First Session - Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manito-ba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLV No. 25A -1:30 p.m., Monday, June 26,1995 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Aff"IIiation Name Constituency fm ASHTON, Steve Thompson N.D.P. BARRETI, Becky Wellington N.D.P. CERILLI, Marianne Radisson N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave Kildonan N.D.P. CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste. Rose P.C. DACQUAY, Louise, Hon. Seine River P.C. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Rob lin-Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary Concordia N.D.P. DOWNEY, James, Hon . Arthur-Virden P.C. DRIEDGER, Alben, Hon. Steinbach P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. ENNS, Harry, Hon. Lakeside P.C. ERNST, Jim, Hon. Charleswood P.C.

EVANS, Clif Interlake N.D.P. EVANS, Leonard S. Brandon East N.D.P. FILM ON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo P.C. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. Springfield P.C. FRIESEN, Jean Wolseley N.D.P. GAUDRY, Neil St. Boniface Lib. GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. Minnedosa P.C. HEL WER, Edward Gimli P.C. HICKES, George Point Douglas N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. KOWALSKI, Gary The Maples Lib. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LA THLIN, Oscar The Pas N.D.P. LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Norbert P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord St. Johns N.D.P. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McALPINE, Gerry Sturgeon Creek P.C. McCRAE, James, Hon.

Brandon West P.C. McGIFFORD, Diane Osborne N.D.P. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. Assiniboia P.C. - MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn St. James N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East P.C. NEWMAN, David Riel P.C. P ALLISTER, Brian, Hon. Portage Ia Prairie P.C. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. PITURA, Frank Morris P.C. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. Lac du Bonnet P.C. RADCLIFFE, Mike River Heights P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack, Hon. Niakwa P.C. RENDER, Shirley St. Vital P.C. ROBINSON, Eric Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Gladstone P.C. SALE, Tim Crescentwood N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Broadway N.D.P. STEFANSON, Eric, Hon.

Kirkfield Park P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan Dauphin N.D.P. SVEINSON, Ben La Verendrye P.C. TOEWS, Vic, Hon. Rossmere P.C. TWEED, Mervin Turtle Mountain P.C. VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. Fon Garry P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann Swan River N.D.P.

2537 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA �onday,June 26,1995 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Committee of Supply �r. �arcel Laurendeau (Chairperson of Committees): Madam Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson), that the report of the committee be received. �otion agreed to. TABLING OF REPORTS Bon.

Rosemary Vodrey �inister of Justice and Attorney General): I am pleased to table the Eighth Annual Report of the Manitoba Law Foundation. Introduction of Guests �adam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the Speaker's Gallery, where we have a delegation of German parliamentarians, the Honourable Jurgen Adler, the Honourable Klaus Franke, the Honourable Harold Groth, the Honourable Cordula Kollotschek, the Honourable Dr. Roth-Peter Lange, Mr. Manfred Macke, the Honourable Edda Schliepack, the Honourable Renate Kunast, the Honourable Peter Tiedt.

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon. Also seated in the public gallery, we have 15 students from the Salvation Army School under the direction of Emily Dalton. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon. *

(1335) ORAL QUESTION PERIOD VL T Revenues Community/Site Breakdown �r. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): My question is to the Deputy Premier (Mr. Downey). Last Monday, we tabled information in this Chamber indicating lottery revenue was broken down community by community, machine by machine, Madam Speaker.

In reading a letter we tabled in the Chamber from a citizen dealing with the Ombudsman on Friday, the Ombudsman indicates that the Lotteries Corporation on July 10, on August 17, on August 30, on August 31, on September 3, and on September 12 indicated no such records were kept of revenues community by community in terms of lottery revenue. I would like to ask the acting Premier, was this refusal to produce this information that was readily available since 1992 on the instructions of the government or was that a decision the Lotteries Corporation made on their own? Bon.

Eric Stefanson �inister charged with the administration of The �anitoba Lotteries Corporation Act): Madam Speaker, my under­ standing is the concerns around the release of information site by site pertaining to The Freedom of Information Act and third-party confidentiality and even the information that the member is referring to as being available in late 1994, was a detailed

summary on each individual site by site. One of the reasons for the delay in terms of that information being available

2538 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 26, 1995 was the changing of the computer software to put in place a mechanism that allowed the Lotteries Corporation to protect that third-party confidentiality and thereby releasing information on communities with four sites or more. Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, I wonder if the Minister responsible for Lotteries has read the letter from the Ombudsman to the government. It states that the corporation said that the information did not exist. There was a breakdown between the city and rural communities but the information did not exist.

They said so on seven occasions to the Ombudsman, an independent sovereign body of this Legislature. I would like to ask the minister, how can he condone a CEO and a corporation that says on seven occasions the information does not exist, when the Ombudsman only took one meeting with one computer official to find out that the information not only did exist but it has existed since 1992? Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, yes, I have read the letter and the letter does indicate that the access officer for the corporation did advise that she had not been aware that this record could be produced.

As I have indicated, the record that was being referred to was a record that was detailed information on site by site that did not provide for protection for third-party confidentiality. The Ombudsman through­ out his letter refers to the release of information subject to that condition, and ultimately that was the basis on which the information was released. Gaming Commission Additional Hearings Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, the Premier (Mr.

Filmon), in statements he made on Friday and to the public on Saturday, admitted that they did withhold the information from the November 30 meeting of cabinet where cabinet of course was given all this information that was denied to the Ombudsman on seven occasions prior. Since that information has been released after the election and after the three public hearings that have already taken place in rural Manitoba, would the Deputy Premier (Mr.

Downey) order the Desjardins committee to have public hearings in Brandon, Dauphin and Thompson in light of the fact that the president of the UMM has now stated that they want to have this information before the public hearings? They were denied that opportunity by this government that withheld the information. Would he now have those committees proceed to those communities so information will be fully available to the people to discuss the issues at those hearings? *

(1340) Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Act): Madam Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition makes a great to-do about this information being available in November of 1994. I want to point out to him that if he looks at the information that was released last week on revenue on a per-community basis, there were two additional things that had to be done. One I have already explained to him.

One aspect of it was to protect the third-party confidentiality that is recognized within The Freedom of Information Act, that is agreed to by the Ombudsman, that is standard format for organizations like Statistics Canada. The second element of funding that also had to be broken down that was not available at the end of November 1994 was all of the other lottery revenue on a per-community basis from the sale of lottery tickets, from the sale of break-opens and all of the other sources that provides a second line of revenue. That was additional information that had to be put in place subsequent to November 1994.

As we have indicated in this House, the choice of public hearings, the choice of soliciting input from Manitobans is a choice being made by the steering committee, by the commission chaired by Mr. Larry Desjardins. There is absolutely nothing precluding them from having more public hearings either in Winnipeg or outside of Winnipeg. I think, based on both the hearings they have had to date, based on additional information they have received, based on -

June 26, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2539 this information just being received, I am sure that is a matter they will be considering, whether or not they should be holding more public hearings over the next few months. VLT Revenues Deficit Reduction Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): Madam Speaker, my questions are for the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation. On Thursday, Manitobans received a partial picture of how little money was being returned to many rural communities compared to how much was being drained out.

My question to the minister is simply this: Has he contacted officials in communities like Gimli, Dauphin and The Pas to explain why they were paying so much more for deficit reduction than rural communities in cabinet ministers' tidings? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Act): Madam Speaker, I am not surprised to receive that question because we know the NDP opposes deficit reduction and believes in running deficits. That is clear from their record during the 1980s.

As I responded to a similar question late last week from the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton), there are two elements in this chart that show where lottery funds are utilized. One is programs, and those programs have two parts to them.. One is direct programs that apply for individual communities, programs like Community Places, programs like the Rural Economic Development Initiative, and so on; the other is province-wide programs that are allocated on a per capita basis. In any given year, we are going to get a wide range of applications from different communities.

We are going to get some communities very aggressive in terms of applying for REDI and for Community Places. We are going to have other communities, because they do not have a project, because they do not have a business initiative, they do not apply. I mean, to me that makes sense. I know the NDP probably believe that you apply for anything if there is government available. Fortunately, most Manitobans are responsible. They only apply when they need the money and that is the case with communities in Manitoba. Gaming Commission Additional Hearings Mr.

Stan Struthers (Dauphin): Madam Speaker, will the minister, since he chose to withhold this information, encourage the lottery review committee to hold more hearings in rural Manitoba now that the Premier (Mr. Filmon) has finally released some of the data that was withheld since last November? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Act): Well, Madam Speaker, I take offence to the

preamble. He suggested I chose to withhold this information, and he knows full well-and I answered in this House last week-I received this information last week, and it was turned around within a couple days and released to the public and here to this Chamber. I have already outlined for this House, in response to a question from the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer), why there were some time delays in terms of some of the information. As I responded to a similar question, the committee chaired by Mr.

Desjardins has broad representation from individuals across our province, people representing all kinds of different organizations in our community. They have heard the comments from people like the past president of the Union of Manitoba Municipalities. I am sure they will take them seriously. At the end of the day, they are the ones who will deeide if there are more public hearings. They are also soliciting input through written submissions and so on, and they take that very seriously, Madam Speaker. They will make the decision whether or not they should have more public hearings. *

(1345) 2540 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 26, 1995 Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Standing Committee Review Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): When is this minister prepared to

schedule a legislative committee meeting to review the annual report of the Lotteries Corporation, something this government did not do last year and, in fact, has not occurred in two years? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Act): Madam Speaker, the calling of committees is usually something that is discussed between House leaders. As the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) knows, there are all kinds of information on gaming revenue and lotteries if members are inclined to be interested- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Minister of Finance, to quickly complete his response. Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, there are all kinds of information on gaming and lotteries. There is the information in the Public Accounts, which the Leader of the Opposition finally looked at late last week. There is information in the annual reports of the Lotteries Corporation.

There is information produced by the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation in terms of the detailed analysis they produced last year, and the Auditor herself refers to the quality of the Lotteries Corporation's information as being extremely reliable. I want to remind these members, we are the only provincial government in all of Canada that returns 10 percent unconditionally to municipalities and 25 percent to municipalities for economic development here in our province. Health Care System Child Psychiatric Services Mr.

Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, before the election, after pressure from parents, nurses, doctors and patients, the government opened an eight­ bed unit for psychiatric children. When the government said that beds would close right after the election, the minister assured this House that no children would be denied services. Within the last week, Madam Speaker, we have brought to the attention of the minister three separate occasions when children have been denied a psychiatric bed and have been put on a waiting list because this unit is closing.

My question to the minister: Will the minister do what he said and mean what he said and guarantee that the eight-bed unit will stay open until there are no more waiting lists for children to get psychiatric services? Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): I resent the reference to the election, Madam Speaker, in the question. By the honourable member's own admission, the passage of time has meant that those beds have not been reclosed immediately following the election, as the honourable member had suggested.

Indeed, the reason for them being open as long as they have been open is that the care needs need to be the first priority. They remain the first priority, and that need will be paramount in the planning for acute psychiatric care for children and adolescents in Manitoba. Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, will the minister live up to his promise that he made in this House on May 25 and which he has again made today, that no child will be denied a psychiatric bed by virtue of having to be put on a waiting list? Will he guarantee that today? Mr.

McCrae: Madam Speaker, the care needs of children with psychiatric problems are very important to the department and to this government and, incidentally, to all of the people we work with in the health care system. Indeed, there is a variety of services available now to young people, adolescents and children that were never made available prior to the advent of the changes that we have brought about in recent years. Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, the minister avoids the answer. Madam Speaker: Order, please.

I would remind the honourable member for Kildonan this is not a time for postamble, and it is not a time for debate. -

June 26, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2541 Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, will the minister, who is refusing to answer the question, please guarantee today that we will not have to keep bringing to this House child after child after child who has been denied a psychiatric bed, while the minister stands up and tries to defend his record and gives us past history that does not apply? Will he guarantee the beds will remain open? Mr. McCrae: Despite the theatrics of the honourable member for Kildonan, Madam Speaker- Point of Order Mr.

Chomiak: Madam Speaker, on a point of order, I believe the minister is imputing motive. If the minister spent the weekend on the phone, like I did, dealing with parents, perhaps he would understand the situation. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Kildonan does not have a point of order, but I would remind the honourable Minister of Health that his answer should be short, to the point and should not provoke debate. *** Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, I spend most of my time attempting not to provoke debate. This is a very, very important matter.

The issue of health care and health delivery services in our province is of the utmost importance. The people of Manitoba told us so in the recent election campaign, so, indeed, I take my job very, very seriously. I do not believe that engaging in theatrics in any way helps any children or anybody else in this province. Engaging in a useful dialogue and useful planning processes with people who deliver health care services is the right way to go, and that is the way we are doing it. *

(1350) Pediatric Cardiac Care Program Child Death Inquest Committee Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Justice. In the minister's departmental annual report for the year 1992-1993, the government highlights the establishment of a child death inquest review committee, which this report says has been established under the chair of the Chief Medical Examiner to review every, I cite every, child death in Manitoba. This is a multidisciplinary group which brings different professional perspectives to bel'!! on these tragic events.

My question to the minister is, would she now explain why this committee has therefore failed to review not just one, not just two, not three, but 11 of the 12 infant cardiac surgery deaths at the Health Sciences Centre in 1994? Bon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): We covered this issue in the Estimates of the Department of Justice when the Chief Medical Examiner was here in the Chamber. The Chief Medical Examiner explained the process of the child death committee.

He also explained that committee did review deaths in which there was any concern, but where deaths were of a well-known cause and not unexpected-! believe at that time he gave the answer, such as leukemia-those deaths are not then reviewed by the child death committee. In the issue of the child deaths which will be the subject of an inquest, he did speak about them occurring and as having not been unexpected. It was when the issue was then one of volume that concern was raised. Inquest Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St.

Johns): Would the minister now explain to Manitobans and the affected families how they can have confidence in an inquest into the infant deaths, given serious concerns about the conduct of her department that was to review every infant death, when all four staff of the inquest who determine what evidence is relevant, which is not, and which compiled that information, are from her own department including two from the Chief Medical Examiner's office? Bon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): This is an issue, again, which we

2542 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 26, 1995 discussed fully during the Estimates of the Department of Justice which I believe I have also answered in Question Period on numerous occasions. The inquest will be conducted by Associate Chief Judge Sinclair. It will be fact-finding in nature. We have assigned Crown attorneys who will assist the judge in fact­ finding. This is the normal course of the process of inquest.

We believe, Madam Speaker, that certainly we on this side of the House have confidence in the judge who will be conducting the inquest to make sure the fact-finding will be completed in a way that will be satisfactory. Independent Inquiry Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St Johns): Would the minister not fmally agree, after looking more and more at this, that an inquest is hardly the way to serve the interests of justice in this province and that an independent inquiry is the only way to go? Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Again, we have been over the process several times.

It hac; been discussed at length with the member for St. Johns and also publicly. There has been an inquest called. The inquest will be conducted by Associate Chief Judge Sinclair. The purpose of the inquest is fact-finding. We have confidence that the fact-finding will in fact exist. Members from the other side have always chosen to skip over a process which is in place. We on this side of the House support the process and certainly the Department of Justice is looking to support the process ofthe inquest. St. Germain-Vermette Secession Mr.

Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): My question is for the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Reimer). It was not that long ago when we saw Headingley secede from the city of Winnipeg. Today we hear about St. Germain and Vermette and the possibility of them seceding from the city of Winnipeg. Madam Speaker, this government is- Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Inkster, to pose his question. Mr.

Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, does the Minister of Urban Affairs believe that his department has a role to play in terms of keeping the city of Winnipeg together, and if so, what is the province's role?-because they have failed in terms of trying to address the needs ofthe city of Winnipeg. Hon. Jack Reimer (Minister of Urban Aff airs): The member is referring to the St.

Germain-Vermette study that was initiated a while ago, and I can tell him that the procedures that are being initiated in that study are identical to the ones that were in Headingley in which a consulting team was hired, a steering committee of stakeholders established. The consultants held a town hall meeting on the outside of the study. Through the consultations, community input was factored into the study. The study took place, the consultants held a town hall meeting to report the findings before the report was fmalized and submitted to the minister. To date, I have not received that report. * (1355 Mr.

Lamoureux: To the Minister of Urban Affairs: What steps is this government taking to ensure that Winnipeg stays together. As the one minister heckled from his seat, what is next? St. Vital, Transcona, what areas? What action is this government prepared t<r Madam Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. Mr. Reimer: One the things that is becoming very, very prevalent in administrations all across Canada right now is the fact that people, the taxpayers are getting tired of the in-your-face type of government and the type of administrations that are coming forth.

The fact that people have chosen to live outside of Winnipeg is because of the fact that they feel there is a social quality. They may be involved with a certain type of recreation that they are looking for. This administration is not going to put up barriers and put up -

June 26, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2543 an invocation of where people live and where people cannot live. People have the choice and it is up to them where they want to live. Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, the minister makes reference to choice. My question to the minister is: The individuals that we are talking about live in the city of Winnipeg; they want to secede from Winnipeg. What is this government doing to ensure that the City of Winnipeg is able to ensure that it does not break up? This government does have a role to play with respect to property tax, for example.

Will this minister not go to the table with City Hall and try to resolve this problem once and for all before Winnipeg no longer exists? Mr. Reimer: Madam Speaker, we are talking about a city administration that has responsibility for the fact that they have been elected by the individuals. They have a voice within the City Council. We have people within that are in the various constituencies that represent the various councillors.

They have the ability to access their councillors, to give them their concerns, to voice their concerns whether they feel the taxes are justified, whether they are improving with the service, whether the service is available for them.The people within the city of Winnipeg have the ability to access their administrators to force-or to talk to them about the direction that they are looking at. Madam Speaker, for the government and the Province of Manitoba to have the heavy hand of government on everything that the City of Winnipeg does or the rural municipalities is totally irrelevant.

People are elected in the municipalities to make the decisions. The people are elected within the city of Winnipeg to make the decisions, and they have to look at it in a very conscientious manner as to which direction they want to take. Forest Fires Leaf Rapids Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Natural Resources. The loss of 16 or 17 trailers, a church, an automotive repair shop and at least one house along with other property at Leaf Rapids just two days after residents returned home only to be evacuated again is tragic.

I want to once again commend the dedication of the hundreds of firefighters along with volunteers who are clearly doing heroic work in a most difficult situation. Regrettably, however, there has been major damage done, and I want to ask the minister if he has an update on how close the fire is to the town centre of Leaf Rapids and how serious is a threat to the town itself. Hon.

Albert Driedger (Minister of Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, I would like to inform members of the House that at the present time there is a total of 134 fires burning in Manitoba, and of those 57 are under control, 22 are out of control and 55 have limited or no action. The fire at Leaf Rapids is one of the ones that we consider out of control. At the time when the decision was made, it was made together with people from my colleagues' departments, as well, in the best interests of the people that they could return at that time. What happened is the environment played a mean trick on us.

The winds increased, came in from the wrong direction. The fire moved into the community. We had five water bombers and over a hundred people basically trying to save the community, and they have done a good job. The situation is under control at the present time, but we have no assurances as to what the weather conditions will do. *

(1400) Leaf Rapids-Disaster Assistance Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): Can the minister responsible for the Disaster Assistance Board tell the House the status of financial assistance and emergency relief for residents forced out of their homes for the second time in less than a week? Hon. Brian Pallister (Minister of Government Services): Madam Speaker, I thank the member for the question.

2544 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 26, I995 There are approximately I, I 00 residents of Leaf Rapids evacuated currently to Lynn Lake, and they are being housed in a variety of ways in private accommodation. The friendship centre is helping there, I understand, as well. Some are camping. I believe I speak for all members of this House in expressing our great sympathy and compassion to all of those who have been forced once again from their home community and especially those who have had property damage as a consequence of this fire.

Certainly our department is working co-operatively with local officials in doing everything in our power to assist those people. I can tell members of the House that we have already sent two critical incident stress debriefing teams to the community to work with those who have been forced to deal with a situation that is almost, I am sure for us here, unimaginable-a very difficult situation for those people, and we will continue to assist in every possible way. Mr.

Jennissen: My final supplementary question to the same minister: Since up to this point nearly 20 families have lost their homes in Leaf Rapids, can the minister tell us what immediate day-to-day assistance these families can expect and when they can expect that assistance? Mr. Pallister: Madam Speaker, assistance can take various forms, and we will certainly take the forms that are most appropriate, given the circumstances of those evacuees.

To tell the member, I guess, generally, the types of assistance that we have been offering are not an exhaustive list, but certainly assisting in providing food for those folks who are away from home, arranging accommodation whenever possible, assisting with gas vouchers and so on to help them cover the costs of immediate evacuation. There are, in certain circumstances as they are raised, monies made available for daily allowances when people are without funds because of the lack of notice, when they were forced from their homes on short, short notice.

I guess the important thing for all of us to remember is that in making these decisions, they are very difficult decisions. They are made by people in the heat of a very, very difficult environment. Those decisions, in retrospect, may not be perfect decisions, but they are the right decisions at the time with the known factors that present themselves. Other factors may arise such as has happened this past weekend that are unknqwn, that are certainly beyond our control, and the difficulty, of course, for all those folks who make those decisions is that they will be criticized in hindsight.

I think it is important for all of us to be supportive of those decisions as best we can. Winnipeg Jets/Arena Endowment Fund Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, the Spirit of Manitoba is now attempting to persuade the City of Winnipeg to use its status under the tax act to receive and administer the Jets losses endowment fund from the arena-Jets deal. Madam Speaker, could the acting Premier tell the House whether or not the government has been briefed on this latest twist in this charitable status tax game? Hon.

Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, I think this is a case of not necessarily believing everything you read. If the member is going by a report in one of the papers today, my understanding is there currently is no specific request before the City of Winnipeg. There is a meeting taking place this afternoon. We will have to wait and see what requests, if any, come out of that meeting. Mr.

Sale: Madam Speaker, is this government, as co­ owner and partner of the arena facility, prepared to allow the city to operate the losses endowment fund as proposed by the Spirit, thereby doing what the province was apparently unwilling to do? Are you prepared to let them do this? Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, ifthose discussions take place, they will take place between the Spirit and the City of Winnipeg, which is another level of government, and the City of Winnipeg will make decisions around issues that affect their areas of jurisdiction, plain and simple. -

June 26, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2545 Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, is the minister then saying that the province is no longer a partner in this deal and is prepared to countenance anything the City of Winnipeg does? It does not matter because they are no longer involved. Mr. Stefanson: I did not say that at all, Madam Speaker. This member seems to think that we govern at all levels. I mean, he asks me questions about decisions of the federal government, as though we make decisions on behalf of the federal government. He expects us to make decisions on behalf of the City of Winnipeg.

He seems to think that we are the government at the federal level, the provincial level, the municipal level, the school trustee level. He should take some time to realize there are different levels of government with different areas of responsibility. Spirit is dealing- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. I am experiencing great difficulty in hearing the minister's response. The honourable Minister of Finance, to quickly complete his response. Mr.

Stefanson: Very quickly, Madam Speaker, Spirit is dealing with different levels of government, with areas of responsibility that fall within their jurisdiction. They are having discussions with the City of Winnipeg around areas that fall within their jurisdiction. They are entitled to do that, I think, Madam Speaker. We are not going to stand in their way to have kinds of discussions with any level of government about areas that fall under their responsibility. Clean Environment Commission Solid Waste Management Hearings Ms.

Becky Barrett (Wellington): Madam Speaker, the provincial government has announced that the Clean Environment Commission will conduct a public review of the major issues related to solid waste management in the capital region this August. The Minister of Environment stated in his press release that, I quote, "In developing a solid waste plan for the Capital Region, a wide net must be cast .... " I would like to ask the Minister of Environment, if this is truly the case, why the p�blic review on this vital issue to so many Manitobans is being held in mid­ August Hon.

Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Madam Speaker, first of all, this was an additional requirement that we placed on this process in order to acquire input from not only residents of the city of Winnipeg but from surrounding areas. The member should be aware that there are also other pressures timing-wise. Louisiana-Pacific is appearing before the commission, probably in September, on forest licensing. There are limitations on availability of time.

It seemed to me reasonable and certainly if there are those who are unable to appear at a precise time, the commission will be able to receive written information. But, Madam Speaker, I do not anticipate there will be an enormous difficulty with people being able to make themselves available for at least one day during that period. Ms.

Barrett: Madam Speaker, given that the City of Winnipeg has actually written to the Minister of Environment requesting a delay into September or October, not just to make the presentation but also to prepare for the presentation, why will the minister not ask the Clean Environment Commission or instruct the Clean Environment Commission to delay the hearings so that the City of Winnipeg and other partners in the capital region will have an opportunity to prepare the reports and their recommendations for this vital service? Mr.

Cummings: Madam Speaker, I have had countless meetings with the City of Winnipeg, BFI and others around this issue. We have discussed the possibility of this type of a hearing a number of times. I suppose this demonstrates that one should always have these matters put in writing as opposed to accepting the statements that are made at meetings

2546 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 26, 1995 from time to time, but it is only now that the city has made me aware that they are concerned about the timing. Previously, it was my understanding that both the city and BFI were anxious to get into this process and get the information on the table. We want to get on with it, frankly. Ms. Barrett: I am wondering what the minister and the government has to hide in not delaying for a brief time so that the people who are going to be affected by the decisions made by the Clean Environment Commission will have adequate time to prepare.

Is that not what the government wants, to get the proper information on the record? Mr. Cummings: Absolutely, and we have been working on this for six months. It is time to get the job done. * (1410 ) Public Housing Maintenance!U pgrading Budget Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Madam Speaker, the seriousness of maintaining public housing has been highlighted by the recent reports of yet another child falling through improperly maintained windows and screens.

The former Minister of Housing said most of this housing was built in the '70s and has now reached the point where significant ongoing maintenance is required. As our housing ages, the cost of modernization and improvement also mounts. I want to ask the Minister of Housing currently if the budget for maintenance in the department is keeping up with this increased demand for modernization and maintenance. Hon.

Jack Reimer (Minister of Urban Aff airs): The ongoing cost, as mentioned by the member for Radisson, regarding housing is of an ongoing nature in the sense of budget priorities and the direction of maintenance in it. The member is right by stating that there is a concern as to which way and where the priorities are going with housing and the maintenance. I have been in contact with the department in trying to formulate areas of direction and to get a better understanding of the department since taking it on.

In regard to the incident she alluded to just recently, I have requested a full report on the incident regarding the young child. Ms. Cerilli: Given that in the '92-93 budget the Minister for Housing said there was $15 million for modernization and maintenance for Manitoba Housing Authority properties, can the minister tell us the amount in the budget for this year? Is it $13.5 million as I have read in this year's Estimates? Mr.

Reimer: I believe that a lot of the questions the member for Radisson will be bringing forth right now have an excellent chance of fuller participation and further discussion in Estimates which are coming up, and the details at that time we can get into on an easier basis. Ms. Cerilli: Given the seriousness ofthis issue, would the minister answer now that the Estimates show the staffmg for operations management has gone from 132 staff in '92 to 113 for '96? Does this apply to the Housing Authority maintenance staff, and has the staff available for onsite maintenance- Madam Speaker: Order, please.

The question has been put. Mr. Reimer: Madam Speaker, one of the areas that the member is referring to is the efficiencies involved with the staff and if the staff are becoming more efficient in their operations, the fact that they are looking at the possibility of eliminating duplication. All these things would be reflected in a different marmer of evaluation regarding the budget. Canada-U.S. Grain Commission Canadian Wheat Board Ms.

Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, the preliminary report on the U.S.-Canada joint commission is causing great concern for farm organizations, concern about the Wheat Board, concern about the quality of our grain and concerns about the impact, if implemented, this will have on the farming -

June 26, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2547 community. We have heard the concerns expressed by the farm community, but we have not heard from this government. When is this government going to make a public statement on their views of the recommendations put out by the U.S.-Canadian joint commission? Hon.

Harry Enns (Minister of Agriculture): Madam Speaker, I suppose I could suggest to the honourable member that inasmuch as the Canadian Wheat Board is very much a federal institution, created by federal law under federal jurisdiction, I could avoid answering that question, but the issue is extremely important. I am sure that the recommendations contained and submitted by the five Canadian commissioners, the five American commissioners will be given very serious study by both governments. None of the recommendations are binding.

I remind the honourable member that just last Friday our own federal Minister of Agriculture, the Honourable Mr. Goodale, announced the long-awaited Canadian review of the operation of the Canadian Wheat Board. I can assure her of one thing: If there are any changes to be made to the Canadian Wheat Board, they will be made by Canadians and not by anybody else. Ms.

Wowchuk: Madam Speaker, in light of the fact that Canada is known around the world for its high standard of grain, does the minister share the concerns expressed by farmers that we run the risk of losing control of the quality of our grain if the recommendation to open up the borders to allow U.S. grain into Canada is implemented? Does he share the concern of farmers on that issue? Mr. Enns: Madam Speaker, the honourable member has not read all of the report, the fine print, because that is specifically something that the American experts on that panel acknowledge.

We do enjoy that reputation for quality grain, and one that we are not about to give up or allow to be changed. There have been suggestions about how, in the interests of full and free bilateral trade movement, American grain can move into the Canadian market without jeopardizing that quality. These are precisely the kinds of things that in my opinion have to be worked out.

Let me make it very clear that it is very much in our interests to be able to move substantial quantities of our grain into their market, and being the two biggest trading partners in the world, Madam Speaker, it behooves us that we take the time to talk about this issue and not simply to worry about any suggestions of change or reformation. Agriculture, not unlike health, not unlike education is not above change and reform. Madam Speaker: Order please. The time for Oral Questions has expired. Speaker's Ruling Madam Speaker: I have a ruling for the House.

I am returning to the House with a ruling on a point of order raised on June 15, 1995, by the honourable member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen). She asked that the Minister of Education (Mrs. Mcintosh) be directed to withdraw a reference to the member for Wolseley as a "job snob." At the time I undertook to review Hansard and report back to the House if necessary. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. This is a very serious matter. Having had the opportunity to peruse Hansard, I find that the honourable minister did apologize for the use of the words in question.

However, the established and correct procedure for dealing with unparliamentary language is for the member who spoke the words to withdraw in an unqualified way, not just to apologize and put the words on the record a second time. I do not believe it is appropriate in this Chamber to resort to name-calling. We are all honourable members and should treat each other in a respectful manner. I am therefore calling on the honourable Minister of Education to withdraw unequivocally and without

2548 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 26, 1995 qualification the unparliamentary language used on June 15. Bon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, I withdraw unequivocally and without qualification any unparliamentary language I used on that occasion in reference to the member for Wolseley. Madam Speaker: I thank the honourable Minister of Education. *

(1420) NONPOLITICAL STATEMENTS Red River Exhibition Association Madam Speaker: Does the honourable member for Riel have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Mr. David Newman (Riel): I wish to recognize, Madam Speaker, the Red River Exhibition Association, a not-for-profit volunteer-based self-sustaining agricultural society. The mandate of the association is to promote industry, commerce, agriculture and tourism and to showcase the achievements of the people of Manitoba.

Yesterday, I had the opportunity to represent the provincial government in the Red River Exhibition parade and to watch the wonder in the children's eyes as we passed and participated all day in the summer show and fair at the Winnipeg Stadium and Arena as well. From first-hand experience, I can report that the exhibition is reaching out to the community to fill its mandate and to involve organizations through joint­ venture partnerships such as the Scottish Heritage Festival, the Valley Agricultural Society and the Manitoba Stampede.

What is not widely known is the magnitude of volunteer involvement in this particular association. I would like to pay tribute to and recognize the over 700 volunteers who participate and make this event and the association a success. They also stage handicraft, photo art, horticultural competitions, the parade and the youth talent competition. Today they are going to be recognizing Susan and Emmanuel Van De Velde and their family as the Manitoba Farm Family of the Year. This family is from the constituency of the honourable member for Gladstone (Mr. Rocan).

I encourage all honourable members to support and to learn more about this volunteer association and its diverse and valuable endeavours for the benefit of Manitobans. Thank you. Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): I would like leave for a nonpolitical statement. Madam Speaker: Does the honourable Leader of the official opposition have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, I would like to join the member for Riel (Mr. Newman) and all members of this Chamber in paying tribute to the organizers and volunteers of the Red River Ex.

It is really a symbol of all the many festivals and events that will be taking place, I suppose, all across this beautiful province of Manitoba over the next number of months, festivals and parades, et cetera, that will take place right throughout our province. Many of these events, like the Red River Ex, are run by volunteers, volunteers that work tirelessly 12 months a year to provide great hospitality, great kinship and great festivity and heritage in our communities.

Whether it is the Peguis Days coming up in July at that community or the Red River Ex or the Threshermen's Reunion in Austin, it is wonderful to have a great province like Manitoba. Even areas that had some controversy in the past like the Folk Festival are now enjoyed by all members of this Chamber. In coming back to the Red River Ex, the member for Riel noted the volunteerism in that exhibition. I was a volunteer in the past at the Red River Ex. I was one of the hosts for the American bands that came to Manitoba to compete in the marching competition, to -

June 26, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2549 compete in the concert competition and also give great flavour, along with the Manitoba bands, to the Red River Ex parade that the member for Riel was in this weekend.

I know that it is not only a tremendous event for us as hosts, but it is also great for Manitoba tourism because many of these young boys and girls are high school students in those bands, go back to their communities in Minnesota, Illinois, North Dakota, South Dakota and Montana and have great stories to tell about the wonderful hospitality of Manitoba and friendly Manitobans here in this community. I have met some in subsequent years that have been to our community first in band competitions and have visited later on as tourists.

I would like to pay tribute to the Farm Family of the Year and I hope that the Red River Ex this year is a safe environment for families to participate in. I know there will be many other exhibitions in many other communities outside ofthe city of Winnipeg, and it is what we do best, Madam Speaker, people working with people across Manitoba. Thank you. Scholar-Athlete Awards Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): May I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? Madam Speaker: Does the honourable member for Radisson have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Ms.

Cerilli: Madam Speaker, I rise to acknowledge the extraordinary accomplishments of some very active young Manitobans. These are young people that have won the Scholar-Athlete Awards from the Manitoba High Schools Athletic Association and the Bank of Montreal. These are active people indeed, since to qualify for this award they must not only maintain a greater than 85 percent average in their high school academic career, but they must also participate in a minimum of two interscholastic athletic programs.

The award winners for this year are: Joe Friesen of Kelvin High School, Jean Friesen's son and the MLA for Wolseley; from River East Collegiate, my old alma mater, Stephanie Dyck; Antonio Hermenegildo from R.D. Parker Collegiate in Thompson; and Jaydee Gushuliak from Roseau Valley School in Dominion City. Now, each of these exemplary students have shown that they can have a balanced life and remain active and participate to a high level in intercollegiate athletics.

I think it underlines the importance of these programs for all students across the province, and we should reco gnize that and rededicate our commitment to ensuring that all students across the province have the opportunity to participate not only in quality education programs but also in quality extracurricular programs, such as sports, arts and cultural activities. Thank you, Madam Speaker. ORDERS OF THE DAY House Business Hon. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, by leave, I would like to make some changes in the sequence of Estimates for the Committee of Supply.

From the House, I would like to move to Room 254 on a permanent basis the following: Government Services, the Estimates of the Department of Environment, the Sustainable Development Innovations Fund, the Department of Labour and the Civil Service Commission. In Room 255, I would like to place before the Status of Women the Department of Energy and Mines on a permanent basis.

Madam Speaker: Does the honourable government House leader have leave to change the sequence from House to 254, Environment, Sustainable Development Innovations Fund, Labour, followed by Civil Service Commission, and Room 255, Energy and Mines to precede Status of Women? [agreed] Mr. Ernst: Madam Speaker, would you call for second reading Bill28. Following that, would you call Bill24.

2550 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 26, 1995 SECOND READINGS Bill28-The Statute Law Amendment (Taxation) Act, 1995 Bon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): I move, seconded by the Minister of Justice (Mrs. Vodrey), that Bill 28, The Statute Law Amendment (Taxation) Act, 1995 (Loi de 1995 modifiant diverses dispositions legislatives en matiere de fiscalite), be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, in the 125th year of Manit oba's history as a province, this government presented its eighth Budget Address.

I was pleased to announce the attainm ent of a goal we had worked hard to secure since our election in I988, a balanced budget with the first planned surplus in over 20 years. This major achievement was accomplished without any tax increa ses and while continuing a tax freeze of major taxes for an eighth straight year. Bill 28, The Statute Law Amendment (Taxation) Act, I995, provides legislative authority for the strategic tax reductions I announced in the Budget Address of March 9, as well as for minor technical and housekeeping amendments.

Today I will briefly describe the contents of Bill 28, and I will invite all members to express their position on its content during the subsequent debates. As has become the recent custom, I will provide opposition critics with detailed explanations of the provisions of this bill prior to the committee stage. * (1 430) Madam Speaker, the measures contained in this bill will bolster investment and the creation and maintenance of jobs in Manitoba. It will also help improve the fairness of our tax system. The Income Tax Act.

Changes to The Income Tax Act will encourage investment in manufacturing and processing and simplify the determination of expenditures eligible for the research and development tax credit and corre ct an anomaly in the application of net income tax to mutual fund trusts. The manufacturing investment tax credit, equal to 10 percent of eligible new capital expenditu res on manufacturing plant and equipment in Manitoba, will be extended for another year. Qualified property acquired before July I, I996, for first-time use will be eligible for the I 0 percent cre dit. The research and development tax credit.

Eligible expenditures for the research and development tax credit will include proxy amounts as used for federal income tax purposes. The proxy amount is a simplified method of calculating overhead expenses which qualify as a qualified expendi ture for purposes of the federal act. The definition of eligible expenditure for provincial purposes will more closely parallel federal legislation. Mutual fund trusts. The net income tax introdu ced in 1987 applies on the net income of individ uals and trusts.

Mutual fund trusts, unlike testamentary or other intra vires trusts, act as conduits between investo rs and corporations in which the trusts invest. Unlike regular income tax, in certain circumstances a mutual fund trust may be subject to net income tax on dividend gross-ups even though the underlying dividends have been allocated to unit holders. This is a problem unique to Mani toba as the only other province, Saskatchewan, with a net income tax does not have mutual fund trusts.

In order to provide a level playing field for mutual fund trusts resident in Manitoba, a cre dit based on unused dividend tax credits of the mutual fund trust will be allowed. This measure also removes the potential for double taxation of Canadian dividends in the trust initially and in the hands of unitholders when units are redeemed. Madam Speaker, Bill 28 provides changes to provincial sales tax legislation under The Retail Sales Tax Act and The Revenue Act. Rebates for first-time buyers of new homes. A rebate of up to $2,500 of retail sales tax to first-time buyers of -

June 26, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 255 1 a new home, introdu ced last year, is extended to the end of December 1995. The amount of $2,500 approximates the average provincial sales tax amount paid on the materials used in construction of an average new bungalow. Since its introduc tion last year, almost 340 Manitoba families have benefited from rebates totally over $737,000 and many other families have gained from employment in building qualifying homes. Bad debt allowances.

Bad debts are a concern to all businesses, particularly where a vendor is held responsible for sales taxes on uncollected amounts. Bill 28 fulfils our budget commitment to forgive the retail sales tax and tax on electricity and natural gas which has not been collected on bad debts . School yearbooks. School yearbooks, even those cont aining advertisements, will be exempted from the retail sales tax. Drill bits and explosives. Since 1992 these ite ms were exempted from sales taxation where they were used in mining for production purposes.

Bill 28 extends the exemption where drill bits and explosives are used in exploration and development. Used vehicle sales. The simplification of sales tax collection and processing of refunds where applicable has been a goal of my department for a number of years. Under current rules, an individual who purchases a replacement vehicle and sells his or her current car privately is required to pay sales tax on the full price of the replacement vehicle and may apply for a refund of sales tax on the value of the vehicle sold.

Procedures governing payment of retail sales tax on used vehicles at the time of registration are being simplified to allow an immediate tax credit on the private sale of the vehicle being replaced. Gasoline taxes. Our government supports job creation in the key area of air cargo transportation. Since July 1, 1993, we have provided an exemption from aviation fuel tax on internati onal cargo flights. Bill 28 will expand the exemption to include the cargo component of intercontinental passenger flights.

Together these exemptions will stre ngthen Winnipeg's efforts to become an interna tional int ermodal cargo centre. Health and post-secondary education tax levy. A technical change to the payroll tax legislation will clarify the wording of the payroll tax exemption presently allowed to trucking firms in respect of int erprovincial and internatio nal transportat ion. Land transfer tax. The land transfer tax is being amended to help simplify land. claim settl ements.

Bill 28 provides an exemption from land transfer tax on the transfer of land for the benefit of an Indian band, for the transfers and settlement of a Treaty Land Entitlement and the province and the federal government agree to the transfer without tax as a sett lement of a claim. Mining tax. In our continuing commitment to improvement of services and fairness to taxpayers, The Mining Tax Act is amended to allow a taxpayer to appeal an assessment or reassessment to the Tax Appeal Commission. The commission's decision may also be appealed to the Minister of Finance and, ultimate ly, to the courts.

Madam Speaker, I look forward to the debate on these measures and to hearing the position of the opposition on these matters. Thank you very much. Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): I move, seconded by the member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans), that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to. DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS Bill24-The Tobacco Tax Amendment Act Madam Speaker: To resume debate on second reading of Bill 24 on the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr.

Ste fanson), The Tobacco Tax Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la Loi de la taxe sur le tabac, standing in the name of the honourable member for Transcona. Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Madam Speaker, I had been saving this opportunity to speak on behalf of our Finance critic, and I will let him put the comments of

2552 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 26, 1995 our side on the record with respect to this piece of legislation. Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Madam Speaker, I just have a few words to say on Bill 24, The Tobacco Tax Amendment Act. The minister introd uced it last week and explained the need for this particular piece of legislation.

I guess we have to recognize the problem that the Province of Manitoba faces is one that arises from federal government policy whereby the federal government cut tobacco taxes seriously or substantia lly a year or so ago and, of course, the subsequent capitulation by the provinces of Quebec and Ontario, with therefore pressure being put on the rest of Canada, including Manitoba.

I note that the efforts of the province to date have generally been successful by and large in terms of thwarting illegal importation of tobacco products, and I appreciate that this is a great challenge, and I appreciate the fact that there is a lot of criticism of the province in how it has been administered. I understand that there has been a fair backlog develop in court, with various court cases pending dealing with matters arising from the government's policy of banning the importation of tobacco products from eastern Canada.

So I appreciate the fact that the amendments we have here allow for greater flexibility and should answer many of the questions, many of the problems that the province now faces. I think we have to recognize, Madam Speaker, that we are faced with a dilemma, and the dilemma is this. On the one hand, we want to protect our revenue source, because indeed tobacco taxes do provide a substantial amount of revenue, but on the other hand, we do believe in freedom of trade among the provinces of Canada. I do not think anyone, including the Minister of Finance (Mr.

Stefanson), wants to interfere or interrupt the free flow of goods and services, but this has to be considered a special case for many reasons, including the fact that it does affect an important tax revenue, but also, I think, because there are, in my view at least, health considerations that one has to recognize.

The fact is that higher-priced tobacco products do cut back on consumption of such products, particularly by young people, but there is a lot of evidence to show that there is a direct correlation between prices of tobacco products and the rate .of consumption by the citizens and particularly by young citizens. So, to that extent, I suppose, one could argue that we should do everything possible to maintain a high tax regime on tobacco products, including the efforts that are now being taken to thwart the illegal importation of tobacco products into Manitoba.

At any rate, Madam Speaker, we are prepared to let this matter go to committee, and we look forward to seeing what representation there might be, providing the government, providing the Legislature with any advice that the public might have with respect to these amendments. Thank you. Madam Speaker: Is the House ready for the question? Some Honourable Members: No. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, it is with pleasure that I can stand and rise today to talk on Bill 24.

I am somewhat concerned in the sense that I would have appreciated some notice that the government was hoping to pass this thing into committee stage in that I would have likely been in a better position to be able to give more comment on what could be a fairly significant piece of legislation. Having said that, I have gone through the Estimates process both in Finance and in Health where I have had the opportunity to ask questions regarding this particular issue, and I was somewhat pleased, to a certain degree, with the Minister of Finance's (Mr.

Stefanson) response with the whole question of smuggling of cigarettes. In that issue, the Minister of Finance made reference to the fact that the loss of revenues, and I believe it was quite marginal, and he had implied- * (1 440) -

June 26, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2553 An Honourable Member: A loss of revenue that we are paying because the people in Quebec and Ontario are not paying their share. Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, it is the member for St. Norbert's (Mr. Laurendeau) concerns that he attempts to put on the record that really would cause me to add a few more words. This is what my concerns are. You have the member for St. Norbert who tries to turn this into a political issue by saying, in the province of Quebec, the province of Ontario, there was a smuggling problem.

As the direct result of that smuggling problem, the Chretien government then reduced the tax levels for cigarettes. As a result of that, there were a lot of people that were quite concerned. Individuals in government and opposition, and even the Liberal Party provincially, expressed concern that, as a result of those actions, we might have seen a substantial increase in tobacco usage from young people in the province of Manitoba, that we were going to be experiencing excessive amounts of smuggling from the province of Ontario and the province of Quebec. I, too, was quite concerned about that.

That is the reason- An Honourable Member: All provinces, not individual provinces. Let us treat all provinces equally, Kevin. Mr. Lamoureux: The member for St. Norbert says­ and then I will get on to why that is the reason-treat all provinces equally. Well, I believe that the Chretien government did treat all provinces equally. The Province of Manitoba, from what I understand, could have opted in if it chose to.

Fortunately, the Province of Manitoba did not opt in, and I applaud the government on doing that, on choosing not to opt-in, but it still raised a concern in terms of whether this is going to result in, as I pointed out, an increase in tobacco usage amongst our young people and increasing the smuggling of cigarettes. My concern led me to questioning the Minister of Finance during the Estimates, because I felt that it was a legitimate concern back then. The Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) did respond to the questions, and I was overall fairly pleased with the response.

If the Minister ofFinance had chosen, he could have commented by saying, look, we have had a decrease in tobacco prices as a result of that, or that came about because of the dropping of taxes in the East, and then could have taken that opportunity to dump all over the federal Liberals. Rather, Madam Speaker, and I applaud the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) on being straightforward · and trying to take some of the politics out of that particular issue-and the Minister of Financ e-and I advise the member for St. Norbert (Mr.

Laurendeau) to sit down and talk to the Minister of Finance or read Hansard because it is already printed. He will find that-and using the Minister of Finance's word, I believe he said something of the nature of that it has been minimal, that it has not turned into what they had believed that it might have. [interjection] I do not know why the member for St. Norbert is so exercised and wants to be able to say so much on this particular issue. All he needs to do is to talk to the Minister of Finance, and I am sure that the Minister of Finance will share the concerns that he expressed with me to the member for St.

Norbert. Madam Speaker, if this is in fact a bill that will accommodate the Minister of Finance and this government and move us that much closer in terms of eliminating as much as possible what smuggling there is currently going on from eastern Canada into the province of Manitoba, we would be in support of that.

That is the reason why, even without notice of this bill wanting to go into the committee stage, in fact we would be prepared to allow it to go into the committee stage as opposed to adjourning it today, because we do believe that we want to co-operate as much as possible with the Minister of Finance with respect to this piece oflegislation and maybe possibly in third reading I will be able to add some more words if it is felt at that time that it is necessary. Again, thank you, Madam Speaker, for allowing me to put a few words on the record.

2554 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 26, 1995 Madam Speaker: Is the House ready for the question? The question before the House is second reading of Bill 24. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? Agree d? Some Honourable Members: Agree d. Madam Speaker: Agreed and so ordered. House Business Hon. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, in light of the action that was taken by the House with respect to second reading on Bill 24, I would call the Standing Committee on Law Amendments for tomorrow ev ening, Tuesday, June 27 at 7 p.m. for consideration ofBill 24.

Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson), that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Maje sty. Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Maje sty, with the honourable member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson) in the Chair for the Department of Gove rnment Services; the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine) in the Chair for Energy and Mines and the Status of Women; and the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr.

Laurendeau) in the Chair for the Department of Urban Affairs. * (145 0) COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) GOVERNMENT SERVICES Mr. Deputy Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will be considering the Estimates of the Department of Government Services. Does the honourable Minister of Government Services have an opening statement? Hon. Brian Pallister (Minister of Government Services): I am pleased to present the 1995-96 spending Estimates for the Department of Government Services. Although I am new, as you know, Mr. Chairman, to this portfolio, my research over the past several weeks has led me to believe that the department takes a great deal of pride in the level and the quality and the cost effectiveness of the services that it provides.

My review of the Estimates package compiled under the excellent guidance of my predecessor, the Honourable Gerald Ducharme, confirms that extensive efforts have been made to minimize expenditures and ensure the government attains its goal of a balanced budget. With the Chair's permission, I would like to highlight some of my department's recent accomplishments and plans for the coming budget year. An Accommodation Cost Recovery system was implemented in 1993-94 and applies occupancy cost to all government programs based on the type and location of space they occupy.

In doing so, it ensures departmental program costs are realistic and provides departments with the incentive to minimize their space requirements. In 1995-96, the two-year task of adding institutional premises to the inventory of space will commence. Property Management is responsible for maintaining all government properties. This includes provision of energy management services, payment of utilities, cleaning, maintenance, security, parking and lease administration.

Efficiency and environmental initiatives for 1995- 96 include use of state-of-the-art communication technology to monitor building mechanical and fire alarm systems from remote locations, participation in Manitoba Hydro's PowerSmart program, installation of water-savings fixtures in designated buildings to further reduce water consumption by an estimated 760,000 litres, developing cost-comparison models between government buildings and buildings in the private sector, paper recycling expansion to include boxboard and magazines, reducing landfill requirements by an additional five tonnes.

Currently, the program involving standard office paper reduces landfill requirements by 2 percent and produces ann ual revenue of$ 10,000.

June 26, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2555 Expanding the department's composting program by two additional locations to divert an additional 10 tonnes of waste away from landfills. Com posters have been in use for the last three years for disposal of biodegradable waste such as kitchen waste from food processing at several government buildings. This division is very active in TQM, total quality management, encouraging personnel to participate in the decision-making process.

In 1995-96, 25 employee work-improvement teams will be created to resolve workplace issues with the aim of improving service and ensuring client health, safety, and satisfaction is maximized. The Supply Division is responsible for government air services, office equipment, purchasing, materials, telecommunications, mail, land management services and vehicles. A review of Air Services was completed in 1994-95, and I am happy to report that the organiza tion's fire suppression and air ambulance program was found to be one of the most efficient, effective and safety­ conscious in Canada.

Some refinements were identified and are currently being implemented. Of fice Equipment invent ories and maintains all standard government office equipment. Beginning 1994-95 their responsibilities increased to include maintenance of microcomputers. Technician training has been underway and will continue throughout the coming year. Over the last year, Purchasing participated in joint efforts to eliminate interprovincial trade barriers. In 1995-96, they will be implementing an open-bid electronic tendering system providing access to potential suppliers throughout Canada.

Telecommunications takes pride in keeping us at the leading edge of communication technology. During the last year they were instrumental in introducing a provincial backbone electronic data network. In 1995- 96, they will be working with the Department of Education to develop and implement an interactive television education system. This will enable visual and audio instruction in rural centres from one central location, while providing a feedback link between the teacher and the students. Introduction of special operating agencies in provincial governments was pioneered here.

Fleet Vehicles was the first in 1992-9 3; Material Distribution followed in 1993-94; and land management services will become one in 1995-96. Postal Services has been targeted as a candida te for 1996-97. Special operating agency status enables an organ ization to conduct its aff airs in a businesslike manner. It provides incre ased management flexibility and ensures financial accountability through application of generally accepted accounting prin ciples.

Charged with prov1s1on and control of accommodation for government programs, the Accommodation Development group has been very active in reducing the government' s rent bill for leased space. Over the previous two years, through maximum use of owned premises and aggressive negotiations with landlords and property managers, lease costs have fallen by 3.4 million. Plans for '95-96 include further refinement of space inventory and examination of cost savings potential through colocation with other levels of government.

The Disaster Assistance group, composed of an Emergency Measures Organization and Disaster Assistance Board, provides the one-two punch necessary to fight any man-made or natural disaster the province may encounter. Emergency Measures handles the preparedne ss plans and assists local authorities in combating disasters, which the Disaster Board provides financial relief to municipalities and individuals who suffer uninsurable damage.

These two organizations should be congratulated for the way that they have handled the severe flooding we encountered this spring and in the past year, and as well, the situation that they have encountered in recent weeks with the fires in the northern part of our province. Their diligence and their sensitivity to the needs of Manitobans has frequently exceeded expectations. Mr. Chairman, I believe these Estimates reflect the government's pledge to a balanced budget while providing a high level of service to clients of this department. I would like to thank my employees. I

2556 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 26, I 995 would like to thank my predecessor, the Honourable Gerald Ducharme, for his efforts and wish him the best of luck in his life after politics and after government, and I would like to thank our Premier (Mr. Filmon) for the opportunity to serve in this capacity on behalf of the people of this province. Thank you. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: We thank the Minister of Government Services for those comments. Does the official opposition critic, the honourable member for Elmwood, have any opening comments? Mr.

Jim Maloway (Elmwood): I would first like to congratulate the minister for his recent appointment. I think that I would prefer to dispense with opening comments, because we have some territory to cover this afternoon and a limited time in which to do it. So perhaps we could head into the Estimates. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: I thank the critic of the official opposition for those remarks. Under the Manitoba practice, debate of the Minister's Salary is traditionally the last item considered for the Estimates of the department.

Accordingly we shall defer consideration of this item and now will proceed with consideration of the next line. At this time we invite the minister's staff to join us at the table, and we ask the minister to introduce his staff. Mr. Pallister: Mr. Chairman, I would like to introduce our Deputy Minister Hugh Eliasson and welcome him to the discussion. I have enjoyed working with him, and I want to put that on the record, and I look forward to working with him in the future. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: We are now on item l. (

b) Executive Support (

I) Salaries and Employee Benefits $369,200 on page 71 of the Estimates book and on page 17 of the yellow Supplementary book. Mr. Maloway: On a point of procedure, might I suggest that we deal with the Estimates excluding the Minister's Salary as just one global appropriation and that we simply ask questions within the whole area of the department? Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Is this the will of the committee? Some Honourable Members: Agreed. Mr. Maloway: I would like to begin by referring the minister to page 37 of the Supplementary Information book. That particular

section deals with the Accommodation Cost Recovery. I note that there is a reference there that the department maintains a perpetual inventory of all government owned and leased accommodation indexed by occupant. I wonder when we could receive a copy of that inventory. Mr. Pallister: Just for clarification to the questioner, Mr. Chairman. I just want to be sure we are working off the same page here. Mr. Maloway: Page 37. Mr. Pallister: Again for clarification, what was the exact information that the member was requesting once again? Mr.

Maloway: I was referring to the wording on page 37 of the booklet that talked about the fact that the department maintains a perpetual inventory of all government-owned and leased accommodation indexed by occupant. I was asking the minister when I could receive a copy of this inventory. * (1500 ) Mr. Pallister: I have available right now a space inventory report which contains information, I believe, that would satisfy the member's requirements, including the building type and location as well as the landlord and the annual budgeted cost for the coming year.

We can certainly make that information available to the member. Also, I should at this time introduce Assistant Deputy Minister Bill Kinnear of the Accommodation Development branch of our department and thank him for being available. Mr. Maloway: The minister made reference in his opening remarks to his department's aggressive, I guess, attempts to cut the lease costs. They have been reduced by I believe he said $3 million over the last year. -

June 26, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2557 Could the minister describe for us the methods by which he is able to reopen the leases and get reductions? Mr.

Pallister: This will not be an exhaustive list for the member, but some of the techniques that have been utilized include maximizing the use of government­ owned space where prior to that time it was leased space; consolidating government's operations into making more efficient use of space as a consequence of that; as well, a program whereby we have looked at entering into longer-term leases given the current situation in the market in terms of leased costs. It appears to be at something of a lower cost situation right now.

So entering into longer-term leases should result in lower cost to the taxpayers and the government over the years ahead. As well, in certain instances, where appropriate, offering to exchange the terms of the lease prior to the completion of that lease to the landlord, giving them the option to provide a rate reduction in exchange for the preferential rearrangement ofthe lease to result in lower cost to government and the ratepayers as well. Mr. Maloway: Mr.

Chairman, so is the minister indicating then that his government has been proactive then in approaching as the market dropped on commercial leasing, that his department people went out and approached the private owners of the properties and requested-! am just wondering what the procedure they used to entice the private owner into negotiating, because I would think that ifl was a private owner with a long-term lease with the government, I would not return the phone calls. Mr. Pallister: In short, yes. I think the answer for the member would be yes.

This government through this department has been proactive in pursuing more beneficial cost arrangements for properties that we do lease. As well, we have, I am told, been in contact with all major property owners that we lease from in an effort to encourage them to enter into arrangements that would be mutually beneficial, of course, to them and that they would procure longer leases with us and we would procure lower square footage costs for the space that we do occupy with those landlords. Mr. Maloway: Mr.

Chairman, I know that in the material I did see some figures indicating what the government was spending on private leases versus government-owned buildings. Could the minister give me those figures again and indicate whether the ratio between private and government is roughly the same as it was a few years ago, or is it widening? If so, in whose direction? Mr. Pallister: While we are gathering that information, I will give sort of a

preamble for the member, if I can, of the lease budgets, say, commencing back in '90-91 year over year, and we will start with that information for the member. This would be adjusted to constant dollars, 1994 dollars, for the member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway). The costs '90- 91 for leased space were 21.1. If the member wants more specific detail, I would be welcome to share this with him, but just giving him year over year: 21. 3 in '91 -92, 21 .4 in '92-9 3, 19. 7 in '93-94, 18 .3 in '94-95. Now that would be your lease budget figures. We will get the other information the member has requested here.

We are looking for it right now. This perhaps would be of interest to the member as well.

As for the actual leased accommodations port­ folio in total and where in fact we do lease space, in which areas of the city and province, in terms of where the space is actually located physically as a percentage, in the central business district of the city of Winnipeg itself, 28 percent of total leased accommodations lie in that area In the area of transition-roughly just to clarify, when we refer to the central business district, that roughly takes in the space from the core right to Memorial-and from Memorial Boulevard to St. James and then from St. James out. So the transition area between Memorial and St.

James, the percentage of space there, 20.6 percent; and from St. James out to the Perimeter, 18 .5 percent;, and, in the rural, the percentage, 32.9 percent. Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, just so I can get my thinking straight on this. Was the minister saying that the government is paying roughly in the neighbourhood of $20 million to $22 million for leased space. Does that include privately leased space and government­ owned space?

2558 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 26, 1995 Mr. Pallister: Just to answer the member's earlier question, I apologize for the delay in the information, but the percentages have remained roughly the same over the years because there has been the sale of government-owned properties as well. So that column has come down at the same time as total leased square footage has come down, but, in rough terms, the leased space, square-footage-wise, about 1.5 million square feet is leased, about 7.4 is owned. Roughly 20 percent of total space would be leased space. * (15 10) Mr. Maloway: Mr.

Chairman, so the $2 1 million that is spent leasing space then, what percentage of it would go to privately owned leased space? Mr. Pallister: Just to clarify, I believe the number would be in the area of $1 8 million, and that cost represents the cost paid for privately owned leased space. Now, in terms of costs paid for government­ owned space, we have a cost-recovery program which is an internal self-funding type of concept and is not alluded to in these figures. Mr. Maloway: Mr.

Chairman, the cost per square foot and so on that the minister is able to obtain from a private landlord then is not, I guess, the cost per square foot of the government space, is not in any way reflective of what the minister is able to get the space for on the private market, is it? Mr. Pallister: In answer to the member's question, I am told, and I believe that this would be accurate, what is done in the area of cost recovery is that a market value is attached to the property itself.

Allowance is made for the invested capital in, for example, leasehold improvements in the property, and then the charge transferred to the appropriate department is reflective of those values. So I think it would be reasonable to say that this attempts to duplicate, in some respects at least, the method of procuring property from the private sector and the method of pricing that occurs in a free­ market economy. Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, the minister is telling me then that the procurement of the government-owned space then generally follows what he is able to get on the private market.

If the private market drops, then they have to readjust their basis for the public portions of it. Otherwise, it will be out of whack. Mr. Pallister: The rents that are cost recovered from the appropriate departments for which property is leased are reflective of the market value of a property that is inhabited by those tenants. When accommodation cost recovery was put into place, an analysis was made of those properties involved and a fair charge based on the value of those properties was established.

Now that principally was done approximately three years ago, and, similar to assessments done on a regular basis of properties, that will be reviewed as market values may have changed in the interim periods. Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, well, I assume the minister has that quote, "perpetual inventory of all government owned and leased accommodations indexed by occupant" with him. Can he give me a copy of that now so that I can take a look at it and maybe come back and ask some questions afterward about it? Mr. Pallister: Mr.

Chairman, we are searching to see what kind of detail we can provide the member on the owned space. I believe, at the very least, we can provide him with a breakdown by department of the square footage by leased and by government-owned buildings. I believe we have that information accessible here and can give him that. He also has available to him this list, or I can make it available to him. This, again, is all leased properties but does break down by location, office type, the actual landlord. It does have some good detail in it for him as well. I will just forward this to the member for his perusal. Ms.

Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Chair, I wanted to ask some questions that I have already raised with the minister earlier in Question Period, in which he said he would investigate. These deal with the School for the Deaf. I wonder if the minister remembers the questions that I asked him, whether he has been able to provide the information.

June 26, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2559 Mr. Pallister: Mr. Chairman, would it be possible to just refer to the section. If the member for Wolseley could do that, I will see what kind of information we have at immediate disposal to give her today. I do recall the question and will endeavour to provide what information we can on short notice today. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chair, it deals with the issues of the Pan Am Games, and they are moving into the old School for the Deaf. What I had asked the minister was what the cost of renovations was to the School for the Deaf.

There had been, and I think it is repeated in the newspaper again today, the Winnipeg Free Press, that the government had estimated there would be a cost of $4.5 million for the renovations to the School for the Deaf to provide for new needs to the School for the Deaf. The government has also looked at Alexander Ross School, I understand, and is arguing that the cost of renovations for the deaf to Alexander Ross School will be $2.5 million, and hence it is arguing that there is a saving of around $2 million to the government in using Alexander Ross School in the future rather than the School for the Deaf.

The parents at the School for the Deaf are concerned that they have seen no further information on estimates for renovations at either school. I asked the minister in Question Period if he could provide further information for the Advisory Council on School Leadership on the basis of these estimates. What is included in the estimate of $4.5 million? What is included in the estimate for the Alexander Ross School of $2.5 million? Mr. Pallister: Just for clarification, please, from the member for Wolseley, the figure $4 million, I am not sure what that was made in reference to. *

(1520) Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chair, it is a number that is quoted in the Winnipeg Free Press this morning of an estimate of $4.5 million estimated to be the amount of renovations to the existing School for the Deaf for the purposes of the deaf. That is, had they stayed in that building, the amount required to bring it up to new standards required for new kinds of electronic communication, for example, was $4.5 million.

The government argued that it could do the same kinds of things, I understand-and I may be putting words into your mouth on this-certainly that renovations could be undertaken at Alexander Ross School for $2.5 million. Those were numbers which had been given to the parents, I believe, in the middle of April. They had asked, I believe, for further clarification on this and had been told that it was not possible. I believe that the parents had also spoken to the officer in your department who dealt with Freedom of Information.

It was not a formal Freedom of Information inquiry, but they had spoken to him or her and had been told that this information was not available but were not discouraged from applying for a further formal Freedom of Information inquiry. I raised it in the House to see if there were some obvious explanations that the minister could provide. The minister undertook to take that under advisement and to look for the answers, so I am asking again, I think it is about a week later now, to see if the minister has been able to discover anything. Mr. Pallister: Mr.

Chairman, as I mentioned in the House to the member, I will undertake to get more detailed information for her. I will try to give some general information to her today and hope that it is sati sfactory or at least generally accurate in its reflection of the situation as it exists today. The issue, of course, around the Manitoba School for the Deaf is an issue that is an emotional one for many.

It arouses a great deal of emotion in terms of those who have a lot of memories tied up in that facility, certainly those who benefited by the programs that were there over the years and also certainly because it affects young people with special needs, actually people of all ages with special needs in some respects. It is an issue that can arouse great emotion. Changing sites at any time can. As far as the issues of the parents that the member alluded to, I understand the Department of Education

2560 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 26, 1995 has initiated some discussion with the families that may be affected by changing sites.

As to the cost, which is, I guess, more along the lines of what the member is wanting to know, I am told that given various scenari os of renova tion with that facility, costs to renovate the facility could range in the area of-and I accept the fact that this is a broad range-b etween $4.5 million and $10 million to renovate the existing facility, which is, as the member knows, a very old building, a beautiful building but very old, to accommodate the needs of those people who require the services provided in that facility.

On the other hand, the cost to renovate in the other location that has been mentioned, Alexander Ross School, in St. James-Assiniboia School Division, has been estimated-again I use the word "estimate"-at around $2 million for those costs. That is a general answer to a question that I know the member would like more specific inf ormation on. I can only say at this stage that there is discussion taking place. There have been proposals presented in the past, I am told. Beyond that, I am sure the member has more questions. Ms. Friesen: Mr.

Chairman, well, the only new piece of inf ormation that the minister has offered us is in fact that he is prepared to extend the estimate of the cost of renovating the School for the Deaf to $10 million. I understand we are speaking in general ities there. I also accept the minister's perspective that there is a great deal of emotion around this issue. That is why I am asking the question again and again. I think now I must have asked it about four times. The parents want, I think, to have a basis for the discussions . They feel at the moment that they do not have a basis for that discussion.

What is going to be covered in the renova tion that could be estimated anywhere from $4 million to $10 million? What is going to be covered in the renovation that will be possible with $2 million? I feel and I certainly sympathize with the parents extensively on this. They do not have a basis for discussion. It is no wonder that there is so much emotion surrounding this issue when nobody is dealing from the same book and the same facts. I try to put it again, Mr. Chairman, on the basis that the parents want some facts, they want to be able to compare apples with apples.

They want to feel that they are being dealt with openly and they have some evidence and the same evidenc� that the government is dealing with on this issue. I would be happy to come back later in the Estimates process to discuss this if the minister is able to have his staff perhaps look at what further detail may be involve d. We can come back to this perhaps at the end of this Estimates process. Mr. Pallister: I believe the member is alluding to questions that the Minister of Education (Mrs.

Mcintosh) may or may not have-because I have not reviewed the discussions that took place in Education Estimates-undertaken to answer. The relationship question that she alludes to, in terms of the input that the parents she refers to desire, is one that would be best, I think, pursued along those lines and pursue the Ministry of Education.

As far as the costs, per se, of doing renova tions, I think the member is aware that, again, in a general sense-I guess I have some personal experience in this because, in my own prior career as a business person, I undertook to renovate an old building in my community because I grew up in an old, two-storey brick farmhouse and kind of had an emotional attachment to those and did not want to see it come down. I undertook to renova te, with the help of those who are much more skilled in that area than I, of course, an older home built in 1904 in Portage la Prairie and located offices in it.

I can tell the member that on that small scale, in a building that just was a I ,500-square­ foot building, that was a major undertaking, given the difficulties with the age of the building itself, the mechanical, electrical, plumbing requirements that entailed from that renova tion. Just simply the fact that it was an older building resulted in the incurrence of a great amount of cost that might not have been the case had I proceeded, as a business person, with the construction of a new building itself. It is one of very few decisions I have made in my business career that I

June 26, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2561 might revisit had I an opportunity to do that, but I do not, so I will live with the decisions I made. In that respect, though, I think there is a fairly valid comparison here. This particular building to renovate, generally speaking, would incur a cost for the taxpayer that would be-and I think the member knows this­ much higher than would be the case for comparable square footage in another facility, not just in the sense of the structural costs themselves for the renovation but also in the ongoing costs, the operational costs.

The operating costs for a facility, for a building of the type that the Mani toba School for the Deaf building is, would be generally, very likely, around double the costs for the Alexander Ross School, so in terms of the actual costs incurred in operating a facility, continuing to operate a facility which is, as the member knows, one that is structurally designed to accommodate many more people than it currently provi des service to. * (1 530) The curr ent enrollment is, I believe, a little under a hundr ed. The member for Wolseley may know the exact numbers, and I would appreciate her sharing that with me.

Of those students, only 15 , I believe, are full­ time residents of the facility. So circumstances certainly have changed from the historic operational requirements that building once had. The load that was put on the facility is very different, very lessened from what was the case. The actual setting within the building itself could very likely be described as-despite the emotional attachments that many have, and that is understandable, to the building itself, the memories they have of it, it would be very accurately described as an antiquated and outdated setting for those students.

There are certainly drawbacks any time a change like this is undertaken, and the member alludes to those drawbacks. Her concern for process is understo od and accepted. The reality is that we want to concentrate on providing services in this department and certainly in others. The services we want to provide, in this instance, to the students who attend this facility are perhaps better delivered in another facility, and it could be, we hope, very much to their advantage if that could ultimately be the case. Ms. Friesen: Mr.

Chair, the issue of the number of students in the existing school is certainly one that has been raised from time to time, and there are, as the minister indicates, fewer than a hundred students, with a relatively small proportion of those in residence at the time. But what puzzles the parents is that the Alexander Ross School accommodates 700 students, and so the issue of the number of students does not seem to bear on this particular case.

That is one of the reasons they are so puzzled by the government's reluctance to put in fr ont of them the very cost of renovating the two buildings to a comparable service level. I do not think the issue of providing services to deaf students is in question, the government's intent, but the issue is that people are being asked to move, in their minds, at relatively short notice, and I know that the Minister of Education and Training (Mrs . Mcintosh) has now agreed to meet with them on Thursday .

They do want to have some inkling of, some evidence that the government is prepared to share with them, the information on the renovation of the two schools and what is to be provided for that amount of money, whether it is $2 million or $4 million, and we might as well stay with those two numbers. I acknowledge also that when you are dealing with an old building, there are indeed always unexpected events.

Most architects that I have dealt with-and I have dealt on a number of construction proj ects in renovation-the architect and the construction company will have a standard formula that they apply to old buildings, whether it is 15 percent or 20 percent of contingencies, for such events. So I do not think the old building argument perhaps is as clear cut as the minister wants to make it. I repea t, I am looking for information on this.

I am looking for information that the government already has and that I hope it is willing to share with a parents committee which is extremely concerned about the changes that they are being asked to make. So I leave it with the minister for now. We can come back at the end of the Estimates period, and we can see perhaps in half an hour or an hour what material is available on this that we can share with the parents.

2562 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 26, 1995 Mr. Pallister: I thank the member for her comments, and I am pleased to hear her accept the basic premise of this discussion, which is that we are trying to provide better learning opportunities for the students at this school and that we are trying to do that in a more cost­ effective way. Certainly, that is the case. I am told that the actual space that would be utilized in the Alexander Ross School is less than half the total square footage of the current facility.

Costs would be for operation alone, and I am not here alluding to the actual pedagogical costs associated with the school, but the actual operating costs-that would be the salaries for maintenance personnel, utilities costs, grants in lieu of taxes and so on-would be less than half of the current costs, recognizing that we can therefore reduce the cost to the taxpayer in specific terms, in specific reference to these operational facilities, by half at the least. There certainly is the cost benefit.

I think the larger concern that the member and I share is that the services on the pedagogical side, that the services that are being offered to these people are of the utmost quality and effectiveness. That, I am confident, will be the case when such a move occurs. The facility being certainly a more modern facility, the member alludes to the fact that there may be excess space.

I am told, in general terms at least, that in terms of the facilities that would be available when such a move occurs, those facilities would not be certainly out of line with similar facilities in other provinces in terms of the space and the quality of space that is provided for the provision of the service. We would not be excessively using the taxpayers' dollars to provide for unnecessary quality learning environment for those people who are using the services of the school, but I thank the member for her interest in the issue.

I would say that certainly our department would be pleased to work with the Department of Education and with the member and others who have concerns. In consulting with them, we will be pleased to participate in any consultations that are deemed appropriate and necessary to achieve the improvements that everyone wants. Ms. Friesen: What I sense is an answer, no, that you are not going to share any information with me or with the parents, through me, on the renovations proposed to either building. Now, am I being too harsh in that? Did I not hear that, or did I hear that? Mr.

Pallister: The member is being far too harsh, and it is unfortunately out of character, at least as far as my knowledge of the member's personality, is concerned. I very seldom have heard her be harsh like she has just been. I certain have tried to share what information I could today with the member, admittedly in a general sense. I think the member knows that. I hope the member knows that it has been an honest attempt to answer her questions as best as is possible in today's circumstances.

I would suggest that the discussion that we have had, if she would share the information that I have shared with her today with the parents, rather than taking that back as a negative message, as a no, to the parents she has been in contact with, I would hope she would communicate it in a somewhat more positive fashion to those parents. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chair, what I will communicate to the parents is that the minister has shared some new information, which indeed he has, that the operating costs of the Alexander Ross School will be 50 percent less than the operating costs of the existing deaf school.

I appreciate that as new information. I will certainly pass that on. However, my questions on behalf of the parents have been related very specifically to the basis for the estimates for renovations to the School for the Deaf and to the Alexander Ross School. As I said a couple of times now, I am prepared to come back at the end of Estimates. The minister has quite a number of staff here. Is it possible for the minister to provide further information on those estimates during the Estimates process. I have, as I said, tried to raise it in Question Period. Estimates is the alternative avenue that I have.

I am now here again raising a very specific question, and I am looking, I guess, for a very specific answer. Will you be sharing further information or not?

June 26, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2563 Mr. Pallister: Well, certainly, the member should be aware that the function of our department essentially is to be the provider of space to government agencies of whatever type and to assist them in the appropriate design and maximum utilization of that space. That is our function. * (1 540) We are given inf ormation by the departments as to their needs, and the specifications of their needs, in this instance, are many and varied.

We work with those departments to provide a space that is appropriate to the provision of the services those departments wish to provide, that maximizes the dollar that we invest, certainly, on behalf of the taxpayer and is cognizant of the need to deliver effectively the services of those departments. In reality, in this instance and in many, the specifications that are provided to our department, because of the detailed nature of providing this service and many others, are largely in the hands of those departments as to design, as to layout and so on.

Those are consultative areas, but as far as certain specifics­ and I am not one who is knowledgeable, although I had the pleasure of working with a hearing-impaired student and a blind student, as well, which is not relevant to this conversation, but I certainly en joyed the experience . I am not an expert in those areas as far as the very specific and technical requirements that may exist around providing this type of service. That is not to say, certainly, that our department is not sympathetic to those things.

We very much are, but we do work in consultation and take direction from others who have much more specialized and technical knowledge in those areas than we do. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chair, when the department looked at the School for the Deaf, it had in hand a package of specifications arrived at in con junction with the Department of Education. On those specifications, specialists in a variety of areas from the Department of Government Services must have reached an estimate of that $4 million or $4.5 million. It was for A, B, C, D, X, Y and Z. That is what the parents want to know.

When the department looks at Alexander Ross School with a list of specifications from the Department of Education and the Department of Government Services, it is looking at the renovation of Alexander Ross School, X proportion of Alexander Ross School and achieving a final result of A, B, C, D, E and F. Where are the materials that would enable the parents to judge the comparis�m that has been made? Is it possible for the minister to provide those materials? Mr. Pallister: Let us address the issue of service provision, because I think that is what the member is really alluding to.

I assume, and I hope I am correct in this, that the first concern that the parents have is for a quality educational opportunity for their children. I would assume that they would want to know that this was not jeopardized by any change in site. Provision of the services would be assured in this respect.

I am told, and I can assure the member, that there would not be, given the general specifications as I am aware of them at this point, any threat to the quality of service being provided to the students, that is to say that any services provided at the School for the Deaf would continue to be provided at the new site.

As far as the cost of doing that, if that is the area of concern that the parents have-and I am not sure if that is what the member is alluding to-I am told and I have said earlier that the costs of providing the services as it relates to the structure of the building itself, the renova tions, the ongoing operating costs for that facility, would in fact be less. Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, I would like to thank the minister for providing me with a list of the leased spaces. I would like to ask him whether this list represents 1 00 percent of the private leased spaces. Mr. Pallister: Yes. Mr. Maloway: Mr.

Chairman, could the minister provide us-1 do thank him for the list, but it only provides us with part of the information that I was looking for. Can he look at his records here and see whether he has the informa tion on the square footage of each lease and the terms of the lease and what they are

2564 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 26, 1995 used for, what departments are associated with each lease? [interjection] I am looking for more infonnation to flesh out this list that I have. I think it would be more infonnative if I had the square footage of each one of the leases and the tenns ofthe lease and the addre sses of the property or, alterna tively, what department is using the space and what the space is being used for, the purpose of the space. Right now what we have is just a list of landlords-and I thank the minister for being so quick to provide the infonnation.

We just have a list of landlords here and annual budgeted cost, but we do not have the square footage, the tenns, what department is using the space or the location in fact of the space. Mr. Pallister: The member for Elmwood, for your benefit, we can provide you with a more detailed use of the space, that is, what service or function is being perf onned in each given area of space. I believe we have that information and can provide that to the member.

This list that he has does represent 1.4 million square feet of leased space, so the member needs to recognize that some of the information that he asks for is-1 do not question the member's desire for more infonnation, but I guess I would ask the member to balance his desire for more inform ation with the knowledge that it will take some time to compile some of the information that he has asked for. (Mr.

Mike Radcliffe, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair) Secondly, certainly in the case of specifics as to the terms of the lease that the member for Elmwood mentions, I hope he does understand that that type of information, I would say, is commer cially sensitive at the very least, that is to say that a given specific piece of space comes available sub ject to the terms and provisions of a previous lease being available to the general public's knowledge, that would be a disadvantage potentially to Government Services, in our department, in arri ving at an arr angement which would be most beneficial to the taxpayers of this provin ce.

So we do not want to create a situation, in other words, where we provide an unjustified, an unfair pre judice against the ability of our department to procure space at lowest possible cost for the taxpayers of this prov ince. *

(1550) Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, I specifically was not asking the minister for terms pf each lease. If I was asking for that, I would ask you for a copy of each lease. I am not asking for that. By term, I meant whether it was a 5-year, 10-year, 20-year term. Mr. Pallister: We will procure more specific infonnation for the member as I give him the prologue­ ! do not know; I hear that a lot in the House lately-the prelude to the more detailed information. I can tell him in a general sense that the average length of the terms of the leases has certa inly increas ed in recent months as leases have been renewed.

In fact, I believe, in the last two years, if I am not mistaken, we have undertaken to lengthen the tenns of the leases and, again, in a general sense, with a view to lengthening terms and obligations of the taxpayer to hold and maintain that space at a time when market prices have been somewhat depr essed, according to historical knowledge anyway. This, of course, is always, as the member knows full well, a guess at the best of times, but, based on historical evidence, we believe that this will result in a more cost-effective holding oflease space on behalf of the taxpayer.

If I have any more inf ormation here, I will share it with the member as it becomes available. Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, this list of leases, I assume, does not include any leases entered into by any of the Crown corpora tions such as the Liquor Commission or the Motor Vehicles. Mr. Pallister: The member is correct in his assumption. Mr. Maloway: I wanted to skip back a couple of pages to deal with subappropriation 8.2(

c) Leased Proper ties. In that particular section, there is ref erence to the documentation of all leases and that the department administers the financial transactions and

June 26, 19 95 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2565 the payments and so on for the leases. I would like to know, when the department is deciding on the length of a lease, and this is in refere nce to the special operating agencies that this government is spinning out in increasing ferocity here, is the government limiting its signing of long-term leases because of plans to further privatize bigger elements of the provincial service? Mr. Pallister: No. Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, would the minister give us an idea as to the average length of these leases that are listed in this list that he has provided me with?

Mr. Pallister: Again, in a general sense for the member, but I believe this is what he is alluding to, the average length of leases that we are now in is five to seven years,

whereas perhaps three years ago it was in the range of three to five. The increase in the length of the terms of the leases has occurred as a consequence of the fact that we are entering into a higher percentage of leases now which are of a 1 0-year duration, which naturally, as a consequence, would pull these averages up. Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the minister some questions as they relate to purchasing in the department.

There is ref erence that the purchase contracts represent fair and reasonable cost to the taxpayers , and there is ref erence to extending the competitive oppor tunity to all interested suppliers. I have a catalogue here that pro vides a list of all of the items, I gather, that Government Services provides to, quote, its customers in the government. I would like to ask the minister whether he could relate to us how the government is approaching the procurement of the items for the government and how the tendering pro cess, I guess, is working or works for the procurement of these products. Mr. Pallister: Mr.

Chairman, I would just like to introduce the ADM of Supply and Services, Mr. Gerry Berezuk, and thank him for being available today as well. As to the tendering process, I will share with the member that we have commenced using an electronic tendering process, a one bid system, OBS, as of April 1 of this year. As of that date, the primary source of oppor tunities for getting tender information has been through electronic means rather than the traditional means of mailing out hard copy tenders. This OBS system has been in use at the federal level since July of 1992.

In order to do business with Public Works and Government Services Canada, suppliers must subscribe to the OBS system . The federal government has been actively promoting this with the objective of providing a single source of service to suppliers . That will also, we believe, facilitate the implementation of the internal trade agreements that were signed in July of last year by First Ministers which will reduce interprov incial trade barriers in that respect.

The governments of Alber ta and Ontario are also using the OBS system; Saskatchewan and Quebec will be joining it this summer; British Columbia and New Brunswick are currently discussing contract details. This system will include all goods over the threshold value of$2,50�in western Canada that is our threshold -and nationally $25,000, and all services over $1 00,000. There will be no cost to government to subscribe to the system. Information Systems Management Corporation, Ottawa will finance the system through suppliers' subscript ions.

It should be noted that some hard-copy tenders will continue to be distributed, but these will be primarily for goods below that thre shold of$2,500. Mr.

Maloway: How then does this new system affect, say, a supplier in Portage Ia Prairie who perhaps had been supplying goods to the government in the past when he is now confronted with this OBS system that I assume requires him to become somewhat computer literate and compete with the big operators? * (1 600) I am just wondering whether this new system would tend to put small suppliers in smaller towns at a disadvantage because the minister is talking here about linking into the big centres in Toronto, and so on, and

2566 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 26, 1995 basically opening up to procurement policy to what essentially will be, you know, perhaps even a tyranny of the big suppliers. A big operator in Toronto will be able to provide, with the breakdown of the free trade among provinces, goods at a much lower cost per unit than somebody sitting in Gimli or Selkirk or Portage Ia Prairie will be able to so how is he going to adjust for, and are there any people in these smaller centres who are now at a disadvantage because ofthis OBS system? Mr.

Pallister: I believe the member need not quiver in fear with the anticipated demise of small business in our rural communities as a consequence of the OBS system. First of all, the cost to be on the system is $1 30 a year. Secondly, there, of course, will continue for smaller suppliers under the $2,500 threshold, the same system in place as was in place. So, if the member is suggesting status quo once again, that would be the case in regard to the smaller suppliers . There would be no change so no reason to fear change there .

However, I would think that one could be justifiably optimistic that rather than being limited to that particular service that one pr ovided on the basis of being on a list and being notified when a tender in that category came up, rath er than being confined to that subcategory of aware ness, one would think, as is the case generally with the increasing information technology that is available to us in society, that this removes potentially some of the inhibitors to development in the small business sector in respect to the fact that small businesses would now in rural Manitoba and throughout Manitoba have access to the knowledge of other situations where they might be able to compete and provide service at a competitive rate and, theref ore, have the opportunity at least to expand their market shares beyond those limitations that were at place in the past.

There is no doubt as well from the perspective of using the taxpayers' dollars, as we all do in government, that this is a far more cost-effective way for us to procure goods and services for the benefit of the taxpayer, by far more cost-effective in the sense that the traditional methods were at best piecemeal in some re