Volume 4 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 4th. Session VERBATIM REPORT WEDNESDAY, JUNE 25, 1975 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE M. JAMES RUSSELL Number 57

June 25, 1975. Tape 2697 RI! - 1 The House met at 3:00 p.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: STATEMENTS BV MINISTERS: 1-'R. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Fisheries. HON. J. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I just wanted to inform the House that there is now on the way to Mr.

Jamieson a message in connection with the situation at Goose Bay and a confirmation that the U.S.A.F. authorites are leaving Goose Bav on June 30, 1976 in which the Government of Newfoundland requested he arrange a meeting hetwcen himself and the Minister of Transport with myself and the ~•inister of Industrial Development and the Minister of ~anpower and Industrial Relations so that we can discuss the progress the Goose Bay Task Force has made and decide on steps which both governments should now take to prepare for the confirmed departure of the U.S.A.F. to insure a smooth transition and employment for those who are going to be affected.

The purpose of the message is to ask Mr. Jamieson to arrange a meeting so that we can develop a plan of action and review what the progress has been to date and decide what steps are going to be taken in the next year so that evervthi.ng goes as smoothly as possible. Once a meeting is arranged, of course, we will advise the public generally of when the meeting is. So that message has heen sent in accordance with my statement yesterday that we are going to do that this week. In addition, Mr. Speaker, I have sent a message to Mr.

MacEachen, Secretary of State for External Affairs in connection with the failure of the I.aw of the Sea Conference and the failure of the ICNAF meeting to achieve Canada's objectives in connection with the fishing situation on the East Coast of Canada asking Mr. MacEachen to convene a meeting as soon as possible of the representives of the Provinces interested and other concerned parties to discuss the course of action that Canada now proposes to take to protect the fishing industry of the 777 I

Ju,-,e 2.5, }Q7S. Tape 2697 RH - 2 East Coast of Canada . At a meeting in Geneva when both Mr. MacEachen and I were in Geneva, I think it was April at the Law of the Sea Conference, he agreed there should be such a meeting if the ICNAF Conference failed. So I telexed him on behalf of the government asking for him to arrange such a meeting and to advise us when such a meeting will be held so that Canada can discuss with us the plan of action that Ganada should have now as to what action is going to be taken on this issue.

I have advised him that we cannot over-emphasize the importance of this issue to the Province and ,ill our people. So, that message is going forth to MacEachen at the present time. Once he replies and advises such a meeting can be arranged, of course we will let the House know, if it is in session or the nubl:t,­ kno'IJ. PRESENTING PETITIONS: MR. SPEAKF:R: The honourable Member for Harbour Grace. MR. H. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, I would like to present a petition on behalf of some 800 residents in the area of Harbour Grace.

Sir, this petition represents the people from Harbour Grace, Bryants Cove, Harbour r.race South, Riverhead and Bristol's Hope. Sir, the prayer of the petition is that a community pasture be provided to serve the ,irea. The petition reads, Sir, "We, the undersigned, hereby petition t, ,p Provincial Government of Newfoundland and Labrador for the establishment of a comm.unity pasture in the town of Harbour Grace. Cattle owners and all citizens strongly feel that this be done within a minimum of delay. The establishment of such a pasture would benefit owners of animals as well as all residents.

This "Will help alleviate the problem of roaming cattle and will benefit farmers by giving them ample time to carry on other asnects of farming while cattle are being kept in pasture. " Sir, I stron~ly support this petition because of the large number of cattle in the area and the distance from neighbouring pastures. 7778

June 25, 1975. Tape 2697 RH - 3 Sir, in supporting this petition I also probably would speak of the problems of the farmers by having such lar~e numbers of sheep nnd other animals destroyed by dogs. Sir, I respectfully submit this petition and ask that it be tabled and referred to the department to which it relates. 7779

.l une 25, 1 Q75 Tape 2698 (Afternoor.) PK - 1 MR. SPF.AKER: The Hon. Member for Bell Island. ·----- - MR. NF.ARY: 1'1r. SneaJ.:er, one p,oocl turn deserves another. The MrmhPr for Harhour Graef' supported mv petition the other day on the BP l l T ,"1anrl Ferry, and I am deli!!-hted, Sir, to be able to support thP petition presented hy the member on behalf of his constituents 1n the District of Harbour r.race, Bryants Cove, Bristol's Hope area who just merelv are asking the government to provide a community pa,sture so that they can have some place to put their cattle. Now, 'fr.

SpeakPr, it is a reasonable request. That particular nart, Sir, of Conception Bav has always been noted for or the people have al ways heen noted for their enterprise in growing their own vep,etahles, keeping their own cattle, raising of pigs or having a few sheep, raising their own beef cattle and so forth. And as a matter of fact I believe the Stadium in Harbour Grace, the Sy Moores Memorial Stadium wa,,; financed under an agricultural grant.

And so, Sir, it r,1ves me great pleasure to support the petition, and I certainly agree with the memher that the dog menace in the area is a proper nuisance , not onlv in that area, Sir, but down around the Port de Grave area and in various other parts of Newfoundland, It is a problem that nobody seems tn he able to do anything about. Not only this administration hut the previous administration aoparently could not do anything ahout it. I have heard more complaints about roaming dogs and the dne mPnance, I suppose, than anv other problem in Newfoundland.

And T dn hon" t 11at the ministPr responsible will finally take the bull by the horns and do something about thiF particular dor, situation . ' !R . SPT:AKER: The llon. l(ember for Port de Grave. ··-- --- ·· :~~- EVANS~ Take the dog by the horns . . 'IR. l•!IL~QN.3_ 'fr. Speaker, I would like support this petition which the Hon. Member from Har hour Grace has brought on the floor of the House of .A. ssembly. And 1 do not think there is any pasture in Harbour Grace at the oresent time.

Nearly all of the districts, I know the one which T represent tDere are a couple or three pastures in it, and T thin¥ it is a rood thing for the community and the people who Jive there. because 1.f they have cattle they cannot roam on the streets 77t0

June 25, 1975 Tape 2698 (Afternoon) PK - ? any longer because they are a menace to the travelling public, Therefore there should he a space provided by the provincial government for these cattle to pasture :In. I would also like to make mention of the roaming dogs that have been spoken about by the Hon. Member from Harbour Grace and also the Hon. Me111ber from Bell Island. I know my district is plagued with them, not only mine, every other district.

And I think when one tries to get something to help them along in a livelihood such as sheep or cattle or what not and to find out that it is torned to pieces by dogs it is very discouraging. I do not \.'not• if a great lot can be done about it because we have an awful of people who are keeping these animals for pets, such as dogs, but not looking after them in the proper manner and when they have cause to roam they are caused to breed trouble. And I hope that in the future that probably our younger generation will get down to the place that they will learn and take hold of and look after these. Thank you.

MR, SPEAKER: I am pleased to have learned that we have in the galleries today from Stephenville Crossing the Mayor, Mr. Clifford Goodyear with Councillor Mr. Ron O'Keefe and the Town Clerk, Mr. White. On behalf of honourable members I welcome you here and trust that your visit is most interest:! .ng and informative. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Leader of the Opposition. HON. E. Ml. ROBERTS {LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION): Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Premier and of the Minister of Transportation and Communications who is the Acting Minister of Public Works and Services?

I will have to direct my question, I think, to the Minister of Health. Tn view of the Premier's publicly expressed commitment to announce the location oi the new Burin Peninsula Hospital by June 15, in view of the fact that today is June 25, could the minister tell us vhen the announcement will be made of the location of the hospital? MR. SPEJ[J{ER: The lion. Minister of Health. 7781

.lune 25, 1q 75 Tane 2698 (Aftern oon) l'K - 3 •!~~,_JI . !-.'r:_!.L!-_ (NtN!STf.R OF Hf:ALTH): I should t hink, Mr. Speaker, that annou.-cement wi 11 be m11dp •11.thi.n a week to ten days. ~IR. ROllERTS: ~r. Sneaker. a :<upnlementary. I do not want to qua rrel Pi t li s,inrds hut am I to umlerst ·and the rn:inister - the people on the Prn !nsula are ~oing on the Premier ' s commitment am T to understand the minister to sav th11t th~re 1•tll be an announc ement within the next week or ten devs? . ~l~I:.S.~ MR._ ROflr,RT<;: That i s m~• understanding . T tahe tt that is the minister's underst andin g.

Well t li;it is far as we can go . I thank the honourable ~entleman, Sir. Mav T ;isk ll nu.estio n now 1.n the absence of the lfinister of F'<>restry anrl A!(rfculture. T t:h:!nk po1:s1l,ly the 11entlem an from St. llarhe South. the Mini !Ster r,f !'fanpower might 1-e in a pos;Lt 1.on to help.

T ;im toltl that t he mill at Hawkes .Ray has nf'f'n closed for a period of somr month s and t!rnt furthermore the 1-'0ods operations have closed !Since the 211th. tlav of 'fard1, In new of the fac t there are about seventv-five or eighty j oh!l tnvolved 1 could the minister indicAte to u~ wha t stf'))S thl" administration is taking to get the woods operations jt(ljnp a~rtin. 7782

June 25, 1975 Tape 2699 (afternoon) Ill-1 I understand there are 13,0n() conls of wood in the woods to he hauled to the mill and that would provide seventy-five to eighty 1obs if it could be activated. r.ould he brinp: us up to date please? "!R. SPEAKER: The honourahle "inister of Manpower and Tndustrjal Felations. FON. E. }f.AYNARD (~INI.STER OF MANPOWEF AND INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS ) : J will try to bring the honourable r,entleman up to date on what procedures have been tl!ken so far.

I think everyone is /!Ware tlrnt the company that was :Involved :In the Hawkes Bay operation was o,,med hy Bowaters and Lundrigans on a fifty - fifty basis. They have decided to dissolve the partnership ,which is not causing any real problems but there have to be some legal technicalities worked out between the two parties.

There is also the matter of the mortgaRe that government held and still holds on the property in Hawkes Bay which both companies hacl to negoti.ate with government to assume responsibility for parts of the mortgage, }fost of the details have been ironed out at this ti.me and I understand that the Tlepartffl('nt of Justice and P.owaters have come to an agreement in principle as far as the mortgage that is going to be assumed by Rowaters i.s concerned.

In talking to Bowaters on Monday in Corner Brook they indicated that they should be able to start reactivating the woods operation probably by the last of June, The mill as I understand it is reacly to go and Lundrigans are ready to go as soon as some timber is delivered to the mill. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Bell Island, MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to put a question to the Minister of Health. Would the minister tell the House how many hospitals in Newfoundland have been forced to close down some of their beds in the last week or so or will have to close he~s in the next week or two?

HON. ll. WELLS (~NTSTER O'F l!F:ALTH): To my knowledge, ~r. Speaker, no hospitals have heen forced to close heels. There were some heds that were closed at the r.eneral Hospital, I understand, hecause 778'J

IB-2 a shortar,e of nursPs 11s11Allv ocnirs At this time of the year. This 11:.is to do, T thlnk,,, ,ith r,arriec1 women taking holidays, this sort of th1ng. This hc1s 0rten happened. T 11nderstanc1 that some heels at the r.eneral Hospital were closed but not to the real detriment in any sense of the service which is being provided. I have no report of other close r!owns or close down of heds elsewhere in the Province nor do I think any is contemplated.

J think we have to be careful in considering this, that sometimes A hospital or part of the hospital board as part of its normal procedures might close beds or take some beds out of service for a variety of reasons. nut that is pHrt of the internAl management of the hospital. 'lR. SPEAK Ell; The honourable Memher for Bell Island. ~IR. NEARY: A supplementary question. To the ministt•r's knowler!ge, have any of the hospitals been forced to close hec1s, not because of shortap:e of nurses but for economic reasons thHt the minister might J,now of. '-11'.

WELL, : I have nn knowledge of such closing f.or economic re.:isons. Mf'. l\lF.ARY: vr. Speaker, I would like to put a question to the Minister of fisheries, ~ir. Would the ~•inister of Fisheries tell the House if he has recc-lved any requests from fishermen around Newfoundland, e s peciall y the tran fishermen in Little St. Lawrence, who have been unahle to finc-1 11 market for their fish due to the fact that the fish pl an ts are r.luttec1 at the moment1 If so, what action has the minister t aken on such renuests as the one from the six trapmen in Little S t. Lawrence? ''".

SPEAKER: The honourable Ministrr of Fisheries. HON . J.C . CROSRJF. (MINISTER OF FISHT<'.!HES): Mr. Speaker , the nep11rtment nf Fisheries has heard frnm a numher of fishermen today, particularl y In l'l11centi11 R11y area and the South Crrn.st when• the f:lsh have struck i n, th.:it they arP nnt all ah le to sell their fish to the various pl,rnts in the a rea because of this glut of fish. So, as all memhPrR n f the House know, it is either a feast or a famine. The plants will nn wl1at t hey c an to t;ake thi s fish. Some they may not be able to take. T'1e re ls nnth-lnp. th,at we can c1o ahout it immec1-lately.

As all members of the Po us e l·now . 1t is not possihle 7784

June 25, 1975 Tape No, 2700 NM - 1 MR, CROSBIE: to have plants of sufficient capacity to take all the fish that offers in the six or eight week trap season because then the plants would be too large for operating the rest of the year. Soall you can do in a situation like this is make sure the plants take all the fish they can, that they divert trawlers if they can to other plants where they are not getting fish and of course these steps will be taken but there is no solving that problem today.

But we have had a number of messages from fishermen to that effect and it is unfortunate but it is caused by the fact that they have now had a sudden influx of fish in the area. MR. SPEAKER: Before I recongize another honourable member I have just been informed that there is another delegation in the galleries from the Town of Spaniards Bay, Deputy Mayor Vokey and Councillors Neal, Gosse and Peddle and on behalf of all the honourable members I certainly welcome you gentlemen to the galleries today. The honourable Member for Bell Island. MR, NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the Minister of Provincial Affairs, Sir, who is responsible for the environment would care to make a comment on a statement made by the Mayor of Bay Roberts that the minister is passing the buck in not making a decision on a dump for that community? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, if I may, I had a meeting of all the municipalities in the area this morning, the Municipality of Bay Roberts, of Spaniard's Bay, of Cupids, North River (how am l doing) Clarke's Beach - anymore? - of all municipalities involved in the dump situation and we have resolved the - .MR, DOODY; South River, Tilton. MR. PECKFORD: - South River, Tilton - right! MR, ROBERTS: Roaches Line. MR. PECKFORD: Bishop's Cove MR HmJA'Rn• Upper Island Cove . MR. MURPHY: Clearwater. AN HON. MEMBER: Turks Gut. MR. PECKFORD: On the whole dwup problem and we have been able to 778'.J

]'t'1t> 25. 1975 Tape No. 2700 NM - 2 n · 0lve the dump situation to the satisfaction of the municipalities concerned and action will be taken in the next day or two to put what we decided upon into reality in the next couple of days, And what was decided was the regional dump concept was eliminated and we have gone to a four dump situation where we have three or four municipalities sharing one dump until we have further surveys done on a more suitable site that would be more acceptable to all municipalities in the area.

So the thing has been resolved to the satisfaction of everybody for the ensuing twelve to fifteen months. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Finance, He will recall his glee sometime ago in informing the House he had received a threatening letter on my letterhead as he was going to turn it over to the police, I am wondering if he has done so and if so what report he has had from the police? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Finance. MR. EARLE: Mr.

Speaker, the letter in question was turned over to the Department of Justice, I have heard nothing from it since. I am not particularly worried,I might say, MR. ROBERTS: I am not the least bit concerned, It was the minister who was worried, but I would like to ask the Minister of Justice then if he would bring us up-to-date. It was the Minister of Finance who Felt impelled to raise this matter publicly, a great outrage, I think were his words. MR. HICKMAN: I will take that under advisement and ask for a report from the Chief of Police, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Bell Island. MR.

NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I want to ask my usual routine question of the President of Treasury Board, Sir, Would the President of Treasury Board, the Minister of Industrial Development tell us whether or not we are going to be able to get a drop of stuff for the weekend1 MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Industrial Development. MR. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, it is very tempting with the Liberal Ball on the progr amme to say that it seems extremely unlikely that 7786

June 25, 1975 Tape No. 2700 there will be any available. It would be nice to see all these people having to tolerate each other without the help NH - 3 of alcohol. However, in the interest of humanity and Ch~istian charity we are doing what we can to alleviate their problem. The union people I think are meeting today to discuss the appointment of an arbitrator to try to resolve the problem that they were having with one of the management people who refused to cro s s the picket line. That is the only hang-up right now. They have accepted government's offer.

If they can get the arbitrator in place I think the situation will be resolved. So hopefully today or tomorrow or whenever that thing happens the stores will re-open. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Fogo. CAPT , WINSOR: Before you call Orders of the Day may I direct a question to the honourable Minister of Fisheries, Has the minister. H'.ceived any reply to his telegram to the honourable Mr. LeBlanc re assistance to the fishermen along the Northeast Coast? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Fisheries. MR. CROSBIE: No, Mr. Speaker, I have not received any reply yet. MR.

SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Bell Island. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the honourable the Premier, Sir, In view of the Premier's interest in cable television some time ago, in view of the fact that the Government of Canada may turn this jurisdiction over to the provinces, would the Premier tell the House whether or not negotiations are going on with the Government of Canada to bring cable television into Newfoundland and can we expect cable television in Newfoundland in this calendar year? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable the Premier. MR. MOORES: Mr.

Speaker, the government is very anxious,! suppose, or desirious of having cable television in tl,e province. We are not dealing with any individuals or group of individuals regarding the establishment of cable television here.As the honourable Member for Bell Island knows, CRTC is 7781

.Tune, :'.5, l'l75. Tape 2701, l'a?.e 1 -- apb t he p;overninr- body, at l east to date, on who gets such authority to hrinp: i.n cahle television. They are also the ones that dictate the terms of reference. Now there has been a great deal of concern about provincial iurisdi.ction in this regard, particularly in the Province of Quebec, who I understand are insisting that the Province have the rights over cable television in their Province. I have not heard, as the honourable member said, that the federal government planned to pass over this authority to the provincial governments.

As a matter of fact, I would be most amazed if that was the case, I think the case is quite the reverse. But at the nresent time we have made representation to the C.R.T.C., not on behalf of anybody but rather tha~ if possible at all, that cable television be allowed to come to our Province and that is basically as far as we as the Provincial Government at this time can take it ~nless we want to challenge the federal government a s to the provincial versus federal rights of cable television.

And as I say, the only province that I know of at this time who are actively challenging this concept is the Province of Quebec. We have obviously thought about it but we certainly have not done anything about it as yet. MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: The honourable the Member from Bell Island. Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Premier another question ; Sir.

Would the Premier tell the House what is being done now, what action the government has taken on providing residences for the students of the College of Trades and Technology, and what prov i sion the government has made to take care of the overflow of students, the number of applications that have been made that will not be able to be accommodated at the College of Trades and Technology this fall? MR . SPEAf<ER: t'R. MOORES: The honourable the Premier. I think, Mr.

Speaker, the Minister of Education who has been involved in this from the beginning should be the one to answer that in more detail than I would be able to. 7788

June 25, 1975, Tape 2701, Page 2 -- apb MR. SPEAKER: MR. OTTENHEIMER: The honourable the Minister of Education. Mr. Speaker, actually the government , the Department of Public Works in effect, is negotiating for the purchase of land which is contiguous to the College of Trades and Technology. There are different prices between what is offered . what is offered by the government, what is requested by the present owner. There has now been a move and the two sums are closer together.

I would expect that within ten days or so either there be agreement upon price or the natural, logical course of procedure for the acquisition of property will be entered into. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable the Member for Fogo. MR. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, another question to the honourable the Minister of Fisheries. Is the Minister of Fisheries aware that because of lack of facilities, so The News says, the people - or the fishermen on the Port au Port area have to truck their fish to Sydney to dispose of it? MR. SPEAKER: MR. CROSBIE: The honourable the Minister of Fi.sheries. Mr.

Speaker, I am certainly aware that the fishermen of Port au Port Peninsula would like to have better facilities to help them in the catching and curing and sale of their fish . And despite our best effort we have not been able to get the Government of Canada to move very far in that direction. I am visiting the Port au Port Peninsula on Friday and spending the day there with the member for the district, the honourable the Member for Port au Port, and so I will have a first-hand look myself at exactly what the situation is and just what is happening there.

But I certainly believe they have a problem there and something should he done to ameliorate it. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable the Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Premier. In view of the fact that we now have two vacancies in the House, the seat from White Bay South has been vacant for nearly twelve months, the seat for Labrador South has been vacant for over a month, could the 7789

.Tune 25 , Jq75, Tape 2701 Page 3 - apb Pr emier i ndi cate whether he will immediately take the steps to have the writs iss ued fo r the by- ele ction necessary to f ill t hese sea t s? MR . SPF.AKER: The honourable the Premier. MR . lOORF.S: Mr. Speaker, 1 would like to say, 1 suppose, thAt in the no t too di s t ant future all the seats in the House wil l be filled hy t he appropriat e peopl e. •tR. ROBERTS : Mr. Speaker , 1 welcome that. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear! Hear! MR. ROBERTS: They were a little slow on the uptake there. They are not well trained.

Would the Prelllier indicate how quickly we can expect that? Hopefully today? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable the Premier. MR. MOORES: Speaking on behalf of the untrained as opposed to one who is very adequately trained,

June 25, 1975. Tape 2702 PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, the answer is in due course. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Bell Island. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I want to get hack to this matter nf residence over here at the College of Trades again. The Premier is aware, of course, that he made a commitment to the students that every effort would be made to provide the students with residences this coming September. There is also a collDllitment about the Polytech. What is happening in connection with the Polytech? Is it going ahead? Is it being shelved?

Would the Premier care to anawer,or the Minister of F.ducation? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Education. RR - 1 HON. G. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, actually there are two questions there. On the one with reference to the Polytech, the architectual firm of Horwood,Guihan and Cullum, I believe, Horwood,Culllm' and ~uihan, in some such order,have been appointed for the detailed planning of phase one and for the overall concentual planning of the entire institute. That is with respect to that. That is the Polytech.

The other with reference to the residences for the College of Trades, no commitment was made that there would be residences available in September. I mean that would have been literally impossible if land were there or were already vested in the government and everything else. If it was, work would begin as soon as feasible and as soon as possible. There have been a number of meetings with the College of Trades including a liaison group of students.

The situation is with respect to the acquisition of the land as I mentioned a few minutes ago, There have been in these discussions between a representative group from the Students' Union and the Department of Education, one of the things that have gone into there is to have the student input from the point of view of the design of the residences, the type of accommodation because there are a n!Dllber of possibilities in that connection. With respect to the acquisition of the land, the situation is as I just outlined . 7791

.June 25, 1975. Tape 2702 RH - 2 MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, another question in the continued absense of the Minister of Puhlic Works to the Mini!lter of Health. Would the minister indicate whether architects have as yet been appointed for the proposed new hospitals at Clarenville and on the Burin Peninsula? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Health. MR. WELLS: Mr. Speaker, I cannot say at this time but I will contact the Department of Public Works and endeavour to find the answer. MR . SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Bell Island. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the ~inister of Municipal Affairs' and Housing, Sir, would care to comment on a statement Qde by the Mayor of Mount Pearl that this may be the last year that Mount Pearl would function under a municipality, that it made be placed under a trusteeship? Would the minister care to col!1Dlent on that? MR. SPEAKER: The honourahle Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. HON. B. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, in the last three or four months I have heard quite a municipalities who have indicated,or one of their spokesmen or mayor or councillor have indicated same.

I have not seen those comments by - was it the mayor you said? MR. NF.MY: Yes. MR. PECKFORD: - by the mayor and I am not aware that the - ~~l')EAR~: No, councillor, councillor as a matter of fact, Councillor Lidstone. MR. PECICFORD: Okay. Oh, \\Tell! ~ ..:.. EVANS: Another Liberal candidate! ~'R. PECKFORD: Rir,ht. MR. NEARY: There it is, look. MR. PECKFORD: My own reaction to that, Mr. Speaker, is simply that to my knowledge the town of Mount 'Pearl is not in the financial position or situation that would dictate that within a year or so that it would have to come under trusteeship.

I do not know from whence he speaks. 7792

June 25, 1975. Tape 2702 RIT - 3 ~- SPEAKER: The honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBER.TS: Mr. Speaker, a further question on the hospital decision. This t:1.!ne, I think the Pemier WQuld be the one who could answer it, Would the Premier confirm that the pro.1ects to build the hospitals at Clarenville and on the Burin Peninsula would be carried out by public tenders or will they be carried out by a, should I say, how to put it - I could use a lot of terms, a sweetheart deal, but let us say a management concept of some sort. I forget the exact te~.

But will we - project manager - will we do them by public tenders or will we hJve another Craig Dobbin situation, Sir? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable t.he Premier. PREMIER ~ORES: That is a ridiculous ending of what started out to be a sensible question, Mr. Speak.et. The fact is I do not knm, of any hospitals t .hat Mr. Dobbin built. I know of lots that Mr. Smallwood and friends built. But wha.t J: will say is that regarding the construction of hospital the Public Tendering Act or 7793

Tune ?5, 1975 Tape 2703 (afternoon) IB-1 the puhl 1 c propnsRl 1-, :iserl on speci f:l.c plans j s some thing that has not h<'en neci clerl. The ori Binal college that was built in Corner Brook WRS a hRppy experience from the business of the time factor in construction and for the no overruns on cost. That did work well.

Rut i:-ather than have a hlanket poHcy that would be that way, T think :It is something that government has to look at and as has heen illustraterl on many occasions it will be public tendering- or public proposals hut in the main public tendering for all government institutions and government building. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Bell Island. MR. NFARY: Mr.

SpeRker, I wonder if the "!inister of Fisheries Sir, would the tell the House if he. has received a request from fishermen in llryants Cove, Upper Island Cove and Heart's Desire in the Trinity Bay area for assistance for loss of gear and boats in a recent storm in that particular part of Concept:!.on Bay and Trinity Bay? MR. SPEAKER: 1-'ll. CROSRIF.: The honourable Minister of Fisheries. }Ir. Speaker, the honourable gentleman is an assiduous reader of the newspapers I notice.

T believe there was a letter perhaps from one or all of those gentlemen mentioned in the paper who wrote about the boats they had lost - I think it was boats - and asked if the government had any programme to replace their boats. \.1ell, the answer quite clearly is government has no programme to replace thei.r boats, No government of Newfoundland ever did have a ~rogra~me to replace boats lost by storm. And boats can be insurerl.

We have a Fisheries Loan Board that will make loans to replace the boats hut there is no government programme, federal, rrov:!nciRl or in any province which completely guarantees fishermen or anyone else against loss of their property such as boats. So I think there were some letters from the gentlemen you mentioned. TI1e report in the paper asked the govenment to reolace their boats and the answer quite clearly was and is that we have no programme to replace boats, We cannot replace boats, but that the Fisheries Loan Boarc:' has a generous programme of loans and so on for that nurpose.

So we were not ahle to replace their boats as they reauested 7794

June 25, 1975 Tape 2703 (afternoon) IR-:! MR.NEARY: Vr. Speaker, as this may be the last opportunity, Sir, I will have to put this question to the Minister of Tour:lsm. I wonder if the minister could tell the House whether or not the Norma and Gladys has had her trial runs and when she will be getting underway for Honolulu and Tokyo and points West? SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS : Oh , oh ! MR. HICKEY: She has not had any trials yet. MR. NEARY: Well, would the minister care to give the House 1'! progress report on what is happen:lnp, now concern:lnr: this trip /'!round the world hy the Norma and r.ladys? _§OME HON.

MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Tourism. HON. T. llICltEY (~INISTER OF TOURISM): ~r. Speaker, as Solomon said, there is nothing new under the sun. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the mtn:lst.er, Sir. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: Will the minister tell the House whether she :Is going tn be piggybacked to Honolulu and Tokyo or whet.her she is going to be carried in the swim111ing pool of the Queen E. II or will she go on her own steam? MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I have already reacted to the suggest:lon about piggybacking.

As to what I woulc1 like to see piggybacked, :l t is not the Norma and Gladys. MR. NEARY: The minister is rather nasty today, Sir. Mr, Speaker, I think it is only fair that I should ask the !'-finister of ManpoWl"T and Industrial Relat:lons to bring us up to date on the strike situation in the Province, the number of work interruptions in the Province ac the present time, and what :Is being done hy the minister's department to try to bring about a settlement of these disputes? 7795

J une ?.5, 1975 Tape 2703 (afternoon) IB-3 HR. SPEAKE?: Orde r, please! Th:it quel':tion . could require a rather lengthly answer. l f the minister intends to make it brief, I shall permit him t o answer . MR . NEARY: Sure . C.o ahead . Take all the time he "'ants. MR. MAYNt,ll.n: I think, ~r. Spea.~er , the member is. well aware of ,,ha t is beinp: done by the department to try to solve some of the lah our disputes in the ProvincP. and therefore the question is an entirely stupid one and not worthy of an answer. MP.. NEAllY: Mr. Speal<e r, perhaps I will have to take them individually, Si r .

Would the mtnister tell us what :Is happening concerning t his long-drawn-ou t dispute in Wabush? Is thei:e any possibility of ~ett:!n p. it settled and getting the men back to work down thei:e? What is t;he minist er's department doing about that strike? }Ill. SPEAKER: Rel11tfons. 1-fR. MA'lNARD: The honourable iiinister of Manpower and Industrial We have had our departmen t staff made available to botl, parries in Wahush since the negotiations started back in .Tanuary . They have used the services of our concil tation officers. The y have not come, to an agreem ent at this point in time.

There i s no move being made by either party to try to resolve t he nisp ute. There :Is no thinr, more that we can do except offer our !'<P.rvices :md make it 11vailahle ••henever it is needed o r requested thl' parties . "IR. NEARY: ¥r. Speaker, does the minister not think it would be worth his while for the minister to personally get involved in th at 7796

June 25, 1975 Tape 2704 (Afternoon) PK - 1 dispute because it is such a serious matter and is affecting the - HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! The Hon. Member for Bell Island is proceeding to make a speech. ~- NEARY: No. noes the minister t~ink that he should not personally get involved in that dispute rather than just pawn it off on one of the conciliation officers? HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the minister all of a sudden has become mute. Would the minister tell us then what is happening in St. La'WI"ence concerning that strike?

Is there any effort being made to try and get the parties back to the bargaining table to resolve that dispute? MR. SPF.AKER: MR. MAYNARD: The Hon. Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations. Mr. Speaker, we have sorue:.thing in the vicinity of fifty to sixty sets of negotiations on•going now or strikes in progress in the Province, and our department is involved in each and every one. I am involved personally to a certain extent in each and every one. We are doing what we can to bring the two parties together at all times, whether at St.

Lawrence, Wabush, ERCO or wherever it is, If the honourable gentleman does not feel that is enough then maybe he will get this opportunity some time in the next twenty-five to thirty years to get back there and try to do something himself. But we are doing whatever is possible. We have a good,competent staff in the department. There is not many of them, but they are doing everything they can to bring about settlements to the labour dispute. Mr.

Speaker, what about the plumbers and pipefitters strike that is tying up practically the whole construction industry[ Does the minister think it is worth his while to get involved into that one ' that is affecting the economy of Newfoundland so greatly? MR. MAYNARD: ·--- ··---- Mr. Speaker, I just said to the honourable member that we are involved,all of us,in every strike, every dispute that is goi-6.g on in the Province. I do not know what the honourable gentleman is beating his gums about. We are beinr, involved. We are involved already and have been from the day one when negotiations started. 779·1

June 25, 1975 Tape 2704 (Afternoon) PK - 2 _MR. NEARY: Would the min:l.ster care to tell the House that he is personally involved in the Canadian Tire dispute on Elizabeth Avenue where scabs are being brought in - MR. MAYNARD: Do not be so foolish. MR. NEARY: - to the Canadian Tire operation down there on Elizabeth Avenue? MR. SPEAKER: --- --- Order, please! MR. NEARY: Could the minister tell us if he is involved in that one? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! This question should be placed on the Order Paper. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr.

Speaker, would the Minister of Health care to tell us if he is still optimistic that there will not be a strike in the hosnitals or that the nurses will not go on strike. What is happening concerning negotiations? Has he received a report of the Conciliation Board yet? What is the outlook as far as tte hospitals are concerned in their labour negotiations? MR. WELLS: Yes, I would be very pleased to, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Health. MR .IIBLLS: As the House knovs the Department of Health is not directly re9ponsible for the negotiations. These are carried out by Treasury Bo~rd.

The position is that the hospital workers have exercised restraint, thev have elected to go hy the proper process. The Conciliation Board Rep0- · '.s in the hands of both parties now and is being examined by th~m and there are various time periods set out in the report. At this stage both parties are considering the report and as far as I know they have yet to have any contact. MR. NEARY: Is that the two groups of nurses or the hospital workers? ~WE LLS: No.I am thinking of the hospital workers now, The nurses are not yet to that stage,as I understand. This is the hospital workers and Treasury Board.

And, of course, the Department of Health in a sense is in the middle, Mr. Speaker, but we are hopeful that the Conciliation Roard ' s Report can form the basis of a settlement to this matter. 1,m. SPEAKER: Order, please. The thirty minutes allocated for the ciuestiol'. pr--riod has exi:,ired. 7798

June 25 , 1975 Tape 2704 (Afternoon) PK - 3 MR. mwtY: Oh fii1 God where did the t:lme go? ORDERS OF THE DAY On motion, a bill, "An Act To Provide For The Reversion To The Province Of Certain Mineral Lands ln Labrador," (Bill No. 86) read a thi-rd time and ordered passed and title be as on the llrder .Paper. On motion tha.t the House resolve itself iuto a CQl!llllittee of the Whole on the said bill, and I invite the Hon. Member for Placentia East to take the Chair for Conmittee, please. Mr. Speaker, left the Chair. COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE A bill, "An Act Furthe~ To Amend The Highway Traffic Act". (Rill No. 84). 7799

Jun ~ 25, 1975, Tape 2705, Page 1 -- apb On motion clauses 1 through 4, carried. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall clause 5 carry? MR. CROSBIE: Clause 5, Mr, Chairman. On page 7 which deals with the new clause 78(a), there should be added at the end a subclause 2, after tieutenant-Governor-in-Council the words, "and each member of the Board shall hold office during good behaviour for the term prescribed by the Lieutenant Governor-in-Council in the order appointing him, or in some later order,and is eligible for reappointment." MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, a question on that.

I well remember the matter was debated on second reading but should there not be a length put on the term? I mean, in theory the Lieutenant­ Governor could appoint a man for, say 100 years, and that is absurd, but should it not be a set term, not to exceed,say,three years? And then the first lot would be a one year and a two year and a three vear so we would have the staggered principle coming into effect of which the minister spoke when he closed second reading, and then, you know, each three years either people could be reappointed or not. Surely there should be a limit placed on the term. 1-!R. HICKMAN: Mr.

Chairman, I should like to respond to that. I-!~ had a very thorough check made of similar legislation passed by t his Legislature where this amendment is included, and I am advised that tn the one that has worked very effectively,in the Medicare C -7is s ion Act, the Ar.t itself does not set the term . The Order-in­ Council sets the term and staggers the term of those who are appointed• It is not party of the legislation. It is appropriate that the legislation provide that they shall hold office for the term prescribed by the Lieutenant Governor-in-Council. On motion, clause 5 as amended, carried.

On motion clauses 6 through 7, carried. On motion, bill 84 with amendment, carried. Bill No. 85, "An Act Further To Amend The Automobile Insurance Act." 0n motion clauses 1 through 3, carried. 7800

June 25, 1975, Tape 2705, Page 2 -- apb MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall clause 4 carry? MR. CROSBIE: Clause 4, Mr. Chairman; in clause 2 of the new clause 45 you have to delete the words "office dur1.nl\ pleasure" or whatever they say there and put after Lieutenant­ Governor-in-Council "that each member of the Board shall hold office during good behaviour for the term prescribed by the Lieutenant Governor-in-Council in the order appointing him, or in some later order, and is eligible for reappointment. On motion, clause 4 as amended, carried. On motion clause 5, carried. On motion bill No. 85 with amendment, carried.

On motion that the Committee rise, repo~t progress and ask leave to sit again, Mr. Speaker returned to the Chair. MR. CHAIRMAN: ~r. Speaker, the Committee of the Whole has considered the matters to them referred and have passed the follmdnr, bills with some amendment. Bill No. R4 "An Act Further To Amend The Highway Traffic Act" and Bill No. 85 "An Act Further To Amend '!'he Automohile Insurance Act," and ask leave to sit again. MR.

SPEAKER: The Chairman of the Committee of the Whole reports that they have considered the matters to them referred and report having passed bill No. 84 and Bill No. 85 with some amendment and ask leave to sit again. On motion report received and adopted. On motion read a first and second readings of amendments. On motion bill No. 84 read a third time, ordered passed and its title be as on the Order Paper.

June 2 5 , 19 7 5 Tape 2706 (afternoon) On motion a hi 11, "An Act Further To Amend The Automobile Insurance Act,'' read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. IB-1 Motion second reading of a bill, "An Act To Revise Existing Legislation Respecting The Fishing Industry Advisory Board." lfR . SPE /IKF.R: The honourahle Minister of Fisheries. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I rise to move second reading of this h:111. The House may recall that in 1971 there was a Fishing Industry Collective Bargaining Act passed by the House of Assembly to deal with collective bargaining in the fishing industry. There was a

section :In that legislat:lon which provided for a Fishing Industry Advisory Board whose function was supposerl to be to provide impartial information, I think the real purpose of it was,to parties tn collective bargaining, the union representing the fishermen and the fish processors, I suppose, on the other side, an :Impartial source of information so that there would be some idea of what the marketing situation was and what fish plant costs were and processing costs and therefore what price the companies could afford to pay the fishermen for fish.

Th:ls was the general principle or purpose of the hoard envisaged in that legislation. Now, the legislation itself as proclaimed for the Fishing Industry Advisory Board was not appointed until last Fall. Mr. Fupert P1!"ince was appointed cha:! rman. '!'here had been an attempt to appoint a chairman some months before that, ~r. Anderson, a former manager of the Royal Bank of Canada hut he became discouraged hy the possible taslc that lay hefore him before assuming office and theup:ht better of it and <lid not want to accept appointment hefore that. Pat Antle was appointec1 a member of the board ,ma ~r.

Gar Pvnn of the faculty of commerce at ~femodal University. MR. ROBERTS: ~ave thPy reee:1.ved any payments for their term? l"T-'. CRO<;RJE: Ne, hut they are entitled now to receive whatever the persons appointed to boarc1s receive. · It is a per diem. so much for half a day, so much a day when the hoard meets. l'IB. J10Hl,RT~: '-'r. Antle will be on the board then? 7802

June 25, 1975 Tape 2701, (afternoon) rn-2 _Jm.. CROSBIE: No, ~r. Antle has since resigned from the Fishing Industry Advisory Board, Mr. Speaker, because of his health. He is not in good health and could not - he resigned there, I dn not know, I suppose jt was, I think, three or fnur months ago. Now, the previous legislation did not really provide ~ny powers for the F'ishinc Indus try Advisory Board, and they had no powers to subpoena ir formation and there was very 11 ttle s11id in the legislation about what their power should be or about what they should do.

And as to whether or not they could ever perform an effective role in that role only, anyway, I think was open to some question. Anyway the bill now before the House prov:! des for the establishement of the Fishing Industry Advisory Board on a pernanenr basis and it contains provisions that will outline their powers and duties. The hill provides for the Fishing Industry Advisory Board with a membership of three or such greater number of members as the Lieutenant-Governor in Council prescribes. At the moment the intention is to have three.

There will be confirmed as Chairman of the board if the legislation is passed Mr. ~upert Prince, former Deputy Minister of Fisheries, and as a member of the hoard ''r. C,ar Pynnof the faculty of commerce of Memorial University, and a thir<1 will be appointed. There may be several other members appointed later but the intention at the moment is to have three members. The chairman of the board would be ~r. Rupert Prince who shall devote his whole time and attention to the business of the hoard and not engage in any other occupation.

The other members of the board of course will he people who have other occupations and they will serve in a part-time capacity. The secretary of. the board will be ~r. F.A.J. Laws, the former managing director of NAFEL and who has since worked with the Department of Fisheries of the Province with several years as a special assistant 7803

June 25, 1975 Tape No. 2707 NM - 1 ,md who i.s an excellent and a most capable man. He has agreed to stay with the board, in fact he is w0rking with the board now for several years. He is approaching retirement age but he has agreed to stay with the board I th ink it is for two years and he and l"r. Rupert Prince are now established in the offices of the board which is in the, I have not visited the offices but is somewhere nLar O'Leary Avenue or out in that direction but the board now has its own offices and Mr. Laws and Mr. Prince are working there in acquiring a staff and the like.

The board is to have the usual rights of perpetual succession, th(• common seal and so on. The legislation prescribes that a member of the board cannot have any interest in or. be connected with any business or enterprise that is engaged or connected with the fishing industry, nor any interest in or connection with any person or associations of persons having an interest in or connected with the fishing industry. In other words they are not to be involved in the fishing industry or in a union that would have membership in the fishinr, industry to a·void any possibility of conflict of interest.

The functions of tl1e bnanl <1re described in

section 7 and their main function is going to be to collect, compile and record information and statistics respecting the fishing industry, including information relating to catching, buying, selling, producing, processing, exporting, marketing, operational costs, labour costs and the pricing of fish and fish products and any other information relating to the fishing jndustry,whether the foregoing kinds or not and to institute and direct research and to analyse and evaluate agreements and contracts connected with the fj shing industry, markets and marketing methods and federal provincial or joint federal-provincial policies or programmes for the fishing industry and to report and advise the Minister of Fisheries on those matters and that information can be made available by publication or by exchange with departments of the Government of Canada or other provinces a~d it can be given to other people involved in the fishing industry. 7804

June 25, 1975 Tape No. 2707 NM - 2 Now the whole idea of the board will be to have an independent outside board whose task will be to get full infor'lllation on what costs are on every aspect of the fishing industry in Newfoundland from the catching to every aspect of processing in all of the plants of the Island and to independently evaluate what the marketing situation is in the United States or anywhere else in the world so that when government is contemplating a programme,or when there is collective bargaining, collective bargaining dispute or whatever, there will be this independent source of information available, instantly available, that the board will be able to produce for the contesting parties or for government so that studies will not have to be initiated then to see what costs are or what is happening.

This information will all be available and constantly reviewed, and constantly renewed by the members of the industry to the board. That is the purpose of the board. I will come back to that in a few minutes. Then I will finish surveying the legislation. So this board is to have, and is to obtain and compile information on every aspect of the industry and the costs of every aspect of the industry, or any agreements entered into by the industry.

Section ten provides the right to obtain information and it applies to all businesses or enterprises in the fishing business except those who operate only as retail outlets, including buying, selling, catching process and so on and so forth. The persons who have the control, custody or possession of the accounts, documents or records relating to the business at the written request of the Chairman have to provide copies or any other information that they request to the board and to the Chairman and grant access to them for purposes of an examination by an employee of the board.

So that the act gives a board the right to obtain information on a compulsory basis if that is needed. It is not contemplated that it ever will be needed but there may be some cases where compulsory powers are necessary. The board is to keep individual returns secret except to the minister or persons authorized by him. In other words the individual return of any one company, or what the costs are of any one comp,m y or the profits or losses of that company or what its exact position is. 780S

lunP J',, 1975. T,rne '.!.70f> 'PH - l Tt is not intcnde<l that t h is i.nfonnation he '-'.iven to the flUhlic at 1 ;irp.c-. The informatl on would he }cert P,eneral and costs would be b•nt p.eneral, the cost,; of the induo;trv, not the affairs of any n c1rtirulnr company made public by the hoard. Then there ;ire provisions here; the financial year of thP hoard, thev have to 1,civp their Pstimate>o; vote>d hv th e> House> everv year, submit a hndq;et to the minister and all thE' usual clauses ,ire there. A rerort is to be laid before the House of Ai;sembly every year.

Fin,mcial statements setting forth their assets and liabilities, t h01r rec e 1nts and e?(penditures for the orevious yE'ar, their report concerning the work of the board for the previous year is to Laid heforP the House within fifteen days after the House opens or riftPPn days after they are submitted to the minister. They ilr<" to keen rep;ular minutes. thf' Auditor r.rneral audits their books. 1 hl'l trve, Mr. Spellker, tluise are the main nrovislons. Spctton (? 0 ) nrovldes the renalties for anvone who refuses to <'omp l v Pith ,'l re11uest made under sect1.on (ln). lf they do they arr l [abl e on

summary conviction to a fine not exceeding $2,000 for evf.' rv dav that the offense continues and so on to insure that t 1, e in f or,:,,1ti.on is forthcoming. So that 1s the general outline n f th C' tE'rms of the bill, Mr. Speaker. clow. the hoard has heen opC'rating and lu1s been getting itself <'rr,1ni zc-cl .,nd we have rrovided in the estim.'ltes thi:s vear an amount .,f ~"'il,, nnn for the oper;ition of the board. The hoard is now gC'ttlng its organization set up. Thev intend to have a marketing s r c tion.

Thry have retained their own independent source of information in the Boston area for markf'ting so thev will keeo c omplete track of what i:s hanpeninr, in the mllrketi.ng situation in thP 11nited Stlltes. They are going to have a socio-economic hr,mch whi,h includes covering th" markPtinr,. Th,. marketing unit :ind the- ,socl o-economic branch wi.11 keeo tra ck of ~Jhat i!' happening 780b

June 25, 1975. Tape 2708 RH - 2 in the Newfoundland fishing industry from the time fish is caught to the time fish is marketed. The board has retained ~r. D.F. Lunnen, a chartered accountant with a lot of experience in the fishing business in Newfoundland to start the business of gathering and tabulating all data relating to cost of fish, production from all sectors of the industry. That business is now underway. Mr. Lunnen who has his own consulting firm, D.F. Lunnen Limited, is now carrying that out for the board.

He is visiting every fish company in the Province and discussing with them their accounting systems and costing information. He is going to develop as a result of all of his visits and his own experience a standard set of reports and reporting forms that each firm is to make to the board periodically, so that when you get the information from fish company "X" you will be able to compare it with the information you got from fish company "Y". It will be all collected and analyzed on the same basis so that you are comparing the same kind of information.

He is going to evaluate cost and information pertinent to the final production cost of a pound of fish, including raw material, cost, direct labour, overheads and so on . He is making a personal visit to each fish plant, to question the operator in detail with respect to their methods, a cost gathering reoorting. A profile is going to be drawn up of each plant and its accounting capabilities and costing methods, evaluation of the information gathered including consideration of any suggestions or criticisms that the operators offer.

He is to prepare costing models that would apply to the various species and packs in each plant, develop adequate reporting forms to be filled in by the operators and submitted to the board on a regular basis and recommend the permanent trained staff and how they will follow this up and keep it all accurate and up to date from time to time. Now that work is already underway. I wrote all the fish 7807

J une 2!', , l97S. Tape 270/I nroduceri; in the Province ~everal weeks ago to reouest their co­ operation. /\s far as I know thev ore all co- operating and there '1.'ls not hl'Pn anv dtfficul tv. Now. up to this stage, of course, t hP hoord hns not hnd any le~al power to force any of these concerns to give in(onn.1tion. but they all have been doi~ it. t hel JE'V<' that the industry no, see11 that t here is no point protestfoi: about thi.s , th11t the indui;try is in a 1>osition where Lt has to he assisted by i:overnmcnt because it certainly does t"ais y<'llr 7808 RH - 3

June 25, 1975, Tape 2709, Page 1 -- apb and it is going to have to be for the next three or four years at least, assuming we get the resource back in shape again. that they have to give full information to the governments who are involved 1 and they are going to do that. Now we are not the only government who is doinp. that.

The federal government has their Audit Bureau, who have done the same kinds of studies in connection with the present subsidy programme, and I have also asked the Fishing Industry Advisory Board if they can handle the matter of auditing all of the Queen crab processing plants to whom we are offering the assistance that I described in the House last night, Xr. Speaker.

Just to mention that briefly, I said last night that in order to get the crab processing industry of Newfoundland operating, they have not been operating since the beginning of May, because the operators say they are only able to pay between eight and ten cents a pound for crab and the fishermen will not fish for that. We have told both parties that we, the government of Newfoundland will pay four cents a pound in addition as long as the plant operators pay ten cents a pound so that the fishermen will get fourteen cents a pound for crab for the next month.

While we are waiting to see what action if any the federal government takes in this situation, and I mentioned this last night to the House, we have informed the crab processors that as a part of our proposal for making this assistance available we are going to do an audit of each of the crab processing plants in the Province of which there are nine.

Any of those who buy crab from the fishermen, who are assisted by us to pay an additional four cents to the fishermen will be audited so we can see whether or not they,in fact, cannot afford to pay any more than ten cents per pound to the crab fishermen or whether they can pay more than that. And we will be examining the market and we will be auditing their books to see just what their costs are and whether or not it is in fact true.that their contention is true that they cannot afford to pay any more. We are not just going to make the assistance available without this kind of check. 7809

.Tune 25, 1975, '!'ape 27n9, 'Page 2 -- apb Now the federal government is doing exactly the same thinp,. They are auditing the Oueen crab operators in New Brunswick who have re~uested federal assistance , which the federal government has not ~iven as yet, And they are going to do an audit on two crah processing plants in Newfoundland as well as on the operating costs of crab fishing boats in Newfoundland. But we are going to go on and do an audit on the rest of them provided they open this year. Ard the assistance that we have offered is being paid to the fishermen.

So the proper agency to do that would be the Fishing Tndustry Advisory Boar~. They should have the staff and the facilitiP.s to do that and we are asking them to see if they can do this audit for us on the crab processing plants. It may rurn out, Mr. Speaker, once that audit is done that the crab processors may he right when they say they cannot even now afford to pay ten cents per pound.

But at least the facts will he established by an independert agency that should be beyond reproach or accusation by any party, and it should be independent, And we have an indenendent source of information, Can they afford to pay more or can they not? What is the cost of each aspect of the oneration? Are the costs in the crah plant X the same as in crab pJ ant Y and why are thev different 2nd so on? We will have all that information. So the Board is already operating but it has not had l ~r~ J teeth, you might call it, legal power to force anyone to give thP. information.

But so far to date everybody has given the information voluntarily. r:opies of the legislation were sent, 1"'r. Spc~ker, to the union and to the Fish Trades Association. I have not heard back in writinp, from them. They were given this about two weeks ago. But I have heard from ~r. Cashin and he did meet with Mr. Prince and the legislation has the general approval of the Newfoundland Fishermen Food And Allied Workers' Union, I have received no serious objection from the Fish Trades Association as yet, so I suppose they find it basically all right.

There was some su~gestion that the - I believe they did su~gest that the Board should onlv hnv~ power to demand cost information when the companies were 7810

June 25, 1975, Tape 2709, Page 3 -- aph receiving assistance and not when they were not . Bue that was not a suggestion that we could accent, because whether the industry is receiving assistance or not, or whether they are good times or poor time, we now need accurate infoI'1Ilation on all these matters, at all times,good or bad,so chat if the bad times come and government assistance is required we have all the information from an imj>artial source and there can he no dispute ahout what costs are and what the marketing prices are 7811

June 25, l'l75 Tape 2710 (afternoon) and who is p,ett1ng what or are there rip-offs or can fishennen he oai d more or not or where the suhs1 dy should go and the like. rn.:1 !'o that is the purpose of thP. hill, Mr. Speaker. The legislation as it was nassed in 1Q71 was defective. I think the board will be on much sounder footing if this legislation is passed.

T thin! : they can clo a very competent joh and if they do their job competentlv and properly :md the whole thing functions properly, ~ny occasion, say next year once they are properly set up and we or the r.overnment of ranada, for that matter, need accurate information on what costs are or prices 1n any aspect of the industry, lt should all he there ln thf' fishing Industry }!arketing Board for llS. Or if there is a need for its use in collective bargaining, it will he awdlable for J,oth sides in collective bargaining or ,mynne Pho has a proper interest in it. Tlierefore, Mr.

Speaker, T am very hapry to move second rearUng of the legislation. 'TT!. Sl''F/\Kl'l': The honourable Leader of the Opposition. MP. POTIF.RT!': l'fr. Rpeaker, in the lat.e Hinter anrt ~prinR of 1971 there arose in the Province what has turned out to be one of the most s1pn1ficant social and economic and possihly political movements that T thi.nk ~'e have ever seen, a movement which, 1: think it is f,,1 r to say, t.1111 leave . an even ~reater 1mpact upnn this Province than rli ,; thf' Fishermen's T'rotective Movement led by Sir William ~oaker.

T am tal"ing of course aJ,out the movement. among our f:l.shenTIPn to become unionized, to fot"m themselves into unions and to 1' a r3a:!n collectively to take advantage of the adage that, you 1, nm,•, tl•e union makes us strong and in union there is strength. \,!J,en that movement bPgan, and I think it is fa:! r to say it came sr>ontaneo115ly frr>m the fisheTT11en, guided an<l led by men such as 1":ither Pc smond '·•cr.rath,who was then and is still the parish priest ,it Port .~aunt1ers on the North West r.oast, the Northern oart of the rrcsent St. flarhP South district.; and Richard Cashin. a vouno: St • .

John's man w1.th very deep roots :!n the Province. These man and others 7812

June 25, 1975 Tape 2710 (afternoon) TR-2 joined together to shape that movement anc1 to guide :It. Very quickly it became obvious that if the movement was to have any chancP of success it would have to have a legislat:lve framework within 1,•hich it could operate, not legislation tl1a t would require collective barga:lninr, but legislation that wouln permit collect:! ve barr,a:ln:1 ng and would lay down the ground rules. The government of the nay, the gentleman from Rell Islanc1 and myself among them, very qu:lckly developed leg:lslat:lon.

The late Aust:ln Parsons did most of the draft:lng on :It, and I think within the difficulties which were faced it was a rnnn piece of legislation. The bill went through the Fouse I think very quickly and I think it went through the !-louse with the unanimous support of every member.

One of the most difficult provis:lons that was faced in developing the collective bargaining legislation for fishermen was the question of how we would be able to ohtain information on what it really cost to operate in the fishing business in this Province and 1 in other words, from that could be drawn the :Information of just how much the companies could afford to pay.

The unions, very highly responsihle men and women with highly responsihle leadership, realized full well that you cannot get blood from a turnip, But equally, Sir, they were determined tn ensure that they got as much as they could get :In a fair and a legitimate way. Well, Sir, that conundrum was the genesis of the creation of the Fishing Industry Advisory Board as it existed,or as it exists in the legislation, the

section 51 of the old le3i slat ion, the Fishing Industry 1-nllective Bargaining Act. The hoarrl was r,iven no subpoena powers. I do not know why. I do not think the m11tter was subjected to any comment in the House by any honorable gentleman who spoke in that dehate nor was it the suhject of comment to my knowledge and recollection by any of the other hodies who were consulted includ1nic the "F'ishennen' s Un:lon and the trade as well. In any event, S:lr, whether it was for that reason or not the Fishing Industry Advisory Roard emerged as a child ,,j thout any teeth, 7813

.Tune 25, 1Q75 Tare 2710 (afternoon) IB-3 a board ,._,:fthout any pc,wers to enforce its enquiries and its power to try to ohtain information it needed. The board was not appointed by the Liberal Administration. The act came into effect, I asswne, late fo July or early -tn August - I do not know the exact date - quite late that Summer. The election was held late in October, as Your Honour will 7814

June 25, 1975 Tape 2711 (Afternoon) PK - 1 recall, and then there was the interesting interregnum period resulting in the resigning - resignation. I am sorry - of the Smallwood administration in January and the formation of the first administration led by the present Premier. The government came into office in January 1972, and they too did not apppoint a hoard for more than two years. I suspect nearly three vears went by before any movement was made towards appointing a board under the provisions of the act.

There were a number of statements made by ministers, presUIJl8bly speaking in behalf of the ministry which said that the board would need subpoe~a power, but the fact remains that no legislation came in before the House. This is the first piece which we have had. The minister is now taking a different tack aad I think he is taking a better tack.

The act before us now,or the bill before us now will in effect delete the old Fishing Industry Advisory Board from the statutes of this Province and will create an entirely new body, one which is a separate corporation and one which has the powers and the responsibilities spelled out in the bill which the minister just introduced. My colleagues and I are quite willing to support it. It is a piece of enabling legislation.

It could be a very valuable piece of legislation, because the big question that must be dealt with in any questioning of bargaining in the fishing industry is the old one of how much can we afford to pay. And then growing out of that equally great question, what is a fair return? As far as I know every part of the fishing industry in Newfoundland and Labrador is subsidized, some to a greater extent and others to a lesser extent. They have been subsidized almost continuously over the years, I suppose as long as there has been a fishing organization.

That in itself gives us the right as a government and as a legislature to decide and to seek out the information as to what rate of profit they -are making and as to what rate of return they are making on their invest and as to what their expenditures are and as to whether or not their expenditures are reasonable in all of the circumstances 1 precisely the tvpe of information which this Board will obtain. It is not a matter of regulating an 7815

June 25, 1975 Tape 2711 (Afternoon) PK - 2 industry, Sir, as with the utilities industry or with the automobile insurance industry, That is not what we are attempting to do here. It is not a matter of nationalizing an industry. That is a separate matter altogether. What we are doing here is setting up a legislative hody with the power, and the J)Ower to carry out a duty. and the duty is to determine exactly what are the true economic facts with relation to the fishing industry. The powers are spelled out in the bill. I do not need to repeat them. The minister referred to them. And Section (7) is the important

section in that sense because it sets forth the functions and duties of the hoard. It could be an i1!Ullensihly valuable board, Sir. We are going to have collective bargaining in the industry, in the fishing industry for years to come, and so we should have, Indeed I suppose it is inconceivable that we will ever see a fishing industry now without collective bargaining. We have not as yet seen full collective bargaining. We have seen it in respect of the plants.

We have seen it in respect of the trawler operators, and in each case, Sir, it was a titanic struggle and the union by sticking to their guns and because their cause was right won their day. The third sector of the industry, Sir, only now are we beginning to see the evolution of meaningful collective bargaining, and that of course is the traditional inshore fishery. Within the past few months the NFFAWU upder Mr. Caehin's leadership has been certified in respect of fishermen in large areas of the Province.

As Your Honour is aware the certification procedure is geographic and that is really the only way it could be, An inshore fishermen is at liberty to sell his fish where he wishes and in many parts of the Province they sell to more than one purchaser. So to certify merely by employer would not in itself be meaningful. So the Labour Relations Board within the Collective Bargaining Act)and this was the way it was worked out originally in 1971, now certifies the union in respect of geographic units.

There have been a number of representation votes held, and one sees reports of them in the newspapers, I think , in each case the NFFAWU has overwhelmingly won the support of the fishermen e!b:ible to 7816

June 25, 1975 Tape 2711 (Afternoon) PK - 3 vote in the area in which the vote is being held. So obviously, Sir, we are moving into collective bargaining in that final phase of the industry, the traditional inshore fishery and that in itself is a step forward and one to be welcomed. 7811

June 25, 1975. Tape 2712 RH - 1 So we will shortly be at the point where every fisherman in Newfound­ land, Sir, is part of the collective bargaining process. On the other hand, on the other side, every purchaser of fish in Newfoundland will be part of the collective bargaining process. The act itself, the Fishing Industry Collective Bargaining Act is working well but I believe it could work better. Certainly there is a good case to he made for some legislation to revise some aspects of that.

I would he very happy if the minister would make a commitment that he would have that looked into and that he would invite representations from the union and from the companies as to what changes they think should be made. The act is working but it is certainly not working as we 11 as it should and as it could. Sir, the more important hole in the entire scheme is the loophole which hopefully this bill and the board it creates will fill. That is the matter of getting accurate information. I hope that the board makes full use of its powers. I think it has sufficient powers.

Indeed, if the Board chose to use its full powers I suspect it could get almost any information it wished because it has quite a hroad grant of powers and it has the rights spelled forth in the bill to enforce those powers. I do not think it will be abused. Boards are made up of men and women and I have a very great deal of confidence in the man who has been designated to be Chairman of the board, Mr. Rupert Prince. I suppose Mr. Prince probably knows as much as anybody in Newfoundland about the fishery and about public policy with respect to the fishery.

He has made a lifelong study of it and he has for many years been involved at different levels and different ways in forming public policy and I think always with success. Each case and each function has added to his reputation and to his achievements. Sir, I think the board will serve a good purpose. I hope out of it w1Jl come a hody of information which will be made available to the unions and to the companies and presumably publicly. I see 78!.8

June 25, 1975. Tape 2712 RH - 2 no reason why it should not be made public in the main. Competitive information, I suppose, is secret. But in an industr y as small as the fishing industry,and it is small, Mr. Speaker, in the sense that there are relatively few companies involved.

Indeed, if one looks at it there is a Fishery Products empire and there is the Lake empire which now includes the Russell enterprises, the Bonavista Cold Storage firm,and may or may not include the Marystown Fish Plant - the rumor is that the Lakes are going to try to buy that enterprise from its present owners, the Atlantic Sugar people -and then the n.c. Packers people. Really that is I suppose almost eighty or ninety per cent of the fish business in Newfoundland, those three or four large firms. Booth and B.C. Packers are both large firms. They are giant firms.

They are both international, what is it called, multinational giants? But each of them in Newfoundland iES relativelv small. We have the Fishery Products organization, we have the Lake organization, hath of them very large. I suppose those four bodies between them, Sir, or among them control eighty or eighty-five or ninety per cent of the fish produced in Newfoundland or the employment generated in the frozen fish end of the industry. So it is very important that we get the information. It is very important, Str, that the people have the information, the public have the information.

As I have said, in an industry that small, Mr. Speaker, everybody knows what everybody else is doing and I do not think there are any real secrets in line with competitive costs or anything else. I could go further although these companies in the main are private companies and do not produce public financial statements, I would be willing to wager that anybody connected with the industry in Newfoundland, even without access to information that has been obtained in an official manner, that anybody connected ~Tith the industry, Mr.

Speaker, has a pretty good indication, sav to the nearest $5,000 what the profit or loss position is of any company doing business in the fish business in Newfoundland in any given year. 7819

June 25, 1975. Tape 2712 RH - 3 So I think there is a case for having all of this information made public or if there is a great mass of it and perhaps too much to di11:est in the normal sense, certainly having sull'llllaries of it made public. After all, Sir, the fishery is of great concern to every Newfound lander . It employs about 20,000 people directly. That in itself is o f great significance.

But then one adds on to that the fact that in a very real sense to date, Sir, we have a f-ish industry in ilewfou ndland only because it is being supported ,nth public money, mainly Ottai.•a money.and maybe not enough Ottawa money, but if it were not for the Ottawa money that has been put in in the last few 1110nths 1 do not think we would have very much of a ti.sh business going today in Newfoundland. MR . CROSJ!IE: We would not have any ·fishing industry. Mll: ROBERTS: Well, the Mini s ter of Fisheries says we would not have any. I am glad he says it and I have no quarrel with that at all. l think he is right.

H it were not for the Ottawa money there would be no fish plants operating in Mewfoundland today. The only fish bu.'liness we would have is a few men out jigging, probably cross ­ handed , and a few boys cutting their tails and then a few quintals of salt fish being made in the odd harbour on a bawn here or a bawn there and sold around door to door as it was at points in the t ht rtt e~ - for what 7 0 .. 0 . \., '-

June 25, 1975 Tape No. 2713 NM - 1 $2 .50 a quintal fishermen got in the thirties1 And today fish is worth $1 a pound from the fisherman. If anybody tries to buy a quintal of fish it is worth ninety-five cents to $1 a pound for good, salt, shore cured, light salted fish. So, Mr. Speaker, I think the information should be made public and I think the fact so much public money goes into it is a further justification for making the information public. I think the people of this province have a right to know what fish companies are doing. I am not concerned about their intimate profits.

There must be some things sacred,and there must even be some things secret. But, Mr. Speaker, I think the people have a right to know what investment these companies have made in the industry and what investment the public are making in the industry and what rates of return are being enjoyed upon the capital used. That I believe is the most significant measure of economic success in this day and age, not the so-called profit that shows on a profit and loss statement, but rather the rate of return on the investment. I think we have a right to know that.

Maybe we have a right to know it all the more because as the years go by this House will see a long succession of fisheries companies in one way or another,coming befor ·e the government and before the public looking for more and more money. The industry may not want that but I think that is what is going to happen and I think the fishery for many years yet to come will be a very heavily subsidized industry. Indeed the argument is not whether or not it should be subsidized. The argument will be by how much it should be subsidized and on what terms? So I think, Mr.

Speaker, the board can serve a very useful purpose. I think that Mr. Prince is an admirable choice to head the board. I feel quite confident that with him as Chairman the board will get off on the right foot and get off to a good start. The information it produces could be of great use. It is not going to set the. price of fish. It is not going to set the price of labour in the fishery. But it will provide information on which those who are charged with negotiating the price of fish and those who are charged with negoitating the price of labour have the information at their disposal, 7821

June 25, 1975 Tape No. 2713 NH - 2 and the information to ensure that they arrive at the best possible decisions. The only other point I would make, Sir, is that this act too has in it that nefarious and omnipresent clause, members of the board holding office during pleasure. I have objected to it every time I have seen it. It keeps cropping up. The minister is noting it down. I hope that it uill be amended at committee stage. I really wish instructions could be given to the draftsmen.

I am not in a position to do it, not at the present time, but the instructions could be given and unless the Cabinet specifically directs that in a draft bill a board shall be appointed to hold office during pleasure, that the norm in the absence of any direction of the contrary, the norm, the normal way of proceeding would be that members of boards hold office on good behaviour for certain terms or for terms certain. This act here, and the minister did not put it in, all that happened was that the minister said to the draftsman, "Please prepare

an act with the following purposes in nrl,nd," and the draftsman quite properly put in certain powers of the board and,lo and beholdlone of the ones he puts in inevitably is each member of the board holds office during pleasure. Sir, I do not think it should be there and I would hope the minister will agree with my request to take it out when we come to committ ee stage. We did that earlier today with the Automobile Insurance Bill and the Highway Traffic Bill. So, Mr. Speaker, I do not think there is anything more needs to be said on it. The board will prove its value in action.

If it turns out not to have been valuable then we will have to take further steps,but I believe it will be of value. I am glad they are doing it now, the government are doing it now. It has taken them three and a half yen rs to 11:et to this point. It is an inexcusable delay. I do not blame the present minister for it. He has been in office only a relatively few months and I will give r.im the credit for getting it this far and getting it done now. But, Sir, his predecessors have a heavy burden to shoulder. There is no reason that this bill could not have 7822

June 25, 1975 Tape No. 2 713 Nl• - 3 been brought before the Bouse at any point in the last three or four session .s. !-le have asked for it on this side consistently and constantly. fie stand r eady to support it now as we would have then. So you know 'With the comment chat better late than ne ve r I say Sir, that we shall support the bill and we will do so with pleasure because we believe it will help the fishermen of this provin ce . }!R. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Bell Jsland. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, my colleague has prett y well covered the ·remarks ,1 suppose.outlining the position that we on this side of 7823

June 25, 1075 Tape 27 ll, (afternoon) IB-1 the House take 1n th:ls par•',~ul11r h:111. Rut, there are a few (luest:lons that I would like to raise and like to get the minister's reaction to these quest:lons when he is wind:lng ur the debate. Sir, first of all I want to say that I have been puzzled right from the beginn:!ng, Sir, of why it was necessary to include a provision in the collective bargaining for fishermen to set up a Fishing Industry Advisory Roard. I could never understand, Sir, "Why that was necessary in the beginning. It seems to me that 1.t stRrted out as just a T'iece of window dressing.

It was in my opinion just put in there and perhaps - you know, I never got a chance to discuss it. I was the acting ~Hnister of Labour at the time and T never did get a chance to d:lscuss it w:lth the legal draftsmen on why it was ne.cessary to have this there because once you give the fishing industry collective haria:ln:lng, then they have to go through all the process of negotiat:lng across the table, a conciliation officer, a conciliat:lon board and go through all the legal process that all the other unions and employers go through in their negotiations. I Pould think, 1'1r.

Speaker, that in this particular case that c1ur1ng hect:lc, during very sensitive negotiations, that this pnrticular hoarc1 would bf' walking the tightrope. They would be 'igurc skating on very, very thin ice indeec1 because one side or the other :Is hound to try to use this board for their own benefit d<'p~nrling on the situation at the time.

Whether the fishing industry ,:as rnakinp; a hig profit or whether it was in the red, if it was in the red or if they were just operating at a break even situation, the fishin?; :lnclustry would try to take advantage of the board and use the hoard to try to strengthen their case. On the other hand, if they were making a substantial profit, the union would try to use the boarcl.

So they would have to be very careful in that kincl of situation in my opinion because no matter ~,hat h;ip-pens setting up this board 1s not going to put any more fish in the ocean neither is it going to settle the negotiations between the fishermen's uni.on and various ernvloyers throughout the Province. It 1,s inst not /'.ning to settle them. They are going to still have to 7824

June 25, 1975 Tape 2714 (afternoon) rn--:i go through the normal process that any union has to go through or any negotiat:fons have to take. They have to follow thidr natural course. And so in that regard, Sir, you know the only thing the board can do is just collect the information, y,ass it on to the various groups :If they can get permission from the minister. Will the minister authorize the hoarcl to release t.he infornation during very sensit:lve contract negot:1 .ations? If he did, would he not be influencing one side or the other?

T would like for the minister to tell us how it is go:f.ng to ,.,o&, 1n that regard because I think that is the area that we are <>cdnp: to have some difficulties, some prohlems. One good thing that T could see the board accompl1shjnp, if they had the authority and I am not quite sure if they have or not - recently we heard the Minister of Fisheries and he could not wait to take to the airwaves and to get his ph:fsog on television to tell us that he had carried out a study throughout the Prov:lnce and compared lobster prices in Newfoundland to the pricP of lobsters in the other Atlantic Provinces.

He came to the conclusion that lobster fishermen in Newfoundland were not being chiseled, they were not being gypped, that the lobster prices in Newfoundland were in line with the lobster prices heing paid in Atlantic ranada and the other Atlantic Provinces. This may or may not be so, Sir. I question the min:fster's figures, but nevertheless I have nothing to back it up apart from just some very, very mild research that I did myself.

From what I can learn, Sir, and I did travel over to the ~a:lnland to finrl this out, that the lobster fishennen in Nova Scotia were getting more for their lobsters than the fishermen here in Newfoundland despite what the minister and his officials said. Rut, Sir, that was not really the point. That was not ,the point at all. Let us say they were getting the same prices, $1.20 a pounc1, I think, or roughly $1.20 or $1.30 7825

June 5, 1975, Tape 2715, Page 1 -- apb and the minister was so proud and looked so cheerful on television telling us that the lobster fishermen in Newfoundland were getting the same as the mainland - over in New Brunswick, and Nova Scotia and P.E.I. they were getting about $1.20 or $1.30 a pound.

But the minister did not tell us how much Bidgood's were getting for these lohsters ! the spread between what was heinr, paid to the lobster fishermen and what Bidgood's were charging the consumer, At that particular time when the minister made that statement the lobster fisherman may have been getting his $1.20 or his $1.30 a pound, but Bidgood's were charging about $2.40 or S2.50 a pound to the consumer, and they were making more off the lobster than the fisherman was and that is what the minister should have been looking at.

And the same thing, Sir, applies all the way down the line with all the fish products that are on sale in the supermarkets. MR. DOODY: l'IR. NEARY: What about the fish markets? No, I do not know. I would say their prices are very reasonable. I would say their prices are more reasonable than ll1<lgood's. MR. J)()Ol)Y: I am just asking your opinion. You seem to have done some research. MR. NEARY: I certainly have done some research on them. But, Sir, this I think is where this board might come in handy.

This Board might be able to find our, Sir, may be able to find out because I do not believe there is a person in Newfoundland today who can explain or who has been able to find out why you pay such high prices for salt fish, if you can get it, in the stores and in the supermarkets in Newfoundland, when you pay the fishermen six and eight and he would beluckv if he gets ten cents a pound. MR. DOODY: mt. NEARY: MR. DOODY: MR. NEARY: Salted. No, it is not salted. How much does the fishermen get for salting it?

And you go into the - or fresh for that matter - and vou go into the supermarket and you probably pay about $1.75 or $1.85 a nound for it. 7826

June 25, 1975, Tape 2715, Page 2 -- apb MR. DOODY: Why is that? MR. NEARY: That is what I would like to know. Tl,at is what I hope this Board will find out. Because everybody in Newfoundland has been asking that question for years and years. Now the Minister of Industrial Development - MR. DOODY: Surely you got some connections with them to get that information. MR. NEARY: - the :"-1:inister of Industrial Development who has had a little bit of experience in the supermarket business. MR. DOODY: A little background. MR.

NEARY: - a little background perhaps the minister can participate in this debate and he might he able to - MR. DOODY: I got out of it. T could not stand it. MR. NEARY: Could not stand it? No, he used it as a steppinr. stone to get into politics. And you go from Duff's Supermarket to Minister of Industrial Development. Out of the pickle barrel into the fire. But anyway, Sir, it is an interesting situation·. People have been asking that question for years: How come the fishermen get such a low price for his fish and the stores and the sunermarkets and the fish merchants clean her on it? Why is it?

Why are not the benefits passed on to the ·fishermen? MR, DOODY: Ask Mike. MR. NEARY: Ah! He pays a pretty good price. And that is something, Sir, r hope that this fishing industry - I will not get any supper this evening. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the functions and duties of the Board include; it has the power to collect, compile and record information and statistics respecting the fishing industry, includinR information relating to catching, buying, selling, producing, processing, exporting, marketing, operational costs,labour costs and pricing of fish.

Now I do not know, Sir, how far the minister jntends for this Board to go in the field of marketing. Will it just be - NR. DOODY: There is no doubt they will get full informat:fon. .., Q "I-, ., U l. I

June 25, 1975, Tape 2715, Page 3 - apb MR. NF.ARY: Full information .? But will they be blazing new trails? Will they be lookinii; for new markets? Will they be a marketing board? MR. DOODY: MR. NEARY: MR. CROSBIE : new markets . "fR. NEARY: Yes, they will - Ah well! Now, Sir, that was not the impression - They cannot market fish. They can look for Well, Sir, if they do, then I toiould say that could be a very good thing, providing, ~r. Speaker, the Board just does not take off and make trips around the wor ld at public expense iust for the sake of gettinp, away from our cold, damp climate here in !llewfoundland. 7828

June 25, 1975 Tape 2716 (Afternoon) PK - l If they are genuinely authorized to go out and try and find new markets I would say that could be a good thing, But I hope they do not end up every time you get on a plane you find somebody from (what is it they call it?) the St. John's Recreation - (what do they call that recreation grotlp)? - Newfoundland Amateur Sports Federation. F.very time you get on a plane you see somehody from the Newfoundland Amateur Sports Federation going off on a jaunt somewhere at public expense. I hope this crowd do not wind up doing the same thing. HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

NEARY: It is about time that somebody went down and audited their books. MR. MURPHY: MR. NEARY: ----- HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: ~- NEA;!tY: thing. I hope you mention it . Yes, I will mention it because it is true. Oh, oh! Order, please! But I hope that this crowd do not end up doing the same I hope this is not the Cabot Street Floor Hockey team that you are talking about. MR. NEARY: I beg your pardon? MR. DOODY: -- -·-- I hope that is not the Cabot Street Floor Hockey te~~ you are talking about. MR. NEARY: No, Sir, No, Mr. Speaker, This is only a handful of pepple I am talking about.

I am not talking about all of the members of the Newfoundland Sports Federation, just a handful. MR. SIMMONS: Going to university extension courses: MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The Chair fails to see the relevance between the Fishery Advisory Board and the Newfoundland Sport Federation. IR , DOODY: They are all sports minded. MR . NF.ARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, apart from that I do not have anything else to say except that I would be interested to hear what the minister has to say about this Board giving out inform a tion during a period 7829

June 75, 1975 Tape 27lf (Afternoon) of negotiations between the Fishermen's Unions and the Advisory Board, because it could influence, Sir, one party of the other. And I, you know, maybe I am stund, and perhaps I am and I am sure the Minister of Social Services would agree. Mil.. MURPHY: Yes.I second that. PK - 2 MR. NEARY: Yes,the minister would second that. But I cannot see, Sir, what henefit this Roard can be to either side, all it could do is cause trouble, It could get itself in a bad situation, it could get itself in a real jam if they did not watch themselves during negotiations.

I do not think this Board was set up to take the place of the conciliation officer or the Conciliation Board. I am sure it was not. Butt hone it is not designed to try and settle any disoute that may arise between an employer and the union.

I do not think it can because as my colleague pointed out the fishing industry for a long time to come will have to be subsidized and this Roard is not the one, it is up to the elected repres~ntatives of the people to decide the subsidy that will be necessary to carry on the fishing industry and to settle the agreements with the workers, the fi!lh plant workers and the trawlernen and the fishermen of this Province. Jt will not be up to this Board it will be up to the elected representatives of the people.

And I believe, Sir, the day is not too far distant in th-Ls "Province when there will be provincial-wide negotiations carried on in behalf of the fishing industry. It will be Province-wide, that one union will negotiate for all of the fishermen of this Province, and I Pould say that would be a very good thing. Well, Mr. Speaker, why have just an Advisory Board for the fishing industry? Why only for the fishing industry? Why not for the mining industry? Why not have provincial-wide bargaining for the mining industrv? Why not have rrovincial-wide bargaining for the construction industry?

Why not have an advisory board, Sir, for all of the variou~ categories of industries that we have in this Province? Why limit it to the fishing industry, Sir? Any particular reason? _s_o_ME ..!!_O!!.:.__:~F.MB~R.S _:_ /1h , oh'. 7830

June 25 , 1975 Tape 2716 (Afternoon) PK - 3 MR . SPRAKER: Order, please! MR , NF.ARY: Why not have a n adv iso r hoard for t he nelllbers of t he House of Assembly? ~fR . F.VAN!:: ~ - NEAR~:_ Rear, hear '. Why has it just been restricted, Mr. Speaker, to the fishing industry.

As I said when I started off my few remarks, Si.r, I have always been puzzled to Jr.now why this 'Board was being est11blished .• . t believe myself, Sir, it started out to be nothing·but window dressing and it started out to try and leave the appeara:nee to the fishet'lllen ·of this Province that at long last somebody was going to come to their rescue and try to get the information that was being hidden su1>11osedly for ~o long out in.to the open, and I ·believe, Sir, that was probably the main reason behind it, You know.like the Leader of the Opposition says only time will tell whether it works or not.

And I will be interested in hearing what the minister has to say about the information that will be in hands of this Board during the period of negotiations betw.een die various groups,whether they be fish plant workers, fishermen and the various employers, the fish merchants throughout this Province. The Hon, Member for Placentia East. MR. SPEAKER:. MR.. AYLWARD: I would just like to r:f.se to sup.port this legislation and I think myself it is an extremely important piece o-f legislation.

I think it will go a long way if the Soard fulfills the objective set out in this act to allay a lot of suspicion on the part of the fishermen themselves as to 7831

June ~5, 197.5 Tape 2717 (afternoon) IB-1 the capacities of the companies to pay higher prices than they pay. Everywhere the inshore fishery committee travelled throughout Newfoundland, ~,e heard the fishermen express great discontent and dissatisfaction at the price paid for fish, and the fishermen always felt that the companies and the huyers and the processors and everybody who paid them for thPi r catch could and should be able to p:w more than thev actually p;,,id.

As T see the purpose nf this Advisnry Board, it is to act as an agencv, an independent bo:ird, that could look into the operations of these v11rious fish companies and after making a proper aucUt ascertain whether in fact the companies could pay more than thev are paying or whether the financial pnsition of the company was as had as the company held it out to be. Nm•, ¥r. Speaker, a lot nf course Pill depend upon how effective this hoard really is.

If the hoard frlfills the mand11te env1sager1 hy this lerisl,,ition T think it will do an excellent .iob because, as I have said before, it will have the capacity to restore faith, the faith of the fishermen in the people who buy their products. Tf yo11 look at the

section which sets out the power of the hoard, the hoanl will ha-ve power to collect, compile and record · ·, · •T:natinn in stAtistics r<>presentjng the fishing industry includir,11: r,,111tion rPlAtinp; to catching, huying, selling, producing, procpssino, exporting, marketinp,, operational costs, labour costs, r· , fish ,md fish product. So, you see, !-Ir.

Sppaker, this !,,r•.i~latic>n is inc·eerl exception111ly hro;in And as I see it,and the mini.ster in answer to A question r;iised by the honourable Member for llell Island inc'licAten with respect to marketing, for example, that the h0arcl has the author:!ty to go out and even try to obtain new m,irket.s for the product. ~'.m,,, if the hoArd can do that, ~•r.

Speaker, And undoubtedly 1 t crm if it l,as the resources, this will he a wonderful function ,in,' 11 vPry, verv necessary one because 1-t is something that we dicl not hAve time ourselves to loo!c into and unrloubtedly the unions nnc! the v0vprnmenr to a p,reat extent has ha,1 to rely upon the 7832

June 25, 1975 Tape 271 7 (afternoon) T'' - " information which they rece1ved from the companies as T'.O what the market conditions were like. Now this foilepenc'ent hoard with their economists and with their own contacts in the various markets of the world could and should \,e ahle to satisfy the mini,;ter :as to what thr market conditions really are. '!'his, Mr. Speaker, T said, is Rn extremely important piece of legislation if the board can and rloes fulfill that function.

Also 1 think the honourable Member from Bell Island rai sec1 a very good question, and that was just how this information coulrl and would be used. I certainly agree, M'r. Speaker, T c,m see that the government has a right to ascerta1n this 1.nformRtion and thf' reason why, of course, f.s \,ecause there is S<' much puhlic funds involved in the fishery. llut now when this information is made available to the minister, T mean is he at liherty to disclose this to the union? And if so, of course, this will affect the negotiations between the union and the companies as to the price of fish.

And '3S I see it my own feeling on :It is that this ts the whole purpose of it so that the government can, the government itself can be satisfied that the 1110nf'y that is being put into the fishery is well spent and that tf the company says they cannot afford to pay, that after the government's audit they are satisfiecl themselves that they coulcl not. Now, if they have the capacity tn pay, how much mr,re should t.he company pay?

I suppose that fs a rrnestion which certainly would have to he negotiated between the union representinr, the fishermen and the fish processors or huyPrs. llut that is a very, very important area. This is where,of cot1rse, this information is going to be of great value and of great value to the industry.

Practically every fisherman in Newfoundland, inshore fishermen with whom we have met to a man, every fishP.rrnan to a man felt that he was not getting enough for his fish and that t.he buyer could and should pay more, and that the government keeps pourinp, money into the industry to help -the processors, to help the 7833

June 25, 1975 . Tape 2718 RH - 1 trawler operations and to help every segment of the industry and that they are not passing that money on to the fishermen themselves. Of course, the great debate and the great matter of principle that was settled in the recent dispute, of course, one of them in addition to being paid for their efforts, that any subsidies through government would be passed on to the fishermen.

I was pleased to learn from the statement made by the Minister of Fisheries, our own, that the Government of Newfoundland has agreed to assist the crab industry by paying four cents more per pound but that four was paid on the condition that the industry itself pay ten,so that the crab fishermen would and should receive fourteen cents per pound. Now this information, Mr. Speaker, as to what the crab industry can themselves pay can only be determined after the government has had an opportunity to assess the financial statements of these companies.

As I understand it now this Advisory Board will be able to obtain the books of these companies and all the financial records, look at the markets and then advise government just what the financial position of the company is. Of course, after the government determines what their profit or loss is, this should be evidence as to· whether the fishermen can and should receive more from the processor or buyer and whether the government's contribution is being passed on to the fishermen.and whether that amount is necessary. I think, Mr.

Speaker, that as far as the inshore fishermen of Newfoundland are concerned this will be a blessing. This piece of legislation is a godsend. But again it will depend upon how this Board functions. I heard great confidence expressed by members of both sides in the Chairman and the composition of this Board.

I am sure every inshore fisherman in Newfoundland will anxiously await the reports which the Advisory Board will make to the minister and, of course, pass on in some way to the fishermen because this information compiled by an independent Board should once and for all satisfy, or if they will not satisfy the fishermen, at least 7834

June 25, 1975. Tape 2718 RH - 2 explain to the fishermen that this is the financial position of this particular company or of this particular sel;fflent of the industry and this is what can or cannot be paid by the buyer without gover.nment assistance for the particular species in question. I think it is a very, very important piece of legislation. As I said before, if properly carried out, it will restore faith by the fishermen in the buyer. Now, Mr.

Speaker, when we conducted our hearings we accepted a brief from the Fishermen Food and Allied Workers and one suggestion that they made and we included in our recommendations to the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations and that was this. They complained of certain legal obstacles, so to speak, which they were encountering with respect to collective bargaining because of certain provisions in the original act, a great deal of time was required before they could obtain certification.

We recommended that the minister look into the situation and if the submissions of the union were found to be in order, that appropriate changes in the legislation should be brought in. Again, Mr. Speaker, I think this is an excellent piece of legislation. I sincerely trust that the Board will carry out the mandate entrusted to it and that it will provide this very valuable information and restore the faces of fishermen in the processors and the buyers. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member for Fogo."- CAPTAIN WINSOR: Mr.

Speaker, I do not wish to dwell at length on the setting up of the Fishery Industry Advisory Board. It is regrettable but I suppose it is better late than never. I recall, and I am sure all members of the honourable House will recall that the first Throne Speech that this present government brought in, they advocated the setting up of this Fishing Industry Advisory Board. Now, as the Leader of the Opposition said, three years and more have passed by and it is only today that we find that a bill, legislation is being introduced into this House to get this noard 7835

June 25, 1975 Tape No. 2719 NM - 1 i n action. }fr. Speaker, there has always been a mistrust among our fishermen, rightly or wrongly, that stigma has always been there that the merchant or the fish processor or the buyer has been gypping the fishermen. And if they go to the supermarket, having received ten and eleven and twelve cents per pound for fish and go to the supermarket to buy that same fish back they find a price tag of anywhere from eighty-five to $1.00 to $1.25 per pound. Andit is no wonder, it is no wonder, Mr.

Speaker, that the fishermen would not ask himself the question, •~./ho is getting the rip off? Is it the producer? Is it not the fisherman who has got to rise early in the morning, very often stormy and face the North Atlantic to drag a few fish out of the water and come in and receive ten and twelve cents a pound - he is lucky if he receives that - to find himself faced, or his wife who will usually do the grocery buyini for the week, face the same product in the supermarket with a price tag of anywhere from eighty-five to one dollar and odd cents per pound.

This is what has created the doubt in the minds of our inshore fishermen and it has always been there. And on this board, and I would suggest to the minister, I would suggest that a fisherman should be a member of this board.

We have some very young intelligent fishermen today and I think it would satisfy the fishing indu~tr 1 as a whole, especially the inshore fishermen, that if one of the :l r colleagues or one of their members, one of the fishermen whom they ,.·,e some respect for, and there are quite a lot cif them around here today, were to serve on that board it would mean a lot to the success of the functioning of this board. Mr. Speaker, I would like to see the board expand into the grading of fish because here again we find the fishermen very disgruntled in the way their fish is graded.

They claim they are not getting the best price for the best grade and vice versa. So if they could include the grading of this fish and convince the fishermen that they are getting the best price for the best grade~or the best price for that particular grade,then I certainly think it will go a long way to eliminate a lot of the mistrust that we find among our inshore fishermen today. 7836

June 24, 1975 Tape No. 2719 NM - 2 So, Mr. Speaker, as the Leader of the Opposition stated, we support this legislation. I co111111end the present minister for bringing it in at this particular ti111e1 I believe too that . if this board had been functioning last winter when we had the tr.awlermen' s strike, perhaps that strike would not have dragged on as long. I think this board could have gone a long way to settle that strike. So, Mr.

Speaker, these are just a few remarks in agreeing with IIIY colleague, the Leader of the Opposition and my colleague the Member for Rell Island,and the Member for Placentia East, that unfortunately of course there is nothing we can do about the past now. The fishermen have been looking for this legislation. They thought they were going to get it the first six months after the present government were elected and I believe that they had all hopes abandoned of ever getting it.

Rut I am very hap.py now to see that it will get past this Legislature today,we hope,and they will regain their confidence in the government, regain the confidenc ·e that the present government do have an interest in the way they make a living and let us get the board functioning as quickly as possible. No secTets, Mr. Speaker, this board must operate over and beyond any means of ,.

June 25, 1975, Tape 2720, Page 1 -- apb secrecy.If they find the companies will not make available to them their books for auditing, then the minister will have to be requested to use some other means of obtaining the information pertaining to the price of fish paid to the fishermen and the spread between the fishermen and the consumer. So with those few remarks, Mr. Speaker, I commend the Minister of Fisheries and wish him well. MR. SPEAKER: MR. GILLETT : The honourable the Member for Twillingate. Mr.

Speaker, I shall be very brief in this and like the other speakers on this side of the House, in fact, on both sides of the House, Mr. Speaker,! support this bill. The functions of the Committee are varied, they are great. Their responsibility is great and I can certainly see where the Committee will be working full time, and not only full time but overtime if they have to cover all the ground and carry out all the functions which are required of them. My colleague from Fogo said that the mistrust has always been ?resent and l think it still will remain present.

I fear very much that regardless of what results this eommittee comes up with and with what recommendations and findings they present to the Minister of Fisheries, it still will not satisfy the fishermen because their costs are so much greater today than they were years ago. The atire industry has changed, Mr. Speaker, changed dramatically, I recall in the days of the Commission of Government a gentleman walked into our office one day in Twillingate, He introduced himself as Bruce Feather. I believe he was an Englishman.

And I asked him what he was there for and he said, "I have been sent out by the government, the Commission of Government, to see if we cannot widen the gap in the returns in the fishing industry." And I said, "F:xactly what do you mean, Mr. Feather?" He said, "You stand a chance of losing twenty-five cents or fifty centa a quintal on fish, and you stand a chance of making twenty-five cents or fifty cents a quintal, ·on an investment that is costing you something in the vicinity of $17.00." He said, "That margin is too narrow." "Well," I said, "w'.'lat do you hope to do about it?" He said, "Well, I hope 7838

June 25, 1975, Tape 2720, Page 2 - apb we can manage to widen it." I said, "I hope you do . " But the only way that we could survive, we did survive, and I explained this to Mr. Feather, is that fish was the fisherm an's cash and it was also ours - the only cash we bad and it was not cash. Ancl for that reason we were doing a barter business with,usually , a twentv­ cwo to twenty-five oer cent markup on our goods,out of which the transportation bad to come. As I say, the industry has changed, changed dramatically.

And I can certainly understand the fishermen because I feel it myself - when he Roes in a local supermar ke t and sees, if he 1s fortunate to see his Newfoundland fish, light salted, hard cured, sundried cod, the most delicious food, I believe , on earth, at least to me, he sees that fish selling here in Newfoundland for $1.00 and $1.20 a pound. He can think nothing other than somebody is ripping him off. So therefore, Mr.

Speaker, if this Comnittee does nothing else but reveal to the fishermen, never mind the trade, but reveal to the fishermen where that so-called, alleged rip-off is taking place, then I think if they do nothing else they will have accolllJ)lished their task and accomplished it to the fullest. I am very happy to know that the Chairman 7g39

June 25, 1975 Tape 2721 (afternoon) IB-1 will 1,e Mr. Prince. I c-an think of no other man in Newfoundland really who i.s qu:lte as qnalified to carry out these functions because he has a knowledge of the entire industry from the catching to the marketinB. I congratulate the minister on his appointing Mr. Prince as the chairman of that committee. I would support my colleague from Fogo when I say that I too suggest very strongly that if the committee can be increaserl in number, that a fisherman, perhaps two fishermen,from the inshore and the offshore,would be members of that committee.

That I think would go a long,long way towards satisfying the doubts of the fishermen if they had two of their colleagues on that committee. As the hour :Is getting late, Mr. Chairman, and we know the House Leader has more husiness t.o transact, so I just want to say but very firmly that I wholeheartedly support this bill and I trust that the committee will accomplish the task which is set before it. MR. SPF.AKER (AYLWARD): If the minister speaks, he closes the debate. 1W. CROSRIE: Mr. ~peaker, I would like to thank all members who have spoken on the bill.

I will just touch briefly on some of the pointe that have been ralsed, It is certainly the intention to have other memhers appointed to the hoard and it is certainly the intention to ask the fishermen's union to suggest several names of people who n .,y 1·-e appointed and certainly there will be representatives of the fishermen on th is Fishing Industry Advisory lloard. The other member in addition to Mr. Prince, Mr. Pynn,is not representing any particular interest group.

He :1.s just a very, very intelligent and capable man who is the head of the faculty of commerce at Memorial l'niversity. !';o there will he other memhers appointed including representatives of the fishermen. 'IR. NEARY: Does he have his Come From Away degree? MR. CROSBIE: I do not know whether - I think Mr. Pynn is a native Newfoundlander, but I would not care if he came from Ethiopia if hf' was the right man to do the job • 7840

June 25, 1975 Tape 2721 (afternoon) TR-? Now, just some of the points that were mentioned: Several gentlemen mentioned the legislation 1s late, that it should have been brought in a year ago or two years ago. Well, f'lr. ~peaker, vnu mav or may not believe it but I remember a dozen cabinet meetings of which my predecessor as "finis ter of Fisheries and the 1'11n1 s ter of Labour brought up this question of who could we recommend to get FIS chairman of the Fishing Industry Advisory Board, and dozens upon dozens of names were sugp.ested, and they would be contacted and turn it do~m or refuse it.

But that is the onlv reason whv this legislation is late. We could not find a person in the Province to take over,to accept appointment as chairman who was capable of cloinr, it because they were afraid of the job. They felt they would he in between the union and the employers and they were going to be shot at by all sides, and it would be too unpleasant a job. We finally had to di;agoon the then Deputy Minister of Fisheries Rupert Prince, who was a Deputy Minister of Fisheries, we had to dragoon him and practically stone him into the position of chairman of the Fishing Industry Advisory Board.

That is the reason for the lateness 1 if there is any lateness,in the legislation. Well, hetter late than never. It would have been before this House long ago had we been able to find a chairman until finally we had to take one of our own deputy ministers and ask him to, persuade him to become chairman of the. hoard. That is the reason for the lateness. Now, Mr. Speaker, I do nC't like to cate11:orize classes of people as being good or had. I Hnd there are goocl merchants and had merchants. There are good businessmen and had businessmen.

There are good polit1 c:f ans and ones that I consider to be :lnferiqr or bacl. There are good union men and others I have no regard for at all, that I think are reprohates or irresponsible. You know, you cannot say that merchants are this or union people are that. You know, this categorization is neither fair nor accurate. T therefore clo not accept general condemnations of the fish merchants 7841

Jun e ?.S, 1q75 Tape 2721 (afternoon) tB-3 of Newfou ndland.s o-call Pn ,nr that th~ pres ent fish processors o r companies , crat the y ,S?re a ll scoundrels and rogues,and I do not think they are . r think that the great majority of them are hard wo rking , at tP.IT\'JHinr. to (lo a joh in very difficult circumstances . nut the ho ard , one of the prinie functions of the hoard will be t o h ave at last an impartial snurce 0€ verification as to whether the indus cry c;,n afforn or not afford to do t his, that or the ocher or what level of suhs inr they need.

Now in collective hargafning l do not knOtJ how much of a role-the ~'P.m't,er for Rell Islan d touched on this - the hoard can play i.n colle c t i ve barr, afnin g . lle cause, if i.t, you know, presents t n the two contending pa rties - let. us say t hey were negotiating wi t h X company and f t vertfi.es that X compc1ny is losing money , 7842

June 25, 1975 Tape No. 2 722 NM - 1 hopelessly losing money and therefore cannot afford to pay the. fish plant workers or the fishermen another cent, the union is not going to pay any attention to that. They are going to say that they want an increase anyway and if they are not earning money they should get a subsidy 1 that they are not going to work at slave labour rates and so on and so forth, the cost of living is gone up. And 1 mean that is not going to persuade a union not to look for an increase simply because you can show from an impartial source the company is at the moment losing money and - MR.

NEARY: The Board is not going to be used as the big stick. MR. CROSBIE: Right. So I think that its value in a collective bargaining sense in any particular negotiation is not going to be a great one.

Its greatest value is as the bill now presents it, impartial source of information to governments, to the industry, to the unions or to groups of fishermen or to whoever is interested in the industry and just what the costs are and what the factors are and what the marketing is and so on and so forth and what they think of prices with all the information they have got that will be available whenever it is needed, and available for collective bargaining also. Now the Member for Placentia East mentioned his Select Connnittee recommended that they were favourably impressed with the submission Mr.

Cashin's union .made about collective bargaining changes they would like to see in'connection with the inshore fishermen or the general fishermen of the