Manitoba Hansard — 20 September 1988 (Sitting 40, 34th Legislature, 1st Session)

34-1-40

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 First Session - Thirty-Fourth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 37 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOl. XXXVII No. 40 - 1:30 p.m., TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 20, 1988. ISSN 0542-5492 Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer, Province of Manitoba

MANITOBA lEGISlATIVE ASSEMBlY Thirty-Fourth legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME CONSTITUENCY AlCOCK, Reg Osborne ANGUS, John St. Norbert ASHTON, Steve Thompson BURREll, Parker Swan River CARR,James Fort Rouge CARSTAIRS, Sharon River Heights CHARlES, Gwen Selkirk CHEEMA, Gulzar Kildonan CHORNOPYSKI, William Burrows CONNERY, Edward Hon. Portage la Prairie COWAN,Jay Churchill CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste. Rose du Lac DERKACH, leonard, Hon. Roblin-Russell DOER, Gary Concordia DOWNEV. James Hon. Arthur DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. Emerson DRIEDGER, Herold, l. Niakwa DUCHARME, Gerald, Hon.

Riel EDWARDS, Paul St. James ENNS, Harry Lakeside ERNST, Jim, Hon. Charleswood EYANS, laurie Fort Garry EYANS, leonard Brandon East FllMON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo FINDlAY, Glen Hon. Vir den GAUDRY, Neil St. Boniface GlllESHAMMER, Harold Minnedosa GRAY, Avis Ellice HAMMOND, Gerrie Kirkfield Park HARAPIAK, Harry The Pas HARPER, Elijah Rupertsland HElWER, Edward R. Gimli HEMPHIU., Maureen Logan KOZAK, Richard, J. Transcona lAMOUREUX, Kevin, M. lnkster MAlOWAY, Jim Elmwood MANDRAKE, Ed Assiniboia MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. Morris McCRAE, James Hon. Brandon West MINENKO, Mark Seven Oaks MITC HElSON, Bonnie, Hon.

River East NEUFElD, Harold, Hon. Rossmere OlESON, Charlotte Hon. Gladstone ORCHARD, Donald Hon. Pembina PANKRATZ, Helmut La Verendrye PATTERSON, Allan Radisson PENNER, Jack, Hon. Rhineland Pl OHMAN, John Dauphin PRAZNIK, Darren Lac du Bonne t ROCAN, Denis, Hon. Turtle Mountain ROCH, Gilles Springfield ROSE, Bob St. Vital STORIE, Jerry Flin Flon TAYlOR, Harold Wolseley URUSKI, Bill lnterlake WAS Yl YCIA-lEIS, Judy St.

Johns YEO,Iva Sturgeon Creek PARTY LIBERAL LIBERAL NDP PC LIBERAL LIBERAL LIBERAL LIBERAL LIBERAL PC NDP PC PC NDP PC PC LIBERAL PC LIBERAL PC PC LIBERAL NDP PC PC LIBERAL PC LIBERAL PC NDP NDP PC NDP LIBERAL LIBERAL NDP LIBERAL PC PC LIBERAL PC PC PC PC PC LIBERAL PC NDP PC PC LIBERAL LIBERAL NDP LIBERAL NDP NDP LIBERAL

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, September 20, 1988. The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDI NGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (lnkster): Mr. Sp eaker, I beg to present the petition of S. Brar, S. Pritam. S. Sekhon and others. calling upon the provincial Government to request the federal Minister of Immigration to exercise her ministerial prerogative to allow the return of Sally Espineli to Canada. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMI TTEES � Mr. Harold Gilleshammer (Chairman of the Committee of Supply): Mr.

Speaker , the Commi ttee of Supply has considered certain resolutions, directs me to report prog ress and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr. Praznik), that the report of the committee be received. MOTION presented and carried. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS Mr. Speaker: Prior to oral questions, may I direct the attention of Honourable Mem bers to the Speaker's gallery, where we have with us His Excellency Valerio Colonna, who is the Ambassador of Italy to Canada. On behalf of all Honourable Mem bers, I welcome you here this afternoon.

We also have, in the loge to my left, Father Donald Malinowski, who is a former Member for St. Johns. On behalf of ail Honourable Mem bers, I welcome you here this afternoon. We also have with us, visiting here this afternoon, 14 adult students from the Red River Community College. These students are under the direction of Mrs. Lucy Epp. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for lnkster (Mr. Lamoureux). On behalf of all Honourable Mem bers, we welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Economic Forecast Drought Impact Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Mr.

Speaker , my question is to the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness). In his Budget, the Minister proj ected a 2 percent real growth for Manitoba in the current fiscal year. The Minister now says the growth will be 1.4 percent or even less, even though the Conference Board indicates that it, indeed, may well be below that figure, and attributes this downturn to the drought. Does the Minister contend that the drought is the single factor behind his revised projections? Hon. Clayton Manness (M inister of Finance): Mr. Sp eak er, the revised proje ctions come from the Conference Board of Canada.

Our department believes that the forecast of 2 percent, as given in the Budget, is the one that still stands. The mining activity is doing well; manufacturing within the province is doing wel l; the transportation industry is doing well. The 2 percent forecast in the Budget is the one that presently the Government will live with. The 1. 4 is the Conference Board of Canada. I would ask the Leader of the Opposition (Mrs. Carstairs) to approach them as to why they feel it has fallen down to 1. 4. I am led to believe it is because of the drought. * (1 335) Housing Start Decline Mrs.

Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): CMHC has just revised its forecast of housing starts in the City of Winnipeg down to 2,500 for 1988, which is 25 percent less than the previous year. Much as we recognize the severity of the drought, what possible connection is there between the drought and the severe decline in housing starts in the City of Winnipeg? An Honourable Member: Tory times are tough! Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Mi nister of Housing): We have a remark that Tory times are tough.

I want to remind the Member who explained that, that I know how tough it was to get building lots under that particular Government. However, I would like to mention that it has been explained that there is a shift in housing starts in this particular year. I want it to be known that it is not attributable to the interest rates. If anyone knows, the housing industry will see probably, in 1988, the housing starts around 1, 700; in 1987-2,300-this is from January to August; and in 1986-2,500. What has happened in the housing industry is that you do have an overabundance of housing.

Also, you do have affordable housing in this particular province, unlike in Liberal Ontario where you do have duple xes that are costing $238,000 apiece compared to our $70,000.00. Mrs. Carstairs: What a wonderful explanation for why the economy is going down! 1403

Tuesday, September 20, 1988 Economic Stimulation Mini-budget Request Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): The northern economy is also heading into a downturn. Despite the Finance Min ister's (Mr. Manness) earlier remarks, nickel prices, which were $6.55 a pound the day he brought down his Budget, are now $4.83 a pound. Our agricultural sector is weaker than expected and our urban economy is weaker than expected. Will the Minister take action now and introduce a mini budget to stimulate Manitoba's economy? Hon. Clayton Manness (Min ister of Finance): Mr.

Speaker , again the Leader of the Opposition (Mrs. Carstairs) repeats her que stion of yesterd ay. The Government will not be introducing a mini-budget; and again, I reiterate the fact that there are many sectors within the economy that are doing exceed ingly well. The economy for Manitoba, forecast by the same Conference Board of Canada, for 1989, shows a level far above the Canadian average forecast. I would wonder why the Leader of the Opposition would not see fit to draw those conclusions to the edification of the viewing public. The economy in Manitoba is not in serious trouble.

I can indicate to the Leader of the Opposition (Mrs. Carstairs), as far as the agricultural aspect of it, if she has been reading the front pages of the paper, and no doubt she has over the last few days, she will realize that there possibly is going to be a major infusion of revenue coming from Ottawa in respect of the drought problems that we have within the provi nce. The economy is doing well. Mrs. Carstairs: We were looking for some Manitoba made solutions. * (13 40) Capital Investments Projections Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): With a new question to the Min ister of Finance (Mr.

Manness). The Minister indicated in his Budget that there will be an increase in capital investment of 10.6 percent. In light of the growth projections and the rise in the interest rates, what is the Min ister prepared to present this House with now in terms of projections of capital investment? Hon. Clayton Manness (Min ister of Finance): I am led to believe that figure is still very close to 10 percent, slightly below, something in the order of 7 or 8 percent growth. Economic Forecast Growth Rate Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): With a supple mentary question.

How can this Min ister, after having admitted in the House today that the sectors, one after another, including investment capital, are decreasing rapid ly, literally day by day, how can he maintain that his growth figure is in any way, shape, a reasonable figure for this province for this year? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I am wondering again. How many times do I have to make the same answer as I have had to over the last two days? As I have indicated to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr s.

Carstairs), there are sectors within the Manitoba economy that are doing extremely well, even beyond that which we had forecast in the Budget of August 1988. So when you take into account the averaging effect across the economy as a whole, taking into account the serious drought that we have, the economy is still perf orming reasonably well ; not as well as the Canadian average, but then we never forecasted it to do that well.

The forecast for 1989, again by the Conference Board of Canada, again the source used by both Parties opposite, shows Manitoba, in 1989, having a growth rate some half-a-percent or greater above the Canadian average. We are well-positioned for 1989. Economic Forecast Report Requested Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): With a final question to the Min ister of Finance (Mr. Manness). Interest rates are up. Manitoba's pre-election federal gifts are far below those of every other province in confederati on. There is no mini-budget for economic stimulation.

Will this Minister table a new economic forecast for this province which will clearly present to all Man itobans the reality of Tory Government in Manitoba? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): We will have the next report card on the economy when we present and we table the results of the second quarter activities of this province with respect, particularly, to the Government activities. That certainly will represent and provide a report card to all Mem bers of the House and to all people in the province. At that time, the Leader of the Opposition (Mrs.

Carstairs) may be interested to see that taxation revenues, which are the best proxy as to how the economy is doing, indeed probably will show that the province is not experiencing a downturn which she would almost seem to hope that it would. The economy -(Interjection)-The Leader does not ask me specifically why it is some of the revenues are down for the first period. If she did, I have the answers to that. We are well along the forecast, Mr. Speaker . The economy is not in decline. * (13 45) Rafferty-Aiameda Project Environmental Impact Study Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): My question is to the Min ister of Natural Resources 1404

Tuesday, September 20, 1988 (Mr . Penner). On Friday, we tabled in this House a letter from the federal Minister of Environment, indicating his alleged rationale for not proceeding with a federal environmental impact study. Does the Minister concur with the letter and conclusions of Mr. McMillan, and if he does not concur with the assessment of Mr. McMillan, has he written the federal Min ister asking, indeed, for an environmental impact study on a federal basis? Hon.

Jack Penner (Minis ter of Natural Resources): As I indicated last Friday, we were waiting for the Technical Committee report, and until such a time as we have the report and we know what is contained in the report, I have indicated that we will not pursue an environmental study and not incur the extra cost that we would in doing an environmental study. I have been in discussion with Mr. McMillan again today by phone and aske d his reass uranc e that Man itoba's environmental interests would be protected, as well as water quant ity. So I am quite assured that Canada is working in the best interests of Manitobans.

Mr. Doer: The assurances the federal Minister has given Manitobans before have been contradicted on three occasions last week and indeed again by comments made by the Director of Engineering in North Dakota, dealing with the issue of a feasibility study to transfer water potentially into the Souris River system from the basin, a question we asked this Minister last Friday.

In light of the fact that there have been environmental impact studies in Saskatchewan and there have been environmental studies and public meetings in the United States, why does this Min ister not recommend to his federal counterp art that we have public, federal environmental impact studies in terms of Manitoba, as we are the last leg of this project and the one that may be potentially hurt the most? Mr. Penner: As I have indicated to you, Mr. Speak er, the requests that are being made by the Honourable Member opposite have been considered.

I deem it simply a dupl ication at this time to do either an environmental study or a public inquir y or public consultation at this time. If, however, we deem it necessary after the report has been tabled, we will do so. Mr. Doer: The officials of Environment Canada today, in their damage control methodol ogy, having met in Saskatchewan, in Regina, last week, the same three officials who app eared in Manitoba today, they said it is up to Manitoba whether or not they want to have an environmental impact study. I would ask the Minister, as Mi ni ster for Ma ni toba and th e Mi nister of Environment (Mr .

Conn ery) for Manitoba, will they immediately request from the federal Mini ster an envi ronmental impact study , a poli cy of which he disregarded in issuing the licence on June 17? Mr. Penner: I think it is beyond the comprehension of the Honourable Member opposite to realize the monies that we might spend, we or the federal Government might spend, in dup licating something that might have already happened or is happening. We might spend that money to pr otect and drought-proof southern Manitoba. We have many areas in this province that are on the verge of running out of water.

We have many communities in this province that are looking for water, including those along the Souris River, and we are in the process of spending money to study what can be done to drought-proof those areas. We would rather act responsibly and spend those monies in those communities and assure those communities that they will have water. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, those same communities that the Member op posite talks about were the same communities that fought the transfer of water from the Missouri River Basin to the Souris River Basin years ago.

My qu est ion to th e Mini ster is why would Saskatchewan feel it is in their best interests to spend money on an environmental impact study? Why would the United States feel it is in their best interest to have an environmental impact study? Why will this Government not permit the dollars to protect our environment in terms of the environmental impact study and its long-term costs and benefits for Man itoba? Why are they hiding from a public environmental impact study? Mr . Penner: Mr .

Sp eak er, the No rth Dakota Government, the United States Government is putting $4 1 million into a project that will protect the City of Minot from flooding. That same state is spending money, has allocated an amount of money to study the feasibility or the possibility of putting in place structures that will dr oug ht-proof their communi ties. An amount of $200,000 has been allocated in North Dakota to do that sort of study. They are also very concerned at the quality of water , as we are, that is coming down that river and has been coming down that river.

We have been assured by the federal Government that our environmental interests are being and will be protected under the terms of the 1959 agreement. * (1 350) U.S. Corps of Engineers Report Mr. Harold Taylor (Wolseley): On August 17 and again on August 23-by the way, my question is to the Minister of Labour and Environment (Mr. Conner y). On August 17 and again on Aug ust 23, in response to my questioning, this Min ister said that he was not worried about Manitoba needing a study on the environmental impact of the Rafferty-Aiameda. In fact, he said that his Government could depend on the U.S.

Army Corps of Engin eers for all the environmental information they needed. Given the following information, Mr. Sp eaker, that the Denver regional office of th e Environ mental Protection Agency on September 9 took the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers to task for the faulty environmental work in that study and said to the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers that if the litigation pending by the National Wildlife Federation proceeds, they will win their case 1405

Tuesday, September 20, 1988 against the U.S. Army over this issue, the question is: Does the Minister still stand by his earlier position of relying on the U.S. Army report, faulted as it is, for the protection of Manitoba's environmental interests? Hon. Edward Connery (Min ister of Environment and Workplace Safety and Health): I thank the Honourable Member for that question, Mr. Speaker . We have said from Day One that we are waiting for the report of the Technical Committee. That report will be in some time next week.

We will analyze that report; and we have said before, if that does not satisfy the needs of Man itoba, we will pursue what other action we will take. We have not ruled out an environmental impact study. Technical Committee lnterbasin Water Transfers Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Wolseley, with a supplem entary question. Mr. Harold Taylor (W olseley): A supple mentar y question to the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr . Penner). Will the Technical Committee, in that we do not even know its composition, its role, Manitoba's involvement, be involv ed in the study of interbasin water transfers? Hon.

Edward Connery (Min ister of Environment and Workplace Safety and Heal th): Mr. Speaker , our committee is looking at all aspects of the Rafferty Aiameda, the international agreement and the concern of transfer of water from one basin to the other. The Member knows that I opposed the Garrison Diversion Project when they were holding hearings and I made a presentation in Opposition. We will ensure that we do not have species from another water basin transferred into our waters in Manitoba. Mr. Taylor: That leads very nicely into my next question. On July 27, I raised that issue about interbasin water transfers.

Even former Tory Premier Sterling Lyon objected to this kind of transfer in relation to Garrison. Will the Min ister advise what action, specific action, has he taken to prevent any transfers between water basins, given that we only get the question about the Technical Committee, the Technical Committee, the Technical Committee? We do not even know what it is all about. How about some solid, specific answers? Let us hear the answers because you are not giving them.-(Interjection)-We do not hear from you guys. (lnterjection)-You do not give it. Let us hear it. Hon.

Jack Penner (Minister of Natural Resources): lt is interesting to note that Mr. Taylor has time and time- An Honourable Member: Member for Wolseley. Mr. Penner: I am sorry-that the Member for Wolseley (Mr. Taylor) has time and time again raised or tried to raise in the public some scare tactics, as he is doing again today. There has been absolutely no discussion with us about the possibility of interbasin transfer of waters.

I should, however , indicate to you that, under the Garrison Agreement, the previous administration agreed to allow the State of North Dakota to transfer water out of the Garrison Project into the Cheyenne River to supply water to both Fargo and Grand Forks. *

(1355) Affirmative Action Program Objec tives Mr. Mark Minenko (Seven Oaks): Yesterday afternoon, in the discussions, the debates, with respect to the Estimates of the Department of Community Services, the Honourable Minister of Labour and Environment (Mr . Can nery) set out his plans and seemed to suggest a particular program for affirmative action. Will this Minister now advise this House, what are the elements of this program, and what are its objectives that he seemed to suggest yesterday in his comments? Hon.

Edward Connery (Minister of Labour): I have explained to the Members opposite that within this Government we have elevated the position responsible for affirmative action from a director to Assistant Deputy Min ister . They know that there are thr ee Deputy Min isters working with three members from the MGEA, who are working cooperatively to pursue affirmative action. The more I get into the affirmative action situation, I found out yesterday that the previous Government agreed with the MGEA that they would not allow external people to apply for bulletined jobs outside of the bottom level, the bottom third.

They prevented people in the affirmative action target group to apply for positions above the third. That is the situation that we have. Mr. Speaker, we will ensure that affirmative action is strong, and we are working very strongly towards it. We had a meeting yesterday. We are continuing to plan and it is within the personnel departments of all Ministers. Monitoring Program Mr. Mark Minenko (Seven Oaks): Mr.

Sp eaker, again it seems that any particular questions that we ask in this area lead to very non-specific answers. lt would certainly seem from the Minister's comments yesterday that they would be monitoring some sort of program. My question to the Hono urable Minister is, how does he intend to monitor this program? Hon. Edward Conner y (Mi nis ter of Labour): Monitoring is on an ongoing basis, and it has been going on and it will continue to ensure by department that affirmative action is in fact taking place.

I do have some concern over setting numbers because we should not stop at a specific level when we have affirmative action. We want to ensure that all people, but affirmative action people will have a fair opp ortunity in this Government that they did not have in the previous NDP Government. 1406

Tuesday, September 20, 1988 Mr. Min enko: Mr. Sp eaker, my final supplemental to the same Minister. He certainly seems to suggest there is some sort of program, but does not tell us what that program is, does not advise us of how he intends to monitor it. Then he adds that he will come down fairly heavy on the departments. My final supplemental is: Can the Honourable Minister advise this House what action his Government will be taking to come down "fairly heavy on them "? Mr. Connery: In the words of the federal Minister, "I will swoop down on him. " No, we are monitoring the situation very closely.

The staff is monitoring what is going on. We are talking . . . Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Connery: Affirmative action, Liberal style, has been exhibited in this House in the very recent period of time by ... . Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order , please. • (14 00) Drought Assistance Deficiency Payments Mr. Bill Uruski (l nterlake): Mr. Speak er, I ask a question of the Min ister of Agriculture (Mr. Findlay).

In view of the statements in the past that he has agreed with positions taken by the major farm organizations in Manitoba on the deficiency payment, and in view of the calls made by farm organizations that there should be an early announc ement for a deficiency payment, and in view that basically all cereal crops have now been harvested in our province and that the crop loss is pr ojected at over 30 percent, can the Min ister indicate-of course, several weeks ago, when I asked about enhancing the Crop Insurance Program, in view of that, that he now supports a deficiency payment based on a loss figure, on a bushel loss, which is very close to, almost parallel to, the crop insurance payment that he rejected several weeks ago and has been put forward by Manitoba farm organ izations, can he tell us whether farmers have to wait for this announcement till a federal election is called like the one in '86 when they waited till the Saskatchewan election was called?

Hon. Glen Fim:llay (Mini ster of Agriculture): In response to the Member's question, I would have to assume that he is referring to the potential drought payment by the federal Government which has been projected at $1. 3 billion, which, translated into what might come to Manito ba, could be $200 million to $300 million, and it will be targeted to the drought affected areas. Beyond that, it is not my prero gative to tip the hat of what the federal Government is planning in terms of a particular type of program. Mr.

Uruski: Is the Minister now confirming that the payments will be made on the basis of crop losses in the same way as he rejected a suggestion made by myself several weeks ago? Mr. Findlay: No. free Trade Agreement Impact food Processing Industry Mr. Bill Uruski (lnterlake): On another question.

In view of the recent statements made by food processors that Canada's food processing industry is in jeopardy as a result of the Mulroney-Reagan economic union, can this Min ister assure the workers in Portage and in Carberry and those in the province that when these plans require major upgrading that those jobs will remain this province? Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): I would like to inform you and the House that numerous food processing companies are looking at Manitoba as a place to locate in the coming year. At this point, it is too premature to say how many jobs will be created.

I can guarantee him that many companies are looking and many hundr eds of jobs could be created in the Province of Manitoba for processing agricultur al products in the Province of Manitoba. I would like to further remind him that in a survey done in western Canada, some 55 percent of the farmers of western Canada support the Free Trade Agreement and 23 percent are opposed. That is almost thr ee to one in favour of the agreement. Nickel Prices Mr. Harold Gil leshammer (Minn edosa): I would like direct a question to the Mini ster of Finance (Mr . Man ness). I have my third question.

Could you clarify the information presented earlier on the price of nickel? Mr. Speaker: Ord er, please. Mr. Uruski: Usually a Member is afforded a question and two supp lementaries. I had two questions. Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. I thought the Honour able Member had a question and two suppleme ntaries. Order, please. I have recognized the Honourable Member for Minnedosa. Hon. Clayton Manness (Mini ster of Finance): I am happy that my colleague, the Member for Minnedosa (Mr. Gilleshammer), has posed the question asking for greater clarity with respect to nickel prices.

At least, we have had one Member opposite candidly admit he knew nothing about some technical aspect. That is the honesty I appr eciate. The Leader of the Opposition (Mrs. Carstairs), when she brought in a

preamble of her question with respect to the price of nickel, she indicated that the pr ice of nickel was $4 Canada, or something, today. I am told that it is $5.35 U.S., which is equivalent to, in Canadian dollars, $6.50. Again, the Liberal computer has done either a wrong conversion, and I point out that if you want to be taken credibly in this House, you bring forward credible facts. 1407

Tuesday, September 20, 1988 M PlC Kopstein Report Release Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge): My question is to the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation (Mr. Cummings). Last March, the NDP Government appointed Judge Robert Kopstein to head an inquiry into the operations of the corporation. The original deadline was due on the 30th, which came and went without receipt of the report. I am glad Members opposite are agreeing with my statement. Perhaps we will get an answer from the Minister. The Minister then informed the House that the report was to be expected by August 15. lt was not.

My question is very simple. Has the Minister yet received a copy of the Kopstein Report, and when will he table it in this House? Hon . Glen Cummin gs (M inister responsible for Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation): I am pleased to inform the House that this long-awaited question can now be answered positiv ely. I have received the report from the judge, and it is going to printing, and as soon as it can, be printed and translated. I would like to inform the House and the members of the public, who might wonder what the requirements are, that at least the executive

summary will have to be translated prior to the tabling and the presentation of the report. As soon as that is done, it will be tabled. * (1410 ) Kopstein Report Budget Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge): With a supple mentary question to the Minister. We are pleased that the long awaited report is here because we know that very important de cisions are dependent on how th e Government responds to the recommendations in the report. Since the report was so long in the making, it gives arise to fears that there may have been cost overruns.

Can the Minister report to the House what the Budget was allocated to the report, and how much has been spent? Hon . Glen Cummin gs (M in ister responsible for Manit oba Public Insurance Corporation): I indicated previously that we wanted the report to stay under $600,000 .00. We have not received all of the documentation of cost, but I believe that it will be well under that number. Mr. Carr: The mention of a figure is the first time we have heard it in this House. CIEO Replacement Mr.

James Carr (Fort Rouge): My final supplem entary to the Minister is that in addition to the uncertainty it is difficult to ask a question with the chirping of the First Minister (Mr. Filmon). In addition to the uncertainty surrounding policy decisions at the corporation, they have not had a chief executive officer for some many months now. I wonder if the Min ister can inform the House when he intends to make the announcement of a new chief executive officer for the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation. Hon .

Glen Cummings (Minis ter responsible for Man itoba Public Insurance Corporation): As soon as we have an announ cement, I will inform the House. European Fur labelling Policy Impact Fur Industry Mr. Elijah Harper (Rupertsland): My question is to the First Min ister (Mr. Filmon). Last week the European Parliament passed a resolution supporting the labelling of all imported fur products with a notice that the animals may have been caught on a leghold trap. Considering th at this label ling wou ld have a devas tating impact on northern Native communities, will the First Min ister (Mr.

Filmon) call on the Prime Minister of Canada and ask him to exert full authority against this proposal? Hon . Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speak er, we, on this side of the House, are certainly concerned about the potential effects of European decisions with respect to labelling of our fur products. That is a matter that my Minister of Natural Resources (Mr . Penner) has been in discussion with, with his counterparts.

In fact, they have had meetings and expressed their concern and expr essed their opposition to this type of policy and are working in concert so that all of the provinces across the country, in concert with the federal Government, can work cooperatively to try and fight this sort of policy which we agree can be detrimental to the fur producers of Manitoba and Canada. Indigenous Survival International Funding l\ll r.

Elijah Harper (Rupertsland): During our term, we were considering funding an organization known as Ind igenous Su rvival In ternational, which is an organization to pr omote tr aditional lifestyles of indi genous people to promote trapping, fishing, gathering, and also be in volved in resource management. These countries include U.S .• Canada, Greenland, Sweden and Norw ay. At that time, we were considering funding prop osals for this organization. Will the First Minister (Mr. Filmon) consider funding this organization? My information is that the Treasury Board had rejected this request as a non-essential item.

Hon. Gary filmon (Premier): lt seems as though these days, every time some organization comes forward requesting funding of the Government, they come forward with the suggestion that the pr evious Go vernment was considering funding, or that the previous Government had given them a verbal authority, or that the previous Government has set aside funds for them. We find out that, in fact, these matters had not been considered by Treasury Board, these matters 1408

Tuesday, September 20, 1988 had not been considered by Cabinet. They were only considered in the minds of the Members oppo site, and now that they are in Opposition, they are considering that they might have considered funding them. So, Mr. Speaker , I have not been ap proached with respect to that matter. If there is information within the files of Government on that subject, I will have to look into it. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Rupertsland, with a final suppl ementary question. Mr. Harper: Mr. Sp eaker, I have made numerous requests to meet with the new Minister of Native Affairs (Mr.

Downey) on this matter. Will the Premier (Mr. Filmon) at least provide some assistance to the Manitoba Native committees and to the aboriginal trappers so that their voice can be heard in the European Parliament? Mr.

Filmon: Our Government has committed, recent ly, funding for the Assembly of Ch iefs of Mani toba, $325,000; our Government has committed almost $1.5 million funding to the Justice Inqu iry of Aboriginals in the Justice System; our Government has committed funding for the Northern Community Councils; our Government has committed funding for many different organizations, including Native organizations. We are certainly aware of needs in trying to respond as best as we can within the limited financial capability that we have.

Members opposite are constantly asking questions; on the one hand, what are we doing to control the financial situation of the province, or what are we doing to ensure that our credit rating is maintained? The Leader of the Opposition (Mrs. Carstairs) wanted to find out whether or not we were able to get a handle on cost control in this province; and, on the other hand, they want us to give money to every single possible caus e-i ncrease expenditur es here, inc rease expenditu res there.

I expect that kind of dual appr oach from the Liberals to try and have it both ways; but surely the Member for Rupertsland, who has been in Government, knows that there is not enough money to pay for every single thing that they might have as a wish list. Hon. James Downey (Minister of Native Affairs): On a point of order, Mr. Speak er. Mr. Speaker: The Honour able Min ister of Northern Affairs, on a point of order. Mr. Downey: Mr.

Speaker , I would like to bring to the attention of the Memb er, who put on the record that there were req uests to meet with me by Na tive organizations, that that is not factual, that I have not had requests. If they had come forward, I would appreciate if the Minister, acting on behalf of his people, the Na tive community of this country, had brought it directly to my attention, which he did not have the courtesy to do. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member does not have a point of order. Child and Family Services layoffs Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Ellice will have time for one final question. Ms.

Avis Gray (EIIice): Mr. Speaker , I was pleased to note that the Minister of Community Services (Mrs. Oleson) has changed her mind about the cuts to the Community Services Prevention Grants and has in fact taken our advice and reinstated support for much needed programs. Some two weeks ago, the Minister asked the Child and Family Services Agencies to inform her department of the potential effect on services of the reduced budget she has announced. My question is for the Min ister of Community Services (Mrs. Oleson).

Has her department received information from several of the Child and Family Services Agencies that the budget she has announc ed could result in the layoff of up to 16 child welfare staff in this fiscal year? Hon. Charlotte Oleson (M inister of Commun ity Services): With regard to the first part of the question, it was not a case of reinstating outreach programs. They were there all the time. So I do not want any misrepresentation of that. With regard to th e Child and Family Services Agencies, I have been getting considerable feedback from those agencies on the problems that they are encountering.

The director has been meeting with each one of the agencies individually and assessing exactly what the financial problems are. That will be analyzed and we will have to consider it from there. Mr. Speaker: The time for oral questions has expired. NON- POliTICAl STATEMENT S Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Mi nister of Cult ure, Heritage and Recreation): Might I have leave to make a non political statement? Mr. Speaker: Does the Honour able Minister have leave? (Agreed) Mrs.

Mitchels on: As eo-Chair of the MGEA 1988 All Charities Campaign, I would like to inform Me mbers of the House that the campaign was officially kicked off today at the Convention Centre with staff from all Government departments atten ding. An Honourable Member: Hear, Hear! Mrs. Mi tchelson: During the past two de cades, Manitoba's Government empl oyees have shown their commitment to supporting the needs of others through the All Charit ies Campaign thr ough out Ma ni toba, including Beausejour, Brandon, Portage, The Pas, and Thompson. The funds raised support a variety of community-based organizations.

The campaign will conclude September 30. I know that my colleagues in this House will join me in exten ding congratulations to the committees who 1409

Tuesday, September 20, 1988 are already working so hard, and offer our sincere hope that their goal will be reached. I further wish, Mr. Speaker , to thank you and my colleagues for atten ding the Mad Hatter's Tea Party today and participating in the hat fashion show. I close with a special thank you to His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor of Manitoba for his excellent taste and commendable performance in awarding the three first-place prizes to those participants most deserving. Thank you. * (14 20) Mr. Gary Doer (leader of the Second Opposition): I would like to join the Min ister in a non-political statement.

Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Member have leave? (Agreed) Mr. Doer: As the former Chair of this committee, the All Charities Committee, I want to cong ratulate the Government for keeping the All Charities Campaign and being actively involved in it. I can understand from the Member for Arthur's (Mr.

Downey) perspective why they had a Mad Hatter's theme this year, but I think the important fact is, with the multiple choice idea of the All Charities Campaign, the cooperation between emp loyers and empl oyees and the ability for people also to contribute money in their own communities, I think is the tremendous advantage of the All Charities Campaign. We look forward to all of us contributing on a 10 0-percent basis in all of our departments and our areas and wish the Minister all the best of luck with it. Ms. Judy Wasylycia-leis (St. Johns): I would ask leave of the House to make a non-political statement. Mr.

Speaker: Does the Honour able Member for St. Johns have leave? (Agreed) Ms. Wasylycia-leis: Thank you, Mr. Sp eaker. I think it is most timely with a former Member of our House in our midst today-in fact, the former Member for my constituency, St. Johns-it would be timely and very appropri ate for us to take a moment to pay tribute to the Very Reverend Don Malinowski for receiving a very prestigious award, the Order of Canada.

Many in this House will know that Father Don received this very prestigious award for his very important work on behalf of Polish Canadians and organizing aid for Poland following the imposition of martial law in the early 1980s. He was responsible for organizing a relief fund, sending medicine and food and so on to hospitals in Poland, and he has been very active on behalf of Polish Canadians here in Manitoba. Finally, of course, we know he has served the people of Manitoba for 17 years as a Member of the Legislature.

So on behalf of all Members of this House, I extend our heartfelt congratulations to the Very Reverend Don Malinowski on receiving the Order of Canada and wish him well in his new home and life in Comox Valley. Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): If I may have leave for just one more non-political statement. Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable First Minister have leave? (Agreed) Mr.

Filmon: I want to, on behalf of all Members of the Legislature, congratulate the people at CFB, Portage la Prairie, for the tremendous show that they put on on the weeken d-the Manitoba Air Show '88, which provided thrilling entertainment for 35,000 Manitobans and visitors on Saturday, and another 18 ,000, despite inclement weather, on Sunday. lt gave an opportunity for Canada's Air Force to display the skill and the expertise that they have deve loped as part of their training and technology development here in this country.

Many of those who participated in the air show have been trained at one of the two bases in Manitoba. The show, of course, featured pilots from both Canada and the United States, and ground crew from both these countries as well as from the United Kingdom. On behalf of all Members of the Legislature, I extend to the members of Canadian Forces Base, Portage la Prairie, congratulations for a job well done. * (14 30) ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): I move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Man ness), that Mr.

Sp eaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. By leave, the Department of Community Services will be in the Chamber and that will be the only committee today. MOT ION presented and carried and the Ho use resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be gr anted to Her Ma jest y, with the Honourable Member for Minnedosa (Mr. Gilleshammer) in the Chair for the Department of Community Services. COMMI TTEE OF SUPPlY SUPPLY-COMMU NITY SERVICES Mr.

Chairman, Harold Gill eshammer: The committee will come to order on Community Services. Item 1 .(

g) Human Resources Services, (1 ) Salaries, $4 17 ,900.00. Shall the item pass? Hon. Charlo tte Oleson (Mini ster of Community Services): I have some questions that were raised yesterday and I just thought, before we got started, would give the answers to them. Also, I should apologize to the Member for Fort Rouge (Mr. Carr) in questioning about training programs and who had taken advantage of training. I inadvertently said the Member for Fort Rouge (Mr. Carr) and it was the Member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock) who had the training. So this is the problem 1410

Tuesday, September 20, 1988 you get into when you cannot use names and you cannot remember the name of the constituency. I do apologize. There was a question asked about office space for Winnipeg North Region, 1400 Henderson Highway. The associated costs are: total square footage-4,700 ; cost per square foot-$4 .98; total annual cost-$23,400 .00. This is a five-year lease with the City of Winnipeg which terminates March 31, 1989. There was a question asked concerning Affirmative Action appointments since May 9, 1988. The total appointments, 42. Out of the 42, 4 were Natives representing 9.52 percent .

The Winnipeg South Advisory Group, a question was asked regarding that. The Winnipeg South Advisory Group was designed to act as a consultative body on affirmative action to the regional director of the Winnipeg South Region. As a pilot initiative, the regional director, in discussion with the departmental Affirmative Act ion coordinator and the Central Affirmative Action Committee , initiated the group to consult and advise on matte rs relevant to the regional implementation of affirmativ e action. Their input to the matters pertaining to the region is strictly advisory .

The members of Winnipeg South Regional Committee are Miss Tanis Campbell, executive director, Fort Garry Women 's Resource Centre; Miss Nancy Whiteway, board member, Society for Manitobans with Disabilities; Miss Evelyn Webster , ex-staff member, Ma Mawi Wi Chi ltata ; and Mr. Winston Lane, past member of various organizations involved with visible minority issues. They were invited to participate in the advisory group by the regional director of the Winnipeg South Region.

Their selection was based on consultation and advice from members of the Human Rights Commission and from organizations and agencies representing and involved with various target groups in the community . Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St. Johns): Mr. Chairperson, just a couple of questions on an area that the Member for Arthur (Mr. Downey) wondered why we did not have any such questions on. He mentioned why I did not have any questions on day care . I do have some questions on day care that fit under human resources actually .

The first is is there a general policy of the department for employees with respect to provision of day care arrangements , child care arrangements, when weekend conferences are held or evening sessions held, or training sessions are organized by the department. Is there a policy for the department in circumstances of that nature? Mrs. Oleson: Mr. Chairman, no there is not a policy and there was not one under the former Government I might add. One thing that I have been enquiring about, because of a question or a letter that I received, is hoping to provide child care.

That does not of course involve Government employees , but for the Meech Lake hearings, we are trying to arrange some type of child care for people that want to be involved in those hearings. As far as an overall policy for staff, no. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Has any consideration been given to putting together a policy around the provision of 1411 day care, child care services for employees to meet their child care needs on weekends or evenings when conferences and training sessions are held? I appreciate the fact that there may not have been a policy in place in the pas t.

I think it is one of those issues that is like the gender-neutral question , it is a small step that encourages women's participation , encourages advancement through the Civil Service ranks by those who have not been fully represented. I am wondering if any thought has been given to such a policy and if any sort of time table has been set out by the Minister? •

(1440) Mrs. Oleson: My staff indicate that there have been no requests for that type of service. The Member will recall that there really are not that many of the conferences and seminars that are held over the weekend . It is something that I appreciate her raising . It is something that might be looked at in the future . If there were conferences that did go over a weekend period , it is something I can take up with personnel for the future . Ms.

Wasylycia-Leis: I certainly appreciate the Minister's commitment to look into this whole area because , as we all know , often no request is simply a result of the fact that there is an expectation that such services are not available. I think if we took the initiative in such areas, we probably would make quicker advances . Related to the child care issue , has there been any survey of personnel within the department or any indication from employees in the department about full time child care requirements during the work week on a full-time basis? Mrs.

Oleson: There has been no survey within this department but there has been in the employees ' newspaper a survey to Government personnel in that way. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Has a significant demand for increased child care opportunities for employees within the Civil Service, either within this department or generally, been demonstrated? Mrs. Oleson: The survey was taken about two years ago, I am told. It did indicate some interest but no more than the interest in the general public for a need for child care . There is, I believe , one child care facility for Government employees that is presently ongoing .

We would have to look at it if there was a significant number that came forward to request it. We would certainly have to take a look at it. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Could the Minister indicate what the waiting list for that workplace day care is? Mrs. Oleson: I would have to take that as notice. could provide the Member with that information when we get to the child care line. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: I would appreciate information on that related to that whole issue of assisting employees

Tuesday, September 20, 1988 with meeting child care needs. Although the Min ister does not have the waiting list figures at her fingertips, would she ack nowledge that the req uest by the Provincial Government Employees' Day Care for an expansion of day care is an indication of demand within the public sector for workplace day care? Mrs. Oleson: There is a waiting list at most centres, but I could give the specific information to the Member later. Ms.

Wasylycia-Leis: I appreciate information on this area and on child care needs within the Civil Service, and I would like to know how that fits into the Min ister's plans that she has annou nced back on Septem ber 6 for mee ting the needs for child care within th e workplace, and again wondering whether or not it would make good sense for Government to be setting an example and addressing the needs of day care in the workplace starting with the Civil Service. Would she have any comments or policies with respect to that? Mrs.

Oleson: We have indicated that one of the initiatives we wou ld be inte rested in tak ing is to encourage workplace day care. The Mem ber is quite right, this would set an example and has already with the one that is presently in place. There is space allocated in the Weir Centre and we are considering that to see what we can do there. So yes, workplace day care not just in Government emp loyees but in other private sector also is being looked at. Ms.

Wasylycia-Leis: With respect to that space in the Weir Building, the Minister has indicated she is looking into the funding of that-1 think she said the funding of that space -and the expansion of the Provincial Government Employees' Day Care. Can she indicate now whether or not she is prepared to fund that out of the 320 spaces, I believe, set aside for this year or out of, I think it is, the $10 0, 000 earmarked for workplace day care? Mrs. Oleson: T hat is being considered in conjunction with the Minister of Government Services (Mr.

Driedger), and it will depend on the funding to see if we can put that into place soon. The whole thing is still being considered, I might say, but there is a possibility that would be put in, perhaps not right away but in the near future. But as I say, it is still under consideration with the Minister of Government Services. Ms.

Wasylycia-Leis: Is it not the case that when that building, the Weir Building, was planned and designed and constructed, th at it was done so with the consideration for a day care, an expansion of the provincial Government emplo yees' existing day care, and if that is the case and space has been set aside, is not the remaining outstanding question one of funding of those spaces and does that not fall entirely within the responsibility of the Minister of Community Services (Mrs. Oleson)? Mrs.

Oleson: The building was designed with the possibility of having child care spaces, but the capital costs were not put into this budget, I understand. I 1412 would have to discuss it further, of course, with the Minister of Government Services (Mr. Driedger), but as I had indicated before, it is under consideration, and it is quite a possibility if the space has been allocated for that, that it would be used for that, but no final decision has been made on it. Ms.

Wasylycia-Leis: Given the Minister's statements about expansion of workpla ce day care and meeting the needs of parents and their child care needs within the workplace, is the Min ister prepared to give us any assurances that she will be actively pursuing whatever it takes to fund this centre, to encourage her colleague, the Minister of Community Services (Mrs. Oleson) to move on this project? How strongly does she feel about this proposal, and how does it fit into her scheme of things when it comes to meeting the child care needs of the province? Mrs.

Oleson: As I have indicated to the Mem ber, that one of our interests is workplace child care, and so we would have to look at the needs of other work places as well. There have been some employers who have contacted my department and asking ab out the possibilities, so these will have to all be looked at before final decisions can be made. •

(1450) Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Just a couple more questions on this whole area, since I think when we are dealing with human resources and dealing with the systemic barriers, and systemic discrimination and the lack of equal participation in all levels, then one of the key issues that I think we all agree on that must be dealt with is child care. I do not think there is any dispute about the fact that child care arrangements in the work place, at or near the workpla ce, can be a real benefit to the parents and encouragement to women entering the labour force, or re-entering the labour force.

I am concerned that the comments to date by the Min ister with respect to the expansion of the one and only workplace day care in the entire Civil Service, in an entire workplace of 18,000 employees, is not being given what I would consider the kind of serious attention it requ ires based on the work that has gone into this project to date. lt is certainly my understanding that the previous administration had worked quite closely with the board of that day care, that the re were coordinated efforts to make the best use of new buildings, the obvious one being the building that the present Government has chosen to name, the Weir Building.

My question to the Minister of Community Services (M rs. Ole son): is she prepared to carry out th e commitment that was put in place to expand work place day care in the Civil Service, to put her money where her mouth is when it comes to her policy statement of September 6, and give some assurances to Mem bers of this House, but also to the entire Civil Service community that this project will be supported and that the Minister will find a way to carry through with commitments made earlier and achieve a reduction in the waiting list that is very long and has been the re for some time.

Tuesday, September 20, 1988 Mrs. Oleson: Yes, I will indicate again to the Member that this is being actively considered . One thing that we should be aware of, though, is that a great many parents want to have their day care centre close to their home , and that is one thing that has to be considered . The current provincial day care was built by the MGEA without capital fu nd s from the Government, so this is a little different venture, this one that we are talking about here in the Weir Building. Anyway , I will indicate to the Member , as I did before, that is under active consideration.

We have to look at the needs of all the people who come to us requesting spaces and consider how many people really want to use the one in the downtown area, because there are some centres in the downtown area. I do not have the figures in front of me of what sort of waiting lists they have, but we would want to be sure . I would imagine, before that was built by the Government-of which the Member was a member - I am sure that they did do some survey of needs in the area. We will take that into consideration, too . I will assure her again that we are actively considering it. Ms.

Wasylycia-Leis: Yes, it would certainly be my understanding as well that the allocation of the some 500 to 700 new spaces committed by the previous admini stration was based on solid analysis and survey work and an understanding of the priorities in the community as a whole and , in that scheme of things , made a sum commitment to try to see an expansion of this most successful workplace day care carried through, carried forward .

My question to the Minister is, if she discovers that the waiting list at this day care is sufficiently long enough, if it weighs high in the overall scheme of things with respect to child care needs , is she prepared to put on hold her new proposal of supporting this floating subsidy concept, which has yet to be tried and tested, and put that money for the time being in the direction of meeting needs that have been identified , or will be identified , in her survey of priorities and needs? Mrs. Oleson: The Member said that it has not been tried and tested .

Perhaps it would be wise for us to allow that to take place , and test it, if that is what she is referring to. Indicat ions that I have are that was a very necessary thing to do, people were asking for. I do not think that it would be wise to reverse the decision immediately and change our direction in the middle of the road here . The portable subsidies , if you would want to call them that, I think should be allowed to rema in. I tol d the Member before , two or three or fou r times this afternoon , that we are actively considering the workplace day care that she was referring to . Ms.

Wasylycia-Leis: Yes, to follow the Minister 's own advice and direction , which is not to change course in the middle of a plan of action and not to ignore obvious need and demonstra ted ways of meeting that need to embark on a new course of action, following that logic , which I certa inly accept, would she not be prepared to refer this notion of the floating subsidy , this flexible subsidy, to the task force which she says in her own press release was set up to study the subsidies, the funding , the fees, the whole range of funding options with respect to day care?

I would think that something like this concept of a floating subsidy would fit within that parameter of a funding option with respect to day care.

Would she not be prepared to just put this notion on hold, simply refer it to the task force and in the meantime carry through with commitments made of the spaces in the non-profit sector that have been identified as urgent and pressing , existing non-profit centres that have the capacity to expand and have requested the funding to expand, would she agree just to simply put on hold , to have a moratorium on this notion until the task force has reported ; and , i n the meant ime, fund some of those non-profit centres with long waiting lists and with long standing requests before the Government of Manitoba so that they can begin to meet some need and they can act quickly on a tried-and-tested basis to meet that need?

Mrs. Oleson: Mr. Chairman , what we have done is introduced more flexibility and choice into the child care system to build on what was there before and add to it. I think that we have done the right thing . We have given people more choice in where they can acquire the ir child care . They can choose to go to centres that are closer to their home . I do not see any reason to backtrack, which would be what it would be doing on that commitment that was made .

As a result of the announcements that I made recently with regard to child care, 500 more children will receive subsidies that were not receiving them before . I think this is a good move. This gives flexibility and choice, and that is what people were asking for. *

(1500) Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: My question to the Minister again is given that she has before her a number of requests that , if responded to by her department , by the Government of Manitoba, would in fact go considerable distance to providing the flexibility and the choice that she is talking about-by way of example , I refer again to a workplace, a good example of a workplace day care with a long waiting list with a physical arrangement ready to go if there is a will behind it. We have examples of infant care certainly in my community in non-profit centres waiting to be funded.

We have examples of high risk care waiting to be funded . We have examples of night care waiting to be funded. We have examples of waiting lists in every community of this province waiting to be funded. We have examples of every type of care waiting to be funded in every community of this province.

Given that situation, is the Minister not prepared to, for the time being, fund those centres that have capacity to expand now, those non-profit centres that have been waiting for some time to either expand their cur rent type of care or to embark on a new type of care such as infant or night care instead of embarking on a course of action that does not necessarily provide choice and flexibility that the Minister has yet to indicate to us will provide choice and flexibility given the situation at hand? 1413

Tuesday, September 20, 1988 Wou ld she simply put on hold her Govern ment's proposal of this floating subsidy concept and meet the commitments of the 500 to 700 spaces that had been previously made, and part of the $7 million budget, and let us have true dialogue, open dialogue, on this question of the floating subsidy and the opening up of Government funds to private for profit child care centres? Mrs. Oleson: The whole subject of subsidies certainly can be discussed with the task force. There is nothing to prevent that. As I have said before, we have pr ovided both subsidies that could be portable.

We have provided for ·n ew spaces to be funded. We have kept commitments that the previous Government had committed to for funding centres. Some of the centres, we will be allowing them to expand to a few more spaces so that they become viable. But we cannot answer all the needs in one budget. With an increase of 25 percent to a child care budget is really a very, very substantial increase. But it is impossible to meet all the needs. We know that there are people waiting on waiting lists. T hose waiting lists existed long before we came into office.

We are addressing those needs, but they cannot be all done at once. Ms. Wasylycia-leis: With a final question on this matter, let the record be clear, I am certainly under no allusions that all the needs in the province with respect to day care and child care can be met in one budget.

I am simply asking the Min ister if she would consider going some distance to meet those needs by funding existing long-standing requests for additional spaces, for new spaces, in a tried and tested system instead of embarking on a new direction, on a whole new approach to child care that is daily becoming apparent to us, will be difficult to administer, that will be an administrative nightmare.

Could she at least consider putting that on hold until it gets sorted through and until there has been proper dialogue through the task force and simply commit herself to redirecting those same funds that will go, unless we can find away to stop it, into this unknown, untested fuzzy concept of a floating subsidy of a voucher system or a flexible subsidy of whatever it is? We are still not sure.

Would she simply just put that on hold, go through the decent process of consultation around it and meet the needs starting with the demonstrated need of employees within her own department and within the 18, 000 member Civil Service? Mrs. Oleson: I do not know how the Member can stand there and talk about this brand new direction and how fuzzy and all these things she was saying about it. Most provinces in Canada have a similar system for giving subsidies to children in private centres. lt is not really breaking new ground, and it is not fuzzy in how it is to be done. She refers to a voucher system.

That is not the case. The payments will be made exactly the way in which they were made un der her Go vernment to other subsidies, to children in public centres, that the same mechanism is in place. The licensing is the same, the regulations are the same. We only would allow a subsidy to a licensed centre. So I do not know why the Member continues to say that it is fuzzy and whatever else she is saying about it, breaking new ground is another indication she gave, because it is not totally new.

Other provinces do this, and it is one way we felt in which we could introduce flexibility and choice into the system which was not there before. lt is an addition to the system that was in place, and we think that was the way to go. I think the Member should allow this some time to happen, and I am sure she will agree in the future, or she may not ever agree because she may not want to, but I am sure she will have to take a look at it in the future, analyze it, and I am sure she will see that it works. Ms. Wasylycia-leis: A final question on this matter.

First of all, for the record, I think it should be noted that most provinces are moving away from any kind of notion of funding of private for profit centres. For any jurisdiction that was in the middle of that kind of funding arrangement, they are clearly having second thoughts and moving quite in the opposite direction. Most studies, as I have said before, and most experts in the field have made similar recommendations.

I need only refer to a well-noted Member of the Member's own Party, political Party, and that is Senator Spivak's views on the question of funding of day care and, indeed, the entire Senate Committee that has studied child care concluded that it was not in the best interest of quality child care, nor the best use of taxpayers' money to put Government funds in the direction of pr ofit pr ivate child care cent res, or child care arrangements.

With respect to the Minister's suggestion that this concept is not new, I think, as I have just said, it is new from the point of view of the direction that other jurisdictions are going in, and if it is looked at from the point of view of a floating subsidy, whatever that is, we have yet to get the details, it would appear to be new in terms of the tried and tested app roach of funding child care centres. My final, final question to the Minister of Community Services (Mrs. Oleson) on this matter is not to pursue this debate about what is workable and not workable, and likely to succeed or not to succeed.

I will certainly be watching this entire process very carefully, given what would appear to be a commencement date to this new subsidy program of October 2 by all those out in the field. My question is will the Minister simply agree to have this matter considered by the task force, reviewed by the task force, seek the opinions of parents and board members, and providers and users of child care with respect to this new concept before implementing it? That is all I am asking the Minister.

Would she merely put this on hold until ample time has been set aside for studying it, for seeking the views of Manitob ans around it, and then let us have the debate? Let us have a serious and open intelligent debate over this concept, over this dramatic change in day care policy in the province, over this completely new 1414

Tuesday, September 20, 1988 approach to funding of child care in the Province of Manitoba, and in the meantime use the resources that she has set aside for meeting this new concept by redirecting those funds to where they were originally slated to go, and that was to go some ways to meeting the needs of child care in the Province of Manitoba . That is simply my request, not to debate the issue , not to develop polarized positions around it, but to have that full and open dialogue before proceeding . *

(1510) Mrs. Oleson: Mr. Chairman, as I had indicated before , all matters concerning child care in the province can be taken and will be taken to the task force by people who are interest ed . I am sure the task force members are looking forward to talking to a great many people and getting input. This subject will be presented to them and they will be reporting. Mr. Chairman: On item 1.(g)

(1) Salaries , shall the item pass?-pass . Ms. Avis Gray (Ellice): In light of our discussions yesterday on affirmative action and having had an opportunity to look at Hansard , I do have a few more questions and some are clarification ; some are new area s. I was wondering if the Minister of Community Services could tell us - my understanding is that one of the steps for the implementation of the Affirmative Action Program would be that departments would conduct a work force analysis . Could she indicate if a work force analysis has been done in her department? Mrs. Oleson: Yes, it has . Ms. Gray: Mr.

Chairperson , could the Minister indicate to us what the results of that work force analys is were ? Mrs. Oleson: The analysis is rather long. Would the Member accept a

summary that we could provide later? Ms. Gray: Mr. Chairperson , yes, I would accept a

summary that would be tabled. I am wondering if the Minister then could indicate to us within this work force analysis, was there any analysis of staff who are already within the Department of Community Ser vices as to the promot ional opportunities that had been afford ed to them or how many of the target group members have been promoted within the department? Mrs. Oleson: This report or analysis is about two years old . At that point in time , of 199 appointments , 88 were female , maki ng a total of 44.2 percent . Ms.

Gray: Could the Minister indicate , of those 88 female appointments , were those appointments to positions at a higher level than what the individuals were currently at? Mrs. Oleson: They were appointments to female under represented classifications. Ms. Gray: Mr. Chairperson, could the Minister clarify were those figures then also including entry level positions? 1415 Mrs. Oleson: Yes, they were. Ms.

Gray: Does the Minister have data then to indicat e how many of those 88 appointments to under represented positions by females , how many positions within the Civil Service of current civil servants were promotions , as opposed to not people into the Civil Serv ice? Does she have that information? Mrs. Oleson: The information would be difficult to track in this report because it is two years old, but we could attempt to get more current information for the Member if she wishes it. Ms.

Gray: I am wondering if the Minister could indicate to us, does her department have information or can she comment on the suggestion that within the last few years of the supposed implementation of the Aff irmation Action Program that in fact very few of target group members , women and other groups, have been promoted. In fact , the statistics would indicate there has been basically no significant increase of target group members promoted within the Civil Service. Does she have a comment or does she have any information on that? Mrs. Oleson: Mr.

Chairman, I can not speak for the entire Civil Service , just for this department . If the Member wishes to take it up with the Civil Service Estimate s then that would be more appropriate for the whole picture. I will try to get her tha t info rmation for this department. Ms. Gray: Yesterday we were asking the Minister for information on the number of positions that had been identified as affirmativ e action positions .

Could the Minister indicate to us if her department has set, or did she indicate yesterday - I can not remember from all the information-has her department set specific targets for each identified affirmative action target group? Mrs. Oleson: All positions are targeted . Ms. Gray: The Minister has indicated that positions are targeted . Could she explain to us-the Minister of Labour (Mr. Connery) has indicated in this House a number of times tha t he does not believe in target setting-what is her under standing of target-setting, and is it a part of the Affi rmative Action Program or is it not? Mrs.

Oleson: The targets are set for the whole department , not each separate group. But I indicated yesterday , when answering some of these questions , that the target for our department is to reflect the same sort of percentages that occur within the general population. Ms. Gray: The Minister has indicated that the targ ets within her department, her department would want that to reflect percentages with the general population . Could the Minister then indicate to us how her department reconciles that information , given that the Minister of Labour and responsible for the Civil Service

Tuesday, September 20, 1988 Commission (Mr. Con nery), who also is responsible for the overall affirmative action policy, does not agree with target-setting? Mrs. Oleson: In this department at least, every position is considered a target position so that when any hiring is done the affirmative action consideration is taken. * (15 20) Ms. Gray: Could we have assurances from this Minister of Community Services (Mrs.

Oleson), given that within her department they are certainly looking at target setting as part of the implementation of the Affirmative Action Program, could she assure us that she will take this information back to the Minister responsible for the Civil Service Commission (Mr . Connery) and clarify this glaring discrepancy? Mrs. Oleson: I think th ere may be some misunderstanding. We do not set a quota system but we do, as each position comes up, consider the affirmative action of that position. I am getting tangled up here in my words.

But yes, I will be discussing these matters with the Min ister in charge of the Civil Service Commis sion (Mr . Connery) and of cou rse, in the reporting role that I will have as Minister to him, will be indicating to him what state we are at in our department. In the system that he has set up of reporting, all these matters will come to his attention. Ms. Gray: Could the Minister indicate to us as well, in regard to the Affirmative Action Program within her department, is one of the objectives of that program to have special emphasis on movement of staff within the department, movement of internal staff?

Is that a priority in the implementation of the program? Mrs. Oleson: That is one of the priorities, yes. Ms. Gray: Could the Minister indicate to us how that priority ties in with the entry of individuals into the Civil Service? I guess, perhaps to rephrase my question, if internal movement within the Civil Service is a priority, is there more of a move to have positions first of all bulletined within the Civil Services, as opposed to bulletined outside of the Civil Service? Mrs.

Oleson: We attempt to do both, by bulletining within to allow people to move forward, and we also attempt to bring new candidates into the system. But it is very important that the people within the system get a chance to advance within it. Ms. Gray: Could the Min ister indicate to us, when a position becomes vacant, how is the determination made as to whether that position will be bulletined within the Civil Service, an internal bulletin, or will be bulletined outside of the Civil Service as well? Mrs. Oleson: The manager, in consultation with the personnel administrator, would make the decision. Ms.

Gray: Could the Minister indicate if there is a par ticular cr iteria tha t th ey use in making th at determination? Mrs. Oleson: Yes, the criteria is developed by the Civil Service Commission. Ms. Gray: Could the Minister indicate for us today what that criteria is? Mrs. Oleson: The information is rather long in detail but it could be tabled for the Member's information, if she wishes it. Ms. Gray: Yes, we would appreciate that information to be tabled. The Min ister of Community Services (Mrs.

Oleson) has indicated that of course it is important to promote members within the Civil Service and within her own department, and I certainly agree with the Min ister of Commun ity Services on that point. I think it is very, very important that within any organization, whether it be priv ate or public or whether it be Government, we do make an effort to look after our emplo yees and to afford them opportunities within the Civil Service, and I certainly appreciate her comments.

I am wondering if the Minister of Community Services could indicate to us the again discrepancy with her comments and the comments by the Minister of Labour (Mr . Con nery), who again earlier today seemed to be qui te agi tated by th e fact th at the previous administration was limiting jobs outside the Civil Service and was promoting people from within. Could she explain this discrepancy in the two thoughts? Mrs. Oleson: I am accountable for my department and, as I have indicated, each position is looked at with regard to affirmative action. Ms.

Gray: The Min ister has indicated that she is accountable for her department and obviously the implementation of the Affirmative Action Program, but could the Min ister indicate to us -because we on this side of the House have had a number of concerns about the structure of the Affirmative Action Program with all these committees and then the decision not to hire an Affirmative Action Coordina tor. The Minister of Labour has indicated that they have elevated the position to that of an Assistant Deputy Min ister.

I would be very interested in seeing that Assistant Deputy Minister's job description to note that a 100 percent of his time, I would hope, is being devoted to affirmative action. I do not expect the Minister of Community Services (Mrs. Oleson) to have an answer to that question but what I am concerned about, we have a Minister in the department who is implementing affirmative action and her priorities-and albeit I agree with what she said are much in contrast to the Min ister responsible for the Civil Service Commission (Mr .

Conn ery), who said he is going to look after all the affirmative action and make sure that he will come down with a heavy hand for those departments who do not comp ly. Could the Minister indicate to us whether the Minister responsible for the Civil Service Commission (Mr. Conn ery), who is responsible for the implementation of the total Affirmative Action Program, if he has indicated to his departments that there shall not be priorities given to the promotion of staff internally in the Civil Service? 1416

Tuesday, September 20, 1988 Mrs. Oleson: I speak only as the Minister in charge of Community Services. I cannot speak for the Minister in charge of Labour and the Civil Service Commission. I think maybe her questions would be better directed to him in his Estimates. Ms. Gray: Could the Minister indicate to us if her department follows all the policies, procedures and suggestions as established by the Affirmative Action Assistant Deputy Minister within the Civi l Service Commission, who ultimately reports to the Minister responsible for the Civil Service Commission ? Mrs.

Oleson: We would be following any directives we get from the ADM in charge of Affirmative Action. Ms. Gray: Could the Minister of Community Services indicate to us if her department has received directives, either verbally or written, based on informati on we have received in this House from the Minister responsible for the Civil Service Commission , those directives being that there shall not be priority given to staff with in the Civil Service and that all jobs should be open to all individuals within the Province of Manitoba? Mrs.

Oleson: At the present, the directives that were in place are still in place and meetings will be held very soon with the person from the Civil Service Comm ission , the ADM who is in charge of affirmative action. Ms.

Gray: Again for a bit of clarification, could the Minister indicate to us that as the Affirmative Action Program is implemented throughout the Civil Service and therefore information is received by her department, is it a direction or an objective of the Affirmative Action Program that people outside the Civil Service Commission , that the same priority shall be given to them for applying for jobs and that no special considerations will be given to staff within the Civil Service who may be seeking promotions? Mrs. Oleson: We are trying to balance the needs of the department with respect to hiring .

I did indicate to her that it was one of the prior ities that people within the system be certainly allowed to apply for jobs within the system, and that is the way that this department is operating. *

(1530) Ms. Gray: The Minister responsible for the Civil Service Commission (Mr. Connery) has also indicated in this House that he will be heavy-handed if he feels that polic ies and implementation are not proceeding as he feels that it should be. Could the Minister of Community Services (Mrs . Oleson) indicate to us if there have been any communications from the Minister responsible for the Civil Service Commission as to the consequences of not following the affirmative action policies or procedures as would be expected by the Minister responsible for the Civil Service Commission? Mrs.

Oleson: He has indicated to me verbally certainly that he is expecting action with regard to affirmative action within all our departments , and I think perhaps 1417 your questions are better directed to that particular Minister when debating his Estimates as to exactly what the policies are. I cannot answer for that Minister. I only answer for my department. Mr. Chairman : On item (g)( 1) Salaries, shall the item pass? May I remind all Honourable Members of Rule 64(2 ) that questions in committee should be strictly relevant to the item or clause under discussion . Ms.

Gray: I do have a few more questions on the Affirmative Action Program which rightly belongs for discussion under this

section since there is an Affirmative Action Coordinator who is lodged with the Human Resources section. I note that the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) had indicated, a few minutes ago, that his Members of caucus do speak to each other.

I mig ht suggest to the Minister of Finance that although they speak to each other, perhaps they should learn to com municate better because a number of the issues that I have raised this afternoon clearly point out two glaring discrepancies in terms of how the Department of Community Services is implementing its affirmative action poli cies and what the Minister who is responsible for the overall Affirmative Action Program has been saying in this House. So I would advise the Minister of Finance (Mr.

Manness) that perhaps he could suggest to his caucus that although you do speak to each other, that perhaps you do learn to co mmunicate better. A few questions again. It was indicated yesterday and I thought my short-term memory was fairly good . I had asked the Minister of Community Services (Mrs. Oleson) if in fact the Regional Advisory Group, which I think is in Winnipeg South, if members of that group sat on hiring boards. She had ind icat ed, as is written in Hansard, that , yes, they did.

Further on in our Estimates discussions yesterday she indica ted that I had misunderstood and , in fact , they did not. Just for the record and for clarification , could the Minister indicate to us that Regiona l Advisory Board for Affirmative Action in Winnipeg South, do those individuals also sit on selection boards? Mrs. Oleson: They sit rarely , or on occasion as observers and advisors. They do not take

part in the decision-making. Ms. Gray: If these individuals sit on boards as obse rvers, then these member s do not have a vote in terms of who is hired on the boards? Mrs. Oleson: No, as I indicated yesterday and today , they are in an advisory capacity and do not take

part in the decision-maki ng . Ms. Gray: Could the Minister indicate to us these affirmative action members who sit on boards and observe and they do not have a vote , what do they observe? What is the purpose of having them sit on the board?

Tuesday, September 20, 1988 Mrs. Oleson: They would make sure that the candidate gets a fair hearing. Their presence also provides help when you are identifying systemic barriers. I would assume that for them to sit in on these is part of the learning process and helps in their capacity to advise. Ms. Gray: The Min ister has indicated that they may be able to point out systemic barriers.

If perhaps language has been identified as a barrier, i.e., the language of a particular candidate, their first language may not be English but may be another language, could the Member indicate what assistance his Members could be other than pointing out English is not their first language? What assistance would they be in that example of that particular barrier that I have mentioned? Mrs. Oleson: They could give advice on how to word questions so that they be fair to the particular target group or candidate, and also they could insist on or maybe then they themselv es provide service in interpreting. Ms.

Gray: Mr. Chairperson, if these advisory individuals who are sitting on boards have a disagreement with the process that is being followed, or perhaps disagree with the outcome of the hiring board, who has the final say as to who gets hired or what recourse would these advisory individuals have if they were concerned about the outcome of the board? Mrs. Oleson: The final say is with the personnel administrator, that of course the advice that was given, I am sure, would be listened to. Ms. Gray: The Minister has indicated that if advice was given at boards that the advice would be listened to.

Could the Minister indicate to us, these individuals who have sat on boards, what type of information have they been able to provide to her department and to her Personnel Branch as to some of the difficulties that various candidates encounter at boards? Mrs. Oleson: They have not sat for a period of time, but they will be providing a report to the personnel manager which should be valuable in assessing our role in affirmative action. We will be looking forward to that report from them. Ms.

Gray: In Estimates discussions yesterday, the Minister had also indicated that there were career devel opme nt pr ograms being ini ti ated and ha d mentioned one being initiated in the Human Resources Branch, and also mentioned one being initiated in one of the Winnipeg regions. That sounds very interesting. I am wondering if the Minister could tell us a bit more about this particular program in one of the Winnipeg regions. Mrs. Oleson: I wonder if the Member would permit us to get the detailed information for her later. * (15 40) Ms.

Gray: Yes, we would be pleased to receive that information later on in Estimates. A few more questions in the Human Resources Ser vices. For information, because the Human Resources obviously handles grievances throughout the Department of Community Services, I am wondering, and I do not want specific details obviously on particular gr ievances, but could the Minister indicate to us how many grievances there have been that have been handled or have gone through Human Resources in the last fiscal year. Mrs.

Oleson: The majority of the grievances were in the Correct ions area which of course has been transferred, but we could get the specific numbers for the Member later. Ms. Gray: I would appr eciate that information.

When the Min ister is getting the information on how many gr ievances, I am wondering if her Department of Community Services, excluding Corrections, if there has been an indication or data kept over the years as to whether grievances have increased in number per capita or per number of staff or whether they have decreased. lt might be interesting for us to know, given that sometimes we can use the number of grievances to indicate how well of a job we are doing as managers. If she could provide us with that information as we ll, that would be very useful. Mrs.

Oleson: We can provide that information as wel l. lt will be made available with the other information that the Member has asked for. Mr. John Angus (St. Norbert): Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, through you to the Min ister. Earlier in the day the Minister made reference to the fact that she was attempting to

schedule time off for staff, I believe, to attend Meech Lake hearings; you alluded to that. So my question-the Minister is indicating that she did not make any reference to that nature so I will ask her to clarify her comments on that, and that may lead to another question, if she would be kind enough to do that. Mrs. Oleson: The question which I was answering at the time was to do with staff, yes. As a side remark, I indicated that people had app roached me, wanting to know if there would be child care available to people who were attending, general public who was attending the Meech Lake Hearings.

I indicated at that time to the Member for St. Johns (Ms. Wasylycia-Leis), that was something we were looking at to see how we could implement that. That has been done before by the Government in cases where there were people going to be involved who might not otherwise be able to be present at a hearing. We are looking at that aspect. lt was a side issue which I mentioned at the time when she was talking about staff. But, no, this would not be for staff. Mr. Angus: Then if I may take what the Minister has suggested, it is more to accommodate those individuals who would be interested in attending the Meech Lake.

This is not any sort of an announcement as to when the Meech Lake Hearings might be taking place.- 1418

Tuesday, September 20, 1988 (Interjection)-Let the record show. Mr. Chairman, the Minis ter is ind icating negatively that she has not scheduled Meech Lake Hearings. Thank you for that clarification. Mr. Chairman: Item (g)

(1) Salaries-pass; item (g)

(2) Other Expenditures, $33,500- pass. Item 2. Registration and Licensing Services, (

a) Vital Statistics: Provides for the registration and certification of records of vital events and public services related to The Marriage Act, The Vital Statistics Act, The Change of Name Act, and The Child Welfare Act, subsection (1) Salaries, $782,000.00. Shall the item pass? Ms. Gray: In this particular sect ion und er Vital Statistics, we note that the Mi nister of Community Services has annou nced in creases in fees. I am wondering if the Minister could indicate to us what expected revenues there would be from this increase in fees. Mr. Oleson: Mr. Chairman, $12 7.8 thousand. Ms.

Gray: Could the Min ister indicate to us, with these increases in fees and this particular revenue, is this a sign ificant increase in revenues that we have seen for this year as opposed to other years? Mrs. Oleson: lt is less than a 10 percent increase. Mr. Chairman: Item 2.(a)( 1) -pass. Item 2.(a)

(2) Other Expenditures, $256,400- pass.

Section (

b) Residential Care Licensing, Licences commu nity residential care facilities and monitors compl iance with licensing standards.

(1) Salaries $288,000.00. Shall the item pass? Ms. Gray: Under the

section of Salaries, we have an indication that there are five SYs under professional and technical and one manager. Could the Minister indicate to us the positions of these professional and technical staff, what their jobs are? Mrs. Oleson: They are licensing coordinators. Ms. Gray: Could the Minister elaborate for us what do licensing coordinators do? What are their main job functions or main job responsibilities? Mrs. Oleson: They inspect the premises under The Social Services Administration Act. Ms.

Gray: Does the Minister have a breakdown for us and could she tell this House how many residential care facilities that there are across the province and could she break that down into the main categories, i.e., mentally ill, mental retardation, and aged and infirm? * (1 550) Mrs. Oleson: Mr. Chairman, there is a total of 709 facilities in 1988. I believe the Member wanted them 1419 broken down as to different types. The licensed totals for M.R., in '87 there were 93; 10 3 in '88; and in the letter of app roval homes, there were 283 in '87; 297 in '88.

In the mental health section, we have under licensing 32 in 19 87; 36 in 1988; and the letter of approvals 12 2 in '87; 104 in '88. In the aged and infirm, if she wants those figures as well, the licensed 17 in '87; 16 in '88; and the letter of approvals 17 in '87 and 15 in '88. There is what they consider a mixed setting, a total of five in both years, the same for both years, and the letter of approval, 59 in '87; 64 in 19 88. Under Child and Family Services, licensed 56 in '87 and 52 in '88.

Under The Young Offenders Act, which is still in the statistics but would be in Corrections now, there was one licensed under the licensing

section in '87 and 0 in '88; and letter of approval, 19 in '87 and 17 in 1988, for a total, as I said before, of 704 in '87 and 709 in '88. Ms. Gray: Mr. Chairperson, if I am correct in listening to the information, the Minister of Community Services had indicated that there was an increase in appr oved homes that would be classified under mixed, for '88 an increase over 1987. Could the Min ister indicate to us what is the policy of her department in regard to having facilities that would be classified as mixed?

I mean is this some thin g that her depa rtment is promoting or are they trying to move away from homes which have a variety of individuals residing there? Mrs. Oleson: I should indicate to the Member that the mixed facilities-mixed adult facilities-include M.R. and M.H. and aged and infirm programs, and there is no policy to move away from that. Those homes are still in place. Ms. Gray: Mr.

Chairperson, could the Minister indicate to us when community groups or individuals wish to establish residential care facilities, whether they be licensed or approved facilities, are there any suggestions or indications from her department- let us say an individual is asking for some assistance, is interested in opening a residential care facility perhaps for the mentally handicapped and/or the mentally ill, would there be any suggestions from her department as to whether the department would consider more desirable a facility which was strictly for individuals who were post-mentally ill or a facility that was strictly for individuals who are mentally handicapped, or would they suggest to that individual who is interested in pursuing opening up a residential care facility that the department would prefer a mixed facility?

Mrs. Oleson: it depends on what needs are to be met. There is no special policy on it. it can be a mixed facility, but it would depend on the application-what needs are they expecting to meet. Ms. Gray: When individuals are interested in opening up residential care facilities and would seek advice from the department. does the department provide information to those individuals in regard to specific requirements? Does the department support and give

Tuesday, September 20, 1988 information to the effect that, for instance, the aged and infirm population have very specific needs and that, in opening a residential care facility, those needs would have to be taken into consideration and programs developed along those lines? Is that something which is given priority in terms of a depar tment's discussions with individuals who have expr essed an interest in opening up a residential care facility? Mrs. Oleson: All the needs would be looked at of the facility that was being proposed.

They would look at it with prerequisites to that particular target group that they were proposing the facility for. lt would still have to meet with department appr oval with the Residential Care Licensing regulations and all that pertains to them before it would be approved. Certainly the Member asked if there would be information forthcoming from the department. The answer to that would be yes, that any questions that were asked of them, they would attempt to answer. Ms.

Gray: Could the Min ister indicate to us, do we have any residential care facilities where there are a group of individuals who may be aged and infirm and also mentally handicapped and/or mentally ill? In other words, you mentioned there was a mix of post-mentally ill and mentally handicapped. Do we also see, in residential care facilities, a mix of the aged and infirm with these other two categories? Mrs. Oleson: Post-psychogeriatric and infirm as well. I think that the Member probably is referring to larger facilities where there might be a greater mix of people than in some of the smaller ones. Ms.

Gray: Could the Minister explain to me what post psychogeriatric is? Mrs. Oleson: Aged and mentally infirm. Ms. Gray: Could the Min ister indicate to us is there any data within her department, or has this particular Residential Care Licensing Branch encountered difficulties with residential care facilities where there is a mixture of client populations? Have there been difficulties specific to these particular residential care facilities that have been identified through the branch? Mrs. Oleson: My staff advise me that there has been nothing specific brought to their attention. * (16 00) Ms.

Gray: Could the Minister indicate to us, within the Residential Care and Licensing, is there a standard number of beds or an ideal number of beds that is suggested to individuals opening up residential care facilities? Mrs. Oleson: lt will depend which program that the if the Mem ber could be more specific in what particular program, it might be more helpful to get an answer for her. Ms. Gray: I would be interested to know what would be considered ideal or appropriate in all the categories indicated for residential care facilities. Mrs.

Oleson: Four to six were encouraged under Welcome Home and in that way I am sure it was felt that there would be a more home-like atmosphere with fewer people. For instance, under the Welcome Home Program, they were attempting to get people out of the institution. If you put them into a large facility, they would still be in an institution. Ms. Gray: Could the Minister indicate to us if there are any appropriate numbers of beds for the aged and infirm facilities, and for the post-mentally ill facilities? Mrs. Oleson: There are no guidelines on that. Ms.

Gray: Could the Minister indicate to us if there is any policy direction in her department in regard to numbers of beds for the post-mentally ill or aged and infirm? Is there any policy or guidelines or any direction that her department is taking in regard to numbers of beds for these types of facilities? Mrs. Oleson: No, there is no policy on exactly the numbers or the size it should be. lt would vary with the proposal or the facility that was going to be licensed and they would each be looked at. They would be mainly looked at with the idea to how much space there is available for each person.

That is very important, but there is no policy saying that there will be this number and that number of beds in each facility. Ms. Gray: If there is no policy or direction regarding the number of beds for these facilities, can one assume then that an individual who may be applying for a licence through residential care and licensing, for example, applying for a licence for a 30-bed facility, as we do currently have now in the community for the post mentally ill, that that would certainly be supported in terms of that number of beds, that would be supported by her department? Mrs.

Oleson: it would be looked at as a specific case, looking at what the need is in that particular area, making sure that that facility would meet licensing requirements, but there is no hard and fast rule, as I indicated before, on exactly what size it should be. lt should reflect the needs. Ms. Gray: The Minister has indicated that under the Welcome Home initiative the ideal number of beds per facility or residence was four to six. Could the Minister indicate to us if she agrees with that policy? Mrs.

Oleson: That was one of the general guidelines of the Welcome Home Project, and as I indicated before, the idea was with that, that it was a smaller facility, was a more homelike setting. Ms. Gray: The Minister had indicated that the four to six was a general guideline. Could the Minister indicate whether in fact that guideline is still in existence and does Residential Care Licensing and the Mini ster support that guideline? Mrs. Oleson: That was not a hard and fast number. I know of facilities that are the size of three, so that 1420

Tuesday, September 20, 1988 was not hard and fast. The Member should be reminded that the Welcome Home Program as a program has wound down, but as I indicated before, any of these homes would be looked at with a view to the facility itself, the needs of the group that were to be targeted and the needs of the community. Ms. Gray: I am quite aware that the Welcome Home Program has wound down.

What my question is-and I am not that concerned about a specific number three or four-could the Minister indicate to us whether she as the Min ister and her department support the basic concept with regard to the mentally handicapped, that smaller is better and that we should be moving towards facilities in the community where we are looking at smaller numbers such as four to six, two to three? this is my question.

Could she indicate to us whether in fact she supports that concept, and whether in fact the Residential Care and Licensing who gives licences and approvals, or under their authority approvals are given, if that concept is supported? Mrs. Oleson: We are not adopting any absolute numbers of what size is absolutely ideal. We look at what the needs of the people are. In some cases, it is ideal, of course, for people to live in a smaller more homelike setting.

That is good, sometimes that is not possi ble, and if the Memb er is ref erring to the deinstitutionalization of people and talking about the whole controversy, if you will, about MDC, that is another matter, but there has to be facilities for people which reflect their needs. We try to meet that when possible. lt is not possible, of course, to meet every single need, but there is no hard and fast-and I would not be making any hard and fast rule that says this facility for this group has to be so big, and that group has to be another size. I think what we want here is flexibility. Ms.

Gray: Could the Min ister indicate to me, and there are a number of community groups out there who, through their own efforts and willingness to volunteer their time, parents and other community individuals choose to open up community residences for the mentally handicapped? If a particular group came to myself or to the Min ister and said they wanted to open up a community residence that had 10 or 12 beds, can the Minister indicate to us whether she as Min ister would support that and would Residential Care and Licensing support that? Mrs.

Oleson: We would certainly take a look at it. would not say that we would approve it at this point or that we would disap prove of it, because we would have to take a look at the particular proposal. Each proposal would be looked at on its own merit. Ms. Gray: What I am trying to do is get an indication from the Minister of Community Services (Mrs. Oleson) today about the whole area of community residences.

I am not caught up with numbers per se, but the Minister herself has indicated that when we are looking at community residences we want to ensure that we do not just develop institutions within the community, and she has indicated that smaller is better.

Given that there are individual needs and individual circumstances which would be looked at, could the 1421 Minister agree or disagree with the general statement that in the community we would be looking at residences which basically would have beds which would be lesser in number rather than more, and we are moving towards the general idea of "smaller is better"? * (1 610) Mrs. Oleson: Yes, I do agree that smaller places give a more homelike setting for people, and wherever possible, that be done. We also have to look at community standards, the community that it is going into, and the needs of the people.

Sometimes if you are having to look-and we do have to look of course at dolla rs, smaller sett ings are sometime s mo re expensive. Unfortun ately, that has to be looked at. That is one of the facts of life. But generally speaking, the smaller setting, of course, as I said before, is more homelike and more desirable. Where possible, we would try to fit that into the program, but as I said before also, we were not really hung up on the absolute numbers and would not be approving or disapproving something because it had one person over or one person under.

As I indicated before, a program would have to be looked at on its own merit; what they were attempting to do, who they were attempting to help, and if it would be beneficial for those people. So there are a lot of things besides the size that get into the whole mix. Ms. Gray: I appreciate the Minister of Community Services' (Mrs.

Oleson) comments and I am glad to hear from her that there is a general philosophy, or a general feeling that as we move to deinstitutionalize individuals or as we build and create more community residences for our mentally handicapped, that smaller residences are more homelike and can be less institutional. I am pleased to hear the Minister's comments on that and I am also pleased to hear that Residential Care and Licensing would be supporting community groups who would come forward in terms of wishing to build community residences with basically more homelike atmosphere and where numbers are smaller.

My concern, however , is not with th e mentally handicapped at this point. lt is with the homes for the post-mentally ill. We have a situation in the community where we have 40-bed facilities within the City of Winnipeg which, in fact, are akin to mini-institutions. Earlier on, the Minister indicated that her department would not give any specific direction or suggestions to groups who might come forward in regard to bed size. I have a lot of concern that for too long the mentally ill in our society have been relegated to be at the bottom of the barrel in terms of recei ving pr iority from Governments.

We recognize the value of the dollars that have gone in to services for the mentally handicapped, but unfortunately those same amounts of resources have not been given to the post-mentally ill program. There are a lot of lobby groups in the community who for a long time have been saying: When are we

Tuesday, September 20, 1988 going to, as a Government, develop some guidelines where we look at the deinstitutional ization of the post mentally ill and when we develop community residences which are, in fact, like a homelike atmosphere and not continue to build 12 -, 15 -and 30-bed residences in the community, which really cannot be considered at all a ho melike atmosphere, but which are mini institutions? I am wondering if the Minister of Community Services (Mrs.

Oleson) could indicate to us if she will very quickly review with her department to establish a philosophy and some direction regarding the whol e area of community residences and residential care facilities for the post-mentally ill, in regard to programs that would be available within those residential care facilities and specifically in regard to the number of beds-so that we move away from mini-institutions in the community. Mrs. Oleson: Most of the homes to which the Member refers have been established for some time, are guest homes and so forth that have been established.

I would remind the Member that this department licences these facilities. We do not provide the program, particularly. I also would mention that I am working in conjunction with the Minister of Health (Mr . Orchard) with regard to the residential care and other matters pertaining to my department because, of course, ther e is considerable overlap between the two departments. This particular Residential Care Licensing

section of the department is the licensing part of it and not the program ming. Ms. Gray: Would the Minister tell us whether she would consider working with Residential Care and Licensing or have her staff work with Residential Care and Licensing and move toward developing a guideline that suggests facilities in the community for the mentally ill should be smaller in nature, similar to the guidelines that we have spoken about this afternoon in regard to the mentally handicapped? Would she consider giving that direction or entering into those discussions with Residential Care and Licensing? Mrs.

Oleson: What the Member is requesting is really under the purvie w of the Department of Health. I would remind the Member also-and this will be in the Department of Health as well- but over the years, there have been and are cases where the mentally hand icapped and post-mentally ill are in a foster care sort of situation in a boarding house, that type of thing. There are some of them in smaller, letter-of-approval type guest homes that are smaller and very homelike settings. So these things do take place. As I said before, in this department there is no hard and fast rigid rule about size.

We look at different programs on their own merit, or different facilities. I will repeat too that we in this

section of Residential Care Licensing do not set the policy with regard to programming and how this whole area will be dealt with. As I indicated before also, my department is working with the Department of Health with regard to residential care homes and other things that overlap between the two departments. Ms. Gray: Mr. Chairperson, the Minister has indicated that Residential Care Licensing is not responsible to ensure that program standards are met within these facilities.

Does Residential Care Licensing have any communication at all with the group of individuals who are responsible to ensure program standards are met? Mrs. Oleson: Mr . Chairman, yes, ther e is clos e communic ation between the people who design prog rams and this area th at do the licensin g of residential homes. Ms. Gray: Mr. Chairperson, if a particular community residential care facility is clearly not meeting program standards, who has the authority to suspend or revoke that residence's licence? Mrs.

Oleson: A recommendation would be given from the people involved in programs to the licensing authority if they thought the standards were not being met. These facilities are inspected quite regularly and initiative could come from the licensing department itself to suspend a licence, but it would be done in conjunction with the people involv ed in the programs plus the Residential Licensing Department. Ms. Gray: Mr. Chairperson, for clarification then, is the Min ister indicating that, as well, Residential Care Licensing does get involv ed with monitoring th e program standards? Mrs.

Oleson: They have to do the monitoring of programs but there is communication between the two groups. Ms. Gray: If a program staffperson or obviously probably a supervisor or a regional director brought forth a recommendation regarding violation of program standards, or lack of a residential care facility's ability to deliver those program standards, and brought forth the recommendation that the licence should be revoked, does Residential Care licensing then automatically accept that recommendation by the staff who of course are the ones responsible to ensure whether program standards are met? Mrs.

Oleson: The Residential Care Licensing authority would review and consult with the program people. lt would be a joint decision. Ms. Gray: Could the Min ister indicate to us how often do the staff in Residential Care Licensing inspect the various residential care facilities? * (1 620) Mrs. Oleson: They are inspected on a twice-a-year basis. That is minimal requirement and inspected by the Licence Branch. Then, of course, program staff are there more regularly and involved with the clients. If, of course, there was a request to inspect it more frequently, that would be done. Ms.

Gray: I believe that within The Social Services Administration Act and within the regulations that there are guidelines for residential care facilities regarding nutritional requirements of residences, any special diets, 1422

Tuesday, September 20, 1988 etc. Could the Minister indicate to us where does that expertise come from in Residential Care Licensing to ensure that those regulations would be met? Mrs. Oleson: The menu of the facility is checked, and it is checked for nutritional value, but the advice is given by the Home Ec Department. Ms. Gray: Will the Minister clarify what she means by the Home Ec Department, if there is not one? Mrs. Oleson: lt would be the Home Ec Department within the Department of Health. Ms.

Gray: Could the Minister indicate, this consultation with the Home Ec Department within the Department of Health, is that done through the Health Promotion Directorate? Is advice garnered from regional staff and is the advice I guess garnered from individuals in Winnipeg? Mrs. Oleson: We access that information through all regions, but it will be through home ec directorate of the Department of Health. Ms. Gray: Possi bly, ju st to clarify for my own information, to make it easier, because there is not a home ec directorate per se within the Department of Health, is the advice obtained from Cathy McNeil? Mrs.

Oleson: Yes, it is. Ms. Gray: The Min ister had indica ted that her residential care staff inspect the residential care facilities twice a year, and that the program staff inspect or visit facilities more often. She has certainly indicated there is constant communication between Residential Care Licensing, obviou sly, and the program staff. Could she then indicate how often do the program staff visit the residential care facilities? Mrs. Oleson: That could vary with different programs, how often they were visited . lt would depend on the program. Ms.

Gray: The Minister has indicated that her staff visit twice a year and I would assume that would certainly be a minimum standard as set forth by Residential Care Licensing. Would there not be a minimum standard, as wel l, established in regard to how often the Community Services staff would visit residential care facilities? Mrs. Oleson: This would certainly be reflective of the needs of the particular clients, and it would depend on which program was being inspected, who was living in the residence, and the particular needs of those clients.

There could be some variation in the number of visits per year to any particular residence. lt mainly would reflect the needs of the clients. Ms. Gray: Could the Minister indicate if there is at least some minimum standard? If we consider that visits are made according to the needs of the client, if you had individuals who were seemingly functioning very 1423 well in the community residence, an individual may not visit at all for the whole year. Could the Minister indicate if there is at least a minimum standard as to how often program staff should be visiting these facilities? Mrs.

Oleson: lt depends on the individual program plan for the client. So it would, as I said before, vary from residence to residence and, as I said before, be designed to meet the needs of that particular client. I do not think, as the Member indicated, there would not be someone go for a year without a visit. Ms. Gray: The Minister has indicated that it may depend on what the individual program plan says. My understanding is that for clients who live in aged and infirm facilities there is not an individual program plan, so how is it determined as to how often residences will be monitored for A. and I. facilities?

Mrs. Oleson: There is no particular program for that particular group. As I have indicated I am sure in the House, I think it was during Question Period, that is an area which is being looked at between the Department of Health and the Department of Seniors. Ms. Gray: Could the Min ister ind icate to us for individuals who are living in these residential care facilities-and she has talked a lot about individual client needs.

Can we then assume that an individual worker within her department or within the Department of Health would be assigned to each one of these individuals who live in those residential care facilities? Mrs. Oleson: No, they would not necessarily be assigned a worker because, some of the aged and infirm in some of the residences, they go there on their own and in many cases they pay their own way as well. So there would not be a program set up.

They are not clients of this department or of the Health Department Within one facility, you might have some who were clients of this department or the Health Department, but not all the residents necessarily would be. Ms.

Gray: Given what the Minister has said, is it not then conceivable that in a particular facility, let us say, with 12 beds, a facility that is licensed under aged and infirm that in fact, let us say, three clients out of 12 may have been assigned case workers, the other nine may not have and a number of problems may arise as to the care of those nine individuals which of course would go unnoticed by the department because they are not assigned a worker and Residential Care and Licensing does not monitor program standards. So how would something like that be identified within the department? • (16 30) Mrs.

Oleson: As I indicated before, they may or may not be clients of either department. If they had special needs that would be identified, then I am sure the manager of the facility would be getting them some assistance. There are people who of their own volition go into these residences. They are quite well able to not able to take care of themselves completely and

Tuesday, September 20, 1988 that is why of course they are in the residence, but as I said they are not clients of this department or of the Health Department. I know there is a gap there. That is why the Department of Seniors and the Department of Health are looking at this. But it is not every single person that is in a residence that wants or needs continual monitoring. Ms.

Gray: Could the Min ister indicate to us how does the Residential Care Licensing Branch understand their role as ensuring that for residences which are given letters of app roval or licences that all standards within that facility are adequately monitored when we may have a whole population within a particular residence which do not have any workers assigned to them? There appears to be only twi ce-a-year in spect ion by Residential Care Licensing. My concern is there may be a lot of program standards out there which are not being carried out. There see

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	34-1-40
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	34th 1st hansardpdf 40.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	05682a73b741762701d8a96bab9aeb5209440f70

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