Manitoba Hansard — 28 March 1977 (Sitting 28B, 30th Legislature, 4th Session)

30-4-28b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

I I TIME:B:OO p.m. THE LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY of MANITOBA Monday, March 28, 1977 CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY ESTIMATES - CORRECTIONS CHAIRMAN, Mr. D. James Walding (St. Vital}: We have a quorum, gentlemen and the committee will come to order. I wou ld refer the attention of honourable members to Page 33 in their Estimates Books, Resolution 64(

c) Probation and Parole Services,

(1) Salaries. The Honourable Member for Crescentwood. • MR. STEEN: Before we broke at 4:30, Mr. Chairman, the Honou rable Minister mentioned that under Salaries he had 16 4 staff man years. Could the Minister inform us as to how many of those people are actually involved in parole work? I don't mean clerical or administrative people, but actual parole people, in dealing with persons on parole. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. BOYCE: There's 10 4 probation officers, with 62 in Winnipeg and 42 rural. And then there's, as I said earlier, there's 50 voluntary probation officers and 10 0 vo lunteers. MR.

STEEN: In reading throug h the report very quic kly before we broke, I did notice somewhere where - I see it in here on Page 14 - about a th ird of the way down, where the average is a 40 unit workload per officer. Is that tor each parole officer? Is that what's meant by that statement, Mr. Minister? MR. BOYCE: Well, that is something that they strive toward, but right at the moment I'm informed that it is about 65. MR. STEEN: Can the Minister inform us, Mr. Chairman, as to the average per parole officer, is it gradu ally going up in the last few years, or has it been roughly 65 for some time? MR.

BOYCE: Well, I guess you could say it's been going up, it's remaining relatively constant with 65, but as I said earlier we added a volunteer component. MR. STEEN: Well, Mr.

Chairman, earlier today the Minister answered the Member for Swan River by saying that, "No, they had not had any staff increases, that the $330,000 increase in the budget in the Salaries category was through increases in wages wh ich was done through collective bargaining." Has there been an increase in parole officers within the department - whether the department was under its present structure or back in Health or back in Welfare some years ago has there been an increase in parole officers sometime in the last th ree or four years? Have we been able to reduce the caseload per worker?

Are we making any strides? MR. BOYCE: Well, last year, the year before, we added six. How many we added before I would have to look up. If you want those figures for 19 74-75 we'd have to look up. We added six in 19 75-76 MR. STEEN: The Minister has, Mr. Chairman, made some comment earlier about the volunteers and that they are just paid a small honorarium. Did I hear him correctly saying there were approximately 10 0 volunteers working in this? MR. BOYCE: Yes, 50 voluntary ... and a hundr ed volunteers. A voluntary probation officer is someone who becomes, in fact, a probation officer under The Corrections Act.

MR. STEEN: Could the Minister tell us what type of person becomes a volunteer probation officer and where his department and other agencies find such persons and what type of backgrounds and training they have tor that type of work? MR. BOYCE: Well, the backg round is varied in that it is someone who the Director is satisfied can hand le that job in a community. The range, I can give the member that information of who they actually are and what their involvement is. They may handle from one case to several cases in a commun ity. Most of them are deployed outside the City of Winnipeg. MR. STEEN: Mr.

Chair man, I'm not interested in the names of volunteers because I don't think that information should be public, personally. That's a personal statement, but I just wondered where they are basically working and the Minister has said basically in the rural areas where I am sure it's difficult to get professional people to go and I'm pleased to see that they have been able to strike up a volunteer force. MR. BOYCE: Well they may well be in other professions. They could l;>e truck drivers, teachers, preachers, blacksmiths, anyone in the commun ity that we can use. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Swan River.

MR. BILTON: On that same subject, Mr. Chairman, the Min ister said there were 62 parole officers in the City of Winnipeg and 42 in rural Manitoba. Could he give us a brief outline as to the qualif ications of these 62 people in Winnipeg? MR. BOYCE: It'll take a moment to look that up for the meer, however, we are glad to give him that information. MR. BILTON: Mr. Chairman, are they professionally social workers and with regard to the 42 in 1303

Monday,March 28, 1977 rural Manitoba, where do they eminate from? Are they rural people or are they selected by the department by examination, by th eir educa tional qualifications tor th is type of work? MR. BOYCE: They are selected by the Civil Service Comm ission and the positions are bulletined and there is a broad cross-section of qualifications. There are people with all sorts of deg rees, Bachelor of Arts, Masters in Criminology, Bachelor of Social Work and there's a combination, usua lly, of education and experience that we try to attract. MR. BILTON: Mr.

Chai rman, the 42 in rural Manitoba, does th is include the Ind ian Metis people and the Ind ian reserves? Do you have probation officers in those areas? MR. BOYCE: Yes, it does, Mr. Chairman. The actual provision of soc.ial services on reserves is presently under review between the federal government and a Committee of Cabinet. MR. BILTON: Mr. Chairman, the Minister is telling us that this matter is under review. He is fully aware of the state of affairs in rural Manitoba, particularly amongst the Ind ian Metis people and the Indian people.

Is he telling us that he has no qualified probation officers of that level to take care of those people? MR. BOYCE: No, I did not say that, Mr. Chairman. But as the member well knows from his experience in the Legislative Assembly provision of social services to native people on the reserves is the prerogative of the federal government. And we're trying to get them to place the proper emphasis on th is federal responsibility. And we're providing them with the same kind of services that we provide other people in the commun ity as best we can under those circumstances.

They are not picking up their ful l share of the cost of providing social services on reserves. MR. BILTON: Mr. Chairman, with due respect to the Minister, what concerns me is: Is he hiring people in this $2,398,000, of an academic level that are not coming down to the level of the people that we're trying to help under th is program? MR. BOYCE: No, in tact, Mr. Chairman, we have other programs which are related to this such as Native Court Commun icators. Then we have people who speak several of the dialects, local dialects, of the native culture.

We also have native voluntary probation officers and volunteers also, in addition. We have the same kind of services and we try and attract the same kind of academic qualifications, but yet I agree with the member in the nuance that he brings in that they have to be able to relate, to commun icate with the people with whom they are dealing. MR. BILTON: Mr. Chai rman, all I can suggest, and I say this with considerable consideration in view of the facts and figures that we have here, that he's got the wrong kind of people doing the job that has to be done' at the cost of 2 % million dollars.

Is a bureaucracy being set up there that can't get down to the local level of the wrong-doers or the people that are in trouble and doing the job that we would expect them to do at th is particular stage? MR. BOYCE: Well as pointed out to this Committee on Friday, Mr. Chairman, the only criteria we can use, to answer the member's questions is how many people that they remove from the criminal justice system in the final analysis because probation is given as an alternative to incarceration. I think that the programs and the people we have deployed are providing an excellent program.

By the way, one of the members asked me it I had any more copies of those figures of Statistics Canada, and I have some more of them up front here, it anybody wanted them and I repeat, those weren't my figu res. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member tor Swan River. MR. BILTON: I wonder, Mr. Chai rman' if I could ask the Minister, is he reasonably satisfied with the personnel that he has under th is head ing of Probation and Parole Services, that they are doing the job that we would expect them to do. MR. BOYCE: More so now, Mr. Chai rman, than a few years ago.

One of the thing s we have accomplished is a downward turn in staff turnover. I have to admit at the same time, that it is difficult to provide probation services in an outlying place like Churchill, where it is difficult to keep somebody permanently stationed in Church ill who has the professional background behind him. Albeit we are able to provide voluntary people in that commun ity, nevertheless it would be desirable it we could have someone who is familiar with the total legal system and also some experience in probation to locate in Chu rchill.

The last one there has been there two years, but now we have to train somebody else to stay there, so in that area, I'm not too happy; I th ink we have some more work to do in trying to slow down the turnover in some of these positions. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member tor Swan River. MR. BILTON: Mr.

Chairman, I don't want to labour this point, but it seems to me that with sixty-two social workers, or at least people under this head ing, in the City of Winnipeg , together with Health and Welfare social workers and the effort that is being made by the City and so on, that we should have a much better picture than we've got here. What is going wrong? Can the Minister tell us what is wrong? MR. BOYCE: Well, the member is holding the figures put out by Stats Canada and we get on to that in the next item when we're talking about people that are incarcerated in the juvenile system.

In this particular item, we're talking about probation. 1304

Monday,March 28, 1977 MR. BILTON: I accept the Minister's explanation, but I believe we're talking about the people who administer to these people that require their help and he doesn't seem to be giving me the answer. He either is holding back or doesn't know. MR. BOYCE: Well, I would suggest neither, Mr. Chairman. If the member will look at the book that I gave him, I explained what these people are doing . If you look from Page 10 on, you' ll seethe duties of these particular people ... MR. BILTON: You could put me in ... MR.

BOYCE: Well, you know, if the member needs some help to interpret, I'll be glad to help him. But, nevertheless, they are doing their job and they are keeping people out of the system. MR. BILTON: Mr. Chairman, I don't require the Minister to interpret the contents of this material to me. You put me in a room for a month with a bunch of statistics around me, I could make it th ree times that size and that's exactly what you did. All you've got to do is read the terminology of it. Everything is plan, plan, plan, and nothing for the people that we're trying to help. The public are being taxed to help.

Let's have a few honest-to-goodness answers. And talking about money being spent to hire people to work with these people who need this help, we're not getting the answers. And don't keep referring to this th ing. MR. BOYCE: Well, I don't know what the member would like me to refer to.

On Friday when we were discussing this particular item' I was advised that we would have, by the end of this year, some 14 ,000 people referred to the juvenile system; and you will see when we come to the next item that there are on ly about 4,000 of those who had to be detained for some period of time, so roughly 10 ,000 of those people are not detained because they're dealt with in a probation situation. MR. BILTON: Those figures the Minister's given me, how does that tie in with the Department of Welfare? What are they doing as well in assisting people? They're working with your department are they not? MR.

BOYCE: Not on th is particular item, Mr. Chairman. This is probation services relative to the courts. MR. BILTON: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. EDWARD McGILL: Mr. Chairman, when the Minister introduced his Estimates, he made a general statement and then he interjected and he said this: "People who should be in custody, should be in custody.

" I think the Minister will remember making that statement and it impressed me because it inferred that the Minister had some reason to believe that something was wrong with the parole services and that he was not happy with the way in which this was operating. I would like the Minister to just en large upon that statement. Does he recall making that interjection in the introduction of his Estimates and if so, would he please tell me what he meant by that? MR. BOYCE: I do not only recall saying it, Mr. Chairman, I reiterate it.

But nevertheless, parole you asked the question relative to parole - now, parole is a function of the Federal Parole Board, albeit our staff does provide parole services. If the member means that there are some people who are free in a commun ity who perhaps shou ldn't be, then that is another question. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, it is not a question of what I mean, it's what the Minister meant by making this interjection, and I'm sure he wouldn't have said that had he not had something in mind which was critical of the way in whic h parole was being granted in the system. MR.

BOYCE: No, I did n't necessarily mean that I was critical of the system as it was. I meant that society had the right to defend itself, to protect itself, and those people who, for whatever reason are, by sanction of law, to be removed, they should be removed. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, then the Minister had nothing other than that in mind when he said that people who should be in custody, should be in custody. He was not making any particular point or any particular criticism of the way in wh ich paroles are being granted at the present time? Are we to understand that from the Minister's remarks? MR.

BOYCE: The member can well und erstand that from my remarks. I have really in balance no criticism of the Parole Board to the people that they are granting paroles to, albeit there seems to be some restriction of the numbers of paroles that are granted; this is reflected in the statistics which were provided last year also by Stats Canada. MR. McGILL: I have no further comments, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Crescentwood. MR. STEEN: Mr.

Chairman, throug h you to the Minister, when I was on the City of Winnipeg Council, I served on the Health and Welfare Committee for a couple of years and one problem that we had with the City of Winnipeg was in the Welfare Department a fantastic high turnover of professional staff. Not only was the case load exceptionally high but the turnover of staff I would think, and I'm guessing now because it's a few years ago, that the average person did n't stay for more than about a year and a half to two years. Do you find that this is the same with people in the Parole Services? 1305

Monday,March 28, 1977 MR. BOYCE: Well, as I said earlier, Mr. Chairman' this was one of my concerns and it was my impression that we had slowed th is down somewhat. There is a phenomenon, people dealing with other human beings in an intense situation where they have you know, personal or emotional problems, is that there is staff burn-out, I'm advised that we had a 12 percent turnover rate last year. MR. STEEN: Mr.

Chairman, through you to the Minister, how does that relate to, a 12 percent turnover rate, is that an exceptionally good rate in comparison to other provinces and people that perform this duty in other jurisdictions? MR. BOYCE: Well of course to give a proper answer to a question like that .Mr. Chairman, I would have to go back and analyse, you know.in some depth and get some comparative figures from other jurisdictions which - if you want me to hazard a guess, then I will suggest that we are above average in this regard. MR. STEEN: Our retention rate is above average. Mr.

Chairman, perhaps you can correct me but I have a question that could be answered under (c)

(3) Financial Assistance. I was wondering if that item applied to the training of personneland this draws me back to the retention rate of staff. Has the Minister a comment in regard to the cost of training new personnel because of a fairly high turnover in this type of occupation or does that item, Mr. Chairman, through you to the Minister, fall under (c) ? Should I ask that question at that time? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR.

BOYCE: Well this item would be better perhaps dealt with under 7(9), but of course it stands to reason that if your turnover rate is lower then your staff training cost would go do wn. MR. STEEN: All right, Mr. Chairman, I'll leave that for the tim e being. Can the Minister inform the Committee as to the numbers of graduates from the Un iversity of Manitoba School of Social Work, say last year for example, and how many were hired by his department? MR. BOYCE: It will take a moment to dig that information up. MR. STEEN: I have another question then, Mr. Chairman, for the Minister.

Could the Minister inform the Committee as to the steps that are taken by the Parole Officer and the Probation Services prior to a person being released on parole. Can he generally tell us the length of time involved, what does the parole officer and the probationary services look for in an inmate prior to releasing them and can he give us some background? . MR. BOYCE: Here again parole is under the Federal Parole Board and they assess whether a person will or will not be paroled. If they do come to a decision that they will be paroled then we are asked to supervise that parole in some instances. MR.

STEEN: Does the Federal Parole Board have jurisdiction over both Head ingley and institutions that have persons in for a period of a day, less than two years, and less - Dauph in, Brandon and so on, those institutions? MR. BOYCE: Parole is a term that is usually used relative to longer offences. People with shorter offences have such things as statutory remission of sentences and other things, wh ich are better dealt with under the next couple of items as far as incarceration is concerned. MR. STEEN: That's fine for now. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR.

BILTON: On this matter of probation and parole, I th ink it is a well known fact that in our penitentiaries and jails that possibly 50 percent of the inmates are of Ind ian and native background. A few weeks ago we heard of the fact that parolees were paroled and they had to stay in the city to report to their probation officer from time to time and not go back to the reserves or the communit ies from whence they came.

Someone or some party took it upon themselves to call together the Chiefs of the Province with a view to discuss ing this matter so that these people could go back to their reserves or the ir commun ities and run out their paroles there. From the reports very few turned up and certainly it was related that the Ind ian Chiefs were not interested. Would the Minister care to comment on that, Mr. Chairman, and where it stands today? MR.

BOYCE: Well, I don't want to give the usual answer that, you know, Stony Mountain is under federal jurisdiction, but to the problem that the Member refers, it is difficult to get any commun ity to accept the transgressors back into it. You know, this has been with us a long time. In the case that you are referring to about the native plan attempting to set up a program whereby they could advise the Chiefs and their Councils about what was involved in the correctional system, there is an apprehension on the part of any commun ity.

I am periodically approached when a person is sentenced to take some steps to try and prevent the individual from going back to the commun ity from whence he was sentenced in the provincial system also, especially when it deals with particular types of crime against persons. • MR. BILTON: I realize the problem, Mr. Chairman, th rough you to the Minister, but I am wondering if there is any liaison going on between your office Mr. Minister and the federal office and the Indian bands themselves with a view to finding a solution, because I th ink you will agree with me, Mr.

Chairman, that there is no sense to a person being arrested 400 miles from here, facing his charge and going into prison' serving his sentence, and then being held in the City of Winnipeg, where he 1306

Monday,March 28, 1977 possibly has never been before, to carry out his probationary period. I wonder if the Minister in his wisdom will look at this matter very very seriously and see if a better conclusion can be arrived at in the interests of those people. Because, Mr.

Chairman, this is a very very serious matter, to have a man turned loose from jail that has never been in the City of Winnipeg and have to hang around here, I can't use any better term, getting into mischief in order to answer his probation officer and in many many cases, I think you will agree, they get pretty desperate and get into mischief again and the first thing you know they find themselves in jail. Through you, Mr. Chairman, I am asking the Minister in all sincerity to take this matter under immediate study and something be done about it. MR. BOYCE: Mr.

Chairman, as I pointed out earlier the terms and conditions of parole are set down by the Federal Government and they may put a rider on that particular parole that he shall stay in a certain location. They have got some ha lfway houses in the City of Winnipeg and like any other operation some of them work well and some work badly relative to any particu lar individual. I certainly will take the member's concerns to my federal counterparts the next time we are discussing it with them. MR. BILTON: Mr.

Chairman, I wonder if the Minister could give us any idea as to how many people are under surveillance under th is particular program in the City of Winnipeg that are not residents of the City of Winnipeg primarily? MR. BOYCE: Wei I of approximately 16 25 people who are currently on probation - adults - 25 of those are parole supervisions. Now I don't know if my Director could give itt o me as to where they are currently located. But if you want that information I could get it for you. I am advised that these 25 parole supervisions are all in rural Manitoba. MR. BILTON: Just one final question on this subject.

Does the parole system of the province, that is your employees, take on this problem on behalf of the Federal Government or do they have parole officers here that look after these people that are having to answer to the parole officers from time to time. MR. BOYCE: The latter. MR. BILTON: You look after it? They look after it. MR. BOYCE: They look after it. MR. BILTON: How many do they have? You have no idea? MR. BOYCE: We could conceivably find out through the federal authorities how many they have. I would have to take that question as notice. MR. BILTON: Thank you very much. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Crescentwood. MR. STEEN: The Minister mentioned halfway houses in the City of Winnipeg, could the Minister tell us how many such homes the department have and how many persons on average are in each one of these homes? MR. BOYCE: While the staff is looking up the answers to this question, you had asked how many University of Manitoba graduates were hired last year - five were hired last year. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, through you to the Minister, do your staff people, Mr. Minister, have any idea what size of a graduating class there is in the School of Social Work.

Is it a small class or does it crank out numerous graduates? MR. BOYCE: I'm sorry I didn't know the member was going to ask that, I was out at the University today and did n't think of asking that particular question. I don't know how many are in the BSW program, but I think about six are on the MSW program. So at the post-graduate level it is relatively small, but what the size of the undergraduate course is, I'm sorry I haven't got that information. MR. STEEN: Mr.

Chairman, the reason for asking that question, I was just wondering how many persons are available of this professional skill for his department to acquire. That is the reason for asking the question as to what is the size of the graduat ing class in that specialty. Wh ile the Minister is getting an answer on the halfway houses, perhaps he m ight also find out from his department people are these homes located in such centres as Thompson , Flin Flon, The Pas, Brandon, etc. And if so, perhaps he could indicate. MR.

BOYCE: I am advised that we have contracts with five group homes, four in Winnipeg and one outside of Winnipeg. We also use six other group homes in conjunction with Child Welfare in Winnipeg and five in rural Manitoba. The group homes outs ide of Winnipeg are in Rivers and in Brandon, in Grandview, The Pas, and Lac du Bonnet. MR. STEEN: Through you, Mr. Chairman, to the Minister. The Minister in replying to that question said we have contracts with , could he comment a little further.

Is this a service club that runs it and you have a contract with it, or are the persons that run these homes your personnel or just what is the mix? MR. BOYCE: No, they are all community organizations of some kind or other I am advised. They have private boards. MR. STEEN: So in each case they are non-profit commun ity organizations running the half way houses and they could be a service club or they cou ld be a church group or something along those 1307

Monday,March 28, 1977 lines then? MR. BOYCE: It could be any group such as you have mentioned . We also have 12 foster homes. MR. STEEN: For adult s or for juveniles? MR. BOYCE: For juven iles. MR. STEEN: I don't want the Chairman to pu 11 you into order, Mr. Minister. We better leave juven ile for a moment. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 64(c) (1)-pass; 64(c)

(2) Other Expenditures. The Honourable Member for Crescentwood. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, through you to the Minister, the item is up some $65,500.00. Could the Minister comment on what is meant by Other Expenditures? MR. BOYCE: This particular item, to the Member f.or Crescentwood, includes such things as professional fees and rent on furniture and all the rest of it.

Increases are relative to: Transfer of all administrative and accounting staff from Winnipeg Probation to the Directorate in 19 76-77; the addition of an Assistant Rural Director in 19 76-77 with subsequent increases in long distance telephone charges and a general increase in telephone rates; and the completion of negotiations with_ the Federal Government resulting in the Government now assum ing 100 percent of the wage cost for light skilled programs. So there is a shift in this particular appropriation. To decentralize the provisions of services they are relating it to 15 districts and regional offices. MR.

STEEN: Through you, Mr. Chairman, to the Minister, just general housekeeping items that the personnel function under? MR. BOYCE: Right and a shift to the District Office. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. BILTON: I didn't quite catch the Minister's remarks, Mr. Chairman, but I got the impression that he said that this was a share operation with the Federal Government. Is that right? MR. BOYCE: The Federal Government is now assuming 10 0 percent of the wage cost for light skilled programs. And light skill really is a program to involve people in developing work habits. MR. BILTON: Mr.

Chairman, this is Other Expenditures I am talking about, $466,000. We're on that item are we not? MR. BOYCE: Yes. We have to put the money out first and then recover it. MR. BILTON: Well, I appreciate the answer but there's no item here indicating that that's coming ·from Ottawa whatsoever. Why is that? MR. BOYCE: As the member will recall, when you're budgeting for an item like this you have to estimate for the money in the first instance, extend it and then recover from the federal government. MR. BILTON: Have you got any more like this in these Estimates? MR. BOYCE: There are some.

In other instances it gives you a net, when you get over to ... It's printed in the Book on a couple of them ... when you get down to 7(

b) you' ll see the recoverable th ree quarters of a million dollars at the bottom of the page. MR. BILTON: This is rather peculiar bookkeeping wou ldn't you think, Mr. Chairman, that here we have an item of almost a half a million dollars and the Minister says we've got to spend it before we get it back from Ottawa and there's no indication here that it's coming from Ottawa at all. MR. BOYCE: No, no, no, I didn't say that, Mr. Chairman. Onl y part of it. That related to $30,000 as a hund red percent recoverable, the rest of it is relative to decentralization and other expenses. MR. BILTON: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 64(c) (2)-pass. Resolution 64(c)

(3) Financial Assistance. The Honourable Member for Crescentwood. MR. STEEN: In this item, Mr. Chairman, Financial Assistance, we see that it's up by better than $300,000. Is this the item, and I did ask a question earlier' about expenditures of training personnel. Is this the item that it falls under or does expenditure of training personnel come under salaries? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. BOYCE: That comes under Staff Deve lopment. MR. STEEN: Which is in? MR. BOYCE: Down further. MR. STEEN: Oh. MR. BOYCE: (

g) MR. STEEN: Can the Minister then tell us what is meant by Financial Assistance and give us an outline as to why it's up by 25 percent? MR. BOYCE: Well, Mr.

Chairman, this item includes Financial Assistance related to juvenile and adult placement programs and offers residential care and treatment for delinquents placed by juvenile and family court, and the program is limited to in-province placements and settings licensed through the Child Welfare Director, previously included as part of Child Welfare e appropriation but it has now been transferred to the juven ile placement of probation cases accounted with in probation and parole. So there was a transfer actua lly from the child welfare appropriation to th is in the amount of $1,234,800. 1308

Monday,March 28, 1977 MR. STEEN: That's fine. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 64. The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. BILTON: Does th is item include grants to the 50 private agencies that you assist? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. BOYCE: The moneys in this are for provision of services. There is no grant money in this appropriation. MR. BILTON: Well, I take it from the Minister then that this money is expended in the interests of the people we are trying to serve through the parole system; the 104 officers or the 62 in the city and. the 42 in rural Manitoba.

It's the ir cost factor and their general operations? MR. BOYCE: For the placement of young sters in different facilities, yes. MR. BILTON: So we're talking about $4,500,000 in that particular project alone? Right? MR. BOYCE: The whole operation is $4.1 million, yes, Mr. Chairman. · MR. BILTON: That's a heck of a lot of money. Thank you very much. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 64(c) (3)-p ass. (c)-pass. Resolution 64(

d) Care and Treatment of Juvenile Offenders(1) Salaries. The Honourable Member for Crescentwood. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, on Friday last we spent considerable time on this business of juvenile delinquents and the Minister released some statistics that showed Winnipeg as having the highest rate of juvenile offences in all of Canada.

In today's paper there is a release that indicates that perhaps the Minister erred in giving out those facts and over the supper hour I heard the Winnipeg Police Chief, Norman Stewart, say that Winnipeg has the second lowest crime rates in Canada and he presumes that the juvenile rate parallels the adult rate. He did not speak on the juven ile rate but he was speaking on the adult rate. I've done some checking with Statistics Canada and they tell methat the figures and the facts that were released by the Minister the other day are accurate and correct as far as they are concerned. I, therefore, ask you, Mr.

Chairman, is the Minister giving us misleading information as of last Friday and painting a very blue and gloomy picture for Winnipeg as far as the juvenile crime rate? And are the people with Statistics Canada correct or is his news release of today, when he says that the picture isn't nearly as bad correct? And I further would like the Minister to also comment on what the City of Winnipeg Police Chief has said.

I'd like to find out from the Minister, if I could, as to how many first time offenders are involved in these juven ile rates of crime that have been reported, and if he could at some time have his staff also indicate to us how many persons qualify as second and third offenders, and how many hit the category of habitual offenders.

Much attention has been paid to Saturday's news release that appeared on the front page of one of our daily papers painting the picture of Winnipeg having the worst juvenile crime record in all of Canada and I've had, over the weekend, calls from constituents, and many of them have talked about the permissive society that we are living in today.

Many of them are wondering if our detention auth orities, with in the juvenile ranks, are handling these young people in the proper manner and are we unable to zero in on the first-time offenders and try and make the corrections so that these first time offenders are not ending up in the category of repeaters? I've had people, and I know it's not correct because I did ask the question to staff people, say to me that there's a swimming pool at the Kenaston lock-up location that the juvenile people have.

I've checked and found out that a swimming pool does not exist but I have asked the question to staff people; Do you have dances there on the weekends for the young offenders? I'm led to believe that this is true, that there is a social program, a very active social program. I th ink a social program is necessary. I think that it would be very bad to have these young offenders locked in thei r rooms like animals in a cage day in and day out, but are we getting so liberal with our social program that it is no longer a deterrent to be placed in such a detention home, that it is becoming a luxury. Perhaps, Mr.

Chairman, through you the Minister could make some comment on the recent statements that seem to contradict one another, and in time perhaps his staff people can give us a breakdown as to the offenders, as to first, second, third and what we call hab itual offenders in the juvenile area. MR. BOYCE: First of all, Mr. Chairman, someone had asked me for the population figures in the juvenile institutions, what they are currently. In the Man itoba Youth Centre there are 18 7 with a capacity of 150. In the Manitoba Home for Boys there are 74 with a capacity of 80.

In the Manitoba Home for Girls there is 26 with a capacity of 45. In response to the Member for Crescentwood's comment about the figures of Statistics Canada that I distributed on Friday. I'm sorry I'm not responsible for what the Winnipeg Free Press prints. The information was provided to our office by Stats Canada in response to an inquiry, and we received this information on March 14 , 1972 on the letterhead of Stats Canada. Nevertheless there is not any substantial disagreement between the City of Winnipeg police figures and our own.

Th is item -we just got into this and we were completely out of order- why the particular reporter chose this particular time to take part of the information and attribute those 1309

Monday,March 28, 1977 statistics to me as if I had released them, that is a question perhaps he should answer not me. In fact tonight in the Tribune, he missed out a word, and it appears on the front page story of the Tribune that I had vouched for the validity of these particular figures, whic h I did not. But the numbers - I have a report from the Chief of Police file relative to last year - and his figures are in agreement with the figures that we have at the Youth Centre and they certainly don't reflect the problem as set out by Stats Canada.

Your question about social activities, I am advised that they did have two social evenings there, dancing, two in the past six months. To the quest ion of whether these people are being pampered, as you well know, we do get these criticisms once in awhile, and I too get phone calls periodically about the non-existent swimming pool. But I would suggest here, once again, Mr. Chairman, we're dealing with youth in some difficulty, and if you recall the Youth Centre was built initially as a position of ... in that the people would go in there for short periods of time and be assessed.

We'd have staff deployed to assess them and then place them back in commun ity residences; place them back into the community. We're just starting to move to acquire some of these counity resources so that really, relative to the Youth Centre itself, it's still not functioning as it was designed in the first instance. To the members question, about 34 percent of those who are involved are first offenders whom about 90 percent that is a one-involvement experience.

Approximately 11 percent of those involved require some kind of commun ity supervision, such as probation, and less than 1 percent require provincial institutionalization, and less than 1 percent are transferred to Adult Court. MR. CHAIRN: Resolution 64(d)( 1) . The Honourable Mem ber for Crescentwood. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, through you to the Minister. The Minister commented about the two social evenings that had been held at the Youth Centre. On the occasion of a social evening are persons from outside of the Youth Centre permitted to attend those social evenings or is it just for those that are residents?

MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. BOYCE: I am advised that it is restricted to people that are involved with the Youth Centre itself. The people in the institution or people from the commun ity who are serving there in a voluntary capacity. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, I have been informed that there have been young people held in the .Youth Centre for more than a year at a time. Is that true, Mr. Minister? MR. BOYCE: It could be, yes. MR.

STEEN: Maybe I could be a little more direct and not get an answer, "It could be." Have there been persons in the past that have spent more than 12 months in the Youth Centre at a time. MR. BOYCE: Yes. MR. STEEN: So, therefore, as the Minister said and adm itted, thatthe Youth Centre is not working out to the extent that the department and he had hoped it would as a stopping-off spot so that you could analyze the young offender and then properly send the young offender, or slot him into his proper category. So, you're still going through some growing pains at the Youth Centre? MR.

BOYCE: Relative to those who are held for the period of time that the member mentioned, I can't go into the specifics of any particular case because of the federal statutes but nevertheless some people are held there, and it is done by sanction of the court, that this is the best place for that particular individual to be. MR. STEEN: Through you, Mr. Chairman, to the Minister. Were there any juven iles with in the last 12 months that have been sent out of the province and kept at a location outside of Manitoba? MR. BOYCE: Yes, Mr. Chairman. MR. STEEN: Mr.

Chairman, the fig ure of 64 juvenile offenders being sent out of Manitoba to either serve their sentence or to be housed has been given to me. Can the Minister comment on that figure? MR. BOYCE: I'm advised in our area we only had three placed outside of the province last year, and we have none placed outs ide at the moment but there were three placed outside of Manitoba last year. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, through you to the Minister. Why would we have sent th ree or placed three juvenile offenders outs ide of the province last year?

Have we not the facilities with in Manitoba to cope with those types of offenders? MR. BOYCE: In the judgement of the people that are involved, no. We did n't have these facilities available. The other alternatives in other provinces were deemed better for those th ree individuals. MR. STEEN: Through you, Mr. Chai rman, to the Minister. Another province has better facilities than we have? Is this what the Minister is referring to when he says that we had three offenders outside of Manitoba last year? MR. BOYCE: No, I didn't say that, Mr.

Chairman, in fact one of the Wilderness Camps in Saskatchewan, as you will recall, was closed recently. This was one of the facilities that was thought to perhaps be of some util ity in treatment of young people. But nevertheless they were forced to close it down. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, then if it was deemed advisable by the Minister and his staff people 1310

Monday,March 28, 1977 that th ree persons in the past should have been at a Saskatchewan Wilderness Camp, what are we going to do when such a juvenile offender comes before us in the future that would be better off in a Wilderness Camp? Obviously that is a person that needs treatment in an isolated wilderness camp. What are we going to do with such an offender in the future if the Saskatchewan camp has been closed? MR. BOYCE: In co-operation with the Child Welfare people, we're opening our own. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR.BILTON: Mr.

Chai rman, this item of salaries (1) , could the Ministeroutl ine to us the number of staff that this covers and the possible location? And categorize? MR. BOYCE: There are 130 located at the Manitoba Youth Centre; 54 at the Home for Boys; 33 at the Home for Girls; 8 in charge of the Group Home Care Program - for a total of 225. MR. BILTON: The 130 at the Local Treatment Centre, could you give us the categories of ... I realize the re's probably a 24-hour shift there of 8-hour sh ifts. Could the Minister break that down for us or is that too much? How many directors have you got?

How many superintendents have you got and so on in that 130? MR. BOYCE: The gross breakdown as we keep it, there are 80 cottage staff and then there's 50 support staff. I guess the easiest way for us to deal with it would be to give you a breakdown of a shift. There's a superintendent, then there's a supervisor of institutional program, one administrative officer and one admin istrative . assistant. MR. BILTON: That's for every sh ift? MR. BOYCE: Yes. MR. BILTON: Why is that? MR. BOYCE: Well, no I'm sorry, this is for the day shift. Excuse me, for every day shift. MR. BILTON: Yes okay, you're excused . MR.

BOYCE: There's one ad ministrative assistant, one program resident co-ordinator, one supervisory secretary, a switchboard operator, two clerk-typists, those would really be in the supervisory category that the member asked me. And then there's one woodworking instructor, one recreational instructor, one special program supervisor, one special program staff, 2 Vi escort staff, one chaplain, one court liaison officer, one courtroom supervisor, a nurse, five unit directors, five cottage supervisors, ten teachers and ten counsellors. That's on the day sh ift. That's how they're broken down.

In the evening sh ift, you have one special program staff, two ad ministrative staff' a nurse and twenty counsellors. The night sh ift is one special program staff, one adm inistrative staff and ten night supervisors. MR. BILTON: Mr. Chairman, I understood the Minister to say that there's one courtroom supervisor. Does he work with the parole officers, or what goes on here? It looks as though there's a lot of top-heavy staff in the Treatment Centre, and in the courtroom you've only got one man, is that right? MR. BOYCE: I'm advised that this person just supervises them wh ile they're waiting court appearances.

MR. BILTON: Supe rvises whom? MR. BOYCE: The people who are in the Youth Centre as they move back and forth from the courtroom, the residents of the Youth Centre. It would be somewhat comparable to a sheriff in an adult court, in that context. MR. BILTON: Mr. Chairman, I wonder why there is an increase in this item of over $500,000.00? Or approximately $500,000 in salaries? MR. BOYCE: Well, if the member will note, the increase is relative to salaries. There is an additional two staff man years in the negotiated agreement with the Manitoba Government Employees' Association.

The other expenditures, you will note that it has actua lly decreased from $730,000 last year to $600,000 that they're asking for this year. MR. BILTON: Could the Minister explain the reason for the $750,000 recoverable from the Federal Government? What's that all about? MR. BOYCE: Well, some of the programs are cost-shared with the Federal Government. Specifically, the Home for Boys and the Home for Girls are cost-shared with the Federal Government, the costs of operation of those two facilities. MR. BILTON: Mr.

Chairman, with these youngsters, are they expected to make their own beds, keep their rooms clean, do the general janitorial work around, or what do these youngsters do whilst they're confined there? Do they work in the kitchen and thi s sort of thing? MR. BOYCE: Yes, Mr. Chairman. MR. BILTON: No maid service? MR. BOYCE: I'm afraid not. No, they do, they keep their own cottages clean and all the rest of it. Excuse me, the Department of Public Works mows the lawn. 1311

Monday,March 28, 1977 MR.BILTON: Mr. Chairman, do they run a small laundry to do all the laundry for the inmates? Or is that put out? MR. BOYCE: No, Mr. Chairman, they don't. MR. BILTON: That's put out? MR. BOYCE: Yes. MR. BILTON: Through you Mr. Chairman, could the Minister give us some idea of a day's activity, what happens throughout the day with these youngst ers? MR. BOYCE: Well, as you are aware, Mr. Chairman, these are young sters who are in school, so most of their involvement during the day would be in trying to upg rade them academic ally with the teaching staff that we have available.

In the evenings there's counselling sessions, they talk to counsellors and they have group sessions and other types of programs like that. MR. BILTON: And they have fully qualified teachers for the several grades? MR. BOYCE: Yes, yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Crescentwood. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, through you to the Minister, earlier I mentioned the figures that the Winnipeg Police Department and the Minister seem to agree upon as to our juvenile crime rate. I therefore ask the Minister why he introduced the Stats Canada figures on Friday that show the picture to be twice as bad as it is.

Was that a political error in ju dgment ordid he wantt o tryto mislead the committee or does he agree with the Stats Canada figures and not the comment of the City of Winnipeg Police Chief? MR. BOYCE: Mr. Chairman , I wo n't react to that because it doesn't behoove the member to attribute motives. Nevertheless, time will tell whether it was an error in political judgement or not. That wasn't my intention.

I will repeat what I have said about th ree times: When I introduced my Estimates, I circulated - perhaps I shouldn' t have circulated the two documents, the Member for Swan River doesn't think it does any good anyway, it's just a bunch of gobb ledey-gook, - that particular set of statistics, I thoug ht might be of interest to the committee when we were reviewing my Estimates. What other people choose to reason to it, I have to leave it with them. MR. STEEN: Through you, Mr. Chairman, to the Mi nister, are the figures released by Statistics Canada in the view of the Minister, incorrect? MR.

BOYCE: All the information that I have, Mr. Chairman' they certainly are incorrect. The Winnipeg Police, I think that their figures would show that in the same year, they had some 4,049 people charged for some 10 ,000 offences. I don't have to look the figures up; I'm quite familiar with them . MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, I would hope that the Minister could have some of those figures at his fingertips. He is a full-time Minister and he is heading up a department and it's not his first year in that particular role. I would hope he'd have some answers to some of these questions. MR.

BOYCE: If I may finish, the Winnipeg Police reflect 4,049 cases charged ; our figures reflect something like 4'582 or 5, I'm sorry I don't recall that specific figure, difference being that those people who appear in the Winnipeg Family Court are those that are referred by the R.C.M .P. But there's really no disagreement, I repeat' between the City of Winnipeg's figures and ours. MR. STEEN: Well, I would just conclude, Mr.Chairman, that I find it rather strange that the Minister would introduce to the committee figures as he did on Friday by another agency that he disagreed with.

I usua lly thought that those opportunities were for the Members of the Op position. My colleague, the Member for Wolseley, is very good at th rowing in red herrings and this is very strange and odd when the Minister th roughs a red herring into his own Estimates. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. WILSON: Well, my point was exactly that. The Minister has given us these figures and, as you know, it was reported that I was rather shocked and I certainly took it upon myself to say in glowing terms what a great job our police establishment has been performing.

I wonder if the Minister might care to comment, why would the author ities in the Winnipeg Police Department become so upset with the Minister? I thoug ht you two gentlemen would have common goals and if you did have a very large arrest ratio or detention ratio, wouldn't this be something that the law enforcement agencies would be proud of rather than getting into a dispute with the media? I wonder if the Minister might care to comment on that portion of it. MR.

BOYCE: I don't think I shou Id comment on the member's sugg estion that the operation of the Winnipeg Police Department is under the aegis of the Winnipeg Police Commission. Nevertheless, our goals are common in that we are trying as best we can to provide peace and security in the communi ty. · MR. WILSON: Well again , because -a nd I apologize, I have to be in two committees at once - it's just that the Minister of Health is ... of course, mind you, here's the Minister of Corrections, we're talking about a juvenile problem that has been announced is one of the worst in Canada.

Hansard isn't ready but I hope to be able to look tomorrow and it should point out that the Minister indicated to 1312

Monday,March 28, 1977 me that these were 19 75 figures and in fact, the figure to the end of 19 76 migh t be as high as 14 ,000. Do you recall saying something in that area? MR. BOYCE: I definitely do, that we would have dealt with 14 ,000 young people in 19 76. MR. WILSON: Mr. Chairman, my point is this: If the Winnipeg Police become very upset about a figure of 7,963, what are they going to be when the news becomes known that it's going to be 14 ,000 to the end of 19 76? Maybe the Minister would care to comment on that. Where does he get his estimate of 14 ,000? MR.

BOYCE: That is the best advice of staff when they start bringing the figures up to the end of this month whic h is the end of our fiscal year. MR. WILSON: Well, then I'm still at a loss. I was rather concerned yesterday that Winnipeg was leading in the juvenile Criminal Code offences, in other words, they were actually charged. Now someone in another enforcement agency says that these figures aren't correct.

The thing that concerns me is ... you know, you're both working to a common end but they seem to take offence to the fact that they are No.1 in Canada and I can't see why any people with a common goal wouldn't want to let this committee know what the exact figures are. In other words, wh ile we don't want to be proud of the fact that we've got a lot of juvenile crime, maybe if it's driven home that we arethe leaders in Canada - if these figures are correct and if the Mi nister's projections to the end of 19 76 are correct, then I can't see why the pub lic can't be given the facts.

Certainly they should be given the facts under this Minister's Estimates; it is his second year under this full-time position and, while he does specialize and has done a great job under alcoholic situations, what does he estimate under juvenile charges that he can give us before his Estimates are over; maybe under his Minister's Salary that will give us these true figu res, or if not true, then maybe an estimate of what they might be. MR. BOYCE: I sympathize with the member, Mr.

Chairman, that he can't be in two places at once but nevertheless I think I'd be discou rteous to the comm ittee itself if I spent the time rehashing just exactly what we've been talking about for the last hour and a half. The member has indicated , so that he intends to read Hansard I wou Id suggest that he reads what we've been talking about for the last hour and a half and what we're doing in this particular field. MR. WILSON: Well, then I assume that by reading Hansard I will get the exact figure. In your previous comments when I wasn't here, did you mention where you arrived at the figure of 14 ,000 from?

MR. BOYCE: I just gave it to the member a moment ago where I arrived at the figure from. It's what the staff advises that we will have been involved with for the year when the books close. You know, it's a matter of public record. It is regrettable that these figures are almost a year behind but they do put out a departmental annual report.

Each member of the Legislature gets it and it gives you a breakdown table by table just exactly what is involved, what the offences are, how many are charged, the age breakdown; all these pieces of information are public knowledge and the breakdown of figures that we used 14 ,000 or 10 ,000 will be reflected in this particular document when it's released. MR. WILSON: Well, I'm sorry if I missed it but are you now stating again I say I apologize, but did you state before that Winnipeg was not No.1 in Canada? MR. BOYCE: No, I did not. I stated I didn't know where Winnipeg was.

I �now that my figures don't disagree substantially with those presented by the City of Winnipeg Police. MR. WILSON: I see. Well then . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Or der please. I would remind the honourable member he should add ress his remarks to the Chair, and not directly to the Minister. The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. WILSON: Well then, could I ask one more question? In this registry that you have, and you may have given this answer to one of the other mem bers: What is the length of time before these juveniles can have their slates cleared?

What time are they able to go out into the work force without having the ir juvenile crime records th rown up against them? I'm particularly th inking of what happens if we 400 of these charges happened to be drug-related charges for possession of marijuana and th ree years down the road' marijuana might become legalized. What happens to their criminal record for these 400 young people? under the Ju venile Delinquency Act, if MR.

BOYCE: Well' a person is charged as a juven ile, that is privileged information and is not released to the public, but as far as a person's record being expunged, the person can when they've decided they have a chance of having their record expunged, they apply for a pardon and ofttimes they get it and then th eir record is expunged . But as far as the public having access to juvenile records, that is not the case because it is privileged information so it is not given out holus-bolus if somebody should apply for a job, the record is not public knowledge. MR. WILSON: Mr.

Chairman, what I'm trying to get at is, itseems that a juven ile offender at age 16 could go to probably age 23 and appear in adult court, at what point in time is he able to appear in that court as an adult and not have his juvenile record brought up and the biases of the court then appear against this man because he is then considered a two-t ime loser. Is there no definite line between juvenile and adult? In other words, like a driver's license, is there no time limit where he gets some points for good behaviour? 1313

Monday,March 28, 1977 MR. BOYCE: At the present time there is no such provision unless a person, as I said, applies for a pardon and then the record is expunged . There has been some suggestion in conversations across the country that there be established an automatic expu nging of records after five years, relative to any one, but at the moment there is no such provision. MR. WILSON: Mr. Chairman, will this Minister, if he continues in this portfolio, press for a five year expiry mandatory cleaning of the record?

If somebody stays out of trouble for five years, they shouldn't have to hire a lawyer to get their record cleared off. MR. BOYCE: Well, of course, the member should make his views known to the Federal Government who is responsible for the Criminal Code in this regard. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Leader of the Oppo sition. MR. LYO!"t Mr. Chairman, under the care of juveniles, could the Minister tell us about what hold ing facilities he has for juven iles at The Pas? MR. BOYCE: Right at the moment it is a temporary situation.

I don't know -w ell anyway, even if I have said it before- the old jai l at The Pas was closed down several months ago and we moved all of the population into Adco trailers and the juveniles regretful ly are housed in the Adco trailers. There are plans on the drafting board at the moment. Hopeful ly we should be able to go to tender this fall on a new facility for The Pas. MR. LYON: What would the average length of stay of juveniles be at The Pas? MR. BOYCE: At The Pas? It is generally two days; if a person stay is longer, they can ask for a transfer to the Manitoba Youth Centre in Winnipeg. MR. LYON: Mr.

Chairman, how many ju veniles, if any, are held at the facilities at The Pas after disposition in the Juvenile Court? MR. BOYCE: It will take me a minute to get that information. I am advised that none are held in The Pas after disposition of the Court. MR. LYON: That's invariable, I presume. None are ever held at The Pas. MR. BOYCE: That is what I am advised, yes. MR. LYON: If sentenced in The Pas to, say, a term under six months, they would then be sent to the Home for Boys or the Home for Girls or whatever eh? MR. BOYCE: Yes. MR. LYON: Mr.

Chairman, would the Minister have any indication of what the travel and the custodial charges would be on a fiscal year basis for transportation of committed juveniles to the southern facilities? MR. BOYCE: I can get that information. It will take a moment to dig it up. MR. LYON: It might as well include everything North of '53, if you could in that category, because they tend to be disposed of through that chain of courts on the Bay line and so on. MR. BOYCE: I may not be able to provide it tonight.

That would be under travel generally but doubt less they have it broken down finer than that so that the member ... MR. LYON: Mr. Chairman, what are the facilities, the holding facilities for juveniles in Brandon at the present time? MR. BOYCE: They too are held in the adult facility in Brandon. MR. LYON: That's in the old jail? MR. BOYCE: Yes. MR. LYON: A separate wing of the old institution that's hived off for th is purpose? MR. BOYCE: Yes. MR. LYON: How many cells or what accommodation ... ? MR. BOYCE: Part of it is hived off and I have to ask the staff just exactly how many cells are involved. MR.

LYON: The Home for Boys at Portage la Prairie I notice, according to the latest figures, Mr. Chairman, that the Minister has given us, is operating roughly four to five with in capacity. Who is the present superintendent of the Home for Boys? MR. BOYCE: Mr. Terry . Rempel. MR. LYON: Mr. Terry Rempel? MR. BOYCE: Yes. MR. LYON: Mr. Atkinson, the former superintendent, is gone where? MR. BOYCE: Through you, Mr. Chairman, to the Leader of the Opposition, I know he left before I was in the ministry, about four or five years ago I'm advised. MR. LYON: I see. Is he in the ... ? MR. BOYCE: He went to B. C. MR.

LYON: He's not in the correction system in Manitoba any longer? MR. BOYCE: Not in Manitoba, no. MR. LYON: I see. And the program Mr. Chairman, that the Minister has noted in his backg round notes for the department, the program of - for want of a better term - co-educa tional facilities at the Home for Girls, how is the hiving off ach ieved as between the girls and the boys? I'm familiar with the 1314

Monday,March 28, 1977 general structure of the place. Any new facilities bui lt to accommodate this experiment or not? MR. BOYCE: The answer to your former question is: In Brandon, there are two dorms on the second floor whic h are completely separate from the rest of the institution. There are four juveniles. That's in Brandon. And then at the Home for Girls, they're in a separate unit by themselves. There is no new construction since . . . MR. LYON: I see. That's all for the moment, thanks, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 64(d)(1) - pass; (d)

(2) Other Expenditures. The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. BILTON: Yes, could I have an explanation from the Minister of this expenditure in detail? MR. BOYCE: Mr. Chairman, to the Meer for Swan River, I have it broken down in very fine detail and it's broken down in th ree ... MR. BILTON: Well, just give a ... MR. BOYCE: ... but what the reduction actually is, it's from the $730,000 to $600,000, a decrease. MR. BILTON: Yes. MR. BOYCE: ... is primarily in subsistence.

As the astute Member for Swan River hit me with an Order for Return as far as meal costs in the institutions across-the-board are concerned, you'll see there's a wide variation in it with the programs that they are instituting with the food services off, they intend to make it more uniform and are setting a much lower target as far as subsistence is concerned for th is fiscal year. MR. BILTON: I just have one more question, Mr. Chairman, in totality of this item before we leave it, and it's just occurred to me: Do the parents take any

part in the rehabilitating of these youngsters in this institution here in the City of Winnipeg? And where do they fit in, or do they fit in at all? Are they encouraged to assist the auth orities with these youngsters that are under detention? MR. BOYCE: Yes, of course, the primary goal with th is institution is to try to integrate these people back wherever possible with their families andby and large, it is through that effort that the youngsters are moved back into the commun ity.

There are some that, you know, because of the circumstances, those kind of arrangements can't be made, but nevertheless one of the aims of the whole juvenile system is to try and integrate these people back into their families, in co-operation with the parents. MR. BILTON: No, but, the point I was trying to make: are the parents invited into the institution for the purpose of rehabil itation of their particular youngster or youngsters before a probation officer or what ha ve you? Are they invited into the institution to work with their own children? MR. BOYCE: Yes, Mr. Chairman, they are. MR. BILTON: Thanks . MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. WILSON: I wonder if in this breakdown which we did n't get, if the Minister has a

section under whic h he deals with special purchases. What I'm interested in is: Would this be the

section under the different youth centres where, for instance, how much money - would you have it broken down this fine that, say you had to buy 10 0 T. V. sets, would it show up in this section? MR. BOYCE: If I was buying one T.V. set, Mr. Chairman, it would show up under this

section yes. MR. WILSON: Then would the Minister be able to tell me how much he spent for T.V.s and tape recorders? How would it be packaged together; what wou Id it be called, special purchases? Or would it be broken down into ... ? MR. BOYCE: It would appear under such an item as equipment. I can give the member on notice that kind of detail if he desires it I can give him that.how many T.V. sets, egg beaters, or whatever. MR. WILSON: Well, then is there another

section that deals with replacement for willful damage. I mean, do you keep track of people that might be sniffing or doing something in one of these youth centres and go off their tree and damage someth ing? Is there any item in th is $600,000 that says, last year there was $30,000 for willfu I damage, the year before there was 60, and maybe the final question would be: Is it less or more than the year before? MR. BOYCE: Well that particu lar- as far as ongoing maintenance was concerned, Mr. Chairman, this appears in the expend itures of maintenance.

If the member desires the specific expenditures relative to any job we could get him the detai ls. He could make the assessment whether it was as a result of willful damage or just ordinary wear and tear. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. WILSON: Mr. Chairman, is there any way that the Minister could tell us in just general terms how this $600,000 is made up. This is the same question that the Member from Swan River asked only I just wanted just a generalizing so that I can see how you are spending the money as it pertains to juveniles. MR. BOYCE: Mr.

Chairman, the Member has asked for this particular question. This is incidental wages and other assistance $7,1 00; professional fees $1 ,300; other fees $3,000; furniture and office equipment $3,700; bringing in stationery $6,500; postage, , telegraphs and telegrams $9,600; furniture and furnishings $8,400; building maintenance supplies, that includes wax and cleaning 1315

Monday,March 28, 1977 stuff, $28,200; utilities, heating $40,000, gasoline and lubricants -$ 1,2 00; medical equipment $15,400; auto mileage charges and related costs is $9,000; materials and routine maintenance is $12,800; $200 for timber; advertising exhibits is $2,500; publications and subscriptions is $100; light express and cartage is $4, 100; travel $700; and miscellaneous $11,000; cloth ing $3,200; educational systems $1,300; and tees, services for subsistence are $224,400, this of course is the biggest item; seed and garden supplies, there is none budge ted this year tor that.

This is relative to the Youth Centre. MR. WILSON: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. WILSON: Could the Minister then explain two thi ngs. He has got fees and professional fees, I believe he said $1, 300 and then he said other fees $3,000.00. Why would it be necessary to hire a lawyer if you have staff lawyers in government? MR. BOYCE: That is an assumption that it is for a lawyer. I can get a breakdown of what the money was spent for. You see, for the Member's information what this money was spent for in the last fiscal year is up for examination in Public Accounts.

When you are budgeti ng for the ensuing year you take what you had spent last year and extrapolate it in the next year. And you know what is anticipated , what they are going to spend that $3,000, that is a decrease from $1 1 ,000 that they spent in Other Fees last year that is down to $3,000 for next year. And what the $11,000 was spent for, I could get that information for the Member. But it is a decrease tor that particu tar amount from $11,000 down to $3,000, so it is an anticipation of a need of some professional services. Whether it is lawyers or not, I don't know at this time. MR.

WILSON: Well, in other words you wou ldn't know what those fees were for. However, then could I ask the Minister would he know what the auto allowances of $9,000 wou ld be for? MR. BOYCE: The Youth Centre is occupied by residents who have to be transported from there to the nearest courts and the rest of it is for transportation costs relative to the people that are resident in the Youth Centre. MR. WILSON: I notice there was another item for travel lower down . Wou Id this sort of the defining it in a difference between travelling by auto and the other one travelling by plane?

You had an item of $800 I believe for travel farther down. MR. BOYCE: That I am advised is for staff travel. MR. WILSON: Staff travel. MR. BOYCE: When you mention aircraft you mentioned the Leader of the Opposition, we will provide the figures on what the transportation costs are for those necessary to use air services. MR. WILSON: Well, I have no further questions.

I think he has given us some idea of how he arrives at $600,000.00, except that, to just say that on one hand last year it was $1 1,000 and this year it is only $4,300, I'd like as a new member examining these Estimates, I'd like to knowwhat the fees areforand I am sure the Minister will get us the answers. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 64(d) (2) -pass; (d)- pass; Resolution 64(

e) Care and Treatment of Adult Off enders: (1 ) Salaries. The Honourable Mem ber for Swan River. MR. BILTON: Again could I ask the Minister to give us a breakdown as to where these salaries are going to the tune of $5,000,000, wh ich is an increase of some million and a half over last year? Does that indicate an increase in staff and what are the number of staff? MR. BOYCE: Mr.

Chairman, the staffing pattern for the Adult Corrections is: At Head ingley Correctional Institution we have 166, at the Vaughan Street Detention Centre 4, at Bannock Point, this is a rehabilitation camp, 11, and the Commun ity Release Centre 9, and Winnipeg Remands 41, Egg Lake Camp 8, Brandon Correctional Institu tion 39, Spruce Woods. Camp 5, the Portage Correctional Institution 19, and in Administration we have 11' for a total of 348 and we are asking tor approval tor 363, 24 of wh ich is relative to the negotiated takeover of the Public Safety Bui lding .

I would give the meer the following information also - that currently in Heading ley we have 355 people sentenced, 59 on a remand situati on, 19 are on weekend sentences, for a total of 433, and the capacity at Headingly is 325. In Bannock Point we have 34, the capacity is 40. In Vaug han Street we have 59 and the rated capacity is 52. In Brandon we have 87 and the rated capacity is 106. Spruce Woods we are opening up, there is no one there at the moment, it has a capacity of 21. The Pas, currently there are 34, it has a capacity of 52. Egg Lake we have 27, it has a capacity of 28.

In Dau phin we have 40 with a capacity of 18. In Portage we have 29 with a capacity of 45. So the current population is 743 and the rated capacity of our facilities is 687. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. BILTON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It looks Mr. Minister as though you are crowded to say the least. Are you suggesting to the Committee that these figures that you have given us are consistent month by month throughout the year or is this just in the winter months when your load is heavier? MR. BOYCE: This is right at the moment, as of last Friday. 1316

Monday,March 28, 1977 MR. BILTON: I beg your pardon? MR. BOYCE: This is as of last Friday. MR. BILTON: Could the Minister indicate to the Committee as to whether or not this is the sort of thing that goes on every month for twelve months of the year or is it somewhat lower in the summer months as opposed to the winter? MR. BOYCE: No, but th is figure has been steadily rising over the past year. MR.

BILTON: I notice that the Minister is going for a 15 increase, that is in personnel, is he considering the personnel in these camps that he mentioned earlier that he was going to set up around the province for juveniles? MR. BOYCE: No, this is relative to adult offenders, this appropriation, Mr. Chairman. MR. BILTON: I appreciate that Mr. Chairman, but I am ju st wondering, the Minister did mention that in view of the close down of the Saskatchewan layout that he had in mind that we were going to set up our own camp or camps.

I realize I'm a little off the beam, but what are his plans for personnel for that if I might ask him at th is time? MR. BOYCE: Well, as I said, Mr. Chairman, that particular program is in cooperation with the Department of Health, Child Welfare Division, and it is contemplated that it will be with a commun ity based organization, such as we alluded to with some of the programs for juveniles. MR. BILTON: The Minister has given us the high note insofar as the inmates are concerned in Head ingley Jail as of last week, I th ink he said, what is the lowest number and the month? MR.

BOYCE: The lowest total population would be, in Januar y of 19 76 it was 344 or no, I'm sorry, in April it was 337. MR. BILTON: It is more or less fluid all the way through the year, would you say that Mr. Minister? MR. BOYCE: Our past experience is such that it goes up in the summertime. MR. BILTON: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Crescentwood. MR. STEEN: Mr.

Chairman, th rough you to the Minister, could the Minister tell us - I understand that the Provincial Government is taking over a greater deg ree of the responsibility of the Public Safety Bui lding in downtown Winnipeg in the lockup, as far as the costs involved in the lockup facility there - could the Minister inform us as to the provincial government's responsibility and what role the provincial government is now playing in regard to that institution? MR.

BOYCE: Last year, well for the current fiscal year whic h expires at the end of this month, we had undertaken with the City of Winnipeg that we would pay them up to $500,000 relative to those services that they provided for people in a remand situation. In other words, not all of the people who were on remand were in Head ingley, some of them were held for short periods in the Public Safety Bui lding if it was a short period of time before thei r court appearance.

We had announced that we would be accepting responsibility of the administration of that as of the first of the next fiscal year, whic h is April 1, and we will be picking up the operational cost of that facility. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, through you to the Min ister, is that half a million dollar figure shown in (e) (1 ) Salaries or is it shown in the (2) item, Other Expenditures? It's obviously a new item, is it, Mr. Minister, a new expenditure? MR. BOYCE: It was carried last year. You will see that when it was printed there was half a million dollars printed relative to th is item for 19 76-77.

But in 19 77-78 that's down $62,800, so that the other costs are spread th rough the other appropriations. Where, you know' the salaries of the staff for the operation of the Pu blic Safety Bui lding are included in the Staff, and the costs of operation are included in the Other Exp enditures, which is one of the reasons why it increases from $1 ,600,000 to $1 ,900,000. MR. STEEN: Through you Mr.

Chairman, to the Minister, in years gone by when the City of Winnipeg was in full control of this Pu blic Safety Building lockup centre, occasionally a person was held in that detention facility for up to months at a time.

Now that this has been incorporated into the provincial government's scheme, when a person has got to be held for some months pending trial and retrial, and as the Minister and others well know how lawyers jockey for positions in court, can we foresee in the future where persons who used to have long stays in this lockup centre will be removed from this lockup centre and put into a facility where there is a deg ree of recreation and other activities for that type of person? MR. BOYCE: It is contemplated that those people that are bound over will be held in Headingley, not in the Pub lic Safety Build ing.

As the member is aware the facility never was designed as a remand facility, it was designed as a lockup, and a lockup implies it is just for a short period of time. In fact, Judge O'Sulliv an ruled that it was cruel and unusual punishment to hold a person in there for too long a period. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, through you to the Minister, the Minister does agree with me that the facility has been misused in the past and has been used as a lockup facility, and where persons have had stays up to two .and th ree months at a time with in that facility. Correct? MR. BOYCE: Regrettably, that is the case, Mr.

Chairman. I'm sorry, because of demands on space, 1317

Monday,March 28, 1977 we have no other alternative but there are physical changes being made to the building itself, in addition to this taking it over physically. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, perhaps the Minister could tell us that if a person is on a remand what is the number of days that that person is waiting when you make, or your department makes a decision as to whether the person should remain in a lock-up facility with in the city or go out to Head ingly, for example? MR. BOYCE: Well, it will be dependent upon how quickly we can renovate the place.

If it is as it is at the moment, it will take some time to renovate it. The advice that I have is that eventually, when it is modified so that it will function as a remand centre, that they could possibly be in there three months, if they are on remand for th ree months. MR. STEEN: Did I hear you correctly, that if a person was remanded and it's a matter of months, that they wou ld be detained in the Public Safety Building fac ility, rather than sent out to Heading ley Correctional Institute? MR. BOYCE: After it is renovated' yes, Mr. Chairman.

But I repeatthatthere is capital available for the renovation of that. It is not as it is currently known. I'm sure that the member has physically seen the facility and it is a lock-up, but once it is renovated and is functioning as part of the remand capacity of the province then people cou ld conceivably be held in there for that length of time. MR. STEEN: Mr.

Chairman, perhaps the Minister cou ld tell the Committee what renovation changes are going to be made that are going to make it mor-e pleasant or acceptable for the person to stay there for lengthy remands, because as the Minister said, a judge said that that was the cruelest form of punishment being locked in cells day in and day out. And I wou ld agree with whoever that judge was. I missed his name when the Minister made the comment. But what magic are you performing in the way of renovations that it will be a suitable holding location? MR. BOYCE: Th rough you , Mr.

Chairman, the comments that were made by the judg e in making the decision will be rectified. As I sa id, the cells are small and ,they have bunks in there with no mattresses and the rest of that sort of stuff. As best we can, we will provide some amenities, such as exercise yards and proper feeding facilit ies and there will be more space per resident. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. WILSON: Thank yo u, Mr. Chairman. Would the Minister have a similar document to this prepared by his staff from federal figures that would indicate that Winnipeg has the hig hest adult crime in Canada?

Would we have a document that would give us what percentage Winnipeg might be in Canada as per criminal code offences under adult crimes charged? Would the Minister have a document similar for dealing with adu lts? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. BOYCE: Well, to the Member once again, I didn't prepare the figures. Stats Canada prepared the figures. If the member wishes figu res from Stats Canada, I would sugge st with all the agg ravation that I've caused in even giving you those figu res, that you contact Stats Canada and get your own figures. MR. WILSON: Mr.

Chairman, with all due respect to the Minister I did not ask for th is particular document, but since we are dealing with his Estimates and if his staff prepared one pertaining to juvenile off enders, really ther e should be one prepared dealing with adult offenders as well. So maybe by arriving at the two charts and comparing them with the different police departments and enforcement agencies th roughout Manitoba, we could get some idea as to what we are up against. MR. BOYCE: Well, Mr. Chairman, I'll try again.

I don't know, maybe with the Meer for Wolseley, I have to walk on my hands before he can hear me but I'll read the letter into the record. This letter is letterheaded Stats Canada. It is dated March 10 , 19 77. It is add ressed to Mr. S. M. Hu nter, Juvenile Director, Buil ding 21 , 13 9 Tuxedo Winnipeg, Manitoba, R3COV8. "Dear Mr. Hunter, This is in response to you r letter dated February 28th, 19 77. Please find enclosed data for 19 75, by cities and the total for Manitoba. Statistics for 19 76 are not available at this time. I am sorry that I cannot provide you with more detailed information. Yours truly, Mr.

E. J. Freduck, for R. Cantin, Project Manager, Uniform Crime Ju stice Statistics dated received in my office, March 14 ' 19 77. My staff did not prepare these particular figures. And I repeat, that if the member wants to get Stats Canada figures then I sugge st that he get some from Stats Canada. MR. WILSON: Did Mr. Hu nter request these figures for the juveniles only, or has he got a letter pertaining to the adu lts as well? MR. BOYCE: Mr. Hunter is the Director of Ju veniles and I would imagine that he requested them relative to his responsibilities. MR.

WILSON: So then it was in a response to a request from somebody on your staff? Next, Mr. Chairman, I was wondering why the delays in renovations to the Public Safety Building? I understand the sixth floor now is being used as a Mu seum for old police artillery and weaponry of the past. I wondered if that floor is empty, why if you are overcrowded like you claim you are, that it wouldn't be a priority of yourself to put a little empha sis in caucus or Cabinet to have them renovate that sixth floor instead of bu ilding garages and other questionable priority items in the downtown 1318

Monday,March 28, 1977 area. What is the delay in the renovations? Is that where the renovations are taking place? Is there any thou ght to taking over the sixth floor? MR. BOYCE: We have no plans to take over the sixth floor of the Public Safety Bu ilding. There is no delay in carrying out the renovations. The province is not in the practice of renovating buildings wh ich they have either under lease or which they own outright. As soon as the agreements with the City of Winnipeg are finalized then the renovations will commence. MR. WILSON: Where will these renovations take place? MR.

BOYCE: In that place which has traditionally been known as the Winnipeg Public Safety Building Lock-up which is comprised of the th ird and fourth floors. MR. WILSON: Will the Minister now entertain to have his staff look at the sixth floor as to the feasibility of expanding those facilities if it really only being used as a museum now? MR. BOYCE: No, Mr. Chairman. MR. WILSON: Mr.

Chairman, I wonder if the overcrowding as reported by the Minister's staff, if it's just coincidence that judges are now expressing a concern of a 19 63, '64, '65 report saying that native prisoners and suspects are different than other people when it comes to alcoholic related crimes and that something is going to be done to treat them differently. Or is this just a concern expressed - maybe the timing was just coincidental. MR. BOYCE: I'm sorry, Mr. Chai rman, I don't understand the member's question. ls he asking me to comment on the comments of the ju dges or his particular comment?

I don't understand his question . MR. WILSON: What I'm concerned about is, we seem to be extremely overcrowded in our institutions with no possible end in sight. So all of a sudden the judge s are coming up with these suggestions that we treat a certain segment of our population different because of a mid-sixty report. I'm wondering why it's taken 7, 8, 9 years for them to all of a sudden re-open this study. MR. BOYCE: Well, Mr. Chairman, I still don't know where the member's going .

I know various people make comments from time to time including some of the members of the judici ary, but nevertheless what I'm responsible for is the administration of the staff under my jurisd iction and I really don't see the relevancy of some comment of the judici ary about the point the member is raising. MR. WILSON: All right then, my concern is that we're dealing with adult offenders. The prisons are overcrowded, and today on one of the radio programs they were talking about the effect on sentencing, the effect on paroles what-h ave-you.

So I'll leave it at that, but basically, I'm worrying about the number of things that are coming to light all of a sudden and it's just very coincidentally happens to be the fact that our prisons are overcrowded and all of a sudden we're going to have a change in the Legal Aid Program, that people are going to have lesser qualif ied lawyers, which means obviously more people to be sentenced and then reports coming forward. So I'll leave it at that and speak about it on the Minister's Salary after I've heard all the different views. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 64(e)(1 )-pass. Resolution 64(e)

(2) Other Expenditu res-pass. Resolution 64(e)

(3) Commun ity Agencies. The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. WILSON: Very briefly could you explain why there is such a drop here? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. BOYCE: As I explained just a few moments ago, on that line was included a half a million dollars that we agreed to gi ve the City of Winnipeg for the operation of the Public Safety Building relative to '76-'77 fiscal year. That no longer appears in that item. What does appear is $30,000 to the Native Halfway House, $24,000 to the United Church Ha lfway House and $8.8 thousand to Grosvenor Place. MR.

WILSON: Is that Un ited Church Halfway House in my riding? MR. BOYCE: I'll have the add ress for the member tomorrow. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 64(e)(3)-pass; (

e) pass .. The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. USKIW: I move the Committee rise. MR. CHAIRMAN: Committee rise. 1319

THE LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY of MANITOBA Monday, March 28, 1977 ESTIM ATES - HE AL TH AND SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT MR. CHAIRMAN: Before we proceed this evening, I'd like to draw the attention of the honourable meers to the gallery where we have 12 members of the 53rd Charleswood Scout Troop under the direction of Mr. Dan Wiwchar and Mr. L. Goldsborough. This group is from the constituency of the Honourable Member from Charleswood. I bid you welcome on behalf of all members this evening. MR. CHAIRMAN: When we rose at 4:30, we were on Resolution 58(a) (I). The Honou rable Member for Roblin. MR. McK ENZIE: Mr.

Chairman and members of the Comm ittee, as we move into the lottery concept, I again become very concerned about the management of lotteries of th is government and this Minister which is certainly suspect. And I reca ll back to the days of the late Maitland Steinkopf and the Centennial which brought lotteries into this province. And the concept was in those days, of the need of funds to promote our Centennial and other matters.

And so it was agreed by this House, and most people of this province, that maybe this was a source whereby certain fu nds could be raised to do certain thi ngs on behalf of the people of the province. And that's history, and now we're into lotteries like it's going out of style. The part that concerns me, Mr. Chairman, is the fact that this government hasn't proved yet they can run anyth ing, let alone a lottery.

And their record is on the book, it's wel I spelled out, they can't run Crown Corporations, they can't run land, they've turned their policy around on land, now they're 18 0 degree sh ift, so they recognize they can't handle the farmland issue, and the list goes on and on. I have in my hand a directive dated March 25, 1977 from the Rehab Fitness Centre planned at Concordia, and this Minister and this government is now trying to take credit for lottery funds for another program. And the day, Mr.

Chairman, and members of the Committee, when the government wants to get into the lottery business at this level and take credit for the people, they allocate the funds, not the opposition, not the people, this Minister, this Minister makes the decision of where the lottery funds shall go. So, our whole trust is in this Minister. I know the critical history of this Minister, Mr. Chairman. I can recall the Autopac debates where he changed coats about th ree times, and switched over from point A to point B. He used to sit over there, he was a hard-nose Liberal. And I wo uld sugge st to yo u, Mr .

Chairman, read some of his speeches of those days about how this province should be run. Then all of a sudden, he kind of changed around. He took off one coat, he put on another, and he put on another coat and he put on another, then the Premier put another coat on him. I don't know where he stands on credibility, not only as a politician but as a Minister, somebody that's honest and a credit and worthy to the people of this province.

And I don't see in my wildest imagination how the people of this province can trust a man like that, who has worn several political coats in his lifetime, with lottery funds where it's suspect. He stands up here today and comes with a Rehab Fitness Centre planned at Concordia and saying the government will allot up to $250,000.00. Mr. Chairman, when we get into that state in lottery business where the government is taking credit for the lottery profits and the lottery dollars of this province, I say it's time to stop and pack it up and get out. Get out!

I am sure the Mines Minister will ag ree with me, and there are many other members in that caucus who'll agree because these are not government funds and that kind of a directive should never have been sent out and it's ill time, sure it's an election year, and they can plow these goodies across to the people of this province and say, "Sure, it's government dollars' it's government policy." Mr. Chairman, I wo uld much sooner go with the Saskatchewan plan. I would much sooner go with this, where it's so far away from government and it's run by the sports people. And all they do there is audit the funds.

But in this province, the lotteries now have got to a state where I think we have to reassess our position from the days Maitland Steinkopf sug gested that maybe lottery was a possibility, and take a look at the hard, bare facts, because when the day in lotteries that it says, "the government," it doesn't say the people, it doesn't say these agencies are selling these lottery tickets, or all the people that are buying, it says, "No.

The government, the government of this province is now going to take credit for the lottery funds, and the government will allot up to $250,000.00 ." How do they make the judgm ent "up to"? Why didn't they say "more than $250,000?" Why could it not have been a million? The government made the decision. So, I'll read it. "The government will allot up to $250,000 from lottery revenues on a formula of $1 .00 for every $ 3.0 0 raised from outside sources. Now, isn't that a farce?

Especially with this Minister who has been running around this province, riding all kinds of political horses, making all kinds of political judgme nts. Created the Autopac, what we've got on our shou lders today, he's all part of that same plan, this Schreyer plan, and there is a lot of other it's and but's about that wh ich we will deal with another day. So I say, before I sit down, Mr. Chairman, I th ink it's time that the people in this province took another look, especially at the Minister that is running lotteries, I said the second th ing, let's get it out of the hands of government.

This was never intended to be government funds. Let the sports people run it, let the province aud it it, but not this Minister, not this government, especially when they're 1320

Monday,March 28, 1977 falling at this time, Mr. Chairman, and using lottery funds as some kind of a gimmi ck likely to get votes as they fall on their faces and say, "We're sorry, boys, we ju st can't manage the affairs of this province." So, before we get to that stage, Mr. Chairman, I say, we should remove this in this Committee if we can from that Minister. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. GORDON E. JOHNSTON (Portage la Prairie): Mr. Chai rman, it really wasn't my intention to join in the lottery discussion but I was egged on by my friendly amiable seatmate.

It seems to me that when the vote was held on the lotteries there was a division of opinion that . crossed party lines. And they people who voted, and to my embarrassment, I can't remember how I voted at that time, but I do ... -(I nterjection)- Yes, yes I believe the Minister of Labour iscorrectthat I voted against it because the feeling I have now is going to express that, and perhaps offend some people because I consider gambling and lotteries, and in thi s case we're talking about lotteries, as a tax on fools.

But it's up to them, it's freedom of choice and I must plead guilty that I've bought many lottery tickets but I still consider it a tax on fools. It's a free choice, a majority of this House voted for it. From time to time there has been criticism of the Minister on the way it was operated but I must give the Minister credit that when he saw an abuse he tried to correct it and I th ink he did a reasonable job of correcting what cou ld have been a possible laund ries whe never possible, for one purpose only is to save funds. That doesn't mean that you shou ld necessarily have only the one laundry in all Manitoba.

The Commission has decided it is going in that direction. It has a laundry in the Da uphin areaand the Brandon area that takes care of some of these smaller institutions. There has been a laundry started in Selkirk; it's too early to tell what the result will be, it's not finished, the building is finished but the rest is not finished . As far as St. Boniface, there was a committee in that area of the city, there was a laundry committee set up to look at St. Boniface, the Tache Geriatric Hospital, the St. AmantWard, and I think at that time Misericordia was looking at it.

These people were looking at the situation and discussing this with the Commission. There has been no comm itment made. I th ink the direction seemed to be that there would be some kind of a centralized laundry in that area and that is still being discussed at this time because of the facilities in Selkirk, apparently it can handle more than they thought that it would. I would like to switch to the Lotteries. My honourable friend that spoke is in the habit of doing that once in a while, he gets a piece of paper and looks around like a pitcher watch ing second base, third base, and so on.

He's got nothing to say but he's going to make something out of it. I suspect that he was killing time, not knowing what the hell he was talking about, Mr. Chairman, but killing time for the fellow behind him who is actually the critic on Lotteries. My honourable friend forgets a few thi ngs. It is true that the fi rst time this was brought in the House, that it was for one year, one shot only. -(I nterjection)- Under Mr. Steinkopf and it was left with the Association. Then the following year there was a bill passed, and I had one voice, one vote, not 57.

It was passed very clearly establishing a fund, revenue to the government that was earmarked tor sports, commun ity recreation, the arts, and cu lture. Now , I did n't make those rules, Mr. Chairman, the members of this House did, very clearly. And today I'm chastised because I dare tell the people where we're going to spend the money of the Lottery. You know, the speech over a sheet of paper announcing where some of the money will go.

I didn't hear anything before when there was an announcement that there was a capital project in commun ity recreation, in that very year, and that was started when I was responsible, when I was Minister of Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs and also when the list came in, it was a very good program. Nobody is trying to take credit where credit isn't there. Of cou rse, when you say the Lottery Fund, you don't need to draw pictures, the Lottery Fund means the revenue from the Lottery accruing to the province. And by law, they have to spend it.

The province cannot put it in the Consolidated Fund to use it tor hospitals, use it tor th is and all kinds of other th ings, it is very clear in the Actthatthe people voted tor. When that bill passed, when it was my turn to get up, I supported the Lottery.

I said last year, I said this year, that since I have had to administer this, and believe me it gives me practically as much trouble as the rest of the department and I have over one-third of the total budget, it hasn't been good and when I saw the greed and the way the people have worked on this in promoting their own, then I said last year, and I say th is again this year especially, now, when there are so many lotteries, when you have lotteries al I over the place, there is competition, it doesn't make sense any more. I have said that repeatedly.

I said it before 5:30 and I'll repeat it now, that I don't like lotteries the way the things are going now, when you have the Federal Government who are subsidizing the lottery and I think they will lose money if they didn't already on the first draw, the first Loto Canada where the taxpayers are subsidizing a lottery, I th ink it's time to stop. I agree, and especially when you go out in competition with other lotteries in your own country where there is an obvious battle now between 1321

Monday,March 28, 1977 the provincial lottery and the Canadian Loto Lottery, where you have five, ten, twelve prizes of $1 million, it doesn't make sense. So my honourable friend is not going to fight with me on that because I stated that earlier, I don't like it that much. But I have a mandate to try to do the best I can with a very difficult situation. Last year there was no backing from a single member of this House when I was trying to clean it up, and the press either. I wasn't getting anywhere because there was too much of a lobby being made by people that had something personally to gain on that.

So there was a lot of lobbying with my friends and so on. So what have we done that's so bad that my honourable friend gets up, is all excited , all exercised about this? What have we done? First of all, the lotteries run by the association, were originally, even under Mr. Steinkopf, where that money, some of it was going to the province, there is not one centthat goes to the province.

That lottery is run by, it is licensed by the Lottery Licensing Board, it is run by the association and I think they call it Total Commun ity Involvement Incorporated, and they keep everything providing that they are careful and they follow the policy of the government. The Sports Federation were also given two lotteries that they run also. There is not one cent that goes to the province. That leaves us now with the products of the Western Canada Lottery Foundation.

A few years ago when it was obvious that there would be all kinds of competition, the four Western provinces got together and decided to see if they could help each other and this is exactly what they did and it is the best thing that ever happened, maybe the next best th ing, maybe they shou ld have stopped the whole lottery then, that's a possibility. But now, you have decent return to the people who are buying the tickets, which you didn't have before, you have full accountab ility whic h you didn't have before, at times you had up to 70 percent unaccounta bility.

Besides the revenue to the government, you also have a partnership of th ree, the United Way, the Manitoba Arts Council, and the Advisory Council on Fitness and Amateur Sports that are partners and they have the profit accrued to them as distributors and who lesalers of these products.

I stated and I'll read it carefu lly for my honourable friend, because he can take th is and make another speech after, I'll read the statement that I made before 5:30, but now I'll read it to make it clear where the government is going in the lottery or where I wou ld like the government to go: "As I have explained on several occasions, Mr. Chai rman, it is my preference gradually to remove government from the direct operation of lotteries and to restrict its involvement through the Manitoba Lotteries Commission to regulatory functions.

Over a year ago, announcements were made describing an alternate organizational structure that was designed not only to move toward this end but also to provide for improved monitoring and accounting as well as better returns for ticket purchasers. "I believe that the structural changes have gone a long way in accomplishing these goals. I am pleased to announce yet another step aimed at reaching this overall objective.

Western Lottery Manitoba Distributors Incorporated is the exclusive wholesaler of Western Canada Lottery products in Man itoba which constituent members include the Man itoba Arts Council, the United Way of Winnipeg, and the Fitness and Amateur Sports Advisory Counc il. The government has proposed to this corporation, subject to certain conditions, it receive an additional dollar in revenue from the $5.00 Provincial Lottery ticket retroactive to Janu ary 1 st, 19 77. Under this arrangement, the province would accept only a few cents in revenue to cover hand ling charges.

"The conditions under which this proposal has been made, include: 1) The establishment by the Corporation of a reserve fund of ha lf-a-million dollars to offset any futu re liabilities; the assumption by the Corporation of all necessary supplementary advertising and marketing expenses; the continuation of cu rrent revenue share with respect to the $1 .00 Western Express ticket; the provision of detailed quarterly financial statements by the Corporation to the Manitoba Lotteries Commission; reconfirmation by the Corporation that it will abide by the policies of the Manitoba Lotteries Commission and an agreement that all agents and sub-agents will be subject to the approval of the Manitoba Lotteries Commission and regulated as to maximum earnings; agreement by the constituent members of the Corporation that each will apply its share of net revenue against past and cu rrent deficits of organizations they separately fund before each considers providing financial support to new programs.

"We feel that this proposal will assist in removing government from the direct operation of lotteries wh ile providing greater flexibility, independence and improved revenue to those organizations representing the activities for which lotteries profit have been reserved." If that's not clear, Mr. Chai rman, I can't make it any clearer. Now, what did we find. We found, as I say, we fought the members of this House, we fought the members of the press last year and many others who were doing a lot of lobbying, a lot of lobbying because they had an awful lot to lose. And I'm not going to start again.

I think I made it quite clear, my concern for the middle man, last year. But I can tell you that I have a contract in front of me, I have a contract, I don't want to table it so I won't pull it out, I'll tell you what's in the contract because I'm not 1322

Monday ,March 28, 1977 looking for any witc hhunt but if you wonder why I was worried. Now, there is an association that made over $282,000 and, Mr. Chairman, we have heard so much about these organizations, you know what they kept out of that, what their revenue was after it was all over? Nine thousand dollars, Mr. Chairman. Now, is it any wonder that I'm concerned, that I'm trying to put a ceiling, especially when these thing s are licensed by government? Should you have midd le men who will have non-profit organizations fight the ir battles, they won't come in the open.

I don't want to start the battle all over again because this is improving. -(l nterjection)- MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Meer for Birtle-Russell. MR. GRAHAM: You had some concern about the accountability. At that time did you refer the matter to the Provincial Auditor? MR. DESJARDINS: That is not my responsibility. I advised the Attorney-General. This is not one that comes under the Manitoba Lottery Commission, it is licensed by the Manitoba Lottery Licensing Board, the Lottery Licensing Board knows about it and they are going to ask more information before there is any more licensing to be done.

Now, I said last year that I did not want to start to set up districts where therewou ld be patronage, it would become a political pork barrel. -(I nterject ion)- And it is not political, Mr. Chairman, and I defy anybody to say that it is political, I defy and I chal lenge anybody including the honourable friend that's got up, to say that there is anything political in the administration of this lottery. - (lnterjection)- MR. CHAIRMAN: Or der please. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Cha irman, in certain other provinces, and they had a su rvey in Quebec, as I said before the dinner hour , there was up to $900,000 that a middle man made, and out of that it would be estimated that at least a half of that was profit. And the provincial police in that area, I am told , found that for every district there was, there was a kick-back or call it what you want, I call it a kick-back or a donation to the former Liberal government in the Province of Quebec. So now, what have we done here, what have we done?

We have the Express that we share in, we have tried to put this on a sound basis and it is on a sound basis, and we have said to the partnership of these th ree groups, if that's political to say that part of it will go to the United Way, part of it will go to the Manitoba Arts Council, and part of it will go to sports through the Advisory Committee on Sports, if that's political, well then I' m political. Mr.

Chairman, these people were told, and I mentioned tha t earlier, there will be a survey, and now I'm talking about the part that I'm responsible for when it comes to the disbursing and it is the one partner of that, it's the Advisory Committee on Fitness and Amateur Sports, and I invite the members to look at the members of that Advisory Committee to see that you will see well-known and in fact former candidates of different parties and I th ink that if you were to try to find the members, the known people that supported this party, you would have a very difficult time.

Because I have always tried and I have always insisted that this should be kept above partisan politics. Now, as stated earlier, these people will sit down and get the gu idelines of what they want to do with this fund, it will be going th rough probably the sports groups. This Advisory Committee is looking, as I said earlier last week, at the programs, the actual programs that we have now and also the money from the lottery.

Now, the share that's coming to the province, and I will not defend the whole th ing because part of it, th ree-quarters of it, 75 percent, is spent in the Department of Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs, therefore I have 25 percent. Twenty-five percent of that, like everything else, is earmarked for sports, that 25 percent is sports and fitness. And before I can spend a cent, you know, my friend who is fond of talking of a dictatorship and people you can't trust and so on, before a cent of that is spent, it has to be approved by the Cabinet.

Not only that, but there has to be an Order -in-Council. - (In terjection)- Mr. Chai rman, I have never seen anybody so ridiculous as my honourable friend is tonight. Now he is condemning government, he is condemning democracy, duly -elected people do not have the right to make decisions, that's exactly what he is saying and you can laugh all you want. Du ly-elected members do not make decisions, they don't make decision, they haven't got the right to make decisions. What else?

What better safeguard than if everything has to be approved by Cabinet, and it has to be done by Order -in-Council which is public knowledge? A MEMBER: It's political. MR. CHAIRMAN: Or der please. MR. DESJARDINS: Yes, it's political. Anything that is done in here when you look afterthe affairs of the people of Manitoba is political, but it is not partisan, my friend. It is not partisan and that is the important th ing. You know, if people don't know what the hell they are talking about, they laugh and they turn around.

I'd like to tell my honourable friend, I challenge him again, I defy him to try to get something that will prove there is any wrong-doing in there, anyth ing at all. He can scratch all he wants, because I th ink that we have done a darn good job under very difficult and trying conditions. -(I nterjection)- Well, of course it's my opinion , I can't talk for you , you can cry later on. Mr. Chairman, there is another thing, I have gone over and above the call of duty to give you and 1323

Monday,March 28, 1977 the members ofthis committee the information. You know, I could go ahead, and by the way, I want to tell my honourable friend that if we compare the statement that I gave, it's not necessarily the same as this, this is another approach to look at the progress that has been made, I didn't have to give that to my honourable friend at all. This is the only thing that by law I must table, the only thing.

And I've given him all kinds of information, I worked all weekend to try to give him the information, to see where it was going, but some of them, not all of them , a few of them who don't know what it's all about would like to introduce politics in there. I th ink they would try to introduce politics no matterwhatthe subject, even if you were talking about motherhood. Mr.

Chairman, tor those that are interested, I would like to look att he sheets that I have passed on and on the fi rst sheet is an idea of what the gross value of tickets were, the percentage and the expenses and other forms of revenue for the years '71 - 72, '72 - 73, and '73 - 74 when there was only the Golden Sweepstakes; in '74 - 75, July of that year, the Western Canada Lottery Foundation took over but not with bearer tickets, and it was in '75 - 76, in October, that the bearer tickets came in and there was no doubt that last year was a very bad year and again, I'm not going to pad the account, I'm not asking you to look at the total excess of revenue expenditu res which I could have been satisfied in pro11iding to you, but I'm showing in the middle of the page the net revenue from ticket sales which is $1 ,080,000 compared to the year before, $1 .5 million.

If you go on, the estimates tor this year will be, even though you have the Corporation "B" or Total Commun ity Involvement that keeps every cent of it wh ich they didn't have in the fi rst year, and you have the Manitoba Sports Federation with the Sports Toto that keep every cent of it, there would still be $2 mil lion, close to $3 million of net revenue from ticket sales. Now, this will be modified, as I said, because part of that, the Provincial Fund, most of the profit, all of the profit will go to Corporation "A", so that will have to be changed .

On the second page, I've tried to give you an idea of what happened since the start of it. The excess of revenue in the fi rst year, '71 - 72 was $962,000; funds transferred to Trust and Special Division Consolidated Fund, $900,000; that left a balance at the end of the year of $62,000.00. Then you can start all over and keep on going.

There is someth ing that I must explain because Friday we had a good talk about sports but one member, again, only one, decided that he would play politics and in an interview certainly misrepresented th ings and - at least, I want this thing to be understood and I'm referring to The Tribune of March 26th, "Government Holding $300,000 Steen Says" and again it was a question that we were keeping that and just before the election all this money would be spent and so on. - (Int erjection) - Political, my friend says, because that's the way he th inks and that's the only thing he knows what to do, and he knows nothing else and he judge s everybody by himself.

Let me tell you that first of all, on this thing, as I said in the sheets that I gave you yesterday, that it is true, that there were $300,16 2.81 that was not comm itted, but out of that, $10 7,504.84 is the money that they will decide, it's the Advisory Counci I on Sports and Fitness that will decide where that will go and I told you they were looking at that.

That left a balance of $1 92,000 and that paper that my honourable friend read about $1 50,000 or it was $250,000, $1 00,000was committed somewhere else, the other $1 50,000 was comm itted from the Lottery forth is ReFit, if th is cou ld be worked out- and by the way, I took a lot of trouble to say that most of the credit for that thing belonged to the Kinsmen, but my honou rable friend wasn't in the House yesterday, or Friday.

Now, therefore, that will leave $42,000.00. Now, I'm going to go through the same thing because my same friend, or this one in front here will grab this paper and say, "Balance at year-end, $2,384,000 and what are they going to do with that?" First of all, this is an estimate. When this thing was prepared, we were trying to project for the year. There was $661 ,000 that wasn't there, so that breaks it down to $1 ,723,000.00.

Out of thatth ere will be a certain amount of money, $1 40,000 of this money, that's part of the $661 ,000 that will go to Corporation "A" and another $70,000 out of that because the month of January wasn't involved in that we already had the money, so that cuts it down to $1 ,653,000.00.

Then there is administration, there has to be a reserve fund because some of the lotteries, like he says my friend in Saskatchewan ... it is not in the hands of the government, the government is not as interested as it was, and the Sports Federation is doing one thing, it is make money at all costs and they tried to impose on the Western Canada Lottery Foundation a guaranteed minimum income, that is, thatthe province would have to buy tickets if they like it or not, and eat them if they did n't sell it and that is not the kind of operation we want in Manitoba.

So we had to reserve-( lnterjection)- well, let me finish th is, if you don't mind, I'm nearly finished it. -(l nterjection)- MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. MR. DESJARDIN S: Well, that's not my fault if you're confused, ask your friend in front. So that left about a million-and-a-half which , in a couple of days it will be the end of the year, and that will be tu rned over. In the meantime, this is in a special fund provided for sports and the arts, eight-and-a half percent. I had better be carefu l, if the Minister of Finance heard me say that, I might not be able to 1324

Monday,March 28, 1977 do that very long. Mr. Chairman, then 25 percent of that, whic h is what would go for sports, is $375,000 and that is the maximum. I am saying, I said and I will repeat again, that the Sports Advisory Council is looking at the ways - you're not going to go because you've got money, you're not in this money keeps coming regu larly. We had a very bad year last year, we had to keep the reserve, now it's going, now it's on its feet and I think that we can foretell pretty soon a kind of a steady, although there is always going to be that competition because it's going wild.

We're trying not to have it go wild here in Manitoba and the only participation of the province then will be on the Express because we won't get the money from the Provincial, it will go to that Corporation. So, Mr. Chairman, this gives you an idea and there will be policies made and sugge sted by the Advisory Committee, some of it dealing with the funds that accrue, the revenue to the province, then this recommendation will be discussed in Cabinet and we'll see what happens ttien. There has been some money, what do we do with thi s money? What do we do that is so bad? The share of the province of Manitoba.

Well, most of it, we do things that normally we would n't be able to do if we just took the tax money, and we're spending more by population in th is area than the other provinces and I'm talking mostly about Man itoba Games and coach training and that kind of thing, and this is where the money - I reported on that when I reported on fitness and amateur sport, so I explained then what the Games were all about, what we did last_year and what we intend to do in '78. So, Mr.

Chairman, I hope that this will, I know that I won't satisfy everybody, some of them, not too many but a few, have got it in their mind thattheycan make a lot of politics on that, they can make a lot of gain and they are trying to bring it into politics wh ich I've tried for two years to get it out of the partisan field, and I defy anybody to say that there's anything - I'm not saying it's perfect, but I say we have come a long way and certainly without the assistance of some of the people, the same people who do most of the yel ling from the other side. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR.

DAVID BLAKE: A question, Mr. Chairman, for clarification. I wonder if the Minister would back up to where he started the balance at the end of the year, $2,384,000.00. Then he said that was on ly an estimate so we end up with , what did he say, $1 ,723,000.00? MR. DESJARDINS: I said, Mr. Chairman, I said that part of it was estimated because th is is notthe financial statement, you'll get that at the end of the year. Th is is to try to give the members of this House something that I certainly didn't have to volunteer, an idea of what has happened in the lottery since we started.

We got this as close as we cou ld, this was done at the end of Janu ary so we had to estimate for the last two months. And tha t's not aud ited. -(I nterjection)- The money will be there, in fact, most of the money is there now but when this was prepared, the money wasn't there. That was money to come and we were judg ing, because we have been fairly regular in selling the Express, I think it's about four-and-a-half, five series. A MEMBER: Is this close, that's what I want to know? MR.

DESJARDINS: Yes, very very close, it's practically dead on but at the time that this was prepared , two months were projected, estimated . It wasn't an after-the-fact budget. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honou rable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, I have listened with keen interest to the Minister for some time and he still hasn't proved to me that lotteries are non-political in Manitoba and I hope that the Minister doesn't th ink that we in the opposition are trying to prove any wrongdoing . That's not the intent of my entry into th is matter.

I am just trying to tell the Minister that there are citizens from every political stripe in th is province buying lottery tickets and some of them don't like the funds being allocated to one Minister and and one Cabinet. Wi ll the Minister agree now that Cabinet makes the decision, that these lottery funds are political because when you sit around the Cabinet table .... If the Minister, in his wildest imagination can prove to me all these people that are being allocated these funds, that that's not a political decision, then I would like to know what the function of Cabinet is all about. It's a political mac

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-4-28b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 4th hansardpdf 28b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	05119463a25297e14d61603c12cbd1b90e8f367a

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