more information is going out to the farmers. There has been good development in that area. I know the DAs give advice in that area, but the private sector is there.

In the whole area of home water, sewer, that type of thing, there are private companies that have people on staff to give advice.

April 5, 1976 ALBERTA HANSARD 557 I know from my own personal experience, the DA at one time — and they were necessary — gave a lot of good information. But there is the private sector. The area of weed control, wild oat control — certainly the Department of Agriculture put on a thrust here a year or two ago, which was a good one. A lot of good information went out to a number of the farmers. I guess we need the DA there to follow up, but there are private companies that have specialists who can give good advice with regard to weed control and wild oat control. Those are three examples I give you.

Maybe there are others if I investigate it further. But do you examine their role relative to services from the private sector? Maybe in some centres this isn't available, I don't know. But just offhand, I would say normally they are. MR. MOORE: Mr. Chairman, I suppose it is true that in some sections of the province, although not all, fertilizer companies, chemical companies, and so on are providing some pretty valuable advice. That, in fact, makes it all the more important for our district agricultural staff to know all there is to know about the variety of chemicals, fertilizers, and so on.

By way of example, I might suggest: how would one expect a farmer to get impartial, accurate advice with respect to which one of four different kinds of wild oat chemical to use under a given situation? I might use the example of Avadex, Carbyne, and Treflan, manufactured by three different manufac­ turers. I don't suppose one could expect manufacturer A, if a farmer went to him requesting advice, to recommend a product made by manufac­ turer B. That is the kind of thing we expect our staff to do: to be able to provide advice about the variety of chemicals available, say, in weed control.

Certainly we expect them, in a broad sense, to be better equipped to do that than chemical companies in fact would be. In terms of our soil and feed testing laboratory, we've not really seen that much evidence that the facilities here in Edmonton, for example, that are connected with soil and feed testing could be scaled down yet. Indeed, the demand for services is such that, if anything, they would have to be increased, although we're not doing that. We welcome the private sector moving in to fill any void we're not presently able to handle in that facility.

But it's simply not possible, in my opinion, to expect that to happen very quickly. If, as I said earlier, there are some areas in the province where the feeling is that the staff of the department are not utilizing their time to the best advantage because the private sector is able to provide all the services they do, we'd certainly be willing to consider some movement of people to accommodate that. A number of areas are very anxious to receive the kind of information and so on that both DAs and district home economists are able to provide.

I think, generally, most of the province just doesn't have the access to the kind of information you're talking about from the private sector in total, although there certainly is evidence of it to some extent in every area. MR. R. SPEAKER: Just to clarify my remarks to the minister, with regard to soil sampling, I wasn't making any request for the private sector to get into that area. If they want to, that's fine. I was commending the service. I'm attempting to urge the minister to re-examine the program in light of possible conflicts between the private sector and the role of the DA.

I'm not picking out the DA and home economist from my area. I'm talking about right across the province. As a sup­ posedly free-enterprise government — and I'm sure your convention whipped that up, and everybody was a free-enterpriser last weekend — all I'm asking is, let's examine the role you play as a government, philosophically, relative to your actions. I want to do this rationally. All I'm saying, Mr. Minister, is that these facilities I've outlined may be provided in the respective communities. There may be other responsibilities the district agriculturist can take on, and we don't compete.

You've raised one example with regard to wild oats. Out in the market place, once one of the farmers tries some particular wild oat control and finds it doesn't work, that's your best control. They're going to go to the other product. It isn't going to be the DA who makes that decision. It's going to be one farmer talking to another farmer out in the field. That's how you'll decide whether Treflan or Avadex or the other product is better. That's where it should happen, out there at that level.

I don't think the judgment of the DA on one private sector product over another is quite the role we expect him to play in our rural areas. I'd sure hate to put a DA in the position of saying, go down and buy from company X, because he's got the best product. Ignore company B. I don't think the government wants that sort of thing to happen either. All I'm asking the minister to do is sit down, talk to his staff, and say, now look, are we really overlapping services? Because we're talking about $5 million or $4.5 million just in costs of the offices. Maybe we can make better use of those people.

From what the minister has said so far, not to be overly critical, I don't feel the minister has really had an intensive review in this area with the staff. Maybe it's a little lower on the priority list. But I'd urge him to have a good look at it between now and the next estimates. MR. MOORE: Mr. Chairman, I've certainly had quite an intensive review of the services provided by district agriculturists and home economist offices. As a matter of fact, that's why several months ago I made the move to bring in loans officers in every second area.

I can assure the hon. member, in my view, in a general sort of way, all those offices, of which there are about 65 throughout the province, are required and are serving a function that cannot be obtained anywhere else. In fact, if I did leave some impression — I don't think I did — when I was talking about the role of the DA in advising farmers, I didn't say to advise to use product A, B, or C, but rather to inform the individual of the relative merits of using either one of those products under particular condi­ tions. That's quite different from advising the indi­ vidual that he should use this or that product.

Certainly, I've examined it. Of all the things in the Department of Agriculture, I think it made a better and more thorough examination of the functions of our staff who are really out there meeting the people. I would have to say that those people are the ones most responsible for conveying to the rural

558 ALBERTA HANSARD April 5, 1976 community and the farming public the kind of infor­ mation the staff and head office here in Edmonton develop, the kind of market production and other kinds of information farmers urgently require in an industry that's changing very rapidly and continually in terms of production and marketing. So we've examined it in a general way.

All I say is, if in fact there are some areas where we have offices too close together, or where indeed some private sector information is available that would lead one to believe the function of the DA should not be continued in that area, I'd like to look at them individually. But in general I don't think we're in a position where we'd want to scale down the kind of services provided by the field staff. MR. ZANDER: Mr. Chairman, I believe you're dealing now with farm services. I'm looking at the figure of $438,628 on page 11. Has this been increased? I'm wondering if this has been increased from previous years.

In my constituency, and I believe in most of the rural constituencies, we must realize that farming today is big business. I wonder if the minister can give me this information, because certainly today the business management of a farm is very important. As I look around in my constituency and talk to farmers in diversified farming operations, most of them have not got a sense of good bookkeeping, of business control. If you ask them whether they're making money on milk or on grain, most of the people can't tell you, because they have no information.

I know in past years we have had business courses conducted in the rural constituencies. I would hope the minister would recognize the urgency of the farmers' becoming more acquainted with the business management of their farms. It certainly is a tricky business at this time. Probably it will increase the knowledge of the farmers in what direction they should go and what part of their production they must drop because they're losing money on it. I would hope that vote would be at least double that, Mr. Minister, because it certainly is needful in the rural areas of our province. MR. MOORE: Mr.

Chairman, what vote is the hon. member referring to? MR. CHAIRMAN: Page 11 in which book? MR. ZANDER: In this one. MR. CHAIRMAN: What's the name of it? MR. ZANDER: The supplementary information. MR. MOORE: Mr. Chairman, with respect to business management, I can say that it's my view that in the complexities of farming today there are indeed a good number of people who have excellent bookkeeping ability and good business management ability. However, we recognize there are some who have not been able to avail themselves of some updating and training in this regard.

Certainly the establishment of the Agricultural Development Corporation and the kind of assistance provided to people who acquire loans or guarantees from that corporation — and that number is something in excess of 9,000 persons or farm families across Alberta today — has helped a great deal over the last three and a half, four years. Indeed, in the last three years in the farm training courses held in the wintertime that are from two to six weeks in duration, there has been a priority to provide additional farm business management courses as well.

In addition, to some extent we have improved the delivery of farm law through a farm law management specialist. To a large degree, that refers to assisting people in learning and being knowledgeable about changes that occur from time to time in income tax laws, particularly with respect to estate planning, the capital gains tax, and that kind of thing. So, in answer to the hon. member's question, Mr. Chairman, certainly there is and has been, for at least the past three years anyway, an emphasis on farm business management that perhaps was not there before.

As farming becomes more complex and tax laws change rather quickly, as in the last few years, certainly that has given rise to the fact that more emphasis has been placed in that area. MR. MANDEVILLE: Mr. Chairman, I've been surveying this area, and I've travelled through the northern part of the province. The biggest complaint I get is that lots of this information is available as far as the extension department is concerned, but it's not getting back to the producers themselves, especially the small producers.

Sometimes I would get involved with some of the larger producers, and they are using the extension department. But the smaller farmers almost unanimously are not taking advantage of our district agriculturalist, especially. A lot of times when I talked to people who were involved as counsellors and so on, they felt they were getting involved in too many programs. For example, they were taking tours, going to conferences, and not relating this information to the service boards or to the individual farmers.

If there was any way we could get this back, it would certainly be a help in getting more production from our district agriculturalist. I have also talked to district ags. Sometimes they're wondering just where they should go and how they should get involved in this type of thing. I have to say that at the hort. station in Brooks, they've changed their program, and they're working right out in the field. They'll go out to the farmers themselves and work with the sugar beet growers, the bean growers, and the potato growers.

Then they relate their information and experience with the experience the farmers have, and that's working very successfully. I would certainly like to see this happen as far as our district agriculturalist is concerned, not so much our home economists. I think they are more able to get out in the field. I would like to see a program set up so they're working with our small farmers and our small producers. Agreed to: Ref. No. 4.3 $5,295,815 Ref. No. 4.4 $2,444,190 Vote 4

April 5, 1976 ALBERTA HANSARD 559 DR. BUCK: Mr. Chairman, can I just ask a question of the minister. I missed it in this other section, but I'd just like to ask him now. That's to do with the proposed hog A.I. centre that was supposed to have been built. Can the minister indicate to us what stage that is at? Will it happen this year or in '77, '78, or '79? Can the minister indicate to us where that's at? MR. MOORE: Mr. Chairman, the estimated cost of the hog A.I. centre, which is designed to be built in the vicinity of the International Airport, is about $800,000 to $900,000.

A decision was made that it could not be funded this budget year as a priority under capital funding. It will be brought forward again in the next budget year. I cannot say at this time whether funding will be made available in 1977-78, but certainly the program has not been cancelled. It has merely been delayed for at least one year. I'm hopeful that we can find the resources to fund it in the next budget year. But I don't know yet. Agreed to: Vote 4 Total Program $22,416,760 Vote 5 MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the minister could give us some information on this.

I notice it's a federal government program. I take it the Alberta government is simply carrying it out for the federal [government], and I believe this is the second or third year. What is being done? Do we have a number of employees tied up in the program? Apparently not. What are we trying to accomplish in east Indonesia? MR. MOORE: Mr. Chairman, I would really like to provide the Assembly — and I hope to later this year — with a fairly complete report as to our involvement over the course of the last two years and the results of that. I'd have to say at the moment that I do not have a report from the project.

We're only a small part of the project in Indonesia being undertaken by the Government of Canada. I could say at this time that it really is a program undertaken by this country for the development of an agriculture-based industry in that country. It involves all kinds of things: like technical assistance with regard to soils, production, and fertilizer; mechanical engineering assistance — I guess you'd call it — in terms of the training of people in that country to operate farm machinery and to grow and harvest crops in a modern way, rather than the way in which they have in the past.

As in all programs of this nature, where to a large extent you're dealing with undeveloped countries and where education is not what it is in Canada, I think it's fair to say that, in terms of the amount of money spent, the progress often would not look very good to you and me. In fact, it isn't easy to show a great deal of progress over the course of one, two, or three years. I'll just close by saying that our involvement as a province, and the commitment we made to assist with people in this manner, is finished at the end of this fiscal year.

In other words, on April 1, 1977, under the terms of the original agreement, we will no longer be involved there. We presently have some seven people on that project in Indonesia. All of them were drawn from the staff of the department in Edmonton. Most of them will be back in Alberta by the end of this calendar year, December 1976. Although I think one or two positions are open, in general the people who went gave up their positions. But they were told by us, when they undertook this program, that they would be provided with equivalent jobs on their return to Canada.

So we will be expecting a number of them to return over a period from about October to the end of December. Beyond that, of course, I think it's outlined, and I outlined earlier, that the entire costs are funded by the Government of Canada. MR. NOTLEY: Just a couple of questions about this program. The minister indicated this was the last year of this program. Is it the intention of the government to participate in any further programs of a similar nature, either in Indonesia or other countries? While I'm on my feet, I realize this is 100 per cent refundable from the Government of Canada.

I presume this is a federal foreign aid program. Is it under the Colombo program, or is it under the Food and Agriculture Organization? On what basis is the program set up? Is it a bilateral agreement between Indonesia and Canada? I'm just wondering to what extent we're going to be making further contributions. I think we should, as a matter of fact. But I'm just interested in what the route is, in terms of future programs either in Indonesia, or other countries. MR. MOORE: Mr. Chairman, I really don't know.

I have not been involved personally in any discussions that would lead us into another program in Indonesia, or a program of similar magnitude in another country starting the end of this fiscal year, when our involve­ ment here expires. But I would say that certainly the province of Alberta, as a province in Canada, will continue, insofar as the Department of Agriculture is concerned, playing our role in assisting to develop the agricultural industry in underdeveloped nations. I'm aware of nothing on the drawing board at the moment that would have us sending people to coun­ tries other than Indonesia.

But we recognize the responsibility we have as a province to be involved in those types of things. I think we will continue to recognize that over the years. MR. NOTLEY: Just to follow that up, Mr. Chairman, I would be interested in the evaluation the minister is going to table on just how successful the program has been. I'm certainly no expert in this area, but it seems to me that one of the things that would be interesting to evaluate is the extent to which we can provide technical assistance to areas of the world where you have the most primitive farming conditions.

How can you take where they are today and suddenly bring in the most modern technology? How workable is that? Obviously, I agree that over the long haul, if we're going to deal with the world's food problem, we have to improve the capacity of these countries to use their own agricultural land more efficiently. That's going to take improved technology. However, my interest is, just how quickly one can

560 ALBERTA HANSARD April 5, 1976 move. I'm rather doubtful you can get to heaven in a single bound. So I'm looking forward to the evalua­ tion, because I somehow suspect that modern tractors and what have you may be a little premature, in certain parts of the world anyway. MR. MOORE: Mr. Chairman, I'll undertake to get an evaluation of the program as soon as I can. I think it would probably be federal in nature, although I know some reports and an evaluation of it are being done by the staff of Alberta Agriculture involved in a project there.

It would probably be more appropriate to try to provide one on the overall project as it was designed by the Government of Canada. I'll try to do that as soon as I can get a report of that nature. MR. CLARK: Mr. Chairman, as we're concluding the last vote — we're concluding Vote 5, are we? MR. CHAIRMAN: We're on Vote 5. MR. CLARK: Then I assume it's appropriate to make some general remarks with regard to the department, this being the last vote, because we don't do a total after the last vote, do we? MR. CHAIRMAN: That's right. MR. CLARK: I take it we can establish the procedure — whatever you wish, Mr.

Chairman, whether we do it before Vote 5 or right after Vote 5, I'm easy — to wrap up the department. MR. CHAIRMAN: With permission of the committee, if we complete Vote 5, we can have an overall wrap-up before we go on to the next one. Then we complete each portion and we can go back over the whole thing. Any remarks to be made can be made at that time, before we go on to the next department. Agreed to: Vote 5 Total Program $1,245,148 MR. CLARK: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if I might pose a couple of questions to the minister. One deals with the report of the Farmers' Advocate.

Is it the intention of the minister to table the report in the Assembly? I know it has been done during the last number of years. Is it the minister's intention to table that particular report? Unfortunately, I had to be out. Was the matter of a district home economist at Slave Lake raised by one of my colleagues? Then I'd like to make this point, Mr. Chairman. In the course of some discussions we had with people in the Slave Lake area, they had the very fine services of a home economist for some time, apparently when the federal DREE program was operational in that area.

Once the program was finished, the services of the home economist were apparently withdrawn because they wouldn't be picked up by the federal government. I can appreciate, from a sheer Department of Agriculture point of view, it's likely valid that a district home economist perhaps wouldn't have as high a priority in Slave Lake as in some other areas of the province. But at the same time, from the people I have had a chance to speak to and the assessments I've seen, when the department had a district home economist in that area, she did a great deal of very fine work.

A great deal of that work was with the native folks in that area. For that reason, I raise the question here with the minister, whether it more properly comes under the minister's department or under Health and Social Development, or whatever it is now. I want to make the point that regardless of where the program may come from, I think this is the kind of expenditure that can be pretty well justified in a Slave Lake area, be it from Agriculture or some other department. If the minister would care to comment on those two, Mr. Chairman, I just have a couple more areas to wrap it up. MR. MOORE: Mr.

Chairman, first, with respect to the report of the Farmers' Advocate, there's no statutory requirement. So it would not be a tabling, but rather a filing. Yes, I would expect to be filing a report of the Farmers' Advocate prior to the end of this session. Secondly, with respect to the district home economist in Slave Lake, as the hon. Leader of the Opposition is probably aware, I'm well acquainted with the situation there. I've had a number of representations, with respect to those services, from people in the Slave Lake area and the Member for Slave Lake. As the Assembly would know, Mr.

Chairman, the Slave Lake district home economist's office was first opened under a special Slave Lake project wherein the Government of Canada was paying part of the costs of the operation. When that program expired, we had to revert to our normal manner of allocating the services of district home economists. We moved the district home economist from there to Manning, in an area where there was none. There were many more farm families to serve.

That doesn't mean in any way that the district home economist who was in Slave Lake was not providing a valuable service, and one that was well thought of by the people in that area, including the native commu­ nity. We recognize that. I suppose the difficulty is, you have to recognize that the traditional role of the Department of Agriculture and home economist serv­ ices is to provide services to farm families. We've been asked to expand those services into the urban areas, into the native communities, into a variety of other situations where we can't show a substantial number of farm families.

Without some substantial increase in the numbers of home economists, we're just not able to do that. I would guess that in order to provide a reasonable degree of home economist services through the Department of Agriculture to the major urban areas, plus some of the areas like Slave Lake, where there are not that many farm families, would take something in the order of 30 or 40 new home economists in the province in one year. So it was a tough decision to move home economists out of the Slave Lake area.

But that's one of the things you have to do when you're dealing with a program that has a duration of three or four years. In fact, the federal government withdrew its funding for that home economist, and we were faced with that decision. I would hope that people would see some value in our decision to provide services from High Prairie in the Slave Lake area, recognizing that it's not as good as having a home economist based there. But cer­

April 5, 1976 ALBERTA HANSARD 561 tainly, the High Prairie home economist will be visiting the Slave Lake area from time to time and will be of some assistance. MR. CLARK: Mr. Chairman, just three rather brief concluding comments. I simply say this. Frankly, as far as we are concerned, we think the expenditure on the Land Use Forum of well in excess of $100,000 could be substantially reduced, as my colleagues indicated.

Having regard for the fact that the Minister of Municipal Affairs has already told us that as far as planning legislation is concerned, he's going ahead with it anyway — and I wouldn't want my comments on Dr. Wood or other people on the Forum to be reflected as negative — I simply say this: the Forum has spent something like $600,000 and the work is basically finished. I don't think spending another $100,000 in this area at this time deserves the kind of priority the minister has indicated in the budget. The second area I want to talk about for just a moment, Mr. Chairman, is this question of travelling expenses.

If you go through the Department of Agriculture estimates, you'll find a very, very sizable amount of money for travelling expenses. Now, I know that as soon as one talks about reducing travel­ ling expenses, someone says you don't want the DA, you don't want this person or that person to come out to various areas. I simply say, Mr. Chairman, that I hope we don't see the same kind of thing in all the other departments that we've seen in this department with regard to build-up of travelling expenses in some sections of the department. I emphasize "some sec­ tions of the department".

Third is this question of consultants. I haven't had a chance to go through all the contracts with the department yet, but I draw one particular situation to the attention of the minister. I guess it's the typical thing that happens with government departments, but I'm not sure that it should be happening as far as consulting contracts are concerned. This is one of the areas that we can cut down on if we really want to, and a similar kind of thing can be said of the land-use situation.

In the information the minister made available to us, one of the contracts is with Colorado State University for the analysis of ground- squirrel stomachs. Something like $6,500 is involved. Now I know $6,500 isn't a large amount of money when you look at the total amount of consulting fees in the whole department.

But it would be very interesting — and perhaps we'll have a chance to to do this next year in public accounts — to go through the contracts and see the number of contracts that do in fact have a high priority, given the priorities the government has stated as far as agricul­ ture is concerned, and the other kinds of contracts that are let out. It's impossible to do that, especially with this being the first department in the course of the estimates.

I conclude my remarks by simply saying that we think the expenditures of the department could be hacked sizably as far as the Land Use Forum is concerned, as far as travel in a number of areas is concerned — there certainly could be some hacking there — and as far as consulting fees are concerned. You can always put in money for consulting fees.

I would be much more impressed if the information we get from the various departments says what the consulting fees are in fact going to be for in the course of the year prior to taking the consultant on, rather than waiting until after one finds the consultant and then, in some cases, dreaming up a program. Just one last comment I would make: I am pleased the minister is going to file with the Assembly the report of the Farmers' Advocate, and I want to thank the minister for his willingness to make information available to us. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Are there any further questions with respect to the Department of Agriculture? Mr. Minister, have you any concluding remarks? MR. MOORE: No, Mr. Chairman. I would like to move that Votes 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5, the estimates of the Department of Agriculture, be reported. [Motion carried] Department of the Solicitor General MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister, do you have any opening remarks? MR. FARRAN: Mr. Chairman, perhaps I should begin with a very short overview of the functions of the department, if that's in order with the committee. HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. FARRAN: Mr.

Chairman, this is a comparatively small department in the total provincial budget. But it's a very important one that's at the forefront of the public mind today, in light of the statistics which show an increase in crime that is giving concern throughout the nation. The budgets before you reflect improvements in the system suggested by Mr. Justice Kirby in his Board of Review, and policy moves by the department to try to strengthen the system in various areas where weaknesses have been apparent. Mr.

Chairman, I should say, like the Attorney General, that corrections in this province, as in other provinces, suffers from many, many decades of low priority. It's now at the top of the government's priority for attention. As the minister responsible, I could perhaps say I think it's high time. The department is responsible for law enforcement in an indirect fashion through the many municipal police forces, the largest of which, of course, are in Calgary and Edmonton. It's also responsible for the RCMP operating under contract.

There are close to 1,000 mounted policemen in that category and another 400-odd who are acting as municipal police­ men under contract to local government. The budget highlights continuation of the new initi­ ative taken last year to provide fiscal support to municipal police forces in relation to their population. In addition to that, over and above the 11 per cent guidelines, there is provision for some $2.25 million of extra grants for enhanced law enforcement and crime prevention.

We have seven correctional institutions in the province: Peace River, Fort Saskatchewan, Leth- bridge, Calgary Correctional Institution and Calgary Remand Centre, and the new facility which is starting

562 ALBERTA HANSARD April 5, 1976 to be developed this year at Nordegg, where an outward bound adventure school will be embarked upon for handling young offenders who might benefit from such a program. The idea there will be to introduce to the corrections concept the therapeutic value of outdoor work and exercise, to try to stimulate self-esteem and pride among young offenders through outdoors challenge. The province has en­ gaged the senior civil servant who was responsible for setting up the DARE Adventure Camps which are run on similar lines in the province of Ontario.

He is considered to be the top expert in Canada in this field. He is now carrying out his preliminary investigation of what we will require in Nordegg, and provisions are contained for this in the budget. The correctional institutions are also in the process of developing better classification so offenders can be handled according to age, degree of offence, and length of sentence. This is a difficult exercise in crowded institutions, but without it there can not be too much method in the handling within the institutions.

In Fort Saskatchewan, as everybody knows, we have a particularly acute problem which reflects the enormous backlog in the lower court: the enormous number of lengthy remands, the delays in the court system, all of which have been pointed to by Mr. Justice Kirby. The Attorney General is taking steps so far as the courts are concerned to try to rectify the situation. In Fort Saskatchewan we have some 500 inmates in an institution basically designed to handle 200.

During the last year we have moved to try to adjust to this situation by investing some $2 million in capital improvements, so we can have a better flow of inmates through the institution and the classification committees have a better chance of functioning. That program should be largely completed by the beginning of next month, although some additions have recently been made in light of the escapes by some prisoners serving sentences for more serious types of offences. The other move taken by my predecessor, the Hon.

Helen Hunley, to try to relieve some of the overcrowd­ ing strain on Fort Saskatchewan, was to use Belmont as a medium security institution. There pre-release training could be given and it could be handled as a day parole institution for inmates who were trusted enough to undertake employment or vocational edu­ cation in the community. Other steps taken during the year have been to develop a mobile-home day parole camp, next to the Poundmaker alcoholism school northeast of Edmon­ ton, for native offenders who have been incarcerated for offences connected with the abuse of alcohol.

We have also developed another day parole camp of mobile homes outside the correctional institution at Spy Hill. This avoids the danger of day parolees returning to the main institution at night and being pressured to bring in contraband and that type of thing. The day parole camps can be run as minimum security institutions but with a disciplined environ­ ment at night when the inmates return from work or some form of education. As I have earlier informed the House, we have embarked at the same time on a three-pronged fine-option program. The pilot restitution program in Calgary is proceeding.

It has encountered some problems, but none of them is insurmountable. We're quite pleased with the progress. The work-for- fine attack of the fine-option program has been launched in Edmonton as of February 6, and is again showing some early signs of success. During the course of the year we have to develop a third initiative for the payment of some fines by civil process, where the fine is considered to be a judgment. The sheriff would be empowered to attach real property where money is not readily available to pay the fine, thus trying to avoid the incarceration of non-payers of fines.

Between 43 and 46 per cent of the inmates in provincial correctional institutions are there for non-payment of fines. While I'm on correctional institutions, perhaps the members would be interested in a few statistics which will give them some idea of what goes on. Perhaps I should tell you first that provincial institu­ tions are meant to look after prisoners serving sentences of less than two years.

However, this isn't a hard and fast rule because the province also has to hold prisoners who are awaiting trial, have been remanded while their trial is in progress, have been brought in from federal penitentiaries for appeal, or as witnesses in other cases. So we are also dealing with a smaller number of prisoners who may be facing charges for much more serious offences than those normally handled in provincial institutions. On agreement with the federal government, we also have some 15 women offenders who are serving sentences longer than two years.

The rationale there was that instead of keeping them in distant Ontario, it would be better if they were held in provincial institu­ tions closer to their home towns so they could have visitors and so on during their rather lengthy sentences. I'll give you some of the statistics which make one better understand the situation. The large majority of prisoners are serving less than six months, so any lengthy trade instruction doesn't seem feasible. The most one can do is give short elementary courses in trades. We are developing this from the colleges and vocational schools.

We are particularly grateful for the initiatives taken in Grande Prairie, Fairview, and those areas in the northwest corner of the province toward Peace River in giving vocational instruction at the Peace River Correctional Institution. It's working out extremely well. We hope the same system can be extended quickly to the other correctional institutions. Jail population under 21, 40.12 per cent; percentage of natives in our jail population, 47.56 per cent; percentage of jail inmates sentenced to six months or less, 71.48 per cent.

So 71 per cent of all the inmates being held are serving sentences of six months or less. You can well understand that these are mostly sentences of a comparatively minor nature, compared to some of the really serious ones encountered in this field. The latest count for those serving time for non­ payment of fines was 36 per cent, but it has been as high as 46 per cent. Of the prison population, 40 per cent is in for alcohol- or drug-related offences. Inci­ dentally, native admissions to provincial jails have not fluctuated appreciably since 1971.

They have remained at about the figure I just gave you, 47 per cent. The average number of prisoners on day parole in the province over the last year was 82. It's not a large number. Those who think that the judge

April 5, 1976 ALBERTA HANSARD 563 sentences, they go in the front door and very quickly out the back door are probably under a misconception. Of course, they're not eligible to apply for day parole until they've served one-third of their sentence. The Department of Social Services and Community Health is this year working together with this depart­ ment in improving forensic psychiatric services in the institutions. We had 6,200 adults on probation as of November 30, 1975. This compares with 1,800 juveniles on probation at the same time.

We project the parole caseloads for probation officers for the forthcoming year at an average of 54. However, in some parts of the province, they go as high as 76:1 or 80:1. In the rural areas, the number is considerably less. The hon. Member for Clover Bar asked me the other day whether the Ontario statistic that 7 per cent of the population drank 40 per cent of the liquor was correct. AADAC believes it is correct, and does hold in Alberta too. The operation Check Stop checked over half a million cars last year — 504,569 cars were checked.

The traffic deaths in Calgary and Edmonton are not very different from the national average, although the fatality rate in Calgary is higher than in the rest of the province and gives us cause for concern. Our departmental staff totals 1,780 people. The Alberta crime rate is the second highest in Canada. AN HON. MEMBER: Second highest? MR. FARRAN: B.C. has a somewhat higher rate. It's not only the second highest, but the three western provinces, B.C., Alberta, and Saskatchewan, have a considerable lead in this regard over the others. MR. R.

SPEAKER: Would the minister comment on how those statistics are arrived at? You can generalize the crime rate, but just how do you categorize that? MR. FARRAN: Well, it's a good question. It may be that our police are more efficient in reporting com­ plaints than other jurisdictions. But that is on cases reported, not on convictions. We have a very high divorce rate in Alberta. Maybe I shouldn't underline it, but it's there. We have a very high divorce rate, which may account for some of our trouble. This department is a comparatively new depart­ ment. It began in 1974.

I'm very proud of the expertise that has been developed under both my predecessor and me. It's a department which was breaking new ground and it's done an extremely good job in the short time it's been in existence. The department has been lucky in obtaining an experienced deputy minister and an ADM in Mr. King, who had considerable background in corrections in the maritimes. The big change in the department this year was the assuming of responsibility for the motor vehicles branch, which in effect was about 40 per cent of the former Department of Highways.

When you see a big leap in some of the figures in Vote 1 for instance, this is largely accounted for by the department having inherited this very big function of licensing motor vehicles. At the same time, it took over the highway patrol division of some 70 auxiliary policemen who are mainly responsible for checking the overloads of trucks, making certain that the highway regulations in regard to loads are observed, and a new direction we've given them in connection with the enforcement of suspensions of licences for various offences under The Motor Vehicle Administration Act.

We have some 1,000 employees in the correctional institutions. The budget this year is for 1,022 correc­ tional institute staff. We have some 230 in the probation service. Their main duty is not only super­ vising the conditions on probation or suspended sentence, but also preparing for judges what is known as the presentence report, to give the judge more background to enable him to make a sentence which fits the crime.

In the area of corrections, this department is also responsible for the community residences about which questions were asked in the House the other day and which are really private residences with a disciplined environment operating under contract. We pay them fee-for-service for sheltering some jail parolees, some cases released on temporary absence to go to school or to work, and in some cases for providing accommodation for convicts who have served their sentence and been released into the community. We only constitute a very small part of their business.

Their main clientele comes from the federal penitentiaries. This

section in the department not only looks after the community residences, but it is also charged with the new fine-option program. The family court in Calgary comes under the Department of the Solicitor General. The one in Edmonton operates under Judge Bowker, by special arrangement with the Department of the Attorney General. The department is also responsible for a policy direction to the Alberta Liquor Control Board and the Alberta Racing Commission. I think that's a pretty fair

summary and overview, Mr. Chairman. I'd be happy to answer questions on the department's general directions and policies either now or as we go through estimate by estimate. Perhaps I should save a little time to point to the obvious questions which would be asked on page 281. Would that be in order, Mr. Chairman? The question as to why some of these votes have gone up by a certain percentage. Or would you rather I dealt with them as we came to them? MR. NOTLEY: Let's have it now. MR. CHAIRMAN: We can have it in the overall if you like, Mr. Minister. That would be fine. MR. FARRAN: All right.

Well, the obvious first question is: why have departmental support services gone up 22.7 per cent? The additional staff assumed from the administration of the motor vehicles branch and the highway patrol division which we've inherited from the former Department of Highways, are almost wholly responsible. The other big increase in law enforcement — 31.7 per cent in Vote 3 — is due to the recognition of the priority to strengthen law enforcement in the prov­ ince. So this extra money is going in in terms of transfer grants to the municipal police forces, and of

564 ALBERTA HANSARD April 5, 1976 course the increased cost of the RCMP contract, which we presently pay on a 50-50 basis with the federal government. The costs per RCMP constable have gone up. The present estimate is that they're running in the neighborhood of $35,000 or $36,000 per constable. When you divide that in half, our share is about $18,000. That includes all their overhead, their headquarters, their central crime records, and their recruit training. MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to make a few comments in the overall department.

I'm going to start with one or two questions; then I wanted to say a word or two about it. The first question is: does the federal government reimburse the province for looking after persons who are charged and who are waiting for a court decision? I understand this is paid for entirely by the province. I would suggest that the federal government is now throwing a lot of things back at the province — programs such as medicare that they've started by offering 50 per cent to the provinces. At that time it was almost impossible not to accept the federal offer.

Now the federal government is endeavoring to get out of that program, throwing the whole cost on to the shoulders of the people of each province. This can be cited in a number of instances in federal and provin­ cial relations. If the federal government is going to continue to do that type of thing, I would suggest the province request the federal [government] to pay for every person who has been charged with breaking a federal statute, and who if convicted would go to a federal penitentiary.

I really don't see any reason at all why our provincial jails should be jammed and the province go through all the agony and abuse because of that overcrowding, when a great deal of it is due to people who should be the responsibility of the federal Department of Justice. The least they can do is reimburse the province for charges in that connection.

I would again say, without having the actual figures at hand, that if the federal government did look after all their prisoners waiting for trial under charges of the Criminal Code or federal statutes, possibly our provincial prisons wouldn't be overcrowded at all and we wouldn't need the increase in the budget we're paying here. I want to emphasize that as far as I'm concerned this is a federal responsibility, and I don't think the federal government should be foisting this charge onto the shoulders of the provinces.

So I would like to have the comments of the minister, and I hope he will say that a concerted fight will be put up with Ottawa for them to pay their proper fees in this connection. The next point I'd like to mention is in connection with juveniles who commit their first offence. I notice the hon. minister said there are 18,000 juveniles on probation, and 40 per cent of the persons are under 21. I don't want to make any blanket charges against the correctional institutions, but I'm beginning to feel that the old name should be reapplied instead of "correctional institutions".

In my view there's not enough correctional work being done in these institu­ tions. As a matter of fact, there's some evidence to indicate that young people are going in and coming out hardened criminals. I say I don't want to make this a blanket charge, because I don't have that type of information.

But I do have some instances that lead me to believe that the wardens and people who are placing juveniles in their prison — and I refer specifically to the Spy Hill jail in Calgary — are not using very good judgment or very good sense, or not even listening to the letters that reach them — which, incidentally, in many, many cases are not answered.

I know of a case in my own constituency where a young person got under the control of another young person, and the person of the first part had to take the brunt of the whole business, all engineered by one person very skilful in crime, whose determination is to beat the law and to show how smart he is and call policemen "pigs", et cetera. Well, this other young lad had never been in a court. He comes from a very good home. He didn't know what to do in court. He didn't know how to conduct himself. He was a slow thinker, and he became involved.

He went to the court and even before the father knew about it — the lad hadn't left home — the lad was in handcuffs when the father arrived, and he was sent to Spy Hill. A short time later the lad who engineered the whole thing was sent to Spy Hill and, lo and behold, he was placed in the same cell with this young lad from the same community. Now, to start with, the warden had information about this from the parents, and I would think he would have shown at least good enough judgment not to put those two prisoners together.

To try to correct the first one when the ringleader was in the same cell with him was almost an impossible task. Why young prisoners from the same locality are ever put in the same cell is really beyond me. Certainly, when the warden had the information that the second one was the ringleader, I think this was an inexcusable act on the part of that warden. I'm not saying this is done generally. This is one case, and I know you can't judge everything by one case.

But I point out the one case because I think the principle I'm trying to develop is very important: in our communities throughout Alberta today, there doesn't seem to be any place a concerned parent who is worried about his son or daughter, who is perhaps between the ages of 14 and 18, can go to get assistance. A parent goes to the police, and they say, well, has he committed an offence? No, he hasn't committed an offence, but I'm afraid. He's with this bad company. I'm afraid of what's going to happen. What can we do about it?

While many policemen do spend their time with wolf cubs and scouts and that type of work, generally speaking they say, there's nothing we can do. You know, I would think we could cut down drastically the number of juveniles in our prisons if we had some avenue through which concerned parents and even concerned juveniles could go if they felt they were being led astray and they didn't want to end up behind prison bars.

One of the constituents in my area has a sugges­ tion: instead of spending all the money we're spending on keeping them in jail, maybe we should spend a little bit of this money in the communities on what he called a citizens' council, made up of probably one police officer, the school teacher, school superintendent, a citizen of the community who's very interested in young people, maybe a scoutmaster, a guide leader, or maybe someone from

April 5, 1976 ALBERTA HANSARD 565 some other department. I would think a minister or a priest would be mandatory, so the lad could receive counselling if that were necessary. I did put a question on the Order Paper, because I wanted to estimate how much this type of program would cost if it were entered into. Of course, the answer hasn't come back yet. As a matter of fact, the question hasn't yet been approved by the Legislature. But whatever that daily cost is to keep these people in prison, if we can keep one out it's going to be worth a lot to society.

I would like to see the hon. minister give some cognizance to a citizens' council. I would be quite prepared to say that maybe Drumheller would be an excellent pilot point where this could be tried out, by stopping young lads who are on the way to prison before they get there. If we could do that, we're going to do a wonderful service to that young life and to the community. I'm satisfied it can be done. I know a number of young people behind prison bars who, if they had just been able to get the right counselling at the right time, would certainly not be there today.

Once they do get there, then I hope we can do something better than shove them into a cell with a ringleader, where they have little or no hope, from that time on, of being rehabilitated. I want to raise that, and I may raise it later. But those are the main points I wanted to deal with in regard to these young offenders. I'm concerned with the number of young offenders who are going to jail. I'm concerned with the lack of facilities young people can go to when they feel that the stress and strain of the community is so much that they're gradually getting into bad company and going downhill.

I sat in the courtroom in Edmonton one morning, and I was amazed at the number of young people who were there. They didn't look like thugs to me. They didn't look like people with criminal tendencies. They looked like fine young men who didn't know where to turn. They were frightened by the whole court procedure. They'd never been there before, and they didn't know what to do. They were afraid. I think any of us in that position might also be afraid. I wish we could get some place where these young people could go and have some understanding, so that they're not sent to jail with a criminal record and so on.

If we can stop them before they get that far, it would be a wonderful help. The other point I want to mention is that if they aren't stopped, if they go to a correctional institution and then come out and go back to their community, they've got two strikes against them. In spite of all we say and all we preach, the community still points its finger at the lad. He was in jail so he's supposed to be a no-good. Many of us may have committed the same crime in our youth, but were fortunate enough to have somebody with an understanding mind who led us away from that type of life. But we point our finger at him.

Now, I think that would be another wonderful function for this citizens' council. He could go back to that community and get guidance from those on the citizens' council, which would have understanding, patience, and tolerance with a view to trying to rehabilitate that lad, not in prison but outside, to help him with the problems he is facing, so he can begin to readjust. Surely, if we're trying to rehabilitate people in our prisons, and spending a lot of money to do it, the object is to make them good citizens of this country, good citizens of a community.

If that is so, how much better to spend probably far less money in communities to try to do that before they get to prison, or, if they do get to prison, to try to rehabilitate them and keep them from going there a second and a third time. That is again why I put the question on the Order Paper. How many of these young people are going to prison a second, a third, and a fourth time? If that is happening, the correctional institution is misnamed, because they are not being corrected. Some of them are coming out harder than they went in. I think the hon.

Solicitor General should take a pretty careful look to find out if they are correctional institutions. Are our young people particularly, coming out more hardened than they were before they went in? There's just one other point along this line that I want to mention. Something I don't think is being done, if it is I haven't heard of it, is the monitoring of these people after they leave prison. Is any check made on how many are returned? How many do go astray? Is any evaluation made when that lad is leaving prison of the findings: what the psychologist thought, what the instructors in the prison thought?

Is any evaluation made so that something can be done afterwards? Or can it be monitored, so we can say whether our correctional institutions are correc­ tional or if it is simply a misnomer, simply a name? I think this is important. If we're going to know what's going on in our prisons and our correctional institutions, the best thing we can do is to have a lad who comes out never go back again. Then we're really rehabilitating. They're becoming useful citizens.

But if they go back and back and back — we find some people after spending a lifetime, 40 years, in and out of prison or in and out of mental hospitals — and if we're still trying to rehabilitate a person who has been there for 40 years, it makes me shake my head. Something's wrong someplace. Either the lad or the man can't be rehabilitated at that age, or someone failed to find the way of doing it. Some years ago I visited Father Flannigan's Boys' Town in the United States. I spent the best part of a week there.

I was delighted with what I saw, because there was not only a checkup at the beginning when the boy entered, but a determination to try to make that lad a good citizen of Boys' Town. There was an evaluation almost week by week to see whether that lad was progressing. If he wasn't, he had someone, the scoutmaster, a priest or a sister, to go to, to find out why he wasn't developing, why he wasn't growing, why he wasn't correcting the things that bothered him outside. I spoke to one Negro boy there who was once headed for the electric chair.

He told me that from the time he entered, and then week by week, he was able to become what he considered a useful citizen. That lad of about 21 — he was a huge chunk of a Negro boy — said when he arrived there the first thing that Father Flannigan said to him was, I'm glad you came to our town; we welcome you and we want you to become a useful citizen in this town. The Negro boy said to me, it was the first time in my whole life that anybody ever said they were glad I was there. That was the beginning.

I saw him carry a crippled boy across a field a good half mile in order that that crippled boy could see a ball game. I

566 ALBERTA HANSARD April 5, 1976 thought, it's really working here, that lad will never be before the law again. Well, the point I'm trying to make is, I hope we can carry out some evaluation or monitoring of these young people after they leave our correctional institu­ tions to find out whether or not the correctional institutions are doing the job the government wants them to do, that we're spending this money for. There's just one other point in the overall that I want to mention, the control and development of horse racing.

I haven't gone into the details of this 11 per cent increase, but I hope the hon. minister can give us some pretty sound reasons why we want to spend more money on horse racing and the control of horse racing. It seems to me that that should have a pretty low priority. Not the control, but I think anything in line with encouraging horse racing shouldn't come from the public purse. I would like to have the hon. minister deal with that particular item to indicate why we're having an 11 per cent increase in the control and development of horse racing. The control I can see, but the development I question. DR.

BUCK: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to make a comment or two about this department. I'm a little appalled when the minister considers a $71 million department a small department. But I would like to say to the minister that the way the government's been treating this department and the concern it seems to show, I can understand why he thinks it's small. After five years it's just about time, Mr. Chairman, that this government started taking the responsibility upon itself that it should, instead of saying, well, we're trying to clean up decades of indifference, and nothing is ever happening.

I would like to say to the minister, Mr. Chairman, that the advances this government has shown in the last five years in corrections are certainly in the wrong direction. When we look at what has hap­ pened, especially in Fort Saskatchewan, our advances are rapidly backwards. I think, if you speak to any of the people working there, this is just about exactly what they would tell the hon. minister. A good example of that, Mr. Chairman, is when we look at the selling of Bowden before we knew what we were going to do with these young offenders.

I think the government certainly showed a lack of foresight when they took that institution out of our system and sold it to the federal government without some decent, proper place to put the young offender. I would like to say to them that I'm glad to see they are finally aware of the fact that we do have a problem, and they're trying to do something in Belmont. I think this is probably a credit to the former minister.

I would like to say that at least this time the new minister didn't give us that hearts and flowers speech the former minister gave us about all the great and wonderful things that are going to happen in corrections. It took us 18 months to appoint a warden in Fort Saskatchewan. Then it only took us a matter of a day, or a very short interval of time, to replace that chief correctional officer with a new one. Mr. Chairman, I certainly have no quarrel with the man who is there.

But I certainly have quarrel with the way that competition was handled, because to me it wasn't handled the way it should be — asking for applications right across the country. It took us 18 months to get the first director, then practically with a snap of the fingers we had a replacement. Mr. Chairman, in the area of the RCMP serving some of our communities, I think we're becoming a little bit too centralized. I compliment the communities — I believe Gleichen was one of the small communities that fought tooth and nail when their small detachment was going to be taken out of the town.

In my area, at Lamont, the small detach­ ment was taken out. When we look back, that should not have happened. This is no slight upon the detachment in my town of Fort Saskatchewan. They are an excellent force, doing an excellent job. But the people in the smaller communities feel that if you have your police — a two- or three-man detachment — right in your community, it's quite obvious you're going to be getting better policing from that fine force. An area that causes me great concern, Mr. Chair­ man, is our apparent apathy for the drinking driver.

I think, as members of this Legislature and members of the general populace, we speak out of the side of our mouth when we are really concerned about the drinking driver. If we really wanted to control the drinking driver, we could do it. We could enact that kind of legislation in this Legislature. We could ask our enforcement officers to enforce it, and we would keep the drinking driver off the highway. I don't think society really wants that. And we, as members of the Legislature, don't seem to consider it's that much of a problem.

The only time we really think about it is if one of our family or one of our near friends happens to get killed. Then we think it's a real problem. Until we become sufficiently concerned to make it difficult, almost impossible, to drink and drive, as they do in some of the European countries, we will not solve the problem. Mr. Chairman, I say to the hon. Solicitor General that the Check Stop program is almost completely losing its effect. I drive many miles, as other members of the Assembly do. The only time I've been stopped by Check Stop, it happened to be two of them within three nights.

I haven't seen hide nor hair of them before that time and since that time. If we really want to get tough, let's park a couple of those patrol cars outside some of the drinking establishments. Because if that's going to act as a deterrent — when you know that car is out there with that little thing you blow into — you're not going to fall out of the door of that drinking establishment if you know that you're going to be picked up. So if we really mean business, let's get at it. Let's get at it, Mr. Minister. I'm not too happy, Mr.

Chairman, with the lack of support the Solicitor General, the Minister of Munici­ pal Affairs, and the Member for St. Albert have given the people in the Horsehills-Oliver area in their opposition to the federal penitentiary going in that area. I'm glad to see the Minister of Municipal Affairs is concerned now. But he certainly doesn't seem to be giving the people in the area any advice as to what they can do to try to discourage the federal govern­ ment from putting that penitentiary in that area, because it is a problem. It's an area of concern to the people in that area.

I can appreciate the minister's position. If the feds build a facility there, it's going to solve part of his problems. So I can see why he wouldn't wan