Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 62 (31st Legislature, 4th Session)

31-4-62

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, 21 May, 19 80 Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. Harry E. Graham (Birtle Russell): Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Presenting Reports By Standing and Special Commi ttees . . . Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports ... Notices of Motion . . . Introduction of Bills . . . INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR.

SPEAKER: Before we proceed with th e questions, I should like to draw the honourable members' attention to the gallery where we have 45 students of Grade 9 standing from McKenzie Junior High School under the direction of Mr. McCallum and Mr. Zimmer. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Dauphin. We have 25 students of Grade 7 standing from Holy Cross School under the direction of Mrs. Carol Hrynuk. This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for St. Boniface. We have 33 students from the Isaac Brock School under the direction of Mr. Ian Heather.

This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for St. Matthews. And we have 32 students of Grade 7 standing from Gl enboro Collegia te, under th e direction of Mrs. Greenly. This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. On behalf of all the honourable members we welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. HOWARD PAWLEY (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister.

Could the First Minister indicate precisely what the government's position is vis-a-vis formation of a legislati ve committee in order to deal with the devlopment of a Manitoba position to be presented pertaining to constitutional changes to be introduced. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. STERLING R. L VON (Charleswood): Mr.

Speaker, may I take the opportunity, in response to the Leader of the Opposition's question, to reiterate what I believe he said and what I said last evening on the media, namely that I'm sure all Manitobans, indeed all Canadians, are pleased with the outcome of the referendum vote in Quebec last evening. It does represent a watershed in Cana dian constitutional development, and pursuant to that, as has been indicated previously in the House, Mr. Speaker, I expect that the Prime Minister will be a convening a meeting of the Premiers of the ten provinces, before too long, to resume th e constitutional discussions.

Indeed, there may well be a determination to call the responsible Ministers, the Attorneys-General or the Mini sters of Inter Governmental Affairs to preliminary meetings, even in advance of a First Ministers Meeting, and this government - and I am sure the members of the opposition would agree - will actively and with good will partici pate cooperatively in those ongoing constitutional discussions, which we now expect will take place.

With respect to the point that he raised of a Legislative Comm ittee, I think I have made it clear on many many occasions in the House that it is the intention of the government to appoint such a Committee of the Legislature of Manitoba to review constitutional proposals, as they are developed, with respect to areas or heads of agreement that can be arrived at among the various governments. I would even go so far, Mr.

Speaker, to say that, depending on the information that we receive in the next week or two or beyond that, certainly before the House prorogue s, tha t if we see in th e futur e tha t constitutional meetings will be beginning this year, as I expect they will, and on more actively into the fall, then it might well be prudent for the House, toward the end of the Session, to make provision for an appropriate Committee of the House, about which we could have discussions with the Leader of the Opposition, to be charged with the responsibility of meeting at an appropriate time after the first of the constitutional discussions has got under way and we have begun to develop those heads of agreement upon which the Prime Minister and the ten Premiers and their supporting Ministers, I am sure, will be working to achieve.

MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to join, on behalf of the opposition, in expressing as well our relief at the outcome of the vote yesterday, but in so sta ting to express as well anticipation of th e discussions which now take place, and ask the First Minister if he can assure us that insofar as the work of the Legislative Committee, that it would not be preempted by prior government decisions that will have been arrived at pertaining to constitutional changes, or that the limits of the Comm ittee's work will not be limi ted by prior decisions, recommendations having been arrived at by the Premiers and by the First Minister in the Conference to be held possibly sometime this summer.

MR. L VON: Mr. Speaker, I can give my honourable friend this assurance, as I have done on numerous occasions in the House, that it would be and is the intention of the government to form such a committee at an appropriate time. I have been through this exercise before, Mr. Speaker, I don't know if my honourable friend has or not, and to constitute a committee to deal with the whole total broad spectrum of the Constitution before you have begun to narr ow down the possi ble heads of agreement would be premature, it would not be 3867

Wednesday, 21 May, 198 0 produ ctive, and so I give my honourable friend the undertaking that that committee will be convened when it is appropriate to convene it and that in the meantime, he, along with all other members of the Hous e on this side and throughout th e whole Chamber, will be kept fully apprised of any of the developments that are taking place. My honourable friend should not lose sight of the fact, however, that government's responsibility is to govern. Legislative comm ittees do not govern, governments govern. MR.

PAWLEY: I would trust that the First Minister might have concurred that the development of proposals by Manitoba for constitutional change must take place in as non-partisan fashion as possible, and must involve the democratic process of all Ma nitobans par ticipa ting in that process, to determine, not for only our generation but for generations to come, Manitoba's role within a new Canadian constitution.

I ask the First Minister whether or not it is his government's decision that there should be any opposition repres entation at a futur e federal provincial conference dea ling with constitut ional changes, that reference was made by the Prime Minister to last evening, in the capacity as observer? MR. LYON: Mr . Speaker, it has not been uncommon in the past for the federal government and for provi ncial governments to include, as observers in their delega tions, members or principally, usually, the Leader of the Opposition at such conferences.

The determination as to whether or not that invitation will be extended is not mine to make. That would be made as one of th e agreements tha t th e First Minister and the 10 premiers would arrive at thems elves. But I can assure my honourable friend that it has been a practice that has been followed from time to time, not always in the past, and it's one to which this government would have no particular objection. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for The applica tion, in other words, and it will be spot applied to four sections of highway: No. 6 highway from Grand Rapids north to the Ponton junction; it will be spot sprayed on portions of the PR 327 from PTH 6 over to the Easterville community; it will be used on two other sections of PR 391 from Ponton junction to Wekusko and spot sprayed once again in the area on 39 1 from Wabowden to the vicinity of Pipe Lake. MR. McBRYDE: Mr . Speaker, that use is very extensive.

I wonder if the Minister could answer the question I asked him yesterday and he failed to answer before I ran out of questions, and that is in regard to giving notice to people in the area in terms of where and when this chemical will be used. Mr. Speaker, I'm thinking particularly of local people who go berry picking and tourists who stop along the main hig hways up north and do a lot of berry picking. The road that the Minister mentioned, the Easterville road, I have been berry picking along that road myself, Mr. Speaker, and I was not aware of the use of this dangerous chemical.

I wonder if the Minister could give us some reassurance, reassure the people of Manitoba that notices will be posted right along the highway that this chemical has been used so people will be able to avoid berry picking in those particular areas? MR. ORCHARD: Mr. Speaker, I think that's a suggestion that can be undertaken to mark, for instance, a ten-mile stretch that may have been spot sprayed.

I appreciate the member's concern about the potential for berry pickers wanting to know where shrubs have been sprayed, but I might point out to the member that the reason why we spray shrub is to kill it, and if it's dead I suggest it won't be producing some of the berries that the people would be after and that concern, I think, is self eliminating but the suggestion of putting a sign up indicating that this stretch has been spot-treated this year is one that I'll take and see if we can proceed with. Pas. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for The Pas with a final supplementary. MR. RONALD McBRYDE: Yes, Mr.

Speaker. I'd like to follow up with some questions I asked yesterday to the Minister of Highways in regard to the use of 2,4,5 -T in northern Manitoba. I wonder if the Minister could advise the House whether or not 2,4, 5-T, the use of it, has started yet in northern highway right of-ways and, if not, when the Minister anticipates the use of this chemical will take place, and secondly, I wonder if the Minister could tell us exactly what areas it would be used in, exactly what highways will be sprayed with this chemical. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Mini ster of Highways. HON. DON ORCHARD (Pembina): Mr.

Speaker, I can't answer whether use has started; I only assume that it hasn't. And I can tell the member that there are four stretches of highway in dis trict 10 that are going to be sprayed with the 50-50 mix of 2,4-D and 2,4,5-T. The spray will be spot sprayed. It will be targeted to tall shrub vegetation. It isn't a general MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Speaker, I think I'll address this question to the · Minster responsible for the Environment as the previous Minister is mostly concerned with the highways.

I wonder if the Minister of the Environment could tell us what information and what advice he is relying upon and why is he not interve ning with his colleague in terms of th e extensive use planned for 2,4,5 -T in northern Manitoba. MFI. SPEAKER: The Hon ou rable Minister of Consumer and Corpor ate Affairs. HON. WARNER H. JORGENSON: Mr. Speaker, my information comes from a variety of sources, scientific people who have extensive knowlege on the use of the chemic al, and I am reviewing th e documents that I have and the advice that I'm getting to determine whether or not there is any potentional hazard.

At this particular time, I don't perceive a potential hazard in the use of 2,4 ,5-T. 3868

Wednesday, 21 May, 1980 MR. SPEAKER: The Hon ou rable Memb er for Rhineland. MR. ARNOLD BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Natural Resources. I wonder if he can report on the fir e which is threatening Snow Lake at the present time. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon ou rable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. BRIAN RANSOM (Souris-Killarney): Mr. Speaker, there are three fires in the vicinity of Snow Lake. The one that I believe is causing the most concern is situated to the south of the town of Snow Lake, some 7 miles, I .believe.

It is being fought, of course, but the conditions are extremely dry and the wind is not particularly favourable as far as being able to control the fire goes. There have been, I'm informed, some 1, 300 people who have already moved from the town of Snow Lake. The situation is one that can change from hour to hour with the wind and weather conditions, but that's essentially an update. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono ur able Mem ber for Rhineland with a supplementary. MR. BROWN: I wonder if the Minister could give us further information on some of the other fires, for instance the one in the Porcupine Mountains. MR.

RANSOM: Yes, Mr. Speaker, the fire in the Porcupine Mountains is a very serious fire in terms of the timber loss and the recreational values that are being affected ther e. As I informed the House yesterday, the fire moved in from Saskatchewan on a front of some 10 mi les wide yesterday. It has progressed significantly into the Porcupine Mountain now from the southwest corner. It has burned approxima tely 60,000 acres.

It is an extremely hot fire, and due to th e weather conditio ns, the firefighters are having considerable difficulty in being able to bring any significant efforts to bear on it to try and control it. Again, the situation is such that the forest is so dry, that I am advised by my staff that people who have been involved in this sort of fire fighting for some period of time have not experienced conditions such as exist there at the moment. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MRS. JUNE WESTBURY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My qu estion is for the Hon ou rable Minister of Agriculture.

Would the Minister please confirm that a Milk Control Board hearing has been called for Thursday, May 21s t at 10:00 a.m.? MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nou rable Minister of Agriculture. HON. JAMES E. DOWNEY (Arthur): Yes, Mr. Speaker. MRS. WESTBURY: I wonder if the Minister would tell us how the public was notified of this proposed hearing, whether it was by newspaper ads or other regular methods; also, were the producers who boycotted the last hearing notified by newspaper ads or other measures? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, I will answer the question to the best of my ab.ility at this particular time.

It was my understanding that the Milk Control Board made that particular statement at the time of the last hearing, that they had to have an opportunity to peruse the statements of the processors that process the milk, and I believe that was the time that that announcement was made that there would be a further hearing. But I will take the question as notice and make her mor e aware of what the total information that went out to the public consisted of, and the times. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge with a final supplementary. MRS. WESTBURY: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if, in taking this as notice, the Minister would also consider the fact that those who did participate were only given six days' notice, which included a long wee k-end, which is hardly time to prepare for another hearing. MR. DOWNEY: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I will take that as part of the question of notice also. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. HENRY J. EINARSON: Mr. Speaker, I direct this question to the Minister of Agriculture.

In view of the very seriousn ess of the drought in western Canada, my question relates to the marketing of livestock in Manitoba, and I presume the same thing exists across western Canada. I am wondering if the Minis ter has had any com munic ation with the Minister of Agriculture or the federal government as to the control on prices. I understand, Mr.

Speaker, there has been a substantial drop in prices in the past week on all grades of cattle, and I'm wondering if the Minister has had any communication with the federal government in this regard to try to work out with the packing companies, to stabilize the price so that there would be not that disadvantage to the farmers because of this severe drought. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour ab le Minister of Agriculture. MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, in relationship to the total que stion of the drought situa tion as it is affecting the farm community, I communicated two weeks ago with the federal Minister, alerting him of what possible developments may have to take place. I would also like to say I believe th at it is a responsibility of the packing house industry not to take advantage of the livestock producers, who find themselves in a situation of somewhat a real extreme time with the amount of livestock that would have to move to market.

That is a consideration that I will have as far as some of the futur e with the development of the whole dr ought and livestock movement, is the fact that we should communicate 3869

Wednesday, 21 May, 198 0 with the packing house industry and will be, not to take advantage of the extreme situation. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Flin Flon. MR. THOMAS BARROW: To the Minister of Natural Resources, Mr. Speaker. Could you explain to the House or tell the House what you are doing to try and control th e fire in Snow Lake, such as helicopters, bomber planes or such, and are you having any success? MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Mi nister of Natural Resources. MR. RANSOM: I am sure, Mr.

Speaker, the Honourable Member for Flin Flon realizes that I am not familiar with the situation on the ground at the site of the fire; that sort of activity is governed solely by my staff in the field. The situation changes from hour to hour, as I said previously. They have the whole range of equipment available to bring to bear on that fire, from the tactical ground crews right through to using the CL-2 15 if necessary. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. JAMES D. WALDING: Mr. Sp eaker, my question is to the Honourable Minister reporting for the Environment.

I would like to ask him whether his department has carried out any tests to determine whether there is any radioactivity present in the volcanic dust now over the city. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono ur able Mi nister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. MR. JORGENSON: It is my understanding, Mr. Speaker, that the volcanic ash contains nothing but inorganic material. MR. WALDING: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Has the Minister carried out any tests to determine that that inorganic ash is not in any manner naturally radioactive? MR. JORGENSON: I can't confirm that such tests have been made, Mr. Speaker.

I will make enquiries to find out. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Vital with a final supplementary. MR. WALDING: Mr. Speaker, it is a new question, and I am not sure whether it should be directed to the Minister of He alth, th e Minister of th e Environment, or the Minister of Agriculture, and that is, given that the government has issued a warning agains t stren uous act ivity, has the go vernment looked into the possibility of possible hazards to race horses at Assiniboia Downs? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L R. (Bud) SHERMAN: No, Mr.

Speaker, and we haven't passed that message on to the race horses yet. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono ur able Memb er for Wellington. MR. BRIAN CORRIN: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Honourable Minister of Consumer Affairs and deals with the same matter as was raised by the Member for Fort Rouge. Mr.

Speaker, in view of the recently published report of the Milk Control Board showing that Manitoba's milk processors' net income after taxes was up 2 percent, 1980 over 19 79, from 13 to 15 percent on sales, and 6 percent since 1977, I would ask if the Minister will be intervening on behalf of consumers at tomorrow's Hearing of the Milk Control Board to assure that the Board does not allow price increases which will simply insure further profits being taken by the milk processing industry? MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. MR.

JORGENSON: I am sure that the producers that I speak to from time to time will be happy to hear that their profits have increased at the margins that my honourable friend indicates that they are. No, it is not the intention of the Department of Consumer and Corpor ate Affairs to intervene. That is why the Milk Control Board is in place in the first place, to act in protection of the consumer. MR. CORRIN: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, in that event I would ask whether th e Minister will consider personally attending tomorrow's hearing in order to ask tha t the board investigate and dete rmine whether last year's approved price increases resulted in unwarranted profit increases in the processing industry? MR. JORGENSON: No, Mr. Speaker, it is not my intention to attend the board hearing. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Memb er for Wellington with a final supplementary. MR. CORRIN: It's a new question, Mr. Speaker, and it' directed to the Attorney-General.

We would ask whether or not he can now give us reports with respect to two matters that he's undertaken to bring before this Assembly, noteably the Ernst case and the report on whether there is a conflict of interest in that respect, and whether a prosecution will ensue, if that is the case, and secondly would he advise us when the all party committee will be convened to sit with respect to the freedom of information proposal that was appr oved last year by this House? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. GERALD W. J. MERCIER (Osborne): Mr.

Speaker, the second question has already been answered and if the Member for Wellington would peruse Ha nsard he will find it there. With respect to the first question, I expect to have a response to the Member for Wellington. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Memb er for Churchill. 3870

Wednesday, 21 May, 1980 MR. JAY COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As the Minister of Natural Resources in questions to other members earlier in the question period indicated that, I believe, approxima tely 1, 300 persons have felt it necessary to move from the community of Snow Lake in regard to the potential danger that may be as a result of the fires there, can the Minister indicate if those evacua tions have been of a voluntary nature and what plans have been put in place in case it is necessary to evacuate what appears to be a minority of the town that is left in the area? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honour able Minis ter of Government Services. HON. HARRY J. ENNS (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, I can report to the House that some 1, 300 people that the Minister of Natural Resources referred to that have evacuated from the community of Snow Lake did so on a voluntary basis at the request of their Mayor and their town council. Most of the residents of Snow Lake have taken up shelter in residences in the towns of Flin Flon and The Pas and we have Emergency Measures people in those communities to be of whatever assistance they can be to them. MR. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Well then I would ask the Minister responsible for Emergency Measures Organization if they have drawn up a formal plan of evacuation that will include of course evacuating the hospitals; and if they have drawn up a formal mechanism to keep that road open, which I assume would be the major hazard if that road were closed, being the only road out of the community; and have they taken measures to insure that road will be open and that those persons that will need the assistance of the government will find that assistance available to them in case an evacuation should become absolutely necessary for their safety in that regard?

MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I am sure the honourable member would agree with me that it would be normal procedure that persons not capable of being mobile themselves, persons in hospitals, that they ought to be, indeed were in this case, the first to be evacuated. The hospital was completely evacuated last night. There is a fire-fighting group within the community to help safeguard property. Some other essential personnel are in the community. The kind of plans that the honourable member refers to are all in place, Mr.

Speaker, and there will be a more definitive statement perhaps coming in the next day or two with respect to the increasing problems that we face, not just in Snow Lake but throughout particularly northern parts and south-eastern parts of this province, the wooded areas in this province, as the drought conditions continue to accelerate a very serious fire condition, indeed. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour ab le Memb er for Churchill with a final supplementary. MR. COWAN: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, my supplementary is to the Minister of Natural Resources, and as there are a number of fires, as the Minister responsible for Emergency Measur es Or gan izat ion pointed out, burning in other areas in northern Manitoba and as there is a fire - right now there's three fires, I believe - burning in the vicinity of Thompson, one being approxima tely 5 miles from the airport, two being under control and one being held, I would ask the Minister if he can indicate how many water bombers are presently in place in northern Manitoba to combat these types of fires?

And in response to his question yesterday where he indicated that there is some problem in providing enough water bombers due to the fire situation across western Canada, can the Minister indicate if he has been able to make any progress in that respect in providing more water bombers, which are becoming increasingly more necessary as this drought condition continues and as the fire conditions become more and more serious? MR. SPEAKER: The Hono ur able Minister of Natural Resources. MR. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker, I'm pleased to say that the latest information that I have concerning those three fires north of the Thompson airport is that they are, all three, under control. They have been brought under control through the use of what we might term conventional fire-f ighting means, without the use of water bombing aircraft. The second part of the question, Mr. Speaker, the water bombers will be used in those situations where their use is judged to be most critical.

That is that it's possible that the entire available water bombing fleet could be used in the north or it might be used in some other location if that was necessary. I believe the CL-215 this morning did some water bombing in the south-eastern part of the province and will probably be going to the north, either to Snow Lake or to the Porcupine fire, later on today. We have been in touch with Canada Air as to the possibilities of getting some additional fire-fighting capacity with perhaps another CL -2 15.

It's our intention to be in touch with some of the other provincial fleets whose forest fire situation may not be as critical as ours but I can advise again, as I did yesterday, that the situation across the prairie provinces and into the territories and, indeed in northwestern Ontario, is equally critical or perhaps even more critical than ours is in Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for Elmwood. MR. RUSSELL DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to di rect a qu estion to th e Minister of Educ ation conce rning volcanic du st and the government advisory against strenuous outdoor activity.

Has he issued a specific directive to all school divisions concerning this matter? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Mi nister of Education. HON. KEITH A. COSENS (Gimli): No, Mr. Speaker, I believe the Minister of Health in his remarks yesterday gave a general statement in that regard that I'm sure everyone in the province was aware of. 3871

Wednesday, 21 May, 1980 MR. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, that's my point. Given that there are still track meets being held today and scheduled for tomorrow, there are baseball games being played, soccer games yesterday and all over the city and probably all over the province, would he now advise the boards and principals to suspend outdoor athletic activity for the next 24 to 48 hours as a precaution? MR. COSENS: Mr. Speaker, we are following the concentration of this subs tance rather closely.

Apparently it has lessened rather dramati cally since last evening and at this point is not at as serious a proportion as it was yesterday. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR. GARY FILMON: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Natural Resources. I wonder if he could give us a current update on the forest fire situation near Norway House? MR. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, my understanding of that situation is that my staff are providing advice and equip ment to the band and to the local government at Norway House.

I think some three qu arters of our equip ment available in th at immediate area is being brought to bear on those two fires and my understanding is that they are at least being contained. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. A. R. (Pete) ADAM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Yesterday, I posed a question to the Minister of Agriculture. In his reply he stated that there was sufficient supplies of feed in the province of Manitoba for at least two to thr ee weeks before farmers would be selling off their livestock.

I'm wondering if the Minister could confirm if the farmers have not already started to sell off their livestock even before he made that statement. MR. DOWNEY: Mr . Speaker, I don't believe I indicated from two to three weeks. I said probably for a two-week period. The information that I indicated to the House was the fact that there were feed su pplie s available, it was a matter of distribution, and that those particular individuals who have those feed supplies are somewhat reluctant at this particular time to, in fact, sell those supplies.

So the information I provided was accurate, but because of the extended dry weather conditions and hot winds, the time limit on the amount of feed and availability is somewhat reducing as we see days like today. So the information I provided was a matter of fact, that there is available supplies, but there is again reluctance by some producers to sell down their feed supplies, when in fact they have livestock of their own. MR. ADAM: Thank you. A supplementary to the same Minister, Mr. Speaker.

I wonder if the Minister can confirm th at ther e has already been a considerable drop in the price of livestock because of the fact that cattle are being sold. I believe the cattle dr opped five cents a pound today or yesterday. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, as has been indicated earlier by the Member for Rock Lake, the fact that there was some reduction in cattle prices, because of the amount of deliveries coming to market and the lack of available pastures and available feed supplies in certain regions.

I would also indicate to the member that it's probably a greater problem in the provinces of Saskatchewan and Alberta, it's not just a Manitoba problem but one of all western Canada, and I want to assure him that the Department of Agriculture, as is the total government, looking at the alternatives that can be implemented to deal with the situation. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose with a final supplementary. MR. ADAM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I wonder if the Minister could advise the House what transpired at a meeting that they had, I believe in Regina, in regard to the severe drought that western Canada is facing at the present time, and if the government will be prov idin g assistance in th e form of freight assistance for transportation of hay and other feeds that may be required. Will there be an assisting program to help farmers to move grain from one place to the other? MR. DOWNEY: Mr .

Sp eaker, as the memb er indicated, and I have indicated prior, there has been a meet ing between the federal authoritie s, AgCanada, PFRA, and the provincial Department of Agriculture to put a co-operative effort forward to organize and help the producers who will be affected by the drought and who have been affected. The member suggests, or asks the question, will there be a feed program, or an assistance program introduced?

Those are one of the alternatives that are being assessed at this particular time, as the question yesterday was asked, are we looking at a feed bank, also one of the alternatives that we have to look at. But first of all, it's a matter of identifying a source of supply which can, in fact, be brought in to the producers. That is the particular key at this particular time. · MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for The Pas. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Speaker, a question to the Minister of Natural Resources in regard to the forest fire situation.

The Minister has commented on the placement and use of the large CL -2 15 water bomber, which leads me to ask the Minister whether or not the government has, in fact, contracts for Canso water bombers, a smaller water bomber, and whether these planes are serviceable, and if so, where are they being deployed at this time? MR. RANSOM: Yes, Mr. Speaker, we have the usual contracts in place, I believe for three Canso water bombers, and unfortunately one of those has engine problems at the moment. They are being used, though, wherever the situation dictates; as the 3872

Wednesday, 21 May, 1980 member will appreciate, it's possible for the aircraft to be ferried from one fire to another on fairly quick notice, so they are used wherever it's thought that they could be most effective and most useful. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Speaker, service ability of the Cansos has been an ongoing problem that we've faced in Manitoba. I wonder if the Minister could indicate to me exactly who makes the decision, or exactly where the decision is to made as to where the water bombers will be assigned during such a critical time as we have now. Where is that decision made? MR. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker, the decision to date has been made by the .staff responsible for fighting the fires, but ther e is no qu est ion tha t as of yesterday and today, as the situation becomes worse, I know that I as Minister responsible will be more closely involved with at least being kept up to date on a continuing basis with the pressures that are on my staff for firefighting and for giving a priority basis to various fires. So I expect to be more directly involved, but up to this point it has been in the hands of staff, as has been the usual situation over the years. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for The Pas with a final supplementary. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister could clarify that further, because each person in charge of each fire would be demanding this kind of equipment, and I assume th at somewhere in the system, somebody has to make the decision for the whole province, as to exactly where the allocation will be and what areas are the most critical in these very critical times. So I wonder if the Minister could be more specific in his answer. MR. RANSOM: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

I think the honourable member is perhaps aware that there is one person who is in charge of forest protection in the province, and the actual work in the field is carried out by crews in the regions who report for administrative purposes to the regional managers, but the overall co-ordination of effort, especially with respect to the water bombers, is done by the one person who is responsible overall for fire protection. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Mi nister of Labour. HON. KEN Mac MASTER (Thompson): Mr .

Speaker, the Member for Churchill asked a question the other day about the upcoming layoffs that might take place at Behlen-Wickes Company Limited, a company that does in fact, produce agricultural equipment. I understand they do not anticipate any employee layoff in the near future, but of course with the drought situation in the province, this doesn't mean to say that there couldn't be some in the future if the conditions prevail as they are today. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon ou rable Memb er for Wellington. MR. CORRIN: Mr.

Speaker, my question is for the Minister responsible for Natural Resources, and arises as a result of the fire in the Assiniboine forest park area in the Charleswood community of this city. Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Minister if he can give us a status report on the welfare and, hopefully, the well-being of the natural deer herd residence in that particular park and, in so doing, we were wondering whether or not the combination of the fire and the drought will have a serious effect on the status and welfare of that particular wildlife resource. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Minister of Natural Resources. MR.

RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, I apprecia te the honourable member's concern as a great many people are concerned about the deer herd which exists in the Assiniboine forest. I do not believe that my staff have been directly involved with that fire. That would be the responsibility of the municipal corporat ion, if I'm correct in my general understanding of how that fire would have been fought. If I could venture into an area of my own experience, Mr. Speaker, having worked as a wildlife biologist myself at one time, I would judge that the deer herd there would not be in any jeopardy because of the drought. MR.

SPEAKER: Order please. The time for question period having expired, we will proceed with Orders of the Day, on the proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Finance and the amendment. The Honourable Member for Gladstone. COM M ITTEE CHANGES MR. JAMES R. FERGUSON: Mr. Speaker, before Orders of the Day, I would like to make a change on Economic Development, substituting the name of Mr. McGregor for Mr. Wilson. MR. SPEAKER: Are those changes agreeable? (Agreed) BUDGET DEBATE MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Minister of Government Services has 22 minutes. MR. ENNS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, last night as the supper or the evening adjournment of the House took place I was in the midst of quietly but forcibly reminding honour able mem bers opposite, and indeed some members on this side of the House, that the kind of initiatives, the kind of prog ressive moves that this bud get entails was nothing strange to a Conservative government. It needs to be said from time to time as the years go by.

I was, if I can recall correctly, rem inding ho nourable memb ers opposite tha t it was a Conservative administration that brought about the fundamental reforms to education in the Sixties; the consolidation of the school districts; the building of the vocat ional schools; the setting up of th e Foundation Program, which has hardly been touched in the last eight years of the previous administration. Mr . Speaker, what th e honour able members opposite were very fond of was remo ving the plaques, the bronze plaques, from the vocational schools and replacing them with theirs when they 3873

Wednesday, 21 May, 1980 renamed them. You see, we built the schools, and they came along and remember, we used to call the Red River Community College the Alphabet College because it had a long list of alphabets to its name, Ma nitoba Techn ical Institute of Education, or something like that. There was a modest plaque there at the time that school was opened with the then appr opr iate recog nition of Conservative Ministers of Education and Premiers, but that plaque of course was removed and replaced when the school was called the Red River Community College. Mr.

Speaker, I don't fault them for that but they did the same thing in The Pas because we also built the school in The Pas. They did the same thing in Brandon because, of course, we also built the school in Brandon. Mr. Speaker, we built the schools. Mr. Speaker, the same thing can be said about so many other major and funda mental th ings. Mr.

Speaker, I can remember as one of the last things that we had committed ourselves to doing when we - I speak as a former Conservative administration - to sp end at th at time th e very su bstantia l amounts of some 90 million or 95 million to re renovate, to rehabilitate the Health Sciences Centre. Mr. Speaker, we were never given that opportunity but the other govenment had. They had eight years, Sir. What did they do in eight years? They studied it for eight years.

Sir, we in this budget, we in this budget in this time, are moving and spending, not 95 million or 92 million now, but have committed some 13 4 million, 135 million to the renovation of that, the most major health facility in western Canada, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I can go on with so many things indeed. As I was reminding honourable members opposite, some of those very lasting institutions that were brought about in the agricultural community, The Ma nitoba Crop Insu rance Corpor ation, th e Credit Corporation. Mr.

Speaker, some of these things that are going to come and become so important as we face this drought year, they are having and are in a position to provide a lasting impact and a lasting help to the farmers of Manitoba. Compare that, Mr. Speaker, to the 34 million that was invested into The Beef Insu rance Income Program. Mr. Speaker, what have we to show for that 34 million? What have we got to show for that, Mr. Speaker? Mr .

Speaker, and tha t is the di fferenc e; tha t is the fu ndamenta l di fference between what honourable members opposite do from time to time with public money and, Sir, what this government in the past has demonstrated we are prepared to do. Mr.

Speaker, returning to that theme which the honour able mem bers hope to use agains t the Minister of Finance, against this government, that this progressive budget in some way indicates a flip flop on the part of the Conservatives simply is in total disregard of the historical fact of what previous Conservative admin istrations are capable of and what continuing Conservative admin istrations will prove year by year . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order, order please. The Honour able Memb er for Point Dougla s have a question? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Speaker, I did have a little note here and inadvertently, Sir, the Honourable Member for Point Douglas and you, Sir, helped remind me of that note, because you see, I didn't want to be unkind to the Honourable Member for Point Douglas but this is really what happened, Mr. Speaker, in this whole budget. They were so certain that they could predict and forecast the kind of budget that they would be getting from this side, that in fact the honoura ble memb er wrote his response to th e bud get before the budget was delivered. Mr.

Speaker, he wrote the response to the budget before the referendum vote was held last night because last night, after the results were in and he spoke at 9:30 or 10:00, he was still hoping that perhaps we will go this way or that way and he was expressing a grave hope that when the referendum was held that people in Quebec will vote right, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: Order, order please. The Honourable Member for Point Douglas. MR. DONALD MALINOWSKI: Mr. Speaker, on a point of privilege. The Honourable Minister doesn't know what he is talking about, that I didn't know about the results.

I spoke 9:30, and we had the results already. Down there it was 10:30. Withd raw, by golly, something like that. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Government Services. MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I will happily withd raw the remarks that he now wished to say. He said, Mr. Speaker, last night in his speech that we are doing nothing in this budget to help the needy and the poor and that's what he wants me to withd raw. In other words, he wants me to withdr aw that statement to say that we are doing all kinds of things to help the needy and the poor and of cou rse that's precisely what this budget did.

But he was so sure, you see, that we weren't going to do that, that he had that written into his speech in advance, I would suggest, of really comprehending - let me put it this way - of comprehending the full impact of the budget. Mr. Speaker, that little bit of historical fact, I think, is worthwhile to repeat from time to time, because, Mr. Speaker, th e one thin g th at Conservative administrations can take considerable pride in, and that is that they are prepared, from time to time, to make the hard decisions. We were prepared to come into this Legislative Assembly with two fairly tough budgets.

They were budgets that I was very proud of, because they made it possible to bring in the kind of bud gets that we have every capability and desirability to bring in from time to time. Mr. Speaker, that isn't only true of Conservatives in this administration, it is true on the federal scene too. The Ho nourable Memb er for St. Bon iface alluded to the fact that he had at least some respect for our federal counterparts by having brought in a very tough budget, standing up to their principles, and indeed going down to defeat on their principles. But, Mr.

Speaker, as I suggested to honour able members last night, all that demonstrated is that we had the same results. We were in the more fortunate position of having a majority in the elected Assembly 3874

Wednesday, 21 May, 1980 that we could carry out that necessary two-year program of fiscal responsibility, so that we could bring the affairs of the province to the state that we can now look with some ho pe and with some enthusiasm towards the future development of the province of Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, I also, of course, had the privilege of having listened to and having debated some eight NOP Budgets. Mr. Speaker, I won't pretend that those were my happiest years in this House, although there were occasions when I had a bit of fun. But, Mr.

Speaker, by and large the NOP Budgets had as their central theme higher taxes, but even more important, had a constant readiness, a constant eagerness for government to intrude into the affairs of virtually all our people, all segments of our society in Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, they intruded in the affairs of the farmer, the y intru ded in the affairs of the businessmen, they intruded in the affairs of our professional people, they intruded in the affairs of our resource deve lopment, to the extent, Mr . Speaker, that that whole era, and we tend to forget this, Mr.

Speaker, indeed I attribute our election success in October of 1977 to a very large extent, that what this amount of government intrusion brought on during those eight years was a constant turmoil of confrontation. We tend to forget that, Mr. Speaker. We tend to forget the number of people, the numb er of organ izat ions th at the previous administration was always in confrontation with. Mr. Speaker, they were always fighting with the farm community. We had more farm demonstrations on this House than we have seen in the last 20 years, and yet, Mr.

Speaker, not for lack of funding, not for lack of dollars allocated to the Department of Agriculture. They showered the Department of Agriculture with moneys, but we had demonstrations here of all kinds. Mr. Speaker, we had demonstrations, we had confrontations with the business community. We had fights with the municipal people. Mr. Speaker, we had fights with our own Civil Service, when they were all demonstrating on the steps here, threatening a general strike, threatening a strike action, the first one that any Ma nitoba Go vernment ever was threatened with. That all happened, Mr.

Speaker, under the so-called benign, benevolent leadership that a Labour-orientated government was supposed to provide. -(I nterjection)- Mr . Speaker, the Honourable Member for Elmwood suggested, yes, and we had our fair share of demonstrations, but that is a very interesting comment, Mr. Speaker. Do you know when we had them, Mr. Speaker? The first six months. Well, I will stretch it, the first twelve months of our administration. People couldn't get off the track, they were used to demonstrating against their government, so when we took over they just carried on. Mr.

Speaker, there were some pretty serious demonstrations. We had the women of this province very upset, very upset, until the steadying hand of our Attorney-General calmly brought common sense and legislation into that ill-advised piece of legislation that was brought into this House by members opposite, that we had the courage to withdraw and repeal in the face of the demonstrators on the front steps, and then we introduced it with common sense, with the necessary amendments. And, Mr.

Speaker, I could bring you - I haven't got the actual briefs, but the briefs of the last two years coming from these same womens' organizations heap accolades on this government. Mr. Speaker, the last brief in particular, they have a whole list of things that they take particular note in thanking what this government has done. Mr . Speaker, when have we heard on that which used to occupy so much time, so much time, two sessions, two and one-half sessions, Family Law, Sir.

That is what bothers honour able mem bers opposite, that contentious matters like that, handled with responsibility and with common sense, and with massive reform, I might add, without taking away in principle the purport of the bill, but handling it in a responsi ble way, are now, to the best of my information - and we from time to time ask the Attorney-General as to what kind of response, what kind of complaints, what kind of situations are arising in the courts of Manitoba as a result of the passage of that law, which was condemned from all members opposite, and which they used to delight in orchestrat ing big demo nstrations against.

Mr. Speaker, it has obviously worked. Most important, it is obviously working to the satisfaction of the very militant groups that felt so bound to demonstrate in what could be called fairly forceful manners. Mr. Speaker, we have in these two years, despite the fact that we have been fair game in terms of political opposition to the kind of fiscal restraints that we have introduced; we have been fair game, and we have been open prey, you might say, to some of the kind of politics that can be used agains t a government that exercises those restraints in an open and in a free society. But, Mr.

Speaker, the real concern of honourable members opposite is that this opposition has in fact diminished to the point where general acceptance, where general applause - I am not suggesting, Sir, that we having people on the steps applauding our every action, but, Mr. Speaker -(I nterjecti on)- The Ho nourab le Memb er for Elmwood again helps me out with my speech. That demonstration that was mounted this summer on the issue of Day Care was perhaps one of the best demonstrations about the real response by the vast majority of Manitobans with respect to the policies on an issue like Day Care. Mr.

Speaker, seldom was a demo nstration better orga nized and better publicized, with the capable leadersh ip of former Cabinet Ministers' wives and other activists that have trained themselves in the business of orchestrating demonstrations. Mr. Speaker, it fizzled. It fizzled. What was supposed to be a mass rally of - we were led to believe 500, perhaps 1, 000 - turned out to be, by my count, probably 70 or 80 concerned parents, with another 40 or 50 friends and relatives that walked around in a circle with him for a little while. Mr.

Speaker, I don't suggest for a minute that we should take any comfort from having any kind of demonstration, although it's one of the facets of a free and open democratic society which I take no objection to but, Mr. Speaker, when you compare that to the kind of demonstrations that honourable members openly invited during the eight years of their reign, in the very corner where they should have had no difficulty, in the area of labour alone, Mr. Sp eaker, to this da y those severe labour 3875

Wednesday, 21 May, 1980 demonstrations, the Greensteel Industries, the strike that involved the union accreditation, that involved the inner strife in the party and is ripping that party apart right now. That's why the Member for lnkster is sitting where he is. Mr. Speaker, we can only surmise that the people of Manitoba have refused or have not allowed themselves to be whipped up into a high political state to oppose the policies of this administration.

They have, through repeated information and speeches delivered by members on this side of the House, acknowledged and accepted some of the tougher medicine that we have had to hand out in our first two budgets, Mr. Speaker, just as, I believe, many people in Canada . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The honourable member has five minutes. MR. ENNS: . . . just as many people in Canada will, with the benefit of hindsight, be prepared to say that that Clark budget really wasn't that bad after all. When Messrs.

Trudeau and company bring up the gas prices to 20 or 25 or 26 or 30 or 40 cents, I believe the Member for Seven Oaks suggested a figure even considerably higher, perhaps then, with that benefit of hindsight, some people will suggest that the harsher economic measures included in the Crosbie budget were, perhaps, the right medicine for this country. Well, I'll never convince my honourable friends opposite of that, but Mr. Speaker, I can tell you that there is growing evidence that more and more Manitobans and more and more Canadians hold to that view. Mr.

Speaker, I'm satisfied that in the province of Manitoba, providing that we can properly allocate our resources where they do the most good, and keep some basic princi ples in mind which my honourable friends opposite seem to lose sight of in this budget. You see, they have made a very tactical error in attacking this budget, and I'm speaking specifically to the Member for Seven Oaks but other members have mentioned it as well.

They have suggested, for instance, or they have vacated the area of the rich, the very rich, because they said, well, the Conservatives looked after them by doing away with estate taxes; besides there's not enough of them to worry about editorially. But what they are in the process of doing on the debate on this budget, they are now moving away from the poor because they recognize that we have zeroed in on the low income family, those people most in need. The Member for Seven Oaks expressed it best. He says, but what have you done for the middle class, for the middle income earner; what have you done for them?

Well, Mr. Speaker, that one particular class, the one thing that you can do for them is some thing they'll never do, and that is reduce personal income tax. It's the one thing they'll never do. How often have we heard in this House, there is perhaps no other group in our society that the personal income tax impacts on more severely than the middle income earner. We have moved in that direction, not as much as we would like to move, but I can indicate to you, Mr. Speaker, we intend to move further in this direction. I intend to indicate to you, Mr. Speaker, that I don't consider this budget an election budget.

You'll see an election budget when it comes around, Mr. Speaker, and we will keep our commitments to those people, not in compartmentalized sections of our society, not like our friends opposite used to like to say, well, I don't particularly care or want the support for anybody living south of the Assiniboine River, or in Tuxedo, or in this part of the city, or southwestern Ma nitoba. Mr.

Speaker, we care, and we will demonstrate th rough our budgetary methods, through our programming methods, and through our delivery of th ose services that we accept the responsibility for governing for all Manitobans to the best of our ability. I'm satisfied that the people of Manitoba will take two things into mind when they are next asked that question. They will check back on the track record , the capability of previous Conservative administrations, and they will measure that up to the direction that we were heading at that time. Mr. Speaker, I don't think we'll be found wanting. MR.

SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Mem ber for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I listened with some interest to the remarks of the Minister of Government Services, and I intend to deal with what he said shortly. Because I believe his analysis is the correct Tory line as to what this budget presents, and how it will in fact, according to their fondest hopes, result in a victory at the polls. I intend to demonstrate, Mr.

Speaker, that on the contrary, this bud get is in fact the dying gasp of a dying government and that not only will they not get the support of traditional pockets of support that the Conservatives had garnered for years, but they will lose a sizeable segment of the business community, and I intend to address my remarks in that direction. Before I begin, Mr. Speaker, I want to say that there are some items of merit in the budget. I wouldn't say that it's a total wipeout.

For example, there is some expansion of day care, largely brought about by the pressure from the New Democratic Party, assisted, aided and abetted by the Member for Fort Rouge. There has been a slight increase in education funding in the method of payment made to the school boards, and that, too, Mr. Speaker, I suggest is largely the result of pressure by the New Democratic Party ecrucation critics in the House.

Property tax rebates, well, for the past two-and-a half years we've been hitting the government at every opportun ity, sayi ng that they have frozen property tax rebates, asking them to do something about it, asking them to help the taxpayers at the municipal level, and finally, after a considerable period of time of no increases, considerable period of inflation and escalating property taxes, they have finally done something. Another matter, and the final matter that I think is of some merit in the budget, is tax exemptions for political parties.

That's a matter that I have spoken on; it's a matter that I believe raised last year and I think rather than the political parties of Manitoba attempting to circumvent the federal legislation by sending money to Ottawa and then getting it back, I think this is a step in the right direction. But you know, those items are small, Mr. Speaker, even if you added all of th e so-called social 3876

Wednesday, 21 May, 1980 programs up. I believe the Minister of Finance himself said that there was only some 30 million worth of programming in the budget on the basis of 2.5 billion. So I mean, what are we talking about? What is all this elbow room? What is this new thrust, this new social conscience, this heart, never before exhibited by the Lyon administration? It amounts to a pittance, 1-1/ 2 percent on a budget of 2 billion.

When I listened to the Minister of Finance read his budget, I listened very carefully as to where he was targeting, and one thing that really distressed me was the fact that there was no mention of young people in the budget; in particular, that group that we have been concerned about for the last few decades, going back to the Roblin administration, going back to the TED Report, going back to the days when Sid Spivak was the Minister of Industry and Com merce, the concern about that dynamic group, 25 to 45, the group that has their education, has their skills, usually is married and has children, people who are upward mobile.

These are the people who are leaving this province. These are the people who are going to Calgary, Edmonton, Vancouver, and Toronto. And so instead of attempting to target something to the sort of suburban young married couple, the government in the Budget ignores this particular group. You know, if we ignore that group in the middle long enough and only focus on the very young or the very old, eventually we will have a society which I think will wind up being rather elderly and, to a large extent, on welfare.

If you are not going to provide the jobs, if you are not going to provide the stimulation to the economy - and there is not stimulation to the economy in this Budget, Mr. Speaker - then you are going to have an exodus of people. I want to attempt to shoot a bullet right between the eyes of the members opposite in the sense that they think that they are the party that the business co mmuni ty will automa tically vote for, and in particular the smaller entrepreneur, the fellow who owns a little store, has a little business like a parking lot or that type of operation, to that person.

Go and talk to them, you know them better than I do. Some of the members on the opposite benches know them better than I do. Go and ask them what they think of the scene, what is it like, what is the action like in Manitoba today. -( Interjection)- That is the point. As my colleague from St. Boniface says, what action? The outlook is grim and the circumstances are grim. There is no action in Manitoba today. Talk to people who are r eal estate agents, talk to people who have money to invest, they are not putting their money into Manitoba.

They are either putting in into savings; they are either -( Interjection)- 65 million. How much Great-West put into Denver? How much would Great-West have put into the east yards of the CNR? They were going to put in up to 500 million worth of development. They got no support from the Minister of Ur ban Affai rs. They coul dn't get it through Council. They got blocked by a lot of red tape, so they put their money into Denver. They are putting other money into Denver, aside from their head offices, and they are only putting a portion of their head offices across the street.

We could have had all that development money in Colorado; we could have had that 500 million long-term project - (Interjection)- Well, look, get realistic. I am quoting them. I am talking to my friend, the bank manager, and I am telling him that their figures, the CN and the Great-West combination over a period of time, 500 million. Go and check the records. I have files; the articles are in the paper. People, Mr. Speaker, businessmen are investing outside of Manitoba, and what really disturbs me is they are investing a lot of money in the U.S.A.

I know real estate agents who are taking people to Florida, not to buy some cornball piece of land and build a house, people are buying motels down there, people are investing in all kinds of businesses down there. This is under the Lyon Government; this isn't the Schreyer administration. This is the guys who, they know how to put their hands on the lever to make the economy hum. Well, I mean what is happening? Wha t is happen ing? What is happening with unemployment and what is happen ing with out migration? What is happening with investment? We are in the doldrums.

We not only have inflation, we have high unemployment. What are they doing about either? I believe, Mr. Speaker, the economists call this something like stagflation. It is a combination of stagnation and inflation, that is what we have. What is the Lyon Government doing about it? I talked to a woman I know, who works for the Hudson Bay Com pany, a couple of months ago. She has worked there a very long time, I don't wish to be more precise. She told me that business this year in her department is 50 percent of last year, in January, February of this year.

She said Hudson Bay sales in her area, and from what she could tell in the whole store, are half. Who is to say that last year was a good year? I doubt if last year was a good year. If you go downtown and you look at the stores and so on, where are all the people? Where is all the business? Who is making a killing? The bailiffs. The bailiffs are really making it. If the Member for Wolseley can hang around for awhile, he will be a rich man. All he has to do is keep collecting defaulted debts and defaulted properties. He will be the richest man in the House.

I don't know if my figures are right, but I believe that the bailiffs' business is up something like 500 percent, if I recall correctly, a few months ago. 500 percent for bailiffs and collection agencies. If you want to get into business in Manitoba, there is where to put your money, start a collection agency. I am just saying, Mr.

Speaker, that when you get this kind of context in Manitoba, this is the way it is in the economic realm, this is how business is in Manitoba, then I say that when the firms are closing, when th e architects and engineers are pulling together or go bankrupt, or moving into their homes and closing their offices, or flying into Saskatchewan and Alberta to try to keep a family and a business going here because there is no business; when the construction trades are facing high unemployment, leaving to work elsewhere; when the contractors are going belly up; when the housing firms are unable to build and going bankrupt and so on, what does a busi nessman have to lose in voting NOP?

A businessmen in Ma nitoba has a guarantee of starvation and bankrupt cy under the Lyon administration. He has a certain fate of death. If another administration comes in, then his chances are infinitely better, because business wasn't bad when we were in power. The economy was rolling. 3877

Wednesday, 21 May, 1980 People were making money; people were working. They weren't leaving in as large a number. I say, Mr. Speaker, that the government is going to get a shock. Just like in Quebec, we had a vote where a lot of people were intimidated. They were being pressured to vote yes, and they didn't say much, but when they went into the ballot box, the ballot went in as a no. And I say the same thing is going to happen to this government. Some of their best friends, some of their allies, some of their historic supporters are going to say nothing but vote NDP. I see a fall-off, Mr.

Speaker, in support for the government. Do you remember how every year when the Throne Speech is read how the galleries are always full? Do you remember how, when no matter who the government was, they'd invite all their friends and people are trying to get into the gallery and often they're standing six deep at the back? This year I looked into the galleries to see what it was like - thinner attendance on the floor at the back, very thin attendance upstairs, because people don't like - I'm talk ing about Conser vatives - a lot of Conservatives don't like what their government is doing.

They demons tr ated that in the federal election. They didn't have the nerve to go and vote against their own party, but they stayed home. So there was a fall-off. They lost federal seats, and we have seen what has happened over the past year to Conservative support in the province. We've seen a great decline from 10 seats down to 7 and then from 7 down to 5. Things aren't what they used to be. The NDP went from 2 to 5 and then from 5 to 7, so you can see the arrows. They're just crisscrossing. One's going up and one is going down. It is tough being a Minister of Eco nomic Development.

I don't know where that man is, but I recall to you a remark made by Bob Preston at that salute to the venerable veteran from Virden. When Bob Preston said th at he understood that th e Minister of Industry, who was then the Honourable Bob Banman, couldn't make it because he was at a ribbon cutting at another plant closing - and that's probably the fate of Tory Ministers of Economic Development, this is their fate, to close plants; to attend closings like the Swift's closing and other clo sings and other tr agedie s under their administration. Mr.

Speaker, I want to say to the Minister of Government Services, that although he spouts the Party line, he doesn 't do it with very much conviction. I have some sympathy for him, because I know what his problem is. I know, as do the members of the Conservative backbench, what his personal problem is. He supported Walter Weir. When the big Tory convention came in the old days for th e new leader, he went with Weir - (Interjection)- the Minister of Government Services - and as a result of that, his First Minister has never forgiven him for that.

He has never forgotten the wou nds th at were opened in tha t Tory convention. And he's not the only one. There are other people in the backbench that I could name who backed Walter Weir and have paid for it by being frozen in the backbench or by being busted from portfolios that they want. I have to say -(I nterjection)- yes, we're all family. Well you know the Enns' boys are family, but I don't know about the Tories. I just want to say to the Minister of Government Services that I was somewhat distressed by his remarks yesterday in praise of the First Minister.

Of course he is usually not sincere, so I didn't take them too seriously. There is a man with some ability. There's a man who can speak. Here he was telling us a few years ago, with pride and fire in his heart, when we had that great debate on the hermitage, that he wasn't going to kiss the boots of the secretary of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union. Well, you know, that's pretty dramatic stuff, but last night when he spoke he kis sed the elevator shoes of the First Minister. He was saying what a great guy he was and what a fine Minister he was. -(I nterjections)- That feisty little Premier.

I'm just saying, that I know that if the Minister spoke from the heart as opposed to from his political position of weakness, that he would have said something unkind, but he was trying to be kind to his First Minister, which is a remarkable feat. It's ver-; difficult - (Interjection) - well, we're going to get more people. Mr. Speaker, the air of the Minister of Government Services is that he says they have really outsmarted the NDP this time; boy have we got those guys. We put in some of their program. The Tory line is this, isn't it? I've been listening to the Tory line.

The Tory line is, now we have a heart; see look at our budget, we have a heart; we're doing social things. Right? That's a Tory line. The hand is quicker than the eye, that's the method. Mr. Speaker, they haven't been listening to us. They have not been listening to us. We have talked about unem ploym ent, and they hav en't done anything about that. We have been talking for two and a half years about out-migration, and they haven't done anything about that.

We've been talking about the need for more construction to stimulate the construction trades and the business community, and they haven't done anything about that. So they haven't accomplished anything. The Minister of Government Services said yesterday, look we tightened our belts for a couple of years but now that things are really rolling we're handing out the goodies. We saved up all this money - 13 9 million deficit? Where the heck is the balanced budget?

You know, you had a couple of years of belt tightening and now you're telling us you have a bunch of money in the kitty that you are starting to distribute. Come on, you're joking. You don't have any money at all. You're running up the provincial debt. The cupboard is bare, and this just doesn't wash, Mr. Speaker. want to give you an example about Tory hand is quicker than the eye stuff, because the Minister of Government Services is pretty good at this. He came in here the other day and he announced a new lease for Autopac. He slid that one in.

I noticed he announced it after the estimates were over; after the exam ination in committee was over. Or did he announce it there? -(I nterjection)- Oh, he was negotiating it. Within a few hours of the committee concluding he announced it. He didn't negotiate it so much before. He closed the deal within hours of closing the committee and then he came in and said look, we're renting all this space in Eaton Place. He tried to make it look, Mr. Speaker, as if this was some kind of an accomplishment. I want to tell him that he shoJld have built his own building. Mr. 3878

Wednesday, 21 May, 1980 Speaker, why did the Minister of Government Services lease 50,000 feet from one of the co-ops for his Motor Vehicle Branch and others, and why did he then later on lease 100,000 square feet from that new Eaton Square Development a few months later for his MPIC building. It's a very very interesting announcement that he made. He told about how they're leasing the space and how they were getting a large leasehold improvement allowance. I'd like to know about that. I'd like to know about how much they're getting, but I'd like to particularly know how much it's going to cost.

Because they're not just going to pay rent, Mr. Speaker, they're going to pay rent of almost 1 million a year to Eaton's and God knows how many more; half a million over the.re to the co-op; make it a million, thr ee or four hundr ed th ousan d, plus leasehold improvements of I don't know how many dollars a square foot, and I don't know how many dollars a month for parking. He didn't tell us that. He just said it was 8.95, 9.00, a square foot. And I'll tell you why they did it, Mr. Speaker. I know why they did it, and they know why they did it. Because they didn't want to throw down on the books.

They didn't want to add to the deficit 14 millio n for a build ing, because then their deficit would have been another 14 million dollars up. They want to spread it over a period of time. They want to have an annual payment for leasing, but they're afraid of adding to that capital deficit. They are going to pay more, Mr. Speaker. They are going to pay more. They are going to pay less in the first year or so relative to putting out that initial investment.

They are going to pay less the first year or so, but over a period of ten years when they escalate the lease, when they pay for their leasehold impr ovements, when they pay for their parking, they're going to pay a lot more. And that's what they're trying to do. They're taking the short run position so that they can do things in the short run, letting their maintenance go, all over. Mr. Speaker, I am told right now that they are letting all of their building contracts go. They are contract ing out almost all.

Now the Minister is shaking his head. -(I nterjection)- Of course, sure, absolutely, of course the business community likes it. What they're doing, Mr. Speaker, is by the back door. They are doing this on the Q.T. They're letting the Archives Building go in June. They let 270 Osborne go from in-house to outside contracting. They let the old Gra ce go to some pri vate contractors. The Agriculture Building, 210 Osborne MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER, Abe Kovnats (Radisson): Order, order please. The Honourable Minister of Government Services on a point of order. MR. ENNS: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I've been in the House long enough to know that I shouldn't let an otherwise harmless remark go by unresponded to. All members suggested tha t somehow these contracts were being let out on the Q.T., on the quiet. Sir, they are being publicly advertised, five or six to eight firms, Manitoba business firms, actively bidding on these things, hardly on the Q.T. Well, Sir, the point of order is that I am somehow allowing this kind of public work to be done without the benefit of full public scrutiny, without the benefit of public tendering. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, if the Minister has a policy of contracting out all government work for contract cleaning, let him announce it. Let him stand up and say this is a Tory policy. We are firing all of these people that used to work for us and we are bringing in private contractors. I could say a little more than that as to why they're doing it, but I'll save that for another occasion. So they have a systematic policy of letting go government staff. Why? Well my colleague could see this immediately. My colleague from Seven Oaks knows exactly one of the reasons - keep the staff man years down.

Boy, there's a good thing, pretend that you're cutting government emp loyees, keep the rolls down, keep the prices up; make your friends happy, give more business to certain people, and you don't have to pay as high wages. The people who work for us in this building, they're our empl oyees. They make pretty good money, but when they go to work for some, not all, some private contractors, they are not well paid, Mr. Speaker, and the job they do is not very good. And this Minister, I don't believe is enforcing high standards of cleanliness in the sense of maintenance and vaccuuming and so on and so on.

You know, you can always do it cheaper, you can always do it cheaper; empty the garbage less frequently and let the dust pile up on the desks and so on. You can do it cheaper and you can save money as well. So, you know, I know where the advice came from. It came probably from the Minister of Corrections; it came probably from the Member for River Heights; it came from the Minister of Urban Affairs, all those old Erwood Currie guys, remember them? The old Erwood Currie stuff on City Council? Commission a report, tell them what to write, they whip it up, and then you bust the entire department.

Well, they did it the noisy way. They didn't want to do it the noisy way but it worked out the noisy way. But this Minister is smarter. He's a little smarter than they were. He' s doing it by the back door. He's implementing the policy but he's not announcing the policy. Well, we just caught him, Mr. Speaker, we now know the policy so we're going to start following and monitoring what this particular Minister is doing. I want to say to him on the business here about his Autopac building, I really think is somewhat sad. A great deal of work was done. Mr. Speaker, I have some old files here.

Here is a planning report that was done in '73 for MPIC and MVB. We were going to combine them because they worked together. They can access common areas of work and interact. Don't tell me for one moment that you're leasing empty spa ce. There's empty spa ce in Winnipeg, Mr. Speaker, but they're not leasing it. They're going into some new space. They're having somebody develop something. They're not taking up an empty building. They're not taking up a building that's under construction. They're taking an old building that would someday go up. 3879

Wednesday, 21 May, 19 80 MR. ENNS: The Credit Union Building is an old building? MR. DOERN: That's an exemption. MR. ENNS: Eaton Place? MR. DOERN: Eaton Place isn't new space. MR. ENNS: The 12 million development they're building there? MR. DOERN: Eaton Place isn't new space. Eaton Place is just old space that's held in reserve. MR. ENNS: We're talking about urban renewal? We're talking downtown urban renewal? MR. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, there's no new office towers t hat these people are accessing for MPIC. They're confusing two things.

They're saying there is a surplus of space and then they're saying to somebody, go and build us some space. Mr . Speaker, imagine the amount of planning done in government over the last seven years to make an efficient and economic operation. There is one report. Land was acquired; the Brunswick and other land was acquired at the request of the city of Winnipeg. Parking was going to be provided. We'll hear your details on parking. Parking was going to be provided and it would have have been available at night to th e Concert Ha ll and to the - (Interjection)- Mr. Speaker, I'm having hard time hearing myself here.

I wonder if you could ask the Minister to be less vigorous. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order please. I would hope that the honourable members would give the courtesy to the member who is deba ting, the courtesy so that he can hear himself think. The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, the building that was going to be designed was going to energy efficient. I don't know about what he's moving into, and we're going to find out about where that lease is going to go in five years.

We'll see where that lease goes as to what the escalator clauses are, so he's holding aside some of these investments that we made. We invested 1 million in land and that land is worth way more than that. We eliminated the Brunswick. I won't elaborate on that. I say that's an achievement in itself. Moved the Countess of Dufferin; spent 350,000 on architectural fees for the building and tendered the first phase of construction which was killed by this particular Minister, and had some traffic studies and so on.

The Minister can do what he wants but I'll tell you one thing, he'll never prove that what he is doing is more economical than the government building it's own building and combining its operations in an efficient manner. Because over a period of time, Mr. Speaker, we'll show that what he's doing is more expensive and we'll show that it was done primarily for the reason that they were afraid to add to their deficit. Because if they had built, their deficit would have gone up another 12, 13 million bucks, and that's what they were trying to avoid. Pay less now, but pay more in the long run. That's their strategy.

That's what they'r e doing, and they'r e leaving a legacy to the people of Manitoba of capital that's ground down and higher operating costs that are necessary in the long run. Mr. Speaker, I assume I have about ten minutes left. Is that correct? Thank you. Mr. Speaker, the one thing that I thought was really sad about this budget was that there was practically no mention of any kind about the city of Winnipeg.

I mean, here we are in Manitoba, 600,000 people live in the city of Winnipeg, and I doubt, I doubt that if you look through this budget, you would even find the word Winnipeg mentioned once. - (Interjection)- I don't think there is ... Well, my colleague says there isn't 6 cents for 600,000 people. There is no section, no

section on Winnipeg. - (Interjection)- There isn't anything in here. Nothing on the city of Winnip eg. No programs. - (lnterjections)- MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please, order please. I would hope that all members would wait their turn to get involved in the debate and let one member at a time speak. The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Thank you, Mr . Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, in the Throne Speech, in the Throne Speech way back in February, there was talk that the government was going to introduce a variety of special housing programs, or that he would address housing problems over the next few months. Well, he didn't, and they talked in the Throne Speech about what they are going to do and in the budget, no urban thrust, no urban policy, no concern for the people in the city of Winnipeg, because they're targe tting on the big busine ssman and they' re targetting on the big farmer. They don't care about the small farmer.

They're talking about the big cattle man and the big farmer and the big businessman. That's the guy that they are thinking about, Mr. Speaker. When we come to the main problem facing the people of Winnipeg today which is a rotting urban core, as was once said by Eric Wells . . . Eric Wells when he ran for mayor some years ago talked about the doughnut with the hole in the middle and he described the city of Winnipeg in those terms, that the centre core was declining and that we had to do something about that. Well, you know, Mr. Speaker, we did something about that.

We developed the Convention Centre, which was of some stimulus. We took -( Interjection)- Just a minute. A MEMBER: Let's be honest. MR. DOERN: All right, let's be honest. The Weir adminis tr ation thought about it; the Weir adminis tration talked about it; the Schr eyer adminis trat ion put up the money and built the buil ding and stimu lated the economy. (Interjection)- Well now we're getting the Minister of Corrections there. He's regressing. He thinks he's a city councillor coming into the Cabinet room, arguing with the old NOP Ministers. He's talking a different sort of tune there.

What are they doing for that urban core? We put in public housing; we put in senior citizens homes; we put in money to repair 3880

Wednesday, 21 May, 1980 housing; we had social programs. We were going to put a courthouse in the old area; no, they're putting it back here. We were going to put an Autopac building; no, they're putting it back here. We were going to build a lab; they tried to kill the lab. We built a garage; they keep the garage empty for a couple of years. I mean, talk about ridiculous, talk about wast ing millions of dolla rs. There is an example there. You know, what are they going to do? What are they going to do?

Well, thank God, one thing they're not going to do is talk about rail relocation, I'll give them credit on that one point, because if they talked about that they would then be confronted with another hole in the centre of the city with many acres to be developed. The problems are right there, Mr. Speaker, right now. It's that whole centre

section represented to a large extent by my seat mate, and these people are not doing anything for the city of Winnipeg. What they are doing, as well, is they're not providing sufficient funds for education. They are not giving the taxpayers, the homeowners, the municipal govenment and the school boards enough money and so there is a big deferral, next year, a big deferral of capital projects. Why doesn't the Minister of Corrections bang the table in Cabinet on that? And as a result of the high school taxes, they are deferring all of these urban programs. Mr. Speaker, there is much more that could be said.

I wish I had time to comment further on the failure of this government. I just want to say in passing that one of the incredible things about rail relocation that I read in the study of the Dillon Report is, in that particular procedure, they want to talk about not building bridges in the core area, they're going to build four new bridges on the highway. They'll build a new bridge over 59, a new bridge over Main Str eet, a new bridge over Henderson, and a new bridge over McPhillips, and waste money like that, so I'll give them credit on that point.

But on the remaining problem, which is the problem, I don't want to create a new problem, the centre part of the old CPR yards, I don't want to create new problems, I say to them, what are they going to do about urban decay, about poverty, about the special needs of students in the city of Winnipeg? And if we look at their budget, Mr. Speaker, they have given the back of their hand to the 600,000 people in the city of Winnipeg. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Mem ber for Virden. MR. MORRIS McGREGOR: Mr.

Speaker, I would first like to express appreciation for the odd comment that comes my way on my behalf as Deputy Chairman of committee, and it is appreciation of whether I'm right or wrong, I have tried to be fair and reasonably correct, I believe. On the other hand, I just say thanks, I have appreciated it. I've said many times that I really feel and, Mr. Speaker, I'm sure you've heard it, that I do believe I'm the best bloody political body in this House and I will have 56 people that will say otherwise, and that's their opinion and that's mine. But I do appreciate some things I see.

This survey, in recent days, late last week, and I think that's true reporting, goldarn it, if it isn't. Some are up tight over here, some are up tight over there, but I look at my job as full-time. A year ago, I quit farming to make it a full-time because I wasn't covering my territory as much as I thought I should, and not only that, I just come to . the age of late fifties, I couldn't do this farming out there by night and by weekends coming in here and trying to hold my end up. So I just congratulate Ingeborg Boyens for putting this in the paper and putting us in our place.

If we're ripping off the taxpayers and are getting paid by the taxpa yers in another form, have we the right to expect our full pay here? I just think it's wrong. We do have an indication of a pay increase and maybe there will be a chance later to open up on that. I just say to that lady, I'm not one who congra tulates the press reporters that often and often I want to crucify them if I could, but they're up a little closer to heaven than I am most of the time and so I won't try to reach that pedestal. -(I nterjection)- Well, I don't expect that.

But in carrying out that message, I am out of this House some of time and when I go out - and I think that there is another purp ose. The people out there in the rural area they expect their member to race home on a Wednesday or a Thursday, and I have said it many times, you know, I am here and I should be in Winnipeg, but when I can come back and say that May 8th, the Virden Advance, and they just happened to have the May 8th date on there, that was a Thursday, and I was sure I couldn't be there at a police appreciation award night, and I was there. I didn't get back for the Friday morning.

Or I could go further down to Rivers Gazette on April 16th, again I am out of this House, I am there doing my duty, be it taking a cheque. Again, Rivers Gazette on April 23rd, and maybe that is padding my own account, but I like that article, I think it puts - us rural members, we are more regular attenders. Why? Because we are two or three hundred miles away from our place of business, and so we are.

It does put the city members to a little disadvantage, but I don't believe if we stand in the public pedestal and say we want to be elected to represent them, I don't believe we have the right to pick another salary from another angle of the taxpayers. If we have something going on the Saturdays or Sundays, that I did all my political life here until last spring, I think that was something. If I wanted to work Sundays to make a little amount of money, that amount of money didn't really amount to be that much, but I always looked - My objective is personal.

I always want to know that I am paying more income tax than a Cabinet Mi nister's salary, and if my taxable income is 100,000 more than a Cabi net Minister, I am rea sonably successful in any one year. Some member over there has got my income tax forms, and while I really haven't got as much work to do or felt I was used fully here, that is not in my powers. I will serve my people. I am here elected to serve the people, and if I can make something, but I won't expect the taxpayers to subsidize me. One problem that we have got in the works, I hope, and my Minister of Mines is here, is the oil surface rights.

I know that is in the making and I just sincerely hope, on behalf of western Manitoba, that we do see a bill here. I will read just one paragraph of a letter from a former PC memb er in Saskatchewan, and you know how scarce they are, Robert Kohaly. This is a letter to me some time ago. 3881

Wednesday, 21 May, 1980 He was in, and he is the one that made the original surface right legislation back in, I guess, th e Premiership of the Liberal that is deceased now - (Interjection)- Ross Thatcher, right, and followed up by the Socialists, and they are carrying on and expanding it. This is just one paragraph: May I encou rage you in your efforts, and particularly to be careful that the legislation does not create two types of owners, so that the already host to oil field installation do not personally bear the brunt of the industry while the newcomers enjoy the benefits of an enlightened policy.

I am sure that is something that is a great concern to my Minister and myself, but as I said to my Minister earlier, let's get a piece of legislation and we can take out or add to. I realize this is an isolated problem in this Chamber, as probably the Member for Souris-Kill arney, the Member for Arthur, and one or two others that may be involved, but in Virden it is a big question. I hope to see that implemented. Getting to the direct budget. I was quoted in the Brandon Sun, and I think it is right and it is quoting McGregor. It says there is a list of beneficiaries in the Manitoba Budget.

He sees low income families, senior citizens, small business, school divisions, and education in general, as the winners in Finance Minister Don Craik's Budget brought down Tuesday. McG regor, whose constitue ncy include s an oil producing region in WestMan, said mining and oil industry will certainly be encouraged. There, Mr. Speaker, they are encouraged by legislation last year and we are seeing more activity out there. Probably the thir d and probably the mo st important is the drought situation this spring. I was talking to my Minister of Agriculture.

I guess he is not in, but I am urging him, because I have had many calls from people with cattle that are pasturing alongside wildlife or recreation areas, that is a foot high in grain, but because they are leased to Ducks Unlimited or some wildlife association, they are deprived. These are people I believe to be reliable. I could name one, Kelly Taylor, that I just came off the phone talking to, and he feels really annoyed.

He is having to ship his cattle out and yet this grass, and I am talking now of valley land, that grass that is on the side of hills, that isn't nesting area, and I urge my Minister and his colleagues to look at this as a real project. It may cut the duck hatch down just slightly; they will return, and maybe the cattle may not necessarily return if we don't do everything in our power to encourage and allow them to feed when it is just over the fence. We were somewhat criticized on this side of the House when Oo-Za-We-Kwun, one of the builders there, Edson Trailers, had a layoff.

Well that layoff was just temporary. They do have a backlog of trailers and that is smart business to lay people off. You can't keep staff when you are not producing. That same plant, I will be going out with my Minister of Economic Development tomorrow, I believe, to open a Sekine Bicycle Plant. Now that will take up some of that slack, so it is not all bad out at Rivers. It would be nice to see them building more trailers -(Inte rjection)- Well, it is a break even and this is trying times.

If you can hold the budget reasonably close, as my Minister of Finance did, and if we look back at last year's he projected quite a healthy deficit and we waived off the freeze on Hydro, it almost balanced, and maybe with a little luck this year, and the breaks, and I believe it is better to overestimate your expenditure and underestimate your revenues, and if it does become reality it is closer, rather than go the other way, make a real hero story today and a year from now, well, I am sorry, we are out 100 million. I would rather go the way my Minister is.

Just yesterday we had a delegation in, again, from rural Manitoba, repres enting the standard bred racing people, and I was sitting there with my Minister in charge of racing, and one, Don Andrews from Virden said, you know, I want to tell you one thing, Mr. Minister, I appreciate that you have set our purse structure well in advance of the races. I am not a race expert by any means, but I remember the many years when we were also on this side of the House, they would be two weeks into the program and no one knew what the purse structure was, the people who were operating.

Likewise, when my opponents were there we were struggling, and I am glad to see that this is set up and the people who are operating these tracks, be it the agricultural societies on behalf of the standard breds or Mr. Wright and associates at Assiniboia Downs. I was concerned when there was a struggle of 100,000 to 200,000 needed to make the thing balance and I was almost fearful my Minister would say, well, we will put one percent more on the top, and I knew that to be the wrong route. He never asked my advice, but he did it on his own and his advisers.

I give him full credit for taking that 16 8,000, I believe was the figure, out of the 2.6 million, that is a net gain to the Treasury of this province on behalf of the Downs. I sometimes wonder, I have said it before, does the government really have a right to 2 million, clear net with no effort. You know, we are aw fully fortunate that we don't have racing at Minnesota or the Dakotas.

I was at the Peace Gardens last weekend and I was saying to them, I was sitting with several legislators and a senator, and I said, I don't know how you people could be so religious or think so slowly to pass up the kind of millions. I said we, in Ma nitoba, ho pe you wi ll always stay tha t way because we make the big bucks. Also at the same time as I was on the Peace Garden Board, I invited them to come to Winnipeg, probably one or two · or three meetings down the road, and the lady legislator, and it always opens my eyes. I've lived a lot of my life here in Winnipeg and I don't appreciate this city.

I don't appreciate the arts, the wide streets, we take it for granted. This lady legislator said, there is no city in central midwestern United States like Winnipeg, Manitoba, for its art, for its wide streets, and it's just as I reported. Another group I met from Quebec that had expresed the same thing, and it makes you proud. We in the extreme west are a little an noyed that Winnipeg is such a big place, has more power than we would like to see, but also I am glad to hear when I hear Americans or out-of-province or out-of -countr y people remark what a terrific city we have.

I think we should be appreciative of Manitoba when we just compare what is happening in Miami over this last weekend. We are sitting here, we do have that cold weather, but we got a terrific province, and I think you are going to see -(I nterjection)- No, well, I 3882

Wednesday, 21 May, 1980 didn't think it would bloom when I was in opposition, because I am proud to be in Manitoba. I feel something like the Member for lnkster, who said I am here not for the bucks, but with a little bit of pride, and I think that is the only reason one is here, and I don't think we come here to make bucks. We don't come here to certainly break even, I don't think, and I get a little annoyed when we come in here, suddenly while we are in power we will jack our wages. I don't really buy that.

The lady press some time ago asked me and I said as far as the MLAs wages, they can do what they like with it, to me it is not worth the bloody hassle and I will say it again and again and again. Personally to me it is not worth the bloody hassle, and yet I am enough of a party man, if the whip is put on I'll respect it, and I hope it is put on to all and not make individual cases that can stand up for their little hero worship attack and say, but I am not. Because by God, Mr.

Speaker, if one over here that is pretty new can do that, there is one here pretty old in years of service to this House, will do what the devil he likes to do in that case. - (Interjection)- No, he doesn't do it. He runs his own show, but I have always adhered to the wishes of my party on a general basis. I have been watching the Pacific Western Airlines, hoping, hoping, hoping we will get that service to Brandon. I have enough lighters - well, I don't know whether now is the time. I will maybe set them on - if some pages wanted to pass them out now it would be fine with me.

I was talking to Calgary just a few moments ago, because I have had them for months, thinking that there will come the da y (Interjection)- They are explosive, so you have to take it for what it is worth. The other thing, I am glad to see my colleague, the Member for Minnedosa, got nice press yesterday and I think there has been a lot of good speeches. I also compliment the Member for Crescentwood. I believe it is the most respectable speech I have heard him make in my times here, but I might have been out some day when he was better.

But to see my colleague from Minnedosa, I keep continually saying I am setting the win so that he can win in Rivers, but maybe there is a possibility he might win on his own yet. Anyway to do with hig hway programs, and I appreciate my Minister of Highways, the hardtop that I do have. I have got a constituency that is absolutely unique, I have four branch lines with dead ends in the constituency and if anyone can find another constituency in the Dominion of Canada that way, I want to see it. We have lost two, one CN - No, by golly, we have lost two CN, and we have lost a little bit of th e CP in my own line.

We hope for consideration -(I nterjection)- That is a bigger subject that I want to entertain. I will look after the railroad in rural Manitoba if the Honourable Member for Elmwood will take charge of the one in the city area. You know, isn't it a fact, everyone wants to eat at the government's table, but no one wants to do the di shes or pay for th e gr oceries. When the Honourable Member for Port Douglas was speaking last night, that kind of struck me, when he was saying about the universities tuitions that went up, and it's true.

I have four children, one will be in Wi nnipeg next year, one will be in Brandon or Assiniboine, and I know what it costs, but I believe in being a responsible parent, and I also believe my young people have got to know that they've got to start paying our way, because there's too many people in this society, as I understand it, too willing, to eat at the government table and not want to pay the grocery bill. And my young people, when they finish Grade 12, they get a sum of money, and that's the kind of money, if they go out into the labour force, they get it; if they go to university, that's all they get.

They can borrow from their parents, as mine do, and I'll get it back. But I really would like to see my Minister look at this, and I realize it's a big problem. Do the people that go through university that cost every taxpayer what, 20,000 per pupil, or those who don't touch that area, go into the work force, is there not a way of balancing this to encou rage more people? Is education the whole thing? I'd like to see my children educated, but I think that anybody can do anything he wants to do and make a lot of big bucks without thi s bunch of names.

I think I am an extreme example, but I'll tell you, look at my income, and it will be there every year for a lot more years than some of the big wheels around here will be. And I did it without education, because if you put in an effort, you can get anywhere. And I just say that we are trying to put too many people through our universities. We know the cost, and by comparison, and maybe it's not a good comparison, in Spain the graduating is six percent, and what is it here? About 60 or 70. Now maybe theirs is too closed, but I kind of think ours is too easy.

The other thing I'd like to refer, you know, as the cameras come in, by golly, our attitude does change. I think now, I can see us caucusing, and I remember the day when we were over here, we were laughing at the other party when they were caucusing in the eyes of the public. I don't see much wrong with it, but I don't intend to campaign exactly that way, and I think again, while I was crediting the press a minute ago, I know I put the question to the Minister of Highways, that I said I want you to tell Mr.

Speaker that I asked you this question; he did, and the tittering from the press up there, and I must say it was mostly female chatter, because I was asking, when are the road restrictions going to go on. Sure, he told me. But I want everybody in Manitoba to know. That was a Friday. Monday, the snowplows are out getting out to their bin to get the grain into that elevator, they had two weeks yet.

Those are questions, the only kind of questions that I'll answer, and maybe last Friday if I could have got it, I would have put one to my Minister of Agriculture regarding this program now they've got going, but he, in the estimates, the wee hours of Friday morning, gave that answer. Well, I guess maybe that's all. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: Thank you, Mr . Speaker. It's a pleasure to enter the debate on the budget being debated at the present time. I believe, Mr. Speaker, the most serious problem facing Manitobans and 3883

Wednesday, 21 May, 1980 western Canada, and I suppose part of the United States, is the extremely dry weather that we're facing at the present time. I'm sure it's a concern to every member of this Assembly on both sides of the House, and it's a very, very real problem. If any of you who have been out in the country lately, I know there are a lot of members who live out in the country, and I am one as well, but if you go out in the country and look at brown, parched pasture lands, you get very concerned.

I was asking the Minister questions in this regard yesterday and we asked a number of questions in the agriculture committee as well. The problem is magnified because there is barely enough moisture to get germination for the crop this spring, and unless we get a very heavy rainfall within a short time, the problem that we now face with the livestock industry is going to be transferred over to the grain producers as well. The situation this year is that it's so widespread.

The dr ought extends from the foothills of Alberta down into Ontario and as far south, I suppose, as down into the States, probably as far south as Texas. I know we've had droughts in the past, Mr. Speaker, but we have been able to draw on supplies from other areas, and perhaps a drought in a certain region, we can obtain supplies of feed from other regions of the country, but it's pretty difficult this year, Mr. Speaker, because there is just nowhere to go.

There is nowhere to turn to obtain these supplies of much needed feed, not to mention the winter supply of feed that's going to be required; people are looking for feed at the present time to supplement their pastures already. So Mr. Speaker, we are very, very concerned about this, and that is one of the reasons why I asked the Minister, because this drought is much different from any we have seen in the past. There has been some access somewhere, maybe a long distance away, there has been access to some supplies, but this year there appears to be nowhere to turn.

I have already been receiving reports from people in Ste. Rose and I have urged them to take advantage of what little supplies there are. I have been in touch with the alfalfa pellet processors in Manitoba, and I am informed that two carloads of pelleted alfalfa will be coming in to Manitoba from Tisdale, Saskatchewan, and it will be sold at 140, that is the metric tonne, which is about 2,2 00 pounds. Now I believe that Tisdale is pretty well cleaned out already, as far as alfalfa pellets are concerned.

Dauphin has about 100 to 15 0,000 pounds of pellets there; it's the 15 percent protein pellet and it sells for 12 3.00. Now, Cargills had two trucks there today loading up at Dauphin, so what small supplies are available, Mr. Speaker, are going to disappear within the next three or four days. So I'm urging those farmers who have phoned or got in touch with me to immediately try and tap into this source, which is very, very limited.

Hudson Bay junction, there's a pelleting factory there, for alfalfa, and the product that they put up there is a 10 percent protein, which is qu ite low and may have to be mixed in or supp lemented with grains. The price of grain has already escalated. I have asked the Minister, in view of the seriousness of this year's drought, that I believe the province should have interfered and got in on whatever supplies were available before they disappear completely.

I believe that the province should have tried to assemble these supplies ins tead of just co-ordinating, get the buyer and the seller together, just isn't good enough, and the Minister today, in answer to one of my questions, was that those who have supply do not want to sell it. Well, that is probably another problem that we'll be facing. Some people may have a limited suppl y of feed on hand, but they will be very reluctant to sell this feed, especially if they are in the livestock production themselves.

Now the Minister yesterday indicated that there was sufficient supplies of feed to last for two to three weeks, and therefore he did not think that farmers would be selling off their livestock, but Mr. Speaker, the ranchers are, at the present time, and have already, started to reduce their herds. I don't know to what extent this is taking place, but I have spoken to some people yesterday, in fact I spoke to a person from Dauphin, and he told me that he had already reduced his herd because he didn't want to be caught in the panic when the big rush comes on. And I'm told, in speaking to a fellow from Ste.

Rose earlier this afternoon, that the price of cattle had gone down five cents a pound. This is only the beginning, and unless . . . the Minister today says that he hopes the packers will be good corporate citi zens and not take advantage of a serious situation. Well, Mr. Speaker, the Minister is naive, if he thinks that the corporate sector is in business to be fair and not take advantage of a situation. We have been doing that for years and years and years, taking advantage of unfortunate situations in other parts of the country.

It doesn't matter whether it's in another country or whether it's in another province. As a matter of fact, it doesn't matter whether it's in another farm. Even tr ading between farmers becomes pretty ruthless on occasions when there's a shortage of supplies. This is unfortunate, but this is the name of the game in a free market economy. You take all you can get and never mind what happens to the rest of the people. But, Mr. Speaker, I believe that the budget does not come to grips with what is happening in the agriculture field.

We have seen a clear demonstration in this particular situation where there's going to be a very serious problem facing ranchers this year, unless we get a rain "and I think, Mr. Speaker, it's already too late. It may alleviate some of the pasture problems to some extent, but as far as hay supplies, I think it's already too late, because I am told already that alfalfa is coming into bloom, and it's only three or four inches high. And it's maturing a month earlier or more, I suppose, than it would normally. And as a result of this, even grasses are going to seed. So there are not going to be any supplies.

I haven't checked my own fields yet, I haven't had the opportunity, but I intend to do so. And of course I have already been receiving phone calls to find out if anybody can have access to what acreage we have in hay. Well, my hay has been spoken for anyway last year, so any extra that I may have other than for my own use - but I'm not sure whether I will have any available, Mr . Speaker. And I'm sure many ranchers who have, from time to time, extra supplies on hand will be faced with the same situation, there won't be any available. 3884

Wednesday, 21 May, 1980 So I would have strongly urged - and I still do, if it's not already too late, because I think the supply is already disappearing so fast that there won't be any available - I would have urged the Minister, I think he's missed the boat already, Mr. Speaker. I believe he bombed out. I believe he's already bombed out, Mr. Speaker, and he should have been prepared for this, because we're not looking at just a little

section of Manitoba that's facing a drought or a flood, in some cases, we're looking at three provinces and down into the United States as well, so it's a completely different ball game. It's a far more serious situation than we've ever faced, I believe, in my memory, and I've been around for a few years and I just can't recall anything as drastic as what we are witnessing at this particular time. I think in view of that, the Minister should have prepared himself and obtained available supplies and buy up the pellets before they moved out.

I understand that Cargill is buying hog wild, pellets wherever they can get them, and I suppose they're going to profit by it. Now the Minister says, I hope they don't take advantage of the unfor tunate situation tha t ranchers find themselves in. Now Cargill's I am sure are good corporate citizens and they're going to do their duty, Mr. Speaker. They're going to buy up all the pellet supplies in Dauphin and Hudson Bay Junction and in Manitoba and they're going to have their trucks going all over the place buying it up. Now it's the Minister who should have been doing that.

Cargill is buying up and what are they going to do, Mr. Speaker? Well, they'll just hold it off the market for a while until the opportune tim e to sell it. I was informed - in fact, it's the pellet manufacturer in Dauphin who told me that - he said there are two Cargill trucks loading up now. So you can put two and two together to see what's happ ening, Mr . Speaker. Here we have a Minister who is naive enough to believe that Cargill is going to bring pellets out from all over Manitoba and sell them at cost or whatever and I'm sure he will not see that, Mr. Speaker.

I have also been informed that grain prices have already started to rise. -(I nterjection)- Well, I was told this morning that back in Ste. Rose the price of oats went up six cents a bushel. Mr.

Speaker, those who have grain on hand are reluctant to release it at this stage of the game so it just aggravates the whole situation and I think that the Minister could have bought up at least the alfalfa pellet supply available and at least to put a damper on the runaway prices of hay feeds, if there is any available and I don't think there's going to be any, but at least there would have been some damper effect, to say, well, here is a Minister sitting with several carloads, 50, 60, 75 carloads of pelleted feed in storage to put on the market at a certain price and to hold a damper on it because we know what happens when things get out of hand.

It's always the primary producer who will pay in the long run and I am afraid, Mr. Speaker, that what is going to happen is that some of these producers, rather than pay an exorbitant price for available feed, would prefer to liquidate and take their loss in that manner and I think that's what we're going to see. Then the panic is going to start when everybody realizes that there will be an extreme shortage of feed and they're going to say, well, we have no choice but to sell and that is going to be disastrous, Mr. Speaker, to say the least.

I am very disappointed that the Minister has not seen fit to move a little faster. In fact, he hasn't been able to give us any-definite answers of really what's in place. I have posed those questions today and we don't know whether there is a program in place to assist for transportation or otherwise and it appears that there is nothing to date to help the farmers. Some of the farmers are asking that we hold those feed stocks that are availabe in Manitoba rather than let them go out of the province.

One of the problems that compounds the situation has not just started this spring with the drought but what we see happening today is also a result of the feed grains polic y in Canada, not only in Mani toba, but supported by this government, Mr. Speaker, and that is to have a feed grain policy, a non-board feed grain market, which I think has been a total disaster for western farmers.

The government of Saskatchewan has made a study jus t recently and we've had tha t in th e comm ittee, in estima tes, and we brought th e information there to the attention of the Minister and we find that in the last three years, Manitoba farmers have lost 30 million in depressed prices for the feed grain. Now the sad part of it, Mr. Speaker, is, it's fine if the Member for Virden or the Member for Rock Lake or the Member for Ste.

Rose wants to sell grain on the non-board market and he's willing to take his shellacking, that's fine, but the person who wants to sell his grain to the Wheat Board should be protected, and he is not, Mr. Speaker. He is not protected, because of the policy that was put in place by the Liberal government and masterminded by probably Mr. Lang, Otto Lang, and supported by this government, supported by this government, Mr. Speaker. This is once that the Conservatives and the Liberals were in bed together.

I'm talking about the Conservative government supporting a non-board market for feed and I'm talking that it's Mr. Otto Lang that's brought that policy in, Mr. Speaker, and Manitoba farmers have lost 30 million over this. Now I say it's fine if you want to take your loss, go ahead and take it, but those people who want to sell to the Wheat Board should have the right to sell it there. They have the right to sell it there but, Mr.

Speaker, if Cargill or any other grain company wants some of that and they're short of feed from the non-board pu rchases, they can have access to that Wheat Board stock that's sold to the Wheat Board for the export market and that grain is sold at the non board price. The fact is that the farmers have not received a non-board price competitive to U.S corn prices. What happened, Mr.

Speaker, is that the Minister has a right to order the Wheat Board to transfer some of the grain that I sold to the Wheat Board and I want to get the export price for it, not a depr essed non-board price, and the Member for Rock Lake should have the same opportunity. If he wants to sell his grain to the Wheat Board he should have the right to do so, but this is not a two-way street, Mr. Speaker, it's just a one-way street, it's all going to the open market. Mr.

Speaker, this is a disaster what is happening now and western farmers have lost 143 million in the last three years over that policy. -(Interje ction)- Yes, Mr. Speaker, yes, the Minister of Highways tells us, how can you lose 3885

Wednesday, 21 May, 19 80 money when you sell your grain? If you lose money at a loss, if you sell grain at a loss -(lnterjec tion) Mr. Speaker, if you sell X-number of bushels at a loss of 80 cents a bushel, Mr. Speaker, if you sell more, you've lost more. Your cash flow is going down, it's not going up. Your equity is going down. You're going out of business. You keep that up for a number of years and you are no longer in business. If you lose on every bushel that you sell and that's what the Minister of Highways is trying to tell us. Mr. Speaker, the off-board barley has been way below the Wheat Board price.

That's the kind of government we have in this province. Mr. Speaker, the Ontario farmers are a lot smarter than some of the fellows I hear over here. You know, there's a farmer there from Rock Lake; the Member for Rock Lake is a farmer. Ontario farmers are a lot smarter than we are. What's happened over there is that they are exporting their barley, they're selling their barley to the Wheat Board for export, getting a high price and turning around and buying from the Member for Rock Lake or whoever wants to sell it on the non board market.

Last year they sold half a million bushels of barley on the export market and they're buying cheap non-board grain here and getting subsidized on it besides, Mr. Speaker. We've got a subsidy they're paying them on top of that. Mr. Speaker, what is the member trying to tell us? What is he trying to tell us, Mr. Speaker? - (Interject ion)- They're selling their grain on the export market and they are turning around and buying our barley here at non-board prices so they are making money on you, Sir. The farmers over there have got it all over you fellows, Mr.

Speaker, the farmers have got it all over them, they know what's going on. So I would suggest that they should take another look at this, Mr. Speaker, they don't know what they're talking about. So Manitoba suffers a 30 million loss; western farmers have suffered 143 million loss in the last three years and as long as that grain policy is in place they will keep on losing mo ney. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Minister of Highways on a point of order. MR. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I wonder if the member would permit a question. MR. ADAM: I don't have time to waste with the Minister of Highways.

They would have us believe, Mr. Speaker, that if you sell cattle at a loss that you're doing well, you're doing well. They would have you believe, Mr. Speaker, that if you sell grain at a loss, lose 25 or 50 cents a bushel, or 80 cents a bushel in the case of what's happening now, you are doing well, you are doing well, Mr. Speaker.

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	31-4-62
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	31st 4th hansardpdf 62.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	056827a6955b8fb69dc2d510e8be1892e607914d

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