LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Friday, 8 May, 1987. Time - 10:00 a.m. OPENING PRAYER by Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER, Hon. M. Phillips: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions ... Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees . . . MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I wish to table the Financial Report of 1985-86 from the Department of Finance . MADAM SPEAKER: Notices of Motion ... Introduct ion of Bills . .

INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MADAM SPEAKER: Before moving to Oral Questions , may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery where we have 35 students from Grade 12 at the Thompson High School. The students are under the direction of Mr. Kenneth Drees and this school is located in North Dakota. We also have 54 students from Grade 5 from the Royal School under the direction of Miss Helen Kroeger . The school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Charleswood. On behalf of all the members, we welcome you to the Leg islature this morning .

ORAL QUESTIONS Budget - plan to counteract negative effects of MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you , Madam Speaker, my question is for the Premier .

A report was issued yesterday , I believe, by the Investment Dealers Association of Canada that indicates , just as the Royal Bank has indicated recently and as we have sta ted, members on this side have stated, as a result of the Manitoba Budget that was brought down last month , with obscene tax increases, Manitoba is now uncompetitive with other provinces in the country and will not be able to attract the new investment and the jobs that we must have in order to see our prov ince grow in the future .

What does this Premier plan to do to counteract the negative effects of that devastating Budget that he brought down last month? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister . HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, we have what we've seen since 1981, the doom and gloom members of this House , the doom and gloom members that have ever since 1981 attempted to build a barbed wire fence around the Province of Manitoba .

Despite their doom and gloom over the last five or six years , we have seen during that period of time , Madam Speaker , much faster than average growth in investment, job c reation , amongst the lowest unemployment rates in the country. Madam Speaker , in fact the Royal Bank that the Honourable Leader of the Opposition has made reference to, has already just recently indicated that Manitoba would lead the nation by way of economic growth over the next 10 years . So, Madam Speaker , all we are hearing is more doom and gloom .

It's rather peculiar, Madam Speaker, that when the investment dealers talk about the high taxes, because the Free Press , I thought, only a month ago , ran articles suggesting the rich were getting a tax break from the Minister of Finance and those articles were being used. Now we have the opposite version being proposed by the Leader of the Opposition . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition . MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker , the Premier obviously didn 't hear my question or didn't listen to it. Given that the investment in primary industry and manufacturing is down this year,

whereas there has been a major increase in capital spending by government ; given that the Investment Dealers Association has said that Manitoba is in for tough economic times , unless the Provincial Minister of Finance, Eugene Kostyra, reduces the deficit ; and if changes aren 't made soon , the province risks losing the strong growth that the Premier just talked about , losing that strong growth that we have enjoyed in the past because the government spending will come to an end; and, in fact, the private spending will not take its place; will the Premier acknowledge now that his policies , his budgetary policies , are killing private investment in Manitoba and, in fact, they must be changed in order to get jobs and investment in our economy in future .

HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker , again the Leader of the Doom and Gloom Party has spoken. The real economic growth in 1987 is projected to be 3 percent in the Province of Manitoba , that's down from 3.5, but it's going to exceed the national average by a wide margin , according to all projections , a much wider margin than Canada as a whole, Madam Speaker. 1832 I don't know whether the Leader of the Opposition is proposing that we follow the example of British Columbia and Alberta and Saskatchewan , and some of the other provinces in this country that have followed a different pattern .

If that is what he is proposing let

Friday, 8 May, 1987 him say so, Madam Speaker. Then I will be prepared to challenge those figures against our figures, by way of job creation, invest ment growth, economic growth, economic achievement for Manitobans , at any time, and then deficit reduction, as well, against any other western province. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, indeed , given that the Investment Dealers Association has said and I quote: "The economy is doing well now based primarily on the Limestone Project and the North Portage Development Project.

Once they are completed, there may not be any new private inve stment to fill the void, and the province's good fortunes would come to an end" ; given that they have said that, what is the Premier prepared to do now to change the situation that has seen us with the second-highest overall tax regime in the country, mortgaging our future to the young people of Manitoba , and having no prospects for the future for job creation. What will he do to change that? HON. H.

PAWLEY: I think it's appropriate this time, in view of the Leader of the Opposition's laudatory remarks about the effectiveness of Limestone, to remind the Leader of the Opposition of his less than enthusiastic support of Limestone three years ago in this Chamber , and before other boards that had applications in respect to permitting Limestone to proceed.

Madam Speaker, the intention of this government , because of the success of the last live, six years in ensuring there be economic leadership, that there be continuation by way of better than average job creation in Manitoba, as compared to other parts of Canada, that we continue to have amongst the lowest unemployment rates in Canada , would be to carry the course, to ensure that that which has worked successfully in the last five or six years, continue to work.

Madam Speaker, insofar as taxation, I don't know who the Leader of the Opposition is pointing to, but if we compare those with incomes of $20,000, $30 ,000 , $40,000, we take all factors into consideration, Manitoba is amongst the lowest , the lowest by way of taxation levels . If the Leader of the Opposition is referring to those with very, very high incomes , that may be a different situation. But if we were talking about ordinary Manitobans , Manitoba is amongst the lowest when you take into consideration Medicare premiums, tax credits, all the other factors that have to be included.

Commitment by Premier to deficit reduction MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, will the Premier commit to making deficit reduction a priority for Manitoba, given that the idea has warned , and I quote : "If changes aren 't made soon , the province risks losing the strong economic growth the economy has enjoyed in recent years"? Will he now commit to making deficit reduction a priority so we don 't risk losing all those things that he says he favours? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance . HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Madam Speaker .

Again we have a situat ion where the Leader of the Opposition is using selective statistics. I mean , he doesn't even talk about the opening statement in this document, nor the closing statement. The opening statement in the document says, "economic growth in Manitoba has outpaced the national average in each of the past years and the trend will continue in 1987." The closing statement in this document, Madam Speaker, says "the economic outlook for Manitoba is encouraging.

" But let me deal with this question in regard to deficits and debt , and th is is an issue that continually is raised by members opposite and some in the media suggesting that Manitoba's situation with deficits or debt is horrendous and is out-of-whack with the rest of Canada. A MEMBER: It 's true. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Well, what does this report say? Read what this report says , not what you believe it says. The report says that the '87-88 fiscal deficit is estimated at $415 million , or 2.4 percent of GDP. This is the lowest deficit in live years, both in absolute terms and as a percentage of GNP.

SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MADAM SPEAKER: Order, order please . Order. The Honourable Minister of Finance, briefly. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you , Madam Speaker, I will be brief. The members of the Opposition seem agitated by that statement. I want to see what this statement from the Investment Dealers Association does to them. It says this places the province 's debt to GDP ratio in the middle of ranking among the Canadian provinces and well below the level of the ratio for the Federal Government.

Per capita debt charges for fiscal '86-87 , we're the third lowest in Canada and well below the provincial average. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MADAM SPEAKER: May I remind honourable members that question period is not a ti me for debate. Request for new Budget MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. C.

MANNESS: Madam Speaker, given that the Investment Dealers Association has drawn attention to the tax competitiveness of this province , calling it amongst the worst; given the fact, Madam Speaker, that the President of the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce in the May mid-Canada Conference said that the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce was sucker­ punched with respect to pre-budget consultat ions with this Minister of Finance; and given , Madam Speaker MADAM SPEAKER: Order, order please . 1833

Friday, 8 May, 1987 May I remind honourable members of Beauchesne 362 which says: "It is not good parliamentary practice to communicate written allegations to the House, and then to ask Ministers either to confirm or deny them ." The Honourable Member tor Morris . The Honourable Opposit ion House Leader. MR. G. MERCIER: Madam Speaker , the Membe r for Morris has not even put his question yet and you 've interfered. MADAM SPEAKER: Order please . Is the honourable member reflecting on the Chair? I was cautioning the honourable member.

If the honourable member is reflecting on the Chair, he knows the proper process for dealing with that kind of situation . The Honourable Member for Morris . MR. C. MANNESS: Madam Speaker , given those two facts and also that the Royal Bank of Canada, in their revis ions dealing with economic forecasts for prov inces, markedly downgraded Manitoba 's prospec ts, will the Minister of Finance consider bringing forward a new budget, one that will reduce expenditures and moderate the tax increases that he has brought forward in this last Budge t? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honou rabl e Minister of Financ e. HON. E.

KOSTYRA: Again , Madam Speake r, we cont inue to hear the contradictory positions of members opposite. We have the Member for Morris getting up and saying we should bring down a new budget, and reduce expenditures a la or like the Province of Saskatchewan and the Province of Alberta, where they're hacking and slashing away . In Estimate debate that we have on an ongoing basis we have individual members getting up time and time again suggesting additional spending in various government departments.

It seems to me that they ought to get their act together and decide whether or not they are tak ing a position that we should be reducing expenditures or increasing expenditures . In terms of the Royal Bank Report, again let me remind the member that the report said , and the opening statement of that report said, they expect that the assumpti ons that they had made with respect to the Manitoba economy are going to remain on track .

We've got the situation this morning with respect to the late st unemployment stats that indicates that Manitoba is doing relatively better than any other province , other than the central provinces in Canada , Quebec and Ontario . MADAM SPEAKER: Orde r please, order please . I rem ind Honourable Ministers that answers should be brief. Conference Board of Canada - downgrading of economic forecast MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Madam Speaker, the Conference Board of Canada will be releasing its revisions of provincial economic forecasts over the next weeks.

My question to the Minister of Finance. Has the Conference Board of Canada communicated any downgrading forecast with respect to the provincial forecast, the Manitoba forecast of economic activity over the next year? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Again , let me indicate to the member that we have the reports today from the Investment Dealers Association and from the Royal Bank, that ind icate they expect Manitoba is going to continue to have strong economic growth. I provided references from those reports for the member.

We will deal with the situation as may be outlined by the Economic Counc il of Canada when the y provide their report and discuss that and debate it here. But let me go back to wh at the member raised previous, that I didn 't have a chance to respond to , Madam Speaker , when he talked about the situation where the government didn't liste n to the needs of business and that we ought to be reducing taxes for businesses in the province.

Yes, Madam Speaker, in a number of areas Manitoba has tax levels for businesses that are amongst some of the high est rates in Canada; but , also, if you look at the situation where taxes for ordinary Manitobans and you look , as the Premier outlined, for taxes for individuals, and you look at the cumulation effect of taxes for somebody at $20 ,000 income in Manitoba that pay the lowest taxes of any province in Canada . And I don 't apologize for that fact, Madam Speaker , because we have to have a balanced approach in terms of getting revenue , and business has to pay their fair share.

If the member opposite is saying we should reduce the cost for businesses and put more on individual taxpayers, or reduce services for individual taxpayers, that is the approach that is rejected by this government and has been rejected by the people of the Province of Manitoba when they've had the opportunity to vote on those issues at election time . Budget - multi-year MR. C. MANNESS: A final supplementary, Madam Speaker . As my leader has said, virtually all of the investment that has taken place in this province over the last two years has been because of the government borrowing and investing funds .

Madam Speaker , will the Minister of Finance now bring forward a multi-year budget so Manitobans will , once and for all , be able to realize what the revenues and what the taxes and what the deficit and what the debt of this province will be, three and four and five years from now , so they 'll not have to mortgage the future of their children for generations to come? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: I can indicate to the member that the approach this government will take with respect to dealing with those issues is the same as we 've done this year where we 've brought about, not only a continuation of support for essential services in our province ; we've brought about a reduction in the deficit and, as was pointed out by the Investment Dealers Association , we've got a deficit and debt charges that are at least the middle or lower range of Canadian 1834

Friday, 8 May, 1987 Provinces. We will not do what provinces to the west of us have done , who have reduced services considerably for people in their provinces, at the same time they've seen increases in their deficit. Or like the Marit imes provinces that have brought significant increases in their deficit. We will continue to work to ensure that we have the necessary mon ies to provide for essential services, have a fair and balanced approach to taxation and also bring about an orderly reduction in the deficit. Program to encourage confidence in province MADAM SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Arthur . MR. J.

DOWNEY: Thank you , Madam Speaker.

In view of the fact that this Premier and this Mini ster of Finance , and the one before him, has made Manitoba a financial basket case in the handling of public funds, Madam Speaker ; and in view of the fact that the Minister of Finance, by his own admission , is not surprised that the Investment Dealers criticism of his tax increases and his priority in spending; and in view of the fact that he says he's working on an investment concept, a concept of stock investments for the Province of Manitoba, when will he take action and reverse what has, in fact, been told to him this morning , the clim ate for private investment spending in this province ; when is he going to put a program in place that will encourage and turn around this downfall in the confidence of the province?

HON. E. KOSTYRA: I don't know where the Member for Arthur has been since 1981. This government has put in program after program that has assisted the private sector , that has assisted Manitobans to be in a position that we have the largest economic !Jrowth in this province outside of the two central provinces in Canada. We have the largest growth in employment, in this province, larger than any other province in Canada, other than the two central provinces in Canada.

It's been because of the diversified economy in the Province of Manitoba because of the strong business sector and, in part, because of the efforts of this government that we've had that continued economic growth and job creation for Manitobans which is the important bottom line in terms of Manitobans, and in terms of their need for gainful employment . Economic climate - lack of policies for MR. J. DOWNEY: Madam Speaker, to the Minister of Finance.

Is the loss of the major packing plant industry , Canada Packers, in Manitoba with some 850 jobs; this week 20 jobs of Centennial Packers , is that showing confidence in the economy, Madam Speaker, or is that just another bunch of evidence that his economic policies are failing and we don 't have the kind of economic climate to encourage the continuation of long­ term investment, as well as that of any new investment that may come? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: You know, it might be worthwhile to spend the time to get into the debate about the Canada Packers closing and what roles governments have played in respect to that issue over the last number of years, and what is taking place in the meat packing industry, and what actions colleagues of his and the Federal Government did to facilitate that situation . But let 's look at the facts, again , Madam Speake r. The employment growth in this province has been considerable and has been bette r than most oth er provinces in Canada, other than the central provinces .

Again, let me quote from the document that the Leader of the Opposition started with in question period today, the Investment Dealers Association. The Manitoba economy created 13,000 net new jobs in 1986, with employment up 2.7 since 1985; this was the third consecutive year of strong employment growth and they expect tha t will continue in the Province of Manitoba. Let me talk about inves tment because this document also talks about that and talks about the creation and expansion of business in Manitoba.

It talks about the situation with Carnation Foods ; it talks about Palliser Furn it ure , both projects that were facilitated and assisted by actions of this government. If you want to talk about new investm ent and continued investment, talk about the Gendis Corporation that has announced that it's going to expand its headquarters in the Province of Manitoba, showing confidence in the Manitoba economy with a creation of 75 new jobs here in the Province of Manitoba. Farmers - assistance to MR. J.

DOWNEY: Madam Speaker, in view of the fact that they're pro jected to have a 21 percent decline in net farm income this coming year; in view of the fact that the Federal Government has pumped some $534 million into the Province of Manitoba , as opposed to $85 million , this measly amount from this government , will he reconsider the taxation policies and his spending priorities and take money from Telephones where he spent $28 million in MTX, and all those other ill­ conceived expenditures , and put it in the pockets of the people of Manitoba so we don't see such a severe impact on the economy coming through the agriculture sector.

HON. E. KOSTYRA: This government is concerned about the plight of family farmers in the Province of Manitoba, and we have taken decisive action to deal with that, Madam Speaker. You know , we listen to the words of the demo ted agricultural critic from across the way and we're looking at a situation where the increase in spending for agriculture by this government is over 100 percent that of the previous government. MADAM SPEAKER: Ord er please. The Honourable Member for Arthur. 1835 MR. J. DOWNEY: Madam Speaker, I rise on not only a point of order, but a matter of privilege.

The Minister of Finance is making what I would consider a racist comment. He says that I am being demoted, being taken from the Agricultural portfolio to Native Affairs critic. Now I think that he should

Friday, 8 May, 1987 apologize to the Native community for the comments that he just made. MADAM SPEAKER: A dispute over the facts is not a point of order . The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Well , then I congratulate the member on his promotion to Native Affairs Critic , if that's how he views what he's doing . But let me talk about what this government is doing with resp ect to agriculture , Madam Speaker.

We have taken actio n to reduce the burden of taxation for family farms in Manitoba by providing significant increa se in school tax relief for family farms in Manitob a; we took action with respect to the red meat industry, through hog stabilization, through the beef stabilization ; we've taken other programs that the Minister of Agriculture has outlined on a num ber of occasions to assist family farms.

We have not taken action like their colleagues in Saskatchewan and Alberta, who increased spending on farm program s prior to their election and then , once re-elected, they decreased support for farmers in their provinces . Civil Service - number of employees MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Kirkfield Park . MRS. G. HAMMOND: Thank you , Madam Speaker. My question is for the Minister responsible for the Civil Service. On April 22, I asked the Minister if he could tell the House how many full time, term and contract employees are currently employed by the Civil Service.

Would the Minister have the answer for today? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister responsible for the Civil Service Commission. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Madam Spe aker. Yes, I do have that information . The information is, as of March 31, 1987 , the number of regular employees is 13,459; term employees, 1,518; cont ract employees, 53; other employees, which includes casual, seasonal, sessiona l, etc., 2,773 - for a total of 17,803.

For comparative purposes, because I hear a chuckle from the Member for Arthur, comparison purposes from March 31 , 1986 , the regular was 13,272; term, 1,429; contract , 96; other , 3,011 - for a total of 17,808 . Seven Regions Health Centre - in-camera meetings MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights . MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you, Madam Speaker . My question is to the Mini ster of Health . The Minister has been aware for some time, and I know his department has tried to work in an endeavour to bring some harmony between some opposition in the community and the Seven Regions Health Centre.

Unfortunately, democracy seems t o have gone somewhat awry in this particular health centre. Can the Minister tell the House why the health centre in this community , which obviously has some difficulties, is allowed to hold their meetings in camera? MADAM SPEAKER: The Hono ura ble Minister of Health . HON. L. DESJARDINS: Madam Speaker , yes, it's true , that I'm awar e of the concern we have in that region . I met with the local member , and also wit h the mem ber s of the board .

We have told them that we did not lik e to butt in, to inte rfe re with the business of the board if at all possible, and that the only reason we would , would be if the standard woul d be lowered . We did offer, if they requested that, to have somebody study the situation and make recommendations. We have not heard from them since - I understand they are still battling out and we're quite concerned . As far as the meeting , in camera , I'm not going to make a big thing out of this.

I've seen a lot of meetings that have been held in camera at certain times and I'm not about, as Minister of Health, to go around to the different boards and insist how they meet , certainly not at this time. I think if there's something that should go to the public , that certainly will be done . But I know that most of the hospitals - all the hospitals here that I know of - most of their meetings are private meetings. If there is a request for a public meeting, that's different . But I don 't think that it's advantageous in all instanc es to have a wide open meeting.

Certainly if there 's something the public should know, or is entitled to know, but not in the day-to-day running of every hospital. Seven Regions Health Centre - suspension of board member MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Yes, a supplementary question to the same Minister . Can the Minister explain to the House by what authority the chairman of the board of this health centre would suspend a board member from attending meetings, particularly as this board member was the duly-elected representative of the Town Council of Gladstone? HON. L.

DESJARDINS: This was brought to my attention, Madam Speaker , and I have the same concern. I've asked the commission to check if there was something in their by-laws or something that the chairperson had the right to do that. I doubt it very much . AIDS - categories of reported cases MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River East . MRS. B. MITCHELSON: Thank you , Madam Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Health . I, first of all, want to thank the Minister for the information he provided in the House regarding the 1836

Friday, 8 May, 1987 question I asked abo ut those carrying the AIDS virus, but the answers that he provided for me have left a lot of questions unanswered . The quest ion I specifically asked was : How many of the 100 Manitobans infected with the AIDS virus are No. 1, homosexual; No. 2, bisexual; No. 3, female; and No. 4, children; and the answer that he gave me was the information regarding the 17 full-blown cases of AIDS . I wonder if he could provide any further information for me. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Madam Speaker , obviously not, because I don 't know all the numbers who are affected at this time.

It could be that we might be able to give some information, but all the detailed information that is requested I don't think we'll ever be able to get that . MRS. B. MITCHELSON: Madam Speaker , the secon d question I have, the Minister provided information that of the 17 AIDS victims in Manitoba, all of them were homosexual , bisexual.

Can he indicate to me how many in fact are homosexual; how many are bisexual; and of those who are bisexual, Madam Speaker, were any of these married ; and if any of these were married, have their spouses been tested to see whether they have contracted the AIDS virus ; and what were the results of those tests? HON. L. DESJARDINS: I'd like to take this question under advisement at this time . I don't know if I can get all this information or I want to see what value it would be, if we did release that. AIDS - reporting by doctors MRS. B.

MITCHELSON: Madam Speaker, I'd like to ask the Minister of Health what information are doctors required to provide to the Department of Health regarding those infected with the AIDS virus? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Madam Speaker , you know that it is a reportable disease, so the doctor , if he has knowledge of a patient that is affected , must inform the depa rtment. Some of the information they get, they get the results of any test that is being done ; and obviously, they get the information of the background to see if the people are homosexual and so on.

That's why I was able to give the information that I had, but I'm talking about those who have AIDS at this time, not all the others. AIDS - statistics collected MRS. B. MITCHELSON: Madam Speaker , with a final supplementary . I'd like to ask the Minister of Health, when we have a disease that is as deadly as AIDS with no cure, should the government not be taking every step to ensure that we have full and factual statistics and information available to keep on top of its spread and , in fact, to know how many and whom this infection is spreading to? HON. L.

DESJARDINS: Madam Speaker , I can assure the honourable member and members of the House we will get all the information we can get that will have any bearing on treating or helping combat th is awful disease. We're doing that now and I can't repo rt all the details , and so on, that have been asked at this time . I don't think all that is germ ane or is necessarily important to the treatment of this disease. Some of the information no doubt is, but not all of it. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is also for the Mini ster of Health.

Madam Speaker , the Minister and his Cabinet colleagues recently made AIDS a reportable disease which now requires anyone who tests positive for the AIDS virus to be reported by an encoded number . Madam Speaker, my question to the Minister is, does the reporting of those carriers of the AIDS virus not provide information to the government as to whether they are a member of the alleged high-risk groups, whether they are homosexuals, hemophiliacs, whether they are bisexual, whether they are heterosexual , whether they are male , whether they are female.

Is that information not part of the information requested in making AIDS a reportable disease? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Yes, we've talked about the reportable disease by name . That's only those who have AIDS. Now the others, there is a test and it is by number and so on. Then all of this information, yes, we would have most of that information, not necessarily every deta il.

That's why I said I'd want to take it as notice to see what we have and what is felt should be released to the public , what will be of any benefit , not necessarily that we 're goin g to give out all this information if it has no bearing at all on the treatment. AIDS - statistics available MR. D. ORCHARD: Madam Speaker, is the Minister now saying in contrast to an answe r he gave earlier this morning, that individuals who are identified AIDS virus carrier positive , that the information will be made available now as to whether they are homose xual , bisexual, male or female?

Is he now saying that information will be made available to ans wer the question of the other 70-some-odd Mani tobans who are currently AIDS virus positive, information which he didn 't provide to this House earlier on? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Madam Speaker, now I'm saying the same thing that I said a few minutes ago, that I'll take it as notice and I'll see what purpose there was or what can be helpful in releasing the information. Some of that, no doubt , we have no problem at all, and then I will advise the House and release the information.

Child Care worker - disciplinary action re death of David Felix MADAM SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for St. Norbert . MR. G. MERCIER: Madam Speaker, I have a question to the Minister of Community Services . 1837

Friday, 8 May, 1987 Yesterday I asked her whether the worker involved in the case of the death of three-month-old Daniel Felix had previously returned an infant to a high-risk situation in which another infant had been killed. In view of her comments that this matter would have to be dealt with at the agency level , I would ask her why she would not have a policy regarding employment of child abuse workers who have been involved in two such incidents and ask her why she would not care about a worker with that record working in the child abuse field? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services.

HON. M. SMITH: Madam Speaker , I think yesterday when I answered that question, I did say there were two levels at which the responsibility rested : one at the agency level for the specific personnel related issue and the other level is our level where we are responsible for both setting standards and monitoring. I said that we did in the course of a review of a specific case , raise all these related issues with the agency to see whether they were in fact taking appropriate action . Aga in, the issue is evolving, in terms of child abuse worker s and the standards, the training.

I would welcome recommendations from the member opposite how we can best strengthen the system, but to allege that we don't care or that we haven't been taking ongoing action in building that system, I think he either didn 't hear what I said yesterday or didn't fully underst and it. I have asked for a full review of the situation, but in the normal flow of events I do receive these reports. The timing is often a problem because they are not completed unti l all court procedures and internal discussions with the agency have been completed. MR. G.

MERCIER: Madam Speaker, will the Minister investigate the question, which I asked here yesterday, and advise the House whether the worker had been involved in the previous incident to which I referred? HON. M. SMITH: Madam Speaker , as I say, the appropriateness of me commenting on an individual worker at the agency level , when they are the employing authority, I think is open to question. I think what I am responsible for is seeing that they have appropriate procedures.

I am of course privy to some information with regard to individuals, but the question of when and where I raise those details I think is one - (Interjection)- Well, I think it is an important issue, Madam Speaker , because of the focus of responsibility. The mandated agency is the employing authority ; I am responsible, through the department , to see that there are safeguards and standards being followed .

We have of course been following up on this particular case, Madam Speaker, and I think I did comment yesterday that it is sometimes a question of the timing of when an agency or we can take action, because the agency has an investigative procedure, the courts have, and we have to wait until the conclusion of that report to conclude our discussion. We have assured ourselves that the particular person in question is not dealing with sensitive matters without supervision . Appointment of new Minister of Community Services MR. G. MERCIER: Madam Speaker, I have a question for the First Minister.

Madam Speaker, my question to the Premier is this: Would the Premier appoint a Minister of Community Services who would investigate a question as to whether or not there is a worker in the system who has twice returned infants to high-risk situations in which those infants have been killed, and appoint a Minister who will establish a policy with respect to this matter, someone who cares about what is happ eni ng to these infants? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, I don 't think these are matters that should be dealt with in such a way - (Interjection)- that political profiteering is attempted insofar as something as tragic as the circumstances involving this death. The Minister has . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please . The Honourable Member tor St. Norbert on a point of order? MR. G. MERCIER: Yes, Madam Speaker , I raise a point of order . The First Minister has referred to my question as political profiteering. I believe that imputes motives and is unparliamentary, and I would ask that he withdraw those words. HON. H.

PAWLEY: My comments were related to comments by the Member for Pembina who shouted across the Chamber that the Minister didn't care about the death of a child . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina on the same point of order. MR. D. ORCHARD: Madam Speaker, on the same point of order, the First Minister has made an allegation which is false . I said that Minister did not care to investigate as to one of her staff, did not allow an investigation into whether those children died, and that is why that Minister is irresponsible and should resign. MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please.

The Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines on the same point of order? HON. W. PARASIUK: I was just standing to be recognized to answer a question that was raised yesterday . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. I have a point of order on the floor. A dispute over the facts is not a point of order, but could the Honourable First Minister please clarify that he was not imputing motives to the Honourable Member for St. Norbert? 1838

Friday, 8 May, 1987 The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, I wasn't imputing motives, but the Honourable Member for Pembina was heard by no less than - I don 't know how many people on this side of the Chamber - make the comments that he did . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please . The Honourab le Member for Pembina on the point of order . MR. D. ORCHARD : Madam Speaker, I refuse to accept that allegation from the First Minister. MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. I am dealing with the point of order, as raised by the Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. D. ORCHARD: Right , absolutely , Madam Speaker.

MADAM SPEAKER: Could we deal with that one first? MR. D. ORCHARD: Fine, we'll deal with that one first and then ... MADAM SPEAKER: Then I will recognize the Honourable Member for Pembina. I asked the Honourable First Minister to clarify that he was not imputing motives to the Honourable Member for St. Norbert. Could he please clarify that for the House? HON. H. PAWLEY: I thought I had , Madam Speaker, clarified that. I was not imputing any motive to the Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina . MR. D.

ORCHARD: Madam Speaker , the First Minister is then imputing motives to me. My comments were specific to . . . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MADAM SPEAKER: Order please . MR. D. ORCHARD: Madam Speaker , the First Minister was asked a question as to whether he would remove from ministerial responsibility a Minister who would not investigate whether a child-care worker , who twice returned a child to an abuse situation in the family, where those children consequently died . That is why I suggested that Minister has to resign, because she did not care to investigate staff in her department.

That is no other allegation than incompetence on behalf of the Minister . I want the First Minister to remove the allegation against me that I'm somehow political profiteering by wanting a Minister to be responsible for her staff . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader . HON. J. COWAN: Madam Speaker , first, I'd like to welcome the Member for Pembina back to the Chamber . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. As the Honourable Government House Leader knows HON. J. COWAN: On the point of order. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Opposition House Leader. MR. G.

MERCIER: Madam Speaker , I would rise on another point of order, and ask that you request the Governmen t House Leader to withdraw the comment which he has just made. MADAM SPEAKER: I was just in the process of doing that. MR. G. MERCIER: Thank you, Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader well knows that he is not to make reference to the absence or presence of any member. HON. J. COWAN: Thank you , Madam Speaker.

The tone in the House has obviously changed in the last few days , Madam Speake r, and if the Member for Pembina wishes to constantly chirp fro m his seat, which he does consistently, and if he wishes not to rise to his feet and put his comments on the record and then wishes to stand up later and say tha t he has been misinterpreted or misheard, I suggest that he only has himself to blame . Several members on this side have heard him not only on today but on far too many occasions, Madam Speaker ... MADAM SPEAKER: We're dealing with this one point. HON. J.

COWAN: I'm dealing with the point of order, Madam Speaker . Members in this House, not only today but on far too many occasions, have heard him throw those sorts of charges and allegations across the Chamber, and it is time now for that type of behaviour on the part of any member, no matter who it might be, to end in this House . If he has comments to make, let him have the courage to stand on his feet and make them in the proper fashion. MADAM SPEAKER: Order please . The Honourable Member for Pembina on the point of order. MR. D.

ORCHARD : Madam Speaker , I simply want the First Minister to indicate that his allegation of political profiteering did not imply to myself . That's what I want the First Minister to do. I don't want any background information from the "fixer" on that side of the House. I simply want the Premier to apologize to me. SPEAKER'S RULING MADAM SPEAKER: Order please , order please. 1839

Friday, 8 May, 1987 A dispute over the facts is not a point of order. On the other hand, the Honourable First Minister should not imply that anyone in this Chamber, as all members are honourable members, is political profiteering. I did not hear the comments in dispute . However , whether they were thi s way or that way, it does sound to me like a disagreement over the facts. Could the Honourable First Minister please withdraw the term, "politic al profiteering"? The Honourable First Minister . HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker , I heard those words; honourable members on this side heard those words.

I'm prepared to ackn owledge that no political profiteering but , Mad am Speaker , those words were heard on this side, not just by myself but many others . Appointment of new Minister of Community Services MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Thank you, Madam Speaker . I wonder if the First Minister would now answer the question . HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, the Minister of Community Serv ices is responsible for the overall establishment of standards and guidelines as the Minister responsible for Community Services.

Insofar as the enforcement of those standards and the supervision of those standards , that is the responsibility of the agency. So, in direct answer to the Member for St. Norbert - and I must say this , Madam Speaker . These cases , I believe, are so serious and are so tragic that they ought to be dealt with by the professionals in the field , the professionals who are in charge and are responsible.

Madam Speaker, I am very, very reluctant to see the bantering back and forth on a matter as tragic as the death of children in a social agency as, some way or other , the responsibility of the Conservative Party or the New Democratic Party.

Madam Speaker , I think the sooner we try to deal with this as a matter of responsibility at the social service level - the Minister assumes that responsibility for the supervision - the better we all are, rather than to - if the word " political profiteering " was improper , Madam Speaker , at least we should ensure that these tragic cases are dealt with where they belong to be dealt with, rather than this Chamber. Community Places Grant - Glenboro Golf Club MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Gladstone . MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you, Madam Speaker .

My question is to the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation. Can the Minister explain why the Community Places Grant application for the Glenboro Golf Club was turned down , when the labour component alone would have provided 19 people with jobs in the construction and finishing of that project , and provided wages in excess of $50 ,000 .00? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourabl e Minister of Culture , Heritage and Recreation . HON . J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Th ank you , Madam Speak er, I would be delighted to answer that question .

As I've said previously on many occasions, the demand for this program was just incredible. We did not expect that we would have received over 500 applications ; I think clearly demonstrating , Madam Speaker, that there is a real need throughout Manitoba for government to work together with communities to improve the quality of life . Regrettably , with that kind of demand on the system , it was not possible to approve every application.

I'm sure that if the member checks her region carefully and checks the kind of money that went into rural Manitoba, she will see that there has been an incredible infusion of money into her region and into rural Manitoba which will be of benefit to meeting the particular needs of that area. So I would suggest to the member that she explain the demand on the program to her community organizations and encourage them to apply again . MADAM SPEAKER: The time for Oral questions has expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY MOTIONS OF CONDOLENCE MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. J.

COWAN: Yes, Madam Speaker, the agreed­ upon routine for the day will be the moving of the Motions of Condolence. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister . HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker , I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Tuxedo, the Leader of the Opposition: THAT this House convey to the family of the late Hon .

Edward Gurney Evans, OBE , who served as a member of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba, its sincere sympathy in their bereavement and its appreciation of his devotion to duty in a useful life of active community and public service; and that Madam Speaker be requested to forward a copy of this resolution to the family. MOTION presented . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister . HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, Gurney Evans served the people of his community in the Province of Manitoba for many years. His record of public service commenced long before he entered this Chamber. It 1840

Friday, 8 May, 1987 included work with the Winnipeg Welfare Council, the Manitoba Hospital Service Association, the Board of Governors of Ridley College, the University of Manitoba, the Red River Valley Board , the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce and the Winnipeg Schools' Orchestra . Gurney Evans was the son of a former mayor of Winn ipeg. As well as having been educated at Ridley College and the University of Manitoba, he served with the Royal Winnipeg Rifles , the Royal Canadian Ordinance Corps.

He was awarded , in fact, one of the highest awards that can be awarded, the Order of the British Empire, and he retired, Madam Speaker, with the rank of Lieutenant-Colonel. Gurney Evans was elected to the Manitoba Legislature by the people of Fort Rouge in 1953 and was re-elected four times, serving until 1969. I believe there would be some members in this Chamber, certainly the Member for Lakes ide would have served, and the Hon. Minister of Health would have served with the Hon. Gurney Evans .

He served until 1969 and during his time in this House , he held a variety of portfolios, including Industry and Commerce , Mines and Natural Resources ; and, I believe , just prior to 1969, the very important responsibility of the Ministry of Finance. Madam Speaker, it was my pleasure as well to have known, not intimately, but certainly to have known Gurney Evans. I had occasion to meet him from time to time and to recognize the fact that he was recognized by Manitobans in general , as a man of integrity.

He was a tireless worker, certainly from all that I recall and heard about him, and, as well, had served his constituents and Manitobans throughout his lifetime of public duty to the utmost at all times , in a very unselfish and untiring manner . MR. ACTING DEPUTY SPEAKER, C. Baker: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition . MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Acting Speaker . I am pleased to rise on behalf of my colleagues in the Progressive Conservative Caucus in support of the Motion of Condolence for Gurney Evans. Although I did not serve with Mr.

Evans in this Legislature, I certainly met him on many occasions at public events. I recall having chatted with him a number of times when I attended the Conservative Club monthly meetings; many times at public dinners and banquets. I was impressed and struck by the fact that at all times he seemed such a gentleman.

He certainly had a dignified bearing; he was quiet spoken but certainly a man of great intelligence and I know from those who worked with him in a wide variet y of public endeavours. whether they be in the Legislature, or in so many of the committees, commissions and public bodies that he served, they felt that he was a man of great integrity. At his funeral, Senator Roblin, in the eulogy, mentioned all of these traits and characteristics, spoke of his great commitment to serve the people of th is province .

He was certainly an individual who had many family responsib ilities, who had a very successful business and professional career, and yet he was always willing to set aside those things to make a commitment of service to the people of this province; firstly and foremost, of course , in his lengthy military service , his dist ingui shed military service that the Premier has spoken of; later, of course , 16 years in this Legislative Assembly , 11 of it in Cabinet.

The information that I have certainly lists the many, many responsibilities that he was given in all of those years of public service : in the Legislature as Minister of Industry and Commerce; as Minister of Mines and Natural Resources ; as Provincial Secretary ; and as Finance Minister. Those were major commitments that he made in his service here in the Legislature .

Before that and after, of course, in life outside of the political arena, he served again in so many capacities : as Executive Director of the Shaw - Carswell Commission ; as Chairman of the Manitoba Civil Service Commission ; as a member of the Boards of Governors of the University of Manitoba and Ridley College , as executive director of the Red River Valley Board, on the board of the Canadian Corps of Commissionaires, the Manitoba Hospital Services Association, the Winnipeg Welfare Council as vice-chairman, former president of the English Speaking Union of Winnipeg , and chairman of the Winnipeg Schools' Orchestra.

He was, of course , both a businessman and at one time a partner in Woods Gordon . In all of these endeavors, he was a loyal and dedicated participant in all of his responsib lities ; certainly a person who was known for his hard work and his commitment to the responsibilities that he undertook . I had the pleasure of conferr ing on Mr. Evans an Honourary Life Membership in the Progressive Conservative Party of Manitoba just last year. Certainly, I can say that he was held in the highest esteem not only by members of our party but by all of those who knew him .

I'm honoured to join in support of this motion on behalf of all of my colleagues , and extend to all the members of Mr. Evans ' family and his wide circle of frie nds the sincere sympathies of all of us, and certainly the gratitude that we must express for the years of commitment that he made not only as a public servant in this Legislature but for all of the valuable services that he rendered in so many other ways to this province, his beloved province of Manitoba . 1841 MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakes ide . MR. H. ENNS: Thank you Madam Speaker.

Very briefly, I, too , would like to add a few comments in support of the Condolence Motion currently before us with respect to a man that I admired greatly - Mr. Gurney Evans. As the Prem ier indicated, it was my privilege to have served in Caucus and Cabinet with Mr. Evans. For me, it was a particularely enlightening experience. I was newly elected in 1966. At that time, Mr. Evans was the Minister of Finance for the province and as such , the chairman of the Treasury Board . Mr.

Roblin chose to place me on that board, which then, as now , continues to be one of the more active boards in government service - a very prized board for a new member to serve on in the sense that it immediately gives him an opportunity to see how government works and to have an understanding of all government departments . Mr. Evans presided over that Treasury

Friday, 8 May, 1987 Board that I was a member of in the years 1966 to 1969 and I subsequently got to know Mr. Evans much better than I perhaps otherwise would have as a new member. It's one of those privileges, I think, that persons like myself have, to be able to say publicly, that comes to us, that experience of public life from time to time, to be able to say of a person like Mr.

Evans , yes, it was my privilege to have served with a man who served this province and his people with such distinction in peace and at war; a man who carried himself with the kind of dignity that I think more of us should reflect upon as we continue our debates in this Chamber . It was a privilege to have known Mr. Gurney Evans. My sympathies to Lillian and family , knowing that they have the knowledge that their late husband and father served the people of Manitoba well. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Madam Speaker .

I take but a moment to as well join my leader and colleagues and the Premier in extending sincere sympathy to the Evans family. As Member for Arthur, I think it's important to note that Gurney Evans and Mrs. Evans , Lillian, came from the town of Melita, which is right in the centre of Arthur and, as well, I believe from a small town or what was a small town, Broomhill.

So I feel somewhat of a special need to extend condolences to the family of Gurney Evans and particularly to his wife, to let her know that the people of Arthur have been very much thoughtful and they are thinking of her and her family in times such as this. I am sure that the pride that each Member of Arthur had, whether it was through the family connection or his services , should be put on the record . I am pleased to do so and those thoughts of condolence, Madam Speaker, would like them passed on to the family of Gurney Evans . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services. HON. M.

SMITH: Madam Speaker , I'd just like to add a few personal words in tribute to Mr. Gurney Evans . Again, my knowledge of him was not one that was in the Legislature or that stemmed from much personal contact. I knew him more through a branch of the family that lived in Vancouver. In fact, I knew his niece and sister and brother-in-law very well and it was through many of their stories of life in Winnipeg that I had my first introduction to Manitoba and Winnipeg long before I came to live here. When I did settle here, and of course was aware of much of the public work of Mr.

Evans, I seem to recall particularly the initiatives that he, along with other members of the Conservative Party, took in the early Sixties to review the economic development potential of Manitoba and explore a strategy . I know when I first entered the Economic Development portfolio, some of that early work and the analysis and the vision were extremely helpful as a basis to us. Again , he did represent Fort Rouge and I think lived in the Crescentwood area, an area near which I live.

I always heard him spoken of with great respect, regardless of peoples' personal political affiliation, because he did have a great personal distinction and I think served the Province of Manitoba extremely well. I would like to add a personal note of condolence to his widow , his child ren and grandchildren, and to the relatives that I had personal contact with on the west coast. MADAM SPEAKER: To indicate support for the motion , would the members please rise for a moment of silence. (A moment of silence was observed.) MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Elmwood: THAT this House convey to the family of the late Russell John Doern , who served as a member of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba, its sincere sympathy in their bereavement , its appreciation of his devot ion to duty, useful life of active community and public service , and that Madam Speaker be requested to forward a copy of this resolution to the family . MOTION presented. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, it was in February of this year that I know all honourable members were shocked to hear of the tragic death of Russell Doern. Russ was , of course, well known by us all in this Chamber or most of us in this Chamber, having served in the Chamber since 1966 - he had been a member already for three years when I was elected in 1969 - having served a total of 20 years in this Chamber , the people of the constituency of Elmwood . He was, we know, Madam Speaker , born in Winnipeg and educated at Isaac Newton High School.

I first met Russell Doern, in fact , at United College , and he was very involved in politics even at the mock parliament level, at the university level at United College which at that time , graduates from the old United College will know , was a real centre of political debate and discussion, particularly during the period of the late 1950's and early 1960's when Russ was a student at United College. He certainly served in all the debating and the mock parliament activities at United College during that time. He also attended the University of Manitoba.

He was a notable Manitoba athlete as well, as a youth , having won two second-place ribbons at the Junior Canadian Track and Field Championship in 1955. Russ became a teacher of history and English, working at high schools in Emerson and Stonewall. He taught at Stonewall , in fact , for two years. The Honourable Member for Lakeside may very well recall this time that Russ Doern served as teacher at the regional high school , I believe it was, in Stonewall at that time . He also served as a teacher in Winnipeg later.

As a member of this Assembly , Russ served as a Cabinet Minister for seven years , and was later to write a book about his experience which is, of course, 1842

Friday, 8 May, 1987 commonly known as " Wednesdays are Cabinet Days ." He wrote another book related to bilingualism and the bilingualism debate of 1984 that took place in the Province of Manitoba . That was an issue on which Russ Doern chose to leave this party, as we know, and to sit as an independent member of the Chamber. Russ Doern also served as Deputy Speaker of the House and was on the board of the Manitoba Centennial Corporation and the Manitoba Telephone System .

He was also associated with the Manitoba Theatre Centre, the Winnipeg Art Galle ry, the Historic and Scientific Society of Mani toba , the Canadian Association of Occupational Therapists , and the Canadian UNICEF Committee . Russ hosted a local public affairs television program during the last year or two of his life , and he wrote columns for a number of rural weeklies throughout the Province of Manitoba . Russ was well known for his strong convictions , and particularly his convictions in respect to his par ticu lar view.

Though we obviously had our differences, I respected his conviction in regard to the position that he did take as having been, in his view, the right position. We all respected his diligence, his passion , in fact, for politics. I can recall, in fact, back in 1979 when the Honourable Minister of Community Services and Russ Doern and I all sought the leadership of the New Democratic Party together. We attended many joint meetings throughout the province, generally travelling together and staying in the same hotel and debating .

I certainly sensed on Russ 's part a very deep commitment and a very deep love for politics . The skill of politics was paramount on his part. A few weeks ago, I had a visit from Russ 's former spouse, Pat, and during the course of that discussion I was informed of the very close relationship , as we all know, which existed between Russ's daughter , Rachel, and himself and his all-abiding love for Rachel, and the fact that Rachel will , I know in the years that lie ahead, remember her father with deep respect for the strong conviction that he represented in his thoughts.

So I would like to , Madam Speaker , extend particularly to Russ's daughter Rachel, as well as his father who still lives in the City of Winnipeg and other members of his family, my sincere condolences . The father and son certainly made a major impact on the life of this province, and will be missed by many thousands of Manitobans who had the opportunity to come in contact with Russ during his time of service in politics and in this Chamber . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood . MR. J. MALOWAY: Thank you , Madam Speaker .

As the Premier indicated, we were all shocked and stunned to hear of Russ 's death. I personally knew Russ since approx imately 1973. I didn't know him that well, but it was a social acq uaintance and I really did appreciate his wit. That was something that took some time to apprec iate but, once appreciated, was particularly intere sting. Russ, of cours e, was well known to people in the province . His passing , of course, was trag ic, and I suppose the suddeness of it all was the most devastating part at only 52 years of age.

A death , I suppose, is easier to take if a person is much older and perhaps suffering from diseases but, when a death is as sudden as that, an accidental death, it takes everyone with a certain amount of shock . We had certainly disagreement on ideas and process , but we never really had any personal disagreement s during our time . As a matter of fact, I was his house insurance agent and Autopac agent when he lived on Harbison Avenue and, in fact, my company continued to handle his business up until his death. So, he never took our personal relationship in any bad way.

It was purely a political disagreement that we would have had . Disagreements are very healthy in the democratic society, and that was certainly understandable that he would have different views and exercise those views . I had known again Russ for years. He was very friendly . Never a nasty word passed between us. Our hearts go out especially to the family and to his daughter Rachel. MADA M SPEAKER: The Honourable Membe r for River Heights . MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I'd like to express my own condol ences , as well as that of my par ty.

I have known Russ for the last four or five years, and I have to say honestly that I don 't think I eve r agreed with him on anything, and particularl y, I did not agree with him on his handling of the French language issue. But I always liked him, and the re is often a difference between the two that has to be clearly differentiated . I always admired his tenacity but , much more importantly I admired his relationship with Rache l. My daughter, Jenny, and Rachel were schoolmates together at St. Mary's Academy , as was the daughter, I might add, of the Member for St. Norbert.

It was always a joy to watch Russell at parent-teacher meetings, because he took such pride in th is young woman. I think that it is very import ant she understands that not only did she know that her fath er loved her, but lots of other people knew that her father loved her and cared for her very, very much. It will be very difficult for her in an adjustment period over the next year or two, but the love , there is no doubt. Therefore , our sincerest condolenc es to Rachel, and our sincerest belief that, if she needs our help , we will be there for her. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance . HON. E.

KOSTYRA: Thank you, Madam Speaker . I would like to rise to support this motion and say a few words about Russ in his memory. Russ grew up in the north end of Winnipeg , an area that I've lived in most of my life . In fact, he grew up on the same street that I grew up on though, being some years older than me, we didn't meet at our early ages on the street of McKenzie, which is an area well known to the Leader of the Opposition , because we come from the same general area of the North End. I first met Russ Doern in 1969, when I had the opportunity to work with Russ on a committe e of 100 1843

Friday, 8 May, 1987 that was formed in the spring of that year to convince Ed Schreyer to come back to Manitoba from the House of Commons in Ottawa to lead our party at the time of the provincial election in June of that year.

Of course, that endeavour that Russ was leading at that time was not only successful in terms of convincing Ed Schreye r to come back and to lead our party, but it was also successful in terms of what has taken place in the elections at that time and subsequent where, because of that factor and others, our party first came into government and has, in the succeeding elections, continued to govern for most of the ensuing years. At that time or shortly after that, I think Russ met one of his first major disappointments, because he had been a member of the Legislature at that time.

He had been very supportive of our then-leader, the Premier at that time, Ed Schreyer, and was disappointed when he wasn't named to the Cabinet at that point in time. We all know, since that point, that Russ has felt other disappointments in terms of his political career , in terms of where he I guess , wanted to be be in terms of governments .

Russ did have a sense of dealing with issues that affected the little guy and had a unique sense of what was of concern to the public and, in many ways, he never forgot or lost touch with the very roots that he started with in the north end of Winnipeg, on McKenzie Street , and I would just, as one who on many occasions was a subject in later years of Russ's sharper attacks .

I'd like to say that, although we disagreed on a number of issues, some fundamental issues, that I still had respect for him as an individual in terms of his effort on behalf of those things that he believed in, and I'd like to join in providing my condolences to his family. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Madam Speaker . I rise , on behalf of my colleagues in the Legislature , in the Opposition Caucus of the Legislature, to join in support of the motion of condolence for Russell Doern.

It's a difficult task I think for all of us because he was known personally to virtually everybody in this Chamber, and indeed , probably more than two-thirds of us had the privilege of serving in the Legislature with Russ. I know that it was difficult, as well, for all of us because of the suddenness and the method by which his life ended .

A number of my colleagues were in Swan River the morning we learned of it and when Janice phoned to say that Bill Hutton had called and given us that news, certainly we were shocked and we were in disbelief as we sat around and tried to fathom the rationale for it, the reasons and everything else . It is indeed difficult for all of us to be able to relate to and to face and to be able to talk about , because Russ had always been such a positive and confident person . Some might use less complimentary adjectives , but he certainly was always positive and confident about everything .

I had lunch with him the week before Christmas with two mutual relatives, something that we did occasio nally because of a long-time association . At that time, he was talking about some new endeavours that involved a radio program, some more writing. He was giving me, as he always did, advice on the political scene , analyzing everything at each level of government and passing his ready comments and opinions on it. I recall that he was cons tantly sending notes across the Chamber.

You could always know that nine times out of ten , if you got a message passed to you by a Page, it was likely from Russ with a particular comment. In my case, and I'm not sure if he did this for others , he'd always evaluate everything I did . Out of ten , you got seven out of ten on that speech; or on that question , six out of ten, and he would inevitably either call or send a message, drop a note. Everytime I was on Provincial Affairs , he must have been the only person in Manitoba who watched every single Provincial Affairs program. I always got graded out of ten on every performance .

I didn 't get ten ever, but he said I was getting close in latter days . Many of you may not know that Russ and I were related by marriage . My mother's sister married his father's brother, so we had a mutual Aunt and Uncle , Otto and Marion Doern . As a consequence , I remember him from very young days in north Winnipeg , getting together at family gatherings. He was always an interesting and fascinating person , believe me. He had some unusual interests, and I'm not just speaking of the New Democratic Pa,ty in that.

I recall very vividly one Christmas gathering at Otto and Marion's house at which Russ came in and I might have been 10 or 11 and Russ, I think, was seven years older than me - maybe I was 12 - and Russ had learned about hypnotism . He took all of the younger cousins into a room and decided to hypnotize us. I didn't fall for it; some , I think, went along with the gag . Russ always came up with something different every time . I'm not sure if he was trying to get me to accept his political beliefs, under hypnotis m, but I can tell you it didn 't work, Madam Speaker . He certainly had multi-faceted interests .

The fact that he really had a genuine interest in and a good deal of talent in sports , the fact that he did indeed achieve provincial record status in track and field and participated actively in many athletic endeavours , .was something that probably wasn't known because he was so well known for his 20 years of service in the Legislature .

The fact that he was genuinely a very committed and well known and well appreciated supporter of the arts community; today we continue on with his policy of allocating a certain portion of the Capital cost of government construction to the purchase of works of art, something that I know continues to be appreciated .

I appreciated it when I became a Minister of the Crown and was offered the opportunity to go into the storage room and select beautiful works of art, a couple of Jackson Beardy 's, one an origina l water colour, a Norval Morrisseau , a Tony Tascona , and all these things to put on the walls of my ministerial office , because of a policy developed by Russ to support art , and particularly Manitoba art. 1844 I know that Tony Tascona - we sat togethe r at a luncheon once and Tony said that Russ did a great deal for the Manitoba arts community and continued , until his death , to be an active supporter, attending virtually every opening of a ballet or a symphony or MTC, Rainbow Stage ; at all of those events, you would

Friday, 8 May, 1987 always see Russ. So it was certainly a genuine commitment that he had and that he carried through and tha t he, I think, made a lasting contribution in this Legislature for. Of course , many will remember the other more humorous areas and aspects of his political life: the " Broadway Biffy" dispute. The day after his passing , CBC played an interview - I believe it was between Peter Gzowski and Steve Juba - in which Steve took great umbrage, in the colorful language that only he could, with Russ, and talked about putting up a sign that this was his office and so on - fascinating and funny.

The controversy over the Woodsworth Building having , I think, been dubbed the ugl iest piece of architecture in Winnipeg , and Russ defending it. All of that sort of thing. Those are things that we regard now, I think, more with humour and appreciation for his streak of independence and his absolute commitment to doing it his way. I suppose Frank Sinatra 's song would have been appropriate .

As well as being a regular viewer of prov incial affairs, Russ was probably the most regular attendee, of those of us who are in public life, at "Beer and Skits ." I don't think he often missed " Beer and Skits ." As I understand it, he certainly used to tell me that he directed - he was the self-appointed director of the NDP caucus 's "Beer and Skits" that they used to put on for members of the press .

He talked about having one gathering, I believe, in the backyard of Saul Cherniack 's home, and another in the Premier's back yard where he put on these skits.- (Interjection)- He certainly did have some talent at that and he carried on his interest in the arts in a personal sense, not only through his own writing s but through his performances at some of these endeavors, as I understand it, because he'd always tell me that these were his best lines and that these were the things that had created the greatest response fro m the media when they were put on. Certainly he will be remembered well for many thing s.

Obviously 20 years of service in this Legislature is a commitment that few of us will have the opportu nity to make to our province and he certainly sho uld be well remembered and well thought of and certainly extended our gratitude for that service, the six years as a Cabinet Minister. He'll be remembered , despite differences of opinion , whichever side of the issue you were, for his unwavering and unflinching position on the language issue against, I'm sure, tremendous pressure from his colleagues, from those around him.

He made his decision and he stuck with it and certainly received not only plaudits but certainly many brickbats from many quarters over that but he stayed the course. I think that demonstrated a toughness that many had not appreciated about him. He certainly was a character . We will remember him well for all of these things and we'll remember him happily for the humour that he brought to daily life whether it be through the notes or the comments that he made, we will remember him well as a colleague, we will remember him well as a friend.

His tragic passing , I think, left many of us in a position of doing some soul-searching about the pressures that all of us put ourselves under in public life , pressures that, I think, are not always appreciated . The comments that are sometimes made off the cuff , across this 1845 Chamber, in the media, the editorial comments that sink deep into the hearts and souls of all of us that we can laugh off or reject out of hand , leave their scars and take their toll on all of us.

The goldfish bowl in which we all live , the way in which we respond to the disappointments, to the setbacks, to all of those things I think all came to mind with Russ's passi ng. Certainly the void that was left in his life when he left this Legislature gives us all an obliga tion and a responsibility to plan for the day in which we won't be here and the manner in which we'll have to respond to that major change in our lives.

I think to some extent, maybe his passing brought to public attention in a positive way the fact that the publi c should try and unders tand a little more the pressures that all of us live under in the life that we've chosen and in the manner in which we've chosen to serve our province in this Legislature .

Madam Speake r, I, with those words , certainly join in extending sincere condolences and sympathies to Russ's daughter Rache l, to his father Karl , to all of the family and friends that he's left behind and to offer thanks for all of the many services that he rendered to his beloved province, to our Manitoba. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Thank you Madam Spea ker. I would like to join with previous speakers in extending condolences to Karl and Mary and Rachel - his daughter of whom he spoke so often to his fellow MLA 's.

I fir st heard of Russ Doern sho rtl y after the 1966 elect ion when he became an MLA ; one of the 10 or 11 from the NDP who were still then a third party, and he was very much a part of the reason why we formed government in 1969. He was one of those young people who worked very diligently, very hard in the Legislature, and over his years in the Legislature was prepared frequently to work on difficult issues - issues that weren't popular at the time.

His strong positions against the boycotts of the Olympics - and it was always so easy at the time to think of a reason to boycott an Olympic series that was in the camp of the other people. He always strongly took the position that you keep politics out of it, regardless of what the sentiment was in the province at the time. He was again on the minority side, I would say, when he chose to invite one of the Beatles to Manitoba when he was on a campaign of "Give Peace a Chance ." That wasn 't a popular issue but he took it because he believed it was right.

Of course there were the lighter moments, and I think those are the ones that I will remember about Russ. The Member for River Heights said that she always enjoyed hearing Russ talk , and , quite frankly , I enjo yed hearing Russ talk far more when he was with us tha n when he was against us. I am sure that people on the other side will reca ll some of Russ's hi-jinks when we were on that side.

I recall one day he snuck a paintbrush, a cigar, and a can of red paint into the Legislature and the Speaker was sort of not paying too much attention, and he got into his conservative campaign speech, where he was saying that they would start off by blowing smok e all over the place so you couldn 't see what the issues

Friday, 8 May, 1987 were, and if that didn't work , they'd pull out the red paint and the paintbrush - and at that stage he was cut off . He used to do an analysis of who was running ahead in the leadership race. It was a horse race, and he had handicaps, he had large numbers of reasons why somebody had become a dark horse, and a quarter horse, and whatever it was . It was enjoyable when you were with him. Going back to the '66 to '69 period, he was writing a column in the Winnipeg Tribune.

He was an MLA and I think there was a recognition at that time , maybe that side of the news was frequently missing , and sometimes one would like to see something like that in those days . He did a good job there . I didn't really get to know Russ until the late 1970's, although as the Leader of the Opposition has indicated, when you did something , regardless whether it was good , bad or indifferent , you tended to get a grading from him because of, I suppose , his educational background .

His first note to me came in 1972, when I had won a nomination for a by-election in Wolseley and he sent a note indicating - he didn 't give me a grading . He said I'd done a good job, according to what he had read in the press . In 1979 he was involved in my by-election campaign in Rossmere and he was a help , as well, to me as a rookie member of the Legislature. Occas ionally , we drove down to the Legi slat ure together and in those times , he would discuss strategy . He had an interesting perspective on politics and life .

I recall one day - this was when the previous government had put the restaurants out to tender and , in Russ 's opinion, the wrong operator had won the lease at the Woodsworth Building - so he asked me to join him at the Woodsworth Building for one last lunch there with that operator who used to have crowds of people coming in from all over the city. It was an effect ive method of demonstrating to people out there where he stood on the issue . Russ occasionally, in the latter years, had strong differences with us, and when he had those differences he expre ssed them quite concisely .

One of the last things, in the last six months , that he accomplished was probably to achieve a larger proportion of the Winnipeg vote than any other man or woman in Winnipeg would have achieved against the current mayor , given the time Russ entered into that race. I think he did a very good job of that . I think over his years in public life , he made a contribution, be it in terms of the arts referred to, be it in terms of his service as a Cabinet Minister, or be it as a critic. He will be remembered. I again extend my condolences to his family . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Burrows. MR. C.

SANTOS: Thank you, Madam Speak er. I have always been an admirer of a person whose life is in politics , so to speak - there is politics in his blood - and if there is such a person , it was Russell Doern. I first had the opportunity to know Russell when I first came to Winnipeg and started teaching at the university . He was one of my early students. There was an incident that has stuck in my mind up to this day. We were at a seminar and we were discussing some very esoteric ideas about politics.

Then suddenly , out of the blue , he said , " Professor Santos, why don't you run as a Native in the Nort h?" I was stunned, but it left something in my subconscious mind that I have an identity with the oppressed minority and that there might be some opportunity sometim e to run for public office. It had stuck until it resurfaced again in 1981 when I got elected to public office. Russell was a good fathe r, a loving father . I don 't know, with his busy political life, how much time he could devote to his family but he was a good person. If anyth ing is shown by his life, it is a dedication to public life.

He was able to bear the stress of it for awhile, but suddenly he had to put an end to it. If anything is shown , it is the fact that it is relatively easy to die , but it is very diffic ult to live. Yet I admire the person . "He is the person who has a great sense of humour . He can smile in the midst of trouble and can gather strength from distress . He grows brave by reflection. His heart is firm, his conscience approves his conduct , and he pursues his princ iple until the time of his death." Thank you. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Thompson. MR. S. ASHTON: Thank you, Madam Speaker .

I first really came to know Russell Doern as a new member of the Legislature . I remember his advice and assistanc e. In fact, for many years we shared the same office area . I will always remember him from his initial comments. He was one of the first member s, actually one of the first veteran members, to welcome me to the caucus. I remember him as a colleague , a very helpful colleague, and someone who did give me valuable advice and assistanc e. Like other members , I will also never forget his sense of humour.

I found out quite early on of Russ Doern 's propensity for humour when , as the Whip , and ~long with the now-Minister of the Environment who was then caucus chair, I was told that one of the requirement s of being Whip for the NOP caucus was that I had to partic ipate in the skit that the Leader of the Opposition referred to at our annual caucus party with members of the press . I wasn 't told what role I would play, and neither was the Minister of the Environment , but we dutifully , as new members, volunteered to play our part.

We soon found out that we had to play a horse and Russ Doern suitably provided a horse suit. I don't think it would be appropriate if I indicated which part of the horse I had to play at that event , but nonetheless, it turned out to be a great success and a very memorable event , something that I will always remember , and as other members have indicated , his sense of humour was certainly something that was clear . I also remember Russ as someone who for a number of years was not a colleague , and what I was struck by was the fact that essentially the contact that I had with him remained the same .

We were still on civil terms and still on friendly terms . I remember debating him 1846

Friday, 8 May, 1987 at the Kildonan East Secondary School and despite the fact that we were on opposite sides of the issue at that time, we were still on very friendly and civil terms. This continued , too, in regard to another area that other members have mentioned - his love for his daughter. I have a daughter, a four year-old daughter Nicki, and every time she visited me, Russ would comment on his own daughter and his love for his daughter Rachel. I was struck at that time by just the strength and the amount of love he had for his daughter.

There is only one word to describe his death, I think, and that is that it was a tragedy , because , as members have pointed out, he had been so active in public life, he had achieved so many of the things that so many others would only dream of and yet, at the age of 52 , he still had so much more to do, and that's the only word , I think, that one could use to describe his passing .

I think if there 's one thing we should reflect on in his passing, I think it is in that spirit that Russ approached his poli ti cal life - that openness to individuals regardless of their political beliefs or their position on a particular issue . I think we should all reflect on that, and I think it is something that we, as members of the Legislature, sometimes do forget in the heat of arguments over particular issues or political differences, and that is the fact that we all have something in common, and that is public service.

At times that is not an easy burden to bear because in some ways it can be a burden, given the responsibilities that are placed on us by members of the public, and I know in Russ's case it bore heavy on him and I suspec t that much of the background to what did happen in the end was part of that burden. I do know that he was very sensitive, too.

That may sound strange to those who did not know him, because given the humour and given the type of way in which he approached his political life, one would never have thought of Russ Doern as being sensitive to some of the criticism , and yes, some of the persona l comments that are often made in the heat of political debat e. I think it's something we can all reflect on and all perhaps try to learn from, and that is to respect the fact that we're all involved in public life, and despite our differences, we all essentially have the same goals - the same goals of improving this province of ours.

Certainly, that was Russ Doern ; and as much as I may have disagreed with him sometimes and agreed with him at others , I recognize that fact. So I think if we do reflect on Russ's life, we should reflect two key things: one was that unique character that he had; and second of all, his commitment to public service, that long career in the Legislature, and when we pay tribut e today , perhaps learn a few lessons from that. Thank you, Madam Speaker . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Thank you, Madam Speaker .

Madam Speaker, much has already been said to the memory of one Russell Doern. I simply want to add a few words that assoc iate my name with his tragic death and his memory in this Condolence Motion before us. Madam Speaker, it would be idle to specu late on the reasons for Mr. Doern 's choice of leaving us in the manner and way in which he did , but it's my belief that Russell Doern , above all other things , loved this Chamber , and the fact that in the election of March 1986, that right was denied to him by the electorate did in fact contr ibut e to his untimely death . Russell Doern always loved this Chamber.

He and I came into this Chamber in the same election in 1966 , and in the latter years , he was probably more responsible than any other mem ber to rem ind that " Class of '66," as he used to call them, and indeed to even host social functions from time to time . The last few years , there were about five of us remaining: Mr. Sam Uskiw, Mr. Wally McKenzie from our side , Mr. Russell Doern , Mr. Peter Fox and myself.

He would often host just a brief luncheon at the Fort Garry Hotel as the last members of the "Class of '66." So, Madam Spea ker, it's in that spirit tha t I join my leader, those of my group , and tho se comments tha t have already been put on the record, in expressing my condol ences to the Ru ssell Doern family and , in parti cular, to his daught er. MADAM SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Inkster. MR. D. SCOTT: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mad am Spe ake r, back on, I believe it was February 20, when we hear d the radio report and shocking news of Russ 's sud den death, I think we, as members of this House and as a general society , witnessed somewhat of a pub lic tragedy . He was a man , Russell Doern, who lived an intensely person al life and yet an incredibly public life . He lived and died publicly . He had a yearning for public life, for an input into policy process, into strategies , as was mentioned earlier, and into the profile that public life gave him.

He started off , I guess, and often related with a great deal of good humour and almost reminiscing good feelings you could see that he had about his days at United College and the debates that they had there with the former Premier, Sterling Lyon, the present Premier of the province and so many others who went on in later life to become major figures in public life in Manitoba . He became the president of his chosen political party, the NDP, back, I believe it was in 1969.

He certainly enjoyed and loved the opportunity to recall the time that he served the Province of Manitoba in the Provincial Cabinet of his friend and former colleague, Ed Schreyer. He, at the same time, always found in this House some humour . I can remember when the members of the Oppos iti on were choosing a new leader for their party and Russ - I am not sure on what occasion he rose in the House and gave his little speech -(Interjection)- was it the Throne Speech? - and gave his speech, and his

summary of the candidates as participants in a horse race. Certainly, he put a lot of time and effort into thinking up ideas that could be seen as somewhat innocent , and yet poking good fun at not only himself but other members of the House. And it's his sense of good humour - I hardly ever had any conversations with him privately and even, 1847

Friday, 8 May, 1987 alongside in the House here, he seldom gave more than a few sentences without some sort of remark that would lend his sense of humour. His life, I suppose, represented the highs and lows of political life. He found towards the end of his career - and I think it is something we all have to consider in public life, regardless of which side of the House one sits on or which political party - that political friendships , when great differences arise, can dissipat e very quickly.

He saw and I think felt very greatly the lack or the losing of a lot of long-term friendships that he had built up over the years . Yet, still on a personal level, he never seemed to hold any kind of great grudges against individuals and would engage anybody at all in a wee chatter in the halls of the Legislature or in the streets or at a theatre . Wherever one would bump into him, Russ always had some form of a friendly comment to say to people.

His life I think, in these times, deserves for all of us to pay some bit of attention to that , to recognize the pressures of public life, the pressures that come not just from your colleagues and members opposite in this Chamber, but also from the press , the type of ridicule and praise that one can get. He, I think , was a reflection of the despair that some people have at least when they leave public life .

They get used to living in this fish bowl, if you wish, and have a very difficult time going back into becoming an ordinary citizen again without the perks and the privilege that goes along with being a member of an elected Assembly . His death , I don't believe was a concern simply to ourselves but to all society, and the reflection that it has upon society's system of government and the pressures that we put upon people. I persona lly still find it very hard to understand his death .

It's hard for me to see someone who had run as successfully as he did for Mayor last year - nobody, I don't believe the pundits certainly expected him to do anywhere near as well as he did, and he probably had one of the most successful challenges in recent times in the City of Winnipeg for someone challenging an incumbent Mayor. I can 't recall anyone doing anywhere nearly as well as he had done last year in that campaign. And yet, the despair still overtook him . His daughter, Rachel, he spoke of with great love . He spoke frequently of her.

Whenever he brought her to the House, he would always introduce you to her, her to the various members of the House so that she would get to know some of the people here, I think to gain a little bit of understanding of what her dad did and why he had such a commitment to public life and to meet some of the other characters, if I could call us that, in this House who participate in this public life. He certainly lived in many ways for his daughter , and I feel very sad that she has lost her father.

At the same time, I would like to express my deepest condolences to Rachel and to his father, Karl, who had a very difficult time accepting his son's passing . I think that all of us members of the Legislatur e should lend assistance , if necessary, to the family in times future if it is requested upon us. Thank you, kindly . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour . HON. A. MACKLING: Madam Speaker, I want to personally join in the very eloquent tr ibutes that colleagues have given to the memory of our late colleague , Russ Doern.

I join in my recollection of Russ as someone who thought his way into politics. He was a democratic socialist when it wasn 't popu lar to be recognized as a socialist in society . He was dedicat ed to the task that a politician must be active and see to it that change does occur in society where there is a greater fairness and a greater measure of equality for everyone.

I recall his positive contribution not only in the party prior to our being elected in 1969 , but in the joining and the debating and the common will that we had in '69 with that very slender majority in this House , and proceeded with legislation for which we were all proud. I recall the humour of Russ, the flair for the dramatic and his excellence in debate . I will recall Russ not only for those attributes but an attitude towards life that he appreciated beauty, not only in people but in life . He didn't look on the dark side; he looked on the positive side.

So much more is his tragic demis e that much more startling to us. I think Russ would have enjoyed the symbolism at the closing of the New Democratic Party Convention in Montreal, when there was a presentat ion of both bread and roses to the incoming president and our leader , because Russ did fight for bread for common people. As has been so eloquently said by others in the Chamber , he had an appreciation for values for little people , for the average people in society. But also he had an appreciation for beauty and joy and life, and that has been remarked upon in this Chamber.

And the roses the democratic socialists fight for as well as bread were very much a symbol for Russ. It is with those recollections of his love of life, love of this Chamber and dedication to reform that I shall remember Russ. I join in the tributes to him , and the best of wishes for his family. MADAM SPEAKER: To indicate support for the motion , would the members please rise for a moment of silence . (A moment of silence was observed.) MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, I beg to move , seconded by the Honourable Member for Transcona: THAT this House convey to the family of the late Harry Shafransky, who served as a Member of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba, its sincere sympathy in their bereavement, its appreciation of his devotion to duty, useful life of active community and public service; and that Madam Speaker be requested to forward a copy of this resolution to the family. MOTION presented. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister . HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, it was with a great deal of sadness when word did come to us of the very sudden death of Harry Shafransky . Harry, as we know in this Chamber , was born in Poland and came to 1848

Friday, 8 May, 1987 Manitoba at a v ery early age . In fact, he was raised on a farm up near Roblin , Manitoba and received his primary school education and his high school education in Roblin , as well as in Winnipeg . Harry later taught school and, in fact, graduated fro m the Manitoba Teachers ' College - that's the college that was called the old Norma l School at that time - in 1952. He taught school in British Columbia and later at General Wolfe School right here in Win nipeg .

He was an organ izer and president of the Northern British Columbia Indian Teachers ' Association and he later served , as well , with the Manitoba Teacher s' Society . Harry was firs t elected to thi s Chamb er in 1969, rep resent ing the constituency of Radiss on, and ser ved until 1977 when Harry was defeated , I believe , by the presen t Honourable Member for Niakwa . Harry serv ed for eight years. We all remember how tough Harry Shafransky was as Whip during tha t period of tim e he wa s the Whip , alo ng with the former Honou ra bl e Member for Gladstone , Ferguson .

I remember how well really the two of them did get along as they woul d meet back and forth and huddle, Harry and Ferguso n, fr om day to day. In fact , that friendship carried over to the fact that Ferguson was one of the honora ry pallbearer s at Harry 's funeral last year. Harry appea red to be gruff with a gruff exterior, but underneath he was extremely sensitive and very, very caring , a very committed and very dedicated democratic socialist all his life. He was proud of the fact that he was asked to serve the people of Manitoba. I remember Harry also could be very stubborn .

I don 't know whether honourable members recall , I think it was 1977, the final morning of that Session . It was Speed -up, and it was about 4:30 in the morning and everybody wanted to wrap things up and get hom e and call things qui ts. Harry had this very detailed speech that he had wanted to give all Session on constitutional reform, as I recall it. It was about 20 or 25 pages . Here we are, we're all anx ious to get out of the Hous e and get on our way home . I think the sun was just comi ng up. Harry got up and started to read thi s speech that he had been waiting to give for weeks and week s.

Part way through the speech, the then Premier sugge sted that he might wish to table it. Harry didn 't take very kindly to that and carried on with the reading of his speech . I think we got out of here about 5:30 a.m., after Harry completed his speech - but that was Harry . He was committed to give that speech . It was a w ell­ thought -through, well-prepa red speech and he just hadn't been able to get an oppor tunit y to deliver it; he was going to give it, and he did give it.

I can remember anothe r situation and I think the Honourable Member for Transcon a has been a party to one of these wild beast , wild -fowl dinners . Now I must admit Madam Speaker , I am inclined to be - tend to be more of a v egetarian and Harry came out on a Sunday afternoon to Selkirk to see me at about 1:30, insisting , in fact dem anding , that I go to this dinn er. Of course I pulled every excus e ou t of the book to attempt to avoid going to this dinner.

The Honourab le Member for Transc on a, I think Sam Uskiw was goi ng to be there -(Inter jectio n)- and Gira rd was there , Gabe Girard, a former member of the Opposi tion . Harry was gruf f but so likeable and so very comm itted to everything that he did . He lived to the fullest , he 1849 played to the fullest, he expressed himself very, very strongly . Just prior to his death - Harry was very proud of his culture - and he brought out to my house a book which he gave me, the "Kobzar of the Ukraine " - the Poetry of the Ukraine . There is a Forward that is written on the book by Harry Shafransky.

He was very proud of this book and he put th is tog ether sho rtly before his death . I would just like to read a coup le of parag raphs from the final poem in the book that was put together by Harry, call ed " My Testament.

" " Standing then about my grave Make ye haste your fett ers tear Sprinkled with the foeman 's blood Then shall rise your freedom s fair Then shall spring a kinsh ip great This a f amily new and free Someti mes in your glor ious state Gently, kindly speak of m e Gently, kindly , s peak of me." I kn ow t hat all mem bers and Manitobans that had an opportu nity to work w ith H arry, to meet with Harry in th is Chamber and in caucus to discu ss i ssues with Har ry, rec all his commitment to everything that he felt so stro ngly about whet her it was the Ukra inian cultu re, whethe r it was his own constituency of Radisson , his party, recall th at very, very deep commitme nt and con vict ion of Harry Sh afransky; unpredic ta ble but loveable .

I woul d like to extend therefore to Harry's wife Doreen and to his fam ily Catherin e, Tamara , Greg , the sincerest cond olences of his friends and membe rs of this Hous e, indeed of all Manito bans . MAD AM SPEAKER: The Honourabl e Member for Lakeside . MR. H. ENNS: Madam Speaker , it is my privilege to assoc iate my leader and all of us in the Conservative Opposition Caucus with the Motion of Condolence to the Shafransky family.

Harry was everything that the Premier has ment ioned in his words and certainly that is how he is rem embered by all of us who had the privilege of serving with him as a n umber of us had . Harry also had a spec ial touch to rura l members of t he Opposition. It was his practic e to invite several members of the Oppos ition to their home. His lovely wife , Doreen, would cook us a lovely meal which was a nice break from the cafe ter ia food that we were subsisting on , as we all do whe n we get involv ed in the se Sessions .

And I can rec all myse lf hav ing eng aged in that experi ence on a few occasio ns, along with other rural coll eagues of min e. So th ose are kinds of individual acts th at stand o ut when we recall and we think of a forme r c olleague. We think of him kindly ; he was a gruff but gentl e man . I am sure serving those peopl e - who elected him duri ng his life in publi c office - to the best of his ability and certainly not a bad M LA to be associate d with in the some times unruly

part isan atmos phere of this Cham ber, Har ry c ertainly did his best to dam pen, unruffle water s from time to time , and to make this place a littl e more plea sant to live in. Thank you, M ada m Spea ker. Wit h th ose few comments , ou r co ndol enc es t o Doreen an d t he Shafransky famil y.

Friday, 8 May, 1987 MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines . HON. W. PARASIUK: Thank you , Madam Speaker . I am honoured to second the motion . Harry Shafransky was a very close friend of mine. It was a friendship that developed more in my adult life . I didn 't know him when I was growing up, but I did know of Harry Shafransky before he knew me. Harry was the first person I ever voted for and when one casts one 's first vote , you remember that very much. Harry was running for the NDP in the constituency of St.

Boniface federally , and I remembered voting for him and I was quite please to meet him; then I was delighted to develop a good friendship with him . It was a pleasure to know Harry because he did have this incredible zest for life . He liked to debate , he liked politics, he liked cooking, he obviously liked eat ing , he liked hunting and fishing. Harry was never sitting still. He was always do in g something; it was almost exhausting to watch him. Even after he had heart attacks and was told by people to slow down, Harry just couldn't . That wasn't in him .

I remember an instance where Harry rented a cottage at Grand Beach and arrived there. I think the cottage had been closed up. He opened it up himself . He had never in a sense stayed at Grand Beach prior to that. Within a day, he had cleaned up the cottage, taken off the shutters , raked the yard, set up a barbecue and invited half the neighbourhood . They were the re and Harry was hosting the whole neighbourhood, political discussions, great food, good drinking , good talking and that was the way in which he just normally dealt with people .

I was moved by the comments of the Member for Lakeside because that is the approach he took with me and that was the approach he took with many people. I think that the comments of the Member for Lakeside made me think that Harry , although he was very partisan, also was non-partisan ; and in that respect probably could serve as a role model certainly for myself and for many of us here in terms of how we should treat each other outside the confines of this room. He was that type of person who could fight a political battle and go outside and look for the good qualities and the comradeship of other people.

He did this because he was a deeply caring , compassionate man. Someone has said that Harry 's heart was as big as he was, and I think that's a very appropriate comment about him. He cared very much for the concerns of his fellow man , especially for those not well off . I think that probably developed through his life as a type of underdog . He came to Canada as a young immigrant , growing up in a homestead area , going off and doing normal school, trying to get his education upgraded as he taught school. He did all of these things before they had things like student aid.

He fought very hard to , in a sense , lift himself up and provide for his family. At the same time, when he had an opportunity , he worked very hard to ensure that other people might have a slightly easier path and might , in fact, have a chance to improve their living conditions substantially and certainly improve their equality of opportunity which he very much believed in. I think that's probably what led him to get involved in the Teachers ' Soc iety, in community activities and politics. I know he certainly had a great pride in representing the people as an elected member of the Legislature.

He took his duties very diligently and at the same time he did always want to relate to people. I won't go into his functions here in the Legislature - I think the Premier has cove red that - but he did , in fact , have a respect for public service - a respect that was ver y strong and continued with him . Another thing that impressed me very much about Harry was the fact that although he was so active and so busy in doing a number of things , he had a very strong relationship with his family , with Doreen , with Greg, with Cathy and Tamara . They were a close-knit family and we send them our love .

He felt very strongly for them and they supported him very much . The other thing about Harry is that he had many, many friends from all walks of life and from all political persuasions . I was always amazed that no matter where I might be in Manitoba , you'd run into people who knew Harry and asked about him. Surprising circumstances , they all knew him. We who knew him were privileged to know him . We celeb rate his life and we thank him for his contributions to humanity. We, his friends , will miss him , but as we say in Ukrainian, Vichnaya Pam'yt - forever remembered .

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Minnedosa . MR. D. BLAKE: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I just want to add my name and supp ort of that of my colleagues on both sides of the House in memory of our late friend and colleague , Harry Shafransky , and to send my deepest sympathies to Doreen and the family . I have many fond memories of our late colleague . My friend, Jim Ferguson, and I, and I say it with Jim and Harry as Whips , they made two formidable Whip s on either side of the House .

There was not too much argument with either one of them, but Jim and I were the recip ients every year of the kind hospitality of Harry and Doreen . He would take us to his home, as my colleague from Lakeside has mentioned , for a lovely dinner and just an evening of sociality . You very seldom got into politics - and on that particular field, we very seldom agreed, but we had many common interests in hunting and fishing. Harry, as the Premier mentioned, was raised in the Shortdale area, an area that was quite familiar to me because I had worked up in that country .

We used to have many discussions about that countryside , and I have many, many fond memories of our late colleague . The Member for Transcona mentioned that he worked hard, he played hard and he just enjoyed life to the fulles t. There was nothing Harry liked better than a good party in social surroundings without the brickbats that we sometimes had in here; we could leave that behind and just have an enjoyable time together . I know one occasion that's a fond memory to many of us where we were in some negotiations about some members' benefits that sometimes now are handled by the LAMC committee.

Harry was negotiating for the 1850

Friday, 8 May, 1987 N.D. Party, a nd we had enlisted the support of one of our members who agreed to lay in a supply of Harry's favorite libation, and after a short while he would certainly find out what he was thinking and then he would be in a better position to negotiate, but after a couple of hours, our man was out of the race and Harry was looking around for another contestant . So those are many fond memories we have . He is not with us now, and what we have left are the fond memories of those who have served in this Chamber , and Harry served well .

I recall very vividly what the Premier mentioned about that late speech, that he felt it just had to be put on the record from his words and not from the printed word . I know, Madam Speaker , if they do permit the odd small sin, such as a game of chance , up there, that he's going to be waiting for me, wanting to get even .

Not to belabour those happy memories we have of him , Madam Speaker, I want to share with all of those who knew him and served with him, my deepest sympathy to Doreen and the children in his early passing , because he served us well when he was with us, and I think left us long before his time. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry , Trade and Technology. HON . V. SCHROEDER: Thank you , Madam Speaker. I, too , would like to associate my name with the Condolence Motion to Doreen and the family. I first met Harry in 1968, and somehow it always seems to relate back to politics .

There was a by-election in Wolseley, as there seemed to be every year or two at that time. That was when the former Premier of Manitoba had resigned his seat . Harry came to see me. He was very active in the party as well as doing his other duties . He eventually wound up being in charge of the finances for that campaign and I was involved as the official agent. I got to know him then, I got to know him in other political campaigns, and as has been indicated, he was a very good worker for us and for Manitoba . I got to know the social side of him . He was a very good organizer.

He organized a trip to Cuba in the mid- 1970 's and I was with him - my wife and I and many other Manitobans - Morris McGregor , who was a Member of the Legislature at the time , was there; the Member for Transcona, and so on. I lived in the same sort of old home along with Harry. Harry would wake up everybody in the place about seven in the morning for no good reason other than if he had woken up, then he decided that if he was up , everybody else might as well be up, and he would have us all sitting at the table, not

part icularely wide-awake and he would pour us all what he called an "orange juice. " He wou ld buy two bott les of this orange liqueur. He called it a "kick start " for the morn ing. He was quite a character . He kept that group of us going for several weeks of sun a nd fun . I was at one of tho se dinners the Premi er referred to , along with the Member for Tran scona , after Harry's death and there were tributes paid to Harry.

I don 't recall who sa id it, and there were a number of participants there from all walks of life , from all political persuasions in fact, and I think Harry 's life was summed up best by someone who said, " Harry didn't live life, he attacked it." That was Harry and certainly he left this place a better place ; he left those who knew him when they think of people like him and his activities , happier people; and again , my condolences to the family. Thank you . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Gov ernment House Leader. HON. J.

COWAN: Yes, Madam Speaker , I think there may be one or two more speakers on this particular Motion of Condolenc e and I see we'r e fast approaching 12:30 p.m. There are three more Mot ions of Condolence following this , but what I wo uld suggest , aft er discussions with the Lead er of the Opposition, is that we complete the Motion of Condolence on which we're now speaking and that we hold the other thre e over for a later period of time. That will require some leave to continu e past 12:30 p.m. for a short period of time, if that's agreeable . (Agreed) MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Niakwa . MR. A.

KOVNATS: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I shall not prolong the Condolence Motion but I would like to add my name and the name of my family in supporting the Condolence Motion for Harry Shafransky . The First Minister had mentioned that I had the honour and the privilege of fighting an election battle with Harry and I did defeat Harry, but I was just paying him back for what he had done to me one election previo us to that , Madam Speaker , becaus e he had defeated me and quite resoundingly . We had a great respect for one another; Harry and I did understand one another .

It was kind of a unique situation for me, Madam Speaker, inasmuch as I represented Harry in this Legislatur e, being the Member for Radisson , and Harry represented me, being the Member for Radisson . We used to see each other out in the hustings when election time came and I can remember vividly Harry saying to me, on more than one ocassion , because it wasn 't tha t large a constituency and we used to run into one anoth er and, " How 's it going Abe " ? and, " Not too bad, Harry ," and he says , "You 're not going to win this one ." He was pretty astute politically.

The next time when he asked me how it was going , I said , " Well , it seems to be going good , Harry, but I think I've got a problem ," and Harry would say, " What's your problem , Abe? " I can remembe r telling him , " Harry, I think I'm going to win ," and I did ; but Harry was very unders tanding . We never did have any feelin gs of animo sity tow ards one another . As a matter of f act, Harry was an important factor on my being here and being able to speak of him tod ay. It's kind of a long story and time really doesn 't per mit , but Harry was an important fac tor on why I'm here today .

Har ry and I atte nded many of the same funct ions in our area . We had m any of the same fri ends. I can rec all Harry st op ping by my home wh en he was out campaignin g and I h appened to be hom e for lunch , and Harry went to wherever there was a Kovn ats sign. 1851

Friday, 8 May, 1987 He would go and knock on the door and find out why it was a Kovnats sign instead of a Shafransky sign .

I was at the door and as he came in - it was a hot day - and Harry said to me, " Oh, it 's hot." He was a big man and he was having difficulty with the heat and I said, " Harry , would you like a glass of water?" He said, "No, Abe , thank you very much ; I just looked down the street and with all those Kovna ts signs , if I had a glass of water, I don't know who would let me in to help me if I ever had any problems with having to relieve myself." I thought it was a nice gestur e on my part offering him a glass of water and honestly, Madam Speaker, there were no ulte rior motives at that ti me.

But I would like to just say that he was a gentleman right to the end . I had some good support on the street that he lived on ; it was personal support. It wasn 't an anti-Harry Shafransky factor and it wasn't a political factor, it was just friends. They had a party one night and they took one of my signs and they stuck it up in the middle of Harry 's lawn in a big pile of dirt and it was there the next morning. I got a phone call from Harry saying, " Abe, I've got one of your signs on my front lawn ." I said, "Harry, thank you very much ." He said , " Abe, I really don 't want it.

" I said , " Well, just take it down ." He said, " I can't do that , it 's your sign, and out of respect , I really can 't. Would you come and take it down? " And I did, so that's the type of respect we had for one another. I just want to go on record, Madam Speaker , of my support of the Condolence Motion . We lost a friend and I'm not sorry that I beat him in the election and he wasn 't sorry that he beat me, but we still had that respect for one another. Thank you very much , Madam Speaker . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour . HON. A.

MACKLING: Madam Speaker , I would like to join in expressing condolence for Harry . Harry and I and others were elected in '69 in that triumphal election and we had a great sense of enthusiasm, and that enthusiasm never left Harry. I suppose he always was an enthusiastic person. Certainly I think every one that is here would testify to the fact that he was never a dull or a negative person . He enthused, he just bubbled with joy and life, and that's the kind of person that we remember, such an enthusiastic person that you always felt good in his presence, but a very dedicated person as well.

I read from the book that the Premier was given by Harry and dedicated . It's a book of poems of Taras Shevchenko , but Harry's words in the introduction , the Forward , I think describe Harry.

I'm just taking a portion of the first paragraph, Madam Speaker : "Born with Ukrainian ancestry, it is the tendency, even the responsibility, to be a philosopher, an observer of life , a critic, an aggressive worker, and if that was not sufficient , one is compelled to meet life's challenges with stubbornness and determination ." That was Harry Shafransky, an observer, a critic , an enthusiastic person , a real worker , stubborn, determined, a person who was really comm itted to social change.

He had very great social purpose, but he enjoyed life and he made others ' lives around him enjoyable for his having been here . I must say that I knew Harry in the Legislature from '69-73 . I knew him when I practised law , subsequently. One of my fondest moment s was when my wife and I were in San Diego , a brief holiday before the upcoming election . We suspected there was going to be one an yw ay. We we re visiting the San Diego Zoo , a marvellous pl ace , and we just wal ked in. Out of the blue , someone tapped me on the shoulder.