PRELHfiNARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT House of Assembly For the period: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. February 15, 1977

February 15, 1Q77 Taue No. 285 The House met at 3:00 P.~. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. }ffi. SPEAKER: Before calling the first order of routine business there was a point of order made by the hon. member for St. John's North (Hr. J. Carter) just before the adjournment yesterday 't-Thich has not been disposed of, and which I would ~ropose to do now. The hon. gentleman for St. John's North in his point of order alleged that the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) was out of order and gave three references or citations with respect to his allegation.

I would first wish to distinguish between the rules with respect to length of speeches,covered by Standing Order 49,and the rules relating to the substance and form of speeches referred to very briefly in Standing Order 51 and p,iven much more substance and body in the ruling~ of the House and in the authorities, particularly Beauchesne and May. There are two different areas, length of speeches and substance of them. There is no way that any hon. nember or the Chair can modify questions of the length of speeches governed hy Standing Order lf9,unless of course it is done pursuant to the House of Assembly Act.

With respect of the three specific citations quoted and referred to by the hon. gentleman from St. John's North, the first one Has, and to quote his exact ·words, "A rule -.rhich prohibits one from being tedious and boring." In our own Standing Order there is no reference to tedious,rtlthough in the authorities in Beauchesne there is. I find the te~m "tedious" an extremely suhiective one, and what n'.ight he of little or no interest to sonc::- hon. members could be of conslli~ing interest to others.

The terms in our Standi~g Order are ''needless repetition~" and I think it is to that particular term that I have to refer. 'Frnm """ nrdnt" of viPH.rPnitition conld onlv be considered ., ~ t \ ~ ' . I .·

February 15, 1977 Tape ~lo . 2~5 W·t - 2 MR . SPEAKER: needless if. it cannot be- reasonably justified . NO\oJ bearing in mind the nunher of subiects referred to by the hen . p.entleman from LaPoile C{r. Neary ) yesterday , aMong theM references and critiques of various governnent depart ment s, his analysis of the position of denturists and the dental profession t and his general comments upon t~e le~al profession and kindred subjects then I do not think I vould be right in saying that any repe tit ion he might have engaged in Hould not be or could not be reasonably justified . With reference to the hon . gentleman from St . John ' s North's contention .. , n t• I . • ?

February 15, 1977 Tape no. 286 Page 1 - mw Mr. Speaker. that some of the matters were covered in the same manner in a speech by the han. gentleman in last year's session, I d~ not really have to decide whether that is or is not the case, because there would be no rule precluding any han. member from repeating in one session what he may have said in another session. The third reference .was to Beauchesne 149 (

i) which refers to an han. member obstructing the business of the House. Now obstructing 1 obviouslythere has a technical, parliamentary meaning and according to 1-1ay it is defined as follows: "A member who abuses the rules of the House by persistently and wilfully obstructing the business of the House, that is to say,who without actually transgressing any of the rules of the debate uses his right of speech for the purpose of obstructing the business of the House or obstructs the business of the House by misusing the forms of the House, is technically not guilty of disorderly conduct.

It would seem, therefore, that a member so obstructing the business of the House cannot be required to 'vithdraw from the House for the remainder of the sitting.

He may be, however, guilty of a contempt of the House and may be named although comparatively little use has been made of this power by the Chair." Bearing in mind the nature of the motion to which the han. gentleman was speaking, and indeed the motion to which it is an amendment, bearing that in mind, bearing in mind the precise vmrding of Standing Order 50 and bearing in mind as well the prerogative of the government to call the order of business on all days except Wednesday after the Orders of the Day have been called, then I would not find that the han. gentleman \vas qbstructing the business of the House.

The third matter referred to by the han. gentleman for St. John's North ,,Tas with reference to

Section 144 of Beauchesne which is quite lengthy, ~vhich I will not read, vhich in

summary prohibits an hon. member from reading his speech or from reading letters, other

February 15, 1977 Tape no. 286 Page 2 - mw Mr. Speaker. Obviously all han. members are entitled to use notes, extensive or otherwise, to refer to documents for the purFose of jogging their memory.If in fact they do read an actual document, then it should be tabled, So with reference to the three citations given me by the hon. gentleman for St. John's North, and I think bearing in mind the necessity to distinguish between the question of length of speeches, covered by the Standing Orders, which can only be altered in a specific way, and the substance of speeches, then the han. member for LaPoile (Hr.

Neary) was in order. SOHE HO~. !'iEHBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: Thank you very much, Your Honour. STATEl.fENTS BY l1INISTERS: NR. SPEAKER: The han. Hinister of Fisheries. NR. W. CARTER: Hr. Speaker, last week I announced in the House a job creation prograrrJ!le with res?ect to the provision of certain fishing facilities_at which time I promised to table the locations of these facilities and the number of man·h~urs which I am very pleased to do now. MR. SPEAIZER: The hon. Minister of Nines and Energy, HR. PECKFORD: Hr.

Speaker, over the last month or so there has been an increasing amount of debate and discussion in the national and provincial media on the subject of the energy problems of the }~ritimes in general, and of this Province in particular, and its need for some form of assistance from the federal government along the lines of the $12 million package accepted by Prince Edward Island and the $63 million energy conservation proposal that was under discussion until yesterday between the federal government and the government of Nova Scotia.

In view of the grmdng public interest on the subject of energy conservation throughout the Province~I believe it is appropriate to release to the public an outline of the government's efforts to secure federal assistance for the Province.

February 15.1977 Tape 2e7 AJT-1 HR. rECKFORD: The question of an energy subsidy was first raised by Nova Scotia at the Ener~y Ministers Conference of 5th March, 1976. Nova Scotia's request was for a subsidy for the province's high encgry costs. Prince Ed1.-1ard Island .i oined in the request.

The then ~~inister of Mines and Energy (John Crosbie) requested that Newfoundland should be included in any such federal programme resulting from the Nova Scotia initiative • The subject of special assistance 1-1as then referred,among other subjects,to a meeting of officals for discussion prior to the First Ninisters Yeeting scheduled for Hay, 1976. At the officals' meeting of the 22nd Narch, 1976 the subsidy item was considered and the province provided several papers detailing its case.

Unfortunately was not discussed in any depth and it was concluded that the federal government would consider the request to see what if anything could be done. At t]le First ',tinisters' 1'eeting the subject of special energy assistance, one of the several energy topics on the agenda, there 1-Tas no specific conclusion on the subject. At the Finance Minister~MeetinR prior to the First Ministers 1 Meeting the subsidy subject 1.vas again raised and our minister- 1vho is present here today-of finance argued forceably for our inclusion in any federal programme of assistance.

By midsummer of last year it was becoming clear that the federal government \vas reacting to substantial Nova Scotia lobbying pressure for a subsidy for electrical rates. Hm-1ever, throughout the 1.vhole period of discussion ,otta1.-1a was taking the position that no subsidy on electrical costs would be forthcoming because of the problems of giving it to some provinces and not to others.

In our discussions 1.vith the federal officals and politicans involved, 1.ve were subject to some pressure that Newfoundlands best interest3 lay not in persuing the energy subsidy avenue but in negotiating additional help for the Gull Island project. In any event, no positive federal action tool~ place in the §ummer or Autumn so the Premier 1.vrote to the Prime Hinister on the 19th October to clarify the position and to rerr:est that our 1Jrovince should be included in any federal considerations of assistance to Nova Scotia and P.E.I. ,, ') ') ' ' . )

February 15,1977 Tape 287 AH-2 Jvf_R. PECKFORD: Follmving this letter we were given to understand that while the government was considering some form of assistance to certain provinces to relieve the burden of increasing oil costs on the generation of electricity~n~ decision on the subject had been reached as late as the end of November.

We ''ere further informed that our oil usage for electricity generation was not serious compared with the other two provinces and that ~ve should be directing our attention to solving our energy problems by the development of hydro resources in co-operation ~v-ith federal officials. The next development was the end December announcement that an energy conservation package amounting to $12 million had been granted to Prince Ed,vard lsland, and that a corresponding package amounting to $63 million had been offered to Nova Scotia. .

The announcements stressed the lir,kage between the subsidies and the high cost of electricity generation in the tvm prmvinces. On the 18th January~ 1977., the Premier 1vrote to the -:-'rime J'·Iinister requesting an explanation for the -provinces exclus:i.on strongly criticizing the federal governmentscationale for singling out Prince Eduard Island and l'bva Scotia on the grounds that other provinces were somehow in a better position than either of those provinces in terms of the burden of oil prices in the generation of electricity.

The Premier's letter pointed out the need to revie,·J individual provincds cases for assistance in m•1ch wider terms which would tab:: into account relative economic and energy factors relating to the province. To date no official reply to this letter has been received. Following instructions referred to in the Premier's letter, I wrote to my federal counterpart , the Bon. Allister Gellespie,enclosing a copy of the Premier's letter and enclosing a paver 'vhich compares the economic and energy situation in J Ne~v-foundland , Nova Scotia and I'rince Edward Island.

It is mv opinion that this -paper represents an ob .iective analysis and demonstrates conclusive] v that the case of Ne,.,rfoundland for federal energy conservation subsidy proportinate to those ,., fl ' i . . t

February 15,1977 Tape 287 AH- 3 1111 . PECKPO~J): gru.;:te~. to or be:ing discussed '-':i th P .E. I. and Nova Scotia is irrefutable. I believe it is correct at this stage to release this information to alloy any !'lnblic concern that the present goverm'li!nt of the province is not actively pursuing a determined line with the federal government on this important matter. MR. ROP.ERTS This Hay the paper v7ill he tablec'l . ...., <) :· l ' .l

February 15, 1977 Tape 288 IB-1 Vr. PEC1:FO?D: Yes. 1\nd since, }rr. Speaker, posing th:is statement today,the Nova Scotia government and the feceral government have signe0 an energy conservation package. I got the cletai_ls on it this morninr;, and subsequently I wired ¥r. Gillespie earlier tod~y the following telegram. "The hon. Alastair Gillespie, Hinis ter of Energy, r..fines and Resources, Ottawa. The Province of Ne\o.rfoundland is suffering under an extremely burdensome combination of high energy costs, high energy requirements, and a large and increasing dependence on expensive oil.

These factors, coupled w·ith low per capital incot:Le.,are creating extreme hardship for consumers in this Province. Our situation is in every logical way comparable 'tdth that prevailing in Prince Echvard Island and Nova Scotia which are to be the recipients of some $75 milllon :in energy conservation subs:idy fro~ the federal p.overnment.

"I am therefore once more requesting tl-.at the fec.eral gov~rnment grant to the Province of Ne\-Jfoundland and Labraclor an enerr;y conservation subsidy programme siMilar to that already giv~n to our neighboring provinces of Prince Edward Island and Nova Scotia." That has been sent - MR • Nl.TRPHY : Around the figure of $80 million on the radio today for Nova Scotia. }1R. PECKFO'P.D: There are varyj_ng figures of betFeen $63 million and $80 million. So, 1'r. Speaker, I table for the benefit of the hon. members here in the Eouse and for the press }.fF_. NEARY: Could the minister give the ones tabled? ~.

PEQCFOR~: I am tabling the letters on the dates that I have mentioned in the state~ent. AN RON. 1-lE'-'BF.n.: The one from the Prerl'ier to the Prime }~:inister? }fP. PECKFOR.n: Yes,and my mm letters and also the proposal that ~,re put to them v.rhich :inc1i cates in our opinion that our case is as rood as the other provinces. Thonk you, ~·r. Spea1~er. }fr:'. SPEAK.F.": The hon. Leader of the Opposition. NR. P.OI\EP.TS: Mr. Speaker, since I have not had,ohviously,an ... G I' l " l

February 15, 1977 Tape 288 IR-2 tfR. ROBEFTS: opportunity to look at these documents, my . reply must of necessity he some\vhat circumscribert. I am very tlad the minister has made this statement and I am very glad he has tabled the documents that he has tabled. I would hope that they will be quickly ~ade available to the members of the House. It does take a Y.'hile for these things to get around sometitl'es and I would hope they v:ill be quickly distributed to us. I would hope also that the minister vJOuld table the Prime Minister's letters.

Now I realize that cannot be done '1-Tithout the Pd.me Yinister's approval,and I ..;.muld be the last to suggest that we guilty of such a grave breach of courtesy as to do so v:i thout his approval, so I would ask the minister if he would undertake e:Lther himself'lor perhaps the Premier should do this, to get in touch with the Prime }finister to ask if the Prime }{inister v7ould agree to have his letters tabled here in the House. Because it is difficult to read the letter v7hich our Premier sent without at the same time bein~ ahle to read the reply, particularly vrhen there is a further reply.

I th:ink it is il"portant that \oJe see all of the facts. I 't-rill look forv Jarc to seeing the documents because it is my clear understanding.,without in any Y.Tay taking away from the !Perits of our case,that the real reason why we have not up until now received thjs assistance is of course the fact that we have been very much tardy and dilatory in pressing our case. NoY-', the Minister shakes his head . and well he may. But the documents v!:tll speak for themselves. The record will speak for itself. The Premier of Nova Scotia, Mr.

Regan, raised this Matter first !!lore than tY.TO years past in Ottavm and has been following it up assiduously, a matter ,.:hich is v7ell documented publicly. !Tovr, Sir, I make that observation. I 'tvj sh He could debate it at this point but Pe are not allmverl to accoriling to the rules. So I say He Hill be debatjng it because it is an important subject and I think the conc1uct of the ministry, Sir, as I underst~nc:l it, jn this matter \vill not st<mc1. up to the J.jgl lt of clay. You are ~-l rOnR. ..., (l .., ' . {

February 15, 1977 Tape 288 IB-3 1-fR. ROBEP.TS: Hell the min:ister says I am wrong, Sir. I happen to knmv the minister is wrong on a numl:oer of points. And if ever, Sir, MR. PECKFOP.D: I am not wrong about this point. 1-fP_. SPEAKER: Order, please! ~rr.. . ROBEPTS : Mr. Speaker, am I allmved to make my few comments ~dthout the minister interrupting me and trying to entice me into debater MR. PECKFORD: No debate. Y..ffi •• ROBEPTS: Mr. Speaker, the minister says I am ~7rong. I in turn surely would be allowed to say he is wrong and the facts will speak for themselves.

And if ever, Sir, ~!e get back to the debate in this House we will have the opportunity to examine some statements the minister made in debate where we can show conclusively, beyond any doubt that - well it is not a parliamentary term - he is very "Trang in Hhat he said in this Fouse on a number of points. }~r. Speaker, all I can say nm.;r is \ve shall read these documents "dth care and with attention. 1-Ie have seen only one side of the story.

I would hope the government V.T:Lll undertake to get the Prime :tfinister' s permission,assuming he \-1111 grant it, to table the letters which the Prime Yinister has sent our Premier and then, Sir, I say to the minister let him put down a motion on the Order Paper to examine the question c·f the conduct of the min:i stry in this w..atter and let us have a debate, and then, Sir, let the facts come out and let the people judge as they will. SQ}1E HON. ~"'ffiEPS: Hear, hear! ,.... (l '"" I , ,'\

February 15, 1977 Tape 289 PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, I want to take this opportunity of informing the House of the most recent Provincial bond issue, Euro-U.S. dollar issue of yesterday. The Province of Newfoundland, Sir, has successfully raised $50 million in the Euro-U.S. dollar bond market. This issue was the largest the Province has ever floated outside of North America, and it was very enthusastically received by the investors in Europe. SO}ffi HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

DOODY: The debentures are issued at a coupon of 9 per cent, and at a premium price of 100.5 to yield 8.73 per cent over the twelve year life of the issue. The debentures are dated February 15, 1977, and mature on February 15, 1989. The issue is co-managed by A.E. Ames and Company and Credit Commercial de France, along with Burns, Fry Limited, Deutsche - Girozentrale, Deutsche Communal- bank, The Credetbank of Luxenbourgeoise, Merrill Lynch International, Morgan Stanley, Societe General de Banque, and the Union Bank of Switzerland.

The issue, Sir, was increased from the original $40 million, which the Province intended to ask for in Europe or to sell, to $50 million due to the exceptionally strong demand for the Province's securities. The total indications from the full investment syndicate were in excess of $100 million, the book at the time of sale was of $100 million. The issue was managed out of Paris and reported in the media as being the most successful foreign borrowing of the month on the Euro market. This issue, Sir, completes the Province's borrowing programme for fiscal 1976-1977. SOME HON. }ffiMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

SPEAY~R: The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I do not know if it is cause for cheer that the Province is another $50 million in debt or not. But in the absence of my colleague, the member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir '10 n ' .l ''

February 15, 1977 Tape 289 PK - 2 Mr. Robe rts: (Mr. Simmons),who is in his district attending some public functions, let me say j~st three things. First of all, of course, we welcome the news that the government have com;Jleted their borrm•ing programme for the current fiscal year. They are not very far ahead of things because, of course, the currect fiscal year has only six weeks left to go. And I assume the government shortly, Sir, will be launching into whatever borrowing programme they may be authorized to carry out for the coming fiscal year.

Secondly, I wonder if the Minister of Finance could indicate to the House exactly how much is going to be the net draw do~m on this bond issuer If the face rate was $50 million, American dollars, I assume they were American dollars,were they? MR. DOODY: u.s. MR. ROBERTS: U.S. dollars, they are American, yes. I "Vmuld ask the minister how much we are actually going to get. Because, of course, one of the problems is that >ve must pay the gentlemen \vho manage these things.

And I do not begrudge paying them, but I 1:-muld like to kno~T hoH much ,,re pay them, because while "re have an obligation to repay $50 million, of course, you know, we do not get $50 million, we may only get $49 million or $48 million or whatever it is. HR. NOLAN: Like bonuses. MR. ROBERTS: 1-Je repay $50 million U.S together with interest at the rate of 9 per cent on $50 millions U.S., $450, I am sorry, $4.5 million U.S. dollars a year in interest going out, but \-lhat do v1e actually dra•• dmm? ~fuat receipts 1:vill actually come into our Treasury? The minister doubtless does not have the answer here.

But I would ask if he would undertake, please, to get it for us. And thirdly, Hr. Speaker, the minister has said that the rate is 9 per cent on the coupon, 8.75, I think, he said, on the effective rate, in other words?t\venty-five basic points off the coupon rate. HR. DOODY: The basic price is $100.

February 15, 1977 Tape 289 PK - ~ Hr . Roberts : Yes, you are paying $100 . 50 for every SlOO bond , but the basic rate is 8 . 75 effective on the face value. It is a little more than tha t if ,.,e have only borrO\ved $48 million or $49 millions . And I would be very surprised if close to $1 million or more has not been con sumed in the brokers' fees, in the lavryers 1 fees, the travel expens es and all the things that tend to get buried in bond issues . And I think it is time ~"e revived them . But could the minis ter also indicate , please, Hr .

Speaker, the going rate for recent bond issues in the Euromarket~ 8 . 75 in Canada , or in the U.S . '"auld be an extraordinarily good rate . Public borrowing in Canada today nine, 9 . 5 . Quebec is up I am tol d to 10 or 11 no'" , '.1hen they can sell their paper .. Our recent bond issues I think have been ten, 10 . 5, of that order. So ~01

February 15, 1977, Tape 290, Page 1 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: r:y question is what is the goinR rate in Europe? Is 8.75 a very good rate or a very bad rate or the average rate? Perhaps the minister could get in touch with the gentlemen in the syndicate \.rho manage these affairs for us . _ manage them perhaps well, but certainly lucratively. They are well paid for their services - if he could get from these gentlemen some information which would indicate exactly how our rate compares.

I welcome the news that our bonds sell so handily in the Euro dollar market, but of course that naturally raises the question, are we paying too much? I do not know w·hether we are on not, that is why I ask the Question, So I would be grateful if the minister could get that information and I would hope get it, obviously he cannot get it today, but fairly quickly. It should not be too difficult to get either piece of information, I repeat again, exactly how much 'l-7e dre\·7 down and tvhat expenses we paid'?

If the minister were so kind perhaps he could tell us how many la1ryers got paid and whether any Newfoundland firms got paid. Secondly - because, of course, Sir, it should be realized by the House even if the underwriters pay their o'm counsel that counsel is inevitably, shall we say, indicated by the government of the Province,and we are bearing the shot because the underwriters simply take it off the amount that they send through to the Province, and if we borrow $50 millions it comes out to, I do not knmv what, $l}8.S or $49 million probably. AN RON. MEMBER: It used to be Dick Green. MR. ROBERTS: Well, Mr.

Richard Green of the Bar of this Province has on occasion been paid for legal services in this connection. He may or may not, I do not knm,T, have been paid on this one . MR. DOODY: Curtis and Dawe are - MR. ROBERTS: I would think Curtis and Datve did admirable ,.mrk over the years, and Halley and Hicl-.lllan and a

February 15, 1977, Tape 290, Page 2 -- apb HR. ROBERTS: number of other firms have been involved in it. I merely ask who has been paid in Newfoundland, of the Newfoundland Bar with the Newfoundland taxpayer's money~and I would like to know as well, Mr. Speaker, as I said - you know, the going rate for issues in Europe to see whether we are getting a good rate or a bad rate. MR. DOODY: I think it is about average but I will get the information. MR. ROBERTS: Well, if the minister would get the information for me. I do not know whether it is average or not.

I have not recently borrowed any significant amount of money anywhere except at my bank here in St. John's and I wish they would give it at 8.7 per cent but unfortunately they do not. Anyway, Mr. Speaker, if the minister could get us that information then, I think, we \\TOUld be in a position better to judge the wisdom or otherwise of the ministry's actions in borrowing this money at this rate at this time. SOME RON. MEJ.ffi ERS : Hea.r,hear! PETITIONS 't-ffi.. SPEAKER: The han. the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I beg leave of the House to present a petition on behalf of 350 residents of Cow Head and St. Paul's in the Electoral District of St. Barbe North on the Great Northern - MR. ROBERTS: That is just St. Barbe. MR. NEARY: - St. Barbe South rather MR. ROBERTS: No, St. Barbe. MR. NEARY: In the Electoral District of St. Barbe on the Great Northern Peninsula. The prayer of the petition, Mr. Speaker, is that the 350 residents ~vho have applied their signatures to this petition are asking that they be able to retain their traditional rights of hunting rabbits in the Gros Morne National Park.

February 15, 1977, Tape 290, Page 3 -- apb MR. NEARY: Hr. Speaker, Just to give t:he members of the House an idea of what it is the 350 petitioners are asking for, I better read the prayer of the petition. "We the undersigned of Cm-1 Head and St. Paul's who are living inside the park boundary see no reason to be prohibited from catching rabbits in the park. This animal is of no value to the park. They have a seven year life cycle which means if they are not caught they will die anyvray. They are destroying - SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! 'MR. MURPHY: Say that again 'Steve'. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, members may think it "is funny but partridge - now as the hon. the Premier probably knows, the hon. the Premier is the expert on partridge in this House, partridge destroy themselves too, they eat one another. AN RON. MEMBER: How long? HR. NEARY: A year and-a-half. AN RON. MEMBER: And moose. MR. NEARY: No, they rot. They rot dow~ in Bay d 'Espoir. }fr. Speaker, they have a seven year life cycle and, Mr. Speaker, these people dm.rn there know what they are talking about. This is not a joke. They have a seven year life cycle which means that if they are not caught they \v-ill die anY\11ay.

"They are destroying the young birch and white wood trees by chewing the bark off. However, the park has a law stating that we cannot catch them within their boundaries. We 'tvould like to have this laH changed and be able to catch rabbits in areas 't-:rhere we t-1ere ahrays permitted to do so." The petition is ~ ("1 , ~-' J t

February 15, 1977 l1R. NEARY: signed.,as I indicated, Hr. Speaker, by 350 residents over the age of nineteen years. My understanding no"l-7 is, Sir, that petition can be signed by men and women over eighteen years of age but obviously these people did not know that. They were not informed by their member, Hho apparently the people in that particular part of Newfoundland have lost complete confidence and faith in. And so, Hr. Speaker, it is signed by residents over nineteen years of age. Now I realize, Mr. Speaker, this may be a federal matter. I am not quite sure if it comes under my good friend - MR. DOODY: Who?

Hho? Who is it? MR. NEARY: No, I am not sure if it comes under my good friend the Minister of Tourism, whether - AN HON. i'-I'EYJ3ER: Is it negotiable? 1'1R. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I am not sure if it comes under my hon. friend, the Hinistcr of Tourism, whether·tbat minister has the iurisdiction or not, or whether it is federal jurisdiction because it is a national park. Hell ~it really does not make any difference, }fr. Speaker, I was asked to present the petition on behalf of these 350 residents in this hon. House and I am obligated to do so.

If it comes .under federal jurisdiction~then I would assume that the minister responsible for Inter-governmental Affairs would bring it before the proper authorities in the Government of Canada. Anyway, Sir, it gives me great pleasure to support the prayer of this netition and IJask that it be placed upon the table of the House,ancl before I conclude my remarks I might point out that there is a precedent by the way~ for allovling people to carry on their traditional hunting rights in nat:i.onal uarks. HR.

DOODY : Guaranteed! .! · - ..,., r..L:~- . ....... ..,_._,, T-1--:'1 - .L.:.O....l..\.Ll.l.\..•~ --t --- - ' (.."'\ 1 ....... '- .. u'-.L<:"L..&... .. , I'I..J.J..L • ... t:::..LLLH."" . l. h:1s been constructed recent} v or is r~r~scntl~,r unc1.er construction,

February 15, 1977 Tape ~o. 291 NM- 2 MR. NEARY: the people were allo·,.;red to maintain their traditional hunting rights. And so there is a prece.dent, Sir, if it is federal juris:i.diction. I am not sure, perhaps the minister'l if the minister cares to comment on the petition,could tell us ~V'hether or not it comes under the minister's jurisdiction. But I supr>ort the prayer of the petition, Sir, ask that it be placed upon the table of the House and directed to the appropriate minister in the administration four immediate action. MR. SPEAKER: The hon member for Eagle River. MR. STRACHAN: Mr.

Speaker, in rising to support the prayer of the petition I should point out that the point that the residents bring up is a very fundamental point in the creation of national parks. Previously a national park Has created Hithout really much discussion with loc.al residents,and generally the park was made devoid of human life or if conmunities '"ere allmved to maintain within the park they had to restrict their traditional way of life.

Recently ,,rfth the concern of the Gros Marne National Park and the national park in Nova Scotia, vrhich created a good deal of furor in Ottawa, the National Parks policy changed and Baffin Island National Park, which was created t'vo years ago, allm ·red the people in Baffin Island the right to continue their traditional -vray of life. In other -vmrds, if they were hunting animals or fishing or w·hatever they were doing in the area of tlle park they ~vere pennitted to carry on this kind of activity.

The discussions are particularly important at the moment because we are faced \vithin this Province of thr creation of two national parks. Possibly two national parks, a national T' ..., ..-lr ·: -f-,., f- h ~ rn -- -.....--- #>-. ' - - - - -- _ ._ ......... o ..... - '1!(,_, • • - _ ....... ...: _,.., . . ................................. ~ · j . ..- .... -1 .. .:- - ... t...- ,, , ......... ,,... .. ,.. :!-~ountains near l1appy Va11 cy, Conse Bay in thf• district of the ~ {},. '· . ,l

February 15, 1977 T~pe No . 291 ?1R. STRACHAN: member for Naskaupi (Hr . Goudie) . And ,.,e have much concern of this because vJe feel the people \·1ant to maintain t hei r rights .,as do the people in Co1:-1 llead to continue their traditiona l uay of life in hunti ng and fishing~and that the national park should be an integral part of the Province . It shoul d not be an isolated

part in which people are moved out or rese ttled or tvhere the peop le are not allo•..,eo to cont inue their traditional tvay NM - 3 of life in hunting . And I stro ngly support the prayer of the petition . I think that the people haue eve ry right in the tvorld to continu e to fish, to trap , to hunt and should be an indigenous nart of t he park . A park shou l d not be something which is devoid totally of human life and people, and I hav e no hesitation in supporting the praye r of t he pe tition . SOME HON. ~fl:HBFRS : Hear! 'Hear. ! :-.; 0 .,

February 15, 1977 Tape no. 292 Page 1 - mw }L"Z. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I stand, too, to support the prayer of this particular petition. I un~erst~nd quite well the problems of the people as expressed in this petition,being that I also have a national park in my o~m district, and it can only affirm what the hon. member for Eagle River (1ir. Strachan) was saying.

I think in the establishing of these parks that there was not very much consideration given to the people that lived adjacent to and contiguous to the boundaries of the national parks, and how establishing these national parks, with the various rules and regulations; restricted people from hunting in the area and carrying on their traditional way of life, how this-would indeed change and restrict their lifestyles. So I just simply want to say that I support the prayer of the petition. SOI1E HON. HID1BERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Is the hon. gentleman speaking in support of this petition? MR·. FLIGHT: Yes, Sir.

HR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Hindsor - Buchans. YJ..R, FLIGHT: Hr. Speaker, I rise to support the petition in principle. But in supporting the petition I would like to dra\v to the minister's - and I would presume that if the prayer of this petition is to be implemented or if the people are to get what they are asking for, it would have to be done under the Department of Tourism. Sir, it is time that the Department of Tourism would recognize that you have to recognize people's basic rights in parks or anywhere else, but you also have to extend that into looking at their rights ten years do~ the road.

Now somebody said that rabbits got a seven year life cycle. That may well be, but if you wipe out all the rabbits in Ne\vfoundland, the cycle \vill suddenly not mean anything. You knO\v, if they are \viped out at the · three years into their cycle, there would be no rabbits left for a cycle. HR. HICK.if.l\.N: Point of order. HR. SPEAKER: A point of order has come up. c tl '" ' ' "

February 15, 1977 Tape no. 292 Page 2 - mw MR. HICI0f.t\l~: Ycur Honour, I realize , has been very, very generous on this petition, but I do submit that it is going way beyond a few brief comments and support thereof is becoming a debate. Certainly the cycle and the sex life 0£ the rabbit is not being debating in this House at this time. MR. ROBERTS: To that point of order. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: I happen to have a few references here, but that is another point. To that point of order, Hr. Speaker.

There is no rule of this House ~•hich requires - to quote the House Leader - "A few brief comments." The rules say that a member may speak in support of a petition, and that he shall not speak for more than five minutes. I believe it is Standing Order 92, although I do not have it before me. Ny friend and colleague from Windsor - Buchans (Hr. Flight) was speaking in support of the petition. I subnit his remarks were germane to the point of the petition. They certainly constit~ted support.

All that he is doing is saying that if we are to implement the prayer of this petition, and he said that he thinks it should be implemented, we should do so conscious of the consequences which it could have. And I may add, Sir, that my colleague is speaking only in the absence of any comment at all from the government side of the House. Obviously, Sir, they !le.ither knmv nor care sufficient to enlighten the House on the matter raised by the gentleman from LaPoile (Hr. Nearv) at the request of 300 or 400 people who live in the electoral district of St. Barbe.

I submit, Sir, that my colleague ·from Hindsor - Buchans (Mr. Flight) is in order, and he should be allowed to continue without this infantile and puerile harassment from the Government House Leader, Sir. SmiE HON. M2tiDERS : Hear, hear!

February 15, 1977 Tape no. 292 Page 3 - mw MR. SPEAKER: The rules with respect to what may be spoken SOHE HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! The rules with respect to what han. members may say, the tenor of their remarks in support of a petition, are quite precise.Apart from the statement of the parties and the number of signatures there should be no debate.

Standing Order 97, "An hon. member may speak with respect to the material allegations." 'Material allegations'essentially in this petition is a petition whereby people are asking for the right to be able to hunt rabbits in certain areas, and matters related logically and closely to that would be part of a material allegation. To stray far from that ~~uld be out of order. SOME HO~. HE~1BERS : Hear, hear! HR. FLIGHT: Thank you, Hr. Speaker. ·- I have no intention of saying anything that I feel is ·not germane to the petition, and if I do~ then I \·.rould ask Your Honour to interrupt me.

I do not see how one can either propose or oppose a petition if one is not permitted to point out facts that relate t.o that petition, and point out to the minister that in implementing the prayer of a petition that he should consider certain facts. The hon. member read in the prayer of the petition (.: . ll '. l

February 15, 1977 Tape 293 IE-1 FR. FLICHT: that one of the reasons the people of the district Hish to have their rights to snare rabbits retained is that they support that right with the fact that there is a seven year life expectancy and they \-rill aie anyway. So I would like to point out, Mr. Speaker, to this House a situation that exists relative to this. A short time ago "~>Te took it for granted, our right to go in the \voods and catch rabbits. ~.Jell let me tell this hon. Honse that the traffic on those access roads that ,,,e have built in the Province no\v is so heavy that one cannot park.

People are bringing 2,000 rabbits per family out of the woods. Now, I submit to the House that either the Department of Tourism take a hard look at that type of thing or the park that my 'bon. friend mentions will be the only refuge in this Province for anything left alive wild.

And in addressing himself to that petition and deciding whether or not he is going to recognize the prayer of the petition, then I \vould suggest to the mjnister in doing thRt that he \vould also recognize the desires of the people of Ne\·:foundland that some refuge be left in this Province because under our present Came La\·7S, five years dmm the road nothing vdll be 1 eft. I vmuld suggest, Jvlr. Speaker -- }'R. PECKFOP.D: ~T.. SPEAKEP: A point of order. A point of order has been raised. The hon. Finister of Hines and Energy. JI'!R. PECKFOP.D: Yr.

Speaker, the petition that vas presented hy the han. member for LaPoile (P.r. Neary),the prayer of the petition and the relevant points in the prayer had to do with the people in that area being allo·wec1 to snare or hunt rabbits wjthin the Cros ~~orne National Park. I suhmit, Mr. SpE;aker, that the hon. gentleman for vJindsor-Buchans (}1r. Flir-ht) is noH commenting upon the v.'holesale destruction of rabbits aroun<l . the Province and the need for governnent action to regulate and control and to ensure that there wi.ll al~rays be a supply of rabhi ts for our residents.

That is not reJevant to the particular point made bv the hon. meT!'hP1" fm· T . r-~ . Po:i le 0 1r. Ne~rv) in ld ~ net"lti nn- R 1 1

February 15, 1977 Tape 293 IB-2 ~. SPFJ\KET?: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. ~-· RORF.RTS: Yr. Speaker, ~ith ~1atever respect is due the gentleman for Green nay (Yr. Peckford) on his remarks, Sir, let me say that his remarks are ir.re}evant, offensive and ,I suggest,designed to obfuscate the point at issue. The point at issue, ~r. Speaker, in this petitton is a request to he allmved to hunt sorre rabbits in a certain part of the Province, specifically the area contained ~!ithin the boundaries of the Gros }~orne National Park on the Hest Coast in the district of St.

Barbe ,v!hose member to cate has not spoken on this point, and the gentlem~n for '-lindsor-Buchans (Hr. Flight) in speaking in support of this petition is making some observations with regard to the continuance of an adequate supply of rahbits in the Province. Now, Sir, nothing could be more germane,because if there are no rabbits in the Province, I ~wuld say to the hon. r,:entlernan for Green Bay (J'-1"r. Peckford) ~there ,.;rou] d be none in the park.

And it is therefore fair to say in speaking of a petit:ton ~d.th respect to the hunting of rabbits in the J';:'ational Park that one nay make some observations surely, Sir, with respect to the hunting of rabbits throughout the Province being as the National Park :is of course contained within the Province. I '\<70Uld say, Six, in conclusjon,to the gentleman for Green Hay (Yr. Peckford) that where bis mentor, the house leader cannot succeed, he, Sir, would be Hell-advisecl to sit back and let the rules be observed by hon. rentlemen here as they are and let the debate go ahead without furtber interruption.

SOVE HON. J~m·fBF.PS: Hear, hear! MR. HICKl'fAN: I concur '"ith the rei!larks made by tbe hon. the Leader of the Opposition. The 1'\ember for Hindsor-Buchcms (}.fr. Plip.;ht) J is indeed wanclerinp; far and wide from supporting this petHion and obviously he is not supporting: the petition because he is pointing out to the House the '"holesale destruction of rabbits in this Province lmereas the petit:ion seeks the rir,ht to destroy rabbits in the Gros ~forne National Park. I subrrdt, Yr. Srea1c.er, that this most r>ssureclly has ~eveJoped into ~ deb~te 2nd does not in a~y wav constitute· the R 1 '> l _ . ... l '

February 15, 1977 Tape 293 JB-3 ,. lffi. HIC'K'M"AU: hon. member confining himself to the material allegations contained in the pet:i.t:i.on before this House. Sm~ HON. }"F.}'BERS : Hear, hear! MF . SPEA. •P : After listening to the learned submissions of hon. gentle!'len to my left and to my rlr>ht , I feel J. am novl in a position to nake a decision on this matte I Hill not repeat Standing rders 92 and 97 again be c::tuse that has been frequently cl.one.

The overall format,or t he overaJl principle of pe t itions is to~ ell stated by Beauchesne and I thin k 5.s uite relevant . 1'The right of petitioning the Cr.mm and ryarliament for redress of grievances is ackno{ .:ledgecl as a fundamental prind .ple of the constitution,and has been uninterruptedly e.·ercised fro very early times . 11 And it also goes on later to say - this · s one page 256 - 11 It is no _doubt the birthright of ever Canad:ian to apply to parliament for the redress of grievances .

" Certainl• in our oPn lep, isla nre the procedure an practice t·~:i. th respect to petit:i ons has een ve y •ide and this right ha s never . een den:i.ecl . It has almost in •aria bly been the custo m that petitions are not the cause Clf cont en t ion bet,-:een hon . mel!lbers on eli ferent sic1 e~ o · the .l ouse . •. 1 ' l I • \

February 15, 1977 Tane No. 294 NM - 1 HR. SPEAKER: It would aprear to me that the whole concept behind petitioning,and the right of the citizen to petition,would suggest that when proceedings are contentious that somehow that - not the right is being underminen, but its exercise is being made quite difficult.

With resrect to the actual petition, as far as I recall the hon. member was speaking on the subject of the hunting of rabbits and was putting forward ,.,hat he considered to be some relevant data with respect to that and relevant data with respect to his supporting the allegation of the netition, and in my opinion it was in order. Let us say it would be very difficult when peoDle ~peak extemporaneously,as hon. members do, and as they are required to do, not to read speeches, to clinically examine every word and phrase to the extent that - that kind of an analysis.

To the best of my knowledge tne han. member ,,•as speaking on the material alle gation which was hunting of rabbits. SO~ fE liON. HEXBERS: Eear! Hear! '~-IR. FLIGHT: Thank you very much, ~lr. Sreaker. I think that I have made my point. I hope I have made my point.

And in closing I would ,.,ant to say that in as far as defending the basic rights of people in Newfoundland, and I support the prayer of the petition, I simply ask that the Minister of Tourism vrould indicate implementing the prayer of the petition, that he has more of a handle. that he is more m.;are of '"hat is happening to our ,,1 ildlife than the policies of tourism as they are being administered in this Province right now. Thank you. "'-f.R. SPEAKER: Any han. gentleman speaking on the present petition? The hon. menher for Trinity - Bay de Verde. HR. nmm: '1r.

Sneaker, I would like to support my friend and l' 1 I ,, . . ,

February 15, 1977 Tape No. 294 NH- 2 ~1R. ROHE: 350 residents of Cow Head and St. Pauls in the District of St. Barbe. Sir, I ·made many friends when I served the original district of St. Barbe North,and I shared many of the concerns of the people nm.1 in the ne~v- district of St. Barbe, Sir. And I fully support the prayer of the petition p~esented by the member for LaPoile and Sir, may I just end by saying this, that I find it quite astounding-he -has disappeared altogether now-- that the member for the district has not spoken in support of this particular petition and I invite him to do so . .

SOME HON. :MEl-ffiERS : Hear! Hear ! }~. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Bay of Islands. :t-!R. WOODR01..J : Mr. Speaker, before I present a petition I would ) like to - HR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, a brief point of order, Sir, I do not uish to, nor could I even if I Hished to)prevent the han. gentleman from Bay of Islands (!-fr. Hoodrow) presenting a petition. We will enjoy that, Sir.

But there , may be other hon. gentlemen who wish to speak in respect of the one that has been presented by the gentleman from LaPoile, and I would suggest, Sir, that perhaps the gentleman from Bay of Islands could contain himself for just a moment or so. I had understood the gentleman from St', Barbe (Mr. ~aynard) had indicated he '"ished to speak in sup'{lort of that petition. MR. WHITE: The ~finister of Tourism too. }~.

ROBF.RTS: And the Minister of Tour ism -and, Sir, I certainly ,,•auld not want to see them cut off _ in the eagerness of the gentleman from Bay of Islands to do his duty as he sees it by his constituents. SOME RON. MF.HBF.RS: Hear! Hear! ~1R. HICJ0t.\N: }1r. Speaker, it is <' fundamental rule of this House that the Chair and the Chnir only recognize the member for B2y of Is]ands U·fr. ~-!oodrm.

r) ancl I hnve never

February 15, 1977 Tape No. 294 MR. HICKMAN: heard such a preposterous point of order raised in this House before. At the time I recognized the hon. gentleman to my left,I 'l..:ras not at·Tare that any other bon. gentleman rose. If in fact any other gentleman wishes to speak to the previous l)etj~tion, then the hon. memher for Bay of Islands (l-1r. Woodrow), having been recognized, is in fact recognized, he would probably be asked to yield by an bon. gentleman who wished to speak to the previous petition and without being able to read his mind I presume he would do so,but obviously I do not know.

Does the hon. gentleman ~..:rish to speak to the previous petition? MR. NOLAN: That is right. MR. SPEAKRR• Does the hon. member for Bay of Islands yield? MR. WOODROW: Ye~, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Then the han. member for Conception Bay South. HR. NOLAN: Thank you. SOME HON. MEHBERS: Oh, oh! HR. HICJ0'.AN: 1.Jnat an absolute abuse! HR. ROBERTS: ~{r. Speaker, to a point of order, Sir. I distinctly heard the hon. gentleman the House Leader that this process \vas an abuse of the House. NoH, Sir, that can only be construed as a defiance of Your Hono'ur's ruling.

Your honour made a ruling~and my colleague for Conception Bay South (Mr. Nolan) asked the gentleman from Bay of Islands (~·1r. Woodrow) whether he 'lvould yield. The gentleman from Bay of Islands indicated he would yield., Hy colleague vJas about to hegin a few brief remarks in support of the petition when the Rouse Leader very loudly, Sir, very loudly said, "An abuse of the House," and that, Sir, can only he a defiance of Your Honour's ruling. HR. NOLAN: Hi thdra~v 'Alex', 'l..:rithdraw.

February 15, 1977 Tape 295 PK- 1 MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! SOME RON. t-;E!-1BERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: Order, please! The hon. Leader of the Opposition has on a point of order put forward his opinion that the statements by the han. Minister of Justice were a comment upon the ruling of the Chair. If they were so~I would ask the han. genlteman to withdraw them, and if they were , not then to inform the House that they in fact were not. MR. HICKMAN: Your Honour,they most assuredly were not meant to reflect at all upon the Chair, but rather upon the behaviour of the hon. gentleman opposite. smm RON.

NEH:BERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Conception Bay South. MR. J. NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, in rising to speak to the petition I do so,and I might say that I would have risen before, but I did see my hon. friend opposite rise earlier, and I was under the impression, as were others, that he was going to speak in support of this petition, the member for Grand Falls (Mr. Lundrigan). SONE RON. MEHBERS: Oh, oh! HR. NOLAN: If it is permissible, I would like to thank my hon. friend opposite~ by the ,,.ay, for giving way. vJhat we merely would like to do, }lr.

Speaker, is to support the prayer of the petition. I do not propose to have all the ans\·Jers on the life span of the rabbits there or anywhere else. But the fact is the people in the communities concerned traditionally have had certain rights which they have depended on for food. And it is all very well for those who can go off to the supermarket to be high and mighty about this, but this is a real problem for some of them. Maybe those opposite in responsible positions together with their colleague~ in the federal government can bring about some ans\ver and some solution.

All we are asking is surely that someone should try. SOME HON. HEXBERS: Hear, hear! HR. NOLAN: So we certainly do support th~ petition. SOME RON. HEl'lliERS: Hear, hear! (\ 1 ,, i' i

February 15, 1977 Tape 295 PK - 2 MR. SPEAKER: Any other bon. member wishing to speak to the petition presently before the House? The bon. member for the Bay of Islands. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. L. WOODROW: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. May I first of all, Mr. Speaker, before presenting my petition congratulate the hon. member from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) for so ably presenting his. MR. NEARY: Thank you very much, Sir. · SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WOODROW: I would like now to read the prayer of the petition, Mr.

Speaker, because this is a very important petition we have here today. 11 We the undersigned do hereby petition the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador on behalf of the Sunset Park tenants situated in Corner Brook, in the Electoral District of the Bay of Islands,to urgently bring before the House legislation' to include mobile homeowners in The Landlord and Tenant Residential Tenancies II Act, 1973. I would like to make the following comments on the petition, Mr. Speaker.

The importance of this petition is borne out by the fact that a Delegation of two people brought it in from Corner Brook yesterday to have it presented to the House today, and these two people are presently in the galleries of the House. Involved are ninety-two mobile homeowners or one hundred and eighty- four married couples plus children. At least ten families have received eviction notices for February 28.

In order to prevent these tenants from being put out in the dead of Winter, I am asking that Bill No. 16, "An Act To Amend The Landlord Tenant Residential Tenancies Act" take precedence over all o·ther matters in the House today. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. \\TOODRm\1: And would ask the support of all han. members on this matter. Number five, these people are being evicted for it seems no apparent justifiable reason.

February 15, 1977 Tape no. 296 Page 1 - mw Mr. Woodrow. Number six, I have talked the matter over with the bon. Minister of Consumer Affairs and Environment, and also the hon. House Leader, the bon. Minister of Justice. And finally, Mr. Speaker, before the delegation returns to Corner Brook, they want to be assured that this bill will be passed with all haste, and before the pending date of eviction. Now I understand that it has received first reading, and I now lay this, Hr. Speaker, on the table of the House of Assembly for its consideration. SOHE HON. ME}1BERS : Hear , hear! MR. SPEAKER: 1:-lR.

NOLA.L'l': The han. member for Conception Bay South. Hr. Speaker, I rise on behalf of all the people in our caucus to support t:he petition so very well tabled by our han. friend opposite. And this is a matter that has been discussed, not this particular matter, but in this House before. Now my bon. friend opposite surely realizes, I am sure, that Bill 16 can, if the hon. gentleman opposite wished,. bring this bill before the House this afternoon and have it debated and have it settled one way or the other, but that is up to the government to bring this in.

We have, as he says, ninety-two mobile homeow~ers involved, ten families about to be evicted, and here is a situation where we have once again, I submit, Hr. Speaker, where mobile homemmers, who for whatever reason live in mobile homes, are, I believe, as has often been the case in this Province, mistreated. And I submit now to our hon. friend opposite that in supporting this bill.,or in supporting rather his petition, which ''e do most heartedly, that if he can convince his friends opposite to bring this bill up this afternoon, everyone here will support him in his endeavour. SQI.IE RON. HDIBERS: Hear, hear~

February 15, 1977 Tape no. 296 Page 2 - mw HR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. }1R, NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I rise to whole-heartedly support the petitio~ so ably presented by my hon. !riend the member for Bay of Islands in behalf of ninety-two mobile home mmers in Sunset Park in the district of Bay of Islands. The member, Sir, in presenting the petition pointed out to the House that it is possible to have that particular bill, Bill No. 16, 11An Act To Amend The Landlord And Residential Tenancies Act, 11 to have that bill brought before the House this very day providing, Mr.

Speaker, that the Government House Leader sees fit to call that particular order of business. SOME RON. HEHBERS: Hear, hear! }~. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the han. member did not mention this particular significant fact in presenting the petition and that is, Sir, that ten homeowners are being presently evicted because they refused to pay a ·five per cent commission to the owner of Sunset Park. People who did not pay the five per cent cormnission on their mobile home are being asked to get out. And that is Hhy, \.

Sir, it is urgent - and the member tried to impress that upon the House - it is urgent that this matter be brought before the House as quickly as possible and made retroactive,if possible 7to protect these ten mobile homeowners who are now under notice and who will be evicted later on this month from their homes. MR. SMALLWOOD: What is the five per cent for? MR. NEARY: The five per cent commission? Nobody knows what it is for. It is just an arbitrary five per cent commission. HR. S~.ALLWOOD: lfuat does he say it is for? MR.

NEARY: Well he does not give any justifiable reason for it except that he wants to collect five per cent co~mission on every mobile home that goes in his park immaterial of who sells it or where it is bought. It is a surtax. It is a rip-off, that is what it is, Sir. And these particular ten tenants - as a matter of fact there was a case

February 15, 1977 Tape no . 296 Page 3 - mw Mr . Near y . before the court , and the judgement was handed dovm in favour of the ten tenants 0 And then just because the owner of Sunset Park got contrary, because he lost the case, he gave notice that these ten par t icular mobile home ovmer s that they were going to be evicted . And , Mr. Speak er , as the hon. member indicated~there is a cross

section of people involv ed. You have engine ers , school teachers , old age pensioners, I believe , being evicted in the ten people that are now under notice . And if the }tinister of Justice, Sir , is doing his duty at all to the people of this Province , he Hill call that order of business today. I am prepared, Sir. I am the speaker this afternoon in the Throne Speech . I am prepared to forego that for an hour or two, and ~ 21

February 15,1977 Tape 297 AH-1 HR. NEARY: let us get dmm and debate Rill 16 and make it retroactive to protect these people in Sunset Park out in the district of Ray of Islands. smm HOI\. ~1ENBERS: Hear, hear! NR. SPEAKER: Han. member for Twillingate. HR. SHALU-!OOD:Hr. Speaker, I have every possible sympathy lvith people who live in mobile homes, not because I happen to have a ·brother >vho lives in one, but because I know many people ~•ho do, in many parts of the province.

And I have to say to the House that I have no sympathy at all, none at all.,,vith the feeling the~e seems to be, not perhaps in ministerial circles,because I do not know of any such feeling in ministerial circles, but it seems to be in offical circles, civil service circles, there seems to be a positive, a very definite and a very positive prejudice against the exixtence of mobile homes. SO!'-fE HON. HEHBf.RS: Hear, hear! HR. SMJ\LUJOOD: Nm• my sympathy is entirely \-lith the mmers of "mobile homes.

I do not see anything "t·Jrong >vith them, anything, provided they are laid out properly, provided there is water and sewerage, provided there is electricity, provided there is collection of garbage and so on, provlded the thing is operated decently I see nothing ,._,·hat--so-ever against them. And having said that and to that extent supporting the prayer of the petition that the hon. gentleman has brought in, I am curious about the reason for the evictions. First of all,I suppose the eviction is by order of a court. I do not suppose the owner of the park can just order them out, he cannot evict them.

He can only go to a court~and only the court, I take it, can evict them. Hhat reason has he given the court? Hhat reason has the court got to or_der their eviction[The court would have to have some reason. And if the reason is non-navment of a contractual amount, if they have contracted to pay 5 per cent of something or other.,

February 15,1977 Tape 287 AH-2 MR. SHALL HOOD: '·le have not been told what it is 5 per cent of of what is it 5 per cent, but if that is the reason-they have contracted to pay and have not paid it-I suppose the court would have no choice but to order their eviction. The 'Hinister of Justice, as I ~vould expect is listening - HR. NEARY: The first step is a la'~'er, the lawyer sends him a letter; the next step would be to court. MR. S1-fALLHOOD: He has not as yet gone to court?

The Hinister of Justice is listening intently, I am not familiar ,.,ith the Bill that is on the Order Paper that the bon. members are demanding should be brought fon..rard here today,because it apparently is an emergency , apparently it has not as yet come into court and apparently if it is to be headed off it ought to be dealt with here today. But I wish someone ~vould tell us lvhat is this 5 per cent for?

If it I is an amount 'vhich the tenant agreed to nay -'1-.'hethcr rightly or wronElY, they agreed to pay it- if it forms part of the contract, then ·.,.,hat is wrong ,1:vhat is it, Hhat are '"e up against, ,.hat is the real basis of the coMplaint? With these exceptions I heartily support the prayer of the petition. SO~-u;: RON. J'!EHT:'·Ef-S: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Justice. HR. HIC101AN: :-tr.

Speaker, I am supporting the petition simply to get t'he facts. before the House. ~)orne of the petitioners -and I met with their representatives yesterday=some of the petitioners are in possession of a notice to quit the premises,and this notice to quit exnires on February, 28, 19 77. This is a notice to quit, ?· ~r. Speaker, froM the solicitors for the landlord, ·the 01:..Tner of the property in question upon which those mobile homes are ,situated .

Government gave notice of a bill ~rhich has had first reading dealinp.; Hith , a!T!ong other things, the question of mohile homes and there is a provision under clause 1 of a biJ.l "An Act To Amend The Landlord and Tenant (~esident:iaJ Tenancies) Act (Rill liS)

February 15,1977 Tape 287 AH-3 MR. HICK}li\N: a provision to bring mobile homes Hithin the scope of the act. This we i~tend to bring hefore the House on second reading and I am sure that I can-listening to the spokesman from the offical opposition and from the hon. gentlemen from T-;.Jillin~ate and LaPoile, that it will be supported , this government measure will be supported.

February 15, 1977 Tape 298 IB-1 The ~entleman ~·Jho presented the petition asked me if I could give them as';overnment House ' Leader an assurance that this bill would be brought before the House in sufficient time for it to be thorougly debated and passed and assented to by February 28, 1977. That is approximately thirteen days from novJ. I can publicly and I will give that assurance to the petitioners. I do not Hant to bring it before the House today l:lecause the b:Ul has to and must go back to the legislative draftsmen.

One has to proceed with a ~reat deal of caution when you are dealing vJith legislaUon to deal with a particular problem with a particular group of people. That is very fundamental to any kinc1 of lep.islation. But may I assure the petitioners on behalf of govern'l!!ent that this matter \-!ill be brought before the House. I am sure that they can count on the government's bill being supported'And the chief legislative draftsman will very thoroughly review the bill to see what amendments if any are necessary ,.,hen the bj 11 comes into Committee. SOl·'E HON. }~}!B'F.PS: Hear, hear!

FR • SPEfJCE'P : Are there any further speakers on this petition? Are there any further petjtions? The han. member for Bellevue. MR. CALLA.'!: }~r. Speaker, I beg ]eave to present a petition on behalf of ninety residents who live in the tm.m of Come By Chance. Now these residents of Come By r.hance, }~r. Spea.ker, have had some setbacks, as everybody in the Province hwv.rs and perhaps everyhody in Canada knov.1s.

But the prayer of thfs particular petition is - and I vdll read the prayer - it says, "We the undersigned citizens of the community do hereby re(]uest that the first phase or - they mention first phase~! suppose,hecause this is hm·1 jt is usually done in the last several years at least - the first phase or completion of a VJater and sewer systeM be put jn Come By Chance.'' There js a second aspect to the pctitjon. It says, "Also v.:e vmnt the freeze on Crmm J ;~.nd rerr.ovcd as it is essential for the expansion ancl development of our cor.JJTlunity. He, the peop]e, feel that

February 15, 1977 Tape 298 IB-2 1-'fl' • CALLAN : we are not being treated the same as other corrmuniti_es i.n this area. in that V.'e have tri.ed on several occasions to have these satrte demands met. These trtatters ar.e considered very urgent and important, and you may be assured that our efforts 'ldll continue until vTe receive the required consideration.~: Nm.;r, :Hr. Speaker, the drafters of this petition,wh:! .ch I think is headed by the tm.vn council at Come By Chance, have already made application for water and se'1-1er and have also maC!e application to have these freeze on the CroTNn land removed.

This was done at least last year because I had a delegation coma in fro~ Come By Chance representing the council there who talked about these tvro trtatters to the appropriate officials here :!.n St. John's. 'Xr. Speaker, the people are asking for a "-'ater and sevrer system i.n Come By Chance. Now there i.s a lot that could be said regarding the subject of water and sewer systems and Hhere they go and why'land what have you ,and 'l..:rhere they do not go ,e.nd why. However, there is a danger there of entering the rea]m of debate.

So all I .. ,rHl say - and I 'l·lill risk entering that realm - it seems quite strange to me at least representinp, the district of Bellevue,in Hhich of course Come By Chance is located, that five water and sever projects '1\rere carried on last year in one pe.rticular district and other distr:! .cts -.;,-.h.o have been looking for water and sevrer for their tmms for years have not been justly treated. I can talk 2bout Sunnysicle~'lmich is next door to Come By Chance. They have been asking for water and se'l<~er. They started with water and sev.,er and then they sw:!.tched and they just asked for water.

In the last seve raJ years they have been asving for 'lvater only. And Norman's Cove, the community in ph:fch I live, has been dcing the same thing for the past several years. Some strange things happened. 8 2

f) February 15, 1977, Tape 299, Page 1 -- apb MR. CALLAN: When these t\,'O comn:uui ties \vere under another electoral district, Trinity South, Mr. Speaker, they were pretty close to getting water and se~~er and then for some strange reason the water and sewer went to anbther community which would no longer be in the district represented by a certain individual - MR. FLIGHT: Shameful! Shameful! MR. CALLAN: - who, of course, was the successful applicant when that water and sewer was given to a community in which that member decided to run for a future election. MR.

ROBERTS: The member was not successful,as I recall it. MR. CALLAN: He was unsuccessful but he was successful in getting the contract for the water and sewer in - MR. ROBERTS: He got the contract in that district. HR. CALLAN: That is true, in that particular community. I would not mention the community, Hr. Speaker. I have nothing at all against a community like Heartts Delight or any other community in this Province getting ~~ater and sewer because I knm.r they probably need it, but the way it is granted is utterly contemptible. Hr.

Speaker, I support the prayer of the petition whole-heartedly and I ask that this petition be tabled and referred to the department to which it relates. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Are there any further petitions? Speakers on petitions? ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR lol!UCH NOTICE H..I\S BEEN GIVEN MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Social Services. MR. BRETT: Mr. Speaker, I should like to table the answer to a question asked by the hon. the member for Burgee, is it?

There were two parts ot the question; the first one said, "Give the locations, places and the type of employment of the 5,000 chronic welfare recipients who were removed from Social Welfare to productive employment during the years 1972, ~ ') , .. I '-" J

February 15, 1977, Tape 299, Page 2 -- apb MR. BRETT: to 1976. 11 The secGr1d part of the question is; 11 Indica te how many of these .1 obs were on Local Initiative Pro.iects or other Federal sponsored projects. 11 MR. NEARY: That is the member for LaPoile. MR. BRETT: Lapoile, I am sorry.· I wi 11 not read it, Mr. Speaker • The evening is getting late and we have not done very much business so I .will just table it. MR. NEARY: May I have a copy of that? MR. BRETT: Yes, I have a copy for everyone. ORAL !}UESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Education, Sir. I wish to refer to the negotiations, whatever state they are in, currently under way between the Newfoundland Teachers' Association on one hand,representing the . teachers of the Province,and the government on the other hand, as represented therein by the Treasury Board.

Could the minister please tell the House, Sir, exactly what steps he as Hinister of Education has taken in an e~fort to try to resolve the difficulties which apparently, up until today, have not been resolved and 'tvhich have led to at least the threat of a withdrat.;ral of services or a strike? MR. SPEAKER: The hen. the Minister of Education. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, the negotiations are being carried on headed up by Treasury Board and, of course, ~o1e have a member representing the Department of Education on that board.

I think the question should be to the President of Treasury Board rather than to the Minister of Education. MR. SPEA.l(ER: A supplementary. NR. ROBERTS: My question did not talk of the negotiations themselves, Sir, or I would have directed it to the gentleman who heads the Treasury Board. May I phrase a dHferent question, Sir? Could the Hin:i.ster of Education tell us whether he as a minister, the minister responsihle in

February 15, 1977, Tape 299, Page 3 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: in the first instance for the a~~inistration of our educational systems,whether he as minister has taken any. steps at all to try to resolve these difficulties? SPEAKER: The hon . the Minister of Education . MR . HOUSE: Mr . Speaker, I have had no negotiations ~ith the Newfoundland teachers . I have had some contact with the president and,of course, I have had contact ~~th Treasury Board and, of course, the se have been private conversations. MR. SPEAKER: A suppl ementary . H.R. ROBERTS: Is the minister prepar ed to take any steps in an effort t o try to resolve a series of diffi culti es ~-1hich may well lead to a strike? ' ') 'l I -

February 15, 1977 Tape 300 PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. l'finister of Education. MR. W. HOUSE: Nr. Speaker, the last thing lve want is a strike, and I will assure the han. member that we will be taking any steps that we can to avert a strike. MR. F. RO\-.TE: MR. SPEA..l{ER: de Verde. MR. ROVlE: A supplementary. A supplementary, the hon. member for Trinity-Bay Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a supplementary to the Minister of Finance on the same subject, Sir.

In view of a poss-ibility of a teachers' strike, and the fact that the teachers are still quite flexible on the salary issue, would the minister consider dropping his insistence in changing the pension pla~ legislation until a final actuarial study has been completed, Hhich would indicate whether or not the present plan is actuarially sound or not P MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. HR. DOODY: Mr.

Speaker, as I have indicated to the House yesterday, and have indicated publicly before~ and have indicated to the President of the NTA and to others through Treasury Board officials, government is prepared to sit dmm and discuss anything at any time. The details of the discussion, of course, in any collective agreement cannot be made in a public forum because they are meaningless, If that is the case the NTA does not need a bargaining team nor does government.

We will undertake to report to the House developments as they occur, Sir, Certainly we cannot make commitments, statements and make the sort of statement that the hon. member is asking for becau;e it would be in complete violation · of the spirit of collective bargaining. I have indicated on behalf of government that we are flexible. \ole are lvilling to sit down and talk. If the people from NTA want to come in tomorrow and sit dolVD and discuss it -with us again, we ''ill go through the ,,,hole thing again.

The ultimate aim of government is to find a solution to this impasse, and hopeful He will do so, despite the fac.t that we are under considerable pressure

February 15, 1977 Tape 300 PK - 2 Mr. Doody: from everybody, not the least from the Minister of Education who has hounded me and lashed me and kicked me ruthlessly for not being more flexible on behalf of the teachers. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. DOODY: The Minister of Education has been after me relentlessly to try to be more flexible and to give more, but on behalf of Treasury Board I am in a somewhat different position. But as I have said we are only too willing to sit down and talk about any of the issues under discussion, and including the pension plan.

And, you know, if these people want to come in tomorrow and sit down we are available. MR. ROWE: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. ROWE: Am I correct in understanding that a preliminary actuarial study has been completed? Mi.. DOODY: Right. MR.

ROWE: Now could I ask the minister what the hurry is in changing that pension plan legislation1 \Vhy cannot the minister sit dmvn and have a final detailed actuarial study done and completed and negotiated, sit down with the NTA, the government and the NTA sit do~-m and look at a final actuarial study, it might take a year, and then,if necessary, change the pension plan legislation. What is the hurry at the risk of a strike, a teachers' strike? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: Mr.

Speaker, with all negotiations, with all deliberations, with all sectors of the public service the Treasury Board deals with there is always the imminent or at least the danger of a strike. That is obviously the ultimate weapon that the union has in a collective bargaining arrangement. The hurry is obviously then not in in any way involved with the desire to precipitate a str1·ke. Th t · a J .s, as the hon. Hinister of Education has indicatedjthe last thing that government wants to do. The urgency in changing the collective bargaining language to give r,overnment the right of consultation ,-, ,{\ .. ~~~ - I

February 15, 1977 Tape 300 PK - 3 Mr. Doody: as regarding the amount of premium that is paid into the pension fund is an urgent matter,because that is part of the subject matter that is under discussion, it is part of the collective agreement that is now· being discussed by Treasury Board people and by the NTA and by the school boards.

The urgency is simply an urgency of the fact that the agreement is under discussion at the present time, and that is the whole subject, you know, if it were not a part of the collective bargaining process then there would be no urgency, but it is a matter under discussion, and that is whey it is an urgent matter. MR. ROWE: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. One further supplementary. MR. RmvE: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the minister's answer.

Could the minister indicate to the House, Sir, at approximately what time it is anticipated that there will be a liability ag<:.inst the plan?t-·Because last year as the minister knows there were $1.25 million paid into the Consolidated Revenue Fund over and above the contributions that were made to the teachers in the way of pension. When does he anticipate a liability against the plan? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Finance. MR. ROWE: That was one of the stated reasons -I am sorry,

February 15, 1977 Tape 301 IB-1 1f!L Rm.ffi: Vr. Speaker- that Y.'as one of the stated reasons hy the minister for wanting to change hts legislatio-n. llR. SPEAKER : The han. Hinister of Fin<=tnce • .J.T. DOODY: l~r. Speaker, I think there is a misconcept;ion there. It is not a change in legislation, Sir, it is a change j_n a collective agreement, and I think that ts a very radical difference.

We are trying to m.ake this consultative arranzement in the pension premium benefit now in anticipation of a possible disarrangement of the amount of money for which the plan may be liable in five, ten, twenty, thirty years do~n the line. He are not antidpating any great charge against the pension fu~d next year. In 1957 or 1958 or 1959 the government paid out more money than i_t took in. Last year the government took in more money than it pai_d out.

SomeHhere do~m the line there is goinr, to have to be an arrangement made which is equitable to both sirles. 'lliat we are asking for i_n t;is parttcular set of negotiations is the right of consultation rather than havinp; the NTA given the complete veto po·h'er over hm-1 much money they should pay into the plan. I have tried to explain this on ·many occasions, but I have had great difficulty in ~ettinp, the rressage across. \·Je are not antictpating or trying to chanr,e any of the benefits of the plan.

The plan in terms of benefits is superior to any of the other general service plans or the civil service plans generally. V-1e do not want to reduce that. Pe c1o not want to reduce the age limit. He do-not want to reduce any of the benefits. We are simply asking for the ri£ht of consultation on the premium amount. And that is i_n the language of the present collective agreement and we are asking that it be changed. The NT!-. takes a dj_fferent stance.

And as I say, you knov, if they want to ~orne in and have another c1iscussion about it tomorrm;;, you kno\-7, ~1e ~·ill do everything \-Je possibly can to 1-mrk it out. I am s:irn.ply pointing out the dilennna that goverm,ent fincis itself in,because it is responsib]e utirrately on bcha]f of the taxpayers on payinc, the charpes ~gai. nst thjs pl;m durinr; the years to colT'e. This

February 15, 1977 Tape 301 '!'-f'R. DOODY : year and last year are not problems, you knm,•, but obviously ~re have got to look at the generations in the future. 't-'R. SPEAKEP: The ·hon. member for LaPoile. I IB-2 }fP.. NEARY: Yr. Speaker, I yrould like to direct a question to the han. Minister of Fisheries. Hou)d the minister indicate to the Rouse what effect the recent takeover of the fish plant in'Isle aux Morts by Connors Brothers vrill have on that community? l'ffi. SPE.AI\J'SR: }1R. H. CAP.TEn: The hon. Yinister of · Fisheries. '!'-~r. Speaker, the B.C.

Packers plant in Isle aux Morts \olas transferred to Connor Brothers some months ago, and meetings have been held since •·lith that company to determine exactly wrat their plans are and to v?hat extent do they intend to expand the operation. He are satisfied that they are going to make an effort to expand the operation anc1 maybe to get more heavily :i.nvolvecl in other types of de-..relopment~ancl I look upon that transfer of o·,mershj_p as being very significant, and I think :it w511 have some very beneficial effects on the co111.munity and on tlle fishery :in that area. MR. NEAP.Y: A supplementary. J-m..

SPEAKEP: A supplell'entary. MR. NEAP.Y: Is the minister a~i'are that since ~onnor Brothers took over that fifteen of the permanent employees of that plant have been served notice that their services are no longer required? Is th:is the kind of beneficial effect the minister is talking about? HR •. H. CA"?-TF.r>: I am rather surprised, Hr. Speaker, to hear the member because at one point I believe he welcomed the ic1ea of having Connor Brothers acaui.re ownership of that plant. But certainly I am not a\·~are of the layoff not:i ces referred to.

I w·ill certainly look into it and see ~-lhat reason if any they can give for it. }'fR. NFA'PY: A supplementary, }fr. Speaker. ""'R. SPE.AKET': A supplel"lentary. Mr. Speaker, is the hon. l"lin:ister aware that ~estons of f;anada mmec1 R. r. Paclr.:ers~ ~vhich Has Nelpack Fisheries in Isle anx Eorts, the previous cperator'l They also o'm Connors Brothers. So is this just l"lerely ~ marri:1p:e of convenience? 11ave they ns~:cd the

February 15, 197 7 'rape 301 IH-3 MR. NEARY: government for any assistance or any grants or any help in the ta!reover of th:Ls plant? vlhat is the purpose of just s'oJitchJng it fro~ one company to another that is o~vned by Westons? r 1"'R • l-1. CARTER: The hon . member is av.·are, I am sure, that B. C. Packers is a p r ivately O\-med cof!'lpany and the govern~ent ~,ra s not consulted j n the talreover nor could ve prevent such a takeover . But certajnly I believe he should be aware that Connor Brothers js the largest cannj _ng coropany in Eastern Canada .

It is m·med by ~-!estons but cert ainly they are more familiar ~.d.th the can ning of herring than "'hat B. C. Packers woul~ be . A.nd I am)like I say,quite pleased that that t akeover occurred .

February 15,1977 Tape 302 AH-1 HR. SPEAKER: Ron. Hemher for Terra Nova. HR. LUSH: I would lil:e to direct a question to the Minister of Hanpower and Industrial Relations. I vmnder if the minister is in a position to inform the House today as to what steps he has taken to bring this vildcat strike in Labrador City to a satisfactory solution? HR. SPEAKER: The han. Ninister of Hanpoucr and Industrial Relations. MR.

ROUSSEAU Hr. §peaker, no~I am not~ 0bviously ·Hhen anything might be going on, anything may be passed in confidence to me or through me, you know1 the House is not the place Hhere I can discuss it until such time as an appropriate statement can be made, and I certainly lvould like to do that;hut --I can assure the hon. member and assure the hon. House that every possible human step that can be taken is being taken and as soon as I hav_e something noteworthy to inform the House, I certainly lvill do do. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementcory. HR.

NEARY: Pou] d the minister tell the House if it is the mir.ist<>r 's intension to go to Labrador City on a fact finding tour to do an on the spot inspection of the activities that are going on in Labrador City '.vith a vie~,T to bringing both parties back to the bargaining table so that ~vork can resume and production can get back to nornal at Labrador City? Does the minister intend to go dmm there? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. ROUSSEAU: No, not at this point in time.

I have the president of the union, l!.ocal .5795,United Steel ~J orkers of America, here in tovm and I can carry on discussions vJith him :...here and if I need any information from either side they have been more than co-operative in giving it to me.And I can assure the han. member - as the hon. member '.Jas acting Hinistcr of Labour for one year , he knovlS w·hat the situation is- ,,!hat is going on betueen both parti.es

February 15,1977 Tape 302 AH-2 }ffi. ROUSSEAU: and anything that might be going on l-lith me is not in the public interest at this point in time to say. '~\Then the time comes for m'C' to say something,and in five years there bas been some ( involvement, it tal·_ es time ,but Hhen it is time to say something I certainly will give all the information that I can to tte House. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Windsor-Buchans. A.l\J RON • HEl-ffiER : Oh, oh! HR. SPEAKER: Pardon? AN HON. HEl'-fBER : Oh, oh! HR. SPEAK.ER: I did not hear the hon. gentleman. HR. FLIGHT: I V:ill yield. MR.

SPEA.T-CER : All right,I Hill hear the hon. gentleman for a supplementary. HR. LUSH: A further question to the Minister of }fanpower and Industrial Relations. I vmnder if he can inform the House l-Jhether or not he has been invited by either of the parties to make intercession on behalf of the Harkers, intercession to try and meet and bring the parties together? JlfR. ROUSSEAU: Oh, yes .I have a \-lire from the union,and I replied to that wire. It certainly asked me. to intercede,and I have done so.

But you knm-7, suffice it to say that one does not order one or the other side of the table ,Unless 'both sides ,.,ant to sit down and discuss it , it is rather difficult to force them to do so.

So certain pn~liminaries have to be looked at, and right nm.,r at the preliminary stage is \vhere \ole are "land eventually, I do not knoH ·what is going to happen"Jhut certainly the request of the union is 1 in the mind of the president and I hope through him the executive, they are well aware of the effortthat is heing made, and the company is too. i1nd if \.J'e can get both sides to assist us in ending this dispute, I would he a verv happy man and I am sure the people in Labrador City \.J"ould be very hauuy and I am sure that the T'Cople of tl1is nrovincP. Hould be very happy.

February 15,1977 Tape 302 AH-3 HR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for '.Jindsor-Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Hr. Speaker, this question for the ~~inister of Forestry. vlould the minister advise the Rouse in keeping vlith the department's stated intention of spraying for P.pruce bud~mrm· in ( designated areas on an experimental basis, Has 'his department or has government decided yet where those disignated areas are1 ~··lould the minister name the designated areas to be used on an experimental basis for spruce budworm spray? MR. SPEAKER: Hon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. HR. '!'l~YNARD: · ~fr.

Speaker, '"e have made some preliminary deci::lions on the areas to be sprayed and ~·Je are talk:i,ng to . the two paper companies about it at the present time. No,I will not indicate the areas to be sprayed. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. HR. FLIGHT: l-:ould the minister confirm to the House or deny that the two paper companies , Price Ne~.Jfoundland and Bowaters are putting great pressure on his department to do m·7ay with the experimental pro8ra~me and start a massive spray progran@e now? HR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister.

MR. }fAYN/\RD: I would deny that the paper companies)either Price or Bmvaters , or both are putting any pressure. on the governmnnt to carry out a massive spraying programme. I just finished a meeting at quarter to three vJith officials of both companies. They are •.dlling to co-operate every way with the programme that th13 government has outlined When the details of that programme are ready to be announced~! will be making an appropriate announcement to the House of Assembly.

February 15, 1977 Tape no 303 Page 1 - mw MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. NR. FLIGHT: Would the minister tell the House why he will not indicate the designated areas? MR. SPEA.XER: Order, please! The hon. member for Conception Bay South. MR. NOLA..~: Yes, a question for the hon. Hinister of Justice, and I realize that he may not have the answer immediately available. It is based on the fact that just recently a resident had an accident. In other words~he was sideswiped by another car and considerable damage was done.

The person who hit the car did not carry insurance. mlat ~rotection, if any, is there there either through no-fault insurance ,or through the Recovery Judgement Fund or any source that can assist such an individual? HR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. HR. HICI01A.c"i: Hr. Speaker, tl_1e hon. gentleman for Conception Bay South has been verv generous and kind to me when he suggested that he does not expect an answer at tl:).is time.

I will atteGpt to give an ans,;rer which - I underline - is \vithout prejudice. ~iy understanding is that Judgement Recovery Limited, which was the successor to the Unsatisfied Judgement Fund., anri is a fund that is administered by the Automobile Insurance Industry - it was given legislative sanction by this House, I would think, in the late 1950's - that that fund still remains in existence despite the fact that last year this House ap-proved a very major amendment to the High''"ay Traffic Act making it compulsory for all motorists to have automobile liability insurance.

I realize that it may not be of any consolation to the bon. gentleman's friend or constituent to know that the person with whom he was involved in a collision is in breach of the law '}and presumably it i1as been reported to the police ''ho in turn, I am sure, Hill initiate the ne.cess~ry prosecution under the HighHay Traffic Act. But the Judgement Recovery Fund is still in existence as far as I know, and I am quite certain that that 'vas not removed and that fund is administered bv the l::n:.J fjnn of r.urtis . n;o,.rP. ~ ') (' \, .) . f

February 15, 1977 Tape No. 303 Page 2 - mw HR. HI CK.,_'1.i\J.1': and Fagan, Hr. Ralph E. Fagan, Q.C. is the named administrator of that fund. I am sure that if the han. gentleman's constituent would approach Hr. Fagan, advise him of the facts,and if Hr. Fagan comes to the conclusion that there is liability he will negotiate a satisfactory settlement. If, on the other hand, there is question as to liability,which there so often is in motor vehicle accidents., then that does not necessarily establish liability although it creates a very strong suspicion thereof.

He will, I am quite certain, then say to the hon. gentleman, "You can proceed v.rith an action, 11 I wish I was back practicing law, I think that the proce .dure to be followed is that notice is served upon the Registrar of Notor Vehicles in the event that the person who has committed this hit and run offence has not been found. So I hope that satisfies the hon. gentleman. If anything I have said is not precisely and absolutely accurate I reserve the right to once again reply to that question by the hon. gentlenan for Conception Bay South (Hr. J. Nolan). MR.. SPEl>JZER: The hon. member for Port au Port. HR.

HODDER: A question for the hon. Minister of Transportation and Co~~unications. Has the city of St. John's contacted the Department of Transportation and Communications for emergency assistance in its present circu!llstances or in case of a snm..:r storm? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Hinister of Transportation and Communications. MR. HORGAN: Mr. Speaker, to the best of my knowledge there has been no contact nade. This morning I was at a Cabinet all morning, but to the best of my knowledge r.one of the officials in the department were contacted by the Mayor or any official of the St.

John's City Council ~..:rith regards to offering assistance. And if they did,of course ~.;e would 1:-.ave to give serious consideration to it, looking at the fact that we would be looking at breaking a strike situation which I understand is a quite legal . . SJ.LUaL~on J..n ::>L • ..JOnn·s. s ·in

February 15, 1977 Page 3 - tm.1 MR . SPEAKER: The hon . mer.~ber for LaPoile follm.Jed by tile hon . member for Trinity - Bay de Verde and Terra Nova. NR. :\I:AJtY: 11r. Speaker, I would like to ask the Hinister of Justice, ~ihout a~y reference at all to the cases presently before t he court , without any reference, would the minister indicate to the House just what is happening no·.v in connection Hith the I investigations of frau~ in relation to the gear replacement scandal ? And I am talking about ongoing investigations , investi gations that are prese.:.tly going on . l·n10 is involved?

The RCr:P, the CID, ho'"' many represent atives of the Ne,vfoundland Constabulary , the CID and the RC>D? are involved currently in t hese investigations? ,, ' 1 I ) 'i

February 15, 1977 Tape No. 304 NM - 1 MR. SPEAYER: The bon. Minister of Justice. '~-1R. HICKY'A~: Mr. Speaker, the hen. gentleman from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) vlill appreciate that I have to be aw·fully careful in ans>vering that kind of question so as not to prejudice the rights of any person presently being investigated or who may be investigated. I have forgotten the exact number of members of the RCNP l<lho are involved almost on a continuing basis but I did give this information to'this hon. House last year. Suffice it to say that there are a fair number.

The Newfoundland Constabulary have been involved in investigating some of the cases. I do not believe they are actively involved in any new investigations) but rather they May and I knov7 they have been involved in some that have not yet been quite concluded. A.~ liON. ~EMBF:R: Hr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: -Is this a supfllementary? AN liON. HF.:MBER: No,it is not. HR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde. MR. ROTrffi: Mr. Speaker, I lvould like to direct a question to the ~inister of Education, Sir.

In view of the fact that the payment of $1,800 \vas made for services provided to a public relations firm in resuect of these miserable school taxes, could the minister indicate, Sir, whether or not public tenders were called?: How many bids were submitted? Rather than get into su~plementaries, Sir, I will just state the questions off if I may. ~{ere public tenders called? How many bids were submitted? "t\That ,,ras the name of the PR firm that sot the contract, and what services \·rere provided? "1>ffi.. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Education. HR. T10USE: }fr.

Speaker, the firm '"as a public relations firm, I think it \vas Bonnell. It Has a firm. T do not knm-1 if there ,,rere ft-"~-~~·~ ft~11-~ T ~- .... t. .. ...t-1 .... 'L. .... --- T ... t,.• .. ,_ .r ._ -~~----.__._, _____ ....,._ . ... ·-· - -··-··· ner:otiated. It w.1-s for a scrv~_ce to the Provincial Association of \ > I •) t) . t ' ..

February 15, 1977 Tape No. 304 HR. HOUSE: School Tax ~uthorites to do some public relations in school taxes. I believe it is the time they were setting up the St. John's Authority. The monies were voted of course in the operations of schools and our staff thought at that particular time that since this was a service to school boards it was the place to put it. And the Auditor General of course felt it should have been in administration. But I do not think there were, I am just speaking off the cuff nmv, I know the firm, and I know the amount is there but I do not believe there were tenders called. NR. RO\.JE: Hr.

Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: I Hill allmv one supplementary. The han. gentlel!l.an did in fact have quite a number of questions in the first one. So I will limit the supplementaries now to one. 1-ffi.. ROHF.: I do have a supplementary. HR. SPIAKER: Yes. !-IR. ROW~ : !1r. Speaker, the minister quite nicely answered the question I did not ask but did not answer the question I did ask. Could the minister indicate the nature of negotiations that ~-.Tent on before the contract \vas awarded if public .I tenders were not called~ Hhat was the nature of the negotiations~ vlere invitations put out or 'i.rhat? t·1R. HOUSE: Mr.

Speaker, I will take that under advisement. MR. SPEAKER: I previously indicated I \vould recognize the hon. member for Terra ~ova, follmved by the han. member for Ferryland. !'ffi.. LUSH: Mr. Speaker~ I would like to direct this question to the han. Minister of Social Services. With resp ect to the job creation programme that \vas his departrrient 's allocation, I wonder if the minister is in a position to inform the House, as to ivhat standards and what conditions '"ere a:,.rJ ied in grant in?, these --..... ..:,...,-:-. ..... ,..... .... _ ~· ..... '""'.J ..__ .._....... . .. ._ <o.J '!R.

HHITE: ,_ 1- .... ... .. .--..: ..... , .,... ..... ".....,.........,. •,......; """ ,... roo? Resid~s nartisanshin. R ' ,, l. 'f ,)

February-15, 1977 Tap~ ~o. 304 11.~1 - 3 ~rn.. SPEAKER: The bon. Hinis ter of Social Services. ~-m.. BRETT: Mr. Speaker, I did not get the qnestion. Hould you mine repeating that please? ) HR. LUSH: It was respecting tl-J.e job creation prograrnne as allocated recently by the han. minister's department and the question ~.;as .,I wonder if the minister could inform the House as to 'what standards or what conditions 'vere annlied in granting these projects to various communites? SO~U:: HON. HE"!-illERS : Hear! Hear! }!R. SPEAKER: The hon. Hinister of Social Services. HR. BRETT: ~r.

Speaker, that information was tabled in the House yesterday. SOME RON. MF.HBERS: Oh,! Oh! S0HE HON. ~~~7f'lS: Hear! Hear! ~ffi. SPF.A.KER: The hon. member for Ferryland. HR. 0 I BRIEN: Thank you, Hr. Speaker. I would like to ask the bon. Hinister of Fisheries a question. It is do >vith the joint venture. ~fhat I am thinking about in particular, Sir, is there is going to be 2,400 tens of fillet brought into Newfoundland~ I would assume as well there is ~oing to be about 5,000 tons of fish offal which represents ( l , ' ~~ 'i t

Feburary 15, 1977 Ta'Pe No. 305 W.1 - 1 HR. 0 'BI'.IEN: somewhere in the vicinity of $400,000 \vorth of fish meal and I am wondering if the companies, the Newfoundland companies that are involved in the joint venture,are going to get any 'Piece of that action? Or is the Newfoundland Government going to get it? Or is it going to be a gift to the 'i.Jest Germans? MR. SPEPu.'!(ER: The hon. }1inister of Fisheries. HR. 1-7. CARTER: Hr. Speaker, there will be altogether 6,000 tons of fish harvested ,.,ith 2,400 tons landed.

The offal,I am afraid,-,,Tould not last long enough to be brought ashore to the processing and the fish meal plants. MR. 0 I BRIEN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary? }ffi. O'BRIEN': T Yes. I am not sure if the minister is aware or not, and I am not totally sure, but on most of th~se Hest German factory ships, '"hich I believe H is going to be a factory ship that is coming here, they have meal plants on them. They have meal ulants and filleting plants, the' whole thing, and I would assume they are going to make meal out of this offal. :MR. SPEAYJ:R: The hon. ¥inister of Fisheries. MR. t~.

CARTER: I am not sure, !v!r. Speaker. ~aybe that is the case. PREMIER MOORES: Yes~I would say. HR. W. CARTER: Probably it is right. They will. MR. SPEAKER: One additional supplementary. MR. O'BRIEN: I wonder as \vell if the minister could give me any indication as to \vpat by-catch those trav.'lers are going to be allowed to take, and is that going to be brouRht into ~Je,.,foundlancl as well or is it going to stav aboard ship and end un in Hcst Germany or somewhere else? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. that time in the yenr for a directed fishery,as is the case, 0 , r.: l) 'l • )

February 15, 1977 Tape No. 305 NM - 2 MR. H. CARTER: •.;ill not get any worthwhile by-catch. In other areas,yes,but not in the Northern areas v7here these ships '"ill be fishing. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Baie Verte - liThi te Bay. This will be the last question. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Health~and by way of a brief prea."llble the minister will recall that he introduc~d legislation to the House last year to govern the a.ctivities of ot~tometrists.

I wonder if the minister could tell the House whether there was any prior consultation \-lith that group before the legislation was introduced? NR. SPKAJG::R: The hen. Hinister of Health. MR. H. COLLINS: Hr. Speaker, there is ab-1ays consultation with ,any group if legislation is brought into .the House. MR. RIDEOUT: A supplementary. HR. SPEAKER: The thirty minutes is up. HR. RIDEOUT: Well,ca!l I just say I would like to debate it at tomorrm,;r eveniP-g 's Late Show? }fR. SPEAKER: Yes. ORDERS OF THF. DAY: HR. SPEAJ<:ER: Order 1, the adjourned debate on the sub-amendment. The hon. member for LaVoile. SG!-tE HON.

ME!'-ffiFRS : Hear! Hear! HR. 1--.'EARY: Hr. Sneaker, I would just like to repeat the sub-amendment for the benefit of members who may not have been in the House in the last few days since the sub-amendment was moved; "and the House regrets that Hhich hath been done hath been done poorly and that \·Jhich hath not been done hath brought sorrm-1 to every corner of this land,'' according to St. Stenhen. Mr. Speaker, when the I1ousc rose at six o'clocl: yesterday ~ . -even1ng 1 1;,;ras a ea1.1.ng w:t.cn Ll1e lllaLLel O.L CIJUV<;;,Y<tUL.J..Uf',., O.J...l.U ..L \..LU J.LU "'-

February 15, 1977 Taoe No . 305 !P.-f - 3 MR . NEARY : t>Tish, Sir , to rehash the fctJ remarks that I made yesterday, Sir , in connection t-lith this very important matter but just let me state briefly, Sir , in order to revie\ol the situation. Mr . Speaker, consumers in this Province as "'ell as in other parts of Canada are becominR more conscious and more enlightened and better infor.ned as to their rights . And , Mr. Speaker, con trary to popular belief it is legal for oeople in this Province to fill out their o\om conv eyance forms . It is l egal,cont rary to popular belief . Heretofore , Hr .

Speaker, I sulmit that a lot of people thought Hhen they t-lere buy ing a home, t.;hethe r it is for the first time~ or buying or sellinn homes , that it is not , Sir, essential to get a lawyer to do you r conv eyance , to transfer the home from the builder or transfer the home fro m one ~wner to the purchase r . (' I ,., t ) •t (

February 15, 1977 Tape 306 IB-1 }P.. KEARY: Nr. Speaker, I will prove to the hon. gentlemen just how foolish it is. Hr. Speaker, it is not necessary for peopie buying homes to employ the services of a law--yer, althour,h it is a natural instinct, Sir, for people to do that. They have a natural inclination to do it. And I would submit, Sir, that this is out of ignorance of what is involved in buying and selling a home that people naturally do this. Of course, Sir, the lm.Jyers have the people brainwashed into think:inp: that it is necessary to get a la"?yer.

The ordinary layman, Sir, thinks that it is necessary to use a solicitor for his conveyancing so that it will be done properly,when in actual fact, Sir, as I indicated to the House yesterday.,that anybody vmo could fill out an income tax form, anybody who can fill out an application for a passport, anybody who can read a road map, anybody who can buy a mobile ho111e ,,7hich is a pretty hefty investment and sign the documents, anybody who can buy a coloured television set on the installment plan,can in actual fact, Sir, oo his O't\"ll conveyancing. ~ow a lot of people are reluctant to do it because they are brainwashed by the system.

I say,. 1·~r. Speaker, that it is high time to explode this myth about it being compulsory and essential and necessary to get a la>·ryer to transfer a home from one person to another. It j s not a coTl'.plicated procedure, Mr. Speaker. The fact of the matter is, Sir, lJiithout attempting to oversimpJ tfy the matter or the racl~et that is carried on, that conveyancing, ~fr. Speaker, is not complicatec:l, it is not difficult and it can be done by any layman v:ho v:HJ. just tal<:e the t iiTle to do so.

The point that I am trying to '!'lake here, }fr, Speaker, is that my hon. friend, the Pin:ister of ronsumer Affairs vho is not a la'tl"')"er, Hho is not oblj gated in any ,,Tay, shape or form to the bar society or to the Jegal professjon, my hon. frlend if he ''7ere to des5.p-n a form, vmrk out a form, a standard. form anc ha'Fe it over in the ::JepartTDent of Consul'1er Affairs and a fe'v pamphlets and a handbook,that any reasonably jntellirent person, Sir, could then ]col: after his o~~ convenancjng. As I started to say yesteroay, Sir, vhen

February 15, 1977 Tape 306 IP·-2 !-'R. NEJ\T'Y: the House rose, that I knovr that the la,ryers in this han. House are going to get up and try to shoot me do~~. They are going to try to get up and justify the high legal fees that they charge, the hir,hest in Canacla~I might submit to the House. The legal fees charged for real estate transactions in this Province are the highest in the whole of Canaca.

And they are so high, Sir, that on one occasion when I beca.l"e embroiled in a controversy wj_th the la,,ryers and took them on head on that resultj_ng from that controversy a one man royal commission '"as established to look into the high cost of housing in this Province. 1'-'r. Leonard Kostoszek, a gentleman vrho was familar with this procecure,~as brought in from Ontario and did a study into this whole matter'>including legal fees,and confirmed, }fr. Speaker, what I had been sayinp, all along; that legal fees were the highest for real estate transactions here in this Province.

Is it any wonder then, Sir, that vrhen we hear the la~ryers in this hon. Pause on the government side standing in their places to try to justify their involvelT'ent in the conveyancing, th,at they '\<Jill use some of the following ar~uments, Sir. And I am going to skip over the ones that I read yesterday. And I am prepared to table this for the information of the hon. Yinister of Justice ~hose

February 15, 1977 Tape 307 PK- 1 Mr. Nea ry: name is on a door of a law firm downtown, and I presume who doe~ not share, the minister does not share in the revenue of the profits · going into that law firm. Well, Mr. Speaker, this is something that I also strongly object to, Sir, members of this House having their names on the doors of the law firms with which they were associated before they became members of this House. I think, Sir, that that is habit that should be abolished. I do not think they should be allmved to leave their names on the doors of the law firms downtown. Why do they leave them there?

What is the purpose of it? What is the purpose of it, Sir? Can the Minister of J·ustice tell me why? MR. MURPHY: His career as a politician is not guaranteed. HR. NEARY: His career as a politician is not guaranteed! Well that is for sure. We saw that in the last election - SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: - when the minister almost got defeated by a lowly denturist.down in Garnish. But why, Sir? \,fhy? MR. ROUSSEAU: You almost got defeated on Bell Island. HR. NEARY: Pardon? NR. ROUSSEAU: Imagine if th~t had been LaPoile. The last ele~tion does not count. MR. NEARY: The last remark does not count. MR.

ROUSSEAU: No, I said the last election. MR. NEARY: The last election does not count, the next one will count. The next one will count and they will all be wiped out, Sir. The whole bon. crowd. And they will be t.riped out for one of the reasons we saw this afternoon when the member for St. Barbe (Mr. Maynard) refused to stand in his place in· this bon. House and support a petition that was presented on behalf of 350 of the bon. member's constituents. You talk about arrogance, Sir. Why.that is political suicide.

February 15, 1977 Tape 307 PK - 2 Mr. Neary: I called the hon. minister's office this· morning. Unfortunately I did not get the minister, the member himself, but I had my secretary tell the minister's secretary, because the minister was suppose to be gone to Cabinet, that I was going to ,. present a petition in the House this afternoon, gave the minister ample warning, and as a matter of courtesy, Sir, common decency~ the minister should have supported that petition on behalf of 350 of the member's constituents who are fighting for a very simple right, and that is to snare rabbits in the Gras Marne National Park.

Not because they are going to die after seven years, Sir, but because they need them for food. And that is why, Sir, that administration will be abolished after the next election,in case the hon. Hinister of Manpower is interested. That is why, Sir, they will be knocked down like ten pins after the next election,because of their arrogance. Most of the ministers, Sir, as I indicated yesterday,are just useless hulks, and obviously the people in St.

Barbe have lost faith, have lost confidence in their member, the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture, a useless, honourable, big lump, too arrog~mt to get up and support a petition presented on behalf of 350 of the hon. member's constituents. How many votes did he win by? AN HON. MEMBER: Seventy-five votes. MR. NEARY: Seventy-five votes. AN RON. }ffiMBER: He last that today. MR. NEARY: I beg your pardon? AN RON, MEMBER: He lost that today. ~ MR. NEARY: Three hundred and fifty there today that the hon. minister lost.

And I think about another 1,100 or 1,200 in a petition I presented a couple of weeks ago on behalf of the member's constituents. Pure arrogance, Sir, and contempt for the ordinary people of this Province.

February 15, 1977 Tape 307 PK - 3 Mr . Neary : But, Mr. Speaker , I am drifting aHay nm.;r from the point that I '~as making here of ho\'1 the lawyers will counter the arguments that I am putting forward for people for doing their own conveyancing . And let the message go out from this hon. \. House , Sir , l et it go out now loud and clear t hat it is not necessary to' have a lawyer, although many people may still elect to do so and lash out the $700 cr $800 or $900 or $1 , 200 or $1 , 500 , they may still elect to do so .

February 15, 1977 Tape No. 308 NH - 1 ~. !\TEARY: But I think it is incumbent upon members of this House and those of us who speak for the ordinary people to let them knov.1 that it is their right if they so desire and they are not too lazy and they have the initiative, it is their right to fill out their own conveyancing form and they do not have to go to a solicitor. But here are some of the arguments we will get. I will skip over; "There are 101 things which can go wrong." That is one of the arguments the lawyers will use.

And this gentleman \vho wrote the book that I have in front of me, thanks to the han. member for ~villingate (Mr. Smallwood~ - and I am going to return it to the han. gentleman v.7hen I am ffnished my fe>v remarks on the lawyers. It was most helpful indeed. I believe that the han. member is a bad accountant but a good book keeper. HR. NEARY: A bad accountant but a good book keeper. ~fR. S ~· !ALLHOOD: No. I do not vant the member to be a good book keeper. XR. NEARY: A bad accountant but not a good - Hould the hon. gentleman repeat , that again? 'ffi.. S' !ALU OD : It is only a joke. ~fR.

NEARY: '.Jell, Sir, I am a good book keeper,yes. I have not made any notations. Look,the han. gentleman can see that I have my little nieces of paper here. I do not even hnve any bookmarks,Your Honour. But I am going to pass it back to the han. gentleman. I found it to be a very, very interesting book by Michael Joseph, ent:! tled The Conveyancing Fraud,. AN HON. !-ff:MBER: Table it. ~{R. ~mARY: I cannot table the book. I am ~oin?- to table what I am Slnin~ to read from. I only have to ree.d \·!hat I am reading from. J..nd I am not reading A'J HO~. ~-fE'~BFT!_ : You are rending from the hook.

M~ c;_ T nm ""~ ­- > The Convt? · <>.ncin ~ fraud i.s the title of the book. The book

February 15, 1977 Tape No. 3()8 NH - 2 ~fR.. '\TEARY: is closed, look closed. Michael Joseph, fir, got his la111 degree from Cambridge and worked fifteen years - AN RON. HHffiER: You will have to take the cover off. T-.fR. ~TEARY: The gentleman worked fifteen years vJith lawyers-, 1vi th solicitors, doing conve yancing. So the gentleman should know 1Y'hat he is talking about. You Honour, the Speaker of this House graduated from the same university as Hr. ~1ichael Joseph, Cambridge University. And so therefore I would assume, Sir, that this will add a great deal of credibility to my argument that, Mr.

Speaker, _that I am ~uoting an authority here. It is not just hearsay. It is not Neary versus the lawyers. It is not a vendetta. Mr. Speaker, it is an actual fact backed up by statistics infoTITlation. I 1.rould recommend the book to anybody. MR. HICKEY: Central Mortgage and Housing ,,rill find you one. MR. NEARY: Oh well I am coming to it. Hy hon. friend has raised a very interesting point, Sir, that Central Mortgage and Housing will insist that you have a lawyer. As a matter of fact MR. HICKEY: And a title. ~ffi. NEARY: As a matter of fact they have - :HR. HICKEY: Political. MR.

NEARY: Ye~, they -v1ill have a list of political hacks, appointees. They "t.Yill tell you what lm.yyer you have to take. That \olill show you, Sir, how far the racket has advanced. And that just did not ~nly happen under this administration. 'ffi.. HICKEY : That is not the lawyers. !-ffi.. NEARY: No, Sir, that is the government. The government should have better sense because, Hr. Speaker - NR. T1ICKF.Y: Federal government. fallen into the trap and they are brain-v7ashec1. m1en a person (1' ' c. .l 't

February 15, 1977 Tape No. 308 }~. NEARY: goes to a bank for a loan to buy his house, the bank manager - if you told the bank manager that you t-Jere goine to do your ovm conveyancing he would have a st rake. He ~muld fall off the chair. He would say you are mad. "You have got to get a lawyer. He insist you get a la"ryer. Othenrise you do not get the loan. •• That is a form of blackmail. And CMHC does the same thing. Does my han. friend realize that? They have a list of lawyers over there that have been submitted by a political party, by the government in power. MR. • I-II C KEY : The federal government. !'lR.

NEARY: The federal government. A lot of the names, I would not be a bit surprised but my hon. - Pu"'l HON. HEI'lBER: N a'1le one. ~IR. m;;ARY: Yes, the hon. former member for Placentia East's na.I'"'e was on that list. It was nut there '>vhen he was a Liberal, ,,•hen the han. gentleman \vas a Liberal tanrl they for8ot to take it off \vhen he ·Has a turncoat. A."'i HON. MEHBE'R : Did they take it off? !-n:t. ~"F.ARY : I do not knm-1 if it is off yet. But it really does not make any difference. The principle is wronf,, Sir. The principle is wrong.

CMliC should say to their clients, to their customers, "Look,you do not have to get a la'>vyer if you do not want to. You can do your mm conveyancing." ~ffi. HICKEY: Hhat about title? HR. NEARY: '\'hat about title? Title. Title. Hmv do you get title? Row do you get title? Hr. Speaker, my hon. friend has a real estate company, The han. gentleman is partners with the great hockey players in this Province, the two gentlemen ,,•ho went up to the NIIL, came back do,,'ll how. MR. F.ICKF.Y: Be careful. Do not give me any publicity now. ·~.

NEARY: And are noH in the minor le3r,ue with the han. ~ent1eman, T TT'I"'...,,.., t-'h,-,., ...... " .. , -1 ~ ..... ,....,..,. ..... ,...,_ ·- -- / ·-·--

February 15, 1977 Tape 309 IB-1 YR. Nr f..T'Y : a company I believe called Score, is it? Score, I mean they could not get away from hockey. They even hac. to use the name Score. Hell, Sir, the han. gentleman should kno'l-7 how you get title. But the mortgage co~panies wjll accept. ,r l'ffi.. NEARY: But the mortgage companies \>.Till accept. The mortgage companies are just as bac1_ as the banks by the ,..ray. They also insist that you have a la~·ryer. 1-fR. 't<IT;RPHY: Anybody who has a good job unless they are a minister. :t-'F .• NEAPY: Yes there are a lot of good people in the \ororld.

As a matter of fact ninety per cent of the ordinary people of this Province are good people. But since my hon. friend r-ot his sw5mming pool around him and has started to hobnob noH in the cocktail circle and got his big fat salary, poor man's champagne does not even come in his ~ind anymore. There are good people arouncl, the people that my hon. friend abandoned, ninety per cent of the people of this ProviPce \vho are ordinary people. They are pretty ?-ood people but they do not know their rights \•-'hen it comes to conveyancing.

And my h?n. friend should be ashaTPec'l to ask that ouestion, ani1 the han. gentlel"'_an Fho is not a la~ryer, not obligated to the laPyers, ~.Tho I hope is not completely S'I-Jept m·~ay with all this glamour and excitment of beinp. a minister and hoh.nohing arouncl with the Premier and travelling off here and there on 'dld goose cP.ases and so forth, I hope that minister "rill once in a ~.mile think about the little fellov!

C.own on Flmv-er Hill and get a few pamphlets in the minister's office, and get a fe,.,. booklets and get a form made out that peopJe can come in and pick up and do their oHn conveyancing. }fr. Speaker, here are some of the arguments. Of course in the majority of cases,tbe Javryers v-rill argue, :i_n a kind of an offhanded \.Jay to try to confuse you, to put you on the defensive, to frighten you - of course in the majority of cases everything is straightfonvard. But, tbev go on to ace,, but once in a vTh:lle, vou knm,T, once in every 100 or so cases soT"et1dnf could go 'l·:ronr..

Conveyancing reC]uires JlO spec:ial C1Ualifications most of the la\,)'"ers

February 15, 1977 Tape 309 IB-2 }'fl'l. NEAT'Y: will admit. And out comes son>e problem '1-rhich probably presents itself every twenty years or so in a solicitor's career. Hen~ are some. They 'to-Till say, t..rhen a man or a woman is spending so much money out of his life's savings embarking on the largest commercial transacUon of his life, signing a mortgage ~·:hich will take him a third of his life to repay, he needs professional advice highly trained experts. Highly trained experts! Hhy, }fr. Speaker, do you know \>rho actually does the most of the conveyancing that is done?

They are oone by the secretaries ?nd they are done now by clerks. The lawyers now are cornple!ely boreo . ~·lith it so they hire clerks nm·r, office managers Hho have no training. The secretary types it up. 1-rr. Speaker, I am not allo"red to call the bon. gentleman a big nincompoop 1 it is unparliamentary, Sir, so I a~ not going to do it and Your Honour tvill not have to ask me to retract it. If I could, Sir, I would and I tvould call the hon. gentleiPan worse than that. If the bon. gentleman only knew ";hat hj s colJ eagnes are saying about him. No Honder the poor old feJ lm·r is paranoid.

You will see the hon. meT!'ber tomorrm,T or the next day and the hon. gentleman sitting in the corner there "Jith the specs, you ";·dll see these tHo hon. gentleT!Ien get up tonorrm..T or the next day and stick darts into the administrat:lon. Hell the people of this Province are getting wise to them. It is all a publicity stunt. That is all it is.

If bon. gentlemen 'tvere sincere in their convictions and were prepared to do away 1.rith patrona~e and circumventing the Public Tendering Act of this Province and the graft and the patronage and the corruption that goes on, the bon. gentlemen Hould not be sitting on that sice of the House. W • }.flTP.PHY: Rather than sit next to you, we will stay here. }11' .. NEAr.Y: I will 1Je around, Hr. Speaker, a long time when the hon. gentleman Hill be gone. Well, ~r. Speaker, I am not go:lng to be siC.etrackea hy the hon. gentleman. R r . ., l . 'l ' )

February 15,1977 Tape 310 AH-1 MR. NEARY: this is what the solicitors \vill say when they are trying to justify- Y>'hen the Minister of Justicet t)~e spokesman for the la\vyers> ':7hen the minister gets on his feet, he vd_ll be telling us,and the member for Kilbride,and the member for St. John's East and all the other la,vyers on the government side say "Sure, sure we agree with the hon. member for T,aPoile Sure he can go ahead and do it himself, but he has to have a trained ex~ert, a specialist , a qualified solicitor to advise him on all stages of the transaction.

To make sure that he gets what he is paying for, protect his interest, Make sure he does not make a ass of himself. 0 This is '"hat they say "Sure boy, go ahead and do it but do not make an ass of yourself': this is in the book, not "G unparliamentary) Your Honour. o ahead and do it boy, yoc knm,,, sure, help yourself but you will be back to me next week on your . b II hands and knees to get me to do the JO • It is all meant, Sir, to create confusion in the persons mind, to make him fearful of doing his own conveyancing because he nay make a mistake.

And then they say we are a professional hody which is subject to the self-imnosed discipline of the :t.aw Society which insists on the highest stanrlards being observen by the profession othenvise any chairman could set himself up • So these are the highest standards being observed by the profession. Hell , ~fr. Speaker, we smo1 some of these high standards that are observed by t 1:is profession that we have had here in Nevfoundland over the past few years. And \ve are experts they say, ,,,e are specialists, ·He passed examinations. ~!r.

Speaker, they have passed examinations, they have gone off for five or six or seven years to law school and they come back and they spend all their time dm·mto'm in their offices involved in real estate transactions and conveyancing. Do you have to spend seven years in la>ol school for that? Could you not learn that in a couple of 'iveeks over here at the College

February 15,1.977 Tape 310 AH-2 HR. NF:i\RY: of Trades and Technology , if they ran a course? If the university Extension Department ran a course to show people hm.; to do their own conveyancing , they probably \vould be cued up, they would have the biggest registration than any course ever had in this province. I have had more lawyers in the last three years, Sir, than you could shake a stick at , and I must say they have done a good job for me but, Sir, most lawyers, I would say 99 per cent of the lmvyers in this province do not know the least thing, they do not knov7 anything about criminal lav7. They do not.

Ur. Speaker, if Your Honour got in trouble,and I hope Your Honour does not , but if Your Honour got in trouble, ran afoul of the law, and Yo~r Honour needed a crimin