Volume 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st Session VERBATIM REPORT Monday, June 12, 1972 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 28 .--..,! !:

June 12, 1972 Tape 671 (afternnon) PK - 1 The House met at 3:00 P.H. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. ~1R. SPEAKF:R · Order! PETITIONS _I:~R__._,~R_. BRETT_:_ Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to pres~11t a peti.tion on hehalf of the residents of Harcourt, Monroe and llurgoynes rove, Th"!s petition is si1med hy approximately 2RS peu,,le. The prayer of the petition is that the road from Georges Rrook ~o Burgoynes Cove, the extreme end of the road be upgraded with a view t.o pavinp in the near future. !'Ir. Speaker.

I naturally support this petition. tfany of the residents of these three communities comm11te outside of the areas to work,to Clarenville and other areas. The road iR usecl ],y two school huses. Also, lumhering is one of the main sources of industry in the area. And, of course, the finished product has to be trucked out. T resnectfully suhmit this petition and ask that it be referred to the anpropriate department. ttR. S .A . N'RARY: Mr, Speaker, on behalf of the Leader of the Oppos:f.tion a11d the membe1·s on the Opposition side of the House, we are very happy to support this petition.

On motion petition received. MR. J. B. HARVEY: tiR. Speaker. I would like to present a petition here from the people of Black Tickle, Labrador. The prayer is that they would like a community stage and slipway built in that community, Black Tickle. They complain about not having a community stage,of course. when every other community on the coast, pretty nearly every other community ~as one, Right now the fishermen there are using their own stages. They are not in very good repair and consequentially they seem to get lower prices for their fish because of its quality at the time of pick-up,

.Tune 12 19 72 Tape 671 (afternoon) They fish late at Black Ti ckle, the re are lots of onµliners from the Newfoun dland side comin r, up , no place to tie up no place to off load their fis h. l'K - 2 T certainly support this pet tio n , Mr. Speak e r . The re are forty names sip,ned to it jnclu d inR my ,•,wn . 1 think with a community sta p,e and slipway there it could helr t he fisherme n considerably i n what the are rtoinr. ri~ht now. In closi np, 1-1,:-.

Speaker , it seems that it mi)"lht he my last d;iy in th e House , Wi.th your eave ! woul d like to say that it has been an educatio na l exnerience and a Rrea t honour to have served i n this TTouse in this seE<sion . T hope t o he bnck • I do not think I will he back for this sesi:don possfhly hut 1 will probahly be hack after :i by - election if there is one . It has heen An honour to serve wit h the men, a p, re at hunch of men i n this f!ouse,a nd I am pro ud to be wit h the re: resentat:lvf.\s - m. !E/\~Y: !R . l!J\RVF.Y · ----·----·- Do not hP so pessim stic . Well, I am just sayinp;.

T would like to table this petit ion. _ _I!!_ ~:!!_R_!:TI_! · tr . Speaker . T wcmln like to take advanta~e to s upport the fam ou i:i last words , :l.f you like , at least he f eels it ts, he is a hit pessimistic, thin) ,., lior this session . Bu t 1 believe the items referred to are more fe de1:al tha n pro vincial , hut definitely as Minister of 1-abrador Affairs we will certainly work aloni with the honourable mem er to i;tet what facilities 1,,e can for the area of Rlack Ti ckle. 2086

June 12, 1972" Tape 672 NB - 1 MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to rise ln support of a petition for a community stage and slipway for the community of Black Tickle. I am quite sure, Mr. Speaker, that it is a nece1c, .- .ity in the area of Labrador South seeing that Labrador South is in a rather remote ar'ea nf our Province. I believe we should strive to carry all the amenities of life to these people in Labrador, I fully endorse the prayer of this petition and I trust that the department will do all in its power to have this community stage and slipway come about. MR. EVANS: Mr.

Speaker, I beg leave of the House to introduce two petitions, one on behalf of the people of Isle aux Mort the other on behalf of the people in Rose Blanche. Since the prayer of both of these petitions are identical, I am introducing them as one. They contain about 900 names of voters. The prayer of the petition is for a suitable water and sewer insulation.as the govern~ent may see fit. I support these petitions very strongly. These are two fairly large towns, Isle aux Mort around 1,500, Rose Blanche about the same.

They certai~ly have contributed quite adequately to the revenue of this Province and to the gross national product of this country, When we see in this day and age people having to bring water in buckets as they do in Rose Blanche, it does not look just right. Now in Isle aux Mort, the water system was installed by the Atlantic Development Board about three years ago,to the plant,and they forgot the people who paid for it, the tax payers. We hooked up to it on our own but the system is not adequate and we want a decent system put in as soon as possible. I ask that this petition be tabled before the House. MR.

NEARY: Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to support this petition on behalf of the opposition members of the House of Assembly. The member who just presented this petition made a very convincing argument to have the prayer of the petition carried out this year. He is only about one foot and a half from the Minister of Finance. He was almost breathing down his neck ~087

June 1·2, 1972 Tape 672 NB - 2 there, so I am sure, Mr. Speaker, that the Minister of Finance heard every word he said. Nevertheless we are very happy. I wish him luck. We are very happy to support the petition. QUESTIONS: MR. MAYNARD: Mr. Speaker, I want to table the answers to various ques tion s here. I do not knm, if it is necessary to read out the answers in the House,there are plenty of copies. Answers to Questions 81 and 98, directed to the Minister of Labour, and answers to Questions 64,69 and No. 90 directed to the Minister of Highways. M:R. CROSBIE: Mr.

Speaker, the answer to Quest!on No. 42 on the Order Paper of June 2. It ta too long to read , -so I will just table it. The answer to Question No. 43, June 2, in the name of the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. ls there any new liquor licences and so on? It is not all that long, but I will table it, with copies. There are eight or ten of them . ~088

.I une 12 , 19 72 . Tane r,73 r:i1•e 1. M_~C~l<;R~ ()uest1ons Nns: t,4, 45, M,, 52 , 51 , 55, nne11lin n 51,: The h rewerioi; report snles of 5(,i,,5 8511 tl11?.en h•r th,• month nf 'larch which wou lcl 11motmt in ~r oss s.al," I ., I I 11 rc-nr.ed 1-n"''l'Tr. nncl hrewers 1111.ents to $2 , 175,688. 32 1111\roxf1,1:it~Jv. T11h1c,!. ('uer.tton No. 56: Cancel lntinn for l' .!. .A ta -.- 1,,, thr o,,,,,,rr:ncnL nf rt nnnc ,•. Cancellation of hP1· venclor' :<1 lic1:n~i". ()11e"<rf,m No.57: None were refuiaecl. 11111•,; tinn No.

Sil : 1'h,,re ar.e no such ;iool f eat l1,n,:; fnr rcnew:il of lt , ~n~Ps thiN fisrnl vP11r. Al I n f thrsl' will h,· t;ihlecl t.1r. !-r,, : ,-r, thrrr are ;11110 con1H" hut R1•rnrnne In the C: l erl< 's office- 1-·1 l I h.,v<' to lltl.:t <"h the t"fo>ht cr, i-le-: ro rlr r !'rlrt n:il hero;, 1,<'c:tusr th!?\' nn~ nn1 ntt.1rhe<l hrn• In the rlr,hL "P. ,mnERTS: ~!r .

Sneok<?r., l hnvP rt>nl lv a sun1•lementnrv ou~<illon co an :111swer u1hJ,,d the other dnv eithPr hv the l'rcmlrr or the mcmhcr for ferrvlAnd nn h<?h:tlf n( the Premier, with rcs ,,ect. co Lhe s1.,,1 f nf rhr l'r cm!t>r'-. offlcr in thr. hro11dv,. »ensc. T not i ce on flrd1•r<., of the f);w dint is real Iv nnt topfcal 1 nc•tice ic Is a mnttcr. ~•r. ~neaker, nf nr. ~tuart P<?tcrs chief e xec utive assistnn • to the Premier. There lN no infnrmntlnn about hi.m, I thc,up.ht l ,,,ou l,I 1ust ment i on it and the memher cou l d hnve the :nformarlon nssemhlcd. We will need it nn the estlmates if not hefore Sir.

MR :JI 1 C:K,-tAN: f)nes tion No. 79 on the Order Pnoe r June 8, t 089

June 12, 1972 Hr. Hickman. Tape no. 674 Pa ge 1 - mrw asked by the hon. member for White Bay South, asked that we table with the House the names of the persons who have been employed with the Department of Justice sin cP January 113 and whether their applications were pr ocessed by the Civil Service Commission. I tab le these. Most of tho se hired are members of the St. John's Fire Department or the wardens at the peni tentiriry or the Newfoundland Const abulary and thP.v do not come within thie scope of the jurisdiction of the Civil Service Commission. ~IR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I woul d like to direct a question to the Minister of Social Services and Rehabiliation. It is understood, Sir, from an

article in Saturday's "Evening Telegram" that a c- ommitment by the former administration to the Inter-faith group in Grand Falls to onen a senior citizens home in Grand Falls has been \ wi t:hdrawn. I wonder if the minister would tell the House if this storv i s correct or if financing has been arranged with the Inter-faith Group s o that thev can proceed with the senior citizens home in Grand Falls? . lR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I think that question could be placed on the 8rder Paper. I do not see any urr,encv in answering it at this time. MR. NEARY: (Inaudible) i-lR ~- HICKEY:_ I have nothing tr, hide, Mr.

Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order! HR. MURPHY: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: Thank you Mr. Speaker. I would like to direct a question to th e hon. Mtnister of Finance and Economic Development. Would the honourable min i ster tell the House if there are any new developments in the strike at Newfoundland Farm Products or are the r,overnment still maintaining the hard line? }IR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, there are no new developments that I can inform the House about at the moment. When there are any new developments I will certainly be glad to inform the House. MR. NEARY: A question for the Minister of Labour, Mr. Speaker.

The minister ~090

June 12, 1972 Tape no. 674 Page 2 Mr. Neary told the members of the House on Thursday that the government would reconsider the appointment of a commission of enquiry or an industrial enquiry into the safety hazards at the phosphorus plant at Lon~ HarLnur. Now that the minister has had the weekend to think it ovE>r, has t 11e minister taken a decision? ~R. MAYNARD: Mr. Speaker, like r stated,a decision will be made after consultation with union and company offi.cials and we are in the process now of getting together with both parties to have a talk with them relative to the ERCO Plant at Long Harbour.

Once I do talk to them I will make a decision. _!11{_'._ THOMS Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the hon •. Minister of Finance. Would the hon. Minister of Finance inform the I louse what scale of assistance do the govermrl'!nt intend t0 give the Newfoundland Broiler and Hog Producers who are at thls present time losinr: financially because of the present labour dispute at Newfoundland Farm Products Corpor1ltion? MR. CROSBIE: ~Ir. Speaker, this is a complex matter that has to ',e work(() out. 1 have no lnformation to i•ive the House at the moment.

MR._ THOMS_: Mr, Speaker, a supplementary question, Would the minister inform the House as to wh1lt time he will have the scale of financial assistance Rvailable? MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I cannot inform the House now. When this is worked out, we will certainly inform the House or I will certainly inform the honourable gentleman. I cannot tell you the exact day and hour yet. It is very complex as I am sure the honourable member understands, 2091

June 12, 1972 Tape 675 nn motion, a bill, "An Act To Incorporate The Newfoundland And Labrador Amateur Sports Federation, ·, read a first ti.me, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion, a hill. "An Act To Amend The St. Clare's Mercy Hospital (Incorporation) Act, 1969," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Protection Of Animals Act, " read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Revise And Consolidate The Socinl Security Assessment Act,•· read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

J!'1 - 1 On motion, a hill, ''An Act Further To Amend The Revenue And Audit Act, " read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion that the House go into Committee of the Whole to consider certain resolt ti.ons respectinis a measure, namely

An Act Respecting Succession Duty, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE: ----- M)l. CROSRTE · Mr. r.hairrnan, in connection with this resolution which I move that the committee adopt, the proposed bill no. 54 is being distributed to the honourable members of the House and this is a resolution that we pass

an act respecting succession duty. I believe the procedure that we have agreed or that has bee.n agreed with the honourable Leader of the Opposition, the practice is that I will just speak for a few minutes now on the purpose of this bill and that if the House approves the resolution we would later on this afternoon debate the second reading,which is the principle of the bill,and then go into Committee of the Whole on this bill and another one, the Gift Tax Act,which will also be before the·llouse. The reason why we requested the Opposition to agree to this procedure is that we have today down from Ontario, Mr. Wolf Goodwin ~092

June 12, 1972 - Tape 6 76 NB - 1 who was a tax specialist and who was re.caincd b:· the six co­ operating Provinces who are introducing this legislation to advise and assist them in the drafting of the legislation. Mr. Goodwin's therefore will be available co the House during Committee of tre Whole, if any member wants to ask any questions in connection with any particular

section of this quite complex legislation. Now the purpose of the legislation is to raise revenue for the Province. Members of the House will recall chat the Government of Canada have withdrawn from the estate tax field and the gift tax field as at the end of December 1971. They have done that because they are now imposing a capital gains tax and therefore feel that it is not necessary for them to have both estate tax and a capital gains tax, Three Provinces impose their own succession taxes, British Columbia, Quebec and Ontario. Alberta has decided not to impose any succession duty tax at all.

Being a wealthy Province, of course, it can make that decision. Unfortunately, here in Newfoundland we are not a wealthy Province. We cannot afford to surrender the measly revenue that we get frore the Succession Duty Legislation. Our experience, Mr. Speaker, our Chairman of the past few years indicates that the revenue the Province takes in directly from this legislation is only between three and four hundred thousand dollars a year.

It depends whether anybody that has a large estate dies in any particular year, or how well they have arranged their affairs that they can avoid taxes,the estate and gift Taxes, The point is and the reason why we need this legislation is that apart from the three to four to five hundred thousand dollars a year which we might collect in Newfoundland through this legislation, if we did not impose it we would have a loss, an indirect loss, through tax equalization,of about one million and a.half dollars a year,because under the tax equalization formula we would not be imposing Succession Duty Legislation nor receiving any revenue from it and therefore we will be penalized under the tax equalization formula, It also explained to the House, Mr.

Chairman, ~093 ~.

June 12, 1972 Tap~ 676 NB - 2 that the principle of adopting Succession Duty and Gift Tax Legislation was. That principle was accepted by the previous administration, who issued a statement just before the end of December 1971 to that effect. We have decided that that was the right policy in this situation and are continuing that policy, That is why the legislation is being introduced to the House . Now, it may be better, Mr, Speaker, rather than getting into more detail on the Bill, if I waited for second reading. I think that is what we have agreed upon, I would give a few more details then on second reading.

That is the general position, We would lose around $2,000,000 a year if we do not have this legislation, We cannot afford to lose $2,000,000 a year.

This legislation is similar to legislation now inacted I believe in Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island, It differs from the legis­ lation being inacted in Manitoba and Saskatchewan in that the four Atlantic Provinces have raised the exemption for estates left by one spouse to the \ other from $150,000, which will be the limit for Manitoba and Saskatchewan, to $500,000 in the four Atlantic Provinces, That is one difference between these four Provinces and the two Western Provinces, Members of the House will remember that before December 31, 1971, the Federal law was that you could leave, if an estate was left by a husband to a wife it was completely tax free, 2094

June 12, 1972. Tape 677 Page! . and under the ~ift Tax legislation you could make gift,from hus~and to wife or vice versa and there was no t11x. That is chanj!ed in the nresent legislation with the limit now it will be $500,nun for nn estate, say, left hy a husband to a wife or a wife to a husl,and. Of course when the surviving sr>0use dies it will become taxable in thei 1· hands. The Government of Canada has agreed to administer this legislation for three vears so long as the six nrovinces concerned agr ec;d on the main essentials of the legislation wh,kh we have done.

Thev ~tll he mnking a · small charge to us for administerinJ! the lepfs­ latinn. So it will not be administered by the government it will he administered by the Department of National ~evenue at Ottawa. So I therefore would ask the memhers to anprove the resolution. MR.ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, as the minister has told the Committee there have heen consultations behind the Speaker's Chair -to use that nhrase - accor<linply I also reserve such comments as 1 1,ave, renresentinP.: this side , nnti l we go into second reading.

I mav sav the unclerstandin'1' that I have I think it \s correct, we will ask unanimomi consent cif the Hciuse r,,hen, a,s11min17, the resolution goes through r.omm1ttee. For our part Pe w:!Jl consent to the necessary R.Rreement so that second readinp. wiil comi> on this ,ifternoon, and we will see how the debate f!Oes on. But what little we hflve to say will be said then. As the minister sai.d, when we were in the administration of this nrovince the then adminjstration agreed to these !\ills. Indeed I beli.eve they are uniform with the other three Atlantic Provinces.as the minister has indicated.

So there is verv little we wi.1.1 sav at this stage on them excer,t we will vote for them in Committee stave here. r,

June 12, 1972. Tape 677 Page 2. MR CHAIR¥AN: Hon. members have heard the Resolution. Shall the Resolution carry? All those in favour "aye", contrary "Nay" Carri .ed: Motion that the Committee report having passed the Resolution and recommend that a Bill be brought in to give effect to the same, carried: MR BARRY: MOTION: That it is expedient to bring in a measure, namely, "An Act Respecting Gift Tax." MR CROSBIE: ~r. Chairman, in connection with · this Resolution if we are r,otng to have a succession duty legtslatton we must also have Gift Tax legislation. The Gift Tax legislation is not a revenue producer.

AS a matter of fact I understand that the Government of Canada when it had Gift Tax legislation,the maximum revenue that was ever derived from Gift Tax was $4 million in any one year. But, we must have the legislation jf you are to have succession duty legislation because otherwise of course there will he no estatF·s. It will al 1 be given awav before the dear departed denarts, So, the purpose of the Gift Tax legislation, the Yeason we are having the Gift Tax is to prevent people just giving their property away so that they avoid succession duty.

This Gift TAx legislation is common to the six provinces that I mentioned. Bv the wav, I forgot to mention when discussing the other resolution that or:fginally .the department of National Revenue of Canada wanted t·o use Halifax as the district office to which Gift Tax and succession duty returns will be forwarded from Newfoundland. We made strong representations to the~ that we did not feel that this was the right thing,that they should use the district tax office here in St, John's. There would be great inconvenience if it all had 2096

.Tune 12, 19n Tape ~7 8 (aft e rnoon) PK - 1 MR. CROSBIE, to 11:0 to Halifax a • d delays. 1 am happy to say that the Government of Canada have agreed with that and this will all be handled, I think it is heinp, handled now through the District Tilx Office here in St. John's. So this p,ift tax legislation is complementary to this succession duty legislation. An individual will he al l owed to make gifts totallinp SlS JJOO in a year, so lonr. as the g:f_ft is not more than SS ,non to a sp,use and not more than S2,000 to any other individual.

Tn other words, if you want to give away $15,000 tax free you could make a gift of SS ,000 to your wife anrl y0u could make five other gifts of $2,000 each to individual people;there would he no tax. Rut if you p,ive more than that of course you become sul-iect to the gift tax. Now the rate on a gift tax is not accumulative. It is not like the old federal system was where in this legislation you pay tax depending on the gifts made in this year. It is not accumulative. The rate does not increase if you give 3ifts this year and mor e next year.

The rate next year does not become greater, it is not all added together to get a greater rate. ~o it is the gifts in any one year, not accumulatively,on which the gift tax rate will depend,the on gifts made hy a resident of the province. p_ift taxes So as I say, Nr. ;hairman. this is complementary to the succession duty legislation. It is necessary because we are 11:oing to have succession duty and it will put a tax or. generosity ,which is necessary for us to get our succession duty.

On motion, Resolution, in Relation to a Measure, Namely, "An Act Respecting Gift Tax", carried: On motion, that the Committee rise and report having passed the two Resolutions, Mr. Speaker returned to the Chair: ~~ BARRY: Mr. Speaker, the Committee of the Whole have considered the matters to them referred, and have direct me to report having passed two Resolutions, recommendinp; the introduction of two measures namely: 2097 .-.• ,,. r:

June 12. 1972 Tape 678 (afternoon)

(1) A Bil l , "An Act Respectinp Succession Duties. "

(2) A Rill, ''An Act Respecting Gift Tax." PK - 2 On motion, a Bill. "An Act Respectin~ Succession Duty" , read A ftrst time. ordered read a second time now, by leave· !.!!:_ CRO~!HF.: Mr . Speaker, on introducing the Bill on second readin l!, T have already I think covered most of the general ~round . The Rouse will notice, Mr. !':peakPr, that this is not a tax on the estate, it is a tax on the beneficiary hec ause tt has to he a direct tax for a province to impose it. Soi.ti.snot the same as a federal estate tax, althou~h many of the provislous are th~ same.

By the way we will have t o pay Ottawa about $15 ,000 a year to adn>inister this, that is, the h· fee to admin:1 ster the three percent of the revenue we will collect. We estimate we may collect $500,000, flo it woulct he ahout $15,0 00 . t098

June 12, 1972, Tape 679, Page 1 -- aph Once ap:ain, the main reason for us introducing this is the tax equalization reason. We are receiving large amounts of aid from Ottawa in equalization payments ,md it would he very difficult for us to turn around 001 the other h/md. apart from the revenue the es tat es. lost, and say that we were not p,oinrr to tax This legislation also, members of the House should notice, will he retroactive to January 1, 1972.

Puhlicity was given to the main features of the legislation in December and when the lepislation is passed it will be retroactive, as is the case in the other provinces. If the members just wanted to look at some of the main features of the /let, I will touch on them briefly here. We wil 1 he poing through it is committee anyway. There does not appear to be a rreat deal of controversy ..• AN HON. }fEl·'BER • ..... .. - ··----- - (Inaurlib]

e) HP. cnnsBIE : Okay, fine, rip:ht, just some of the main sections then, Hr. Speaker. This is not a topic on which you can really make much of a rousinp speech. There will he deducted in computinp, the apf(regate v;,,.lue of the pronerty of the deceased, rrr. ~peaker, in section (7), any debts that he has incurred or any encumbrances created by him, and I would liJ<-e to point out that if the capital p.ains tax is effective, and because of the death of a person there is a capital gains, that would become a debt of his estate which will reduce the value of the estate for succession duty purposes here.

There is not double taxation in that sense for that reasort. The duty is im.posed on all property of a deceased situated at the time of his death within the province, hut if the property (this is

section 9) if the property is, situated outside the province ;it the time of his death. but the successor to any of the property is a resident in the province, then duty is paid by the successor in respect of that property to which he is the successor. In other words, if the heneficiary lives in Newfoundland and 2099

June 12, 1972, Tape 679, Page 2 -- apb - the property 1 except for real estate,is located elsewhere ... AN HON. ~'E~"BER: In Liechtenstein perhaps? MP-. CROSBIE· Liechtenstein perhaps, yes, then the beneficiary here in the province pays succession duty. But, if for example a person dies here leaving real estate in New Brunswick, the tax on the real estate would be paid to the Province of New Brunswick and will not be paid to the Newfoundland Government. The beneficiaries living here will get a tax credit for the tax paid on the real estate. The exemptions are in section (12).

Estates under $50,000 are exempt, there will be no payment of duty for those estates. AN HON. }'F.!'11\EP : (Inaudible) - -- - - --· . "F. CROSBIE: -- ·-- ----· No. Successions under Sl,000 are tax exempt. The spouse's exemption is $500,000. A child's exemption, Mr. Speaker, is in section (15). If the child is wholly dependent upon his parents there is an exemption of $10,000 pl.us $1,000 for each year the child is under the age of seventy - one. The child is not a wholly dependent child 1 so the exer.iption is $10,000 plus $1,000 for each year the child is under the ap:e of twenty--siY:.

So, if you died and left a one-year old child, his exemption would be $25,000 plus 510,000: $35 , 000. In section (17) there is an exemption for residents of cooperating provinces. ~fost of the rest of the Act are technical sections tryinn to stop any loopholes. If a person dies say today, leaving his property to his wife and she -dies within twelve months 7 the succession duties the second time around would only be charged on one--half of the value of the estate, that is section (30).

The rest of the sections deal with appeals and other technical matters of that nature, mostly of interest to lawyers and to those who are about to die, which hopefulJ_y none of us is. I think that is about all I can say. When we go through committee if there are any ouestions we ••• !'ll..:.. W_.]'!.~ Before the winister sits down, could he mention, Sir, if 2100

June 12, 1972, Tape 6 79, Pa?e 3 --- apb in his opjnion K.C.Irving, for example, has been able Lo successfully avoid succession duty with repard to his li~ujn assets in New Brunswick, by movinf down to the Bahamas? "P. CROSBIE· ----- ·- That would depend, "'r. ~peak er, If I speak no~, I end the debate on second reading. ~•R. ROWE· MR. CROSBIE: . . No, this j s a question I mn aslcinp: . Well, that would depend. If rir. Irvinr; lt'f t his estate to children who are living in New Brunswick, then the estate would be taxable because the tax is on beneficiaries residinp in the province. I do not believe that Mr.

Irvinp: 's I!!ove do~m to the Bahamas is dictated, only he knows for sure of course, but it is nrobahly dictated less J-,y the succession duty legislation than it is by the new federal income tax legislation. ~!R. TlOWF · c'll._. C'POSBIE · !1P. TlOBERTS · - -• ------· In the capital gains asrect? Yes. Nr. Speaker, the l11cid exp] anation and exposition of the minister has convinced us on this side to vote for the legislation at second reading,and we will.

As the minister said in his remarks here in the previous committee stage, Sir, there are two reasons why thii:; legislation in my opinion should po on the statute books.The first is the revenue to be raised and as the minister said it is not so much the revenue that will come from the succession duty imposed by this lepislation nor from the revenue to be raised by the comnlementary tax to be imposed by the p:ift tax, but rather from the equalization payments which accrue to }lewfoundland under the arrangel"ents with the r,overnment of Canada . . ~s I recall it, the minister might correct me if I am wrong, the r,_overnment of Canada say that they will pay equalization on a per capita basis of the population of the province, sufficient to bring Newfoundland's tax yields up to the established standards across Canada, which I believe is the numerical average, the numerical mean of the provincial tax yields from specified tax fields.

Any province ~101

June 12, 1972, Tape 679, Page 4 -- apb which does not levy tax at at least the standard rate loses very substantially. That is how a half million dollars of successj _on duties could cost this province one and a-half million dollars on emmliza tion p.:rants. Fror.i the n•venue point of view, there is a very real reason whv this lef!islation shou] d ?O ;i_head. I submit too, \I-fr. ~peak er, that from a social policy point of view, this legislation is good legislation. Perh;,ps H is sip-nificant that today, ~f I am judge of the temper of the House,we are not going to ha.ve a lengthy debate.

We may tempt some honourable and part1.cularly learned members of the House to their feet to enter into this. When succession duty or estate tax wns first introduced in England about sixty years ago, Lloyd C.eorge's people's budget, it just about broui,ht the constitution tottering to the ground. There were two i,eneral elections fought on it and the f'inance bills in the British House of Commons went on for the better part of a year or over a year. ThRt is a nrecedent that the Opposition might do well to heed. "r.

Lloyd r,eorr,e was the Chancellor of the Fxchequer, the Finance ~Ainis ter. he hroup.;ht his budget resolutions in early in 1909 and it was so!l'etire in 1910 before they were carried at the committee stage. Then the cl er-ate began at the second readinr,. The obi ection in the main was to such things as the death duties which Lloyd r.eorr.e introduced as a deliberate social measure to cut down the amount of wealth which could be passed by inheritance from one generation to another.

I have wealthy friends, Sir, who object to that type of legislation and I suppose if I had any wealth I would obj.ect to it as well, but I do think, Sir, that it is a good t~ing in social policy that fathers cannot pass on unlimited wealth to sons and that wealth in e1tch generation must pay a price to the society frotn which the wealth is made. 2102

June 1.2, 1972. Tape 679, Page 5 --- 11p1' That is why I hope that 1 for example, K.C.lrvinf does not succeed in beating succession duties. An earlier example in Canada was Mr. E.P.Taylor who established residence at Lyford Cay in the Bahamas. rAr. Taylor I think at the time was quite open about it. I do not know if he said so specifically, but he went through all the steps necessary to change domicilian law. 2103

June 12, 1972 Tape 68() JH -- 1 I never understood how rules could have been drawn ur mainly to cover a marriage that had been legally entered into in Paris , consummated in Belgium between people who lived in England and in the Netherlands, how those rules governed where one lived at law in the term of domicile but they. do as Your Honour knows. However, Mr. E.1'. Taylor was quite open in a round-about way about his intention to beat the death duties, the estate taxes, as they then were. I hope he does not succeed, Sir, and I speak not in law hut again on the social policy. Mr. Taylor and for that matter Mr.

Irvinp made this money in Canada. I think that they should be willing and indeed glad to repay part of it to society when they die. The exel!lptions outlined by the minister, the half million dollars which has become standard throughout the Atlantic Provinces. I think it is a very generous exemption.

A husband can pass to a wife a half million dollars without incurring any estate tax, I feel, Sir, that ther e are really very few Newfoundlanders who in point of practise will have to worry a.bout this even with insurance.A half million dollars is a very larr;e estate indeed. 1 do not know if the minister has any figures but I doubt if there have been very many estates ever probated in Newfoundland with a value of - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) . MR. ROBERTS: And that was attached at levels far below the half ~illion dollar·exemption in this hill.

So I do not think it will hit,to use the phrase of the late Bill Keough, it will not hit that last forgotten fisherman out on the Bill of Cape St. George. Indeed probably the only people who will benefit really from this legislation, Sir, I submit are the lawyers. It is a great make-work bill for them because any man now with any amount of property at all, $50,000 in the case of passing to sons and lesser amounts in the case of the gifts taxes, any man in that position would be well advised to 2104

June 12, 1972 Tape 680 JM - 2 consult his friendly solicitor. I notice all the learned meJT1bers of the House looking at me as if I am either giving away the game or if I am about to be charged before theBencherswith coJT1mercial huckstering of the trade. It will create some work for lawyers and I suppose that is a good thing. My colleague from Bell Island is not here to second that aspect of it. He is very big on lawyers, very hig indeed on them. Hut, Mr. Speaker, it is a very simple hill. It is a standard hill. It is uniform.

When we were in the ministery we said we would bring it in and the succeeding administration has the wisdom to confirm our views so we will have no trottble at all votinp. fnr it on second reading. On motion, a bill, ''An Act Respectinr Succession Duty,., read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole !louse now, by leave. ~otion, that the House go into Committee of the Whole on bill. •'An Act Respect inf! Sttccession Duty:" MR. MARfT-JALL : Hr.

Speaker, perhaps we might go on to r 1,e gift tax one before it is actually referred to a Committee of the Hhole. !!R..:.._ SPEAKF:!1-: It is moved and seconded that Bill No. 53, "An Act Resrc,·•. l:1 1• Gift Tax,"be now read a second time. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I rise to move second reading of the bill. I have already spoken on it in the resolution stage and explained the purpose of the bill. I think I have also had a few words on the main provisions of the bill.

There are necessary sections in the legislation to cover the loopholes with respect to gifts or making a gift through a corporation controlled by one individual and the rest of it. The usual •rules are present in the Act. The liability for tax is in sect:1.on (9) where a donor who is a resident JT1akes gifts in any year, he shall ha.veto pay tax in respect ~105 ,..._,

June 12, 1972 Tape 680 of the p,ifts made in that year, calculated in accordance with

Schedule (1) on the basis of the aggregate taxable value of gifts made by him in that year. If a donor who is not a resident makes r.:ifts in any vear of real property situated within the province, then the tax is also paid in this province. If a donor who is not a resident in the province makes gifts of property that are located in the province to somebody who lives outside the province,they would not he taxahle hut if it is real property they would he. So it is a tax on the donor who is a resident in the province. The exemptions are given in section (11) on the computation of taxable value.

As I have already said,you can give up to i;15,0()0 in any one year without paying taxes, iiS, 000 to your srmuse, up to i.2 ,000 to any other individuals and that is about all in that section. The returns have to he made every vear. If you make gifts in excess nf S2,000 in value you have to make a return to the Department of Rational Revenue. The other sections are concerned with assessments ancl appeals from assessments ;me! so on. Under section (35) where a donor fails to pav the tax then the donee is responsible for paving it as long as the donee is resicJent in the province.

T do not think there i :-; anything unusual JM - 3 c1bont the nis t of the provisions in the b:111 . So as I sav, this is not r,oinr to produce much revenue because people will avoid paying gift tax by making sure they do not give away too much money hut it is very necessary to have it if we are to have succession duties. MR. ROllERTS: Again, Mr. ~peaker, thP.re is not very much needs to he saicl. The philosophical messap,e of the hill we accept without any difficulty at all, indeed 1 think we would he very upset if this legislation were not to come in,.

The technical aspects of it were either dealt with by the minister or,out of sufficient complexity, I think most members of the House will rely upon the exnerts, t106

June 12, 1972 Tape 680 JM - 4 particularly in the knowledge that it is uniform legislation. Finally, as I said, the people who wil 1 he hap!)iest about this are the lawyers. '!'he people who will be unhappy, there will be some accountants who will be happy too beca11se fir,urinr out thi' u1xes according to the formula (1) reproduced in the schedules to these bill, there is a hit of an excerise in mathematics. Th"' only people who will be unhappy are the people who are quite we]l off and who really think of givinp; away more than $15,800 a year.

Hell, Sir, when in Newfoundland a person has more than $15,000 a year to pive away qS opposed to $15,000 a year for income,when he has that sort of monev to give away he will be concerned about this but l really do not think that we in the House need to get that concerned about him. He will have a problem. He will complain about high taxes and he may try to move to Nassau or he may try to move to wherever you go to avoit~ these taxes but I do not think that anybodv in the province is goinp to fee] that his case is very meaningful when one comes to consider the other needs of the people of this province.

So we will r,o along with the hill. The fact that it does not produce any revenue does not make us any happier because listening to the }'finister of Finance talk one realizes that the province needs revenue and listening to all the petitions that are brought in frol!l time to time one realf .zes where the revenue could go if it were available. So we will support the bill, Sir. We will support it without any hesitation at all. On motion, a bill"An Act Respecting C.ift Tax," read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House now, by leave. COMMITIEE OF THE WHOLE: 2107 . .... ,

June 12, 1972 Tap_e no. 681 Page 1 - MRW Mr• Crosbie. Mr. Chairman, before vou start, I wonder if the House would concur, I have Mr. Goodwin here whom I would like to invite into the House in case there are any questions that need technical ski.11 to answer, If it is all right with the honourable members of the House, I will have him sit by me here· when it is p;oing through committee. ~ ~_!9BERTS~ Mr. Chairman, a number of us are fans of Mr. Goodwin. It is Mr. Wolfe Goodwin, Q. C,, is it not? MR. CROSBIE: Yes, MR.

ROBERTS: We are fans of h.is through the Canadian Tax Journal and other maRs circulation which some of us read in our lip,hter moments. HR. CROSBIE: I mip.ht say, Mr. Chairman, that we arranged for Mr. Goodwin to meet with the Board of TraJe this morning to help allay their misapprehensions about the bU l. l1R. ROBERTS: The brief -·- ------ MR. CROSBIE: Oh, no the brief is still here. Of course it has gotten brief attention. He is r,oi.ng to meet tomorrow with some lawyers or whatever lawyers are interested to review the matter with him. MR.

MURPHY: Is the hon, member for Bell Island going to be invited to that meeting? MR. NEARY: MR. CROSBIE: That was the Welfare Rights Committee - Not yet. That can he arranged, A bill, "An Act Respectinr, Succession Duty," MR. _M~: Mr. Chal rman, clause 4, would the minister explain why "dona tio mortis causa" - it has been a long time since first year "R~al Propertv" with Albert Able, MR. CROSBIE: .Just remember whHt that :Is ,Mr, Chairman. "Donatio mortis causa" ts a gift that becomes effective on the death of a person.

Therefore, on the death of a person, if he has made a gift earlier which becomes effective on his death, it will be included in the value of his property. ~i(l8

June 12, 19.72 Tape no. 681 Page 2 MR. ROBERTS: - intention of the person giving the gift, donatlo tHortis causa? MR. CROSBIE: It must be self-evident, MR, ROBERTS: No, the death is self-evident. flow al,out. the intention? This could be crucial. ~~-~_ROSB~~ As a matter of iact, it would be determined by the court. MR. HICKMAN: Clause 4, page 14, 1 move that th,, · nrcls "or held" be deleted on line four, On motion C'lause 4 ;i5 amended, carried . _MR. _ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, clause 7 may be as good a place as anv to ask it,Mr.

Chairman, although it is not specificallv related to clause 7, There has h£•en some discussion T hel ieve, particularlv in British Columbia, arising out of the Wood,rnrd Est;ite. I flm not sun• I grasp the technical point in its entirety but basica]Jy what I am wondering: Are disposi t'ions on df'a th to charitable ins ti tut ions fully deductible under this? It is here s,)mewhere hut T confess l have not annotated my copy of the hill. Perhaps the minister could saY a word or two.

MR, CROSBIE: In Section (16), a gift to a recognized charitable organization is deductible but there is a difference between this and the Estate Tax Act. For example, let us say that You are leaYinr. $500,0()0 and you left Memorial $100,000, the tax rate that applies to your estate is based on an estate of $500,000. In this act here, the charitable gift is not deducted from the value of the estate to arrive at the tax rate. In the Federal Estate Tax Act, the rate would be based on $400,000 of that situation and not on the $500,000, if you get what I mean.

There is a difference there, The gift to charity is n0t taxed but it•is included in the estate to get the tax rate. The $400,000 that did not go to charity would pav a higher tax rate because 2109

June 12, 1972 Tape no. 681 Page 3 Mr. Crosbie. the estate was $500,000 originally. But the gift to the charitable organization itself pays no tax. l'fR , ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, that may be the matter which lead to the difficulty. I do not quarrel with it.

I do not know why it is done, For example, if I had an estate of $500,000 (It is an unlikely eventually I assure you) and decided to leave it all to a charitable organization, (i.e.,a home for homeless pussy cats, which was recognized and all that) I would then be liable for tax on $450,000 because the basic deduction would be $50,000 and assuming that my death expenses had been prepaid and yet if I had left the entire estate to the home for homeless pussy cats, it would reduce the amount presumably paid to charity. There would have to be a charge against the estate. Is there some reason in policy why it is so?

There must be one. What is the reason? It is a Rood nr1estion. l1R. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, the philosophy b'ehind this change is that it was felt by the people who drafted this legislation that the ability of the estate to pay tax was determined by the gross value of the estate and not bv the fact that so much is goini to be left to charity and therefore the tax rate should be based on the gross value of the estate despite the fact that some of it was being left to a charity. That is the thinking behind it. That is why the change was made.

In other words, this estate has the ability to pay a higher rate than an estate that had lesser value even though some of it is being given to a charity. MR. ROBERTS: Could the min:lster expound on the philosophy? I am neither a charity nor do I expect to have an estate of such value to attract this sort of interest. But I am quite intri gued. This must be the point then that the Woodward Estate .- there is a te.rrific row on with Premier Bennett in British Columbia about the Woodward one. The last 2110

,June 12, 197'2 Tape no . 681 T heard of it, it was headed to the Supreme Court out the re . Pe rhaps thi;, minister coulcl tell us - obvi.ously an estate that ha,; 11 ltir of money vou will sav, "we wi.ll tax it, it: ,·1rn bP.ar it ." There c oul t. b, ~ome discrirrrlna rion ap.ains t chad ty. 'l'o take an examp I e other than the 01w I took, Mr. Chairman: lf the estate w1•re <;<;o!J,000 t,11d 1 lE>ft $300 ,()()0 w a charity, it :is possihle, lf ir we re no t clr:~fred prope rly, tha r I he enctre_ tax_ on $500,000 wo uld h,Ne to be paid out of rhe $200 ,()0() resJdue.

The chari cymight get the ir $300 ,000 our of thl' firsl h !te of the apple. Perhaps the mi.nisU)r cnu.ld tell 01a - ? NR. t:RoSH rn: - --· -· -- Pirst .the Woodward !::state cnsce had to do wit h whetlwr n r not the Woodward Foundation was a charitable ~111

June 12, 1972 Tape . 682 NB - l organisation or not, In this instance here, the instance you mentioned, what would happen is this: Let us say the estate was $500,000 and $100,000 is left to Memoria~ the tax rate applied to the $400,000 part not left to a charity will be the tax rate based on an estate of $500,000. So that higher rate would be applied to the $400,000, AN HON. MEMBER: So $400,000 would have to bear the tax for $500,000 unless you reduce the $100,000 proportionately. MR. CROSBIE:, No.

Its tax is paid at a higher rate than if the estate had only been $400,000, Now, we did get a Brief from Memorial University on this because it will have a tendency to discourage. There is less cause to leave some money to charity if the legislation being as it is , Memorial University has presented us with a Brief which we took up with the other Provinces and they are willing to consider that. It cannot be changed this year but it is going to come up for discussion, The effect of this is that it is less attractive to leave some money to a charity because the tax rate on the rest of the estate is higher.

The effect is not as bad as the one the hon. member suggests. In other words it is felt that the estate is $SQO,OOO. The tax rate applied to it should be based on the $500,000 estat e . This should be looked at because it is going to dis~ourage. AN HON. MEMBER: In audible, MR. W. ROWE: On Clause 11, Mr, Chairman, I realise of course that we, when we were in the Administration,made a public announcement to the effect that we were going to go along with this Bill. I would like to hear from the minister, if I could, some of the philosophy behind the fact that according to

Schedule I, the SO per cent is the maximum take from an estate which starts I believe on estates over $300,000, Now, why was that cut off point in percentage terms reached? Why not go on with a proportionate increase, the larger the estates gets? Generally speaking what is the whole philosophy behind it? Was this just an arbitrary figure grabbed and agreed to by the 2112

June 12, 1972 . Tape 682 NB - 2 Provinces concerned? Was any thought gj ven to the fact that perhaps there would be a limit on the amount of money which <.:Ol1ld in fact he left i-o successors.

For example, the McGovern Doctrine in the Untted States,if it ever comes into law which is highly problematical is that no person shall be able to inherit more than $500,000 or, I am not sure about this, no person dying will be able to leave in total more than $500,0011, which strikes me as pretty good social thinking , the idea that some son or daughter or nephew or friend or anyone else can get an unearned amount of money of millions and millions of dollars.

Now that is not likely to happen here in Newfoundland but in some of the larger Provinces of Canada and the United States , it could happen that people could inherit an unearned amount of millions and millions and millions of dollars, money which was pre­ sumably made in the society, money which, a large proportion of which certainly should go back to the government, to the state to the province or the Federal Govenment whatever the case might be, so that it could be used for some good social purpose. So perhaps the minister would like to comment on this. Why the cut off of 50 percent?

Was any thought given to a limitation on the amount of money could in fact be inherited? MR. CROSBIE: Well, ~r. Chairman, I do not think there has been any thought given to the latter. If the hon. gentleman's suggestion were adopted you would come into this world with nothing and when you went out you will be able to leave nothing. You would come in naked and you would certainly go out naked. AN HON. MEMBER: You cannot take it with you, MR. CROSBIE: You cannot take it with you, but if the minister's suggestion were adopted,you would not be able to leave any behind you either.

MR.W ROWE: A half a million, that is a lot of money. MR CB-.Q~BIE: The philosophy behind this was the same as the Carter Commission Report, in •the old Estate Tax Act, I think the highest rate went to fifty per cent. The Carter Commission recommended fifty per cent. The new Income Tax, I believe, Federal Income Tax, the highest rate is 2113

June 12, 1972 Tape 682 NB - 3 I think, 60 per cent. So it is in line with that thinking. I suppose, that you are going to damage your accumulation of capital, etc,, and partly on the fact that the various provinces had to agree on this. I have no doubt that Manitoba and Saskatchewan 1as ls evident from the exemptions 1wanted to take a much bigger gouge than the four Atlantic Provinces which have Liberal and Conservative Governments. This :l.s just a question of social philosophy. We do not believe, yet anyway, that you should not be permitted to leave anything to your descendents, sons or daughters and so on.

The rate is being set at 50 per cent,which is still a very considerable amount of money, It can have a very serious effect on small and medium size businesses and the rest of it, That is the reason. If Canada eventually becomes a Socialist Republic, such as Russia or Bulgaria or Hungary, of course, then you \ will not be able to leave anything or very little. While no douht we are trending in that way, it is still a while off yet. MR. W.

ROWE: The minister might be interested to hear that Senator McGovern thought he was on to a hot social issue when he talked about $500,000 as a cut off, but some poles indicated to , him that even the lowest income earners in society in no way wanted that to happen, He could only deduce that everybody in the United States lives in anticip­ ation that they are going to win a million or a two million dollar lottery at some po~nt in the future. MR. HICKMAN: Clause 12, Mr.

Chairman, on page 26 the side note should read deduction of duty to one-half and I move that the word "to" - if it does not have to be amended I draw the committee's attention to it so that it can be included, MR. ROBERTS: I am not sure. I do not know if it has to be amended, Mr. Chairman. 2114

June 12, 1972 Tape 682 NB ~ 4 MR. ROWE: It should be changed anyway . MR, ROBERTS: Let us change it then. Your honour can stay up tonight inscribing it. MR. HICKMAN: Clause 23, clause 2(c). I move that the words :In lint two "making of the gift" be deleted and substituded therefor the words, "death of the deceased," "death of the deceased". Immediately before "the makin~ of the gift" the MR ROBERTS: In other words, if ·he disposed of the control of the operation, he would be able to get off scott free, with the amendment. MR llJ;CJ<MAN: Except for the gift tax.

MR RQBF.RTS : Except for th2 gift tax, yes, which might be less than the dP.ath duties, possibly. If the minister could say a word ~ there must be a reason for it, Poor Austin Parsons is blamed for more sins, you know, it is unfair. \ Anyway, when I am a deceased I do not plan to be contesting the words in the statutes, On motion Clause 23, as amended, carried: On motion Clauses 24 through 29 cartied: ~~115

June 12, 1972 Tape 6B3 (afternoon) PK - 1 On motion clauses ZY ~trough 37 carried. NR • HICKMAN : On Clause 38, page 39, on the second line I move that -~----- after the word "deceased'' to insert the followinp: words"or information provided to the minister'·.

"Where the Minister is made aware of property of a deceased Un this suhsection referred to as 'new property· ) that was not disclosed as property of the deceased in returns filed hv the execub•r of the dec~ased or by successors of property of the deceaserl or information provided to the Hinister on the hasis of which the "inister made any previous assessments, 11 in other ,,,ords, I presume incorrect informatjon. MR. ROflERT~: -----· - - --- Mr.

Chairman, the subject seems to he ·'the Minister is made aware of property of a deceased that was not disc1osed as property of the deceased in returns filed by the executor of the deceased or by successors. then there is sort of another ohject in. ~. J-llCKJl!AN: '·successors of property of the deceased or information provjded hy the M-f.n:lster on the hasis." MR. RORERTf:: I am not going to press it, I will never have to interpret it, Your Jlonour. I say without punning at all, the syntax seems a little interestinr. MR.

CROSJllE: II it was not disclosed as property of the deceased in returns file or in :Information provided to the Minister." That is what it is suppose to mean. On motion Clause 38 as amended, carried. nn motion Clauses 39 and 40 carried. ~~- _F}.£.IQ:'!~B_:_ Clause 41 (1), Nr. Chairman, I move the third word in line two ., "income" and the word •·valu~" tn be substituted therefore. That would appear to be a drafting error. On motion amendment carried.· On motion Clause 41(1) as amended carried. 'IR . l!ICK."IAN • Clause 4 3, raF"e 43, Sub clause (14) after the word ''may" ~~ 116

.Tuhe 12, 1972 ·:ape 6A1 (afternoon) PK - ;> ~m. HTCKt lAN· on the second line . T r,ove th e ins e>r·ti on of the word -· - ----- ' conf i.rm, •' nn mot1on Clause l13 as amended carr i e<l. On rrotion Clauses 44 throu ph 57 ca rri ed. \fR , HTCK~'AN· Clause 58, page 55, 58 (

b) t he s c·con.1 line J 1nnve the deletion of the words "The Supreme Court " :md sn1' s t i tute therefore t he "'ords ··a co urt .,. On motion Cla us e 5~ a s a mended carrie d. Clause fil, pa p;e 5 7, CJause f-1(1) rlH' s econ<l llne T move the followinr. words 1'e deleted ,·not exce 0·dinP thirty day:.:. fairly 01'vio11s. yc,11 cannot havP a furth"r perioc1- On motion Clause 61 as amended carriPd.

Th11t f s '·'R. 1ncrr1·•.~·l· Clause li5, on the end of that clause it should he "forty-ni.nP · inste;icl of '"f,,rty- eipht' ' and T move that "forty­ eight · 1'e d .. leted and "forty-nine•· he sul ,st i tuted therefore, On motion Clause fi5 as a.mended carried, ~•R.

JHCKMAN · Clause 70, on pare li2, 1 move that the follow1 n!1' clause he added to he ~uhclause (7), that ~ill he 77. ln an inquiry made 1m<ler Subsecti.nn (3) "any successor to property of a decease<l whos e succession or .liahility for duty is the subject of the inquiry, and anv witness c11.lled to give evidence in the inquiry, may be represented hy council and the successor may, personally or through council, cross-examine any ~,[ tness called to give evidence in the inquiry." And on the side note is recommended that it will read Right to counsel and cross-examine, " MR. JlOHr.RTS: ~Ir.

Chairman, the amendrnen t rather improves this

section but I think T should point out,if you like,and the Finance ~inister can comment if he wishes, these are relatively standard types of sections, similar ones will be found in many statutes of the province. T,ast year,as I recall it, Sir, the House was dehating some amendments 2117 .. ,

.June 12. 1972 Tape 683 (afternoon) PK - 3 ~IR. R_ommrs: to labour lep,islation, Minimum Wage and Vacatinn Hith "ay Acts . At that ti.me the mini.ster was on this side of the House and he was quite eloquent ahout it, and T thought with great or considerAble merit in his argume nts . T. was on that s:f.de sponsorinJ? the 1ei:is lat ion,as I recall it. lie was quite eloquent in agruments ar,ainst this type of requirement hecauae in effect it requires a perso n to produce a great deal of information so forth and so on.

Now Tam not goinJ? to make a long speech. it could be made about thP. rtpht t i' pi;otecti.on fi:om self-crimination and ao f orth. Tlut T vonder if the mjnister would say a word or two on it, if he wishes. rm. CRO~<;fiIE: ~11! • ROBF.RTS : Inaudible . Not to them that :ls fine . But as I said, last year. Sit:, the mini11ter in a different capacity was quite eloquent ap,ainst this sort of sec t•ion and J, found myself in a position <>f defendln i:i it. Now he i.s in n posj tion of spon!lotinr, lenisla tion ' requi ri1•p, these things. T wonder if he wants to say 2118

June 12, 1972 . Tape 684. Pap E- 1 . a word or two, the amendment introduced by the minister of Justice certainly does make some improvement by guaranteeing a right to counsl"l. But the fact remains that a person stil 1 can ! e required to produce all sorts of books, records, writinps, or other document s so forth and so on. MR.r.ROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, I think t? ere is a great deal 1n what the honourable gentleman said. The point here~ think is that it is very ra:e for this procedure to be used.

Lt does not mean there should not be safeguards, but these enouiries are v"r:v unusualnroceedingR, and would only be held if there is strong evidence that there iR some devious scheme of tax evasion and avoidance going on. There mip.ht have to be an enquiry into that. Of c.onrse, as the House knows, ~1r. Chairman, the puhlic policy in recent years seems to he not that the onus is on the state to nrove that vou owe taxes or should pay them hut it is the other way around. This in part jR a reflection of it. So, I can only say that I do not think there is any serious dangers in this section.

You do have a ri!,!ht of counsel. Bt•t in tax matters which are extremelv complicated it is sometimes necessary when a devious method of tax evasion has been worked out, not tax avoiding so much as tax evasion,that these nowers are necessary. fhey are in the Federal Tax Legislation. Of course they are reflected in this Act here now. I would be surprised if this is used at all in Newfoundland but it might be necessary.

MR.ROBERTS: Mr, r.hairman, I do not intend to i,ress the minister because of course the answer he gave is essentially the one which I gave last year, that these powers are necessarv,At the same time I think it should be no~ed that there i~ an inconsistencv in his position. I think he is right 1 in administering this and much other legislation, this is necessary, but it may point up the need,Mr. Chairman, this clause may point up the need for something which I never got done when I was in the ministry but when I get back there it will be done. That is three or 2119

June 12, 1972. Tape 684. Page 2. four years away, The present ~inister of Justice and the present Minister of Finance would, I do not expect to be back and forth as quickly as the nnister of Finance. He has heen in a number of minist ,ries, , number of positions, doubtless more yet to come. But, HR.CROSBIE: Social Credit next time - MR.ROBERTS: Well, I believe the minister would go Social Credit Sir, if nohodv else would happen 1 and that may happen too. But, Mr, Chairman, as I was saying perhaps the present ~inister of Finance and the present Minister of Justice could look at this question.

It is true not only o~ tax law that the onus has been put more and more upon the individual citizen who has against him all the resources of the state. It is true in many many branches of administrative law, it may make administration easier, indeed it may he the only condition on which administration is possible. But the fact remains more and more in this House and in every House across Canada, in Ottawa, the Parliament of Canad:'!. etc.etc. etc., more arid more the state is infringing upon the right~- Mr, Trudeau did verv well when he said the state has no place in the bedrooms of the nation.

I submit that the minister has little place in the bedrooms of the province. But that is not a matter of the minister. Presumably it is a matter of good taste. Certainly in my case it is a matter of choice, is it not, as a bachelor. Mr. Chairman, I ,h:, not want to press the minister because he gave the answer that any minfster would have given in the position. But nonetheless it is a serious problem.

It is one that is going to go on and I thfnk perhaps the answer is a general statute governing all of these rules, in effect sayi~g to the state ,that they shalt not use they powers unilaterally, arbitrarily and unreasonably, giving the average citizen some right to fight back. Perhaps when the lawyers talk about legal aid,Sir, in the traditional forms in which citizens 2120

June 12, 1972, Tape 684. Page 3. run afoul of the law, the criminal law and what have you, they might extend it a little further and get into this whole ;ange of administrative law. I submit, Sir, that you can have your ri1!hrs taken 2w11v ;ust as effectively by these tribunals and by thes,· ministerial actions, indeed as we all know ministerial action is usually bv a clerk, for the action of an under clerk or the fourteenth assistant to the deputv, to the assistant, to the associate, to the deputv minister who advises the minister.

Perhaps all of us who are at the bar and are concerned with the st things should look further. Mv colleague from \,hi te llav South has pnlnted out in earlier debates in this present sesid on a number of nrovis1ons. I do not b1;1me the ministrv, the draftsmen do them. 'fhev are standard, thev are routine, they are boiler plate. But, Sir, the nroblem is there, when the honourable gentleman was over here last year he was quite eloquent about it. It was more than the N.T.A legislation Mr.

Chairman, it was legislation with respect: to amendments ' to the Minimum Wage A:t the Vacation \~ith Pay Act, a number of those, I recall it because I was introducin~ them in place of Bill Keough who at that stage was absent from the House. I am not sure if he died as of then, but indeed was not in his place to sponsor the legislation, The present minister raised the point, I think he did it we] 1. As he sa:·s now, he is man enough to admit the argument still have merit.

What I am reallv suggesting to the ministry 1 Sir, in respect of thi5 clause is that thev might wish to look at legislation covering the entire problem, I think it would be far more important than a lot of the things that we looked at, Of course they could go a lot further and do something about the incredible power of the so-called self­ governing societies 7 one of which I ·.-,m a member in allegedly good standing 1unless the benchers have written me out since the most recent meeting. I notice the law clerk looks up at that, perhaps the law clerk 2121

.June 12, 1972 . Tape 68l1. Pap.e 4. could defend me, r mi~h t need a defence. Mr . ChairmaC1, this is a problem , a]l I can do is brin~ it to the at tent 1.on of the Committee. r suspect the minister 1':hare.s my v:!ews. J susoect even the Minister of .Justice share!! my v:fews. I do hooe thev will do something ahout it . MIL HIC:Kl-'AN: r move Mr. Chai ,man, that Clauses 79 & 80 be rer vmbe r ed 80 E, 81. l have another amendment to fo How to insert a cla use 79 . ~r . Chairman, I move that the new Cla 11se 79 read as follows:

Section 47 of the R<nenue & Audit Act shall muta t :fs mutandis shall, mutatis mutand1s, ,mply i n resr>ect of any dutv , :Interest or penal tv Jfithin the mennin g of thls Act . MR. ROllER'l'$: :::ecti on ~ i' of the Revenue Act says offhand - }IR, CROS!UE: This :Is the J'lect'l.on that pertains to reven ues betni rece ived hv the provi nce, same laws t hat fip r,lv to revenues ' heinp. received under this Act. MR.FOllERTS: There are a number of sec: t ions of the Revenue 1'\nd Audit Ac:t revenues hei np. received - thnt is the whole point of the Audit Act.

The hono urab J e gentleman has t wo expert adv:fsers could one of them. the Comm:! ttee will be sitting for a few minutes, coul d one of them novel out and get

Section 47. of the - Cla use 80 : t 122 Or get the office consolidation

June 12 1972 Tape 685 (afternoon) PK - 1 AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. ---- MR. CROSBIE: There have to be regulations. There wil; be rerulatiom; uncler the Act but it will come into effect as soon as the Lieutenant- Governor signs it. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. - ---- --- }IR, CROSBIE: Yes. It is not done by proc]amation. On motion Clause 81 carried. On motion

Schedule I and

Schedule II carriec1. MR. CROSBIE: -·--------- I have to point out to the Hom;e that it took Fiscal Studies two days to work out this calculation. 1 n1•0•an to check it, not to work it out. MR. ROBERTS: Inaudihle. ------- HR. CROSBIE: Yes, I think that 1'1r. Goodwin was there while that was beinp corrected. In fact he is doinp a paper on it now. }IR. ROBERTS: I must say'· this is certainly four year planninf! with a vengeance, It will take them four years to work it out. On motion, A Ri.11, ·

An Act Respecting Succession Duty.'' ~--- f_~O.SllTE~ Mr. Cl).airman, Section (47) of the Revenue and Audit Act has to do with remission of forfeitures, penalities etc. The Lieutenant­ Governor in Council may,whenever they deems right and conductive to the puhli.c good ,remit any duty or toll payable to Her 'fajesty ,imposed by

an Act of the Legislature. So this deals with, forfeiture or remission of penalty. MR. ROBERTS: In other words the government have the power to remit succession duties pr certain aspects of it. MR. CRnSBIE: No, the forfeiture of, not the dutv itself. Motion that the committee report having passed the Bill with some amendments, carried: A Bill, "An Act Respecting Gift Tax." (Bill No. 53). MR. HICK'1AN: - ------ Clause 2, page 6. After (rJ there be added,first there be excluded the words "any estate" on the bottom line of that 2123

June 12, 1972 Tape 685 (afternoon) PK - 2 ~1R. HTCKMAN: page, ''any eatntc or in'' from there to the end. The words, "any estate or interest in any such action or right of any kind whatsoever in any chosen action." I move that these words be deleted and there be substituted therefore, (i) "any estate or interest in any such property, a rif,ht of· any kind whatever and a chosen action," and "(i,_) money." MR. ROBERTS: NR. HIC¥J.lAN : Inaudible. That is right. MR. ROBERTS: I kno·,• at least of one Finan ce Minister who once said what capital gains be paid of his entire estate'was in money.

It would he a sizable estate. l•ut. u.lCl.~Ji.~~. Claus~ 2 (aD.) (ii)., I ~ovc the car.an.a be <le.leted. Jt ,.,i 11 be comprised in the income right. Hhy did they take that out, anyway? "'IR. ROBERTS: (aa) (i) :Is the same thing. The income right guess is defined, is it? nn motion Clause 2 as amended carried. ''Ill. HT.CV.MAN: Clause q, page 14, Mr; Chairman, after the word "made' ' ---- - - in the second last line, I move the insertion of the words ''hy him., . 0n motion Cla11se 9 as amended carried. MR. HICKMAN: (,la use J J , Mr. Chairman, 1 mave the insertion, (

g) to read as follows: •·i!:ifts made to a person by a donor in any year . where the aggregate value of those gifts made to that nerson by that donor in that year does not exceed /;100. •· On motion Clause 11 as amended carried. HR. CHAIRMAN, Clause 12, on pap;e 15, Clause 12(

a) I move the deletion of the word · persons" and substituting therefore the word "individuals. ' ' It will now read"in the case of gifts made to individuals." On motion Clause 12 as amended carried, ~rn. PICKMAN, Clause 19 (1) I move that after the word "dollars" in the second line there he inserted the following words,"but not including in that aggregate the value of gifts exempt under paragraph (

g) of, 2124

J une l :>., 1972 Tape 685 (afternoon) MR ._ ll_T_f,KMAN· Sect ton 1.1. That i.s the p11r.ar.r11ph wt> 111st put in. On mn tion Clause l <l as amended ca rri.ecl . _tlR .___.!Q._C:KMAN· <:lause 24 (2) line three T move the <lel.e tion of the word ''conclusively . ·· On motion Clause 21, as amended carried. ~ .Jl]:CKMA.!'..:. nn Claui;e 28, I move the delct1nn of the word ·conclusively . " On motion Clause 28 as amended carried. 11~ H_I_y_l01AN..:_ Cla use 31, subclause (14) on pape 26, I movP that after the word may" , 2125 PK - 3

June 12, 1972 Tape 686 JM -· 1 :>1r. Hickman: the word, "Confirm," be included, added. On motion, Clause (31) as amended, carried. MR. ROBERTS: I really think we should have fourteen here. Perhaps Your Honour could count but you cannot count Mr. Goodwin and Mr. Avery until they are elected. MR. CHAIRMAN : Will the clerk please count the members? The members having been counted and there being fourteen present there is a quorum. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order, it appears to me the Law Clerk was out askinp. whether there were any members in the hall. If so, is this part of his duties? MR CHAIRMA ...

"l : I do not think that this is a point of order. MR ROBERTS: It is. I wonder if Your Honour would,call in the Speaker then, because the Law Clerk's duties are to advise Your Honour on law. If in fact the Law Clerk, Sir, was out in that hall suggesting the members, he they ministers, of debate come in,. I sugr-est he is without his terms of reference as Law Clerk of this J!ouse, Sir. MR CROSBIE: If the Law Clerk were out or not - I tlo not think, Mr. Chairman, that it is proper for his conduct to he called into question like this.

If the Law Clerk were out and said to any member that they should get into the House, what difference would it make? The House should have a quorum in any event. !'!!l _ _l_WAl'IS: I saw the Law Clerk and I did not hear him mention it to anyone. I did the mentioning myself, MR ROBERTS: I asked originally a question. I only asked because I raised the quorum call: the Law Clerk left the House and went outside. Now he may have had a hundred reasons to do it: I am very glad to know from the gentleman from Bnrgeo - LaPoile that the Law Clerk was not out there.

I do submit thou!!h that it is proper to call into question the 2126

June J 2, 1972 Tape 686 conduct of any of the House's servants, Sir, if in fart they do not conduct themselves properly, I have no hesitation in so doing. MP~ _Cl-J~~: If I could say to the honourahlC' Leader of the Opnosition, I tlic! not question that point. I did ouestiun. however, whi:ther the Chair could answer what the Law Clerk was doinp . when he left the House. This the Chair feels the Chair cannot answer. MR. ROJIERTS: At this stage it is hypothetical.

It may not he hypothetical but if it were actual my submission in reply to Your Honour's ruling would _be that Your Honour is tlie officer in the Chair anrl is responsihle for the affairs of the !To use including the House's servants. On motion, Clauses 32 to 35, carried. MR. HICKMAN: Clau~e 36, page 30, paragraph (d). sub-clause (1), I move that 'has'' he delet~d in the last line an<l "have" suhstitutecl therefore. On ~otion, Clause 36 as amended, carried. On motion, Clauses 37 to 42, carrie~. MR.

HT.CKM~~: r.lause 43, pare 31, sub-clause (3), the second line, I move the deletion of the words ''the Supreme Court'' ann substituting therefore the words "a court.·• On motion, Clause 43 as amended, carried. On motion, Clauses 44 and 45, carried . .!'f_13_._ll_ICKMAN: Clause 46, page 35, sub-clause (3) the second line, I move after the word ''period" I move the deletion of the following words, 'not exceedinp thirty days.·• On motion, Clause 46 as amen<led, carried. On motion, Clauses 47 to 51, carried. MR. JlICKMAN: Clause 52, Mr.

Chairman, I move the amendment of that clause by ad<ling a sub-clause to be numbered (7) to read as follows: 'In any inquiry made under sub-section (3) the donor and any donee £127

.June 12, 1972 Tape 686 JM - 3 whose gift or liability for tax is the subject of the inquiry, and any witness called to give evidence in the inquiry, may be represented by counsel and the donor and the donee each may, personally or through counsel cross-examine any witness called to give evidence in the inquiry,'' and the side note will read: "Right to• counsel and to cross-examine. On motion, Clause 52 as amended, carr-ted. On motion, Clauses ~3 and 54, carried. 2128

June 12. 1972, Tape 687, Page 1 -·- apb On motion clauses 56 thorugh 61, car 1 ied. f'R. ROBERTS: :>-tr. Chairman, as that is the final clause, I think I should conp;ratualte the minister on the able way he has piloted the matter thorugh committee. Has there been a ouest io n raised hy anv of the twenty or twenty ··two members? I think th e minister has done an admirable job, Sir. whether they are all sa tisfied, confused or both. MR. CIWSBIE, Mr . Chairman, my only regret is that tMs Act will not apply to what the Leader of the Opposition calls a gift to :t-fr. Doyle of ~5 rdllion.

If it were a gift, I would love to impose the rate that would he imposed of $63,750,000 plus fifty percent. It would he a great help. Tn the meantin,e, i,,rr . Chairman, I would like to thank the Opposition for their co--operation in this matter, and thank :-'r. C:oodman for · ·ming along. Also to thank Mr. Cyril ftvery who is the head of the Fiscal Studies Division of the. Treasury Board for his assistance in this matter. He is sittinp here behind ne and he is the successor to Mr. flavid Mercer who was head of Fiscal Studies. They are both very able publ i c servants.

I would like to thsmk the comrni ttee .• }1;?_ ._ ;1,0_BER.!§.:.. Nr. Chairman, the minister is in rood hands when he has people like Mr. Avery and I did not know l'r. Goodman was a public servant unless there have been some chanpes in the Public Service of Newfoundland in the last few hours. Public servants such as Pr. Avery and advisers from the private sector such as :t,rr. r.oodman - I share the minister's regret that the tax does not apply to the gift given to Mr. Doyle, I wonder does it apply to the pift given to ~r. 8pencer? No, not }fr. Spencer, }'r. Spencer Lake? AN HnN. MEMBER· (Inaudible) l·':(.

RO_BERTS ~-- The minister should not say that. I nearly said Mr. Cheeseman, and withdrew. On motion, that the committee rise and report havinr, passed 2129

June 12, 1972, Tape 689, Page 2 -- ap'b Bills 53 :md 54 with some amendment, 1'-'r. Speaker returned to the Chair. On motion, report received and adopted. On motion, amendments read a first time. On motion.amendments read a second time, Bill ordered read a third tiM.e on tomorrow. Mr. Speaker left the Chair. Cm-'.MITTEE OF SUPPLY~ HEAPINr, VI, EDUCATION AND YOUTH !'Jl. CARTER: }'r. Chairman, I imagine the best' way to proceed is for myself to make an opening statement and I imagine there are other hon. gentlemen in this House who would like to make a statement or two.

Then eventually we will get into the consideration of the estimates item by item. I My, Deputy Ninister or associate Deputy Minister is in the winps and I would appreciate the permission of the House that he may be seated. In the meantime, I would like to read an opening statement that mi~ht clarify a few points. AN tmN. }'P.l·fBER: --- - -- 4• Does the minister have copies of it? '''P. .. CARTER: I can get copies made,both for the hon. ~entlemen of the Opposition as well as for the press. At the moment I have only one copy which I intend to read; ~,r. Chairman, with your leave I shall hep.in: Mr.

Chairman, the Department of Education and Youth is the biggest and undoubtedly the most complex of all departments of government. At the present time there are nine hundred employees on our payroll includinf! the admiQistrators and staff in our eleven vocational schools, the school for the deaf and institutional schools. The administrative staff of the department itself totals 223 and these people are accommodated in five different offices in the City of St. John's, 2130

June 12, 1912, Tape 687, Page 3 ·- Apb and two outside of St. John's. One is at rnrnr1 Falls anJ the other at Corner Brook. The Department of Education and Youth is not only the hi?gest and most complex department, it is the one departrrent whj_ch is 1nost sensitive to the needs and demands of our people, and as a conseouence of this. nossirly the most 2131 -:."

June 12, 1972 Tape no. 688 Page 1 - MRW Mr. Carter, misunderstood. It is not often realized Mr.Chairman that out of our population of 500,000, 164,000 are in elementary and secondary schools, another 12,000 are full-time and part-time students at Memorial University and another 5,000 or 6,000 are registered in our vocational and technical institutions.

If you add to these numbers the 80,000 or so who are their parents, it can be seen that nearly half the population of this province are intimately associated with the educational institutions that come under the direct jurisdiction of the Department of Education and Youth.

When you consider the fact that the services of our department extend further into such community activities as sports and recreation and that the vast majority of our people contribute directly to school taxes and assessments to the cost of education, it is not difficult to understand why everv one takes such a positive and often times critical attitude towards education. Because the general public is so vitally concerned with the Department of Education and its operations and because the department is so misunderstood, I want Mr.

Chairman, to take a few minutes to outline briefly the major purposes and functions of the department and to describe the kind of organization we have developed to achieve these purposes. Theoretically, the functions and responsibilities of the Department of Education and Youth can be summarized under two headings: (1) the regulato'ry functions; and (2) the leadership function. We feel that one of the basic responsibilities of our department is to provide a legislative and regulatory framework within which education can be effectively and efficiently carried on across the province.

This function includes the initiation of regulations and policies and the enforcement of them, after, they have been.formulated and approved. These regulations, i.e., control the distribution of teacher salary grants 2132

June 12, 1972 Mr. Carter Tape no. 688 Page 2 and of various operational grants to school boards, the awarding of scholarships and brusaries to our students. They also regulate professional matters such as the minimum prescribed curricular for our children, minimum school construct-ion standards, the length of the school year and other such matters which are designed tn ensure a minimum level of educational opportunity for all our children. The second ma1or function of the department is the leadership one.

We ".onsider it is our responsibili.tv to give a measure of ruidanc e and direction to school boards, superintendents and other educators working at the district or school level. This direction is r.iven in spedal fields through our curriculum consultants and supervisors. through our rerional superintendents and through our planning officP and indeed throup:h all our senior officials.

In order to enable us to fulfill this leadership function properlv, we have attempted to recruit a der,ree of expertees in professional competence which can be made available to local school authorities as they develop and improve their local school programmes. At the present time we have seven or eight full-time consul tanr·s and special is ts whose primarv responsibi li tv is to work with these local authorities. At this point, Mr. Chairman, I would like to comment briefly on the organization of the department itself and more specifically on the work performed by each division of it.

In addition to the deputy minister and associate· deputy minister, there nre six senior personnel, each responsible for a division. I shall deal with them individually. (1). The Division of Instruction; This division is an extension of the former Division of Curriculum. Under the new arrangement, the Division of Instruction, supported by three assistant directors, each competent in a diff~rent area of specialty 1 is responsible for the overall direction and co-ordination of educational programmes offered in the schools

.Tune 12, 1972 Mr. Carter Tape no. 688 Page 3 of the province. This division with its subject area specialists and consultants, not only develops general curricula for the province but assists local srhool. authorities in the development improvement and implementation of r;ducationr:1 programmes at the classroom level, as T indicated a moment ago. I should add that the general responsihili tv of this division includes the ha!idling of audio-visual materials and the promotion of technological media, as part of the nroress of education.

In this respect, I am sure that we are ;ust bc_,ginnlng to m,1ke significant revisions in our tradi tiona I and orthuciox approach to teaching. Included also in this division is the overall administration of public examinations which this year, as honourahlc members may know, is undergoing radical ch a nge. L n\for to the new system by which the high school teachers them,;elve.s are delegated responsibility for assigning fifty per cent of th<' pupils final mark in Grade XI, the othe .r fifty per cent bein:• determined as a result of public examinations. All in all, :-fr.

Chairman, we feel that this is the most important division of our department,in that its operations has a direct influence on what transpires in every classroom o,f the province, This division, therefore, more than anv other determines the nuality of education provided for nur ch{ l itrPn. (2). The Division of Administration: There are two dimensions to the work of this division. The first deals with the internal administrative operation of the department. This includes such things as the appointment and payment of cleric.al staff and the organization of departmental offices.

The second pertains to certain services of Rn administrative nature rendered to school boards, teachers and the public. Such services include - the dis tributit'ln of various departmental grants to school boards, the administration of student aid and scholarship programmes, certification of te.~cher.s, the administration of the Te ache~ 2134

June 12, 1972 Mr. Carter Tape nn. 6B6 F:we 4 Pension Act and the distribution of stntistit:n1 :md nths:r infun:\ation on education as well as the administration of vr1ut.h travel prn; rai (3). The Division of Supervision: 'Th.L~ di-.cision is r,sprsncdble for working with school boards in educationa.l p1anninl", and :-senf>ra1 surervision. There are really three sectors rn rhif'; di,vie>i0n; (

l) the sdmo! planning

section which is responsib1c for as"·· ;t.in)' ·;chool hoards: in preparing educational specifications :md pL11b fnr IV'W huildinps and for seeinp: that these. plans receive fiord npprnv:il before mw school construction is commenced,

(2) The school bus transportatlon

section which has been responsible for the npproval of school bus contracts and all other matters re.lnte.1 to school trnnsportation in the province.

(1) This

section incl uJcs the rep.lonal superintendents. At the moment we have onlv two al thotq::h our plans call for six. These two operate fron offices in Grnncl Falls and Corner Brook, 1n smmnary, I think it can be st;:ite<l that this division is the one which works most closely •;.rith school h1;1rd.s: in administrative and organizational mnttcrs. (ii). The Division of Technical and Vocational Edurntion: This division did not change as a result of the departmental reorganization which took place in 1969.

It is still solely responsible for the development of policies re-luting to technical aml vocational education and for the adrninbtration of institutions cstablisi1ed under the Technical and Vocntionn1 Trctininr, Act. An enactment of the College of Trades and Technology Act in aay, 1969, chnnr,ed this somewhat since that lep,islation makes provision for the ,1dministrntion of the coller,e by n Board of Governors. This board has now been in operation for over a year.

For the information of honourable r::er:1bers,we now have eleven vocational schools in the province, nnrl there are. six. under construction, three of whidi wil 1 probably open this fall, 2135

June 12, 1972 \Jr. Carter. Tape n~. 688 Page 5

(5) The. Division of Special Education: This is 2 relatively new di.visi.m which is responsible for the development and mntntenance of special education services as they relate to retarded childrcn,slow lc1rners, the partially deaf and other handicapped children. It is also concerned with programmes for gifted children.

In the first three vears of oper,1tlon, this division has concentrated on the promotion nf npportunlty classes across the province and the development nf pro;:;ramrrics suited to the needs of children who cannot benefit properly fnirn regular c,lassroom instruction, In addition the Division of Spcci nl Educ,,tion hns ndmi nis tered the various institutional schools, some: of which were formerly operated bv other departments of zovernr::cnt. 1 f cur present plans rnn: tc d n.J i ze within the next f c.w ,,;ea rs I this n,•w div:isl.on will expand cun:;iderablv, both from the standpoint of staff to be appointed and the 11;ittire of services to be offered ns there is ">till urgent need for new servLces for certain children with unusual tearninr, disabilities.

(6) The Division of Phvsical Education and Youth: This divi~ion which hns ft'.; headrrn;irters ,1t the Recreational Centre, Torbay,

June 12, 1972 1'ape 689 NB - 1 is responsible for develOping a Physical Education prograrr:me for schools, for promoting sports and athletics in schools anti in the community in general and for promoting all kinds of organizations and nctivities which are likely to improve the overall educational opportunities of our youth. I might say that in the last year or two this div:";:;ion has been actively engaged in encouraging the expansion of recreational facilities across this province. Contrary to what people rnny think, this division is not concerned only with physical education and sports.

Here I would like to emphasize that it is also concerned with all youth activities. At the present time, through our Supervisor of Youth anrl our 4ll. Officials,who are also an integral part of this division who, nre attemptinP, to provide a wide' varity of youth organizations and clubs which are not athletic in nature but which will enhance the social education of our children and con­ tr1hute to their leadership development. Mr. Speaker, everyone is now aware that the Department of Education was reorganized two or three years ago. This reorganizationt in our opinion 1 has proven very successful.

However, neither my officials no: I are com- pletely satisfied with the job we are doing and perhaps we should not be. We feel that further reorganisation may he necessary in our departmental set up and newer approache~ in the way we perform our daily functions m.iy be imperative,if we are to respond successfully to the legitimate demands being made on us hy people of this Province, I would like to say that my officials and I will he vigorously and continuously attempting to bring about these changes and improvements. During the next two or three days, Mr.

Chairman, we will be considering the Estimates for my departments. AN HON. MEMBER: Two or three weeks. MR. CARTER: The amount of these Estimates is over $l28,000,000 1a ten percc nt and the highest amount this House has ever 2137

June 12, 1972 Tape 689 NB - 2 been asked to vote for Education. At first this sounds like an extremely high amount. However, it must be realized that 40 per cent of this amount is being spent on teachers' salaries alone. Moreover, the fact should also be made that this amount is not spent exclusively on elementary and secondary education. Over $20,000,000 will be on the University, over S3,000,000 on the College of Trades and Technology and nearly $10,000,000 on Vocational Education. I make these points only because there is n misconception that the educntion vote goes entirely for ordinary day school education.

Hr. C::hainnan, I said at the outset that the Department of Edu­ cation and Youth is probably the most complex and possibly the most mis·­ un<lerstood of all departments of government. I trust that in the pnst few minutes I hn.ve provided some information and a little deta:U which will clear up some of that misunderstanding,.if it exists, and which will set the stage for a reasonable and mature consideration of the Estimates of my department which so intimately concerns all the people of this Province. Thank yout HR. F.B. ROWE: !-tr.

Chairman, I would like to compliment the minister for giving us an outline of the responsibilities of his department, although I fail to see what this has to do with introducing the Budget of his de­ partment. It is something I am sure we could have gotten from the annual report of the Department of Education. Really, I am sincere about this, I foil to see any indication of direction on the minister's part for philosophy as far ns education in Newfoundland is concerned.

I really cannot see any aim there, 1'he only thing that I can see in the remarks that he has made is that education in the Province and the administration of education in the Province is extremely complex and I hope this is in no way an indicntion of an apology on his part for what in fact he has been able to get out of the provincial budget as far as education is concerned. I will relate back to that a little later. :.!138

June 12, 1972 Tape. 689 rm - 3 Sir, in my speech in reply to the SpL'cch from the Throne, I referred to the insidious plot that the present AJministrnlion was em­ barking upon as far as imposing cut-backs on expenditures in this Province was concerned, for this year, possibly fer next year nnd proh~" ably even in the third year. I suggested thnt this waic; n cruel gnne to play.

It was a dangerous game to play with rhe pe0p1.e of tiewfonndl:md, to cut back on expenditures for a couple of yenrs. nlrnne the state of the economy on the previous Administration ;2nd then bn,_; l cally make the people suffer for two or three years and then C'or.:e in with nll guns firing in the third or fourth year for the pt1 rposes of getting re-elected. t suggested that this was a cold r:ame to he playing. Thc:re was no feeling in it whatsoever as far as the Administration was concerned..

Sir, the hon. the Lea<ler of the Opposition referred to the Budp,et Speech as n speech of a tiger and the Estimates as that of a pussy cat. In the case of the Budget 1 as it relates to the f)epartment of Education, I feel that in this case the Estimates represents the estimate of a tiger. Never did I think, Sir, that the field of Education would he one of the areas that this Administration would pick to cut expenditures back on. That is relatively speaking. It is not an actual cut-back.

But relatively speaking it is certainly a cut-back in certain areas of education whereby the people who need the help most will end up suffering. And again, I will relate to that later on. Sir, as we all know, education is one of the most important aspects of our society. It is vital in the broadest sense. Host people would realise that an investment in education by either an individual or by an institution or by government itself is the single most important investment that can be made.,As far as the progress of the people is concerned. it is crutial, Sir.

This has been the feeling expressed by every economic or sociolop,ical or scientific or educational conference that 1 hnve attended or that I have rend about. For example, the Thin1ers Conference back in 1965 suggested 1 as did other conferences 1 thnt an investment in education is t139

June 12, 1972 Tape 689 extremely important as far as the economic development of a country or province is concerned. Sir, if we look at the total vote for education in this Province, we see that this year it is in the order of $128,000,000. That is the totnl vote. Last year the vote was in the order of almost 116,000,000. This represents an incrense,as the minister sugge:sted,of approximately 10 per cent or $12,000,000.

Sir, 1 find this pecular that we have an in­ crease fn the total vote for education of approximately $12 1 000,000 while at the sarne time we have the grants respecting student .. aid, thnt is student aid in the schools and in the university appear to be down. We ffnd that the grants to education studentsJ these are the special education bursaries or grants amounting to $400.00 per student ,these have been elfminated all together. We find thnt the grant to physical education and youth in that particular division of the department that is down as well.

We find, if we look nt it very carefully 1 that the operating grant to Memorial University is horribly inadequate as far ns the development of that university is con­ cerned, in the accommodation of the students. We find that the capital grant to, the University is totally inadequate. It is my feeling that directly or indirectly students will of necessity have to be turned away or they will decide not to come to University this year for one reason or another. We find that the grants for the transportation of school children in this Province~ after some controversy, has been brought up to the level of last year.

But it is my feeling that again this is horribly inadequate. The Mothers' Allowances have been eliminated all together and there is some question about this now. I will relate to these specific headings a little later. In my estimation, these Mothers' Allowances 2140

June 12 1972 Tnpe 690 (afternonn} PK - l lvffi. ROHf-,£·_!2_)· provisions were el"i.rntn2ted vithnnt :mv h,ur,:ht heen given vhntsoever to the consequences :1s far n~ nn:' nf t1 in this nrovince are concerned. fn.7j_ ! ies Now, Sir, T mention this because althom:h we k1ve :tn increa~r of npproxfr1atlcv ~11 million, we have p. situnti.on wh0r<' 1'Cven .1re2s in educutinn the erant if> either <lown or the vote i,:; down or the vote is inndequatr:.

Sir, it seems to me that the vcu, for thr esri0ntes for the Department of r::<lucation are totally inndr.:r;uate as fnr as meetinr tl educnti n. drn: 1f'nr,:es of tonorrow arr;. concerned in this fiPld of nmr r; r, whether t·ld s is by accident or hv <les lf'n. t s11hn1 t thri.t the cducBtion huOret Pill hurt the ordi.nnry \1evfoundlander. the common ne,.,foundLmdr>r rmd cP.rt.1.inly the poor Newfoundl1.m<lcr. Thr neoplc vho need the help most with respect to certain nspccts of education :ire thP ones uho are p.oinr: to he hurt thr rnost, vtth rr>spect to this r,artfc.nlar hudget.

Sir tlw hudp:et does not reflect at all £mv indication of ;mv fonnulnt·ion -0f 0.ducationctl policy or direction. This statement that the honounhle rnfni;:;ter iust nade, Sir, d:id not <lo nnythinr; to clarify the situntion. There vas nothin0 in the statement thnt :indicnted tn rrie that thPre was any direction or philosophy as fnr as the Piinister headinr tMs rfopnrtment is concerned. It reflecti:; the lack of •mli.cy. ,md still vorse,it reflects no feelinr or no conpassion or sympathy for the nreas of thC' province or the people who need the assistance th!' rost.

Now, Si.r, everyhody l--noFs that educational. costs are incr,:,nsfnr at an extremely rapid rate. Everybody knows that we have a lot of catchinj:! up to do in the field nf education in this province. This is not Pnt:frely because of the pa:1t administration. He have m:ule tremendous strides over the past twenty-thre~ years. Rut we were 2141

June. 12, 1972 Tape 690 (nfternoon) PK - 2 PR. ROWE.(F.B.): years behind as far as education was concerned in this province. There n.re certain provinces of Canada where they are taking n very serious look at expenditures in education. I feel there :i.s nothi.ng wrong with that whatsoever and T think we should tnke n ser:lous lnok nt expenditures in education in this province.

But the.re is no indication on the part of this administration that they are conducting any work whatsoever to try to ascertain the efficiency of spending nf nnney in the ficlrl of education. ~n Sir, there :is n real need for increased· expenditures 1-n e<lucntion in the ar,rns of this province and with respect to the n:rour,s of people who need it the most.

Basically Sir, what we are f:indin;t here is that, if you look at the University and if you loo!< nt school }ms transportation of school children, ff you look nt recreation. if you look at physical edut'.nt:Lon nnd youth, these types of thf.ngs, :i.t ts not the people in these citle:~ or the lnrge cofi11~tmities or the lnrr:e tovms t.:ho are f',Oing to be the ones that will suffer. lt ls the rnrnl personlwho is tryinr; to ret a university education or vho is trying to get to school, these ,1re the people who are hit the httrdesto .qir, the measure of the s:i.nce.rity or the power or the success or prohahly even the potentfaJ of n Minister of Fducation is twofold. first, Sir, it is the extent or degree tk1t a min:i.ster can convince his collear;ues in c:ab:i.net of a need for an increase and an adequate slice of the budget for his particular depnrtn:ent.

Sir. taJhat I am sup:p:esting here is that in this capacity the minister has fa.i; ;,;d utterly and r:1isernbly. Sir., the poor mothers, now not all of the mothers, but the pnor mothers of this province :ire not impressed with the estJmates for the Departnent of Education. The people involved in physical education and youth, the people 1 many

June 12 1G72 Tape. (90 (afternoon) 'vfR.-Rmff,_f'.R. of whom are volunteer vorkers 1 suffered :i servere hlow with the cuthacks in that particular division. :Cir. the students at the t:niversity rot the shock of tiieir life vhen they heard the revelations of the hmlr:et sreech. The PK~ 3 ;.; 14 3

June 12. 1972. Tape 691. Bap,:e 1. neople who are concerned with tbe running of the residences at the Fniversitv, the students who are trying to get into residences i.n the Universitv were certa1nlv ont impressed hv the budget speech, the vote in the budget denartment, for the education department.

The drc.rtmn nf the engineering: school nt Memorial are quickly turnlng into nothing hut a horrihle nightmare Sir. mav :in fact he tmrned awav from the medical ,<;chool this ye.1r. \'k~ have heard the >'resirlent of the Universitv express his concern over this fact that e:tudents mny have to he turned nwav from t1H, medical f'lchoo1 ttl:is venr. As I mentionerl he fore, the operating grant to the universitv :Ls horrihly inadequate.

Sir, there has heen no indicntion in the estimate nt all :-u;: to the future of regional communitv colleges , at hctng voted for these c.ollcr,es is concerned. least as far as money As I l7lent'ioncd before the vote for the transnortation of school children in this province I fee] is inadequate for this year. tfow, Sir, I could p:o on with manv more examples where the minister has failed comnletelv to p,et an ndet1u:1te slice of the hudp:et pie for his pnrticulnr dennrtment.

So, Siri we see really that :in the first measure of the comnetence of the minister of Educatinni it is my feel:inp, th.1t the mi.n:ister h:1s flunked out disr;racefully. The second menrrnre, Sir, of comnetc.nce of the minister in hiB cnpn.dtv to rrrti.culn.te educational poli.cy'. Sir, we have not heard a r,limmer nor a hint of r,ol:i.cy r:or direction from the minister since this honourable House opened, What we heard,Sir, were in fact two speeches, one the Address in Re:ply 1 he made a brief speech concerntng the budget.

Sir. each one of these sneechcs consisted of n reoetition of sly, vicious, sarcastic, low, contemntible remnrks. It is all in Hansard to see. If this sounds Uke a personal attack, f:ir, I feel that 1 hnve

June 12, 1972. Tane 691. Pap,e 2. to make it. I do not think it is a nersonnl nttack. Th,: record there spenJ,s for itself.

On the two occasions thot the mfnintcr L1d to sneal: in this House of Assembly in order to expound on :x1mr,1 educational nhilosonhv, he has taken these two onnortunll to dirett thflse ;1v, vicious, sarcastic remarks at the honourab1.:> Leader of the Onnndt:frm .1.nd the honournhlP Lender in the Ho1rne of thr> nnnnsitinn, Sir, the onlv thing that these two SPt'et:hes lndicntc.d w:Vi a fanaticn.1 hatred of the former Liberal administration, anybody who i~ the least hit Connect,•.cl with thnt ndr:dnistrntfon.

I h<1n0, Sir. before this honourable Hmrne closes that this hntred w.-U l subside that he will pet on with the husineMs of his r!enartr:ient. S-fr, i.n these two srieeches tlrnt the minister mnde, the major on.rt of the sneeches were really made un of <1 pcrson:i:1 attack on the honourable Leader of the Opnosi «<ion, the House Leader of the Onposition, i.n the secon<l sneech he reached the honourable men:her for Bell Island, I bt-1 ieveJ in his oersonal attack.

Sir, the only reference I can remember, we can check Hansard for this, as far as educat5on was concerned, is that education -Is extrec'.ely comn!ex, that nrirnarv education is imnortant, elementary educat5on is iMnortant 1 vocational education 2145

June 12. 1972 Tape· 692 S:"1 - 1 t:o :inportant, university educntion is important. That is the onlv stater,,ent of direction or policy thnt we have from the J'finister of Erlucation. J.11_('.:.1'?½:!: Hhat <1hot1t his brillant transportation policy'? ROtJE(F~B.): Hell. we uill come to that later. He did not comment on motherhood at all. He wiH cor,ie to that later. Sir, I think the rninister,if he keeps these tectics up 1 renlly owes the people of ~fowfoundland an ar,olo~!y.

We can see, Sir, just how irnportnnt education is to the honourable minister when in the first inst.:mce he has foiled completely to articulate pol.Ley with respect to his departI:1ent. Secondly there have heen n mm1her of questions dircctE!fl to the honournblc Minister of Educntion and the most, well we did p:et n statement from one cinestion, but in most cases what we. simply got was ;m answer thnt our Qllcstioninr; is extreoely tedious and complex. I have yet to hear the. nnswer to the nucstion thn.t task him relating to what went on at a 1.mivcrsity neetinp- n.pproximately one week before an election.

Thirdly, S:ir, he hns failed niser,1.bly to p;et an adequate share of the budget to meet the educational needs of this province. The sad thin?: about :it, Slr, is that it is the littlP man and it is the little community of this province l:i.kcly w:i.11 suffer as a resu1t of this hudn:et as it pertains to education.

Sir, T stronr,ly recommend _that the Minister of f'ducation he shed or molt his cloak of hatre<l of the Liberals and he address himself to the administration of his department and the articulation of some educational policy which would give us some indication of the thinkinr, of this present ndministration as it relates to education. Now, Sir. 1 nn sorry th:it T h:i.d to make 'these. what could be considered personal rer:w.rks but when you sit here day after dny and there is :m nhso1 nte void with respect to whnt is p:oinp on :t.n ~146

June 12, 1972 Tape 602 education in thjs province nnd uhen you look n.t the hudp_ct1 1 feel that T had to make them particu]nrly when I hatl to 1istcn ton fev sneeches that the honourable minister made respPcting ccrtnin n:enhers on this side of the House. 'fow, Sir, getting into the details here. The first thinr tlrnt c.01nes to mind is thin Educational Advisory Cor.im:i ttec. T n:n not quite sure, '{r. Chai.rrn:m, what vou cnll it, the Externn] Arlvit-mry Cor.mitteci I hf'1ieve. Hh.1t is the. best thinr to do here. nr. r:halrrarm?

The hnnourahle minister prohably could jot dow'TI the inquiries that I have and come up with the :mswer a little later or does he want to answer them dlrectly? HR. CARTER: "~ --- "~ --~- MR. ROl-TE(F.n.): Fine. Hell, first what T would like to know is what has hnppencrl, :if nnythinp:, to the ori?l.nnl ndvisnry cnrimittee to the Ninister of Education?

Now the reason l ask this is hccanse I hnve learned fron the papers thn:t this External Aclvisorv f'.omr;\'ltt0e !ms hecn set up, a statutory committee I underst,m<l, and this conmittee consists of twentv-six rnemhers from n broa(l spectrum of our Newfoundland people.

There is one thinr,: that I am very concerned about here and that is this 1 that in the field 0f education there is :i tendency,whether you are at the university or in the NTA or in the school, there is a certain tendency to have a trer:1endous numher of cnmmittees set up nncl what we usually see is n certain anount of redttndancy as far as the operation of these cornnittees are concerned. He have, as you know, Sir, the NTA and they have their various numbers of committees. They have their curriculum councils and their branches throughout the province. We have the Ferleration of School Boards.

He have individual school hoartfs. He have the Denominational Education Cor.imi ttecs. He have vocationnl schools and the Collepe of Trades nnd Technology and the Fisheries College and presumably they have various committees set up under then. The university certainly 2147

.June 12, 1972 Tape 692 has a nrn:iber of committees as tt relates to education. We have the Arlult Education Organization. We have the Department of Education itself which has a great number of committees oarticularly under curriculum o.nd we have the joint conrrn.ittee and, Sir, there are all kinds of conmittees all over the place with respect to education. Now what I am basicnlly nsking here is will the new committee that has been set up, this External Advisory Comw.ittee 1 will this <luplicnte some. of the work thnt is being carried out by these L:148

June 12. 1972t Tape 693, Pnge l -~ npb other conmittees thnt I have :rentionec!. Py c,,,n feelinr, ~Jir, is that n twenty· s:t:x man committee is certainly a horribly cumh::rsmN~ cnn!l1ittee and in ny experience I thinl'. you tstill find t1rnt the r.£:cr inps PiU be trenen<lously t:iwc-consumin? nnd what cones 0ut of those rcetinrs vill he very little. This is not n criticism cf this nrcscnt committe, but in PV experience with corr:m:t ttecs of this size, lnnr, tedious tN.•ctinp;s with very little coming out of then.

I mr e:str0r10Jy concc.rner1 duplication vith other connittees thnt mav re,mlt uitlt this new committee beinr. set un. J would .c1pprec:iatc it if the minister c -u1.d relate to tlw rnirpnses nnc1 th0 ains of this new statutory corrrrittc0. I understand tlrnt the cornMittee will cn.nvas the ordnions and seek the nssist:incc> of n wi(le segment of flus:incss .;nd nrofession:d pcop1 c, as well an cdurntors in nll rnntters of educ<1tion. The n:i.n of the con:mi ttce is to co ordJn<1te 1111 educational services with emphasis on the nctive participation of puhlic r,roups an<l associotions.

S:tr, J fine! this ;ust n little hit fuzzy, the stated nins of the cor.m:Ittee and J Fould nµ~reciate some clnrific:ntion on :it. Si.r. with respect to nssistance to stud,onts. Fe hnve n sitn:ition at ;iemori...,l now and let re say nt the outset this: sone rieop.1c nny sup-pest that bccnusc niy latest job v:as connected Hith the­ t1r.:!versi ty thnt T mcry he here to protect the r:i;:hts anfl try to ret something frir t11c, univcrs:! ty, sinpJy because of T'."lV orip:inn:1 conne-ction n:i th it. Put.

Sir, I arn rc,nlly menttoninF it rec::mse university cclucntfon affects every G:inpJe community, every sinp-Je family in this provi.ncc.. Fhnt T mn concerned nest about here, ::is that studC'nts now lwvo to borrow two hundred dollars more. under the Cannda Student Lonn Plan in order to quaJ;ifY for provinci,11 assistance. It :is my understn:ndinp: and I have r-ecn told this by people other t'vrn rnc,mhl~rs of the Lihernl Associ2tion at the university. It '.l.s my understanding that one week,approxir:ately within one week hefore the last provincial election there were a ·panel of six mcrrrhcrs fron the L:149

June 12, 1°72, Tape 693, Page 2 Rph oti:er side of the Hom,e vho were asked whether or not students would lwvc to borrow additional funds from the Canada Student Loan Plan in order to ounlify for provincial assistance.. I understand, Sir, thn.t one reply. I thin}' from the hon. the }1inister of Finance - I stand to he corrected here, but it wns from one rner.,ber of that panc1 - was thnt this was a dirty Lihcral runour being spread by the t:niveniity Liberal Associatiuo. Shame!

Havin~ been oucstioned again, I further understand that the hon. the Pinister of Education and the hon. tifnistcr of Finance nssured the students in rmhlic that they would not have to horrm_r this tt<o hundretl dollars extra :in order to oualify for nrovincin.1 assistnnce. AN, Resipn, resi;m. ~rr~- ~OYJ::: ,, This meaning was transferred to the r;t'udents, Sir. On tori of that. we hnve a si.tt1ati0n where the specinl assistance bursari.es to education students have hecn eliminated altogether. That is four ht1ndrcd dollars eliminated.

The reason )!iven for this, at least this was n,y understnnding from what the hon. }finister of Finance had to s:.:iv, :is thnt there nre no lonr,cr incentives reouired to get people into the te-achi.np: profession and that we really have enough teachers in the prnvint:e .it the- r,rcsrsnt time,.

June 12, 1972, Fnp;e l. there is not a shortage of teachers. 1 w-:i 11 not Ht rm far .:rn to surgest that the honourable minister of Finance supgested that there uns an over-sunply of teachers. This is what some ':--Coil',.., could hnve Tead into it.

Sir, there is not an over-supply of 'enc here; .in tid s nrovince particularly in certain areas, l co11ld mention ocience, education, reading, mathematics, foreign lanr.11ap;c, these nreas of educntion, music, in n sneciali;c;t a.rens you f1nd th;c;t there ts in fact a shortage of teachers. tJow, if you are going to take nwn.y general incerttvcr;i because the foelinr; is that we have enough teachers in thn schools of our nrovince at this time, the le'1st that this administration could havn done was take thjs $t,On special rrnsistance to edncntion stuc'lents and trv to use it ns a1lt incentive to get neorlc into certain snecialized areas where vou have a shortage of teachers at the nresent time.

On ton of that,Str, we have a situation where the r;ra<luate fellowships at the university have heen reduced from 130 to 9( These are the $2,500 fellowshins for i;:raduatc: students. This anplies to students of course other than those in cducatinn. \Jell, Sir. T have been talki.ng with certain peon le at the un1versitv.

They feel 1 narticularlv in the field of eduration vherc we need more teachers graduating at the Naste:r's level than ever hcfore because we have those great new schno ls r,ointo, un now, ue have a.11 .e.orts of new curriculum development, we h.1.ve new administra t:i ve nrohl ems in developine in the fields of education, there is a grent need for graduates :f.n education at the Master's level.

A reduction of those ?-radnnte fellowshins from 130 to 90 can only mean.Sir, that some of these students who. are planning to come to the university to do graduate. studies, those teachers who have be.en teaching for a numt'er of years who have families, children. who have rwrtgar,es to nav, iust simnlv will not come to universitv. S:f.r, it all hoils down to this! We htl:vc. ,-n,rmnsinf if vou can t151

June 12, 1972. Tape 694. Page 2. state a hypothetical case, supnosing you are an education student. from a verv remote area of our province_..... there nre enough remote nreas of our nrov:i.nce - that student al] of a sudden finds that he has to find $200 extra, he has to borrow $200 ext1ca and he ls out $400 in this sprcci.nl assistance, ~hich means he is out n total of $600. Now~ if that does not mean a Jot to a student or a chtld of a fanilv of low income in a very remote community of this nrovince. who has to travel from somewhere like St.

Barhe North on no incone- there n.rn enough nf those- Sir, this only simply means that we have a situation d•velopinr, for the first time :In a gre11t numher of vears where a student's probabi.1 i tv of .1ttend:Ing university in th:l.S province if; startinp; to depend more on his financial canad ty to come tn univer:;ity than on his hasic intellectual cannci.tv to studv nt th::tt universitv.

Some thought hns to he given to the province I s financial - Some thought has to he p;iven but when you get $2.6 mill-inn going to Spencer Lake, being robbed from the 1wther,_~ and the - Sir. it is a funnv thing, vou know the honourable Mintstcr of Fi.nancet wlwnever you trv to make a point that involves

June 12. 1972 Tape 695 (afternoon) HR. HOH_E,(F.B.)· the poor pe,,ple of this province, the ordinary guy of this province, it all of a 1H1ddPn hecomes nonr;cnse, :ikm.1utc nonsense to him. t-lR ,_ EFARY 1 Ci.rcular Road wi.11 p;e.t educated. 'lH. mwr:. F.R. --- --·-·- - ---- _,, everythinp; hecomes nonseni;c nR. l!FAl-lY: -·- - "~-- Ci~cular Road and ifaterf,,rd Hridp;c road wi] 1 f'-'.'t '~. R01.JF. F .B. t do not know uhy the honourable f·tinister of Finance :fcs so touchy. Mr. Chairman. ·-~-- FOFf=:._,_ r. n.

T nm relat1nr: to the incap:..city of the Hfnistcr of Fducatlon to get a rerrnonahle share of the bucket pie for his department. So what ii:; the honourable Hinister of Finance beinp; so tonchv ahout? '-1R. cn.nsrn F: Inaudible. ~fR. !ffARY· Take a pill and ro out and ,unto sleep. ~-fr. Chairmnn. with respect to the opcratfon grant to thP un:i.versity, t,'e see that the President of the llntversitv state<l thnt the open1ting hudp.et for the ncdical school is less than the minimum nsquired to provide for the planned numher of students for this year. '.·IR. CPOSTIIE :__ Lrnudihle. nn ..

NEAPY: He will come to the -__ ,__ --- "-f){,_ .. Prn'1:.i_-F .B. We arc talking ahout this year, ~.m •. ROHE, F. B. Hhy do you 1111 not _get hack in your cape and - '·:!:l_~_J:!,f.-!1RY__: Veep your c.ool, we qi]l p;et around to the minister. ''J:l. POPE,. F.n. The Niniste.r of Fimmce. Mr. Chairmrm, nt least has ndmitted that the President did make that statem0nt. whether it was for this year nr any other year. Ile hns made it this yen.r

June 12, 1972 Tape 6q5 (afternoon) PK - 2 l!R. ROHE, F.H~ and I believe we nre dealin~ with the estimates for thl:3 year, not last year. ',!ft._ Rot-JE~.B. That :is rir,ht. It is pretty hard to forget it with the honour.ahle ' 1inister of Finance ove::r there. let us ro had: five hundred ye3rs. HR. _C:ARTF:R: Hr. Chairman. on n point of order. I think it is the intention of this HousP: hv npreement to sit tnn:tght, so r thmwht it rrdp_ht he :m iden hefnre six o'clock arrives. if ve coulri settle thnt matter. T nm 1ooking fon.iard to a prolonp;ed. - • 1n. P0Pf_. F.B. On tl noi.nt of order. Nr. Chatman, ~21.:...-..

Jr~]:E_Y_· t-'hat is the roint of order? 'IF. CARTFR · Poll r tlllnk thnt it ought to he settled prlor to si:e o'clock. On n point of order, f,fr. Chairman. nn a point of order. Irr. Chai m:m? 'H! C/IPTER · J vi 11 take instructions from the C:hn:lnr:rtn. t'R. ROWE. F. R. I do not underst:md the minister',:; no int of order -----~--- ---- her~. '-~F~• __ CARTF:R:_ T think it would he a good {dea, if ve were to settle. t<ehet:her or not ue are noinr. tn continue th:i.s debate now rather thm after six o'clock? ~m. ROUERT.S · -- '----- --- \lr.

Cha:i.rm;;n, rm ,1 point of order, The honourahle Ft~ntle.man mi.p-ht vish tn loo!: nt St.andinp Orders, it says explicitly; unless there :l..s a notion nnrle he.fore six of the clock. we do not rd t tontr:ht. t1c do i.n fact s:i t tonip:ht. For this side, we do not can:: tf we sit or not. The honourable gentlern:m i:c; going to he prer;entinr his estir,,."ltcs, trc nre. t-1illinr; to do it tonii:;ht, Your Fonour-. Tf Ymir Fonour ,.Jisr.es. Rut there is no point nf order and the '.mnournh le r:cntlcts,:in -

June 12, 1972 Tape 695 (afternoon) PK - 3 MR. CARJF:R: I am delighted to have some assurance. I am deli: ":ted to have such assurance. MR. ROWE, F.B. Mr. Chairman, I was relating to the operatinp ,t to the university as far as it effects the medical schooL Sir. the Minister of Finance s:iggested that any rumors C?" h,tn'.'.:s suggesting that students will have to he turned away from the university in the coming year is nothing but a tissue of deception. MR. CARTER: A Liberal plot, MR. ROWE, F .B.

Now, Sir. this is one instance where students are going to have to be physically and directly turned awny from the university in the coming year. It is my feeling that indirectly there are other reasons for suggesting that students will decide not to come to university or will in fact be turned away from the university. Sir, the fact that we have to turn medical s,tudents away from this university in this coming year obviously suggests or means that there will be a corresponding decrease in graduating doctors in ~our or five years time. 2155

June 12. 1972 Tape 696 JM - l ~ir, everybody in this province realizes and knows the great need fo~ doctors in nany of the communities of our nrovince and I think this is a sad thing when we have a medical school just starting at the university. The new physical plant is actually starting up now but we do have a nedical school in the temporary huildings and it is a very saC thing indeed when we have to sit here and listen to the fact th:it students nre po:inr, to have to be turned awav, medical students n.r0 ~oinr to hnve to be turned away fron the universlty this year.

Sir, as far a=1 the capital p,rant to Memorial University is concerned,the estimates sugr,est that only $1.35 million is available in capitrl gr:mts to the university. Now, Sir, - t-m. CROSBIE: Hh<>t ahout the ned:ical school? ---~---··-· MR.~ Rm,:F:(F.B.) ! I aF.t talkinp.: nhout the p.:rants other thnn those to the rnerlic:i.1 school. A~J mm .. ~'.EHTlER: (Inmidibl e) • ".1,fR. ROWE(F.B.): Well, I mean anybody could see that. ~TR. CROS!}_!J~ .. : The metlical school is not at the university. That is not p-nrt of it. Oh, it is very much u part of it.

I just rel;:ited to the medical school :mrl what is goinr; to happen there, a reduction in students this year. S1r. there are about 7,300 stu<lents at the uni.vcrsitv, full-time students ant1 nbout 1.300 pnrt-tir:ie students for a total of nbout lOtOOO students and we can normally expect 500, 600 or 700 additional students each year. Sir, the library facilities there are really only adequate for 2,500 students. The physical education facilities :1re renlly only adequate for approximately 1,800 students.

C:i.r. the minimum amount required by the university this year. in order to neet its needs as ft1.r as capital works are Concerned, the minimum amount was $8. nill ion. nut, Sir, we only have $1. 35 million and out of thnt hns to come the $f1S0 1